Sorry I couldn't make it! I have been working non-stop since Thanksgiving. Next time!

LGF representin'

Nice job, folks.

Anyone hear about Marvel's first Gay comic book?

I guess thats what happens when your sales are in the dumper and you want to bankrupt yourself and alienate your prebuscent male audience.

Can you magine being a 10 year old boy these days?

It would suck if it wasn't for playstation!

Heard, and then read about it.

I can only say, "whaaat ?"

My most sincere apologies for the source of the atricle, but here it is...

Gay Comic Hero

Wow and the comic even has a homoerotic name: "The Rawhide Kid".

Thaat's disturbing and hilarious at the same time.

hey, how do i get in on these gigs? i'm a new york workin' lgf readin' fool. who's in charge of these? hehe...

Thanks - TB

I would love to come to the next one. Do it at second ave deli, and I'm there.

I can’t believe how insensitive you are all being referring to this boy as “gay.” Don’t you know that the proper term is:"orientation towards people of the same sex" ?

Government ministers in the United Kingdom will no longer be able to use the word "homosexual" in official communications because the term is apparently outdated, reports Rainbownetwork.com.

charles,
when and where did u work in nyc

In re posts #3 et seq:

Are we morphing into a homophobic site?

And what does the Marvel comic book have to do with this thread?

Back on topic:

I thought Ms. Weiss's get-together sounded like great fun.

Makes me think we ought to get the thirty or so out-of-the-closet Jews in the Napa Valley together.

But that was tried, and we fissioned into two temples. A doctrinal dispute.

Reminds me of my favorite old Jewish joke:

Seems there was this tiny shtetl (sp?) in western Russia (pre-USSR) that was so small it only had two Jews.

But it had three temples. One for the one guy, the other for the second, and a third that neither would set foot in!

Jamie Irons

Jamie Irons,

"Are we morphing into a homophobic site?"

What does that mean to you?

What is a homophobic person to you and what is wrong in not liking gays?

Jamie Irons (#11): I wouldn't say we're afraid of sameness here at all. Unless it's the sameness of Dar al-Islam you're talking about.

I am not homophobic, but I busted a gut reading the article. I can picture yon gay hero saying "unhand that maiden", and the pose that must be present when he does it.

No, not homophobic. Just love to laugh.

GI Joe (#12):

As I am sure you are a fine person, I have no wish to get into a fight with you. But please look into your own heart when you ask, apparently in all innocence:

what is wrong in not liking gays?

And (#13) someone:

I don't think I was saying anything, or implying anything, about a generalized "fear of sameness" here at LGF. I think the Weiss gathering was evidence of quite the opposite. But perhaps I missed your true meaning.

Jamie Irons

#11, Jamie:

Do you have Asberger's Syndrome?

Just curious. Since you revealed that you come from a physics, math/chem, scientic background. You should have studied more humanities or lib arts subjects if you knew you wanted to be a psychiatrist, I believe.

Most people do not communicate via mathematics. I am picking up on a former thread in which you were proposing something like this, which made me wonder if you are quasi-autistic.

May I suggest a book for you to take a look at which you may find interesting to read: The Silent Language by Prof. Edmund T. Hall. It's been a long time since I've seen it myself and I'm not so sure it may be Edward. Anyway, the last name is Hall. It's a civilian's intro to an aspect of Cultural Anthropology. Just thought you might enjoy it.

smengie wrote:

Wow and the comic even has a homoerotic name: "The Rawhide Kid".

AAACK! I used to read that comic as a kid --- it was great. It had outstanding art, and my friends and I swiped from it when we drew our own comics. Good stories too, full of bloodthirsty Sioux and Cheyenne warriors ... and this was the Seventies, when the Indians in other books were being turned into the hapless pussies demanded by Victimization Theory.

Okay, so maybe The Rawhide Kid was gay. But no way in hell was he a male stripper, or a bondage freak. Would a male stripper ride 100 miles in two days to warn Custer, only to take an arrow in the chest just before he got there?

Bastards. Bastards. Bastards.

Jamie Irons,

Who cares if you like me.
Do you really care if people you don't know like you?

You are one of those people who thinks everyone has to like everyone else and everything, how lame and queer is that. Talk about being uptight.

Get some courage and make your own mind up and don't be such a lamb.

Jamie Irons,

Beleive it or not it is OK to have discriminating tastes.

For an individual to personally decide what they like and dislike.

To not pretend to like something that turns them off.

It is ok to say you don't like gays.

If gays turn me off I can say that, it is a personal distaste of mine.

If you don't like my personal tastes i really don't care and neither should you care.

tom wrote:

charles, when and where did u work in nyc?

I was born there, and lived in Queens Village until I was 10, when the family moved to Hawaii.

And I've been back many times since. Even played a concert with Al Jarreau at Carnegie Hall.

