I wonder if France considers the gift of the Statue of Liberty a big mistake?

[Link: punditree.blogspot.com...]

Well oui can help you with your zionist problem.

The only problem in dealing with HEU is that it really makes one's knuckles itch.

I guess this is a companion piece to the Rummy/ Saddam photo.

[Link: i.cnn.net...]

I'm just speechless.

#1,we should give it back as they need it more than we do. Naw.

The thought of someone that evil being so close to a nuclear reactor is chilling. Even worse, Saddam's there, too.

Everyone should actually watch the Flash animation as well. It's really well done and fun to see.

Is that George C. Scott in between them?

#4: I was thinking the same thing. If some lefty e-mails me the (disgraceful) Rumsfeld photo, I'll reply by sending them this one.

America constantly gets thrashed for the support they once gave Saddam. (With good reason.) Funny that the French, who are so desperately trying to save his ass, never come in for similar criticism.

#9: I think the guy in the middle looks like Steven Seagal, circa On Deadly Ground.

#11 - it's a subtle reference. Work with me, here.

Maybe the UNSC needs to send inspectors in to France?

Well, Chirac is a Frog politician. WTF do you expect? I don't know about the people of France, but where the Jews are concerned, Frog politicos have always been self-serving, craven, duplicitous bastards. De Gaulle said it best: "States do not have friends, they have interests."

France supplied Israel with weapons up until 1967. Then, when the Israelis had the chutzpah to defend themselves against impending doom in 1967, de Gaulle wrote them off, since they had had the temerity to disobey him. Ever since then, the Frog government has been sucking Arab dick.

The Frogs are in it for the oil and the money. The Arabs have a lot of both. The Israelis have little of either. Do the math.

#12:
"General! Ambassador! You can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

Ah, the sweet medicine of lefty propoganda being turned 180 and back in their faces --- good work, Charles. Maybe this, rather than reasoned argument based on facts and logic, and genuine concern for humanity, should have been our approach all along?

As a former lefty, this one really speaks to me.

And NC, #7 was so FUNNY!

#15 I wonder if Herr Shroeder was playing the Good Doctor.

I read recently that the Israelis called Osirak "O-Chirac" in honor of his role in its construction.

#15 - Dr. Strangelove. Brilliant movie.

Maccabee:

France supplied Israel with weapons up until 1967. Then, when the Israelis had the chutzpah to defend themselves against impending doom in 1967, de Gaulle wrote them off, since they had had the temerity to disobey him.

Actually, the break came months before June 1967. France refused to deliver missile boats (built at Cherbourg) that Israel had already paid for. They likewise refused to deliver Mirage fighters that had been paid for. And they refused to refund the money for either, a blatant case of "What are you going to do about it?"

What Israel did was to smuggle their boats out of Cherbourg (with some help from sympathetic locals), causing massive embarrassment to the French government. They couldn't grab the Mirages the same way, so the Mossad did something even better --- they stole the Mirage blueprints. That wasn't easy, as the blueprints for a Mirage wouldn't easily fit inside of a semi trailer. Israel used the blueprints to produce their own Kfir fighter.

That "shitty little country" sure does know how to make those French sophistos look like fools. Good thing there were no hard feelings, right?

Kanan Makiya, one of the more respected figures in the Iraqi exile opposition, angrily exposed U.S. plans in the London Observer on Sunday. This is Makiya's description of the plan presented to him by Zalmay Khalilzad, the former oil company representative who now serves as U.S. envoy, and other American officials:

"The United States is on the verge of committing itself to a post-Saddam plan for a military government in Baghdad with Americans appointed to head Iraqi ministries, and American soldiers to patrol the streets of Iraqi cities.

"The plan, as dictated to the Iraqi opposition in Ankara last week by a United States-led delegation, further envisages the appointment by the U.S. of an unknown number of Iraqi quislings palatable to the Arab countries of the Gulf and Saudi Arabia as a council of advisers to this military government."

Meanwhile, the Turkish government is demanding billions in tribute and the right to invade northern Iraq and crush nascent Kurdistan. Patrick Cockburn, reporting from Erbil where he interviewed Kurdish leaders, says they now "fear that a U.S.-led war against President Saddam might be the occasion for a Turkish effort to end the de facto independence enjoyed by Iraqi Kurds for more than a decade." How terribly predictable it is that the supposed friends of Kurdish self-determination would betray them yet again. Critics of the anti-war demonstrators arraigned them for their naivete -- an accusation always directed at advocates of peace, sometimes plausibly. But how naive are those who believe that the aim of the impending war is to "liberate" Iraq?

Those crazy lovebirds:

[Link: www.zdf.de...]

The Bush Administration needs to let Chirac know that he better start cooperating or France goes on the sh** list for a very long time.

that the aim of the impending (emphasis added)

Aim? No. Result? yes.

Sec (#22)--Well done.

Hmm I smell a Troll..

Don't feed the Troll...

Go back to your cave TP

That visit was one of the very few times Saddam has traveled outside the Arab world. He was not ruling Iraq back in 1975 but you can see how long he's had nuke envy.

Are you sure Its the guy on the far right, or is it the guy second from the right? He at least looks more similar to current pictures of Chiraq.

Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't Israel get their nuke technology from France?

OK, let me get this straight:

o France's PM is an old buddy of Saddam's, going back nearly thirty years. Helped build Saddam's nuke program, in fact.

o Germany's foreign minister had terrorists sleeping over at his place before they carried out their attacks.

