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French Shari'a Watch

Sat, Mar 1, 2003 at 2:16:25 am PST

Muslim immigrants from North Africa have brought many of their cultural traditions to the French cites; traditions like misogyny, violence, and rape: Girls Terrorized in France's Macho High-Rise Ghettos.

Imprisoned behind yellowed curtains that hang limply at windows, they stay indoors to avoid the jeers, bullying and the ominous risk of rape that lurks in dingy stairwells where gangs of boys of mostly North African origin hang out.

"It's everywhere, all the time. Beatings, rapes, the lot. The worst is the names they call you, especially if you're dressed in a girly way which makes you a slut," says Amel, 21.

Home to many immigrants from the Maghreb, such suburbs have seen a rise in radical Islam that has turned attitudes toward women even harsher. Pressure is mounting for Muslim women to wear veils and forced marriages that snatch girls from college and a career are now commonplace.

Those that do not conform pay the price.

"The minute you show your face the insults start. You just put your head down and keep walking. The worst thing to do is answer back, because then they get aggressive," says Amel. ...

Vitry-sur-Seine, a Paris suburb that is striving to create a community spirit around its faded, pastel-colored high-rises, made headlines when Sohane Benziane, 17, was set alight in October by an 18-year-old boy whose friends stood nearby.

The teen-ager told police he was angry with Sohane for snubbing his advances when he lured her into a refuse depot, so he doused her with petrol and threatened her with a lighter.

The tragedy, which left Sohane rolling in agony on a patch of grass to try to extinguish the flames before she later died in hospital, was just the worst in a sea of attacks by minors.
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1 Amos  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:20:52am

Welcome to the wonderful world of dhimmitude. This is exactly the way Jews felt bach when they were even allowed to live in Arab countries.

"The minute you show your face the insults start. You just put your head down and keep walking. The worst thing to do is answer back, because then they get aggressive."
Succinctly says it all.

2 mrweasel  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:25:15am

Macho I understand. French I understand.

Macho French - I don't get it.

3 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:33:13am

Bah. Passportless French exaggerating again.

/sarcasm

4 hans ze beeman  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:37:42am

Welcome to the Medieval Ages. I recently overheard a conversation in German between two hardcore Muslims (surprisingly it was in German), stating that women without veil were whores, they deserved punishment etc.

OT:

1.) It seems the band Screeching Weasel has anticipated a lot, calling one of their albums "Thank you very little"...

2.) There has been some talk about the four riders of the ablogalypse recently. I have found some nice lyrics fitting the issue.

Grandfather, tell me a story!
Alright, go and get your storybook.
No, no, not one of those, a real story!
A real story?
Yes, tell me about when you were a boy.
Well, then, I shall have to take you back
with me, a long way in time....

It was my thirtheenth year on a cold winter's
day, as I walked through the enchanted
forest, I heard the sound of horses and men
at arms. I felt compelled to walk and
find the place of these sounds. And when
the forest did clear I was standing on a
hill. Before me the armies of the world,
standing, waiting. I thought to myself, for
whom or for what are they waiting?
Suddenly a gust of wind came up from the
north. There appeared a lone rider, holding
a sword of steel. Then from the south came
another, bearing a battle ax. From the east
came a third, holding a spiked club. And
finally, from the west, a rider who wielded
a great hammer of war. With them came
their soldiers of death, followed by an
army of immortals. They were few in number,
but the look in their eyes told all who
beheld them that they would leave this day
only in victory or death. And there was a
great silence....

My heart began to pound, storm clouds
filled the sky with darkness. Rain came, and
the four winds blew with such anger that I
held fast to a tree. I watched the four
riders raise their weopons into the air,
without warning, screaming their war cry
they led the attack. Down to the battle they
rode. They met the armies of the world with
a mighty clash! I could feel the ground
shake, the earth drank much blood that
day! Each of the four, was unto himself, a
whirlwind of DOOM.

When the smoke did clear, may thousands
were dead. There was much blood and gore.
Their bodies lay broken and scattered
across the battlefield, like brown leaves
blown by the wind. And I saw the four ride
together to the top of the hill, while below
them the soldiers of death assembled. All
those who would now swear allegiance
to them.

And the four spoke the words of the
warriors prayer:

GODS OF WAR I CALL YOU. mY SWORD
IS BY MY SIDE.
I SEEK A LIFE OF HONOR, FREE FROM
ALL FALSE PRIDE.
I WILL CRACK THE WHIP WITH A BOLD
MIGHTY HAIL.
COVER ME WITH DEATH IF I SHOULD
EVER FAIL.
GLORY, MAJESTY, UNITY
HAIL, HAIL, HAIL

And as I stood and looked on, I heard the
armies of the world hail them without
end, and their voices of victory carried
long and far throughout the land!

Well that's it. Did you like the story?
Yeah, it was great!
Oh good, I'm glad. Now off to bed with you.
Grandfather?
Yes?
Who were those four men?
Who were they? THEY WERE THE METAL
KINGS!

5 john  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:42:38am

hans,

you moved me

6 Liberty Belle  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:53:58am

For MrWeasel. D'accord. But these ignorant morons aren't French.

7 hans ze beeman  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:58:59am

#4 OT, supplement: the lyrics are from "The Warrior's Prayer", from the album "Kings of Metal" (AND THAT THEY ARE) by Manowar. A US band largely ridiculed in the US - BEFORE 9-11. In Germany, they are quite popular, I recently saw them in concert in Cologne - I only say this:

WIMPS AND POSERS - LEAVE THE HALL

8 db  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 1:05:25am

Too bad Ms Sohane did not have Mr Smith and Mr Wesson as her bodyguards.

9 db  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 1:10:55am

Say,

How far does the riht to self defense go in France anyway?

If your average Joe (or Jane) is jumped by muggers/rapists/murdurers, are they allowed to fight back, or would they be prosecuted for instigating some form of violence?

10 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 1:14:51am

#9 db

If your average Joe (or Jane) is jumped by muggers/rapists/murdurers, are they allowed to fight back, or would they be prosecuted for instigating some form of violence?

Depends... They are allowed to fight back, but only using the same weapons. And they are not allowed to do any real damage.

One exception: if one has a black belt (or equivalent) in a number of martial arts (list defined by the gov't) then one is allowed to defend oneself when faced by less than three opponents.

11 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 1:15:45am

#9 db

Read: not allowed to defend oneself.

