Welcome to 1984.

#1

"Is it 1984, I'm not sure, but as best I can make it out, it must be................"

Where, then, had it come from? Paranoia suggested the Israeli secret service, which monitors such events. This picture also looked, to some expert eyes, doctored.

Oh my G-d! Is this asshole for real!? I can't believe what I just read. The blatant Jew hating is getting out-of-control. Fucking bastard.

Oh yes, it is so mysterious that an idiot activist who blocks bulldozers from harming terrorists, would also burn an American flag. Gosh, they never do that.

I suspect the editors at the Guardian as well as Sutherland know that these pictures are legit; they know and don't care. These people are antisemites...their aim is to make Jews...all Jews, all evil. They hate Jews and no lie is too large or too small to spread about those they hate. Their mindset is no different than any true believing Nazi.

Just goes to show that some people will never be convinced of the truth when it interferes with their political beliefs.

Perhaps he should be reminded that she and her lice infected rat pack conducted a mock funeral for Bush that with the palinazis.

I mentioned it in the other thread, but I'll say it again. J Lichty ought to be proud. Winning an Al-Guardian like he did as high praise as winning a Pulitzer.

Charles,

Are you brought this to the attention of Prof. Reynolds yet? Taranto at Best of the Web? Andrew Sullivan?

This boggles the mind. I don't think you'd see a worse anti-semitic slur at Arab News or Indymedia.

Oops. Sorry, didn't catch that while going through the story the first time, on another thread. Good thing you caught it quickly, Charles. Now, people who come this way following this smear will see the Guardian for the lying rag it is.

IF anyone knows the email of Stefan Sharkansky, we should probaly give him the heads-up, so he'll be able to show the truth to all those Guardian readers who want to take a peek at him. Already left him a message in the responses to his last post, but an email might reach him faster.

Wow! The Guardian singled out me and my commenters (like LGF stalwart J. Lichty!) as having a "mephitic" flow that is worse than Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

I'm proud to have made it into the big leagues!

murderous blade

Well, I'm no construction guy, nor a Brit, but do they call the big scoops/shovels on the front of 'dozers "blades?" And "murderous", well, guess this reporter knows she was deliberately and wrongly killed. And how do flames "tear up" a flag? And how are photos of her in the demonstations "contrary"? No matter what happened with the bulldozer that "shook the ground beneath her feet", the demonstation photos don't "contradict" it.

No, they just run "contrary" to the "journalists" prejudices about Corrie and, well, you-know-who.

I hate al-Guardian. This article is beyond disgusting. Why do I keep reading it? Help me! Aaargh! It's put me in a bad mood. Jew-hating filth.

No email that I can find to the author or to Al-Guardian on their website, either. Darn.

I'm so very glad for the many blogs which are available to counter such propaganda.

Some journalists, in many widely-respected papers, have been free to spread their distortions of the truth to help advance whatever ideological cause they support.

It's been due to blogs, like this one, that distortions and lies present in many stories have been exposed. The faithful adherents of these journalists' ideologies don't like it one bit and are complaining of being silenced. (They have a strange definition of silenced.)

It must be a shock to the media elite (and their faithful believers) to realize their views are being challenged and their lies exposed. They have become accustomed to only dealing with nasty letters to their editors, that were probably ignored.

It's a whole different world for them to have blogs, with large numbers of readers, expose them and laugh at them.

Keep on exposing lies where you find them.

Regards,
Chris J. from Boston

The Sun has a history of trashing the fifth column press in its own country. The most outstanding example was their sledge-hammer fisking of the Mirror, Al Guardian, and others for their outrageous lies about Guantanamo.
I have e-mailed this story, with pertinent details, to The Sun, got a story?.

And the Joseph Goebbels award goes to.......

Thank you, Charles, for telling the truth.

soccermom (#15)

Not to worry, ploome will find an e-mail address for you. She's bound to show up soon :-)

What do they consider themselves to be the "Guardian" of? The legacy of Joseph Goebbels? Or is it Stalin's?

It is a rather self-serving name for a newspaper. The most appropriately named British rag is of course "The Mirror," the paper that always gets things backwards.

They should merge and kill fewer trees.

atomic conspiracy: The Sun?! The tabloid with the nekkid ladies is the best defender of fair and honest reporting in the UK!?

Sounds about right.

For the internet record:

Rachel Corrie was a stupid, suicidal terrorist-supporting [expletive deleted] who threw herself in front of a bulldozer, but not before spending hours taking photographs to be used out of context by her terrorist-sponsoring, death-exploiting chums after her death. The [expletive deleted] was defending an arms smuggling tunnel - because, you see, these arms were only going to kill Jews. She was doing this with a group, ISM, that was protecting a leading member of Islamic Jihad by hiding him in their office, a group that brought food and supplies to the terrorists that laid siege to the Church of the Nativity (terrorist that average Palestinians had feared for years), a group that tried to smuggle terrorists out of Arafat's Ramallah compound - a group that believes the "occupation" started in 1948.

This [expletive deleted] died defending murderers, and this sleazy, worthless, British piece of [expletive deleted] makes comparisons to Tiananmen Square?! For the love of .... one day, I hope Israel shows them what it would look like if they were to act like the Chinese. One day, I hope that Israel holds up all the bullshit printed about them and follows the blueprints these "journalists" have dreamt up. I hope one day Israel just shrugs its shoulders and decides that if hyperbolic slander will be the norm in reporting on Israel, they might as well make reality reflect the reporting.

Damnit, I'm pissed. All I can say is there's a smarmy British [expletive deleted] who's lucky I'm not in England with a gun right now, actually, including the editors, I guess there are quite a few.

Disclaimer: of course I don't hope Israel ever acts the way these disgusting little turds claim they do, I do however hope they suffer the pain and torment they recklessly dish out, condone, and support.

#14 - Zulubaby - You read for the same reason that I do - to understand what is behind the minds of the enemy - to never again permit a people to go quietly into the night, into captivity, into oblivion.

Millions in Europe as a result of Germany, and millions more in the Soviet Union and other countries have paid a price for not believing that man was that cruel, that murderous in this "modern" age.

We should all watch closely what is said by those who support an ideology that killed over 100 million people of all faiths and beliefs in the 20th century...or supports one that wants to return the world to the time of it's "glory", the 12th century.

#20, Thanks zulubaby. Glad you're back.

Athos (#14)

I can't take it anymore. The anti-Semitism is so intense right now. It really scares me.

If Al-Jazeera could be subjected to a DOS attack, why not the Guardian? Anyone here know how to go about it?

#22 Model 4
That's them. Al Guardian has nothing like the page 3 girls.

#13 Model4

To answer your question, it is called a "blade".

Zulubabyyyyyyyyyy, Soccer Mommyyyyyy

you called.?

[Link: media.guardian.co.uk...]

on the left side of the window, bottom of "Regulars" list:

Contact:
[Link: media.guardian.co.uk...]

If you want to get in touch with members of our reporting team, or are interested in particular areas of the media, the contact details are:
Janine Gibson, executive editor
janine.gibson@guardian.co.uk

Lisa O'Carroll, site editor
lisa.o'carroll@guardian.co.uk

Claire Cozens, advertising & marketing editor
claire.cozens@guardian.co.uk

Ciar Byrne, press & publishing correspondent
ciar.byrne@guardian.co.uk

Julia Day, marketing correspondent
julia.day@guardian.co.uk

Jason Deans, broadcasting editor
jason.deans@guardian.co.uk

Owen Gibson, new media editor
owen.gibson@guardian.co.uk

Chris Tryhorn, city correspondent
chris.tryhorn@guardian.co.uk

If you have a general query for one of our departments, the departmental emails are:
editor@mediaguardian.co.uk

feedback@mediaguardian.co.uk

briefing@mediaguardian.co.uk

monkey@mediaguardian.co.uk

press.release@mediaguardian.co.uk

userhelp@guardian.co.uk

Zulubaby - I know. It's hard, it's scary, it's everywhere - but there are as many willing to stand with you, to help, as there are against you - even if it doesn't seem that way.

Never again.

[Link: haganah.org.il...]

Has anyone seen this site? Haganah B'Internet -- "an online self-defence force"

Zulubaby...

the antisemitism doesnt scare me...

im sort of mesmerized by it..

I see it going so over the top its waking people up to the insanity.

The more feverish the accusations, the more these wackos are exposed.

But I DO think Jews in Europe and France should carry arms, and RIOT to get their governements to protect them.

Then again not only Jews are at risk...look at Pym Fortyun.

or else make aliya..

Wouldnt it be fun of 10,000 FRENCH Jews asked America for political asylum, because they are fearful for their lives.? Just to make the statement.?

The stars in the photo look more like Stars of David than the stars on the real US flag. It seems to be a quasi-flag meant to represent US support for Israel, not an actual American flag.

monkey@mediaguardian.co.uk

This must be the address of their fact checker.

Also, there is nothing anti-Semitic in the article. Criticism of Israel - even slander of Israel, if that is the case - is anti-Israeli, but that is not the same as anti-Semitic.

36 Tyrone

of course, how could we confuse the two...?

(/sarcasm)

#32 Moe Katz

Yeah, that's aaron's site, he posts here occasionally. Great site. Charles links to his site occasionally too (for example)

#36,

You're right. There's no relationship whatsoever between criticism of "the Jewish state", as it is known, and antisemitism. None. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Never. Impossible, such a thing. Why it would be absurd to think so.

