Where's the Moses that lays the smack down on this parade? Where's this world coming to anyway?

So Rumsfeld is a Jew and is worshipping false idols...? I really don't get what they're trying to say with this protest. At least "No Blood for OOOOIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLL" is coherent, unlike this.

My G-d, that's going further than I thought even the anti-globos would go...

What is WRONG with these people? They openly display their hatred of Jews their support for Saddam and Arafat, and then call us “unsophisticated”? Screw them and all their “shitty little countries.” Everyone who doesn’t openly and vocally declare how wrong this is, is not only derelict, but complicit. Maybe from now on anyone visiting the US from Switzerland should be forced to wear a little yellow watch insignia to identify them as Swiss, so we know who to spit on.

I should have sent in the tip myself. I saw that photo yesterday just by chance. It was so crude and outlandish I had to look a few times to get the point. Well, it is pretty nasty and not the Muslim style.

Some Euro idiots no doubt

The Swiss have no problem defacing US symbols and using distinctively antisemtic ones to make a point YET let the Swiss flag be used to make a point of Swiss injustice to the Jews duing the war - they become indignant. The hypocrisy is galling!

Jen
------------------------------

Lawyer complains Eizenstat book cover defaces Swiss flag

The Associated Press Jan. 22, 2003
-

A Swiss attorney said Wednesday he had lodged a criminal complaint
against a former US official over the cover of his book on past Swiss
dealings with Nazi Germany during World War II.

The cover of Stuart Eizenstat's "Imperfect Justice," which was
published earlier this month, portrays gold bars in the shape of a
Nazi swastika over the white cross on Switzerland's red flag. It is
subtitled "Looted Assets, Slave Labor and the Unfinished Business of
World War II."

Michel Amaudruz, the attorney, told The Associated Press he had asked
the Federal Prosecutor's Office to investigate Eizenstat, an official
in the administration of former President Bill Clinton, for the crime
of "harming the Swiss flag." He said he represented 80 plaintiffs
from across Switzerland.

Under Swiss federal law, anyone found guilty of "removing, harming or
insulting" national emblems faces a three-year maximum prison
sentence or a fine of 5,000 francs (US$3,650). The law also punishes
people in Switzerland who damage the flags of foreign countries.

The Federal Prosecutors Office did not say immediately whether it
planned to pursue the case. There was no immediate reaction from
Eizenstat.

Amaudruz said he had no problem with the content of Eizenstat's book.

"Everyone is free to express their opinion," he said.

"The aim of the lawsuit is above all to get an apology" over
dishonoring the Swiss flag.

In December, Swiss officials were angered when the planned cover for
Eizenstat's book was made public. The country's then-Foreign
Minister, Joseph Deiss, asked the Swiss Embassy in Washington to
investigate whether it could block the book's distribution.

Swiss authorities decided later not to start a lawsuit, saying it was
unlikely to succeed.

Respected Swiss historian Jean-Francois Bergier, who headed an
international panel in a highly critical examination of Switzerland's
conduct during the war, said the book was "tasteless." Eizenstat, who
held top jobs in the Commerce, State and Treasury departments under
former President Bill Clinton, released a US government report in
1998 that accused Switzerland and other neutral nations of supplying
Nazi Germany's war machine with hundreds of millions of dollars of
trade in key materials.

The report said much of the material was paid for with gold that
German troops looted from banks and by valuables taken from Holocaust
victims.

Eizenstat also served as a mediator in the 1998 out-of-court
settlement in which Swiss banks agreed to pay Holocaust victims and
their heirs $1.25 billion.

The settlement followed allegations that the banks had stonewalled
many heirs of victims trying to recover deposits made by European
Jews before they were killed in concentration camps.

Do the PA have Swiss bank accounts? History repeats itself.

Okay, I'm going to dissent just a bit here. We make fun of Muslim symbols - I don't care that much if they make fun of Jewish biblical symbols, although the implications of using the golden calf story are pretty insulting. But it's a symbolic story that also belongs to Christians and has permeated popular culture.

But. The yellow stars get me. That's hitting below the belt. That's just reaching way too low. But now that I think of it, they are probably too clueless to see that it's a reference to the Nazis - they probably just figured they had to make sure the audience knew they were talking about Jews.

But that still pushes it over the line for me. Or if they made a mock Torah and danced with it, that would put it over the line for me.

But on a continent where Danish summer camp kids can play "hunt the Jew" . . . . and they think they are so multiculturally sensitive, too. And us Americans are such insensitive brutes.

Geepers said it all:

"Everyone who doesn’t openly and vocally declare how wrong this is, is not only derelict, but COMPLICIT."

"But now that I think of it, they are probably too clueless to see that it's a reference to the Nazis - they probably just figured they had to make sure the audience knew they were talking about Jews."

I think this is wishful thinking Yehudit. They know exactly what they are doing, the scum.

Europe is getting ready for another pogrom.

first off; this is not a "nazi-like" use of the star. the star is labelled "israel," if you look closely. it's use here is not to label rumsfeld as a jew, but to point out what is seen as blind support for israel. still an offensive use, and i find it repugnant, but not "nazi-like" at all. (on a side note; seeing [tasteless] peace protesters labelled as "nazi-like" offends me every bit as much as the protesters do; shame on lgf for that bit of godwinization.

also: #8, i'd just like to point out that the danish children were not playing "hunt-the-jew." the children were playing jews; with the counselors representing the 'evil nazis." again, distasteful, but not a glorification of the nazis.

It's SWITZERLAND, for Chrissakes. Why are we all so
surprised? The same for practically ALL of Europe. Their
opinions on Jews are right where OUR opinions on blacks were in the nineteenth century.

My question is this:

How much is European anti-Semitism driven by the 16 million Muslims now living in Europe and talking up the Palestinian cause exclusively?

Or is the Pal situation just an excuse for anti-Semitism that has been there all along to emerge?

Looking on from California, it is not clear to me.

#10 Susan

Europe is getting ready for another pogrom.

The CRIF (the French Jewish Council) has pointed out yesterday that "anti-sionism is the new mask of antisemitism" and that it came from an unlikely alliance of Green (ecologists), Brown (neo-nazis and far-right) and Red (communists and far-left)

We know it's coming. We know where it's coming from. What we don't know is, should we prepare to defend ourselves, or should we run?

thank heaves these people are not on our side, and that these are the folks that are against the U.S. and for the genocide of Jews in Israel. Sometimes these reality checks just confirm that I must be on the right side. I would be far more concernd if average, hardworking, and taxpaying Americans were the ones leading these protests. This lunacy is very comforting.

#11 david :

this is not a "nazi-like" use of the star. the star is labelled "israel," if you look closely. it's use here is not to label rumsfeld as a jew, but to point out what is seen as blind support for israel. still an offensive use, and i find it repugnant, but not "nazi-like" at all.

"Anti-Sionism" is the new mask of anti-semitism.

David (#11), you're being either willfully blind, or disingenuous. If the yellow star is simply meant to represent Israel, why is it yellow? Why not just have him carry or wear an Israeli flag? Why not a blue and white star?

No, this is a deliberate reference to the yellow stars the Nazis made the Jews wear.

What I don't get is what Israel has to do with the WEF or anti-globalization. I get the golden calf reference, and see how that could apply. But since neither Rumsfeld nor Sharon is an economic minister, I don't see what they have to do with it.

I'll jettison my logic and try again.

david,

I have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. If the protesters wanted to illustrate the alliance between Israel and the United States, then they would have had their goon wear an American and Israeli flag, not a Star of David. The Nazi’s forced Jews to wear a yellow Star of David so they could be identified as Jews who were second-class citizens so they could be singled out for repression and hatred. These people aren’t stupid; they knew EXACTLY what they were doing with their symbology.

David,

I am sorry, but they are putting the star on "Rumsfeld" to point out that he is a Jew. (I didn't actually know that. I am very blind to these things. I mean, I can take a wild stab at Ari Feischer's religion, but that's about it:) ) This is exactly what Nazis did. If they wanted to point out his connection to Israel, they could have put the blue and white Israeli flag or something.

And yes, we should not sink to the level of these demonstrators by calling them Nazis if they do not actually spout Nazi rhetoric. But when they do, I do not think there is any danger is calling a metal diggy farm implement a spade. If anti-war demonstrators did not want to be confused with Nazis, they should not behave in Nazi-like fashion. And separating "Jews" from "real people whose opinions have values and whose feeling may get hirt" is step one.

National Socialism at its best... (or worst rather) Why don't these people get jobs of some sort. They remind me of stupid hippies.

#11, when I played "cowboys" and "Indians" It was hard to differentiate bad from good. What the children were taught however till they are older adults is that Cowboys were supposed to chase Indians. You think about that.

A yellow Star of David patch--reminds me of the red flags some of the antiwar demonstrators fly here.

I certainly hope -they- know that they are not advancing their points by alluding to ideologies of mass murder.

And the Nazi stars looked just like the ones in this photo. You guys are right - they are doing it on purpose. They know what an Israeli flag looks like.

The Judenrein American antiwar movement. The American left is purging its Jews. The international Left purges its Jews about every 50 years, and we were about due.

What the hell does Israel and the Jews have to do with the World Economic Forum!? This is absolutely vile. The anti-Semitism is getting worse everyday.

#13

Brenda,

How much is European anti-Semitism driven by the 16 million Muslims now living in Europe and talking up the Palestinian cause exclusively?

I think they add fuel to the fire but it's not the Muslims that started this conflagration. Anti-semitism has it's roots buried neck deep in European history, well before Islam really became a player on the scene.

I've thought about it on many occasions and it is really quite odd. There have been documented cases of slurs used against Jews all over the world, even in places where there really are no Jews present, China for example. I think that humans project all of their personal fears and hatreds on others unthinkingly. It's a lot easier to blame someone else, that "other" of which intellectuals like to speak, than to accept responsibility. For the uneducated and powerless it's so much more satisfying to scream that this under represented minority is responsible for their situation than to admit helplessness. For the elite I think it is equal parts jealousy and a desire to deflect the anger of the masses at a target other than themselves.

I remember visiting a friend of mine in Grand Rapids, Michigan, which is the core of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America. I remember hanging out with five or six tall blond college kids all of whose surnames started with a Van der something or other. I remember being amazed when one of them started going on about Jews in NYC and how they controlled the media and this and that. I asked him whether he'd ever been to New York, no. I asked him if he'd ever met a Jew, no.

I don't get it.

#23 zulubaby

What the hell does Israel and the Jews have to do with the World Economic Forum!?

Don't you know that the Jews control the media, the banks, the U.S., and the world economy, and it's all part of a far-reaching Zionist conspiracy that is about to control the world -- and soon space?

Those Nazi newspapers are full of good news...

Brenda #13,

The answer to your question...

Or is the Pal situation just an excuse for anti-Semitism that has been there all along to emerge?

is YES.

Having lived with Swiss and French people, and in Paris and Geneva, I can tell you that most Euros aren't at all shy about expressing their anti-semitism anytime, anywhere.

#17 a blue and white star was worn by the Jews in occupied Poland.

The golden calf represents, I guess, globalization.. a false idol. And although Sharon has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, every opportunity to demonize him is gleefully exploited.

Just like the Nazis created scapegoats out of the Jews, so these anti-semites use the PM of the Jewish state as the scapegoat for all the world's troubles. People need a bogey-man. In Medieval times it used to be the neighborhood Jew who was accused of desecrating the eucharist. Now it's Israel's PM. Needless to say they don't know sh*t about Sharon's personality or his career.

Shocking. But the real message the growing anti-Jewish complacency by the EUros, the left, and other usual suspects. It looks like I'm going to get to see some serious warfare go down in my lifetime. This cannot stand. Bring it on, let's get it over with.

#11   david

You don't get it. The use of the Yellow Star is not-at-all subtle reminder of how the Euroslime feel about the Jews. That they put the word Israel on it in unreadable letters does not alter the fact that they are calling Rumsfeld a "Jew" in a way that means they want him to vanish like the 6 million other Jews who wore that same kind of Star. Do you need them to spell out "Jude" on it to understand what they're getting at??

I beg you to stop writing, and instead start reading this afternoon. Start with this: Yad Vashem

Brenda,

The last 60 years were a tiny blip in the 2,000 year long proud history of European anti-Semitism. The bit where they weren't killing us, boycotting our stores, putting us in ghetos and desecrating our cemeteries and places of worship was a historical abnormality. And now things are back to "normal".

In answer to your question, I would say that the Palestinian situation is serving as a good excuse for something that's been there all along, and unfortunatly, looks like it'll always be there, waiting for that excuse. Like "they killed baby Jesus" or "they are all traitors" or "they are ruining the economy" or "fill in your excuse here".

Caton (#25)

Exactly, and any excuse for the anti-Semites to bash the Jews.

Brenda (#13)

Or is the Pal situation just an excuse for anti-Semitism that has been there all along to emerge?

The closeted anti-Semites understand that they are now free to come out and wear their Jew-Hatred proudly.

Anti-Semitism is the true litmus test for the mental health of the world. The world's headed for bad times.

Re#11, david

You give these people too much credit. The wearing of a yellow Star of David is a universal symbol of how the Nazis singled out the Jews for extermination. No one who grew up outside of a cave would possibly misunderstand its meaning.

There is no apparent logical connection between anti-semetism and environmentalism/anti-globalism other than leftists having found a new ally in Islamofascists.

Europe needs to wake up. I know that the majority of europeans don't hate Israel and America.
But if they don't do something to counterbalance the message that we are getting from the leftists, we will have to assume that the leftists speak for europe.

The King of Jordan speaking at the World Forum about the upcoming war(and I paraphrase)...'there will be no peace until the Israeli-Palestianian conflict exists'.

Don't you know, that every problem in the world involves Israel?! (sarcasm off).

What I fear is for Bush to get his so called collation is to come down hard........real hard on Israel. This is quite obvious from the comments in the past few days. In reality Bush is just a puppet of the (arabist) state department. Papers, news reports full of Powell's holier than thou comment.......news services screaming of the incursion into Gaza with not ONE word as to WHY. Nothing! Powell sharply criticized Israel in Davos while protesters wearing yellow stars further deepened their daggers of anti-semitism. Well, we all supported Bush in this Iraq thing. Jews defected like crazy into the Republican camp but mark my words if things go bad for Israel because Bush had to appease the Arabs at Israel's expense, there will be hell to pay.

I have struggled to understand what the European hatred for Israel is all about and I have come to the conclusion that none of the facts merit the exceptional hostility the average European feels towards Israel and Jews, even their assumption that Israel and Jews are somehow one and the same bogeyman reveals the depth of their hatred.

What did the Europeans learn about the Holocaust? Not much apparently. I was visiting Mayan ruins in Guatamela when I had the good fortune to sit next to a Swede. He casually told me that the proprietor of the boarding house where he was staying had "Auschwitzed some fleas in his room". I said "Is that a verb?" His answer, "Ja". I think this explains the crude little game that took place in Denmark. Europeans just see the Holocaust as some insignificant event, one that can even be mocked and one that certainly doesn't represent their own character. What a crock of shit.

This same Swede went on to tell me how Sweden's sorry history of collaboration with the Nazis by selling them raw materials for their war effort was in fact much better than publicized, they after all were a small country and had to toe the line in order to prevent being crushed. Bottom line: the Europeans in general have a deep moral incapacity to view themselves as the vile anti-Semites they are.

