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No Tears for Corrie

Wed, Mar 19, 2003 at 9:26:30 am PST

Anti-American terror-supporting child abuser Rachel Corrie was killed while attempting to block a bulldozer from tearing down houses in the Rafah area of the Gaza Strip. The leftist press sees her death as a huge propaganda victory—but the people that this noble “human shield” was protecting are smugglers of weapons, cigarettes, drugs, and prostitutes in the well-known “Philadelphi” route.

Rachel Corrie was emphatically not a “peace activist.” She sided with terrorists and criminals, and advocated—in fact, was excited by—violence and mass murder. In her diary entry for February 10, she lavishes praise on suicide bombers:

I would also like to ask you, and those to whom you pass this on, to think about the relative positions of the fighters and occupiers in this monumentally unequal struggle. While the huge force of Israelis have every technical aid invented by the US war machine, the few young fighters have NOTHING BUT THEIR WEAPON (and this not the most modern) - no helmet, bullet proof vest, radio contact or other protection. No back-up, no plane, helicopter, tank, APC, searchlight, dogs, flares, ambulance or refuge - put all the Israeli/American propaganda aside for a few minutes and try to imagine, please, the courage it requires to do what these youngfighters do, knowing that the odds are against escape and that, every time they do succeed in evading death, the odds against a further survival are shortened. Even if the operation is a success the price is always high.

Two days before she wrote this, one of the “young fighters” she admired so much got on a bus in Haifa and blew himself up—murdering 16 people, most of them teenagers.

That’s the “operation” she wrote about.

CORRECTION: the attack on February 8 was a car bomb, not the Haifa bus bombing, which was perpetrated on March 5 and killed 17; thanks to Nik for the correction.

Sadly, there are so many of these attacks it’s easy to get confused about the dates.

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146 comments

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1 SecHumanist  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:28:34am
I still feel like I'm relatively safe and think that my most likely risk in case of a larger-scale incursion is arrest.

Very telling.

2 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:29:46am

Check out the BBC's fawning coverage

Rachel Corrie: An American who died for her "Convictions"

I like the picture, it's a nice touch.

3 Mike Silverman  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:37:44am

As far as I am concerned, the only difference between Rachel Corrie and John Walker (the "American Taliban") is that Corrie was easier on the eyes.

4 Robo11  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:41:26am

Sometimes when you side with the "underdog" you get trounced. She made decisions in her life and paid the price for them. No sympathy.

5 Model4  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:41:35am

She should be... wait... that wish came true! May Saddam join her soon (unless he's willing to roll over on Chiroeder in exchange for life in prison), and Arafat not be far behind.

6 tu3031  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:46:53am

How's it feel being a "martyr", honey? Is it everything they said it was cracked up to be? Was it worth it? I wonder if any of these maniacs who worship you now remember your name next week.

7 TakeFive  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:47:16am

So does she get 72 virgins?

8 roach[deleted]  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:47:39am
9 Dave  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:48:04am
10 Melissa  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:52:25am

Parents are demanding an investigation, according to AP where I found this little gem:

Corrie's parents, Craig and Cynthia Corrie of Charlotte, N.C., called on Israel to "cease harassment" of protesters such as their daughter, who oppose what they call illegal demolitions of Palestinian homes.

Israel harassment? Seems to me she made the mistake of harassing a bulldozer.

11 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:53:01am

OT: I recently went to a big pro-America rally in Atlanta and took pictures of the crowds, the signs, and many close-up portraits of the people. I am a better-than-average snap-shooter, and I will be glad to email anyone half a dozen of the better photos. Please email me, if interested. Hope this does not violate Charles' rules of acceptable use of the comments.

12 Andre  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:53:03am

For a "peace activist," she sure seemed to be pretty excited by combat.

13 Spunky MG  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:54:02am

The world does not seem any the poorer for her passing.

14 Jack Schiraldi  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:54:03am

Rachel made her choice to side with evil. Her parents are responsible for her indoctrination and corruption. She was a terrorist supporter of our enimies and an unapologetic anti-semite. She was our enemy and she betrayed the cause of freedom and peace. She empathised with the gutter rats of the world. If she had really sought the truth she would have found that the men, women and children that she supported were the bretheren of evil.

Her parents and Congressman should not complain for she knew what she was doing. She made her choices. She had disdain for her nation and it's people and she spat on the memory of our honored and innocent dead.

She was a sacrifical lamb for the forces of hatred and deception. Her blood in on the souls of her parents and her facist professors. I will celebrate the demise of my enemy.

15 Ellen  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:54:36am

Rachel Corrie reminds me of the Weathermen back when I was a student in college. They self-destructed, so did she.

No sympathy.

16 J Lichty  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:54:55am

From the poor timing department:

This is not getting the play this would have gotten a few weeks ago. She is being bumped by the War and Elizabeth Smart.

Americans it seems have more important things to think about than just another dead america/jew-hating harpie.

17 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:56:10am

#2 Dirk:

I like the picture, it's a nice touch.

She's kinda cute... except for the hard, hate-filled eyes.

18 Ranbutan  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:57:20am

I orginally felt a little sympathy for her as a victim of an accident, tempered a bit by her flag-burning. Then read a little about her ISM (International Solidarity Movement) and some of her pieces. The one Charles found is a new one.

I liked, in addition to her full support of terror ops, this gem:

the US gunship helicopters - so inappropriately named "Apache' - and heard the rapid clatter of the guns of the ships of death riding the starry sky like alien invaders from another world.

Oh, yes.....as indigent oppressed non-whites the peace-loving Apache with their heritage of non-violence would consider the use of their name "innappropriate". (Actually, when the Army named the beast, they invited Apaches to the opening ceremony.....who were honored, given their reputation as the most deadly, tough, kick-ass Indians the US ever fought...that the US Army gave them this tribute. Ships of death....the real Apaches would get woodies riding in such weapons.)

Anyways, back to Rachel Corrie. I have to say that I have lost all my sympathy. Sort of like being a black guy in the South 100 years ago and hearing that the lit cross fell over at a KKK rally and crushed a guy to death...then reading the local paper obitituaries the next day and finding out that sub-Keagle Harvey Bob Williams was killed in a "terrible accident and is mourned by the whole town". And I would say "Not mourned by me, baby...not mourned by me....no sireee!"

19 Smit  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:57:34am

#9 Dave - They spell her name wrong, hold her soul hostage and call her a poopie.

Sheesh.

20 nik @ work  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 7:59:38am
21 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:03:30am

Ranbutan: at least now she doesn't have to witness the operational premiere of the "Comanche".

Should we name future attack helicopters something like the AH-85 "Angry White Male"?

22 nik @ work  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:03:45am

uh oh, another Rachel Corrie thread.. I give 2 hours for the moral police to arrive.. followed by a deluge of hairy trolls

23 Evil Otto  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:05:18am

#17 Occasional Reader:
She's kinda cute... except for the hard, hate-filled eyes.


Ehh, I don't think she's all that cute. She's too flat...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

24 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:06:51am

Public Radio does it again...

I took a chance to listen to MN Public Radio this morning. (I used to be a great supporter of Public Radio until Sept 11). This time they pissed me off in less than 60 seconds. Their "expert" guest equated the activity of Americans displaying the American flag to Nazi nationalism and the displaying of the swastika.
"Not that Americans are Nazis," he said (I'm paraphrasing), but the display of the American flag makes him "feel very uncomfortable."

Sigh.......... you just can't argue with a person whose religion is liberal ideology. It's like arguing with a terrorist who thinks there are 77 virgins waiting for him (or her) in the after life. Not that liberal ideologists are terrorists. But their presence makes me very uncomfortable.

P.S. I had once identified myself as a liberal until Clinton's 2nd term just so you liberals don't think I'm a raving conservative.

25 corsair  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:06:54am

To balance out the horrors of Corrie's photos, may I present Princess Victoria's Photos. I don't know what her politics are regarding this war but I would serve with her any day!

corsair

26 wordwarp  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:07:54am

weird. debka is blank.

checkout the front page of drudge. beautiful picture.

27 Glen Wishard  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:08:23am

She also bragged openly about the international activists' associations with Hamas, Al-Fatah, the PFLP, and DFLP, etc. And her witless comrades at the International Solidarity Movement were stupid enough to publish it (I linked to it the earlier thread, here's another).

