What is that black banner in the second photo?

Ground zero on the assult on western civilization.

What does Palestine have to do with Iraq, aside from Saddam giving some pretty nice paychecks to families that raise suicide bombers? Are they afraid that if Saddam falls there will suddenly be a severe suicide-bomber shortage? And if that happens and there aren't dozens of Palestinians trying to swarm into Israel with explosive belts, how will we ever get the Peace Process back on track?

Hmmm, sponsored by Muslim Association of Britain, where under "war photos" they show pictures of "die ins" to make it look like that was a result of the war.

It also has a link with Friends of Al Aksa, which claims that Palestine consists of what is now all of Israel. It also likes to claim that Canaanites were Palestinians.

Thick as thieves these terrorists are...

#1, I believe this may be the Black September version of the traditional green flag of islam (and Saudi Arabia) with the legend "The is no god but god and mohamed is his messenger".

The BBC report on the anti-war marches opened with the reporter talking to the camera, with several dozen men chanting "Allahu Akbar!"

Spoke volumes.

correction to # 5 "There, not "The

Heck, I thought theses pictures came from Cairo or something. Duh, the flying shoes are missing.

Question

What distinguishes Palestinians culturally from any other Arab culture?

No BS or anything or any anti-Arab stuff...etc.

Hey protestors...

#5

Thanks

who the hell paid for all those signs??

Everything is obvious now - Europe is really a sick place...

Also in Sweden the streets are filled with shouting leftwing-fascists, nazi-admirers and Arabs, Arabs and more Arabs (with their Iraqi and Pali flags).

This day I wish I would have been born at least in Denmark...

The true forces of western civilization has ALL my support!

G-d bless You!

To Our Troops - Charlie Daniels
...
Does it matter to them that five thousand children a month starve to death in Iraq? Or that Saddam has people shredded in plastic shredders like a piece of thrown away paper or that he has little children tortured by his goons, or that he has men’s wives raped in their prescence, or that he has ruined the economy of a country which could be modern and prosperous, or that him and his chosen few live in royal luxury while the people of Iraq starve?

They say, well it hasn’t been proven to me that he has weapons of mass destruction.

Well just hang on y'all. The day is fast approaching when you will see the evidence that Saddam does have weapons of mass destruction, and I just hope that you’ll have the decency to thank the men and women in uniform who kept them from being used on you.

Thank you troops. You do America proud.

#12

where the hell are those environmental whackos when you need them? How many trees did they kill to make these signs? Think of the trees!

"Let this be a symbol of how we totally hate innocent people"

"I agree"

#1

I think that means something like "zulfkiar" or Sword of Islam

The idiots are out in force today in NY as well. Even if Osama himself took the stage and started shouting "Death to infidels," they still wouldn't get it.

I am ashamed to be a New Yorker on this day.

O.T. but Peter Jenning's performance on Friday's 20/20 was vile. His "interview" with a couple of protesters was the journalistic equivalent of soft-core porn. After that display, Barbara Walters talked with a group of Iraqi women who are now living in the U.S. The women told of the horrors that they and their families had suffered within Iraq. When the program returned to the obligatory post-video studio chat, Jennings could not let this powerful piece go un-slimed. He looks at Walters, and the first thing he says is that he thinks that what the women said is "70% realized." So they are only 30% liars? Peter Jennings is a dishonest, craven, piece of filth.

PS - I saw (from my window) a bunch of high school kids marching down the street towards the protest. You just know that their 60's leftover "teachers" are encouraging this nonsense.

Remember, they're anti-war, NOT pro-Saddam.

Let's not forget that Peter Jenings has been know to "sleep with the enemy".

http://www.smolanim.com/articles/jennings.html

#9, Jacob. Not much culturally, a lot more socially and a whole lot more psychologically, paranoia seems to be a primary personality trait rather than an aberation. A useful primer is a readily available book called "The Arab Mind" recently revised,get the latest edition,google for author or check Amazon.

Does anyone have an M42 that I can borrow for a couple of hours?

A useful primer is a readily available book called "The Arab Mind"

I guess it's a fairly thin book? ;)

To No. 9

Some answers to your question that are the words of Arab authorities themselves:

1. "There is no such country as Palestine. "Palestine" is alien to us. It is the Zionists who invented it."
Arab leader testimony to the Peel Commission, 1937

2. "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not."
by Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian.

3. "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria" - ambassador of Saudi Arabia to UN, 1956

Lots more quotes on that line from Arabs themselves. Some of them admit out and out that they invented "Palestine" only as a ploy to get sympathy against the Jews.

#21 -- Good catch. I was wondering when Saddam's face would join Che's.

#9 Jacob

Most other Arab groups have a fairly consistent history going back to the time of the original Conquest; that is to say that their cultures are several hundred, up to 1400 years old. Except for enforced population mixing caused by the various internecine struggles, Turkish hegemony, and various European adventures, these cultures have remained largely cohesive, defined by nuance of dialect and political/religious regime/descent, and a wee bit by dress and cuisine.

The "palestinians" have no such distinctive identity. They are overwhelmingly (plus 90%) a hodgepodge of disparate Arab and Muslim itinerant groups who congregated in the area between the turn of the century and the late '30's. Indeed, by the history of their own claims alone, the 'nation' of 'palestinians', as such, did not appear on the world stage until 1967, (or 1964 if one countenances Arafat the Egyptian as 'representative' of this melange), subsequent to the Israeli take-over of Yesha by defensive war.

Of course, the fact that this "peoplehood" have a 36 year history on the planet will not interfere with them being given a 'homeland' by the USA and EU and Russia and UN (Quartet), in the very near future. Nor will it factor meaningfully in the decisions to attempt to expel Israelis (Jews) from their ancestral lands (3000 years), and prevent these Jews from ever living in these areas, for the sake of "World Peace".

Who SAYS Terrorism doesn't Pay!! :-)

Wait for It.

C-Span. Live. Veterans Against The Iraqi War holding a public forum.

Vietnam War Era veterans are making analogies between Nam War and today's Iraqi War.

To my fellow veterans from that era:

You need to bone up on your current events and recent world studies plus study recent modern American political and military strategy in an era of international terrorism. Philosophy, feelings and opinions are not enough. Remember what our drill sergeants had told us? "Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one." Though crudely presented, some of those non-coms pocessed pearls of wisdom

I do not mean this as an insult.

The anti-war movement this time around is dead wrong.

To those veterans who are against the war in Iraq, I am willing to discuss and debate the issues any time, any where with civility and knowledge as our only weapons.

You can contact me on these postings.
Just ask for ray. Ray with a small "r"

26 Clio, like this one:

“There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity in contrast to Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity.”

-Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977

#22 Phil, you stole my thunder!

Speaking of outrageous "peace" protests, I can't find an online link to this story but yesterday in Montreal keffiyeh-wearing protesters burned the American flag!!! World peace and harmony - for everyone except the Americans. Can anyone doubt that if you stood among them waving an American flag you'd be beat up instantaneously?

And another thing... If I have to see one more trite slogan like "Iraqis love their children too" (which may I say is precisely why they want Saddam deposed), I will scream.

#13

Left-wing facists is an oxymoron- Facisim is an ideology of right wingers. That is why Hitler hated the Soviet Union.

#23 & #26

Thanks!

# 12

who the hell paid for all those signs??

the tax payers of britain- as here, most of these people are surviving on the good will of their host countries. Dont believe me? think that's racist?

consider this, why do almost all of them have jobs/businesses that are "cash and carry"? little stores (the till, who knows how much is really comming in and going out?) taxi cabs - same. I know not a few personal directors of some decent size corporations, they all seem to agree, these people don't last long (at least in entry level jobs) a few days, a few weeks. then off they go, somewhere else.

I sincerely believe this is why America's schools are broke - too many languages being taught, not enough revenue from these people to pay for it. Here they live in "low income housing"- read section 8 tax payer subsidized housing which is not only payed for by the US tax payer, but is usually not on the tax rolls, or given significant tax advantages ( charged 1/10th the normal rate)

In other words, they have the ability to do this because of the indulgences of the tax paying "hosts" of the countries they are in.

bah. weenies. and thats being fluffy-bunny nice of me, too.

OT- Hey, my band is playing at the local Free Souls MC club tonight. A lot of them are vets. We love playing for these guys. Tonight i'll be wearing my (korean war era) US Army 2nd Armor division shirt (Hell on Wheels) that my friends father gave me, in support for our guys overseas, and we'll be dedicating Metallica's "Seek & Destroy" for the same guys. Especially the 82nd airborne, the 2nd Armor Division and the 181st Infantry. I'm not even sure if all of them are deployed (anyone know a site where you can see which units have gone?), but it doesn't matter. I have cousins and a couple of friends who are getting ready to go or are already there.

I really tried to get the rest of the band to learn "Rock the Casbah", but no luck.

It's ok, they been watched by MI5.

hey check out this victory lap.

Everyone who has those quotes...is there a site where those quotes are documented?

Jacob (#32) I'm not sure how else to describe a group of people who think Stalin was a good man besides as "fascists". The far left and far right are one and the same anymore. Thats why you can go to Indymedia and read rantings that used to belong almost exclusively to the neo-nazi crowd.

take a look a this protester!

Scary

doh, thats 182nd infantry, but heck, well send a shout out for teh 181st, too.

#19:

I doubt it is any coincidence that Peter Jennings is Canadian.

TIN FOILTIN FOIL HAT PROTEST!!

Meanwhile, up to 1,000 people gathered at the US military base at Menwith Hill, in North Yorkshire.

The rally was held up as more crowds were still arriving at the countryside base.

Menwith Hill has the job of picking up communications from satellites covering the Middle East and is the largest electronic monitoring station in the world.

The US base won an award for its eavesdropping in the last Gulf War and protesters today launched a "foil the base" protest.

Hundreds of the peace protesters gathered clad in tin foil which they hope will cause havoc with the centre's high-tech satellite equipment.

Neil Kingsnorth, from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said he believed the gathering was the biggest ever seen at the controversial base in the last 10 years.

SUBMISSION CLUT OF FALSE DISSENT!!!
my new term.

#23 gymnast

Yes, great suggestion: - The Arab Mind by Raphael Patai - to which one can add on the bookshelf the many works of Bernard Lewis and of course the classic From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters (available at wnd.com)

The "Problem" is that Israel, contra common assumptions, is NOT a 'healthy democracy', but a rather social fascist oligarchy controlled to a huge degree by Stalinist internationalist Leftists, who represent only 20% of the Israeli population. Hence, the average Israeli has NO VOICE, (except on election day), in what will happen to his/her country, as no "elected" Knesset member or member of the Executive Branch in Israel is actually ACCOUNTABLE to the electorate, except as said, on election day.

95% of supporters of the Israeli State DO NOT UNDERSTAND this fact. It's too bad. Tragic, really.

Witness Dr. Paul Eidelberg, a recent posting presenting a first step for opposing making the country again 9 miles wide: -

"Back in June 1996, a Gallup poll indicated that 68% of the Israel public think a law should be passed to require Knesset ratification of peace agreements, while 25% think such a law is unnecessary.
(There is no current legal requirement for Knesset ratification. Although virtually all Governments submit treaties to the Knesset, Knesset “approval” is automatic given the Government’s control of the Knesset majority.)
The poll also asked all those who favored the law in question, whether peace agreements should require a two-thirds majority to pass, or whether a simple majority was enough. 53% of those wanted a law favored a two-thirds majority, while 36% thought a simple majority was sufficient.
Accordingly, Yamin Israel urges the National Union and the religious parties (Mafdal, Shas, and Torah United) to co-sponsor a bill to amend Basic Law: The Government, to the effect that any peace treaty entered into by the Government with a foreign state or entity will require the ratification of two-thirds of a Knesset plenum (80 votes).
Such an amendment should prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, assuming the following line-up of opponents: the religious parties—22 votes; National Union—7 votes; Likud—12 votes (of its 38 members).
Even though a large majority of the public now opposes a Palestinians state, Yamin Israel warns that a referendum should be resisted in view of the Government’s ability to manipulate the unwary with the help of the left-wing dominated media."

Will this simple step be taken? Probably not, as all perks, budgets and power proceed from the Executive in Israel (there is no Israeli Constitution), and from the Executive exclusively. All too human, few Knesset members or parties are going to risk being left on the "outside" of the power circle by offering alternatives not in harmony with the Executive's program.

Ignorant of all of this, the average freedom-loving American who supports Israel will argue for the two-state death train, in the belief that the Israeli electorate actually support the experiment.

Please, please - Friends - Don't be Fooled Again.

#38 -

Scary indeed, but she can't hold a candle to that picture of Rachel Corrie.

#37 Squib

I would call those people Marxists or Communists. OT, but many Kurdish organizations in northern Iraq are Marxist in nature. Will make for an interesting power-sharing regime.

As far as the comparision between Hitler and Bush are concerned, it could be taken because they view Bush as far right-wing as Hitler. Perhaps that is why you don't see a Stalin-Bush comparison. Stalin killed an estimated 20 million of his own people, Hitler pales in comparison. However as for the peacenik attempting a connection between Hitler and Bush's ideologies, I would not give them credit for thinking as much. Probably more along the lines as Hitler killed a lot of people, and they think Bush will do the same.

#32

Ever heard of the French (!) "philosopher" Georges Sorel (1847-1922)? He is key-figure both for fascists and several different "leftwing" groups. His theory about a "heroic myth" is of great importance for nearly every protest movement of the day!

#14 T.J.

Thanks, I copied Charlie's comments onto my hard drive.

Can we reprint Charlie's comments here?

Everybody, if you haven't already done so, go to #14 and click on the link. Excellent comments from Charlie Daniels.

Jacob, i'm not even talking about the Bush-Hitler comparisons. I'm talking about the blatant bigotry, ridiculous conspiracies, etc. What the left of Indymedia says right now is what the right of the militia movement and neo-nazis have been saying for at least a decade.

#43
Thanks for the info...

What is wrong with these people? do they not see that this is gonna liberate the Iraqis? They should look more at pictures of this and this.

To paraphrase Napoleon "Oh for the pacifying effect of a whiff od grapeshot."

I saw this afternoon while passing through Times Square the riff raff pro Saddamites. They really make me sick. A motley crew of losers. Also on TV C-Span has spent a good part of its programming covering anti war teach ins, protests, etc.

The Far Right is the Left now.
If your confused, If we need a new term, just call them SHITHEADS.
Pat Buchanan is a now a leftist.
Noam Chumpsky is a Leftist.
White/black nationals are leftists.
Neo-Nazis are leftists.
Pat Buchanan is a shithead.
Noam Chumpsky is a shithead.

Confusion is a lie. You know who the idiots are and thats all that matters.

#48 Squib

I realize you didn't mention that Bush-Hitler comparison, I brought that up on my own accord. However I believe the word fascist is getting tossed around so much it loses its meaning. I was recently called a fascist by a Palestinian at my school when I supported Israel. I am by no means fascist, but both sides are calling each other fascist, and I don't really think everyone knows what they are talking about. Not that I am saying you don't, but fascist and what the traditional "left-wing" believe in just don't mix. They are opposites and fascism rejects everything the left believes like classical marxist interpretation of human history through the scope of economics (class warfare). Facsists believe not in Marxian interpretation of history and that it is merely economics that drives human action, but rather something heroic in the individual.

Fascism is a reaction to everything that developed in the late 19th century and that is socialism, etc or the ideas that were sprung from the French Revolution. While Fascism rejects "undesireables" the left embraces them as diversity, etc.

#52

lol, thanks for the clarification. Although I think they have more in common than just being shitheads. They hate you know who

Left-wing facists is an oxymoron- Facisim is an ideology of right wingers. That is why Hitler hated the Soviet Union.

I realize that that is the current neo-liberal/conservative view point, I don't buy it though. The name of the party was "national SOCIALISTS" and even a cursory look at the economic policies of the NAZI would show a deffinet "command-control" economy- the government dictated where resources went and what was produced. In other words - Socialism which is decidedly NOT a feature of conservatism which touts free enterprise and the allocation of resources by the individual and not the government.