Charles, how strange; I always pictured you and your brother as Chapel Hill products. I don't know why.

IF YOU WANT TO GET ON THE LIST FOR THE NEXT EVENT, PLEASE E-MAIL ME. THE MORE THE MERRIER

Are we morphing into a homophobic site?

Be careful asking questions like that... remember what effect asking a question had on Will Femia. Charles and his audience don't take kindly to questions.

foobar (#17)

You asked about "Asberger's syndrome" (by which I think you meant Asperger's disorder, DSM-IV (TR) # 299.80).

Since this is a problem which becomes evident in early childhood, involves a persistent and severe impairment in social interaction, and the development of restrictive, repetitive patterns of behavior, I think I can safely answer in the negative. [You'd probably have to ask the love of my life, though, to be sure! ;-) ]

You inquired as to whether I might be "semi-autistic"?

I don't think so; I may be semi-artistic. ;-)

In the thread you referred to, I wasn't so much attempting to communicate via mathematics as to illustrate, in a kind of footnote, what I was referring to about Einstein's really unfathomable genius. [Not like I'm the first party to have noticed this! ;-) ]

At university I studied physics, physical chemistry and the molecular biology of macromolecules. I didn't know at that time I would become a physician, let alone a psychiatrist. I "minored" in English. Since then I have learned to read ancient Greek and Latin, as the poetry in those languages (Homer in Greek, Horace and Vergil in Latin) interests me. I have a small, very obscure book of poetry published; it was praised by John Ashbery.

Those are my liberal arts bona fides, for what they're worth.

Jamie Irons

hey:

I like Marvel. I think it's great they're doing this. They also revealed that "The Thing", of the Fantastic four, is Jewish. Right on!

Anil, stop instigating !

I have dropped into your site occasionally and I have noticed that you have an unpleasant habit when you are bored of instigating trouble. It's a bad habit.

Do you really think that people like Peter Noel need your help in identifying bigotry? I think that Peter is a very capable person who is well able to determine is whether there is bigotry involved. So your attitude is patronizing and demeaning toward those you are pretending to help.

Answering questions here or on other websites is not mandatory. People can ignore questions. And if you become unpleasantly disruptive, we will ignore you, too.

#25, Jamie,

I still suggest you take a look at The Silent Language. You might enjoy it. Best regards.

Jamie Irons (#16): I am ridiculing your word choice. As an amateur philologist you should know better.

They also revealed that "The Thing", of the Fantastic four, is Jewish.

They arbitrarily decided that he is, you mean. Maybe they think "Clobbering Time" is a Jewish holiday.

For the greatest Jewish comic hero of them all (from the Forties, no less) see Will Eisner's The Spirit.

I can't believe (after being the one who suggested Katz's ) that i have missed BOTH get togethers
I hate the hectic holiday season
Can't wait to attend one good job guys i get all the e-mails ( i think) and am always around to help if i can

HG

Howard,

It's alright. There are going to be more to come. And yes, you are on the mailing list.

And Glen, about the FF, I didn't know. But I still think it's cool.

#12 GI JOE,

Let's see, first you drop the totally OT info about a gay comic book character and express your disgust. [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Then Jamie Irons gently calls you on this, and you respond with [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...] What is a homophobic person to you and what is wrong in not liking gays?

Then you get really offended that someone objects: [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]
You are one of those people who thinks everyone has to like everyone else and everything, how lame and queer is that. Talk about being uptight.

and just in case anyone may have missed your point [Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...]

If gays turn me off I can say that, it is a personal distaste of mine.

If you don't like my personal tastes i really don't care and neither should you care.

What's wrong with "not liking gays" is the same thing that's wrong with "not liking Jews." It's stupid, ignorant and displays one of the worst characteristics of civilized people -- the innate, but certainly controllable, urge of insecure people of low self esteem to make themselves feel superior at the expense of an identifiable "other" and little understood group. This bigotry often leads to prejudice, which often leads to discrimination and worse.

I don't like your "personal tastes," and I certainly don't like you smeering your bigotry in my face. Please keep your disgusting "personal tastes" personal and don't share them with me.

GI Joe,

Your comments were completely off topic, but since you brought it up...

Saying that you "don't like gays" is a form of bigotry, because you are writing off an entire population of individuals whom you don't even know based upon one shared, inborn characteristic. There is no difference between that and saying that you "don't like Blacks" for being Black or you "don't like Jews" because they're Jews, or you "don't like the Japanese" because they're Japanese.

I would have no problem with your saying that the gay people you have encountered socially made you feel uncomfortable, or that you found their lifestyle distasteful - that's just being honest, and that's entirely different from saying you "don't like" certain people on the sole basis of who or what they are.

And if you can't tell the difference, then I will freely admit that I can't educate you, and I'll leave it at that.

