If it wasn't for Schadenfreude, the little freaks would never be happy at all...

Again, the Paleostinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Beasts. I hope they're next. After the Fraudis, of course.

Well said #2, couldn't put it better

simply put....

ignorance is bliss

these poor bastards are drones of a failing regime, very sad but yet incredibly stupid.

And for this, they will get a state?

Having the Palestinian's on your side is like having your favorite team on the cover of Sport Illustrated for 5 weeks in a row before the big game.

#7

It's like being a Red Sox fan...

These guys have just GOT to stop smokin' whatever the heck they're smokin'.

I'm just speechless at the sheer bloody-mindedness of these dopes.

Is it wishful thinking or perhaps projection that makes these losers think we'll give up just because the Iraqis have a few of our people? Do they know what's in store for the pond scum that shot those soldiers in the head?

The mind boggles.

The only roadmap the "palestinians" deserve is a roadmap to Iraq.

I'm looking at my Roadmap to Peace right now. Here's where it ends.

just bulldoze them baby

#6

Caton, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Why can't one single freaking mainstream news report this and let the American viewers see with their very own eyes what kind of animals the Palis are?!?!? heeeelllllllloooooooooo???

JG

The American and British soldiers are cowards and spoiled kids.

You wish, towelie. I double dog dare you to say that to the face of an American soldier. I'll even help you look for your teeth afterwards.

Have you ever noticed that Palesitinian support comes primarily from the American far left and the French --- two groups primarily notable for cowardice, temper tantrums, incoherent philosophy, and an aversion to personal hygiene?

Gotta love those freedom loving Palestinians.

The paleos forget that the monsoon season was a major reason, i'd say the biggest reason, why the vietnam war was lost. we'd dominate with our air power, then when we couldn't use it, the VC would take back forward postions. not to mention it was a freaking jungle: no visibility, malaria. And we have no "friendly" Iraqis fighting alongside us to get confused with the enemy. Though the bastards are faking their surrenders, we still tow the humanitarian line. oh and last time i checked there weren't any monsoons in Iraq, not to mention it's desert. no sneaking through the trees for these bastards

And we're going to give these animals their own state ... because why, again?

W.

The Iraqis are much better at war because they have more experience.

I guess being a two time loser is an admirable quality for the paleostinians.

OT:

GLA/2003/122
24 March 2003 FOR IMMEDIATE USE

Mandela “very proud” over statue for
Trafalgar Square

In a phone call with the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, today, Nelson Mandela expressed his appreciation for the work being carried out to erect a statue in his honour in Trafalgar Square.

Dr Mandela told Mr Livingstone:

'I want to thank you for what you are doing to honour me. An honour like this from the London authority is above everything I expected. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am very proud.'

Ken Livingstone will relay Dr Mandela's thanks to those who are helping to honour him tonight at reception in City Hall. The reception will launch an appeal to raise funds for the statue.

Mr Livingstone will say:

“There is no better place for a statue of Nelson Mandela than Trafalgar Square. In Nelson Mandela we have someone who in their life has summed up the triumph over injustice.

“I’d like to make a special appeal to Londoners to make a donation to the Mandela Statue Fund, however small, so that the Mandela statue is a tribute from the people of London as much as it is a tribute from the people of Britain.”

Ends

Notes to editors

1. The Mandela Statue Fund will be launched at a reception at City Hall at 6.30pm.

2. Ken Livingstone, Rt Hon Tony Blair, Rt Hon Ian Duncan Smith MP, and Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP are among the honorary patrons of the Nelson Mandela Statue Fund.

3. The Trustees of the Nelson Mandela Statue Fund are; Lord Attenborough, Wendy Woods and Iqbal Meer.
4. Donations should be sent to: Mandela Statue Fund, PO Box 768A, Surbiton KT6 6W7

#2 - well said.

It figures that the Palestinians think that a snafu that left an incredibly small number of Americans killed, wounded, POW, or MIA, means that the Iraqis are winning. The other 250,000 coalition forces are within spitting distance of Baghdad, the Hussein boys may already be dead, dad is likely injured if not already dead, and the rest of the Iraqi military hasn't realized their ship left before the first aerial bombardment last week.

If there's a sure thing in this life, it apparently is that the Palestinians pick the losers in a conflict every time.

I've come to the conclusion that the Islamic world is clinically delusional. Yesterday's NYT had an interview with Iraqi gentleman from one liberated area. He spoke of how miserable their lot has been under Saddam. The war with Iran. The war with Kuwait. Sanctions. His conclusion? Saddam is an American agent. So, Charles, on your poll, "can democaracy take hold in Iraq?", I'm going to vote 'no'. Democracy requires a modicum understanding of reality, Michael Moore notwithstanding.

Many Palestinians said that for the first time since the war broke out, they are finally able to walk around with a sense of pride. "Until yesterday [Sunday], the feeling here was bad," says a Palestinian journalist. "But when the pictures of the American prisoners and bodies of soldiers were shown on TV, there was a lot of excitement. It's very moving to watch Arab soldiers taking defeating American and British soldiers and killing them. Saddam is now more popular than ever. The people here adore him. The feeling here is that Saddam has restored Arab confidence and dignity."

What do you do with people who think this is a demonstration of dignity? Who are moved by this? I'm at a loss.

Well the chumps will be glad to know that their tireless militarism and religion-soaked fanatical hatred has made Israel the world's #3 arms and services exporter, even beating out Russia. Good job morons.

And we're going to give these animals their own state ... because why, again?

Because it's at the expense of the J-E-W-S.

(Quite, dispassionate voice) This makes me extremely angry.

Saddam's forces use war crimes as integral elements of their tactical doctrine. Human shields. Brutalization of POWs. Attacking with units that feign surrender, or conceal themselves in civilian dress.

Why shouldn't the Palestinians celebrate Iraqi military accomplishments? Iraq and the Palestinians fight the same way. They slander their opponent as an unconscionable aggressor, but in fact count on their opponent to fight honorably no matter how vile the tactics the opponent faces.

This war is going to be a disaster for the Palestinians, because every time they strike out at Israel from now on, with a terrorist infiltrator disguised as a Jew or an Arab worker, or with ambulances used to transport fighters or weapons, or with firefights with Israelis initiated in heavily populated areas, or by lynching an Israeli soldier or civilian, U.S. and coalition military and civilian leaders are going to look at what is happening and say--the Palestinians are using the same damned tactics that the Iraqis did.

Just as Arafat had no idea that 9/11 was going to change American tolerance for his continued use of terrorism, the Palestinians have no idea of the impact that Gulf War II is having on their continued ability to paint Israel as a brutal aggressor.

I know that this will garner hate mail, but:

These...creatures are beyond help. They are so stupid and morally retarded that they belive anything that falls from an Arab or Muslim mouth. They will cheer a man who has murdered 1.5million of their "brothers".
These things deserve all the pain that can possibly be inflicted upon them.
There are no discernible indications that they feel compassion for fellow humans. The death of one of their own is just an excuse to hold a "rally" of violence, rabid anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism. They mourn only the fact that a mujahadeen has finished his work without killing more innocents.
They are disgusting and morally represhensible.

They are human in species only.

#24:

I mean, "quiet, dispassionate voice".

Latest reports are that Bush either will or maybe will not wait until he finishes the war in Iraq before he publishes hte Quartet Roadmap to sell out Israel to a PLO State.

Also, a woman in the House of Commons has just been praising Tony Blair for his achievement in persuading Bush to hurry up with the sell-out of Israel.
There seems no likely chance that these displays of hatred for the US will deter Bush with going ahead with his Roadmap anyway.

Can Congress and public opinion put a roadblock there?

Saddam's got to be proud (watching from the fifth circle) that his money not only bought the Pal's support, but also their sanity.

Do these sheepfuckers really think a dozen or two casualties will make the most powerful, largest military on the planet back down to a bunch of deluded fanatics? Do they think Saddam has a chance?

They have 5 or our guys. We have taken the willing surrender of over 10,000 of theirs. Even if we didn't have the most advanced fighting force on the planet, with a capture ratio like that, the Iraqis would have to have to have over a billion men under arms to break even. Deluded fools.

Even if they hurt our men (even publicly), the USA will never, never back down to kidnappers and tourturers.

On the way back over, we should drop a battalion or two on Gaza and the West bank (probably just need a brigade, but let's keep with the shock & awe). Pummel some respect into the Palis. Gutless, dickless, worthless pieces of filth. They're not fit to lick the boots of one of our soldiers.

The war on terror anin't over until the USMC delivers a whole lotta' payback on Hizbullah. That day will come and it will mean the end of the Palestinians if they're still around by then.

one word....ANIMALS.

Re: my comment in #31. I apologize to all animals. My bad.

well, I guess it time for us to send the Pals more aid..

Troll prediction: I'm waiting to read "that's just what you're doing you racist hypocrites!!!!!!!!"

#32 kathyn

Smart move. My goldfish is very angry at you.

This will have no effect on US policy toward the Palestinians, but may have an effect on public opinion, like their more-candy-than-halloween celebrations of 9/11.

Because they are the enemies of the Jews, the rules do not apply to them. This will not make the administration want to shun the palestinians, rather it will make it more likely that the US will bend over backwards to placate them, to prove that they are not against all muslims.

Israel will be offered as the pascal lamb to help heal the battered friendships with the Arabs and Europe. It has never been about Palestinian behavior, rather it has been about Jewish self-determination. The world not does not like Jews, especially Jews with guns. So long as the jews are the enemy of the Palestinians, all focus is off their behavior.

If any president can break this chain of rescuing the Palestinians from their bad decisions, it is Bush, but there will be relentless pressure on him to impose the quartet roadmap on Israel and to treat the parties as equals. It is the manner of history in the past 60 years that Israel is the only country that wins on the battlefield but must sue for peace.

Troll prediction: I'm waiting to read "that's just what you're doing you racist hypocrites!!!!!!!!"

You know what I have to say to trolls and protestors alike?

Hey! It's called deodorant! It's not expensive!

#29 hobgoblin
Even if they hurt our men (even publicly), the USA will never, never back down to kidnappers and tourturers.

Well, hezbollah got us to turn tail in Beirut, and got us to lean on Israel to do same . . . small wonder these nitwits think that an American bloody nose will end the fight.

The Palestinian views expressed are certainly consistant with what one would expect after hearing of the propaganda they are fed. Of course they are going to dislike the U.S. They are told that the US is responsible for all the disapointments that they have experianced at the hands of the Jews.

Its perfectly logical for them to feel that the US will have second thoughts after seeing our soldiers being treated so badly. The Arabs have seen how the U.S. values the lives of our troops. They know that not long ago the U.S. pulled out after the 18 soldiers were killed in Somalia.

The Palestinians have received a great deal of support from Saddam and naturally they have sympaties for him. What is interesting to note is they don't seem to say anything about the Iraqi people who are suffering.

We need to feel pitty for the average Palestinians and Arabs in general and hope one day real soon they will rise up and kill their corrupt leadership like the dogs that they are.

"The American and British soldiers are cowards and spoiled kids."

Here's hoping a bunch of emigres from Crown Heights and Golders Green build a bunch of nice, brand new settlements on top of the bulldozed house of the creep who said that.

Yes, it is amazing how blind some can be. U.S. forces are 50 miles from Bagdad, but somehow are losing the war? The Palestinians better not be smiling too wide when the sh*t hits the fan. The British and Americans are about to put paid to Saddam's rebate scheme for Palestinian terrorists.

#38 next!

Well, hezbollah got us to turn tail in Beirut, and got us to lean on Israel to do same . . . small wonder these nitwits think that an American bloody nose will end the fight.

Uh, yeah, not to mention: Somalia, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Kenya, Tanzania ...

We've run from (or ignored) a lot of battles, and now protesters think we should run from this as well, fascinating strategy - "run and hide, everything will turn out ok."

