Hopefully this guy is a prophet, at least with regard to the last sentence quoted.

Sorry, Islamoarabaddies, but the only one liable to use a nuclear weapon or start a nuclear war is you guys, for which reason the bomb must be kept out of your greedy little hands at all costs.
Only then will we be able to live - and let live (hunch, hunch).

Seeking nuclear weapons is asking the U.S. to drop bombs on them. Good job, morons.

If Allah (Yemach Shemo) wants them to have the bomb, they will receive it divinely from heaven, through his messengers here on Earth. (May they be blessed)

I dont think that these guys realize that the main reason the US is going to war with Iraq is to keep nuclear weapons out of Arab hands. I hope that the confrontation with Iraq will show everyone that the US decides who gets nuclear weapons and who doesn't.

Hopefully what GW meant when he said the Islam is a "religion of peace" is that the US will make sure that Muslims remain peaceful, by coercion.

OT, but this little speech today in Bethlehem was absolutely neauseating:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

#6 -- nauseating indeed. None of these people seem to realize that the reason that they're having such a "gloomy Christmas" is because a suicide bomber was dispatched from Bethlehem, who killed 11 people. Before that there were no troops in Bethlehem. This, of course, with the encouragement of "his excellency president of the state of palestine."

..and there is somebody calling himself a "christian palestinian" on the other thread, spouting the same BS.

I dont think that these guys realize that the main reason the US is going to war with Iraq is to keep nuclear weapons out of Arab hands.

I'm constantly amazed at how little they understand, how twisted their thinking. It's like some old Star Trek episode where they are operating in an alternate reality or something, but there is no Captain Kirk to set them straight. Whenever I read something like this that demonstrates their poor understanding of the west, and how illogical and irrational they are, I am convinced that there is no peaceful solution and that violence is the only way to stop their idiotic jihad. It's tragic and sad and maddening.

Ben Noah (#6)

I saw that story earlier. This picture made me laugh though (oh, the drama! :-)

What, no Arafat!?

How interesting that their plan is to "seize" nuclear weapons, rather than creating them on their own, or buying them like good little terroristas. I wonder if this personage envisions walking up to a nuclear power plant, tap-tapping on its door, and announcing to whoever answers, "We're here to seize your bombs (peace be upon you)."

Much as I hate to say it, I agree completely with #3 James. They keep going in that vein and I will have no reservations left in dropping whatever ordinance is necessary to prevent these murderers from getting what they want.

I struggle with writing this but after seeing the picture from zulubaby's link, (doing my best Trent Lott) I can't help but think that we wouldn't have the troubles we have today if that had been a casket instead of a chair draped with the trademark Arafish kaffiyeh.

Erik (#7)

None of these people seem to realize that the reason that they're having such a "gloomy Christmas" is because a suicide bomber was dispatched from Bethlehem, who killed 11 people. Before that there were no troops in Bethlehem.

Not to mention this:

About 30 Palestinian gunmen holed up inside the Church of the Nativity on April 2, and Israel laid siege to the shrine. Under a European Union-brokered deal, 13 Palestinians were exiled abroad and 26 expelled from the West Bank to Gaza.

Needless to say, Israel did not want a repeat of that fiasco.

The Islamic theological basis for the sermon is clear. In the Koran, Sura 19;3 it clearly states:

"But if a pagan or an infidel or a Jew shall on that day seek refuge and hide behind a tree or a rock, then the rock itself or the tree itself will call out to proclaim: "Hey
you, 'O servant of Allah, no not you Jimbo, I'm talking to Ahmed over there, come thee hither and nuke these infidels. For it is the will of Allah that they be hit not with mustard gas or Sarin, not with VX or cianide gas, nor even with genetically engineered small pox and plague, no siree, nuking it is, and thus shall Allah know that his servants have understood his teaching and are true sons of the Religion of Peace."

Sorry, typo. The name's Raunchy Ed.

heretic (#10)

Good point (bloody funny too).

Hell, let's give 'em a couple - we've got plenty.

We'll even throw in a couple of two-week timers that don't appear on the plans...

Mecca-Medina-Qom.
Atomic root canals.

The most annoying part is that Egypt is mining Uranium in... SINAI of all places...

I do have a bad feeling that Libya will get the bomb soon, possibly with their help.

Iraqi rockets sent to Syria for use by Hezbollah

Some of the equipment transferred from Iraq to Syria in recent weeks was apparently earmarked for Hezbollah in Lebanon, to be used in opening a northern front against Israel in the event of an American offensive in Iraq.

The shipments contained Iraqi rockets with a range of 100 to 150 kilometers, and possibly also various items that Iraq wanted to hide in Lebanon. In an interview with Channel Two television on Monday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon spoke of the possibility that Saddam Hussein had had chemical and biological weapons smuggled to Syria in order to hide them from United Nations weapons inspectors.

[Link: www.haaretzdaily.com...]

"...there are reports that Iraq has been trying to increase the number of Scud missiles at its disposal. It is known, for instance, that the missile cargo captured two weeks ago on a ship bound for Yemen from North Korea was in fact destined for Iraq."

who knew..?

IDF intercepts mobile phones smuggled to security detainees by being hidden in frozen chickens taken to prison

...message sent by chicken..?

ploome,

Click on the link I posted in #19 ;-)

I saw that about the frozen chickens. What the hell is that about? Trust the IDF to find them though. G-d bless them :-)

OT...

