OT: The LGF Ministry of Leisure, Entertainment, and Light Industry (Minleisentlind), to celebrate the overfulfillment of the five-year plan, requests all party members to attend the LGF/NYCblog Joint Happy Hour on Tuesday, 17 December, starting around 7:30 and continuing until the Messiah cometh, the bar closes, or everyone passes out from alcohol poisoning, whichever is the earliest.

Festivities are to be held in Park Slope, Brooklyn; for details and directions, email me.

P.S. Deputy Minister for Family Theme Parks Rosa Klebb says, "Dear citizens of island Manhattan! It is requested not to be pussies; Park Slope is only the short metro ride from city center. The compliance is categorically mandated!"

P.P.S. If the transit strike happens, the backup plan is to convene downtown for some looting and general mayhem -- holiday shoppers, pick up a few gallery pieces in SoHo for the unbelievably low price of bugger all!

P.P.P.S. First!

And of course they bring this up in discussing where the two Israelis were killed:

"The site also houses al-Ibrahimi mosque, where a Jewish settler massacred 29 worshippers in 1994. "

While factual, what does it have to do with the current murder?

P.S. Deputy Minister for Family Theme Parks Rosa Klebb says, "Dear citizens of island Manhattan! It is requested not to be pussies; Park Slope is only the short metro ride from city center. The compliance is categorically mandated!"

Park Slope is also the center of extreme moronic leftism. Why don't we all convene at the community bookshop on 7th avenue, or the church on 7th that hosted Howard Zin this summer as he exclaimed that Israel was born out of terrorism itself.

Thee five unarmed guys who were killed while trying to scale the fence were probably 5 labourers, just like the story says. It's a pastime in the West Bank to try and get around roadblocks and to find unoffical ways into Israel. Even soldiers at the roadblocks will tell the people to try one of the shortcuts through the open fields. It's done constantly. The border between Israel and the West Bank is as porous as a sponge.

Why these guys were shot is anyone's guess, but I don't put much faith in the 18 year old Israeli soldiers who patrol the border areas to always think and act sensibly. Some of these guys walk around with their guns like they have a 3 foot dick, and they act like it too.

What do you think happens when you take 18 year olds out of high school, give them a gun and tell them they control who comes into a certain area and who doesn't. It makes for arrogant yahoos, of which the IDF has more than their share. IT's a shame these five guys were killed because scaling the fence (or whatever they were doing) was something they probably did a hundred times before.

This agency sickens me. Have they ever issued "justifications" for this sickening bias or do they sit smugly like NPR and attack the one's who point out their bias.

Is there any truth to the rumor that Reuters is on the verge of Bankruptcy? Faster Please.

Wasn't it someone here that pointed out that Reuters is now owned by the Saudis?

Let's just rename it "Saudi Arabia's Reuters Service" and let that speak for it.

The New York Times is also emphasizing their lack of arms in the title.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Trying to find the major stockholders... haven't yet, but these are a hoot.

Why do you refer to "Arab East Jerusalem", when that's not its real name?

We call it Arab East Jerusalem to make clear this is the part of the city which is in the West Bank, was occupied in 1967 and is predominantly inhabited by Arabs/Palestinians, whereas West Jerusalem was occupied in 1948 and has a large Jewish population.

See? West Jerusalem was "occupied" in 1948. Reuters isn't biased!

Why do you refer to Sharon as the "right wing leader" and "arch-hawk" when you don't use such descriptions for Arafat?

We used arch-hawk for Sharon in the build-up to the election to describe his politics. We have largely dropped this since the election. At first reference he is Israeli Prime Minister. It is accurate to describe him as right-wing. It differentiates him from his predecessor Ehud Barak. It also helps explain why policy changes have been made since Sharon was elected and Palestinian reaction to him. We do often mention that Arafat is a former guerrilla leader.

Find me one story in which they do.

Why are you so biased against Israel? Why do you portray all Palestinians as victims?