#36,

Why does your blog print this disclaimer Warning: Readers of the Jewish faith may find this entry offensive. for this entry?

[Link: www.tyronenicholas.com...]

Does it ever occur to you that Jews know antisemitism when they see it? Who is more attuned to what is and is not antisemitism than the Jewish people? Don't we grant other minorities the right to recognize bigotry against their own?

I bet it unconsciously bothers a progressive like you that you've also fallen prey to one of the oldest and most insidious bigotries rooted in medieval superstition, antisemitism.

Tyrone,

Oh, I guess he was just upset about Israel's policies - no inexplicable hypocrisy in the excessive attention given to Israel and the declaration of it being murder and the implication that Israel and the blog world are "demonizing a martyr" through lies and deceit, none whatsoever.

Maybe the hopeful or the naïve don't see the correlation between the two, or the disturbing trend that has allowed for anti-Semitism expressed as "criticisms of Israel" to become commonplace - but that doesn't change the nature of the trend - a trend that has lead to epic attacks against Jews around the world, synagogue burnings, stabbings, etc.

The gross hyperbole, both in intent and effect, are anti-Semitism in it's purest form (or raging, nearly impossible levels of stupidity, your choice), and it's disgusting.

What you have to understand about the Guardian, BBC etc is that they are utterly perplexed. They are so out of touch it is not true, and as such they are going for the same old targets and getting reckless.

Support has hardened and continues to do so. There is no fervour for war in the UK simply a feeling that there's a job to do. The chattering classes have been marginalized. Ignore them, they are preaching to no one but the converted.

Here is a MEMRI translation of an interview given by a Lebanese daily newspaper with the despot who rules both Syria and Lebanon -

'Israel Will Not Be a Legitimate State Even If Peace Is Accomplished'

This is the Arab state of mind today.

40 James

do you suppose you and I are the only two people to have read his blog.?

I didnt see one comment....LOL

#40 James

Thanks James, I hadn't realized he was a bigot before my post. So Tyrone, please disregard my post above, I don't normally converse with your type of filth.

Let us know when you pick up a book and read about what is actually going on rather than regurgitating your nonsensical Chomskyan "atrocities."

#40:

The next two sentences of the blog entry explain why the disclaimer is there. Not because the post is anti-Semitic, but because the pro-Israeli camp interprets nearly any criticism of Israel as being anti-Semitic.

You say that Jews are the best judges of what does or does not constitute anti-Semitism. So does merely being Jewish give someone the right to label any criticism of Israel "anti-Semitic"? What happens to Jews who are critical of Israel? Are they anti-Semitic too?

By your logic, blacks would be the best qualified to determine what is racist against blacks. So anything Al Sharpton says is racist must be racist, right?

re: #36

I truly and honestly thought comment 36 was a joke
that they forgot to put "/set sarcasm OFF".

Are you saying it wasn't?

I shouldn't feed it.. but selective and persistent condemnation of one country by people, such as yourself, who have no strategic interests in the resolution of the conflict must be acting from some other motivation.

If not anti-Jewish motivation, what explains the hypocrisy and the selective targetting of Israel for crimes that pale in comparison to hundreds of other countries around the world, and even kilometers away (Syria for example)? What explains the double standard that forces Israel to act differently than the British, the French, the Spanish, the Russians, the Turks, or than us Americans in response to threats far greater than any of those other countries face?

'When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews," Martin Luther King once said. "In short, it is antisemitism."

[Link: www.forward.com...]

#44 ploome

Yes, I think you two are the only ones. It's your fault he's polluting this site :-)

Tyrone.....check this out...

[Link: sf.indymedia.org...]

........do you see any BLOOD, associated with a crushing wound..?

....a 10 tonne tank

"and the bulldozer didn't stop at all. It had completely run over her and then it reversed and ran back over her"

WHERE IS THE BLOOD..??????

#46 Tyrone

Not to fan the flames, but I cannot resist...

"So anything Al Sharpton says is racist..."

No need to extend the statement past that.

#50 ploome

WHERE IS THE BLOOD..??????

Ah... You obviously never heard of Mutant Bulldozer Vampires...

caton...LOL

these ernest wackos..

Tyrone honey.....you ever met a JOOOOOOO..?

earnest..eArnest............ughh

I found it! John Sutherland has already won a Goebbels!

caton...forgot for a moment, its a joooysih bulldozer

oops....an Izz-rah-ail-eeee bulldozer

#48 (cont.)

An example would be to criticize Israel for refugee camps that exist in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan that have been artificially maintained for over half a century to use their suffering as political leverage against Israel. The hypocrisy of criticizing Israel for a situation created and maintained by her surrounding neighbors, of criticizing Israel while ignoring the 800,000 refugees she took in after they were expelled from Arab lands, of ignoring the flagrant human rights abuses in these countries because to ease their situation would decrease the political pressure on Israel - this stance is nothing but thinly veiled Jew hatred. It sure as hell isn't compassion for Palestinian Arabs (nor was that non-existent compassion ever shown when Jordan was slaughtering them or Kuwait was expelling them), and it sure as hell isn't a moral choice, but you seem to have no problem encouraging their suffering.

In short Tyrone, as much as you may want to just dismiss any criticisms of your hypocritical and rather disgusting stance... it is brought about by what can only be described as animus towards Jews, unless there is some other motivation that makes you actively hate Israel for no apparent reason.

Look everyone has this all wrong. It really was not Corrie in that picture. I have the orginal picture on my site to prove it. I don't know who that person is but is is definatly not Corrie.

Corrie Oringal Photo

#43,
To pick a nit, it is actually the same dictator. The Lebanese is a hand puppet of the Syrian.

59 Egfrow

hehehehe

#34

The stars in the photo look more like Stars of David than the stars on the real US flag.

It looks like the first picture has five pointed stars on the flag while the second has six pointed stars. So Ms. Corrie did this ritual at least twice..

Where, then, had it come from? Paranoia suggested the Israeli secret service, which monitors such events. This picture also looked, to some expert eyes, doctored.

The "Israeli secret service" (Mossad? Shin Bet?) probably has nothing better to do than photoshop pictures of this skank. Thanks God we have al-Guardian to see through the evil Zionist schemes..

very pathetic.

I'm really surprised Ms. Corrie is still making headlines. I guess it gives all the anti-Semites and Islamofascist sympathizers a chance to make us out as monsters with no regard for human life. Sort of like the Palestinians who go out to kill as many Jewish civilians at night and spend the day whining about their own civilian casualties.

SecHumanist (#23) wrote:

This [expletive deleted] died defending murderers, and this sleazy, worthless, British piece of [expletive deleted] makes comparisons to Tiananmen Square?!

Just for the internet record, the Seattle Times is guilty of the same offense, may they be covered in shame forever.

Hard as it is to understand why someone wouldn't move from the blade of a bulldozer, history tells us that the world creates people like Rachel Corrie.
Kent State. Tiananmen Square. They are places, sure, but more, they are points of history because of the people who stood before bullets and tanks for the causes they believed in — or defied.

--In Death, a Martyr is Born, Nicole Brodeur, The Seattle Times, March 18, 2003

That reminds me, I have neglected to sign The Petition in a few

#15

Feel free to write to the author at: j.sutherland@ucl.ac.uk

Has anyone noticed the outrageous coverage from PRAVDA? Some of the most extreme proaganda I have ever read, courtesy of their resident fruitcake Timothy BANCROFT-HINCHEY ...Anyone here familiar with this nitwit??

Damn! Corrie's Petition has been censored and shut off!

#62 nik

I'm really surprised Ms. Corrie is still making headlines.

I'm really surprised there aren't more dead 'peace activists'.

#64 spidly
Good point, an investigation of ISM will likely lead to them being declared a terrorist-supporting entity in the U.S.

#63 Sarah
Should I sue? I have a patent pending on that strategy - it's called the "The History Stealing Palestinian" debate strategy.

You say that selective condemnation of Israel while ignoring everyone else is proof of anti-Semitism. Even that is strange logic; would a persistent critic of say, China be automatically labelled as prejudiced against Chinese?

It has usually been rightists who have voiced frustration with "political correctness" for using accusations of racism to silence alternative views. Now, the pro-Israeli side is establishing a political correctness of its own.

The Israeli-Palestinian issue receives attention out of proportion to its importance among both pro- and anti-Israeli viewpoints. A car bombing in Tel Aviv will receive loads more coverage than one in Gujarat or Bogota. This is simply because of the significance of the region in three major faiths.

If criticism of Israel were truly synonymous with anti-Semitism, then we would expect critics of Israel to also be synonymous with Holocaust deniers, attacks on synagogues, etc. This is not the case.

In any case, I have not actually criticized Israel in this thread; I merely stated that doing so is not ipso facto anti-Semitic. You referred to my blog entry criticizing Israel; but you will find several other countries criticized on that blog.

Given that this thread is about a Guardian article discussing Israel, is it all that surprising that views about Israel will come up in this discussion more so then other topics?

Tell Israeli soldiers that you support their actions -- send them a message with some pizza or burgers out to the front lines: Pizza & Burgers for Israeli soldiers

"Questions were asked as to whether the images had been "manipulated"."

If the pics are 'official'
[Link: sf.indymedia.org...]
I would have to say that they were not "manipulated" but are of unrelated events.

As in previous threads on this topic - the dozers "before" and "after" her being run over are not the same.

I don't think that counts as being "manipulated". Other than something red in front of the dozers and a couple of dozers, there is no relationship between the two pics.