#38 next!

agreed. But hezbolla had the advantage of being "stateless" (unless you consider the Bekkaa valley a cohesive, bombable nation).

The mass of Palestinians, densely packed along the Gaza, makes a great place to start testing the MOAB against organic targets.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

....Saddam decided two months ago to secure some of his most dangerous technologies, along with some of his most skilled scientists. To that end, Iraq and Syria signed a joint agreement on nuclear, biological and chemical weapons in Damascus on Jan. 17. As a sign of good will, Saddam sent Bashar Assad some samples: three CDs with mathematical formulae dealing with nuclear explosions; three test tubes loaded with anthrax and botulinum spores, and detailed analyses of tests carried out with these poisons on human subjects in Iraqi prisons. ..

C.

Uh, yeah, not to mention: Somalia, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, Kenya, Tanzania ...

Oh, and of course, in their eyes, Gulf War I.

The paleos forget that the monsoon season was a major reason, i'd say the biggest reason, why the vietnam war was lost. we'd dominate with our air p

If we lost the war, as you say, then tell me what american army was defeated/surrended in the field-

You see, I know that we utterly destroyed N.Vietnamese Regular army units whenever they lifted their heads- a whole army during the tet Offensive alone. So when you see we "lost" just how do you mean that?

I would suggest you read Hackworth and General Giap's memoirs before you sput such drivel.

THe idea we lost the VN war is nothing more then leftist drivel - by 1969 there were more 6 ft tall Viet namese "regulars" then were "average hight (can say like 5'4"?) in the field- clearly meaning we were fighting Chinese regulars since there were no longer enough NVN to fill the ranks.

Repeat after me: "in the last two-hundred years, no armerican ARMY has been defeated in the field by a foreign power"

and in the next breath they'll bitch and moan about american one-sided support of israel.

arrrghhh.

#29 hobgoblin

You may be too young to rememeber but there was a time when Arabs were kidnaping westerners including US military officers and made demands of this countrie's political leadership.

Publiclly those leaders did say they would not negotiate but in reality a concept was born called "Arms for Hostages."

One of the key figures was Olie North (now a NBC semi-reporter). Guns were given and some of the hostages were returned. The military hostages were murdered.

David Horowitz on Fox right now, talking about the Black Block.

#42 hobgoblin
#38 next!
agreed. But hezbolla had the advantage of being "stateless" (unless you consider the Bekkaa valley a cohesive, bombable nation).

"Nation"? No.

"Cohesive"? Yer getting warmer . . .

"Bombable"? Ayuh.

Okay, one(point-five) outta three not good enough for you? Syria would seem to meet all three criteria.

f any president can break this chain of rescuing the Palestinians from their bad decisions, it is Bush, but there will be relentless pressure on him to impose the quartet roadmap on Israel and to treat the parties as equals. It is the manner of history in the past 60 years that Israel is the only country that wins on the battlefield but must sue for peace.

I don't think so, I think Liebermann is the potential front runner in 2004 in the Dem camp - he is the only one pro war and pro Isreal- Bush will have to counter that. Republicans have been increasing their status amongst the Jewish voters in this country, it would be, I think, suicidal to hurt that.

So when is Peter Jennings going to interview Hanaan Ashrawi so she can tell us that most of the Palestinians were really 'openly weeping?'

W.

# 50

OOooh, truly Machiavellian thoughts-

If Liebermann gets knocked out of the running- Bush should shift Cheny to Sec of State and get Liebermann to run as his vice president-

What a major coup!!!!!!!!!

And if not Vice President, Sec. Of State!

#50 Robert,

Putting Lieberman on the Democratic ticket is the only sure way to get all 6 million Muslims to vote Republican.

.. And we will still reward them handsomely!

Guess what!?

No matter what the PLO arab terrorirsts do we will still give them whatever they ask of us.

We will surely lose if we cannot be honest with ourselves when the enemy says they want to kill us and we ignore that.

So when is Peter Jennings going to interview Hanaan Ashrawi so she can tell us that most of the Palestinians were really 'openly weeping?'

That bitch katy Couric on NBC interviewed (very sympathetically, i might add) the Iraqi UN ambassador this morning, allowing him to reiterate the Iraqi claim they are destroying US troops and will anihlate them in the streets of Baghdad,

N.Y.'rs should throwing rocks through their damn windows for that BS

#20 lawhawk
Soon Arafish will go the way of Saddam and Osama, then we will see how happy they are. They have got to be the stupidest species on this planet. They are nothing but two legged animals.

Horowitz says on Fox that Michael Moore is a communist, anarchist, and racist.

#45 Robert Brandtjen

Repeat after me: "in the last two-hundred years, no armerican ARMY has been defeated in the field by a foreign power"

Let's keep our facts straight, shall we? Once. May 6th, 1942, Philippines.

American soldiers in Somalia were as brave as they come. The inhabitant of the White House was a craven coward.

Yeah, I know, I'm a Clinton-Hater, but at least I never compared him to Hitler.

Eddie Haskell, Mayor McCheese and Buck-Henry's-child-molester-character-from-the-old SNL definitely, but never Hitler.

In response to the PLO's paraded joy of Americans death in Iraq:

CIA sets up department to implement the road map

We cannot win if we cannot be honest with oursleves.

Putting Lieberman on the Democratic ticket is the only sure way to get all 6 million Muslims to vote Republican.

Jews are better "behind the scenes" politicos then the muslims though - they havne't enough experience with what actually wins ellections, wittness what they did to Kenny- major coup against her and her father.

#47 MikeO

Being old enough to appreciate being carded now (which happens less and less unfortunately), I remember Ollie North well. In respect to my elders (or one who perceives himself as such), allow me to disagree with your tying of an utterly failed plan with the current situation.

The "arms for hostages" was a negotiation attempt that died the death it deserved.

[Link: www.washington-report.org...]

We are at war with Iraq, in a way not even resembling our 1984--86 relations with Iran. My point (aside from venting) was that these captures and torture will only harden our resolve to wipe the Baathist regime from the earth. A dozen casualties is virtually nothing, especially in light of the mass Iraqi defections. And we are certainly not going to negotiate peace terms for 5 POWs.

I won't be so bold as to call you a troll, but why bring up the Iranian kidnapping event in the context of the current POW situation? Or do you just have a problem with Reagan and North?

I don't consider the Iraqi regime to be "terrorists" in the Iranian sense. Please enlighten us with a point, if you have one.

OT: Orthodox Jew attacked outside crowded Berlin cafe; received no assistance from onlookers (Jerusalem Post).

Hi Good Folks, I can't stay about to debate - too much delinquent work to finish today - but I'm reposting this from a recent Eidelberg piece. Every bit of help we J-E-W-S can get from freedom loving Americans to help fight the Quartet Plan and US Dept of State is desperately needed, because this is happening FAST. (Just listen to what Blair has been saying last few days to quell discontent in the British Parliament)
However, as Eidelberg illustrates - in the end it is up to the Israeli electorate to take steps to protect their interests, if necessary with civil disobediance (yes, even in wartime - when is it NOT wartime in Israel for the last 55 years? - "if not now, WHEN?"
{BTW, I'm NOT trolling - I'll be around later this week if someone needs clarification.... :-)}
Please go to the Yamin site: - [Link: www.yamin.org...] and read up on why Israel desperately needs a CONSTITUTION.
You'll find the stuff under Policy Papers - 4 articles, VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW, guys....

Yamin Israel’s Plan to Prevent a Palestinian State

By Prof. Paul Eidelberg

Back in June 1996, a Gallup poll indicated that 68% of the Israel public think a law should be passed to require Knesset ratification of peace agreements, while 25% think such a law is unnecessary.
(There is no current legal requirement for Knesset ratification. Although virtually all Governments submit treaties to the Knesset, Knesset “approval” is automatic given the Government’s control of the Knesset majority.)

The poll also asked all those who favored the law in question, whether peace agreements should require a two-thirds majority to pass, or whether a simple majority was enough. 53% of those wanted a law favored a two-thirds majority, while 36% thought a simple majority was sufficient.

Accordingly, Yamin Israel urges the National Union and the religious parties (Mafdal, Shas, and Torah United) to co-sponsor a bill to amend Basic Law: The Government, to the effect that any peace treaty entered into by the Government with a foreign state or entity will require the ratification of two-thirds of a Knesset plenum (80 votes).

Such an amendment should prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, assuming the following line-up of opponents: the religious parties—22 votes; National Union—7 votes; Likud—12 votes (of its 38 members).

Even though a large majority of the public now opposes a Palestinians state, Yamin Israel warns that a referendum should be resisted in view of the Government’s ability to manipulate the unwary with the help of the left-wing dominated media.

#59 Dorothy Rabinowitz wrote a wonderful tribute to them.
[Link: www.opinionjournal.com...]

I've had occasion to talk to many Palestinians and Israeli Arabs in the past years, on a pretty frank basis. I believe they do not hate the Americans. They are merely jealous. Their mentality is such that the world owes them... They yearn to live in the US and/or Europe but once there, they bring their lifestyle and mentality with them.

They complain bitterly about being profiled and searched at the airports in Israel. I once asked one if he thought the Jews of Iran, Iraq or Syria had it better. He conceded that probably not, but continued whining incessantly about how unfair Israel is to the Arabs (Israeli Arabs)..

Somewhere along the line, these people have understood that their whining works. European tourists here in Eilat (when they used to come) listened intently and sympathized with their plights, especially the young European women. I've known quite a few Arabs who have married Europeans girls and ran off to Europe... for a time. They come back to Israel and whine that the Europeans didn't respect them etc... and that Israelis treat them better...

C.

#23 - the Israelis make a great holster - I have a kydex Fobus holster for concealed carry, and it was both inexpensive and of great quality.

All of you with Carry permits are packin' heat I hope. Let them try that suicide bomber sh-t over here, and it will be terrorist target practice.

Terrorist scumbags should be aware that most Americans think Michael Moore and company are lying opportunists, and have no compunction about arming ourselves, or using our firearms to defend ourselves, our loved ones, our neighbors - or hell, our property.

Remember FOBUS when you need to buy a holster - support Israel!

This sort of reaction is one of the many reasons why we needed to invade Iraq. As VDH writes:

The truth is that there is a great storm on the horizon, one that will pass — or bring upon us a hard rain the likes of which we have not seen in 60 years. Either we shall say "no more," deal with Iraq, and prepare for a long and hard war against murderers and terrorists — or we will have more and more of what happened on 9/11. History teaches us that certain nations, certain peoples, and certain religions at peculiar periods in their history take a momentary, but deadly leave of their senses — Napoleon's France for most of a decade, the southern states in 1861, Japan in 1931, Germany in 1939, and Russia after World War II. And when they do, they cannot be bribed, apologized to, or sweet-talked — only defeated.

In that context, we see much of a whipped-up Arab world entering this similar period of dangerous unreality. The problem is them and their unelected and unfree regimes, not us — just as it was Hitler, not us; Tojo, not us; Mussolini, not us; and Stalin, not us — just as it always is when unelected maniacs take control and hijack an entire country and culture. We can either step up and stop Islamic fundamentalism, Arab terrorists, and Middle Eastern dictators or we can step back and watch it all continue to grow. If 9/11 was the beginning of a war, then we should remember that wars usually end when one, not both sides, win.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Let's keep our facts straight, shall we? Once. May 6th, 1942, Philippines.

That's not really fair - Rosevelt promised air and navel support to MacArthur, and then, in true DEM weenie fashion (Roosevelt was scared to death of loosing the next election to MacArthur - who was adored by the American populace) reneged. I doubt Mac would have chosen the defence (and it was really only a division, not an army) that he did had he known Roosevelt would leave him hanging high and dry in order to knock him down a few notches.