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

U.S. officials oversee most of the interrogations, especially those of the most senior captives. In some cases, highly trained CIA officers question captives through interpreters. In others, the intelligence agency undertakes a "false flag" operation using fake decor and disguises meant to deceive a captive into thinking he is imprisoned in a country with a reputation for brutality, when, in reality, he is still in CIA hands. Sometimes, female officers conduct interrogations, a psychologically jarring experience for men reared in a conservative Muslim culture where women are never in control.

...ohhh, the cruelty

hi Zulu...why arent you asleep...?LOL

my dogs woke me...:)

Zulu...regarding your link...its like musical chairs with scuds...

or as someone here described it...

remember that scene in Raiders of the Lost Arc, Harrison Ford confronted with an arab in a market, who was twirling a sword, in preparation for an attack?

and Ford watched for a while, looked puzzled, and then pulled out his gun, and shot him.?

thats whats going to happen, I think...

one scud from Hzballah...and they are all gone...

I'm sick and haven't been able to do more than nap on and off. I'm going to bed soon though. I'm just looking at the news on the 'net and it seems like there is plenty going on in Israel right now. They've killed Jamal Nader, a leader of the Al Aksa Martyrs' Brigade, Hamsa Abu Rab, local head of Islamic Jihad, I think two other Palestinians (maybe more), and earlier a Hamas roach caught in Netzarim (or close by).

Tell our dogs to shut up LOL!

..they shut up, i have to 'clean up'...:o)

hope you get better soon...

Thanks :-)

I'm going to bed now. Sleep tight.

Watch out for this troll, would you? I know I can rely on you to hammer them ;-)

Zulu...

I saw that...whining killers

all killing of Israelis/J E W S are justified and encouraged,

all attempts by Israelis and J E WS at self defense or premption are 'war crimes' or 'genocide'...endemic thought disorder...

15 yr olds are warriors and shaheeds in the mosques and in the streets; but somehow become innocent civillian children when hurt or killed, throwing rocks and grenades

They'll never get the bomb. Either Israel or USA will ensure that. After Iraq, it'll be N. Korea, and then Iran and then Pakistan and then USA is going to eyeball Russia and strike a deal so that Russia can't sell nuke reactors to anyone else in exchange for $$$ or more alternative business deals like more oil.

Maybe not in order.

JG

Can anyone imagine the uproar if some high-ranking member of the Catholic Church in South America stood up and said it was a religious duty for Catholic nations to acquire nuclear weapons?

Now, seriously folks...
I ask you... wWMD?

Iran's Russian built reactor is about to come online, but we are assured that it's reactor is for peaceful purposes only. The idea that a country with Iran's existing energy rescources needs a Nuclear reactor is so patently absurd that you wonder that anyone can keep a straight face repeating the claim.

"We see how far behind our nation is..." Do you really???

"All Islamic nations are required to seize nuclear weaponry..." Seize?? If you had spent more time on the expurgation of the Qu'ran and more time developing a civilized scoiety, you could have learned the technology to build as many nuclear weapons as you wanted. Of course, then you wouldn't need them, huh?

"Allah's messenger [the prophet Muhammed] would have prepared himself with all the resources possible in order to deal with the enemy.

[sarcasm]
Gee that sure sounds like a desire for SELF-DEFENSE, and not the lie smear that they just want to destroy the infidel (everyone who isn't muslim, or the right kind of muslim, or a women, who is incapable of really being a good muslim, as all women are whores that need to be beaten until cleansed).
[/sarcasm]

[deadly serious]
Faster Please!
[/deadly serious]

Does the worship of the nuclear bomb resemble the mutants who worshiped the same, as their God, in "Beneath the Planet of the Apes?"

IDF intercepts mobile phones smuggled to security detainees by being hidden in frozen chickens taken to prison

They should have let them go through, after suitable modification. I understand that the IDF can fix a phone so that it can give one hell of an ear-ache.

Sheikh Ala A-Shanawi emphasized, "All Islamic nations are required to seize nuclear weaponry, giving the nation the utmost respect. We see how far behind our nation is as a result of not being prepared as well as it should be, while the enemy has equipped itself with the best weaponry there is, which it will use to harm and destroy Muslims." wrote A-Shanawi

Your nations are behind because you banned the printing press for a millenium thus causing the majority of the Islamic culture to remain in the Middle Ages while the rest of the world evolved. Typical inferiority complex. We're behind because we can't kill you as well as you can kill us. How about teaching people how to read instead of teaching them how to become martyrs?

MarkD

RE: #32

Well, there's only so much oil under the ground...Either,they're only preparig for the it'll run out--or they're using it to conserve what they have...

Anyway, there is NO WAY we'll be able to do anything about it--Not with Russia behind them (not to mention the EU and China)...

Something to take a look at:

From Ilan Berman's piece, "Moscow Courts the Axis: Cooperation, Kremlin-style"
NRO's Guest Comment, 8/26/02

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

"...With Iran, Russia's relations are even more troubling. Over the past several years, despite mounting protests from Washington, Tehran, and Moscow have forged a formidable strategic partnership. Last year alone, the two countries inked at least two major arms and defense agreements, worth an estimated $9 billion, on purchases of advanced fighter aircraft, battlefield missile systems, and infantry-fighting vehicles. Not surprisingly, Iran is now the third largest consumer of Russian arms, with an annual trade of around $500 million.

