Where I live I think if I expressed anti-war sentiment the likes of the San Francisco crowd, I'd be beaten to death.

As to your question, I don't really talk about it with anyone except for my mother (she's military).

Is the question towards us losing friends by way of differening opinions or friends being shipped out?

I guess I am confused as usual

Dangerous question... the fact that those of us that don't have friends/family in Iraq is the REAL reason we are pro-war (pro-liberation of Iraq), right? Much like the argument of brining up the draft so people won't be in favor of war because it will affect them personally.

I have lost some whom i think considered me a friend...but after they have shown their true colors I am glad I didnt truly call them friend.

Several so called friends are no longer welcome in my house.

I usually avoid talking about it with people who don't agree, but I did get my brother-in-law annoyed with me by criticizing the idiotic peace protesters... He apparently spent a "whole day" phoning people in Washington to oppose the war - then got pissed when Bush just blew off the protest. Seemed to think this made Bush a dictator... huh. The conversation came to an ugly end when he tried to "explain" and essentially justify those folks who vandalized the Sept 11 memorial ("Maybe they thought it was overly patriotic"). GRRR.

Any "friend" I might lose over this issue is not a friend.

I'm a Viet Nam vet whose friends are like minded folk.

Since most of my friends are actice duty, or retired military, it's a non-issue with me!

I don't talk about it either. I've noticed that people who are adamantly anti-war are also the ones who've been very upfront about not following the news the past year or so because they find it "depressing". I don't want to have to take the time to try to educate them, plus I'm not real sure what the intelligence level is of someone who deliberately blinds themselves so I don't want to go there about that either.

I have one friend who's PhD, second generation Egyptian, and she's pro-Palestinian. We've discovered we disagree about pretty much everything, but so far it's been civil.

At dinners when they're speechifying about "peace above all" and everyone else is applauding, the people who are *not* applauding are looking around and making eye contact and nodding at each other.

I think it's like abortion -- you can't change their minds, so don't even go there. And, equally, like abortion protestors, if the peaceniks start shooting people and damaging property then they need to be prosecuted and locked up.

I work at a Catholic school where the refrain from the pastor is, "If you want peace, work for justice." Which translates to: The US is the most unjust country in the world.

If I didn't do so many things that get the school in the newspapers; my students winning awards-mostly for civic projects, presentations, and writings, I'm not sure he'd want to rehire me. Nevertheless, like FOX I try to make classes 'fair and balanced.' When the kids asked, "Why don't we bomb the protestors?" I told them to remember the first ammendment and that it wouldn't be Christian.

However, every morning the staff is in my room to ask what I think is going to be happening. Thanks to LGF host and responders, I sound knowledgable. Thanks

Preview is my friend (chanting) should have been active

I try to avoid arguing about the war with friends who I know are less-than-logical on this issue. The sad part is that when we do end up talking about it, I tend to end up having a lower opinion of these friends - especially once they start spouting mad conspiracy theories about imperialism and oil...

come to think of it, I am developing a much more pessimistic opinion of the general populace after this great war debate.

No...you can't be my friend and be pro-middle east. And I wouldn't make friends with anyone that is...I know the history of the middle-east too well and have been aware for a long time that they hate the West and would like to see us blown off the face of the earth.
This clash of cultures has been in the making since the end of WWII and Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg as was 9/11.

Acquaintaces? who cares...there like buses anyway.

Yes, they prove their tolerance and my intolerance by insulting me and/or not talking to me. And they used to think I was such a nice guy.

losing friends no...getting in heated arguements, the likes I have never seen...yes.

A pacifist e-mail pen-friend of mine from New Zealand doesn't write me anymore. ~(:-

I am one of the only people I know actively for this war - most are ambivalent and could care less either way (except the one thing they do recognize is they fear future attacks), a few are anarchists and feverishly anti-American.

I don't think I've lost any friends over it, but I do get annoyed to see so many of my friends and their families and their friends "anti-war" simply because "war is bad," without knowing a thing about the war other than the talking points ("no iraqis were on 9/11 flights," "it's for the oil," and all that nonsense).

My opinion with regard to the War has definitely strained the bond between myself and two of my oldest friends. I knew that it was coming, though; both are women who have spent the eleven years since we left the University either pursuing graduate and post-doctoral degrees, and/or working for politicos like Dianne Feinstein and Ralph Nader.

One of the women (let's call her "Shelly") became so irate with me during a phone call WAY back in December that we have not spoken since. I had politely listened during with her thirty-minute tirade on the "dictator, George Bush, whose crimes against his people surpasses those of Hitler, of Saddam, whom he unfairly targets to end an oil-clan vendetta that his father started...". I had the gall to suggest that perhaps her comparisons were a tad FUCKING INSANE, and things went downhill from there.

The other woman to whom I refer (let's call her "Charity") just sent me a nast e-mail after reading my blog.

Oh, well. Buh-bye!

I certainly try to avoid discussing it with neary everyone -- my parents are against it for paleo-con reasons, so I can't even raise it with family other than my wife. I'm disturbed, though, that the clergy at my church feel entitled to speak against the war -- one saying "I can sympathize with the Iraquis who've been mistreated by Saddam Hussein, but our religion requires that we respect the earth, and if we bomb Iraq it will damage the ecology", another lamenting in a serman that it's the "separation of church and state" that has caused the war -- apparently if the government were run by the clergy, we wouldn't have this, is all I can figure.

The difficulty is that this forces the issue in everyone's face and can't help but have a divisive effect. I've been staying away from church functions to avoid talking about this drivel. As a result, I don't see friends.

Hmm. What an odd question. I don't think I've lost any friends, but I haven't pushed the point. There are some acquaintances whose anti-semitism has come out over this, and so I've dropped them from my list of people I'd consider crossing the street to talk to. I have some friends who have grown tiresome in their talk of Bush and the O-I-I-I-I-L, but I've told them that I don't believe their viewpoint and the issue is closed.

I have one sister that's normal and two that are Naderite greenies-- and I'm one speaking terms with one of them.

Slightly OT - my kids go to a very liberal Jewish day school in SF. One of my son's teachers (who is non-Jewish and who spent time in Saudi Arabia with her airman? husband) asked my son's class to write letters to the troops in Iraq. My son and his friends were pleased to do it, but some of the more PC kids asked if they could write to Iraqi soldiers!! (The answer was NO.) Jeesh.

So you folks who have seen active duty - do you think the guys and gals on the ground will actually see the letters? (The ones I saw were full of goofy Saddam jokes and good wishes.)

#15 hahh

I try not to talk about the war with my friends, cause most of 'em honestly have no idea what is going on. I guess being 22, most of my friends don't know exactly what's going on. They ponder the notion that this war is for oiiil, accept it (cause its easier not to think about it), and then forget about it (due to short attention spans).

Is there anyone else here in their mid to early 20's that actually pays attention, reads, and listens to whats going on?

another lamenting in a serman that it's the "separation of church and state" that has caused the war

whoa. that is the polar opposite of what every other anti-war protester would say. creepy.

I have a few Left-leaning friends. We agreed that our friendship was more important than an issue that neither of us can directly affect, so we stay away from the topic.

Not a problem to me, though -- I've noticed their opinion has started to change as things come to light in the course of the war... ;)

A sister-in-law and a brother and one friend are on the other side of the fence. We manage to keep it civil and realize our relationships are more important.

#22 tom

*raises hand* (but you really shouldn't mention your age, or else the women on this board will reject you *sob*;)

Most of my friends are apolitical, so the war hasn't been a matter of contention. Of what friends are politically inclined, most support the war in one way or another. I don't think I'd let a difference of opinion on the matter adversely affect any friendship, though, provided they're not out on the street shouting "no blood for oil". But I don't associate with that crowd to begin with...not even back in my more liberal college days.

I've probably ticked my mother off on a few occasions, though, but she's more anti-George Bush than anti-war. I stick with discussing the topic with my father (ex-Air Force) and brother (military history buff).

#21
Surprisingly, yes. When I was at boot camp, we got letters of encouragement from strangers (they were addresses Any Recruit). They were very touching.

Most people who support the war don't reach their position after reading one article and it usually takes a lot of thinking to come to the reality that force is the only way to remove Saddam.

Most people who support the war realise that theres two sides to every issue - every action has its benefits and risks. You have to weigh things up.

But I find the anti-war protestors with their shallow arguments and simplistic signs have no depth.

Of course, its a very superficial message they carry - "No war".

Signs don't mean shit. If they had actually bothered to learn about an issue BEFORE coming to their conclusion, , and still oppose the war, they would carry signs saying:

"Please allow inspections to continue for another few months so as to maintain unity within the UN security council"

"I'm not yet convinced that Saddam poses a substantial threat to world security because the evidence of WMDs is sketchy"

Even the humanitarian side would be more credible if they didn't carry signs saying "Stop killing Iraqi children" and they had signs saying:

"The current Iraqi humanitarian crisis will be exacerbated by a military conflict. There is a risk that the conflict will not be short and that food/medical supplies will not reach the population in time"

So far, no lost friends. Several heated arguments. Also, hearteningly, several heated arguments followed by the other party at least slightly changing his/her mind. In most instances, these people are kind of stunned to encounter a friend whose opinion they generally respect (perhaps I flatter myself?) who is "pro-war". The medium in which they generally swim is one in which it's assumed that all, you know, educated people are against the war. I'm happy to be able to open eyes once in a while.

tom #22,

Is there anyone else here in their mid to early 20's that actually pays attention, reads, and listens to whats going on?

Yes, me.

SecHumanist #16,

Took the words out of my mouth. My sentiments exactly.

I'm just glad I found this site. I'm afraid to express my opinion to anyone, so I just don't talk.
I really thought I was very alone - and it surprises me how many Canadians I find here. To read our polls and many of our papers you would think the entire country was anti-war.

I am lucky that I work in a small office where we all happen to think alike. Most of my non-work friends have been called up and are in the Gulf or in training. The rest are good ole midwestern conservatives like myself.

So... I am lucky in that reguard.

However, I have been shocked to find a few of my internet chat buddies are now irking me off to no end. That and my own mother is a lifelong Dem and can't see any good in Bush. Poor mom... going to the old-folks home early. (THAT WAS A JOKE!)

#28

Thanks for answering! I'm glad.

#29

Here's a sign that would capture my friends' feelings:
"I don't like Saddam either, but isn't this setting a bad precedent? What's to stop us from invading any old country we don't like from now on? Where will it end?"

Friends come and go. My convictions don't. I have friends that don't agree with me on lots of topics. However, if we vehemently disagree on a topic I find that I soon lose interest in them as a friend.

I do know people that I used to call friend that I now would prefer to kick in the nuts.

I haven't exactly lost any friends over the war, but I've certainly wanted to murder some of them at times. Although I love a good conversation about politics, I only enjoy having them with my family and my few conservative friends (and when I say few, I mean few ) because the anti-war people are SO anti-war that they just won't listen to reason, or even bother to take the time to think about anyone else's opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people my age who are for the war, I just don't happen to live where they do.

only the stupid ones.

I'm a Viet Nam vetern and I went through all this more than 30 years ago. Most of my friends now live in the conservative suburbs of Milwaukee--no problems. The activist Lefties live on the east side of the city near the UWM campus and are easy to ignore. I've had rational discussions with the few people I know who do oppose the war. It seems that their position is tied to their hatred of GWB as much as anything else.

My hardest-core Chomskyite friend (an adjunct professor, one might add) have come to blows over a few things, like when I said that maybe the reason academics are so soft on the war on terror is because they're mostly based in small college towns which are unlikely to be terror targets. But what the heck, we still get along on other things, and carefully select articles to send each other which will piss each other off the most.

Another friend, though, who's a little more earnest about this... hard to tell. I try to play the part of a raving rightwinger partly tongue in cheek-- as with my suggestion today that Charlton Heston should have been invited to give the Best Documentary Oscar so that he would have bludgeoned Michael Moore to death with it and then cried "Get your hands off Oscar, you damn dirty leftist!" But I have a feeling he looks at me at part in dismay, at what I've become. I don't see why suggesting that we should take over Saudi Arabia and rename it Lawrencia would make him feel that way.

My exgirlfriend (the Xanax Princess, if anyone remembers that thread) and her mother, both of whom I was still very close to, have not spoken to me in weeks after I objected politely (really!) to their calling Bush a "f***ing warmonger." You see, my ex's younger brother shipped out to the Gulf in January and they were none too happy about it.

I'm sure if he comes back OK it'll all blow over...

No lost friendships, but some that have certainly drifted a bit. We no longer talk so much to each other, and when we do it is pretty flat --- avoiding the issue.

I have "won over" a few. And they were the most reasonable to begin with.

And a couple frienships have really crystallized, because we have so connected over this issue (even very old friendships) and we have really realized who we are.

I actually have a few anti-war acquaintances, but we don't discuss the war and everything is just fine. The bigger story for me is that I've actually experienced a net GAIN in friends, if you can believe it. Dave Sims over at Clubbeaux, and Tex at Whackingday, just to name a couple.

Those who I would lose were already lost in the aftermath of 9/11...

In the days afterwards when folks were calling me from all corners of the globe to inquire as to the health and safety of my family members (stereotypical bronx irish catholic here... many family members of several generations are FDNY/NYPD) my erstwile "comrades" would call to chide me into going to anti-war demos only after a 5 to 20 minute diatribe about how we had to stop the war before it began would they go "Oh, by the way are your brothers and family members ok?"

my response? F you & the horse you rode in on! It surely opened my eyes.

Oh and while i may be a former idiotarian may I just add that I am also a former member of 2/502 INF. My prayers, hopes and encouragement are with our citizen soldiers

I have discarded the friendship of an ivory-tower anarchist PhD candidate who declared, during a debate with me on a public message board, that he wishes to kill anyone who challenges his views, including me. (30 minutes after posting this, he went back and re-edited the message to delete the part about killing. But not before I read it, and even after he knew I'd read it, he didn't apologize or try to explain. Not a "friend" I need.)

But I have gained the friendship of several more people at work who, due to the fact that I am an artist and look kind of "hippyish," had previously just assumed I was a leftie by default.

#22: me too.

Actually, most friends I have who were against a war are pretty diplomatic. Their line of reasoning goes, "The war is there, and the US will win. So, let us look into the future and hope casualties are minimal." I agree on this: war is raging, time of great discussions is over. It is time to think about how to help the Iraqi people. Many are donating for help organisations, including myself. Most people here actually think like that, as far as I have seen. I have not yet had to break up a friendship because of this (though some were strained), because real friends might disagree at times. It is the result that counts and the future.

I'm SO LUCKY that my wife is in complete agreement with me on this war: More than Justified and More than Happy to give the Iraqi people a chance at liberty.

If it costs us... it costs us. Liberty is a gift that keeps on giving.

I can't imagine how BAD it would be if my wife were strongly opposed to war. That would be TROUBLE.

Oh, and I believe I have made a few new friends on this site ;-) over this issue...

I have a friend - who I have known since we were both in 1st Grade in St. Paul.

He now tells me (knowing that I am a Jew, who is engaged to a Roman Catholic, and that Im about as non-practicing as one can get) that I have every reason to be for the war. I didnt know what he was talking about at the time, but I do now. I fully understand what is going on in his head.

This gentlemen is brilliant, but he got sucked up into the peace corps, amigos de las americas, and now flys under-privlidged children into the United States so they can have heart transplants. Instead of getting an MD, hes getting a degree in social work. He CAN become a doctor - he just chooses not to.

We argue about water rights - seriously - he feels that central government control of water is important, as is central government control of most things. He is a classical 50s and 60s academic! The son of a surgeon and a PhD mathmetician - he has NEVER been in want or need of anything - but he has barely put in a solid days work since highschool. His job is not particularly challenging - he tracks paperwork, travels to china, and travels back with the kids and their families. No 18 hour days with the boss breathing down his neck - thats his choice - but he doesnt get to decide about what to do with wealth if he doesnt produce any - as far as im concerned. Guess what his stance is? I havnt asked him. I dont want to puke.

On the other hand - My boss - he thinks that the war is evil - and just today started going off about how bush has destroyed the UN - segwaying into how the bill of rights is next - and if he touches that there will be armed rebellion... for somereason some people think that the UN = The Constitution... I guess they dont really have the ability to grasp reality. This same guy complains about how his older brother tells him he sold out because he has a job - and immediately segways into "how can I really have freedom of speach if I have to act a certain way at the office, and im tied down to this way of life or else."

My mother doesnt think the war is just because there are "Republicans behind it - and republicans are evil" Imagine her son working for the kings of neo-conservatism right now.

Everyone focuses on one thing - pro or anti - for the most part. Im a voracious anti-communist/socialist. Seriously. I feel that all forms of this are a slippery slope to totalitarianism. I happen to hate that too. I REALLY hate people that dont respect others property and hard work.

My friend in MPLS doesnt like seeing people abused by the powerstructure he is most familiar with - the US government - which is FAR from socialist - if it were socialist (he idolizes che now I guess) it would be different for him - because the socialist agenda is the RIGHT agenda (you know what i mean)

My boss - well - i just tell him hes insane. He is apparently - since hes worried about the Consititution, and thinks that it will be ignored if there is no UN... THAT is lunacy. His moonbat ideas are easy to ignore - I just dont get him started unless I have to sidetrack him from something. He really gets angry about the fact that the US will win, and we WILL be the sole military power in the world, and thats BAD when there is no UN to watch over our constitution (I know - it sounds INSANE, but its 100% real - hes really concerned about this 'issue')

My mom - well - I remind her who I work for every day. She disowned me once - she can try to do it again ;)

As for friends lost? They will lose me if they insult me. I drive them pretty close all the time. None of them have crossed the line yet.

#22: raises hand.

I'm a student, no less. AND a liberal arts major.

I'm close to losing a friend over it. She's a year younger than me, and I remember that I was like her at that age, but I was at least willing to listen to people. She won't listen at all. It's very frustrating, and our markerboard war is going to start telling in our friendship. Yes, this is the girl across the hall that I'm always babbling about. She's pretty much my only friend up here at campus, so I hope we can work this out.

Charles, this was a great thoughtful question. Thanks.

I have been wanting a long talk with an aunt of mine who thinks Pres. Bush is Hitler. I never liked that side of the family anyway.

Other than that, my friends (one of whom even belives Marlyn Manson is quite the intellectual) are pro-war.

Could be. The Yahoo Messenger traffic from my pals in the Medina Division of the Republican Guard inbox has been way off lately.

My contact with Muslim aquaintances has been mutually discontinued. The intifada strained an already delicate situation. The wall of lies they are brought up on is too much to accomodate. Their casual anti-semitism, their support and espousal of anti-west and anti-American forces in the world and the immediate community made me extremely unconfomfortable.

Thankfully reality is knocking on the gates of Bagdad.

Does my 16 year old son count?

Here's part of his latest email:

This is how the current administration lies to you.