The willingness of Europeans to crow to Americans about our relative lack of sophistication is the biggest crock of all: Americans have that geat national trait of thinking clearly and speaking plainly, we call a spade a spade. The Europeans are weak, morally corrupt and continue to revert to their sad past of Jew hatred and national pride that ignores their own history of war, moral failure and injustice and they somehow think they are absolved of the need to be vigilant so that their own despicable past doesn't repeat itself.

OT:
Did you notice Lula's speech? see here.
The end of the speech is better described as "giving the finger" to the anti-globos:

"It is absolutely necessary to build the world economic order to meet the demands of billions of people who live at the margins."

#29: for the record: i lost much of my family in the holocaust, and have visited the yad vashem twice. i don't speak from the historical ignorance many of you assume; and i know all-too-well the history of the yellow star (which actually goes back well before the nazis, to the 13th century).

also

#19: rumsfeld isn't jewish (ari fliescher, of course, is).

There have been documented cases of slurs used against Jews all over the world, even in places where there really are no Jews present, China for example.

The best Far East example is Japan. There were Jews in China on and off for centuries. There has never been a settled Jewish community in Japan, but the Japanese were lapping up The Protocols about 20 years ago, for two several reasons:

1) They were the international uglies at that time. Our economy was in the pits, they were riding high, they were at the peak of their technological supremacy. Everybody hated them for being successful capitalists, so they wanted to deflect it onto someone else. Guess Who.

2) They wanted to continue Westernizing. In Japan, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Western culture had 2000 years of Jew-hating - they wanted to acquire Western culture. (You know, anti-semitism goes along with Christmas trees and Easter bunnies.)

3) They don't think being secret puppet-masters of civilization is a repulsive thing at all. They admire us and want to know how we do it.

"I am sorry, but they are putting the star on "Rumsfeld" to point out that he is a Jew. (I didn't actually know that. I am very blind to these things. I mean, I can take a wild stab at Ari Feischer's religion, but that's about it:) )"

To clarify, Rumsfeld is *not* Jewish. Ari Fleicher and Paul Wolfowitz are, though, the latter having relatives in Israel.

In fact, one of the German ministers who was throwing a hissy fit the other day about Rumsfeld's "Old Europe" comment went out of his way to emphasize how wrong it was for someone like Rumsfeld *whose ancestors were German* to be trashing them. As if that should have some effect on America's foreign policy! And the Arab world has long played up Rice and Powell's race, especially Rice, maligning them as Uncle Tom's as if their ancestry proved the inferiority of their political positions. (See the Arab News archives for examples- I think this was mentioned here on LGF too.)

To the Euroweenies and the Arab world, you're not an American, you're a German living in America or a Jew living in America or an African living in America. You'll never be allowed to forget where you came from, and you'll never be allowed to be anything "more" than your ancestors' race/nationality/religion.

For example, Jews in, say, France, are not thought of as Frenchmen, they're thought of as Jews in France. Same goes for Turks in Germany. Same goes for Palestinians in Kuwait (before they got kicked out). So it boggles their minds when "an American" could be someone whose ancestors could be from literally anywhere, and so they assume that Americans who are Jewish are naturally working towards Jewish goals (world domination! whee!), and they assume that Americans who are German (Rumsfeld) should be working for German goals, or at least showing them some sympathy. You get the picture.

To #24 Bez

About the Dutch Reformed Church. They
are the church of the South African whites (Afrikaners) who actually roasted black south African's at their cocktail parties. This is a fact.
I was raised in Grand Rapids. The Dutch Reformed are very anti-semetic and hate blacks even more. As a child I attended a parade where the mother (whose husband was minister of a big reformed church and taught at Calvin College) said the following to her little girl:
"Be careful sweetheart, the little black children are eager to step on your pretty new patent shoes." I was seven or eight at the time and I will never forget it!
My mother was also raised in Grand Rapids.
There
were many anti Jewish slogans she remembered from her childhood in this almost all dutch Christian community.
One was a sign which said:
NO JEWS OR DOGS ALLOWED. Can you imagine a little innocent Jewish girl looking at such a sign in America of
the free and wondering really how free it really was.

Little has changed. Anywhere!

The VERY first thing I thought when I saw the pic was "NAZI".

Using references to Nazis to debunk your opponents is verboten on the internet: Any use of Nazis in an analogy is regarded as automatically LOSING the argument.

Unfortunately, there ARE certain symbols associated with Naziism, and the yellow star to mark Jews is one of them. The lack of the word "Juden" in the star was calculated to allow an out to weasels in case its use backfired. A form of ass-protecting developed and perfected by Clinton.

world domination! whee!

You know, with the bloody lousy job we've done on it so far, I always wonder how we manage to tie our shoelaces in the morning.

#40 Asparagirl

And the Arab world has long played up Rice and Powell's race, especially Rice, maligning them as Uncle Tom's as if their ancestry proved the inferiority of their political positions.

This reminds me something...

In his book Grammar of Civilizations, the French historian Fernand Braudel raised an interesting point about blacks and Arabs.

The slave trade from Africa to the New World was active from 1500 to 1850. During the 16th century 1,000 to 2,000 blacks reached the New World each year; 10,000 to 20,000 during the 18th century. The highest numbers were reached during the 19th century, in the last years of the slave trade, going up to 50,000 blacks a year. The total number of blacks leaving Africa for the New World is estimated at 12 to 16 millions over 350 years.

The slave trade from Africa to the Gulf countries started in the 12th century. Caravans reaching Zanzibar were taxed by the number of slaves, and those documents still exist. On average 250,000 black slaves a year were taxed from 1700 to 1850 in Zanzibar alone. V.L. Cameron estimated in 1877 that 500,000 black slaves reached the Gulf countries every year.

There are blacks living in the New World today. There are no blacks living in the Gulf countries today.

In #33 Ray wrote: "There is no apparent logical connection between anti-semetism and environmentalism/anti-globalism other than leftists having found a new ally in Islamofascists."

In #14 Canton wrote: "The CRIF (the French Jewish Council) has pointed out yesterday that "anti-sionism is the new mask of antisemitism" and that it came from an unlikely alliance of Green (ecologists), Brown (neo-nazis and far-right) and Red (communists and far-left)."

But there is a logical connection between these groups: they are all socialists, and they all hate Israel and America because both countries are living proof of the good that results from capitalism. They are united by a common enemy: individualism.

#45: you should note that israel is to a large degree a socialist country (although not as much as it used to be). it is hardly a shining example of the sucess of laissez-fair capitalism.

#23 Zulubaby - Unfortunately, it seems that the present patter of Euro-antisemitism and idiotarian behavior makes it impossible to have any type of "international" gathering without the requirement to make a point against Jews, Israel, and the United States.

It doesn't matter if the topic is environmental, economic, or human rights, the Euro-idiotarians have to condone or actively support this kind of trash.

Again, we are faced with a message that is unmistakablely clear - and that anyone who is not extremely vocal in standing up to this attitude is complicit in it's use and it's growth. The only obscenity missing from this picture is "Albeit Macht Frei"...

Where is the left and their repeated cries for "Freedom" and "Freedom of Speech" - as this is clearly hate speech! That's right, it's not hate speech if it promotes their agenda....freedom should only exist if you are free to think the way they do....

These photos, and ideas, need to be our rallying cry - to stand up in front of these idiots, their press, and their lies, and yell in one voice - Enough! It's time to stop or be stopped!

They are a threat, and they are clearly against Freedom and the principles of freedom.

#45 Forkum

But there is a logical connection between these groups: they are all socialists, and they all hate Israel and America because both countries are living proof of the good that results from capitalism. They are united by a common enemy: individualism.

Hmmm. You are partly right, in that I, too, often forget that Nazi is short for National Socialism. But... Israel has started as a socialist country, and succeeded, too. The only place in the world where collectivism work in the agriculture... The switch to capitalism is not finished, either: there are still kibbutzes in Israel, and... they still work.

s,

Lay off the piant thinner.

I don't understand why any of you are engaging in a debate about the color of the star and whether it's meant to symbolise Jews or Israel. It doesn't matter. Israel and Jews are not mutually exclusive. The references are the same. The vile slanderers and Jew-haters who organize these rallies aren't drawing any distinctions, believe you me. If you will all look closely you will see dollar bills hanging from the calf's ear. Jews worshipping money is a common anti-semitic stereotype and they're driving home the same old religious libles that have been promulgated for centuries. Switzerland is an evil country.

#39 Yehudit. Speaking of Asian anti-semitism:

So very few people seem to be aware that Japanese terrorists perpetrated the LOD AIRPORT MASSACRE IN 1972 in the name of the PFLP.

What happened at the Lod Airport in 1972?

"On May 30, 1972, a three-man hit squad from the Japanese Red Army arrived at the Lod Airport in Tel Aviv, Israel, via Air France Flight 132. They were dressed in business suits and carried what appeared to be violin cases. The operation was planned and supported by the General Command of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP-GC).

As the three men passed the ticket counter area, they suddenly pulled automatic weapons from their cases and began to spray the crowd indiscriminately. As they changed magazines in their weapons, the men threw hand grenades into the mass of sprawling bodies. One of the terrorists, Yasuyuki Yasuda, ran out of ammunition and was cut down by his companions. A second terrorist, Tsuyoshi Okudaira, committed suicide by pulling the pin on a grenade and detonating it against his body. The third terrorist, Kozo Okamoto, was captured while attempting to flee from the terminal.

Twenty-six people were killed in the massacre and 78 were injured..."

Anti-Semitism knows no frontiers. Geographical or cultural. These japs were doing it under the banner of communism. The real motivation was of course maniacal anti-Semitism.

Hi david
, I too disagree with you (#11). It is just too pointed of a symbol, and, as others have pointed out, why not use the Israeli flag then? No, I think the yellow star is none too subtle here, and as is far too common (though it does not apply to all protestors) many of these people are turning the opportunity to protest anything into a platform for their anti-American/Israeli agendas. It makes more genuine protestors of globalization look bad, whether one agrees with them or not, by discrediting the entire movement and by drowning out more reasonable voices. True Believers have overrun liberalism. And this is a shame.

#51: it is curious to note that japanese anti-semitic attitudes have also saved jews (6th paragraph).

OT -- TV Alert

The Washington bureau chief of Al Jazeera is scheduled to be on Washington Journal tomorrow morning...

[Link: www.c-span.org...]

Incidentally, today the Pakistani ambassador was on the program, whining for special treatment for illegal aliens from his country. He believes that Pakistan's help in the war on terrorism entitles Paki nationals to be free of deportation.

He was ridiculous enough to say there are no Pak terrorists. Yeah, ask Danny Pearl.

I see that C-SPAN has VDH listed at the top of the most-watched segments list.

#45 Forkum

I think the connection between anti-Semitism on the one hand, and environmentalism and anti-globalism on the other, is their denial of the legitimacy of the objective criteria of value and progress that are central to both the Jewish and the capitalist traditions.

#53 yes, some Jews were saved by the Japanese during WWII, some were plucked out from concentration camps. And this was done for not completely selfish reasons. Japanese consul Chiune Sugihara saved 6,000 Jews:

In September 1939, months after his appointment as Japanese consul in Kovno, then the temporary capital of Lithuania, the Nazis invaded Poland, sending waves of Jewish refugees into Lithuania. In the summer of 1940, with the Nazis approaching the Lithuanian border, Sugihara found himself faced with thousands of Jews desperate for visas that would allow them to escape. He called home for instructions, but the Tokyo government, then an ally of the Nazis, repeatedly refused his requests to issue visas to the Jews. Sugihara, a career diplomat, ignored the orders and, with his wife, began a frantic marathon, hand-writing and stamping as many as 300 visas a day before he was forced to close the consulate and leave the country. With the Japanese visas in hand, the Jewish refugees were able to cross the Soviet Union to Kobe, Japan, whence they emigrated to the United States, Canada, Australia, South America and what was then Palestine

#51: it is curious to note that japanese anti-semitic attitudes have also saved jews (6th paragraph).

Am I the only person detecting a pattern in David (#53's) posts on this thread?

Another point is that Israel's socialist experiment ended a long time ago. It's closer to a capitalistic model similar to America than anything else right now.

#44

"There are blacks living in the New World today. There are no blacks living in the Gulf countries today."

Black males were often castrated to serve as eunuchs in the harem. In addition, the Arab slave trade overwhelmingly preferred to take women and chidren rather than grown men. This cut down on the black fertility rate (no kiddn')."

Nevertheless, blacks or rather mixed-race people with African features still live in the Persian Gulf:

[Link: www.mathaba.net...]

[Link: www.iles.umn.edu...]

[Link: www.iranian.com...]

How coincidental that this meeting is going on in Switzerland right now. The Elders of Zion (a group of twelve Jewish bankers) are scheduled to meet there later this month to discuss economic issues and world domination. I hope the two groups don't run into each other.

Steve Carlton has the deets in case you're interested.

Caton #48 ... My knowledge of Israel is sparse compared to my knowledge of America. I know even America today has socialistic elements, and I know that Israel is more socialistic than America. However, they are both in essence capitalistic, that is, they still predominantly practice and extol rule of law, individual economic and religious freedom, private property rights, etc. These things are anathemas to all varieties of socialists. Compared to its Arab neighbors, Israel is a bastion of economic freedom and individual liberty -- kibbutzes or not. That's why America should support her.

(And participation in the kibbutzes is voluntary, isn't it? It's not as if they are walled, communist police states.)

My take: The Leftist-Islamofascist Dictionary of Symbols

All of the symbols are intended to insult Jews, but they have different meanings within different aspects of the antisemitic world.

The yellow star patch, as implemented by Nazi Germany, symbolizes partnership with the World Jewish Conspiracy (WJC). It is still the symbol of the Euro type of paranoia which is more focused on xenophobia, the humiliation of the Jews, and the WJC. Anyone who supports Israel or supports Jewish causes is accused of this connection.

Muslim anti-semitism typically uses the classic Star of David on a black-garbed, hook-nosed, big-lipped haredi characterization. Arab government media regularly circulate political cartoons using this image to depict the 'international' Jewish influence they are locked in battle with. This caricature is often depicted pulling the strings on an Uncle Sam puppet, etc.

Muslim propaganda uses different symbols in their conflict with Israel and Israeli leaders. These symbols are typically the Israeli flag with a blue swastika, similar arm bands on Israeli leaders, etc. In their war against Israel they depict Israel as the inhuman Nazi oppressor the Jews experienced.

(A contradiction I find almost humorous, is that at the same time a central theme of Arab propaganda is Holocaust denial. Nor should we forget, the Palestinians and other Arabs still identify with and admire Hitler because of his antisemitism and genocide policy. )

__________
As was pointed out in an earlier post, the golden calf in the Judeo-Christian world symbolizes the worship of false gods. In the communist, new-left world that false god is Capitalism, and now Globalization, which is also the purvey of the World Jewish Conspiracy. The leaders of the capitalist world are often dressed in black and holding the Grim Reaper scythe, both symbols of death.

The photo certainly has a mixture of themes.