12 Stephen Rittenberg  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 1:49:08am

Could things be any clearer? The barbarians are inside the gates and are at war with the rest of us. The French are still the appeasers Churchill spoke of when he said appeasers "feed the tiger in hopes it will eat them last".
[Link: www.doctor-horsefeathers.com...]

13 john  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:06:23am

As obnoxious as these asshole's behavior might be, I think there's an even bigger picture in play here.

This is an entire group of teenage men who loath the teenage women around them.

Huh?

Culteral genicide? I call it cultural suicide.

There may be no clearer proof that Islam is a nihilistic cul-de-sac?

14 db  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:08:07am

Caton,

THAT is f'd up!

You got the element of surprise in favor of the attacker, give the defender some home turf advantage.
But, if the defender is a 'black belt', (s)he's expected to roll up into the fetal position and get kicked to death vs. getting the big house for going on the offensive and/or successfully defending themselves?


Personally, I think the human race would be much better off if the females of the species, worldwide, were given .44 revolvers, a couple of hundred rounds for practice on the range, and a box for 'personnel' use, and let 'em loose with 'em.

15 Flint  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:14:52am

Same stories here in Belgium, for years now. Cyties like Brussels, Antwerp, Charleroi, Liège and Ghent are facing the same problems: young Arabs behaving barbarian. Worst thing is: there's hardly any reaction coming out of the camps of the parents or the Imams! Only lame answers saying it's allways the mistake of the gouvernment, the Flemish who are racist, the Walons who are racist, neither wanting to give them a job...blahblah, nothing constructive though. Why is it that we don't have any problems with Chinese, Vietnamese, Italian, Greek, Spanish, Pakistani or Indian and other immigrants? Ever wondered about that? I often wonder when the time will come that Arab culture (or Islam...) will be able to fit in in our Western society ... .


Just saw a Simpsons-episode "Behind the laughter", in which Moe says "Oh yeah Homer he was spending money like a ... teenage Arab." Does anyone else have the same feelings?

16 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:16:47am

#14 db

You got the element of surprise in favor of the attacker, give the defender some home turf advantage.
But, if the defender is a 'black belt', (s)he's expected to roll up into the fetal position and get kicked to death vs. getting the big house for going on the offensive and/or successfully defending themselves?

Ah, no, you are allowed to run away.

Personally, I think the human race would be much better off if the females of the species, worldwide, were given .44 revolvers, a couple of hundred rounds for practice on the range, and a box for 'personnel' use, and let 'em loose with 'em.

That's one reason I fully support the Israeli compulsory military for women. It has reduced the number of rapes drastically. However, I don't know about you, but my wife is... ah... not always rational, and is very aggressive for a few days every month. So I'm not sure about the 'let 'em loose' part?

17 nyc  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:24:27am

Welcome to the wonderful world of dhimmitude. This is exactly the way Jews felt bach when they were even allowed to live in Arab countries

No. No. No. You've got it all wrong. Jews and Arabs lived together in peace and harmony for millenia until the Zionists came along, started stealing Arab land, humiliating, oppressing...

18 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:30:30am

#17 nyc

No. No. No. You've got it all wrong. Jews and Arabs lived together in peace and harmony for millenia until the Zionists came along, started stealing Arab land, humiliating, oppressing...

You know what's wrong in this rant?

Nothing about free-masons. Arabs keep forgetting 'em.

19 db  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:47:22am

Caton,

My wife is, maybe, just a little TOO rational all the time.

But, then again, I taught her how to kill any mammel that walks the earth, made her AWARE that she can, gave her the tools to do it, and,if she chooses or needs to, it is her choice.
[And maybe she is keeping score...]

Far as 'let 'em loose' - my bigoted opinion is that the greatest gift to MANkind was the washing machine (far as I have seen, washing clothes consumes the greatest part of a womans time in the third world).
The washing machine, it lets women use more of their time towards greater pursuits, like the first generation of women being able to work an odd job putting all the kids through college, the kids put more back into the culture, and it happens again and again. That is a serious investment most of the Islamic countries yet to figure out - but I am sure their women KNOW that potential exists.
If these ladies have a means to prevent their oppression, like their very own .44, and do what they want (even if it is to just take care of the family), everyone will be better off.

A little simple, but guns in the hands of women will build roads, castles, and riches for all.

20 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:10:06am

#19 db

My wife is, maybe, just a little TOO rational all the time.

There's the difference. Mine is too rational, most of the time.

21 Amos  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:36:02am

nyc,

if you truly believe that, and think you're better than the common troll, let's discuss the matter.
For starters, whan was the first massacre of muslim arabs against jews?

22 Seymour Paine  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:40:53am

Look at France, at Belgium, at Norway; look at Europe and if we don't do anything about it, we are looking at the U.S. in twenty or thirty years. The only solution is to completely halt immigration of all sorts from Arab and Moslem countries and work on ways to rid ourselves of those who are already here. Just to note: If there were no Arabs in the U.S. there wouldn't have been 9/11.

23 nikolakis  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:41:00am

#7
yeah, ManowaR rule! Excellent stuff , warriors of the world unite, and the Fight For Freedom-sounds like a 9/11 tribute- in your face Steve Earle.

The fight for Freedom

There's A Sound It's Heard Across The Land
It's Heard Across The Sea
You'll Only Hear It If You Listen With Your Heart
And One Day Hope To Be Free

To Hear The Sound Of Freedom Many Gave Their Lives
They Fought For You And Me
Those Memories Will Always Live Inside Us
Now It's Our Time To Be Free

Where The Eagles Fly I Will Soon Be There
If You Want To Come Along With Me My Friend
Say The Words And You'll Be Free
From The Mountains To The Sea
We'll Fight For Freedom Again

So Ring Out Loud For All The World To Hear
From Sea To Shining Sea
Let Freedom Ring And Every Man Be King
To Live As One Through The Years

Where The Eagles Fly I Will Soon Be There
If You Want To Come Along With Me My Friend
Say The Words And You'll Be Free
From The Mountains To The Sea
We'll Fight For Freedom Again

Now's The Time We All Must Stand Together
So Raise Your Hands Show Them We Are Strong
Side By Side The Fight Goes On Forever
Marching To The Battle With This Song

Where The Eagles Fly I Will Soon Be There
If You Want To Come Along With Me My Friend
Say The Words And You'll Be Free
From The Mountains To The Sea
We'll Fight For Freedom Again

24 Shaikh Yerbouti (formely abu babu)  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:45:59am

This is from Bernard Lewis: What Went Wrong?

