Fuck him.

...............its like 'darkness at noon'

we cant investigate the PA and how it uses EU money, because

if we do investigate

we wont be able to fund the PA anymore..

aaaaaarrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

A few weeks ago Chris Patten said "We need an investigation like we need a hole in our head". The investigation being one into how *exactly* Arafat's minions use and misuse funds the EU sends (squanders) on them.

how would, stopping the funding which pays for the terrorists undermine moderates.....

what the hell are we missing here.????????/

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region," Patten added.

Is the EU truly that impotent? Or important, for that matter? If the role that the EU is playing is propping up a regime that sponsors terrorism, then umm, maybe they shouldn't be playing any kind of role in the region?

They know they're funding terrorism. They just don't want to be caught with their hands in the cookie jar!

JG

"An inquiry would make it enormously difficult to continue providing aid (to the Palestinian Authority)," Patten told a meeting of the Parliament's foreign affairs committee. ...

This line needs to be repeated and emphasized throughout the media. If it isn't actually the smoking gun, it is the strong hint that he knows damned well that they're using the funds for terrorism, to line Arafat's pockets, and, most likely, his own.

The EU should be calling for his resignation for obstruction of justice.

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region," Patten added.

Left unanswered - why EU involvement is necessary in the first place. This is simply more EuroPretension. ^TM

A few weeks ago Chris Patten said "We need an investigation like we need a hole in our head".

So they really need an investigation? >:)

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region," Patten added.

What he's really saying is that he'd rather support a terrorist organization than do anything that might help Israel.

Welcome to Euromorality. Its just like morality, only BETTER. Using Euromorality you can justify any outrageous action or inaction just by having a goal of a "higher" good.

At not time does Euromorality require the Euromoralist to confront reality. With Euromorality the truth does not matter.

Clearly the only thing to do in the current situation is not call for the resignation of Arafat- after all the documents, after all the lies, after all the false promises- the terror expenditures signed by his hand, his cynical use of Preventative Security Office facilities as munition factories and terror staging areas- no, after all that, the right answer is negotiations beginning with security concessions that will lead directly to more Jews being murdered.

Damn you Chris Patten. Damn you for your lies and willing blindness to reality. Damn you for coddling a murdering thug and damn you for resisting every effort to bring about any democratic reforms for the Palestinians.

OK.

I am adding Chris Patten to the expanded list of individuals I'd like to see squashed like bugs. I continue to resent them for making me have these feelings.

Rantisi
Yassin
Nasrallah
Khatami
Arafat and his bald devil ambassadors (all of 'em)
Any pal who's name begins with Abu
The entire Tent of Saud
H. Mubarak and son
H. Hussein and Sons
B. Assad and his Minister of Defense Tlas
Chris Patten
Barney the Dino

The good news is that there's a good chance at least afew names on the list may acutally meet with an untimely end.

One Word:

Creepy

The history of the bloody continent and failings of Europe are indicative of every word in that article.

Ask yourself this;
is it a detachment to reality or is it an embracement of evil?

"EU Commissioner for External Affairs Chris Patten dismissed the call for a probe, saying it would undermine moderates in the Palestinian Authority..."

Only in Euroland could a perfectly reasonable request to see how's one's money is being used, be interpreted as some kind of insult to the beneficiaries.

It's the EU's money! Aren't they OBLIGATED to ensure that is spent properly?

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region," Patten added.

In other words, we don't care what they (the Palis) do with the money as long as it gives us legitimacy as rivals to the US. Let's not kid ourselves here - this statement can be interpreted soooooo many ways (and all of the above are legitmate and on-target), but ultimately "people" like Mr. Patten don't care if their money is used to kill Israeli children, as long as it gives them a competitive position against George Bush and Tony Blair, the true and moral powers in world affairs.

This is from May 2002.

Investigate the UNRWA picks up momentum

Besides my article in netanyahu.org, Continue the Jenin Probe but not by the UN by the IDF, there are others picking up the political momentum to investigate
the UNRWA being used as bases for international terrorism.

Here is the Pic from last May of the UNRWA worker's home in Jenin with PLO propaganda plastered of their walls.

http://cms.bigbuzz.com/contentImages/walk4israel/1 81/un2.jpg

Who will investigate the UN

Photo taken in Jenin of posters in praise of terrorist martyrs alongside a UN protective vest belonging to UN employee.

May 20, 2002
U.N. Bias Against Israel

UN institutional structures consistently are used to isolate and vilify Israel

The Big Brave jihad Warrior

[Link: www.frontpagemag.com...]

I love Reuters. Palestinian terrorism is "terrorism," but Patten's drivel is a robust rebuttal of claims the EU is soft on militants.

Reuters and Patten are both beyond embarrassment.

He is the European Alfred E Newman: "What...me murder?"