BTW, what happened to the guy with the white shirt in the first dozer pic?

#48

When people criticize Zionism, they certainly do NOT mean Jews. Among my entire extended [Jewish] family, I know of not ONE who believes a Jewish state identity is good in principle or diplomatically sustainable, any more than a government based on Islam or Christianity would be. This doesn't make us self-loathing ... Those characteristics of Israel I find most appealing [and there are a great many] are those that are most American (and perforce secular), not those that are most Jewish.

Now how long before someone calls me a troll, or an anti-semite???

Even the Pali-things, especially in the 2nd pic, are looking at her like "What the fuck...?"

I merely stated that doing so is not ipso facto anti-Semitic

And who was the first person to make that blanket statement in the first place? Hmm.. wait a minute.. it was you! Nobody is claiming that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic... well, nobody other than you putting the words in our mouths. Bigots like Hussein Ibish use this strategy too - to use the blanket "Anti-Israel != Anti-Semitism" statement as the first sentence before any other criticism - thereby automatically associating any rebuttal as illegitimate and borne of "anti-Semitism over-sensitivity." Do you honestly not see how disingenuous that is?

That still doesn't explain how criticizing the victim of violence is a rational, and purely objective analysis of the events - that doesn't explain how you don't criticize not only the Arab world's refusal to recognize Israel, but it continued insistence on its utter decimation. That you can so easily condone genocide against one group of people and all the while accept superficial lies coming from totalitarian regimes that don't even hide their Jew hatred (which you can't deny) always leads me back to two conclusions - you either agree with the motives of those Jew-hating countries or you don't have any of the facts, in which case you shouldn't be so vocal in your ignorance.

#75

Nobody is claiming that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic... well, nobody other than you putting the words in our mouths

check #48 -- this was exactly the claim

Excellent Hanson piece on American support for Israel.

#73 Alex

Given the history of the world, both modern and ancient, feel free to give us an alternative that wouldn't have an unfairly and historically demonized minority at the mercy of a world that has time and again shown its eagerness to eradicate them.

Until then, I'll agree with your little fantasy scenario in principle - I dislike the notion of nation states, I hate the concept of politicized religions - but guess what, when the alternative is a concentration camp - those nation states don't look all too bad.

#76 Alex

Should have been clearer on the quote taken from the link - follow the link for the rest of the article.

And for the record, I'm not MLK.

Jeff S. (74) noticed what I noticed.

Look closely at the faces of the people surrounding Corrie in the photographs. I see bewilderment, contempt, even some embarrassment and shame. I see no respect or even rejoicing.

Whatever their feelings on the USA might be, I guess they too feel that "Treachery is the basest crime of all" (Aesop).

#36

Also, there is nothing anti-Semitic in the article. Criticism of Israel - even slander of Israel, if that is the case - is anti-Israeli, but that is not the same as anti-Semitic.

I've heard this little explanation before Tyrone. People like you used to say they "don't hate black people, just the n*ggers." You are just as transparent.

Alex

So now we know that you AND your entire extended family are a bunch of self-loathing Jews who don't understand the raison d'etre of the Jewish state, nor take into account the FACT that in it's absence, that piece of land would be just another Islamic terror state.

#78

Millions more Jews live in peace in the United States than in Israel. Why American society is an unacceptable model for the rest of the world is beyond me.

#83 Alex

That's OK, after the first few dozen bombing in New York City this week, you'll understand better.

#83 Alex
I agree. That would be great, but that's not the reality nor does it have the possibility of ever being reality, so let's get back to reality and tell me what the practical alternative would be and how you would assure the safety of this minority as well as other minorities dependant upon the nation-state structure for any level of security from outside threats.

SecHumanist, what, sue the Guardian and the Seattle Times!?
Did you know that, because of Soviet censorship, Solzhenitsyn, whilst imprisoned, had to write 'The Gulag Archipelago' on toilet paper?

Despite the Soviets and your vicious attempts at silencing the bright and valiant upholders of the inalienable right of freedom of speech, martyrs like Nicole Brodeur and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn march on!

Caton (#84): Fuck you.

75: Not quite; assuming you are referring to 36, I said that this article is not anti-Semitic, as the original post insisted.

Then you say I "condone genocide against one group of people and all the while accept superficial lies coming from totalitarian regimes that don't even hide their Jew hatred". Are you talking about my posts? I didn't say anything remotely resembling this.

Get a grip. I didn't say that anti-Semitism doesn't exist, or that it is not common in the Arab world, or that it is anything but reprehensible. I only said that it is not synonymous with criticism of Israel, and that the Guardian article is not anti-Semitic. That's all.

If you want me to say it, I will:

Many Arab regimes unfairly demonize Israel, largely to deflect criticism from their own corruption and despotism;
Several Palestinian extremist groups have engaged in brutal and unjustified terrorist attacks against civilians;
These same extremists will not accept a two-state solution, but only a single Islamic state;
The other Arab states have done little or nothing to help the Palestinians.

Athos (#24 & #31)

Thank you for that, it comforts me. I know that this time we will stand together. It just feels lonely sometimes, and hostile, and occasionally I run out of strength.

ploome,

You are the cutest person on LGF, no question. See soccermom, I told you ploome would be along soon to help you out :-)

ploome (#33)

or else make aliya..

I don't know how you know because I haven't discussed it with anyone, but I have been thinking about that lately.

P.S. Sorry I skipped out earlier. I got involved in something and only had a chance to check in now.

And thank you, Charles, from the bottom of my heart, for LGF.

#87 someone

What's wrong? Angry that I forgot your home town? Don't worry -- it'll happen there, too.

#82 Jeff,
So now we know that you AND your entire extended family are a bunch of self-loathing Jews who don't understand the raison d'etre of the Jewish state, nor take into account the FACT that in it's absence, that piece of land would be just another Islamic terror state.

Point #1 (I and every other non-Zionist Jew is self-loathing) is incoherent - I understand fully the raison d'etre of Zionism, and condemn it nonetheless as an unsustainable political structure. I agree that Israeli society trumps its neighbors in every category (who wouldn't?) Why would the prospect of a completely secular Israeli government compromise its security or ongoing prosperity?

A young woman died. However odious one may find her opinions, it is still tragic.

Did you know that, because of Soviet censorship, Solzhenitsyn, whilst imprisoned, had to write 'The Gulag Archipelago' on toilet paper?

Damn.. and I have trouble writing phone numbers on napkins without getting the numbers all fudged up.

As for the suing, I figured a while back that if I patented making outrageous and inane comparisons to historical events, then people would have to stop doing it. :) I'm sure if I wrote it up properly, our patent office would actually be stupid enough to issue one, that would be fun enforcing that one.

Tyrone (#88)

Get a grip. I didn't say that anti-Semitism doesn't exist, or that it is not common in the Arab world, or that it is anything but reprehensible.

The Arabs are not the only anti-Semitic people in the world, as I'm sure you know, and I have to disagree with you about the al-Guardian article not being anti-Semitic. It most definitely is.

This type of bullshit:

Where, then, had it come from? Paranoia suggested the Israeli secret service, which monitors such events. This picture also looked, to some expert eyes, doctored.

Stirring the pot, that is. al-Guardian are notoriously anti-Semitic. It drips from every word. And there is simply no denying it.

#84

I hope not -- believe me I don't relish riding the subways nowadays. But no amount of Islamicist terrorism will make Zionism any more palatable ... if anything, it reinforces my strong belief that religion has no place whatsoever in politics.

#92 Paul S.

How many young women died in traffic accidents in the last 24 hours through no fault of their own?

That bitch deserved to die.

#95 Alex

Bah. Nobody forces you to live in Israel, nor to adopt Zionism. However, you seem very intent in condemning it, despite knowing nothing of the reasons for it.

Israeli citizens, through their vote, decide how they want to organize their country. As long as it is no direct danger to you and your own, you have no right to condemn or interfere. Given that you seem to ignore completely the realities of the Middle East, you are entitled to an opinion.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and they're all full of ...

Sutherland uses the usual techniques of veiling and cultivating mistrust and suspicion of the J-E-W-S by being obtuse, and implying and suggesting their misdeeds without accusing them directly.

Consider the sentences, "Paranoia suggested the Israeli secret service, which monitors such events. This picture also looked, to some expert eyes, doctored."

Sutherland, first tries to dismiss suspicion of the pictures veracity by suggesting that those who claim they were faked by the J-E-W-S are "paranoid," which is designed to give the impression that he's maintaining impartiality on the subject, but then he tosses in a vague reference to unamed "expert eyes" who claim they looked doctored.

Of course, we know they weren't doctored - their source and authenticity is well established - but his goal is to raise the specter of the invisible hand of the manipulative Mossad and make the reader wonder if this is yet another scam pulled off by the International Zionist Conspiracy.

Why not name these experts if they exist? What have they got to hide? Is being able to recognize a Photoshop job a skill that requires anonymity? Perhaps his "expert eyes" can all be found on fark.com?

Then take this sentence, "Another picture showed her fallen in front of the murderous blade."

When was the trial that convicted the bulldozer operator of murder? Or is it the case that whenever a J-E-W is involved in the death of a gentile that it is assumed to be a case of murder for Mr. Sutherland?

Why would the prospect of a completely secular Israeli government compromise its security or ongoing prosperity?

