Brain... hurts... logical... sense... lacking...

Is he saying that Saudis are too stupid, backwards and simpleminded to pull off something as complicated as September 11? I have trouble believing that, they've always seemed pretty smart to me. But if one of their own princes wants to pretend that Saudis are incapable of the complexity required for 9/11, am I racist for pointing that out?

Wait... 17 out of 19? Is this some sort of Arabic version of Fuzzy Math? Will we next hear about Saudi Arabian bank accounts that support terrorist being put in a Lockbox?

Well, one thing is for sure, the Arab world has self-destructed by emphasizing religious over secular education. Their leadership is incomparably vicious to their own people, if you think about it. They are brainwashed by religion and kept babbling about Israel and America while the likes of Prince Nayef steals everything from them. I don't think Nayef is naive, unfortunately. He and his cronies in the House of Saud are just subtle sadists compared to Saddam who is a flagrant sadist. And then there's Mubarak, the low-rent sadist. What a mess. How pathetic. Didn't these people once give us algebra? What went wrong? The answer, I'm afraid, is religion. Marx was wrong. It's worse than opium. It's PCP.

Yes, the hijackers couldn't have acted alone and without the help of a state. They were helped by the Iraqi secret service, the same people who brought you the '93 WTC bombing, the assassination attempt on President Bush, and the Khobar towers bombing. Is Saudi Arabia interested in doing anything about that?

Grr.

They're always talking about the Zionist controlled media, but what major news outlet, with the possible exception of Fox News, will even mention this latest Saudi outrage? As usual, the silence will be deafening.

Talking about the Zionist controlled media is like talking about Zionist controlled universities...

"No Indoctrination" campus website

link doesn't work, wordwarp.

Oops, bad link above.

"No Indoctrination" campus website

It seems that the Saudis have only one of Five Stages of Grief: Denial. This is a peculiar mental condition. I believe that massive availability of psychiatric help and camel-sized doses of Prozac and Zoloft as well as simultaneous withdrawal of oil revenues will take care of the Saudi Syndrome.

Prince Naif stressed that relations between the Saudi and U.S. governments are strong despite the Zionist-controlled media that manipulated the events of September 11 and turned the U.S. public opinion against Arabs and Islam. Prince Naif said, 'we put big question marks and ask who committed the events of September 11 and who benefited from them. Who benefited from events of 11/9? I think they [the Zionists] are behind these events.

He said there are more than 50,000 imams at the Kingdom's mosques who follow the official line of thinking. 'If they deviate from this line and persist doing so, they will have to find other jobs.'

Apparently, the Official Line of Thinking is that the Global Zionist Conspiracy, and the Mossad, are to blame for 9/11, and the J-E-W-S manipulate American media to spread hatred of peace-loving arabs. Somehow I don't think the 50,000 imammys in the saudi entity will have a problem towing the party line.

BTW, I would like to see a response from the White House to these allegations from our "close friends" and "allies" that the Jews committed 9/11. No chance, huh?

If you missed this gem from The Shark it's worth the read. America is always accused of being imperialistic, when in fact we're the most reluctant superpower in history. Maybe it's time to live up to our reputation.

...at the end of the day, no people has an inherent or perpetual right to any land or resources. The earth's treasures belong to all of humankind, really. Whoever happens to live on a piece of land is merely a tenant and a steward, with the obligation to both defend his possession and to utilize the resources well. And if you can't defend your land and manage your resources, somebody else will move in and take them away from you. That's how history works. Always has, always will. The Saudis happen to possess the oil fields by way of historic and geologic accidents. They don't have the werewithal to defend the territory (that falls on us anyway). It's really only the westerners who have the technology to extract the minerals in the first place. And the Saudis have used their accidental wealth in the worst possible ways -- for the pleasure of the profligate royal family, denying freedom, decent education and opportunity to their subjects, treating the women worst of all, and exporting hatred, fanaticism and terror. They simply don't deserve to hold on to the immense wealth that happened to fall into their laps in the last hundred years...

What a coincidence - I was just going to post the latest from the Shark - he went to another leftist lecture and got into an argument with an American version of Fisk:

. . . a short little middle-aged guy with an abrasive manner, interrupted me and demanded that I explain why people commit suicide bombings in the first place. I countered that it was like asking why some men rape women, it's completely irrational. He said that suicide bombings were nothing at all like rape, they were a legitimate response to oppression. . . .

"How would you respond if I were to hit you in the face?" I asked him in a rhetorical and non-threatening manner. He protested that my hitting him in the face has no similarity with suicide bombing. "But how would you respond if I did hit you in the face?" I insisted.
"I don't know what I would do if you hit me in the face" he said with fervent conviction "But if enough people hit me in the face, I would ask myself what I was doing wrong."

I asked him for his address so I could bring a group of friends over to his house so we could all hit him in the face, but he declined to give me his address and I wasn't going to press the point.

Then Shark goes on to talk about various groups of parents of terrorist victims and their responses to the perpetrators (follow his URLs) - some of them show the same emotional masochism. This extreme self-abnegation in the face of violence is not only repulsive but scary.

Rodger (#3) the Arabs/Muslims did NOT invent algebra. For details, see my write-up: The first treatise on what we know as algebra was written by Diophantus of Alexandria in the 3rd century AD...

"He noted that it is impossible that 19 youths, including 17 Saudis, carried out the operation of September 11, or that bin Laden or [the] Al-Qa'ida organization did that alone."

I love "he noted." Not "he made an argument which could convince a single other person," but "he noted, as if that statement alone was enough."

It's good to be a prince.

BLIVOTS

The only thing that spews out of the Fraudis is manure.