Weapons of mass deception
From Disinfopedia, the encyclopedia of propaganda.
(www.disinfopedia.org)

Led into war by U.S. President George W. Bush, more
than 300,000 U.S. and British soldiers--many of whom
no doubt sincerely believe that they are helping to
make the world a better, safer place for themselves
and their loved ones--are about to risk their lives.
Outside the United States, however, most nations have
refused to support the Bush administration's plans
(W*) , and there is strong popular opposition to war
against Iraq. (W*) [1] [2] The absence of broad
domestic and international support for unilateral
action is striking in light of the administration's
aggressive public relations campaign to win the
"hearts and minds" of the world. (W*)

Experts have warned that a U.S. invasion of Iraq would
violate international law [3] [4] and increase the
likelihood of domestic and international terrorism,
making the world more dangerous. Moreoever, a majority
of Americans believe that the United States should
secure international support before taking action in
Iraq. [5] In spite of these warnings, few anti-war
viewpoints penetrate the major U.S. media or other
institutions responsible for informing public opinion.
[6] Indeed, the media appear to have adopted President
Bush's philosophy: "Either you are with us, or you are
with the terrorists." [7] This binary worldview of
"good" and "evil" nations has come to form the basis
of the Bush administration's foreign policy
communication strategy, with potentially dangerous
consequences.

The Bush administration and its multi-national
corporate sponsors have already squandered the
worldwide sympathy that the United States government
enjoyed following the terrorist attacks of September
11, 2001. Unilateral U.S. military actions around the
world, coupled with the administration's refusal to
cooperate on many international issues such as global
warming, land mine proliferation, and resource
conservation have contributed to rising anti-U.S., or
more likely anti-Bush, sentiments throughout the
world. These sentiments are especially strong in
countries that are likely recruiting grounds for Al
Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Moreover, it
is precisely because the U.S. military seems so
invulnerable that America's adversaries have chosen to
turn its citizens into targets.

He's smarter than this, but he has this intense hattred of President Bush. He does goe to school in Seattle. Damn, it hurts.

Tom
- Here's a youngin' (18) who isn't an idiotarian, and has followed politics religiously since he was 8. I've always been guided by truth, and my hero is the Gipper

Paul
- Next fall I'll be at Marquette University, in the heart of not-so-conservative Milwaukee. Wish me luck (lol) I'll need it.

Very good queston, Charles.

Well, my life the last few months has been an escalating war, on two fronts.

1) Friend
Most of my friends do not support the war, and are extremely suspicious of the US goverment's motives for going into Iraq. The few conversations I've had with them, while civil, have left me feeling quite frustrated. I now avoid the subject when with them, mostly due to their lack of interest, actually - in my small circle of close friends, I'm the only paying close attention to the day-to-day events of the war.

2) Work
This has definitely been the "bloodier" of my two current campaigns.

I live in Montreal (Canuckistan), and work at a small company of 20 employees and partners - 19 anti-war / anti-Americans, and... me (the token anglophone who also happens to be a Jew).

In my time with this company, despite the cultural differences, I've gotten along extremely well with these people, and even enjoyed working with them.

However, when the topic of conversation turns to rampant American imperialism (those Americans want to rule the world!), or blood for oil (those Americans are only interested in stealing Iraq's oil), or Bush is evil... something inside me cracks, and I just fucking lose it.

In the last few weeks I have had many heated debates with my colleagues, all without any backup, or bending of wills. I do my best to rebut their arguments (which are pathetically uninformed most of the time), but to no avail. They chose to believe only what supports their ingrained opinions and world view, and they dismiss anything else as propaganda.

Needless to say, I've become significantly alianated from my co-workers, and now spend most of the day lusting just to get home, so that I can come here and be with my true peers.

Maybe it's time to defect to the US.

I have since September 11 taken time to study islam, multiculturalism, political correctness, postmodernism and similar.

This had already before the war raised in me a greater disgust against leftism, that I really do not care to answer emails or phone calls from people whom I have know a long time and I know having left leaning opinions. I do not know wheater they understand why.

The war has not added much to this. My close relatives are interesting: we are very different otherwise ,but totally united in a pro american, pro western and pro isreael stance and totally against leftism, islamism and terrorism.

I hardly reacted on September 11. I was somehow prepared, sure that something would happen. Perhaps I was relieved that is was nothing still bigger, not a nuclear bomb.

But the events pushed in motion a heavy train and I started a search for knowledge, and that seem to have change me a lot.

I have not lost friends but I now have some
strained friendships. Then there are
some where conversation is quite measured.
I have it both ways being a Jew and conservative.
Not so much until the intifada did I feel this strain
with liberal non-Jewish friends here in the states
and when I spend the other half of the year in
Israel I get it too from my liberal (secular) friends.

No friends, and no relatives so far. Yes, I have at least one relative now traipsing around Western Iraq doing SAS-type things, blowing up the occasional missile aimed at Israel. Hopefully he'll come home safe.

In the other sense, also no. There's a guy who I work with, who I'm proud to call friend. He's almost diametrically opposite to me when it comes to the war. We should by all rights be at daggers drawn.

He's against genocide - but realises that so am I.

He's against children being killed by an unjust regime - but realises that so am I.

He's against people with guns terrorising civilians and violating their human rights. But again, he realises that so am I.

The reasons we disagree on the war are the very reasons that make us proud to be friends of each other. We have the courage of our convictions, and are willing to take a stand for them. Each of us post URLs etc to the other in the fervent hope of changing the other's mind. Both of us to some degree have had some success, as the US is not 100% spotless, nor Iraq (as opposed to the Ba'athists in Iraq) 100% evil.

Sometimes I feel he's being unutterably obtuse, refusing to face facts that are staring him in the face. But he feels exactly the same way about me, yet still calls me friend.

If anything, my respect for him has increased - maybe not for his judgement, but certainly for his code of ethics. I think his attitude towards me is exactly the same.

I haven't lost any friends, but I've definitely put my boss in his place a few times about the war. He's essentially anti-Bush (aren't they all?), and I let him take shots here and there for about two months. Finally, I started answering him. He's yet to have a logical response to any of the rebuttal I've given. He usually walks away in a huff.

He actually blamed Bush and Ashcroft for the incident with local police in a mall in New York where a guy was asked to remove a "Give Peace a Chance" T-shirt. So when the anti-war folks destroyed that 9/11 memorial in California and local police stood and watched, I sent him a link accompanied by this message: "I haven't figure out just how, but I'm absolutely certain Bush and Ashcroft were behind this action!" I also said that I bet that Bush and Ashcroft had given the order to shoot the dog that was killed in the police stop in rural Tennessee. :-)

He's leaving me alone now.

Oh, I've also learned, as a result of the war, that one of my friends at work is pretty much a Socialist.

Alas, I have lost two good friends over this issue. As sad as it is, I have no regrets -- somethings (i.e., principles) are far more important, in my opinion.

RadioMattM re #54, that must be painful. But give him time; a lot of young people start out liberal and then wise up. Isn't there a saying about how a younger man who isn't a liberal has no heart, and an older man who isn't a conservative has no brain?

I have not lost any friends but Iam trying to lose a few neighbors. I planted a sign in my niegbors yard the other night that read on one side " WE SUPPORT BRUTAL DICTATORS" and on the other side read : "AMERICA HATERS LIVE HERE". I have also been pulling up their NO WAR IN IRAQ signs at night. Only have 2 neighbors in my hood that seem to want to express their anti-American views. The rest seem with me on the issue.

#43 - I'm a former idiotarian too.

It's been very difficult for me. Most of my close friends are very liberal, and I love them all very much. I used to be one of them. 9/11 knocked some badly-needed reality into my noggin, but most of my friends didn't see it the same way. I was thinking about joining the military, and they were joining ANSWER. I talk about putting a bullet in the head of protestors who sneak onto military bases to perform vandalism, and my friends shrink in horror. They are mostly hippies, but damn good musicians and they really know how to party... so I've kept hanging around with them.

I've managed to keep most of my friends, but I've made it very clear what my feelings are about these issues. I've also warned them not to forward me political e-mailings unless they want a true debate, i.e. a response to everyone on the cc: list.

My place of work and my very RC church are both strongly behind our efforts in the war. The church is on the East Side of Manhattan, and we have a number of UN personnel in attendance at various times, particularly when the General Assembly meets. I sometimes think the pastor is talking to them when he makes reference to issues of just war, and offers particularlyt fervent prayers for the safety of our troops and allies. So in most instances I have little problem with people in my life who are against the war. As for my friends, most support the war, the ones that don't seem to fall silent when the topic of the war comes up in my presence. I don't ascribe this to any particular knowledge on my part, as much as I ascribe it to almost complete ignorance on theirs. They have a distressing tendency to parrot the NYT or the major networks. They seem to be surprised, nonplussed and at a loss for words when I mention something I've learned from an alternate source, such as LGF. So no frinds lost, and if I lose any because of the war, it's no big loss.

I have an Iranian friend who claims to be 4th generation secular, non-islamic. Ye when it comes to the war on terror, she follows the Wahabi party line. It's been tough maintaining a friendship with her.

Have I lost friends over my views on Iraq? No, I lost all of those people over my views on September 11th a year and a half earlier.

These were "internet friends" for the most part, so they probably didn't realize who they were talking to. They went hardcore left and blamed everything on the "military industrial complex and you know, Israel. Of course". I had just gotten out of the Army. I happened to be Jewish. I happen to have worked for 6 years in the Army MI Corps and saw firsthand how the islamic supremacists used every lie in the book to slander Israel and how the leftards were just lapping it up.

I never thought people I actually knew would celebrate the WTC disaster or the (almost more painful for me) Pentagon attack. But there they were. Especially the Canadians.

It turned me- a moderate liberal who didn't even bother to vote--into a Bush supporter. Thats something I never thought I'd be.

I'm very glad that I took that stand, though. It was hard at the time, but I found new friends eventually.
And I kept my self-respect too.

I wrote an essay on losing some friends over my stance ont he war over at my blog a couple months ago. I had some bad experiences if anyone wants to read about it.

i haven't lost friends per se, but the dynamics have certainly changed. people that i was once closer to are now not as close; we talk around the 800 lb. gorilla that is the war. we're not as close, and perhaps the word 'friend' has been downgraded to 'acquaintance.' it's a bit sad, but i don't really care - thinking this through 24 hours a day leaves me with very little respect for anyone who tows the so-called 'peace' line. it's a corrupt stance that can't be defended morally or intellectually.

semper fi - how do you sign up to send those letters to "any soldier"? I'd like to send some to the guys & gals whose butts are on the line.

I have several nephews in the Army and while it's odd to think of kids I used to babysit as defenders of America, I know that they are men of integrity and serve their country with honor.

Well, my wife is not too happy about my boycotting the Catholic Church services following the Pope's misguided pronouncements. And my teenaged son is furious about my boycotting the Academy Awards presentation. He and and his drama department pals had to find another place for their Oscars party. Other than that, no problems. But I would be a hypocrite if I caved on these things.

I have a few friends who are against the war, but most of them are in favor of it.

I am only having trouble with one of them. I'm a liberal, and she keeps accusing me of going over to "the dark side." It's really beginning to piss me off. My other anti-war friends and colleagues just agree to disagree with me. No big deal. Politics should not be personal, except in extreme cases (skinheads, Stalinists, etc.)

BC, #55

Hey, welcome to Marquette--home of the Warriors! Don't worry you'll do fine. There are a number of anti-idiotarians on the faculty, especially the Business School.

Meanwhile Marquette vs. Pittsburg, Thursday 8:40 PM!

i read your blog through a livejournal rss feed.. and through livejournal is really the only place i've lost 'friends' over my views. livejournal is overwhelmingly (atleast it seems to me) against this war. there are even polls that show a drastically different view of 'for' and 'against' than national polls. perhaps it has to do with the age that most people who have livejournals are.

irl though, i choose to surround myself with a few close friends who love me (& i love equally) and that means no matter how our opinions may differ we will always be friends.

-blonnie-

I live smack dab (...out of necessity..) in the middle of a traditional Canadian hippie paradise.

I've ticked off quite a few when I mounted Old Glory on the dashboard in my work truck a month ago as a show of support.

I keep the flag mounted inside the vehicle full knowing that to mount it outside wouldn't last long if I left the truck unsupervised.

None have had the minerals to confront me, but I get quite a few dirty looks and incoherent mutterings from the unwashed hippie masses when I pass...

At the same time, I took down my long-standing Canadian flag from our front porch recently...I'll put it back up again when our country demonstrates some common sense...

I've never heard from so many putz's in my entire life !!
Hey, wave the American (made in China ) flag all you want!! We have ton's of homeless,out of work, drug crazed idiots to go right here in the good ol'e USA !!. Before going out to (so called liberate) these 3rd world oil rich crapholes. Lets do a little work right here at home !!.. Our crime rate is so out of hand were afraid to go out @ night ! .. Our taxes, Hell you haven't seen taxes like were about to see !! My friends know how I feel & now feel the same way ! All I asked of them is to do is get there heads out of there REARS, & do some RESEARCH !! JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH !! Then form your own opinion...Or another good one...You do not have the right to bitch if you do not contact your Senator or Congressman with you concern's.. Get Involved !!

Steve Miller

Call the USO. They are in the phone book (or they damn well should be). They do all sort of things for servicemen-letters, care packages, shows, etc. If you want help out a serviceman, they're the one to call. Also, in case you didn't know, most airports have USO offices to help servicemen in transit. You can also send care packages and thank you notes through some Walmarts.

Actually, the left-leaning crowd from college (all of whom believed Ronald Reagan's fondest wish was to scorch the Earth with nuclear fire) have been drifting away since the Afghan War. We used to stay in touch with email, but I finally had to cut the cord when one of the less stable of the group called me a "hatred spewing racist" for siding with Israel during the incursions. A couple other BoBo's gave her "you go, girl!" and I decided to hell with them and quit the group.

My post-college friends seem more balanced, and the two boys are bigger right-wingers than I am. (sob) They make me so dambed proud.

The Canadian columnist David Warren (at David Warren Online) has a column on how he has lost friends due to his support for the US. I think it is entitled simply "Friendship." Those of you who like Mark Steyn will probably also like Warren.

I haven't lost friends but some people have distressed me, including unfortunately, my paleo-con father. He's a veteran of Korea, was at the Yalu when the Chinese invaded, so he has seen war at its most horrible. He refuses to understand why Iraq might be our business and repeats over and over how horrible war is.

I lost some very good friends after 9-11...I was for the war in Afghanistan. I've lost none so far over Iraq...I was against this war, though.

I haven't - I don't talk about it with everyone I know, but I don't hold back either. I'm in the volunteer rescue squad; I suppose we have some peaceniks in the squad, but I haven't run into them. Most of us who work on the streets (particularly in the section where I volunteer) are more realistic than most, I suppose. I'm sure some people where I work are against it, but I haven't talked to any of them.

Then again, I'm picky about my friends.

I've definitely become estranged from some friends -- in some cases to my regret, in other cases, not. The divisions that I particularly regret are the ones where I contributed to the falling-out unnecessarily by being too impatient with my friends when they didn't immediately come over to my side.

I have to remind myself that I myself was inclined towards the "let's not turn this into a cycle of violence" side immediately after 9/11 (and I'm a New Yorker), while the Arab/Israeli conflict I was highmindedly neutral about. It took time and a lot of long painful looks at what much of the Muslim world is actually saying for me to let go of such polite (and usually benign) fictions as ''all of the great religions aspire to more or less the same values,'' for example. Or to realize that ''The Arabs love their children too'' is a banality on the level of ''The Arabs like a filling meal and a good night's sleep too'' -- what should be asked, rather, is ''How do they feel about non-Arab children?''

hey "Sarge" - we have a simple word for you:

GAZE

and Thanks, semper. I'll look them up.

My boss and I tag-team teach a class at the local university as adjunct faculty. The last time I was up, we got a nice civil discussion going before class started. I gave my standard (heavily LGF-influenced) argument about how it is necessary to change Arab culture in order to eliminate the source of the present danger . . . and I think I won a couple of 'em over.

'Course, this was in the School of Business Administration. Don't think I'd pull it off in the College of PC Studies.

I haven't exactly lost friends over the war, but I feel distanced from some of them. There have been very heated arguments and there have certainly been times when I've felt that I can't continue to be friends with these idiots! But then we all calm down and I'd prefer not to have to lose friends over this. I find it extremely difficult though. Now I simply avoid discussing it with those friends. Last weekend two of them started in on Bush and what an idiot he is, blah & blah. I told them that I was not prepared to have this conversation, and that I was going to just walk away, and that's exactly what I did. I'm not doing it anymore. The next day another friend of mine said that they'd tried to talk to him about it too, and he'd done the same thing that I had, walked away. We had a good laugh about that. I don't have the patience anymore. I know how they feel, they know how I feel. End of story.

SecHumanist (#26)

Sneaky! LOL!

Charles,

Are you?

Most people I don't associate with any more revealed themselves to be dirtbags after 9/11.

If 9/11 had any good effects on America it was all the liberal cockroaches and PC terrorist supporting vermin showed their true faces.

Everyone I call freinds now supports the war in Iraq... and the President.

I have not lost any friends, though I only talk to my closest about my views. But this is only the beginning. British press is reporting how Britain believes Israel needs to be held to the same UN resolution standards. Soon everyone will be pointing at Israel and basically saying "yeah", without providing any support to the terrorist problems they face.

The left and right claim Israel is behind everything going on. In the long run, I fear they will be sacrificed to the Arabs to show how it "even handed" the coalition is. Thoughts?

My friend of decades, a disabled Vietnam vet ... refers to the country as Amerikka. Said he felt nothing, he would repeat NOTHING at September 11, except we more than likely deserved it. And he didn't want to talk about it any more. I left that alone, because, after all, he has PTSD and is nuts.

Then, a couple of months ago, he sent me e-mail asking if I was fukking happy that Amerikka is going to war. And when I answered that I thought it was necessary and gave some reasons why, he said that I am rabid and need to be put down.

Trading on his history, he also informed me that I am naive about the effects of war, and that I should never, ever wish war on anyone.

I told him fine, we could just exchange pictures of pretty flowers because I consider him to be lethally uninformed.

I haven't heard from him since, so I guess he's lost. But then ... I think he sort of got lost in 1965.

Haven't lost any friends over it and have made some new ones, above and beyond LGF. I've also been pleasantly surprised to find out how many of the nursing staff here have very similar viewpoints, making political discussions while on call interesting and satisfying. Also, the clerical and housekeeping staff are eager to learn more about the issues even though several originally thought it was just about the oil.

As far as old friends, most of them are either ex-military, current military or conservatives (who are happy to see I've finally come to my senses!) The one couple who are as liberal as I used to be are saved from idiotarianism by the fact that the husband spent three years in Cambodia working with survivors of Pol Pot. He continues to work with refugee survivors of terrorism as a psychiatrist. He's also passionately pro-Israeli.

I've been lucky. I have great friends.

So far, I haven't lost any friends, but unfortunately, I have a much lower opinion of some of them. This actually isn't all that new - it started with the whole Clinton impeachment brouhaha.