Truman got his cue from Roosevelt during the Korean conflict, another Dem weenie who fought a "police action" rather then all out war such as Mac wanted.

On the other hand, there is some truth in what the Arabs claim about the US, we have an awful lot of sissies in this country. After 9/11, american message boards were crammed with pleas for Clinton to return, since they all "knew clinton would never go to war, and Bush just might".

It was sad, they wouldn't even defend their own country, that is sad. and of course those who talk to Arabs over seas tend to be members of the defeatist left from this country - cowards all

I've known quite a few Arabs who have married Europeans girls and ran off to Europe... for a time. They come back to Israel and whine that the Europeans didn't respect them etc... and that Israelis treat them better...

I heard a rabbi in Israel explain something similar.
A young arab israeli cannot "date" girls from his village,
he has to either marry them or not. In college he is tere with Jewish Israeli who have already done 2-3 years in the army and are older then him and he cannot date them. SO who can he date? 20 something Jewish American tourists having a fun time in Israel ( this was before Oslo and daily bus bombings). The sad part was that for the women it was a fling that might piss off their parents, for the arab men it was a heartbreak and they kept writing the women letters long after the women had returned to America and moved on.

#49

Syria sounds good, but I want the Palis to feel the pain they so deleriously love to see inflicted on our brave troops.

BTW, my brother (in-law) is in the 101 Airborne under the 1st brigade command, and Col. Hodges. He was lucky not to be in the command tent when Sgt. Assfuck Ibn al-Asshole rolled in the grenades, but Capt. Greg Holden, a friend of my brother's, was injured. Not sure how serious, but not life-threatening. Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers.

#69 Robert Brandtjen

My point is that, while Iraq still claims they won GWI, the U.S. does not need this kind of propaganda. That's all.

This said, 8 years of Clinton have obviously damaged the U.S. image. But it's being corrected live on CNN.

As they march through the streets, the girls, some aged less than 10, urge the Iraqi leader to eliminate Israel: "Oh Saddam, we love you, why don't you annihilate all the Jews."

Like I'm not queasy enough this morning. These are girls, aged 10 and under, spewing this hatefulness. What a sick, distorted, demented, poisonous, bloodthirsty, twisted mess the Palestinians are. Think of yourself at 10-years old. Any comparison? I didn't think so. Teach your children well. The Israelis are somehow supposed to reason with these people. G-d help us. Please.

# 66-

ahh yes, another class of neer-do-wells created by America's leftist culture of welfare "buy em off" nonsense. Every immigrant group that now gets to america does the same thing, whine whine whine, "our rights, our rights" "we need , finacial/special rights to combat american bigotry......."

yada yada yada, same ole shit.

Having the Pals side with you is like having the Mush bet on you (what movie was that? A Bronx Tale I think)

Anyone holding their "Iraq to Win" longshot tickets might as well tear them up.

I figure I better give a little more background for those who don't want to STUDY at [Link: www.yamin.org...] , so I've transcribed a few choice paragraphs from one of Eidelberg's books.
Israel is a TERRIBLE example of Democracy, not nearly the wonderful example of America. Israel needs to QUICKLY change it's system of governance, to build a Classic Democracy, (not the Micheal Moore 'contemporary democracy' morally relativistic multi-culti PC crap), or despite logic, hope, morality, facts, and strategic sense, the Quartet is going to pull off tearing away the Heartland of Jews and Christians and giving it to these bloody murdering thugs.

From Jewish Statesmanship – Lest Israel Fall by Professor Paul Eidelberg – Ariel Press – (pgs. 85-87)

"[In Israel], the entire country constitutes a single electoral district, which necessitates proportional representation. Compounding the problem is the 1.5% electoral threshold (…) this is by far the lowest electoral threshold among some fifty states using proportional representation.
(…)
What renders Israel’s parliamentary electoral rules most pernicious is this: - Israelis do not vote for individual candidates, but for a fixed, party-ranked list of candidates. Since parties in Israel are symbolized by a few letters on a ballot slip, most candidates on the party lists are unknown to the average voter. Various consequences follow.
First, candidates for the Knesset do not compete with each other as individuals in a particular district, as in almost every other country having democratic elections. (NB: - 70 countries – excluding Netherlands, which is still a relatively homogeneous country despite an accelerating rate of Muslim immigration) Hence, the legislative performance and previous campaign promises of an incumbent are not publicly exposed by a rival for his office.
Second, since an MK is not accountable to the voters in a constituency election, he can the more readily ignore their opinions and interests.
Third, having no individual representative accountable to him in a relatively small district, the voter can hardly obtain a redress of grievances by conventional political means. No wonder studies indicate that an increasing majority of Israelis feel powerless despite the ease with which parties multiply in (Israel)! "

I can stick around for 20 minutes - it's 14:10 Ottawa time... Thanks all for your patience and forebearance and for your obvious support for Israel, but the Battle for Israel may be starting anytime now, so I just got to do this. 'K?

snopes (#53): Geez, you're the last person I thought would buy into the Muslim-counting myth.

I've seen that a few Tomahawks have a tendency to go off course. Could one or two maybe go off course in, like, Ramallah Square? We could blame that fantastic jamming equipment that the Russians sold to the Iraqis.

#63-

Damnit! WHy aren't the Jewish people getting the hell out or Europe? It's beggining to look too much like 1932 these days. Just go to arizona and don mexican garb, no one will know the difference. THe INS is worthless anyway.

They need to get out of there before they start buring them to death in the streets.

#62 hobgoblin
I won't be so bold as to call you a troll, but why bring up the Iranian kidnapping event in the context of the current POW situation? Or do you just have a problem with Reagan and North?

Jumping in here, I think MikeO was pointing out that the arabs have latched onto the Iran mess as a precedent, allowing them to hope that a couple dozen Americans in their hands will paralyze our will. Obviously, that can be laid at Carter's feet much more justly than at Ronnie's and Ollie's.

But in a part of the world where elected officials don't exist, they don't know from "new administrations," or how a shift in the White House can presage a shift in the way we do business . . .

#71 hobgoblin
BTW, my brother (in-law) is in the 101 Airborne under the 1st brigade command, and Col. Hodges. He was lucky not to be in the command tent when Sgt. Assfuck Ibn al-Asshole rolled in the grenades, but Capt. Greg Holden, a friend of my brother's, was injured. Not sure how serious, but not life-threatening. Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers.

Indeed I shall. And his comrades in arms as well.

# 45 -

Dead on. People have got to understand that by 1970, we had the war in Vietnam won. As long as we continued to support the ARVN with air power, supplies and equipment, they could have held out forever against the North. To our eternal shame, the American people simply lost interest in protecting our allies in South Vietnam. We threw them to the wolves because we were tired of fighting.

We did the same thing to the Iraqis in 1991. If Saddam Hussein hadn't kept attacking us through his Al Qaeda proxies in the 1990s, we wouldn't be fighting this war now. And the Iraqis would be left to their fate forever. No wonder so few of them want to rise up. They think we're going to cut out on them.

On the post about the Iraqi who thinks Iraq's plight is a U.S. conspiracy. Think about it from his perspective. He can't understand why a nation that is so powerful wouldn't use that power to destroy its enemies, so he comes up with an explanation that fits the world he is accustomed to seeing.

As long as we fight, we're safe. Stop fighting, and our enemies will be emboldened to take us on.

Lest we forget, these are the peaceful people that Rachel Corried died defending...

#79 - Yah. Maybe we (Israel) could apply to become the 51st State? And get a decent Governor, like Jeb B. or someone, - as long as he/she is NOT Jewish...
I mean, could you imagine someone like Ronald Reagan "tolerating" this madness?

#72-

I agree, but I have never been able to figure out why the Somali incident was concidered a defeat - we whacked the shit out of them and only lost 18 men- they were out numbered something like 500 to 1 at a minimum, plus, Clinton (true to how Dems fight wars) deliberately withheld close air support from anything other then choppers- meaning there were c-130 gunships in the area, but he wouldn't release them. He also sent in a totally undersized unit- the somalies never would have dared the attack had there still been 50,000 Marines there.

A few lazer targeted missles would have made all the difference in the world - the hell with this civillian casualty shit - your dealing with people who use that against us - having learned from viet nam, they dilberately do not wear uniforms.

A commander's first duty is to his own, fuck the enemy.

Two words that will never be uttered after "Palestinian Representative"

"Miss Congeniality"

A Useful Idiot at the Democratic Underground weighs in:

It was interesting to see the interviews being held with a few of the POWs captured by the Iraqis.

I noticed that the interviewers spoke in calm, comforting voices, and I saw how one of them put a gentle hand on the shoulder of the young African-American female. Her eyes seemed to express a terrible fear, and that is likely because she was trained/brainwashed by the US miltary to believe all Iraqis are blood-thirsty murderers.

I have faith that the experience of these POWs will leave them non-plussed and very confused. I expect that they will be given good treatment, decent food and clean quarters during their confinement, and that they will be released, unharmed when the time comes.

Maybe I'm just dreaming, but it is my hope that the POWs will discover that they were treated better by the Iraqis than they have ever been treated by the very people who are supposed to be protecting them on the battlefield. And, in the case of the African-American woman, she may find that people in the Middle East, unlike too many of the folks back home, do not consider her a second-class human being because of her dark brown skin!

Link

(Props to Jonah at NRO)

They have been able to teach the American and British dogs an unforgettable lesson.

Oh, we've been taught a lesson all right... and the war crime trials will show you the fruits of the lesson we've been taught.

Oh, and Tiburon #64, when you start your post with "I can't stay and debate," that almost guarantees that your post isn't going to be paid attention to.

There's a term for people who post and run like that.

#19 James

The only contribution I will make to Mandela's statue is pigeon poop.

(national geographic voiceover) How far does the universe extend? that's a fascinating question humanity hasn't been able to answer yet, and it's time the brave Palestinians should be finally rewarded for their incredible achievements and contribution to humanity and granted the immense privilege of being the first to find an answer.

Today, we follow NASA's ambitious plan to discover the gates of the cosmos, beyond where human imagination and Palestinian heroism has ever been able to reach. After the break, "The Masterplan: Palestinians at the Forefront of Space Exploration" - stay with us as we follow this extraordinary effort, made possible by the extreme love of self-sacrifice of one of the most incredible peoples on earth.

#83-

I'd say the salton (?) sea area of the Baha Penensula would make a fine replacement- very pretty. They need to get out of Europe. Soon, the writing is on the wall.

I spent a long winter (they tend toward 5 to 6 months here in Minnesota) studying German/nordic history begining with the "corded ware" peoples of northern europe- this was an effort to understand how the first european state (federick the great's Prussia) to grant citizenship rights and property rights to the Jewish people could then, generations later, conduct the holocaust.

I came to the conclusion that Euros, particularly Germanics, tend toward cyclical periods of violence. You can see this repeatedly over the last two-thousand years. Included with these cycles of violence come, over the last 1500 years, Jewish pograms. Jewish pograms seem to be a sort of jumping off point - used by everyone from the russians to the french.

They need to get out, Europe hasn't had a good blood letting for quite sometime now......

#79 Robert Brandtjen

Get me a Green Card, and me and my family will swim to the U.S.

We are not Arabs. We will not enter illegaly.

#87 Eric - I know I know, but if you read down one paragraph you'll hopefully see my point - this is all too crucial to say NOTHING, and just hope for the best....but I've got to steal time to get these ideas out in between feeding myself and family and putting a roof over my head.
I apologize - but I'm still here for a few minutes. Please visit [Link: www.yamin.org...] first, and read both my posts before commenting: - #64 - #76

We now have Example# 1,255,674 of why the Palestinians are the most politically immature people in the Universe : They ALWAYS back a loser!God,what a bunch of morons.