Since reading that Shark piece about removing the Saudi entity gave me such a warm feeling inside, I thought I'd serve up a little dessert...

Claire Berlinski's Modest Proposal

Maybe the "17 of 19" statement is his claim to two more of the murderers?

Silly Saudi princes -- always trying to fluff up their reputations.

#12 regardless of the fact that islam may have contributed little to the creation of algebra or trigonometry with out islam we would not have the information today. The western world was burning everything that was not related to the church. They were not always the idiots that they are tody.

The answer, I'm afraid, is religion. Marx was wrong. It's worse than opium. It's PCP.

Brilliant. How can we get them to overdose, terminaly, on it?

Algebra, arabic numerals . . . camel recipes.

The world is just full of useful arab contributions, isn't it?

Does anyone really think if we would be stuck with the roman numeral systems, and still figuring out how far the moon is from the earth if we didn't have those (disputed) arab contributions?

I will give them baba ganoush, though. Delicious with a slice of cold roasted camel . . .

Time for lunch.

Thanks, Kalle, I take your point. But we probably could agree that, once upon a time (the Middle Ages), Arab culture paid more attention to more constructive matters than blowing people up and forcing others to bow to Mecca. I would like to think so because other assumptions are racist.

James Zogby says that persons lacking his expertise, are keeping the "facts" away from Americans. Before you consult Zogby's "expert" opinion at the attached link, please pay due consideration to this quote from Loyola's 1540 SPIRITUAL EXERCISES: "Thou shall be predisposed to believe that that which is really black is actually white, if the church hierarchy so dictates."

www.jordantimes.com/Tue/opinion/opinion2.htm

The truth is that non-Muslims know very little about JIHAD, but the more they learn the more they understand that extreme constraints must be place on Muslim practices, including: designation of Islam as a cult; declaration that the Arab state entities are, collectively, the social-political gutters of the earth; the closure of every mosque, madrassa, Muslim students organization, action committee; execution of anyone who intentionally financed, perpetrated or served as an accessory to JIHAD.

Slightly OT but check out this article by Cal Thomas in which he talks about the need for W to stop portraying Islam as a peaceful religion...

[Link: www.townhall.com...]

The nex gem that will come out of the Fraudi collective mouth will be that Al Qaeda is actually a Zionist organization and that Bin Laden is a Jew.

#23 That would get them a ticket to the 72 virgins faster then not paying the protection money!

el barto (#17) it is not true that the infidel world was primitive while the Muslim world was refined and prosperous. For instance, most of the works that were crucial to Renaissance development came to us from the Byzantines, not the Arabs. The inventions Arab-Muslims transmitted to us from India and China would have reached us faster if that civilisation of conquest, theft, and slavery had not existed.

Rodger (#20) I have seen no evidence that the Arab-Muslim culture has been anything but a world of war, plunder, and slavery. Everytime someone points to a supposed invention or discovery of theirs and I research the subject, it turns out that they stole it from someone else. The few values they had were appropriated from other civilisations; then followed general decay and persecution of whatever free-thinker was around. They even abandoned the use of the wheel in the 15th century, according to Lewis! There is no reason to respect the religion of war.

The Arab-Muslim culture-religion has been intent on conquest, plunder, subjugation, and slavery for more than 1000 years. Ignore this at your own peril.

Solomon X:

BTW, I would like to see a response from the White House to these allegations from our "close friends" and "allies" that the Jews committed 9/11.

I think Bandar should be brought up before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to explain the Interior Minister's remarks.

News item today:

YS law requires that if the PLO does not meet its commitments, its status in the US must be downgraded.

Congress sees that it does not meet it commitments.

Bush admits it -- Then WAIVES -- that is, IGNORES -- the congressional requirement to downgrade on the grounds that it is not in the interest of US security.

Not in the interest of US security? Just how does protecting the PLO against a U.S. law benefit the U.S?

If you're looking for additional examples of american hypocrisy, look here:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

#25 Kalle
[Link: www.math.tamu.edu...]
I do not condone the actions of islamist based on the deeds of the past. I would however point out that all civilizations have times of enlightenment as well as dark ages. Technology is rarely shared anomg people and is usually pread by conquest. All advances in technology are built ontha foundation of what others have done. The greeks developed algebra the Indians gave us the numerals but the arabs put them together.

We need to force feed a story into the middle east as Mommydoc says - Bin Laden is a Yemenite jew and he is part of the ZOG.

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

[Link: www.ninevehsoft.com...]

#25, well said. Maybe if the silent majority here in the US would start shouting this sort of thing louder, the curent loud minority will be challenged to look at what they are saying and believing. Islam was spread by the sword when Mohammad (misspelling intentional this time), and it will continue to spread that way. I am aware that some faiths, such as Christianity, had dark days, but Islam is the inverse of that. They have only occasionally had light days, and that wasn't even all that bright or good. Moslems will not stop killing untill everyone on the face of the earth is a Moslem too. That is the truth of the matter, and there is no more need for discussion.
I like the Shark's plan, and can't wait to see it happen.

Faster Please... Much Faster.

mm#22:

Cal Thomas is highly respected among both Christian and Jewish intellectuals and leaders. I detect a growing intolerance of President Bush's knee-jerk statements on Islam. Bob Woodward quoted a White House insider, claiming that Bush said, "The President doesn't have to explain himself." That is hardly indicative of someone with an open mind. This leader-has-no-clothes. He endorses the loathsome Karen Armstrong's "highjack" theory of Islamic terrorism, notwithstanding Koranic ordenance of JIHAD. He restricts consultation on Islam, to the State Department holding pond for ISNA/CAIR public relations for JIHAD.