When you make common cause with terrorists and murderers it doesn't much matter whether your own actions are violent or not. I doubt that Josef Geobbels ever shot anybody himself. There were a lot of peace activists and pro-Germans in the US before our entry into WWII --- I don't think many of them went to Europe and travelled around with SS einsatzkommandos.

For those who insist on taking "peace activists" at their word,
this website has loads of documentation on the people that Rachel Corrie marched with, and gave aid and comfort to. The DFLP is maybe the least well-known, but not for lack of trying:

Abu Hijleh is a DFLP representative in the Palestinian National Council and his arrest by Israel was at the time condemned by the Palestinian Authority, who insisted that as “a member of the political echelon,” he should be exempt from arrest. During his interrogation, Abu Hijleh revealed the organization’s plans to assassinate a military judge, to kill a former senior officer in the Israel Defense Forces and to carry out a suicide attack, using a suicide bomber with an Israeli identity card.

These groups would claim far more victims than they do if it were not for the preventive efforts of the IDF.

Rachel Corrie died accidentally in the service of utterly ruthless and merciless people who are devoted to bringing death to Israeli civilians; death to Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian dissidents; and sworn (over and over and over and over) to the destruction of the United States and Israel. She was only 23, but old enough to know what she was doing.

28 Smit  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:09:01am

OT - again.

It's nice to know that even in the feverish emergency of reporting the first shots, the indy keeps it real commenting on the all important 'what are people wearing for war' question.


Local commanders of the peshmerga (Kurdish guerrillas), dressed in their traditional baggy trousers, were tense... General Mustafa, a burly man in a black and white turban, whom we had accompanied to the front, calmed them

[Link: news.independent.co.uk...]

29 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:09:27am

#18 last paragraph

well said........

30 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:10:12am

#24 ray: I, too, used to describe myself as "liberal". The problem is essentially that self-described "liberals" today tend to support illiberal ideologies.

31 HotBrownSandwich  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:16:23am

Charles, keep digging. The truth is out there.

I am incensed that this "peace" activist's name is being coupled in several articles with Nuha Swedain, a Palestinian 9 months pregnant whose house was toppled on top of her. This truly is a tragedy, regardless of why the building was being destroyed. Rachel Corrie sought out ways to risk her life, and to compare her to Nuha is repulsive.

Anyone have any useful info on Swedain?

I am also angered that her death will be used by a culture that extends no rights to women in the first place. Ah well, another story....

32 SecHumanist  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:18:16am

#14 Jack Schiraldi

Her parents are responsible for her indoctrination and corruption.

Acutally, her mom apparently (don't have the mom's letters) wrote to her that Palestinian terrorism ruined their cause, that their violence made it hard to side with them. It was Rachel who wrote back:

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.

You asked me about non-violent resistance.

Source

If only her feeble little mind could grasp the causation from terror to the situation she describes (sans hyperbole)... Hmm.. we got in this situation as a result of our relentless hatred and terrorism against innocents, I know, we weren't violent and sadistic enough, that was the problem!

33 Toby  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:20:17am

Cripes Smit...If I keep laughing like that at work, the fellas with the nets will haul my crazy ass away.

As for Rachel, another delusional tool with 'progressive' parents.

34 SecHumanist  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:20:37am

btw: #25 corsair

Hot damn!

35 Bloodthirsty Warmonger  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:21:11am

The most pathetic thing about Rachel Corrie was that SHE DIED FOR NOTHING!

36 Glen Wishard  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:21:49am
I would also like to ask you, and those to whom you pass this on, to think about the relative positions of the fighters and occupiers in this monumentally unequal struggle.

When will the Left wise up enough to realize that the reason this "monumentally unequal struggle" persists is that the IDF behaves with humanity and restraint, and therefore does not simply annihilate every street gang that rises up against them?

When did you ever see a photograph of a French kid throwing a rock at a panzer?

37 Peter  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:26:14am

The "International Solidarity Movement", whose website is at palsolidarity.org has been doing some housecleaning.
When they first surfaced a while back I checked them out; they were much more explicit about what they stood for. The old pages aren't on archive.org (bad links). WHat I remember is that they supported Palestinian "military actions" such as blowing up children, but felt that their own energies would be more productive if they gave the war on Israel cover that used civil rights language; they saw "non-violent" actions such as Corrie's as part of an overall strategy. Murders are an integral part of the strategy, but hypocrites like AIM get to vilify Israeli self defense while feeling holier than thou because they personally don't blow up women and children.

38 Kevin  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:29:00am

#30

#24 ray: I, too, used to describe myself as "liberal". The problem is essentially that self-described "liberals" today tend to support illiberal ideologies.

Me three. But most "liberals" support these positions from default and fashion. I imagine most of the people crying over this terrorist groupie have no clue as to the sum of her activities since their more radical handlers (i.e., leftists) have cornered the market on eulogizing for these "people-who-care" and the homicidal maniacs for whom they care. And to look beyond the Nation and Mother Jones to such extremist fascists rags like... say The New Republic (who are smart enough to call a spade a shovel and a terrorist a nihilisic murderer)... for alternative sources of information (like cold hard facts, for example) is just too much to ask.

39 bill in GA  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:32:00am

#22

nik thanks for that, got a good laugh.

40 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:33:56am

#30:

From my personnal experiences, my liberal friends fall into two categories:

1) Don't read or follow "politics" or study the current issues.
2) Read only that material which supports their political and/or religious belief system.

Psychologists describe person #2 as one "who likes to stay in their comfort zone."

The liberals have stopped growing intellectually as far as I'm concerned. And I truly belief that they are morally confused.

41 Joshua Chamberlain  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:35:13am

The usual "freedom fighter" nonsense: "It's not terrorism. The Palestinians have to blow themselves up because they have no other way of fighting for their independence." Or some similar foolishness.

42 BIGZZZ  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:35:56am

I havn't seen the photo of Corrie burning the flag in the NY Times yet. Maybe someone here should send it in a letter to the Editor.

43 Amos  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:37:28am

#23,

You're evil, but astute. :^)

44 Glen Wishard  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:41:12am

George Neumayr has a good article on this in The American Prowler:

American radicals court tragedy, get it, and then proceed to blame the tragedy on others ...

An honest radical accepts the inevitable price of his radicalism; the fake radicalism which yuppie parents and profs underwrite ignores that price and then demands that others carry it ...

America's radical minds speak of "responsibility" but never take it. They encourage "choices" but disown bad ones made and disclaim any role in the consequences that follow from them ... Corrie was one of their conscripts. They sent her into battle and she died.

45 Ranbutan  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:44:38am

#21 - Why stop with naming a helicopter after "white angry males"? We have new unmanned fighter-bombers, bombers planned 20 years out.

How about the "White Hateful Angry Males for Muslim Oppression" bomber?

Better known as WHAMMO. Something to make Rachel Corrie twist and snarl in her grave.

46 bill in GA  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:46:36am

#45

funniest thing ive ever read on these boards.

47 Andre  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:46:42am

For a so-called "peace activist," what about her was peaceful?

Did she teach the Arab children to live peacefully with their neighbors? (See figure A).

Did she educate the Arab population to employ nonviolent means of civil disobedience? I don't think so.

Did she deplore violence on both sides? .... I don't think so, either.

She may have been unarmed, she may have not committed violence, but there was no peace in this young woman. She died defending a smuggler's route from Egypt.

She took sides in a war, and she died by accident. That's too charitable an end for her.

48 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:47:44am

#38 Kevin

With some of my liberal friends I no longer speak politics with them. Others don't speak to me 'cuz I suppose, I make them feel uncomfortable since there's an American flag hanging outside my house and I wear American flag pins on my lapels.

With those who are sitting on the fence, I casually tell them what I know. I share information that I learn at this site, books and other sources. I talk facts with them. Most of the time they have no facts to counter with except, maybe, Bush stuttered during a press conference a couple months ago, or he "swaggers" like a cowboy.

If you argue with a liberal you will hear stuff like this: (paraphrase)

"The Kurds who were gassed in Iraq were at war with Sadaam. You can't blame Sadaam for that."

or

"Did you know that Bush was wearing a pin of the American flag on his lapel when he was giving his war speech Monday night? Scary."

I kid you not. I heard those comments. Swear to God!

You can't argue with people like that. To them, Rachel's death was a "tragedy" and should be "investigated fully until we come up with some real answers."

Sigh.............