I'm sure there is a lot more, but this a start. Please feel free to add to this. :)

Hey, T.H. from Switzerland,

if you're still reading LGF, please jump in with your views on this idiocy in your country. Not that I'll necessarily agree with them, but I would sincerely like to read them to see a Swiss perspective on these protests.

#46 david

Israel was created as a "HOmeland for the Jewish People"

the survivors of millenia of dhimmia, under Islam and the remnants of the slaughtered in Europe.

Israeli 'socialism' was the method of saving the lives of people who had nothing...

the Jews of the middle east were expelled with nothing

and the Jews from Europe arrived with nothing.

I am a proud member of the anti-Idiotarian movement, a contributor to LGF and all that.

That being said, and without denying the possibility of a conscious double-meaning to the yellow star, am I the only one who sees "SHERIFF" written on Rumsfeld's star?

A sheriff's star is stupid, but not exactly proof of Judenhass.

Then again, having a guy in a gorilla suit dress like Ariel Sharon and carrying a golden calf is not exactly pro-Israel.

The following message showed up on Switzerland Indymedia:

Antisemiten!-alarm 26.01.2003 18:49
Die Darstellung des bösen Kapitalisten bedient sich dermaßen an antisemitischen Stereotypen:
-große Nase
-dick
-leicht schleimig
-etc.
Das kann ja wohl nich sein.Das ist moderner Antisemitismus!!!

PS:schade,keine kaputten scheiben;sonst wärd ihr mehr im fernsehen.........oi

Can anyone translate? Babelfish didn't help...

and regarding the photo...

the man wearing the mask of Sharon does NOT have a yellow star on....its obvious to anyone Sharon is a Jew...

the fact that Rumsfeld is wearing the yellow star, is, i think, meant to show that Rumsfeld, (America) is controlled by Jews/Israel

#65,

Now that you mention it, I see it too. Maybe someone can clear up the image? (I would, but I just reformated my hard drive and there is no graphics software installed at the moment.)

The sheriff's star makes more sense. If it was the other kind of star, Sharon should be wearing one too.

It is an American stereotype. Stupid, but somehow less alarming than a Jewish stereotype.

Oh, please, there can be no reasonable doubt whatsoever that the yellow star is meant to signify "Jude." They are calling Rumsfeld a "Jew," not literally but figuratively. They are linking him, the Bush administration and the United States with the hated international Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world. To them, our status as the only superpower combined with what they believe to be Jewish control of American policy = globalization and global imperialism. It's really quite simple.

The point is that to their minds, calling someone a Jew is intended to be an insult.

I don't post often in this excellent forum, but
as a tall, blond graduate of Calvin College, living in New York City for the past 20 years, I could not let the comments of bez and s (#24, #42) pass unremarked upon.

First, Calvin College is an institution of the Christian Reformed Church, not the Dutch Reformed Church, and as such should not be tainted by accusations made against the latter denomination.

Ignorant and hateful remarks such as the ones recounted in bez's and s's anecdotes deserve swift and certain condemnation. However, in all my upbringing and education, in church, home and school (it's worth mentioning here that my father was an elder of the church), I was taught to reject such attitudes. Playmates of all races, ethnicities and religions were always welcomed warmly into our home. As adults, my sister and I have gone on to satisfying careers working in the international community as ESL teachers.

Ignorance can be found everywhere, even among self-styled New York "sophisticates," I've found.

Just wondering before I go...what does it matter if someone is tall and blond? Why was it even mentioned? Is there something about being tall and blond that makes one more likely to sympathize with nazi views?

(Say it ain't so, bez. I've really been getting to like you.)

I don't know if anyone noticed the Sharon figure is in a hairy body constume...descendants of 'apes and pigs'?

#66 -

I can translate enough of it to give you the gist:

Die Darstellung des bösen Kapitalisten bedient sich dermaßen an antisemitischen Stereotypen:
-große Nase
-dick
-leicht schleimig
-etc.
Das kann ja wohl nich sein.Das ist moderner Antisemitismus!!!

PS:schade,keine kaputten scheiben;sonst wärd ihr mehr im fernsehen

The showing of the angry capitalists lends itself to being seen as antisemitic stereotypes:
-big nose
-fat
-slimy
-etc.
This cannot be. This is modern antisemitism!
PS: shame, no end (I don't know what scheiben means); therefore (I don't know what ward is) any more on TV.

Koyla #55 ... I think you're right, but I don't know enough about Jewish tradition to make that particular connection myself. I've often wondered if anti-Semitism had as much to do with the envy of Jewish economic success as with their race and/or religion.

# 72

....therefore (I don't know what ward is) any more on TV.

"PS:schade,keine kaputten scheiben;sonst wärd ihr mehr im fernsehen........."

PS: What a pity, no broken down window-glasses, otherwise you would be more often in the TV

Thank you, zuckerlilly! Good to know I got the rest of it right.

This is the picture that he is referring to.

At least one person in this movement is concerned about anti-semitism. He signs his messages "silver", so there's a good chance that he's a Jew.

Re: #36

Your experience with the Swedish tourist reminds me of a conversation I had with a German fellow on a train in eastern Germany back in 2000 some time.

He was an engineer who supervised the installation of cell phone towers. Masters degree probably, literate, well-traveled. We had a very nice conversation about all sorts of things and then the talk turned to economics and unemployment. And he said, in explaining the high German unemployment rate - "well, you know - it is all the fault of the Jews. They control everything." Just casually, just like that. AND I DIDN'T RESPOND. I DIDN'T SAY A WORD. Just being the pleasant, polite American, rolling over and playing dead before my cultural superiors. I changed the subject. So here I am on this Deutsche Bundesbahn train pulling into Berlin in the evening and wondering if I've somehow been teleported back to 1932.

Would some guy in America do this in casual conversation on an Amtrak train? Seriously. When was the last time you can recall it happening to you?

Unbelievable. Europe. So worldly, so sophisticated.

I thought there was something very strange about that picture, but couldn't figure out what.
Then I realized that it was lacking a good ol' fashioned capitalistic advertisement (figures) and something that said "We're Swiss." (I didn't know they made a green one:)

#67 ploome,

the man wearing the mask of Sharon does NOT have a yellow star on....its obvious to anyone Sharon is a Jew...

I fixed that Swiss oversight, and (Amy #69, you're absolutely right) I made sure that there is no ambiguity about what that star means. Must have a bit more honesty and integrity in Swiss Judenhass advertising.

#55: to be honest, i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, unless you're linking capitalism and judaism with a rejection of relativism(?)

#73: much of the most rabid anti-semitism was in rural eastern europe; where the jews as a whole were quite poor. envy as an explanation for anti-semitism is weak at best.

Xena (#70)

Is there something about being tall and blond that makes one more likely to sympathize with nazi views?

In response to that, I'm tall and blonde and Jewish, so no ;-)

s (#41)

They are the church of the South African whites (Afrikaners) who actually roasted black south African's at their cocktail parties. This is a fact.

WTF are you on about?

#65 Sheriffs wear 5-pointed gold stars, not 6-pointed ones. This one has a double meaning, one of which is related to Judaism.

#70

Xena,

I actually didn't make any references to Calvin College in my post, though the kids I had that conversation with were in fact Calvin students. As a matter of fact I was in Grand Rapids visiting one of my best friends who was a Calvin student. Please don't assume I share the view that "s" does in his post. I was simply recounting an experience to butress my point. I can say from personal experience that during the 5 days I spent there that the majority of the student populace was exceedingly nice to the random kid from the East Coast with a more than random name.

Ignorance can be found everywhere, even among self-styled New York "sophisticates," I've found.

I couldn't agree more. In general the more "sophisticated" the person the more out of touch with reality, hence all of these enlightened actors opening their mouths and spewing idiocy. Maybe I should create an equation and call it Bez's Law? Internet fame is just around the corner!

what does it matter if someone is tall and blond? Why was it even mentioned? Is there something about being tall and blond that makes one more likely to sympathize with nazi views?

I never mentioned the Nazi's either. It was simply an observation on my part. I remember it striking me at the time that everyone I was hanging out with was very tall and very blond. Looking at my comment I guess it really serves no purpose to have it in there other than to add some flavor of my experience. For the record, I have nothing against blond people, I even have friends that are blond. :)

(Say it ain't so, bez. I've really been getting to like you.)

Well, thank you very much. I hope that I've clarified myself enough that your "like" doesn't add a "dis."

#80

Zulubaby,

I wanted to say something about "s" and that roasting blacks as appetizers thing but I honestly don't know much about the Boers and that Church outside of elementary history and my observations that they're all incredibly attractive. It certainly sounds over the top but in this world...who knows...

#81,
It varies from area to area. Do an image search on Google for Sheriff's badge and you'll see stars with 5, 6 or 7 points.

I don't think there was an intentional double meaning, but the protester certainly didn't care if he offended Jews by wearing it.

#32 - Gray - Yes, a very good point. It definitely seems so. When people lose their moral focus and unleash their self-pity and anger on others (usually the Litmus Jews) they reveal themselves as being unworthy of life.

The world is, unfortunately, bringing great trouble on itself... but they'll still blame the Jews. Aren't they still blaming WWII on the Jews?

#38 - David

#19: Rumsfeld isn't jewish (ari fliescher, of course, is).

Since when did facts interfere with slander and lies? If Rumsfeld isn't a Jew, they'll MAKE him one.

#81: different areas seem to use different stars for their sheriffs offices. five-, six-, and even seven-pointed stars are all used.

81 Law and order badges are 6 pointed.

77 skookumchuk. Last incident of that nature I experienced was 9-11. After the second plane hit, a senior engineer said 'It's the Israelis' and then went in the whole song and dance.

One person I met in very isolated area had never met a Jew in their life. When I mentioned I was Jewish, out came the whole conspiracy thing, very calm and matter-of-fact. He also spoke a number of Eastern European languages and began trying them all on me because he heard Jews spoke every language...that was a new one.

xena,

I hope being tall and blond does not equate with being a nazi because I am tall, blonde, blue eyed and jewish!!! :)

People need to stop making generalizations. It does not make you any better than the people you criticize.

One thing about this picture. It makes me much happier to be in America. Whatever you say about the anti-semitic intent of the yellow star its obviously meant to be a slur against the person who has it pinned on (in this case Rumsfield) and the protestors would not want it pinned on them. In the good ol' USA Donald Rumsfield isn't even worried about that. Thanks America and screw you to the Swiss.

82 Bez

"I remember it striking me at the time that everyone I was hanging out with was very tall and very blond. "

I had the reverse experience. I was at dinner with a number of friends, mostly Jewish. There was one Gentile guest who remarked on all the dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. We all laughed and there was no offense.

Faster Please (#65),

am I the only one who sees "SHERIFF" written on Rumsfeld's star?

Can’t say for certain. Blew it up and maxed out the contrast, brightness and sharpness, but it looks like two words. The “S” is almost a perfect “5” so I’m not sure what it is.
But here’s the scary thing I grayscaled it (made it black and white) when I zoomed out to the whole shot again it looks even more like a 1939 Nazi rally. All they need is a couple a torches and you can hear the chants of “Zeig Hiel”

It’s disgusting no matter what it says.

You know ... now that I look at the photo closer, I have to agree with Faster Please #65. The word SHERIFF appears to be written on the star. It's as if someone began writing the word, then ran out of space, so they crammed together the last few letters. A higher resolution photo would help.

TrueBob (#87)

He also spoke a number of Eastern European languages and began trying them all on me because he heard Jews spoke every language...that was a new one.

That may have something to do with Yiddish.

91 I agree with a previous post...this type of yellow star is the Jude star of Nazi Germany, regardless of what is written on it.

This protest doesn't look any crazier than the peace protests here last week. Same bunch of professional protesters just travel around the world and p-a-r-t-y like it's 1933.

#87 Apparently it depends on where you come from. From my neck of the woods, they are 5-pointed or not stars at all. But in doing some further research, #86 is correct, they come in different varieties.

Nevertheless, it is clear to me that any European knows full well what a 6-pointed yellow star means to other Europeans. And it isn't the Sheriff.

95 I'll take your word for it. I've only seen 6 points, including in movies.

TrueBob and Zulu,

It's doubtful that he knew this midrash, but the idea of Jews knowing many languages is one that goes back a few (thousand) years.

Bez (#83)

I am quite sure that the Afrikaners are not cannibals! s states, "This is a fact." I'd like to see a source backing that up.

#24,

I'm South African, and have lived here all my life. I can only imagine that your comments were made out of complete ignorance.

Not all white South Africans are Afrikaaners, in fact the majority are English speaking.

Secondly, the Dutch Reformed Church is one of many churches frequented by Afrikaans speaking South Africans.

Finally, your comments about roasting black people at cocktail parties. My goodness, what does one say to that? I've heard a lot of ridiculous things, but thats certainly up there. Thanks for the laugh.

93 You could be right regarding the languages. Many Jewish immigrants from East Europe spoke Yiddish, their local language, and bits of Russian. Although, I had the impression if had known Mandarin he would have tried that as well. The whole conspiracy thing kind of threw me, though. It was a beautiful day in a small town, surrounded by the serenity of mountains and lakes, and then...holy shit!

But this was a young guy just out of the local small town high school. I expect it all came from his parents.

It says Sherrif. However, every person that sees the picture without reading the words gets the same impression, as would anyone familiar with the events of 1933-45.

Ask 100 historically literate people what the Yellow Star signifies and I bet more than 90% would say the Nazi persecution of Jews.

Of course, Europeans seem to have a interesting problem with their vision in that they are blind to Jew-hatred, so a symbol that most Americans would see as a Nazi symbol to them is just a sherrif's badge.

There is something decidedly creepy about how the anti-war idiotarians so willingly embrace symbols and phrases with more than a whiff of Jew-hatred and then deny that they are bigots. It was one thing when they were using codewords so they had plausible deniability but now they don't even care to hide their true feelings.

"Jew$ out of Palestine" (the $ says all there is to know)
Golden Calf (we all know how Jews worship money)
"Israel Wants YOU! Onward Christian Soldiers" (we all know how Jews exploit Christians)
Sharon as an Ape (good thing it wasn't Mohammed as a pig or there would have been real trouble)

I'd post more but I just got beeped by the Learned Elders of Zion for another one of our protocols.

Maybe I can get some feedback from LGFers. I have a small embroidery business and a while back when attacks on Jews in France were on the upswing I thought of embroidering a jacket back with a large yellow star marked Juif or Jude and wear it out of solidarity. I decided not to because I thought it might cause some anguish to Holocaust survivors. What do you think?

BTW, if anyone wants a custom anti-idiotarian shirt, hat or jacket, contact me and I'll see what I can do.

Does it all really matter?

Euros hate Jews, always have, always will. That's why the smartest ones came to America, and that why we have had the benefit of the smartest minds of most cultures from all cross the globe: they got out of what ever half-assed culture that said you can't think freely there!

We are so lucky!

God bless all the smart ones who came here!

Julia

#41 - sorry not #24

97 Avi

That was good, thanks.

Avi (#97)

Thanks! I'm keeping that one.

avi #97 -
I wasn't familiar with that one. Very entertaining. Thanks!

Jews did speak many languages - for much of our history, we served as the intermediaries between trading partners in different parts of the world, and we had to be able to communicate with many different groups. Jews of different countries solved the communication problem between themselves by writing to one another in Hebrew.