Unfortunately, it looks like they couldn't quite rouse themselves to ululating, shooting off their happy guns, and passing out candy in the streets as they did after 9/11. A few more pictures of that now during wartime would clarify much.

#90 Robert B.
I'm afraid you are RIGHT. The Jews of course were well established in fur and metal trade long before any cohesive Germanic polity in Northern Europe - arguably they brought alot of the Greco-Roman and ancient Jewish concepts of nationhood to the region (we are talking EARLY here), but the cycle you speak of is hard to deny. Of course the Church (then, not now) didn't help with their constant equating of Jews with the Devil as Christianity began to be superimposed on the pagan cultures there. The Jews, of course, being as always a convenient target - few in number and generally having something worth stealing.

2. Ken Livingstone, Rt Hon Tony Blair, Rt Hon Ian Duncan Smith MP, and Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP are among the honorary patrons of the Nelson Mandela Statue Fund.

No one noticed this part, did they?

#95 Tiburon

The hate speech from the Catholic Church is still here.

I have to echo the many comments that have wondered why the US should be at all concerned about a palestinian state. Given that they openly back our enemies repeatedly, there is no logical reason for us to back them, except for the misguided belief that this will somehow reduce anti-American terrorism. If we believed that to be true, we should also have handled Iraq in the same way - no bombing, just give them their own state.

Ariel,

The reason is political and diplomatic points world-wide.

Most of the world, besides America and Israel, want a 22nd arab terrorist run state within Israel's borders.

Using Israel as a carrot / pawn makes Israel usefull to America to gain points from the rest of the world.

After the road to baghdad...
...the road to damascus will beckon the U.S. Army.

Yet, still the call for a 22nd arab terrorist run state within Israel's territory will be accepted and acknolwedged by the U.S due to Israel being a carrot / pawn for worldwide political and diplomatic points we can gain from them.

Israel was once considered a strategic ally, not anymore, to the U.S Israel is either a burden or a pawn.

#97 - Caton
Yah...of course....This is my weakness - "the glass is Half-Full", and all.....when it comes to the Catholic Church. I keep hoping, 'cause when I see the way SOME Christians think of the Jews (witness the Aztlan crap), it makes me just want to 'head for the hills' (the Judean Hills, mark you - heh heh)
BTW - been looking at the SP66 - nice, and looks much better balance than a model 70 (?). Next project....
If I don't respond, apologies - I really gotta go, or I'm going to get fired - and I work for myself!!

"Middle East Roadmap to Peace"... this is like frickking Groundhog Day, why don't we ever learn? How is it that even the Bushies don't get the message that the Palestinians are not remotely interested in peace? They supported Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, and Osama, for chrissake. And they're still the world's darlings. Whoever their P.R. firm is, I want to hire them.

#98 and #99 - Ariel and G.I. Joe

Exactly correct IMO, both of you. If Israel, however, can have a transparent American-like democracy unlike what Israel has now - I believe most folk in America will come to have sympathy.

Bye for now - sorry. Again - [Link: www.yamin.org...]

Tiburon,

My point wasn't about Israel's political system nor American sympathy for them.

Americans overwhelmingly support Israel second to Britain.

My point was that Israel cannot rely on anyone and the only way they can be free from arab terrorism is to NEVER appease it, i.e. OSLO, lebanon, Sinai ..., they must be strong and fight to rid their country of the terrorism they themselves brought there via the OSLO WAR.

Arabs and the world only respect strength, determination, and absolute victory -- a winner.

Israel has won battles but the battles were never sustained as victories due their eventuall appeasement via diplomatic channels specifically giving into American pressure to appease arabs.

They need to learn to never do that again.

They need to get rid of the terrorists within their country once and for all without relying or waiting for anyone else, they must do it militarily themselves, NOW!

Occasional Reader,

The question shouldn't be "who is their PR firm" rather who is their enemy and who else has that same enemy.

Then your answer to the worldwide support and PR might be better explained.

The PLO within Israel's borders get international legitimacy and worlwdide financial support to attack Israel and kill Jews. The reason being because they attack Israel and kill Jews.

We can have fun imagining their shocked and downcast faces when it turns out that Saddam was not winning the war. Since when does losing 30 people out of 300,000 cause you to lose a war while advancing an average of 60-70 miles a day? Since when does losing a couple of aircraft out of over a thousand mean defeat? If killing a few Americans and taking 4 prisoners is a great victory, it tells you that Iraqis had already lost the war before it started.

Any trolling peace rapists have anything to say?

F**kin' Deicide of your indy-allah is in order.

1. The Balfour Declaration recognized that the Arabs in Palestine had a valid, historical claim to the land...but so did the small number of Jews wishing to return to live there.

2. The 1922 riots caused the Brits to say that Partition of the land between the two groups having valid claims was the only peaceful path that had a chance of working.

3. The Quartet's Roadmap is the logical endpoint. All the world, including the US finally....has concluded that the 2-State solution has to be implemented. Bush has been told by Blair that if he caves to the Jewish lobby.....he can effectively write off future UK support. He has been told by other leaders that if he footdrags on the ME after Iraq...there will be less support for the WoT...not only from Muslims, but also Europe, India, Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

4. The Zionist dreams of taking all the land and water of Palestine are just that.

Any concerted effort to influence Congress to abandon the WoT and become a pariah nation just so a foreign nation that limits citizenship by religion can expand....can count on the Religious Right...but few others....and when the price of total global ostracism hits our business interests and our people...

Sorry. The Pals are odious people. And, as #2 JD said "Again, the Paleostinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

But it is their land as well as the Jews. So sorry if you land speculated on a Hebron Condo project, or dream of ethnic cleansing the locals out......Separate out. Agree on borders. Build good walls and safeguards for peaceful living.

Thats in the end all the legitimacy Balfour gave Israel. Not claim to ALL of Palestine. Just a part of it.

Why does the immoral acts of Palestinians continue to surprise the world?

For more than a generation, this has been a people to whom no moral outrage is too extreme to applaude.

Real peace for the Palestinian people will only come when the history of moral outrages committed in the name of Palestine outrages the Palestinian people as much as they offend the civilized world

GI JOE #104: I think your response is part of the answer, but certainly not all of it. The prototypical tree-hugging American lefty, waving a Pali flag at the "peace" rally, is usually not interested in "killing Jews", and would indeed be shocked at the suggestion. I know plenty of people like this. They genuinely believe that the Palis are just this oppressed minority (and a wonderfully multiculturally-diverse non-Western Voice of Resistance, etc. etc.), that all they want is peaceful self-determination, but that the big bad Israelis won't let them. The Big Lie works, even among "well-meaning" people. What little mention there is in the mainstream media of the true nature of the Palestinian death cult just passes right by them. To the extent they hear it, they ignore it, or choose not to believe it.

#96 james,

Rt Hon Tony Blair, Rt Hon Ian Duncan Smith MP, and Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP

Actually, all three leaders of the political parties are there; Labour, Conservative and Weasel Democrat Party. It sounds like one of those "Charters against Racism" that did the rounds a few years back, which the Muslim council of Great Britain drafted. Politicians that signed it appeared to grant that this council had moral weight. Those politicians who shrugged their shoulders and said that they weren't racist, but didn't need a poxy piece of paper from the Muslim Council of Great Britain, were publicly vilified as though they had admitted to being NF thugs. I am surprised CAIR haven't tried something like this in the US.

Nowadays, politicians have to sign up to every hare-brained (hair-brained ?!) scheme that comes along for fear of inviting the wrath of the Grauniad.

Red Ken Livingstone will have a statue of communist apologist Mandela, however a statue of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher in Trafalgar Square is far more appropriate.

Anyway, Nelson Mandela already has a statue by Festival Hall. Why the hell should he have one in the Square that recognises Britain as a Military power throughout history?

Bomber Harris should have his recognition, at last!

How come whenever a Palestinian opens his mouth he ends up braying like he was being fucked by a donkey?

#6 Caton

And for this, they will get a state?

Those were my words the other day!
Nice we see eye to eye ; - ))
Those words are still stuck in my mind.
And.......they terrify me.
No matter what those fuckers do and no matter
how they misbehave they will get their
fucking little state.

In many ways the arab world have
won almost an entire world against the Jews.

Talk about a world against one little strip of land!
What humanity. It makes me sick.

Our friends (yuk) of the EU (including our ally Blair)
are busy sharpening their knives this very moment.
I can see their ugly faces, foul drool dripping down their chins with thoughts of once and for all really giving the jab to the Jews.
I hope Bush has not completely sold us out.
I like him very much so I will continue to hope
that he is the firend to Israel he has shown thus far.

This
guy
is one of only a couple hands full of people who write the facts as they are.
Some talk about his agenda being a re-born Christan in effort to negate his legitimacy. It's complete crap compared to the illegitimacy of opinion which runs rampant in the popular media concerning Israel. He is our friend. For this I am thankful.

OK, that does it! I'm declaring shenanigans!

You. Yes you, you, you and you who have posted to this effect above... please help me out. How is it, when the Israeli government declares to the world that it wants a two-state solution with the Jordyptians that it is the U.S. and/or Bush who are selling Israel out?!?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's a bad idea. But to attribute insulting motives to people or entities who are helping to achieve stated goals? I'm probably missing something, as some voices I respect are saying the same thing here, so please help me out. When Israel asks for a two-state solution and we try and help achieve it, how is it that America is at fault?

#114 selpaw

Yeah, I read Joseph Farah regularly. But nobody seem to listen to him.

It's time for the Isreali gov't to remember 'No' is a complete sentence.

#115 Model4

The only reason Isreal does not openly oppose the 'two-states' bullshit is overwhelming international pressure. Check what happened after GWI for additional information. Key words: Madrid, Oslo.

Caton: how are those toenails coming along? BTW--have you really tried to get a green card? I would have thought you'd have little problem--US educated, citizenship from friendly countries, can apparently write code, etc.

Model4 #115: your point is taken, but keep in mind that the Israeli government probably realizes what the parameters are to the policy positions they can declare. If Sharon announced, "after taking into consideration how happy the Palestinians apparently were as Jordanian and Egyptian citizens in 1966, we've decided to support their becoming Jordanian and Egyptian citizens again; we'll even help them move", even the US would have to walk away. Of course they have to say they support a two-state solution. And hell, they've even tried it.

Ranbut, the Pals already have their part of historic Palestine. It's called Jordan.

The fact that they have whined, kicked, screamed, bombed, maimed endlessly, saying they want more, does not make it right.

As to what actually happens, they may very well get their terrorist state, but it is far more than they deserve.

#86

Hey Spunky,

That's some sickening sh!t you turned up over at DU.

I'd like to respond with some DU of my own.

HappyLibLady should turn her natural talents to doing something useful for society, such as:

* Bottle-feeding stray kittens and puppies at the no-kill shelter.
* Making felt puppets to cheer up children at her local hospice.
* Or, making hot chocolate with little marshmallows on top for homeless veterans.

She sounds like the kind of person who would do an interpretation of Picasso's Guernica using brightly colored felt and glitter glue.

#118 Occasional Reader

how are those toenails coming along?

You don't want to know :-)

BTW--have you really tried to get a green card? I would have thought you'd have little problem--US educated, citizenship from friendly countries, can apparently write code, etc.

There's a waiting list, a huge one. Another 3 years, minimum.

The choice: America either puts a military base in Israel, and begins liquidating jihadi vermin, starting with the Palestine Authority, or continues to allow jihad terror to expand. The former option will either be done now or later.