49 ploome  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:51:44am

"Deploying human shields is not a military strategy, it's murder, a violation of the laws of armed conflict and a crime against humanity, and it will be treated as such. Those who follow his (Saddam's) orders to use human shields will pay a severe price for their actions."

General Myers, referring to the arrival of the group from London, said:

"Using noncombatants to shield potential military
targets -- even those who volunteer for this purpose -- could be considered a war crime in any conflict."
"If death or serious injury to a noncombatant resulted from these efforts, the individuals responsible for deploying any innocent civilians as human shields could be guilty of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions."

It is specifically Article 51 of the 1977 amendment of the 1949 Geneva Conventions that prohibits human shields.

"The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objects from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations."

I assume that the wording of article 51 was based on the assumption that it would cover just the involuntary movement and presence of civilians and human shields, but would not cover the case of a non violent civil disobedient acting as human shields. Is that assumption wrong?
Is it legally possible to define a volunteer, who acts as a human shield on his own initiative, as being "deployed"? Saddam Hussein can and certainly will "deploy" Iraqi civilians to act as human shields, but he has no authority to "deploy" or "order" foreigners, who enter Iraq voluntarily, to act as human shields.

If foreign human shields can't be considered "deployed", can they still be treated as "war criminals" under International or US law?

Can the US Armed Forces, for example, take French human shields in Iraq as POW and then try them as war criminals under the Geneva Convention in front of the ICC? Or could the US Armed Forces take US human shields as POW and try them for treason in the US? Would it legally make a difference, if the US invades with an UN mandate versus a unilateral action? If so, which one?

Latest UPI article on this subject
Geneva Convention, 1977 Addition, Civilians

Full discussion: [Link: www.kuro5hin.org...]

50 gymnast  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:54:20am

#18 Ran. Great eulogie. #24, Ray, any liberal who disagrees with you about anything will accuse you of being a "raving Conservative" saves them time when they can't debate because they don't know facts or context for a rational argument.

51 John  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 8:57:24am

No Americans cried at the death of Benedict Arnold, either. She was a traitor.

Enemy death count =1.

52 Moral Police ?  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:02:39am

I can't pretend to understand the anger you must all feel to write such hatefull things.

She had an opinion - that was different from your own.

Is it now the American way to wish death and destruction on people who disagree with you ??

What happened to the land of the free?

53 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:03:18am

#50 gymnast
True. But my liberal friends like me and I like them so we don't rant at each other. Still, I'm gradually breaking contact with them. I can no longer bear the ignorance. It's like listening to lawyers who are trying to defend Ted Bundy.

Example: Our church's regional bishop was interviewed about America's war with iraq. He said that "we (America) are loathed and we deserve to be loathed."

Guess who is not putting anything in the collection basket Sunday? Hell, guess who is no longer going to attend that church?
Asnwer: me

54 V. Valberg  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:04:08am

Well if anyone is interested you could always check out my latest mentioning Rachel Corrie, I think that I give the little angel all the "respect" that she deserves. So far no hateful ranting letters from the liberal press, I really can't figure why... Oh and Anglicans might be a tad offended by my latest.

That said isn't it astonishing how these people accuse the Israelis of being horrible murdering beasts, and yet acts as if it is not true. I mean basically they stand up to the israelis in ways they could never do if the Israelis were really that bad.

However the reason why she attacks Israel and not the Paleosimians is very simple: The Israelis won't tie her up inside a car and set it on fire for disagreeing with them, the Palestinians have been known to do just that. No principles here, just weak witted liberal guilt.

One of these days leaders and factions in Europe will come that has no such guilt, and who in fact violently recent the very idea. This will not be an entirely good thing, but what astonishes me is that when they do come the liberals will blame anyone but themselves for it.

55 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:06:11am

#52 Moral Police?

Is that you, nik@work? Right?

#52 is some kind of joke, right?

56 nik  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:06:26am

Charles -

2 minor corrections:

The suicide bombing in Haifa happened on March 5, not Feb. 8.

There were 17 victims, one died days later in the hospital.

February 8 terrorist attack
March 5 suicide bombing

57 Rick Reed  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:06:58am

To paraphrase the WSJ's Best of the Web the other day, it was tragic how she met her death, as it was tragic how she led her life.

At least we're reminded not the challenge a bulldozer to a game of squash.

Cordially...

58 nik  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:07:26am

LOL. #55 ray - that's not me.

59 nik  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:08:45am

I was off by 1 hour..

60 Amy  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:09:15am

#18 - Ranbutan:

Sort of like being a black guy in the South 100 years ago and hearing that the lit cross fell over at a KKK rally and crushed a guy to death...then reading the local paper obitituaries the next day and finding out that sub-Keagle Harvey Bob Williams was killed in a "terrible accident and is mourned by the whole town".

Perfect analogy and extremely funny. Had me guffawing at my computer screen, to the consternation of colleagues.

(One nit to pick - it's "Kleagle" - to go with "Klu," "Klux" and "Klan," y'know - their hatred has to be euphonious).
:->

61 V. Valberg  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:12:34am

Re #52

You think these people are hateful? No they are not, they are simply voicing their oppinion. I on the other hand tend towards ridicule of someone so utterly deserving of the Darwin Award.

Oh and if you read Good Morning AmeriKKKa, my latest piece (and relax good netizens the title is purely ironic and the peace not at all hostile to America), you will find my take on Rachel Corrie. Among other things I have a plug for the International House of Pancakes there.

I believe that ridicule is the right response to the ridiculous, and someone lying down in front of a bulldozer and getting killed through nothing other than their own massive stupidity... well that is comedy gold!

"YES! The evil baby butchering murder ZioNAZI's will surely stop their evil deeds because I AM AN AMERICAN! No wait! I am an international!" :-P

62 Eric E.  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:15:55am

When was the last time anyone, especially in the media, felt the slightest need to qualify someone before asking for their opinion on anything? When was the last time someone got shot down for being completely uninformed about an issue and speaking out on it? That's the real problem folks. Conservatism has become a gourmet meal: it takes longer, you need to learn some skills and not everyone is going to think the end product is appetizing, but hey, fillet mignon and asparagus tips with spring potatoes and leeks tastes a lot better than Liberal style Easy-Mac and Cheese with Rugrat shaped noodles. Problem is, most people want and expect to be spoon fed this stuff. Sad.

63 gymnast  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:18:18am

#52 , contextual awareness problem or perceptual self deception? Moral compass dysfunction? Get a clue #52, get a fact or two.

64 John  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:19:05am

#52 ("Moral" Police) writes:

Is it now the American way to wish death and destruction on people who disagree with you ??

No, it is the American way to condemn a murderous thug such as the late Ms. Corrie who reveled in the thought of violence, joined others in like celebrations, and threw away her life in an attempt to protect the financing of terror against the innocent.

What happened to the land of the free?

Despite the best efforts of Ms. Corrie and her fascist handlers and propagandists, it still stands.

65 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:24:43am

#52

Vandalize for Peace;

Monday night my home and my neighbor's home, were vandalized. We have American flags outside our homes.

Coincidence? Perhaps. I doubt it.

Should I "understand the anger" of these vandals. Should I "reflect" at what I may have "done wrong?"

#52, if you're serious about you're comment you have to do some homework. I don't mean that as an insult.
Ya gotta believe me, bud. This ain't the sixties and seventies anymore. There is a War On Terrorism going on. It's not like our fatherss wars. It's not like WWII, Korea, Nam, Desert Storm. It's a New Day. You have to choose sides. Rachel chose the wrong side. She died for her convictions. Fine. All terrorists and their friends should die for their convictions because We are At War with Terrorists...
It has come down to this: either they surrender or die, or we do! That's why they call it war.

By the way, the Vandals for Peace used eggs. I can deal with eggs if they can deal with baseball bats and bullets.

66 spector  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:28:29am

I am living in Haifa, near the site of the last bus explosion. However, as a human being I was sorry for the death of Corrie (which I believe caused by accident due also to the sheer foolishness of that woman.) Yet, after reading this excerpt of her diary I feel she got her worth, though as an Israeli I am trying hard to keep to old Jewish notion - not to be glad with the fall of my enemy.

67 piglet  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:37:39am

Is it too soon to talk pro and con about
having a bulldozer knock down her parents house
in Seattle
since she was helping terrorists?

I really hate people who misquote Einstein.