Just the facts (#33),
Thanks for that post, it's very eloquent and I wholeheartedly agree with you.

GI Joe,
Jamie was being polite and not attacking you personally, whereas you personally insulted her. No need to get offended and defensive when someone just asks you a question.

Jamie,
I'm in SF, and Jewish (one of the few I know!), so if you have a Bay Area gathering, I'd love to know about it.

Claudia

I though Anil was banned.

I guess it was just a five-minute major.

I have a small, very obscure book of poetry published; it was praised by John Ashbery.

Praise from John Ashbery is high praise indeed, Dr. Irons. Is there any way of obtaining your book? Is it in print?

Thanks to Claudia in SF, Amy, and Just the facts for having understood what I meant to convey. You are very kind.

Note to Claudia in SF: I'm a guy! The bane of my existence growing up was that in my era everybody named "Jamie" was female except for me. (My family is mostly Scots, and "Jamie" was (is?) a common Scots given name for boys.) I learned to fight to protect my "honor." In high school and college, I played linebacker. Football fans will know what that says about one's personality. ;-)

*

Donna V.

The book is not in print any longer. It is published under my real name, which I'd like to keep "secret." I don't know how to contact you to get you a copy and still maintain my "privacy." If you can suggest a way, I'll get you a copy...

Jamie Irons

#36, Lichty:
Anil, after causing disruption, conflict, and mayhem, disclosed that he sometimes suffers from clinical depression. I found that disclosure very manipulative of him. I have lost a couple of personal friends to depression-- they medicated themselves to death with pharm.drugs and have no wish to go through all that again.

Frankly, at this point in my life, I think I'd like to avoid people like Anil. I want some peace and quiet in my life from now on. Some serenity. Some tranquility.

Although Anil is a productive member of the community. He has a job. And he sometimes contributes constructively to the internet or weblog community. He can be an annoyingly neurotic person. Like Froggy the Gremlin, he runs around and stirs up conflict and chaos. And I just don't want to be bothered with that kind of nonsense anymore. I especially don't want to get hit in the crossfire. So I think I'm going to just ignore him from now on.

Donna V. wrote:

Praise from John Ashbery is high praise indeed, Dr. Irons. Is there any way of obtaining your book?

Also, are you the author of "Fourteen Lines for Elijah by the Sea"?

When I sent Charles the link, I wrote:

So here's how you do anti-idiotarian liberal multiculti-to-the-max support-Israel musical NYC winter fun. Warning: culturally limited ambiguity-challenged heads may explode.

That was a pointed reference to the bigots on this site. I don't mind that Charles didn't print that comment, but since some of said bigots have decided to infest a thread which is about people from different cultures and lifestyles having fun, learning about each other, and making music together - all under the banner of lgf and in memory of 2 people whose lives were blown apart in hate - I think my comment is worth repeating here.

So what's the difference between you bigots and the Islamists?? Hmmm??? Do you realize that the students who died in the Hebrew U bombing would have been repulsed by you? Especially Ben:

Ben was semi-famous around Jerusalem, because he was a DJ and because he always wore a yarmulke and tzitzit [i.e. being "out" as an observant Jew] when he spun. Unlike most of us, he hung out with Israeli-Arabs, playing at their clubs, opening for their bands. . . . He said "music and Torah are both ways to approach the infinite." . . . He would announce his gigs in the study hall, ignoring the teeth-gritting of our rabbis. At clubs, he would tell people that he didn't eat unkosher food or drink beer.

Everywhere he went, he brought music — drumming on tables, tapping his feet to beats in his head. . . heading up the Pardes house band, "women, slaves, and minors," whose name was taken from a Mishnaic category that vexed many of us. Ben cared about everything. Minor injustices or inconsistencies tripped him up and he was willing to argue a point in the Talmud for hours. Little kids loved him and teenagers worshipped his baggy pants and earrings. . . .

. . . there was a huge hip-hop festival in Tel Aviv and Shaanan said everyone on that scene was there---at least 600 people. Shaanan said he started out by saying "DJ Benny B wouldn't have come to this show because it's on Friday [i.e. on Shabbat he would not be using money, electricity, or doing secular things], but he would have loved it and now we are sure he's watching it from shamayim [heaven].

Then his band arranged this jam where all they did was chant "cavod, cavod, cavod," [no exact translation in English - honor/glory/gravitas/respect are close] . . . Purple 59, a rapper who I think generally has a bit of a foul mouth, told a story about seeing a lulav and etrog [ceremonial objects for Sukkot] on top of Ben's records and being agitated about the idea that Ben was "daati." [an observant as opposed to secular Israeli Jew] He said "I kept saying 'what is this? This can't work, it makes no sense!' He made me realize how stereotyped I am." Purple 59 also said "I hope they wrote on his headstone "I don't spin on Shabbes."