#104-106,

No problem. It still amazes me how much can be accomplished with a good memory and a great search engine!

Bez (#82) Sorry, this is a hotbutton topic for the Warrior Princess, and it really shows sometimes. I apologize to you before the whole LGF congregation for not doing a better job sorting out your comments from s's in my post. We should really get together and chat sometime--we probably have some acquaintances in common! (Wouldn't say that if I didn't still like you, now would I?)

Zulu (#80) and bratgirl (#88): Don't tell anyone, but my blond is a...uh..."restoration" ;-)

*Group hug!*

It's interesting that these people (the anti-globalizers) call themselves "progressives." In reality, they are reactionaries. For hundreds of years, in almost every country of Europe, there have been people:

1) Who were opposed to international trade and movement of ideas ("cosmopolitanism")
2) Who put special value on "soil" ("the earth") and "blood" (race)
3) Who were opposed to technology
4) Who viewed "folk" values, traditions, etc., as superior to logic-based rationalism
5) Who viewed *bankers* (especially international bankers) as possessing some form of sinister magic

Sound like anyone you know? These are the principles of many who call themselves "progressives" and even "liberals." They have also been the principles of almost every reactionary movement, including specifically Fascism and Naziism.d

107 OT

Here's a great 404 page

href="[Link: www.antir.org...]

#77 - that mindset isn't unique among the educated in Germany these days. My last trip to see family was 10 months ago, but ran into the same mindset and vocal opinions against Jews. To my father, who lived there during the war, it was similar to the mindset during the days up to the war, and the early days of the war.

I didn't follow the path of being quiet though....I spoke up, and when they switched to English, and said the same thing, started "Fisking" them. They tried to get the last word, calling me a Jew (which I am not). I called them As*ho*es - so it ended on about the same level of intelligence as their entire argument. At least I insulted them, and as for what they called me - it's not an insult despite their narrow minds.

Since they were businessmen, I asked my cousin who worked with them if their notepads were only 2 cm wide so to match their narrow way of thinking.

Maybe I can get some feedback from LGFers. I have a small embroidery business and a while back when attacks on Jews in France were on the upswing I thought of embroidering a jacket back with a large yellow star marked Juif or Jude and wear it out of solidarity

When I was in college someone distributed yellow Jude star stickers to wear on Yom HaShoah. Many of us wore them on our clothes. Many students put them on their notebooks. I hadn't even thought if it might be insensitive, actually. The intent was exactly the opposite.

Xena,

Aah, a suicide blonde then? ;-)

#73 Forkum and #79 David,

I think anti-Semitism does have to do with envy, but not specifically of Jewish economic success. I think that what the anti-Semites envy, or rather what they find threatening to their own sense of self-worth, is the way Jewish people have always gone about their business acting for all the world as if life had some purpose that transcends individual success and individual lifetimes.

What I'm referring to is not a narrowly religious thing; nothing supernatural. It is something that is also very characteristic of Americans, irrespective of any given faith: a sense of being "chosen people". Again, I am not making a religious point, as such.

A people that believes in the objective existence of right and wrong, necessarily also believes in the possibility of objective progress. Such a people has a natural reason for believing that life is intrinsically meaningful. The meaning emerges from the never ending, multi-generational struggle to improve ourselves as individuals, to help better our families and friends, and to morally elevate our communities and nations.

If a people cares enough about living rightly, it really becomes "chosen" in an objective sense. The evolution of its culture comes to be conditioned by objective moral values. Such people, wherever they may have started from, find themselves moving towards a common destination. This fact is illustrated by the unequalled affinity between the American and Jewish people.

It is this, albeit often inexplicit, belief that life's meaning is found in reaching for objective progress, that is the anathema to the anti-Semites and the anti-capitalists. For they are invariably dogmatically fixated on a set of values and supporting beliefs that are inimical to progress, whether it be scientific, economic, or moral; and that invariably result in persistent failure -- even by the perverted standards of the people concerned.

To put it at its simplest, the Jewish and American narratives provide incontrovertible evidence of the emptiness of their enemies' lives. To suppress that evidence, those self-chosen enemies are prepared to go to extraordinary, and often utterly self-destructive lengths.

We saw this in Hitler caring more about killing the Jews than about defeating the Allies. We see it in the Arabs' willingness to endure decades of cultural and economic stagnation in a vain obsession with destroying Israel. We saw it in the mindset of Osama Bin Laden, who could not endure the manifest moral superiority of Western civilization.

And, of course, we see it in the environmentalists, anarchists, communists, anti-globalisers, and apologists for Third World failure, who all find common cause with anyone who hates the values that make the Jewish and American peoples truly chosen.

#13 Brenda:

Great question. What an honest question.

Most of these answers aren't so honest, don't come with the caveat from California, NY or whatever.

From my perspective as a Jewish European, albeit a controversial Brit, any non-Jewish European could rightly take offense at this thread.

Yes, there are antisemites in Europe, but much of the above makes me ponder those Evil Yanks and their KKK. Nobody, not these protesters, not Bez, nancv, Og Ogilby (eeejit), Angua, Captain A, Asparagirl, not Neil G or even zulubaby will ever win anyone's support with an all out offense, and I'm telling them all off (politely).

Whatsmore your other observation about the rising influence of extremist Islam is definitely, in my view, correct. That and neo-Nazism make good if very short-lived bedfellows and I've had antisemites quoting Muslim old wives' tales at me and vice versa. Athos, the line that if you aren't vocal you're complicit makes sense when you're witnessing outright persecution but in this case makes me think what those Islamic radicals see in people who aren't vocal: new recruits.

So I'm saying that protest was a small ugly protest, not a mission statement delivered on behalf of Europe. And if you want to keep your friends when the going gets tough don't stare at the ground and mutter.

#10 Susan says:

Europe is getting ready for another pogrom.

and #14 Caton says:

We know it's coming. We know where it's coming from. What we don't know is, should we prepare to defend ourselves, or should we run?

I have read a lot on this but I have never been to Europe, so I really can't form my own conclusions. Do our brothers and sisters in Europe feel that the above statements are valid?

#116,

The 2,300 French Jews who emigrated to Israel last year certainly do.

#115

Keep our friends? To whom are you referring? I don't think that Jews have many friends in Europe. I also think that Brenda's question was a good one, and I think the answer is that the radicalism of European Muslim populations has allowed the non-Muslim Europeans' latent antisemitism to emerge once again under the cover of political solidarity with Palestinians.

It isn't just this one "small ugly protest" that leads me to believe what I just said. It's the actions and statements coming from France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Ireland, Scandinavia... There's no point in ignoring it.

One can honestly ask whether the current European attitudes towards Israel and Jews are a new phenomenon caused by leftist tendencies to sympathize with those whom the leftists deem the underdogs or whether they are merely a mutation of centuries-old antisemitism which was suppressed but not eradicated after WWII. People can honestly differ on this point, but I don't think there's any honest way to deny that it's antisemitism either way.

And if you were referring the America's European "friends," please excuse me while I try to control my hysterical laughter. France and Germany have shown themselves to be no friends of ours. Neither is Italy, beyond Berlusconi himself. Greece, Scandinavia and the Netherlands are outright hostile. And that leaves... Spain? Luxembourg? Austria?

England is a special case - Americans tend to distinguish between England and Continental Europe.

#114 kolya: i still have no clue what you're trying to say (as a jew in america, i belong to both groups kolya is talking about, as do most of my friends, but i can't see any hint of what he's referring to. kolya, could you clarify?

Kolya,

That couldn't be more incisive. But knowing the difference between Jewish (religious) individualism, which America protects along with everyone else, and capitalist (areligious) freedoms is to recognise a moral gulf which antisemites, anti-westerners and even many Jews often treat as a fine line. If we do that we have totally confused Judaism with the US constitution.

Just so as to cover me, I'm fully supportive that Jews worldwide can look up to America as a promoter of liberal freedoms, but as outraged as I am at the intransigence about radical Islam I do believe Britain and most of Europe tend also to respect America's advocacy of those freedoms. America vs. Europe is a mistake I'd sooner not hear about...

Deutschland muß sterben

Wo Faschisten und Multis das Land regieren
Wo Leben und Umwelt keinen interessieren
Wo alle Menschen ihr Ich verlieren
Da kann eigentlich nur noch eins passieren

Deutschland muß sterben, damit wir leben können!

Schwarz ist der Himmel, Rot ist die Erde
Gold sind die Hände der Bonzenschweine
Doch der Bundesadler stürzt bald ab
Denn Deutschland, wir tragen dich zu Grab

Wo Faschisten und Multis das Land regieren
Wo Leben und Umwelt keinen interessieren
Wo alle Menschen ih Ich verlieren
Da kann eigentlich nur noch eins passieren

Deutschland muß sterben, damit wir leben können!

Deutschland muß sterben, damit wir leben können!

Wo Panzer und Raketen den Frieden "sichern"
AKWs und Computer das Leben "verbessern"
Bewaffnete Roboter überall
Doch Deutschland, wir bringen dich zu Fall

Deutschland muß sterben, damit wir leben können!

Deutschland verrecke, damit wir leben können!
Deutschland?!

#115

Dom,

Yes, there are antisemites in Europe, but much of the above makes me ponder those Evil Yanks and their KKK. Nobody, not these protesters, not Bez, nancv, Og Ogilby (eeejit), Angua, Captain A, Asparagirl, not Neil G or even zulubaby will ever win anyone's support with an all out offense, and I'm telling them all off (politely).

I didn't even realize that I was on the offence. I'm usually fighting a desperate rear-guard defence in here. I was born in Europe and nearly all my family still lives there so I know that this isn't emblamatic of the majority of the populace, it's just that the veins of anti-semitism have a long history in Europe. That is a fact no one can dispute. I'm sure it gets tiring hearing it of course, just like a white American is probably very tired of being blamed for slavery. The difference is that only a very small percentage of Americans speak out against blacks or advocate boycotts on black nations whereas the case with Jews and Europeans is very different. In this country the people that speak out against blacks tend to be the same people that support the Klan (tacitly of course) and hate the Jews. As for disagreeing, well, you're welcome to your opinion of course and I welcome dissenting voices if they raise valid points (which you do) and aren't belligerent (which you aren't).

So I'm saying that protest was a small ugly protest, not a mission statement delivered on behalf of Europe. And if you want to keep your friends when the going gets tough don't stare at the ground and mutter.

I completely agree. The rhetoric between the US and Europe, France and Germany primarily, is overheated. The whole Jacksonian honor/populism argument that is bandied about by Hanson and den Beste makes for very interesting reading but it is honestly too simplistic a philosophy to be applied to a fragmented population of 300 million. In the end we will end up being on the same side of this conflict because everyone will realize that we have a lot more in common than we have differences. I've said it before but put aside the language and an American would fit in very snugly in most European nations. I can attest to this personally as even with my disagreements I love Europe and return yearly.

#108

Xena,

Apology accepted of course.

I don't know if we'd have a lot of acquaintances in common as I know one person from Calvin and he now lives in Colorado. As for meeting, sure, I'll have my people call your people :).

*Now this is completely off topic but The Dixie Chicks rocked the national anthem out! Best version I've ever heard I think.*

Isn’t it ironic that these anti-Semites are hostile toward Jews based on their theory that Jews control the world, but they are fast friends with Muslim radicals who are trying to control the world?! (dar al Islam)

#115 Dom --

It was meant as an honest question, not some straw man for bashing Europeans.

Here in California, we have had an enormous influx of Mexicans in the last 3 decades, to the point that the mayor of Los Angeles refers to it as a "Mexican city." Some of the louder, more obnoxious of these newcomers insist that California belongs to Mexico. (Wrong, the Spaniards ripped it off from the Indians, more accurately.)

Remarkably, some European-descended Californians accept this BS with no reflection on the historical accuracy (or lack) or what it might mean in a political context for the near future when the state become majority Hispanic.

My point in this example is when you are surrounded with an alien culture with constant yammering about their victimization view of reality, it takes a toll on the opinions of those who don't know anything about history.

Here is a translation of #121 courtesy of dictionary.com:

Germany must die where fascists and multis the country cannot actually occur to govern where lives and environment interest where all humans their I to lose there only one Germany must die, so that we can live! The sky, red is black is the earth gold is the hands of the Bonzenschweine the federal eagle falls Germany, we nevertheless soon off carries you to grave where fascists and where lives govern multis the country and environment where all humans do not interest ih I lose there can only one actually occur Germany must die, so that we can live! Germany must die, so that we can live! Where tanks and rockets " protect " the peace AKWs and computer the life armed robots " improve " everywhere Germany, we nevertheless bring you to case Germany must die, so that we can live! Germany strains, so that we can live! Germany?!

116

I have read a lot on this but I have never been to Europe, so I really can't form my own conclusions. Do our brothers and sisters in Europe feel that the above statements are valid?

Those comments are as silly as saying the US intends to reintroduce racial segregation.

#126 Joe,

I think Caton is refering to France, where within the past year, Synagogues have been burned down, and Jews have been attacked repeatedly on the street...based upon that, Caton's comments are not silly, although it is possible that they are an inaccurate prediction.

What country are you from?

Bez,

My mistake listing such a pool of people who I thought were getting very angry with Europe as a whole. I am sorry about that, and to others I named. Of course, you are right about the significance of the history of European antisemitism. Glad you agree with the other bit.

Amy, while you ain't wrong, the answer is neither to run away nor to villify. Maybe things are scarier on mainland Europe but no European country is on the verge of rounding up its Jews. This time we'd know if they were.

The Jews in Europe should give thought to combatting Islamic antisemitic influence over here before things do get that bad. European leaders should be pressured to deliver a clear line on Israel's right to exist; also to explain that Muslim extremism is what has put border controls on the agenda and to sway the public from the nationalism which the very same Muslims idiotically promote. Bush's language has become very strong and we see where America stands. It is time for European leaders to follow suit.

#119 david,

What I am trying to say (apparently not very clearly) is that if you value truth, that fact will impose a certain direction on your life that is independent of your other pre-existing goals and values. In choosing to live by the truth you are choosing to live by standards that are not of your own making. That is what truth being objective means.

Those who go down this road – even if they don't think of it in those terms – have a natural (i.e. not arbitrary) criterion of meaning in their lives. This is easy to see, say, in the case of a scientist who has made a great scientific breakthrough. I think we can agree that such a person has lived an objectively meaningful life. That cannot be said of one of Saddam's thugs whose sole achievement has been to tortured people at his master's behest.

But you don't have to make a scientific discovery for your life to be objectively meaningful. You can also achieved that through striving to be genuinely moral. That, too, requires you to live by standards that are external to your own whims and preferences. That is what I am referring to by my use of the term "chosen people": people who are committed to following truth, whether in science, morality or anything else. They choose truth, and truth, in turn, shapes much of their lives in ways that they could not have foreseen.

That commitment to truth-seeking is, I suggest, the secret ingredient of Jewish and, more recently, American civilisation.

But most cultures and most ideologies find the discipline of taking the truth seriously, to be incompatible with more strongly held values, such as an irrational and unwarranted sense of their own self-worth and self-importance. Such people are daily confronted with an inescapable existential problem: "How come the unworthy Jews and Americans are apparently doing so well, while our people who are genuinely deserving are doing so badly?" And the only answer that is logically consistent with such people's self-aggrandising premises, is that all the apparent iniquities in the world are the fault of Jews, American, and all they stand for.