I am no fan of the religist dogma of any kind. But there is a factual basis for statements on Islam, as made by Southern Baptists, etc. Bush substituted fiction for fact when he uttered his recent veiled criticism of the Christian and Jewish allies within his "faith based initiative" organization, which has only benefited Muslims. It was hardly surprising that Arab News highlighted his rhetorical stab in the back of ANTI-JIHADIS. I would like to see some public scrutiny of the Saudi aid package that went to Afghanistan, after the Karzai entity retained sharia, last Jan. 11. I would like to know if Bush promised the Wahabis, a free hand in the social development of post-Saddam Iraq. It is a fact that it was only four days after Bush made his Texas meeting with the terror-Prince Bandar, that he announced that America would have no role in the "political development" of liberated Iraq. That was music to the House of Saud parasites ears.

Again: "the President doesn't have to explain himself." Was he paraphrasing, MEIN KAMPF?

I wonder when the Iraqis will open the Pandoras box of info on the Saudis? The regime in Bagdad must know a great deal about the links between the House of Saud and aQ. Could this be the real reason Saudi Arabia is trying to distance itself from the coming attack on Iraq?

Defenses of Arab or Islamic culture often bring up the geneology of algebra. Personally, I wish the defenders would come up with more and varied examples. Then the discussion would be more interesting.

But I'd like to cite an impeccable source, Ibn Khaldun (born 1332), writing in his The Muqaddimah. He describes the Arab/Muslim modus operandi. He is also describing their hope for the future, our future:

The Muslims desired to learn the sciences of the foreign nations. They made them their own through translaions. They pressed them into the mold of their own views. They peeled off these strange tongues and made them pass into their own idiom. The manuscripts in the non-Arabic languages were forgotten, abandoned, and scattered. Thus students of the sciences needed a knowledge of the meaning of Arabic words and Arabic writing. They could dispense with all other languages, beause they had been wiped out and there was no longer any interest in them.

el barto (#29): "all civilizations have times of enlightenment as well as dark ages" -- have you possibly been infected by multi-culturalism? can you give examples of "enlightenment" in the Aztec and Nazi culture? It is time to recognize that Islam is an evil ideology on a par with the Aztecs and the Nazis.

Re 17 and 30:

Mommydoc and Crusade Now hit on a very intriguing point. Jews have suffered for a century because of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Christian extremists wrote The Turner Diaries as a blueprint for the future, although it doesn't have quite the mainstream visibility as the Protocols.

My question: When will the hidden truths about the origins of Wahabism turn up? I believe it very likely that scientific evidence will, very soon, prove that Wahabism is a result of alien invaders sent to destroy the earth by hijacking a specific religion and using it against humans. This accounts for the utterly anti-human actions of the various groups committing extra-terrestrial violence. The groups use various names but they all spring from the same alien source.

The contours of the required human response can be found, in somewhat muted terms, in the visionary films Independence Day and Starship Troopers.

The first task is to find the irrefutable documentation of the alien origins of this plague. I'm getting close to it.

I"m gonna have to refer to Bernard Lewis' what went wrong regarding modern Islamic societies.

Divest from the saudis!

el Barto (#29) don't you wonder why you can only find 5-6 "famous" Muslim mathematicians in one thousand years of their history? and when you look at the details of what they did, they were using Syriacs to translate ancient Greek+Babylonian works as well as copying concepts, notations, and methods from India and China. Why should we have any respect for that? Do you realize that you've just reinforced my point? The Arab-Muslim culture did not produce any intellectual, creative development worthy of admiration, on the contrary. They've conquered, killed, plundered, and enslaved.

#37 -- The Nazis weren't a culture. They were a barbaric phase of German culture.

Prince Naif? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his name is a valid description.

Wonder how these representatives of the RoP would react to this article (Actually I know how they would react.):

The Forgotten Refugees...

Kalle, you've made that point well and thoroughly both here and elsewhere. Given that your historical perspective is correct, what is the practical impact of that perspective with regard to solving the modern problem of Islam?

There are no more National Socialists; there are no more Aztecs. Are we to declare the entire culture of 1.2 billion Muslims anathema, and wipe it from the face of the earth? Do we convert them all? Do we kill them all?

I'm quite curious about the conclusion to which your research has led you.

Robert Crawford wrote:

The Nazis weren't a culture.

They are now, and the idiotarian mind is their petrie dish.

#11
wow! do not let people like him procreate

#33 NA - I have been reading your posts and links for some time and find them illuminating , interesting , sometimes shrill but i always look forward to see your comments
I have said this before as have others pay less attention to what is said than to what is done
i got faith in dubya
The sad fact is that the conflict now that has been going on for some time ( thanks J Carter) will continur to go on for some time and believe it or not when all is said and done there will still be an Islam ( opinion of course)
it will not be eradicated but will have to be reformated
i do not know obviously the outcome but i think pissing on dubya here is countre productive
HG
and as a sop to the saudi's...
WHERE THE HELL ARE MY CHECKS ???
Hello ?? Mossad anyone ???

#44, Ian Wood

Though your question was directed to Kalle, I'd like to suggest something

First a quote from Schlegel:

The Arabs are of an extremely polemical nature, the annihilators among nations. The mania they had of erasing the originals, or of throwing them out when the translation was finished, characterizes the spirit of their philosophy. It is because of this that they were more cultivated, but despite all their civilization more barbarian than the Europeans of the Middle Ages. For the barbarian is indeed he who is at the same time anti-classical and anti-progressive.