Marla was a graduate of Berkeley. Yes, that Berkeley that you always make fun of. She was active in the Hillel and Jewish community there. She said:

My friends and family in San Diego are right when they call and ask me to come home [from Israel]. It is dangerous here. I appreciate their concern. But there is nowhere else in the world I would rather be right now. I have a front-row seat for the history of the Jewish people. I am a part of the struggle for Israel's survival.

Rav Landes who spoke at the concert Sunday night is a student of the towering intellectual force of Modern Orthodoxy, Rav Soloveitchik, who taught that Jews should be fully observant AND fully engaged in modern life - scientists, artists, corporate managers, not huddled in insular communities studying Torah 24/7. Landes' school Pardes is co-ed, open to all denominations, and as rigorous as any yeshiva.

Pardes. . . is on the front line of the Israel/Diaspora relationship. We are linking the Jews of the Diaspora with the State of Israel. . . . We teach Judaism. We teach Zionism. But we also teach humanistic and universal values. That is why our students bring food to elderly Jews and clothing to impoverished Arabs, just as Ben and Marla did . . . I am struggling through this week to find a way to merge Din and Rachamim, [Talmudic terms for judgement and mercy]. I look for answers even when they don't readily appear. It is the way we teach at Pardes.

Pardes has a traditional minyan (men and women sit separately and only men lead the service), a women's minyan, and a mixed egalitarian minyan. Marla organized both the women's and egalitarian minyans. Ben drummed during Hallel (a series of psalms of praise with kickass tunes we sing on certain holy days) at the trad minyan. They studied together.

Do you get it yet? Do you get it that the pissy narrow I don't like gays I don't like Arabs I don't like Jews vent vent aren't I clever I hate Clinton I hate liberals closet you live in has NOTHING NOTHING to do with my people and our struggle? Do you get that you and the Islamists are all professional haters in the same tiny dark airless dank closet?

You ugly trolls. I write a long essay full of links about these people, who were NOT naive New Agey peace-at-any-price fools, but who knew that their calling was to walk the narrow bridge between Rachamim and Din and to not be afraid, whose lives were taken by people who were as full of hate as you, and all you can do is clutter up my thread with more hate?

Jamie,

Oops, I'm so sorry! I have a female friend with your name (she spells it Jaime), so I just assumed.
Goes to show you what happens when you make assumptions... :-)

Glen Wishard asked (#40) asked:

Also, are you the author of "Fourteen Lines for Elijah by the Sea"?

Yes, I am. My cover is blown. How on earth did you find it? You must have stumbled on the "TimesTen" poets.

Claudia in SF:

No apology needed. I finally grew out of being sensitive about my name!

;-)

Jamie Irons

Judith,

Great writing about the recent get-together. I'm looking forward to more.

You rock

Well, I must say that it's ever so pleasant in here today. Is everyone just strung out because it's the end of the year and we all need a vacation, or what? What is going on in here lately?

Yehudit (#41),

Who are the bigots that you are referring to? You made the same blanket accusation on another thread yesterday (I think)? Please try to be more specific.

Judith,

#41. You're awesome.

Is everyone just strung out because it's the end of the year and we all need a vacation, or what? What is going on in here lately?

I've already told you, zulu...SEXUAL FRUSTRATION. That's all it is!

How the hell did a thread about getting together in NYC turn into a dicsussion about gay comic books and not liking gays? G.I. Joe, I'm trying to comprehend your thought process. Please clarify.

Jamie: I'm posting my E-mail address on this post (which I normally don't do) so feel free to E-mail me. I'd love to have a copy! (Although I would hold off on getting it until after the holidays - it will be a belated Christmas treat for myself!:-)

Yehudit #41,

You're my heroine, girl.

Jamie Irons -

Aha! Well, I won't blow your cover any further. But Fourteen Lines for Elijah by the Sea is a good poem, if I'm any judge. You've been holding out on us.

In this thread it's GI JOE, who is one of the people I try to scroll past. Fortunately some others on this thread are taking care of him. In the other thread - "yasmin nehru" is the latest hater to join us on a regular basis. There's always good old Ranbutan.

You want to know why me and davesax are upset? We have this wonderful evening which is kind of a glimpse of Messianic times: everyone proud of and knowledgeable about their own culture, not diluting it yet confidently sharing it with people from other cultures, good food wine music conversation, commemorating 2 people who fearlessly walked right into the middle of that ambiguity where you deeply cherish your own tribe and its lovely traditions and worldview, yet you also deeply cherish your post-modern life of hip-hop parties and Berkeley U, studying the wisdom of your ancestors yet questioning them as indeed the sages taught you to do, holding more than one thought in your head at one time about judgement and compassion and truth and faith.

Then I come here - on the thread about this wonderful evening! - and read this:

Anyone hear about Marvel's first Gay comic book?