So it is the existence of objective moral truth, that explains the sense of fellowship among the believers of the world's evil ideologies. They truly have a common cause: the refutation of moral truth.

Does this make any more sense to you?

Kolya,

Beautiful, worked for me. Brenda BTW I meant it when I called you honest, that seems a fair view of fundamentalists' effect on Europe. It isn't all of the Muslims, but most of the ones who move their mouths.

# 124 Brenda

OT

Here is some info on the Mexican invasion and some of the political circumstances that are facilitating this change in demographics in California.

Say Buenos Dias to La Republica del Norte

More on the Invasion

A plethora of reasons

so, your hypothesis is that jews, and americans(?), follow an external (and supposedly objective) ethical/moral/social code, whether conciously or not. other people, who follow "evil ideologies," then resent americans/jews (presumably other peoples also), since they cannot follow this objective moral code due to conflicts with their own ideologies, and thus cannot reap the benefits of living by this "objective" truth.

is that a fair summary, kolya?

#132 David,

Yes.

#131 what evil reasons to oppose immigration. Do u believe this, that flat anti-immigrationism protects your voting block?

#131: the third article you posted links to vdare.com.

can you honestly say that, reading that site, you find nothing even the least bit extremist or offensive?

David,

Until Kolya agreed with your summary, I thought it seemed fair just to say "America and Jews support individualism and are held by others to be successful. Resentment can emerge amongst those onlookers who are less successful, and support for counter-groups (eg neo-Nazism) is now seen to be rising." I see little wrong with that even if it is a little general. Why extrapolate such a negative, ie that Americans and Jews necessarily look down upon those perceived as less successrful.

Kolya, how can you talk about a 'natural' feeling of 'objective truth' with a straight face? ;$

#136 Dom,

Now it's my turn to be confused. Neither I nor david said that:

Americans and Jews necessarily look down upon those perceived as less successful

What david paraphrased me as saying, and what I confirmed, is that the followers of bad ideologies resent American and Jewish success – not least our moral success. Nothing about us looking down on them.

But, having said that, I do believe that our values are objectively better. So if that constitutes "looking down" on believers in immoral ideologies, so be it.

#134, 135

My personal opinion as such is hardly relevant, as I think it worthwhile to first examine what is taking place in reality, i.e., demographically, socially and economically and not just academically/theoretically.
Prevailing opinions, that immigration is only good, or if you are against it, then you must be racist, are notions that I totally reject for what they are: ad hominem attacks to silence the critical.

"Evil reasons": Immigration, as a definition cannot be good or bad, as it refers not to morals but to the movement of people from one place to another.

If you want to consider the term "diversity", it is not in the Constitution. It is however, promoted as if it were.

As to the terms “extremist” or “offensive”, I find them so ambiguous and politically loaded as to be almost meaningless.

Have you read Thomas Sowell s "The Quest for Cosmic Justice"?

Bez writes (#122):

I'm sure it gets tiring hearing it of course, just like a white American is probably very tired of being blamed for slavery. The difference is that only a very small percentage of Americans speak out against blacks or advocate boycotts on black nations whereas the case with Jews and Europeans is very different. In this country the people that speak out against blacks tend to be the same people that support the Klan (tacitly of course) and hate the Jews.

I don’t frankly recall American’s being blamed for slavery on a regular basis, particularly since America didn’t invent it, fought a Civil War that had as one of it’s main reasons / issues the decision on slavery at it’s roots, and does still in many cases permit people to speak out against blacks without being members of the KKK or hate Jews. The stereotype of the KKK if you speak out against blacks is being broken by blacks who are beginning to speak out against the mindset of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Cynthia McKinney, Maxine Waters, and others who do more damage to freedom, rights, and black causes than they help. In fact, all of these so-called black rights activists and officials are on record as being extremely anti-semetic.

You also say:

The whole Jacksonian honor/populism argument that is bandied about by Hanson and den Beste makes for very interesting reading but it is honestly too simplistic a philosophy to be applied to a fragmented population of 300 million. In the end we will end up being on the same side of this conflict because everyone will realize that we have a lot more in common than we have differences.

I wonder about the term simplistic when applied to this philosophy. I rankles like the simplistic description that was applied to the terms – Evil Empire, or Axis of Evil, or You are Either With Us or Against Us.

Statements, philosophies, and geopolitics do not have to be complex. If they are complex, it is usually because there is some weaselspeak within the approach. There are times where right and wrong / good and evil are issues that are black and white and fit the simple answer or approach. I disagree that the American population of 300 million is fragmented. That is like saying America is still locked into the 2000 Presidential election. It ignores a few key points that have made a fundamental change to America – namely September 11, 2001 and the renewed focus on freedom, rights, and the perils facing America.

Isn’t it simplistic to say that when push comes to shove, our common traits will do more to bring America together than the differences? Are there really that many common traits or more importantly common values?

Furthermore, this position also fails to acknowledge that there is, within America, a vocal minority that believes not in the principles of America, but in Anti-Americanism, Socialism / Marxism, and the elimination of freedoms. Their belief, demonstrated in the streets of DC and San Francisco last weekend, is not one that will ever reconcile with “mainstream” America. It is not an anti-war posture, but anti-American posture every bit as vocal here as it is in Europe.

Hey folks, you know why the euros and the arabs can bash the jews in such a vile manner?

Because now, the Jews are perceived in the old mold: weak, ingratiating (to the americans), and overly sensitive to what others think about them.

This is all largely attributable to the Israeli gov't's response to the intifada: instead of a vigorous slap down of arab violence, incremental, hesitant and inneffective attempts to defend the jews (israelis) have only emboldened the enemies of the jews, who see them paralyzed with fear of european and especially american opinion.

A whole new generation has found this hole in the armour of the 'new jews' (israel), and is exploiting it because it is traditional to do so in europe - think of it as 'comfort' hatred (like 'comfort food'), and there are other economic and psychological rewards (indirect stab at a superior USA) in doing so.

In Europe as in the arab world, strength is respected and appeased (think Hitler and Vichy, Milosevic and the EU), and Lucre is King.

The USA's procrastination and seeming vacillation in regards to Iraq sends similar mesages, and allows for momentum to build on the side of those opposing american policies.

Kolya,

Look, I took as David's implication what you have just said about looking down on others:

"other people, who follow "evil ideologies," then resent americans/jews (presumably other peoples also), since they cannot follow this objective moral code due to conflicts with their own ideologies, and thus cannot reap the benefits of living by this "objective" truth."

It's a petty point for me to push and I hope you'll forgive me but, objectivity is a minefield and noone with either a constitution or a dogma, however truth-seeking, can ever lay claim to it.

Pig-Dog,

I use words like 'extremist' so as to avoid generalising Muslim imperialism to all Islam. Offensive to mean offending a group or people perhaps unnecessarily when really critiqueing an idea. I'm sorry, I admit I don't know the California Mexican issue very well and was trying to be academic in my objection. Is there often said to be an agenda behind the immigration?

#121 that's hilarious!

Dom.

I'm sure that if you asked someone in 1933 whether anti-Semites were in the 'majority' in Germany, you'd get a no for an answer. And that would probably be the correct answer.

The problem is that it doesn't take a majority to effect a pogrom. It takes a radical minority, and a complacent majority. Recent anti-Israeli boycotts, anti-Semites in prominent positions mouthing off without any significant repercussions, absolute indifference to Palestinian terrorism taking 700 Jewish lives are some of the things which cause us to be seriously concerned about the road which Europe (and the whole world) is taking.

There are people still alive with numbers tatooed on their arms. They are in danger of being killed simply because they are Jews, citizens of the Jewish state. I know of one victim of Palestinian terror who was a survivor of a Nazi concentration camp. There are probably more. While this is going on Europe is basically siding with the terrorists. It's simply unforgivable.

Dom,

Pleased to make your acquaintance.

Immigration, I think, is a vast topic with an enourmous level of contention and serious issues. As to immigration agendas´and special interest groups, there is lot of both, especially where Mexico is concerned:

National Review, Krekorian

National Review, Buckley

#139

Athos,

I don’t frankly recall American’s being blamed for slavery on a regular basis

Frankly, I disagree. 150 years after the Civil War and nearly 50 since Martin Luther King Jr. white Americans are still subject to the obligatory guilt trip when it comes to Black America. America is routinely smeared as being a horrendously bigoted nation both abroad and domestically. Why do you think that Free Mumia rallies are so popular over in Europe (and here for that matter)? It's because we are a nation of racists and bigots of course. Why is it that "Reverend" Al Sharpton can accuse an innocent white male of a racially motivated rape that never occurred and then retain enough legitamacy to run for President? Why is it that Louis Farakahn (sp?) can routinely demonize Jews and claim that white people were created by a mad scientist and still have the gravitas to do interviews on CNN? Why does the current generation of Americans face the possibility of paying enormous sums in reparations for an institution a century and a half dead? Why? Because we must atone for our horrendously racist past of course, even though a lot of us, say...me, weren't even born in this country. This is given extensive coverage over seas and, frankly, I'm sick of it. I will not discriminate against a black person but I don't want to be subjected to guilt because of a lack of melanin.

Statements, philosophies, and geopolitics do not have to be complex. If they are complex, it is usually because there is some weaselspeak within the approach. There are times where right and wrong / good and evil are issues that are black and white and fit the simple answer or approach. I disagree that the American population of 300 million is fragmented. That is like saying America is still locked into the 2000 Presidential election. It ignores a few key points that have made a fundamental change to America – namely September 11, 2001 and the renewed focus on freedom, rights, and the perils facing America.

You really put quite a few words in my mouth there. I commented on what I'll call the Jacksonian Theory of foreign policy, not anything else. I agree that there are circumstances where a black and white approach are very valid. The fight against communism was a good example, so is the fight against terror. What I am saying is that I think this conflict is going to last a very long time and in the long run France and Germany will be "with us." We all share the Reformation and the Enlightenment and that, in my opinion, will steamroll our differences. I may be proven wrong but only time will tell.

Isn’t it simplistic to say that when push comes to shove, our common traits will do more to bring America together than the differences? Are there really that many common traits or more importantly common values?

I agree with this. I never said that Americans don't share core traits, it's just that the whole concept of national honor that defines Jacksonians is lacking in a big chunk of the American populace. You say so yourself:

Furthermore, this position also fails to acknowledge that there is, within America, a vocal minority that believes not in the principles of America, but in Anti-Americanism, Socialism / Marxism, and the elimination of freedoms. Their belief, demonstrated in the streets of DC and San Francisco last weekend, is not one that will ever reconcile with “mainstream” America. It is not an anti-war posture, but anti-American posture every bit as vocal here as it is in Europe.

Even the simplest of philosophies is much more complex when you take a deeper look. Christianity's core beliefs are the divinity of Jesus, the Triumvirate and the resurrection, is that all there is to it? The Containment policy of the Cold War stated to confront and contain communism wherever it attempted to spread but there were a lot of intricacies. Didn't we ally with Chinese communism to combat the USSR? We certainly didn't confront communism in Hungary when that nation revolted. There are reasons obviously but that just proves my point, even the most simplistic of philosophies has facets no one can see at a cursory glance.

#141 Dom:

objectivity is a minefield and noone with either a constitution or a dogma, however truth-seeking, can ever lay claim to it.

I agree that claims to possessing objective truth cannot be based on any constitution or dogma. And I have not said anything to the contrary.

My point is that moral truth, like scientific truth, is not a matter of opinion. It is "out there". A belief in the reality of objective truth doesn't tell us what the truth is. But it's enormously important nonetheless. Without that belief, modern science would not exist. Nor would the Enlightenment have been possible.

I believe that just as the scientific beliefs of Americans are, generally speaking, objectively more true than those of Saudi Arabians, so are their moral beliefs.

This has nothing to do with constitutions or dogmas. It has to to with the fact that American culture values the truth in a way that Saudi culture does not.

This is how the venerable BBC depicts the US in its introduction to the "USA Country Profile". Of course, the implication is that it is true, and that the Whites are responsible for this.

The US is the world's foremost economic and military power. It is also a major source of entertainment: American TV, Hollywood films, jazz, blues, rock and rap music are a primary ingredient in global popular culture.

Ethnic and racial diversity - the "melting pot" - is celebrated as a core element of the American ideology. In practice, racial violence, discrimination and segregation have been and continue to be a feature of American life.

USA Country Profile

Its funny how America gets it all the time.

Pig-Dog,

Pleased also.

So the first link seems to say, Fox's Mexico wants more immigration and less regulation, but instead of explaining much suggests America could use this desire for oil diplomacy leverage. The second suggests America isn't really naturalising these immigrants and anyway questions America's relations with Mexico. I still don't fully get the problem.

Nik,

This issue really bothers me. I should get out to mainland Europe more and see for myself how things are there. I've already said European leaders haven't taken a clear line on Israel, and the time is now. But there is not the urgency - as of yet - for Jews in protected countries like Britain to run to the States or Israel, and furthermore to do so would be the sort of panicky behaviour that really undermines the positive Jewish presence. Jews who left Britain in 1933 could have been fighting nazis in 1939 (as early as that).

Maybe Bez can help on mainland attitudes in the new Europe.

#65 Faster Please,

I believe that star signifies "Sheriff" like I believe that Gretta Duisenberg just picked the number of 6 million signatures for her shitty little Jew-hating petition out of thin air. NOT!

Aren't these Europeans so clever about their little "jokes." Yes, I am sure you will get some innocent "explanation" from some Europhreak that the choice of that star is ENTIRELY COINCIDENTAL. Just an innocent little slip, totally harmless, like the sign in front of that nice little jewelry store down the street that reads "FOUNDED" in 1942.

Let's face it, a German-speaking European country can't afford to have anything to do with a symbol that even remotely resembles a yellow star. Not-fucking-EVER. This star in this photo would be suspect if it were purple-and-puce.

Europeans don't seem to get it -- they have permanently lost the right to have anything to do with that symbol, ever, just like senior senators from Mississippi have permanently lost the right to make eulogies to Jim Crow laws and "Dixiecrats."

Deal with it, you sick mofos.

I can't argue that right isn't right and wrong isn't wrong. It's just that consensus based on common principles as to which is which is still a subjective consensus and reflects a harmonious pluralism, not a belief of objectivity. This is more than semantics, but about the right of others to hold differing views and to use common rationale in order to shape those views. Start talking about objectivity, moral superiority and low-truth value systems and you lose all that dialogue.

Put your name at the very top and not this top. Sorry.

Kolya's last post is from me.

#142 Nik - nice post.

The problem is that it doesn't take a majority to effect a pogrom. It takes a radical minority, and a complacent majority.

That certainly describes great swathes of this planet today. And judging by the momentum of the anti-Jewish movement, one worries about the validity of the old adage: History repeats itself.

Susan doesn't seem to get it.

Just as most Jews aren't the one that once ripped your Dad off, most Europeans aren't the sickos shown above. Now, what can I call you?

America is smeared as a racist and bigoted nation not because it is - but because of the American value system and sensitivity to that particular charge. The issues of American blacks aren't an issue of colour to these Europeans, it is an issue of class, and class warfare.