He's discussing Muslim attitudes toward the west in the 17th and 18th centuries:"Muslim visitors to Europe speak with astonishment, often with horror, of the immodesty and frowardness of Western women, of the incredible freedom and absurd deference accorded to them, and of the lack of manly jealousy of European males confronted with the immorality and promiscuity in which there women indulge."

"The status of women [is] probably the most profound single difference between the two civilizations...the emancipation of women - specifically, allowing them to reveal their faces, their arms, and their legs, and to mingle socially in the school or in the workplace with men - is an incitement to immorality and promiscuity, and a deadly blow to the very heart of Islamic society, the Muslim family and home. The battle continues...

"The emancipation of women is Westernization; both for traditional conservatives and radical fundamentalists it is neither necessary nor useful but noxious, a betrayal of true Islamic values. It must be kept from entering the body of Islam, and where it has already entered, it must be ruthlessly excised."

Some have claimed that this is the most fundamental difference between Western and Islamic culture, and the ultimate source of Muslim hatred of the United States, which represents above all else freedom and equality of women.

25 Shifra  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:04:45am

Uh Caton, you said

I fully agree with the rest of your argument. I still wouldn't want my wife to have to work -- it.

I assume you don't or won't, have children as they are a huge amount of work for the parent staying home. My husband thinks the office is the easy job. (grin)

26 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:07:24am

#25 Shifra

I assume you don't or won't, have children as they are a huge amount of work for the parent staying home. My husband thinks the office is the easy job. (grin)

...and he's both right and wrong. None of us is staying home, we're both working -- her choice. Taking care of the kids is both a lot of work, and a lot of pleasure, for both of us.

27 Keelie  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:15:36am

#14 - DB - This black belt wouldn't roll over and curl up, even in Canada (the North American equivalent of France).

Do what has to be done to defend yourself and others, then face whatever music has to be faced.

28 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:20:31am

#27 Keelie

Do what has to be done to defend yourself and others, then face whatever music has to be faced.

Better yet -- don't leave any witness.

29 Big Dan  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:24:59am

I guess that even Muslim Arabs between the ages of 17 and 40 recognize the dangers from male Muslem Arabs between 17 and 40 years of age.

How much more proof is needed?

30 Geepers  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:36:27am

Caton says about French law:

Ah, no, you are allowed to run away.


That sounds just right for the French.

31 Marc  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:48:52am

The Netherlands also suffers from these gangs of Moslem youth. Not only do they harrass women, they disrupt cultural festivals, harrass churchgoers, and people who frequent swimming pools. There have been a number of swimming pools that have been closed over the past few years. Dutch authorities would rather appease the Moslems than deal with them.

32 Nikolakis  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:56:02am

amazing quotes:

More distressing are the sporadic beatings by youth gangs who stoop low enough to pick on the old and infirm. Hoodlums looking for fun also steal thousands of cars each year, take them for a white-knuckle joy ride then set them ablaze.

As those with jobs move away, resentment grows and men left behind increasingly vent their frustrations on the opposite sex

wow, i am speechless. The seething muslim street is at it again. What a bunch of thugs!

My sister was burned because she was rebellious. She broke the rule of the cite which is to be submissive

but i thought islam is a religion of tolerance. Who would have thought french cities would turn into islamic colonies!
Who are we to criticise those poor immigrants? We should not force our ideals on them. Such western arrogance!

33 Clutch  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 5:11:30am

What will it take for the rest of the world to understand that it is being invaded by a uniformless army of barbarians in the guise of Arabs / Muslims? Wake up people, the invaders are INSIDE the gates and they are a malignant cancer, eating away at all that you hold dear. Moratorium on all new immigration from the Middle East and predominantly Muslim countries (hell, I'd like a complete BAN on them even being allowed to visit / attend school without a complete background investigation that THEY finance and tight rules on when they have to leave, but we are wusses when it comes to being that strong). No more Muslim "religious" recruitment in the prisons.

I'm finding more and more reasons every day to think that this "Allah" fellow that these cretins worship is actually ol' Satan hisself. Death over life, war over peace, hate over love, intolerance over freedom, what more proof do you need? Islam is the Devil's creation and to worship "Allah" is to worship Satan. (ooh, I'm gonna get SUCH a fatwa on my head!!! Well, come on, let's get it on...)

34 mvfreeman  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 5:12:05am

more proof that some muslims have no desire to assimilate. the old saying "when in rome do as the romans" has no meaning to them at all. their disgusting actions are perfectly acceptable to them. the ridiculous thing is that when someone suggests that they follow at least some cultural norm of their host country they scream religious intolerance at the top of their lungs. i'm not going to bash anyones religious beliefs. you believe what you believe. just don't bullshit me and call it peaceful and tolerant.

35 Marc  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 5:25:58am

Clutch #33:

I came to the same conclusion a few months ago. That wasn't the angel Gabriel that was whispering into Mohammed's ear.

36 Keelie  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 5:27:55am

The problem is not simply the religion; the problem is that the religion is freely used to justify blood worship, tribalism, etc.

You can take religion out of tribalism but you can't take tribalism out of religion. (Does that make sense?)

37 Dean  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 5:56:53am

Clutch #33:

"I'd like a complete BAN on them even being allowed to visit"

That could possibly work for the US, but it's impossible for Europe. European women are not having enough babies to replace their current population or care for their aging Boomers. And other than Arabs, who wants to immigrate to Europe?

If you are looking to immigrate to the Promised Land, you go to the States. Europe must take the Arabs because it needs the warm bodies and 'beggars can't be choosers.'

38 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 6:05:01am

#37 Dean

European women are not having enough babies to replace their current population or care for their aging Boomers. And other than Arabs, who wants to immigrate to Europe?

Lots of people currently living in Ukrayne, Moldova, Russia, ... But they won't immigrate illegaly, and there is no immigration allowed in Europe.

However, there's a lot of illegal Chinese immigration.

39 Buckeye Abroad  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 6:32:39am

Caton,

I was sorry to hear the news about what happened with your local synagoue, but I have a quick question for you;

was the burning of your synagoue reported in the media?