It is said that "in any war the first casualty is the truth". To a number of people the situation in the Middle East is effectively war. We are committed to providing accurate, fast and impartial news in all forms – text, pictures and video news. We do not take sides and pay particular attention to all our coverage of this extremely sensitive region. We attempt to reflect in our stories, pictures and video the views of both sides. We do not take sides. We are not in the business of glorifying one side or another or of propagating propaganda.

Stop! Stop! You're killin' me! Ooh, my aching sides.

#2 - of course, it has nothing to do with the murder eight years later. It's just their "equivalence" argument - apparently, the Palis have the right to "massacre" the same number of Jews in Hebron.

Of course, this disgraceful Reuters Arabist did not use the word "massacre" when it comes to the killing of Jews, and I'll bet he never does, even when referring to the murder of little children in their beds.

After the last Hebron MASSACRE, my local rag also printed the Baruch Goldstein reference, and then added that "many of the Israeli settlers consider him a hero," again implying that they deserved to be killed since they admired a killer.

Roto-Reuters - All the shit that's unfit to print.

And now a word from our friends in the parallel universe ... Carter offers to "mediate" peace talks between Israelis and Palestinians.

"However, Carter gave no indication he had been asked to mediate."

Sharon has asked Carter to remain by the phone. Bush has suggested that he hold his breath until it rings. Arafat has penciled a date into his red notebook.

Alas, Carter is "disappointed" in the "current administration".

"Until President Bush, every president, Democratic or Republican, has in my opinion played a balancing role as a trusted mediator," he said. "Now, though, it seems obvious that the present administration in Washington is completely compatible with the Israeli government and they have completely ignored ... the Palestinian Authority."

Ahhh, that damn Bush! So much more needs to be said ...

#8 - Citation?

Meryl,

I found that on Reuters' website as well. Quite humorous really.

The tragedy is that by endorsing the killing of non-combatents the Palestinians have endangered those Palestinians who want to cross the line just to work.

In a war if people act suspicious on the border, shoot first and ask questions later.

OK, here's what I could find out about Reuters.

Reuters is Reuters Group plc, which is a publicly traded company listed in London. The identity of its shareholders is not readily publicly available, but according to its 2001 Annual Rpeort, the Board of Directors is the following:

Sir Christopher Anthony Hogg
Thomas Henry Glocer
Philip Nevill Green
David John Grigson
Geoffrey Arthur Weetman
Sir John Anthony Craven
Edward Kozel
Dennis Malamatinas
Roberto G. Mendoza
Richard Lake Olver
Charles James Francis Sinclair
Ian Charles Strachan

Mendoza used to be a senior executive at JP Morgan. He is a Cuban emigre of, I believe, anti-Castro views. The others I don't know anything about.

Reuters has a special voting structure to assure "editorial independence." This means that a single Founder's Share holds most of the voting rights. This Founder's Share is owned by The Reuters Founders Share Company, and the Trustees of this company are:

Leonard Terry Berkowitz
Sir Michael Checkland
Dr. Claude Neville David Cole CBE
Uffe Ellemann-Jensen
Robert Francis Erburu
Pehr Gustaf Gyllenhammar (Chairman)
Toyoo Gyohten
Jacques Martin Henri Marie de Larosière de Champfeu KBE
John Hector McArthur
Sir Christopher Leslie George Mallaby GC, MG, GCVO
The Right Hon. The Baroness Noakes DBE
Sir William Purves CBE, DSO
Jaakko Kaarle Mauno Rauramo
Ernest James Lyle Turnbull AO
Richard John Winfrey
Dr. Mark Wössner

These are the people ultimately responsible for making sure that Reuters' editorial staff can continue to disseminate biased nonsense.

Ya gotta love Roto-Reuters:

On another front, Israel pressed ahead with its legal proceedings against Marwan Barghouthi, a leader of the more than two-year-old Palestinian uprising for independence.

How about the a terrorist leader in the "Palestinian" War against Israel?

Barghouthi was captured by Israeli troops in Ramallah in the occupied West Bank in April. He insisted he was a political resistance leader, and as a Palestinian legislator, immune from Israeli prosecution. He denies involvement in any attacks.