There is no love for blacks in America or for their rights from Europe. That is a misconception that is obvious given the complete lack of real support for black Africa by Europe. Where was the action against Mugabe in Zimbabwe and his terrible policies? Why are the French in the Ivory Coast - for rights, or to protect their interests (economic) there?

Europeans and others support the effort to Free Mumia not because they believe he was victimized for the colour of his skin, but because he is a radical / revolutionary. He is called a political prisoner first and foremost.

There are blacks in this country that are taking stands against the Farakhan's, the Jackson's, and in particular the Al Sharpton's. To my friends, these people are embarrassments to the black people. The only reason Al Sharpton is able to run for President is because their is no moral code, moral center, or belief in the principles in America in the Democratic Party. They believe, and have practised the premise that the end justifies the means. It is immaterial who you are, what you have done, if you are loyal to the political doctrine of the Party.

Slave reparations have no real legs in America. The main justification is not for reparations of slavery from 1776 to 1863 - but for the redistribution of wealth across America to the blacks. Again, its a class issue.

That is the crux of the issue - it's not colour - it's about ideology and the rise of near Marxist socialism in Europe. The focal point of their objection to the US positions are based on the fact that the US needs to "join" the global government, share it's wealth to those who have not earned wealth, and all of the other canards of multiculturalism. The anti-war protests in Washington and San Francisco were substantially less about the war, and significantly more about anti-Americanism and anti-George Bush. There was no moral position. Those demonstrations are no different from those in Europe or the bleating of the media and socialists in government there.

Yes, this will be a long fight, but until the voice of the pseudo-intellectual leftist that is the loudest in Europe is silenced by the rank and file people (if they finally learn to take a stand) nations like France and Germany will not join the US in this fight. It is not in the interest of the governments of France and Germany to support this fight. They want to weaken the US and it's influence in the world. They want to weaken the US economic power and fill that void. They want to hide the level and amount of economic and military aid that they provided to Iraq.

I would contest the position of Chino-US relations since 1972 as a case of allying with China in order to combat communism. The effort to open communications with China was more of an attempt to isolate a communist nation from USSR and not open a "2nd front" in the Cold War. The US relationship has been far from an alliance.

The US failure to support the 1956 Hungarian revolt, or the 1968 Czech invasion was based on the premise that neither situation, regardless of the value and bravery of those who attempted to throw out the Soviet puppet government was based on the desire to avoid a nuclear war or a 3rd world war which would have resulted with any military support from US or NATO. Until the last 5-8 years of Soviet power, the general belief in NATO was that if the Soviets and Warsaw Pact moved west, only nuclear weapons could stop them.

The more shades of gray that people want to place in a position, the more they are generally trying to hide.

Dom #153,

I have read quite a few of Susan's posts on this and numerous other threads, and I am sure that she gets it.

142 Nik 152 me2

For a pogrom, it is very true "
It takes a radical minority, and a complacent majority."

But for a Holocaust, research indicates the support is widespread and everyone in the community is a participant.

Me2 #155

We differ.

Europeans don't seem to get it -- they have permanently lost the right to have anything to do with that symbol, ever, just like senior senators from Mississippi have permanently lost the right to make eulogies to Jim Crow laws and "Dixiecrats."

Susan gets it perfectly well.

Yellow stars on hated people (rumsfeld), with a towering golden calf (the parable traditionaly trotted out by the church to demonstrate the perfidious, unstrustworthy nature of the jews).

This is pure jew hatred, poorly masked as political dissent. That the silent majority would stand by, and let this happen without remark or action is ENTIRELY par for the course.

Concentration camps? Ve didn't know there vere any concentration camps in Deutchland. Ve just thought the jews were trying to cross into Schweitz to try and work vithout permission. Ve simply sent them back, but at least ve let them open bank accounts first, Ja?

Well, just to be sure I've come across a real hillbilly site with my own brethren on it, can anyone tell me I'm definitely wrong to think these embittered people in the photo don't represent a unified European body with the ability to inflict imminent damage on the Jewish whole; also that it is a mistake to identify Europe not with it's broad politics but with this article?

#153, Dom

"Susan doesn't seem to get it.

Just as most Jews aren't the one that once ripped your Dad off, most Europeans aren't the sickos shown above. Now, what can I call you? "

If this ain't the "real" Europe, then what the fuck is "real" Europe doing to stop this crap from spreading?

If this shit appeared in the US there'd be counter-demonstrations and furious newspaper editorials everywhere.

I have a brother who's lived in Germany for 30 years. My brother's wife is Jewish and they don't tell ANYONE that little "embarassing" fact.

Me2, thanks for defending me.

Fuck Dom, are you blind?

They hate rumsfeld, and the worst thing they can call him, from their perspective, is a Jew.

If there was anything worse they could call him, they would, but there just isn't a worse epithet they could imagine.

You say it's not representative? Fine, where are the 250 million others like you? Hell, where are 250 europeans with the guts to gather, and say this is WRONG?

When I saw Susan's post my gut feeling was that she was spot-on.
Even the faint "sheriff" scribed in the star can't convince me that it was not modeled on the same Yellow Star used to identify Jews.
Susan and many more of us see it quite clearly.

Europe's silence isn't golden... it's yellow.

Hi TrueBob #156,

Nik also states in 142:

Recent anti-Israeli boycotts, anti-Semites in prominent positions mouthing off without any significant repercussions

Isn’t that how isolated pogroms evolved into a holocaust that involved the whole country? Methodical de-legitimization of Jewish professionals and business people, pushing them to the periphery of society. Add a steady diet of propaganda that dehumanizes the Jews. Point out how every problem that plagues the world is caused by the Jews. Before you know it... Is any of this relevant to today? I know that you don’t need a history lesson from me, but may I remind you that Germany in the 30's was the center of European civilization and Jews were well integrated. Does “never again” come with a guarantee?

Well of course it is fucking wrong. I'm just telling you, if anyone like me wants my friends and colleagues to agree don't fucking preempt me by calling all Europe Nazis. There's maybe eight people in that picture and I'd be a dick to get the Manchester Jews to have a rally over it.

As Jews let's unite, but don't be a bunch of stupid kneejerk provocateurs.

nik #142 said:

The problem is that it doesn't take a majority to effect a pogrom. It takes a radical minority, and a complacent majority. Recent anti-Israeli boycotts, anti-Semites in prominent positions mouthing off without any significant repercussions, absolute indifference to Palestinian terrorism taking 700 Jewish lives are some of the things which cause us to be seriously concerned about the road which Europe (and the whole world) is taking.

Exactly so. I agree that sins of omission can be just as devastating in their effect as sins of commission. That's why we need the Oriana Falaccis of this world.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I just don't trust the majority of Europeans to stand up and do the right thing as far as the Jews are concerned.

I must note, however, that there is one huge difference between the situation of the European Jews in the 1930's and their situation today: Israel exists and will welcome them with open arms.

Dom (#159) Hillbilly site? How insensitive to the poor folks of Appalachia.

At the risk of being accused of being a hillybilly - the message of these idiots in the photo is more mainstream in Europe than most Americans understand or are willing to admit.

There are 800K Jews in France, and over 5 million Muslims. France is one of the more anti-semitic nations....with regular attacks on synagogues particulary in Souther France - yet it has one of the most liberal immirgation and tolerance policies for Muslims.

There is no outrage in Europe for the actions of people and organizations that mirror the actions of the Nazis - the yellow stars, Juden Raus, etc..... and is this lack of outrage there is complicity to the message.

Look at America - Senate Majority leader - Trent Lott makes a completely improper statement about support for segregation. The outcry was substantial and across all political lines- but it was the actions of the supposedly racist Republican party that told Lott that his statement was inexcusable, and because of it, his leadership was no longer desired or supported.

Where is Le Monde or Der Spiegel or the Guardian, or the leaders of the EU standing up saying that any reference to Nazism and anti-semitism is not tolerated with those doing this being prosecuted for committing hate crimes. This isn't freedom of speech. It's yelling Fire in a crowded theater.

Yes, this is Europe in the 21st Century. This is Europe when led by France and Germany. This is the same Swiss viewpoint that condoned the murder of 6 million Jews and over 9 million Christians in Nazi Germany.

Hmm, upon closer inspection I would have to agree with #65. What first appeared to be a yellow felt star of david is really just a poor mockup of a Sheriff's badge. This explains why the caption didn't mention it--they probably had a high res version where the badge was readable.

No matter what they have written on them, tough, 6 pointed yellow felt patches are not exactly top form.

Here's another picture of Furry Ariel Sharon Man, fraternizing with the enemy in Davos:

It makes you wonder if these young people even knew what they were protesting against.

[Link: uruguay.indymedia.org...]

Athos,

Slave reparations have no real legs in America. The main justification is not for reparations of slavery from 1776 to 1863 - but for the redistribution of wealth across America to the blacks. Again, it’s a class issue.

Again, I disagree completely.

#1. To look at this is a simple class issue really doesn't make much sense. There are more white Americans below the poverty line than black ones but they aren't part of this case, are they? The plaintiffs in this case are black and state their claim ahead of time that they represent ALL black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. The core of the argument is based on the color of a people's skin.

#2. I don't think that your argument about a redistribution of wealth makes sense. These cases are currently targeting private companies but proponents are pressuring the federal and state governments to waive sovereign immunity so that they could be sued. How pray tell is this class warfare when it would be the American taxpayer footing the bill? I'm not part of the leisure class and I work hard for my money, why should it be "redistributed" to someone to whom I owe nothing.

These cases are about racially motivated greed, pure and simple.

As for Mumia, do you think that he would be getting half the attention he gets now if he were white? A tenth? No, of course not.

In regards to black leadership in this country, I agree to an extent. There are more and more leaders of that community that are trying to distance themselves from the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world. Rep. Watts and Rep. Ford just to name a couple but the fact remains that for the time being the big boys in this arena are the ones that scream racism when Whitey bats an eye. The Europeans, the entire world really, latch on to this claptrap and throw it back in our face at every opportunity. Just off the top of my head I can think of a least a dozen nations that have accused the US of institutional racism; China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Pakistan, Canada, Mexico...the list can go on, just read the roster of member nations at the UN.

It is not in the interest of the governments of France and Germany to support this fight. They want to weaken the US and its influence in the world. They want to weaken the US economic power and fill that void

I disagree. Do they want to usurp our position as richest and most powerful? I'm sure they do but that doesn't mean they want to see us dead. These are turbulent times in which we live but the fact remains that we share a cultural and ideological heritage with many Europeans that will bind us together no matter how much bitching all of us do.

The anti-war protests in Washington and San Francisco were substantially less about the war, and significantly more about anti-Americanism and anti-George Bush.

I agree. Now would you suggest giving up on our fellow Americans like you want to give up on the Europeans? I don't even know if you're American, I'm guessing no from your use of "u" in colour. These people do these things out of ignorance not malevolence, at least most of them.

We don't need to debate Cold War history because you seem intelligent and I'm sure we both know it fairly well. I think those examples, however you take them, serve to illustrate my point that "simplisme" isn't as simplistic as the French would like you to believe. The USA as a simplistic hyper-power implemented an incredibly complex strategic foreign policy for 50 years that had us involved in juntas in Argentina and arms dealing to Islamic terror states. Boiling down real politik to a catchy slogan doesn't make sense. George W. Bush said "you're with us or against us" but he understands that blurring the lines is the only way to make progress in a world where you cannot tilt at every windmill you see without assuring your own destruction.

The more shades of gray that people want to place in a position, the more they are generally trying to hide.

The Piano Man said it best, "Shades of grey are all that I know."

It is a grim, drab, gray world out there and it defies any attempt to redefine it as black and white.

Dom,

Your point is clear: don’t judge all of Europe by the actions of a few. And I am sure that LGFers agree with that. But we see so much more evidence that indicts Europe than that which exonerates Europe. Amy says it quite well:

I just don't trust the majority of Europeans to stand up and do the right thing as far as the Jews are concerned.

Dom (#115)

Yes, there are antisemites in Europe, but much of the above makes me ponder those Evil Yanks and their KKK. Nobody, not these protesters, not Bez, nancv, Og Ogilby (eeejit), Angua, Captain A, Asparagirl, not Neil G or even zulubaby will ever win anyone's support with an all out offense, and I'm telling them all off (politely).

Hello. What is it that I said specifically that would be termed an "all out offense"? I think this display of anti-Semitism is absolutely disgusting and I don't really care if that offends anyone. If that means that I don't get to win anyone's support, stiff. I've lived through worse.

So I'm saying that protest was a small ugly protest, not a mission statement delivered on behalf of Europe.

This "small ugly protest" is yet another incident in a seemingly endless series of incidents occuring in Europe these days. All of these "small" incidents are piling up quite alarmingly. I will not toss it aside as a "small" anything. It is my belief that the rising anti-Semitism is a very real cause for concern, and I take all such displays of Jew hatred seriously. Let me add that it is not my intention to offend you or anyone else, but if the fact that I'm offended and alarmed by how en vogue it is to hate Jews right now, offends you, so be it.

I may be showing my ignorance here, but aren't the KKK a banned organization? Besides, if the KKK tried to pull any shit at a World Economic Forum here, they would be squashed like flies. Personally, I've never seen a display such as the one above in America. I live in La La Land and we have our very own nutjobs to contend with. However, I don't feel like I have to personally take responsibility for every one of them just because they happen to live in the same city that I do. When people remark on how batty Californians are, I agree actually. I see it up close every day. My point is, why are you being so defensive about Europe? I don't understand why you are personalizing this.

My vote was not for the Apartheid government. Do I feel shame that I lived in Apartheid South Africa? To some degree yes (comes with the territory), but I also know that I was adamantly opposed to it and that I was vocal about that. Certainly in my everyday life, I chose to defy it. When people attack Apartheid, I don't feel like they are attacking me personally. Instead of defending Europe (and yourself) against a perceived attack, why aren't you as sick about this as I am?

Susan doesn't seem to get it.

Just as most Jews aren't the one that once ripped your Dad off, most Europeans aren't the sickos shown above. Now, what can I call you?

Frankly, we're not sure. That's a problem. Whatever the facts may be "Europe" projects an aura of antisemitism. We see it in the rising incidents of anti-Jewish crimes in many European countries, the lackadaisical response of the law in these countries (a German police commissioner advised Jews not to dress "Jewishly" last year -- Chirac of France accused Shimon Peres of slandering France to American Jewry and publically stated that American Jews are "taking orders" from "Jerusalem" to slander France...). We see it in the newspaper editorials and cartoons we read in your Euro newspapers (yes, not all Americans are yahoos who are spoonfed the news from CNN). Many of us have anecdotal evidence of antisemitic attitudes in Europeans we have encountered. We are also well aware of Europe's history of antisemitism. Did it really disappear 60 years ago? Well we're not sure at all.

Athos, I'm getting tired. Frankly a small anti-capitalist demo with strong antisemitic overtones does not a pogrom make.

Anyway, yes, I would like to see UK press outrage for the individual incidents and the mostly Muslim antisemitism. Papers must start seeing through the Muslim line.