Hans,
I was waiting in line at the Frankfurt HBH and overheard 2 persons talking (in German, though the were not) about the glories of OBL and how evil Amreica is. "Stern" and "Spiegel" seem to be peddling the same tripe-- there has always been latent anti-americanism here, but its coming out of the woodwork from people I never would have expected. Surprised indeed. Needless to say, I have put the paperwork in for the Waffenshein (gun permit), but doubt that they will grant me one.

40 heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 6:33:56am

I don't see this problem happening in the US. Too many of us here already have guns (including Les Femmes), and once open season on Muslims was declared, would be thrilled and delighted to have the opportunity to try our luck.

I've often thought I'd make a very bad target for a stalker. I'd warn 'em once to stay the hell away from me, and then go after 'em with a flame thrower if I saw them lurking/stalking again. I don't understand why more stalker-victims don't do that. The terminology would be "self defense".

And like Caton says, in France you just need to defend yourself and walk away. The Mexicans do it all the time here in LA - it's called "hit & run driving".

OT: Article in today's LA Times about Al Queda's stepped up recruiting efforts, with many many quotes about "French intelligence says". Are we rehabilitating the French back to being allies? If "French intelligence" knows so much about Muslims outside of France, then why are they allowing this bullshit to go on *inside* France? And finally, is "French" and "intelligence" an oxymoron?

41 Spencer  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 6:38:37am

Dean #37

I disagree with your argument that no one other than Arabs or other Muslims would immigrate to Europe. It's the multicuti's that push this argument. Even if these countries populations shrank, I would rather see a France or Italy with 30 million people than with muslim majorities.
Moreover, I believe millions of Latin Americans, Eastern Europeans or Non Muslim Asian, or Africa would love to immigrate to Europe, it might not be as attractive a destination as America, but it's still a lot better than most places. Not only would Europe's population growth be ensured but non-Muslim immigrants would assimilate more quickly. Spain has just implemented a policy to attract qualified immigrants from South America, particularly Argentina. Other European countries should follow suit.

42 andrea  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 6:58:12am

Islam is the crabgrass in the lawn of life.

43 Alexi  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:14:31am

Funny, I read about this in Jane Magazine about a year ago, although I don't think North Africa or Islam was mentioned.

44 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:16:13am

#39 Buckeye Abroad

was the burning of your synagoue reported in the media?

Yes.

45 Ranbutan  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:17:47am

#37 -

I echo Spencer and Caton...lots of more suitable people exist than Muslims.

Add in Hindi Indians that are hard working and do assimilate. Add in the Arab Christians and Chaldeans that also do well, are a plus as immigrants, and do assimilate (most "Arab" success stories in the USA, for example are the Christians that fled the Muslims. Oddly, they have not spoken out against their fellow Arabs ..the Muslim oppressors they fled from).

Ideally, the Europeans should replace themselves...not imagine that they can count on masses of aliens to come and compensate for a too low birthrate without risking the civilization it has taken Euros 200 generations to create.

Right now they face a future of Sharia, and becoming a minority in their own birthlands from demographic decline. I think they will wake up to the menace...but slowly...just as the current situation developed slowly. When their backs are up against the wall, I think the Euros will address the situation...even the thorny problem of how to repatriate 10's of millions of Muslim "citizens" that have failed to become proper Germans, Brits, French, Italians, etc. The longer they wait to apply tough measures though, the tougher the final measures will have to be.

46 heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:28:15am

Following is from ArabNews a couple of days ago. Maybe when the Saudi's figure out how to deal with the problem they have created, they'll let the rest of us in on it, too:

Wasted Youth, Unspent Energy
Raid Qusti

Something is bothering me.

It all began last week when I went to the supermarket with my wife. Swarms of young men were gathered in the parking lot with their fancy cars. I’m sure they were having a good time blasting their car stereo systems and showing their skills in laughing loudly to get the attention of the women or families passing by. I started to feel very uncomfortable as I got closer to the entrance. Holding my wife’s hands tightly, I had hoped that maybe inside we would find relief from them. Instead, I was surprised to find that there were equal numbers of them inside.

As we finished shopping and left, nothing could comfort me more than the sight of a police car driving toward the area of the parking lot.

There’s no running away from these young men and their behavior in Riyadh.

Just yesterday, while I was driving to work, I saw a car with tinted windows being chased by another car with two young men in it. There were women passengers in the back seat of the first car. I watched from a distance as the poor driver tried to shake off the other car. It wasn’t working. These guys were determined to pull over the car with girls in it even on a main street in Riyadh in broad daylight.

It got to the point where they actually braked in front of the tinted car, causing the driver to stop to prevent a collision. After futile attempts to get them to lower their windows, the young men finally left them alone and drove off.

How I wished I was driving a tank instead of a Toyota Avalon.

It’s impossible to have a police car in every corner of the city. But something must be done about this problem. Something must divert all this unspent energy our youth obviously have.

I’ve been to several Arab and Gulf countries and I have never seen such things there. Why is this phenomenon only found in Saudi Arabia?

I tend to the conclusion that our own customs and traditions have backfired on us. Perhaps the complexity of our social structure has led to this. Saudi males and females are segregated from their first years in life to adulthood, and do not experience the presence of the opposite sex in one another’s lives. The result is that when young men — or women — reach puberty, with all its excess energy, the sexual urge toward the opposite sex is multiplied. Add that to the absence of real role models in our lives, and the absence of leisure or entertainment outlets in Saudi Arabia, and the picture becomes clear.

Saudi readers may argue that our society has always been segregated, but we never had this problem before. True. But let us not forget that in the past, young men were more responsible. Most young men in the past married in their early twenties, or even earlier, and were responsible for their families. Also, our predecessors made it a priority to bring up their children teaching them moral values and consideration and respect for others.

But Saudi Arabia 40 years ago is not Saudi Arabia today. Seventy percent of our population is below the age of 21. We are also suffering from a population explosion.

Every weekend, as I drive around Tahlia, Olaya, Thalatheen, or Dabab street in Riyadh, I am presented with a sad reality. The streets are filled with cars full of young men driving aimlessly around. It reminds me of the American saying “all dressed up and nowhere to go.” It describes perfectly what these young people are going through.

How are we going to tap into all the excess energy our youth have?

Last week I read in Arab News that cinema may be introduced in Saudi Arabia. I do not know how true these rumors are, but if cinemas were to be introduced they would first have to be approved by our unelected, all-male Shoura Council, which could be a tough call.