Not only the Jews and Christians and Europeans have had their concepts and words and sciences stolen only to hear the theft denied. The Arab/Islamic erasure of other cultures is experienced and resented by many people in Persia, Turkey, North Africa, Central Asia, Bali, etc. Luckily the erasures are incomplete. These cultural roots are still viable and can grow again. In the future there can be other varieties of Islam than those few ascendant today.

#44, Ian Wood

Though your question was directed to Kalle, I'd like to suggest something

First a quote from Schlegel:

The Arabs are of an extremely polemical nature, the annihilators among nations. The mania they had of erasing the originals, or of throwing them out when the translation was finished, characterizes the spirit of their philosophy. It is because of this that they were more cultivated, but despite all their civilization more barbarian than the Europeans of the Middle Ages. For the barbarian is indeed he who is at the same time anti-classical and anti-progressive.

Not only the Jews and Christians and Europeans have had their concepts and words and sciences stolen only to hear the theft denied. The Arab/Islamic erasure of other cultures is experienced and resented by many people in Persia, Turkey, North Africa, Central Asia, Bali, etc. Luckily the erasures are incomplete. These cultural roots are still viable and can grow again. In the future there can be other varieties of Islam than those few ascendant today.

#41, Nazism was as much a culture as Islam is.

#44, good question. Invite them to join a world of respect for individual rights (including women), freedom of expression and religion, and separation of state and church. If they choose that path, they'll be fine and so will we. Otherwise, we'll have to keep fighting and it will get worse.

#44, good question. I posted a reply but it seems to have been eaten by the system (while Montaigne's Cat gets to be published twice).

The Muslims can choose a new path, recognizing individual ritghts (including women), upholding freedom of expression and religion, and separating state from church/religion. If they do that, they'll be fine, and so will we. If they don't we'll keep fighting and things will get worse, much worse.

Is there a problem with the system? I posted a message which didn't appear, then posted a second one which didn't appear either but made the first one appear!? (now #49). Let's see what happens with this one...

Is there a problem with the system? I posted a message which didn't appear, then posted a second one which didn't appear either but made the first one appear!? (now #49). Let's see what happens with this one...

``If, instead of 15 of the 19 hijackers, you had only two or three Saudis on the planes, does anyone in this room think that Saudi Arabia, that our people, that our faith, that our educational system would have been subjected to this severe and outrageous criticism, which borders on hate?'' he asked.

From AL-Jubbair's press conference today.

Well, Mr. Jubbair, we are left with the fact that 15/19 of the mass murderers WERE Saudi. Would you characterize that as an unfortunate coincidence?

If only 2 or 3 Saudis were part of the group, you'd be subjected to LESS suspicion. That's how it goes. Duh.

#43 Keelie

wonderful article...David Littman is the husband of Bat Yeor...:o)

#43

" There are no more National Socialists; there are no more Aztecs. Are we to declare the entire culture of 1.2 billion Muslims anathema, and wipe it from the face of the earth? Do we convert them all? Do we kill them all?"

the way you pose this question makes me laugh...

what do WE do with them.? what does a nation do with enemies who have no concept of rational critial thinking.?

how does a nation protect its citizzens from enemies who believe its a religious mandate to make the world SUBMIT to their god, or accept humiliation, or die...

why dont YOU answer your own question.?

#8   pentaxian  "It seems that the Saudis have only one of Five Stages of Grief: Denial. This is a peculiar mental condition. I believe that massive availability of psychiatric help and camel-sized doses of Prozac and Zoloft as well as simultaneous withdrawal of oil revenues will take care of the Saudi Syndrome."

LOL pentaxian!

Me thinks they do protest too much. This record is getting old an no-one is buying it. The naive, Prince Naif, is just as stupid as he looks. Must be all that in-breeding.

That's the thing. They have their terror manual in the form of the Qu'ran. Therefore, they don't need to be smart. They just need to know how to memorize and regurgitate. Anyone who can memorize the Qu'ran front to back should be able to make a homicide mission.

#17   el Barto  "#12 regardless of the fact that islam may have contributed little to the creation of algebra or trigonometry with out islam we would not have the information today. The western world was burning everything that was not related to the church. They were not always the idiots that they are tody."

You need to read more elBarto. Islam is known to have been a conduit through which knowledge from the ancients flowed. It has very little in the way of intellectual capital that was self developed. Additionally, Islam began to decline within a few hundred years of its appearance because, Islam discourages any sort of scholarship aside from that of religion. Therefore, when the intellectualism and originality of the "assimilated" peoples ran out—because they died or were forced to convert and thus could no longer be scholars—no more Islamic civilization.

Read eminent, pulitzer prize winning scholars such as those below for a start:

Bernard Lewis: The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years

What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response Tells you why the Arabs are so far behind.

Fouad Ajami: Dream Palace of the Arabs: A Generation's Odyssey

V. S. Naipaul: Beyond Belief: Exucursions Among the Converted Peoples Journey into the non-Arab Islamic countries of Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, and Malaysia. While this book is not about the Arab Muslims it is enlightening regarding the nature and impact of Islam on converted peoples.

Osama bin Laden's: Terrorist Manual:
http://www.skfriends.com/bin-laden-terrorist-manua l.htm

Nothing intellectual has happened in Islam for over 1,000 years. There is a whole thread around here somewhere that covered the contributions of Islam and the Arabs to civilization extensively.

Let's not confuse the Arabs with the Persians or the Ottomans. The Arabs don't have much to show in the way of scholarship or intellect for having been around a long, long time, the Persians and the Ottomans are a different entity.