One thing I've noticed, though: My liberal friends think nothing of posting every piece of propaganda that floats through their inbox to our mailing lists. If one of the (few) conservatives on these lists were to do that, I can only imagine the shitstorm that would erupt.

#86 zulubaby

*grin* hehehe

I haven't lost any friends because I have to be so careful about who I choose to speak to. I must keep my mouth shut at work constantly as I work for a non-profit full of social workers, Ph.D.'s & Lawyers. I would lose my job if they knew that I was a conservative. I have some relatives that we have agreed to disagree. I'm very lucky that I have my husband and a few good friends that have a clue.

OK. My father and I never got along when I was living at home. When I moved away, we started talking. Now, I find out he's politically conservative and very supportive of ousting Saddam from power. We get along great now!

My mother has a lot of left-leaning socialist friends, but she doesn't get into politics too much. Her friends hate me because they are convinced that the US is the greatest evil on this planet. Sometimes she listens to them too much.

My brother is very pro-war.

My sister goes to York University in Toronto...'nuff said.

As for my friends, it depends. I've lost a lot of friends in Canada, but I get along great with my friends here in NY. Even my friends who are somewhat against the war and hate Bush are pretty civil when they argue. The few friends I have remaining in Canada are either conservative or Jewish (aka conservative) and they're all planning on leaving soon.

My cousin in Greece actually e-mailed me and said that he was happy all the people died on 9/11. He knew I lost friends that day and that I worked only two blocks away from the WTC. He can go to hell and I told him he better not set foot in this country or there would be consequences. I haven't heard from him since.

I have one friendship that's been seriously strained by our differing views on the war. Over the last year I have tried to defend against the following "arguments":

-Bush knew about 9/11 and let it happen

-Right wing anti-abortion extremists like Eric Rudolph are more of a threat than Al Qaeda

-Ashcroft is more of a threat than Al Qaeda

-It's about oil

-It's about finishing daddy bush's business with saddam

-We invaded Afghanistan because we want to build a pipeline across it

- US actions constitute imperialism

-I'm a "Chicken Hawk" because, at 45, I have not gone to a recruitment office and enlisted (less an argument than a slur)

-Bush is stupid

and so on...His style of debate leans heavily on "Straw man arguments"; he will typically twist, exaggerate and distort my arguments and throw them back in my face, inviting me to defend the turd he has manufactured from my reasoned rebuttals. This seems to be an all too common tactic among the anti-war crowd. They are so busy building and torching scarecrows and resorting to ad hominen attacks that they never really get around to presenting facts, historical precedents, or reasoned arguments.

I have come very close to completely not speaking with a person I thought was a good friend, and that was over Israel. Now I find myself losing respect for the her because she will see and admit evidence but then deny it.

She actually said that after Powell's speech to the UN, the US was right to go in. Then she keeps posting these weird "Peace" activities and dialogues to a supposedly nonpolitical email list. Now I truly understand the expression "knee-jerk liberal", she has been liberal so long she reacts that way without thinking.

Most of the people I see on a regular basis are anti war and don't see it as a pro Saddam/terror position. And of course I don't talk about any of this with my one Muslim friend, we just trade stories of dealing with teenage daughters.

No friends lost, but I have figured out which of my acquaintances and co-workers are full of crap.

Lost zero friendlies. Besides, five years from now you won't be able to find a person that claims he was against the war, unless we're talking major crack-pot. Just to know they'll either be ashamed of their previous views, or choosing to lie to hide them is a reward unto itself.

Did get pretty harsh with a co-worker who claimed he believed our GIs were going to be killing innocent Iraqis indiscriminately, and that of course is wrong. OK, no biggie, what's the punch-line Model4? He still happily spends his days making the software we're using to "massacre" them. I'm telling you (chuckling, wiping tears of mirth from eyes) they don't even have a clue to the magnitude of their self-deceit.

Here's what I do at school:

Amazingly, and contrary to the other classes at school, my senior class is resolutely unified about kicking some tyrannical ass over in Baghdad. The rest of the school differs a little bit, but I've developed over many years techniques that I work with certain people with regards to politics, and it seems to work so far with the war.

On the far far left, even where I have friends, I just generally lay off and don't mention the war. Such folks are usually the violently opposed to the war ("war never solves anything" etc). These people typically know my own views, since I'm the loudest political commentator on campus, and most seem to not even talk about it near me. I know that nothing I could do, even in the most heated arguements, would alter their views, so I don't even try.

Then you have the folks that are mildly opposed, mostly because they fear civilian deaths and don't know just how precautious our guys are over there. These are the type of people that I know well enough to have a good, fruitful conversation with, even though we may never agree on anything. There is a basic "agreement to disagree" one could say. A few teachers avoid discussing the war because they almost fear getting into a heated argument, but most find after a few minutes that I am quite willing to listen to almost any arguement, to be kind, but I'll refute it as effectively and persuasively as I can as soon as they're done. Finally our English teacher (who has a PhD, earning him the title "Doc") will debate anyone for any reason on any issue, arguing either side.

In my first few years on this planet I've found that in relationships, honest disagreements can exist, and if both sides demonstrate that they mean no ill-will towards another, especially when the issue is one they can't resolve on their own, good, honest debates will foster respect for the other person and maybe even their own viewpoint.

At church the clergy and a few others are anti-war - however a former Ambassador and UnderSec of State attends as well, and we had some wild debates that were well attended. the Bishop says it's up to each Catholic to decide in their own heart.

My friends at church are mostly in my KoC Council - and a few have sons serving overseas. So they are very much in support of the goals of the United States.

Without getting into what I do, suffice to say, nobody where I work is going to say anything anti-Bush, anti-war, etc. Well, a couple of people have, (Liberal Democrat African-American females- not being racist - it's just a fact) and I counseled them in a very friendly manner to keep it under their hats or find a career better suited for that world view.

The problem isn't so much their beliefs, but the lack of respect they show for the President, the military and even the Iraqi people - while wanting the rest of us to respect their right to "dissent."

I have some friends from back in the day, who are pretty much what we'd call idiotarians - and I try to debate them, but reason and logic escape them - And having to provide retorts to "No war for oil" gets old fast.

In the real world, I avoid the hot-headed rhetoric I use on these blogs - try to be nice while beating them over the noggin with FACTS.

The above mentioned friends have by-and-large avoided me for the past few months.

#56, Phil, you should ask them why do that Americans need to go 1/2 way across the world to steal oil when all they have to do is invade Alberta? It's not like the Canadian army will stop them.

Nope, I haven't lost any at all.

I have been through fairly recent moves from Houston to New Orleans and now just recently to Atlanta, and I really haven't had time to get chummy with anyone here, yet. I telecommute to the New Orleans office, so I don't even get out of the house much, even for work. (you can't beat the commute!) I always have been pretty picky about who I chum around with. I come from a consistently conservative family, and so does my wife. So, well, the "battle" over the war vs. anti-war issue never has come up, even in the families. We had one dedicated anti-war guy at the church I went to back in La, a WWII vet, but that's been about it. And he objected on scriptural basis, and was likewise refuted on scriptural basis, not the sort of thing y'all would be interested in here. I think.

I kind of drew an imaginary line called the "wacko line."

One of my so-called friends stepped over it when in a fit of unrestrained hatred he told a bunch of us that he was prepared to believe that 9/11 was actually instigated by the American government.

Once the "wacko line" is stepped over, there's no further communication on my part.

Well, I'm moving out of the northeast because it's just become too overbearing.

Friends? They know better than to bring it up.

But I don't talk to one of my siblings anymore because of this topic. Frankly, it literally turns my stomach to listen to the absurd moral relativism and outright hatred of America.

I pick my friends carefully and we think alike, so, no, I've not lost any friends over Iraq. However, I didn't pick my neighborhood as well...we live in a (very) liberal area (northern Colorado) and we are the token conservatives on the block. We are only one of two houses to fly a flag on our street. Funny thing is, both my husband and myself were raised by democratic parents. Although my in-laws grew up and realized the error of their ways and became staunch conservatives. My mom is hopeless - she and I argue politics all the time. Good thing she lives 800 miles away!

I have lost friends.

I work at a Jewish organization, overrun by liberals that run the gamut from comfy wives of wealthy professionals to card-carrying anarchists. Lemme tell you, going to work with some of these folks has been really interesting. Last week I joked with one of the anarchists (with whom I've long ago agreed to disagree), asking her what the protest schedule was that week. I told her that if I'd had my flag, I'd show up. When another co-worker (a Jew married to a Muslim) figured out that I would not have been on "their" side of the protest, she told me that my comment was inappropriate in the workplace. I found this particularly amusing, because she's been somewhat sheltered at work, unlike myself -- where I have endured sexual harrassment and a threat of physical violence that make this "appropriate" behavior pale in comparison. So according to the left, the flag is now a four-letter word. Hah!

I did lose a close friend, a Nobel Prize winning physicist, whom I guess didn't want to bother with a female who no longer worshipped the ground he walked on. When we were would have discussions about the Arab-Israeli conflict, he would say "when we need a Ghandhi and a King, we got a Bush and a Sharon." Eventually, during the spate of suicide bombings in Israel last year, I facetiously told him I guess he must be a racist, because by siding with the liberal left and expecting Israel to negotiate with Arab terrorists, he apparently thinks the Arabs are capable of no more than to behave like animals. Poof. Done.

And then, there's the (LGF-inclined) old boyfriend who was cheating on his artist girlfriend from Seattle (unbeknownst to and with me). She converted to Judaism and they got married a few years ago. It's none of my business, but I wonder, are artists from Seattle ever anything but lefty liberals? Oh Lord, deliver me from such evil thoughts!!

btw,

I've got a lot of siblings, so I can spare not talking to one.

I went through the whole loss-of-friends thing some years back when I became active about reducing immigration, so all my Berkeley PC friends are long gone. My closest friend actually became embarrassed by my views and asked me not to mention certain subjects among her snooty publishing pals. I thought about contacting her after 911 and asking whether she yet understood the problem of open borders, but I didn't.

By the way, I am far more concerned about the poison of Islamic culture than I am about this individual war -- a skirmish in the big historical picture, I'm guessing. It's why the US must end immigration from Muslim nations -- we have plenty of internal enemies, home grown and imported, as it is. The policy of continuing immigration as if nothing has happened is self-destructive arrogance. What are we trying to prove?

Interestingly, some of my immigration-restrictionist friends oppose the war, believing that it distracts from the more important war at home on the border. President Bush still rejects putting the military on the border, an action he should have taken on 9/12, but he still thinks that he can get Hispanic votes by pandering to Mexico. It's a real danger that a terrorist could easily contact a major Mexican drug smuggler to import anything and anyone.

If Bush took the necessary steps to enforce our criminally porous borders, then I would believe that he cares as much about homeland security as I do. Until he does, I remain skeptical. America's safety remains at risk because of PC policies along the Rio Grande and in the embassies of the Middle East.

As a Recovering Liberal, yes, unfortunately, especially among academic friends.

I've stopped discussing it, for the most part. When I do, I substitute the word "feel" for "think" and emphasize the torture of children, etc.

The other necessity is to make some sort of disparaging remark about Bush, but to say You Trust Colin Powell. Without this, the gate of receptivity never even opens, because 99% of anti-war is simply displaced hatred of Bush.

My conclusion: It is Irrational to argue Rationally with Idealists for whom Rationality is not a Path to the Truth, a Truth, which they, as Idealists, Know In Their Heart.

Sigh.

#89, GL, if they give you nonsense about Israel, just tell them that Israel doesn't have to comply, because the UN did not put their resolutions in the same category as Iraq. Iraq must comply, Israel gets a stern warning and a finger shaken in their face.

And if they don't believe you, just tell them to check it out at the UN website.

#102 Sandy

Hehe.

Seriously, though... Just like the military may fall victim to the fog of war, my colleagues have fallen victim to the fog of idiotarianism. They are immune to logic and reason.

Call me a fool, Charles, but I persist in the belief that you can talk sense to these people, and I think it is carrying a cost. My wife and I were supposed to have dinner at the house of a guy with whom I was debating the war late last summer; I was sending him some choice LGF bits, the occasional VDH, etc., and he was sending me the most juvenile anti-American claptrap available, and I persisted (usually but not always gently). Anyway, Saturday's dinner got cancelled Friday on a flimsy excuse, and I can't help thinking the outbreak of hostilities was the real cause.

Y'know, I've said this many times, but I definitely believe that people of intelligence and good will could conclude that, on balance, this war is too dangerous and risky. But the problem is, that's never the argument you hear. People can't seem to bend their minds around their Bush-hatred, and find it easier to blithely impute the most evil motives imaginable to him, and usually in ways that are not even logical, such as the ridiculous blood-for-oil thing.

It's sad, but I can't stop myself from trying, even if it strains relationships. If someone is reasonably thoughtful, I would think you could engage in a reasoned debate; but it's definitely tough sledding. The divide is indeed great, and quite sad. I'm just glad my wife is with me.

I can't stand talking to certain types anymore, irrational people who are full of hate and tenaciously stupid are just emotionally draining to try to reason with. I have no idea how you regular posters put up with the trolls, but damn.

I am fortunate that at least I haven't lost any friends over this, they are quite smart and aware of the world. Someone asked, if there were more 20 somethings like this. Hell yeah!

No, I personally haven't lost any friends over this. One group that has completely left me baffled is the Christian groups, Protestant. The ones that I deal with are as RABID anti-war as the SF chapter of ANSWER.

One well known Christian singing artist, Shaun Groves, wrote on his web site message board:

God is loving Sadaam Hussein as much as he is loving me. My sin is on par with Saddam's, in God's eyes. I am no more worthy to live than Saddam.

I almost freaked out when I read those and more damning remarks. His "sins" are worse that Saddam's?? What's he been doing in Nashville...somebody call the police. A lot of Christians identify their righteousness in their "no war" stance, turn the other cheek, etc., etc.

And have you ever tried to argue with a religious person? You can't win.

#77 Before going out to (so called liberate) these 3rd world oil rich crapholes. Lets do a little work right here at home !!.. Our crime rate is so out of hand were afraid to go out @ night !

The crime rate has being steadily declining for years. Unfortunately we are well aware of the 17% increase in murder for 2001. Factor out the 9/11 attack victims and the homicide rate changes to a 1.7% decrease.

This is the most serious threat. Today we are attacking Al Qaeda all over northern Iraq. Get with the war you puke.

I have been very surprised. About half the people in the office where I work were very pro-Clinton. They were clearly Democrats and they did not vote for Bush. However, they are very much for this war. They see Saddam clearly and see that it is a benefit to the whole world to have him removed from power. I am not sure if they like Bush more now... But they have a much better opinion of him than they did when the election was happening.

109 Brenda -

It's not just PC that is driving the open borders idiocy:

The Democrats love the new votes pouring in.

The Republicans love the cheap labor.

The Greens love the idea of America as nanny for every "oppressed" person on earth.

Which leaves EXACTLY NO ONE to try to change the policy.

The resident lower classes get screwed because the jobs that havne't already left the country, they now have to compete for with people desperate and happy to work menial jobs.

The middle and upper middle classes get screwed because they have to pay for the social services of the new immigrants and their exponentially reproducitve spawn.

Sigh.

MB (#116),

Perhaps I am making a mistake with my kids-glove approach to the "anti's." Maybe stuff like "Get with the war you puke" is the way to go.

I'm surprised to find myself supporting this war, felt somewhat ambivalent before it began but really put off by the non-thinking antiwar sentiment (just that, sentiment, eh?)

On topic though, I haven't really discussed my views with anyone except my wife and a very close friend, and even then, obliquely. I'm starting to think I must, if only for my own sake. Practically all friends and family are liberal and anti-war.

I and others seem to be practicing a sort af 'don't ask, don't tell' protocol. Of course, it is Minnesota.

I have an 18 (barely) year old daughter who has gotten quite involved in the antiwar movement locally. I think she's naive and has a right to it. I'm glad she has gotten involved in political thinking on any level (such as it is - but you have to remember what it's like to be young and idealistic.)

Now that the war has commenced, I think it will be irresponsible of me not to discuss with her any future protest involvement, and try to direct her into constructive alternatives which are more 'pro-people' than anti anything, and let her know how strongly I feel that we need to support our soldiers, and why.

Worktime friends are engineers like me and none are fanatics - some for, some against disarming Iraq, but none of them so religiously that disagreement is heresy. So no loss there.

Social friends however: here in Seattle, folks are shocked to find that a room has one occupant (me) who supports the President. I'm a music-playing junkie, and were I to actually argue in favor of Bush, or oppose the easy leftie assumptions shared by the musical crowd, old friends very likely would perceive a heresy and retreat in horror or disgust.

But folks shouldn't be left to assume automatically that they have the only opinion that matters. So when these self-appointed intellectuals (do all musicians think that's what they are?) put on the Bush sneer - 90% of the 'anti-war' feeling is simply personal animosity, with maybe three slogans to back it up - I offer some non-strident opposition. And though I haven't fired any of the old crowd (some of them longtime compadres from Berkeley in the 60s), I do think it likely that some of them will before long fire me.

I am a junior in a Bronx High School of Science ( a supposedly elite HS) which is pretty liberal. A lot of my friends are against war, but since most of em dont know shit about politics or current events it was fairly easy for me to convince them otherwise. I didnt really loose any friends over it, because most of my friends are hardly passionate about the issue, but ive been pretty annoyed at schools newspaper, which claimed 3 months ago that the entire Bronx HS of Science community was against war, and yet i knew of at least 12 ppl with different opinions

"Friends, don't have any, don't want any, don't want to watch them on Television."

Al Bundy

I have, but it was because I couldn't stand him anymore and it was from Sept. 12, when I got an e-mail from him about how we deserved 9/11 because of sanctions against Iraq.

At that point I realized that he was so far off the deep end that it wasn't worth remaining friends.

It's been a mixed bag. I have friends on both sides but we are all clear that our mutual respect and liking does not depend on this issue. I have very civil discussions with one friend who makes about the only smart sophisticated reality-based antiwar arguments I've heard. (I agree with her critiques, but we place different weight on different factors; arguing with her just reminds me in a good way that the whole situation is very complex. This is what taking opposite sides of an issue should be like!)

I don't recall any friendships lost due to a political argument, mostly because we can sense when we disagree on this and avoid saying anything that would set off an argument. Likewise with my brither and his leftist French wife. I don't have much family left and I don't know what the rest think, but we all tend to be very liberal on most issues, so they are probably antiwar. But they could surprise me.

I save my vociferous arguing for the blog and an email list/community where I am a longtime member. There are about 7-8 credulous naive moonbats and 2-3 voices of sanity :-) and the rest don't care. About once a month I get a private email from someone on the list thanking me for standing up.

I have friends still in Afghanistan. I live in a region that has a large Navy population and a I know a lot of people who have shipped out and are in one of the carrier groups out there. I have some Marine friends that left and haven't yet heard from (they're the ones I'm most concerned about). A lady I work with has a son who's supporting the 101st.