Yet even if the idea was approved, how would we get the crowds of men and women together in front of the large screen? We would have to have a day for singles and another day for families to meet our Saudi customs. And again, because of customs and tradition, during family days, the movie would probably be delayed by half an hour or longer because cinema staff would have to go around replacing seats — since it is a social taboo for a woman to sit next to a man in Saudi Arabia.

Saudia flight attendants have the same problem before the departure of any flight. It is not practical at all.

Moreover, let us not forget that Saudis are renowned for being inconsiderate. So even if the seating for men and women was finally in place, I am confident that once the movie started, we’d be hearing all sorts of mobile phones ringing here and there, or someone talking in a loud voice to his partner, or a baby crying in the audience because the mother insisted on bringing the infant along. The possibilities are endless.

I don’t believe in the idea of cinemas here. Not unless a miracle happens, and our attitude toward each other changes dramatically.

Arab News Opinion 26 February 2003


47 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:35:02am

#39 Buckeye Abroad

was the burning of your synagoue reported in the media?

Hmmm. A complete answer would have been, yes, but not in the French media.

48 Will not give into 'Submission'  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:36:25am

And calling these bunch of insane cultists for what their worth is somehow racist?

A moderate muslim, one who does not do this crap, just does not live close enough to an imam to hear allah's Aum Shinri Kyo (Supreme Truth, killer cult) or be executed for defiying it.

49 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:40:00am

A French site about what Muslim immigration means for women.

From this page:

Every month in France 6 women are killed by their violent husband. In the Paris region, half of the women killed in the last 10 years have been killed by their partner.

50 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:52:06am

Should be good news for Wall Street. France should always be a good long term investment, and in the short term socialism and an ostrich-like approach to crime, violence and joblessness should open up lots of purchases on the cheap. Being on the coast, we can always enforce our property rights if anyone were to try to welch. We know the way there.

Parents with errant young children know what to do to fix the problems, they only need the will to do so. Western countries know how to solve most of their domestic problems and likewise need to fix them before the negative patterns get too ingrained (a thoroughly screwed up and recitivent teen).

51 Cyrus  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:54:13am

Den Beste described the situation best:

Arab culture must liberalise, and we no longer have the luxury of waiting for that to happen on its own.

We have to embark on this effort because the only alternative is to kill them all. If we don't work to institute deep cultural reform, there will be more and more attacks against us which are progressively more and more damaging, and our reprisals will become more and more catastrophic. We have to fight now to prevent unconscionable slaughter later.

These are the only options. We must make this clear to the Arabs.

I know this isn't the liberal, tolerant, viewpoint but it is the necessary one. Unfortunately, by the time the rest of the world (Europe, Russia, China) realize this slaughter may be their choice. In other words, by the time these others realize something must be done about the Arab world, things will be so bad that all they want to do is destroy it.

52 Amy  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:55:32am

I've said it before (as has la Fallaci), and I believe it: Islam is an indigestible lump in the gut of the West. The Muslims are uninterested in assimilating; rather, they demand that the larger society accommodate itself to their cultural and religious sensitivities while denying the same consideration to non-Muslims in Muslim countries. And no one dares talk about it lest they be labeled racists.

The kind of social pathology demonstrated by the article Charles posted doesn't surprise me in the least, though it disgusts me. These males feel inferior and discriminated against, so they need to keep another group even lower down on the prestige scale than they are. Women are the perfect candidates.

What I want to know is where these women's fathers and other male relatives are in all of this. A woman's male family members are supposed to protect her from non-related males, but nowhere in this story is there even a mention of such men.

The French and the other Europeans are reaping what they have sown. They colonized Muslim lands, which gave the inhabitants claims on the mother countries, including the right to immigrate there, but they are not fully accepted by the natives.

Paris is full of Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Lebanese, etc. I'm not sure where the Arabs who are in Belgium and the Netherlands came from. The immigrants in Germany are mostly Turks, who, I think, cause fewer problems because they are more secular.

It will take many generations (if ever) for Europe to absorb these immigrants, in which time Islamic culture will have had a definite impact on European culture. What Europe will end up being is not the Europe any of us know now. In fact, even if Europe were to stop further immigration tomorrow, I think it's already too late, based on the explosive Muslim birthrate and resistance to assimilation.

What I'd like to know is what Europe is going to do vis-a-vis its opposition to the death penalty and its penchant for coddling criminals in the face of a growing criminal Muslim subculture.

53 Annelid[deleted]  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:05:07am
54 A S D  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:06:01am

We have the same picture in Scandinavia.

Things are going from bad to worse. The "tolerance" for this barbarity is nothing else than a cultural suicide. But if you dare to criticize or even comment these atrocities in public, you will be "neutralized" for the rest of your life.

The only outspoken "opinions" that nowadays are sanctioned by the socialistic government, the state-driven television or the larger newspapers, are of cause hatred of Jews, Israel and America.

As a immediately result of this anti-Israeli and anti-American policy, the interest for Arabic and Moslem "culture" has risen to sky-high levels. The pro-Palestinian crowds or the mass-demonstration here February 15 showed with nearly comic transparency the new left-wing/Moslem unity.

This is a distinctive trend all over western Europe. And there is a clear relation between the decisions of the establishment and the violence of the streets. 15 000 000 Moslem immigrants is the best weapon (and alibi) the old Nazi-collaborators (such as France, Belgium, Sweden etc.) ever can get. Dealing with the Holocaust is a serious business...

However, for me with my heritage this period have been the absolutely worst in my entire life. Actually it is hard to find words for what I have seen and heard during the last two years.

55 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:14:20am

Amy: They'll empower a new Hitler. Keep in mind, I'm not trying to equate Jews with Muslims. But there's a segment of the population they'll want desperately to be rid of, but not want to confront the issue straight-on in public debate. So when a hard-ass who promises to solve the problem, restore the "former glory" and rally the people around the flag, they'll knowingly and willingly look the other way while he gets to work.

Maybe the new hard-case can gut welfare, cut off imigration except when good for the country, and start shipping the undesirables out of country and leave it at that. The unassimilated will be dropped off at the appropriate shore, and if the homeland doesn't like it, tough. Any other country that doesn't like it will be welcome to take them in. In fact, an attempt to drop off the immigrants at one of their ports will shut them up in a hurry. People elsewhere in Europe will cluck about his simplisme and lack of PC sensibilites, but the undercurrent will be "We gotta get us some of that!"