Moscow's support has done wonders for Iran's military capabilities. After years of reconstruction, Tehran is now on the brink of becoming the Persian Gulf's dominant military power. And despite September 11 and Iran's support for terrorism, the Moscow-Tehran connection is still going strong. By some estimates, the Kremlin could deliver $5 billion in arms to Iran over the next two and a half years, decisively tilting the Gulf balance of power in Tehran's favor. Moscow is similarly sticking by its recently announced plans to dramatically expand nuclear and conventional arms cooperation with the Islamic Republic over the next decade — an agenda that will make Iranian acquisition of an offensive atomic capability a virtual certainty..."

And also: [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

(Via NRO's The Corner)

Here's the real story on why Christians in Bethlehem had such a sad Christmas:

[Link: www.dailytelegraph.co.uk...]

The first part of the article is obligatory claptrap about the Israeli "occupation." But keep reading - the gems are further on.

The number of Christians living in "Palestine" has dwindled since the 1940's from 17% to 1.7% of the population. They are emigrating to the U.S. as fast as they can get their hands on visas. The churches will become museums very soon (if the Muslims don't behave true to form by tearing them down and building mosques on the sites, that is).

Note the priest's statements that the situation was caused by the stupidfada and that the thinking that "Palestine" is "Muslim land" causes Christians to be treated as second-class citizens by their Arab "brothers."

Note also that he's very careful not to include the PA in that assessment; the man's no fool. Instead, he laments the lack of support of "Palestinian" Christians by the world's Christian nations. So, while the Pope noodges Israel to withdraw its troops from Bethlehem, he's ignoring the real threat to a continuing Christian presence there.

It is simply a fact that Muslims are unable to tolerate any belief system or lifestyle (or the people who practice it) which does not conform to their own. They have demonstrated over and over that they cannot live in peace with people of other faiths. Whatever the situation was hundreds of years ago during their "Golden Age," when they could afford to practice "noblesse oblige" out of a sense of their own superiority, it's no longer the case.

If Muslims are in the majority, they mistreat and discriminate against people of other faiths. (Saudi Arabia suppresses all other religions, Egypt discriminates against the Copts, the bloodletting in Indonesia has been horrific). If they constitute a significant minority, they initiate conflict with the majority with the goal of either taking over or carving out a separate, Muslims-only Allahstan, as in Kashmir, China, Chechnya, the Philippines, India, Nigeria, Western Europe, the U.S. I probably left a few more out.

These people cannot be reasoned with, and they cannot be calmed down with monetary aid. They have to be thoroughly defeated.

The Islamonazis will get a nuclear weapon and detonate it in the US or Israel within the next half-century marking the turning point of WWIII. Our war against terrorism will not yield any results until that happens because we are too afraid to call a spade a spade and too satisfied with the low level conflict that abouds today.

They will not destroy the world (although they will cause much death). However, rather than bringing us to our knees, it will spell their doom finally. The "modern" muslims attack prematurely and will pay dearly. They are much better off maintaining their low level conflict which no one seems to have the will to stop. Nukes will change the landscape (and may actually be the only thing that does).

#40 Amy, Thanks for that link and your post.

One of the things I had been unaware of before finding LGF, is the Christian depopulation of the Middle East. I have learned about it from scattered posts and links, but I am wondering if there is a defintive book or journal article on the subject? Region by region, historical, with population statistics. Is this a topic in the Christian press or in churches? Are the emigrants to the U.S. (described in the article you linked) organized and vocal, or are they quiet and hiding? If they are organized they could be helpful in publicizing a truer history of the region and a better diagnosis and prognosis of what we are faced with. (Charles' suggestion of a few weeks ago, for a montly index of all the links posted here, sounds better the more I consider it.)

We're dealing with mass psychosis. There's utter delusional denial of reality and the only way to deal with violent psychotics is to subdue them. Properly applied force has a tranquilizing effect. [Link: www.doctor-horsefeathers.com...]

I have a solution.
Special ops have figured prominently in the current war. Anti-nuke thugs are the elite commando force of the Hollywood/Madison Avenue Cultural Axis.
We can load hundreds of Greenpeace demonstrators and organizers onto C-17s and dispatch them to Libya, Iran, and Iraq. There, they can carry out the same kind of guerrilla theater with which they have been so successful in the West: blocking access to nuclear facilities, occupying those facilities, assaulting passers-by and facility employees, handing out Goebbels inspired propaganda to a credulous media and, in general, displaying why and how NGO power-freaks, er, activists, have become a fourth branch of government in this country.
Hmmm, won't work, you say?
I think it's a win-win proposal. If (by some miracle) they succeed, we will have struck a mighty blow against Islamo-nuke science. If, as seems more likely, they are machine-gunned and the survivors tortured to death, we will be rid of a major source of elitist luddite bullshit.

#34, Dr JalHampson...

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Dec. 26, 2002
Troops kill nine Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (UPDATE)
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

..its getting faster

The Arabs spent billions on Soviet armaments, to no avail. Purchasing modern and sophisticated (?) weaponry is one thing. Maintaining and using it properly, is quite something else. Iran can spend billions on Russian weaponry, but the only use they will have for it is fighting with fellow Muslims.
They may or may not point it in the right direction, but either way, it is no great threat to civilised countries.