But the question at hand: nobody I know has fallen yet, and I hope none will. One of the POW pilots from that downed helicopter is from my area (or at least his parents are).

no, not yet.

i get less email and phone calls from some people, however.

Oh, I misunderstood the question ... thought you meant if we know anyone over in Iraq that has been KIA.

Haven't lost any friends yet (I'm still working on that though, situation should be rectified shortly)

No good friends lost, although I don't have many to lose. One was surprised, but I explained my position and he was decent about it.

On the otherhand, I did find out my sister is a communist... I knew she was a lefty, but I never expected that.

I have, but really its because I've stopped being "tolerant" (ie, I've stopped keeping my mouth shut when they go on a leftist rant).

Since they show no inclination to accept different views (apparently that sort of thing was my job) I have lost all desire to have contact with them.

I have, but really its because I've stopped being "tolerant" (ie, I've stopped keeping my mouth shut when they go on a leftist rant).

Since they show no inclination to accept different views (apparently that sort of thing was my job) I have lost all desire to have contact with them.

I am, as I write this, on the teetering edge of losing friendships, I'm afraid, and perilously close to causing some kind of ideological strife with my wife's family, which is a drag because we're having a kid in June.

I suppose I should expect it since, until 9/11, I was probably one of those people who thought Bush was an idiot and Michael Moore a pretty smart guy - hey, I've met and photographed Moore, and we got along pretty well. Now, well...

I mean, when you've spent years building friendships based on political arguments about the flaws of the Dulles model of American foreign policy and covert action, approvingly copping Gore Vidal lines and muttering darkly about the superpower down south (yes, I'm Canadian), you should expect that something like this would happen when you find yourself veering ever so steeply rightward (right? left? hell - there are idiots on both side of this topic nowadays, arent' there?).

So you get what you deserve, I guess. I suppose it started when I couldn't find an argument against getting rid of Saddam, despite a conviction that he's a sideshow in the whole, long course of war on terrorism. Talking out loud about this, I discovered that too many folks I knew were happy to leave him in place, just because they didn't want to see Bush' administration do the job. "They should have gotten rid of him the first time," they say, inferring that since the US missed its chance, it was somehow forfeit. I don't know, but I just couldn't see the logic in that...

Then there was the sudden explosion of anti-American rhetoric up here in the land of maple syrup and poutine. I was getting tired of that years ago, but this was, 'ow you say, the last straw. Enough. Over. I can't take anyone seriously who builds an argument out of demonizing people so utterly like themselves in almost every way. It's like anti-Semitism, the deal-breaker in any friendship, as far as I'm concerned.

My wife, a devout Catholic, doesn't like war. She's pleased that the Pope calls for peace, but she also gets a lot of joy out of pointing that out to peacenik lefty types who, when he visited Toronto last year, were going around acting like it he was Hitler brought back to life - the abortion thing, you know. We don't argue - I'd like to see peace, as well, but I'm not willing to buy it with the lives and freedom of the Iraqi people.

Some of the arguments I've gotten:

"So you think we should just invade any country whose government we don't like, then?" I get that a lot. I answer: Sure. If we could get Mugabe taken care of on our way to North Korea, I wouldn't mind at all. I know I'm dreaming, but seriously - tell me just what's wrong with that idea. I somehow don't see S. Africa doing the job, or anyone else in that neighbourhood.

"Why can't they just assasinate him?" You've been watching too many movies.

"It's about oil." Iraq is full of oil. So it's about oil. Sure. Lucky Iraqis - they have something to sell to help rebuild their country after decades of kleptocracy and murder. Pity the poor Somalis, who have f**k all to sell. The ball sure got dropped there, didn't it?

"War is evil. It doesn't solve anything." War is evil. No one loves war. But it does solve things. I'm the son of a WW2 vet. No one can tell me that that didn't solve something. You really ought to read more books.

I'm ranting. Sorry. This was a great question, Charles. It's been the source of so much tension in my life, recently. The only allies I have in this thing are mostly online, which doesn't help when you're biting your tongue at a brunch with your sister-in-law, who's making war cracks while you pointedly remain silent, while co-workers cc "Bush is a moron" e-mails around the office.

Conversion guide for liberal friends:

(assuming normal case of college implanted bias w/o serious leftist complications)

1. Use James Lileks as an ice breaker. Start from some common ground with humor. Email snippets, then links - discuss literary merits.

2. Use Friedman as a bridge - He's NYT, hates Bush, seems harmless. Sets scene that something has to be done about the third world morass.

3. After possibility of RC in Iraq is seen as conceivable, bring on Michael Totten - carefully - to break down any Blame America First or Moral Equivalency that the subject may be reflexively exhibiting. Also good for painting a positive prognosis.

4. Try some Hitchens to see if moral indignation can be revived. Getting the wider struggle into the friends world view takes patience.

5. Go for it. See if Lee Harris can be tolerated.

6. Shoot the moon. Introduce friend to LGF.

Rinse and Repeat.

The right way to put it is, my assessment of people has recently been proven less accurate than I thought. A very humbling experience.

'nuff said.

#22

21 years old, and I try to keep up with politics.

Of course I started doing that at age 12.

I was a strange child. I am even stranger now, I suppose.

#75 Realist

At the same time, I took down my long-standing Canadian flag from our front porch recently...I'll put it back up again when our country demonstrates some common sense...

I have a better idea: put up the Stars 'n Stripes and the Maple Leaf side by side and your neighbors will have no doubts about your sympathies.

#79 M

Oh yes, I most heartily agree. I have David Warren bookmarked...

Funny you should mention this -- I ended a years-long friendship over this today. Oh, it's been a long simmering thing, I suppose, but it finally came to "f*#$% you" today.

I have a brother serving in the USMC in Iraq. I was expressing my fears for him today since I saw that his unit was involved in a heavy firefight recently, and my "friend" chose that as the time to tell me she hopes the US gets a major ass-kicking to "teach Bush a lesson" and to prevent his re-election. When I pointed out (calmly, I think) that said ass kicking would involve the death of people like my sweet little brother, she got all indignant and accused me of being the real warmonger since I hope the US wins now that they're in it, whereas she had the sophistication and global elan to espouse a truly unbiased hope that the Iraqi partisans would defeat the "aggressors."

Well, excuse my nasty language, but what a dumb fucking ****. This is a person who is positively preening with self-righteousness, a person who is free to air such views because of the very people she hopes die en masse. I know from past conversations that she doesn't have a logical thought to back up her absurdly pollyanna views about how the situation might best be handled and instead cops out with the tired "war is unhealthy for children and other living things" type line. And for her to take up such a line absolutely infuriated me. I'm a calm person for the most part, but I damn near spat in her stupid face. I wish I had.

I'll be honest -- I find some of the rhetoric here a little over the top, though I rely on this site as a new source and a solace in the sea of politically correct bullshit. But I'll be damned if today I didn't think to myself that here is one place where people would understand the absolute fucking rage I felt when my ex-friend expressed her outrageously stupid opinion. So I guess I'm an LGFer after all. My former friend truly embodies the "idiotarian" label.

rick mcginnis (#132)

"So you think we should just invade any country whose government we don't like, then?" I get that a lot. I answer: Sure. If we could get Mugabe taken care of on our way to North Korea, I wouldn't mind at all. I know I'm dreaming, but seriously - tell me just what's wrong with that idea. I somehow don't see S. Africa doing the job, or anyone else in that neighbourhood.

I would dearly love to see Mugabe taken care of but, unfortunately, I dream along with you. You're right about South Africa doing nothing about it. Mbeki will not speak out against Mugabe. Mugabe has got to go. And soon.

Sorry for the off topic but these matters are close to my heart.

The problem I have is that I am a liberal... but I very strongly support the war. What this means is that my liberal friends get pissed at me when I talk about the war, and my conservative friends get pissed when I talk about how absolutely moronic Bush's domestic policies are. I don't understand why people who support the war and are otherwise liberal are convincing themselves to support idiotic conservative domestic policies. Just because they realize we have a moral responsibility to bring Freedom and Democracy to the oppressed people of the world (and I honestly believe we do), that doesn't make trickle-down economics work! I am not being sarcastic or joking. I'm almost actively imperialist, but I'm also definately opposed to Republican domestic policies. This does not win me many friends... isn't there anyone else out there like me? What happened to the Democratic party of FDR?

I wrote about differences between UN resolutions against Iraq and Israel, specifically to use in arguments like this. Hope it helps.

Basically 2 main differences:

Iraq resolutions are Chapter VII - specify serious consequences unless certain actions taken by Iraq.
Iraq is solely responsible for complying.

The vast majority of Israel resolutions are Chapter VI - recommendations, no consequences attached. Basically rhetoric to make the Arab block feel good.
The vast majority of them require both sides to do something, to negotiate. In most cases the Arab side hasn't complied with their part, but the PR is always about what Israel hasn't done.

Israel has never been subject to a Chapter VII resolution.

The Economist laid out the differences between Israel's nukes and Iraq's supposed nukes.

Most of my long-term friends are military/military retirees, including one who works in the Pentagon--it was his day off on that day--so my answer is no. (I'm military also.)

Oddly enough, my great-aunt, a life-long democrat, and, at first, a seemingly irrational hater of GWB, is considerably less screechy about him since the prospect of war has been looming. She's paying more attention to what's going on in the world than she ever has in her life and it's waking her up to a lot of realities (9/11, of course, was the first jolt).

She's been asking political questions, elementary ones for us political junkies, but for a woman who has devoted her life to blue collar work and raising children, giant steps: What's the purpose of the UN? Why are the British sticking by us? Why are the French against what we're doing? If Saddam's so bad, why don't the Iraqi people vote him out? What's the difference between a dictator and someone like GWB or Tony Blair?

Sure, some of the questions seem silly, but, like some of our so-called stars, she barely has a high school diploma. Unlike them, she will readily admit to her grave difficiencies in that area and will ask, rather than pretend that she knows already.

The fact that she's asking is heartening.

I'm so cranky these days. I definitely have an attitude about this whole thing and will verbally spar with anyone that even hints at taking the anti-war stance. I don't care if anyone doesn't like my viewpoint... They're the ones losing a friend. My immediate family thinks as I do - don't know if I could handle it if they didn't.
I love this website for the comfort to hear like-minded individuals. With my next paycheck I will make my paypal donation and I hope others are too. Money well spent. Thank you Charles.

Louise,

Your friend represents what I feel is the dominant, underlying hope for many who oppose this war. Many of them seem to say they support the troops, but it's apparent that a lot of them, deep down, want us to fail and get our rears handed to us on an Anthrax-covered platter. Those people understand that for us to lose, we will have to lose thousands upon thousands of soldiers ... and those people I have no use for. In fact, if I meet one of them in person who expresses their desire for death and destruction on our men and women overseas, I'll give them a severe thrashing myself. Bastards, the lot of them

Some relationships have definitely cooled as I've seen what idiots some seemingly-intelligent acquaintances really are. What has amazed me is how people who have never studied any of these topics or even read a paper for the past 10 years suddenly have such hardened opinions. I studied Islamic civilization in college, have travelled in Islamic countries, and read Arabic fluently ... and I have good reasons for being VERY pro-war. They have a few "facts" they picked up from the New York Times and Rolling Stone. This, combined with bizarre notions of economics, paranoia, and simple illogic has created some statements said in my person that have made me wince.

Some people I've met have complained that the US was too chummy with Saddam in the past, and that we didn't do anything about him way back when. They complain that pro-war people are the same one s responsible for him being in power. (The point of this "argument," even if true, escapes me; are they saying that millions of people should be put at risk of bioterrorism to pay for past sins?) Anyway, I ask them what they are doing to protest Robert Mugabe and the French government's support of his regime now. More often than not, they don't even know who he is, and they have no idea what a mess Mugabe's totalitarian regime in Zimbabwe is right now. Case closed -- anti-war folks, from what I can see, are coming to the table with too little, too late.

What bothers me is that most people who are anti-war think that being for war means that you are anti-peace.
I keep hearing "war is a sign of failure" and I think, yeah, but how many people wouldn't agree that the world is a better place because of the American Revolution, or the American Civil War? Is war always wrong? No. Anyone who thinks in those kinds of simplistic terms doesn't deserve to be listened to.

Robert, I am basically in your camp and there are some other liberal hawks around. I tend to be more favorable to market-based programs and business in general than most liberals though. I favor vouchers and environmental programs that allow utilities to sell pollution units - stuff like that. But unlike libertarians, I would fund art and libraries. I also happen to like edgy difficult art and bohemian communities!

I tend not to go to my favorite type of music and theater these days because I will run into stupid antiwar anti-globo statements that will enrage me - I wish there was more political diversity in those communities.

I lost blog friends over the events in Israel last spring (the horrific bombing campaign that culminated in the Passover Massacre). But I gained far more than I lost.

Nope, haven't lost any friends over the war. I've been steering towards the center for some time now.

I am no longer on speaking terms with someone I play cyber-pool with and chat with online. Whoop-dee-doo.

My brother and I just had a nice "conversation" about the war this evening... grrr.

#144 RMC
You've hit the nail on the head there! I've been living in Arabia for nearly 10 years and have followed local issues very closely. Now, people I thought of as intelligent read a couple of columns by Robert Fisk and suddenly they are "experts" on the Middle East and it's "all about oil" or "all some Zionist plot". I don't think I'm exactly losing friends, but I'm certainly reassessing my impressions of my colleagues.

I'd actually say a more notable trend in my case is "making enemies." the latest - my cab driver this morning. Can't keep my mouth shut when I hear others spouting the same old conspiracy theories, or when I see protestors spouting hypocrisy. I got caught in the middle of a recent protest on the National Mall, and I thought I would lose my fucking mind. It was like a damn carnival to those people. Even better was the "pink prtest" on National Women's Day ... as if celebrating womnahood has anything to do with questions of war and peace ... i wanted to shout at all of them, "Way to support women who are married to suspected dissidents, currently being raped in an Iraqi jail. What about THEIR women's rights?" Sickening.

OT, how many people here are Canadians? I'm one.

Hi Vince -- me too

#44
due to the fact that I am an artist and look kind of "hippyish," had previously just assumed I was a leftie by default.

god i know how you feel. i dont look hippyish, but i dont look conservative and being an artist ontop of that, i scream "left wing art fag". ive had so many people say to me "i thought you'd be marching in the streets!".
id rather poke my eyes out than be in an idiotarian protest.

A couple of my more peace-minded friends have problems with my opinions on the war, but it's OK. We had our one blow-up and we continue to disagree. Anyone who would dismiss my friendship because of a difference of opinion like this is no friend.

The real kicker is that both of these people have husbands who are fully in agreement with me.

The only friend I ever talked politics with was a German woman. We could spend hours drinking and talking without anyone getting hurt (badly), though we did do a lot of yelling. I learned interesting stuff when she got really drunk, like "hitler had some good ideas", though she never said whether gassing the jews was one of them.

After 9-11 that all changed. I wasn't able to listen to all the conspiricy theories...so we pretty much just talk about the kids and husbands now.

My husbands family are all Democrats and from Iowa...we don't discuss politics either.

heretic (#8)

I don't talk about it either. I've noticed that people who are adamantly anti-war are also the ones who've been very upfront about not following the news the past year or so because they find it "depressing".

You just summed up a friend of mine! "Depressing"!? Shame, poor baby. Doesn't keep up with current events yet has very strong opinions about, well, nothing really. I find it infuriating. However, we've been friends since I was ten-years old (he's older than I am, as are most of my friends) and I love him too much, so no fear of that friendship ever ending, even if I think he's a total idiot on certain issues.

I have one friend who's PhD, second generation Egyptian, and she's pro-Palestinian. We've discovered we disagree about pretty much everything, but so far it's been civil.

I'm not sure how you manage to remain civil, but well done. I would not be able to. It would be impossible for me be friendly with someone who is pro-Palestinian. No chance.

#17: I read your first blog entry, and I volunteer to be your Shelley/Charity replacement.

My unreasonably liberal friends and I parted over the Kosovo conflict some years ago. They are in a peace group who were all for bombing the hell out of Belgrade. I found that very odd. Now, of course, because a Republican is at the helm, they are against this war -- or so I've heard. I never speak to them, and quite frankly even thinking about them makes my head ache.

New friends I have made since know better than to spout slogans b/c they know I will start screaming, "READ. Stop getting your news about the Middle East from the Dixie Chicks, Pearl Jam, and Michael Moore. Read!!! Then we can talk. Until then, don't talk to me about this subject." I am pleasant, but firm, and this seems to work.

Seems to me that a high proportion of those who are fanatically anti-war and anti-Bush have something in common. Professionally speaking, they tend *not* to be farmers, factory workers, small business people, or electrical engineers. For the most part, they are *people who manipulate words and symbols* -- writers, professors (outside the hard sciences), lawyers, entertainers, ad men, etc.

Does this hypothesis fit people's experiences?

This thread is saddening and heartening at the same time. I amtrying to put my finger on what we all have in common, but it is elusive.

Yes, a realignment is taking place, but it's not as simple as "liberal " vs. "conservative" or even "capitalist" vs. "socialist." I wouldn't even say it's "isolationist" vs. "interventionist," although that's part of it. It's been written about before - some call its adherents "anti-idiotarians" or "eagles" - but we are having a hard time defining ourselves exactly.

I can identify one theme running through the posts in this thread: sensible people with real relationships and their feet on the ground, getting fed-up with a certain lack of common sense and emotional dislocation from others. I don't mean to say all decent sensible people are for the war and all against the war are disgruntled dysfunctional conspiracy-mongers. But when we decide to cut off contact with someone or find someone's company unpleasant even if we have to put up with it, there seems to be a consistent element of, well, "doesn't play well with others" that we are responding to.

I come from a big family that has been Republican on both sides since the Civil War (I do not exaggerate). So I only have to worry about Buchananite tendencies, which I deal with as necessary.

Thank God for Ronald Reagan. I credit him for doing more than anyone else to drive a stake through the heart of the old John Birch Society stupidity, and all the conspiracy-minded and anti-Semitic trash of the past. I thank him for the fact that I do not have to deal with relatives who spend all their time bitching about Jews and Rockefellers.

So the family front is secure. As for my friends, a lot of them are military, history, and science & technology buffs who share my views.

I have liberal friends who doubt or oppose the war, and the cause in general, but I don't anticipate turning against them as friends. They can turn against me if they want, because I do not back down or soft-peddle my views (you may have noticed), but so far they haven't. I'm confident enough in my own mind not to be bothered by people who aren't. I don't wear different faces for different occasions, and people who are going to hate me for my political views are free to hate away.

I have no anti-American friends. On 9/11 I found out that I did, but those few people are no longer my friends.

I've made a lot of new friends since 9/11, especially a score of new friends here at LGF. That's thanks to Charles, and to all of you.

The anti-war American friends and the anti-war European friends both labor under the same delusion: that their brand of utopia is possible.

