Nuke the Aswan Dam and flush the toilet. Please.

Can we stop giving them our tax money now, please?

Yes ladies and gentelmen, $2 billions of you Tax money at work. Maybe a brief end to our aid to Egypt would moderate their tone.

OT - AP reports Israel has taken over Church of Nativity, which is "Christianity's holiest shrine and prevents Christians from worshipping."

News to the world.....it is NOT a HOLY shrine at all to us! The way the AP words it, they are trying to incite people against Israel. I have been to the Church of the Nativity in Bethleehem in 1996 and it is a dirty place. Keep it as a museum, yes...but mainstream media stop using it as a point of contension.

They are beneath contempt. As a father of a son the same age as this poor child, I cannot express my sorrow for him and his parents as well as my hatred for these murderes and their cheerleaders.

Their reference to this murder as an "operation" is reminiscent of the way the Nazis used to discuss the number of inmates "processed" in the death camps per day.
Yet, of course, AP reports today about how "Israeli Army Kiil Palestinian Boy."

The J-POst reports that seized documents prove that the Cairo conference was, of course, an attempt for Hamas to bond with the Egyptians for the day when Israel finially destroys the PA

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Please, everyone, looby your politicans and argue that Egypt should be cut off at the knees.
No, everyone will still be busy about

...what is really revolting is this pervasive hysterical demonization, which is so obsenely removed from any reality and reason.....and has assumed a life of its own

and the total lack of reaction or outrage, by the 'civilized' world

#3 That $2 billion would be better used supporting LGF and IDF.

This is really sick. "Eleven Israeli terrorists". This is beneath comment. What I don't understand is that this a government paper. Is anyone in our government aware of the hate-mongering of our beneficiary? Why don't they talk about it? Why don't they do something about it? Why isn't anyone talking about this shit besides MEMRI and Charles and a few bloggers? This is preparation for the next Holocaust, for christ's sake.

With "allies" like these, who needs enemies?

The "parking lot" option is looking better and better every time I see something like this. How do you deal on a rational level with this sort of MADNESS? I say paint Ilan's name on the 'steamroller'.

"If we can control a nation's media, we won't need armies."--Joseph Goebels, Adolf Hilter's minister of propaganda.

#10 We can pave it after we flush it.

I believe that according to it's treaty with Israel, Egypt must desist from incitement and support of violence agaionst the jewish state. That's why the Sinai was returned to them.

Something tangible was given to the egyptians in return for words from the arab world seem valueless, the Sinai should by rights return to Israel.

If this keeps up, the Sinai will be in Israeli hands within 10 years.

Would it be effective if we can print and mail the article to our elected representatives?

Make it in RED INK - CUT OFF $2 BILLION to Egypt!

And use the savings to pay for Senior Citizens prescrption plan ;-)

Win-win!

JG

Truely a civilization (Arab) lost.

People, people, please. We just have to try to understand them better. On the surface, it may look like they are a bunch of racist bloodthirsty bigots, that can't see past their own hate, to the reality of the murder they are supporting in the name of 'protecting muslims'.

In reality, they are but simple victims of the Zionist, and American Republican conspiracies to make them look like backwards inbred inferior monkeys. You've got to be careful with these tricky jews. They are very good at making the Islamists look as though they look bad.

Here's an excellent Israeli manifesto.

(i need spell check)

Ploome:

The longer Israel refrains from taking full, military countermeasures against the Pals, (READ: war) the more momentum this kind of sick, deranged, perverted interpretation of events will achieve-- not just in Egypt but around the world. Netanyahu said in a speech a few months ago that Israel must act decisively against terrorism to convince the world of the certitude of its moral position.

By delaying overwhelming action, Israel only feeds the myth that it is an "oppressor" holding the entire Palestinian population "captive" and refusing to grant them "independence".

As I have repeated on this board ad nauseam, Israel cannot win a war of attrition. There are 30 fewer Israelis alive since the last time I wrote those words.

Hey, we can't pave Egypt. There's a lot of valuable artifacts there dating from when there were real civilizations there -- you know, the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and early Christians.

It is inconceivable that the ruling gang in Tel-Aviv will succeed

the above statement is really enough to show that this article will not be constrained by reality. Whether the authors of this article like it or not, the Israeli government is located in Jerusalem.

Instead of complaining about the fact that the government is in Jerusalem, they'd rather imagine, or have their readers imagine, that it is in Tel-Aviv even though everybody knows perfectly well where the Knesset is! This is wishfull thinking taken to the extreme.

Don't like the fact that Sharon is in Jerusalem? Write an article which puts him in Tel-Aviv! Don't like the fact that Palestinians are bloody murderous criminals? Write an article which makes them martyrs! Don't like the fact that children were murdered on the bus? Write an article which makes them terrorists!

Primitive is not the word..

Henry S:

You are correct, sir.

On the following day (November 23, 2002) the Al-Gumhuriyya editor Sameer Ragab took up the subject again: "On the one-hundredth, perhaps the one-thousandth time, we ask: 'Will reoccupation of the Palestinian areas by Israel and the imposition of curfews, and the destruction of homes – Will all this stop martyrdom operations or bring an end to what they call terrorism?'"