There we go again . . . "occupied" West Bank. No hope of seeing it described as Judea and Samaria, but they could call it "West Bank" without the qualifier. Of course, if he insists he is a political resistance leader, it must be true.

At least 1,718 Palestinians and 670 Israelis have been killed since the Palestinian revolt began.

As always, the tag line. How many of the Islamic Arabs of "Palestine" were killed by their own people as "collaborators"? How many in firefights with Israeli soldiers? How many in "work accidents"?

How many times do we have to go through this???

Park Slope is also the center of extreme moronic leftism.

Ah, but the cool thing about the Slope is the noticeable difference in character between its two main commercial drags, 7th Avenue and 5th Avenue. Walk two long blocks downhill from 7th and the ratio of socially-conscious yuppies versus blue-collar Brooklyn natives and immigrant Hispanics shifts dramatically. Correspondingly, the density of ''Rally for Peace'' flyers on lightposts always seems to be a lot higher on 7th than on 5th. (The difference becomes less apparent as you go northward, admittedly.)

As always, the tag line. How many of the Islamic Arabs of "Palestine" were killed by their own people as "collaborators"? How many in firefights with Israeli soldiers? How many in "work accidents"?

Does that include bomb making?

Palestinian security sources said the men were laborers trying to sneak into Israel to find work.

Not that I'm synical but how the devil would pal security know this? Unless of course the 5 men had told pal security what they were going to do which seems unlikely unless they were actually fatah terrorists making an attack. But of course that couldn't be true because the PLO/PA operates a zero tollerance policy on terrorism...got to go - some piglets have just flown past my window

It's quite likely they were innocent civilians trying to sneak into Israel to get work. If the IDF had found bombs, grenades, or weapons, they'd have released that information.

Those five deaths, however, are on the PA's hands as well. If Israel weren't on alert for terror attacks on a 24-hour basis, they wouldn't be shooting people sneaking past the border police--they'd just stop them and ask them what they were doing.

As Ronnie said, it's a war, and innocents are dying.

Charles says:
No mention of whether the man and woman killed in a terrorist ambush were “unarmed.”

According to Debka:
Two Israeli soldiers - one man and one woman military police members - were killed in another Palestinian shooting attack Thursday night on Worshippers Lane leading to Hebron’s Cave of the Patriarchs.

One presumes they were armed, if Debka's report is accurate.

nurnurnurnurnurnurnurnurnurnurnurnurnNUR!!!

In the AP dispatch, they describe how 100,000 Palis in Gaza used to work in Israel but can't now because of "restrictions." Then they say how the Palis argue that these restrictions are unfair and are "designed to hurt their economy and force them to surrender."

Let's try to follow this great Pali logic:
1. We declare war on you and kill hundreds of you for no real reason, including those who have employed us.

2. You therefore stop employing us and stop allowing us to come to your house to get close to try to kill you.

3. By not employing us, we can't earn money and our economy is ruined.

4. Therefore, you are being unfair and it is your fault our economy is ruined.

5. We will not surrender, so you must give us our jobs back so we can improve our economy and get in close to kill you.

And you said the Palis aren't great thinkers? Makes perfect sense to me.

Ah, but the cool thing about the Slope is the noticeable difference in character between its two main commercial drags, 7th Avenue and 5th Avenue. Walk two long blocks downhill from 7th and the ratio of socially-conscious yuppies versus blue-collar Brooklyn natives and immigrant Hispanics shifts dramatically. Correspondingly, the density of ''Rally for Peace'' flyers on lightposts always seems to be a lot higher on 7th than on 5th. (The difference becomes less apparent as you go northward, admittedly.)

And I'll go one step further and say if you walk up to 8th and start walking south you will enter a very old money conservative neighborhood who also differe greatly from the leftist mentality of 7th avenue.

So you have a point, but the most vocal and populated thoroughfaire is 7th and it is littered with idiotarianism.

All the more reason to hold an LGF meeting there!