But the approximation of utopia that we live in (not having to worry or even exert much effort to obtain food, shelter, and safety from invading hordes) is made possible only by the very real, anti-utopian existence of our ugly guns and the spilled blood of generations of brave people.

Orwell said it best:

"Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me'. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food that British sailors risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security."
-Orwell, Pacifism and War, 12 July 1942.

Pointing this out won't save any friendships, but it might at least give them a moment's thought.

#152 Vince

Present.

well everyone who knows me is aware that i'm a right wing lunatic... i've got a few school friends who call me the antithesese of their existences...

so no lost friendships... we all know where we stand, and anyone who is sitll around is cool...

but it's good to come from a conservative environment and for everyone toknow you're a conservative (and having to fight over all sorts of taxation and welfare stuff can highlight everything)

I can see how it's much worse for people in enemy territory or who are going through a change in beliefs...

just remember, no matter how bad things are, you could be the sarandons... Susan, her mother, and Tim Robbins are having a public fight over the war and the education of Sue and Tim's kids... can't be worse than that!

3 cheers for raving nutter mrs Sarandon!!! Our VRWC member of the day!

re #152 Vince

Present and embarassed

Hi #152 Vince and #163 Phil,

I'm ashamed to admit it these days... Why are we so afraid to stand up for our Western values??? Our fearless leader went so far as to grudgingly say that he hopes the Allies win the war, although he won't actively support them with the 6 guys we have left in the military.

/rant

Re the question, 9/11 crystallized a lot of things for me... and I had to distance myself from people when I saw that we didn't share the same values at all. Conversely, I'm now much closer with people who do. We can sneak around furtively whispering pro-US slogans. But seriously, I don't hide my views from people (although I may tone them down slightly to make it appear that I'm not as passionate as I really am). It's made for some pretty animated dinner conversations, where I'd be made to feel more besieged than a Republican Guard in a presidential palace.

re: 159

I'm an electrical engineer. I work in a building with (literally) hundreds of other (mechanical, system, electrical, etc. engineers). The vast majority of people in the building are conservatives ... there are a few exceptions, naturally - a good many of the secretaries and maintenance/cafeteria folks are left-of-center, some far left, as well as a (very) few of my engineer colleagues. I can usually have a civil, intelligent debate with my fellow left-leaning engineers, but the others ... well, I don't want to get the janitors, nor the secretaries, pissed at me

The irony of this is I lost a good friend who used to be a Republican (in fact he worked for a Republican Congressman in D.C. for a while) when I was a liberal. We had heated debates about Reagan back in the '80's which sometimes became nasty, but the fights always blew over. He was always somewhat anti-Israel, though, and I was always pro-Israel. As I began turning slowly to the right in the late '80's and early '90's, he began shifting leftward, especially after he moved out to LA and became involved in the movie biz. After 9/11, I called him because I felt a need to get in touch with old friends I had been neglecting and we ended up getting in a screaming match because he couldn't believe I had been stupid enough to vote for Bush. This from someone who voted for Reagan twice! I ended up slamming down the phone and cancelling plans I had made to visit him in LA. I did get a Christmas card from his wife, but I haven't been in touch since. It bothers me, since he helped me out when I was in a bad fix, but the problem is that when we discuss politics, things never stay civil and we can't seem to not discuss politics.

I haven't been in touch with many of my old DC friends lately, because I can bet they're anti-war and I just don't want to go there with them.

Regarding my family, two of my siblings are pro-war Democrats. My younger brother is a total political idiotarian and Bush-hater, and we got into a heated argument just a few weeks ago. But that's par for the course in my family - my dad once threw a coffee cup at the TV when watching "60 minutes." We never hold political disagreements against each other or I would have been disowned during the Clinton years. Friends are one thing; family is another.

Finally, BC, I'm a Marquette alumnus. I was a lefty in college and yearned for the socialist air of Madison - thought MU was terribly stuffy in comparison. I would imagine PC has made its inroads at MU but it's not as bad as the University of Wisconsin system. Believe me, I live among the lefties on the East Side (like Paul pointed out), and idiotarianism is indeed rampant around the UWM area - but I like living a block from the lake!

follow to 167:

I should say, "my fellow engineers, who happen to lean left."

I certainly do not count myself among those who lean towards the left ...

Yehudit:

Yes, a realignment is taking place, but it's not as simple as "liberal " vs. "conservative" or even "capitalist" vs. "socialist."

When I think of the people whose opinions I respect, I think they have at least a couple of things in common.

1. They believe in free expression, and the right of people to reasonably disagree.

2. They believe that people have a responsibility to think, and to try to think correctly and ethically. That is, people have an obligation to wisely use their brains, not just a right to shoot off their mouths.

This is not a complete list, just a couple of necessary points ...

159 David Foster

I had a theory a while back about... Why Smart People Can Be Idiotarian. The discussion goes on throughout that thread. A psychologist even rung in with her opinion.

For an application of this theory, see my fisking of that idealistic State Department lackey's resignation letter that made its way into my email box numerous times courtesy of anti-war friends.

You're generally right about people who manipulate words and symbols. For a discussion of this, see... Lee Harris' seminal "Our World-Historical Gamble", particularly Section 3. Quite insightful... anyone who doesn't build their own house doesn't have to reckon with the laws of physics, or the properties of wood, metal, glass, etc. For them, the ideal is real...

My sister and I are pretty much polar opposites when it comes to politics and religion. She's a far-left atheist, and I'm a right-libertarian Christian. We currently live about 20 miles apart.

Soon after 9/11, she emailed me stating that she was never going to back Bush because someone in his admin was blaming Clinton on what happened. I didn't reply to that.

She then began to send me all of the "Bush is Stupid" stuff, followed by the PNAC and Wolfowitz stuff, not to mention an article that those who are not anti-war are somehow brainwashed.

I didn't respond to those, either, but still emailed her and talked with her about other things.

Then she sent me articles about that "Islamofascist" bumpersticker being sold at a CPAC convention, stating that that is what Christians really think, along with a flurry of other, what I would consider hateful, ill-informed articles and jokes.

Then, it suddenly dawned on me: My sister was a troll.

Being the AOL msg brd veteran I am, I decided to finally flame back with facts, articles, my opinion and that of others concerning the admin's position, the way things really are, and held up a mirror showing the antics and vacuous arguments of the anti-war idiots. I asked her to question the involvement of ANSWER and its Communist stance.

Her reply was that, first of all, Communism was such an anachronistic term that belonged to the Cold War Era so long ago... (IMO, Communism=Left=Socialism=Progressive: Limburger cheese by any other name still stinks.)

She then proceeded to tell me that I believe the way I do because I'm younger than she (we're both into our 40s), I married too young (we, both, married at the same age. She divorced after 13 yrs and has remarried; I'm still married for 21 yrs), and that I don't have as much experience with those of other cultures. Regarding that last point, yes, she is married to a Malaysian of Indian extraction who is now an American, and they have several multicultured friends. However, these are "some" people who have similar opinions as she who are from "some" other countries. I've been all over the US, both living and traveling. She has stayed in the NW pretty much the whole time. She also blamed our upbringing in a small farming community as having too much influence on me.

Needless to say...WTF?!?! I could almost feel her patting my little hand through the computer.

That happened in mid-February, and I have yet to respond or even talk to her. I've started to email her on several occasions, but I can't quite figure out how to politely and in a loving manner tell my sister that she has no argument other than specious ones and that she is nothing but a condescending bitch. Any suggestions? I've pretty much decided to just drop the whole thing. It has to do with teaching old pigs new dog tricks by casting pearls, or something like that. ;)

Oh, I do plan on smoking a peace pipe with her soon. Her B-day was a couple of weeks ago. I didn't call or acknowledge it all, mainly because I dread speaking with her but, also, to make her squirm a bit more; however, I still bought her a present and will give it to her this weekend...maybe.

Thanks for asking, Charles.

#115 Lively

I would side with that Christian artist's point of view to some extent. I would cease my agreement when it comes to consequences though. Fortunately, we are not currently subject to God's immediate judgement.

There are much more serious (and temporal) consequences for what Saddam has done that for what this person has done.

I've had heated email arguments with a long-time friend and former roommate but we are friends who can agree to disagree (though not necessarily agreeably). I also have a Naderite Green roommate with whom I very much disagree yet still can live quite comfortably.

I can pretty much assume how my sister believes so I've not spoken to her about it. I've been pleasantly surprised to find that some of my formerly liberal extended family is drifting to the more conservative side of the fence and also more pro-war. The one holdout from whom I'm waiting is my cousin in Prague. I really want his personal opinion and what he percieves to be the Czech opinion.

My church's opinion is "regretably" pro-war. I use the quotes only because they regret that the state of world affairs has brought us to the point of war.

As a substitute teacher who lurks in lunchrooms, I get to hear the entire gamut of emotions from militant anti-war (humanities generally) to great disdain for the anti-war types and true supporters (coaches generally).

Interesting question Charles. Have you lost any friends or clients due to your blog?

#160 Yehudit,

I am not sure what the common bond is, either. I consider myself a liberal hawk who also likes free markets, et cetera. I think for me it's a matter of principles. That has been the one thing about the anti-war camps that has bothered me the most. They appear to either lack principles, or they're either moonbats. Moonbat, I like that word!

Example, I asked someone why he was angry about non-intervention in Rwanda, but at the same time angry about intervention in Iraq. The answer seems to boil down to how popular it is to be outraged about one versus the other, or which man was president. For whatever reason that angers me much more. I think at least here if someone is for or against something the opinion rests on facts and a reasoned analysis of said facts which correlate with a sense of right and wrong. I can handle a person who's against any and all killing being against all wars, no matter what. I might think they're wrong, but they're at least consistent. I can't handle a raging hypocrite.

OT: Required reading for all your leftist friends who insist the war's about oil:
It's NOT about oil.

I heard snippets of this on NPR (of all places) when I was in the car, and called them to find the transcript! I can't find the original article (on which the interview is based) on the National Journal Web site.

Anyone here from Boston? The Evil Geniusette and I have just about had it. We're actually moving to the Mountain Time Zone, and this is a major reason.

The Left: The People's Republic of Cambridge (Harvard Square is a slightly cleaner version of Berkeley, with a high percentage of the hippie-types actually coming from wealthy families). The Left actually marches against the war.

The Right: The South Boston Machine Democrats (Yes, the right is represented by Democrats in Boston. They're responsible for the Big Dig fiasco and are the reason the T doesn't run on time.) The Right is against the war because they want Bush to lose in 2004.

Add to this the liberal elite 'intelligentsia' (i.e. take your traditional myopic New York liberal and add a dose of Harvard/MIT arrogance). The intelligentsia is against the war because they believe they're smarter than Bush and they resent his success.

Overheard: someone receiving directions to an address in Cambridge, soon after 9/11: "It's the house on the street with an American flag in front... the only one." (no, this is not made up)

#139 Robert, the liberals need more guys like you. Every party wants to be in power, but over the last 20 years the conservatives have been gaining ground staying true (for politicians) to core ideals. The liberals, to keep up, have become very broad but very shallow (no jabs or antipathy meant). A coalition of totally seperate causes that had to forge a link for themselves that they supported all the others, lest their men not get voted into office, even if it's on the surface contradictory. So you've got Catholics for abortions, Jews for the fraction of blacks that are anti-Semetic, evironmentalists for the auto and steel workers unions, pretty naked PETAns for the drill-sgt. feminists, communists for the trial lawyers, etc. No voters could afford to be lost, so all internal debate and dissent were quashed (the lockstep charge usually leveled at conservatives). After this was firmly established, critical thinking and adaptibility atrophied.

What took hold as common ground was being against the conservatives more than for some things. Capitalism and patriotism being constants with the conservatives, some nasty influences crept in.

Then after ignoring the warning signs (conservatives too, for many years), radical Islam slammed into the political landscape. Conservatives were better built for the challenge. Liberals? It's been catastrophic. The multi-culti, moral relativist, anti-military and anti-American currents want to embrace it. The civil rights, gay rights, religious rights, women's rights, animal rights, sexual, pop culture and drug freedom advocates know they won't survive it. Literally. As a "party", the now-lethal contradictions can't be discussed and stress-fractures have appeared. The only way to hold it together is to rally around the sanctity of life and the security of the country, defeat the threat... wait... the conservatives are doing that, therefore they feel they, by definition, can't.

One way or the other, liberals will get their acts together eventually, but only after learning how to disagree with and criticize each other, and how to agree on some issues with the enemy... err... opposition. Maybe, just maybe one can be an affirmative action advocate who wants to triple our number of aircraft carriers, or an abortion foe that adores everything else the party stands for, or a vegan that loves her SUV and wants closed borders. Then it'll be possible to have the party grow and evolve, while casting off some of the unhealthier influences on the way. Who knows, another great Democrat will be in the Oval Office by then like JFK. Who proved trickle-down economics works :P

It took me a few hours, but it's clear that (post #3) I didn't fully read the question. My bad...

After a rather heated exchange of e-mails this past weekend, I may have lost a friend. She actually said that President Bush wanted the war to distract us from the economy and gave the usual line about oil. Of course, she lives in Boulder, so I should have expected it.

#172 cardeblu

I think we have the same sister?

BTW - On reflection, I think my life is much richer in friendships since 9/11. I no longer sweat the small stuff.

I no longer get very excited about tax cuts, gun control, the stupid nude dance bar they tried to open on main street, Bush vs. Gore, Clinton vs. Everybody, or any of that crap. I still have opinions about all of those things, but no real fighting words.

I can even listen to idiots who claim Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays, or who cling to silly static-state cosmologies, and I don't get mad.

We've got bigger things to worry about, and I'm going to enjoy Civilization while I've got it.

I have practically lost a couple friends, but from occupied Boulder, Colorado, I am engaging--with some success--the enemy.

My tools? Articles and readings...Can I post annotated reading list (7 or 8 items--most are online) somewhere?

(Those I've lost inclued Chomsky-ites, they are tough to bring around. When I ask, would you go to war if a nuclear 9/11 should happen?--no, says one. He still insists he is not a pacifist, but he remains unable to describe what conditions would change his position.)

--Orson

#158 - Melissa:

I gratefully accept your offer of Shelly/Charity replacement. I also just found out that my best friend's twin brother is no longer speaking to be because of my comments on Rachel Corrie (to wit: that she deserved what she got, because a) she chose to involve herself in a situation that she knew very little about, and b) she chose to believe intel from the Palestinians over that over her own democratic, non-terrorist government).

Thank you for reading my blog, I invite you to check it out whenever you like and mail me your vents and comments. I have an especially hard time finding women with whom I can have rational, non-relationship-damaging political discussions. You probably know about that from experience, youself!

No, I haven't lost any friends, but some relations have been strained. Those who know me have the understanding that I'm not inclined to compromise on matters of principle, and am always prepared to answer empty slogans and ad hominem invective with carefully thought-out, factual explanations. It is frustrating, trying to reason with someone who takes the word of an ignorant, bigoted, self-serving agitator over me, when I've been following the Mideast situation for decades and considered all different points-of-view before drawing my own conclusions.

#160 Yehudit: I'll take a stab, and Lord knows you and I disagree a lot politically. At a practical level, it's simply the ability to put human rights, especially life, higher in importance than politics.

Look to Tony Blair as a prime example. Even his own party is throwing an amazing man to the wolves because he is crossing party lines. I have no doubt I'd be backing Gore in an identical WoT, though he'd have had a tough road to face. Every time Bush has gone slow, tried diplomacy, uttered "religion of peace," he's gotten credit for doing this from the right. Gore would have met with derision and mistrust for doing the exact same thing. But mark my words, every time wanted to take the battle to the enemies, he'd have had the conservatives applauding his guts for doing so from the left (ala Ian Duncan Smith, who seems to have been most classy).

#170 Glen Wishard

3. They believe that people are responsible for their actions.

That's the most important thing IMO.

Then, it suddenly dawned on me: My sister was a troll.

I needed a laugh. That was quite funny.

I don't know that I've lost any -- there are a few borderline cases -- but I've almost certainly prevented myself from making a few (or more). I used to judge political conformity in BoBo NYC a nuisance; now it seems rather more sinister.

M. (#79): Here is the link to that excellent David Warren article.

Model4 (#99): Changing their expressed opinion later won't change the meaning of their behavior now. To quote Warren --

We will not be around here for centuries, we are also more numerous, and when one has discovered the bad character of a person, one must move on. We cannot even afford to appease in the limited ways that nations appease each other's unreasonable behaviour. For us, there is both less and more at stake, less violence to fear, but more demoralization.

But if we've got it bad, what about this brave blogger?

Lest I be misunderstood, I don't find idiotarian political conformity sinister because it's driving some big conspiracy against me; rather my perception that it's a sinister force working against our plain survival makes it hard to stomach prolonged friendly contact with moderate to severe cases.

180 - Evil Genius:

If not the same sister by blood, then at least the same in spirit...

someone: No, changing their sentiments later won't have done us any good in the here and now. But we'll be in that "later" together before we know it. As there will still be dangers to face in the future, I'll welcome their help at that time. Many people have come over to the pro side on the WoT, next to none have crossed the line to con. That's the kind of growth and change that will pay off dividends for decades to come.

There have been times in my life when I formed opinions and acted based on incomplete or bogus information. Having seen the error of those ways play out, the painful reminders will keep me vigilant so as to not allow them to happen again, and to warn others of the peril they might not see. If it takes five years for a lot of today's foot-draggers and tantrum-throwers to see the light, I'll try and be forgiving and accept their help when the next madman comes down the pike.

The biggest problem though, is that we don't have five years. (gulp!)

cardeblu (#172): Did you get her a LGF t-shirt? ;)

#152: Me too, Vince, though I left Canada out of discust nearly 14 years ago.

#159: David, I may be the exception that proves your rule. I'm in the public relations business, but am cursed with some strange beliefs (words have meaning, actions have consequences, etc.)

I have not lost any friends, though growing up as the sole libertarian in a house full of lefties has taught me to pick my battles. And experience has convinced me that it isn't my personal responsibility to correct the thinking of every misguided person I encounter...

#191 Model4

When this is confirmed, 5 years won't be needed any more.

i've lost acquaintances, mostly ex-co-workers, because of their anti-bush = anti-war stance. The only reason I didnt 'lose' them sooner was beacuse unsurprisingly, they lacked the courage to defend their anti-imperialist-war-monger point of view in the wake of 9/11

Well at least I give them credit for respecting the dead - even though they're wrong as to who's fault it is!

VJ Eniac
PS - I'm a Conservative Artist - possibly, hopefully, a growing trend? We conservatives have emotions too :P

Wonderful thread.

I haven't actually LOST any good friends, thank God, because some of my really good friends agree with me, and the rest, even though they don't necessarily agree with me, seem to be open to hearing what I have to say. I've made a little headway with them. Most of my problems are with people I know more casually.

Like you, Robert Thompson (post # 139), I still consider myself a liberal, in the old-fashioned sense of the word. It has been a total shock, and one from which I am still reeling, to find that some of my friends and family--and, indeed, almost everyone I socialize with casually--are on the other side of the fence from me about the war. And that they are so unintelligent in their arguments about it, so uninformed of the basic facts.