The answer to the good editor is that he is correct. The Israeli actions he describes are only partially effective.

Reading between the lines, the good editor is telling us that more forceful measures are required.

The "11 Israeli terrorists" remark possibly represents a new low. (I say "possibly", because the competition for that title is so fierce.) Good work, Charles, in promptly putting a face on the 9-year old "terrorist" that the islamofascists bravely vanquished. Sickening.

Then again, I guess the concept of child terrorists doesn't seem so strange to them, since their cause celebre works so hard to produce them: scroll down on the LGF weblog to "Lost Children".

In the past I've mentioned that this egyptian propaganda violates the current peace agreement. There were other blatant violations, e.g. tunnels, for smuggling of arms, from Egypt to Gaza strip that originated in egyptian army bases, or others that were conveniently overlooked by egyptian authorities.
What puzzles me is that we don't hear about it in neither israeli (some), american or european press.

The 2 billion dollar annual check to Egypt evolved out of Camp David.....it was not intended to be an enternal entitlement, but has evolved that way.

We should cut it in half, for starters. We are only putting 500 million into Afghanistan rebuilding, and not only is the need for more there.....but we have the prospect of Iraq rebuilding, N Korea rebuilding later.

In America, for all citizens....legislation passed by Clinton and Congress establishes a limit on welfare. We no longer accord out citizens the right to be lifetime Welfare Queens.....so why Egypt.

But...for that matter, why Israel?

US subsidies to Israel - direct, private charities, and the unique - special only to Israel - tax breaks to contributors, amount to a 5 billion welfare check. Like Egypt.....the presumption is that it is an enternal obligation of the US taxpayer.

No. Like with the moneybags dropped off with Egypt every year, no law forces the US to spend half it's foreign aid budget on two ME countries. Good lobbyists and special interest groups (ethnic, weapons-sellers) keep the dollars flowing.

So, if we end Egyptian welfare or cut it back....because they foster hate speech...........taxpayers ought to also question their "obligations" to Israel - to provide subsidies for Settlements in a foreign country that US citizens can't live in unless they are of a specific faith, underwriting health care and social services benefits in a foreign land when their own government doesn't give those benefits to US citizens......plus the "free weapons" that their dollars provide that target Americans for criticism from other foreign governments.

Israel is a well-off country, and it has the resources of a wealthy overseas community of supporters to draw on. At some point, like with eligibility limits US citizens are under, the welfare has to stop. Welfare to Egypt is like sending 2 billion to Portugal so it won't attack Spain each year. A 5 billion welfare transfer to Israel is like sending 5 billion to Switzerland to prop up their social services to Swiss citizens and to buy nifty US weapons.

ran - your analogy is totally off mark and your constant flogging of the settlements is really really tiring, but as a strong supporter of israel i do agree that the US should start cutting off aid to ALL countries. i think egypt should be completely cut off to begin with however. also, while i believe israel should be weened off of our aid, the fact is most of the aid we give to israel is used on american products, so in a lot of ways it's money that is pumped by proxy into our economy.

If this is a terrorist where is his hood?
No good terrorist goes unhooded

Where is the videotape of his mother professing her trust in Zionism as a means of political change?
Did the family get any money from Saudi Arabia?

Don't like the fact that Sharon is in Jerusalem? Write an article which puts him in Tel-Aviv!

BTW, that's exactly what the official Soviet press used to do - and what Russian Jew-haters (no shortage of those, Lucifer knows) keep doing still.

The refusal to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a screamingly obviuos sign of denial of the state's legitimacy in general. For the Israeli government is located in the West Jerusalem, which lies within the supposedly "undisputed" (yeah, right) 1949 cease-fire lines, and its "Israeliness" should be beyond challenge. But it isn't. Brooklyn Bridge, armchair peacemakers and "1967 borders" capitulants?

Target: Israeli Children

May we honor their lives as we remember them in our saddened hearts.

The stories of the young victims
of terrorist attacks.

Terror is not blind.

The massacre in Jerusalem’s Sbarro restaurant.
Scroll down to see photos and bios.

Massacre in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood in Jerusalem: two babies and five children among the dead.
Scroll down to see photos and bios.

The slaughter in the Atzmona study hall.

and on and on...

that US citizens can't live in unless they are of a specific faith

Is this true re: Israel?

#25 If anything we are not giving Israel enough help. They are on the front lines on the war against Islamic Fascism and are the only country I think will stand with America in the region no matter how hot it gets. Plus it is the only liberal democracy in the region. It is a shining example of how a free society is better than a theocracy or a dictatorship. It serves the same function as West Berlin did in the cold war. The East Germans could look over the Berlin wall and see how much better off the free people were. (when I was in Berlin a few years after reunification I was amazed at how much better west Berlin was) The benefits to keeping Israel strong far outway the meagar costs.