What about that latest report that the PA was trying to finance a factory -with EU money, no doubt - to produce ingredients for high grade explosives? (link found on worldnetdaily.com)

[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

I laud those 100 brave people who dare to question their Fearless Leader on this and sign that petition and pray for 50 more. Then he would have to comply and some of the truth would come out. Maybe the disgrace of how much taxpayer $ has been stolen by Arafat or used to murder children will bring him down.

OT, but the RoP tried to hijack a plane in Europe ("he claimed to be a member of Al-Quida"), even though the news reports won't say he was a you-know-what.

He is so full of shit and lame excuses. It is obvious he knows, and he is smugly flipping the bird to Israel. Patten apparently has no moral objection to subsidizing the murder of innocent Jews, a european tradition, only now they get to subcontract the attempted genocide to their arab friends and pretend to have clean hands.

Israel will need to dismantle the PA soon. It serves no useful purpose whatsoever, other than as a legitimizing front for palestinian murderers.

As we berate the EU let us not forget the Israel Labor party was the enabler to the EUs fix for Jewish Blood-Letting by building the PA in the first place via Import of the PLO and arFart to Israel proper and bestowing International legitimacy to the worst terrorist group ever.

15,500 terrorist attacks in two years in Israel, and counting, and the 10 year god awful mistake of the Oslo Accords by the Israel Labor party the PA is still in place in the Israeli territories as if nothing has happened.

Their massive error has still not been accepted as that.

Denial is not just in Europe, it is in Israel itself. I would call it denial in Israel but gleeful acceptance in Europe.

It is SICK to know that money from my parents' taxes goes in to the pocket of terrorists. People like Chris Patten are a disgrace to humanity.

Here is how EU money is used, Mr. Patten:

The Palestinian Authority plans to establish a facility for the mass production of military-grade explosives.

Israeli officials said an examination of captured PA documents revealed that Palestinian security forces have drafted plans to complete a facility meant to produce military-grade explosives in the Gaza Strip. They said the facility would manufacture vital chemicals required for TNT, RDX amd RETN.

The PA's Preventive Security Apparatus has taken responsibility for the production of explosives, officials said. They said the agency has determined that a factory to produce nitric acid would require $18,500 for equipment and space. The acid is regarded as the most important chemical in weapons-grade explosives and the plan called for the plant to work 24 hours a day.

A document seized from the security agency's headquarters at Tel Al Hawa earlier this month envisioned that the factory would be at least 100 square meters and have the capacity to produce 15 tons of nitric acid a year. The memorandum said an investment of $30,000 would double production capacity to 30 tons of acid annually.

[Link: www.menewsline.com...]

The utter cynicism of Patten's response is breathtaking. I agree entirely with #15 - the Eurotwits would rather continue to pad Arafat's private bank accounts and terrorism, morality and justice be damned, rather than to admit that the EU's spending makes it complicit in terrorism.

This sophistry reminds me of good old Neville Chamberlain. It was better to maintain a "dialogue" with Hitler by allowing him to dismember Czechoslovakia and by swallowing his lies that taking the Sudentendland would satisfy the German need for "lebensraum" than to confront him forcefully. It was only when Hitler invaded Poland that England was forced by the existence of its treaty with Poland to declare war against Germany.

England found out that its willful blindness only allowed Hitler to continue to build up its military strength until it was unstoppable. If the US had not come into the war, Germany would have won it - England was utterly exhausted and could not have continued to fight alone indefinitely, Russia experienced horrific casualties of 20 million, the rest of Europe was under the Nazi bootheel, and Japan was firmly entrenched in the Pacific and the Far East. The Arabs were allied with the Germans in the Middle East, and Africa could play no major role other than as a supplier of raw materials for its colonial masters. Germany would have eventually developed the Bomb, and it would have been all over.

Europe is making the same mistake again by refusing to see that militant Islam has the same goal of world domination. Israel is the modern-day Czechoslovakia, a bone which Europe is willing to toss to the Arabs in the hopes that it will satisfy them. Fortunately, Israel is far better equipped to defend herself than Czechoslovakia was and will continue to stick in the Arabs' craw, despite Patton's and the EU's best efforts.

It is not just Euro money going to the PA/PLO, arfFart

American tax dollars, 100s millions, go to arab terrorists in Israel as well every year.

Amy,

"Europe is making the same mistake again by refusing to see..."

Is it possible they are in fact not refusing to see what the truth is but in fact do see what is happening and accept that because they want that too?

OT, but some funny post-script to the failed hijacking earlier today:

A former Italian policeman with a history of mental illness tried to hijack an Italian jetliner Wednesday, claiming he was an al-Qaida terrorist with a bomb, police said. The same man hijacked a plane three years ago and held hostages for three hours.

"Oh God, he's done it again," his mother, Orella Savorani, told the Italian news agency ANSA after learning about Wednesday's incident in Lyon.