I guess thats what happens when your sales are in the dumper and you want to bankrupt yourself and alienate your prebuscent male audience.

duh, uh-huh, heh heh heh. Right. Well, as a friend of mine said, some people you can buy them books and buy them books and all they do is eat the covers.

davesax, you rock too. Let's uphold that glorious New York cosmopolitan multi-cultural tradition. Everyone who wants to join us sign up on dave's list. But be warned there might be GAYS and MUSLIMS and FEMINISTS there. Oh my.

PS Is your cold any better? (I wasn't trying to shut you up on that other thread, I just thought it was funny you were posting so much and you were so vehement, and I had this image of you sitting in bed with crusty tissues strewn all around, bored silly yet too sick to go back to work, typing furiously...)

Yehudit (#41):
I agree with most of what you write and you painted a terrific word picture of Ben, but please don't tar all conservatives with the same brush. For the record, I'm pro-gay rights and a great believer in judging people as individuals. (Which is part of the reason I'm a conservative.) But I despise Clinton from the bottom of my heart. It's my sincere belief that he did great harm to both this country's security and to Israel during his tenure in office. Does that make me a "hateful" person?

Similiarly, I have joined in making fun of Berkeley's leftist idiocies, including the anti-Israel psychosis that runs rampart on campuses like Berkeley. Do I believe that every single Berkeley (or Concordia or SFSU student) is a loony left Israel hater? Of course not. But I don't think Berkeley should be immune from criticism, or even ridicule, when it permits foolishness in it's name. (And that goes for Trent Lott and Pat Robertson too. A lot of PC is idiotic, but being non-PC does not automatically mean you're not an idiot.)

Please excuse that double negative in my last post. I'm so congested and foggy-brained today, I'm having a hard time writing coherent sentences. And Yehudit: I don't blame you for being pissed off.

Yehudit -

I can understand how you feel, and I'll take responsibility as one who helped drive the thread off-topic --- Something that I hate myself: I hate it when the thread goes off-topic in the first 3 or 4 posts (except when I do it, of course).

I don't think anyone meant disrespect to Maria Bennett and Ben Blutstein, or any of the others who have died. It's because of people like them that most of us are here in the first place.

Glen Wishard (#51)

Thanks for your generous assessment of the poem.

Stop me though, before I read you another one!

;-)

An old friend of mine told me about a New Yorker cartoon, many years before 9/11, which I never actually saw, that portrays this guy at the front of an airliner holding a terrified flight attendant with one arm and waving a sheaf of papers with his other hand. You see all these passengers shrinking in their seats, but the caption has the "terrorist" saying, "It's all right! Nobody's going to get hurt. I just want to read you my poems!

;-)

Yehudit:

I agree with (#52) Amy, you are great!

Jamie Irons

I agree with all of you that are annoyed this post somehow went completely off topic -- I personally wanted to hear all about the LGF night out.

So if anyone was there and wants to recount their experience (in addition to Yehudit's great recap of the evening), I for one would love to hear it.

Claudia

what is wrong in not liking gays?

What's wrong with not liking gays is that we're so fucking lovable, you turd-stupid gillbreathing Darwinian holdover. Not liking gays makes as much sense as not liking big delicious slices of warm pecan pie topped with ice cream.

Everyone, I'm sorry I missed the latest get-together; as I explained to Dave Sobel, I was recently in one of those temporary spells of impecunity that others who've freelanced can identify with. But I'm solvent again, and I'd like to suggest, in the near future, an LGF Weekday Happy Hour at the Loki Bar and Lounge in Park Slope. It's an easy ride from Manhattan on the F or R trains, and has a large, very attractive lounge space in back with plenty of couches. My plan was to show up with a fistful of menus from nearby restaurants (the Peruvian roast chicken at Coco Roco is outstanding), so that folks can just drift in at whatever time they can make it after work, and order out for food if they like.

If that sounds generally agreeable, step two will be to nail down a date and time.

Jehudit (#41):

You are truly a gifted and sensitive writer, an amazing observer of humanity-in-action, and a treasure [segula] to this group.

Reading your comments (#52) about the Pardes event reminded me of a prayer ascribed to Philo:

If we close the eye of our soul,
and either do not take the trouble
or have not the power to regain our sight,
then you yourself, O Sacred Guide,
be our prompter, and preside over our steps,
and never tire of anointing our eyes,
until,
conducting us to the hidden light
of hallowed words,
you display to us the fast-locked loveliness
invisible to the uninitiate.

Free Radical

Beautiful prayer!

What a wonderful nickname you have chosen for yourself!

(But don't take too much alpha-tocopherol! Don't eat too much spinach or too many blueberries!)