Some people make the claim that a Monarchy is the ultimate in conservatism- both points of view are (in my opinion) historicaly inacurate from a economic point of view.

While there was a time when you most certainly could be a conservative and a monarchist (note the deffinition of a conservative in webster's) that premise died with the industrail revolution and advent of lassez faire economics. The pincale of which was the brittish east india company- India was not conquered by the English government, it was conquered by a corporation who sated purpose, upon the release of the first stock, was to raise an army and navy (privately owned) and go out and kick the dutch out of India and take over it. The East India Company is still, in today's dollars, is the most succesfull Corp in history, far eclipsing Microsoft and GM. It wasn't until Victoria's reign that the British Gov took over India as part of the Royal Empire.

"I am by no means fascist, but both sides are calling each other fascist, and I don't really think everyone knows what they are talking about. "

As was the case with so much else, Orwell pegged this one down: "Fascist" means someone you disagree with.
Now you know.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

"Extreme"

A position with which you disagree, but are unable to refute.

-Thomas Sowell

Thomas Sowell, what a great man. Truly a man of color that can see through the thick cloud of bullshit the so-called black leaders are leaving behind.

OT, but has anyone visited this website?

Holocaust

oh no, they have that disgusting "lady" on MSNBC. I think her name is Raghida. Anyaway, I'm starting to feel ill.

jacob Larow....

print this and show your 'palestinian friend'

[Link: www.secularislam.org...]

Islam, Middle East and Fascism
In a speech that he gave at Columbia University, Umberto Eco spelled out fourteen features that he considered were typical of Eternal Fascism (which he also calls Ur-Fascism ); adding however this explanatory detail: " These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it."

..............etc

It appears the pro-Saddam protest in NYC has turned violent.

The "palestinians" have no such distinctive identity. They are overwhelmingly (plus 90%) a hodgepodge of disparate Arab and Muslim itinerant groups who congregated in the area between the turn of the century and the late '30's. Indeed, by the history of their own claims alone, the 'nation' of 'palestinians', as such, did not appear on the world stage until 1967, (or 1964 if one countenances Arafat the Egyptian as 'representative' of this melange), subsequent to the Israeli take-over of Yesha by defensive war.

Of course, the fact that this "peoplehood" have a 36 year history on the planet will not interfere with them being given a 'homeland' by the USA and EU and Russia and UN (Quartet), in the very near future.

Well, the US and Australia have no distinctive ethnic identity either - that is part of our strength. So to me that is not a good argument against a Pal state. A much better argument is that they don't want to create a productive state and live in peace, that they have no history of stable self-government, and that unlike most other currupt violent dictatorships, they are too close to Israel and Israel is too small, for it to be safe next to a Pal state.

However, since most nations ARE defined to some extent by their ethnic histories, that is a perfectly good justification of Israel's existence, and the fact that it's also a fairly stable non-aggressive democracy helps.

“The petit bourgeois Social Democrat and trade union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communist always will.... There is much more that unites us than divides us from Bolshevism.... above all the genuine revolutionary spirit.”
-- Adolf Hitler

Fascism is a reaction to everything that developed in the late 19th century and that is socialism, etc or the ideas that were sprung from the French Revolution. While Fascism rejects "undesireables" the left embraces them as diversity, etc.

Your confusing propaganda with actual political practice- Mousilini recalled the glory of Rome, Hitler the glory of "tuetonic knight"; both used history/myth to supplant the traditional religious doctrines with those of the state - i.e. both were, like communism, atheistic agendas. As I've said before, a primary necessaity of totalitarian control is the destruction of faith in "higher authority" then the state itself- Nazi's, like early Communists, were required to declare their atheism and then their allegiance to the State.

A good book for reading on Hitler's real facination with Stalin and his brand of communism is "The Deadly Embrace" by Read and Fisher. Hitler spent a great deal of time restructuring the NAzi party along the lines of Stalin's communist party- the KGB was the model for the S.S., the camps they admisitered were modled after Stalins gulag.

The left has spent the last 62 years (remember, the original anti-war movement in this country, circa 1936, was founded by the American Communist Party- the liked Hitler because Hitler and stalin had a mutual assistance pact, that was in direct confrontation with the French/english and Belgium pact) denying that Hitler and Stalin and they were in fact buddies. AS everyone knows, hitler became the 'World's" number one enemy.

The "conservatives" who were attracted to Hitler, were attracted on the basis of "Socialism is better then communism" in the sense they did not loose all of their property to the State, they were allowed, as now in western Europe, to make a profit, so long as they did the state's bidding. The fact that the Facists were capable of combating the communists by killing them made them preferable to the communists who killed the bourgeois and took their wealth. That's how Hitler gained power, by promising to put down the Communist insurgency building in Germany- same thing in Rome. What they did after gaining power was a whole different matter- in short, just another route to power, and the use of "useful idiots".

Except for the comments of a few (Jacob LaRow is one), the comments I've read here seem to reflect a rather violent mindset. About 20% of the comments made here label dissenters in some way, or fantasize about violence. Notably, #24 was particularly disturbing.

I don't understand why so many posters here feel compelled to label dissenters to this war - they're "facists," "Neo-nazis," "Communists," "whacko environmentalists," "shitheads" - it goes on. Why? These are just the terms that your parents used to insult people they didn't like in the McCarthy era. Do you not see a disturbing parallel between your behaviour now and the witch-hunts forty years ago?

The anti-Canadianism, the anti-Europeanism? What's with that? This road of hate and intolerance is a step the road to Nazi Germany, Communist Russia. Just because other countries don't agree with you doesn't mean they're "evil." They are expressing their right (enshrined in the American Constitution as well) of free speech, of dissent.

Dictatorships result when dissent is stoppered. Dissent and protest is healthy. It is necessary for the functioning of a democracy. If you really want to keep America free, you'll stop this small-spirited hate-mongering, and welcome dissent in all its forms.

#43, Tiburon. You must be close to Alcatraz, so go pound sand. Do not link my posts to your self deceptions. thank you.

RE: Friends of Al Aksa.

I went to their pathetic, decrepit, anaemic little site and saw this:

Fact of the Day:
05 June 1967: The Israeli fighters raided ten Arab air bases in Egypt, as well as Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

Wow!

Hey! I've got one for you:

Fact of the Day:
06 June 1944: American and Allied forces invade Europe.

I guess that means that Hitler was wronged by those mean, sneaky, allies, just like those poor defenseless Arab armies in 1967.

Here's my last fact for you:

Wish of the Day:
06 June 2003: Israeli forces transfer the majority of the Palestinian population into Jordan and seal the border completely.

#67 Nathaniel Harari

Why Jordan? They've been decent enemies, and are now neutral. Leave Jordan alone.

Why not Syria?

Well, the US and Australia have no distinctive ethnic identity either - that is part of our strength.

Wrong, way wrong, the US was founded by English colonists, the US was, until very recently, 90% "white", i.e. "of European decent" which is, as Churchill put it, the "English speaking peoples".

Look around the world, show me where and in what Nation "Ethnic Diversity" works, it doesn't, it's a falicy of the left, knowing full it can later be used as a trigger mechanism.

Look at the 3rd world immigration in the US- it began shortly after Southern Democrats and small numbers of Jews began defecting to the Republican Party during Reagan's terms. This was coupled with a declining percentage of Blacks as a total of the US population. Asians tend toward high achievement and assimilation of traditional western values. 3rd world immigration was HIGHLY accelrated during Clinton's time- the effect is a none to suttle dilution of the so called "angry white vote". and the deliberate minoritization of whites (read "neo-conservatives)- wittness clinton's statement that he was "looking forward to the day when his daughter would be a minority" this is hoped for in the next 25 years.

The left can then point the bogey man finger at the white middle class, unifying the other minorities and passing ever more laws which directly descriminte against the "ruling class". Suicide? yes, Self-immolation? yes, but what should surprise you about that?

The left has long known the "native' born population of AMerica would never go along with a communist take over- no compelling need economically. Therefore, the only way to effect change is to dilute the native population- you must therefore import those that have interests diametrically opposed to native majority. My god people, wake up- smell the roses, the great men who founded this nation are being "racist, slave owning bigots" and therefore everything they stood for is circumspect. THe founder of this country has no Day of honor, the man who preserved the union and freed the slaves HAS NO DAY OF HONOR, but MLK does. THey are renaming schools, getting rid of "washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, madison" high schools and renaming after near ficticous people in the name of "multi-culturalism.

Wake up

it goes on. Why? These are just the terms that your parents used to insult people they didn't like in the McCarthy era. Do you not see a disturbing parallel between your behaviour now and the witch-hunts forty years ago?

It is interesting to note, that since the opening of the KGB files, many of McCarthy's assertions proved to be true - there was then and is now, a very large 5th column with in this country and in particular, Hollywood.

So chew on that one.

#64

Your confusing propaganda with actual political practice

Well, sure there could be a difference. Although Communism in theory is a good thing, in practice rather then helping the proletariat, it hinders them. I don't see one instance where fascism has been implemented where what I mentioned above hasn't happened. I could be wrong?

I see no difference between propaganda and acutal practice of fascism.

BBC-
Fuggin Asswipes
Dontchaknow the clip of the London Pro Saddam demonstration they just showed is the one with the sign "Jews Against War" clearly in the background.(And Freedom for Palestine, of course, even more clearly in the foreground.)
WTF?
How many of those Jews where there, of the 200,000? (If those numbers are accurate). How comfortable do you suppose they felt?
How dumb a sign is that ? Would that be as anomalous as , say, "Moslems Against Religious Murder?"

If you really want to keep America free, you'll stop this small-spirited hate-mongering, and welcome dissent in all its forms.

Ah, "dissent in all its forms". You mean like molotov cocktails, endangering lives, and vandalism?

That's not dissent. It's crime.

What you seem to miss is that people are not objecting to dissent as in disagreement, but rather dissent as in treason. Marching in support of Islamic fascism while you're living in a Western democracy is treason, not dissent. Encouraging soldiers to shoot their officers is not dissent, it is treason.

I couldn't care less what people say, or what signs they carry while they march, if all they're doing is disagreeing with policy. When they cross the line and commit crimes, or declare they prefer our self-declared enemies, that's when it's time to get angry.

As for calling people "Communist" -- that's not McCarthyism. It's truth. Read up on ANSWER and its roots in the World Worker's Party. They want a world-wide socialist government, and cooperate with governments like Cuba, North Korea, and Iraq against the United States.

I also don't see a problem with labeling people "neo-Nazis" and "fascists" when they act like Nazis and fascists. Marching through the streets in masks, committing violence and threatening peoples lives -- that's not "dissent", that's a replay of Kristallnacht.

Contrary to your fears of a "witch-hunt" the problem is we've been entirely too tolerant of traitors and fifth-columnists. If you don't believe me, just look at your charge of "McCarthyism" -- it's no longer acceptable to describe self-identified Communists as Communists.

(I'm a bit uncomfortable with the Kristallnacht anaogy, because it threatens to downplay its unique horror and scale. However, the parallel stands.)

The actions of Turkey are proof that NATO is dead. Hopefully the UN is abndoned too.

"I don't understand why so many posters here feel compelled to label dissenters to this war - they're "facists," "Neo-nazis," "Communists," "whacko environmentalists," "shitheads" - it goes on. Why? These are just the terms that your parents used to insult people they didn't like in the McCarthy era. Do you not see a disturbing parallel between your behaviour now and the witch-hunts forty years ago?"

As if the opposition is somehow full of pure, polite, thoughtful disagreement... pah.

"The anti-Canadianism, the anti-Europeanism? What's with that? This road of hate and intolerance is a step the road to Nazi Germany, Communist Russia. Just because other countries don't agree with you doesn't mean they're "evil." "

I doubt many here consider Canada to be an "evil" country. However, disagreement is indeed usually a neccessary pre-requisite for the "evil" moniker.

"They are expressing their right (enshrined in the American Constitution as well) of free speech, of dissent."

Yes, and those calling them "communists" are doing likewise. What is your problem with that, apart from the fact that you disagree? Are you trying to brutally supress their dissent through your shameless and indiscriminate exercise of social violence (A.k.a disagreement...)? I am shocked by such blatant neo-McCarthyism!

"Dictatorships result when dissent is stoppered. Dissent and protest is healthy."

You have it wrong: The *right* to dissent is vital for democracy. That doesn't mean you have to show respect for. or agree with the dissenters. If a bunch of Nazis hold a rally, I don't consider that "healthy", or "good for democracy", but I see the fact that the government isn't squelching them as a sign of a healthy democracy. The first amendment protects from government suppression of speech - not protection from the disagreement of your fellow citizens.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

What does the war in Iraq have to do with "Palestine"? Only the psychotic obsession of Arabs and their left wing sympathizers in their quest to exterminate the Jews.

Once again, the left wing gets cozy with reprehensible organizations that seek to destroy democracies. once again, the left wing rallies around a brutal dictator.

The left wing lacks any sense of shame.

#76 Aaron S.

Good. The next question to ask is, what have those protests to do with Iraq or the war?

Hope the Euros wake up in time to the fact that their civilization is threatened by the Lefties and the Muslim enemy within. They may still correct it, but the longer they wait, or are diverted by their sympathy for a 35 year oppressive military occupation and colonization by ISrael...the tougher it will be to take needed actions to put Europe right again.

As for the posters though, that argue that Palestinians have no right to lands they have lived on for 2,000+ years - you are in a dreamland.

Joan Peters book is thoroughly discredited as recycled 50's and 60's Israeli propaganda...especially the "so-called Pals were simply Arabs from somewhere else who flocked to Palestine once the Jews had "made the unihabited desert blossom". Her book has been judged by scholars in Israel, theUS and the UK to be academically dishonest from her fudged population tables.

Palestine had a large population pre-Zionist takeover, confirmed in the official British and Ottoman Censuses.

They have valid historical claim to the land. Like the Jews. And, like them...Jews are equally able to "move somewhere else" if they don't get ALL of Palestine and don't like the neighborhood.

It is sort of a moot point. Tony Blair and the East European leaders have pointedly told Bush that if he foot-drags anymore on the 2-State solution in deference to Zionists inside America or to Sharon's Likud....America will not only be unable to reclaim deserted Allies, but will lose the existing Allies it has, including Britain...in the next crises.

The Roadmap will proceed. Israel is defensible as is. It just needs good walls and protocals in any permanent border treaty signed to allow for military action and land seizure penalties if the Pals lob shells or missiles over the walls.

Dreamed of a nice condo investment in Hebron? The dream is over.

re: #68

Caton, because Jordan *is* Palestine. :) Let them go where they belong.

The king is nice and all, but if it prevents us from getting rid of this stupid problem for the political nicety of seeing his throne preserved....I frankly couldn't care less. :) He wants a throne so much, let him carve out a Hashemite corner out of Jordan and fight the Palestinians for it. But get them off of our backs first.

Not all of them are bad, of course not. But if they want their own country so badly, they have to realize that they already have it and the Hashemites stole it from them. If they want to be with their own so much, let them go. I'll encourage them. It's not like I want them in a concentration camp. I *want* them to have their own country - where it belongs - next to Israel, part of "Historic" Palestine (whatever the fuck that really means, of course, but I won't quibble because I'm tired of their arguments), and seperate from ours. I wasn't the one who started this Racist philosophy of Jews not being able to live in certain places, but I can sure as fuck finish it for them. If they find us so truly offensive, then they should get the fuck out. Crying babies and mothers, pictures of helpless refugees in wave after wave crossing into the Jordanian badlands doesn't do shit for my tear ducts anymore. They have, time and time again, been absolute fucking morons, idiots, clueless shitheads, and racist bastards. It's time they pay the real fucking price of:

1) Their support for Hitler in World War II - en fucking masse
2) Their support for the extremist versions of Islamic Nazism
3) Their refutation of every single peace overture ever offered them.
4) Their absolute hard-fucking-headedness to wanting to blow themselves up and the rest of the world in their pathetic mire of self-pity.

So Jordan it is. Expedient, insulting, realistic, and merciful. Let them make of it what they will. To hell with them.

I want them out.

Nat.