Ranbutan,
I thought I'd find you here trying to obfuscate the issue.
You've conveniently forgotten to mention that the Palestine Mandate included what is now Jordan, which the Brits cleverly severed off to give to one of their cronies and at the same time forbade any jews from living there. Read the Balfour Declaration again. And try reading the history of the region in the last century. There was never any restriction about where Jews could live in post-1922 Palestine.
Anyway, you've continually displayed a cursory knowledge and and unwillingness to to review historical facts propelled by a barely concealed anti-Jewish animus.
Regardless of your rantings about a 2 state solution as the only viable option, it won't happen until the Palis develop some common sense and display some ability at statescraft rather than religion-based terrorism.
And it won't matter what the US or anyone else wants. You as an american don't have to live there and face the situation first hand. The Israelis will not put their heads on the chopping block to satisfy your or the State Dept's wishful thinking.
When the palis show themselves ready to live in peace and stop all their bullshit then we'll talk. Following the Quartet plan will be great for the Quartet, but do you seriously think that GIVING those Palis a state at this point would make Israel safer? Put away that ganja your inhaling!
Anyway its most unlikely the Palis will get anything but their own graveyard. They will never cede the point of having their hundreds of thousands of pseudo-refugees return to Israel.
They want it all and always have. They don't want to live next to an Israel; they want to live in in "Israel" sans the Jews.
I'm surprised that someone who SEEMS to be reasonably intelligent keeps denying the reality of that fact.

#121 Caton:

There's a waiting list, a huge one. Another 3 years, minimum.

WHAT??! You mean I'm NOT living in a fascist dictatorship reviled by the rest of the world? Stupid Chomsky...

Sorry to hear it. Well, if you get to DC, I'll buy you a beer. There's even a Caton Street in Georgetown you can relocate to. Pricey neighborhood, though.

Politics is politics, but let's see if I have things right. With all the bad press Israel gets, a good tactic would be to lie to the world to gain support. In dealing with a friendly democracy who elect their representatives and president, a good idea would be to tell all the voters that a two-state solution is desired. The politicians are supposed to run for office endorsing this notion and turn around and tell their voters they're going to act against it. And again, it's America's fault for doing what is asked of it.

And let's do this while the Anglo-sphere is fighting a global WoT and beating down their useless but influential and ever-present leftists. This would be the third-best time to lay all the cards on the table, the first two probably being after the WoT has run its course and there's another all-out Arab invasion or simultaneous WMDs going off in Israeli cities. Yeah, it would be better to wait for those things to happen to confront the issue.

You don't turn tail and run in your own home. Aw, forget it, do what you want then. But stop blaming us for doing what Israel says it wants. It simply isn't fair to have to sit through.

I'm not saying the country isn't in the middle of a terrible and unfair delima, BTW. Just asking for accountability and fair treatment of an ally.

MicktheMick:

Yes, it is amazing how blind some can be. U.S. forces are 50 miles from Bagdad, but somehow are losing the war?

As Mark Steyn says, it makes perfect sense to them. That's what the BBC had been announcing all day. And if the western media believes
it, why shouldn't they?

#124 Occasional Reader

WHAT??! You mean I'm NOT living in a fascist dictatorship reviled by the rest of the world? Stupid Chomsky...

OF COURSE you are living in a fascist dictatorship reviled by the rest of the world. That's why Chomsky lives there and does not plan to relocate.

Feeling better now?

Well, if you get to DC, I'll buy you a beer. There's even a Caton Street in Georgetown you can relocate to. Pricey neighborhood, though.

DC? Why the hell would I relocate in DC? I'm planning to avoid all places in the U.S. that do not respect the 2nd Amendment. Texas, Montana and Wyoming are my first choices.

#122 Make-Sense-Of-It
It will NEVER happen!
.........too much appeasement of the arab world.

Caton,

The only reason Isreal does not openly oppose the 'two-states' bullshit is overwhelming international pressure. Check what happened after GWI for additional information. Key words: Madrid, Oslo.

So right.

Yeah, I read Joseph Farah regularly. But nobody seem to listen to him.

He is like a lone voice. It makes me sad.

As far as the no "is a complete sentence" they
will never say it.

#115
Model4

You. Yes you, you, you and you who have posted to this effect above... please help me out. How is it, when the Israeli government declares to the world that it wants a two-state solution with the Jordyptians that it is the U.S. and/or Bush who are selling Israel out?!?

Because they (Israel) are obediently mouthing the words of the United States!!! Following directions!
Support does not come easy-
Holly shit, Israel has become the pariah of the world, the scapegoat of everyone not wanting Jews
to live in peace in their homeland or anywhere for
that matter. Not to mention the new order who are damn arab lovers and appeasers.
This is history for heavens sakes. Jews have been chased out of every fucking place they lived.
It is estimated that between 600,000 to 900,000 were kicked out of dozens of middle eastern
countries (WHERE THEY LIVED FOR 1,000's of years) and they lost everything.
Still they were the lucky ones. Many were killed.
Fucking talk about RIGHT OF RETURN!

#86

Jesus Christ, you just have to laugh at someone so stupid. I swear, I've never seen so many fools in one place.
I just wish we could swoop down, scoop their sorry asses up, and drop them in with their Arabian buddies.
A few feet beatings, gang rapes, canings, and trips through the plastic shredder would probably having these morons declaring that the Arabs are experiencing descrimination because their torture methods are so outdated.

Fools.
Some people just don't have the common fucking courtesy to die.

I hope they all catch syphillitic rabies.

#127 Caton:

Texas, Montana and Wyoming are my first choices.

OK, suit yourself. I'm not sure how many synagogues there are in Wyoming, though. And just to plug my home "state" further; you could always live in the 'burbs in Virginia, which has concealed carry.

Model4

You don't turn tail and run in your own home. Aw, forget it, do what you want then. But stop blaming us for doing what Israel says it wants. It simply isn't fair to have to sit through.

I'm not saying the country isn't in the middle of a terrible and unfair delima, BTW. Just asking for accountability and fair treatment of an ally.

The above two paragraphs are so warped...so
misguided that I will not lower myself to answer you.
Except,
What in the hell are you a Model for?

selpaw: It is our liberals who want a two-state solution, or whatever the heck else the Arab dictators want. The conservatives who back Israel are hearing that you want this too, and want to back a friend. Great, now you've got every voter in the most powerful nation and your closest friend agreeing that for the first time ever a nation of Palestine should exist.

So expect it to happen. Who besides Israel or America will stem the tide? But you take all the support of American voters out of the equation in one fell swoop. Bow to France and Germany if you like. I'm sure you'll get a nice train ride out of it. America loves a fighter who'll stand up for what is right and won't vote for a pres who backs Palestine if your leader is standing tall saying "We won't accept the creation of a terror state on our borders." Well, our looney left will, but we'll deal with them.

Who's taking up arms now to defend Iraq when America and Britain act out of a sense of righteous duty? That's right, no one. Tough choice, but ultimately your choice. And you tried trusting the Europeans before, right? Best wishes.

#129 Celissa

I hope they all catch syphillitic rabies.

I agree. It would improve them.

#130 Occasional Reader

And just to plug my home "state" further; you could always live in the 'burbs in Virginia, which has concealed carry

In that case, my first choices are now Texas, Montana, Wyoming and Virginia, in no particular order. It looks like North & South Dakota also respect the 2nd amendment. I have to check.

#132 Model4

You have a point. Very few Israeli leaders have balls.

We'll see. I don't want to be unfair to the U.S., but I really think the Clinton administration put Israel in an unsustainable situation.

And, trusting the Europeans? We never trusted them. They just happen to be the nearest market for most of our products.

Thanks Caton. It looks horrible right now, but can only hope the best will come, and that the clouds along the way will have silver linings. But ietQuay on the intonClay. Know you folks are all touchy about Jesus and all, but many of you are convinced Bill is the messiah, and still follow his disciples to this day.

OK, very bad taste. I apologize.

Caton,

You have a point. Very few Israeli leaders have balls.

I wouldn't quite say few Israeli leaders don't have balls.
I think when they get their balls they seem to
forget what they have em for. (sorry)
It is all about pressure and now
as long as Israel is pretty much owned by the
U.S. it is hard to get the gutts to do what you
gotta do.
I'm not making excuses mind you, I think I just
see things as they are. The die is cast, the
stage is set.

I agree with you concerning Clinton. He was bad for Israel.
Jews loved him not only because he was a democrat
but they fell for his charisma.
worse, rather than analyze his actions they did nothing to challenge him. Anyway, he was at master at bait and switch.

#136 selpaw

A terrorist Pali state means destruction of Israel. It's simple. It's not the economy, it's not the military, it's not the politicals, it's a survival issue now. So maybe Sharon still has balls, he's just forgotten what they're for. Maybe. I'm not sure it really makes a difference.

Model4,

It's a tough situation that Israel is in, right now. Israel realizes that the US is her most important ally. OTOH, the US has a lot of pressure, both domestically and internationally, to show that the WoT is not a WoIslam or a WoArabs. In order to demonstrate this, many are quite willing to sacrifice Israel on the altar of Arab appeasement - or at least to sacrifice Israel's security.

If I read Sharon correctly, he is trying to prevent that from happening. He has constantly repeated Bush 43's June speech element calling for a democratic palestinian state. Given that a democratic palestinian state is about as likely as an ice cube in hell, I think that Sharon's policy goal is quite clear.

OTOH, it is a way for Sharon to say both yes and no - since you never want to just say "NO!" to your closest ally. Even Arafat never said "NO!" to Clinton; Arafat just said, "Yes, but..." with three thousand but's.

I've seen you make this comment repeatedly, so let me mention to you another way of thinking about it. If you think of the contrapositive of what you are saying, it should help clarify the situation: Bush (and/or the US)not supporting a two-state solution is not selling Sharon (and/or Israel) out. This statement is almost self-evident and helps to provide a framework for looking at the Arab-Israeli conflict. The US should not support a palestinian state. Let the Israelis work it out with the Jordyptians however they please. It is none of our business.

Model4,

I forgot to mention that part of the Sharon strategy, if I am not mistaken, is to hoist the proponents of the Road Map on their own petard. This is much like what Bush does with regards to those who said the UN could do the inspecting, etc. Sharon is trying to show, IMO, that there is no way a Jordyptian state would ever be peaceful - and therefore it should never be called into existence.

OTOH, Sharon is making a big gamble. And it could have a big negative payoff if the Jordyptians get a state and use it to continue their war against Israel.

Yesterday Haaretz reported that a bus full of volunteers for the Iraqi army departed Syria for Baghdad.

Now Debka (Hebrew edition) reports those were palestinians.
Why do I say "were"?
Because they were gunned down "by mistake" by a US F-15.
The US apologised to Syria for the "accident".

These Palestinians are in a cage, and now they are behaving like animals. They are in a cage of their own making, just like the Iraqis. Only the dictators and the press benefit from this situation. America still seems to poke Israel in the eye every time she can in the futile attempt to sooth the "arab street". The "islamic street" is the appropriate term. Think of all of the races of the world that Islam has infected. It is the religion that kills. Muslims oppress themselves, and destroy all that they touch. The Israelis suffer greatly because of this, but you already know that. Ask the Christians in Lebanon what respect they get from those who were fooled by the demonic Allah. When there are no Christians and Jews to kill, then they turn on each other because of some trifling difference of religious opinion. I know well the smile and holding of hands, while the knife turns in the back, and I also know that I am preaching to the choir. Any so-called god that wishes his people to behave in such barbaric ways is a false god. How could such a god ask for such barbarity, yet be "oft-compassionate and merciful"? No god that I know.

from haaretz (thankfully, the money was wasted)

Veteran Palestinian NGO suspected of defrauding
donors
$4 million in overseas donations allegedly misappropriated
By Arnon Regular

The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment (LAW) has been operating in the territories for 13 years. Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Ireland, as well as the European Union and International Commission of Jurists, have funded the organization's activities.

These donors, and others, however, have recently learned that the founder of the non-governmental organization (NGO) - the largest of its type in the territories - has apparently pocketed or misappropriated a significant share of the funds earmarked for human rights advocacy.