You big prohets, you must understand, if you're labelled against your will, you identify collectively but collaboratively. Anti-European could become a very bad Jewish habit over there, and if I do escape to Israel, if it isn't too strong, I might really wonder where all the animosity came from.

zulubaby.

I made a blanket apology for those blanket remarks and I'm awful sorry to u2. I can't find what I was referring to - I was wrong on that.

Apt, tho'.

Kudos to the board, this was a fairly civil and productive thread.

Dom,

Welcome to the board. You bring an interesting perspective, I hope you keep posting.

Dom (#175)

Anti-European could become a very bad Jewish habit over there...

While that may be so, it is not nearly as dangerous as the anti-Jewish habit is becoming in Europe. I'm struggling to understand how you can fail to see that.

#174 Very good. Now it's an 'aura'.

Zulubaby it wasn't u.

Everyone else: I worry about the European stance but stable policies do prevail and on the flimsy evidence of this article don't all wet our pants about a pogrom. I refer everyone to everything I've said - I can't guarantee there won't be pogroms but then I can't guarantee Iraq won't win. It just isn't likely, understand?

There's better types of outrage than name-calling.

Hillbillies.

Dom (#176)

I must have missed the apology, but I accept it.

Apt, tho'.

?

Dom 179,

I prefer zionist hillbillie.

Thank you

#181

If you prefer. And I'm just a Zionist.

Way past UK bedtime; not long before you're rid of me.

Zulubaby,

Apt because this is how you responded when I listed you with an irrational bunch. That is how most Jew-friendly Europeans would react if instead of conveying a clear response I associated them with the most extreme sentiments going.

Bez, thanks and I will. I learnt good stuff here this weekend.

Nazi efforts to rid the world of Jews is well documented, and often mentioned and discussed.

The extermination camps in the Soviet Union, although widely known, are only rarely mentioned. The troubling part is that prominent Western intellectuals and politicians, claiming that it was not really Communism that caused this obscenity, thereby clearing the road from obstacles to Communism/Marxism, often disassociate the Gulags.

So although anti Jewish activity in Europe is widespread, also these same pigs could put Christian people in a camp because they "dissented", a very real possibility should the West somehow slip into mayhem.

At least there is high awareness about the Holocaust and it is directly associated with Nazism/Fascism.

The Gulags and Socialism do not enjoy this association.

Let's pick on Muslim imperialists, Anti-Zionist anti-capitalists, anti-Israel media, globally. Then maybe we can stop running around, we won't be picking on anyone who isn't our enemy already.

163 me2

"Does “never again” come with a guarantee?"

I don't know if you were being rhetorical with this. IMO, as long as those countries, such as the U.S., that have made these guarantees retain their power to intercede I think most of us are safe.

When I see what's going on in Europe I wonder. I didn't think that in my lifetime I would ever see the kind of antisemitism that we see to-day. It gives me new respect for my parents generation of American Jews, who had to cope with much higher levels of antisemitism here before and during WWII, and the reality of the butchery in Europe. When you read the history of the war itself, only a few stupid decisions kept Hitler from his goals. There is an old saying, 'Never say never." I don't like to think about it, because the balance of sanity in this world is sometimes a precarious thing.

Regarding "isolated pogroms evolved into a holocaust ", the books I read suggested the Holocaust in Germany had active participation and support at all levels down to the street.

I don't want to split hairs here, but IMO the Holocaust does not pre-date Hitler's government, while the isolated Nazi pogroms do. Once the regime was entrenched and the policy institutionalized it was respectable. So there wasn't a gradual evolution...it went from being fringe acceptable to mainstream once the Nazi regime imposed itelf and the Nuremburg laws were in place.

PDM says

Europe's silence isn't golden... it's yellow.

That's true on so many levels.

TrueBob says

I don't want to split hairs here, but IMO the Holocaust does not pre-date Hitler's government, while the isolated Nazi pogroms do. Once the regime was entrenched and the policy institutionalized it was respectable. So there wasn't a gradual evolution...it went from being fringe acceptable to mainstream once the Nazi regime imposed itelf and the Nuremburg laws were in place.

I disagree, these laws sure found fertile ground to take root. And it was rather gradual; the progression of vilifying the Jews to the point that murdering them seemed sane took several years and came in stages designed to acclimate the population to this madness.

A key point you make is:

as long as those countries, such as the U.S., that have made these guarantees retain their power to intercede I think most of us are safe.

I agree with this, but we would have to rely on the U.S. taking military action against European powers on behalf of the Jews. Maybe they would.

Is is possible that a far right or far left government can come power in an EU country? Stalinist Russia managed to kill millions "under the radar" of the west.

Gosh, you go away for a couple of hours, and by the time you come back, you are an offensive person.

I certainly don't mean to imply that every European has Mein Kampf by the pillow and is counting down to Kristallnacht The Sequel by sharpening the long knives, or whatever.

I've only been in Europe a few times and only know a few Europeans closely, so I know I am not speaking from close personal experience, but from the impression I get from the media and from my knowledge of history. And I know that media mostly covers "man bites dog" stories, so thousands of pictures of non-Jew-hating Europeans go unpublished for every outrageous one.

But, over the past two years, these stories keep appearing at a clip. After a while, "synagogue desecrated in France" moves to page 28 in the newspaper, and then disapperas altogether, becoming "dog bites man", as it were.

Certainly, one or two or twenty anti-Capitalism demos with anti-Semitic overtones do not a pogrom make. Gosh, even any number of pro-Palestinian demos with extra-strong anti-Semitic overtones do not a pogrom make. But...

I was never afraid of European neo-Nazis and their anti-Semitism, because every demo with 300 neo-Nazis was accompanied by a counter-demo with literally hunderds of thousands of mainsteam people holding candles.

But all the news I get from Europe these days are like "French Jews flee to Israel as racist attacks mount", and I hear nothing of any counter-protest. This worries me, because -- from across the ocean and through the lens of the media -- I get the feeling that these sentiments are becoming more mainstream. I would be absolutely thrilled if someone would tell me otherwise.

And, when these incidents do occur, I can't help but put them into historical context. How many desecrated synagogues count as a statistical anomaly, and when do they become part of a pattern? And, if they are part of a pattern, how far should it stretch -- the last 2 years, or the last 200 years?

So your part in the European media war - something quite different, 'tis true, from the US media coverage - would be to suggest that Europe is pretty Nazi anyway, what are the Jews still doing there?

I know it's well intended and thanks for your input, but we'll call you.

Looking back on the last year, it seems that anti-semitism has been the most intense in April 2002 and January 2003. Things got better after April. They will get better after January.

Damn I've done it again. My above post is for Me2.

Angua, I don't mean to suggest your fears aren't valid, merely to take a proactive opinion, which you have.

So your part in the European media war - something quite different, 'tis true, from the US media coverage - would be to suggest that Europe is pretty Nazi anyway, what are the Jews still doing there?

American Jews do wonder that, yes.

I know it's well intended and thanks for your input, but we'll call you.

You're welcome and we sincerely hope you'll never need to call.

They will get better after January.

Why?

Dom,

Check the "remember me" box (and it's always a good idea to use the preview function that Sir Charles so kindly provides for us).

Dom,

Is it so terribly unlikely that any thought of it, any discussion of it, is purely a waste of time?

Hoping won't do it, James.

I'm done. :)

Oh, I'll check the box. Thanks Zulubaby.

Me2, Just to say, it misses the cause of all this, which is those Muslim fanatics.

Dom,

Good enough, brother. Hope to see you again.

Susan is absolutely right that Europe has forfeited for eternity the right to use a six-point yellow star in any context.

But I will go further and say Europe has forfeited for eternity the right to say Boo to the Jews in any context.

THEY will give moral instruction and strategic advice to the Jews and/or Israel?
Well, here I will quote a French idiom:
C'Est A Rire.

Dom,

I meant that in the best possible way, I hope you realized. I am hoping European Jewry won't "call" because I'm hoping they won't need to. Should they, God forbid, I am hoping [the collective] we will heed that call.

Just so you realize that we're not launching ad-hominem attacks on Europe. We're sincerely concerned with the present atmosphere we percieve in Europe towards Jews. Hopefully this is promtpted by over caution borne out of historical experience and not accurate perception.

Anyway, I (and I think we) mean well. :)

James,

I know.

:)

Smiles for everyone.

OK, finally I'm logging off straightaway for all of an hour's sleep before work.

Dom,

I have in the past defended (ordinary) Europeans because I have many Euro cyberpals who see what is going on there and are very frightened about it and have written to me frankly about it.

However, the ordinary Euro doesn't seem to have much say in what is going on. Your governments, academic institutions, NGOs and media seem to be under control of some very sick people.

If Euros don't want to be stereotyped in th US as anti-Semites and anti-American and everything else we hear coming out of that continent these days, they need to find a way to stand up to the sicko elites and make their voices heard.

I read the UK press almost everyday. Everyday there is some smug editorial about how "afraid" Europe is of the war-mongering fascist bully US, or how much anti-Americanism is rising in Europe, or some other American-vilifying subject -- blah, blah blah.

What I never see are articles pointing out how much Americans are starting to become afraid of Europe. Do the European elite understand at all how much we really, really are starting to hate them?

Dom (#201)

OK, finally I'm logging off straightaway for all of an hour's sleep before work.

LOL! I see you've been bitten on the ass by the LGF lovebug. It's addictive, be warned :-) Sleep well.

187 - me2

Here we go. :)

I haven't delved into Holocaust minutiae for some time, so I shouldn't be splitting hairs about anything.

I would agree that the answer to Hitler's Jewish Question evolved. The Final Solution was extermination. But I don't agree that Hitler was concerned to ""to acclimate the population to this madness", except by fear for their life and livelihood.

From the time of the Nuremburg laws in 1935, which resulted in the dismissal of all Jewish civil servants, employees, and workers who still held their jobs, and the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor enacted the same day, the morality of dispossessing and ridding Germany of Jews was established and lawful.
The means, the management, the technology, and the opportunity to get rid of Jews dictated the type of solution.

The pogroms are coming, there is no doubt about it. Not this year and not the next, but the black anti-semitic heart of Ureopeans never changed and little by little they are regaining their confidence to show it and act on it.

It's time time for jews to leave, and for the few good European right-thinking people that there still are. There WILL be a war, probably not in this decade but perhaps the next, and this time there will be no more Europe left to rebuild by the time it is all over.

It's becoming clear that Morgenthau had it right about Germans after all. We should have made sure that vile continent could never rise again, but the peaceniks never understand reason, they always think that hopeless cases like Uropeans or the satanic cult of Islam can be cured. Well they can't. They can be contained, they can be destroyed (annexing Europe after WWII and thoroughly re-educating them through several generations would count as destruction of culture - I don't mean genocide necessarily), but some things can't be cured.

from #160:

I have a brother who's lived in Germany for 30 years. My brother's wife is Jewish and they don't tell ANYONE that little "embarassing" fact.

To me, this is one of the most disturbing aspects of European anti-semitism. It's still not acceptable to be a Jew here (I live in Germany). You cannot assert yourself as a Jew. The only people who do this are Jewish community leaders, who tend to be unappealing to the general public. So the only image the average European gets of Jews, besides those horrendous Israelis persecuting the poor, noble Palestinians on the news, is some guy in a skullcap waving his finger about anti-semitism.

The Israel-Palestine issue and the anti-globalisation movement are two separate issues. The fact that some Europeans conflate the two is not sufficient justification to equate one with the other or to attack the left for "anti-Semitism", especially not outside of Europe.

This picture does not change my opinions about the WEF or the WTO one iota.

Switzerland may be the first country in Europe that adopts sharia.

Switzerland has the one of the most enlightened forms of democracy, where citizens on a cantonal basis, decide policy on all manner of issues. The cantonal vote is all important. For instance, till around 1980, some cantons in Switzerland, did not allow women the vote. Again in many cantons, women did have not financial independence. This was because men voters did not allow it.

Now ofcourse Switzerland is a very enlightened democracy with more or less everything decided by a cantonal vote. This nis its strength and now its weakness. With the average population of a canton about 150,000, its easy for a growing Mulsim population in a canton, to simply adopt Sharia on a cantonal referendum.

Can anyone imagine a neutral Muslim Switzerland?

From the words of Dr. King, of blessed memory: "When People criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it." This is one to save on your hard drive, and pass along.

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfillment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

"This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism.

"The anti-Semite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the anti-Semite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate anti-Semitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

"Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

#209

My god!

You need to go and study Zionism and anti-Zionism a bit I think...as did Dr. King.

Go back to 19th Century Central Europe and look at its roots, you'll find as many Jewish sceptics towards Zionism (Benjamin, Kafka, Kraus et al.) as people who identify the movement with some kind of "returning home".

Martin Luther King's words served their purpose in the political and social context of the time he was writing, particularly in terms of racial politics...by making them "timeless" you miss the point.

Letchworth

# 210

Jews are free to choose whether or not they want to live in Israel, and realize the Zionist dream personally...but this dream kept jews together in Exile and you can't separate the Zionist movement from the JEwish people.

Also, make no mistake anyone who is against Zionism is against Jews. PEOPLE have always lived in Israel...its JEWISH people living their that they have a problem with.

209 QueenEsther

Excellent. Thanks for that.

comment directed to all the Euro Jews on the boards -

Guns are legal in the United States still - at least in some places. Come over here - if there is ever a Pogrom here, at least you know you will be able to take a few dozen of the bastards out before your house goes up in flames. This is not a rhetorical comment.

Dom #141,

It's a petty point for me to push and I hope you'll forgive me but, objectivity is a minefield and noone with either a constitution or a dogma, however truth-seeking, can ever lay claim to it.

I'm going to suppose that you mean to set up objectivism as one philosophy and moral relativism as the opposite philosophy. Moral relativism is very easy to prove wrong:

1) A reductio ad absurdum argument suggests that if morality is determined on a cultural basis, it could be on a national, regional, township, or individual basis. If this is the case, the whole term "morality" comes to have no meaning, which suggests that moral relativism is fundamentally immoral.
2) A common sense argument. If the US does not have slavery and the Sudan has slavery, and assuming ceterus paribus, moral relativism suggests that the two cultures are equal in moral weight. Common sense decrees that moral relativism, therefore, is fundamentally immoral.

Objectivism is much more complicated to prove incorrect. Most who try assert that one persons morality may not correspond to another persons. While this may well be true, it can be hoped that all would agree that murder (not killing, but murder) is fundamentally wrong. If it is true that murder is objectively wrong irrespective of culture, then it is possible for moral objectivism to be a viable philosophy.

Some have commented about Japanese antisemitism. There is very little to speak of. I've lived there for nine years and have considerable experience with Japanese people. I've worked with them too.

The link provided by david is quite accurate at providing a history of Japanese help for Jews.

Japan has a society of people who allow Jews to stay in their houses for up to three days for free, simply because they respect Jews as being one of the oldest religions in the world. I don't think you would find this to be the case in an antisemitic country.

Just intuition and consensus, which means call it what you like but keep dialogue and logic in the picture. And I'm not an expert, but 'objectivism' sounds like suspending my objections and being as brainwashed as anyone likes. What made you assume that about me?

Dom #216,

And I'm not an expert, but 'objectivism' sounds like suspending my objections and being as brainwashed as anyone likes.