Because as long as the stated goal of its neighbors is to kill off the "monkeys and pigs" in the region, the political weakness that would result from an unrestrictive immigration policy (coupled with their high birthrate) with regards to these sworn enemies would be lethal. Whether you want to admit it or not, the past of even occasional tolerance of Jews by Arabs is long gone - replaced by a fanatical, religion induced hatred that can't just be ignored because you live in an idyllic world. It's not Israel that turned Islam into a political weapon - its the Arab nations and the rhetoric they condone and even nurture - fix that issue first.

I could go on, but better yet, why don't you explain what is inherently wrong about its immigration policies and explain how they are any different from citizenship in countries unlike the U.S. (say, Germany for example). Is it the fact that it's based on religion specifically and not ethnicity that bothers you? That's a pretty murky line to be walking.

I would'nt use the Guardian for toiletpaper.Its the offical house organ for the liberal lefties of England.

But no amount of Islamicist terrorism will make Zionism any more palatable ... if anything, it reinforces my strong belief that religion has no place whatsoever in politics.

And only the religious Italians believe they should have an Italy.

#97

Its my issue by virtue of my partial tax-derived sponsorship, by the billions of direct and indirect aid every taxpayer provides. As far as direct danger, I live in the cross hairs of the Islamic world in part due to my country's (appropriate and desirable) support for Israel . I endorse this support insofar as it promotes a semi-secular capitalistic democracy.-- To the extent Israeli questions are wrapped up with religious identity politics, they are unpalatable to me and millions of other American Jews, and most importantly, American NON-Jews.

Alex

if anything, it reinforces my strong belief that religion has no place whatsoever in politics.

Do you not realize how obvious and agreeable a statement that is (at least to most people)?

I want world peace, and end to hunger around the world, and happiness for all! Whheeeee!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you're currently enrolled in a university, huh? You seem to be quite removed from reality, and seem to be averse to making practical, rather than idyllic, suggestions - but I could be wrong. Or maybe you're channeling John Lennon?

#95

Alex, I feel exactly the same way.

I mean, why should the French Catholics have a country of their own?

And what about the Catholic Spaniards?

And what about those Shinto Japanese?

Or those Protestant British?

And just who do those Hindu Indians think they are having their own country?

It's all so very unpalatable, all these different cultures and religions trying to preserve their identity.

The nerve of them!

Why can't we have one big atheist world with just one race? Or maybe just one big Islamic society?

Everything would be so much simpler that way!

/sarcasm

Alex,

I don't understand you at all, but that doesn't matter. I have but one question for you. Why is it more important that non-Jews feel the same way about Israel that you do? And take it easy there on the millions of American Jews. I think you're wrong about that.

# 96 Caton

Your comment "that bitch deserved to die" says more about you then her.

"How many young women died in traffic accidents in the last 24 hours through no fault of their own?"

Is this a skill-testing question?

Here Here! And if we ever come across a fully godless state like Soviet Russia again we should throw our support behind it.

/sarcasm

#104 Craig

Do any of those modern-day countries accord any segment of their populations special privileges on the basis of religion? The analogy is anapplicable to any other modern democracy.

#105,

It's not more important, it's as important. They pick up part of the tab, too. And there are many, many more of them.

#107

I for one did not find atheism to be among communist Russia's many salient shortcomings.

Alex (#109)

But you said...

To the extent Israeli questions are wrapped up with religious identity politics, they are unpalatable to me and millions of other American Jews, and most importantly, American NON-Jews.

Hence my question.

#102 Alex

Well, if you think Israel is at the root of this conflict, then there's really nothing to discuss with you. That means you look history straight in the face and ignore it - ignore how anti-American sentiment was present in 1948 as the Soviet Union helped Israel fend of invading Arab armies. You'll ignore how when the U.S. wasn't supporting Israel in any way and providing 60% of the all of Egypt's bread, they still rioted and destroyed the American embassy in Egypt all while anti-American sentiment in government-sponsored presses was as feverish as ever. You'll ignore how the entire Arab world blamed their failure in '67 on the Americans despite the fact that they offered no aid - neither diplomatically nor financially - to Israel.

Instead, you decide to listen to the little bald man (Rahman) or the sexually ambiguous creature (Ashwari) that come on TV and with straight faces blames anti-Americanism that existed long before American support for Israel on events in the present. You'll always be content to explain away the past with the present - I personally can't time-travel, so I'm going to stick with the assumption that Arabs can't either.

If all you really want is to "make the Arabs happy," I guarantee you the only way is to dismantle our military, prevent our companies from operating overseas, and relinquish rights of national security to an international body with Arabs as its members.

But, logically speaking, why would governments that use Israel as a scapegoat to ensure their continued reign, want to give up that scapegoat? What country do you think will be the next scapegoat after Israel is gone?

SecHumanist (#93) wrote:

I figured a while back that if I patented making outrageous and inane comparisons to historical events, then people would have to stop doing it.

Your machiavellian machinations to quash the voices of the quivering masses by means of the US Patent system reminds me of.... um...

Zounds, your plot is sufficiently weird that I can't think of any historical precedent to twist to my cause.

#103, if you think Israel is a model of a pure secular democracy, you live in fantasyland, not I. I already live in a society with no offical religious identity, that has thrived in pluralistic harmony for several hundred years. Arch-zionists and (to a far greater degree Islamicists) live in a fantasyland concocted by religious zealots and ideologues, a category even stupider than rock stars in my book.

The Israeli secret service doctored the pictures...

The modern way of the anti-semites to elaborate the the old idea of the protocols of the elders of Zion, is to make the Israeli secret services as an omnipotent evil which manipulate governments and individuals.

By the way, modern scholarship show surprisingly that the common image of the evil Jew in Europe, including the famous big nose, originated in the early medeaval England not in the continent.

What teachers, and they are keeping to the tradition.

P.S. As to the British Intelligence one can say that for half a century after the war, it was the Russian intelligence branch in the west, due, among other reasons, to those individuals which now find other way to betray the west.

Alex (#110) wrote:

I for one did not find atheism to be among communist Russia's many salient shortcomings.

Oh yeah, nothing wrong with a state-enforced manditory religion.

Off topic.

Jenin plaza named for bomber of US troops

The name of the plaza in Jenin was changed from Mosque Square to the Na'mani Square during a rally Sunday attended by scores of camp residents and Palestinian officials, sources said Monday.

"We want to honor the brave Iraqi officer who carried out the first suicide attack against the American and British occupiers," a senior Palestinian official in Jenin told The Jerusalem Post.

"We hope there will be more suicide operations in the coming days."

Could there possibly be a more vile people? The sickness will never cease to amaze me.

#108 Alex

Israel.

It does accord one segment of the citizenry special priveleges on the basis of religion: The Muslims.

They aren't required to perform mandatory service in the IDF.

#116 --

I don't understand. The practice of religion was discouraged under communism.

Alex,

As for the tab, let's not forget that it's a two way street - the U.S. invests in Israel and gets a good deal for it. Is it worth the aid money - only you can decide that for yourself - I think it is - especially when you consider most of that cost was offsetting Soviet imperialism. Perhaps you don't know what we get for the money:

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

[Link: www.aipac.org...]

[Link: www.aipac.org...]

[Link: www.aipac.org...]

[Link: www.globetechnology.com...]

- All that doesn't mention the intelligence assets, the historical strategic necessity to offset the Soviet Union (Israel captured Soviet technology and shared it with the U.S.), destruction of Iraq's nuclear arsenal, and the current strategic benefit of having years of experience with Islamist terrorism (expect to see some bulldozers in Iraq).

#106 Paul S

Yeah, my statements say three things:

1. I am not particularly impressed by idiots who put themselves in dangerous positions.

2. I am even less impressed by those who see the above idiots as heroes.

3. My compassion goes to people who suffer through no fault of their own.

Now be a nice tool and fuck off.

#118

They (Muslims) are also not guaranteed permanent immigration rights and land set-asides. In addition government spending is proportionally far lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas; on a per capita basis, the Government spends two-thirds as much for Arabs as for Jews.

Don't believe me? Ask Uncle Sam.

#120,

I know exactly what we get, and I endorse US support for Israel... this does not presuppose an endorsement of Zionism.

#102 Alex

Its my issue by virtue of my partial tax-derived sponsorship, by the billions of direct and indirect aid every taxpayer provides.

Nope, that's an issue you have with your elected representatives. Provided you vote, that is.

As far as direct danger, I live in the cross hairs of the Islamic world in part due to my country's (appropriate and desirable) support for Israel .

That's indirect danger, and blaming the victims, too. Or are you claiming the Mossad is targeting you?

I endorse this support insofar as it promotes a semi-secular capitalistic democracy.

I suggest, again, you take this up with your elected representatives. If you are old enough to vote, that is.

To the extent Israeli questions are wrapped up with religious identity politics, they are unpalatable to me and millions of other American Jews, and most importantly, American NON-Jews.

I like the way you don't hide your anti-semitism. It's a welcome change from the mainstream hypocrisy. However, it makes any meaningful dialogue totally impossible.

Asshole.

#114 Alex
Riiight. Take the U.S. during it's first 50 years and add perpetual warfare, boycotts, and threats to its existence from multiple neighboring nations - let's see how open and tolerant that nation would have been - well, ignoring the slavery, the lack of women's suffrage, and so on and so forth.

Don't make me bust out the list of atrocities this country has commited around the world and all the institutionalized and legalized inequalities at home - I will go Chomsky on yo' ass. I guess from your perspective we can rule out you being Jewish, Irish, Japanese, Asian, German, American Indian, or African American (I'm sure I missed a few ethnic groups in there).