If the riff-raff won't leave peaceably, well, there's a final solution for that too.

56 blogaddict  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:16:00am

When PC multiculturalism meets Moslem/Arab/N.African immigration and its resultant problems, PC multiculturalism seems to win every time--so far. These immigrants have taken one of the West's major strengths--toleration for the culture of others--and turned it against the West in an act of cultural jujitsu.

If Europe doesn't wake up to what is happening and assert its own cultural standards and laws, and stop appeasing thugs from ANY country (and, right now, the majority appear to be Moslems from the above areas), it will find itself in a pack of trouble. I fear Europe is already in grave danger.

When 9-11 happened, I (who had been, up to that point, a liberalish Democrat) assumed that the US would immediately stop almost all immigration from these countries, and cut down greatly on visitors, also. I was sad to feel this way, because it went against my previous belief system, but I felt that, under the circumstances, it was the only way to go. It seems ludicrous to compell the Western world to commit suicide in order to defend multiculturalism and open borders in the face of such a clear and present danger; that would be madness! Since then, though, I have been quite surprised that there have been only slight cutbacks. I, like many others, wonder what it will take for Western countries to wake up and deal with this situation.

57 Jake  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:17:39am

These neighborhoods around Paris are so bad that the police are scared to go into them at night. Many calls to the police go unanswered. That is one way to keep crime stats down.

These neighborhoods are the breeding grounds for the next generation of terrorists. The French government is going to have to deal with this problem and not pretend it does not exist. (sound familiar?)

58 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:23:39am

Likewise it could get interesting if Vicente Fox decides to make an ass of himself through the security council. Then illegals, mostly from Mexico, who roam the US could get a tap on the shoulder in public or whenever interfacing with the gubment. "Noticed you speak absolutely no English. May I see your immigration papers? No? OK, back you go."

Americans for the most part seem to have no problem with hispanics, but have huge problems with people breaking the law, refusing to assimilate, and a government that turns a blind eye to the situation. Sorry, this is our party. You are welcome to apply legally so we can pick and chose the law-abiding who our most valuable to us economically and nationaly.

No matter what your origins are, be sure and bring a healthy respect for our customs and conventions with you. Bring your cultural touches, we love em, but if the American way ain't foremost in your heart, be ready to turn your ass around.

59 hans ze beeman  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:25:17am

#55, #56: I agree with you (and model4, when will you start yer own blog, would be certainly a sharp-eyed one...). Only problem in all Western countries is the age pyramid. Muslims are multiplying like rabbits, obviously (no pejorative vibe intended), while the birth-rate among original population is low - due to higher luxury desires. We need a fundamental shift of paradigm not only in this area, but also in the area of threat estimation, as you say. These problems will only grow with time. Therefore, even though I hear right now that Powell wants to give inspectors more time, a war on Iraq will break open many problems - but these need a solution, the faster the better.

Resistance. is. futile.

60 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:32:46am

Err, in #55 I'm not endorsing those measures or attitudes in full. My point was supposed to be that by failing to face up to the responsibilities of maintaining national values, Europe will pass a breaking point and go too far.

Allowing people into a country that isn't their own who don't approve of the way it is, is a recipe for a weakend and ruderless original population... you know, the ones who made it a place good enough for others to desire to live there. It ends in hatred, bloodshed and tears. Disgusting how easy this is to see, and how easy it is to fix, yet we stutter and quake while the damage is done.

61 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:34:34am

#52 Amy

What I'd like to know is what Europe is going to do vis-a-vis its opposition to the death penalty and its penchant for coddling criminals in the face of a growing criminal Muslim subculture.

I'm not talking about the whole Europe... but the evolution in France is clear.

The former head of the police in the town I live is a close friend -- his family comes from the same Italian village as my father's family. He's spent more than one evening at home, drinking too much and worrying about one single issue: the policewomen. You see, there's one of those big 'cités' in this town. There are 25 to 30 collective rapes every week in this cité. And it's the policewomen that try to console the victims and listen to them -- most rape victims would not, could not, talk to a man for days.

Now, if normal citizens like me decide they are fed up, go in the cités and start shooting, that's bad enough. If the police does that... the society breaks down. That's what he was scared shitless about -- until he retired. Oh, and he just stopped drinking.

In totally unrelated news, a group of policemen and -women calling themselves the CCR (Comités Canal-Résistance) has started organizing. On January 27th, 2003, they answered the French Prime minister 'I won't allow anybody to damage a mosque' talk of Jan. 26th by painting 15 mosques in 10 big towns all over France in blue/white/red -- the colors of the French flag.

What do you think is going to happen?

62 A S D  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:42:37am

Sorry, I mean "an immediate"...

#56 A major strike against London, Paris or Rome...

63 McGill Jordan  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:46:07am

Vitry-sur-Seine, a Paris suburb that is striving to create a community spirit around its faded, pastel-colored high-rises, made headlines when Sohane Benziane, 17, was set alight in October by an 18-year-old boy whose friends stood nearby.

Not to let the monster off that did this, but this behaviour by the rejected happens all the time in the West. We've all read about the rejected male killing his exgirlfriend/wife or whatever and dumping her somewhere. OF course, this is not to say that the Muslim perception of women was not a mittigating factor. I believe it was a large factor. All I am saying is lets not overlook "our" actions as well.

Cheers,
Jordan.

64 Cyrus  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 9:08:22am

If I understand them correctly, the "cites" are the one smart thing the French have done. By keeping the problem people in a controlled area it will make genocide that much easier when it is necessary.

65 MB  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 9:24:48am

#46's post is very important. The social problems work greatly in our advantage, ecspecially in the ME.

The US plan is to change the regime in Iraq and establish a free country directly in the heart of the region. Sooner than you think, the mostly young people from Iran, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi will find a very interesting and alluring alternative.

I am optimistic that this is the first domino in a long line of soon to fail regimes. Most importantly, hope may return to the region. This is the only solution.

66 hulugu  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 10:02:21am

the french bainlieu chicks are fighting back--see [Link: www.macite.net--they...] have started a campaign--"ni putes ni soumises-'-neither whores nor submissives"--and are having organized marches in french towns and cities--since the frog government is not doing any thing ,they are organizing--there is obviosly a "freudian" bent to this macho behavior from these islamoslime male teenagers--who by custom can't explore their heterosexuality until they get married and so resort to segregated malebonding quasi homosexual acting out againt the girls they can't get through an equality relationship--what a f**k upped culture--alot of islamofacist behavior has to do with the repression of heterosexuality during adolescence--MAKE LOVE NOT DAR AL HARB

67 Cinciphil  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 10:04:55am

Killing all muslims would solve our problems.