Jacob, Robert Brandtjen and others

Don't forget, Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) grew up as a cocky socialist until he was excommunicated from the party 1914! Fascism and socialism are like brother and sister. Perhaps with different "mythology", but certainly with a preference for the same corporate and state-driven organization of society and an obvious totalitarian attitude concerning the masses and the power (believe me, I'm born and raised in Sweden - the socialistic Utopia no 1!).

I'm really getting annoyed by Dave Cline, President of Veterans for Peace and his few buddies.

My response:

1) Being a vet doesn't qualify you as a person of knowledge.
2) You're veterans. So, am I. So what?
3) Stop evoking the name of Vietnam as your rally cry. It's dishonest and manipulative.
4) Stop wearing your old uniform. It's dishonest and manipulative.
5) You're pissing on the honor of the young men who are now dying in Iraq. Stop it!
6) You're analogies remind me of my grandfather in the 1960's who made references to WWI to argue for the war in Nam. Like him, you are way out of date.
7) Tell you're buddies to get rid of the pony tails. It doesn't make them look any thinner or younger. It just makes you guys look like old war vets.
8) I served in the Army and eventually turned against the war in Nam 30 years ago. So what?
9) Using your uniform and your experiences in Nam to get applause from a liberal, anti-Bush crowd, is like the town drunk telling war stories in the bar to get free drinks. Stop it. You're embarrassing our generation.

(For those of you who may think I'm being rough on Dave because he's a Nam Vet, I offer no apology and don't buy that b.s. that a Nam Vet has more insight into the Iraq War than someone who actually reads books.)

#79 Nathaniel Harari

Jordan is Palestine? Maybe... but 'Palestinians' are southern Syrians. You've got nothing against Palestine. Palestine hasn't done anything wrong. It just is there, as any land mass. It's 'Palestinians' that are and have always been a nuisance.

So, again, why Jordan?

#81 ray

Correct me if I'm wrong: you're more pissed at the way he's trying to talk on behalf of all vets without having any right to do it, than at what he's actually saying?

#31 Sharon

Hehe.

Speaking of outrageous "peace" protests, I can't find an online link to this story but yesterday in Montreal keffiyeh-wearing protesters burned the American flag!!! World peace and harmony - for everyone except the Americans. Can anyone doubt that if you stood among them waving an American flag you'd be beat up instantaneously?

I couldn't find anything about that protest, either. But, it might eventually show up here:

http://montreal.indymedia.org/

The term peace protester has become the most serious misnomer in the history of misnomers.

Do you ever feel like the only sane person left in this city of ours, Sharon?

#78 Ranbutan,

I'll tell you what: Let's agree on *everything* you just said right now, for the sake of argument.

I'll agree to a two-state solution - excluding Jordan - and everything else - even shared control of the Temple mount - if the Palestinians do one simple thing for me; one simple thing....

Admit that there was a Temple, that it did belong to the Jews before the Palestinians were around, and that they prevented us from worshipping like human beings for nearly 1400 years, apologizing for the entire dhimmi system outright and swearing to cast it aside forever after.

After they do that - as a *huge* majority with some 90+% of the population doing this in a huge, open, referendum, I will consent to discussing the details of a viable two-state solution in a real atmosphere of peace.

Until then, they can keep on dreaming about 72 virgins in paradise, and I will keep on obliging them to meet that destiny.

Nat.

Yes, praise Allah, our Turkish friends have struck a blow for Islam. Soon we will have the naval equivalent of floating World Trade Centers in the Suez Canal. You first with the Exocet, Abduhl?

#85 Nathaniel Harari

That's safe. I'll back your proposal.

#82 Caton,

Because Syria is just unrealistic. There is a viable and legal case for Jordan being Palestine. It really is that simple. If the Hashemites hadn't stolen it, then there really wouldn't be much of an argument right now. So, as it is the fault of the Hashemites, it should be them who deal with the consequences.

Nat.

#1 it's the flag of the Islamic Jihad.

These shameless freaks staged a lie-in right in front of Selfridges on Oxford Street. I had to run an errand in town and silly me, thought I'd be spared all the excitement if I kept a few blocks away from the commotion. But to no avail, the crowds spilled over on to the north side of Oxford. With traffic blocked off many of us had to wait untill the police were able to direct some buses in our direction. Its amazing the kind of conversations one engages in under such circumstances. Standing next to me was this elegant white haired matron who made it obvious she was not amused. After a long half hour the traffic started to move and our bus was on its way. At that point the woman said in her upper class English accent
"Scotty, faster, beam us all up - there's no intelligent life here.
Let me tell you, I gained a whole new set of respect for the English.

My heart goes out to the families of the fallen soldiers, the murdered Australian journalist and the missing ITV crew.

Jen

Breaking news?
A number of people at Free Republic now claim to have seen an NBC story in which Dr. Arnot reports the capture of an Iraqi soldier with an envelope full of "suspicious white powder" and instructions on how to spread anthrax to allied troops.
So far there is not a word on the MSNBC website, and I had the TV off when this supposedly came through. Has anyone here seen such a report?
If this is a hoax, there is going to be a mass banning at FR.

#88 Nathaniel Harari

Not really. When the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan was established, the population there was only beduins. Those same beduins that today hold the real power.

I still think sending human trash to Jordan is unfair for Jordan, while it would improve Syria quite a lot.

#67 Nathaniel Harari

06 June 2003: Israeli forces transfer the majority of the Palestinian population into Jordan and seal the border completely.

My wish as well but it is only a pipe dream.
Very soon we are going to have a peace
plan shoved down our throats as a little thank
you gift to blair, eu by Bush. I feel bad for
Bush because I know the pressure upon him
is immense and I know too that he is very pro Israel........but still, he will have to do it and stand by it.

The thought of this sanitized redo of Oslo
(arafat's trojan horse vision) strikes real fear in me.

Isi Leibler penned a chilling
account, Beware of a false dawn which quite precisely mirrored some but not all of my thinking. And while I do not agree with his total
premise, he is really on target.

Looks like the same anti-US/anti-Jewish rabble that we have here in Canada. Our dirtbag PM has decided to sit this one out and watch from the sidelines with the gutless French and the two time losing Germans. Hopefully after "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is over, we could see "Operation Canadian Saviour".

#90

I saw the report. Still no word on what the white powder was/is.

here's where you can send a niiiiice message of thanks to the Muslim Association of Britain, that "MAB" that is stuck on all those placards, meaning it's this powerful MAB (whose "leaders" get interviewed on BBC.. sigh..) that pays for all this crap and finances all these protests, no doubt with the money coming from "donations" from the mosques and islamic centres of both Britain and Saudi Arabia....

[Link: www.mabonline.net...]

You can contact the Muslim Association of Britain's head office via:

E -Mail
info@mabonline.net

Telephone
0207 272 2888

Fax
0207 272 2226

Mail
233 Seven Sisters Road
London
N4 2DA

--- I also suggest someone in London go outside their headquarters and burn a Palestinian flag just to see what happens... wanna bet you get arrested?

#91 Caton,

Yes, this is true, but it is also true that it has been said by the Hashemites themselves - many times - "Jordan is Palestine". There are various quotes to that effect.

Who am I then to disagree with them on that score? :)

Nat.

#92 selpaw

I'm getting increasingly scared about this, too. Not a peep from anybody in Israel gov't today. Scary.

#95 zaza

--- I also suggest someone in London go outside their headquarters and burn a Palestinian flag just to see what happens... wanna bet you get arrested?

What a mighty delicious thought!

Can you imagine the headlines world wide ; - ))

Caton,

I just don't have the time or the inkling to argue that right now. :) It's a non-starter. As I said: I'll have the two-state solution outside of the realm of Jordan if the above points are met. :)

Nat.

Hey, here's the link between 'peace protests' and 'Palestine':

PA: "Destroy America And Israel"

#65 - I don't understand why so many posters here feel compelled to label dissenters to this war - they're "facists," "Neo-nazis," "Communists," "whacko environmentalists," "shitheads" - it goes on. Why? These are just the terms that your parents used to insult people they didn't like in the McCarthy era.

Yes, my parents were known for using the term "shithead", from time to time, during the McCarthy era. I am SO ashamed of my heritage.

{sarcasm off}

You'll be happy to know that I am not actively seeking an M42. I am also not blocking traffic, vomiting in public, destroying property, making molotov cocktails, attacking police, calling for the murder of US soldiers, etc. like the "peace activists" whom you so blindly support.

#101 Frank IMC

You'll be happy to know that I am not actively seeking an M42.

Too bad. I had just found a M-2 for you. No ammo, though.

[Link: www.protestwarrior.com...]

I caught a part of one of the banners and it went something like "India killed ?000??? in Kashmir..." Did anyone else see that? WTF? I hope I misread it but something tells me I'm probably wrong. OT : I'm disgusted and embarrassed by the position my country (India) has taken but then again we haven't shown evidence of spine in a long time.

#97 Caton

I'm getting increasingly scared about this, too. Not a peep from anybody in Israel gov't today

Well my dear.... our government leaders are
simply behaving in the image of 'obedience.'
If they are 'good' they might get a little reward.

You see the whole world can scream foul play.
They can lie and murder, distort, coerce and
twist the truth until hell freezes over.
For this we must make nice to our arab friends
and assure them a million times a day we mean
no to harm to them ; - )) We must tell them like
a worn record that their religion is peaceful.
We must embrace them (appease) with love
and understanding and compassion.

But Israeli leaders must stay quiet and well
behaved or else they get their little hands slapped
by everyone standing in line just for the opportunity.
And of course they must always use complete restraint no matter what.

btw:
I really have been thinking about what you wrote
yesterday. Thanks.

Here's a nice Support Our Troops picture.

I don't know what can be done to stop the Islamic fundamentalists and Palestinian appeasers. They're fucking everywhere! in every bloody demo and "peace" march, muslim organizations waving anti-israel signs, Palestinian flags and headscarves, it's insane. I'd like to send all those people over to one of those terrorist training camps and see if they open their eyes, but probably no, they'd still be fooled by the arab propaganda.

I am ashamed that so many people in europe have totally, totally lost their minds.

And now the Vatican is the New Medina of europe. See on [Link: memri.org...] how many government papers in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia actually praise the Pope for saying exactly the same things as the neo-commies and islamists. He's the new bin Laden!

- selpaw: yes! I wish! but then again it'd be seen as totally offensive, wouldn't it. People have lost their minds, the propaganda has penetrated everywhere. My other dream right now is for people in Rome to go outside the Vatican tomorrow, Sunday at mass time, yess, sweet revenge, to burn the Vatican flag. And in New York, people burning posters of Saddam and bin Laden. I'd love to see some counter-action (non-violent, of course), something to show we see the lies behind these 'peace' marches. Show them who's really for peace. to see people dressed like kamikazes call for "peace" is an insult to the word itself. and a Palestinian state now, in these circumstances, with terrorism expading and terrorist propaganda penetrating everywhere, would throw crap all over the liberation of Iraq. agh.

#66 Gymnast. Where did that ad hominem attack come from? No, I won't be linking to you without your permission, again. But wherein are my comments "self-deception"?

Caton:

What's the rate of fire of an M2?

#65, how much longer can totalitarian thugs like ANSWER continue to hide behind the whisky-sodden ghost of Joe McCarthy? "McCarthyism" is a dismissive label, denying a whole world of facts and evidence that have been documented on this website since 9-11-01.
Are we stoppering dissent by speaking our minds about these people, posting the facts about their actions, positions and associations? You are implying that we don't have the right to do this, since suppression of free speech is illegal. If so, then what the fuck has happened to our right of free expression? This claim of "stoppering" alone identifies you, not us, as a totalitarian and a fascist. Read my post #17 on an earlier string.

#100 Caton

I read about that earlier on Arutz Sheva.
Excuse me but they (palestinians)
are fuckers all of them. I am sick of hearing
about them. And I am more sick that 98%
of those idiot protestors are carrying their message.

I saw an earlier discussion on who are palestinians and where they belong? (other than hell) In the event you may not have read Palestinian people do not exist you might want to take a peek.

caton #83

re: #81 ray

"Correct me if I'm wrong: you're more pissed at the way he's trying to talk on behalf of all vets without having any right to do it, than at what he's actually saying?"

Caton:

I think I'm equally pissed at what he's saying and how he uses the "I'm a Vietnam Vet" role to further his non-sense arguments

Yesterday, high school kids in our city skipped classes, went downtown and chanted "No more Vietnam." WTK do they know?

I'm pissed and saddened that guys of my generation are making analogies between Nam and Iraq and using their Veteran status as if that was some kind of proof of knowledge and authority.

As for what Dave Cline has to say. I listened for several minutes. "...war is wrong before it starts and after it starts because war is always wrong..." He speaks much but says nothing.

Back in the 60's and 70's us veterans were gold to the anti-war folks. Put a vet in uniform in front of an anti-war crowd and you're guaranteed a thunderous applause. It doesn't make any difference what the guy says as long as it's anti-war and anti-"the man."

Man, I could go and on but I'll spare ya'll. In short Dave Cline is a person that I also pity. He is a shell of what he could've been because he is living in the past.

"I think I'm equally pissed at what he's saying and how he uses the "I'm a Vietnam Vet" role to further his non-sense arguments"
"using their Veteran status as if that was some kind of proof of knowledge and authority."

You have identified the central fallacy of practically all left-wing activism, the appeal to authority, including related fallacies like appeal to strength (the latter expressed in blocking streets and in bogus claims to speak for "the people").
Obviously, all possible positions can be supported by fallacious arguments of one kind or another, but the totalitarian left is unalterably linked to these fallacies. Their movement is about authority and power, they can't help using these arguments. It is their Achilles heel.
Look for this fallacy and you will be able to fisk almost all lefty claims and arguments.

#109 Frank IMC

550 rounds a minute. See here for more information. It's complete, with tripod, tested and working, but no ammo left. It had been 'neutralized' but spare parts were available...

Note: You have to come to Normandy to get it. And I want it back.

#111 selpaw

Well... I am trying to be very careful and not let my hate of the Palis take over. But, let's put it like this: if all of the Palis and their supporters committed suicide together, I would be concerned about the smell and the potential bio-hazard.

#112 ray

Hmm. I see. I have similar feelings when I see Lebanon vets talking about 'peace' with the 'poor Palis'.

It's even worse than it looks in those pictures. Those MAB "Don't Attack Iraq" signs are double-sided and have "Freedom for Palestine" on the back as well. The last two protest marches in London have had "Don't Attack Iraq/Freedom For Palestine" as their official dual slogan. I don't know whether that was the case for this one.

As explained by Barbara Amiel in The Telegraph,

The MAB, co-organiser of the London march, has a number of ideological and personal links with the Muslim Brotherhood, the oldest Islamist organisation, four of whose members assassinated Anwar Sadat and whose offshoot is Hamas. ... Anyone who has read the literature of the MAB knows that now, as then, "Palestinian freedom" for the MAB is achieved only at the expense of eliminating a Jewish state in the Middle East.

The main organisers of the march, the Stop The War Coalition, are a gang of sad old Trotskyists, Stalinists, and failed politicians (the Socialist Workers Party and their cronies) , who roped in the MAB, against the protests of some of their far-left comrades, to boost the numbers.

You know, as a loyal British subject this pissed me off, but then I thought...if MI5 ordered every terrorist sypathiser in the UK to walk slowly past police cameras holding evidence of their affiliation would they comply? When the mussie/anarchist alliance asks em then they queue up...a blessing in disguise now that the misguided middle-englanders are backing the troops... todays little march was the hardcore enemies of Britain.

Plenty of intel for the boys to be going on with...

#113 atomic

I wrote a 200 word response to your comment of #113 then erased it after reading the "appeal to authority" argument.

Now, I can better articulate my anger at Cline and his sad, old friends.

Thanks much for the article.

It's on my hard disk.

You'll be happy to know that I am not actively seeking an M42.

How about an M1-A1?

#107 zaza
You're great! I really felt your energy. (not just words)
What you wrote hit the truth like a sharp slap.

Actually, I am involved in the planning of some counter protests which I am unable to talk about too much at this time.