And the anti-war nuts are looking to these people for "leadership"?

#28 Tony Hooker

Chirac is the guy on the far right. I remember what he looked like back when he was Prime Minister of President Giscard d'Estaing. That's him.

Very nice tribute. The following article is good also:
[Link: www.townhall.com...]

#30 Robert Crawford

o France's PM is an old buddy of Saddam's, going back nearly thirty years. Helped build Saddam's nuke program, in fact.

France's President Chirac is an old buddy of Saddam's. France's PM, Raffarin, is irrelevant.

Austin wrote:

Hmm I smell a Troll... Go back to your cave TP

Troll yes, but not TP. That's the Harley-thing using its AOL account.

Am I crazy, or does Chirac look a little like Dr. Strangelove in this picture?

No, I must be crazy.

Bad translation but you get the idea

Well far from seizing l’immensity of the risk qu’il made run to planet, l’actuel French president agreed to negotiate the equipment of l’Irak in technology, know-how and fuel French. These negotiations will reach their apogee at the time of the voyage of Saddam Hussein in France, when, September 6, 1975, Chirac accompanies the Iraqi dictator with Caradache, where it presents various engines of research to him. November 18 of the same year, France signs with Hussein a contract envisaging the delivery with l’Irak d’un engine of the type "graphite-gas", d’une power of 1500 MW thermal. It s’agit already d’un act of insanity, since the engine that Chirac s’engage required to l’egorgor of Baghdad is a true plutonium factory. C’est d’ailleurs on this kind of technology that Of Gaulle built the French nuclear capacity.

#21; let's actually look at the facts alleged in the piece you cite.

a post-Saddam plan for a military government in Baghdad with Americans appointed to head Iraqi ministries, and American soldiers to patrol the streets of Iraqi cities.

Yes, we already knew that. *Initially*, there will be an American military governor, probably one named Tommy Franks. Did you really think Iraq would be ready for instant democracy the day after Saddam falls?

further envisages the appointment by the U.S. of an unknown number of Iraqi quislings palatable to the Arab countries of the Gulf and Saudi Arabia as a council of advisers to this military government

Sorry, "quislings"??? Iraqis who oppose Saddam are "quislings" now?

I should certainly hope that Gen. Franks will have Iraqi advisers. And to some degree or another, since we've been more or less playing nice with the Saudis and Gulf emirates, sure, one could say they'll have to be "palatable" to them--whatever that means. Nothing in what has been presented here, even if true, indicates that medium- to long-term plans for democracy in Iraq have been scrapped.

As for the Iraqi Kurds being handed over to be "crushed" by Turkey--sorry, do you really imagine the scenario where, after the US/UK have protected the Kurds for over a decade, we'll simply let the Turks have their way with them? Do you really imagine this would be acceptable to voters in those two countries? Even if you think Bush and Blair are entirely unprincipled, you would also have to believe that they are both politically inept, in order to swallow this belief.

#35, he does have a Peter Sellers thing going on there. . .

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Colonel, Colonel, I must know what you think has been going on here.

Col. "Bat" Guano: You wanna know what I think?

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Yes.

Col. "Bat" Guano: I think you're some kind of deviated prevert. I think general Ripper found out about your prevertion, and you were organizing some kind of mutiny of preverts.

Useless Movie Quotes

#20 Glen

Right. The missile boats and Mirages. I had forgotten. Still, the 1967 war pretty much made the break permanent.

#21

There is no doubt that the Kurds are going to get screwed (again). The Turks are already saying that they will intervene on the behalf of the Turkoman minority in Kirkuk if the Kurds try to take it over. If this thing is going to be successful (however you define that) the Turks are going to have to be placated or bought off somehow, or the Kurds are going to get it in the ass again. No matter what happens, Iraq will go the way of Yugoslavia.

I dunno about a US imposed regime. That's going to be tricky as hell. Still, I think this backs up what I've been saying all along: toppling the mullah-ocracy in Iran and, perhaps, doing something about the Syrians, is the final objective. The real nuclear threat is in Persia. You need troops in Iraq to do that. Democracy in Iraq comes second.

And, no, I don't give a rat's ass if that means we have to invade Syria or Iran. The Syrians and the Persians, along with the Saudis, are the three regimes most responsible for the spread of Islamo-fascist terrorism. Any war on terror will need to take them out somehow.

#29 Jon

So the Israelis got their nuke technology from the French. So what? Are you equating Israel and Iraq? If you are, stop wasting my time.

Israel, Good. Iraq, Bad. Full stop.

Continuing on the "Dr. Strangelove" riff:

Iraqi scientist: "... TWENTY Mirage F-1 fighter jets, TWELVE kilograms of enriched uranium... shoot, a feller could have himself a helluva weekend in Vegas with this stuff..."

Okay the French do have a few brownie points on their record - the TGV's & Charles Martel for example but most of their history consists of shooting themselves in the foot - ceding New France to the English and keeping Martinique - duh; selling off Louisianna - double duh. Putting the table of contents at the back of a book - quadruple duh and then slavishly adhering to the Cartesian - je pense donc je suis. How idiotic can you get? Surely je suis donc je pense would be a better philosophy for life in the real world. Action follows being not the other way around. If Isaac Newton had been a Frenchman he would have dreamed up a new recipe for compote de pommes (applesauce) when that apple fell from the tree instead of giving the world Newtonian physics. Pity these poor losers masquerading as the products of a great civilization. They just don't get it and never will.