The Russians and former Soviet satellites required US assistance to decommission and/or help keep nuclear warheads and installations safe. It is only a matter of time until Pakistan or North Korea has a major disaster on its hands and the US would do well to state clearly (now, not after the fact) that it will not feel obliged to assist unfortunate civilians exposed to radiation as a result of the inevitable mishap.

# 40 Amy,
Theres just one tiny problem with your choice of 'Islamic states'
Chechnya!
Do you know the Jewish population of Chechnya is almost equal to the muslim population?
The only person who has talked about Jihad (apart from people who take *Fuxnews* for serious and the ever decreasing group of Chechen fundamentalists )is Putin!
Now, would you take that lunatics word for it?
If you do, you should think about checking his track record a little deeper

Re: #32 + #38
DUH

They signed at Kyoto you dummy, which means that they have to cut down on pollution in a relatively short time.
OF COURSE a side product of this is the arms industry. Ask yourself how many other countries have the means to create nuclear weapons and how many among them have the gear. Dubya hasn't included them in his "axis of evil" that doesn't mean that they don't pose a threat to us. It just means that we are going to get the current list out of the way before going for the other little fishies (all of the ex soviet states for example)

#47 someone...

Theres just one tiny problem with your position

"Do you know the Jewish population of Chechnya is almost equal to the muslim population?"

this is tyical of the information I have been able to find..

". Most of Chechnya's 2,000-member Jewish community fled en masse this September, but the 40 destitute, elderly and isolated people who remain are in peril, according to Mark Petrushansky, chairman of the Jewish community in the neighboring North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz.

"The 40 Jews who remain are poor, lonely, sick and old and were unable to leave several months ago with the rest of the community. Those who remain are Ashkenazic and will share the same fate as the Russian-speaking residents of Chechnya. They will be considered enemies" of independent Chechnya, Mr. Petrushansky told the Forward."

would you have a link for the the Jewish population of Chechnya..? Thanks..

the above quote from

[Link: www.amina.com...]

OT..I cant resist...Jews in Chechnya...

[Link: www.jewishsf.com...]

much faster pleeezeee

Hey, they were still there when I last looked ;)

Hey, they were still there when I last looked ;)

What was the point of making up that statistic?

Q: What was the point of making up that statistic?
A: Because it used to be a fact.

To support this 'wild' claim, I would be happy to see the figures for the number of Russian and former soviet immigrants now living Israel.

I'm perfectly willing to let these nutjobs "acquire" nuclear weapons...

but only on one condition: in the form of... an airburst at 10,000 feet.

As for the Chechens... feh on them. My family emigrated from Bukowina in the Carpathian mountains as refugees after WWI, and knew muslims who they got along with in the area, that my great aunt referred to as "Arabs" even though they weren't. The Chechens are clearly a different breed.

I always guessed that the Muslims in southeast Europe are leftovers from the Ottoman Turks, when they controlled the region.

I'm confused as to why the Chechen terrorists all seem to have Slavic, as opposed to Islamic or Turkic names... Can anyone clear that one up for me?

By the way, for Jews interested in researching their family roots in eastern europe, this is a wonderful resource:

The Yizkor Book Project: [Link: www.jewishgen.org...]

-adam.

Re #54:
Because it used to be a fact

Huh? From the article above:

Most of Chechnya's 2,000-member Jewish community...

So there are fewer than 2,000 Muslims in Chechnya?

Or maybe when you said, "...used to..." you meant back in 14,000 BCE, when there were 0 of both groups in Chechnya?

---

To support this 'wild' claim, I would be happy to see the figures for the number of Russian and former soviet immigrants now living Israel.

How would this support your claim, and why should someone else look up evidence to support your claim?

Dude, you're not very good at debate, are you?

#42 Montaigne's Cat,

I must honestly say that I don't know the answer to a single one of your questions. I, too, have seen little bits and snippets about the Christian diaspora in various media outlets over the last year or so, but I don't know about any centralized source of information other than the Vatican (which should have its finger on the pulse of this major blow to a continued Christian presence in what JPII insists on calling "the Holy Land" instead of Israel).

# 47 someone,

Aside from the inaccuracy about the number of Jews in Chechnya, how would you characterize the recent occupation of the Moscow theater by females in veils and males in fatigues? These "freedom fighters" told their hostages that they (the terrorists) were going to go to Muslim heaven and that they were taking the hostages with them by blowing up the building. I don't know about you, but that sounds an awful lot like jihadspeak to me.

In addition, why should Russia allow Chechnya to break away? We didn't allow the South to secede from this country and fought the bloodiest war in our history to settle the issue.

And why, pray tell, do the Chechens want their independence so much? Could it possibly be because they want to establish yet another so-called Islamic republic on this poor, abused planet, in celebration of which they would promptly set about slaughtering all non-Muslims in sight?

1. Iran's oil reserves are not that robust. Under the Shah, Iran pursued - with US encouragement - a policy whereby oil would eventually be supplanted by nuclear power generation. The Russians really have no interest in having a nuclear-armed Iran on it's border. They are building the plants so they get hard currency. Iran gets alternate energy options and can put it's well-trained nuke technician force to work (Shah sent scads to the US colleges - currently many good Iranian exiles work in the US nuke industry). Assuming the Russians act as a check, Iran moderates from it's radical Shiite ways, and the US maintains a watch...I don't see Iran as a dire nuclear threat. Also, unlike Israel or Pakistan, Iran is a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty...and any urge to develop nukes as a defense measure will be largely defused if the USA defangs Iraq of it's WMD and Iran does not see Israel as a threat to Iranians.