French authorities said it was not immediately known why he was not in prison for the earlier hijacking.

French police said that in addition to the earlier plane hijacking, Savorani also commandeered an Italian train in 1998 with a fake weapon.

"It's the same person," a police spokesman said. "He's done it again."

The Link

Ah, those wacky europeans.

Solomon X,

You would be wacky too if you lived with those nuts.

Can you imagine what life is like there?

Good God!! The EU has become the new Chicago.

But at least the Chicago aldermen are (cough, cough) elected, and I haven't heard of any being accused of funding terrorism from the public trough. Patronage, payola, ghost payrolls, kickbacks, bribes, graft, shrinkage, graveyard votes and no bid contracts, but not terrorism.

Of course Chicago aldermen are semi-controlled by a healthy fear of federal prosecutors and the overwhelming desire of not getting caught. Not that getting caught has prevented anyone from being reelected.

Investigating the EU's funding of the PA, and the PA's use of those funds sounds like a good job for, (ta ta daa) the ICC. Afterall, wouldn't funding of terrorism qualify as a war crime.

Hey, the Eunicks want the ICC, let them deal with the consequences.

months ago when the stupidfata was in full swing bibi was asked what should europe do. his response: "be ashamed."

however, i don't think the majority of europeans have the capacity for such a response. they weren't ashamed when the jews were rounded up to their death. they weren't ashamed when they took over jewish houses and buildings for their own use. they weren't ashamed when they refused to help the nascent israeli state, going so far as to not ship bought and paid for fighter planes in 67 (thanks de gaulle), not allow overflight rights to the US for airlifts in 73 (thanks all but portugal), allow the 75 UN nazi=zion resolution plus hundreds others against israel and most recently allowing the murder of israeli civilians with the prime help of eurodollars.

fuck them all

This truly must be one of the strangest policy explanations in recorded history. Is the quote accurate?

Can the Europeans be this feckless?

Charles, everybody...

Have you seen that we have a new shoe bomber!

This guy is some whacko that apparently pulled the same stunt three years ago. My bet is that he isn't really a member of Al-Qaeda. Obviously.

Heh. I should read the comments more.

Chris Patten homepage....

[Link: europa.eu.int...]

MPA,

Its more like arrogance.

They know as well as everyone else in regards to the tiny Jewish state no one really gives a shit.

HE and they can do just about anything and they know they will easily get away with it.

It was very clear to everyone post 9.11 what that double standard for Jews compared to the rest of the world is.

Terorrism is a blight everywhere else but in Israel, in Israel its activism that must be reconciled not obliterated like everywhere else. Even today, even after 9.11, because they are just Jews.

When a 'Terrorist' Is a 'Militant' and Why

"Doctors operate to save terror victim with watch embedded in her neck"

[Link: web.israelinsider.com...]

The bomb was paid for with EUrodollars, and manufactured under UN protection at a "refugee camp."

So nauseating.

-adam.

#26 GI Joe,

I don't think that the Europeans want a worldwide Islamic takeover. I think that they want to appease the Islamists in the hopes of evading such a takeover in Europe, the rest of the world be damned. The 1930's redux.

Inspector Clouseau and the Missing Euros?

Amy,

Yep.

James (#32)

Saw the story on Yahoo!

French Arrest Man After Hijack Bid Fails

"Oh God, he's done it again," the Italian news agency ANSA quoted his mother, Orella Savorani, as saying. "I've been anxious for hours because he didn't come home at lunchtime."

I hate to laugh about this, but that is bloody hilarious!

zulubaby,

This is the third hijacking that italian has done in three years, two planes and one train and he never did any jail time.

GI JOE #24

I don't think I could stand the assault on my moral sensibilities.

The "fantasy ideology" discussed in this great article mentioned on a previous thread applies equally to Europe. They live in a fantasy world of moral superiority and ascendant civilization. Americans, Israelis, the palestinians are all just props. The EUnees have no basis in reality for their policies, they only reinforce their fantasy view of themselves. If you read the article, this will make sense.

Max Boot, in today's Washington Times says NATO is more relevant than the EU. NATO'S Undiminished Purpose "is to save Europe from the consequences of its own strategic nearsightedness and moral obtuseness." It was NATO, not the EU, that opened to Eastern Europe, went into Yugoslavia, etc.

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region," Patten added.

Does the EU gain anything by sending aid which keeps the region unstable? Is is simply the desire to say "see, we're helping too?"

It's almost like the EU looked at what the U.S. was doing in trying to broker peace (good, bad or othewise) and as quickly as possible assembled something to show they could do that too. In reality their efforts effectively countered anything positive that was going on.

Islam goes the same way. The founder(s) saw Judaism and Christianity and hurriedly assembled something close (so they thought) as if to say "look!! we can do religion too!!"