We need to cut off aid to Egypt completely (at the latest after we have beaten Iraq) to make an example of what happens to someone who breaks a treaty. Show that part of the world how the rule of law works. Also, eventually we should give Israel back all the land it won in its previous wars of defense that it still wants.

'Mubarak said that "this series is in no way based on 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'" According to Mubarak the series deal with the history of the region with particular emphasis on the need for peoples of the book, Muslims, Christians and Jews to live together in peace and harmony. . . .Mubarak assured Katsav that the Egyptian people as a Semitic people are also, "against anti-Semitic tendencies."

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The egyptian media is controlled by the gov't, and the gov't by dictator for life (and possibly founding father of a dictator dynasty) Mubarak.

A lying, ungrateful, jew hating (but not anti-semitic - heaven forbid, we're semites too . . ) prick.

Re: #31

No, that's just the usual Ranbutanian bullshit. Non-Jews (from anywhere) cannot automatically become Israel's citizens, unlike Jews. They can, however, obtain citizenship through the naturalization process. Ran was apparently talking about the Saudi-style exclusion, which is of course horseshit.

If, however, he was talking about "settlements" (YESHA cities and towns) - but deliberately made it unclear - that is bullshit as well. Some "ultraorthodox" ones probably exclude anybody they do not see as Jewish (and if you are a regular reader, you know that I am not a big fan of theirs - just ask PDM). But in no way does this apply to every, or perhaps even most, YESHA communities.

re #31 - quotation from ranbutan

In short - BS. Like significant portion of his writing.

Any american citizen/resident, regardless of religion can live in Israel. Can buy just about any property, run a business. I'm not sure about the exact rules of employment, health coverage etc.
If he/she is jewish, then the the person can become a citizen automatically. For non Jews you would have to contact a lawyer.

The rhetoric coming out of the areas of TROPE (The Religion of Peace Entity) becomes more shrill and desparate by the day. They are drunk on their own words. It no longer matters if there isn't a scintilla of an iota of truth to any of it. The mob has taken over and doesn't care about truth, it only wants to get on with the lynching.

Flushing sounds good.

Dee

all of us should forward this article to Fox News. They are the only ones who would dare to address this on the air. Sigh.

"Don't blame Arafat and his men; it is the Jews who are behind every calamity!"(3)

ROPMA!

#24 Marek
__________
There were other blatant violations, e.g. tunnels, for smuggling of arms, from Egypt to Gaza strip that originated in egyptian army bases, or others that were conveniently overlooked by egyptian authorities.

Egypt turns a blind eye to all the arms smuggling that carries weaponry through Egypt to the Gaza Strip's southern border. From there it's brought through underground tunnels into the Raffa refugee camp in Gaza. 

IDF raids these Raffa tunnels every few months or so. Raids of the Raffa camp are a fact of life.

May Allah render his blessings unto MEMRI!! MEMRI Akhbar! If Mohammed was alive, he'd be translating for MEMRI...
ok, enough blasphemy.

What I'm trying to say is that MEMRI (which translated the above article) is one of the most useful organizations for letting us peek behind the PC veneer of the ""Religion of Peace"". So if you can, donate a few $$$ to the organization.

#35 you are correct. I know a man and his wife, who are not Jewish, from US, who were granted citizenship. He owns (or used to own) a large business in Tiberias.

Here is a post I wrote debunking more Ranbutan bunk regarding US aid to Israel.

Below is a link to Mubarak's assurances, in a letter to Katzav, that the "Horseman" series is in no way Anti-Semitic. Penetrating intellect that he is, he reasons that because Eygptians are also Semitic peoples they are "against anti-Semitic tendencies." I don't suppose that precludes bilious Jew- hatred, though.
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

I just noticed that my previous post replicated one somebody posted earlier. My apologies. It is refreshing to see that Mubarak's vile, idiotic dithering is so transparently seen for what it is: Streicher like apologia and incitement. Only the abominable Der Strumer was probabaly more clever.

the ruling gang in Tel-Aviv

hahaha! The fact that the Israeli gov't is in Jerusalem isn't "Zionist propaganda," its LIFE. If LIFE doesnt conform to what your imam or your local propaganda ministry says then maybe you should start thinking for yourself. I've known 5 year-olds who had more sense than these arab Losers (capital L).

Thanks for the links, #42 J Lichty.

Send a letter to your congress person this will link you to the info to send a letter email whatever. Stop aid to our enemies.
[Link: www.congress.org...]

the ruling gang in Tel-Aviv

Just so happens the ruling gang in Israel is democraticaly elected, as opposed to the ruling gang, eriathe barrel of a gun and at the pleasure of the State Department.

Ah, to see the world through arab eyes . . . seeing it the way you wish to see it, instead of how it really is . . .

correction:

the ruling gang in Tel-Aviv

Just so happens the ruling gang in Israel is democraticaly elected, as opposed to the ruling gang, er, thug (singular), who rules in egypt, via the barrel of a gun and at the pleasure of the State Department.

Ah, to see the world through arab eyes . . . seeing it the way you wish to see it, instead of how it really is . . .