France's President Chirac is an old buddy of Saddam's. France's PM, Raffarin, is irrelevant.

I stand corrected.

I don't know why this just hit me know, but I figured I'd mention it - just to pile on the French ...

The Sphinx in Egypt ... the noseless wonder (I've actually seen it in person). Wasn't it French soldiers who shot the nose off?

W.

Sorry, "quislings"??? Iraqis who oppose Saddam are "quislings" now?

No, no, no. Iraqis who cooperate with Bush are "quislings".

Bush is Hitler, remember?

The Sphinx in Egypt ... the noseless wonder (I've actually seen it in person). Wasn't it French soldiers who shot the nose off?

The legends vary. Some blame the French, some blame the Arabs, and some blame the Christians.

Hell, it could have been the pagan Romans; "defacing" a statue that way has a LONG history.

The pic isn't really that shocking, back then Saddam was on "our side" agains the more evil Iran. Funny thing is, we didn't realize he was actually worse. D'OH!

The pic isn't really that shocking, back then Saddam was on "our side" agains the more evil Iran. Funny thing is, we didn't realize he was actually worse. D'OH!

Um, in 1975, the Shah was in charge in Iran. Neither of them were particular worries.

This was bound to happen sooner or later:

axisofweasels.com
 

#41 Yes the french claim him but Karl der Hammer was really a German. As a result of the first and most successful German invasion of france. Unfortunately thats when the french corruption of the German's began.

One other Dr Stangelove line it bears recalling in this difficult days.... "Uh Sug, don't forget to say your prayers."

WOW! BUSTED!!!

OT slightly: Turkey is playing entirely too loosey-goosey for my taste; why should they have ANY say about the Kurds after all the push-me-pull-you they've been playing at. I say, the hell with them. Tell them to cooperate or they're next and hands off plans for Iraq. After all the Kurds have been through they should be able to rule their area as a separate province, at least, without Baghdad having more than a token say in what they do and Turkey should stay the heck out of it. After all, that Muslim government may not survive more than one term anyway so why should they be allowed to throw a spanner in the works?

#50

I wouldn't worry too much about the Turks. If they don't cooperate we'll just let the Kurds create Kurdistan and cause even more headaches for the Turks. The Turks have to cooperate with us to secure their Eastern flank. And the Turkish Army and business leaders aren't going to care a whole lot about a Muslim government. If it (the government) becomes too extreme it will just disappear.

And the thought they might hold out so they get invited to join the EU is now dead. They don't want to be france's puppet.

"with all due respect General, your security forces, we'll just brush them aside."

Its a case of Strangelove.

Per den Beste links, the Turks are holding out for more $$ than the billions we've already promised them.

OT, but the J-Post has just reported that the UN gave Iraq 48 hours notice before the U-2 spy planes took off to support the weapons inspectors.

This even beats the actions of the French and Germans, in my book. What else can they do to make sure nothing is found? Doesn't this justify the efforts to disband this useless group of cretins and expel these bloated morons from the US?

Well, the only problem is that Turkey is a member of NATO, and their biggest fear is Kurdish irredentism within Turkey. As much as I hope the Kurds get their way (snerk), this thing will not work unless the Turks are on board. There is no way that the US will alienate Turkey for the sake of the Kurds.

The point here is not independence for the Kurds, as nice as that would be. The point is to get rid of Islamo-fascist terrorism. That means 1) getting rid of Saddam, 2) overthrowing Syria and Iran, and 3) destroying Iran's nuke program. If Kurdish aspirations for a Greater Kurdistan have to sacrificed to achieve that, I am sure they will be.

Today, PM Blair sent a letter to wouldbe EU nations in Eastern Europe, apologising that the EU had not extended them the courtesy of inviting them to the EU summit in Greece.

I think we are seeing the beginnings of a deep divide in the EU. The Eastern Europeans are already pretty pissed with Chirac. And now this letter from Blair.

Chirac may think he is riding high while there are questions about PM Blair's survival but once the dust has settled in Iraq, there is going to be a reckoning in Europe.

They gave them TWO DAYS NOTICE?

There are no words.

Debka has reproted that Saddam shipped his WMD stuff to Syria anyway. Saddam has had a decade to hide his stuff. There's no way the UN will find anything, no matter how many inspectors they send.

Here is a link to the UN tipoff mentioned by David in post 54

The theater of the absurd just made a curtain call.

An interesting article that France and Germany are starting a new cold war.

[Link: qsi.cc...]

I really hope that this never happens.

Chirac-Saddam connection leaves a large question unanswered.

It is well established that some USA ambassadors to Saudi Arabia have gone on the Saudi payroll at handsome $$$$ after they left office.

This pix was taken when Chirac was PM and he later lost power.

Might Chirac have more than just a France uber alles incentive to save Saddam?

OT but, drudge lnks to an FT article, 5000 Iranians have entered northern Iraq.

[Link: news.ft.com...]

Can you say unilateral?

The bidet-that's French, isn't it?I'll give them some credit for that. I admit to using one while vacationing in Italy and,er,enjoying it. Really,what's the point of scraping away at it with your hand?

Other than that, what else French is worthwhile? Cheese?
Consistencies of stuff I sneeze
Inhale and wheeze
which way the Bries.