#37 - I think you are onto something. After all, and beside all the sad rethoric about our 'moral superiority' and 'more nuanced approach to diplomacy,' Europe is still the most racist, xenophobic place in the western world. There is genuine fear and hatred towards immigrating minorities, including muslims. (And not just among the 'uneducated masses,' just look how the EU elites basically told Turkey to Fuck Off about membership -- apparently for being too pigmented for Giscard's tastes).

We are afraid, and therefore we appease.

I happen to think that most of the fear (say 99.9%) is irrational and counterproductive, and even more so the hate. What we (as a continent, if nothing else) need is a prudent, firm, self-respecting attitude to internal and external threats, most recently islamic terrorism. If we could just stop being so damned afraid, maybe we would for starters see the satanic carnage in Israel for what it is, and start supporting the only democracy in the middle east...

Step one: kick out Mr. Patten and all the other unelected satanocrats who condone and finance the killing of children. Step two: go from there...

Venting, incoherent, I know. Just had to say something. Chris really pisses me off.

An inquiry would make it enormously difficult to continue providing aid (to the Palestinian Authority)

The bastard knows, all right. Firstly, he can't realistically NOT know(Its his job!)

Secondly the above statement makes no sense whatsoever if the money is not being sent to terrorists in a way that an audit would expose.

It is possible that he thinks the investigation could be misconstrued by an ignorant media, but franky I doubt such an honest sentiment has entered his mind.

If there was any justice or critical reading skills in the world, the NYT would take that quote and promptly scream 'E.U. PUBLICLY ADMITS WILLFULLY FUNDING TERRORISM, REFUSES TO STOP.' on their front page.

But with the Zionist-occupied media, we haven't a chance of that. Natch.

#45, Yeah, Giscard looking down his nose, curling his Gallic lip and intoning that Turkey is not "a European country" was a classic. And let's not forget that England had first, second and third class citizens, non-whites like Hong Kong Chinese and non-White Africans comprising the last category.

And the difference between the American and German concepts of citizenship is telling. Someone born on American soil, regardless of his parentage, is an American. For the Germans, anyone of German parentage, regardless of where he is born, is a German citizen. This gave Hitler his excuse to go to the rescue of allegedly oppressed Sudetenland ethnic Germans.

If you took a poll today of non-immigrant residents of Europe, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of them would say that being White is a necessary component of being French or Dutch or Austrian or German or.... Other than the nutcase White supremacists, the majority of Americans would find the question itself nonsensical.

The Euros, and especially France, are angling for sweet oil deals with their Arab buddies and for the resurrection of their limp instrument of influence-wielding in world affairs, all at the expense of the arrogant bully America. It's as simple as that.

Re: The Big Brave Jihad warrior #17

Can't you see that little girl deserved to be killed for showing her legs and hair in public?

"An inquiry would make it enormously difficult to continue providing aid (to the Palestinian Authority)," Patten told a meeting of the Parliament's foreign affairs committee.

It's too bad James Taranto is on vacation. This is a classic You Don't Say item.

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region," Patten added

Ah, so there we have it, the EU's "just look busy" strategy with regard to Middle East Peace... So European, so sophisticated.

Amy #47:

Right on. God bless you.

Demonstrating morality when it comes to jews not only doesn't pay in Europe, it's not even deemed important. Anything can be said and done to Israel and jews, and yet the perpetrators can still hold themselves up as untarnished idealists to theri 'subjects'. Israel simply doesn't counts; it's an impediment to moving on with more important things, easily dismissed when the superficial lipservice of universal morality directed her way in a cynical attempt to get her to move in ways inimical to her justified self interest is no longer expedient.

We are witnessing push coming to shove.

Fuck them.

Maine's Michael #51,

Yep, what we're observing is a classic example of the Euros preparing to feed Churchill's crocodile its dinner.

Fortunately for Israel, though, GWB isn't the antisemite that his blue-blood elitist father is. God, how I despise GHWB!

If the US had not come into the war, Germany would have won it - England was utterly exhausted and could not have continued to fight alone indefinitely, Russia experienced horrific casualties of 20 million, the rest of Europe was under the Nazi bootheel, and Japan was firmly entrenched in the Pacific and the Far East.

Not to denigrate the American role, but by 1944, when the US opened the European front, Germany was utterly beaten in the USSR and completely driven off the Soviet territory. (True, it was still holding strong in Europe, and in in fact might have survived long enough to develop the bomb.)

It was Russia's willingness to sacrifice dozens and hundreds of its own for one German (human life never a big value there), and not the supposed "brilliance" of its strategists, that was a decisive factor in the Nazi defeat on the Eastern front. Basically, the Wermacht war machine was smothered with Russian (and Jewish, and Ukrainian, etc.) corpses. The sad and horrible fact is that there might not have been any other way.