Israel and "Palestine" must be seperated militarily and permanently. The idea of these two groups living in peace is a fantasy because Islam itself will never allow it. Stop the PC already and just do it. Nobody (especially our spineless European "allies") will like everything about the arrangement, but it's the only solution that can prevent, in all seriousness, WWIII.

The faces of the 11 victims of the Jerusalem Bus.

[Link: cms.bigbuzz.com...]

The names of the eleven victims of Thursday morning's suicide bombing in Jerusalem have been released. They have been identified as:

Dikla Zino, 22
Dikla Zino, 22, and her 16-year-old sister, Sivan, used to take the 20 bus to the center of the city every morning together. But on Thursday Dikla, who lived in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood, got up late and Sivan left on an earlier bus. Dikla boarded the bus along with the suicide bomber and was seriously injured in the head and chest when he detonated the bomb. She died on the operating table at Hadassah Hospital, Ein Karem. Dikla, who was released from the army four months ago, worked as a book-keeper. She is survived by her parents and three siblings. She will be laid to rest Friday morning at the Givat Shaul cemetery.

Sima Novak, 56
Sima Novak immigrated to Israel from the Ukraine eight years ago with her daughter Svetlana. She took Bus 20 as usual yesterday morning to her job as a house keeper in a home in the Pisgat Ze'ev neighborhood. In the Ukraine she was a teacher of chemistry and biology. Novak lived with the daughter and husband, and her toddler grand-daughter. Her daughter said that several months ago she had missed death by crossing a sidewalk seconds before a suicide bomber detonated a bomb at the King George and Jaffa Street intersection. Novak will be layed to rest Friday.

Hodaya Asraf, 13
Hodaya Asraf, 13, was enrolled at an arts school in the Katamon neighborhood. She boarded the bus several meters from her home and was killed in the blast. Rachel Lifschitz, principal at the school Asraf attended, said that Asraf's mother would call the school daily to make sure that her daughter arrived safely. Lifschitz described Asaraf as kind and generous, and noted that she had taken part in school plays. Asraf was buried Thursday night.

Marina Bazarski, 46
Marina Bazarsky lived in a modest apartment in Ir Ganim with her husband Alexander and their two teenage boys. Thursday, as she did every day, she took the 7 A.M. bus from Ir Ganim to Ma'ale Adumim, where she worked as a bookkeeper in a factory. "She was a charming lady," said her shocked husband of 23 years. While the family asked for its privacy, neighbors said the family arrived in Israel 10 years ago, and that "Marina was the dominant personality," in a "model family."

Yafit Ravivo, 13
Ravivo was laid to rest in the Givat Shaul cemetery Thursday at 9 P.M.

Hadassah Helena Ben-David, 32
Helena Hadassah Ben-David immigrated to Israel with her parents from Latvia, 12 years ago. She taught mathematics at Denmark comprehensive school in Jerusalem and had recently been living with her parents after getting divorced. Ben-David had three girls aged four, three and two. Her parents heard the explosion from their home and immediately tried to reach her on her cell phone. There was no reply. On Thursday the family agonized over how to break the news to the three tots. Ben-David was buried Thursday night at the Givat Shaul cemetery in Jerusalem.

Varga Mirsa, 25
Verga Mirsa, aged 25, was a tourist from Romania. He arrived in Israel five weeks ago and was staying in the Ir Ganim quarter of Jerusalem. His name was released for publication after his family was informed.

Ella Sharshevsky, 44
Ella Sharshevsky and her son Michael, also killed in the attack will be laid to rest Friday at 10:35 A.M. at the Givat Shaul cemetery.

Michael Sharshevsky, 16

Kira Pearlman, 67
Kira and her grandson Ilan, also killed in the blast, will be laid to rest Thursday night in Givat Shaul.

Ilan Pearlman, 8

VIGIL IN MEMORY OF VICTIMS OF THE BUS BOMBING ON 11/21 SPONSORED BY NYC YOUNG JUDAEA CLUB MEMBERS AND THE FIVE TOWNS ISRAEL ACTIVISM NETWORK.

LOCATION:
JCC OF MANHATTAN, 76TH & AMSTERDAM

WHEN:
TUESDAY NOV 26 6:15PM, USUALLY A HALF HOUR

WHAT:
VIGIL COMMEMORATING THOSE KILLED IN RECENT ACT OF TERROR BY SINGING SONGS, HATIKVA/ O SAY CAN YOU SEE, ARTICLE/POEMS

BRING SIGNS THAT YOU HAVE RELEVANT TO ISSUE

(HONK IF YOU HATE TERRORISM, 11 MORE DEAD, WHERE IS THE UN NOW,
TERROR IS TERROR, REMEMBER THOSE WHO DIE TRYING TO LIVE, FORGET
THOSE WHO LIVE TO DIE AND TAKE OTHERS WITH THEM, ETC)

source (FTISN · Five Towns Israel Activism Network)

A group of us in the NY Five Towns area have started a grass-roots organization to promote Israel activism. We have run a few workshops in the past, and decided to expand on the ideas previously discussed at our earlier meetings. With the current events as they are, we feel we have to do something and wake up from our relative silence.