Osirac was Ilan Ramon's first combat mission.

#59

The Frogs and the Krauts in a Cold War with the US and Britain and everybody else on the other side?

HA-ha-ha-hahahahahahaha......!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of OT but since Solomon X, #38 has introduced Lionel Mandrake, perhaps along similar humorous lines readers will enjoy (and forgive me if others have referenced this already elsewhere; LGF has gotten so big I can only read bits and pieces now) from the incomparable Mark Steyn:

"Saddam Hits Back"

Saddam Hussein yesterday lashed out at the British interviewer he said had left him "distraught and humiliated". The 65-year-old veteran dictator and novelist accused Tony Benn of abusing his trust and announced that he had lodged a formal complaint with the Independent Television Commission and was considering legal action.

"I let Tony come into my life, into my heart, and this is how he betrays me," added a bitter Saddam, speaking from Baghdad. "I welcomed him into my family. I let him hold the hand of my son-in-law. Then I made him put it back on the mantelpiece."

Fighting back tears, the psychotic statesman revealed how the wily Benn had lulled him into a false sense of security. "He led me to believe he was a credible interviewer who'd ask me tough questions. He said it was a chance to let the world see the real me, a man at ease with vigorous debate and on top of the facts.

"Instead, he just lobbed me puffballs about whether I've any message of global peace I'd like to share with the millions of Britons who admire all I've done for the Iraqi people and hope I'll soon have the chance to do for them. By the third question, the interpreter had stopped translating and just said, 'He's giving you the full Monica again.' I said, 'From the way he keeps leaning forward, I'm worried you mean literally'."

As they say, read the whole thing! ;-)

Jamie Irons

In 1975, the French sold Iraq a ton of stuff. So did the United States. Circa the same time this thread's picture was taken, another fine photo was taken of Don Rumsfeld enthusiastically shaking hands with Saddam.

The picture means absolutely squat.

Chirac's present day behavior is the problem, not what he or Rumsfeld did 27 years ago.

#66: I'm not sure that a handshake, on the one hand, and a nuclear reactor capable of producing fissile material, on the other, fall into quite the same category.

The closest thing to weaponry the US ever sold the Saddam regime was about two dozen unarmed helicopters. The French and Germans enthusiastically sold him nuclear weapons technology. We're pretty "clean" on this one.

#64 LOL
I could almost swear I've read something like this before:
" By the third question, the interpreter had stopped translating and just said, 'He's giving you the full Monica again.' I said, 'From the way he keeps leaning forward, I'm worried you mean literally'."

Saddam bit his lip as he continued. "I feel such a fool. He's made me a laughing stock. He's destroyed my credibility." "

Semi-OT:

The New Francophobia

To the Editor:

Re "As Cold War Link Itself Grows Cold, Europe Seems to Lose Value for Bush" (news analysis, Feb. 12):

It seems that Francophobia is now the lingua franca among American superpatriots.

Are we to expect that because the United States reluctantly intervened in a European war six decades ago, and in the process helped liberate France, that France must now blindly obey for the next four zillion years whatever a warmongering American elite decides is just?

Perhaps we are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

It was France that helped America achieve independence from a tyrannical Britain more than 200 years ago. Should the United States therefore be obligated to pledge its blind allegiance to French foreign policy forever after?
PHILLIP CORWIN
New York, Feb. 12, 2003
The writer is a former United Nations diplomat.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Has anyone seen any organized effort to boycott French imports - wine etc.?

"In 1975, the French sold Iraq a ton of stuff. So did the United States. Circa the same time this thread's picture was taken, another fine photo was taken of Don Rumsfeld enthusiastically shaking hands with Saddam."

True, but that holds somewhat less currency at the moment, as Rumsfeld now, further down Mr. Hussein's career path is an enthusiastic advocate of killing Mr. Hussein dead - Chirac, erm, is not... And the frigging setting is hilarious...

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

#69 there's this boycott France

Re James' #68:

The writer is a former United Nations diplomat.

There you have it.

And this boycott and this more boycott

Just google it :)

Well Frawnce's head traitor signed Resolution 1441 with no intent to uphold its enforcement. I wonder if that is not grounds to kick Frawnce off the Security Council...

Slightly off topic ;-)
I learned of this blog a few months ago. During that time I got deployed to CENTAF HQ for OEF. I think I am a corrupting influence. Half the staff at CENTAF/A7 is now reading LGF, I'm kinda proud of myself :-)
Slightly on topic, did anyone see FoxNews rip into chirac tonight?

I believe the quote was "Chirac, you're full of crepe"

Maccabee- my comments about Turkey were looking at the arguments we can use with them as to why they should support us. They have issues greater than money.

#61 grendel "5000 Iranians have entered northern Iraq"

I am suspicious of the mad mullahs of Iran. The shiite holy cities are located in Iraq -- Karbala, etc. The founders/heros of Shiism were killed there in wars with the Sunnis. And despite Iraq being presently ruled by a Sunni Baathist thug, the population of Iraq is predominantly Shiite like Iran.
The Iranians may have some territorial ambitions in Iraq.
One confusing thing: I think that the Shiites are in southern Iraq; the oil is in northern Iraq.

Need to keep the mad mullahs of Iran and their proxies out of this war; they have their own interests.