I begin to wonder--what is education? How can people be educated, and yet so unable to THINK? I feel the same way now when I read most of the NY Times, a newspaper I've read my entire life--it seems to be written by idiots. Was it always, and I just never noticed??

I find myself in the same situation, over and over--at a party, a dinner, at work, with a bunch of friends--and someone makes an offhand antiwar remark. Really, just assuming that OF COURSE everyone there is in agreement. And everyone else (except me) usually is. Perhaps this is because, as David Boston (post #159) says, I am one of those "people who manipulate words and symbols," and I often hang out with others of that ilk. As they get to talking about how awful the war is, how stupid Bush is, etc. etc.--I drop my little bombshell. I just quietly announce that, by the way, I'm pro-Bush and pro-war. I always include a statement of my impeccable liberal credentials, so they can't just dismiss me as a right-wing nutcase.

Usually, the room goes very quiet--a sort of stunned amazement. They just can't believe that someone who SEEMS intelligent, who looks sort of "with-it," who went through the 60s and all that, is not agreeing with them. Sometimes, they actually stop and listen to a few of my arguments. Another thing I always try to say is that, since 9-11, I've spent several hours a day, on average, reading and learning about all this stuff. Most of them, of course, have only read a few NY Times editorials, and listen to NPR as their main news source---GRRR!!

I puzzle and puzzle over what differentiates me from them--why have I had this radical change in my attitudes, and they have not? My current theory is that it is because I have been curious and educated myself on the facts, and they have not made the effort to do so.

I have a cousin who's more or less of the "loony left" type. Before this, I could manage to listen to her without getting too angry--but now, I find myself avoiding her because we just can't have these conversations.

I have a friend who has two children in their twenties--one is training in the Army Special Forces, the other is currently living in Vancouver and is very into the antiwar movement. My friend, their mother, is very conflicted over this, and over the fact that it has caused a rift between her children. My friend has almost no pro-war friends, and I think she was actually relieved to hear that I supported the war.

I agree with those here who have said that one of the main engines driving antiwar fervor is intense hatred of Bush. It's not something I understand, but I see it everywhere. I find myself becoming depressed and disillusioned by the amount of unreasoning hatred in the world, the lack of intelligent thought (especially among the educated!!), and what appears to be the triumph and ascendence of the Big Lie.

I feel that I'm morphing into something quite different than what I used to be. Actually, that's not correct--I feel I am exactly the same, just more well-informed, and I'm confused as to why I seem to be on one side of this and many of my old friends on the other. It's as though I'm traveling on a train--I thought my friends were aboard, too, but it was an illusion, since most of them now appear to be traveling on a train going in the opposite direction. And, to quote an old 60s song, "I can't help but wonder where I'm bound." I can't help but wonder where we're ALL bound.

89 GL

The left and right claim Israel is behind everything going on. In the long run, I fear they will be sacrificed to the Arabs to show how it "even handed" the coalition is. Thoughts?

I do have some thoughts on this very question.
For several days I have been on the phone to people
all over the world who are sitting on pins and needles
right now concerning Israel. The overwhelming consensus is that Israel is on the verge of being sacrificed to the Arabs.

Many share my opinion that Jack Straw, Tony Blair along with their EU side kicks have really done severe damage to Israel's image and that their agenda is quite obvious. From Ha'aretz today:
British Foreign Minister Jack Straw told the BBC World Service he understood Arab concern about what he described as "injustice against the Palestinians".
arrogantly stating:

"West is hypocritical on Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

And it does not stop there. Weeks ago Tony Blair spoke
before a Jewish group in London where his remarks were so over the top that the Israeli government had to ask him to please tone down the rhetoric. (This came from a news story in JPost or Ha'aretz and I apologize for not saving it)

But I did save this one which I am quite sure appeared
on the same day:
Straw creates direct link between Iraq, Israel.

I am no fan of Akiva Eldar but today he gave one
comment which really shook me:
"It would be the irony of history if, at the end of the day,
it is the
British
who make sure the Israeli mandate over Palestine comes to an end.

David Frum wrote in the National Post:

The issue that has divided President Bush from his European critics is not whether there should be such a state, but how it should come into existence.

Will it be imposed on Israel -- or negotiated from Israel?

Will it offer Israel meaningful guarantees -- or more broken promises? Will it be born as part of a larger Arab-Israeli settlement -- or will other Arab states retain the right to wage their own private wars on Israel?

For the past two years, President Bush has been consistently and bravely correct on all these questions. He needs now only to stay the course a little longer -- through the liberation of Iraq -- and he will find himself in a vastly stronger position to make an Israeli-Palestinian peace his way rather than the European way. To surrender that position now, in exchange for a vote or two in favour of a Security Council resolution that France and Russia will veto anyway, hardly seems like a shrewd deal. This Tony Blair: He's getting expensive.

I support Bush and I support the war. I understand this
is way too complex an issue to throw the entire blame on Blair but I do feel he set the stage.
However I am also thankful to Tony Blair for standing with Bush on the war but this is where I part company.
I do feel Bush is going to
have to sacrifice his most genuine commitment to Israel to appease Blair
so Blair can appease the arab world.

Ok. Thanks GL for allowing me to jump in with some of my thoughts.
Even though they were more than you asked for ; - ))

I live in San Francisco and I have to say that I am livid in my expression of disgust for Lefties on the subject of Israel and the Iraqi War.

Of course, I tend to crush any debate with actual facts - dates, numbers, articles - all memorized, which give the opposition nothing to actually argue with. They usually end up leaving me alone about a few minutes into it when they realize that I know actual specifics.

I have, believe it or not, managed to even sway some others to "my side" (the war is good, let's kick some bloody ass already), which is surprising. I think that a lot of people in San Francisco just say "okay, I'm against the war" because they are kneejerk liberals, know that it's the "popular" and "expected" thing to believe, but don't even know why. If you actually ask them specific questions, sometimes they just flat out admit that they never thought about it, or don't know enough to answer - at which point I tell them that it is entirely dishonest for them to hold an opinion on such a complex issue without knowing the most basic of facts. This usually does the trick. :)

Nat.

I've cut off relations with two longtime friends. It was a long time coming with one; he is a leftie, extremely anti-American (he's not American), though he can spew platitudes abou the wonderful qualities of the US constitution as fluently as any ACLU lawyer. I finally decided I'd heard enough of his bullshit.
The other longtime former friend is a 7th Day Adventist, and therefore a pacifist. He's as liberal as the day is long and passionately anti-Israel. The fact that Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the Mid-East, besides Turkey and I believe the UAR, means utterly nothing to him. Before the war, his pacifism was an oddity that I could tolerate; it isn't any longer.
The Buddhist organization I'm a member of is dominated by pacifists, no big surprise in an organization originating in Japan. Of course, virtually all the women, Japanese or US-born, are against the war. This includes my Japanese wife. It's no surprise that people who have rejected Christianity (former Christians are the majority here in Oregon) would tend to be politically liberal. What disgusts me is the number of men who are not only against the war but rabid America-haters (of course, they say they love America). I've lost every shred of respect for their political judgement. At a men's division meeting, I asked if we could at least agree that democracy was a desirable goal. No, we could not. The regional leader told me that Cuba was a good example of how a non-democratic country can be well led. I can follow his advice about the Buddhist practice, but as for his judgement on other matters...
Thanks for the opportunity to blow off some steam.

Oh, one more thing...

I notice that when I speak to San Franciscans about the war on terror, they're pretty much against that as well.

Then I tell them that I was *there* on 9/11, face to face with a burning building et al (Yes...I was, and lucky to have not gotten hurt or killed, but that's another story).

They pretty much shut the hell up after I tell them what it was like.

You see, like Europe, I don't think that it was "real" to a lot of people in the Bay Area. They saw it on TV, but they are so isolated with their own utopian views of the world that it didn't actually hit them that this was

1) America
2) Real

I moved out to California about three months after 9/11 for a new job (since NYC was in the crapper at that point, economically, and I basically lost my job there soon after that bloody disaster).

I drove all the way across the country over a period of two weeks. I had always wanted to do that and now (well, at that time) it seemed highly appropriate to actually experience America soon soon after it was so very well united.

Well, I have to say this: Everywhere I went - everywhere - felt as if it had happened to them. The *only* place where I didn't hear or feel that same exact emotion was here, in the Bay Area.

There are lots of reasons for it, I am certain. I've thought of a dozen or more, but the fact remains that three months after 9/11, the rest of America was talking about the war in Afghanistan and the war on Terror, and when I got to California, it was like there was no war and people just cared about where to get the next really hot bean burrito from. I know these are vast generalizations, but I think that most people know exactly what I mean and that it is fairly true.

So when I talk to people here about the War in Iraq, and then tell them that I was a witness in real life to 9/11 - and to other wars as well (I used to be a photojournalist covering combat in Israel, the territories (Israel, as far as I'm concerned), and the Lebanese border), they really have nothing to which to relate to when talking to me at that point. I think they become lost because it isn't actually real to them. They just don't understand. They not only do not know the facts, but even when they know some distorted ones, they cannot actually relate them to real events.

Sensing their weakness at this stage, I usually go in for the kill to leave them writhing in their self-induced mire of fetid ignorance...

No, I'm not after friends on the subject. I'm just after kill ratios. :)

Nat.

Short answer is I have "almost" lost two friends. I chose to just quit discussing the war, and wait to be vindicated by us winning it.

I have a number of French friends, people that are relocated from France to assignment in the US, or are married to Yanks and Brits living in the area - we still are friends, but political talk is a verboten subject.

Some are appalled by Chirac, others are appalled by Bush, all think 'so damn insane' is appalling -

Other friends - a reddish shade of green (ie communist environmentalist) German, married to a Lebanese Christian (who hates Israel, works for the World Bank, loves Robert Fisk) still are vehemently anti-American despite living here for almost 2 decades - and are concerned about US "warmongering" - we continue to have the same verbal donnybrooks - with several British, South African, and Sri Lankan friends joining in on the pro-US side.

I no longer talk to some relatives in Canada - their anti-semitic, pro-Palestinian, anti-american rants have just made it easier to ignore them than to listen to the stupid rants that CBC and BBC World Service teaches them. Most annoyingly, is that they are English Canadians - but act much more like Quebeckers.

The only other real break is with a good friend / old roommate from UK who now lives in New Zealand. Once very pro-American, he has caught the Kiwi disease of appeasment, environment, jealousy, and inferiority - and has become so anti-American that we talk very infrequently now.

Perhaps the worst part of those I know who are against the US and the war - they all claim to support the US and Brit troops fighting the war, BUT...

#196 blogaddict

I feel very similarly about reviewing my political views of the past -- I'm busy checking and rechecking, because the definitions of liberal and conservative seem to have shifted beneath my feet. Yep, I still think the Vietnam war was a fool's errand, but I wish Daniel Ellsberg would snap out of his current delusions.

Speaking of old heroes whom I can no longer stand, what has happened to Ralph Nader? He practically invented consumer protection and the right to have a reasonable expectation of non-lethality in products. A few years ago, he was the guy who asked 100 corporations to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of stockholders' meetings -- only one company thought it was a good idea. I can't imagine Nader doing that now that he has signed on to the marxist tenets of the Green Party (including open borders).

[Link: www.chuckbaldwinlive.com...]

Still, I'm the same feminist that I ever was, if not more so. There's no bigger threat to women's rights than Islam, but professional feminists are obsessed with the latest BS talking points from the ACLU about evils of Ashcroft. Instead, women's groups should be organizing to prevent further Muslim immigration to the US.

So, it's mixed. I think I've been intellectually consistent, while individuals and organizations I once admired are now in the thrall of ideology and pay no respect to relevant facts. My sixties song would be "What a Long Strange Trip It's Been."

havent lost any friends, and my friends pretty much criss-cross the spectrum, politically. I'm generally known, though, amongst my friends as "weird, intense about weird stuff, moody, stubborn and, uh, weird" (quote from one recently). We've had some rousing conversations about it all, though, but always as friends and that's just something that's understood. It'd be real boring if all my friends were just like me. I have to entertain myself somehow.

Re: 159 (David) and #160 (Yehudit)

I'm a corporate lawyer working in NYC, and while not as much as a litigator, my job necessarily involves working with words and symbols (well, mostly words). I don't think that working with such necessarily is an explanation, only an observation of a perhaps deeper cause. It is the purpose behind such work that is important - if you work diligently with words/symbols to expose truth, that's good. If you work to lie, confuse, or distort, that's bad. Essentially, the major factor I see in those who support the war is a COMMITMENT TO REALITY. The antiwar argument is built on lies (Bush=Hitler, Iraqis can vote for regime change, war solves nothing, etc). The pro-war argument is built on truth (inspectors wouldn't really work, the danger of WMB in the hands of Saddam is too great, etc). While many will be drawn to "working with words" in order to lie for their own ends, there are many people (and many in my law firm) who know B.S. when they see it and can only speak the truth about things.

I have a friend who worked in the World Trade Center for the law firm Thatcher Profit. She ignored all news for months after 9/11, she was seriously traumatized. Now, she's watching the war unfold on TV, she stays up all night watching the videophones from Fox News. She says she's against the war, mostly because she's deathly terrified of another attack (and that's understandable, given she was nearly killed on 9/11). But unfortunately, she refuses to make the connection between her feelings and her logic: that by taking out the risk now, we won't have to worry about a WMD attack by Saddam or his agents later on. I think that direct, personal fear is a great motivator for many people, at least those against the war who aren't idiots. I still have nightmares about September 11th, but it only motivates me towards pursuing all of those bastards to the ends of the earth. It's either me or them, and it's going to be them, God willing.

I visited my family in Princeton last weekend. We talked about the war around the dinner table. They were all against it, I was all for it. They couldn't believe I was for the war, given that I live in NYC and it's so close to the threat. I said to them: "If you are willing to live in a world where a murderous dictator who hates America has nuclear weapons, then you can be against the war. I am not willing to live in such a world, and that's why this war is necessary." Thankfully, none of them held the delusion that inspections would work. It's a piece of reality that stopped them cold, and I think I changed some of their minds, at least for the while.

As an aside, I'm a very religious Catholic, but I'm appalled over the stance the Church is taking on this war. I can't listen to it anymore. Their priorities are totally screwed up - preaching more about the evil of the war and practically ignoring their own problems with sex abuse. I'll listen to their materialistic pronouncements when they get their own act in gear - otherwise, they should get back to teaching theology.

It's a commitment to reality that's important. Anyone willing to see something for what it is, to THINK, to rationalize, and to see the bigger picture of the world - those people are who I mostly see in forceful support of this war.

Re #199:

Of course, virtually all the women, Japanese or US-born, are against the war. This includes my Japanese wife.

I feel your pain. I went to Hiroshima and saw the peace memorial. I agree that it was a terrible thing to have happen, but it shortened that war and brought Japan to its senses. Now look at it.

The Japanese also have a very different view of abortion. Those little statues you see in temples with the red neckerchiefs are to memorialize unborn children. Including 'voluntarily' unborn. I was shocked to find that out, but at least they acknowledge that the child existed even if they could not have it for whatever reasons.

I have to console myself that there is no 100% agreement with any one person, but the happiness we bring each other means much more than the 5% of vehement disagreements. And we know the disagreements are for events far removed from our daily lives.

Oh... and about my own friends: I do have one paleoconservative friend who I can't talk to anymore about politics, because he's a Buchannite who thinks America's becoming the Imperial Empire. He's also mildly anti-semetic. I have no use for that kind of crap. I have many Jewish friends who, when the suicide bombings were common in Israel, would get on their cell phones and call their relatives there to see if anyone in their family was killed on the busses. It was a very, very sobering moment to see stuff like that. All of that happened before 9/11...

There are some people who simply do not see the bigger picture on how 9/11 changed everything. They have their head in the sands, thinking problems will go away if they ignore it, or that it's all Israel's fault. I can't take it anymore...

So yes, I've lost friends. I've stopped speaking to people about these things. It's amazing how many people are self-delusional.

#197 selpaw

I hate to say it, but it's already happening.. brace yourself for some truly disgusting tripe:

the U.S. administration will impose an even-handed peace on a reluctant Israel.

[Link: www.upi.com...]

Damn reluctant Israel... always so reluctant to die.

Some more garbage here.

#200 Nathan..
My shop in Silicon Valley has exactly 1 person opposed to the war (out of 8). It's not all lost.
That oddball felt secure enough in his support circles that he was able to say "Anyone who supports the war is stupid."... and other things that were rather more offensive.
I do definitely feel your pain.

wow. nice to see so many other people like me. Essentially liberal but pro-war. I guess? I dunno.. that confuses the shit out of me, too, and a lot of people i know. I seem to be the only one among the people i know who had this bizarre flip-flop after 9-11. Except my husband, but it wasn't a flip-flop for him. He's always been more conservative than i am. I'm pretty lucky in that i didn't get a "liberal education". I actually learned stuff, and teachers weren't shoving political agendas down our throats in high school (LA, 80s), but i spent hours reading "Maximum Rock n Roll" (never dug chomsky, he seemed to be unable to shut up) and i suppose that's where quite a lot of my leftiness came from. SF, though, was never somewhere i wanted to live.

#22
Yeah, I'm 21. I live in Seattle, and the only people I know who are pro war are my mom and my 10 year old brother. Dad's infuriatingly paleo-con. Kids in my classes wear anti-war apparel and stickers and the teachers make snide little anti-Bush comments during classtime. I don't think I ever want to talk to my friends here again... seeing them in this light makes me ill. Even the guy I've been profoundly enamoured of for the past year or so has become heartbreakingly irritating.

So, yeah, my anti-war stance has wrecked most of my outside relationships.

Thank God I'm moving to Phoenix soon, away from the "Support Jim McDermott!" bumper stickers and the Seattle Times.

#209

I"m pretty willing to bet anyone $10 that if you go to the corner of Carl and Cole streets here in San Francisco, you will find exactly one (1) person in favor of the war, and at only a certain time of day: me, when I'm going to get my coffee at Tully's.

Actually, I tell a lie. One of the guys behind the counter at Tully's (an artist in art school, no less) is mostly ambivilent to actually supportive towards the war, but he doesn't say so out loud unless he's actually speaking with me.

Nobody else is. Then again, half of the stores are owned and managed by Arabs as well, so that doesn't exactly help. And everyone else is a raving left wing activist.

These are sad times in sad places, my friend. Sad times...

Nat.

#211,

Sarah, I'm so sorry. I can only imagine what it feels like.

You should print up your own bumper sitckers. I had an idea for one earlier today:

It is all made up of bright yellow (the kind in 'Caution: Radioactive Hazard' warnings tickers), and stark black. And on it is simply a bulldozer. A big side view of a big beautiful bulldozer. No words, nothing to state. That's all there is.

I think those would make excellent bumper stickers, don't you? :)

Nat.

P.S. Gimme 10% if you actually decide to print them up. *grins*

#211 Sarah eg.