Okay, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH: What the Egyptian Government has done first with the revial of the Protocals of Zion and now this OBSCENITY puts them permanently beyond all consideration. We should no longer be discussing this. We should get on Congress' back and DEMAND that all aid of whatever kind be cut off untill the Egyptian government stops this hate! No nice little explanations from those gutless eunichs in the State Dept. about how we have to understand the so-called Arab Street and not offend their precious feelings! We have a job to do and let's get to it.
Special Thanks to the following;Charles for posting this in the first place; to Wordwarp (#37) for suggesting this outrage should be forwarded to FoxNews the only news network with the guts to air this; El-Barto (#47) for the link to Congress and individual members; and most of all to GI JOE (#50) for the photos and biographies of the victims. Like with the victims of Sept. 11th.
ALWAYS REMEMBER, NEVER FORGET NEVER!

Ranbutan #25,

You might consider the dollars put in Israel as an investment and think of it in ROI (Return on Investment) terms. I'll bet you as much money as you want that the ROI of "investing" in Israel is considerably higher than the ROI of "investing" in Egypt.

,...,because of the state of madness that over took the ruling Israeli gang led by Ariel Sharon, who seeks to spill more Palestinian blood, especially the blood of children, women, the elderly,...,

They write that about an attack that killed a 9 year old and his grandma. The hypocrisy never fails to sicken me. And I hope it continues to sicken me. I never want to get to the point where I'm inured to this sort of ugliness.

Donna V (#55) Thanks you are right, we should never get use to and accept Obscenities like this!

Donna V.

It was good to meet you at the first Chicago LGF meeting.

The Billy Goat (not exactly a Kosher deli) but a landmark nonetheless.

J. Litchy:

I enjoyed our meeting too! And the Billy Goat was a good choice. Let's all get together again (maybe on a weekend when we all have more time to sit around and chat.) Of course, you'll soon be busy with your son and heir but you'll need to take a break every now and then,...,:)

NUR!

Charles, thanks for helping to put faces on the murdered.

A 9-year-old. My friends have kids that age. I remember being 9. What a fabulous time. Sad that some kids aren't allowed to enjoy it.

What murderous bastards.

This reminds me of the hysterical, over-the-top ranting that Nasser was spewing before the Six-Day War. It looks like Egypt is asking for another ass-kicking.

The Left is wearing blinders and refuses to acknowledge the level of hatred that's escalating daily throughout the Heart of Darkness.

Israel is a proxy here for the U.S., which Egypt can't attack directly without risking its next trip to the trough. I've already written more than once to my Congressional representatives asking why we're still giving money to Egypt. Needless to say, I don't get any answers.

#54 - Ariel

The notion of a ROI is good.

One of these days, someone will do a detailed one available to the public on the value of Egyptian, Brazilian,Turkish, Israeli...etc., foreign aid. So we can adjust and fine-tune foreign aid policy. Just as obviously, some special interest groups...ethnic, defense, foreign Gov't registered lobbyists - will fight like crazy to block such analysis if they suspect taxpayer dollars would be cut.

Any analysis would have to factor in positive ephemerals - gratitude in the people towards the USA, furthering American policy objectives, along with positive hard elements - kickback in money recycled to the USA for goods & services, synergies in key global industries.

And, weigh it against the intangible negatives. Does the aid generate ill-will in other places that is greater than the positive direct effect of the aid? Are there lost opportunities, lost business due to resentments. Does the aid hinder American policy interests elsewhere? Does it endanger American businesses and citizens, at home or abroad, or make them more secure? Even with the kickbacks and new synergies....is the cash outflow positive or negative...and does it create industries that compete with, more than compliment existing American businesses?

With respect to Israel - for the sake of argument.since the actual hard and soft numbers are not public.....If the US taxpayer forks out 10 dollars and gets 3 back to profit mostly a narrow industry and investor class(defense firms, stockholders), add in a buck for net positive intangibles...........the ROI is obviously quite negative.

Ranbutan,

Are you maliciously ignorant?

Israeli R&D benefits you and your family in more ways than you are aware off.

From key classes of medicines and other medical advances, to defense technologies Israel creates for pennies on the dollar of what it would cost the US, to behind the scenes software that you use everyday, and which adds tens of billions of dollars to american workforce productivity.

Having said that, you remain the proverbial monkey at the typewriter (no slur intended), and I agree that Israel should be off the american teat.

#42 - Lichty.....reminds me of some bed-wetting liberals that went into vapor lock when we finally passed legislation to end lifetime welfare entitlements to US citizens. My favorite was that one reason "the children would suffer" if their unwed Mom had to get off the couch and find a way to pay her own way was that welfare loss would hurt education because lottery and quickpick ticket sales would go down in poorer areas.....and that money went for educator's salaries.