According to an interim report by auditors from Ernst & Young, LAW founder Khader Shkirat orchestrated a system of false financial reports, including loans to family members and fictitious expenses.

From September 1997 through August 2002, the organization received about $10 million from donors. However, about $4 million of this sum was embezzled, used for other purposes, or cannot be accounted for, according to the audit. Shkirat stepped down as director of LAW several months before the audit began, and has since focused on the legal defense of Marwan Barghouti, the Fatah leader arrested by Israel last year. Shkirat is also interested in entering politics.

Since the first suspicions of improprieties emerged, donor states and organizations have frozen their funding. There are currently enough reserves to enable LAW to continue functioning for several weeks, but it is unclear whether the NGO will be able to continue working in the future.

LAW developed out of "Earth and Water" - an organization Shkirat headed during the first intifada in the late 1980s. The organization, which drew its primary strength from the Palestinian Communist Party, earned a solid reputation for its documentation of human rights violations and legal action.

False and misleading

The financial statements presented to LAW's board of directors were formulated to comply with the donors' demands, but portrayed a false and misleading representation of the way these funds were used, according to the Ernst & Young audit. "The overall method to create savings has been fraudulent reporting of financial reports," the Ernst & Young team asserted.

"In our opinion, the executive director, Khader Shkirat, in collusion with [LAW's] auditors, has planned and executed this savings scheme. All project coordinators have knowledge of this scheme - at least within their projects." The outside auditors also fault LAW's board of directors for having "sanctioned the use of erroneous reports."

According to the audit findings, at least $2.3 million of the donated funds were transferred to secret bank accounts in Israel and the territories, and apparently were used for purposes unrelated to the organization's declared mission. Meanwhile, the donors were told that the organization was short on funds. An effort is now being made to track down the missing money.

The Ernst & Young audit, conducted by a team from the firm's offices in Stockholm and Ramallah, claimed that Shkirat used funds contributed by donors to extend loans to a family relative, currency trader Izz Shkirat, including a $130,000 loan that was never repaid.

Shkirat also allegedly channeled $160,000 to a mysterious group, the Center for Democratic Action, and used over $500,000 from LAW (plus an additional $100,000 from a German donor) to purchase a 65-percent stake in the privately owned Amwaj radio station in Ramallah. The investment in the radio station is now being investigated, because the sum paid for the 65-percent share is considerably above its market value. It is suspected that part of this money may actually have been transferred to another destination.

Questions also have arisen regarding a range of other activities, including car and hospitality expenses and funds allocated for publications and office equipment.

European donors said they feel "betrayed" by these revelations about apparent financial improprieties at LAW, but doubt they could sue Shkirat to recover these funds. "Our dealings were with an organization and not with a specific person. Shkirat is out of the picture," they said.

One thing is clear - they will not provide any more funding to LAW. "If a Saudi organization decides to support it, we won't be able to prevent this. But we will not support it again," one donor explained.

Shawki Issa, who succeeded Shkirat as director of LAW but subsequently resigned after being implicated in the funding scandal, claimed he is innocent of any wrongdoing. "I had no part in transferring funds to accounts that the donors didn't know about, because I was studying in the United States at the time."

Haaretz was unable to get a response from Shkirat on the Ernst & Young report.

Uggh. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped Ariel, but not necessarily through any fault of your own. And I do appreciate the info and views. I'm gonna point out the problems I've got, if you have time to answer, that'd be awesome.

First. Throw everything else away. Pretend we're talking about trade tariffs. Sharon is stating he wants the US to lower the tariff on widgets to 10%. Americans and the government we elect say "Yes. We should work to give our good friends this requested 10% tariff on widgets." Jews here and in Israel howl "The US is screwing us! Bush is screwing us! How dare they inflict a 10% tariff on us." That's the very simple core of my problem.

Next you say that because of the WoT the Americans are willing to "sacrifice Israel on the altar of Arab appeasement." Excuse me, but was it not B_ll Cl_nt_n who rearmed the PLO and pressured for a Jordyptian state, well before the WoT? See what I mean? It's like cause and effect go out the window, and this administration and the people that put it in office are the ones catching Hell for being traitors, while the liberals are doing their damndest to fight for the founding of Jihadistan on your borders.

Sharon calls for a democratic Palestinian state, and he's doing the right thing, knowing it will never happen. Bush calls for a democratic Palestinian state, knowing it will never happen, and he's selling the Jews out.

I think I know what's going on here, but am trying to clarify, and am grateful to those patient enough to help. It's making me flash back to an unhealthy relationship. "(sob!) When I told you not to hold me, why didn't know I wanted you to hold me?! (wail!)" :P Is a two-state solution bad? Probably, but don't expect Americans to know this when you are asking them for it, and worse, call the people who'd put their blood on the line to defend you untrustworthy. Sheesh, it's just manners if nothing else. I'm not arguing about what the right answer is, neither are Bush or Sharon in public. I'm saying please don't take an accusatory tone in "mixed" company who may not have been issued the Knisset secret decoder ring and are trying to do their damndest to help.

As far as Sharon's strategy goes, well, it's his people and his land, so I'll try and trust his judgement. I just hope he knows he's been telling American conservatives "don't worry about anything else you might hear, according to us a two-state solution is great!" Remember, most people are not international policy junkies. "Sharon seeks Palestinian Statehood" will be the headline they see, and that will be that. Does he really think that if more Jews are murdered that Kofi is going to see the light and say this is an atrocity?

I also see that Israel is going to get spat upon no matter what it does other than march into the sea. So put the issues on the table. Are the Arabs, EUnichs, UNichs going to scream? Sure, they already do. Let 'em scream for the next 1-2 years instead of the next 30. America groveling to the Arabs got us nothing but escalating violence. America groveling in the UN got us nothing be escalating hostility from the liberal press and Security Council opposition. Now that we're rolling, that criticism is mightily reduced and largely ignored.

Now this is important... notice how the more liberal and "anti-war Brits" started to come around when the PM put his foot down and said they were going in? How Blair's support got even better when the troops started fighting? Now were I Sharon, I'd be looking for American volunteers to spend their vacation in Israel guarding the Israelis if the terror ratchets up again. Can you imagine the interviews? Why have some piece of filth like Corrie getting all the attention? Imagine an American patrolling the streets with his own rifle and ammo.

CNN: Why are you here with all this danger?
Yank: Because I'll be damned before I let these monsterous terrorists continue to murder children without going through me first.
(Break to studio)
CNN: That was an interview taken earlier this week with John Doe from Atlanta Georgia. Three days later he was killed as a "Palestinian" exploded a bomb belt in the shopping center he was patrolling. His family, while saddened, said they were very proud that he risked his life to protect innocent civilians from terrorism.

I don't think Israelis have a clue how many Americans would put themselves in the above situation. Screw the flowers and kumbaya crap, that's why God made liberals.

losers

Model4,

These will require more extensive answers. I'll get back to you later tonight (after work) - probably around 10 EST.

#143 Model4

I don't think Ariel, selpaw or me are blaming the Bush administration as much as recognizing that realpolitik is dirty.

#144 Model4

The more liberal and "anti-war" Brits started supporting Mr. Blair when he started talking about "peace process" and "road map for the Middle East" being forced on the filthy Jews.

Good point about balls. Again. And the idea of American volunteers is very good, too.

Well...I wonder if these guys are still laughing:

"Away from the main arena, a small yet illuminating scene played out just across the Iraqi border Monday morning. Syria complained that a stray American missile had struck a bus killing five civilians and injuring ten.

According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, the only true fact in this terse account was that the bus was Syrian. The missile was no stray. It was deliberately fired from an F-15 fighter-bomber at a bus carrying armed Palestinian volunteers to join up with Iraqi forces, in order to make sure this was the last such Palestinian group of volunteers for Iraq. That F-15 made a piece of history; it carried out the first American air attack on a combatant Palestinian group. More will certainly be heard of this episode. "

Albert Khouri: As a Christian Arab, do you have any idea why Pali Christians side with the Muslims. Yes, I know there must be a feeling of "Arabs against the Zionists," but have these people ever stopped to consider how they would be treated in a Muslim-majority totalitarian state? Look at how the Muslims trashed the Church of the Nativity - and got away with it! Christians have been treated like crap in the ME ever since the rise of Islam. Do the Christians hate the Jews so much they're willing to accept second-class citizenship status in a Pali state?

Ranbutan #107:

I know that by responding to you I'm just feeding your nasty habit. But, in case there's someone reading on this board who doesn't already know the following, I thought I'd post the history of the "two-state solution":

Actually. it's a three-state solution, and it's been tried.

The original area of "Palestine," which the British administered post-WWI, included present-day Jordan, Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. This was what the British were referring to in the Balfour Declaration (1917) when they used the term "Palestine," At the time, the term "Palestine" referred to the geographic area, not to any particular group of people.

This is the final 1917 text of the Balfour declaration: "His Majesty's Government views with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and will use its best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

In 1922, the British divided "Palestine" for the first time, creating Jordan as a separate Arab/Moslem state (it was called "Transjordan" at the time). Jordan constituted approximately 80% of the area of Palestine. The remaining area was still under British authority, and roughly constituted what today is Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.

In 1947 this remaining area was further partitioned by the UN. It was divided approximately in half, into a predominantly Jewish state (this would be State #2) and a predominantly Arab/Moslem state (this would be State #3). The proposed State #2 was to roughly encompass the area which is now Israel, and the proposed State #3 was to roughly encompass the area of the West Bank and Gaza. At the time of partition, Proposed State #2 had a majority of residents who were Jewish, although many Arab/Moslems (and some Christians) lived there also. Proposed State #3 had a majority of residents who were Arab/Moslem, although some Jews (and some Christians) lived there also.

The Arabs rejected the offer which would have created Arab/Moslem State #3. The Jews accepted the offer of State #2 and accepted the creation of the Arab/Moslem State #3. The Arab world almost immediately attacked State #2 with the intention of obliterating it. They failed.

In 2000, the Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza were offered State #3 once again. They rejected the offer once again. This time, they launched the second intifada.

So, maybe you need to ask why the Arab world so far has had so much trouble accepting the so-called "two-state solution." The vast majority of the Israeli population has been trying to get the Arabs to accept it for a long time. Now that the inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza have shown that their hatred for Israel and their desire to obliterate it is stronger and more long-lasting than their desire for any state of their own, more and more Israelis (and Americans) are questioning the wisdom of giving a group dominated by terrorism and hatred their very own state at this point.

And, by the way--you refer to Israel as "a foreign nation that limits citizenship by religion." Odd how you manage to twist the truth! In fact, there are about 1 million Arab/Moslem citizens of Israel. It's most of the ARAB countries that "limit citizenship by religion"--no Jews allowed.

But of course you know that.

Sharon calls for a democratic Palestinian state, and he's doing the right thing, knowing it will never happen.

now that's a comforting thought.
in any case, it's not like it's supposed to happen tomorrow, so, there'll be other things to fuss about.

you're right on the British public support rising once it all got going. it is because of being directly involved, it's obvious. I'm not sure just the fact of promising the middle east peace package really had much of an impact, at least, right now, people are only following the news on iraq and troops and prisoners and concerned about that. with the notable exception of the usual suspects.

as the war on terror is getting busier perceptions (and media coverage...) will hopefully change.

Caton

A terrorist Pali state means destruction of Israel. It's simple. It's not the economy, it's not the military, it's not the politicals, it's a survival issue now. So maybe Sharon still has balls, he's just forgotten what they're for. Maybe. I'm not sure it really makes a difference.

I hate to say it but now I don't think it makes a difference.

#138 Ariel

The US should not support a palestinian state. Let the Israelis work it out with the Jordyptians however they please. It is none of our business.

...that's speaking my language; - ))
But it is the language of a delicious dream not reality.