(I was raised in a extremely liberal (bordering socialist) big time democrats, strong Jewish, Zionist home)
Not to give away my age but I was very involved in
Viet Nam protests. I was arrested several times.
I laid on railroad tracks to stop nuke trains and handcuffed myself to fences at ammunition plants.
In latter years I had an epiphany and became rather conservative. Yikes.

I have kids here in the states and in Israel.
Two grandkids here and two there.
Each year I go to Israel for up to a half a year where I play and visit but best of all do work both as a devil and angel ; - ))

My juices are running high and I have great strength
and determination.
I really want to smack those protesters (as only one goal) and I wouldn't mind at all if I were arrested. (I'm married to a lawyer..!)

I have no fears what so ever except that if we sit back and do nothing those fuckers will ATTEMPT
to chew us up.

Keep your spirit.

"John Paul has said there is no legal or moral justification for military action."

Ah,
Now I understand why my Church had been so quiet during the Jewish Holocaust. I think they really believe this.

The Pontiff's words would be so more credible if he rode around in his Pope mobile without the bullet proof plexiglass bubble that protects his own life.

#118 Robert Crawford

How about an M1-A1?

I'll take it. You have no idea of the traffic in Paris when the 'peace protestors' hit the road...

Caton, Robert Crawford:

Thanks for your kind offers, but I'll be content with my "air M42", with its amazingly effective cloaking device and silencer.

{schizophrenia off}

Caton -- Only as long as you pay to fix the roads.

Oh, and did I mention the anti-gravity device?

#123 Robert Crawford

Only as long as you pay to fix the roads.

I won't damage the roads, I promise. I'll be sure there's always something between the tracks and the road :-)

I see "Andrew in Canada" never came back. Another hit-and-run Indyot.

Caton,

Well... I am trying to be very careful and not let my hate of the Palis take over. But, let's put it like this: if all of the Palis and their supporters committed suicide together, I would be concerned about the smell and the potential bio-hazard.

What the hell, we'll sacrifice and take the bio-hazard.

___________________________________________
Those protesters don't get it. They are so misinformed because it is difficult to find one fact which can compare Viet Nam to Iraq. (except soldiers, airplanes, etc.)
Iraq is in no way Viet Nam. I think because (having my own kids their age) most protesters have lived such sheltered lives with little to protest or understanding of how to protest. Now we have this misunderstood unpopular war and its like,
wow THIS IS MY CHANCE!
It's like back to the 60's with mommy and daddy.
- and they have LESS of a clue now then I did then

Hilarious. I encourage free speech, and I am labelled a "totalitarian and a fascist."

Likening this to McCarthyism is not a label, it is an analogy.

Re: #73. Marching in support of Islamic facism (whatever that is) is not treason, nor is encouraging soldiers to shoot their officers. Stupid, perhaps, but not treason. No more than insinuating that if you had a M-42 you'd kill a bunch of protestors is murder. If you shot the officers, that would be treason.

Re: #113. No, I don't suggest that you should stop registering your support of this war in Iraq. I do suggets, however, that cutting the insulting rhetoric would encourage actual results, instead of this bickering (on this site, notably one-sided ;-) that happens so often.

I encourage anti-war protestors to drop their simplistic rhetoric as well. My plea is across the board.

#108 Tiberon. Everything except your first sentence relates to something other than the post to which I was responding(#9 Jacob La Row). By not seperarating your remaining thoughts from the first sentence you create an implied connection to that which preceded your post#43. It is this that I criticize because intended or not it is a form of deception. I have no problem with your post after the first sentence,as it is your citations and opinions. But it switches topics. OK?

"No, I don't suggest that you should stop registering your support of this war in Iraq. I do suggets, however, that cutting the insulting rhetoric would encourage actual results, instead of this bickering (on this site, notably one-sided ;-) that happens so often"

This is a bit of a truism - who doesn't want dignified discourse? Still, "McCarthyism" is usually referred to as being something more than just calling your opponent names. Also, dragging the first amendment into this is completely unwarranted.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

#116,overwatch. Spot on, and hopefully being recorded at intersections on this side of the pond nation wide. Smile for the traffic cameras.

"'Hilarious. I encourage free speech, and I am labelled a 'totalitarian and a fascist.'"

What a bizarre piece of Orwellian inversion. In accusing us of "stoppering" dissent, you have implied that we are breaking the law by expressing ourselves. The characterization stands.

"Marching in support of Islamic facism (whatever that is) is not treason, nor is encouraging soldiers to shoot their officers. Stupid, perhaps, but not treason. No more than insinuating that if you had a M-42 you'd kill a bunch of protestors is murder. If you shot the officers, that would be treason."

Inciting mutiny is a criminal offense in and of itself. On the other hand, actually shooting officers is not necessarily treason, though it is a captial offense.

"I encourage anti-war protestors to drop their simplistic rhetoric as well. My plea is across the board."

Their simplistic rhetoric is not the problem, far from it. Their tactics of violence and intimidation, and their open endorsement of much worse violence, are. Sweet reason is not an adequate response to mob rule.

#129 gymnast

Point taken, and I apologize - I'm still a bit new at this. Certainly didn't intend to "co-opt" you into my post, it was unintentional.

Arguably it was also Off Topic, my post. It's just that I'm feeling pretty depressed today, as I see that: -
(from IMRA)
"The European Middle East peace envoy Miguel Angel Moratinos said Friday that
the “roadmap” for peace, which calls for the establishment of an independent
Palestinian state alongside Israel by the year 2005, might be announced
within 10 days.

Speaking after talks with Lebanese Foreign Minister Mahmoud Hammoud,
Moratinos said Europe regretted the US-led war on Iraq but added that the
European Union was looking forward to the resumption of Middle East peace
process.

“The United States is ready to have the roadmap published within 10 days
from now,” Moratinos told journalists.",

...and we all are still labouring under the assumption that logic, morality and reason are going to work to further truth and justice, as long as Israel has a government that does not allow true representative democracy, unlike 70 other democracies in the world.

As I pointed out in post #43, the Israeli government is NOT ACCOUNTABLE to the electorate, and only approximately, occasionally, represents their interests. Since #9 Jacob was asking seriously about origins of the Pals, I thought it not too much a jump to point out that it makes no difference in the end where they came from, if the Israeli electorate is not allowed to decide their own fate - the "Existential Decisions" will be made in Israel, by a priviledged and autocratic elite, backed by the self-appointed Israeli Supreme Court.

Look, this is a long thread, so there is only so much worth saying here, and I have no blog, nor does Professor Eidelberg (the leading Constitutional Theorist in the world dealing with Israel, according to Prof. Louis Beres - and if that is an "appeal to authority", it is nonetheless legitimate, IMO). To me, if the majority of Israelis were for a Palestinian State on the Land they control, I'd have to back off. Right or wrong they will live with their decision.
But there is no way to ascertain that under the present political regime in Israel.

BTW - I'm NOT in California! Canada, rather. Suitably embarrassed and ashamed of our 'lords and masters', King Jean and his Liberal Party. (If I had wherewithall I'd follow Marc Steyn and move to New Hampshire. "Live Free or Die"). Canadians layed down a disproportionate sacrifice in the World Wars, but those heroes are today spinning in their graves, IMO.

#84 Phil,

Do you ever feel like the only sane person left in this city of ours, Sharon?

I wouldn't mind holding my own protest. My sister suggested "Fight for Peace" as a good slogan. What do you think?

And another thing... I don't want to seem picky, but has anyone noticed the general unattractiveness of these "peace" protesters? I mean, would it kill some of these people to comb their hair and put on a clean shirt? What is it about being anti-war that makes one disdain personal grooming so much? And what's with the guy who casually ambled by giving the finger to the camera? Is this his idea of meaningful protest? At first they made me angry, but that's been succeeded by a more purely esthetic revulsion.

Anyway, speaking of Thomas Sowell, I just finished his superb book, A Conflict of Visions. It really clarified things for me. I now understand that to these unrealistically idealistic protesters, the alternative to war is... peace. But to me, the alternative to war is being subsumed by militant Islam. When Bush was elected, he had an isolationist vision of foreign policy. But 9/11 very clearly presented us with the real challenge: Us or Them. They're not going to let us leave them alone, no matter how much we want to.

Andrew in Canada are you living in some parallel universe? As far as I know Ari Fleischer has not called Chretien a moron which Francine Ducros thought was an appropriate description of the President of the United States. Nor has any representative of the US Congress or Senate stated that they hate the bastards - Canadians, as the overweight, bottle blond intellectually challenged Liberal MP from Mississauga did. I think you are looking through the wrong end of a teloscope. I hear on the CBC nothing but arrogant put downs of the US and its leadership. The Toronto Star is so full of Arab worship that using it to wrap garbage is an insult to garbage. I think you could do with a bit of New Testament wisdom about motes in eyes. As I see it, all the hate and disparagement is coming from our self-righteous country and at the moment it's a one way street but if that should change you and I are going to feel it in the pocketbook big time.

caton #114 - i hear ya, re:your remarks about the Lebanon vets.

re: McCarthyism: (yeah, that stupid argument)
I'm from Wisconsin. I am very aware of that period.
There's no correlation between that time and 2003.
Andrew from Canada- read your history books. All of them.

Fight The Hollywood Power!

Back in the McCarthy era Hollywood had "black listing." (Andrew, if you come back, look it up.)

There is no black listing in today's Hollywood. But the consumer has the right not to buy entertainment from celebs who offend them.

Hollywood is a whore. She understands money.

Do not buy her CD's or DVD's. Send her a message!

There's lots of good ripping software out there. I recommend Roxio for music CD's. It comes free with most Windows based home computers.

Fight The Hollywood Power!

"Money talks, bullshit walks." my Dad

Andrew from Canada:

I hear ya but...

Relax.
1) Some of this stuff is "dark humor."
2) Some of it is venting which is normal in the civilian population during times of war to release stress. (I know this because my best friend is a psychiatrist.)
3) This is free speech. Feel free to be sometimes offended. You can even disagree. All we are saying is throw-in some facts that follow a logical thread to defend your argument. I know that sometimes I fall short of this but I will try harder. I will educate myself more.
4) Believe it or not, most of the visitors on this page will bleed and die for their convictions. You will see little of that kind of commitment from the anti-war crowd, except for the Muslims.

peace and knowledge...

it's the drudgery of their earnestness that turns me off, and the way their voices rise as they make their points..."We simply MUST stop Bush before he uses this WAR as a PRETEXT to invade KOREA when we all KNOW that we must NEGOTIATE with the happy Koreans and not let WAR be the only answer to our PROBLEMS and ISSUES and by the WAY don't you like the way I SQUINT when I'm really EARNEST with my arguments and do you think my university pals ADMIRE me now for sticking it to my MOM and DAD..."

#120 ray: Don't get me started on the pope. Love Catholics mind you....but the pope is really on my bad side now.

#133 Tiberon, I assume you know now that Tiberon is a small city north of San Francisco on the Bay. The expression "pound sand" relates to the principal occupation of convicts on Alcatraz Island shortly after the American Civil War (sand was pounded into barrels and shipped to the mainland) . I believe any plans for a Palistinian state that existed prior to this week have been overtaken by events and are about to become historical curiosities. The Mid East map is about to change physically, perhaps Topagraphically (joke), and 'roadmaps' mean nothing if the roads are undergoing political reconstruction. The future presents many interesting possibilities to those who sieze on the possibilities. Isee no future for the P.A.

Will someone please tell the Vietnam Vets Against the War in Iraq to come out of their basements, turn on the TV and get up to date.

Also, inform them that it's 2003 and that Walter Kronkite has been replaced by Rathers. They might get confused.

I gotta go watch the news.

byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....

#127 selpaw

I think you're right, most of those 'protesters' are just brainless tools. From the look of them, none could find his dick in a Turkish bordello and they wouldn't know how to use it anyway.

However, because it is obvious those tools in the streets couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, I think there are people behind these movement who know exactly what they're doing and have the funds to set this kind of shit up. Those are the ones that must be found and terminated. Quietly if possible.

WTO protesters, pro-Pali protesters, peace protesters... they all look the same and use the same strategies. I'm getting paranoid. Where's my tin-foil kippah?

#140 gymnast

From your lips to G-d's Ears, my friend. I cannot share your optimism. While intuitive, for certainly it makes more sense after Battle #1 in the Civilizational Conflict (the Babylonian Campaign) that the Pals will and should become "irrelevant" to the USA, there are still very powerful forces in the State Department that will willingly use Israel as a 'bone' to throw to "moderate" Arab regimes as they face the restive (but likely, yes, overrated) "Arab Street".
They CAN succeed, because many of us still think that Israel is a true democracy, and that if the Israeli government agrees, that this means the Israeli populace does as well, as it would be in America in similar circumstance. State Dept can use threat of witholding economic assistance, military tech cooperation, and the like, to force the hand of the Sharon government - and as it stands today Sharon has the power to simply approve a deal, without any legal requirement to go to the electorate.
This must be tempting to State - it's a win-win from their standpoint.
Imagine that Israel HAD true representative democracy though: - Look at the care and feeding that Tony Blair got pre-war from State while he struggled with Parliament. If Israel had a system like the USA, with proper "checks and balances" and an empowered Knesset - Americans would UNDERSTAND the debate within Israel on the issues, and possibly stand back a bit and let us decide for ourselves.
And not to depress YOU, but didn't Tony Blair just make a statement yesterday that he saw the Israeli-Pal issue as needing immediate address? And isn't everyone rushing to lionize the Holocaust revisionist Abu Mazen's appointment as "prime minister" as 'best thing since sliced bread'?
For me, when I see the end of US military aid to Israel AND the end of US military aid to the confrontation states (let the free market and Israeli tech skill rule!), really "hands-off" policy, - I'll start to relax. Or when they allow Israel to become the 51st State of the Union!
:-) {Then, Israelis can be drafted to help fight the coming state of Aztlan, in the US Southwest}
That's sarcasm, attempt at.

gymnast: -

It's TibUron. Which is an island off of Baja Mexico, I think. Also, "shark" in Spanish.

#128 - Andrew - one of the interesting things since the fall of the Soviet Union has been the ability to see into the archives of the KGB.

Among the interesting facts -

The World Bank was created by the leading KGB agent in the US Treasury Department in the mid-late 1940's.

One of the leading architects of the UN Charter, Alger Hiss, was also a senior Soviet agent.

The only time that the KGB was actively afraid of counter-espionage activities being done by the US was during the time of the McCarthy hearings. That is one of the reasons that the full propaganda effort of the KGB, and their supporters in the US - went after McCarthy, as well as the more reasonable officials that decided to follow-up on Tail Gunner Joe's efforts in a more logical manner.

McCarthyism was no different then from the attacks from the left today on conservatives, and in particular christian conservatives. The main objection uninformed people have against it, is the fact that it was directed against the left.

I suggest you obtain a copy of Useful Idiots by Mona Charen. This will give you a better insight into the issues of the fight between the Left and the Right from the Cold War to the present. You may reconisder using McCarthyism as a rallying cry.

#142 Caton
I know you've got it in your head (from another debate a while back) that I'm somehow your 'enemy' in all this, (which I can only hope you trust I am not) but: -

"Where's my tin-foil kippah?"

Now THAT'S funny!!

#145 Athos

Nice, accurate and succinct.

How do you fancy this anti-war rally in Santiago? Anyone know what that lovely sign means in English, you know, the one of a Magen David with a line through it.

#134 Sharon

I wouldn't mind holding my own protest. My sister suggested "Fight for Peace" as a good slogan. What do you think?

Great idea, great name. I'll order the bullet-proof vests.

Seriously, though, isn't it deliciously ironic that these so-called "peace protesters" are so easily moved to violence and general lawlessness? I haven't heard one example of a supporter of this war getting into any kind of trouble.

And another thing... I don't want to seem picky, but has anyone noticed the general unattractiveness of these "peace" protesters? I mean, would it kill some of these people to comb their hair and put on a clean shirt? What is it about being anti-war that makes one disdain personal grooming so much?

Indeed! The term un-washed masses comes to mind.

Here's a great example, if missed it earlier this week.

http://brain-terminal.com/video/sf-2003-03-15/quic ktime-hq.html*

* To avoid certain disaster, do not attempt to consume any beverages while watching this video.