He proud claim to "debunking" those questioning lifetime welfare checks to foreign countries has BS numbers for Israel...since he deliberately omits other dollar outflows that add to the welfare stipend. Israel is the only country Americans can contribute directly to the general coffers of and take a tax writeoff on (indirect Gov't subsidy), special business tax laws unique to Israel, the only country that has it's aid delivered net sum up front...rather than phased over the year. Add in the low interest loan guarantees similar to the infamous CEO "loans".....like the CEOs, commonly forgiven. With Israel, 14 billion in loans were forgiven over the last 16 years. A rather princely sum not covered in the posted "foreign aid" totals.

Lichty's 2.8 billion is laughably low. And, J.....people are disgusted in America to have to underwrite a 2 billion Egyptian welfare check every year...but I think eventually the Israeli welfare check and "special deals" will get scrutiny and similar taxpayer disgust.

The latest Israel "wish" for the coming 2003 welfare subsidy is 4 billion in military aid, 1.8 billion in direct civilian aid and 10 billion in loan guarantees...The reasons given for the increase are to compensate for higher than normal social welfare spending, hurt tourist revenues, money for the "value" of Israels intelligence shared - and other contributions to the WOT, higher West Bank security costs, also, pushing for the 800 million Clinton supposedly agreed to give Sharon if Israel withdrew from S Lebanon that Clinton never passed by Congress, and that Bush has so far refused to acknowlege was a bona-fide US commitment. Also, the increase in miliary aid is linked to Israel continuing to show "restraint" on Iraq.

#63 - Then no doubt Israel would be happy to make public a dollar and cents breakdown of US Aid, the tremendous contribution it makes to each American's standard of living, how US contributor's tax writeoffs allow them to spend and invest rather than prop up the Feds budget. Discounting, of course, all direct and indirect "costs" of America's annual welfare check.

Call it the "Such a Deal I Got For You!" PR campaign.

Funny as Lichty's "debunking".

As for your wishing for Israel to get off America's teat...fine. When? Each year the amount increases, and more Israeli "loans" are forgiven. I would love to see the tax-writeoff kept, if private contributions from the well-off international Jewish community (and gentiles that hold Israel's existence as enormously important) serves to replace the US taxpayer's role. Israel gets to do more of what it wants without the US clucking in the background....and the US escapes the diplomatic liability of the world associating every Israeli action they detest with US Government dollars that enable the action.

Ranbutan né Michael Kennedy:

You are not a credible source of informantion, especially as a self-admitted anti-semite.
What is the source for your fuzzy math?

I provided cites and you disagree with the numbers. Where are you getting your numbers? You have never cited one source.

Here's a tip from a "shyster lawyer:" Debate which includes supported facts is so much more effective. I know you hate lawyers, but your skills in advocacy would get you laughed out of court. Merely proclaiming yourself Caesar does not make your unsupported claims the word of Zeus.

BTW I love this line:

[By Ending US Aid to Israel] the US escapes the diplomatic liability of the world associating every Israeli action they detest with US Government dollars that enable the action.

You hateful fool. Now you are blaming hate for America on its "support" of Israel. Nice touch. I hope the Mossad doesn't warn you the next time the Islamists want to get back at America for supporting Israel. Are you auditioning to be Pat Buchanan's new intern?

I see bigots are not excluded in the ranks of your religion, Lichty.

As a shyster lawyer ostensibly interested in the facts, perhaps you can specify when I called myself an "anti-semite"? Typical perfidy. But that's your life and your art, Lichty...so enjoy...though your strident bitterness does make itself painfully evident.

Are you auditioning to be Pat Buchanan's new intern?

No. Are you auditing to be included in the next trip into a Pal refugee camp by Leb Militia?

You hateful fool. Now you are blaming hate for America on its "support" of Israel. Now Lichty...who exactly has been playing the fool?? Or are you consciously ignoring the daily reportage since Sept 11th of the widespread resentment in all Muslim countries for US aid and support of Israel....care for a link to various "Arabs?" how about Binnie himself....or will you blow that off like all the other articles and deny a linkage?? Personally, I want to continue my support of Israel on moral grounds....and have an attitude of screw the Islamicist...but don't deny the fact that the central locus of Arab resentment towards the US - before taking into account our having troops there, our economic impact, our cultural impact - is our lopsided tilt in Israel's favor and the huge aid package given.

I would like you as a lawyer, frankly...if I was guilty and could use a little sophistry and twisting of facts...you ARE adroit! So, any rebuttal to the FACT that Israel posted it's latest welfare request today - up to 4 billion in direct military aid, and 10 billion in loan guarantees? Tell me the numbers aren't factual. That doesn't even get into the non-military aid, or the tax writeoff the US extends to only contributors to Israel -which I want to keep if the direct welfare checks to Egypt and Israel cease (how much is that exactly, Lichty..in lost tax American revenues??)

Your whole rant reminds me of a social services worker who proclaimed that cities would burn in the US if our domestic welfare queens were given just so many years on the dole - vs. it being an eternal entitlement. And, of course ascribed the most evil motives to those wanting the welfare brought under control. Remember, the American taxpayer is under no obligation to give a foreign country a cent in "mandated" foreign aid. It is voluntary.