#78 - not quite. When the borders of Iraq were established by the British and French, at the time, the only known oil was in Kurdistan. That was before the discovery of oil in the Gulf region - the fields there are MUCH larger than the ones in Kurdistan. I haven't seen the map, but it does seem likely that the gulf/oil region would be within the Shi'ite region.

#68 James Are we to expect that because the United States...helped liberate France, that France must now blindly obey for the next four zillion years whatever a warmongering American elite decides is just?

Yep.

#68 - well, to answer the letter to the NYTimes, I guess it comes down to a matter of degrees: Colonial Americans did most of the work but accepted badly needed French help to achieve their independence, while pre-Vichy France laid down arms (with nary a shot fired) to the Germans and waited for other countries, notably America and the U.K., to save their asses. When they're ready to win a fight in their own country against anyone other than themselves, we'll consider them grown up enough to speak for themselves..

"while pre-Vichy France laid down arms (with nary a shot fired) to the Germans"

German casualties were 27,000 dead, 100,000 wounded. French military casualties about 100,000 dead, 200,000 wounded. Pretty intenese fighting, considering it took place during a timeframe of mere weeks. I disagree strongly with the current french government, but this is no reason for going around spreading this kind of crap. When France signed the armistice, it was decisively beaten militarily - it wasn't cowardice, but inadequate preparation (Much like the brittish, not to mention the US...) and major strategical mistakes that contributed to the defeat, apart from German strength and innovation. That a significant part of the army committed mutiny rather than follow the lawful government into the armistice is also rather telling. In the previous war, the French stopped a superior German army cold, and held out until victory despite horrifying losses - hardly the characteristic of an easily cowed people. Furthermore, France was one of the countries, that together with Britain, actually took the risk of standing up to Hitler, realizing the threat he presented. The US didn't. All this doesn't make the right on Iraq, however.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

"Sorry, "quislings"??? Iraqis who oppose Saddam are "quislings" now?"

I'd say that Iraqis who are around to reassure the Saudi government are quislings. The Saudis do not want Democracy in Iraq, and what the piece could describe is Iraqis who would be the pick the Saudi government.

I would totally disregard the opinion of the Saudi kingdom right now, they can be worth a crap when it comes to what we do when they stop proving to be a HQ of terrorism. Fuck the Saudis.

The best solution for Iraq would be a government based on the US Constitution with two houses of representives and a good shot of the three groups not overwhelming each other when it comes to power.

There is a cynical voice that says the Iraqi government would be too preferable to the Saudis, therefore blowing the shot that the Iraqis have. There is a cynical view that the Kurds will be screwed again (and lets face it, Turkey will want to kill quite a few of the Kurds in Iraq).

Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites, the next Iraq government is too much like juggling live grenades, you never know which one will go off first.

#65 Ranbutan: The picture goes a long way toward explaining Chirac's hubris towards both the Israelis and the US. On the surface one might just say he's an 'anti-Semite' but if he was instrumental in Iraq's nuclear development program for as long as this picture would indicate, then his proprietary pride would have taken a huge beating when Ilan Ramon and the other Israelis blew it up.

Also, from the apparently cordial expressions in the photo, this 'friendship' has a duration of some thirty years and these two are, as they say, 'men of the world' n'est pas? whereas Chirac and Bush are like serving truffles and beer.

It goes a long way to explaining the hostility Chirac harbours which, given his outlandish comments this past weekend, verges on the personal. Now, I can see that even if he may agree in his heart of hearts that Saddam is not to be trusted he is more like Saddam than he is like Bush. He may not agree with Saddam but he understands him; he understands nothing about Bush and even has contempt for him.

I read something recently, maybe it was on LGF, about Churchill understanding who Hitler was and where he was coming from but Hitler had no idea who Churchill was. Hitler had contempt for Churchill and Mark Steyn (I just remembered where I read it) said that in fact Hitler called Churchill a 'puppet of Jewry'. Not being intellectually inclined, Hitler did not recognize Churchill's genius. Hitler could only recognize ambition in others, not integrity and intellectual purity since he had none.

Robert KiP:

I say f**k the Saudis too, but I certainly wouldn't put it past our State Department to try and get a "pro-Saudi" (read: another pack of thugs who will give us headaches a few years down the road) government installed in Iraq. State is part of the problem, Powell's fine words to the UN not withstanding. They're pro-Saudi and anti-Israeli and they fear "instability" in the ME -as compared to the oasis of tranquility and quiet it is right now, thanks in part to them - like a preacher fear hell-pains.

I think part of the problem with the Saudis and our policy is the fear that the Saudis are going to try to screw the US over again with Oil.

Remember the claims of a foreign government that knew something about 9/11 but was classified (that every nut then claimed was Israel), I'd bet it was Saudi Arabia.

Remember, women can't drive in Saudi Arabia, the ancient rulers fear democracy and tommorrow's terrorists are in their Saudi's classes right now.

Who would take over Saudi Arabia if both Fahd and Abdullah were to die within days of each other (or at the same time)? Anybody know? Fahd is 80 and Abdullah is 79.

#9 Mike (and others)

Dr. Strangelove immediately sprang to my mind too!!

#65 Ranbutan

Chirac's present day behavior is the problem, not what he or Rumsfeld did 27 years ago.

Except of course that Rumsfeld is no longer engaged in such things and Chirac is. BTW, the picture you mentioned is linked up above Ran.

Re: French and the American Revolution
Not only did we assist in WW II but also WW I. We made a rather sizeable purchace from Napoleon in 1803 so he could keep his war going too. Their nasty little squabble at the time encouraged both countries to disregard our sovereignty. I sorta think France has been paid back in spades.