I have no fear. Because, people are educating themselves about Islam. Books are flying off the shelves. I have spoken to people in all walks of life during the last 2 years in every place I have travelled from Asia to Europe to the US and Canada. Even the cab drivers and the shop girls "get it." They know the Arabs are consummate, pathological LIARS! The more they deny their culpability and try to make up ludicrous stories about the "other entity" who was responsible the guiltier they look.

The more we learn about Islam and the Arab/Wahhabi connection the more the civilized world will understand just what we are up against. The Islamofascist clearly want to use our technology and freedoms against us and then wipe them out completely after having set up a utopian Caliphate in the style of the 4th century. They have plenty of experience in the wiping out of cultures department.

I love that the Saudis are scrambling, desperately grasping for something, anything, unto which to pin their guilt. How about a "scape-camel"? ;-)

Faster!

#8   pentaxian  "It seems that the Saudis have only one of Five Stages of Grief: Denial. This is a peculiar mental condition. I believe that massive availability of psychiatric help and camel-sized doses of Prozac and Zoloft as well as simultaneous withdrawal of oil revenues will take care of the Saudi Syndrome."

LOL pentaxian!

Me thinks they do protest too much. This record is getting old an no-one is buying it. The naive, Prince Naif, is just as stupid as he looks. Must be all that in-breeding.

That's the thing. They have their terror manual in the form of the Qu'ran. Therefore, they don't need to be smart. They just need to know how to memorize and regurgitate. Anyone who can memorize the Qu'ran front to back should be able to make a homicide mission.

#17   el Barto  "#12 regardless of the fact that islam may have contributed little to the creation of algebra or trigonometry with out islam we would not have the information today. The western world was burning everything that was not related to the church. They were not always the idiots that they are tody."

You need to read more elBarto. Islam is known to have been a conduit through which knowledge from the ancients flowed. It has very little in the way of intellectual capital that was self developed. Additionally, Islam began to decline within a few hundred years of its appearance because, Islam discourages any sort of scholarship aside from that of religion. Therefore, when the intellectualism and originality of the "assimilated" peoples ran out—because they died or were forced to convert and thus could no longer be scholars—no more Islamic civilization.

Read eminent, pulitzer prize winning scholars such as those below for a start:

Bernard Lewis: The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years

What Went Wrong? Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response Tells you why the Arabs are so far behind.

Fouad Ajami: Dream Palace of the Arabs: A Generation's Odyssey

V. S. Naipaul: Beyond Belief: Exucursions Among the Converted Peoples Journey into the non-Arab Islamic countries of Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, and Malaysia. While this book is not about the Arab Muslims it is enlightening regarding the nature and impact of Islam on converted peoples.

Osama bin Laden's: Terrorist Manual:
http://www.skfriends.com/bin-laden-terrorist-manua l.htm

Nothing intellectual has happened in Islam for over 1,000 years. There is a whole thread around here somewhere that covered the contributions of Islam and the Arabs to civilization extensively.

Let's not confuse the Arabs with the Persians or the Ottomans. The Arabs don't have much to show in the way of scholarship or intellect for having been around a long, long time, the Persians and the Ottomans are a different entity.

I have no fear. Because, people are educating themselves about Islam. Books are flying off the shelves. I have spoken to people in all walks of life during the last 2 years in every place I have travelled from Asia to Europe to the US and Canada. Even the cab drivers and the shop girls "get it." They know the Arabs are consummate, pathological LIARS! The more they deny their culpability and try to make up ludicrous stories about the "other entity" who was responsible the guiltier they look.

The more we learn about Islam and the Arab/Wahhabi connection the more the civilized world will understand just what we are up against. The Islamofascist clearly want to use our technology and freedoms against us and then wipe them out completely after having set up a utopian Caliphate in the style of the 4th century. They have plenty of experience in the wiping out of cultures department.

I love that the Saudis are scrambling, desperately grasping for something, anything, unto which to pin their guilt. How about a "scape-camel"? ;-)

Faster!

Going way, way back...
#3 Rodger Dodger: I also thought your "religion's not an opiate, it's PCP" comment was brilliant. Is it original? If so, you should win some sort of prize. You'll excuse me if I steal it and use it quite liberally?

Frankly, I think the whole sturm und drang about whether/to what extent Islamic culture was valuable in the past is something of a dead end. Frankly, I don't care whether the Muslims invented algebra or not. I care about the expression and interpretation of Islam in its current form, and am alarmed to see that it seems to be either mostly fantically intolerant, or way too silent on the subject of fanatic intolerance.

#56, what you describe is "islamoactive decay": take any creative culture, inject Islam, and watch it rot. This painful experience has been run countless times in the last 14 centuries.

Howard #46:

After 9-11, Bush stated that the counter-terror campaign could last "ten years." Do you believe that civilized people will put up with nine more years of the type of Muslim atrocities that Charles takes note of in his daily posts? Read a week of posts at a time, and I doubt that you would want to see variations of same in your future. Generally, most people adopt a harsher attitude to Muslims, the more they learn about the Islam cult, and the lying, plundering, pedophile who founded it. In context of the current khalifa-restoration JIHAD, which has majority support among Muslims, I believe that Muslims should be prohibited from enjoying civil rights protections against self-incrimination. In fact, self-incrimination must be compulsory, and bona fide evidence, secured by torture must be deemed acceptable in courts of law. Also, the global reach of Islamic aggression, forces exemption from international-legal prohibitions against inviolability of frontiers and non-interference in the internal affairs of states. These ideas are heretical, now, but they will be fait accomplis within a year.