Re # 67

Every US tank and Armored Fighting Vehicle has a fire suppression system in it- Israel learned that 40% of the wounds in armored combat are burns.

Israeli airforce training practice and doctrine are shared- the US had only a few planes shot down in the Gulf War and only 2-3 shot down in dogfights. During Vietnam the ratio of air to air combat losses approached almost 1:1. Israel's lessons helped change US air combat (please put a price on the suffering and saved lives if you can).

Israel allowed herself to be hit by weapons of mass destruction (a war crime) requiring her civilians to sit in gas masks in safe rooms and just get hit- all to help the US maintain the figleaf of an "International coalition" against Saddam. Dick Cheney sent an Israeli official an autographed picture of Iraq' blasted Osirak Nuclear reactor- the inscription says "THANKS" Otherwise US troops would have faced a nuclear armed Saddam.

Shall I keep going? OK I will.

Israel has helped the US deploy the world's first and only operational theater ballistic missile system (US gets 100% full access to the science).

Israel has and does share her most itimate intelligence with the US including warnings that Osama was targeting the US in 2001.

90% of Israel's nondomestic military hardware purchases are US made (helps keep the bill lower for US tax payer)- so the money goes to Israel comes right back.

Most US drones are based on Israeli pioneering technology; most first generation drone systems in the Gulf War were of Israel manufacture. These saved many lives as did Israeli antimine technology that helped Stormin' Norman's boys crack the line fast with few casualties.

Israel developed and sells the Popeye missile to the US so our pilots can attack targets from out side the range of AAA.

As soon as the US found it might be facing urban warfare in Baghdad- the marines were in Israel training with the latest in urban tactics and weaponry.

These are the things that I know about, I am certain there is much much more. US warplanners know that Israel is 100% reliable as an ally. We also know we cannot plan on any support from the Arab world.

Couple of other points. Israel is the excuse; every Arab regime can be described as follows- unelected requiring some third party to blame for all that is wrong.

Israel does not prevent Arabs from getting educated, does not stiffle their economies, commit the cronyism that siphons away billions from already very poor people and does not publish and distribute textbooks and newspapers filled with fallacy and lies.

BUT WAIT THERE IS STILL MORE! The cost of all aid to Israel pales in comparison to what the US spends on defending Europe. Israel's power has prevented many wars- Jordan Syria in in 1971 for example. Every Arab country has had border disputes or a war with its neighbors; just the threat of force keeps things quiet.

You might also ask how did it come to pass that Israel started getting sizeable aid? It began when Israel gave up the Sinai, risking her security to advance US interests in the region- Peace with Egypt. Naturally, the best part of the deal for Israel- Peace and trade with Egypt have been ripped up by Mubarak but Israel gave up the only airbase in the world build under a mountain and hardened to withstand nuclear attack. The military aid compensates her for the added costs of security added by giving up the Sinai.

Tell me something the Arab world has ever done for the US besides sell us oil?

Ranbuchanan writes:

As a shyster lawyer ostensibly interested in the facts, perhaps you can specify when I called myself an "anti-semite"?

I remind for the um-teenth time, you admitted you were an antisemite when you wrote:

I hold some opinions of Jews that the more strident would consider anti-Semetic. 1. Jews have too much control over Hollywood and the American media. 2. Jews have undue influence in American politics and in the law profession. 3. Through the ACLU and other organs, Jews have taken some good pot shots at Christian culture in the USA over the years. 4. If I was born on the West Bank as a Pal, I or any American would be a pissed off rock thrower at the least under the occupation and settlement of our land. That being said, and in dialogue with Muslims explaining that I don't think Jews are all saints (excuse the pun), like you, at some time something clicks in them....

(emphaisis added)

See also the many threads since that which have confirmed this to many others. See especially the Tick, Tock thread.

So, any rebuttal to the FACT that Israel posted it's latest welfare request today - up to 4 billion in direct military aid, and 10 billion in loan guarantees? Tell me the numbers aren't factual.

My post simply asked you to back up you claim that the US has been giving 5 billion per year in aid to Israel which you still will not provide.

The claim that the US gives 5 billion per year is not proven by the request for 4 billion in the future. If that were the case, you could prove that I am not working today, because I am taking the day off on Thursday. (Incidentally in between responding to your rants I am working today).

You may call me bitter, and I am bitter when people like you throw their wild slanders around with reckless disregard for the truth.

are you consciously ignoring the daily reportage since Sept 11th of the widespread resentment in all Muslim countries for US aid and support of Israel....care for a link to various "Arabs?" how about Binnie himself....or will you blow that off like all the other articles and deny a linkage??

"Since 9/11" is the operative word. What was their excuse before that, or was the USS Cole not attacked, the Khobar Towers not bombed, Ameican Airliner not shot down over Scotland, Cruise Ship not hijaked, 215 Marines not murdered, Cleo Nobel not murdered?