#30. Whadaya say Warthog? India 3/5 do the trick?

Model4 #143,

First...That's the very simple core of my problem.

I understand that this is the core of your problem. I could be wrong, but I think that this is why Sharon emphasizes the democratic nature of the "palestinian" state. This is a way for Sharon to seem like he's in favor of a "palestinian" state while setting a condition that makes it impossible.

So, in your example, this is like the US setting a 10% tariff on a good Israel doesn't produce as a favor to the Israelis. Not quite the same - but similar.

Next you say that because of the WoT the Americans are willing to "sacrifice Israel on the altar of Arab appeasement." Excuse me, but was it not B_ll Cl_nt_n who rearmed the PLO and pressured for a Jordyptian state, well before the WoT?

No, not exactly. It was Bush 41 who created the Tunisian occupation and created the conditions that created Arafatistan. So in a very real way, it was Bush 41 who threw Israel to the dogs - sacrificing it on the altar of Arab appeasement. Being even-handed and all that. I believe it was James Baker who famously said "F*ck the Jews" since they didn't vote for Bush 41 anyway (though it might have been another cabinet member).

Clinton was handed this policy from Bush 41 and went along with it as a way to create some sort of legacy to show that he was a great president. Clinton pushed much harder to create this Jordyptian state despite the warmongering tendencies of the Arafatistan elites. Unlike Bush 41 though, Clinton didn't have some anti-Arab actions which he had to make up for by pushing the state - he did it for other reasons.

Sharon calls for a democratic Palestinian state, and he's doing the right thing, knowing it will never happen. Bush calls for a democratic Palestinian state, knowing it will never happen, and he's selling the Jews out.

Well, this is where it gets interesting. Sharon only called for a Jordyptian state after Bush's call was for a democratic palestinian state, IIRC.

What I, and others, oppose is that it seems that Bush has dropped the democratic requirement from the nature of the "palestinian" state. He has not mentioned it in the last few speeches certainly, which suggests that 1) he is wavering on it, 2) he has changed mind, 3) he figures it's implied since he has already said it.

I would stop saying Bush is selling out the Israelis if he didn't happen to say recently that just after Iraq he would try to create ME peace - it reminds me too much of the Oslo process. That, combined with the dropping of the word "democratic" makes me nervous.

I'm saying please don't take an accusatory tone in "mixed" company who may not have been issued the Knisset secret decoder ring and are trying to do their damndest to help.

I appreciate this. I must have misplaced my Knesset decoder ring as well :P... Seriously, a fair amount of what I am saying is my guessing and interpreting just from reading the news. I hope that no one has written something rude to you just for saying that the two-state solution is what Sharon has agreed to.

As to your post #144, I happen to agree with it wholeheartedly. I think that it would probably be a better strategy then the current one. OTOH, I would note that it is being gradually implemented. Remember the whining after Operation Defensive Shield? And remember how much less there was only three months later when Israel did it all over again?

I don't believe that it's necessarily the best way to do things. I would prefer a policy demanding unconditional surrender from all elements of Arafatistan. I'm not sure if the time is right for that yet.

selpaw #152,

Perhaps it is a dream. But it was what Bush tried up through 9/11 and to some extent afterwards.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me 1,457 times, I must be a Palestinian.

Ariel, you're too kind for getting back with me, but I didn't understand a word of it. Just kidding, it's starting to sink in :P Man, I learn so much from giving and knowledgeable posters here. With the US throwing Israel down this path, she's in a bind. Wasn't aware this was at our prompting, thanks. Israel has everything to lose because of our decision, and tons to lose for not playing ball. Sorry for the harsh tone with others earlier, it's just the "America is selling us out" comments that struck me as a bolt from the blue not knowing more of the history.

Yes, I loved Defensive Shield! All the leftist screamers shut up within a weak and the "cycle of violence" crap was proven a lie. Thank God too for guys like WSJ, Brit Hume, Alan Keyes, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and others that were willing to take a stand and inform the public on what was really going on. I was very upset though when that IDF guy planted the flag on Arafat's compound and they demanded the surrender of the guys inside, then didn't follow through. That hurt, but surely things were tough in diplomatic channels.

So let me pretend to pay you back for your patience and generousity, though this is surely something you've come up with. If the Jordyptians are given a state, all is not lost and with luck could get better. During final talks, Israel should tell the world that she'll take any act of war as deadly serious and disarm and dismantle any regime initiating one. With PA sovereignty, they have no excuse to hide behind and real reasons to comply.

Now what? Think Europe will be interested in financing this stillbirth after a year or two? Saudi telethons? any other Arab country? Nope. No dead Jews = no interest = no check. Cash in chips with the US and ask us to severly limit funds to the PA. Only allow laborers that are in Israel's interest, and I'd recommend as few as possible, even if at a cost. Thanks but no thanks, build your own society. Now what? Poverty, squalor, and a strong desire for the citizens to leave. With the tensions abated, buy land here, buy land there. Make sure it's only land sharing a border with Israel proper. "Register" these purchases with the UN and US and maybe the Arab League in the presence of PA officials.

Granted, this might be unrealistic, but it seems it has a chance, just as we puchased territory from Russia and France. They had lost interest in it and were happy to unload for cash, we recouped the investment thousands of times over. Anyhow, thanks again and best wishes. You'll be in our prayers.

Blog, NYC, JG....we all know Palestine as meaning once TransJordan was split off. Which made Palestine approximate its Roman land profile. All subsequent talks of Partition referenced the contours we all know...Gaza, West Bank, what is now Israel proper. Claiming what is now is Jordan was part of the Partition deal is false, disingenous Israel propaganda that the world long ago blew off.

Especially since the original Balfour imagined Jews not under Partition, not under their own state, but as a small protected minority consisting of 10-20% of the population. When the riots of the 20's made the British conclude that coexistence was impossible, Transjordan was already split off and all discussions referred to classic Palestine.

If you imagine the US will stay taking heavy damage...diplomatic, strategic, economic, paying out 1/2 out foreign aid and yes, loosing lives in the process...all to maintain the status quo for Israel's benefit - you're mistaken.

We are back to the the original premise with the Quartet Roadmap....both sides have valid claims to Palestine. The US, now in agreement with the rest of the world and past Israeli governments....holds that the Palestinian rights are not forfeit and must be honored -with conditions as laid out in the Treaty.

Expansionist Zionist dreams of owning it all...maybe one day expanding to take half of Lebanon, half of Syria....or at least keeping every colony placed in occupied territory......

Are fast coming to a close.

#157 Model4

What would happen is that the Palis would arm themselves massively, while terrorism would continue through other routes of infiltration - Syria, Lebanon and Jordan borders. As soon as they felt strong enough, and with the other Arab states, they would try to wage a conventional war against Israel. And we would have to nuke the whole Middle East.

Expansionist Zionist dreams of owning it all...maybe one day expanding to take half of Lebanon, half of Syria....or at least keeping every colony placed in occupied territory......

...Are fast coming to a close.

In your dreams, mama.

P.S. It's disputed territory, not occupied.

Those routes of infiltration exist no matter what happens with the Jordyptians. If the violence can't be stopped, at least make it (more) obvious that it has nothing to do with any disputed territories, as that issue would be solved in this hypothetical.

Terrorism comes in from Jordan? Maybe give them one freebie and announce the next attack traced to Jordan, to be soley determined by Israel, will mean the end of the Jordanian regime and their disarmament. Jordan claims they were set up? Better convene the Arab League and figure out who's setting you up and fix it now. Good reason to defang your jihadis. Israel's given the world all it asked, war is their choice alone.

If the peace is never to be tried by the Arab world, well then there's really nothing that can be done, it'll all go down sooner or later. Just make sure I personally and the US are invited to the smackdown. This, however, might stand a slim chance if the two-state option is forced.

Dear whole international world:

You see, Saddam wouldn't be a problem if his state was soveirgn. It is being occupied by the oppressors. As long as the north and south are occupied all killing of the Kurdish people is justified. They have brought this on themselves.
Saddam is innocent for his actions because he is just acting on desperation. The whole international world can see his suffering and dead babies.
The oppressors, they have tanks and helicopters. All Saddam has is tiny viles of anthrax. It's all he has to stand for his brave resistance. It is so unfair that war is waged against him, even going into his houses and demolishing his palaces. Where is he supposed to live? Look at the death count. 10 Saddam dopplegangers have been killed already compared to 0 Bushes.
The world should support Saddam. He needs the money to fight the occupation. It is the oppressors' fault that he wants to use weapons. He's just trying to defend his homeland from imperialism. Remember, Saddam was elected 99%. Iraq is a true democracy while it's oppressors support racism!

- Sincerely,
PR campain for the PLO.

P.S. You must be-a accurately a-speaking when you-a reply.

#161 Model4

Each and every time Israel fights the Arabs, we win on the field; then the 'international community' starts their shit, and we end up saying, 'Okay' to our closest ally. We've been through that a number of times. The last one was Lebanon.

We've tried peace, too. Nominally we're at peace with Egypt. Which is why it's okay for Egypt to have anti-semitic serials based on the 'Protocols' on TV, and to be the main smuggling route for weapons and explosive to the Palis in Gaza. Now we're at peace with Jordan, and weapons and explosives are smuggled through Jordan to the Palis in Judea and Samaria. All other Arab countries refused to even discuss a peace treaty, and actually don't even recognize the existence of Israel. Convene the Arab League? What for?

We've tried peace with Madrid and Olso. We all know what is the result.

One thing the west does not want to understand is that a Pali state will end with a genocide: it'll be the Arabs or us. And if we lose, we'll take the Arabs with us.

#160 zulubaby

Take Lebanon and half of Syria, why not? Then we have a direct route to take western Iraq, too. Or all of Iraq. As long as the Arabs leave, it'd be manageable.

As usual, Ranbutan, your "rebuttal" ignores most of what I had to say.

So I won't waste much time replying to you, except to say that in 1917, at the time of the Balfour Declaration, "Palestine" definitely referred to the entire region, INCLUDING the area of Jordan (Transjordan), which was not created until 1922. Any argument to the contrary is disingenous Ranbutan propaganda.

I don't know if this has been posted yet, so apologies if it has.

Orthodox Jew attacked outside crowded Berlin cafe; received no assistance from onlookers

Of course the most frightening part is that nobody did a thing to help this guy.

When the student, who was wearing a traditional Fedora hat and black suit, asked to use one man's mobile phone, he responded, "I didn't see anything," according to Teichtal.

Fucking bastards.

From Russia With Love

A Russian court ruled Monday that there was nothing illegal in a government-endorsed textbook that describes Jews as power-hungry and greedy, a rights group said.

The Moscow-based Movement for Human Rights had asked the Meshchansky district court to force prosecutors to open a criminal investigation into the textbook, "The Fundamentals of Orthodox Culture."

The book, endorsed by the Education Ministry and the Russian Orthodox Church for use in public schools, says the Jews forced Pontius Pilate to crucify Jesus because "they thought only about power over other peoples and earthly wealth."

The disease continues to spread. This is getting more and more frightening everyday!

#76 Tiburon
'Yamin Israel advocates repeal of the "grandfather clause" of the Law of Return, which has enabled hundreds of thousands of gentiles to enter Israel. (We also advocate a special program of education to endear these gentiles to the Jewish State.'

Huh??
Please explain that.

Zulubaby - the "disease" is being pushed in Europe by the top down to the bottom I believe....

"Ranbutan" --
I suggest you try reading the Balfour Declaration before you (mis)quote it.

It states that the Jewish National Home should not detract from CIVIL and RELIGIOUS rights of Arabs living there. (And there were very few of them there.)
That means PERSONAL rights, not POLITICALCLAIMS TO TERRITORY.