This is what I believe will happen in 2003. After Iraq is occupied, a quasi-"Arab-palestinian" resistance will result. Americans will learn Israel's lesson of the utter futility of civil policing and limited war methodology against a GENOCIDAL enemy. Further, Americans will be told that permanent occupation will cause staggering federal deficits. Americans will not want to hostage their future to subsidize house-breaking of primitives who subscribe to a 7th century concoction, of the unhappy sex-toy of an older woman. The piecemeal approach to the global JIHAD, will be so discredited that Americans will want wholesale liquidation of all JIHADIS.

There were at a minimum, 50,000 JIHADIS trained in production and use of weapons of mass destruction, in the Sudanese and Afghanistan GENOCIDE camps alone. The government of Egypt holds 20,000 JIHADIS in that country's jails. The common factor of all of these pigs is: they are enemies of humanity. The notion of mass execution is anathema in the West. Yet it is the only means to restoring peace. "Ten year" plans are pure folly. I forsee the mass executions of at least 15,000,000 JIHADIS on a global scale. Many of these will be members of public organizations in America. The ISNA, ICNA, CAIR and AMC are JIHADI fronts, which have facilitated and are facilitating MURDERS of designated enemies of Islam. They chose this inhumane course, and should be treated as anti-humans. The basis for execution for JIHAD crime, must be much less than proof to moral certitude, as established in a court of law. JIHAD propensity should be deemed to be proven by simple association with known JIHADIS and reasonable suspicion on any grounds, no matter how slight.

It is of the utmost urgency that Americans constrain President Bush from his deliberate alienation of the civilized states while he favors his Muslim colleagues (who he clearly views as post-presidency business partners). America, Russia, China, Great Britain, Israel, India, Europe, (Muslim-minority) Africa, and the rest of the civilized world - 5,000,000,000 people - need to unite, and join efforts in liquidating every JIHADI on the face of the earth. Nuclear blackmail must be the first resort. Non-compliant states must be annihilated. Compliant states must launch mass internal executions of JIHAD vermin, and prove compliance.

The JIHAD entities - Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - must be dissolved, and their territories occupied. In the case of Pakistan, extensive de-programing efforts must be made, to the end of civilizing all Arabist tribal cultists, and they would have to be instructed in the tenets of their original faith: Hinduism. All mosques, madrassas and designated "holy" sites on the Arabian Peninsula, must be demolished. Mecca and Yethrib (Medina) must be evacuated of all persons and anti-humans, and then destroyed by several waves of hydrogen nukes.

ISLAM = GENOCIDE
ANTI-JIHAD = JUSTICE

See: [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Are you and your children prepared to wait until 2011 for a type of "peace" that will create conditions for the next free-range JIHAD that George Bush Sr. allowed to develop, while G.W. Bush Jr. secures additional private benefit from his public office?

Howard #46:

After 9-11, Bush stated that the counter-terror campaign could last "ten years." Do you believe that civilized people will put up with nine more years of the type of Muslim atrocities that Charles takes note of in his daily posts? Read a week of posts at a time, and I doubt that you would want to see variations of same in your future. Generally, most people adopt a harsher attitude to Muslims, the more they learn about the Islam cult, and the lying, plundering, pedophile who founded it. In context of the current khalifa-restoration JIHAD, which has majority support among Muslims, I believe that Muslims should be prohibited from enjoying civil rights protections against self-incrimination. In fact, self-incrimination must be compulsory, and bona fide evidence, secured by torture must be deemed acceptable in courts of law. Also, the global reach of Islamic aggression, forces exemption from international-legal prohibitions against inviolability of frontiers and non-interference in the internal affairs of states. These ideas are heretical, now, but they will be fait accomplis within a year.

This is what I believe will happen in 2003. After Iraq is occupied, a quasi-"Arab-palestinian" resistance will result. Americans will learn Israel's lesson of the utter futility of civil policing and limited war methodology against a GENOCIDAL enemy. Further, Americans will be told that permanent occupation will cause staggering federal deficits. Americans will not want to hostage their future to subsidize house-breaking of primitives who subscribe to a 7th century concoction, of the unhappy sex-toy of an older woman. The piecemeal approach to the global JIHAD, will be so discredited that Americans will want wholesale liquidation of all JIHADIS.

There were at a minimum, 50,000 JIHADIS trained in production and use of weapons of mass destruction, in the Sudanese and Afghanistan GENOCIDE camps alone. The government of Egypt holds 20,000 JIHADIS in that country's jails. The common factor of all of these pigs is: they are enemies of humanity. The notion of mass execution is anathema in the West. Yet it is the only means to restoring peace. "Ten year" plans are pure folly. I forsee the mass executions of at least 15,000,000 JIHADIS on a global scale. Many of these will be members of public organizations in America. The ISNA, ICNA, CAIR and AMC are JIHADI fronts, which have facilitated and are facilitating MURDERS of designated enemies of Islam. They chose this inhumane course, and should be treated as anti-humans. The basis for execution for JIHAD crime, must be much less than proof to moral certitude, as established in a court of law. JIHAD propensity should be deemed to be proven by simple association with known JIHADIS and reasonable suspicion on any grounds, no matter how slight.

It is of the utmost urgency that Americans constrain President Bush from his deliberate alienation of the civilized states while he favors his Muslim colleagues (who he clearly views as post-presidency business partners). America, Russia, China, Great Britain, Israel, India, Europe, (Muslim-minority) Africa, and the rest of the civilized world - 5,000,000,000 people - need to unite, and join efforts in liquidating every JIHADI on the face of the earth. Nuclear blackmail must be the first resort. Non-compliant states must be annihilated. Compliant states must launch mass internal executions of JIHAD vermin, and prove compliance.