Why aren't you getting that you can't just snap your fingers and make the rest of the world the America of today, that there are other issues in other countries that America has never faced?

The fact that Israel is as open, tolerant, and liberal as it is today despite all these existential threats is truly a testament to a remarkable Israeli nature - one of the many reasons I support their basic right to exist.

Alex, (#119)

For all intents and purposes, Communist atheism is a religion.

And 'discouraged' is a distressingly mild term for the actions of the regime toward non-state sanctioned religions.

#122 Alex

Dude, did you just quote a source that applauded the destruction of a holy site to Jews and whitewashes terrorism every chance it gets? Separate diplomacy and politicized reporting from fact.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

#124,

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at your misplaced (and unaccountable) vitriol. Are you on any medication?

If my tax dollars support a regime that practices religious discrimination, have I no recourse? Of course, so long as Israel practices religious discrimination of any kind, it will certainly find it difficult to win continued support among many Americans. So long as chauvinists such as yourself refuse to notice it, the process will be accelerated.

#114 Alex

Judaism isn't merely a religion. The Jews are just as much a distinct people as the French and the Italians etc... That was the point I tried to make to you, but you just didn't get it.

Most Jewish Israelis are secular. The Russian Jews immigrating there are about as religious as you are. Judaism has its foundations in religion but it has evolved into a nation that transcends race, ritual and even culture. The litmus test for citizenship under the "right of return" law isn't religious practice or racial ancestry, but parental heritage, just as it is for most modern-day countries.

Those who are anti-Zionist are in favor of fracturing a nation of people and scattering them to wind. I wouldn't even do that to the French.

#127,

Your Post article references an entirely different document [I referenced the State Dept.'s report on human rights in Israel and the West Bank/Gaza.] What exactly is your point?

#110

well, you see what happens when the state becomes the end all and be all of morality? Maybe it was a shortcoming after all.

#129

I don't know about scattering them to the wind. It seems as if American Jews for one made out quite nicely well before Israel's existence.

#118

They (Muslims) are also not guaranteed permanent immigration rights and land set-asides.

Why should they be? Is there a shortage of Muslim nations? What kind of immigration rights do Jews get in predominantly Muslim nations?

In addition government spending is proportionally far lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas; on a per capita basis, the Government spends two-thirds as much for Arabs as for Jews.

The money goes to where it comes from in tax revenues. Revenues from Jews is higher than it is from Arabs on a per capita basis. It makes perfect sense to invest more where productivity is higher.

#121 Caton

I'll f*** off if I damn well please. Some flakey poster hiding behind his keyboard isn't going to do it. (That's you if you are too thick to get the drift.)

The graveyards in America would be overflowing if every idiotic male in their 20's died for some stupid action they took. Rachel Corrie was stupid, but so what? I was. You were, and probably still are.

As for your supposed compassion for people who suffer through no fault of their own.......yeah right.

#130 Alex
Right, and I referenced the source, saying you shouldn't trust everything coming out of the State Department, but if you insist, here's the direct report.

International Religious Freedom Report

The PA does not provide financial support to any Jewish institutions or holy sites in the Occupied Territories; however, it paid for the refurbishment of Joseph's Tomb after it was damaged by Palestinian demonstrators in 2000.

No mention of the fact that Palestinians refuse to acknowledge the site as holy to Jews. Nor of the fact that the "refurbishment" was actually building a mosque over the site.

In other words - take State Dept. reports with a large grain of salt - they're not reports to get the truth out, they're political reports.

#134 Paul S.

That bitch knowingly supported terrorism. And dies of her own stupidity. No compassion. None. I have less compassion for the bitch than I have for suicide bombers.

Now, you poor useless tool, why don't you pull your own Corrie? There are plenty of bulldozers in the world. I'm sure you'll find one you like.

#134

Don't sweat it man... so some sweaty-palmed lunatic want's to kill you for echoing the echo chamber ... take it as a compliment.

#136 Caton

Tough guy hiding behind his keyboard. LOL

#132 Alex

Arggghhh.. again. America does not equal The World. Unless your suggesting that every Jew in the world come to America for protection - gee, that's not going to make the crazy Islamists hate us or anything - how long before you are one of the people suggesting we expel them from the country to make the Islamists happy (again)?

#134

I blew up pipe bombs at the quarry, drove too fast, and other such stuff. HOWEVER, I was never stooopid enough to jump in front of a bulldozer to protect killers - such stupidity needs to be held up for scorn esp. as it is enabling people who kill people.

#129

I don't know about scattering them to the wind. It seems as if American Jews for one made out quite nicely well before Israel's existence.

Yeah, and what about the European Jews and the Jews from the Arab countries who were ethnically cleansed? Really, that smarmy reply was cynical and low.

What more can be said to you but this:

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

#139

Many of the Israelis I know would just love if Israel became the 51st state, religion be damned. What does that tell me?

Doesn't speak volumes for their faith in Zionism as an organizing principle.

Oh but at least their sister paper the Observer is better, isn' it?

[Link: www.observer.co.uk...]

here's decoded for the few newcomers to paleo-commie speak:

Sharon's commitment to peace [ = appeasing any and all pale-arab demands] is doubted by many. His government includes Ministers from many disparate right-wing [ = evil, evil, evil] parties and does not accept the road map. This means peace [ = appeasement] can be vetoed by any small extremist group [ = right wing = extremist = evil], regardless of what the Palestinians do [ = regardless of their heroic revolutionary acts of martyrdom against the imperialist aggressors - which should be rewarded, not punished ].

While the world argues about the next step towards peace [ = appeasing any and all demands by dictators], the lives of Palestinians are becoming more miserable [= they are oppressed by the evil Zionist occupiers]. Optimism about political change could easily turn to despair [ = they only become terrorists because they're made miserable by the evil Zionist occupiers ] and be channelled back towards Hamas and Islamic Jihad [ = terrorism is entirely the fault of the evil Zionist occupation], which claim [ = we actually give total credit to claims from Hamas and Islamic Jihad!] peace initiatives are just a tactic to thwart Palestinian aspirations [ = it's all one big evil right wing Zionist conspiracy to fool the heroic revolutionaries into reacting with more despair which will provoke more desperate terrorism so they will be even more oppressed].

Ahmad Ghnaim said: 'If the international community [ = those we brainwashed into forgetting about history] fails to persuade Israel to take proper action [ = surrender ], like withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza [ = all of Israel] and stopping assassinations and killing civilians [ = forfeit the right to defend itself in a war ], it will send a clear message that the approach of Hamas and Islamic Jihad is correct [ = Pontius Pilate award: we wash our hands of the terrorism we incite, it's all the filthy Jews's fault] .'


Sorry, couldn't resist. I get the feeling they actually moved up a notch in the pro-jihadi rhetoric since the start of the talks of war on Iraq. Or perhaps I wasn't reading this sort of thing before, I don't know.

There's one thing that makes this sort of "press" very, very dangerous:

People ARE IGNORANT of the history! just heard a caller on a tv debate saying he was against the war on Iraq because "... this war will go on indefinitely just like the war between Israel and Palestine" - so you get ill faith and prejudice and idiocy summed with actual ignorance of facts = answer to the billion-dollar question of "how could the nazis rule for so many years without people realising".

Don't even have the excuse of not knowing, today.

#139

let's just turn it around and expel the middle east from the face of the earth to make us happy! I guess that works in Alex's morally equivelent world.

Martin Luther King is a Christian theolgian and as such I find many of his arguments, including this one, quite poor.

#142 Alex
So is that what you're suggesting?

#138 Paul S

You've got my email just up there, tool. I don't see yours. Who's hiding?

How tough can a useless tool can be?

#141 Craig
Sorry to break it to you, but that letter was a forgery. The sentiments match his statements, but the letter itself is not his.

#146
I endorse a completely non-discriminatory immigration and land-use policy, and a goverment stripped of religious trappings. works for me.

Some people have never learned to distinguish between criticism and slander.

When "criticism" of Israel is based on LIES, then it is slander -- and the motive can be assumed to be impure.

A British friend of mine, who is "in the know" about politics there, has written that the present British government is the most Jew-hating since Ernest Bevan.

#93 SecHumanist

If you write your patent as software, then you stand a better chance of getting it published. The USPTO publishes some very silly software patents, causing far more confusion than yours would cause.

But I must warn you - defending patent infringement is very expensive so holding a patent is not a guarantee that a wealthier opponent cannot use your technique.

#149 Alex
Does that courtesy extend to declared enemies of the state?

How would you address cooperation between newly and non-assimilated immigrants with foreign countries or supranational entities (let's call that Islam for now) or groups (let's call those terrorist groups for now)?

How would you limit immigration? And would you apply these same citizenship standards in Europe and the rest of the world simultaneously?

"A pose inescapably reminiscent of Tiananmen Square"

??????

I couldn't read past this line ... comparing her stand in front of a bulldozer to the man standing in front of the tank (which is what I assume the writer is talking about) is just idiocy

Ethnic co-operation presupposes ethnic equality. State sponsored discrimination shares some (though nowhere near most) responsibility with external Muslim agitation for Arab hatred of Israel.

#154 Alex
I fail to see what specific problems you have with the current setup in Israel. The disproportionate funding is a laughable red herring - you could say the same thing about predominantly African American neighborhoods here - it's a direct result of the political process.

So is it just the deference given to people of similar cultural background? If so, I assume you raise these issues when discussing any other nation in the world that has identical citizenship policies?