And the Declaration, like the League of Nations Mandate, called for "CLOSE JEWISH SETTLEMENT" -- not a total of 10-20% population of Jews as protected minority.

Lord Balfour himself wrote that he hoped in view of the vast territories given to the Arabs throughout the Middle East they would "not begrudge the Jews their little notch".

Ever wondered about those contributions to Palestinian human rights groups (as if):

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

#168 CastorOil
Hiya - I'll try to give the essence of the issue here....
The "Law of Return" in Israel makes it possible for any Jew in the world to receive automatic citizenship upon arrival (well, after one year, anyway - and given there are no problems like being a criminal sought elsewhere, etc...).
When Israel undertook to absorb some one million Russian Jews a decade ago, an issue emerged as to just who WAS Jewish, as due to total repression of Jewish practice and education under the Soviets, many had only tenuous links to any "community" as such. (That said, many many were coming out of years and years of horrible persecution for maintaining their Jewishness in the face of the Soviet regime)
Anyway, due to a lot of "secular Israeli" pressure in the name of 'humanitarian concerns', rather than accepting the classic and traditional religious definition of a Jew - someone born of a Jewish Mother, (and that, or conversion, only), the definition was broadened to include those with largely ANY Jewish roots - Jewish father, paternal grandfather, and (I believe) even more distant relationships.
This has resulted in many tens of thousands of Russian citizens being admitted as citizens to the obviously ONLY Jewish State, often with zero connection or interest in Jewish tradition or life. Many took part in this for purely economic reasons - opportunity being much better in Israel than in Russia. (Unfortunately, and it MUST be said, also a certain Russian Mafia criminal element saw this as a way to expand their activities beyond the Russian borders - bringing hard drugs and prostitution in rather frightening degree - but that is a side issue)
In a 'normal' state this might not be a problem - heaven's know that here in Canada for example, many arrive from points of the compass under rubric of patently false "refugee claims", but in the end they integrate to some degree into the society and contribute.
Israel, however, is obviously the world's only JEWISH State, - it's raison d'etre is to be a JEWISH Homeland. The Israeli government spends thousands upon thousands of dollars to absorb each new immigrant. Anyone can SEEK Israeli citizenship, Jew or Gentile, but only Jews were intended to receive the benefits accruing to the "Law of Return" - others would be judged as potential immigrants much like most other countries in the world practice.
Compounding this - Israel is, at least as previous to the establishment of a proper Jewish Constitution for the State of Israel as explained elsewhere on the [Link: www.yamin.org...] site, at some extreme risk demographically due to high birthrates among Arab citizenry. The "Grandfather Clause" only aggreviates this problem and dilutes the Jewish nature of the State.

In the end, if Israel was not governed by such a relentlessly secular and leftist-oriented oligarchy, and there was a surer confidence in traditional Jewishness socially, - less of a secular/religious divide - perhaps this would not be so crucial. But such is not yet the case, so....

Hope this helps, it's not the full story - Professor Paul Eidelberg has written in depth on this issue (as have many others - it's an ongoing debate in Israel - roughly religious right versus secular leftists in this particular case, but only approximately), but unfortunately I don't have immediate access to a link where you could find such on the internet. I'll watch for one, and you, and if that comes together I'll bring it to your attention.
Meanwhile, you might find something at the Ariel Center for Policy Research - [Link: www.acpr.org.il...] - a VERY important site and institute, also.

I'll be away now till late afternoon - about 10 hours from now - I'll check back to this thread then to catch any response you may have.

Have a good day, mate!! :-)

Um, small addendum while re-reading my post - Basically, the "Grandfather Clause" is sort of based on the philosophy that if one is crazy enough to claim being a Jew, you might as well be one....

Cute, but not exactly "Jewish Law" - heh....

I note that George Tenet is setting up a special department at the CIA to supervise freezing and dismantling of Jewish "settlements" in the name of the Quartet
On Arutz Sheva today...

No mention of the hundreds of illegal Pal settlements. Guess they'll be trusted to govern themselves...

Hi Donna,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. The question was, "As a Christian Arab, do you have any idea why Pali Christians side with the Muslims.", and I wish I had an answer. The same things happen everywhere. Why do liberals side with such evil just because a conservative is in the White House? Nobody really knows. Logic goes out the door, and they forget that they behaved a different way when their person was in office. I believe that people are easily misled. These Christians ignore the fact that when Muslims have free reign, all other religions die.

To Albert Khouri #175--

I cetainly don't know a whole lot about this, but I was always under the impression that the Christian Arabs who still live in the Middle East support the Moslem Arabs for a number of reasons: 1) fear for their own lives and welfare, 2) Moslem control of the press in those countries gives them slanted information 2) allegiance to people of similar ethnic background overriding other considerations.

My impression, however, was that, once Christian Arabs were living in other countries (such as the US), this support for Moslem Arabs lessens or even evaporates. Is this true?

Palestinians = Next in Line?

#173 Tiburon

Basically, the "Grandfather Clause" is sort of based on the philosophy that if one is crazy enough to claim being a Jew, you might as well be one...

Well... It makes sense.

#175 & #176 Albert Khouri and blogaddict.
I gotta agree with blogaddict Mr. Khouri. But, I tell you, if I was a Christian Arab in Israel I probably WOULD be furious with Israel, but for a completely different reason than support for Muslim Jihadi -
And that would be the shameful and tragic abandonment of the South Lebanese Army (SLA) by the Israelis under Prime Minister Barak, and the withdrawal from South Lebanon. In the Torah it is absolutely clear, and the Torah has a lot to say about how to warfight with "cleanliness of arms", as the IDF philosophy goes....(normally). When Jews are fighting shoulder to shoulder with non-Jews against a common enemy, a Jew is required, REQUIRED!, to treat them like their own brothers, stand by them in return and do what's right, generally.
Instead, Israel, under the oh-so-enlightened secular left and thanx to the Four Mothers and their ilk, pulled out of Lebanon under cover of night, leaving maybe 70% of the SLA to take their chances with the mercies of the Syrian puppets in Beirut and Hizbullah. Yes, some were allowed to come into Israel, and have been given towns and communities to live in, but WHERE IS THAT AT? Lebanon was their home, and they paid years of blood price to keep it that way, while helping to keep Hizbullah from our gates. Thanx for nothing, I'd say - were I Christian and Arab, and since I'm not all I can say is I am ashamed. (and I know, I know, - we are ALSO required to love our fellow Jew no matter what, and not talk bad about our co-religionists as there are quite enough bloodthirsty enemies out there who will find evil to make up without us helping them - BUT - this is getting absolutely life and death now for the Jewish State, and I personally consider this a special case - When Jews don't do right by the Nations (the Goyim) it reflects on all of us, - it is a Chillul Hashem - an insult to the Ineffable Name!)

and further to this: -

#178 Caton - (yup, it does in a way, doesn't it! - heh)
You'll find this interesting and On Topic -
I got a couple of acquaintance/friends around the corner - Maronite Christians from south of Beirut - they own a gas station here and we talk quite a bit about life in wartime over the last year or so. THEY have not one whit of respect for the Pals, as you can imagine, and for Muslims in general. When they found out I was Jewish they opened right up to 'the paleface', and the stories they've told me about the Pals in Lebanon and the Syrians would curl your short hairs. They'd see them all "elsewhere" in a heartbeat if it was up to them. Incidentally one of the guys was actually IN the Marine Barracks about half an hour before the hit, he actually saw it happen as he drove away...
Noteworthy, apart from our constant refrain of "IF ONLY, Bashir Gemayel had not been murdered by the Syrians, and IF ONLY, Sharon had gone all the way to Tripoli instead of choking out in Beirut 'cause the World was screaming 'Jewish Blitzkrieg' " , is that when I bring up the question of the Barak withdrawal they are very laconic....not nice, of course - but "oh well, it's the Middle East"....
These are Arabs I could trust, and knowing them confirms what I've learned over the years about Christian versus Muslim Arabs - in Egypt, in Israel, in Scandanavia and here in Canada.
It's the Prophet, stupid!
Anyway, I'm off again for a few hours, and will check in again later - - No Comment from #168 CastorOil...must be his question was satisfied! Great! (but then why do I have this niggling dis-ease? Hmmmmmmm!)

#174

The increasing role of the CIA is very worrisome. Check out IMRA for some chilling articles on the role of the CIA in furthering the role of murderes like Abu Mazen and Dahlan..2 soon to be leaders of the new "Palestinian democracy".
This is bad news. I hope Israel can resist this type of blatent interference. I do not think that the CIA and the State Dept. have Israel's interest in mind in this "roadmap". Its more like a roadmap to extinction!

#180 jb
you know, - I've been thinking about this too - I saw some of the articles on the IMRA line (can't keep up with the volume though).
How's this sound: - Israel's been working, just for example, with Defence contractors in the States for years - last major thing I saw was a report on a successful test of a sort of particle beam weapon!! that can intercept an artillery shell midflight!! Supposedly they are now trying to ramp up to make it semi-mobile for deployment purposes.

When I see things like this, I can't help but wonder if there are not a few folks in State who are taking a REALLY long view geostrategically, and asking themselves the question "why should we have such an ace technopower in full health and vitality with secure and comfortable borders, when we can just keep them dancing on a string, dodging rocks, bad press, and the UN...and dependant on our good graces".

Nah

AntiSemites

Seriously, though - Thanks G-d for the American Constitution and the "checks and balances" that keep these wolves from our throats - to say nothing of the wonderful confident and freedom loving American People.
Israel COULD resist, despite all, if the People of Israel had a voice in these things. If I gotta be a one-trick pony I'll nonetheless keep saying this - They Don't.
(When I see Yossi Beilin, Ron Pundak and Shimon Peres being the subject of police investigation for their role in the Oslo Accords, I'll start to have a little hope again.
Or when ONE politician has the guts and balls to abrogate the damned Oslo Death Train.)
As always - for the inside skinnie on what's really going on in our sick little Beloved Country - [Link: www.yamin.org...]

#158 Ranbutan rants—Expansionist Zionist dreams of owning it all...maybe one day expanding to take half of Lebanon, half of Syria....or at least keeping every colony placed in occupied territory......Are fast coming to a close.

Wrong. Expansionist Zionist dreams of owning it all died with the first Intifada. And dreams of driving out the Arabs were repudiated when Israel outlawed the political movement of Kahane.

The present problems are exclusively the result of Expansionist Palestinian dreams of owning it all...and of driving all of the Jews out of whatever territory they control.

Your refusal to acknowledge the asymmetry in the Israeli and Palestinian objectives is [insert pejorative adjective here].

#160 Zulubaby sez—P.S. It's disputed territory, not occupied.

I find disputed territory to be a worthless term, because it means different things to the two sides.

To the Israelis, pre-1967 Israel (plus Jerusalem) is Israel, and the rest is disputed territory.

To the Arabs, pre-1967 Israel is disputed territory, and the rest is occupied territory.

The "peace process" that the Quartet is determined to revive has been fatally flawed from the start, because the two sides do not share an understanding of what they are negotiating over. The Israelis want to talk about how much of the post-1967 territory should be ceded to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians demand Israel's unconditional withdrawal to the 1967 border (that is, an end to the "illegal occupation") as a precondition to the commencement of permanent status negotiations. Both sides agreed to negotiate a peaceful end to the conflict under the principles of Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, but they have utterly incompatible understandings of what this means.

The whole peace process is a fraud; it is impossible for the Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate anything given their inconsistent approaches to the problem. If the international community decides to impose a solution, everything boils down to which interpretation the outside forces will impose. The Palestinians are confident that their gloss will prevail, which is why they are always trying to internationalize the conflict.

Rummy sees the matter Israel's way. Powell sees it the way the other three members of the Quartet do, which is of course the Palestinian perspective. The only person that matters is President Bush. Let us pray!!!