Tiburon, Some problems are more easily solved with lead than ink, then you start with a clean sheet of paper.Not always mind you.

#146 Tiburon

Actually, I have no enemy alive.

#151 Caton

Are you saying that you have no enemies, or that all your enemies are dead? Please clarify so we know whether or not it's safe to piss you off.

LOL

#152 Phil

Are you saying that you have no enemies, or that all your enemies are dead?

Yes.

I was in Copley Sq in Boston where I saw the police blocking the road between Exeter and Dartmouth Sts (right at the library). There was a huge protest about 50 yds away, and I commented to one of the officers, "I'm assuming that you're here just in case they come your way." He said, "We hope not."

Lots of police and prisoner transport vehicles (paddy wagons) around to make sure nothing got out of hand. Even saw some Boston Police officers guarding the Mass Pike tunnel on St. James Avenue. By the time I got out of the library, the protest was over, so no problems.

#148 zulubaby
That's "Jewish Criminals - International Usurers" on the sign. A lovely 'ol middle ages libel of Jews...

Main Entry: usu·rer
Pronunciation: 'yü-zh&r-&r, 'yüzh-r&r
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
: one that lends money especially at an exorbitant rate

Shades of Shylock! I DO love the Spanish, but man they can go over the top. Look at the stuff on the AZTLAN sites...At risk of too broad a brush, "It's a Catholic Thing".....

#151 Caton
ANOTHER funny! ;-) While Canadian, I AM WELL-ARMED, {ya, it's possible, just takes quite a while and lots and lots of paperwork} - so I guess we'll be friends!
:-) [nothin' too fancy - a 9 mm FN and a Remington 12 Defender, 8 shot camp gun] For when we begin to do something serious about the jihad cells in-country, and they decide to try to teach us a lesson, too....
Don't laugh, got some acres up in the hills (north of Ottawa), and next county over there's a group of 6-8 Arabs who have gotten a farm and are holding weekend weapons practice. This is NOT being taken well by my farmer friends who are their neighbours.

#150 gymnast
I hear you....see above - When I can get it together I'm off to run out my time on the Golan. "The (As)syrian came down like a wolf upon the fold" Where do you think all that NBC has been going from Iraq? A Ba'athist nazi is a Ba'athist nazi, say I.

#148 zulubaby: That looks like Hillary Clinton in the front row.

#155 Tiburon

Get a rifle. Something scoped, that can shoot at 800 yards or so. If you have those kind of 'neighbors' you want to keep them well away from your family.

Personally, I'm partial to the Mauser SP66, in .308 Win. You should be able to buy it as a hunting rifle. A trick: don't go for a variable scope. Just get a good 4x or 6x. You won't adjust the scope anyway.

And get more ammo for that shotgun, too :-)

to Andrew in Canada talking of "The anti-Canadianism, the anti-Europeanism?" - which anti-europeanism? you mean the boycotts and anger against France and Germany for not backing the US, and European people in general for being so ungrateful, forgetful and brainwashed by the arab street? see, I'm in Europe, I was born here, in a country liberated by Americans. my mother was in the same position Iraqi kids are today, getting chocolate from the Marines after they knocked down Mussolini - whose grandaughter, the bitch, the niece of Sophia Loren (yeah did you know she's a relative of Mussolini, I bet it wasn't advertised in the US) and an MP has just been on tv saying she is against this war because she is "a mother" (she forgot the second part of the word). is that the anti-europeanism of the US? liberating Europe from the horror of the nazifascist regime? and knocking down communism? or going into Iraq also to protect our asses once again, even for the people who don't understand it and think their real enemy is the US because they're parroting the New United Meccas of the World line? give me MORE of this anti-europeanism, please! come on Americans, I want you all mad and angry at Europe, mad enough that you keep putting your own troops at risk for us! again and again and again. every intervention the US did, it did for the whole west, for our interests too. just like Israel is (was, should have been) standing like a sentinel, a barrier between Europe and Islamic terrorism, and see, see what they've done, the Islamic "pacifists", now they turned Israel into the villain, and persuaded half of Europe to lick their asses (and pay their taxes, already, like the good old Q'ran dictates, oh that sweet religion of submit-or-die, such a marvellous instance of pacifism).

the hypocrisy. the lack of memory. what is this thing called history if not an obstacle in the face of idelogy?

I don't know about Canada, but if you're in the same situation as today's Europe is... weeell, good luck, we'll both need it really badly.

and don't feel offended by the harsh comments. I think people are being even too civilised here. come on, it's to be taken for granted no one is debating the right to free speech, even when it's idiotic speech, of course. that's the pride and weakness of the west - democracy, a sure weakness when it's being exploited to hide pure extremist propaganda under the cloak of "dissent". ah, but let it be, let it be, let it be, there will be an answer.... so, at least, dear Andrew from Canada, will you kindly allow people to just rant and express their own incredulity and frustration at the blindness, ignorance, misinformation and/or bad faith of protesters on a website, since they're not giving many US supporters all that airtime and attention on tv, eh? so much for the whole chomsky-model of "manufacturing consent" from top-down - I wonder if he'll ever have the courage to acknowledge who is manufacturing dissent now.

Department of Poetic Justice:

"It is one of the painful ironies of this war that one of the most anti-war cities in the nation, San Francisco, is being disproportionally harmed by the tactics of the anti-war protesters," Mayor Willie Brown said. [Reuters]

Well, you can't ask an anarchist not to crap in its own nest --- that's too much like making rules.

#158 zaza........you remind me so much of myself
then and now.
Stay mad! Don't quit. Give em all hell ; - ))

#155, tiburon. From Bagdad to the Bekka, if we were to take the sensable route home. That would have been the sensable route to Bagdad, over the beach from Beruit. The world would never heard of Alexander or Ghengis Khan if they had taken council from the likes of the UN security council.

Some of you have asked: who is paying for all of those signs? I would like to add another question: who is paying for all of those bombs and the ten million dollar hollywood set (I thought cons hated hollywood)? The answer is we are. And what will we get for those billions? MORE TERRORISM. Thanks, bush. Power to the protest. Real people, real americans....

....Caton

I think there are people behind these movement who know exactly what they're doing and have the funds to set this kind of shit up.

You are right and they are sharp as a knife.
And scary as hell!

Those are the ones that must be found and terminated. Quietly if possible.

How, when and where? Must we be quiet?

WTO protesters, pro-Pali protesters, peace protesters... they all look the same and use the same strategies. I'm getting paranoid.

Paranoid, me too!

Where's my tin-foil kippah

with all the other tin foil kippot, in hiding-

#163 selpaw

Quietly, because game is scared by noise...

ginger: if you prefer, you can always send your money to some "Islamic charity" that will make sure they get to those people who do such loooovely things such as sending kamikazes against the US troops in Kuwait, so as to "stop the evil imperialist war".

or you could also try and ask yourself this question: who was paying for Saddam? answer: the oil trade with France, Russia, Germany, the UN and very likely some Vatican bankers. you know, those principled pacifist leaders...

or try this: who's paying for terrorism? answer: the same people who finance those protests in London you see pictures of above. the supporters of all those 'Muslim Brotherhood' organizations that are coverups for Hamas (thanks to the person who posted that Telegraph link, by the way, great article!).

and yes, terrorists may very likely strike again and once more blame it all on the US. Just like bin Laden did when he justified the attack on NY as retaliation for the first Gulf War, Palestine, blah blah blah. So, you're telling me that you think this war may be a cause for more terrorism (as opposed to be used as a pretext for more terrorism), so I take it you think that bin Laden was actually right, and justified, in blaming the attack on NY on the US itself? because that's exactly the same "logic".

Doesn't cross your little confused head to wonder what is the real root cause of terrorism, eh?

- selpaw: oh no I'm not mad ;-), I'm totally shocked-and-awed by the idiocy of the protesters! the anti-americans who are all coming out of the closet, it's so insane to listen to people talk exactly like bin Laden and not one of them realising the odd association. war makes strange bedfellows, indeed...

zaza: You go girl! Well said.

(At least I'm assuming you're female, please don't be offended if you aren't :-)

Caton: ahem... I strongly object, if I may. it doesn't benefit anyone but the fundamentalists to have even more "martyrs" to "the cause".

though, if you used the term metaphorically as I gather, then I'd fully agree.

And in Paris, two young Jewish boys were stabbed by "peace" protesters.

Fuck them!!! Bastards. I loathe these anti-American pieces of human garbage.

The Jewish Agency called on the French government "to assume its responsibility for the security of its Jewish citizens, and to prevent violence against Jews or anti-Semitic acts under the guise of pacifist protest".

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath. I'm furious.

Ginger.

You are apprently quite the blithering fool.

Bush isn't your enemy. You are.
You are submissively kissing the ass of those who are going to terrorize you and your loved ones because you LET them. They are not punishing you for Republican/Capitalist sins. They are not reasonable people taking reasonable measures to better the world. They are sick brutal fucks who think of you the way a farmer thinks of dirt. You are a passive easy means to an end and nothing more. To top it all off they think that God gave you to them.

They, like any agressor are actually LESS likely to fuck with you if they know that you can and absolutely will hunt them down and end them along with anyone they hide behind. Sure a few are self absorbed ego-maniacal suicide weapons disguised as men but the rest are practically text book low end pirates who simply make a habit of preying on easy meat. LIKE YOU.

Thought you should know douche bag.

Yer pal,

Emery

selpaw: yes I am, and of course I wouldn't be offended at all even if I was a guy and you'd mistaken me for a girl - I think you mistook me for a Muslim fundamentalist, lol...

#167 zaza

The real organizers will not be 'martyrs'. That's another reason to have them terminated quickly.

Do you want to know a secret?

#168 zulubaby

As usual. Nothing new. Been like this for years now.

Now let's wait for 'Freebourne' to explain how I'm exxagerating and Paris is not dangerous at all for Jews...

That old whore Greta Duisenberg is having a most wonderful time in Amsterdam, leading an anti-American demonstration.

You get it wrong again. This country did not elect this president. This country did not authorize this war, and yet we are paying for it with our soldiers lives and our tax dollars. Violence begets violence. Simple as that. How can you refute that? Or I am sure you are familiar with the bible:

To avoid a quarrel is a setback for sin, for it is a hot temper that kindles quarrels.
A sinner sows trouble between friends and spreads scandal where before there was peace.
A fire is kept hot by stoking and a quarrel by persistence.
A man's rage is in proportion to his strength, and his anger in proportion to his wealth.
A hasty argument kindles a fire, and a hasty quarrel leads to bloodshed.
Blow on a spark to make it glow, or spit on it to put it out.
Both results come from the one mouth.
--Ecclesiasticus 28:8-12

SIMPLE...stop war. We are supposed to be evolved.

Caton (#171)

The mood I'm in after reading that, I strongly suggest she refrains from doing so.

And I LIVE in NYC. Leave 9/11 alone, perverts.

ginger,

I think you're on the wrong site.

Ginger -

This country did not elect this president.

Have you read your beloved Constitution lately? The part that spells out how the Electoral College works? And has there been any attempt by the Democrats, who were supposedly wronged by it two years ago, to abolish that institution?

Violence begets violence. Simple as that. How can you refute that?

I'm guessing you consider World War II, the liberation of Europe from Hitler's evil grasp, to be a sin as well?

Ginger,

Bullshit. Bullshit to all of it.

Bush won though ny a slim margin. He won fair and he won square via the elctoral college as all presidential elections are won. The rumors about Republican efforts to interfere with the election all turned out to be smoke and mirrors from the DNC. Basicly the Greens stole your votes.

Your crap is nothing but a lie from a bitter little jabbering mouth who can't handle reality. All the Supreme court did was stop the Democrats and their compatriots in the Florida Supreme court from improperly rewiting to law to give Gore's suporters the time they needed to maufacture Gore votes from improperly marked ballots. They also made them count the overseas votes which they tried to have thrown out on a technicality since they would favor Bush over Gore.

In 2002 The Republicans picked up seats in the Senate and Congress and governors mansions.

Congress approved the war. The UN approved the war with Res. 678 back in 1991. Polls show that Americans now support the war without UN blessing and that Britain's population now supports it in majority as well.

You are nothing a but a very loud and dishonest little fuck in the clueless sheep-minded minority, It's a shame that not many have fallen under your spell but facts are facts and your side of the debate is LOSING power which seems to provoke you to greater and greater heights of hysteria and careless misinformation.

If all you have to offer up is stale busllshit and Orwellian innuendo then I guess militant Islam and it's Marxist boosters can have you. Dumb ass.

#174 Ginger -

And I LIVE in NYC. Leave 9/11 alone, perverts.

Screw you and your sanctimony. The fact that you're not willing to lift a finger against those who perpetrated this atrocity shows how phony your concern for the victims is.

Do you know there is a (staunchly pro-american)country in Central Europe, where, in her two-million capital, only two hundred piss-niks protested against US and British war in Iraq (nice rate - about 0.01% of its population). In other cities and towns they are virtually non-existent - skin-heads at al take care of them. To make it easier for you, I want to add there is just one operating mosque in the above country.

#180 Matt K.

OK, I'll bite. Which one?

It's a hard-liquor (vodka) drinking and a catholic land, with a very deep distrust towards her Western and Eastern neighbors, with bankrupted shipyards, where dismantling of communism started. Got it?

#182 Matt K.

Yep. Time to have dinner in a Polish restaurant...

ginger is all worked up after a busy day of "anarchist shopping":

Power to the protest. Real people, real americans....

For some more all-too-real people, I've been checking up on the other half of the anti-war movement, those creepy sheet-flappers at Vanguard News Network (I won't link to them).

Here are some words of encouragement from your comrades, ginger:

Dreydl spinners and goy bedazzleds love war. So far about six Americans have been killed, most of them Whites. Good French names prominent among them. Good, tough French-American boys giving their lives for the Likudists using them to advance Israel's agenda while spewing hatred on the land of their ancestors. Jew body count in Jews' War III: zero.

Some people are making the same point at SF Indymedia, of course. Recycled Nazi propaganda really gets around, doesn't it?

Oh, and the VNN Nazis are also demanding that Israel hand over the Jew that "murdered" that wholesome white girl, Rachel Corrie.

The Moronic Convergence rolls on.

#171 Caton:

yes, please, I love to know secrets, when possible, and when these secrets are not too scary?

(and as for termination, well metaphor or not, I guess if those "real organisers" are the usual terrorist suspects then it'd be ok)

#182: *buzz* Poland. too easy.
by the way, the Pope indeed forgot he was from Poland when he reproached the Italian government from suporting the US, he also forgot he was twice liberated by Americans - first from nazis, then from communism.

#184 Glen Wishard

Don't take it badly, but... it's reassuring to know the U.S. have their share of morons :-)

#185 zaza

The secret is, it's been done before, by some countries. It can be done quietly, as in an 'accident', or it can be done cunningly, as in planting evidence another terrorist organization is behind it. Never got a 'martyr' out of those operations yet.

Ginger: go prepare to receive egg all over your face in a week or two, when Baghdad is liberated and a nice pack of WMD is brought out for all to watch in shock'n'awe, aww.

and if you wanted to discuss at all you'd bother to reply to actual posts instead of switching the cards continuously - first it's legality, and you fail to respond and acknowledge you're wrong when its pointed out to you, then it's the US Presidency and elections, what next? slavery? the civil war? columbus? the big bang? how far back in time do you want to regress to avoid facing the current situation?

#188 zaza

At least she hasn't reached geographical denial yet :-)

Re # 185, Zaza, mortacci tua, Amis never reached Poland (and Pope's Cracow) in 1945 - they sold her in Yalta to the soviets in the same year instead. And forty-four years later they got rid of commies by themselves, capisci ?

#Caton: but that's no secret! not here at least. but, not done in ways that I could see the benefit, in fact, the other way round. esp. the things that happened in the seventies.

I don't dare ask you the obvious question now...

#191 zaza

Email, then...