Amy writes:

And the difference between the American and German concepts of citizenship is telling. Someone born on American soil, regardless of his parentage, is an American. For the Germans, anyone of German parentage, regardless of where he is born, is a German citizen.

Actually, the difference isn't quite so stark. Someone born to U.S. citizens is also considered an U.S. citizen, regardless of place of birth.

It is true, of course, that the US crushed Nazis in the Western Europe, thus sealing their fate, and what's more, saved the worthless appeasing/surrendering asses from Soviet domination.

An excellent article on Europe's immoral Mideast policy (the last line is a classic):

The EEC: Killing Jews Selectively
By Yisrael Ne'eman

Believe it or not in Cairo the European Union is still trying to negotiate an agreement between Arafat’s Fatah/Tanzim and the Hamas where it will be agreed only to kill Jews in Judea, Samaria and Gaza but not inside of Israel’s 1967 lines. The Islamic Jihad is not part of the picture and they hold the right to kill Israeli Jews wherever they may be found. Neither the Fatah/Tanzim who were involved in the Kibbutz Metzer massacre, nor the Hamas who took credit for this morning’s suicide/homicide bus bombing in Jerusalem’s Kiryat Menachem neighborhood (killing 11 and wounding 45) seem to be making progress towards classifying Jews to be massacred.

The problem is understandable since neither group wants to stop killing Jews. Limiting killing Jews to specific areas also cuts down on the possibilities of high casualties. The Europeans want to prove that only certain Jews deserve to die, mainly those in the 'occupied territories'. Does that mean these areas are to be Judenrein? After all there are Arabs living in Israel and even if there will ever be a peace agreement (there almost was one when Barak was prime minister) does that mean no Jews are allowed to live in a peace loving, secular, democratic Palestinian state?

Categorizing Jews into those deserving of death and those who are allowed to live due to geographic domicile sounds contradictory to the usual 'humanistic' line being pushed at us by the self-righteous European Union. To this observer it rings of German policies towards the Jews in the 1930’s when the Nazis wanted to rid the Reich of its Jewish citizens through state sanctioned terror, only here the terror is Palestinian and it will now get the sanction of the EEC.

But looking ahead how do the European intermediaries expect to handle such international terror attacks (when the Jews are preferred targets) such as the bombing of the Jewish community building in Buenos Aires in the 1990’s? Surely Diaspora Jews should not be killed. But what happens if a Diaspora Jew gives money for Jewish development beyond the 1967 borders? Is he not an accomplice to other Jews living in this wrong geographic area and thereby a legitimate target?

And what if a non-Israeli Jew (or even an Israeli for that matter) just wants to visit a Jewish holy site like the Cave of the Machpela in Hebron or even the Western Wall and Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem (many have forgotten this area was captured by Jordan in 1948, emptied of its Jewish residents until recaptured by Israel in 1967). One could probably make the case for his being allowed to live if he is only visiting, but the exact amount of hours need to be negotiated, otherwise he may be considered a temporary resident and draw the death penalty. This could be avoided however if he were to make a generous donation to Yasir.

The Europeans may consider the areas of residence of certain Israeli Jews to be illegal, but that does not take away the legitimacy of these people to live. The Europeans are no longer compromising with terror, they are encouraging it.

But don't worry, the Hamas and Fatah/Tanzim are not going to come to any implemented agreement not to kill Jews based on Jewish geographical residence, so in the end our valiant European peace-makers will fail.

Amy

And let's not forget that England had first, second and third class citizens, non-whites like Hong Kong Chinese and non-White Africans comprising the last category.

As an Englishman this comes as news to me - what is your source?

Sharona wrote (in another entry): "Only when people like Messers. Patten, Chirac, and all those other EUnochs (or their family members), are exposed to this kind of violence will the EU and others take heed and stop financing these monsters."

Sorry, Sharona, even that's not going to help. Some people are born appeasers. Had these persons or their family members been subject to this kind of horror, they would only kowtow more energetically to the terrorists, in hopes that they will be spared. Some people are born appeasers, collaborators, slaves, you name it. They attack weakness ruthlessly, but cringe before power. Under Nazi rule, people like Patten make do. Under a caliphate rule, Chomski would not take government money and be the venomous dissenter, but would say "yes master" in Arabic (the government's money he'd still take, though).

It takes true men (and women, I know, but the point is backbone, not gender) to stand up to the monsters and stop them. Sadly, it is difficult to find true men among among the EU-niks.

On the main topic its disgusting and morally reprehensible for patten to come out ith this shit. His statement distilled to basics is

If we look for money going to terrorists then we'll find it. This will make it hard to pretend the pals are nice peaceloving people. So we won't look.

One more reason for the UK to ditch the EU

and before anyone points it out yes I know patten is British..he sadly seems to have gone native in brussels...tosser

#57 OverWatch

Hello....