;-)

Jamie Irons

Donna, you're okay with me. I guess we are what Andrew Sullivan calls "eagles" (which I think is a stupid name). I am a "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" former libertarian who hung out alot in leftist feminist and multicultural circles, but I don't like most hardcore libertarians or hardcore leftists who want to live out some romantic revolutionary fantasy. Che Guevara meets John Galt. God forbid.

One of my early influences was Paul Goodman, a bisexual New York Jewish anarchist poet who was challenging the idiocies of the 60s New Left while remaining true to Jeffersonian ideals long before anyone ever heard of Chris Hitchens. The only protest rallies I ever went on were both in DC - one was pro-choice and the other was pro-Israel.

I liked writing about the concert and Pardes as examples of haimish pluralistic committed Judaism at its best, because when people talk about Islam becoming moderate, this is a role model they can look to. For many Muslims religion is all woven together with food and dress and language and music and customs, like mine is - that's the stuff that makes us humans instead of vacuous shells, it absolutely has to be protected from obliteration by the towering crashing waves of pop culture. (I am an environmentalist too! Endangered species are not funny to me!) I totally sympathize with them on this. But you have to be able to ride that wave - you can't be brittle and grim and homicidal about it or you've lost your soul before you even started.

Jews have a genius for absorbing stuff from the culture we live in, arguing about it, making it our own, and continuing to know who we are. It's an ongoing enterprise. We have this mystical concept: "pintele yid" - a tiny irreducible point of Jewish soul that keeps peeking through the plastic pop no matter what.

I am not worried about assimilation or intermarriage. I didn't practice Judaism from college to my late 30s and most of my friends are the same. Half those children of intermarriage are going to sit up one day and say "time for me to be a Jew now" and form a whole new wave, bringing with them whatever pop culture they have 20 years from now, to collide with the wisdom of the sages and make something new but still recognizably Jewish.

I would wish for Muslims (and the French, for that matter) that kind of confidence and suppleness. If you read the Jewish press you would think we are just as hysterical about losing our unique culture as they are, but we seem to have more humor and perspective on it than they do.

Thank you for your sweet comments everybody. That's a lovely prayer, FR. I studied a few liturgical poems about the Days of Awe (from the Golden Age of Spain, people! when Muslims and Jews borrowed each other's riffs for homoerotic love raps) but I never studied Philo. (BTW all great examples of absorbing the local culture ...)

Yehudit -

I didn't know how parched my heart had become until I noticed how I was soaking up your words in #41 and also in #52. It is difficult to read all the dreck that is the news these days, and the pronouncements of our narrow-minded, constricted enemies, and not to lose esteem for humans in general. You have reminded me of a way at once higher and deeper. Thank you.

Free Radical -

I think I will repeat that prayer often. Thank you for giving it to us.

Not liking gays makes as much sense as not liking big delicious slices of warm pecan pie topped with ice cream.

LOL. Actually, pecan pie is too sickly sweet for me - can we make it home-made apple pie from real apples, maybe winesaps? Did you ever read any of Paul Goodman's gay love poetry, Throbert? Good stuff, except he's always pining after cute young men who don't want him. But he was out in the 50s - there's a role model for you.

Actually, pecan pie is too sickly sweet for me

HOMOPHOBE!!!1!

Yehudit,

I was a great admirer of Paul Goodman in the 1960's. Thanks for reminding me of him.

I have learned so much from your posts.

My wife and I worry that our four sons won't "turn out Jewish" enough, will marry out of the faith, et cetera, et cetera...

I love the idea of "pintele yid!"

Jamie Irons

Did you ever read any of Paul Goodman's gay love poetry, Throbert? Good stuff, except he's always pining after cute young men who don't want him.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I haven't even heard of the guy. But he and I are obviously of like minds; the fella from Jersey whom I'd been seeing just gave me the ''let's be friends'' speech last week. Sigh -- I had high hopes for this one. (Actually, now I'm toying with the idea of doing something Nutty and Romantic to try to get him back, but that probably only works in sitcoms. Still, I haven't done anything really N&R in years, and I'm not sure that this guy has ever been on the receiving end of something N&R...)

I feel that Jewish Culture is a Rainmaker.

When you look at what has happened in Europe, I think you can see the evidence of this.

Once the Jews were gone from the Ukraine and Belarus, they reverted back about three hundred years.

Vienna was second only to Paris for culture at one time; but without the Jews it has become a museum.