I said I wasn't going to link to VNN, but I think some people would be interested in seeing this: National Alliance protesters at Hartford "peace" march. [WARNING: Neanderthal Content]

Stormtrooper Andrei Kievsky, who apparently took these photos, explains why leftists and Nazis deserve each other:

All in all, it's a very good thing to show up and work on the Left. The vast majority there were White Gentiles whose only problem was believing in weakness as a virtue and in the fallacy of individualism. Let them see the clean-cut young racists on the right side of the issue when it really is the right side. Let them see that we can think for ourselves, and that the only point of disagreement is tactics.

You won't see these people on the network coverage of the "overwhelmingly peaceful" protests.

Glen Wishard (#193)

Ugh! Please don't link to that despicable website.

#190: Matt, mannaggia li mortacci indeed, you're being too pedantic now over the details ;)

ok I meant that "liberated" generally, and was referring to the fact hte Pope mentioned the fact he had lived the war and therefore knew how bad it was etc, well the Corriere della Sera promptly published a short recap of his life prior to the Vatican, of his being a factory worker and trying to escape the camps set up by nazis, he avoided being rounded up by going to the seminar. so my real point was he should have remembered the war he lived was the war *by* the nazis, and how he rejoiced when communism collapsed in Poland also thanks to the US influence... he should also remembered he got shot by a Muslim terrorist. is it Alzheimer? he seems healthier. anti-semitism of his speech writers, more probably.

Where can you find Islamists, anti-semites, fascists, communists, social democrats, pacifists, David Duke and Robert Fisk on the same page?

[Link: www.balochistanpost.com...]

Re #195, Zaza maledetto, va bene, come sempre hai ragione. I started with minuscule numbers of protesters in Warsaw, Poland and how they love them there, you finished with the Pope and Ali Agca. Anyway, no hard feelings, I hope, evviva Italia! P.S. You'll call me pedantic again - next time write GLI mortacci, per favore.

#197 Matt K.

Come mai nessuno mi ha detto che questo è un filo italiano?

Sorry, Caton, I can not forget the best part of my life (years ago in Rome) - I am exercising my Italian.

#197 matt: LOL! "LI" senza g- è come lo pronunciano a Roma ;-)

ah and I was only joking about being pedantic, come on. you guys speak perfect italian, well, roman dialect in fact!

Caton: tu quoque? allora posso fare domande in codice?

#200 zaza

Other people speak italian, you know... Did you check your email?

The demonstrators make it look like this demonstration took place in Karachi and not London. Perhaps the British will have to reconsider their immigration policies, as we should ours.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

THE FRAUD OF ANTIWAR MORALITY
This week there were reports of brave, impoverished Kurds burning effigies of Saddam Hussein even as the Iraqi Gestapo hunted them down. Meanwhile pictures were being broadcast of Europeans torching simulacra of George Bush. That contrast sums up the current abject dissolution of the antiwar protestors — a bankrupt movement that has intellectual roots in the crowds who slurred Churchill and praised Chamberlain.

Go figure. Poor people atop their own oil who have no liberty, little gas, and few cars can risk their lives to express a desire to be free from a mass murderer. Simultaneously, wealthy, elite Westerners (who import their oil to drive nice cars) risk an hour or two of leisure time to damn a democratic leader for risking war to free these enslaved. Poor, tortured, and exiled Iraqis grimace at all this; Uday the Impaler and Chemical Ali smile.

In peacetime some creepy, self-proclaimed "human shields" volunteered to protect Iraqi civilian targets that won't be hit. But they bolted on the eve of war on being directed instead by their dictatorial hosts to guard military sites that probably will. Some morality.

Novelists and intellectuals decry 45 dead in Jenin and 500 civilians in Kabul killed in the liberation of Afghanistan. Suicide-murdering and medieval fundamentalist fascists are never mentioned. Nor do they say anything about the thousands slaughtered in decades of border-shelling in Kashmir, or the innocents of Chad butchered by the Libyans, or the tens of thousands of Christians executed in Africa. One person killed accidentally by a Westerner, after all, is worth 100 killed deliberately by "them."

The behavior of elites is similarly disturbing and reveals a deep sickness within American culture. What is the pathology that infects privileged Americans in this present conflict — why is it that the clerics are so out of touch with their parishioners, the actors with their audience, the professors with their students, the reporters with their readers? Hollywood celebrities either trash America abroad to cheering Europeans (cf. Jessica Lange, the Dixie Chicks, or Michael Moore), visit a criminal state on the eve of war (cf. Sean Penn), or talk of the general oppression and unfairness of the corporate America that alone gives Hollywooders a lifestyle undreamed of by the rest of America or the world at large (cf. Barbra Streisand or Ms. Huffington). Lost in all this posturing are some 26 million Iraqis — tortured, exiled, jailed, and brutalized under fascism.

So what is the truth?"

trying to discredit the protest in london on the basis of the ethnic makeup in the photo's is more than a bit weak (and in some peoples cases racist). london is a multi-ethnic city and there were people of every colour, religion, and background at that protest. We had our own protests here in Ireland on the same day (10,000 in Dublin) - same story.

Palestinian banners etc: Protests make for diverse bedfellows. I'm sure even pro-Bush rallys bring together a variety of opinion and interests. The only common thread amongst the protestors is opposition to this war (and in some cases - my own included - these circumstances)

re: geographical denial. hardy har har, what a laugh. Try reading my GB post and learn something new.

#204 blind one

Learn what? That we should all disregard the Encyclopaedia Britannica and the Oxford Dictionary, and listen to you instead, as you obviously are the ultimate authority on the English language?

Yeah, we got it.

/sarcasm off

and besides, "ireland", what was the point of your fixation with "GB is not an island" if not to avoid responding to the Taiwan issue you were discussing?

oh, and you must be reall hell bent in distorting everything becausing pointing out a main Muslim organization with ties to the Palestinian terrorists and a clearly intolerant agenda of hatred and incitement to violence was paying for all those placards and organization of that protests in London has nothing to do with "racial" profiling (your ignorance is dazzling, since when are Muslims a "race" eh?) and not even with being a Muslim per se, but with belonging to a very powerful organization that promotes hatred and Jihad.

claerer now or are you gonna find yet more sophistries to cling on to?

and last: the incredible amount of Palestinian banners everywhere is surely not a spontaneous phenomenon of strange bedfellows alone. in every country, Muslims organizations of the sort of the MAB, ie. clean neat facades for jihadists, backed by the usual suspects back in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia sending lots of nice dollars and euros to their bank accounts, are being among the main organisers of protests with unprecedented coordination and reiteration of the same hatred refrains and banners. Would be nice to get at their central command. Since the Iraqi regime is (soon to be WAS) the top financers of the Palestinian terrorists, you can guess what routes that money followed.

maybe even through the iraqi swiss accounts of the UN oil-for-food programme, provisionally to be renamed flags-for-terrorism?

I see perhaps that the attempt to cool the rhetoric here is futile (though much praise to ray and zaza - none to Frank IMC: your language, hyperbole and all, is reminiscient of Germany, mid-late 1930's).

Perhaps it is healthy to vent. Maybe.

It seems, however, unhealthy to have as much gusto as so many of you have for war, for killing, even if it is purportedly in the name of freedom.

It is a sobering thought, though, that 80% of the population of the world thinks you are wrong. Including at least 30% of the States. Well over 50% of Canada, perhaps your most likeminded trade partner.
That, in my mind, would give my pause for some serious reconsideration.

Re #208, Andrew in Canada, you definitely should change your name to Marcel (and finish like your master). Youlikes would never fight neither for Danzig, nor for Baghdad. I do not blame you - you just blindly follow your gutless PMs in Ottawa. And, by the way, where have you got your data from ? At the Concordia University Department of Statistics?

andrew: even if it was 99%, and including life on mars, atlantis and the other parallel universes some people love to inhabit at the moment, well sorry but the source of legitimacy and democracy is not public opinion or the media or Swiss bankers or Kofi Annandersen or Jacques 'la grandeur francaise' Chirac. it's a) the US right to self defense and b) as put down in all those resolutions the UN stamped with approval only to shrug its shoulders at them later.

you're not keeping up. right now it's the next stage. do you want the US to lose and leave Iraq in a mess and the regime to come back?

if yes; then go back to said parallel universe

if not; then do the only thing that's logical to this answer, ie. stop protesting what everyone consented on "except we don't want it through war" - still waiting for the parallel universe inhabiters to show us parallel universe planets where you can remove massive regimes and massive weapon equipment held by said regime without going through wars.

next!

and oh, I forgot, for real "gusto for killing" please check under Hussein, Saddam (noun) - synonyms: regime, dictatorship, repression, violence, fascism, militarism, greed, plundering, terrorism, chemical plants, abu nidal, osama bin Laden, jihad, fatwas, war.
- opposite of: democracy, justice, freedom, dignity, human rights, peace

so if you're really for peace try and check where you stand, it might be the Iraqi dictionary definition that you're really endorsing. and just fiy, it's not a credited or reliable source for scholars of peace....

#98: it's exactly the same thing I was thinking at least inso far as being more decisive but... in the end I really trust that's what the US is doing and going to do more and more gradually, and that anything it's doing it's gotta have a very good reason, given the full context in which this war is taking place. and as for letting the reporters in very close and tvs showing everything, well it must have been their choice too. it's hard to tell if it's backfiring, I see it as more like coming across as perfectly transparent so the usual suspects making up propaganda have no excuses.

you can see it as yielding to pressures, or just needing to take that full context... in context.

I do wish they didn't show the Iraqi ministers though, just flipped over to CNN and they're giving full airing to a press conference by the regime, it's sick to be doing that right now.

-- oops, previous msg is in wrong thread. browser played a trick while posting

#208 - Screw you. You wouldn't have done a damn thing to stop the Nazis, had you been alive 60 years ago, just as you're not willing to do anything to stop "Hitler II" now.

Isn't it ironic how some people use the word "McCarthyist" in a "McCarthyist" fashion to smear their opponents when they can't make a legitimate argument?

80% of the population of the world thinks you are wrong.

Um, just how many of the world's five billion people participated in this poll?

re: 210.
"but the source of legitimacy and democracy is not public opinion or the media or Swiss bankers or Kofi Annandersen or Jacques 'la grandeur francaise' Chirac. it's a) the US right "

I think you could cut off your statement here, and have it hold true in the minds of most the people here. This is the main reason Canada (for one) is upset with the US. If the source of legitimacy is not the public, then by definition, it is not democracy. Canada is not in this war because its people, the public (the source of legitmacy and democracy), do not believe that the US started the war properly, through the right channels. It is this unilateral action that upsets Canada. For, given that the US wants something, what is to prevent them from taking it, if they believe it is right? What if the US wants Canada's oil, or water, or land, or lumber? Do they just take it, in the face of the UN and world opinion? I think the effect of your line of reasoning is that they do.

"right now it's the next stage. do you want the US to lose and leave Iraq in a mess and the regime to come back? "

No, now that the US is in Iraq, I hope they do a good job of it. Regime change, for sure. Hussein is not a good leader - an erratic, crazily arrogant murderer and racist (in regards to his views on the Kurds). If the US does as good a job as they did in Japan (the Marshall plan), I would be content.

re: 214.

Frank. You seem incapable of actually arguing with me. Stop the insults. They lessen the force of your attempts.

Andrew from Canada: then you really don't know what democracy means. It's not the direct rule of the masses via the internet or remote control button. It's representative democracy. Meaning, it's the representative, elected democratic government that decides.

Or do you want the masses armed with remote control to be put in charge of the US foreign policy? do you Canada in charge of US foreign policy?

Stop raising ridiculous hypothetical questions, and get informed on what the US has decided all along in the past year, it's been fully compliant with international law and conventions and treatises and their own and other countries sovereignity and right to self-defense and the UN charter and all the resolutions on Iraq, starting from the one that said that total disarmament was a condition for war on Iraq to stop - hostilities have resumed because there's been no disarmament, period.

OF course if you get your "information" on the notion of democracy and the legal process that led to this war from the street protesters without bothering to read up on the actual documents, you can believe all the crap you like.

#206

It doesn't matter who paid for the placards in the photos. I've gone on protests with people holding placards for marxism, veganism, the power of prayer, all sorts of beliefs I don't share. The point is that the protest was about a specific issue, and just because you don't like the background of some of those attending (or organising) doesn't nullify the legitimate concern of those attending.

Lots of people who don't care about Palestine or World revolution have been out protesting against the war. It's a bitter pill you'll just have to swallow (just like we have to swallow the fact that the war is taking place).

view from Ireland (#217)

It doesn't matter who paid for the placards in the photos.

I am floored! Of course it matters! How can you be so blind? My G-d! Do yourself a favour and find out about what and who is behind these riots. You, and others like you, are being used and that doesn't bother you?

You just made things a lot clearer for me. Thank you.

re: 216.
"Meaning, it's the representative, elected democratic government that decides."

While that may be the case in the US, it is not in Canada. There, the elected representatives are supposed to obey the will of the people. A democracy.

Otherwise, it's a republic, like the US.

I read in quite a few of the posts here, the same attitude of:
"If you don't agree with me, then you must be swallowing Communist/Facist/Militant Islam propaganda and being played like a puppet by some vast conspiracy."

Really. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm sucking on the propaganda tap. Honestly, you seem so sure of yourself.

I would love the "masses with remote control" to be put in control of foreign policy. That's democracy. Otherwise, it's an elected dictatorship.

I think, zaza, if you looked at some sources other than American ones, you might notice that the US hasn't got a sterling record when it comes to foreign policy. Why would you be upset when other countries are suspect of their motives? Canada, by condemning this war as illegal, is exercising their right to determine their own foreign policy. Just as I believe Canada should not determine another country's policy, I believe the US should not dictate policy to Canada, or any other nation.

When the US decides to break a treaty, they do so. NAFTA. UN dues. The Missile Treaty. They find reasons to justify it, but it's really just the same. When they decide that a treaty would not be in their best interest, however slightly, they oppose it. The Landmine Treaty (the US was one of three nations to oppose it out of the entire UN). This is not something that has been happening for just the last year. This is a chronic thing in American policy.

Anyway, that's my last word here. See you on another thread.

Dear Friends,

I am struggling to figure out where many of the people here get their ideas from, may be the ‘right-wingers guide to the galaxy’.

You need to be totally blind to justice, equality & freedom if you support some of the views I have seen on this board.

I am so surprised that this racist propaganda is alound to be hosted by your ISP, is this a pro-Zionist discussion board, what does any of this have to do with a design company called LGF ??? SOME ONE PLEASE EXPLAIN !!

Please raise any questions you like regarding Palestine, Iraq OR US double standards, I’m sure there are hundreds of decent patriotic Americans who would be more than happy to answer !!.

Power to the People !!

#218: zulubaby: see, doesn't bother them in the least. they have a common enemy, they'll share a common strategy, they won't ask questions, islam is peace, resistance is heroic, terrorism is the defense of the oppressed, blah blah blah.

#219: Andrew,

I would love the "masses with remote control" to be put in control of foreign policy. That's democracy. Otherwise, it's an elected dictatorship.

1) get a dictionary, search the term democracy, here you go:

- Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but is indirectly exercised through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed; a constitutional representative government; a republic.--

2) Now tell me, when and where has any population on earth been in direct charge of foreign policies and specifically military campaigns?

3) to take effective decisions as opposed to act blindly on the spur of emotional reactions, "masses with remote control" would have to be informed, briefed by intelligence, knowledged in legal matters, expert in diplomatic relations, meeting and discussing issues at a coordinated level, and be capable of planning and in short, be 24/7 professional political, intelligence, military representative leaders.

isn't that exactly what we have? thats democracy. isn't it amazing to discover that's what you have already? or do you need some real life direct experience of real dictatorship so you can stop babbling on about being under an authoritarian regime?

now go back to study your history of the development of western thought and civilisation, thanks. starting from the ancient Greeks, of course. you got a lot to catch up on

Dear Zaza,

FYI (in your response to Andrew) Did you know that the only reason teh west has access to Greek philosophy is because the Arabs translated it for teh west, otherwise you'd still be living in the dark!