68 Clutch  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:45:49am

#20

Hey, Nik, it is up to 17 Iraqi soldiers now. Anyone taking bets as to how many surrender BEFORE the real defacation hits the ventilation?

69 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:52:39am

#67 piglet- good idea

but i wonder...

Does her family get anything from Saddam or the Saudis for her efforts in the struggle against the Zionists and the Big Satan that supports them?

70 Amy  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:55:15am

#66 - spector:

I appreciate your sentiments, but where is it written that it's a Jewish notion not to be glad over the fall of your enemy?

The Hebrews were certainly happy when Jericho fell and when the Egyptians were drowned in the Red Sea and when David killed Goliath and when Samson pulled the temple down... There are many such examples.

I don't think it's "un-Jewish" to be glad when your enemy fails to destroy you - that's what Purim and Passover and Chanukah are about, and they're all joyous holidays.

Otherwise, I agree with you - after reading her vile justifications for murdering Jews, any remaining shred of regret and sympathy that I had for her senseless death was removed. She is no better than the terrorists whom she was attempting to protect, and she deserved what she got no less than they deserve what they get.

71 Clutch  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:56:53am

OT:

US jets strike artillery position in southern Iraq. 10 artillery pieces were within range of US troops massed on the Kuwait border, so they were taken out with precision munitions...

Looks like the rumble is on. Or is it???

72 Frank IMC  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 10:37:22am

Is it now the American way to wish death and destruction on people who disagree with you ??

Ummmm, if you have bothered to read ANY of the articles here, you would understand that it's more than just a "disagreement".

What happened to the land of the free?

It's safe for now, no thanks to idiots like you who have no clue about who our real friends and enemies are.

73 Frank IMC  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 10:41:07am

#60 Amy -

What would we do without euphonious hatred, eh?

BTW, thank G-d Mr. A is gone, so I can fling my usual ad-hominems without fear of hypocrisy. ;)

74 Charles  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 10:53:59am

It is not OK to post her parents' address and phone number here. I've deleted your comment; please don't post it again.

75 whiner  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 10:59:32am

#70 Amy,

I do not mourn Corrie's death -- it was no one's fault but her's, and she was aiding and abetting terrorists -- but I think you are wrong about the Jewish perspective on the deaths of enemies.

You remember the part of the Seder where a drop of wine is spilled for each of the Plagues? It symbolizes tears for the deaths of the Egyptians.

76 Spunky MG  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:01:14am
no helmet, bullet proof vest, radio contact or other protection. No back-up, no plane, helicopter, tank, APC

You get the impression that Corrie and the rest of peace-twits wish Arafat did have aircraft, tanks, and missiles... all the better to speed along the 'Final Solution' vis-a-vis the state of Israel.

77 nik  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:01:37am

#72 How about sending a Purim basket to a victim of Palestinian terror?

#69 Don't know about the Saudis or Saddam, but her family got a laudatory letter from Arafat (it was at JPost some time ago) and a raucous funeral in Rafah.

78 Joel  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:07:30am

I am sorry this woman was foolish enough to challenge a bulldozer and to associate with murderous nihilistic Isalmofascistfreakazoids. I actually wish that the person flattened was Yasser Arafish' boyfriend Adam Shapiro. Now that would be a happy day!

79 steve miller  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:24:04am

slightly OT: yesterday KUOW (Seattle NPR station) had a call-in show discussing the Iraq operation. One gentleman (Ziad) claimed that things under Iraq are fine, that Saddam does torture people, but those people are criminals - and the host's response was to agree with this.

That's why I love NPR.

80 Moral Police ?  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:24:32am

Wow - so you don't like murderous thugs -(#64)
Can someone give me their take on Sharon ?


You guys are so far off - it's not even funny.

Post 9/11 there was a real feeling around the world (I'm British) - that we would stand shoulder to shoulder with you guys (and not just the Brits - everyone - even the French!)

- but that feeling is ebbing away so fast - in mnay countries it's gone already - Germany/France and Russia for example. In the UK this feeling is now maybe 45% of the population.

Why ????

81 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:25:19am

#77
A laudatory letter from Arafat. Some condolence. As a parent I'd hate to get that in the mail.

So, where were her parents when she was walking down the road towards suicidal folly?

82 1-800-STUPIDHEAD  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:28:00am

That was stupid of me. I just saw her mother on Charlotte TV using her daughter's death to trash Israel again. I got angry and picked up the phone book. They're not innocent by any means. They are primarily responcible for her death. If they would stay off the TV for a few days and mourn like normal people, I probably wouldn't have stooped low like I did. Sorry.

83 vtora  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:28:03am

she has to be nominated on Darwin Award!

84 ray  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:35:31am

#80 Moral Police ?

You're from Briton? Try reading Churchill.

Facts about Americans:
That thing you call arrogance. We call it confidence.
We don't need a shoulder to cry on.
We don't need you to "feel our pain."
We're not asking for your approval.
Just get out of the way as we make the world safe.

You get to enjoy liberty, courtesy of the US and her friends. Enjoy the free ride.


Another thing: God bless Tony Blair and his supporters. It's good to know that there's plenty of Brits who do have courage and vision.

85 SecHumanist  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:41:15am

#80 Moral Police ?

Do you have any idea how dangerous useful idiots like Rachel make the situation for all parties involved? You think it was all cute and funny when idiots like ran into the Church of the Nativity and provided aid to the hostage takers there? You think it was just fun and games when the useful idiots (Adam Shapiro among them), entered the Mukata and attempted to smuggle terrorists that Arafat had been harboring along with their group? You think it's funny when, after being encouraged by tools like Rachel, little children run up and throw rocks and molotov cocktails at Israeli soldiers, all the while terrorists shoot with impunity from behind the children (and sometimes kill them, like Palestinians killing Mohammed al-Dura)?

If it takes our deaths to earn your sympathy... keep it, we chose life.

86 mojo  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:41:55am

Heinlein said it best:

"Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting."

87 Spunky MG  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:43:37am

And, while we're on the subject, why is it these peace twits, who claim to be so concerned with the poor oppressed Palestinian people, never take Arafat or the Palestinian Authority to task for their rank corruption, for the diversion of billions in international aid that could have been spent improving the lives of the people they claim to represent?

Could it possibly because it is, under most circumstances, safe to protest against democratic, humanitarian governments, like Israel's, whereas critics of the Palestinian Authority are jailed, tortured, and publicly executed?

There is nothing courageous about expressing dissent in a democracy where such dissent is a protected right. Nor is there anything courageous involved in supporting a regime that does not respect that right.

88 roach[deleted]  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:51:26am
89 Moral Police?  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:58:22am

Nobody wants to answer the question about Sharon ?

What about the IRA - when the US sponsored terrorism again the UK ??

Do you guys even have passports ??

90 Kylaer  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:59:43am

It's a pity that she died. Not because I regret a life lost while willingly defending terrorists, but because it's such bad press. The best outcome would have been to just jail her for a while (there are laws saying you can't interfere with the military in Israel, correct?).

I have to wonder, where were the soldiers guarding the bulldozer? There's no way that the IDF would have sent out a bulldozer alone, and it seems like they would have told the driver to stop while they dragged her out of the way. Maybe they thought she would jump out of the way at the last minute, but even that doesn't really sound plausible.

91 Kylaer  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:01:48pm

ARRRGH. You fools. Everyone was ignoring the troll so well, and now you've gone and fed him.

92 Black_Flag  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:02:57pm

I am a service veteran in a family that dates military service back six generations. This "activist" and everyone like her make me sick, I'll try not to get as venemous as I feel but I would like to point out a few discrepencies in the "story". The official knee-jerk report states she was trapped while climbing the debri being pushed by the dozer and run over twice.

There are images of two seperate dozers in those pictures.

The second showing a cut depth of at least 18" of earth.

If she had been cought in the earth being pushed at that depth she would have ended up in the pile, not somehow under the blade and then under the dozer.

These dozers have the power and tonnage to break up asphalt by merely riding on it. If she had been run over "twice" she would have been in pieces.

Had she even been run over one time by only one track they would have picked up her remains with a shovel.

Did I mention that routers stated to thier "group" that they werent interested in these people unless one of them was injured?

Wheres the body? Where are the interviews with her parents?

The whole story is a scam. The worst part is that she really didnt get run over for her stupidity and there are people who arent intelligent enough to see through the lie.