Oooh. 21 and intelligent? Uhh... (in Joey voice:) How you doin?

If you actually ask them specific questions, sometimes they just flat out admit that they never thought about it, or don't know enough to answer - at which point I tell them that it is entirely dishonest for them to hold an opinion on such a complex issue without knowing the most basic of facts. This usually does the trick. :)

The morning of the first big NYC peace rally, a friend called me and asked if I was going. I said only to heckle, but probably not even that. She was mildly surprised I was not antiwar and asked me to send her some info. What struck me was she had no strong opinion one way or the other, but she was mindlessly going to the rally because her friends were going, a group from a synagogue we both sporadically attend was going. I will not critique her for being too busy to inform herself, but if you don't know what side you are on don't go to a rally! This is a very smart well-meaning moderate professional in her mid-40s, not a loony lefty. I wonder how many of the protesters are like that.

Correcting my own post, it's my pro-war stance that's isolating me.

Thanks, Nathaniel (#213) I'm trying not to be too broken up over it. I'm young, and maybe Phoenix will be less infuriating. I am jealous of your scandalously ambivalent art student. I don't know if we have any relatively sane baristas here... I'm afraid if I were to ask they'd spit in my coffee.

I desperately want to put pithy bumper stickers on my car, but it's new, and I just know it would get keyed the first day. Heck, if I had your brilliant bulldozer sticker, there probably wouldn't be much left of the car by the end of the day.

SecHumanist (#214),

Hey, when's the next LGF meet? I need to begin assembling a new coterie of friends.

Deep in the heart of 'liberal Massachusetts', I find most of my friends to be of the same opinion. (We support the war, although don't *love* it.)

Very strange that most of us were very anti-war in the 60's and believed the "all wars are wrong" garbage at the time. Guess we all grew up.

I find even co-workers to be supportive of the war, yet not loving it. A necessary evil we hope will be over as soon as possible.

Could be because most people I know and am close with are neither liberal or conservative. We're independents and love/loathe liberals and conservatives equally.

I find it's the people who regard their political ideology as their religion to be the ones who get into real arguments. For some, it's Bush. For others it's Clinton.
Still fighting the same old battles.

BTW:
For those who think I can support this war because I have no personal stake in it .. you're wrong. I have family in the battle areas right now. I can't join myself because of my age.

Regards,
Chris J.
Boston, MA

#216,

Yeah, come to think of it, if you live in a liberal area it might not be such a hot idea. :)

I"d probably do it (if I had a car...I had one in Virginia and Maryland but sold it before moving to NYC and then to SF), but only to use it as bait and sit comfortably in the shadows for a few hours with an automatic paint-ball gun to make sure I seriously offend any and all who think of keying my car or try to vandalize it.

Word would spread quickly were that to happen.

I've got a story to tell about that. When I lived in DC with my brother, several years back, he used to be a bike messenger on Fridays to get some extra exercise, cash, and let out some steam from the regular desk job thing (he was on crew for about eight years before then and is built like a brick wall).

Anyway, one day, some guy stole his wheel outisde an office in downtown DC. He was furious. The police told him (naturally) that there was nothing they could do about it, etc...

So he chained up his bike in the same exact place a few days later and stood in an entranceway nearby with his bike seat in his hand, watching for a few hours.

He saw a guy trying to do the same thing (no telling if it was the same guy) and came storming out of there in a mad rage. Apparently people were absolutely shocked at first, and then cheered him on. I think he beat him up a few times with the bicycle seat as well before the guy ran off for dear life.

He never got another bike wheel stolen again, btw. :)

I think there was another point fo the story but I can't remember what it is as I still am craving a cigarette (almost 6 days now without one...yay..) and it's late and I"m starting to fall asleep whilst typing away.

Oh, and I didn't know that LGF actually had meets.

BTW, I was incredibly surprised when I first came to LGF, seeing as there are non-lefties in SF. I thought that the Stalinists in this city had all of you shot. I had no idea that this wasn't the case and that some of you did resist the Gulag imposed upon you. So my hat is off to you. Good show. :)

Anyone want to organize a counter-demonstration? :) I suggest paint-ball guns again. I'm tired of shouting with words and getting drowned out. :)

Nat.

Hey, when's the next LGF meet?

Hmm, an LGF meet would be good, especially the new Young Footballians group that seems to be emerging in this thread :)

Tom, Ariel, Hans (er.. that might be a bit of a trip for you), James P, Brian, Minstrel, Sarah eg., anybody else?

I'm in L.A., Sarah in Seattle/Phoenix, Hans in Germany (right?), where's everybody else?

I grew up in a liberal hard-core democrat jewish family in North Carolina (raleigh/durham), but my dad just hates bush regardless of what he does or says. sadly, we basically cant talk politics anymore because i am so disgusted with the dem party, and the anti-war movement. he even started getting a subscription to the nytimes... at least we have lots of cheap paper for house-training a pet.

however, dont feel sorry for me, feel sorry for my friend who goes to BROWN. he cant talk about anything serious with about 90% of his friends.

the kicker had to be when an acquaintance (sp?) sent me a "sign this petition against war" email. i asked, 'what's this?' he responds, 'you should sign it.' i say, 'do you know anything about the issues surrounding it?' his repsonse was classic: "No, I just dont like war".

nope - I rant a lot and they're used to it. I take just about any chance to get my lesbian businesswomen friends to stop voting D as a kneejerk reaction. Got them the new thought police and virtually normal.

i'd rant a lot, but i'd go through every day with laryngitis and a sore throat!

... this scum bag owes me 350 dollar for a flash animation I did for his company in America 3 months ago( as you know , I'm Israeli)
when I finally got mad and asked him why no check, after three months, I got this reply///

" ...I sent your check to your piece of shit country on two different occasions and now you write me this.

No wonder we are going to war with your third world assess countries over there.
"

errr, last I checked, Israel and America are strong allies,, I didnt know know we were at war... not only a moron, but an anti- Israel, anti Semitic , weasel. unethical one... and i made him such a beautiful flash cartoon. so yes , the war has lost me some " clients" or at least my payments from them.. truth is, i wouldnt except money from his filthy hands now anyway... grrr

205 Sydney

You work with words, but as a laywer those words have to be *anchored in reality.* Not the symbolic.

You, like most lawyers, are governed by Rationality, not Idealism. -- Which is why a lot of people hate lawyers ... because they aren't concerned with "feelings" or "symbols" etc, but are trained to think and repond to facts, reason, etc.

So, you're safe. : )

Good morning to you all. I come from Greece where people have a very clear opinion about this war and generally about any war. I wanted to find places in the internet where i could see how you the people of the USA really feel about the war and in generall about the world. It would be very easy for me to start swearing and accusing all of you, but that would be completely inefective. I reached sites like this one, and others very different than this one. After a couple of days it became obvious that the thousands of miles that stand between us depict the distance in terms of how different we feel about many issues. But that is normal and expected. Being honest with myself i could not accuse you for having a different perspective of things. I accuse you of not trying to let Iraqis and many more nations have a different perspective. I accuse you of brutally interfering in other countries. I accuse you of being soft, of being victims of lethal propaganda. Again i say that if the propaganda was not offensive and lethal i wouldn't mind. Every people is obligated to fight the power abuse or misuse in their country, but when it affects the entire world you are to be accused. You would be suprised to find out the number of wars, juntas, enviromental and humanitarian disasters your country is responsible of. And the sad is that i as a Greek feel so guilty of not helping as much as possible to improve things in the world. Only if you would you could have saved millions of people, the whole world; by letting nations find their own way, by stopping exploiting 3rd world, by not manipulating UN NATO and other organizations, by using you tecnological and scientific progress not for war purposes and not only for boosting capitalism. To answer any probable criticism let me inform you that what i'm saying here goes also for Europe and to some extent for the Greek people and goverment too, in spite of the fact that greece and europe have caused far less disasters compaired to UsA, if any one can measure the human suffering.

There is no point in watching moment after moment the war. The information given does not make anybody wiser. All you need to know is that there is a war going on (and some others too away from the lights of live coverage).Getting into many details prevents you of thinking clearly. What all the people in the world are anxiously waiting for is to see you the people of the USA raising your voice against this war and the paranoia of your leaders. The USA is the most powerful state in the world. If only it functioned corectly it could really save a lot of people. It's up to you people of the USA to put the pressure upon that, that being more of a duty and a responsibility rather than choice.

Komis, i appreciate your candor. But how could we be the most powerful state in the world if we were not "functioning correctly"?

all these little shit-in-a-ditch countries have their hands out to us, and so we fill their hands, and they keep shitting in ditches. Where does this money go, this tech help, this ag help, this medical help, where does it go? What else do these places want? How far up do we have the lift them before they can walk on their own feet? How many millions of people have to die before the dictators who steal from them can be wiped off the face of the earth? For how much longer will the money i pay in taxes (nearly $1300 a year, as someone who is self-employed, and i get no freakin health insurance, and i'm supposed to like it) go to pay for the upkeep on assholes like Mugabe & Khameini? What if we told all these little shit-in-a-ditch countries to take their outstretched hands and shove them up their asses, pull themselves together and get on with the 21st century already?

We wouldn't have to police the world if the world would police itself. Its like being the yard attendant at an elementary school at recess time, where the entire population of kids is on welfare AND speed.

So guess what, now those shit-in-a-ditch countries may find out what its like to not have the outstretched hand filled, because the money's getting tight here in the US. If we didn't give out so many billions of dollars in foreign aid every year, we might be able to fund our schools properly, our police departments, care for our elderly, feed our own poor, care for our ill and uplift the local downtrodden.

Manipulating NATO? That's a joke, right? I mean, we spend how much to prop up the european economy with our military bases overseas? Manipulating the UN? Are you serious?! We just kicked the UN to the curb, man... see ya.

Lost friends? Hmm, I wouldn't go that far. Restrained friendships? You betcha. Some of my pals are fence-sitters, but a few are real bleeding hearts. There's not one party that passes without someone taking a crack at Bush, calling Michael Moore a "genius" or Ariel Sharon a "zionazi fascist". I just sit there in a state of frustration. When I do offer some of my opinions I'm often accused of buying into " American propaganda" and laughed at - not that it worries me much, but still. I've made a few anti-idiotarian friends since 9/11 (which was a BIG wake up call for me), and I haven't looked back.

Not surprisingly, a few of my classes at Uni have also turned into America-hate fests of late - often starting when the tutor/lecturer makes a snide comment about Bush (surprise!), and the students have a grand old time while I'm there wincing. Again, I interject at opportune moments, but it's a drop in the sea.

C'est la vie, mes amis

#225 komis
Funny, we agree about the perspective, but I accuse your country and your neighbors of all those things.

But one glaring correction: there are no countries in the world that have done more damage to humankind and the modern world order than those in Europe - the stench of imperialism and exploitation around the world has been the apogee of human suffering - the Arab world is now trying to emulate Europe's sordid past - how ironic that future conflicts and rabid hatred arise from the dysfunctional and artificial nations your nations have created all while you condone its resurgence.

You're right, it is up to us people to do something about the war - which is why I actively support it and make sure my representatives know this. Just because you and your neighboring nation love to wallow in a world order of repression and tyranny and are to morally weak to try to change it, doesn't mean we have to be.

At the end of the day though, the ultimate blame lies with the violent cultures themselves. If you think that this world order will change by giving in to their every whim and desire and two-bit dictators and Stalinist tyrannies, then you've got a lot to learn about the world.

No, I don't have many friends.

On an Australian forum (I'm on Oz) I have been threatened with violence after I told someone that his anti-Americanism and selective morality and socially suitable left-liberal opinions about everything disgusted me. I also said he was not an Australian. This fool was never a friend though.

I have sometimes felt like coming to blows with what I consider insidious un-Australian traitors who hold the United Nations Debating Society and Talkathon of Tyrants in such high esteem. In their ignorance they are unaware of the was the UN has been used to undermine Israel and even to subvert US authority.

BTW: If you have a response to the following statement please email it to me. I want to bury this guy! :o) Thank you. :o)

A recent statement:
"...and yet the majority of the population in modern Israel is Palestinian. Yes that's right, the majority are an oppressed, decimated and trodden down people."

You can read the thread here:
[Link: www.politicsforum.org...]

Thank you. :o)

Komis you should come to Australia and see how you Greeks are really the racists. There is virtually no intermarriage between Greeks (who think they created civilization) and any other Australian populations. Also who are you to talk given your treatment of the Macedonians.

Thanks for saving the Thessalonika Jews Not.

People when you think Greece think France...

#226

ever think your tax bill of $1300 might be better spent on sorting out your shitty health system, than on throwing missiles at anyone who pisses you off around the world? And here's a newsflash for you:

Investment 2001 Billions USD

EU-15 Direct Investment in the US 808.3
US Direct Investment in the EU-15 640.8

Source: US Dept of Commerce

So you can stick your 'Military base economic props' where the sun don't shine

Oh, and lets compare US overseas aid (to those 'shit in a ditch' countries no doubt) to Military spending:

1999 - 2000: 9,581 million USD
1999 - 2000 313.3 Billion USD (not including residual costs associated with previous military spending- debt repayment etc)

and those are Bill Clinton 'strave the military' years.
So lets have a bit of perspective on priorities here. The US does provide a lot of foreign aid (badly needed), but it also benefits from world markets, and throws many more tax dollars at military might (more than the rest of the world combine I believe)

Oh, and lets compare US overseas aid (to those 'shit in a ditch' countries no doubt) to Military spending

Which does more towards providing a more secure country? That's debatable. I'd argue for the military spending and hope that we use it properly (as I believe we are doing in Iraq).

History definitely shows us that regions like the Middle East and Africa can consume concessions and aid with an implacable appetite - the fact that Kennedy's grain shipments to Egypt accounted for 60% of all the bread in the country and was rewarded with the typical anti-American rhetoric (not to mention a riot against the embassy, burning down the library, and shooting down an American plane), is just one demonstration of that fact. Aid can buy temporary goodwill, but only military action can create a fundamental paradigm shift that the Middle East so desperately needs.

It's all fun and good to say we should just throw more money around the world, but at least spending the money on the military can be controlled and produces tangible and controllable results - tossing money into the void of corrupt and decrepit regimes ruled by unsavory despots doesn't make all too much sense.

Come with a practical solution and they we can get somewhere, but as long as you're dealing on the idealistic plane we won't get far in any discussions.

I had one "fight" with a guy at work. He was jabbering on and on trying to cut me off and sound impassioned and finally I said,

" Let's face it Rob...you don't give a rat's ass about the world peace, or freedom of expression, or social justice or the UN or the poor tortured people of Iraq or any of the other issues. This whole thing is just an excuse for you to put on a big show and kick Bush in the nuts one more time isn't i!? "

Oddly enough that shut him up. I went go get a soda from the vending machine and nobody's talked about it much since then. Which is probably a good thing.

SecHumanist (#219)

Hmm, an LGF meet would be good, especially the new Young Footballians group that seems to be emerging in this thread :)

I'm in LA. Am I allowed to come even though I'm um, older than you? ;-)

What I'm still waiting for is Charles to make it to one of the LA get-togethers. NTropy's in LA too. Well, in OC, I think, but that's close enough. PDM's here too. I think there may be others.

#232 reality check

Sorry folks, troll feeding time...

To keep it short -

Europe investors put 4 to 3 into the US?
Investors like SAFE investments. Why do you cite data indicating 33% more European investors find the US a safe investment vs. US investors find EU a safe investment as evidence that the US is messed up?
Go beat your skull against a wall over that one, maybe you will figure it out...

Any "friends" I might have lost over this war are long gone, given a heave-ho with a heartfelt "good riddance" back in the Fall of 2000.

#232

Follow Up-

Osama Says, 'People like to bet on the strong horse.'

Your country is the most powerful because:
The money spent for weapons is more than the money the 10 following countries in the list spent altogether in 2002.
You are the wealthiest country in the world.
You have world wide influence, used to secure your (economical) interests.

Your state is not functioning corectly because:
'we might be able to fund our schools properly, our police departments, care for our elderly, feed our own poor, care for our ill and uplift the local downtrodden. '
You are one of the few democratic states with only 2 political parties.
You are one of the few democratic states were assasinations of leaders and attempts have occured?
Civil and human rights are still often violated within your country.
The people of USA are kept uninformed about situations USA is part of. I don't know about everything that's going on in the world but i wouldn't blindly support my goverment without feeling informed about things the greek goverment is doing.

Concerning this argument consider the following:
Are you familiar with video of donald ramsfeld shaking hands with Sadham in late 80's? And if you are, what do you think not about the specific issue but about the hands US officials are shaking nowdays.
You talked about the aid US is paying and how it affects the operation of the social system. Let me inform you all Americans that the weapons used to kill all those people in Iraq and the cost of sending and keeping troops there is tenths of billions. The aid is a lot lot less.
You should know that for every dollar spent there will be a considerable profit...: new weapon orders, US friendly regim in the area that will have to serve you will, foothold onto the richest ground of the world.
Do you know that major tv networks are financially controlled by weapon industries?
Do you know that the patriot missiles hit 0 scuds in first Gulf war while the media where advertising their capabities?
Do you know that Greece has to spend a lot of our little money to buy your weapons because Turkey has to buy them too in order not to be politically in your dismay?
Do you know what really happend in Serbia's bombards?
Are you aware of the dead the embargo in iraq caused?
Do you find any morality to the phrase 'food for oil'?
Do you know anything about the dirty role of your country in Greece 1967-1974, Cyprus 1974, cHILE,Argentina, Venezuela, Palestine, Kurdistan...
Do you know that in those 'shit-in-a-ditch countries' (?)
live people like you?
Do you know about international agreements concerning enviromental, nuclear weapons control that US doesn't signatures?
Have you seen war refugees?
What is happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan right now?Do you know who Musaraf really is? Do you know that there is no american humanitarian aid in Afghanistan?

Listen people. There are more people that hate you than you know. There are people in USA that are using the benefits your country offers to become better people, live in a better society, live in a better world. Those people that really are the hope of the entire world are more ,than those that hate you know.

To squib: We are on the same side even if you don't think so. We have to raise our voice against power.I may be more lucky since my goverment is less powerful and less dangerous.
There is no need to police the world since that is impossible.

A fundamental difference between the Judeo-Christian West and the Islamic Middle East is all about guilt and blame.

The West has a "guilt culture" (accepting one's own guilt), while the Arab/Islamic world has a "blame culture".

The West can produce so many intellectuals such as Susan Sonntag, Noam Chomsky and Arundhati Roy who are so ready to criticize Western civilization and blame the United States for the problems in the Islamic world. The Islamic Middle East, on the other hand, accepts little responsibility for its own inadequacies, and instead embraces conspiracy theories that typically blame the West.

1. In the Middle East, one's own guilt and inadequacies are always assigned to others. Self-criticism is seldom practiced. The ability for self-correction is accordingly limited.

2. In the Middle East, the preferred role is that of the victim. Conspiracy theories are forged to rationalize this behavior.