Check out this story in the Independent about a possible seagoing Iraqi "shell game" with the WMD, and combine this with the reports that the stuff had been sent to Syria for safekeeping, and well, it's rather interesting.

One feeling I have is that Iran won't be invaded, for the simple fact that the citizens could rise up against the Mullahs. Although they'd need encouragement. ;)

Maybe something worthy of the phrase "Kiss and Kill". Kiss the people, Kill their oppressors

Comment 1 - History Lesson - At the time France was working with Iraq (1975), 2 years after the oil embargo...the whole world, including the Arabs..thought oil was starting a sunset period. The USA and the Soviets were falling over themselves to give research reactors to 3rd world backwaters as prestige toys and then sell full-scale commercial electric generation reactors to countries with money. Framatome, the French nuke agency, scrambled to catch up.

Result? The USA gave weapons grade HUE fueled research reactors..similar to the proven Naval reactors to scads of countries...including such unlikely places as the Congo.

The Russians then followed with every country commie or leading commie.

Then the commercial plants were built....US in Belgium, Brazil, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and the US was headed to the ME to build 6 large reactors in one ME country, had foundations laid for two... when the shit hit the fan...the country was Iran.

The Iranians are actually quite good, and the US, Britain, Canada, and Korea have a compliment of Iranian nuclear engineer and scientist exiles. I had an Iranian Project Manager I reported to for two years, and he was Super!

Comment 2 - #86 Entropy seems to believe I should have linked the Chirac photo in my post;

BTW, the picture you mentioned is linked up above Ran

Excuse me, but why exactly should I re-link the picture that starts off the thread, Entropy? Short memory?

Comment 3 - #83 Elizabeth

Not being intellectually inclined, Hitler did not recognize Churchill's genius.

As Americans, we do have a fault of overestimating the intelligence of people overseas we like, and underestimating the intellects of people we dislike. Examples of dimbulbs we liked were Nelson Mandela, Anwar Sadat. Examples of highly intelligent people that out-manuvered us and did us great damage from our underestimation are Castro, Stalin, and certainly the highly intelligent, highly twisted, highly creative, and highly evil Hitler.

Something to keep in mind. Saddam is underestimated. He does a lot of stupid things, but so did Nixon, Reagan, and Clinton....yet those 3 Presidents (and LBJ) were the ones who will dominate the 2nd half of the 20th Century from their historical impact.

# 66 Occassional Reader

"The closest thing to weaponry the US ever sold the Saddam regime was about two dozen unarmed helicopters. The French and Germans enthusiastically sold him nuclear weapons technology. We're pretty "clean" on this one. "

I hear people all the time claim that Saddam is "our" guy, that we "created" him and supplied him. What BS. During the cold war our "guy(s)" were the Shah of Iran and the Saudis. Iraq if anything was the other side's -ie. the Soviet Union's "guy". Duh

z

# 81 GulGnu

"Furthermore, France was one of the countries, that together with Britain, actually took the risk of standing up to Hitler, realizing the threat he presented."

Don't forget Canada, which also declared war on Germany in 1939. Britain and Canada were the only intact allies from the period after France's fall until the Soviet Union was invaded in June 1941.

z

Dammit, about 6 people beat me to the Dr. Strangelove reference.

I wonder if Chirac told everyone in attendance to shut up when he was talking.

"Saddam, shut up! This is not well brought-up behavior!"

# 89 Ranbutan

"Saddam is underestimated."

I agree. The knock against him is that while he is brilliant at internal Iraqi politics he doesn't really understand international geo-politics. His skillful manipulation of the UN for the past 12 years proves otherwise.

z

Ranbutan

Actually I was just being polite in pointing out that it was there. Didn't expect you would feel the need to be such a prick about it. Guess it goes with the rest of your idiocy.

ziphius (#93): Saddam's slippery manipulation was pinned down years ago...

Excuse me, but why exactly should I re-link the picture that starts off the thread, Entropy? Short memory?

Ran, I think you misunderstood, NTropy was just pointing out that the Rumsfeld-Saddam photo that you alluded to (not the Chirac photo) was linked to in comment #4.

Chiiiill. :)

The French have been playing the rest of the world like an orchestra for too long; getting us to dance to their tune. They punch far above their weight and far far above their moral authority in every organisation they are in: the UN, the EU, NATO etc. As the Quebecans do the rest of Canada, so do the French to the rest of the world: blackmail everybody till they get what they want. They blocked trade deals with Mandela's South Africa, they block any reform of the corrupt, loathsome Common Agricultural Policy, which does so much to keep poor countries poor. They treat their colonies as helots, and impose a Paris-orientated ideological thick-headed elite on them [remember Pol Pot?].

Expel Quebec from Canada! Expel France from the EU and NATO! Expel the French from Africa and the Pacific! There will be no advance for the cause of humanity until the French have no more role on the world stage than any other country of 60 millions. I am not anti-French. I am just pro-humanity.

Thisscary item just released from the Independent. Oops-I see Ken Barnes already linked to it-well here it is again.Perhaps Le Amphibiennes will offer these wayward ships safe harbour in Cherbourg ?