It is a tragedy when innocent Palis lose their lives...but under the current circumstances with suicide bombers, my attitude is gee that's too bad.

So you have a point, but the most vocal and populated thoroughfaire is 7th and it is littered with idiotarianism.

All the more reason to hold an LGF meeting there!

Well, now that you put it that way...

Everyone planning to attend Tuesday's Happy Hour, please show up with a torch and one of those peasanty-looking wooden pitchforks -- we'll be storming 7th Avenue following cocktails. A bas les aristos gauche!

What about a email campaign to YAHOO to stop carrying their news wire?

Reuters has changed the first paragraph to read, "two Israeli soldiers were killed". (emphasis added)

I have no doubt the original wording was written before they knew the dead were soldiers, though.

I used to live at 6th Ave and 6th St in Park Slope which was fortunately removed enough from the idiotarianism of 7th Ave. Used to drive by the WTC every day, too. Don't those nostalgic hippies ever think about the thousands killed in that building?

So let me see if I got this straight. It turns out that Reuters was actually referring to soldiers, not two unarmed Israeli civilians who got killed. And they're biased because they mentioned that the Palestinians were unarmed, but didn't specify either way in the case of the Israelis. That is, until later when they edited the story. Wait, I don't have this straight. How exactly is this bias?

And then we have this little diamond of a quote from one David:

1. We declare war on you and kill hundreds of you for no real reason, including those who have employed us.2. You therefore stop employing us and stop allowing us to come to your house to get close to try to kill you.

3. By not employing us, we can't earn money and our economy is ruined.

4. Therefore, you are being unfair and it is your fault our economy is ruined.

5. We will not surrender, so you must give us our jobs back so we can improve our economy and get in close to kill you.

And you said the Palis aren't great thinkers? Makes perfect sense to me.

There's only one problem, David. These are two different sets of Palestinians you're talking about. One is the militant sect who are basically mitlitamen by trade. The other sect is comprised of hard-working family people who would like to make a decent wage, and don't much care for the idea of punishing an entire people for the crimes of some. Oh, I get it. You must think that all Palestinians are militants who have "declared war" on Israel. I believe that, along with your sarcastic quote about 'Palis' being 'great thinkers', makes you a racist.

# 4 qwerty
You dont have to think you got a 3-foot dick to shoot at someone who is trying to cross the border from Gazza at night. Consider all that was goin on there (terrorists corssing, bombs planted for soldiers and so on) unless they have a vcery god reason to suspect otherwise, the soldiers will shoot.
Indeed, in the West Bank it may be different, where the border practically doesnt exist.
But Gazza is well-bordered, and the audacity the Palestinians have to blame the Israelis for killing those five is breathtaking.

#9
The argument that the Arabs can massacre the same number of Jews in Hebron fails, because they already massacred >> 29 in 1929. Funny that Reuters never brings up the Hebron pogrom but always throws in Goldstein. Hmmm...

#4 Qwerty

What do you think happens when you take 16 year olds out of high school, give them a bomb and tell them to blow themselves up and anyone in the area? It makes for murderous yahoos, of which the PLO has more than their share.

you guys are paranoid - where is the bias?

BongoMan

Okay, Matt, how are Israelis supposed to tell which is which? And how come the hard-working Palestinians support the suicide bombers in poll after poll? And if they just want to get to work why don't they denounce Arafat and install a moderate leadership that doesn't steal their aid money? And if they just want to get to work why do they kill at least as many of their own as Israel does?

I agree with you there are plenty of people there who just want to live a normal life. The intifada has ruined their economy. But they continue to act self-destructive. Sure that long-suffering abused wife is nice and trying to feed her kids. But she won't leave her abusive husband, and he keeps trying to kill you, and none of the neighbors or police will get him thrown in jail, they supply him with booze and ammo, and tell you how nasty you are for firing him from his job and how his poor wife is starving.

I believe in the AA world this is called "enabling."

It has previously been pointed out that though Reuters was founded by a Jew, it is nowadays anti Israel. They are in deep financial difficulties, as their primary market of real time financial data has been taken over by Michael Bloomberg's company.