I believe that the presence of Jewish Culture stimulates and fertilizes other culture and increases the creativity of the general culture altogether.

davesax (#47)

Yes, well, that too ;-)

Yehudit,

I was not criticizing you for being angry, and I understand why you were. I was uncomfortable with the bigot comments being unspecified. It sounds like it great evening. I would love to meet all of you, and plan to do so the next time I'm in New York :-)

Jamie Irons,

You are a sweetheart, a beautiful neshomah. (The weirdest thing just happened to me, that I would love to tell you about. Freaky! I wouldn't be able to post it here, because it's too private, but while I was typing this, and because of you, I found something that I've been looking for all day). I know that all sounds bizarre. Forgive me. It makes sense to me.

zulubaby (#68):

The weirdest thing just happened to me, that I would love to tell you about. Freaky! I wouldn't be able to post it here

Well, tell me! ;-)

(e-mail address above)

Jamie Irons

Yehudit, I couldn't agree more, esp. with #41. As long time LGFers know -- ok, I just started posting on that spectacular kosher/boer thread -- I was raised as a black hatter, moved over to the kippah serugah crowd, and ended up a devout agnostic (a la Geepers). But I have a lot of respect for Pardes, which is struggling to modernize orthodoxy with life. (On a wholly unrelated note, I once played hoops with David "Bernie" Bernstein, the Dean of Pardes. My advice: watch his elbows. He travels, too, like a frickin taxi back from the airport. But a good guy.)

Zulu, I just ordered kosher biltong. Sweet! We really need to have a braai and reminisce about the old Union. Oh, that's right, I'm from Bronxfontein, not Pretoria. But I'll be an honorary Boer. Spent 2 hours at Kruger's old home -- mainly b/c it was pouring rain -- and I learned the entire sequence of SA prime ministers, including Oraanje Frei Staat and the Boer Republik. (Please ignore ignorant mistakes. I don't speak Afrikaans, as you've noticed.)

The internet does strange things to people: I suspect if GI JOE showed up at the next lgf gathering it would be happy and fruitful all around. His heart's certainly in the right place even if he did divert this thread at the beginning. For to keep a clear head in these times is much, and we've all lapsed at times.

Tolerance is a luxury, sometimes a vice, often glorious in any case, but still not the impulse one mobilizes for war. At the moment we have the luxury of waging it while still playing nice-nice at home with RoP rhetoric, peacetime civilian life, and the like; but GI JOE's excesses -- regrettable now -- are a sign of our underlying will to win if (terribly) this no longer becomes possible.

John (#70)

LOL!

I'm jealous! I want biltong too :-) Someone I know sells really good biltong (obviously through mail-order, or I wouldn't be mentioning it). I'll find out if she has a website.

You are most definitely an Honorary Boer (Jewish-style, of course ;-) I really enjoy that you know about South Africa, and all our crazy quirks!

Zulu, I'd respond in length, but I'm about to go on a voortrek. (For those who are "boered" -- bada boom -- with my obsession with Suid Afrika, I promise to stop with this post.)

Let me chime in and say that homosexuality is not my style, but neither is kosher food, and I don't care whether folks are kosher, or gay, or straight, or like to eat boerewors with toltot kaposta on the side. Give it up. (Oh, that's my obsession with Magyar food.)

Anyone know Greek? I'm pretty sure that "Boanerges" is plural, and I'm singular.

John (#73)

Vry Staat!

O.K., I'll stop now.

sheeesh - I thought it would take a "Bible-thumper" to work up a good homophobic lather. NOT!! I've not always been that way.

In my backslidden drinking days, I used to have dinner every Saturday night with a very good friend who also happened to be gay. We'd sit at the bar playing NTN (Satelite Trivia for anyone who doesn't know), dining on good food and watching out for each other's errumm interests. He would point out all the attractive ladies and I would apprise him of the guys.

Whatever!

Yehudit, it sounds like you all had a fantastic time. I can only hope that the next SoCal meet will be somewhat close. I have to think the distances here are a little greater. At the risk of sending everybody's cholesterol levels through the roof I would almost recommend the original Tommy's Burgers on Beverly and Rampart. You can almost feel your arteries hardening as you eat.

Foobar #67
I feel that Jewish Culture is a Rainmaker.
When you look at what has happened in Europe, I think you can see the evidence of this.
Once the Jews were gone from the Ukraine and Belarus, they reverted back about three hundred years.
Vienna was second only to Paris for culture at one time; but without the Jews it has become a museum.
I believe that the presence of Jewish Culture stimulates and fertilizes other culture and increases the creativity of the general culture altogether.

I must agree with you. Look at Spain and Portugal after the expulsion...

It brings to mind a joke here in Israel that is funny - even though I don't believe it's true: "Jews are like fertilizer, sprinkled here and there encourages growth and blooming, but on its own it's just a pile of sh__."

Again, I don't agree because Israel is everybut but ... notwithstanding the ex-French ambassador to UK's description of it as "that shitty little country" some months ago.

Claudia in Eilat

John, surnamed Boaneres,

a surname given by our Lord to James and John (Mark 3:17) denoting probably their fiery eloquence (Jerome) or zeal. It may, however, refer to their fervid and impetuous temper and disposition to violence (Luke 9:52-56)

BOANER'GES (bo-a-nur'jez; Gk. from Aram. "Sons of thunder," "noise," regosha, cf. Arab. rejasa, "to rumble"-- thunder).