I think, zaza, if you looked at some sources other than American ones,

hahaha... see, you made the assumption that just because I happen to see the logic and necessity of what the US are doing, I must be American. I'm not. I don't live in the US. and the kind of media I get where I live is shamelessly pro-palestinian, pro-arab, pro-saddam, to a level I can't even begin to describe. it's all one big pandering to the pacifists and even the government, who is actually supporting the US even if not with troops, is hiding, cowering to the rioters.
I also get my information from occasionally watching Arab channels which fill up my satellite bouquet, that's why I'm telling you the things I said.

believe me, I have absolutely not been submitted to any sort of pro-american reporting. it's only a minority of media that are being fair, before being pro-US, where I live.

it's just, I can think with my own head and consider facts before ideology.

oh, and I'm more left than right wing, I voted for both left and right on different issues and different occasions, since I don't really identify too strongly a-priori with either "categories". I'd definitely vote for Blair and Bush if I was in UK or US. so you can just skip the categorization entirely and just discuss reality.
by the way, even Clinton backed this, so, this is not even about left or right, it's about realists vs deluded. traditionally, though, it's a fact that the left esp. at the level of movements and protests and extra-parliamentary groups has always been a lot more deluded than the right especially on foreign policy issues. those are the groups leading protests together with islamists, their new allies. anti-globalists, socialist atheists, catholics, and Islamic fundamentalists - what a strange constellation.

#222: idiotic nonsense. and totally unrelated. your point?

Dear Zaza,

You are very short tempered, you can only be an Arab or an Israeli, Either way you must understand Arabic to watch Arab TV. Very interesting, a mouse that roared from the lions den.

Right OR left, I think confused is the best way to describe you. Do you have any sensible points to raise, or do you want to continue throwing false accusations with no foundation.

If you want to make a point make it. I'm sure that there is a suitable response

#215 -

It's very difficult to hold a logical argument with a hypocrite who hides behind phrases like "McCarthy era" and "Germany in the 1930s" whenever he's losing an argument, and then immediately turns around and accuses opponents of "name calling" when they respond.

#222 -

That was then, this is now. If only the Arab world had, now, the level of civilization that it did at the time it translated the Greek texts. Things might be a lot better. How widely studied are these Greek texts in the Arab world, now?

Also, Arabs would be living in the dark if not for the European/American invention of electricity. And they would not have the wealth that they do, had the west not utilized petroleum, and discovered it in their barren lands. Only to have the wells nationalized (read "stolen") by these backward countries.

#225 -

You are very short tempered, you can only be an Arab or an Israeli

You were saying something about "racism" earlier?

Dear Frank IMV,

Welcome to forum,

Let go over your OH SO interesting points:
1. The general level of education in the middle east & third world (backwards) countries if far superior to that of teh average western kid. The level of Algebra (invented by your number one friends) and other scineces is taught at an extremely low level in the west. Most Indian/japanese kid from the slums would wipe the floor with most western kid.

2. As for European/American invention of electricity, the majority to of engineering, sciences, navigagtion & medicines used by the west are taken directly from the Arabs. If it wasn't for the constant insecurity of the US, who constantly oppress the people of teh middle east by supporting terrorists such as Saddam there would be no contest.

3. had the west not utilized petroleum I think they would have been the poorest of the poor. All the west has done is impose and supported dictator such as Saddam, King Hussain, King Fahad etc. in order to keep teh wealth frmo teh people of the middle east and keep it all for their own greedy purposes. I say shut dowen all the oil production and lets see who is poor and who is not!

Just to ADD, The US specifically Mr D Rumsfeld armed and supported Saddam while he was gassing his people.

AS FOR DEMOCRACY, why do they not go and bomb SAUDI Arabia where nmost of the 9.11 hijackers came from.

Awaiting your response, dear friend !!

Dear Frank IMC,

in response to #227, I simply made a suggestion to aza's ethnical background in no way if this racism, if I were to call an American an American would this be racism ???

You want an example of racism try these to name but a few:
#13 A S D "Arabs and more Arabs, with their Iraqi and Pali flags"

#3 PatrickM "dozens of Palestinians trying to swarm into Israel"

#4 SecHumanist "Thick as thieves these terrorists"

#202 Thomas J. Jackson "it look like this demonstration took place in Karachi and not London. Perhaps the British will have to reconsider their immigration policies"

#225: I'm an alien, actually. I speak 34 languages and can read your mind: no language needed to do that.

still waiting for your own point, perhaps you implied we shouldn't remove a dictator because.... the Arabs did contribute marvellous things to human civilisation? what is the relation there you were trying to make, really? what's today's terrorism and terrorism-sponsoring regimes got to do with Arab history from thousand of years ago? what's going on now is about today's Islamists and their dictator friends and financers. - so your comment was unrelated.

besides, the Greek philosophy texts were passed on and inherited directly by the Romans. Greek language made its way straight into Latin, dude. no Arab intermediary. the Arabs translated them for themselves, in Arabic, duh. the direct heirs to Greek culture and civilization including political institutions and all the basics of democracy and western thought were the Romans, who expanded it and exported it all over the place, it mingled with a ton of other influences, blended with the culture of Germanic and Saxon peoples, and later on in France, Britain and America it all blossomed into modern democracy, in short. the English language has tons of words with roots of Greek and Latin origin. none of Arab origin. all words relating to politics and institutions of government - the word "politics" too - are of Greek-Latin origin, not of Arab origin, so they didn't come from Arab translations into... exactly into what language did you think the Arabs translated Greek texts for western consumption? - so your comment was nonsense.

"Thick as thieves these terrorists" - please explain how is that "racist"? are terrorists a race? interesting...

Dear Zaza,

With your level of political analysis you must be an alien, no one living on earth could come up with such bizare comments, and have such limited intellect.

"You ask what does terrorism-sponsoring regimes got to do with Arab history" I remember a great saying frm a great nation saying Innocent until proven guilty, I see in the new BUSH era this a thing of the past.

"Islamists and their dictator friends and financers", I asgree all as bad as each other and all should be stripped of power. Now who Sponsored Usama Bin Laden- USA, WHO spnsired Saddam against his people- USA. Finaly we agree, USA is the root of all world terrorism.

"Greek philosophy texts were passed on and inherited directly by the Romans. Greek language made its way straight into Latin" Guess again, read your history books DUDE !!

"word "politics" too - are of Greek-Latin origin", OOH PLEASE, where were you taught your history, probably the same place as Bush Jnr. WOW politics has grrek origin SO does Democrat, SO WHAT. All manners of learning universities, books teh use of pens and translation came from where? CORRECTAMUNDO Einstien, those Arabs you love so much

1 - Why do you cite Indian and Japanese academic performance to defend the Middle East? And India? If their level of education is as high as you say it is, why is their GDP so much lower than the US?

2 - the majority to of engineering, sciences, navigagtion & medicines used by the west are taken directly from the Arabs

Who, as you admit, took much of their knowledge from the Greeks. Yes, there was a great Arab civilization eight hundred years ago. But it fell into backwardness, leaving the West to rescue the knowledge that the Arabs had originally rescued from the West. And of course the west made many amazing advances on the knowledge, thus enabling modern civilization. Which of course the Arabs benefit from.

3 - King Hussein

I was not aware that Jordan had a substantial amount of oil?

4 - had the west not utilized petroleum I think they would have been the poorest of the poor.

The west was richer than the middle east in the 1800s, before the discovery of the uses of petroleum. I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion.

Also, since the Arabs had virtually nothing to do with the development of technology to use and extract petroleum, I don't see how you can claim that all of the wealth is "rightfully theirs".

If the extraction and use of petroleum were to end overnight, the west would still have its knowlege and expertise. Substitute sources of energy would be found, and quickly.

CORRECTAMUNDO Einstien

Uh, you spelled "Einstein" wrong.

Dear Zaza,

You are getting brighter as a result of our interaction.

You are quite correct, terrorists are not a race?

BUT to falsly accuse a person/people of terrorism OR call them a terrorist is slander an a criminal offense IF proven not so, in any 'civilised' country anyway.

#235 -

Dear Zaza,

You are getting brighter as a result of our interaction.

Get over yourself, and grow up.

#232 -

In response to Zaza's statement

Greek philosophy texts were passed on and inherited directly by the Romans. Greek language made its way straight into Latin

You wrote:

Guess again, read your history books DUDE !

So why don't you enlighten us as to what YOUR history book says regarding the interaction between Greek and Roman culture?

Dear Frank IMC,

"Uh, you spelled "Einstein" wrong. ", shall we stop and check spellin of every thin, is that the best response you can do.

as for the rest #233

To learn why US GDP is higher than that of other countries you need to look at the reasons behind HOW the US maintians this, mainly control of Oil. Another huge discussion if you wanna (sorry about the spelling) go there

"Who, as you admit, took much of their knowledge from the Greeks"
Guess again Einstien, I only said that Arabs translated works of greek thinkers e.g. Plato. The development of Navigation, engineering etc. was sorry to say all in-house.

"was not aware that Jordan had a substantial amount of oil?"
Correct but, it is strategic in the control of the region. You have to admit, the state of the US ecomony would be disaterous is oil production in the middle east was dirrected to Russia, China, or Britain.

"The west was richer than the middle east in the 1800s"
richer how by colonilisation, by the rape and theft of other countries, namely Africa, China & India. Are we to forget that less than a hundred years ago blacks of america were fighting to go to same unisities as whites. And exactly how long ago was slavery abolished, the history of USA is tarnished by taking advandtage of other countries. Another point you wanna defend ?

"how you can claim that all of the wealth is "rightfully theirs"."
WOW, are you for real ?, it is thier because it is on their land.

"Substitute sources of energy would be found, and quickly. "
You think ? this is why for the past 60 years majority of USA focus has been on the middle east, it must be because they love the people sooo (sorry about the spellin) much

Now who Sponsored Usama Bin Laden- USA, WHO spnsired Saddam against his people- USA. Finaly we agree, USA is the root of all world terrorism.

yes, yes, of course, it's all a pluto-judaic-masonic conspiracy. I see you studied your Mein Kampf very well. or perhaps it's just spontaneous convergence of insanities. it happens.

who sponsored the Prophet Muhammad to write the manual for Jihad, then? there was no US back then.

Dear Frank IMC
#236 GROW UP !! have you read some of the statements on this forum. Please be fair in your critism, we should not adopt the double standards adopted by the GODS of this forum, the US government

And what do you mean by "YOUR history books", history is one account and the truth is clear for all.

#239

Dear Zaza,
"a pluto-judaic-masonic conspiracy""
PROVE IT with a response of equal substance !

I see you studied your Mein Kampf very well"

"who sponsored the Prophet Muhammad to write the manual for Jihad, then"

FACT IS USA did create Usama Bin Laden & Saddam, read the history books. USA also helped with the creation of Israel and its arsenal of Nuclear and chemical weapons, maybe you'll be calling ALL Israelis terrorists too ?

Frank IMC any comment to make to Zaza about growing up, OR becuase you agree with him there can be no critisim.

Frank IMC: he's a troll.

troll: "I only said that Arabs translated works of greek thinkers e.g. Plato" - again: into which language?

the oil: it brings a HUGE business to the Middle East. it's in the interests of the ME first of all to trade oil with the west. Now if only those profits weren't all plundered by dictatorial regimes and repressive monarchies for funding Jihad, maybe everyone in the Middle East would also be a lot wealthier and there'd be more market development than there is.

but no, it's all conveniently the fault of the evil imperialist enemy. the pinnacle of suicidal mentality: turn your dictators into heroes and liberators into imperialists. smart eh?

FYI: Some Facts, NO ONE can deny

Q. Who gave Saddam financial and military aide while he gassed his own people?
A. USA

Q. Who supplied Al-Qaeda with military tatics, bomb making expertise and weapon
A. USA

Q. Who Has Weapons Of Mass Distruciton In THe Middle East:
A. Israel

Dear Zaza,

This is troll as you like to like to refer to me (this must be some strange kind of alien affection).

Thanks

IN RESPONSE:
troll: "I only said that Arabs translated works of greek ENOUGH ABOUT THE GREEK TRANSLATIONS PLEASE. It's clear that you are not willing to even expand your mind to another opinion even just a little. Small minds worry about small things.

"brings a HUGE business to the Middle East"
Yes iut does Business for the Americans, mass sale of Coke, McDonalds, cancer stick, good healthy stuff.

"those profits weren't all plundered by dictatorial regimes and repressive monarchies"
I agree get rid of them all (as mentioned above), TELL THE USA TO STOP SUPPORTING THEM !!

"fault of the evil imperialist enemy. the pinnacle of suicidal mentality: turn your dictators into heroes"
I do not support NOR make hero of teh disgusting regimes in the middle east, From Arafat to Fahab to Hussain to saddam. They are all scum feeding of the wealth of their people by using oppression, OH I FORGOT TO MENTION, they are all supported BY no other than USA,

Search in google (under images) for Saddam & Rumsfeld, you will see pictures of Ols friend laughing, talking etc.

#232 -

Your constant refrain of "read your history books" proves your inability to argue your case. If you want to argue that, for example, the interaction between Greek and Roman culture is different than I, Zaza, and most others believe it to be, please STATE YOUR EVIDENCE. You are the one making the argument, it is YOUR responsibility to PROVE it. "I'm right because you can't prove me wrong" is NOT a logical debate.

Yes, Israel most likely does have WMDs. And have had them for years if not decades. And do I feel the least bit endangered by them? Not in the slightest.

Yes, supporting Saddam in the past was a mistake. But we DISCONTINUED that relationship. Are you suggesting that because we made this mistake in the past, we should atone for it by not doing anything about Saddam's regime now? It's not clear what your point is.

Just for the sake of facts: Saddam was "supported" by, ie. a business partner for, the whole west - in fact far more substantially by France (gave Iraq a nuclear reactor, mercifully short-lived) than by the US - inasmuch he was at the time a) containable and b) the lesser of evil in the face of super-hyper-fundamentalist Iran.

Today Saddam is not the lesser of evils but the top evil or one of the top evils and main obstacle to security to the west and in the middle east - and is no longer containable due to the nature of WMD and terrorist links, so he has to go.

I see no contradiction there. It's the real world and you gotta work with what you got.

what's the policy with trolls here?

Search in google (under images) for Saddam & Rumsfeld, you will see pictures of Ols friend laughing, talking etc.

I did just that, and I found exactly ONE image, shaking hands but not laughing.

And it was NOT inside a nuclear reactor, as with Chirac.

I think I'll ignore Zaza, as his intellect is not worth the effort.

BUT AS FOR Frank IMC, you seem to be bright, at least you have the freedom of thinking to explore different opinion be they different from yours.

I'm glad you saw the pic/pics of the Old buddies. This is the start to seeing the world in 3D, a opposed to Zaza.

We may never agree but the start of discussion is the first step towards understanding.

I am not here to defend The Americans, Arabs, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Isreali, BUT it is a shame that people of the world choose to see things with such simplicity, D Rumsfeld is no firend/uncle of yours, he don;t care about you, he want his oils money, the same as Saddam.

Defend the week, and uphold justice always.

Lets talk again.

Adios Friend

Sorry, One Further Point:

Take it with a pich of salt BUT, there are some fact on the following website you cannot deny:

Check Out The Following Site:
[Link: www.whatreallyhappened.com...]

Havn't read all of it, but was sent it recently.

Let me know your thoughts.

Blair force one you are a wanker:

1. Russia/France gave Saddam his conventional weapons. T72 tanks MIGs!!!

2. Saddams chem weapons came from cardoen Industries a South American company.

3. Israel has nukes so that genocidal maniac muslims won't kill them unless they PAY a HEAVY price
If you allahkillabots had nukes you will use them - witness confrontations with India - one day you scumballs will use them.

4. Arabs have nice food and interesting music. They preserved the Greco/Indian Hellenic intellectual heritage when Europe was LAST SWAMPED by BARBARIANS 1500 years ago- the Arabs ghaven't done much since.

I saw the picture. It was one picture, two people shaking hands, as diplomats would Like I said, it was not news to me, so nothing's changed. Mr. Rumsfeld and I have obviously never met, I don't know if we would be friends, but I definitely trust him to act in my interest much more than any of the other parties you mentioned.