93 Grognard  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:06:32pm

re: 36 Glen Wishard
Actually, IIRC, in the book "Is Paris Burning?" there is a picture of a french kid throwing a rock at a German tank.

BTW: did anyone else notice this peace protestor? The caption reads:

An Indonesian Muslim protester points his toy gun to Ronald McDonald during an anti-war demonstration at a McDonald's restaurant in Jakarta, Wednesday, March 19, 2003. (AP Photo/Ade Irn)

I'm sure Corrie would approve of the sentiment, if not the method.

94 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:35:24pm

#89:

Nobody wants to answer the question about Sharon ?

Okey dokey. The difference is: Saddam Hussein has murdered about 1/4 million of his own people via the "security" apparatus of his fascist police state, and sent another 1/4 million or so to their deaths in his pointless wars of self-aggrandizement. Ariel Sharon is the elected leader of a democratic nation, who realizes that his nation is surrounded by thuggish regimes who are calling for the genocidal destruction of Israel. He takes appropriate measures in recognition of this fact.

What about the IRA - when the US sponsored terrorism again the UK ??

What about it? It's illegal under US law. Some people in this nation of 270 MM stupidly do so anyway. What's your point? (By the way, some people in YOUR country support the IRA, too.)

Do you guys even have passports ??

Ahh, there it is. The real money quote. Scratch the surface of a seemingly earnest type like Moral Police, and you find a dyed-in-the-wool snob. "Ugh, look at this website full of stupid American cowboys, who have never traveled to Europe, and don't even have passports!" Well, sorry to rain on your parade, MP, but yes, I have a passport, and have lived overseas for several years (including in your Sceptered Isle). And by the standards of LGF regulars, that probably makes me only mildly "international". So get over yourself.

95 Amy  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:39:18pm

#75 - whiner-

Look here: [Link: 216.239.51.100...]

Although many sources agree with you on the symbolism of spilling the drops of wine, I suspect that this interpretation is modern and arises out of the Reform movement's squeamishness with wholeheartedly celebrating the defeat of those who would do Jews harm.

My source, from the Jewish Theological Seminary, says that Ashkenazi Jews spill the wine to protect themselves symbolically against a recurrence of the plagues in the Messianic era; the plagues should strike our enemies and not us. We are warding off the curse.

I'm Ashkenazi and was raised "Conservadox"; maybe that's why I had never heard your interpretation before.

96 someone  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:41:00pm

piglet (#67): LOL! Classic.

97 Yehudit  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:51:54pm
From my personnal experiences, my liberal friends fall into two categories:

1) Don't read or follow "politics" or study the current issues.
2) Read only that material which supports their political and/or religious belief system.

Oh puleeze. This describes most conservatives too. Watch you don't break your arm patting yourself too hard.

98 EE  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:53:06pm

A young lady died in a tragic accident, and the question will arise concerning who is to blame.

Her parents share part of the blame for the way they presumably raised her. At Evergreen State College, they claim that she was already a radical when she entered Evergreen. Instead of mourning, her parents are now ranting on TV against Israel. The apple does not fall far from the tree; at least in this case, it seems.

Evergreen State College probably shares part of the blame. Prof. Niva, I think it is, who writes incendiary stuff against Israel, and calls it academic publication. I believe that this young lady probably received additional incitement from Evergreen. Then the students are told to practice what they learned. For their incitement, Evergreen should probably share part of the blame.

The International Solidarity Movement, which sends people to be human shields, deserves a lot of the blame. They apparently did not train the idiots that they send out in harms way.

The EU has sent 1/4 million Euros to stimulate opposition to the demolitions. Their funding has produced results.

It's tragic when a young person dies early. But those that incited, funded, and handled her pushed her into her situation.

Since her writings show that she admired the suicidal splodeydopes, maybe her recklessness was partly caused by her admiration of the splodeydopes.

99 whiner  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:54:16pm

#95 Amy, thanks for the source.

I don't know the origin of the intepretation that I mentioned, but I can tell you that I was raised in the Conservative movement.

I'm certainly familiar with the very different message of the "Ha lachma aniyah" paragraph.

When I was a kid, we had a seder each year with the family of my best friend. Coincidentally, he's now the son-in-law of your source from JTS. Ironically -- and unfortunately -- he has come out against war in Iraq.

100 whiner  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 12:58:39pm

#99 The "he" in "he has come out against war in Iraq" references the father-in-law, not the son-in-law.

101 Amy  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:05:43pm

#94 -

Another difference w/re the IRA is that individual citizens of the US contributed money (illegally), but it was never US government policy to support the IRA, as the troll suggests.

By contrast, it is the policy of Arab governments to support the terrorist Jew-killers, and a number of them supply the terrorists with weapons and money.

It is a favorite tactic of Israel-bashers to say, "Look at Sharon!" as if that (even if it were justified, which it isn't) somehow excuses blowing up busloads of children and executing elderly Holocaust survivors at a Seder.

Israel tried it Labor's way and got screwed royally. If the Arabs don't like Sharon, because he hits back hard, they have no one but themselves to blame for his being Prime Minister. If Arafat hadn't pulled the rug out from under Barak, Sharon would have had only the support of the extreme right wing parties. It is Arafat who killed the Israeli Labor party.

And the passport question. What a veddy, veddy European putdown. (Laughing through one's nose at this point is de rigeur.) This troll should really ask itself where the good Old World would be without American tourist dollars. All of those tourists need passports.

My right-wing inlaws used to say that no American who hasn't seen his or her own country should go spending American dollars abroad. I used to think that that was a silly thing to say, but now I'm not so sure... There's plenty of this huge country that I've never seen.

102 Amy  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:10:02pm

Whiner -

That is unfortunate, indeed! :-(

103 Yehudit  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:13:17pm

#95 - Amy, I grew up Conservative and I always learned that we spill the wine so our joy is not complete at the death of the Egyptian soldiers. I have never heard it interpreted any other way.

Another Conservative commentary:

Many of us are aware, for instance, of the midrashic reasoning underlying the practice of spilling drops from the second cup of wine at the Seder, commemorating the loss of Egyptian life instanced by our own redemption from slavery: in the Rabbinic text, God says to the Israelites singing the Song at the Sea (Exodus 15), "My children are drowning in the sea, and yet you are singing praises to Me?" Thus, we diminish the overflowing cup of wine, a symbol of unadulterated joy.

(Read the whole thing - very interesting conversation between God and Moses on killing.)

Here and here and here are Orthodox sites supporting this interpretation.

104 Ben F  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:14:24pm

#37 Peter:

ISM may have cleaned up their website, but they left up this page on Freedom Summer 2002: Fifty-four (54) days of non-violent, direct actions by Palestinians and Internationals to promote freedom and justice for Palestine - one day to symbolize each year that Palestinians have lived under occupation. 2002 minus 54 equals 1948.

And ISM says here that they "recognize the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" and "support the Palestinian right to resist the occupation, as provided for by International Law." So ISM is still very up front that they support the right of Palestinians to use force to roll back the 1948 "occupation."

I shudder to think what the site was like before it was sanitized.

Oh, according to this page, ISM is treated as a 501c (tax-exempt) organization under the U.S. tax code.

So #3 Mike Silverman, the difference between Rachel Corrie and John Walker Lindh is that the U.S. Government prosecutes people who give aid to the Taliban or Al Qaeda, but so far is steering clear of "nonviolent" supporters of Palestinian terrorism. I am not going to hold my breath waiting for the indictments of Rachel Corrie's colleagues, and I don't recommend that you do so either.

105 Ranbutan  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:15:26pm

#80 Moral Police

Post 9/11 there was a real feeling around the world (I'm British) - that we would stand shoulder to shoulder with you guys (and not just the Brits - everyone - even the French!)

- but that feeling is ebbing away so fast - in mnay countries it's gone already - Germany/France and Russia for example. In the UK this feeling is now maybe 45% of the population.

Why ????

If you remember, America and the World was wallowing in victimhood post 9/11...it was a maudlin mourathon to end all weepfests as the greatest hero deaths - the nobel bond traders, the oblivious firemen ignorant of the danger but bravely herding lemminglike in the WTC..the real heroes of Flight 93.....The US Flooded
with sympathy cards worldwide, contributions amounting to a million dollars plus to make CLOSURE happen....

Yep, those were the days.

And do you know why Europe changed?