US support for Israel is a convenient excuse used by the Arabs to kill two birds with one stone. They hate Israel and they hate us, one is not dependent on the other.

"Binnie" as you call him never said anything that was related to US support for Israel until he saw how much play it was getting post 9/11. He said that he attacked us because of our troops being in the Arabian penninsula. His battle cry has always been to kill Christians (Crusaders as he calls them) and Jews. He sometimes interchanges Crusaders and Americans.

Remember, the American taxpayer is under no obligation to give a foreign country a cent in "mandated" foreign aid. It is voluntary.

Nice strawman. I never argued that. I disputed your fuzzy math. If we are going to argue whether it is a good policy, then lets do so based upon facts, you still haven't grasped that concept.

Why must your argument depend upon false figures when to you even $1 in aid to Israel is too much.

I cited facts in my argument and backed them up with a link to the source. I never made any qualitative judgements which equates me with a personal welfare supporter, rather I pointed out your citing of what you purport as fact, but which you continue to refuse to back-up.

J Lichty,

No point getting worked up.

It is abundantly clear what Ranbutan's biases are.

There is the odd phrase and concept we can agree with, but most of his ideation is coloured by (?jealousy-induced) bias, which he attempts to masquerade by coming out as the coldly analytical american realpolitic patriot. Bullshit, but that's what he wants to project.

Regardless, he does bring up a valid point. Israel would be much less constrained in defending herself if she was not beholden to the US. It's an interesting question to consider: how affected is Israeli action by its continued dependance on american financial aid.

Maine's what takes the place of US military aid?

What would that look like on the ground? Is Israel beholden to the US because of other areas as well (trade, friend in the UN etc.) whcih would not lessen the pressure.

I do not believe that Israel should forego this military aid so long as the US is shipping arms to Israel's enemies.

Lichty -

Your whole attitude is that Americans are obligated to perpetually fund the Israeli welfare entitlement. And, that anyone arguing to the contrary is shudder anti-Semitic, which over the last 20 years various fanatics such as yourself have persuasively lumped 99.9% of the world's population as having as a defining characteristic. Made universal by those that see anti-Semitism in everything, and any one questioning ANYTHING done by Israel or overseas Jews is automatically so..................make one shrug in 99.9% of the rest of the world......kind of like equating being anti -Testse Fly with being anti-environment.

The phrase means little anymore, particularly since the pejorative "anti-Semite" is so inaccurate that it encompasses most Arab's ethnicity. And, made universal to all but a few on the Earth...ie, Catholics are anti-Semites, Chinese, Euros, All Muslims, why so are the Japs....and those Russians!! Why do you wonder when you have few allies for your ME nation when you have spent a generation calling all other peoples hating louses?

Your pal Buchanan was on with B Press, a Muslim, a Jew, and a Euro....guess what..they all agreed that aid to Egypt AND Israel was a relic of the past....even B Press!!!

My guess is that if Jews were willing to tithe 10% towards Judaism, like Mormons do, even 6% like Catholics do......Israel would have all the overseas contributions it needs..........and, not a damn obligation to the US.....sure! Blow up Iraq. Cleanse the Pals or kill them.....if the US is not linked at the waist to all Israeli actions through our dollars.....there would be no US
veto.

But that would mean Israel would be footed by it's direct supporters.....rather than mostly by American Catholic Hispanics, blacks, or Bubba Protestants.....and that would dent the wallets of the lawyer Lichtys out there. Come on....free rein for Israel...at the expense of personal "turn a buck" revenues...Lichty. Are you saying that paying out 10% like the Mormons do is abhorrent???? That overseas Jews can't swing it?

Ranbuchanan:

You choose once again to not address my post honestly.

Further, you do not address my arguments, instead you run from your previous words and create strawmen.

You argue as if you have proven points that others have disputed rather than debunking or disproving those points. You simply do not address the points that are harmful to your positions. You are disengenuous when you argue. For example you state: Your whole attitude is that Americans are obligated to perpetually fund the Israeli welfare entitlement. And, that anyone arguing to the contrary is shudder anti-Semitic

I neither make this argument implicitly or explicitly and you know it you lying sack of potatos, but this is how you argue, attribute derisive qualities to your opponent and then ride in like the white knight of the American people.

Well, I also am, to borrow one of your self-descriptions, "highly ed" and I choose not to debate "substance" with you as your debating style is not condusive to reasoned dialouge.

Others might respond to the strawman you posted above, but I no longer will.

As a parting shot, I make these criticisms of your advocacy style non-withstanding your biases.

I admit my bias. I am a pro-Israel Jew, you should admit yours as well, as I must keep reminding you that you have in the past. Instead, After I quote you describing yourself as an anti-semite you decide to play word games. OK you are a Jew-hater not an anti-semite. Happy?

#70 etc.

There has been the argument that you could be an American patriot without supporting Israel, and that support for Israel might actually worsen America's stand in the world.

Is it really this hard to understand that our destinies are intertwined, and that Israel cannot win its war - our war - if America loses, and vice-versa?