I'm not clear on the "simplicity" you're talking about. You seem to think that because the Arabs preserved the knowledge of the west in a period of about two hundred years out of two thousand, after which they frittered it away, that somehow makes them intellectually superior to the west. I am indeed thankful to the Arabs for preserving this knowledge, but I am also thankful for the west for further increasing this body of knowledge. And I am deeply disappointed that the Arabs went into stagnation, due to their own internal issues.

#249

1 YES AND ALL THOSE MUSLIM KIDS BRINGING THEIR CAMERAS TO SCHOOL

2 THE MUSLIM STUDENT WHO TOLD HIS TEACHER THAT THE TWIN TOWERS WON'T BE THERE IN A FEW DAYS.

3 THE MUSLIM TAXI DRIVER WHO WOULDN'T DRIVE HIS PASSENGER A FURTHER FEW BLOCKS

I know what really happened and I know who did it. The best thing is for us in the west to deport you muslim megalomaniacs NOW.

#249 -

Regarding the website, the only thing that I "cannot deny" is that it once again proves that Jew-hatred and America-hatred are two sides of the same coin. I wouldn't have been surprised if there was an article on the etymology of the name "Rumfeld" and claiming it was Jewish. Please don't deface this site with such garbage again.

Even the title gives it away. Whenever I hear someone screaming about "what REALLY happened", I take the phone off the hook, roll over, and go back to sleep.

To Crusade Now, The name says it all, It is surrounded by defeat. In The past and in the future (no history lesons needed I'm sure).

It is amazing that you (My Crusade) have the nerve to asume I am Muslim. Is it so that anyone who opposes you Neo-Nazi stance is a Muslim, if so I'd rather stand on the side of a Muslim than narrow minded people. The same type of narrow thinking led to the terrible massarce of Jews in WWII. If you were around which side would you have been on I wonder ? Your name is so closley linked to the massarce of Jews & Muslims. Remember who defended the Jewish people when they were to cruely oppressed by the Europeans.

Frank IMC, I agree totally the disapointment of the Arab nation ultimatley only has itself to blame. As for the website it is something that was passed on to me, just thought I'd pass it on for comment (no need to get so touchy !). If anything it shares images of civillian casualties I hope even people on this forum can sympathise with.

If you choose to go back to sleep now when you are soooooo close is up to you. I don;t think so, despite everything you are keen and are intersted in seeking knowledge from falsehood, truth from false. After the tragedies of 9.11 the world is a smaller dangerous place, what we do not want is the creation of a thousand Bin Ladin's. Some of the opinions on this forum only cause further divisions between east and west, the good people of this earth should be trying to bridge these.

I hope you are one of them.........

To borrow a quote that was on another thread tonight - I'm guessing you think They Live is a documentary?

Oh please, anyone who links to the dirtiestliesonearth.com as Blair Force One did in post #249, should be dismissed immediately. You guys are wasting your time. Facts my ass. Go away.

#254 You already stand on the side of the muslims - and you call me a neo-nazi as you refer us to a site that blames the jews for 9/11 when we all know it was your friends the muslims.

Yes they were being massacred by Europeans 800 years ago and 50 years ago but today they are being massacred by muslims. They have also been massacred by muslims over the last 1300 years. I would n't call dhimmittude saving them. Why do u have the nerve to assume I am a christian? I chose this nick because we need to change the whole muslim way of thinking. If they don't change they need to LEAVE the west.

There are already thousands of Bin ladens. That is why we are fighting this war.

#32 - wrong ;) none other than stalin himself decried that there wasnt much of a difference between his ideology and that of most facists.

The difference between facism and communism? property. Thats about it. But not the lack of respect for it... just the existance of it. Do the math.

CRUSADE DUDE:
Al muslims leave the West, WOW, you're not a racist at all are you(lol), I suppose you hate Jews and black as well, I guess you think Mandela is a terrorist who should be locked up? How anyone but a Nazi can take you seriously is beyond me.

Secondly Mr Crusade's claims that muslims have been killing Jews for 1300 years. Muslims have been the only protectors of the Nobel Jewish faith and it's people for the last 1300 years, how else would you have the True Jewish nations all over the middle east alive and well today. Speak to teh Turkish, Iraqi, Somali, Arab Jews and see how they always seeked protection with the muslims.

I never assumed you are a christian, I never assumed you were anything more than a narrow minded facist.

Secondly I'm sure anyone one with such a norrow mind could never understand any complex ideologies such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc. Your rantings are no more than ignorance like that of Hitler, Saddam and all teh other facist dictator.

Truth is You'll never get rid of the muslims, you will sit in your little rooms talking over on chat groups while the world over takes you. Instead you should look to understand and unite for Freedom, Justice & Equality.

Crusade NEVER mix a Zionist with Judaism the nobel religion of Abraham, David, Moses etc. The site you so charmingly call 'dirtiesliesonearth.com' (how old are you 12 ?) refers to Zionists, they are TWO very different things. If you wanna have this discussion I'm ready, fire away !!

Frank IMC, don't get your point on #255, sorry.

Finally WE are fighting this war because WE want to live our nice lives at the expence of others, therefore we steal the wealth of other countries for our own gains. I suppose you will also deny the black slavery trade was a bad thing !

Why is everyone on this site SO opposed to different points of view, how is your attitude any different from that of Saddam who wishes to crush all that differ with him. Think again guys, do you really want the same characteristics as Saddam ?

Why is everyone on this site SO opposed to different points of view

Er, it might be because that same point of view resulted in millions being murdered about sixty years ago?

I'm guessing you've never talked to Jews from Iraq, Iran, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, or Yemen, have you?

Anyone who tries to make the argument that "they are not the TRUE Jews, just Babylonian/Talmudic/Khazarian/Zionist impostors" has written themselves off in my book.

Goodbye.

Blair Force One (#259)

Firstly, it was me, not Crusade Now who said that about that filthy lying site.

Crusade NEVER mix a Zionist with Judaism the nobel religion of Abraham, David, Moses etc. The site you so charmingly call 'dirtiesliesonearth.com' (how old are you 12 ?) refers to Zionists, they are TWO very different things. If you wanna have this discussion I'm ready, fire away !!

Secondly, what exactly are "TWO very different things? You're babbling. Please clarify.

Think again guys, do you really want the same characteristics as Saddam ?

Oh, brilliant stuff (applause) and you have the nerve to ask me if I'm 12? Grow up yourself. Actually, rather shut up with your nonsense. Your post is ridiculous.

Read The Following To Open Your Minds:

US Double Standards Highlighted IN British Press:
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Assault on Iraq is based on lies, greed and ignorance IN British Press:
[Link: www.mirror.co.uk...]

American Peace-activist's Memorial Service Disrupted By Israeli Forces
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

SIX DAYS OF SHAME
[Link: www.mirror.co.uk...]

In the long hours of darkness, Baghdad shakes to the constant low rumble of B-52s:
[Link: argument.independent.co.uk...]

GO TO [Link: www.drudgereport.com...] and see the news from AROUND THE WORLD Not just from the imperialist Gods you al seem to folllow.

Blair Force One (#262)

Thanks for the links to al-Guardian, Robert Fisk's sick mind, the Mirror, etc. Forwarded a couple of those to Honest Reporting and CAMERA. What's your point?

From al-Guardian:

The 23 year-old activist with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) was trying to prevent the destruction of Palestinian homes by the Israelis when she was hit by the bulldozer

One. Lie. After. Another. Try again, and this time with more honest sources, mmmkay? I'm glad to see where you get your "news" (read: opinion) from. It puts things into perspective and helps me to understand you better. No wonder you're so full of it.

zuluBABY

The articles refered to above are all writen by respected international journalists. Have you ever read articles from those you critise or do you simply make up your mind based on emotion.

As for Pictures, there are hundred vailable it just seems the establishment media seem to never mention the murder of women & children, remember 40% of Iraq population is under 16. Justr search the web and see the pain left behind due to this greedy war.

Regarding Rachel Corrie, WHAT IS A LIE, the pictures say it all pictures at: [Link: www.palsolidarity.org...]
She sttod infront of a Buldozer in a ORANGE jacket and it ran over her !! WHAT LIES YOU ARE LIVING IN A DREAM !!

My point is zuluBABY that the opions on this site are the EXACT same as ones that "resulted in millions being murdered about sixty years ago" & the same that have resulted in the genocide of the semtic palestinians, it is their that has been invaded by and apprtheid imposed upon them by the european Zionist.

As for the argument of liberating Iraq from a dictator HAH !, the same argument used in the Afghan war (where over 6000 innocent civillians were killed). WHO did the US allie with then General DOSTUN a MASS MURDERER, who has children exceuted for entertainment. Where is the so called aide promised to the Afghans, where is the democracy promised, OR have the Oil contracts now been signed ! Truth is the US will partner with anyone as long as there is some profit in it.

Frank IMC,

Hi Y'all, ONLY ME !!

I must disagree with you here; if you look at which type of attitude "resulted in millions being murdered about sixty years ago" was it the one that said:
1. Let all try to understand one another and see how we can live with our differences
OR WAS IT
2. Lets destroy and support the destroyers of anyone (young, old, men & women) we differ with.
The old Ghetto KILL THEM BEFORE THEY KILL US attitude, well we all know where that story ends.

In fact In my travel I have many times spoken to Jews from Iraq, Iran, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, or Yemen, have you? ALSO you may be shocked to hear I have GOOD friends who are JEWISH, CHRISTIAN, MUSLIM, BLACK, WHITE etc.

This might shock you but let me let you in to a secret .......... not all muslims are bad.

By True Jews I meant the people who can clearly trace back their roots to the tribes of Moses. All the others like any other religion will have a level of dilution in tehir teaching as time passed and they moved from place to place. THis is seen in all religions such as Islam & Chritianity. The true people are the ones who stick to the origonal text not innovation.

I have no position to state who is Jewish and who is not.

WHAT I do say is that there is a clear distiction between Zionism and traditional Judaic teachings, e.g. mainly the establishment of a Jewish state BEFORE the arrival of teh messiah amongst many others.

Please take time to read the articles I posted above, reject them if you wish (which I'm sure you will) BUT do read them.

Have A Good One. ADIOS AMIGOS

sorry no intention to feed the trolls but just one correction to one non-fact in a deluge of dinsiformation:

in the Afghan war (where over 6000 innocent civillians were killed).

that's nonsense, the most reliable and realistic "count" from humanitarian agencies and the press was in the hundreds.

far less than died ordinarily in the war between talebans and the anti-taleban forces, or among the population killed by talebans, or tortured or starting because of the talebans.

and you fell for their propaganda!

see:

[Link: www.comw.org...]

One factor contributing to inflated estimates was the distortion of casualty reports by the Taliban regime. Afghan journalists have told AP that Taliban officials systematically doctored reports of civilian deaths to push their estimate to 1,500 in the first three weeks of the war in an attempt to galvanize opposition to the bombing.

"Our chief was from the Taliban. His deputy from the Taliban. The information minister was from the Taliban," said one journalist, Mohammed Ismail. "We could not do our jobs. We could not tell the truth."

....
AP reporters visited these areas during the course of the war and gathered data on civilian casualties. Their reporting and other reliable counts - by no means complete - in the months since then suggest a civilian death toll ranging from 500 to 600.

[Link: www.usnews.com...]

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

also:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

When and if any kind of accurate accounting becomes possible, there is some basis for comparison. NATO aircraft flew more than 38,000 combat sorties over the former Yugoslavia during the 78-day Kosovo air campaign in 1999, many more than during the nearly three months of the Afghan war.

According to an after-the-fact accounting done on the ground by Human Rights Watch, about 500 civilians died in 90 NATO bombing incidents in Yugoslavia, a figure far higher than NATO acknowledged at the time. Nearly a year after that operation ended, NATO reported that "the actual toll in human lives will never be precisely known," but it noted that the Human Rights Watch estimate was "far lower" than the thousands of deaths claimed by the Yugoslavs.

so it's your choice: believe the likes of Milosevic, bin Laden, Mullah Omar, Saddam, dictators, murderers and terrorists, or have some common sense.

zazaBABY !!!!!

Just to let you know when quoting figures use independent figures. GIVE ME A BREAK even on this you quote ALL US sources. Talk about narrow minded, not even that WASHINGTON HUH, you take the fat cats there as your source of info. You;re kiddin yourself zuzu.

Now Check these out these figures (NOTE: none of them are from Taleban sources):

BBC - Afghan civilians killed by US bombs has surpassed the death toll of the 11...3,800 Afghans died...according to a study by an American academic...:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Guardian - on the basis of previous experience of the effects of carpet-bombing, to be upwards of 10,000:
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

And some US news just for you:
CNN - airstrikes that killed dozens of civilians at an Afghan wedding party:
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Open your eyes, there are signs around for those that want to learn. Stop living in the Matrix.

I guess these figures don't bother you, it is of course only a bunch of muslims !!!!! Is your conscience DEAD !!!

so zuzuBABY it's your choice: believe the likes of
Donald Rumsfeld, Milosevic, bin Laden, Mullah Omar, Saddam, ARIEL SHARON, GEORGE W BUSH, dictators, murderers and terrorists, US government officials, or have some common sense.

Keep feedin the Troll Dude !!
[Link: www.museum-london.org.uk...]

Just look at the difference in what you see:

British Media today Main Headline:
'Many dead' after Baghdad shops hit
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

US Media today Main Headline:
Stiff resistance after first week of war
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Arab Media today Main Headline:
US delegation arrived in Amman, in its way to Baghdad for ceasefire negotiations
[Link: www.aljazeerah.info...]

Totally different. I'm sure if you read the Chinese or Russian press they too will be different

Open Your Minds !!

There are mass protests all over the world.

But this is because all these people have been DUPED!

They think they are fighting for humanity or simplictically think that "war = wrong."

And so with that mentality they become the unwitting pawns to Muslims.

Muslims whos only motivation is to make everyone in the world follow their faith.

They are taking advantage of the freedom of expression in our country to be used against us.

And they take advantage of the idealism of youth, and every beautiful thing that freedom brings to make stupid innocent protestors fight for a future under Sharia law.

Bliar Force One (#264) (Your typo, not mine. Appropriate though.)

You fucking idiot. zulubaby and zaza are two different people. A few posts ago you responded to Crusade Now about something I had written. Lay off the cheap crack would ya?

The articles refered to above are all writen by respected international journalists. Have you ever read articles from those you critise or do you simply make up your mind based on emotion.

Respected!? By whom? You? I have no respect for al-Guardian or Robert Fisk or whatever else you puked up. Now answer me this: How would I be able to form an opinion without having read the articles written by those "respected international journalists"? Hmmm?

You are an absolute waste of time. Nice work on making fun of my name, and zaza's. How old are you? 10?

She sttod infront of a Buldozer in a ORANGE jacket and it ran over her !! WHAT LIES YOU ARE LIVING IN A DREAM !!

What was she doing standing in front of a bulldozer in the first place, Mr. Smarty Pants? She was a terrorist-sympathizer, she was obviously not as brilliant as you are, and while I don't celebrate her death, I couldn't care less about it either. Orange jacket or not, she had no right to get in the way of the work the IDF were doing. What do you know anyway?

From #267 to zaza, you wrote:

Talk about narrow minded, not even that WASHINGTON HUH, you take the fat cats there as your source of info. You;re kiddin yourself zuzu.

And you take the BBC, al-Guardian, Robert Fisk, ISM (palsolidarity.org). al-Jazeera, whatreallyhappened.com as your source of information, none of which I put much of anything into. So we use different media outlets as our news sources. What makes you right?

I'm sure the news below will make some of you happy!
'Many Children dead' in Baghdad blast :
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Great Fierce Warriors, what happens when the it comes to ground war?
Conflict sapping US forces' morale:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Rumsfeld's war plans criticised as problems mount:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

SURPRISE SURPRISE:
US & British Lies - OUR LUKE WAS NOT EXECUTED:
[Link: www.mirror.co.uk...]

Occupation, it's a hard game !!
BASRA 'NOWHERE NEAR' UNDER ALLIED CONTROL:
[Link: www.mirror.co.uk...]