I'm no expert either. The idea behind a philosophy of moral objectivism does not mean that you must "suspend your objections" or be brainwashed. In fact, you can believe that there is such a thing as objective moral truth and at the same time believe that there is no way to know what all of the objective moral rules are.

What made me think you think like a moral relativist was your quote from #141 cited above.

I lived and worked in Tokyo as a banker and speak some Japanese. They are quite anti-Semitic; a fact that always amazed me. As an example, when I would introduce a local US biggie in Tokyo on business and a customer of our bank's, there would frequently ensue an animated conversation among the Japanese on whether or not the visitor was a "kyu ichi".

"kyu" = nine
"ichi" = one

Nine plus one equals....geddit?

"ju" = ten

Ariel,

Good, you've enlightened me, and thanks for picking me up on it.

This doesn't contradict what you've said, but the context above was about claiming to be objective. I accept there can be an objective truth and I'm sure that's worth examining, but there's no argument in claiming objective superiority. I suspect we're in agreement.

:)

Theodopolous,

I suppose we are going to have disagree then. In my time there (nine years), and my work experience, I never encountered anything but veneration for Judaism.

I saw a large temple (which literally dominated a town) with a giant Jewish star on it. We went into the temple and found that they had put it there to honor the oldest religion.

Many of the people I worked with said "Ah, Yudayajin desuka?" (Oh, you're Jewish) in a tone of voice representing which could only be described as veneration or admiration.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised by your experiences, and wonder if they might not have been thinking positively while making that sort of play on words. As you probably know, plays on words are quite common in Japan and the disease of political correctness does not really exist - so it might have been nothing more than that, IMO.

#209:QueenEsther

Thanks.

215

I haven't looked into current antisemitism in Japan. I know their dependency on Arab oil has forced the Israel boycott on them. Trade with the Arab world would bring exposure to antisemitism.

But earlier, in WWII days, the Hiriohito regime bought into the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to the extent that they provided sanctuary in Manchuria to Jews fleeing Eastern Europe in the hope this would convince the Jews 'pulling the strings in Washington' to back-off on trade boycotts, particularly steel.

Much has been written about the survival of the Shanghai Jewish community, the survival of the entire Mir Yeshiva. One of the most readable accounts(IMO) is The Fugu Plan.

Once the U.S. had entered the war and Japan's alliance with Hitler was tightened, the Nazi's pushed for a 'solution' to the Shanghai Jews. I forget many of the details, but the Nazi's sent the officer who raised the Warsaw ghetto to assist the Japanese with their problem. One of the proposed solutions was to load the Jews into old ships with no provisions, tow them far out to sea and leave them to die.

Several Japanese officers interceded to confuse plans as they arose, and the community was spared. Israel has honored these Japanese as Righteous Gentiles, I believe one or several were buried in Israel with state honors. A star among them was Japanese Consul to Lithuania, Chiune Sugihara, who issued thousands of visas.

Japs aren't very honest people. Not with each other, especially not with gaijin. They are very good at lying through their teeth. They say one thing most convincingly, you'd never imagine it could be less than honest, but they still think something completely different. What they say depends more on what they think is convenient than the truth.

They call it "tatemae". I call it lying. I suppose that's very simplistic and unilateral of me.

I would also say that they are probably THE most racist people on earth and they changed none since WWII. There's another people in the need of Morgenthau plan in 1945. Lying racist f*cks.

Although that letter cited by QueenEster is consistent with views King expressed, sadly the letter is hoax.

In a speech at Harvard in 1968 King did utter this quote:

“When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism.”

The debunking was not by some "indymedia" jew-hate group rather our own CAMERA.org.

King was a friend to the Jews and Israel so let us not create red-herrings by using discredited sources for his more than credible ideals.

224 Thanks for that. Luckily, I hadn't passed it on or referred to it yet, so I don't have to run around apologizing. That's what happens when you relax for a moment and don't check sources.

Japs aren't very honest people
...
Lying racist f*cks.
#223: umm, isn't that comment itself, well, racist?

The only westerners the japs admire (and fear) are the Germans and the Jews. The former for their efficiency, engineering prowess, and marshal history and organization (upon which the Japanese based their military modernization at the turn of the 20th century), and the latter for the typical stereotypical strengths and powers they are assumed to have - that they control the cultural and economic direction of the West, and are thus a force to be reckoned with as well. There is an ambivalence about this- hence there are judeo -sympathizers who act out of admiration, and anti-semites of a sort - who act out of a belief the jews are a threat to japan - but not a subhuman threat. Its different from european jew-hatred.

The Japanese are not politically correct, at all, and think, and, subtly, act accordingly. They are racists of the worst kind, discriminating not only on the basis of ethnicity going back generations (eg 10th generation Koreans still thought of as 'koreans' and socially discriminated against - though they are racially identical) but even, in the popualr culture, on the basis of blood type and family histories of cancer. They are a true substance code culture - dividng the human world into castes.

"Shortly before releasing deadly sarin gas on the Tokyo subway in March 1995, the Aum Shinrikyo religious cult published a vicious 95-page antisemitic tract that declared war on its Jewish archenemy. The gassing of the Tokyo subway was the culmination of a century of Japanese theorizing about Jews, an important part of which has been antisemitic. In recent years, books blaming Jews for everything from the designs on Japanese currency to the 1995 Kobe earthquake have appeared, and some have sold millions of copies."

Back On Topic:

My parents, who have spent a fair amount of time in Switz every year for decades, and speak the lingos, say that it is highly unlikely that any swiss would have participated in this sort of demonstration.

They are completely apathetic about any political or military conflict outside of their own country. They are selfish, and wouldn't take the time of day to either protest against a war against arabs (who they consider useful only as bottom rung gast-arbeiter), or against anti-semitic actions taking place on their own soil, as long as no one got hurt, and there is plausible deniability that the action is anti-semitic.

Anyhow, that's what mom and dad have to say ;)

It may be worth noting that three years ago, Aum Shinrikyo changed their name to "Aleph".

228 Maine Michael

Sounds about right. These demonstrators are professionals who travel the world to disrupt high level meetings. There may a cadres of locals, but they don't run the show...and it is a show.

One article I read suggested that the centre of the European political continuum is where the American left is.

Maine's Michael #227,

AUM is about as small and unsupported a group as can be imagined in Japan. If it had been a group like Sokka Gakkai, you could say that there is evidence for a reasonable amount of Jew-hatred.

That said, I do agree that the Japanese are ambivalent toward the Jews for the reasons you cited. (But could you call them the Japanese?)

#226:
No. It's calling things as they are. I'm sorry if the honesty hurts your liberal PC sensibilities, but lying racist f*cks is exactly what the japs are. Same goes for Chinese and Koreans too, btw. You make the mistake of trusting them a couple of times and taking their friendliness and smiles and politeness for real a couple of times, maybe you'll then learn what a vile and untrustworthy crowd the orientals really are. (And that's why I think we should destroy China while we can.)

A subtle nuance about scribbling "Sherriff" on a Juden star that no one has commented on: the anti-globos are furiously against the US acting as the "world's policeman," hence Rumfield portrayed as a "Sherriff" obviously in the employ of the vast Zionist conspiracy.

Jan (#232), you are a racist idiot.

I'm not saying this to be p.c., I'm saying this as someone who grew up in an ethnically mixed area, and whose friends and schoolmates included Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Filipino Americans. I hate to see your kind of wholesale bigotry on LGF.

New Pipes article discusses Why Europe Balks.

kids charlemagne #234,

I couldn't agree more.

Ariel,

I don't believe the word 'jap' is considered racist anymnore. Could be wrong, but I don't see it as such.

Anyhow, no racism or slur intended.

It's funny to say but I'm almost glad that there are idiots on this board who are willing to spoutt this racist bullsh*t about a group other than Arabs and Muslims.

Do those of you who find this distasteful understand what it looks like when it's espoused about the aforementioned groups? Same shit with different people but it doesn't call down the same indignation. Why?

Bez,

Speaking for myself, it's because the Japanese aren't trying to kill me.

#234:

But you ARE being PC and the lefties have apparently made such a good job brainwashing you that you don't even understand that. The fact that you think your nice asian-american friends somehow disproves what I said shows how the whole argument whizzed right past your head.

See, Japanese as a race are no different from whites. Never said otherwise. Nor are Chinese or Koreans. Or Arabs or Persians or Germans.

Problem is their vile culture. Japanese or European grown up and raised to say traditional American or Israeli values is likely to be a fine human being. And white or black or latino American raised in Japan is likely to be a racist lying f*ck like the others around him. Raised in France they'd be cowardly arrogant appeasers of evil, raised in Gaza they'd be bloodthirsty antisemitic murderers, raised in Russia they'd be nice friendly people who drink a lot etc.

Let me make this very clear to you: I have nothing but contempt for the nazis and KKK and their ilk who spread their racist lies. Race has little to do with who we are.

But at the same time I recognize inferior cultures that should have been destroyed when there was the chance, for the benefit of next generations everywhere.

That is not racism, just a fact about cultures. Denying that fact is naive optimism at best, leftist moral relativism at worst.

THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT TALK OR ACT FOR A WHOLE COUNTRY!!!

isn't it time to get rid of such clichés, to stop generalizing and start with some self-reflexion?

#239

Ariel,

Every single one huh?

I agree with a lot of your points and you seem a very rational person. Think this through.

Bez #243,

Every single one huh?

Well, clearly it is not every single Muslim who is trying to kill me. In fact, one of my best friends is a Muslim (to pull one from the antisemites handbook - though I am actually serious).

But quite seriously, I would not indict the totality of Islam for the behavior of a portion. However, I have yet to see the non-muhajideen version of CAIR, MPAC, MSA, etc in the US (at least). I would really like to see a Muslim representative body, in the US (and preferably elsewhere as well) that opposed terrorism in an unequivocal fashion. I would like it to stand up and show that there are really moderate Muslims and that they are a large group. Right now, through firsthand knowledge, I do know that such a thing exists in certain ways - but even the moderate Muslims I know go apeshit with regards to Israel.

My point here was that the Japanese, as a body politic, are not trying to kill me. AUM Shinrikyo may have tried to do so at a certain point in time but they were opposed by large segments of the Japanese population. I'm afraid that if large numbers of Muslims oppose terrorism unequivocally, I have yet to hear their protestations.

I would also like said Muslims to be able to speak without having fatwas dropped on their heads, as seems to happen to the few moderate Muslims who do have the courage to speak out.

rich, selfish, racist boy from switzerland #242,

isn't it time to get rid of such clichés, to stop generalizing and start with some self-reflexion?

Well, why don't you go ahead and start the self-reflection. Did you go to Davos and protest against these folks?

Frankly speaking, I think the problem will not be Iraq but Afghanistan. Iraq has already fallen (Saddam even went whining to the UN). Think further. The Hydra is gathering there again. NOTHING has been solved in this mediaval country. Clan structures are intact. I guess in the shadow of the glorious Iraq attack, there will be another campaign of al Qaida. In Afghanistan where forces are weak. This brainless shithead is one of the assemblers of troops who already mellowed the Russians (Myers already pointed that out). Open your eyes, the Hydra is popping out new heads, and they are quickly growing. The country is not under control. I do not think 8.000 GIs are enough. Even though they are supplied with free porn by Mr Aaron Gordon.

#244

Ariel,

Again, I agree with most of your points but the question remains as to whether it's ok to make racist statements about a whole group of people.

While not a Muslim per se I come from a (semi)Islamic heritage. I can't think of anyone I'm related to saying anything about Jews other than being grateful for Israeli assitance during our troubles. Maybe the problem is that for those that come from a heritage like my own is that their world doesn't revolve around Israel and the Palestinians? If I stopped reading my blogs every day I could easily go a long time without thinking about the situation in Israel.

Racist statements on a broad scale lead to dehumanization and we all know what lies down that dark and shadowed path. It disturbs me when intelligent people condone some of the things that are said on here.

Bez #247,

Again, I agree with most of your points but the question remains as to whether it's ok to make racist statements about a whole group of people.

I agree with you and I thank you for calling me on it. There was a time, this past summer, when it seemed as though LGF would be overrun by anti-Islamic nutters whose only thought about any article would be "Nuke Mecca". I'll admit that there are times when I've felt like that, though I don't believe I've written it because the feeling usually passes. I tried to disagree with them (along with others) and I think that the degree of anti-Islamic statements being made is considerably less than before.

My problem has basically come down to an issue of how much time I have and how many comments there are on LGF. I usually don't keep up with every thread any more because I wouldn't be able to get any work done. I don't write as many comments as before because just reading takes too much of my time.

A lot of times, people are just too whacky for me to be bothered responding to. A lot of the anti-European rants are just incomprehensible to me. A lot of Nastification Agenda's posts (when he used to post here) were just way out there.

Still, though, I know I have made comments when people go a little more crazy then usual with their anger about Islam. In an ideal world, I would be able to stop the demonization of Islam. I feel that the majority of the people who are regulars don't believe that all Muslims are Islamofascists and that not all of Islam is our enemy. But I can't fight every single time every single person says something, just like I can't for anti-European comments.

I suppose that it's fair to say that I have a higher tolerance for anti-Muslim rhetoric then for anti-Japanese or anti-Jewish rhetoric. That is shitty of me, and it's something I'll strive not to do. I think it's fair to say that it has something to do with my close identification with these peoples - I am Jewish and grew up in Japan.

Sorry about the long introspective discussion.

Ariel,

I too have known muslims, and the shitty thing about it is that as individuals and as families, at least here in N. America, they are warm, and friendly, and very pleasant company for the most part.

Until the topic of Israel arises, and Mr. and Mrs. Hyde appear.

I was at the Davos demonstration last Saturday. Do I really see right? Are you too stupid to read the word 'sheriff' on a sheriff-star,or is it part of your anti-Europe, anti-rest-of-the-world campaign?!? That's the way Americans do politics.
It would be great if you would look a bit over the American horizon, reading foreign literature e.g. [Link: www.heise.de...] instead of only listening to the official Brainwashington press...

mathis (#250)

I would read your link but your post is so obnoxious that I trust your link will be something vile. Am I right? Let me be the first to give you a warm welcome of fuck off.

The people that post here may be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them. We leave that for loverrrrs like you. Idiot.

Whoa,
maaajor case of tunnel vision or cognitive dissonance or whatever you want to call it. You should take a deep breath and sit down, Charles. It DOES say "Sheriff" on the yellow star, doesn't it? You can argue that this is a very clumsy criticism of the Wyatt-Earp style of american foreign policy, but you can't bitch about "Antisemitism in Switzerland" based on this picture. Take some eye-drops and some valerian and go to bed early for a change.

T. H. of Suburbia/Switzerland,

You did 't really answer my question in #83. What is your view of these protests? Are the people involved Swiss citzens? Do they reflect the views of many Swiss (i.e. that Sharon is a monkey (a favorite islamist description of Jews), worshipping the golden calf and money?---(again quite antisemitic, I think))?

Also, sheriff's stars in the US are most often 5 pointed and metallic, NOT 6 pointed and yellow. 6 pointed and yellow is usually understood to be the type that the german nazis required European Jews to wear. Adding the "sheriff" is a ploy to confuse and provide plausible deniability for apologists, and to conflate differing issues into a writhing mass of propaganda.