68 hulugu  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 10:07:31am

sorry--take away the "they' to get to website [Link: www.macite.net...]

69 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 10:20:56am

Oddly enough, if we get close to a best-case scenario out of post-war Iraq, a similar problem could rear its head. A secular, successful and relatively tolerant land in the midst of the ME cesspool. A new Iraqi government must insist that no, the poor, uneducated, criminal and agitators of neighboring countries are NOT welcome. This will just cripple and derail a fledgling democracy. The clear message must be "You can have it like we do, you've just gotta run the violent and corrupt out of your own land."

hans: Thanks for the kind compliments. I think there's enough great blogs out there for now, and I don't have enough uniqueness and quality to warrant starting another, just yet. Either of those things may change in the future though :) Until then I look forward to posting.
Whenever anyone puts out a good new argument, or an eloquent way of illustrating an existing one, it gets an audience. It gets refined and tested by other thinkers. And it gets out there with a chance to influence the thoughts and discourse of others, sometimes a world away. :)

70 Andrew  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 10:52:51am

Dalrymple in the best and most depressing articles of
the life and times of the hell of Paris Cites and the
effect on old Paris

Barbarians at the Gate

71 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 11:00:48am

#70 Andrew

Very good article, and a reasonably optimistic point on view on Paris.

72 heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 11:08:05am

Comment #1: So "genocide" when the Israeli's move Palestinians the hell away from them is not OK, but "genocide" to kill off a Muslim population in France would be okey-dokey? Or can we just agree that any civilized country boxing up and booting out Muslims would be acting in self-defense.

Comment #2: If we could convince several of the ME countries to have wars with each other, like Iran and Iraq did, which would kill off several hundred thousand of these lizard-eyed derangoid young men, that would be a good moral and political solution.

Comment #3: I don't think the young men are angry at women -- I think they're terrified of them. They don't know *how* to seduce a woman, except waving around fire and gasoline as blackmail. Can you imagine what would happen if a young woman pointed at her heckler's crotch and burst into laughter?

Comment #4: I wonder how much Al-Queda members see their activities as "being a job", something to do to make them feel valuable and important, as opposed to only a religious activity. And if we *could* manage to find all the pathetic shoe-bombers of the world work which would support them and a family, if they would continue to get up in the morning and keep on designing their latest dynamite belt.

73 Amy  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 11:33:11am

#64, #67 - STFU about genocide and killing people! You are no better than those who advocate killing all Jews or all non-Muslims or all Hindus or whatever. I firmly support an end to Muslim immigration to the West, but I certainly must disassociate myself from anyone calling for murdering everyone belonging to a certain racial or ethnic group.

model4:
I'm glad you disavowed the "final solution" which you mentioned in #55 - I was just about to jump on you with both feet when I decided to finish reading the rest of the thread first. That phrase cannot be used anymore without triggering associations with Nazi genocide and therefore should be erased from the language.

hans:
thanks for the response, though it really doesn't address my question about Europeans and capital punishment.

74 heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 11:39:58am

... although, come to think of it, "boxing up and booting" out was what the Serbs were doing to their Muslims. And we didn't approve of that either.

75 Caton  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 11:40:49am

#73 Amy

I've probably not been clear in my answer.

Europe will not go back on the death penalty. Forget it. Plus, it wouldn't do any good: what's the use of having the death penalty when the people who are caught for murder are released in 24 hours? And this will not change either, or anyway, not by pacific means.

What will happen is that the citizens will revolt, led by the same forces that are supposed to contain them, i.e. the police. Riot. Mob rule. And a blood bath.

Then, maybe, a society will be rebuilt. Maybe.

76 Paul  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:02:09pm

I wonder what Regis Debray would make of this report.
Just last Sunday he wrote (in the NY Times): "Europe no longer takes its civilization for civilization itself, no doubt because it is better acquainted with foreign cultures, notably Islam. Our suburbs, after all, pray to Allah." Looks like they're doing more than just praying. The suburban projects with their endemic hatred, violence and crime are time bombs that the French are unable to defuse. The problem will only get worse and within 10-20 years the native French will be in an intolerable situation.

77 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:06:31pm

Amy: Should holocaust be erased from the language, or kristalnacht, etc? Maybe you mean to say those terms shouldn't be abused or used lightly, but I won't put words in your mouth.

I intended the association, because there are similar patterns. And it would only compound the tragedy of the past to allow it to return tomorrow, not out of impotence, but out of vanity and cowardice of many in Europe.

78 Amy  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:21:29pm

model4 -
Unless I misread your posting, your use of the term "Final Solution" referred to a means by which Europe could rid itself of its Muslims (i.e., mass murder). I don't think you can seriously argue the fact that the phrase "Final Solution" has become inextricably linked with genocide. That's why I thought you reconsidered and retracted your use of it.

"Holocaust" can have a meaning other than the genocide of the Jews during WWII.

"Kristalnacht" describes specific events which took place on a particular night in 1938 and, as such, is merely descriptive.

"Final Solution," on the other hand, encompasses the entire Nazi concept of genocide and can no longer mean anything else but that. That's why the term should no longer be used.

Hans -
That's depressing!

79 Amy  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:23:19pm

Interesting article from Ha'aretz on French antisemitism and attacks on French Jews:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I thought the poll of French Jews at the end of the article was especially interesting.

80 Model4  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:47:02pm

Amy: We must be on different frequencies today, but thanks for all the comments as always.

In my muddled head the (and any other) "final solution" means a people committing genocide on another people. I'm against this. I think it could happen again, similar mentality, similar circumstances. Europe today has a few of the seeds of the past, this should be watched carefully (doomed to repeat, blah blah).

I intended to bring the topic up, in that context, to illustrate we now know such horrid deeds don't spring out of the clear blue sky. But on review it seemed like there was room to interpret my original comments as agreeing with the action, instead of waving a warning flag. Thus the clarification.

This probably didn't help, but it's worth the effort. Again, thanks. Can't give the wrong impression on such dark topics.

81 Andre  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:50:55pm

This talk about genocide is not helpful.

All it will take is one Muslim visitor to read it and say: "Do you see! They are the real terrorists!"