BTW, both of us are all over the place on the terminology - are we talking citizenship, immigration, membership, migrant workers? I assume you're talking about citizenship.

I still haven't heard a practical response for dealing with an influx of immigrant would-be citizens that openly profess their goals to be the destruction of the state. The primary purpose of a nation-state is to defend its citizens, how is that purpose accomplished with a majority that could dissolve that state?

#155,

It is a direct result of official state set-asides for Jews and has no analogue in the US or Europe. Obviously, immigration should be denied to anyone professing an intention to destroy the government. My belief however is that an Israel stripped of its Zionism, which many Arabs see as state-sponsored ethnic discrimination, would be one the Arabs would be happy to live with.

#149 Alex:

I endorse a completely non-discriminatory immigration and land-use policy, and a goverment stripped of religious trappings. works for me.

This would mean the end of Israel as it is. Israel, being the most advanced / developed nation in the middle east would be the destination for all Arab economic migrants who can't make it to the US or Europe. Israel, being a democracy, would soon have an Arab majority who would elect Arab/Muslim leaders. Israel would become the peoples democratic republic of Palestine quicker than you could say inshallah.

I agree that religion and politics is a bad mix - most people do. I would like all states to be secular & allow freedom of religion. I would also like it if nobody wanted to kill me because I am not Muslim and will not convert.

Meanwhile, back in reality - the secular idea as embodied by the West is at risk from it's openly declared enemies, Jihadi Islamists and the more subtle, undeclared 'might is wrong' enemies.

aaah yes the Guardian. I once read a regular commentator - David Aaronovitch state that the Australian Aborigines were the only ones who should decide Australia's immigration policy (afghans/Iraqis being detained in the desert). I had to wonder why I was excluded from the Uks as an indigenous person and why no mention was made of the Welsh and Cornish deciding who were bona fide asylum seekers......

#157

I guess this is what comes of no Constitution (hence no 1st amendment.) Back in reality, Israel faces imminent destruction daily at the hands of its neighbors, who use its policy of open religious discrimination to stoke hatred among their people.

More on the necessary anti-semitism of Muslim societies.

Alex,

Let me see if I can explain this right, you tell me whether this works for you:

You're viewing everything through a uniquely American perspective - where a modern national consciousness is predominant in our society and is unlikely to ever be seriously threatened because of our multicultural make-up and therefore inherently counterbalancing group interests. Those people who don't integrate into our society won't really have much political sway due to the checks and balances in our system and the unlikelihood of these groups amassing a large enough base to gain power in a dual-party, bi-cameral system. The same can't be said for France, for example, where the Muslim minority holds disproportionate sway over its government.

In Israel, however, the society is less multicultural and more bicultural (this is a sweeping generalization, I know, but I'm simplifying). Also, Israel's political structure is not that of the U.S. - it's parliamentary system is based on coalition building - which often leads to certain political groups having more control than their votes would allow them in our system (I'm hazy on the theory here, but I think this is an inherent problem in proportional representation systems). Now the major problem arises when a group has a sense of community membership that is greater than (>) the national consciousness - as you do with Arabs in the Middle East.

So, in summary:
(community > nation ideology) + the rhetoric and hatred in the Arab world = destruction of Israel as a state and likely creation of a new Arab tyranny and/or genocide of the now minority inhabitants.

Maybe you're saying this is desirable, but I don't see how anybody could be that cynical or more to the point, how this would benefit the U.S. in any way.

#160,

You forget to make mention that religious and ethnic discrimination have each been Constitutionally proscribed for many years. In Israel, they are quite literally the law of the land. I am unconvinced that a secularized Israel would revert to an Islamic dictatorship.

It is a direct result of official state set-asides for Jews and has no analogue in the US or Europe.

You're going to have to give me a link on this, because I'm not understanding what you're getting at. Arabs are also eligible for welfare payments, but there are a few differences because of the army service as far as I know (no way around that, having Arabs fight Arabs for Israel isn't practical).

#161 Alex

Well, that community identity is grounded in rigorous Jew hatred - I'm very convinced of the outcome of allowing that into power. That hatred existed long before Israel existed, so you can't try to argue that it's Israel's "discrimination" that causes it.

A secular state would not remain secular for long once Islamist forces controlled it - especially as long as the rest of the Middle East status quo is maintained and Islamists are in power in Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.

Just because Arabs keep referring to Israel as racist doesn't make it so, and it doesn't mean those arguments are even genuine on their side - remember you're talking about a totalitarian regime. But I do find it fascinating that you link to a radical theocracy as the example to follow.

From the same State Dept. doc as before (I'm not sure what the previous links were meant to prove, considering its content is wholly undisputed by the Israeli government):

"
The Government states that it is committed to granting equal and fair conditions to Israeli Arabs, particularly in the areas of education, housing, and employment. However, the Government does not provide Israeli Arabs, who constitute approximately 20 percent of the population, with the same quality of education, housing, employment, and social services as Jews. On a per capita basis, the Government spends two-thirds as much for Arabs as for Jews. Although such policies are based on a variety of factors, they reflect de facto discrimination against the country's non-Jewish citizens.

In civic areas in which religion is a determining criterion, such as the religious courts and centers of education, non-Jewish institutions routinely receive less state support than their Orthodox Jewish counterparts. Additionally, National Religious (i.e., modern Orthodox, one of Israel's official Jewish school systems) and Christian parochial schools complain that they receive less funding than secular schools despite the fact that they voluntarily abide by all national curricular standards. During the period covered by this report, the two groups together took their case for equal funding to the High Court.

Government resources available to Arab public schools are less than proportionate to those available to Jewish public schools. Israeli Arab private religious schools are considered among the best in the country; however, parents often must pay tuition for their children to attend such schools due to inadequate government funding. Jewish private religious schools receive significant government funding. Non-Jews are underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in the higher level professional and business ranks.

Government funding to the different religious sectors is disproportionate. Non-Orthodox streams of Judaism and the non-Jewish sector receive proportionally less funding than the Orthodox Jewish sector. Only 2 percent of the Ministry of Religious Affairs budget goes to the non-Jewish sector. The High Court of Justice heard a case in 1997 alleging that the budgetary allocation to the non-Jewish sector constituted discrimination. In 1998 the Court ruled that the budget allocation constituted "prima facie discrimination" but that the plaintiff's petition did not provide adequate information about the religious needs of the various communities. In May 2000, the same plaintiffs presented a case on the specific needs of religious communities regarding burials. The court agreed that non-Jewish cemeteries were receiving inadequate resources and ordered the Government to increase funding to such cemeteries; the Government began to implement this decision in 2001, though some groups complained that implementation was too slow.

The Jewish National Fund owns approximately 8 percent of the country’s land area and manages another 8 percent on behalf of the Government. The JNF’s by-laws prohibit it from selling or leasing land to non-Jews, which has prevented Israeli Arabs from buying homes in JNF developed areas.

Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged the Government's "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab villages and towns, on the grounds that it discriminates against Arab citizens. "

By the way, SecHumanist, what did you make of the Christian Science monitor article re: Iranian/Jewish tolerance?

It seems rather odd that people who object to Israel basing its nationality on Jewishness are not at all perturbed -- or even aware -- of

the number of nations that have "Islamic" in their official names

the number of European nations that have Christian crosses on their flags (United Kingdom has THREE of them interlocking).

But being Jewish is not the same thing as following any other religion, because it is a religion combined with a national identity and national history.

In English "Jew" and "Judean" are two different words -- Jew for religion and Judean for nationality. But in Hebrew there is only one word "Yehudi" --

The State of Israel is a reconstitution of the ancient nation of Israel-Judah-Judea. And with it goes not only a religion but also a history, a culture, a language, a literature, an ethos, a society, a way of life.

Of course many Jews, including some of the posters here, have no feeling for the historical-cultural-national identity of being Jewish. Some feel it, and understand and sympathize with it from a distance. Some feel it strongly enough to make aliyah (as I myself did).

By the way, Alex, as someone who lives in "Tehrangeles" I can tell you that the article you linked to on Jews in Iran is BS. There are still Iranian Jews imprisoned today who haven't been charged .. I can't find the link but I spoke to somebody about this for quite some time. The discrimination in Iran is also the "law of the land" - they are second class citizens all the way.

Here's one source

#165 Alex
Sorry.. was writing the other post before I read yours. But I'm also going to ask some friends of mine (visiting one tomorrow). He's a Muslim Iranian, so I'll get that perspective too.

I can tell you most of the people I've asked about it said they loved the country under the Shah, but were happy enough to leave once the revolution took place, but I'll do a little more research on it.

I'll admit: THIS picture of dear Rachel has been manipulated-

[Link: www.angelfire.com...]

#165 Alex

Damn I'm tired. I also meant to mention that Iranians are not Arabs - it's a totally different culture and history - so that comparison isn't all too fair. Similarly, comparing Turks and Arabs would be just as bad a comparison, actually much worse.

Also, something you can't really grasp unless your in that situation.. but when you are a minority in an unstable country - often a minority that does financially well - you're always waiting for the shoe to drop - you never know when you're going to have to sell everything and leave the country, so you try to keep everything as liquid as possible. It's easy to overlook that when you live in a stable country like this, but it does have its effect on the community psyche.

It's getting late (or early), and if I don't go to sleep soon, the sun will be up. Good night, I'll let you know what my friends say about it tomorrow.

Yeah i need some sleep myself. Let me know what you find.

Before I go, this was the thing I found in a google search:

[Link: www.fas.org...]