2. We (the USA) might be able to block a country or two...but if all of Islam comes to see getting WMD as a religious duty, we are in trouble. Information Technology is lowering the knowledge barriers to nuke and other WMD. Workable nuke weapon designs are available...and Muslims have access to uranium deposits in their own countries and in several African countries that either have a signidicant Muslim population or extensive trade with. The only barrier is building an infrastructure to create HEU...More worrisome is biologicals. A good biowar scientist can construct a detailed "cookbook" and equipment list on a CD...and with a little "starter germ stock" and a CD burner...you could have little labs brewing anthrax, botulin, plague in any little village anywhere throughout Islam. That is the possible future, and it can't be blocked by the US without conquering all the Ummah by the mass death route...just to save Israel, which would be unacceptable to the world or the American public.

3. Part of what is driving the Islamists is the knowledge that it's great enemy, Israel has nuke and biological weapons and they don't. So, to achieve parity...it almost becomes mandatory ...indeed...framing it in context of religious duty. The two long term solutions are the "nuke the Muslims now" route, and attempting to avert this dangerous future ---by treaty.

The treaty would be that the nations of Islam foreswear nukes and biological warfare , chem warfare too...in return for a final ME border drawing where they accept Israels existence and border. They sign, if they haven't already, WMD non-proliferation treaties. Israel gets to keep some of it's nukes as a final line of defense of it's recognized sovereign lands, but has to pack up the bulk of its Settlers back to Israel proper. The US and other major nations sign on as guaranteers of the treaty...essentially, there to blow the shit up out of any country that reneges.

4. There is no moral force mandating that Muslims cannot seek to match Israel...that Israels WMD monopoly must be preserved by US lives...in war after war.

The choices are mass death, or a final ME agreement that that parties can live with, or at least live along with...if it must be imposed on the two sides.

That is the possible future, and it can't be blocked by the US without conquering all the Ummah by the mass death route...just to save Israel, which would be unacceptable to the world or the American public.

Says who? I rather think that most Americans would gladly nuke the Ummah to save Israel. The Ummah hasn't exactly been ingratiating itself to us lately. Will the world be less dangerous without Israel or without the Ummah? Fuck 'em.

When I say used to, I mean at the turn of the 20th century.
Even in the 1950s there were from 4 to 600 *Jews* living in Grozny.
Their movements since 1900 are similar to that of the *Jews* of Afghanistan (though) in much larger numbers.

You are obviously unaware of the problems of Russian immigrants in Israel who speak no Hebrew whatsoever and are sticking to their own. Sure, this should hopefully die out in a couple of generations, but for the meantime, the dregs of Russia are are moving in on Israel as a target for their next racketeering spot.
maybe you would care to look here (ok its a left wing journo, but hes making a point)
I think you need to sample a more enlightened viewpoint not the one that they spew out to uneducated trailer-park america.
Thats all, cos you jews are the same as the christians and the muslims: youre all up the same creek, you just need to stop fighting over the paddle.

Even in the 1950s there were from 4 to 600 *Jews* living in Grozny

To parallel the 4 to 600 Muslims?

ok?

Having read Ranbutan's crap in #58 above, I appreciate that he is no longer eligible for idiotarian of the year, so let's be charitable and award him the Idiot of the Year award.

No harm in Iran, or Muslims generally having nuclear resources ?

I got as far as #35 and have to post -

"Beneath the Planet of the Apes" is the first vision that popped into my mind (and I still cannot shake it).
All I can think about is a bunch of moronic monkeys scrambling over a nuke trying to "seize" it, anyway, I give you

Talibomb

58 -

A. my impression is that the barrier to enrichment is considerable.
B. making a functional weapon out of biologicals is alos difficult.

C. you state israel has nuke and bioweapons - i know of no widely accepted evidence that Israel has bioweapons

D. you state that the motive for an islamic bomb totally relates to Israel. This is patently false wrt to Pakistan. All indications are that it is equally false wrt to Iraq, which was equally motivated by rivalry with Iran, and by Saddams desire to dominate the region.

E. You correctly note that an arms limiation treaty between Israel and its neighbors would help. Israel has been willing to enter into such negotiations. There is no good reason why such negotiations must wait on the resolution of all the territorial and political issues between Israel and the Palestinians. That they have, is a sign of the insincerity of the Arab states in question. In any case the two neither Iraq nor Iran were parties to the Saudi peace plan, so it does not seem that such a resolution would solve the problem.

Ranbutan #58:

Assuming the Russians act as a check, Iran moderates from it's radical Shiite ways

Yeah... when apes and monkeys fly out of my Hebrew ass...

-adam.

Liberalhawk.

Nice to see that you care, but don't bother discussing signatures of Iran, Iraq or any other Muslim state or person on a piece of paper. Israelis are aware what that means, witness Egyptian state run TV after a signed peace treaty.

Amy #40 and #57

One more question regarding this remark

The churches will become museums very soon if the Muslims don't behave true to form by tearing them down and building mosques on the sites

I have been reading for the past several years that this is the Islamic modus operandi in India, the Balkans, north Africa, the Levant, etc., but again I would like to have at the ready more comprehensive information. Have you got any leads?

# 68

Try the Temple Mount.

#60 (Someone):

"Sure, this should hopefully die out in a couple of generations, but for the meantime, the dregs of Russia are are moving in on Israel as a target for their next racketeering spot.