Because we started doing something about it. Snaggling Muslim terrorists as the civil liberties crowds peed in their pants. Went into Afghanistan while the Lefties cried of innocent Afghani babies, unending cycles of violence, invicible Afghan warriors, and the wrath of the mighty Arab street. (If we had only negotiated with the Taliban, we'd still be negotiating and the same Lefties would be urging patience...since we were negotiating with Saddam Hussein 12 years +). Then we went with the idea of disarming a guy who has defied 17 UN sanctions to disarm and the Euros started their neurotic brittle old lady act.

British priests, the supreme multi cultis and biggest milksops on the planet..begain wailing about "just war". Then Euros with a worship of Kofi Annan and other African Statesmen like Mugabe, Tutu, and Mandela and the UN "all nations under equality" romantic gibberish asserted the UN in it's collective wisdom must decide all matters pertaining to British or American security.

Why go on? Dozens of other bits of lunacy happened, but lets just look at just a few instances of "just war" and UN insanity from Euros.

1. One of the milksops in a collar said that it is illegal to shoot first...that going after Al Qaeda was justified, but not the Taliban or Iraq because the "hadn't" initiated cause for war by shooting first. When the Euro idiot was asked if it was moral for a police officer to shoot a deranged criminal who refused to drop a gun - the priest said that since war killed imany nnocents that the standard was higher....and BTW no cop should shoot unless the gun was pointed directly at them with clear intent. That was a UK pacifist priest/fool.

2. The UN? The "collective wisdom" we saw from that august body of enlightened nations? Lets start with Mexico haggling to make America pledge to make 3 million Mexicans that snuck into our country automatic citizens. Add in China, enjoying the ride while it pays vitually no dues and never sends people on peacekeeping missions. Germany saying Nein Nein Nein. French and US bribe money flowing all over the security council. My favorite of all was the Brits thinking they had the nobel, wise nation of Guinea locked up, while France put some 30 million euros in the Cameroonian leaders Swiss Bank accounts so we lost them. Then the French got word that Guinea's witch doctor advisor to the President had reported bad omens from the smoke plume, and Guinea was waffling...leading to de Villepin's whirlwind tour to Africa's 3 vital nations that could determine the Iraq decision... to convince Guinea the witch doctor was correct...the Brits following on his heels to try and bribe the Angolans and Guinea's leader...and possibly outbribe the existing French Cameroonian bribe. Also, to seek to have Mandela and Tutu revoke past senile mutterings.

Witch doctors!!! The fate of the world may change with Iraq, where we go with WMD threats....and the "Authority" of the UN came down to France and Britain arguing with a fucking witch doctor!!!

Yes, the US diplomacy was lame....but France played such a sleazy dupliciyous role that they made the involved petty Africa dictatorships the world was licking the boots of for the right opinion at the right price look good by contrast.

So Moral Police.....hold onto your panties and see how Iraq, the UK, the US, France, and the Great Voice of the World - the UN - looks when the dust settles.

106 Ariel  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:20:57pm

(Im)Moral Police #89,

I'll take a crack as well.

Nobody wants to answer the question about Sharon ?

Sharon is a democratically elected leader of a population that has suffered from more terrorism in two years then any country in its entire history. The populace probably elected him having seen the dismal failure of the Labor Oslo "peace" process.

Sharon is not even on the same order of magnitude of evil as Arafat, Saddam, etc. Otherwise you would never see pictures of live kids throwing rocks at tanks. They would be scared shitless of them being his next victim.

If you ask me, Sharon is a little too wimpy. But he has to be, for reasons of some international politics.

What about the IRA - when the US sponsored terrorism again the UK ??

It wasn't the US government, even if nincompoops like Ted Kennedy were 100% behind it. Still, I think it was a horrible thing to do, and the individuals who did so should have been sought out and arrested.

Do you guys even have passports ??

Yes, and mine is almost out of space. How is yours? Probably pretty empty now that you don't need to get a stamp in most of the EU, eh? F*cking European superio(u)rity complex... why do I feel like I've heard this sort of thing before?

I've been to just about every country in Western Europe, quite a few all over Asia, some in the Middle East, a few in Africa, and a smattering in Latin America. I've also been to Canada.

107 Yehudit  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:35:26pm

I wrote about Corrie here, noting that even Amira Hass - Israeli journalist who has devoted her career to advocating for the Palestinians - has criticized the various international solidarity groups for claiming to be "peace activists" while refusing to publicly condemn suicide bombings.

I don't blame Corrie's parents for blaming the Israelis. They are parents, she was their daughter, they are grief-stricken, they are human. Leave them alone. I will be deeply ashamed if any Jews try to harass them. (But if they indeed got a letter from Arafat I hope they publicly disavow it, and I hope they get a condolence visit from some Israeli official.)

108 Glen Wishard  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:52:13pm

EE -

At Evergreen State College, they claim that she was already a radical when she entered Evergreen.

Evergreen State College does not offer majors and does not grade its students. Instead it offers "interdisciplinary" seminars with titles like "Blood, Iron, and Oil". Yuppie larvae get together and share their feelings in a "collaborative" teaching environment.

Of course, when the diet consists of negative and one-sided politicism, this happy little Play Skool turns into a school for hate, as bad as any Wahhabi mosque.

109 miguel  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 1:56:36pm

Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
Section III. Occupied territories

Art. 53. Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.


Bulldozers knocking down houses, water pumps and mosques is a WAR CRIME. Even the Chinese didn't dare to run over the guy in front of the tanks at Tiananmen Square. No matter what terrorists do, a lawful state can't respond like this. Sharon is a criminal.

110 Amy  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 2:08:17pm

#103 - Thanks, Yehudit.
When I was a kid, my uncle, a professor of Judaic studies, led the seders. He never mentioned this interpretation, either. But I certainly acknowledge its validity.

#105 -
Omigosh - I find myself agreeing with Ranbutan again! Good answer to the obviously rhetorical and self-serving question, "Why is Europe in a snit with America when everyone was indulging in an orgy of pity and solidarity only a year and a half ago?"

As if it's American's fault that the Europeans (among others) are so easily turned aside from their track.

As if the Europeans' "solidarity" was anything but the shallowest sort of self-inflicted frisson which one experiences when one feels that one has had a narrow escape from one's neighbor's grisly fate.

As if that outpouring of sympathy substitutes for standing with the US when it really counts.

The questioner should get off his high horse before he gets knocked off it.

111 Ariel  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 2:21:39pm

miguel #109,

Did you read the part of the 4th GC that you quoted? Here's the relevant part for you again:

except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.

Guess what? Smuggling of arms across a border makes it absolutely necessary to make that smuggling more difficult. Sending children to explode on Israeli buses makes it absolutely necessary to destroy the homes of the criminals who get a benefit from the Saudi and Saddamite "martyrdom" payments.

I know you can't find an example of a bulldozer knocking over a mosque or a water pump. So don't even bother trying.

If Sharon is a war criminal, Arafat is a billion war criminals. Arafat violates just about every single term of every convention governing human rights every day. If you want to convict Sharon of being a war criminal, to be consistent, don't you think you should start with the bigger fish first?

112 john  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 3:16:03pm

Aren't we done with this silly bitch yet?

There's a war on folks.

113 steve miller  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 3:20:01pm

Ariel, Ariel, Ariel - Miguel will never come around again. He found that clip somewhere and pasted it here, sniggering at his moral purity.

You don't think Miguel and his ilk actually read the stuff they quote, do you? I mean, they do it for the fun of it.

One mustn't expect a troll to think.

Oh, Miguel, in case you drop by again (maybe your handlers let you browse the Internet all by yourself!)...

GAZE

114 alexbmn  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 3:57:12pm

We are richer for lost her.

115 alexbmn  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 4:00:58pm

damn

it should have been

"we are richer for having lost her."

116 Caton  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 4:02:25pm

#115 alexbmn

Both are wrong. That's no loss. Really.

117 nik  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 4:42:03pm

#112 Amen.

Anti-aircraft fire in Baghdad. Started 10 seconds ago.

118 nik  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 4:43:21pm

Nik Robertson reporting from Baghdad.

:)

119 Frank IMC  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 4:44:22pm

The only loser here is Satan, who has to put up with her hysterical ranting for eternity.

120 Ariel  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 4:50:05pm

steve miller #113,

Yes, seems unlikely. But it struck as a very particular kind of troll - one which hadn't even read part of his post. So I felt obligated to say something.