I used to have a link w/ their pictures and stories (as well as other stories), but I have no idea what void that's fallen into.

Anyway.. sleep now, chat later.

"Rachel Corrie died under a bulldozer for her beliefs and now her reputation is being blogged to death"

Uhm.

That's like saying:

"Adolf Hitler died underground in a bunker for his beliefs and now his reputation is being blogged to death"

Right?

"What have we come to? The speed with which this kind of devil's advocacy can now (thanks to the net) be mounted, its sheer unbridled violence and its moral irresponsibility are, to the thoughtful mind, more frightening than any of those WMDs for whose (dubious) existence Britons are, at this moment, laying down their lives. Stop the world: I want to log off."

Well, in the mode of cute paliestinian style death threats, that yellow journalists get warm hearts for... (Let me restore your faith in humanity):

JIHAD AGAINST AL-GAURDIAN! ALLAH AKBAR! DEATH TO AL-GAURIDAN! KILL THE KAFFIR PAPER! ISSUE A FATWAH FOR JOHN SUTHERLAND, THE INFIDEL!

there don't you feel less threatened, and warm hearted, now John?

J Lichty, for example, posted his opinion that, "This deluded harpie did not want peace, she did not want human rights, she wanted victory. Victory for the enemies of America, victory for the enemies of the Jews, victory for the enemy of civilisation."

"Deluded Harpie" --- les mots justes!! If Rachel Corrie used her Wu-Tang name, as I do, on this forum, I have no doubt that is exactly what the Wu Name generator would spit out.

So let's hack the Al-Guardian site already! If they're gonna cry about Jewish conspiracies let's give 'em something to cry about! :o)

The speed with which this kind of devil's advocacy can now (thanks to the net) be mounted, its sheer unbridled violence and its moral irresponsibility are, to the thoughtful mind, more frightening than any of those WMDs for whose (dubious) existence Britons are, at this moment, laying down their lives.

All together, class:

''Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But names can, in a very real sense, be equally destructive.''

Anybody checked out Steve Bell's cartoons for the Guardian? Blair as a "mad dog", Dubya as a chimpanzee... with the witlessness and continual depiction of political opponents as "subhumans" it could be something out of Der Sturmer.

"What have we come to? The speed with which this kind of devil's advocacy can now (thanks to the net) be mounted, its sheer unbridled violence and its moral irresponsibility are, to the thoughtful mind, more frightening than any of those WMDs for whose (dubious) existence Britons are, at this moment, laying down their lives. Stop the world: I want to log off."

yes...YES.!!!....Log-Off and smell the cordite and the stench of nail-bombs...it's a brave new world out there.

Any Brits out there thought of calling the cops on this guy? After all, they have hate crime laws there. I'm not a fan of such laws, but hey, if he wants to play with the net down, why not oblige him?

Anyone who wastes his/her time and boosts advertising revenues for The Goebbelsian by frequenting their website, is surely a masochist. The incitement and rationalization of Arab and Muslim terrorism that is the hallmark of this anti-semitic rag is comparable to the most insidious neo-Nazi propaganda. By promoting and publishing this filth, The Goebbelsian editorial staff is complicit in the murder of hundreds of Israelis, Americans, and Indians.

Socialism, of the kind advocated by The Goebbelsian, has facilitated the killing of millions of people this century. It has been completely discredited as a moral or effectual political system; yet it remains chic for a small group of pseudo-intellectuals in Britain and the continent. The Goebbelsian is their oracle. Someday, its circulation will sink to the level of the Worker's Daily; until then, I'd rather remain calm and spend my time fisking the NYT.

Here is a good summary by Joe Farah of the attempts to falsify what happened
[Link: www.wnd.com...]

"The photo distributed internationally by Reuters and appearing on page 3 of the New York Times, March 17, was taken by the International Solidarity Movement. The Reuters caption mentioned only that the photo was taken prior to her death, suggesting that it was mere moments and that Corrie was standing with a megaphone in her hands.

"If that had been the case, I would be calling this murder, too.

"But it's not murder. It's more like suicide."

In the link to Farah, above, read the description of the reckless behavior of Corrie, according to Joe Smith, who attended Evergreen College with Corrie and traveled with her to the Gaza Strip.

To add to this attempted frame-up of the dozer driver, by circulating a photo taken considerably before this incident (the NYT published a correction and wrote that it was a different dozer), John Sutherland is now fabricating libels. Does the Guardian really need to have a writer whose word cannot be believed?

Five words:

Bitch
Got
What
She
Deserved

#150 Clio

A British friend of mine, who is "in the know" about politics there, has written that the present British government is the most Jew-hating since Ernest Bevan.

Why does your friend think that?

Barely had her body cooled than Rachel was promoted on the Palestine National Authority website as a heaven-sent martyr ("Israel killed another Angel").

..."she should burn in hell for an eternity." (The theology, as elsewhere, implies Christian fundamentalism rather than Judaic zealotry).

Notice that while the article is quite happy to trash Christianity and Judaism, and while it alludes to indirectly (and apparently condones) Islamofascism, there are absolutely no explicit references to Islam in this article?

"I suspect the editors at the Guardian as well as Sutherland know that these pictures are legit; they know and don't care. These people are antisemites...their aim is to make Jews...all Jews, all evil. They hate Jews and no lie is too large or too small to spread about those they hate. Their mindset is no different than any true believing Nazi. "

from looking at the guardian a great deal over the last two years, i must draw a conclusion many of you may not disagree with - that deep down, in their ultimate orientation, the Guardian is NOT anti-semitic and does NOT share the ideology of the Nazis.

Rather they are anti-American. Anti-Israel propaganda is merely a tool in their anti-Americanism. The historical analogy here is not to the Nazis, but to Karl Lueger the "anti-semitic" turn of the century Mayor of Vienna, who, when asked why he took money from rich Jews, replied "I decide who is a Jew" - for Lueger anti-semitism was a tool against his socialist enemies, not a genuine conviction.

Of course it should be recalled that such "insincere" anti-semitism can have grave consequences - it is said that Hitler picked up anti-semitism in Lueger's Vienna.

Nonetheless we should for now understand this for what it is - if the US tomorrow stopped supporting Israel the Guardian and its ilk would find some other anti-American issue to take up - indeed Fisk has signaled in recent columns his intent to focus on Kurds and Shiites who "massacre" sunni arabs in Iraq - only the slower pace of the war has deferred this.

Notice that the Euro left didnt turn firmly against Israel till the late 1960's - this is sometimes explained in terms of the occupation, or the rightward shift in Israeli politics - yet Israeli withdrawls and Labour party dominance in the '90s didnt affect the Euroleft view. The only clear explanation is the open and complete shift in Israel to the US alliance. That is the betrayal the Euroleft cannot forgive.

#159 Alex

reminds me of the book title...

"Been Down so Long, It looks Like Up to Me"

true dhimmization

The really funny thing about these pictures is that she unintentionally makes these people look...PEACEFUL, by comparison. I honestly don't remember a picture where a whole group of them, even children, has appeared so mellow. Particularly that kid in the upper right hand corner of the first picture.

I've sent a few Pizzas to the IDF. Can we start a collection to send them a BULLDOZER?

Frank IMC: yeah, noticed the same thing and it pissed me off to no end (amongst others).

Besides. "Burn in hell" = "religious fundamentalism"?? If I could speak to this ignorant prick from the Guardian, I'd like to ask: if even a mention of "hell" or "eternity" is a symptom of 'Christian fundamentalism' (or 'Judaic zealotry') ---- then bloody hell!! do we need to rewrite the history of British and American literature as well as the dictionary?

Watching a Coalition bulldozer in Iraq I realized something. If you are knocking down a building with a dozer, your first hit is not at the bottom, causing the wall to fall down on you, the first hit of the blade is high, and with the blade in that possition their is not way you could see a nazi like Rachel Corrie sitting or standing in front.

But that is logic, and Corrie's lie has moved into the catagory of jew hate lies like:

Dar Yesin ( Can't spell it, yes the jews killed, no the Jews did not rape, yes the arab men dressed as women to hide.) Always used by jew haters who ignore the hebron killings of jews years before.

The attack on the Liberty.

The Jenin massacure

THe Christ incident

Matzo and blood

176 Moe Katz

So let's hack the Al-Guardian site already! If they're gonna cry about Jewish conspiracies let's give 'em something to cry about! :o)

OK!

Rachel Corrie, the ultimate fashion victim, killed by the disease known as 'revolutionary chic'.

#182, Ee asks

"Does the Guardian really need to have a writer whose word cannot be believed?"

Yes, it does. Otherwise, they would have to fire their entire editorial and reporting staff, except for maybe the film reviewer :))

#186

Anti-Israel propaganda is merely a tool in their anti-Americanism.

Well, that's some consolation now!

Anyway, you're right in part, but it's not all there is - there's the 'third-worldism' factor, they love to distort terrorism into a struggle for independence scenario cos it's so 'oppressed of the world unite', so they have to portray the palestinian arabs as oppressed. They share the same resentment against the west.

There is a deeper anti-semitism there anyway, it may disguise itself as anti-americanism or playing the "oppressed" card, but it's still the same thing. The allusion to some conspiracy to alter photos is very clearly in the same vein as those blaming 9/11 in a Mossad/CIA plot. The New Statesman a few months ago had a cover that said "Kosher Conspiracy" regarding Jewish control of the British media (!!! the nerve!).