With regard to mention of Baruch Goldstein. The press has for years continued to lie about the truth of what happened that day. Goldstein was a doctor who had, in accordance with his Hippocratic oath, treated both Arab and Jew. He was a devoted family man, not prone to commiting suicide. He was passing the Mosque built on a Jewish Holy Site, when an Arab who knew he was a doctor, called out to him and asked him to come inside the Mosque and assist someone who had fallen ill. This was a ruse, and when he entered the Mosque, he was attacked by a mob. He managed to extract his weapon, and in self defence shot at his attackers. Unfortunately when his ammunition ran out, the mob continued attacking him, and he was killed. There is no credible evidence supporting any other explanation, apart from the "eyewitness testimony" of the sort of people who saw massacres in Jenin, and whose concept of truth is Islamic.

I was going to pass this one by (#30) as trollbait, but it's been bugging me since I first read it. It's just not sitting right. Let's take a look at what Matt has to say:

There's only one problem, David. These are two different sets of Palestinians you're talking about. One is the militant sect who are basically mitlitamen by trade. The other sect is comprised of hard-working family people who would like to make a decent wage, and don't much care for the idea of punishing an entire people for the crimes of some. Oh, I get it. You must think that all Palestinians are militants who have "declared war" on Israel. I believe that, along with your sarcastic quote about 'Palis' being 'great thinkers', makes you a racist.

Then let's look at the quote he lifts from David:

1. We declare war on you and kill hundreds of you for no real reason, including those who have employed us.2. You therefore stop employing us and stop allowing us to come to your house to get close to try to kill you.

3. By not employing us, we can't earn money and our economy is ruined.

4. Therefore, you are being unfair and it is your fault our economy is ruined.

5. We will not surrender, so you must give us our jobs back so we can improve our economy and get in close to kill you.

And you said the Palis aren't great thinkers? Makes perfect sense to me.

Now let's look at the part of David's post (#23) that Matt did not quote:

In the AP dispatch, they describe how 100,000 Palis in Gaza used to work in Israel but can't now because of "restrictions." Then they say how the Palis argue that these restrictions are unfair and are "designed to hurt their economy and force them to surrender."

David didn't supply a URL, but I will.

He quoted the article correctly, though. So, Matt, David is racist because--why? What, exactly is he saying that is racist? Don't put words in his mouth and then call him a racist based on what you say he said. Show me the words he used that indicate he is a racist.

Because right now, your knee-jerk, PC, liberal broad-brush charge of racism is making you look, well, kinda dumb.

Sure, he was sarcastic and insulting. But last time I checked, being sarcastic and insulting wasn't racism. I see no derogatory words like "[bigoted word]s" or "camel jockeys".

C'mon, Matt. Where's the racism? Palis? Wow, what an insult. David, hang your head in shame. Insulting their intelligence? Hoo-wee, how dare you use your Constitutionally-protected right to free speech to insult people?

Or is he a racist because he is insulting Palestinians? Are we not allowed to insult anyone but white people, preferably Americans? I'll be happy to fling some your way, Matt, if you fall into that category. Or even if you don't.

What a load of crap. Yet another example of the bullshit leveled at Charles and the people on the comment threads here. Get real. Go after the real bigots and leave people who are expressing a simple opinion alone.

A roadway runs from Jewish residences in the ancient town of Hebron/Kiryat Arba, to the tomb of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jabob -- that medieval Muslim invaders turned into a mosque.

There have been many Arab terrorist attacks on Jews using this roadway, some of them lethal. So the IDF was set to pull down the houses that the snipers used as bases.

Peace Now and its fellow travelers went to court and got an injunction to forbid the IDF to pull down the sniper-nest houses until it proved the need to a (civilian) court.

Yesterday, two borderguard soldiers -- one man one woman, both aged 19 -- were killed by snipers firing from those houses.

Reuters will find a way to twist that story too -- if it reports it at all.