82 Andre  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 12:54:53pm

I'm curious when they migration of Muslim immigrants began. Europe obviously hasn't always been like this.

I also wonder how well the French program of state-sponsored (i.e., nonviolent, anti-Sharia) Islam is working out. The aim is to divide and dilute the Moslem population by outlawing fundamentalism, AFAIK.

83 kimberly  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 1:50:02pm

I remember the article in Jane magazine. It was about a brutal "tradition" of gang-rape in the suburbs of Paris. Basically, if a girl starts dating and has sex with her boyfriend, then he is pressured to share her with all of his friends. Girls want to date boys and fall in love - and then they're shocked to find out that their boyfriend has been conditioned to believe that it's okay to pass her around, because now she's a "whore" and tainted anyway.

Here's a version of the article that appeared in Jane. It's MUCH worse than you think.

Key paragraph: "The number of minors arrested for rape in France has doubled since 1992, and violent crime has gone up nearly 10% in a year, but the figures don't distinguish gang-rape from rape, and the increases could be explained by people reporting more, or better policing. Girls didn't talk for years, because staying quiet was safer. Arab girls who admit to being raped risk being sent back to their parents' country, and married off or veiled. Non-Arabs live with a reputation as a slut and the threat of reprisals, of their apartments being torched. The day Sabrina's rapists were convicted, she had phone threats. "I put her in a taxi home," says her lawyer Catherine Perelmutter. "And I was honestly scared she would be killed." "

I remember being surprised that this story appeared in Jane, because that magazine tends to be predictably left-wing. But they are genuinely pro-women's-rights, so they were willing to cover this non-PC story (although of course they made no link to Islamic culture and bent over backwards not to notice that this was happening in areas that are mostly Muslim).

84 heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 2:44:05pm

Andre, I know that for me personally, I very much don't care what Muslims say. I'm also a silly millimeter away from not giving a damn what the French think, either. And upon further consideration, can't think of a country I'd rather see it happen to.

Just ... if it comes down to a choice,it would be a hard one to make: saving the French (again) vs. the opportunity to bash Muslim heads together

85 Tatterdemalian  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:14:19pm

All it will take is one Muslim visitor to read it and say: "Do you see! They are the real terrorists!"


They say that already. There are people declaring that the existence of McDonalds proves that America is the real terrorist. Should we also burn down all the McDonalds and hang Ronald from a tree so they can't use that argument any more?

Of all the forms of terrorism I can think of, message forum flamewars are about the least effective. They can only terrorize people who are so ridiculously fragile that they will probably commit suicide the first time they go in for a job interview. (Unfortunately, most of the far-left seem to be just this fragile.)

86 piglet  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:32:39pm

After the war:

10 years of occupation: Schools set up to teach
democracy and diversity. Women in particular
taught empowerment, inluding the use of firearms.

US led teams destroy all nuclear power sites and weapons labs.

If successful in France, we should try these things in Iraq!

87 heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 3:37:23pm

piglet -- ;-)

88 Pike  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 4:46:43pm

Re: # 83 Andre:

...The aim is to divide and dilute the Moslem population by outlawing fundamentalism, AFAIK.

As a first generation AMERICAN, I will say: You come to this country to become an AMERICAN. Anything less;
DON'T BOTHER.

89 Malibu Snackbar  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 5:31:40pm

Abu Lahab, the "Prophet's" uncle who intelligently warned the Arabs not to listen to him, was right.

90 Alex  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 7:49:47pm

If find it very scary to read some of these posts. I am not Muslim, and maybe I should be relieved. Because it seems like there is a lot of racism and hatred directed to American Muslims by the average American. Some people even hint at expulsion or ethnic cleansing.

Would you support a rounding-up and expulsion of Muslims from the U.S.?

You may not answer with a confident and resounding "no!". This is why, if I was a Muslim, I would seriously consider leaving the Land of the Free.


P.S. To those who use the word Arab to describe Muslims. It would perhaps surprise you to discover that many Arabs living in the States are (gasp!) Christian.

91 someone  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:20:03pm

'Muslim' is not a race. And not that it's the wisest path right now, but there is Ann Coulter's suggestion...

92 Amy  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 8:22:41pm

model4:

"Can't give the wrong impression on such dark topics. "

Amen!

Alex:

I'm for expelling non-citizen Muslims and I'm for not granting any more visas to Muslims for any reason. Every country has the absolute right to control its borders and to decide who can come in and who can't. Right now, the threat from potential terrorist attacks is so great that this country has to take strong measures to protect itself. As a result, there will be people who will not get to come here to study or work, and that's too bad, but they have no right to come here.

On the other hand, citizens of the U.S., regardless of race, religion or national origin, are entitled to all of the rights of citizens unless and until they forfeit those rights by engaging in activities which are harmful to this country's security or interests. If they do engage in such activities, they deserve a very long stretch in a jail cell.

Is there anything unreasonable or hateful in what I just said?

93 dPhilc  Sat, Mar 1, 2003 9:30:28pm

That just NOT acceptable - The problem is easy to sort out but not many politicians seems to want to take on such an issue.

94 Just a Dutch immigrant  Mon, Mar 3, 2003 3:22:38am

#37 - Regarding immigration to Europe;

I'm an American (7 or 8 generations) and also an immigrant in the Netherlands. Yes, there are plenty of reasons to immigrate here, if they'll let you. It isn't easy nowadays, but it can be done.

95 ploome  Mon, Mar 3, 2003 7:28:57am

90 Alex 3/1/2003 09:49PM PST

If find it very scary to read some of these posts. I am not Muslim, and maybe I should be relieved. Because it seems like there is a lot of racism and hatred directed to American Muslims by the average American. Some people even hint at expulsion or ethnic cleansing.


...........see Islamic society, and their treatment of minorities, in 53 OIC countries...and believe this is what muslim in America want....

and......

"This is why, if I was a Muslim, I would seriously consider leaving the Land of the Free. "

I will pay your taxi to the airport....buhbye

96 dee  Mon, Mar 3, 2003 7:22:21pm

Where are all the French 'men'? Why are they not protecting their women?

I love the comment that it would all settle down eventually - how many girls will be hassled, humiliated or raped before that happens (if it ever does)?

Are these people crazy? Why should any country accept this kind of behaviour? Does France have deportation laws? Are they ever implemented?

A much better answer is to blow a few heads off - amazing how it influences future behaviour.


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