The JIHAD entities - Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - must be dissolved, and their territories occupied. In the case of Pakistan, extensive de-programing efforts must be made, to the end of civilizing all Arabist tribal cultists, and they would have to be instructed in the tenets of their original faith: Hinduism. All mosques, madrassas and designated "holy" sites on the Arabian Peninsula, must be demolished. Mecca and Yethrib (Medina) must be evacuated of all persons and anti-humans, and then destroyed by several waves of hydrogen nukes.

ISLAM = GENOCIDE
ANTI-JIHAD = JUSTICE

See: [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Are you and your children prepared to wait until 2011 for a type of "peace" that will create conditions for the next free-range JIHAD that George Bush Sr. allowed to develop, while G.W. Bush Jr. secures additional private benefit from his public office?

#56, Freebourne, Secularia - You point out that Islamic creativity runs out not long after their conquests, because the conquered scholars either die or convert.

#59, Kalle - in a nice phrase calls this "islamoactive decay."

One further point - they systematically destroyed the traces of the pre-Islamic cultures they conquered. Some texts were translated into Arabic, but the originals were destroyed. This is like a thief covering his tracks. Thus they could claim originality, and never have to face the fact of their secondarity or inferiority. This is exactly the opposite of the Western impulse of preservation. By preserving texts and artifacts and artworks, the West can always return to the original to deepen its understanding. It is why the history of the West can be seen as a nearly continuous series of Renaissances, and the history of Islam as one of deepening decline and stagnation.

#56, Freebourne, Secularia - You point out that Islamic creativity runs out not long after their conquests, because the conquered scholars either die or convert.

#59, Kalle - in a nice phrase calls this "islamoactive decay."

One further point - they systematically destroyed the traces of the pre-Islamic cultures they conquered. Some texts were translated into Arabic, but the originals were destroyed. This is like a thief covering his tracks. Thus they could claim originality, and never have to face the fact of their secondarity or inferiority. This is exactly the opposite of the Western impulse of preservation. By preserving texts and artifacts and artworks, the West can always return to the original to deepen its understanding. It is why the history of the West can be seen as a nearly continuous series of Renaissances, and the history of Islam as one of deepening decline and stagnation.

Freebourne, Secularia states that: "I have spoken to people in all walks of life during the last 2 years in every place I have travelled... Even the cab drivers and the shop girls "get it." They know the Arabs are consummate, pathological LIARS! "

Anecdotal evidence, but good to know and very comforting when we see our President and Sec of State publicly whitewashing every single Islamic crime against the civilized world.

I sure hope that Bush is playing a very deep game, as others have suggested, but also starts showing significant gains against the Islamo-fascists. Otherwise, there is going to be more violent responses to the continuing depredations of the Moslems.

#48 & #49, #37 (plus various attempts at posting #49)

Taken together, #48, #49, and #37 form what is to me a confusing contradiction. On the one hand, MC believes that "In the future there can be other varieties of Islam than those few ascendant today;" and Kalle believes that there is a proper path which Islam can choose that will enable it to be redeemed.

But if, as per Kalle's #37, Islam is an "evil ideology on a par with the Aztecs and the Nazis," where within the faith is that goodness which would allow its redemption?

It seems to me that, if such redemption for the faith as a whole is possible, there must be something within the faith that is not entirely evil, corrupt, and parasitic.

If I may continue the inquiry, I'd be interested to know what people think that 'something' might be.

[OK...let's try this again.]

#48 & #49, #37 (plus various attempts at posting #49)

Taken together, #48, #49, and #37 form what is to me a confusing contradiction. On the one hand, MC believes that "In the future there can be other varieties of Islam than those few ascendant today;" and Kalle believes that there is a proper path which Islam can choose that will enable it to be redeemed.

But if, as per Kalle's #37, Islam is an "evil ideology on a par with the Aztecs and the Nazis," where within the faith is that goodness which would allow its redemption?

It seems to me that, if such redemption for the faith as a whole is possible, there must be something within the faith that is not entirely evil, corrupt, and parasitic.

If I may continue the inquiry, I'd be interested to know what people think that 'something' might be.

#63 Montaigne's Cat stresses an important aspect of Islamic anti-culture: they've deliberately destroyed whatever values and history they managed to conquer, while absorbing a few parts. Why is it relevant today? we need to understand the enemy in order to defeat them. When Muslims and islamophiles claim to be a religion of peace, a great civilization, and a refined culture -- remember that the reality behind those unctuous words is one of conquest, plunder, slavery, persecution, decay, and hatred of women. Islam must either reform completely or be defeated.

Ian (#65) just consider the people apart from the ideology. Islam does not exist apart from Muslim individuals. If these individuals choose a life of love and abandon their current cult of death, then we'll be fine and so will they. I make no prediction as to the future of Islam as a religion, just about the people who believe it is their guide to life. In fact, I don't care much about Islam, as long as Muslims leave me and the Enlightenment culture alone. They can do that either by abandoning Islam, turning it into a tolerable version similar to e.g. Buddhism, or dying. Their choice, not mine. Our only choice is that the ones who stay in the jihadi path will get their desert; the others may save themselves and their children.

lgf ate my comment, again.

test to see if a subsequent post brings up the original

Great,
So it seems that just about evryone is agreed that the Arab Muslim contribution of things original and positive to world culture is approximately zero, and that they should be forced to either reform, or be contained/killed, whichever proves more practical.

Hear, hear, couldn't agree more, etc. But I am still amazed at how many of you here are letting the President and Co. entirely off the hook!

Your "underestimated" President is making excuses for the bankrollers of the terrorists, as is Colin Powell. Their wives are giving personal sympathy calls to the people who funded the the 9/11 kamikaze pilots, for Christs sake!