Matt #30,

I was going to try and criticize the more inflammatory part of your comments, but Meryl and Yehudit have beat me to it. I would just add, for that inflammatory part, a request that you be so kind as to define what characteristics of the "Palestinian race" make them different from the "Arab race", or whatever you want to call it.

As to Reuters bias... where to begin. From their website, they defend the following:

1) Calling Arafat "President Arafat" because he was elected (despite the election being a clear farce, the election having been conducted in violation of the terms in the Oslo accords, and a lack of further elections - again, as stipulated in the Oslo Accords).
2) Calling a part of Jerusalem "Arab East Jerusalem" and saying that Israel occupied "West Jerusalem" in 1948.
3) Calling Sharon an "arch-hawk" or "right-wing" leader and not calling Arafat anything at all (despite Arafat being an avowed terrorist in his past, and clear indications that he has not given up terrorism in the present).

If that's not bias, well, I don't know what is. But let me add one more. AP mentions that the Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism. Reuters refuses to call it the Temple Mount and calls it by its Muslim name. Both repeatedly and continuously mention that it is the third holiest site in Islam. Well, it just so happens that the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron is the second holiest site in Judaism - why is this not mentioned? The answer is simple: bias.

You really do doth protest too much. The 2 Israelis killed were SOLDIERS.

On the CBC National news last night they were still calling them "2 Israelis"...no mention at all that they were soldiers!

Very reminiscent of the bogus "Hebron Worshipper Massacre" story...which as we all found out later was NO massacre (Sharon said so himself)... but rather the victims were IDF troops and Israeli security personnel.

Now the Goldstein killing of dozens of Hebron Arab worshippers...THAT was a massacre.

Yes Abu Abad #40, they were soldiers. And when the fedayeen terrorists sneak into Jewish villages and kill the children they are killing future SOLDIERS. Since everyone in Israel serves in the army, they are all potential SOLDIERS. And since everyone in Israel votes for their government they are therefore responsible for all of the actions of that governments and are SOLDIERS' supporters. And if any elderly Israelis are massacred, they are ex-SOLDIERS.

That is the POV of the paleostinians. Clearly, you have not stated whether it is your POV and I would appreciate it if you would clarify.

Very reminiscent of the bogus "Hebron Worshipper Massacre" story

Actually, the paleostinians started firing on Jewish worshippers before the policemen and IDF showed up. It just so happened that the paleostinians didn't kill any worshippers and had set up an ambush for the soldiers. It may not be a civilian massacre, but it's hardly correct to call attacking civilians to draw soldiers to an ambush a just and fair action.

#30 writes:

There's only one problem, David. These are two different sets of Palestinians you're talking about. One is the militant sect who are basically mitlitamen by trade. The other sect is comprised of hard-working family people who would like to make a decent wage, and don't much care for the idea of punishing an entire people for the crimes of some.

Not quite.

"The Vast Majority of Arab Intellectuals, the Arab Street, and 80% of the Palestinians - Supported Suicide Attacks"

[Link: www.memri.org...]
 

In league with qwerty and #30 Matt I add a sad postscript...but also have to say that the dead men's families have to put almost all of the blame on Arafat and the Intifada. But, for smug Jews thinking that the amorality is all with the Muslims...think about how Eretz Israel and the creeping annexation of the Settlements plays into this.

With un-uniformed terrorists comprising a fraction of the fence-jumpers, Pal innocents getting whacked is inevitable. Dead of night, in a tank...are you going to risk not firing 1-3 shells with 2700 anti-personnel flechettes each...and see 5 possible terrorists escape into Israel proper? Of course not. If you think that they could escape, you plug them. But here is who was plugged:

Palestinians Were Desperate for Work



By IBRAHIM BARZAK : Associated Press Writer
Dec 13, 2002 : 1:03 pm ET

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip -- Unable to provide for their families, Ahmed Astal and four cousins set out for what they knew was a treacherous and risky venture. Hefting two ladders, they prepared to climb a barbed wire-topped fence to sneak into Israel and find work.