I would be interested to know where you found out about LGF....

"An inquiry would make it enormously difficult to continue providing aid (to the Palestinian Authority)."

Because it would show that your money is financing terrorism.

"We have insisted on reform since we began the administrative assistance in 2001."

And your insistence has had absolutely no effect whatsoever. The terror attacks continue unabated.

"If we sunder relations with the Palestinian Authority it will be very difficult to claim that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region."

If you don't sunder relations with the terrorist entity that is the Palestinian Authority, the role that you play will continue to be that of terrorist financier and enabler.

#61 ploome

A few months ago Jeremy Reynalds put me in touch with Aaron Wiesburd and i got the link from aarons Online Haganah

Overwatch.....welcome to America..:o)

#54 E.Nough,

I beg to differ. When I took International Law in law school, I was taught that Germany and the US represent the two dominant contrasting views of citizenship. A child born to American parents outside of the US is not automatically an American, unless he's born in a country like Germany where it's parentage rather than territory that counts, since children are not generally allowed to be stateless when an alternative exists. My husband was born in Osaka, Japan in 1953 - his father was serving in the Occupation force. Even though he was born in a U.S. Army hospital, his parents had to bring him back to the U.S. within 6 months and he actually had to be naturalized; he still had his papers to prove it.

#57 OverWatch,

My sources are things I read as a college student (1972-76)- I majored in European history with an emphasis on British 18th and 19th century political and social history. Also, I had friends at college from Hong Kong, and they told me that Whites living within the British Isles were first-class citizens, Whites living outside the British Isles were second-class (Rhodesians, English South Africans, for example), and non-Whites were third-class. Whereas second-class citizens could come to the British Isles to live with minimal difficulty, it was much harder for a third-class citizen to do so.

I'll concede that these rules may have changed in the last 25 years, when I wasn't keeping up, but I stand by the fact that these categories did exist.

Terorrism is a blight everywhere else but in Israel, in Israel its activism that must be reconciled not obliterated like everywhere else.

I disagree. Concessions have been made to terrorists in Northern Ireland, Spain and are currently being made in Sri Lanka. There are guys who have positions of political power in Northern Ireland now who have a history of terrorism but who are immune from prosecution for terrorist acts as part of the conditions of the peace agreement.

The extent to which the Jews are hung out to dry by terrorist-sympathisers in the EU (and academic elites pretty much everywhere) is shameful but sadly not unique.

Amy,

You are talking about immigration not any kind of internal British systems. Yes our British descended friends in Rhodesia are welcome to return to the land of their fathers - thats becasue they are being persecuted and killed by Comrade Bob. The Hong Kong question was a matter of practicality. British Citizens (those born in the UK) of all races were allowed back regardless of race. Everyone else as allowed back subject to standard immigration rules and again race plays no part. Native Africans in Zim have no "right of return" becasue they are not British. We have however granted assylum to many african natives from Zim whose lives were in danger from the murderers currently in power in Harare/Salisbury.

We have been for a long time a country which accepted immigrants. We are not a nation of immigrants like the US but we have nonetheless always offered sanctury to those in need. The implication that we are some kind of racist state who considers nonwhites as third class citizens is both preposterous and a slur on our good name.

BigBad,

Its not because of her hair or legs its because she's Jewish.

The hair and legs thing would be for a muslim's murder for a Jewish person there is no excuse needed.

"We have insisted on reform since we began the administrative assistance in 2001,(Patten) said.

Uh huh. Reforms in the speed in which Sadaam's cash is handed out to the families of spodeydopes? Kindly providing Zam Zam cola and free falafel at the Pali's Jew hating rallies? Persuading Arafat to change his socks once every 6 months or so? Pali "reform" is about as likely as wolves becoming strict vegetarians.

The EU has already done a lot for the middle East. Why, if it weren't for the Holocaust and general European foaming at the mouth hatred of jews, the State of Israel might not have come into being. If it weren't for European coddling of tyrannical Arab regimes, the middle East might even be somewhat peaceful today. So don't worry, Mr. Patten, you guys are already doing a lot. Go have a cigarette, some coffee and laze the the day away smelling bad at some cafe.

as for the us citizenship... current law states that citizenship is automatic if of an american mother, but to claim through your father, your father must affirm in court that you are his child (there's a document you can have signed...)

this was based on the fact that until recently paternity was rather hard to prove (most of Europe probably had reasonable belief that their father was american if they wanted citizenship aster WWII), but maternity was much easier (mother generally being present at birth)

an evil man was recently deported based on this, he had molested some children and was fighting deportation given that his father was American, but the (i believe) court upheld the law and had him deported...

the laws were different earlier, and you had to be naturalised...