#85,Robert Kip Prince Sultan (the last of the Sudari 7) would be next in line after Abdullah. The last surviving brother of the first king was Prince Mohammed al Saud and,before he died about 14 years ago was the head of the family and settled family affairs. Just before he died, the succesion was supposedly worked out to several places and to the next generation. The power was to stay with the Sudari line. Prince Mohammed is noted for the "death of a Princess event" which is a story for another time. If the crown prince becomes king ,(upon the death of fahd) He would be the first half brother to seceed,his mother being a Rasheed.

Prince Sultan bin Abdul Aziz al Saud is currently the Minister of Defence And Aviation.

Ok, so we have the following persons (left to right):

Unknown
Saddam
ROBERT DE NIRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????
Chirac

What the f*ck is RdN doing there? I thought he was busy recording Taxi Driver then? Is that movie a cover-up to conceal his involvement in nuclear proliferation?

[Link: 216.239.53.100...]

Bien loin de saisir l’immensité du risque qu’il faisait courir à la planète, l’actuel président français acceptait de négocier la dotation de l’Irak en technologie, know-how et combustible français. Ces négociations atteindront leur apogée lors du voyage de Saddam Hussein en France, lorsque le 6 septembre 1975, Chirac accompagne le dictateur irakien à Caradache, où il lui présente divers réacteurs de recherche. Le 18 novembre de la même année, la France signe avec Hussein un contrat prévoyant la livraison à l’Irak d’un réacteur de type « graphite-gaz » d’une puissance de 1500 MW thermiques. Il s’agit déjà d’un acte de déraison, puisque le réacteur que Chirac s’engage à fournir à l’égorgeur de Bagdad est une vraie usine à plutonium. C’est d’ailleurs sur ce genre de technologie que De Gaulle a bâti la capacité nucléaire française.

Babblefish:

Well far from seizing l?immensity of the risk qu?il made run to planet, l?actuel French president agreed to negotiate the equipment of l?Irak in technology, know-how and fuel French. These negotiations will reach their apogee at the time of the voyage of Saddam Hussein in France, when on September 6, 1975, Chirac accompanies the Iraqi dictator with Caradache, where it presents various engines of research to him. November 18 of the same year, France signs with Hussein a contract envisaging the delivery with l?Irak d?un engine of the type "graphite-gas" d?une power of 1500 MW thermal. It s?agit already d?un act of insanity, since the engine that Chirac s?engage required to l?egorgor of Baghdad is a true plutonium factory. C?est d?ailleurs on this kind of technology that Of Gaulle built the French nuclear capacity.

"Don't forget Canada, which also declared war on Germany in 1939. Britain and Canada were the only intact allies from the period after France's fall until the Soviet Union was invaded in June 1941."

Sorry for that omission - Canada naturally deserves oodles of credit for that. I just tend to lump them together with the Brits for some reason =P

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

I am one of reaganite's coworkers he corrupted to lgf. Great site!

Last November, in Oman, I met a guy who was working in Bagdad when the Israelis took out Osirak. According to him, the fighters streaked low over the river to the plant, popped up, and loosed their loads. The effect was quite spectacular. He watched the whole thing from the top of the flour mill where he was working at the time. Luckily (or by good planning), the plant wasn't fueled at the time, so there was no radiation hazard.

Re the photo: Don't Hussein and Chirac seem to be passing a meaninful look?

Where did Operation Opera get the photo ? It isn't a photoshop job, is it?

"Saddam and Chirac, sitting in a tree, o-s-i-r-a-c-k" (Ok, there's no "c", but it scans better this way)

# 69

Has anyone seen any organized effort to boycott French imports - wine etc.?

Article today in the personal (D) section of the WSJ about it, and yes, there is one getting under way. Funniest part mentioned was the renaming of French Fries to "Freedom Fries".

#97 Arturo Ziegler

Well said.

Luckily (or by good planning), the plant wasn't fueled at the time, so there was no radiation hazard.

That was planned. Israel deliberately did not delay precisely to avoid large numbers of casualties caused by radiation. As it is only one man, a French technician (or "janitor" as they'd have us believe a Frenchman was working in an Iraqi nuclear reactor cleaning toilets).

Another consideration that caused Israel to act when it did was that PM Menahem Begin was facing re-election and knew that if defeated a Labour Prime Minister would never have the courage to order the bombing. So he did.

The French declared an embargo on Israel on June 2, 1967, 3 days before the outbreak of the Six Days War. This however did not hinder the French from capitalizing on the Israeli success in uilizing the Mirage IIIC jet fighter.

#79 Frank IMC
I stand corrected. Thanks.

with appologies to the original Strangelove script - -

1st Scientist: You say you eventually want a most devasting bomb...

2nd Scientist: Cobalt thorium G has a radioactive halflife of ninety three years. If you take, say, fifty H-bombs in the hundred megaton range and jacket them with cobalt thorium G, when they are exploded they will produce a doomsday shroud. A lethal cloud of radioactivity which will encircle the earth for ninety three years!

Saddam: Ooooh Lover-ly !

Chirac the Manic: My boys will give you the best kind of start, fourteen hundred megatons worth, and you sure as hell won't stop them now. So let's get going. There's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all."

Saddam: Yes indeed. Purity and Essence of our natural fluids - Hee Hee

#97

You sound a little bitter. Couln't master French in school could ya? Or history for that matter...I must say, lumping Quebec in with France is quite the coup.

Get a fucking clue buddy.

As if banishing one culture from the world stage would make it a "better place".