121 Ranbutan  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 6:13:11pm

#109 - Ah please, Miguel! If you are going to charge war crimes you have to start with the initiating unlawful combatants who hijacked jets, murdered Olympians, killed children, and targeted one of the other sides highest religious ceremonies and killed 30+ beloved elders of a community during their Seder.

But you never did, Ey....Miguelo??

Only the response, when tunnelers bearing C4 for attacks are removed by blasting, when a suicide bomber killing 20 Jewish teens in a suicide disco attack has his cheering ululating mothers joy cut short as her home is brought to rubble.

Like the Seder attack...might you be a tad miffed if Jews set off a huge nail bomb in the midst a Ramadan feast...or even dared...and you know they have the ability and skills....even to cause similar thousands of deaths in the Haj to Mecca???

Before you bellyache about Jew terror....straighten out your own logic of cause and effect. And, don't give me the drivel that the cheerleading squad of the Intifada is divorced from their "heroes" actions.

I say this as someone who is viscerally opposed to the Zionist Colonies.

But when you see Pals doing precipitating War Crimes with total "Miguel" silence ensuing the Pal butchery.....then call the Israeli occupier's response even if it is a non-lethal destruction of the murderer's cimplicit family or supportive friends homes...I'll put it simply....

I have no respect for your selective morality.

Before you criticize the Israelis...ensure you go back to the initiating event and culprits for condemnation...otherwise you are simply a bendover punk for radical Islamists.

122 JOEY  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 6:26:42pm

What a pisk! Enough hate in one face for an army.

At least now noone can be subjected to the horrors that marriage to that zealot might might bring.

123 zulubaby  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 9:26:17pm

Ratchel is remembered by Palestinian schoolchildren.

Her parents must be so proud.

124 Chana  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 10:26:03pm

Someone earlier (ulf?) asked me for examples of "peace activists" spying for terrorists:

This is from a journalist I know:

"last May 31, a group of these "activists" wrote on their e-mail that they had outsmarted the security people at Karmei Tzur and taken pictures of the perameters of Karmei Tzur. The next day, they bragged that they met with the Fateh people in Bethlehem to report to them about the settlement expansion in Karmei Tzur. A few days later, Fateh infiltrators invaded Karmei Tzur and murdered a young couple in their bed, along with a young soldier."

Is that specific enough?

These people are being funded by the New Israel Fund, the Ford Foundation, EU, etc.

125 Watcher  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 10:27:55pm
126 Moral Polie  Wed, Mar 19, 2003 11:03:23pm

#105 - You did something about it ??
What have you achieved ?? Zippo pal - many people (myself included) would say you are even making the problem worse


Sharon - there is none so blind - I was naive to expect you to take an objective look. Let's not lie to each other here - we all know wha this man is capable of and has done.

IRA - you conceed that many americans were 'supporting' these terrorists.
Well how about applying the same argument as you do with Corrie (they all deserve to die!) ? - I hope we agree that this is going too far ?

- or maybe your line on those who harbour and aid terrorism as in Afganistan means the UK should have dropped a few bombs on Washington ? - of course not - because the UK and the US talk! Isn't talking great - if only we could do that with all these countries......

Passports - yes this is a common dig at Americans - your preseident is the epitomy (and don't pretend you don't get it)
But it's a deeper crticism - you may have visited many countries, but have you appreciated them and their people for what they are. Get to understand the differences - learn that you are not always right - nor that you can always understand.

The US is currently the most hated (and the most loved nation in the world) - what are you doing about addressing hate? Killing all the people that hate you ? (isn't that one of the things Sadam does?)

127 Amy  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 3:45:05am

Moral Polie [sic] -

Pray do tell us what Sharon has done personally. We don't "all know." As for what he's allegedly "capable of," you are representing your own wild speculations as fact. Bad idea.

The fact is that Sharon hasn't done a lot of things that he could do, such as carpet-bombing Gaza and the West Bank, or expelling all of the Palestinians once and for all, or stripping Israeli Arabs of their citizenship and expelling them, too. Gee, that last option was exactly what the Arab countries did to their Jewish populations after 1948, and the world looked the other way while Israel quietly absorbed them. But you don't care about that, do you. It's so unfashionable these days to care about what happens to Jews.

Sharon has done none of these things. And what he has done (targeted assassinations of terrorists planning attacks, arrests of terrorists, destruction of terrorists' homes, destruction of terrorists' arms-smuggling tunnels, preventing terrorists from entering Israel to attack Israelis, etc.) has been quite effective. For every attack that succeeds, hundreds are prevented.

And then pray tell us what Arafat and his murderous Arab minions and fellow travelers have done personally.

And then do us all a favor and shut up.

As for "talking" to "all these countries," if you think that talking to SoDamn Insane or any of the other Middle Eastern dictatorships and mad mullahs would accomplish anything whatsoever, you're even more deluded than you have already demonstrated yourself to be.

128 Caton  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 3:50:44am

#124 Chana

More than specific enough. Do you know where I can rent a D-9 for a short visit to the ISM people?

129 David  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 3:52:11am

Who and what killed Rachel Corrie?

My thanks to some of you, who helped me research a summary I have compiled here:

[Link: www.dvsgames.com...]

130 Ariel  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 4:37:17am

(Im)Moral Polie [sic] #126,

I presume you were talking to me, though you message seems to have been misnumbered.

Amy has pretty much tackled what I would have said about Sharon. On any conceivable scale, Arafat is far worse then Sharon. Just as an example, the EU is one of Arafat's major backers now - but Arafat has a long history of striking in Europe, which is largely a neutral third party (e.g. Munich). You can't find an example of Sharon committing terrorist attacks in the US because there isn't one.

You might also note that the PLO and the IRA train together; both the PLO and the IRA are enemies of civilization.

IRA - you conceed that many americans were 'supporting' these terrorists.


Well how about applying the same argument as you do with Corrie (they all deserve to die!) ?

I personally didn't apply that argument. For the sake of argument however, I would note that there is a difference between financial support and what Ms. Corrie did. Financial supporters of the PLO and the IRA should be jailed. If there was a woman who got in the way of the British-backed Northern Irish police while they were doing a counter-terrorism operation against the IRA and the woman happened to be killed, I probably wouldn't have too many tears to spare on her.

because the UK and the US talk! Isn't talking great - if only we could do that with all these countries

Sure, talking is wonderful. But, at some point, if your concerns aren't being addressed, the talking needs to stop. Chamberlain and friends believed that they could talk a monomaniacal dictator into stopping his expansionism at Munich. If there's one big lesson of history, it's that talking with monomaniacal dictators is generally a losing proposition.

But it's a deeper crticism - you may have visited many countries, but have you appreciated them and their people for what they are. Get to understand the differences - learn that you are not always right - nor that you can always understand.

Well, given that I largely grew up in Japan (9 of my first 18 years of life), I think you might have difficulty applying this argument to me. Given that I was raised in a very pro-European household, where my Moroccan mother always taught me that France was the apex of civilization (a legacy of colonialism), you might have difficulty applying this argument to me. (On an aside, both my mother and I have come around on the France issue.) Given that I was generally one of the folks who understood the plusses and minuses of European vs Asian vs American culture, thanks to my exposure to all of them, you might have difficulty applying this argument to me. I actually had a really long phase of anti-Americanism, much of what many here (now including me) oppose.

OTOH, I have worked extensively with many Europeans, both in Europe and in the US. And while many have passports, few have lost the historical conviction of there way being the right and only way. Many still live under the delusion that they are the great powers of the world. Witness, for example, Chiraq's assertion that the heads of Eastern European states who backed the US should have taken that opportunity to shut up. I've never heard of an American president doing such a thing.

131 Moral Police  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 5:16:41am

#130

I'm not defending Arafat (so why compare the two?). Are you saying we should not jail a murderer because there are other murderes out there that we have not yet caught ?

If you don't know the accusations and evidence against Sharon - you clearly have not looked at enough of the argument to gain a balanced opinion.

It's not fashionable to hate Jews - but I think there is a mood out there that we have had enough of the bitching about 'how bad it's been all my life'. For the record I have lots of Jewish friends - it's attitudes people don't like and they come in different shapes and sizes.

IRA/PLO

If there was a woman who got in the way of the British-backed Northern Irish police while they were doing a counter-terrorism operation against the IRA and the woman happened to be killed, I probably wouldn't have too many tears to spare on her.