3. Islam does not have the concept of "original sin" and therefore no historical tradition of collective guilt.

4. Islam does not promote the formation of free will and individual responsibility. In the Islamic notion of man, free will is subordinate to Allah's all-encompassing pre-ordained plan.

5. In the West, there is a tendency toward the avowal of guilt, whether rightly or wrongly. Therefore the role of culprit is readily adopted.

6. The guilt society in the West promotes self-criticism, and also the capacity for self-correction.

7. In the modern West, the religious-based notion of "original sin" has been secularised to some extent, and also expresses itself in acceptance of blame for the Islamic-Arab world.

8. In the overt or covert conflict between the two cultures, the West cannot operate with a free hand, by virture of its own self-imposed moral constraints. These self-imposed restrictions will be interpreted as a weakness by the aggressive blame society of the Middle East. They will not be respected in conflict situations, but exploited.

zulubaby, of course you're allowed to come! you won't be allowed near the kid's table tho' - we'll be plottin' and schemin' and doing the nefarious things kids our ages do :-)

I'm thinking it should be on the beach or a park - maybe a picnic/BBQ or at least a nice outdoor cafe for lunch or dessert. How was the last meet?

btw: I thought I stayed up late...

#236

Maybe you're slow on the uptake?

It puts the lie to the notion that Europe is propped up by the US. More capital travels the other direction. Simple enough?

If you want more:

World Trade 2001 - Billions USD
EU-15 imports - 914 US imports - 1180.5
EU-15 exports - 872.5 US exports - 730.9

No evidence of any reliance on US support there.

OECD figures for 2001 show that the EU contributes 26,004 million USD in overseas development aid, while the US contributed 10,884.

I'm just pointing out that if you are feeling bad about where your taxes are going, try looking to the military industry before some third world country.

I don't mean to feed him, but just one little nibble:

Are you familiar with video of donald ramsfeld shaking hands with Sadham in late 80's?

You mean this one?:

[Link: www.chez.com...]

Oops, that was Chirac.

Grow up, read a book, and learn a little before you shove that big fat Greek foot even further in your big fat Greek mouth you big fat sanctimonious fool. Your talking points are played out.

197 selpaw
Know we were OT, but thanks for the comments. I agree. And when it happens, we're all gonna have more to disagree with our friends about (when they all tell us Israel is the same thing as Iraq).

SecHumanist (#241)

I'm not coming unless I'm allowed to sit at the kiddies table. I'm not that old you know! LOL!

I was sleeping, but I almost always wake up in the middle of the night. I have insomnia so... I'll go back to bed in a little while.

The last get-together was fabulous but we went to see the 'This is New York' exhibit so it was kind of intense too. For me anyway. The company was great though, and it was lovely to meet some of the LGFers in the real.

Are you familiar with video of donald ramsfeld shaking hands with Sadham in late 80's?

You are probably not!

I lost one of my best friends over clinton. I hated him from the first time I saw his face and heard his voice, she thought he was wonderful, brilliant and handsome. I thought he was too stupid to live, a liar and a cheat. Most of my friends and I are in agreement about the war. I avoid talking to the friends and family who are anti-war, and it's been pretty obvious that the ones who are anti-war are the ones who are anti-Bush. I have lost all respect for them. The hardest part for me is being Pagan. I joined a Pagan study group about 6 months ago and there is a certain amount of tightness in the group because of our shared beliefs. However, most of them are anti-war. My first Wicca instructors taught that you were to do no harm, but if somebody poses a danger you are obligated to stop them and to stop them in such a way that they never make the mistake of even thinking about hurting anybody again. Now I have found that many Wiccans have become pacifists with the whole peace, love and bomb them with butter mentality. So... I just keep my mouth shut about the war.

komis , are you familiar with video of Chirac shaking hands with Sadham in late 80's?

You are probably not!

Are you familiar with video of donald ramsfeld shaking hands with Sadham in late 80's?

Does this one have Tourette's Syndrome?

i try not to talk about it, but yes i have lost so called friends.

#249 zulubaby
Yeah.. I'm feeling rather guilty for encouraging his Tourette's, I just couldn't help myself.

SecHumanist (#251)

Yeah, I understand. Hopefully he'll seek help. He obviously thought he was Teaching Us All Something so fascinating that he felt compelled to repeat it. Wow. I almost feel like I should clap and throw change.

I'm going back to bed. G'night :-)

Actually Komis nearly eveyshithead in the world has brought it up. It's not at all unkown over here in the US, has been mentioned repeatedly on CNN in fact and you get absolutely no points at all for originality for bringing it up...again.

Now. Do you understand the context of that handshake? Does context even matter to someone like you? I mean almost everything you said was typical bumpersticker sloganeering dsiguised badly as deep thought and the ususal idiots presupposition that the US doesn't allow multiple news sources and that it's all a giant oil/arms coroporation leading a bunch of sheep around by the nose. This is idiot talk and typical of Chomskyites and slow thinking Euro-pinks who can't tackle the real issue so they mix up these starw man macguffins to stage their elborate pageants of psuedo criticism.

Here's the clue. Iran. Iran(under Kohmeini) seized the American embassy held hostages for over a year and swore to be the enemy of the US for it's support of Shah Pahlavi. They also said that they intended to wipe out Israel and made a lot of motions that theyw ere the new Isalmic power in the world and that pan Arbism was over...the Persians were now the big boys of the middle east.

Iraq thought that Iran was unstable and so invaded basivly to grab a disputed penninsula/river delta. Iran stopped his invasion and invaded him using suicide bombers and suicide troops to get a lot of it done. Iran ran kids over a minefield pretty much to terrify the Baath party leadership and it worked. The US basicly gave Iraq some money to buy weapons(They were a soviet client and didn't want US arms) for resupply and a lot of intelligence that helped them to repulse Iran's counterinvasion. Eventually both nations were exausted and quit.

Iraq was a US ally against Iran and used a counter against their expansion. It was not particularly la particularly loved realtionship anymore than Pakistan was loved when we used them as a counter against soviet friendly India. Our association with Iraq made Israel very nervous as did France building Iraq a breeder reactor(Osirik). Israel blew it up which made things a little cold between them and the US and the world.

Eventually Iraq turned towards a richer and weaker foe and after we told Sadam to leave and drove his troops out of Kuwait he decided to be our "enemy" as much as he was able. He signed a cease fire which he broke nearly every term of and it was in fact the UN who put those sanctions on him. Provisions were made for food and medical aid. Whether sadam stole it or the UN never delivered it is a matter of some debate. Interestingly Sadam killed about as many of his people as the sanctions were supposed to have. He even culled his own Baath party.

Most of the rest of your "news" about US involvement is just a typical readers digest list of criticism from Carter and Clinton era ex cabinet memebers

The US has several political parties BTW. They just aren't very popular. There is the Independent party, the Communist party, The Worker's World Party, the Green Party, the Libertarian party, the Reform party(unless they quit), several Neo-Nazi parties and even people who run with no political affiliation. Thinking we only have two partie is just more of your ignorance.

While someone in the US who doesn't care about news and politics is going to tend to be ignrant on several matters of news and geography and history the same can be said of Europe which has it's own white trash classes and happy upper middle idiots. The press isn't really all that restricted(basicly on on matters of privacy and military secrets) and none of our news outlets are state owned except for PBS which nobody watches. Most of our TV news sources are middle left slanted and really sound a lot like the BBC.

Saying we don't have "all the information" is really your way of saying that you think you are smarter than everyone who disagrees with you. It ain't all that true kiddo. We can actually get YOUR news if we wanted it.

I haven't lost any friends, but most of my work colleagues are anti-war, as is my mother. I'm a scientist, and my work colleagues are scientists. University-graduates (some with PhDs, some are PhD students), they don't trust Bush, they don't trust John Howard, they don't trust the foreign policy of America, and they worry about civilian casualties. (Sheesh, the issue is Iraq, not Bush!)

I get by largely by being as well read-up as the others are on foreign events.

Oops. I fed a troll.

And I can't type either. (Hangs head in shame)

Yes, I lost a friend during this war. CPT Chris Siefert of the 101st Airborne Division was (allegedly) killed by an American soldier who threw a hand grenade into his tent. He and I had served together at a previous assignment in Germany. He is survived by his young wife and daughter of only a few months. Chris would have proudly given his life for our country -- it's a shame he (apparently) died by such a cowardly attack by a fellow American. (I understand and support "innocent until proven guilty," but I hope the investigation and justice is executed swiftly.)

no, but like #11:

I am developing a much more pessimistic opinion of the general populace after this great war debate.

and that's understating it.

reasonable opposition is fine with me, sort of, I understand people being unconvinced, afraid or just unhappy about the war. but the people who start the illegal-illegitimate-injust-imperialist mantra, the "bush is stupid, it's for oil", the ones who take to the streets and are really full of hatred as well as biad - well I don't personally associate with that kind of nutters since... school, and even then they weren't close friends. but there's far too many around for my liking.

it's very interesting to read all the experiences on this, very good question.

I thought this kind of division wasn't so strong in the US... that's what shocks me really. that there can be anti-american nutters in america. I can take it here in europe where those people are just envious and resentful and brainwashed by the left, even when they're at the opposition, they still have left a trail of ideology behind that will be hard to clean up. I don't justify them or understand how they can be so much more attached to ideology than willing to make an effort to consider reality for their own interests, but I can see how that came about. but in the USA? what went so wrong ? I know there aren't as many of the bush-hating mantra people over there, but they're always one too many. the majority can be swayed by events, but those hard fringes, they're scary even if they're a minority.

I live north of Atlanta, and I can honestly say that all my friends feel the same way that I do (pro-war). I think the South in general (out in the burbs anyway) tends to be more pro-American and pro-Bush.

It's certainly causing some strain with some of my more left leaning friends.

Friends, no at least not to my knowledge, family members yes… but it started around 9-11. When I said I think this is a cultural religious war… Islam recognizes that it is, we just refuse to admit it.

Greek guy: Pick up a copy of Eleni by Nicholas Gage and then get back to me about American brutality. We've got nothing on you. Assassinations? Read about Eleni's assassination.

#257

reasonable opposition is fine with me, sort of

says it all really.

#256 Scott
My brother was in the 101st at Ft. Campbell (now full-time Kentucky National Guard) and was in Ft. Riley, Ft. Hood, Germany, Korea, and more - too many now to remember. Chris Siefert is a Hero in my book. He could have been my brother. Thanks for visiting here and telling us of your loss. Thanks for all you do for all of us.

I've almost lost my band because of the war. I play in a band with a couple of Euroweenies whose smug, reflexive opposition to any American military action is really getting on my nerves. I've tried to educate them a bit but I haven't got very far. Actually, it all started with their opposition to the war in Afghanistan. Since then, I've borne a grudge which I seldom address for fear of being overwhelmed by their idiotarianism and my own anger.

#176 Evil Genius

Another Bostonian here. Haven't had too much trouble in our neighborhood (Hyde Park), but OTOH we don't interact with the neighbors all that much.

#240:

The West has a "guilt culture" (accepting one's own guilt), while the Arab/Islamic world has a "blame culture".

very nicely put! as the rest of what you wrote.

man, I'm seeing far more intelligent commentary here than on the news.

I'd just add that Europe is where the guilt/blame cultures mingle, and not just for the presence of so many Muslim immigrants who obstinately refuse to respect the laws of the countries they immigrate into or the principles the west is founded on. But because Europe was infected much more than the US by the cancer of communism, and antisemitism, and then was liberated and again saved on many occasions by the US, it's created the resentment, that makes a perfect match to that blame culture. that's why half of europe is joining the chorus of US-bashers.

to the greek guy komis:

the Greeks! for fuck's sake, what's wrong with you people? you hate the Muslims, you hate the Albanians, you hate the Turks, and now you hate Americans too? so what do you want, just stand on your own past greatness? are French delusions that infectious eh? what have Americans done to you, other than bring you billions in tourism and build (your Greek-Americans who went to live in the US) those hotels and houses and tourist resorts that are your main resource? is that the "brutally interfering" you refer to?

sorry, don't wanna lump in everyone in Greece with said ungrateful bastards, I know, I know, there's far too many idiots in my own country. but I really can't believe that so many of you of all people would join the Saddam supporters. you should know better. ah well, everyone should know better.

you'll stand corrected soon, and I want to see the shame of all those who'll realise how wrong they were. how can people continue hanging on to slogans in the face of reality. anti-war dressed as "solidarity" to iraqis is solidarity to the regime, the real help to the people of iraq is by delivering them from the regime, the real solidarity is those soldiers working for your own interest too, but one could flood these people with pictures of grateful iraqis grabbing food parcels and they'd ignore it, forget the historical associations and just keep lashing out at the US because it's oh so cool. wake up!

#256

I am sorry for your loss. If you are in contact with CPT Siefert's family, please convey all of our thanks.

And Komis, my wife and I have travelled the world and have never been more disappointed with a city than we were with Athens. Your forefathers have a lot to be proud of. The last 2000 years or so, on the other hand, could only be described as a disaster.

Midas

This is just what I needed to console myself over the fact that I have lost all of my old friends. All of them. My husband is the only person from college days who knows his hat from a hole in the ground. And he's in the military!

The strange thing is that now, living at Fort Knox, there are plenty of people who support the war, but they are the same people who can't wait to do a tour in Germany. We are moving there in May and absolutely dreading it. I can't stand the idea of living in Europe now (not that I enjoyed it when I lived in France and Sweden during college, ugh). But other couples can't wait to move to "Europe, you know, where everythings so full of culture." Even military couples can't wait to spend their dollars on that crappy continent. My husband and I have no desire to go anywhere besides Spain, UK, Bulgaria, etc. We would be overjoyed if the troops moved to Poland in the next three years.

Does anyone else find this odd, that the same people who unquestioningly support the war would be eager to move to a country where we're deeply unwelcomed? On base here, I have no trouble talking about the war, but I hesitate to mention to anybody that we'd rather head to Fort Carson than Germany.

God, I hate Europe.

#256 Scott

I'm terribly sorry to hear of your loss. Any loss of friends or anxiety during these tense times does nothing to compare with that. My condolences.

"Question for the crew: are any of you losing friends over the Iraq War?"

No, most of my friends are military service veterans and/or bikers. Most of us have been chomping at the bit for weeks. And as far as future "friends" go, I try not to associate myself with the stupid, anyone that thinks
"negotiation" wit hthese people will work falls into that catagory.

Interesting question. I've lost a couple of people who were not really friends to begin with and who, basically, started the breach by ranting about Bush and refusing to listen to any dissenting viewpoint. My friends who are pacifist for religious reasons politely disagree with me but respect my viewpoints, and they're as horrified by the grotesque antics of the "peace" protestors as I am.

That much said, the discovery that my boyfriend and I share identical political viewpoints has only strengthened our relationship, and I found new friends when I reached out on the web looking for others of likeminded religious and political persuasions. Overall, I'd say I've come out ahead. =)

I have not lost any friends. Some have reservations about the politics of it all because they are supporters of the UN, and I am not. There is the "world policeman" aspects often brought up, but intelligent discussions can, and have been, had.

The only hammering I have taken are from a man I know in (where else?) San Francisco who, through postings on LiveJournal, spouts all the Bush-as-selected, they're-all-nazis rhetoric in reply to my posts there. Knowing this man as I do, I expect exactly this sort of behavior and sentiment from him. He is a San Franciscan who is from Massachusetts who, were it not for money he is making on income property would be on the street starving because he can't hold a job for more than 3 or 4 months at a time.

There are two threads running through this:

-Support / Non-support for the war
-How that translates into political alignments

I live in a Midwestern state that is pretty conservative but has traditionally voted Democratic. Most of my friends are apolitical and probably support the troops and the war because that's just the thing that you do. Our state has seen an unprecedented tidal shift towards the Republicans in the 2000 and 2002 elections. Almost every friend / family member I have who, while being apolitical, do vote and have indicated a previous Democratic voting record are now almost all solidly Republican. This war is only strengthening that alignment where I live.

My wife is the most apolitical person I've ever known, not really knowing the difference between a Democrat and a Republican before the war. She says she now knows the difference and will vote accordingly. And it won't be for any Democratic candidates.

Here in Mpls-St.Paul, I am lucky since my closest friends are conservative Christians. The most anit-war comment I've heard from them was from my pastor(!) who said, "I'm not sure why we have to go to war now, but I'm not going to second guess the President." My outer rung of friends are a different matter though. I went to a movie discussion group the other night, and most of them seemed to be post-watergate libs. You know, the government is basically evil. After listening to them vamp for awhile I noted that I was an "evil Republican." I also noted that Clinton had predicted this mess if we didn't fix it then. Invoking BJ seemed to defuse them mostly. In Minny there seems to be a more civil level of discourse than elsewhere. BTW, I see there are at least a few Twin Citians as LGF readers, how about a shout out?

what's funny - or sad, depending upon my mood - is to hear my co-workers spout their anti-Bush spiels (which is their right) in a way that makes me think they actually believe the conspiracy theories. While I am a "man of the right," I've never bought into the anti-Clinton theories. But these acquaintances of mine who are otherwise fairly normal thinkers lose any ability to think rationally when Bush is brought up. One said to me that "Bush would stop people like me from speaking out." This is based upon -- what? I don't know. Something Bush said? Ashcroft is the Great Devil to these people. These people have absolutely no problem with the people in Iraq or Afghanistan being gang-raped, because we must give the U.N. more time. This comes from people that scream at the barrista if they have to wait 15 seconds for their lattes. Somehow their impatience is worthy of immediate action, but the subjugation of civilizations under the jackboot of the Taliban or the Ba'athists is O.K. by them. Those brown people just don't deserve action, or something.

Sigh.

The only person in my rather large family that is irrational about this is, unfortunately, my mother, but she's housebound and doesn't know that there are other channels on the TV besides Oprah.

My father-in-law, a veteran of WWII, someone who is mildly anti-Bush, had his new car keyed this weekend because he has a veterans' sticker on the car. He is surprised that he would be singled out - he's a good liberal. But you know what they say - a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged...

All my friends build JDAMs and MOABs so no issue here.

I might lose a few, however, if they have butter fingers during an assembly tasking...

IYAAYAS

and the two boys are bigger right-wingers than I am. (sob) They make me so dambed proud.

Well, should qualify that a little. Corby's previous foster placement was with Pacifists from Eugene, OR. He thinks Baghdad should have been nuked on the first day, but he also says it's all about the oil, and its pretty obvious he's parroting what other adults around him have said. I'm sure once I get those critical thinking skills going he'll be fine.

were it not for money he is making on income property would be on the street starving because he can't hold a job for more than 3 or 4 months at a time.

A friend of mine has an uncle like that. Lives in the Bay Area, has a law degree but won't work, sponges off his wife, no kids, simultaneously claims that Bush is retarded and that Bush masterminded a conspiracy with Texas Power Companies to create the California power crisis and discredit Gray Doofus. Obviously, logic is not going to prevail here.

It's hard to take adults with no job seriously.