No major power on this planet is innocent of doing horrible things in its own self interest. That is the plain harsh truth. Language/culture has nothing to do with it.

Is France trying to defend its interests in its opposition to war? Of course.

So is America in its attempt to go to battle.

The real issue here is the Bushists complete inability to convince anyone of the necessity of their "war". So far the "proofs" and "arguments" brought forth have been so weak that even a majority of the US opposes this war.

Keep in mind that the rest of the world also realises that Bush was not elected president, nor did he have the majority of the vote when the Supreme court handed him the White House. Surely this ways in as well.

S&M

That's not jaw-dropping, idiots. You suddenly discovered that France sold Iraq a nuclear reactor?

And how does that differ from the US selling him, well, chemical weapons, missiles, etc etc etc etc. I won't mention DoRu.

Woah you guys are on top of things. I can tell you're Republicans (he says unfairly and completely generalizing).

I got suckered into following a link here again.

#113 "And how does that differ from the US selling him, well, chemical weapons, missiles, etc etc etc etc."

Chemical whats?! If you make statement of that weight, please back it up.

We gave plenty to Iran, F14s with phoenix missiles, almost an aircraft carrier, but thats not the point...

this is now, and we are acting (or trying) to rectify that error; France is... well...

#113:

And how does that differ from the US selling him, well, chemical weapons, missiles, etc etc etc etc. I won't mention DoRu.

How it differs, oh blind one, is that while we are ready to clean up the mistake we made by backing Sadam, the French just want to put their fingers in their ears and say 'LA LA LA! we aren't listning to you. we did nothing wrong.' And please don't meantion DoRu, that is something you should discuss with your doctor.

I got suckered into following a link here again.

I got suckered into the goatse.cx link once. ONCE. You don't get 'suckered' into going to a place you clearly can't stand twice.

S&M (#112)

Is France trying to defend its interests in its opposition to war? Of course.

Defend what interests exactly? More like trying to hide a dirty little secret, me thinks. France and Germany are up to no good. Something is Just. Not. Right.

#116 zulubaby

Is France trying to defend its interests in its opposition to war? Of course.

Defend what interests exactly? More like trying to hide a dirty little secret, me thinks. France and Germany are up to no good. Something is Just. Not. Right.

Multiple interests. The first and most obvious one is the politicians bribes from Iraq --partly through the P.A.--, Syria --partly through Lebanon--, Iran, and other Arab countries. Huge private financial interests here.

The second obvious interest is to distract the citizens from the mess France is in: the economy is going down the drain with no hope for improvement before another year or two, the education system is in shambles, the justice is not working, police is unable to do its job, and the security of the people is not ensured, despite (actually, because of) gun control laws getting stricter every day.

The third interest, and the first 'legit' one, is to keep as much control as possible over the European Commission, so that the agriculture subsidies for France stay as high as possible. Sometimes it's worth publicly backing a very stupid position, in order to get a bargaining chip. France has done that for years.

Then we can get into secondary interests: image in the former --well, not really-- colonies, trying to get more influence in the former English and Belgian colonies, keeping the Muslims happy so there won't be a civil war in France before the Army is ready to handle it, and so on.

The dirty little secret is, there is no secret. France sold weapons and technologies to Iraq very openly, and is still doing it. France's pro-Arab policies are public. France's looting of its 'former' colonies has been acknowledged more than once. France's immigration problem is well known. And French politicians are openly corrupt.

#116

Cripes I thought you were talking about the US.

Sure sounds like it!

S&M

It's no accident that the words "arrogance" and "hautiness" have their origins in the French language. Jacques Chirac's recent statements to the eastern European nations, about their having the gall to cross France and take a pro-American stance, take (eat and vomit) the cake, and do so on the world stage. This Chirac tongue lashing has likely helped some marginal supporters of the US confirm their anti-Iraq, pro-US positions, if for no other reason than to oppose the controlling, obnoxious paternalism of France (and Germany). No person or nation wishes to be told what they should or should not do, but it was clearly the yapping poodle-ish Chirac who should not have missed the opportunity to have muzzled himself. It's arguably good that the world has learned from his rabid tirade just how much raw sewage runs through French thinking. Turkey, which will be applying for entrance into the EU in less than two years, has to be feeling EU pressure from the Bigger-than-Life, Who Made It King? France, which may be contributing to its foot dragging in supporting the US. It will be interesting to see how France proceeds from here, as it reacts to the eastern European nations and the US and UK after the war is successfully waged. This will be all the more interesting after, I predict, the US-led coalition uncovers, in Iraq, recently sold French-made weapon parts, French-made laboratory equipment and processed uranium, a freshly baked souffle and numerous Napoleons in Saddam's palace ovens, Saddam's Renault F1, his membership in a French Wine of the Month Club, and learns from Saddam's hard drive that he and Jacques Chirac had a secret sexual liaison many years ago (circa 1975?) and since then have been pining for one another and recently IM-ing each other daily (using the screen names of Jackie and Sodom) with the hope and intention of rendezvousing and retiring together to a small palace in Tahiti in a few years. This is the only explanation that makes any sense in explaining Chirac's and France's present position toward Hussein and Iraq. [The picture at the start of this thread supports this explanation as we see both Saddam Hussein and Jacques Chirac ignoring the scientists while gazing deeply into each other's eyes during their 1975 visit to a French nuclear reactor--which was a birthday gift from Jacques to Saddam.]