Germany's laws are different in that it doesn't matter if you're born in germnay, you're still a foreigner

as for British Empire... the problem that most people had and have with the system, is that we don;t see any legitimate difference between country and colony... all part of the same polity/subject to the same rulers, therefore all should have the same rights... the BE viewed the colonies and Great Britain quite differently, and it was racist, not wanting the wogs to come to Britain in large numbers, and wanting the colonists to stay in the colonies, not come home.

US rules are more appropriate: you're a citizen, but your place of residence affects whether you pay taxes, vote, etc. If you live in Puerto Rico, you can move freely to the mainland, and vice versa, but there are different rules wrt taxes, etc... Also if you live in DC, you don't get a voting congressional representative or Senator (course you could likely find a few houses and bang on doors and have more effect than a Nebraskan..). US rules on citizenship are likely going to be changed to reflect that paternity can be determined to 100%, as are rules on alimony and child support.

Re: #67 the farce of having people entitled to British Passports, but not actually entitled to enter the UK is a disgrace. Indeed, there are 1st and 2nd class British citizens, and it makes my blood boil thinking about the Whitehall hypocrites who thought up and implemented this. In theory, Race has nothing to do with it: but in practice, it was done purely and simply to stop a flood of immigrant HK Chinese and ex-colonist Africans (mainly black) from escaping the consequences of successive UK governments policies in giving in to dictatorships, of the proletariat and otherwise. Fortunately, the Senile old men of Beijing have shown more the velvet glove than the iron fist, and for the most part the HK Chinese are deeply patriotic, preferring to live under a mild repression that's home-grown rather than a much milder repression that's foreign.

As for Chris Patten: he made the best of a bad job in HK. He has a really difficult job at present in the EU. But he's lost the plot, become overwhelmed by events. A concerted campaign of e-mails and snail-mails might just remind him of the bigger picture: that there's no point in providing money for medical services etc to one group if a proportion of it is being used to massacre another group. Remind him of Noraid, in particular. A more morally correct stand might actually give the EU more rather than less standing in the Middle East in the long term, so even in RealPolitik funding the bombers is wrong

Amy:

My kids were born overseas to a non-American mother. Obtaining American citizenship at the US embassy was easy.

China is a better example than Germany of the DNA-based view of citizenship where, in practice, 50% Chinese blood plus a Chinese surname are required. (Taiwan is almost identical). This system is easier to handle as a matter of policy than law, but is consistent with one of the best-known maxims of ex-Chairman Deng: "Once a Chinese, always a Chinese".

China has three classes of nationality: Chinese, foreign and Overseas Chinese. Depending on the definition one uses, there might even be more: "compatriots" from Taiwan, residents (Chinese only) of the HK/Macau Special Regions, and "national minorities". Again differential treatment is hard to find in the law but are matters of policy & handled administratively. Overseas Chinese can benefit from certain investment regulations; on the negative side, they are subject to arrest and trial for crimes committed overseas, such as dissent.

The UK issues a "second class" passport (i.e. without automatic right of abode) called British National Overseas (BNO). If your friends were from Hong Kong, they might have considered the HK COI as the "third class", as that was the popular terminology. However, the BNO was not reserved for "whites". In HK, BNO holders are the 39% of the population born under UK administration. Not granting citizenship to HK residents in general was determined at the outset of Sino-British discussions as China declared its nationality principles non-negotiable. "Benefits" for China included forced repatriation of Vietnamese refugees of the Sino-Vietnam war of 1979, statelessness of much of HK's Indian residents and avoidance of governing a large bloc of people who would have dotted in to another country on the world's org-chart.

Over objections from Beijing, the UK, in a compromise reached by Chris Patten (!), granted UK residence to 50,000 families--a number which sounds small but which has never been fully taken up.

One develops a lawyer's consciousness of these matters in Asia, with immigration schemes and touts comprising a major industry. My survey says that American is still considered the Rolls Royce of passports. After all, Sun Yat-sen kept his.

Doesn't matter how the Eunichs are involved as long as they're involved ?!

EU as future 'superpower'? Don't make me laugh.

from samizdata.net

[Link: www.samizdata.net...]

OT : Where is the interrobang symbol (!?) on my keyboard?

Patten is simply doing his job-protecting European interests in the ME which include: trade (esp. arms), oil and arab investment in Europe. Killing Jews is simply a bonus, er... I mean an unfortunate consequence of policies directed to the greater good.

EU funding is supporting terrorism. What perhaps has not been so clear is whether the Europeans are doing this unintentionally or with the knowledge that their funding is supporting terrorism. This mystery is cleared up by Patten, who shows his guilty knowledge by opposing an inquiry, and by confessing that an "inquiry would make it enormously difficult to continue providing aid" (to the Palestinian Authority).

Patel #73: Thanks for the info!