That's a pretty grotesque charcterization of what's happening here. Actually, the recent immigration wave of Jews from the former USSR (beginning about 1988) has been characterized by extremely high educational levels and a generally high work ethic (as could be expected from immigrants anywhere).

There have been a few problems with infiltration by the Russian Mafia, but not more than in Western Europe, and this has been cut back in the last couple of years by new legislation and enforcement bodies to deal with money laundering and trade in prostitutes. Part of the big High Tech economic boom in Israel was fueled by the abundance of Soviet immigrant engineers and scientists in Israel.

As to learning the language, one generation is enough. The kids - pretty much anyone who immigrates by the age of twenty or so as well as those born here- are fairly well integrated and speak good Hebrew. The older generations have more of a mixed record with the depth of their absorption into Israeli society. Some, like the several Soviet born doctors who work with my wife in the Orthopaedic ward of one of the big hospitals here, do very well. Some have more difficulties.

But Israel is a nation of immigrants, the only country in the world where (as Ephraim Kishon wrote nearly fifty years ago) parents learn the language from their children. There's room here for all the world's Jews and a culture of acceptance and tolerance to welcome them.

#68

Try the Buddist statues that were blown out of existence by the oh-so-tolerant Taliban.

MarkD

#60 - someone

I would like to second everything Uzi (#70) said.

The Russian community came in a huge wave, and unlike other immigrant groups who were forced to assimilate, they take their time. They do speak Hebrew [with a heavy accent], but have formed their own community.

If you take a look at:
(1) the innocent civillians who die in terror attacks - most of them are Russian.
(2) the soldiers who give their lives for our country - many of them are Russian.

I may resent the fact that there is a social club that I, as a native born Israeli of middle-eastern decendency, cannot be a member of. A small minority of whiners takes advantage of those sentiments: "they get everything when we got nothing when we came here and had to dry swamps blablablabla".

One cannot deny the simple fact that the Russian immigration is the critical blood infusion Israel desperately needed.
I don't know where we would be today if it were'nt for them!

"But Israel is a nation of immigrants, the only country in the world where (as Ephraim Kishon wrote nearly fifty years ago) parents learn the language from their children. There's room here for all the world's Jews and a culture of acceptance and tolerance to welcome them."

A qubble - parents learn the language from their children in the US, Australia and other immigrant countries. IIRC the quote is that Israel is the only country where parents learn THEIR MOTHER TONGUE from their children.

"I may resent the fact that there is a social club that I, as a native born Israeli of middle-eastern decendency, cannot be a member of. A small minority of whiners takes advantage of those sentiments: "they get everything when we got nothing when we came here and had to dry swamps blablablabla"."

if i was a "native born Israeli of middle-eastern decendency" i suppose the people i would resent would be the old labour elite, rather than the Russians. which troubles me, as i am generally more sympathetic to the politics of the old elite than to the Likudniks.

So what do Israelis of middle eastern background really think of the Mitzna candidacy?? Some press reports indicate that some mizrahi really think Fuad was betrayed by racists - of course that could just be Fuad loyalists within Labor?? do you and people you know have an opnion, or are you too down on Labor anyway to care?

#68 - Montaigne's Cat

I would like to recommend:
South Asia Analysis Group

#65 - liberalhawk

A. Unfortunately, the road to enrichment is easier thanks to newer technology.

B. "Making a functional weapon out of biologicals is also difficult." While what you wrote is correct, it applies to the old way of making war [missiles etc] and not to the new ways [terrorism]. If you have a nation willing to sacrifice itself for the sake of victory, finding "mules" who will carry the disease to the enemy is relatively easy.

C. Israel has a very sophisticated research facility for bioweapons. However, the bioweapons are a "poor man's nuclear bomb" and of little strategic value for a country that may have up to 400 nukes in it's possesion.
Israel does develop bioweapons - for the purpose of learning how to counter the viruses/germs and create vaccines. There is also the question of strategic analysis of the threat that certain viruses/germs constitute.

D. & E. I agree with you. I don't like politicians being in possesion of WMD unless absolutely necessary, not to mention the huge financial costs that this involves. However for now I believe that this is necessary considering how arab leaders such as Saddam do not hesitate to use them on their population.

#74 - liberalhawk

But I do resent the old labour elite :-)

Some press reports indicate that some mizrahi really think Fuad was betrayed by racists

That is correct, the question is to which extent considering Fuad's leadership skills. I have heard of people on the mizrahi street, even sworn Likudniks, who would vote for labour if he were in charge. Some form of sectarian pride.

So what do Israelis of middle eastern background really think of the Mitzna candidacy?

No one [mizrachi/ashkenazi] knows who this guy is and if he isn't really an alien.
He also sends conflicting messages to the public so everyone is even more confused.
The right usually refers to him as "a Bailin with a beard",
I think even he doesn't know what his agenda is.

...which troubles me, as i am generally more sympathetic to the politics of the old elite than to the Likudniks.

Labour brought a catastrophe on Israel in Oslo, and even worse, the political process behind it was so outrageous, it tore the nation apart. Labour will [and should be] punished for it in the elections.