Sorry, there is no deep game going on there, just profound corruption from an administration bought by the Saudis. At least Daniel Pipes is saying what needs to be said.

I don't have a vote in your country, but I really hope that you as a nation have the sense to give this asshole the boot after one term, just like his pappy. How the hell he got selected over someone like John McCain in the first place has got me buggered. You as a people (the U.S) generally get it fairly right in the end, but can you please WAKE UP. Just because the Democrats are beneath contempt doesn't stop Bush being a Turkey, and a Saudi compromised one at that.

Yehudit:

Thanks for that post and link to the Shark's Blog. The masochism of the lala Left is truly mind-numbing, isn't it? The fact that some of them are Israelis and Americans who lost loved ones in terrorist attacks just floors me. The mental and emotional twists and turns people will take to avoid calling evil by it's right name,...,

The Jewish kapos of the concentration camps were much despised by the other inmates, but they had an understandable motive - to save their own skin. Were there any Jews in the '30's who excused Nazi behavior by saying that the Germans were, after all, victims of the Versailles treaty the way some leftist Jews excuse Pali murders today? If so, I haven't heard or read about it.

Kalle: my browser ate a really long comment, so here's my summary --

Ovid, Plato, old Bedouin love poetry -> Ibn Hazm ("The Ring of the Dove") et al. -> Duke William of Aquitaine et al. -> Elanor of Aquitaine, Countess Marie of Champagne, et al. -> Andreas Capellanus ("The Art of Courtly Love" -- compare with Ibn Hazm's book), Chretien de Troyes ("The Knight of the Cart", "The Story of the Grail") et al. -> all of western civilization since 1200

The Moorish poets were essential in synthesizing and developing what we moderns in the west know as "love" (of the romantic sort). Islam's only contribution, maybe, but perhaps the most important thing.

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. "
Winston Churchill

I love that quote. You use the allies that you are presented with to defeat the greater evil. It would be much more difficult to track down and locate terrorists without Saudi cooperation. Of course, the U.S. should use this to our advantage not theirs.

I've read a large number of posts on this thread that have criticized the US Government’s strategy without presenting an alternative that works.

If we are to win the war on terrorism, then all of the governments and entities that support it must be removed or reformed (preferably the former). The strategy deployed will determine whether or not it is achievable.

Think about this:

Should the U.S. be waging war against all of the countries that support terrorism at the same time? Or should we wage war against one at a time. The war in Afghanistan is essentially over. Clean up operations there will last for some time, but for the most part, I think we can all agree, that battle is over. Next is Iraq. They are a known terror supporter. They present a huge security issue in that they have known stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and are fairly close to having nuclear weapons (if they don't already). Iran is a more dangerous enemy to the U.S. and the world (an evil theocracy that is the worlds largest supporter of international terrorism.) but it appears ready to collapse from the inside. That leaves Syria, Libya, Yemen, Jordan North Korea, etc., etc., etc. Saudi Arabia is on that list, but what we don’t know is where.

One of the most basic tactics in war is to divide and conquer. If we unite all of Islam against us we will have much greater problems than dealing with the Saudi’s giving money to terrorists. If we knock down the Islamic house of cards one at a time they will all fold eventually, and it will take less time and recourses to accomplish it.

Of course, this strategy can’t work if it is disclosed to the subject nations. I can’t think of any other strategy that actually accomplishes the goal of wiping out international terrorism.

someone (#72) are you joking, insane, or a dhimmi? romantic love is a concept/phenomenon we supposedly got from the Muslims? how does that square with their atavistic hatred and enslavement of women? I suggest you read "Innamoramento" by Alberoni (1981) -- Falling Love-- to understand romantic love and its Western history. Also, seek out prof. Allan Gotthelf on Aristotelian vs Platonic Love, because... that phenomenon existed and was debated a long time before Islam was invented! Oh, and I suppose the Song of Solomon, one of the most frequently interpreted texts in medieval Europe, is not about love? Haha. You're either a dhimmi or a troll.

Sorry for the typo, Alberoni's book is obviously entitled Falling in Love. In!

#60
"These ideas are heretical, now, but they will be fait accomplis within a year."
NA - I agree with this but probably in increments
the world will look vastly different than it does now
I do think that the self-incrimination aspect will be a tough sell though as for the torture , i believe it is already occuring
Paragraph 2 -
Again as always i totally see your point and as i have said before on this very blog, and nobody likes to say it,
that there is going to be a WHOLE lot of killing done before this is over
paragraph 3 - ok this is not easy
i personally know many non-jhiadi muslims who while not as loud and united as i would like are clearly ,to me ,not jhiadi's and that is where i believe dubya is right they are the ones who will eventually either reform the religion or not
paragraph - 3
this is why i refered to you as shrill in my first post and i mean no disrespect in fact i'd love to polish off a bottle of jameson with you but listen
you cannot just throw thermonuclear devices around
agreed there are problems with pakistan and saudi arabia , goes with out saying but the nuclear door is a very serious one and i would bet my last dollar that ,perhaps unfortunatley PERHAPS , we will never send the first one
one goes off from elswhere however and all bets are off

Lastly - yes my biggest worries are for my wife and kid and the future of this world that said our president is freeely elected to be in charge and i respect this country too much not follow our rule of law , namely that he was elected to serve defend and protect this country
gotta have some faith

HG

Howard:
Glad to see you back, I was getting worried about you especially when you didn't respond to this:

[Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

77
Fay
nice to be missed
just the usual holiday stuff chanukah right after thanksgiving etc...

and nope no checks

must not have paid my dues...B^)