Amy #77:
You're welcome. Actually, I sort of liked Chris Patten when he was here in Hong Kong because he was the only voice for local people during a time when both governments were doing a G-to-G deal over everybody's heads. And he was terribly vilified by China, earning the name "villain for 1000 generations" for, among other sins, expressing democratic values. I am therefore particularly disappointed by his performance at the EU. Maybe he's just playing to the left wing of the Labour party, although when I lunched with him several times he always seemed to have an eyebrow raised when it came to anything American.

Just to mention another local event: the Kitty Hawk is stopping in town for Thanksgiving; its sister-carrier the USS Constellation left last week towards the west, destination undisclosed, carrying 5000+ crew, average age 22 years/6 months. Today's US Navy is very civilized...not the stereotyped whore-mongers of the Vietnam War era...maybe there's new rules ...for sure there's more women ..... everybody's got Internet. One guy asked me on the street for directions and called me "sir". Normally I'm self-conscious about this (until my knighthood arrives), particularly with an African-American, but then I realized he was less than half my age and I thought "ok".

#78:

"Maybe he's just playing to the left wing of the Labour party, although when I lunched with him several times he always seemed to have an eyebrow raised when it came to anything American."

Can you expand on this a bit? Do you mean that he had little or nothing good to say about anything that America said, made or did?

Are you saying that his obstructionism is merely intended as a poke in the American eye?

Is there a reason for this irritating superiority complex, other than his being a Brit?

Do you think that the man has a conscience if he's so ready to stab Israel in the back simply for the sake of scoring brownie points with the Leftists?

"Normally I'm self-conscious about this (until my knighthood arrives), particularly with an African-American, but then I realized he was less than half my age and I thought 'ok'."

Why would it make you more uncomfortable for a Black sailor to call you "sir" (which is standard military procedure for respectfully addressing civilians)?

Why don't they send that money to a more peaceful european people - like say the Cornish who through decades of mis management by the English Crown have the lowest GDP of any region in western europe. OR do we have to set off bombs and KILL innocents?

Amy and Overwatch - Ther germans do not allow people with german parentage back into Germany - Your father has had to have been a citizen in 1975 and not renounced his german citizenship at the time you were born. I know people from Australia who have a german father/mother and are on the "2 year holiday" visa - no right to immigrate/work in the EU. As for the UK - they threw out so many thousands of people last century from Scotland Wales and Cornwall. Then expected and got their children to come back and fight in ww1 and ww2 and now all we get is the holiday visa THANKS VERY MUCH. Yet I walk the streets of London and see the likes of Abu Hamza.....

A lot of people are talking crap about 2nd class this or that in the UK - HELLO - there are thousands of Australians and NZ South Africans who's ancestors were removed by the crown in the 19th century - Highland clearances Enclosure acts etc_ EVEN allowing for natureal immigration - the only RIGHT OF RETURN to the UK is if a grandparent was born in the UK - not the old Commonwealth/ Empire. Therefore right of abode this 2nd class that is utter BS. In fact the people that have those visas have more rights than Australians etc like me who's ancestors were here for tens of thousands of years in Wales and Cornwall. The areas that have been untouched by any immigration in the last 2000 years.

Heh. According to Mr. Patten "claiming that the EU is playing any kind of role in the Middle East region" is more important than doing the right thing. The blunt truth comes out -- appearance of influence trumps even the appearance of doing the ethically, humanely or legally right thing.

#79
Sorry I tend to be a macadamia because of the time zone.

Patten jumped all over a colleague, who wasn't being accusatory, in a discussion about potential involvement in the HK airport project. I heard the "You Americans always think..." biz from Patten several times. Other than that....just a feeling.

I wouldn't extend that to say he is currently trying to poke the US in the eye, although that may be the case. I find it difficult to read people's minds (yesterday I was assailed by several Malaysian businessmen who were telling me "Bush thinks that..." and "Bush secretly wants to..." etc.). I can't even read the mind of somebody I live with, much less a Texan Yalie.

For what it's worth, I think Patten is extremely ambitious, like most political figures, fully capable of playing to a crowd, and having which you might call a "flexible" conscience. Maybe he's angling for higher position, maybe he thinks EU is the way to go.

In HK his style was much less superior than his predecessor, and he did some admirable things such as assuming office for the first time without the colonial uniform, and holding gutsy town-meetings in outlying areas. As a Roman Catholic, he is not exactly mainstream in the UK, and he had several high-profile advisors who are Catholic, particularly the popular Chief Secretary Anson Chan and Economic Advisor Leo Goodstadt, which were labeled the "Catholic Mafia". Many were impressed by how much attention Patten seemed to give to the ordinary people. I was impressed when he told one major major tycoon to "get out of the picture" when he was trying to cozy into a photo-op at the port inauguration.

Your last question... I shouldn't feel uncomfortable. The sailor and I had a chuckle with about the "sir" business.