But the Likud is, as of now, a Sharon dictatorship. And Sharon speaks like the left, and not like his party.
If Sharon says he will establish a palestinian state -
you better believe him, for better or worse.
History has proven that when a right wing leader speaks like a leftist, he means business.
Some brief examples:
The Likud dismantled the Yamit settlement in the Sinai and gave that territory back for peace with Egypt.
Netanyahu honored the Oslo accords and gave Hebron over the palestinians.
Keep in mind that only the right wing can give concessions to the arabs without being blamed for treason, and while maintaining concensus within Israeli society.
Furthermore, Sharon is a member of the old elite himself!!! a political refugee of the "Mapai" party, the mythological ancestor of Labour.

I have argued in vain over and over again with LGFers that the "left vs. right" debate in Israel is a PR fraud.
Israelies [and usually jews for that matter] are inherently liberals leaning to the left, it has to do with the tragic jewish history with the right wing,
as well as to thousands of years old relegious issues of searching for the Messiah & the peace that he will bring with him.

#68 Montaigne's Cat,

The answer to your question is, "No." But I see that others have kindly come to my aid and suggested some leads.

I haven't done the research on this issue, but I have no doubt that the information is out there if you want to take the time to do some digging.

Start with Google and put in "Middle East + Christians" and see what you come up with. You can then add "emigration" or "Christian holy sites" and see if you come up with anything additional. There are probably websites that deal with this.

Try Googling Joseph Farah - he's a Lebanese Christian who deals with this subject as well.

OK - I did some research for you, Montaigne's Cat. It took all of about 3 minutes:

[Link: www.arabicbible.com...]

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

[Link: etools.ncol.com...]

That should get you started.

That third link doesn't seem to work; sorry about that. But if you click on the banner at the top of World Net Daily (Farah's site), it'll take you to something called VOM (Voice of the Martyrs), which deals with the persecution of Christians in all parts of the world and offers a free newsletter.

#65 - Your comments were adressed fairly well by Nomad33 in Post #75...so all I have are some adders.

HEU is becoming easier by the year. In addition to the calutrons, gaseous diffusion, and gas centrifuge methods...laser computer controlled isotopic separation, nanotech materials separation, advanced reverse osmosis membranes lie in the not too distant future. This of course, is on top of just succeeding in blocking the quest radical Islamists have to just buy the stuff...

I believe a few years back we had a US "demonstration" team that managed to construct a working anthrax weapons-grade spore factory from commercially available parts, supplies and 50,000 dollars when tasked with "proving" it could be done. Get a "state player" or rogue scientist in a place like Syria, N Korea, Iran, Pakis, with decades of experience in biowar willing to spin out a few hundred CD "cookbooks", a little starter stock in a test tube ...and there is no terrorist or state wannabe "learning curve". Add in Genetic Engineering and there is no long-standing barrier to a real Satan Bug other than deterrance by nuclear annihilation.

On your last points, "D&E"...our efforts to block Arab WMD cannot rely on the US playing "whack a mole" from Morocco to Indonesia for the next 3 generations just to ensure a strategic military imbalance in the ME stays that way. Arms control folks talk about the natural, inevitable pursuit and achievement of parity. The US-Soviet Arms race is a textbook example - one side pills ahead, the other matches it, as was the battleship race of 1900-1914, as was the air power race 1920-1939.

To stop the first arms race of the 21st Century, we have to either kill what's left of Islamic Civ, N Korea - or go with a treaties. Every month this is delayed (either way) makes it more difficult. Yes, Israel has offered to talk about limits, yes, the Pakis did nukes to both gain prestige and counter India, yes, the Iraqis wanted WMD partially to take on Iran...but now the realization is setting in that the solution is not on the US's shoulders to cast JDAMs on 1.3 billion people of the Ummah, or take on multi-million deaths in a War on the Korean Peninsula.

My personal guess is that we will take Iraq soon, but that we will lose more soldiers than in Gulf War I, lose some (possibly many) to Saddams last gasp WMD terrorism, and that we will find difficulty in Iraq military governance intially because the US is not seen as "unbiased" regarding the ME.

Then, the next phase will be getting Iran to be less adventuresome along with the final push for a permanent ME solution.

That solution now has to ensure that limits to Israel's nukes usage are clearly defined, that the Arabs face reality and quit their WMD quest - or confront imminent destruction & abject humiliation; they recognize Israel by formal treaty that also requires them to cease all support of proxy assymetrical warfare by terrorist proxies. Recognize the World is no longer patient with the minor squabbles of the Pals or Israelis blocking a solution, nor will the US be - after taking several thousand deaths to defang Iraq.

I personally expect the final push to happen in late 2003, early 2004...with the US not taking heed to either an Israeli or Saudi "veto" but tying the ME solution to helping end the WoT.

Well, the Israelis are going on with their lives despite the threats, as the following amply illustrates:

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

I especially love the doggy's name - Shnoopy. :-D

It seems that the Israelis care more about their dogs than the Palestinians care about their children.

Amy - thanks very much.

nomad 33 - also, thanks.

A few days ago, on a thread about the French, I made a lame joke about the Notre Dame being a mosque in some horrid future. Somebody responded and asked me What-the-hell-are-you talking-about, and I didn't have anything concrete to reply. Next time, I will.

I'm awfully late to this thread, but I want to say that I completely agree with J. Lichty's (#41) first paragraph and completely disagree with his second.

Because our enemy is irrational, nuclear attacks on America and Israel are a fait accompli. The only way to "deter" an atomic attack by Islamofascists is to physically prevent it, by keeping the weapons out of their hands or confiscating them before they can be used. And it's ludicrous to think that we can succeed at that forever. Frankly, I think J's time horizon of 50 years is optimistic.