My mother's family is Greek (Mataxas), but don’t know about the plurality.

Also:

Motorcycle Club
Christian Power Metal Band
Video Game

From Challen's Monthly 1858

“The most striking traits of his [Boanerges] character seem to be these:
He is possessed of a sound judgment, a vigorous understanding, a quick perception, considerable compass of thought, and a power of keeping his mind in abeyance until he has fairly reached his conclusions; and when reached, he holds on to them with singular tenacity. He is not satisfied with looking at a subject simply in one direction, but seeks to examine it in all its bearings and relations.
He is a lover of the truth, and is never weary in its pursuit. His thirst for knowledge is at times a passion,--an appetite--and his application unwearied and constant. This will account for the strength of his reasonings on all subjects with which he is familiar, and why he so often surprises his hearers into new trains of thought, by shedding light on some difficult passage, or presenting new views upon some old subject.
Take Boanerges altogether, he is a character--a man of mark--and but few men in the mixed and shifting population of the West has done more good. Long may he live to preach the Word, to build up the churches, to reconcile brethren at variance, to advocate the cause of temperance, and to be the friend of education. He fills an important place in the Temple of Truth, and has become a necessary fixture in it.”
James Challen

Jeez. And all I get is a Horse

And you get that too.
Boanerges Son of El Emir and Ishtar

Yehudit:

Thanks for the concern. Actually, I've been sleeping a lot, but my ears are still REALLY clogged. Today I have a doctor's appointment, where I'm sure to be prescribed the necessary antibiotics. I'm not looking forward to it. I'm allergic to Penecillin (happened my Bar-Mitzvah year, before which I would pop Penecillin with not problem), and the substitutes usually suck. However, I'll take plenty of tea and hot-and-sour soup to compensate.

:-)

Claudia:

Great to have an Israeli here. Wish you could come to one of our functions in NYC

Annelid,

Of course you're invited. Just e-mail me.

Isn't Claudia in Israel?

We should all go over there for an lgf convention, visit victims of terror and support the Israeli economy. Hey, Charles, maybe you can sell enough lgf gear to finance a charter. ;-)

davesax #79,

Oh I would truly love it!

Amy # 81

Eilat would be a great venue! Warm the year 'round.

C.

Sheesh! I turn my back on LGF for a while to build an electrical model of a pregnant female thorax--and this thread explodes out of nowhere!

Yehudit:

Rock ON, girl!

Amy, heroine just doesn't do her justice-but I fail to come up with anything better.

FR, thanks for bringing the wine! And Throbert, that's not a good enough excuse. If I drive that far again to see you, I expect you to show up!

davesax, be sure and let me know the results of your doctors visit...

And now, back to building models of submarines...

Yehudit,

I love your posts. Your writing is so inspired and passionate, I enjoy reading what you write so much and only wish I could write 1/2 as good as you (actually, I'd take 1/4, I'm not such a good writer!) :-).

In #61, you mention that you didn't become very religious until your 30's. I'm in my 20's, and, while still very VERY reformed (I eat shellfish, to the utter consternation of my kosher uncle), I feel I've been understanding Judaism--how wonderful, special and amazing a religion and culture it is--more the older I get. I will always identify myself first as Jew, and while I'm currently dating someone who isn't Jewish, my love and pride of this religion, culture, people, will be passed on to my children no matter what.

Thanks again for sharing on this site.

Claudia in Eilat,

I like your name ;-).

Geepers, I'm speechless. And I owe it all to you and Ntropy. Bless you two, and thanks.

Well, this thread may have started out nasty, but it sure turned into something terrific! Thanks, again, Yehudit! That NY meeting sounded very wonderful and special indeed.

Claudia, when I lived in Austin I was more religious than most people I knew just because I went to shul every week. Now I live in one of the epicenters of teeming varied Jewish life (think of a tropical barrier reef) - the Upper West Side of NYC. Most of my friends are more religious than me, more knowledgeable than me ... I love being challenged like this.

So - I also eat shellfish, and I take public transport and turn on lights on Shabbas. I try not to answer the phone or turn on the computer - sometimes I fail. I don't worry about it. Tomorrow night I'll be at the weeklyHadar class on Jewish liturgy, Fri night I'll be at a kosher Shabbat potluck with friends from one of my shuls, Saturday I may go to shul or I may sleep in, but I'll be at havdallah because I want to hear the speaker and it's free. If Avi G wants to wring his hands over people like me that's his problem - he should be kvelling I love my tradition like I do.

The internet does strange things to people: I suspect if GI JOE showed up at the next lgf gathering it would be happy and fruitful all around.

Especially if Throbert showed up with pecan pie. :-)
(Something tells me that's going to become a sexual euphemism and years from now we can all say it was said here first...)