At the barrier, Israeli soldiers shot and killed them, suspecting the Palestinian men were terrorists.

Relatives said Friday, as the cousins were buried, that desperation had outweighed their fears of not surviving the trip -- an increasingly common state of mind in the crowded Gaza Strip, where residents have been driven deeper into poverty by two years of fighting.

"I told him not to leave," said Astal's wife, Wafa, in tears. "I told him we can manage ourselves with the little we can get," she said.

For a while, the Astals did manage to get by -- barely. Chickens in the yard laid eggs, food for the four children. Occasionally, Astal and his cousins found jobs farming, working construction or driving donkey carriages.

But things got worse.

About 70 percent of people in Gaza live on less than $2 a day. Well over half of Gaza's people are unemployed and many depend on handouts from the United Nations.

Some 100,000 Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank used to work in Israel, earning incomes that supported their extended families. But during the last 26 months of fighting, Israel has shut its doors to Palestinian laborers, afraid that terrorists would slip into the country along with the workers.

Astal, 35, and his cousins decided to take their chances. He told his wife before leaving home Wednesday that, God willing, he'd make it. "I have nothing to lose," she recalls him saying before he left.

Even for determined attackers outfitted with rifles, grenades and explosives, the well-guarded fence around Gaza is virtually impossible to cross. Dozens have been shot dead trying.

The five men would have known they had almost no chance. Such desperation is palpable in Khan Younis, a town near Gaza's southern border with Egypt, where Israelis and Palestinians engage in almost daily gunbattles. Fifteen other members of the large Astal clan, 11 of them children, have been killed in crossfire, relatives say.

The Astal family lives in a two-room shanty on the edge of town, an especially down-and-out corner of the Gaza Strip. Muddy sewage snakes along the sandy path to the Astals' land, given to them by a relative.

Bits of shredded asbestos hang from holes in the roof. There's no electricity and no furniture, except for a couple of mattresses and blankets on carpet dirty with sand. An old gasoline stove sits in the corner. Water comes from a pipe in the middle of the shack.

"I hope that God will help us to survive," said Astal's wife, 27. She has four children -- ages 3 to 10 -- to care for by herself now.

The four other men were newly married, and two of them left behind pregnant wives.

Before the funerals Friday, Wafa Astal cried as she looked at her youngest child, who rested her head on her mother's knee. Two of her boys played at sword fighting with a tree branch and a scrap of wood.

Relatives came to the dark shack to pay condolences, and thousands of people attended the funerals. A 14-year-old boy wrote in red spray paint on a wall near the house: "God, bless their souls."

After Israeli soldiers retrieved the bodies Thursday and handed them over to the families, a military spokesman said the troops who shot them had been following regulations.

The five men crawled up to the fence in the evening darkness, arousing the suspicions of soldiers already on high alert because of intelligence warnings that a group of terrorists was trying to cross the barrier, the spokesman said.

Thinking the five men were out to launch an attack, a tank gunner fired shells at the group.

The soldiers found no weapons with the bodies -- just the ladders.

Say a prayer for their wives and children. The 5 were as personally innocent as a 13-year old Israeli shredded by a nail bomb as she rode towards school.

#1 Throbert - Highly original!!! Loved the Rosa Klebb link.

Being an American who does criticize Israel and the "Israel above all" contingent - mostly on the Settlements & surrounding intransigence...

I would be worried about - If I was invited - akin to Tony Soprano getting a sitdown with the toney NJ "horsey Crowd" at a post race luncheon...assuming his latest horse wasn't torched...not "fitting in".

BTW - Israeli beer is lame, and gelfite fish are disgusting.

Do love lox&bagels (w/shaved red onions). Smoked whitefish, sable...decent. And, based on my associations as a "less than slobberingly dumb" mutt of Irish, subcontinent Indian, yadayada, with Jews in the hometown - get down well. (I dream still of being 16, and more of Susie Katchko, Janet Levin).

Maybe after the ME peace is done by Bush, Russia.

When we are all one bunch of happy campers...