That said, I have no doubt that when the fateful day comes, our response will be scrupulously proportional--probably keyed to causing a similar number of casualties as were caused in the initial attack. Even though the economic damage to our country from their bomb will be far, far greater than the damage we'll do with ours, I guarantee you that there will be no mass retaliation. I mean, Jesus Christ--we're still waiting for UN approval to attack Saddam. Do you really see any U.S. president (especially a Democrat) deciding to throw world opinion to the wind and carpet-nuke the Middle East?

The only way I can see a large-scale retaliation happening is if a high-yield nuclear weapon is detonated in a major Israeli city (read: Tel Aviv). If the damage from the blast is such that it looks like Israel as a nation might not survive, a prime minister with the proper disposition (read: Sharon) might decide to take the rest of the region down with him. Here's hoping we never find out.

#82 Montaigne's Cat,

Next time you can send them here... a glimpse into the future of France.

PDM - got that one from #84 made into post cards yet?

#85 NTropy,

Sorry to say... not yet :(
Honestly, that's just a repeat from my reserves. I don't have much fresh material lately. I've been busy training my son for jihad. Well, actually just spending a lot of (dirty) play time in the back yard. :)

My biggest problem with the reactor plants being built in Iran is that they are of the RBMK-1000 type. This is bad for two reasons:

1. It's the same reactor plant as was in operation at Chernobyl. A graphite moderated boiling water reactor with a positive temperature coefficient of reactivity isn't - by definition - exactly stable, and its dozens of control rods must be fiddled with constantly in order to keep the thing "safe." Need I even mention the literally tens of thousands of square feet of surface area from all of the coolant channels that are all considered a vital part of the pressure boundary, and whose failure could cause a serious casualty?

2. The RBMK-1000's primary purpose is the production of plutonium. The electricity generated is just gravy.

If all they wanted was a non-fossil fuel source of electricity, why didn't they build a much safer and more reliable pressurized water reactor instead?

#80 - Ranbutan

Thanks! Finally we agree over something :-)
Your nukes knowledge is overwhelming by the way...

#84 - PDM

LOL!
The Jihad-boy link does'nt work though.

#87 - J. Austin Wilde

Same as Chernobyl?!
Damn that's scary...

#87

RBMK-1000 plants are pretty good, actually. The design was proven, tested over years... and the Soviets were so confident in the engineering and quality of materials put into the plants that they arrogantly decided to omit containment buildings.

Design vulnerabilities exist in graphite-moderated reactors...but light water reactors also have design vulnerabilities unique to their design...pressurized rod ejection accidents, loss of heat sink, loss of coolant, loss of flow.

If operated properly, they appear to be fairly safe. They do not appear to require constant manual frittering with rods. Unlike Chernobyl...where the Staff disabled safety systems and ignored rod withdrawal limits. The initial uncontrolled excursion was when the rods went out too far...and when they tried inserting...the tips of the rods..containing no poison ...but a positive reactivity effect from removing a void...as I remember...sheared some tubes, then the top cover dislodged, plunged into the core, and sheared the bulk of the tubes mechanically. The water was thus removed from the tubes in moments...and since the water in that design absorbed more than moderated neutrons...another positive void coefficient..far more significant than the rods..was created...and one collossal mess started...

The RBMK had the benefit of on-line refueling...like some US weapons reactors, Brit graphite moderated ones, and all the CANDU plants. Just the nature of the beast...though one reason the Soviets obviously liked this sort of plant when they began was the "win-win" - they got both juice and decent fissile material...withdrawing the rods easily rather than shutting down disassembling the whole (light water) reactor. This allows fuel assemblies to be plucked out at the optimum time to get the most PU-239 without contaminants PU-240 (absorber) and PU-241 (bad in any quantity in normal weapon configurations because it spontaneously fissions).

So the Iranians will be watched by the International Atomic Energy Agency to verify they "burn" each fuel rod long enough to load the assembly up with "bad" PU that makes it unsuitable for weapons...and watched to verify they don't construct any reprocessing facilities.

Remember, the Iranians originally planned on US light water reactors...and the Russians are building at a place originally planned and sited for two Westinghouse reactors.

Within Iran, of course, there are religious fanatics that would love to get a nuke bomb...but I don't see that happening with the assurances the Russians are demanding, and Iran being a signatory of nuclear non-proliferation. Also, we see likely future removal of motivators that would tempt the Iranians to arm -by Iraqi WMD being eradicated, further political moderation in Iran, and a treaty that removes the danger Iran sees from the Israeli nukes.

You hear some rhetoric from US war hawks that Iran "seeks to secretly build nuke weapons"...like the Iraq-Anthrax story...there appears to be no evidence that Iran has done anything over the last 20 years to make HEU - though they have the infrastructure and technological base to do so. Iran is on the Axis of Evil for it's role in Khobar Towers and State sponsorship of terrorists. The US is pissed because they (1) Would have preferred the Russians to wait until Irans situation changed (2) Would have preferred to sell Iran US nuclear plants down the road...

Oh come ooonnn PDM - spending important time with your son when you could be neglecting him by entertaing us here? What is up with those priorties anyway?

This is exactly the reason why we need to go into Iraq, and why we will have to go into North Korea. I am sure this is why the Bush admistration made Iraq priority number one after Afghanistan.

Where's the anti-nuke crowd when they're really needed?