That's fine - no tears is up to you (and I would probably feel the same) - but take a read on what else has been written here by a lot of the posters and it's ugly and offensive.

It's a shame that you had the chance but never enjoyed the diverse cultures in your childhood - and apparently not learnt anything from it - why was that ?

BTW - what do you recon to
[Link: www.awolbush.com...]

132 Ariel  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 5:48:47am

Moral Police #131,

I'm not defending Arafat (so why compare the two?).

Because, you, like most critics of Israel, seem to disproportionately favor criticism of Sharon.

Are you saying we should not jail a murderer because there are other murderes out there that we have not yet caught ?

Of course not. Would I be opposed to the police focusing on a clear cut case of serial mass murder with tons of evidence (analogous to Arafat) instead of trying to use conspiracy theory type "evidence" which may indicate that some folks who were friends with a guy decided to go on a murder spree (analogous to Sharon)? No. (As an aside, note that I did not say that Sharon was an accessory -in any sense- to murder.)

Sharon, unlike Arafat, is the democratically elected ruler of his people. Sharon, unlike Arafat, has never targeted children. Sharon, unlike Arafat, has never committed terrorism against his major state sponsors. I could go on.

If you don't know the accusations and evidence against Sharon - you clearly have not looked at enough of the argument to gain a balanced opinion.

I know the accusations. I also know the "evidence". If you would care to be specific, I would be happy to refute your arguments.

It's not fashionable to hate Jews

BULLSHIT. It was quite fashionable for the French ambassador to the UK to say that Israel is shitty, little country about to provoke a world war (paraphrase). Nary a titter was heard at the dinner party where he said this.

For the record I have lots of Jewish friends

Of course you do. Critics of Israel all have lots of Jewish friends.

but take a read on what else has been written here by a lot of the posters and it's ugly and offensive.

I did take a read. But you assumed that I agreed with them when I made no indication of having done so.

Just as with the made-up IRA story, I have no sympathy whatsoever for this lady. She sided with terrorists and deserved her fate - she was interfering with a military operation. I don't glory in her death, but I wouldn't even say it was regrettable, except in that it appears to be a propaganda victory for the PLO. Get in the way of counterterrorist operations and you might die. That's the end of the story.

It's a shame that you had the chance but never enjoyed the diverse cultures in your childhood - and apparently not learnt anything from it - why was that ?

Actually, I did enjoy the diverse cultures I lived in and learned a damn lot from them. I'm really surprised that you could even make this statement after having read my post. I'm not one of the people who believes that the US is 100% right in every single way - but I have come to believe that the US is more right in more ways then most other countries. And, unlike more provincial folks, I have the firsthand experience to back it up.

As to Bush going AWOL, I haven't got the foggiest clue about it. When I see it at a reputable site, perhaps I'll care to comment.

133 Moral Police  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 6:11:05am

#132
On the subject of jumping to conclusions - For the record - I'm not anti Israel, anti Jews or pro Arrafat (as you seem to assert)

On the Jewish thing - you are doing exactly what I mentioned - assuming I'm criticizing you. It's like a black guy thinking that everyone is out to get him - when really we dont give a toss - the only ones who care about it are the Jews!

I do not assume you agree or disagree with the posters - my comments are specifically directed to posters each and every time.

- but for the record perhaps now is a good time for you to flick up the list and find one or two you disagree with (except mine) ? In the words of Bush 'show your cards'.

134 EW1(SG)  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 6:22:05am
#103 Yehudit says: ...Amy, I grew up Conservative and I always learned that we spill the wine so our joy is not complete at the death of the Egyptian soldiers. I have never heard it interpreted any other way.


I've never heard any other interpretation either, though as you and Free Radical know, I only "audited the course."

Ariel, I admire your energy but that is one ignorant bone headed son of bitch calling itself "Moral Polie." Its so mired in its stereotypes that I would be surprised if it could honestly tell you what color the sky is.

135 Ariel  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 6:32:09am

Moral Police #132,

Some posters I disagree with:

Mike Silverman #3:

As far as I am concerned, the only difference between Rachel Corrie and John Walker (the "American Taliban") is that Corrie was easier on the eyes.

I don't think she's easier on the eyes, except in that she's female. I'm not attracted to the harpy type.

Jack Shiraldi #14:

I agree, except for:

I will celebrate the demise of my enemy.

That makes me a little uncomfortable. Celebrating victory is fine, but celebrating death reminds me a bit too much of the "palestinians".

That was all I could find in the first 20 posts.

On the Jewish thing - you are doing exactly what I mentioned - assuming I'm criticizing you.

What are your allusions to criticism of Sharon then? You refuse to even specify what about Sharon is wrong.

While you're at it, you could respond to any of my statements in #132.

136 Ariel  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 6:34:09am

EW1(SG),

I'm not completely sure - he kind of reminds me of the British guy who worked at the BBC who was posting here for a couple of days. After a little while, he was partially convinced - it takes a while to work at the BBC's indoctrination.

I was hoping to see you here. Whatever your mission is, I hope that it succeeds beyond all expectations. Best of luck there.

137 Rocky  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 6:41:14am

Is this what you do when your a peace activist? Here's a little from her memorial service that her friends held for her. At the bottom of the page there are pictures of her ISM friends deciding to go after a tank now instead of a dozier..........

"A small monument was placed at the site where she fell, next to which mourners placed flowers among the wasteland of ruined buildings.

Although the Israeli Army of Occupation had been notified of the memorial service beforehand, a tank arrived 15 minutes into the ceremony and attempted to disrupt the mourners by blanketing them in a thick white smokescreen. In response, some of the activists and Palestinians placed flowers and posters of Rachel on the tank and one activist even managed to climb on top of it and lift the lid to drop one of the posters into it."


there's some things you just don't do!
[Link: groups.yahoo.com...]

138 Ariel  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 6:51:57am

Rocky #137,

Interestingly enough, the ISM folks post their phone numbers in that message. I hope they don't get any nasty calls or anything...

139 EW1(SG)  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 9:59:56am

#136 Ariel: I suppose there is always hope, but it doesn't sound promising.

Unfortunately, I'm too old to play in the field anymore and have to content myself with building spiffy new gadgets for the youngsters who have replaced me. If I can't have the satisfaction of watching over them personally, at least I can make them more dangerous.

140 Caton  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 10:08:13am

#139 EW1(SG)

Getting old sucks, huh?

I hope none of those overeager kids makes a Rachel Corrie-sized mistake and gets himself killed...

141 EW1(SG)  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 11:26:38am

#140 Caton: LOL! Actually, I am only slightly older than you. Unfortunately, in a fit of pique at a former CINC, I allowed my enlistment in the reserve lapse and the deadline for me to reenlist has passed.

I hope none of those overeager kids makes a Rachel Corrie-sized mistake and gets himself killed...

Indeed. Which is why I regret not being there to keep an eye on 'em...

142 Caton  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 11:32:06am

#141 EW1(SG)

Which is why I regret not being there to keep an eye on 'em...

Exactly. Those kids are just as stupid as we were at their age. We resented being watched by older, experienced NCOs -- at least I did --, but it probably saved our lives.

143 The Rob  Thu, Mar 20, 2003 4:24:42pm

The whole photo is pretty comedic. All the kids look pretty calm - a few look a little confused. Meanwhile, in the center we have this deranged looking woman with a look of angry rapture on her face, like this was what she always dreamed of doing. The fact of her being an American trying to instruct a crowd of bewildered-looking Arabs on hating America makes the whole thing weirder.

I have to say that the image does stay with me.

144 M.J.  Fri, Mar 21, 2003 8:26:20am

Good riddance. I don't see how hatred coming from people like Ratchael Corrie is any better than hatred coming from anyone else. Hatred is hatred, killing is killing. She might've believed her cause was just, but no cause in the world is worth blowing up a bus full of kids, or justifying such actions. She got what she deserved, and I hope everyone else like her will one day.

145 EE  Fri, Mar 21, 2003 12:31:53pm

Rachel Corrie's Death Wish
by Irwin N. Graulich
[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

146 Frank IMC  Sun, Mar 23, 2003 12:57:03pm

I think the kid in the upper right hand corner is remembering the the unexpurgated (sp) verses from "Barnacle Bill The Sailor", which she taught him.


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