Oh but right, that's anti-Israel, not anti-semitic....

Always remember, and please never forget, Rachel Corrie did not go to the "occupied territories" to spread enlightenment to the Palestinians, she went there to cheer on the Palestinians as they killed Jews.

#40:

The next two sentences of the blog entry explain why the disclaimer is there. Not because the post is anti-Semitic, but because the pro-Israeli camp interprets nearly any criticism of Israel as being anti-Semitic.

You say that Jews are the best judges of what does or does not constitute anti-Semitism. So does merely being Jewish give someone the right to label any criticism of Israel "anti-Semitic"? What happens to Jews who are critical of Israel? Are they anti-Semitic too?

By your logic, blacks would be the best qualified to determine what is racist against blacks. So anything Al Sharpton says is racist must be racist, right?

Of course blacks are best qualified to determine what is racist against blacks. Who is better qualified, Swedes?

Basically, I meant Jews collectively (also blacks). Obviously there are all kinds of cranks and individiuals with varying agendas and perspectives, but there's a pretty good bet that when the vast majority of any one group has a perspective that it is the authentic perspective of the group. While it's true that there are anti-Zionist Jews, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Highlighting some token "good" Jews who bash Israel does not mean that this is the Jewish perspective.

Certainly Jews know antisemitism when we see it. Who else would? The vast majority of Jews understand that anti-Zionism is identical to antisemitism, no ifs and or buts.

Jewish anti-Zionists, you ask? Two words: Stockholm Syndrome.

The Christ incident

On Good Friday, every Italian I meet, I'm going to scream at him, "you killed my savior!"

Not that I actually believe in ANY sort of collective guilt, but it's amazing that the ethnic group which is descended from the Romans who sentenced him to death, and actually nailed him to the cross, has gotten absolutely no blame for the past 2000 years.

Liberalhawk:

The Goebbelsian is anti-Israeli not because it is anti-American but because liberal Europeans view Israel as a construct of western colonialism which is oppressing "native" peoples. This notion gained momentum when millions of Jews emigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s and the theme has been masterfully exploited by the Pals.

Whoops, I forgot to add the obligatory, "but some of my best friends are Italian".

:)

I've said it before, I'll say it again, she was stupid for not getting out of the way. The top speed on a bulldozer is what, nine, maybe ten miles and hour, flat out on a racetrack? It was a dumb accident, she was at fault, and she got squished because of it. Oops.

And I do love those 'flag burning' pictures, I wonder which of those little kids drew the paper flags, only to see this goofy granola girl go absolutely spastic on them. Great rolemodel for the kids.

Dumb people do dumb things, and sometimes, they pay for them. Case in point with Rachel Corrie, who'll never get a chance to become a suburban SUV driving soccer mom.

Cant say I'll miss her.

Alex #95,

But no amount of Islamicist terrorism will make Zionism any more palatable ... if anything, it reinforces my strong belief that religion has no place whatsoever in politics.

Not only do you understand nothing about Zionism, but you understand nothing about the nature of Jewish people. The Jews are both a people (e.g., a nation) and a religious community. This is why we have atheist Jews who the whole world understand to be Jewish as well as religious Jews which something that would otherwise not make sense.

Your opposition to Zionism should at least be rooted in an accurate understanding of what Zionism is and what Jews are. You oppose Zionism on the grounds that the Jews are only a religious community. This is simply false.

You say that Jews are the best judges of what does or does not constitute anti-Semitism...By your logic, blacks would be the best qualified to determine what is racist against blacks.

Wow, this is the best example I've ever seen of the liberal idea that "self-interest" and "good" are completely at odds with each other. Ayn Rand would have a field day.

OT (I need my own blog!)

Great article by Jonah Goldberg:
Are Arabs Really that Stupid?

The money quote...

One handy statistic: If you subtract oil, the total exports of the Arab world — i.e., the 500 million people comprising all of North Africa and the Middle East, minus Israel — amount to less than those of Finland: a country with one fiftieth the population.

...priceless!

#191 Piglet -

Interesting point. That would explain the head injuries in the pictures.

What shows the quality of his rantings is when Sutherland claims 'Jack Rich emailed his assent to this analysis: "Yeah, you've got it exactly right: this poor dupe sacrificed her life so that her poseur profs back home might preen for the cameras."' when in fact that was posted by another person. Even if you look at the comments he badmouthed they are taken out of context and at most 10% of the whole post.

#198: Not that I actually believe in ANY sort of collective guilt, but it's amazing that the ethnic group which is descended from the Romans who sentenced him to death, and actually nailed him to the cross, has gotten absolutely no blame for the past 2000 years.

Frank, you're my hero. :-) I've been arguing the same thing since school, when to be fair no one taught me the line that it must have been Jews who killed Christ, ie. another Jew, doh, in a country of Jews, double doh, or I would have flipped. But when I read somewhere about the what's it called, Vatican Council II, which officially said something to the effect of asking forgiveness to Jews for blaming them for the killing of Christ (formal, mind you, formal excuses - the depth of anti-semitism in the vatican... I understand now more and more) - well I was like, whaaat? I didn't even know they actually did blame Jews before! like, til the 1960's! I mean you get a Roman army capture the guy, a Roman governor sentencing him to death, a Roman squadron (pre-fascist?) nailing him and all, and it's the fault of a Jew? hello? That contributed immensely to my high esteem of the Roman Church, no doubt....

(and I am Italian, eh...)

#186: I am not so certain that there are no REAL antisemites at al-Ghardiyan as you are, but I agree with you that the prime mover is fanatical anti-Americanism by proxy.
I would also add fanatical antireligiosity as a motive in the case of some contributors.
And you're right on the money about the Euro-Left being largely pro-Israel until the late 1960s. Partly it's Israel working its way up from underdog to regional top dog (putting them on the wrong side of "victimocrats" ;-)), partly its gradual abandoning of socialism, partly the generational turnover phenomenon of old-school social democrats (generally sympathetic to Israel) being replaced by "new left" types (brainwashed with all the wrong "third worldist" claptrap),... and indeed, Israel developing ever tighter ties with the USA. (In the early years, Ben-Gurion tried to keep up an appearance of neutrality in the Cold War --- even though he always loathed Marxism and had Israel's far-left parties placed under Shin Bet surveillance --- but as the Soviet Union openly took the side of the Arabs this position became untenable.)

Ironically, Israel has the *French* (specifically De Gaulle) to "thank" for its US ties. In pre-De Gaulle days, Israel and the French government were *very* thick with each other (Shimon Peres, then the young director-general of the Defense Ministry, is a lifelong Francophile and got on famously with them), and e.g. the Israel Air Force flew Vautours, Ouragans, Mysteres, and Mirages. When De Gaulle embargoed all weapons shipments (including the famous torpedo boats of Cherbourg which Irsael had already paid for), it became clear to some Israeli politicians that France's extensive vested interests in the Arab world precluded things ever becoming the same again. At that stage, Israel started seeking ever closer ties with Washington and found a receptive ear there. Much of this was the doing of Yitzchak Rabin (then ambassador to Washington).

#199: exactly, except there's no such thing as "liberal" European. It's either leftist, or not.

I WAS QUOTED IN AL-GUARDIAN!!!!!!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!

Oh Baby, this made my day.

Alex, you're just full of juicy things to say, aren't you?

I don't know about scattering them to the wind. It seems as if American Jews for one made out quite nicely well before Israel's existence.

Before Israel's existence and American Jew couldn't get into a Medical school, for example. There were quotas in the best schools. There were other kinds of discrimination, some more genteel, some less so.

No, I'm not saying cause and effect. Obviously it wasn't the creation of Israel that caused the opening of closed doors for Jews in America, it was basic progress in America. The same sort of progress that opened doors for blacks and women.

But the point is that even in free America there was a time when Jews were not masters of their own destiny. Perhaps even in free America there will be a time once again when Jews are not masters of their destiny. There is one country in the world where Jews make the rules, and following a century when 2/3rd of our number were murdered that's a good and necessary thing. "Never again" is more than just a slogan when the Jewish people have sovereignty and territory. Without those things, who is to say "Never again"? We Jews and which army could stop it?

Despite desparate attempts from antisemites to wrest control of Jewish destiny out of Jewish hands, we shall prevail.

J (#210),

How I envy you. :-)

I have been blocked from the web-petition to investigate the "tragic death of Rachel Corrie". It seems the only comments they will entertain are from people that dont know or want to know the truth. My post? I only posted a link to the flag burning picture under the heading "the truth about Corrie" Cover-up!! Cover-up!! I call for an investigation of the tragic coverup of the facts about this p.o.s. It is kinda ironic when you look at the signature pages they are loaded up with "message voided" Gee they must be blocking and voiding a bunch of us. What happened to freedom of speech?
Oh well, since I cant get in there anymore, please people, take up the torch.
[Link: www.petitiononline.com...]

#207 Zaza -

Italian? I thought you were Arab or Jewish based on Bliar Farce of One's in-depth analysis. :)

But seriously, you would have loved this scene in "The Cemetery Club" - a Jewish woman was getting married to an Italian man. She was taking a long time to come downstairs, fussing with her gown, etc. The wedding planner came up, in exasperation, and exclaimed:

"While you're up here [fussing around, etc.], I've got 200 people downstairs arguing about 'who crucified Christ?'!"

#133 PaganInfidel:

Idiot: Mr. President, please say something so that the parents of Rachel Corrie can rest!

"GWB": Mr. and Mrs. Corrie, please take two Xanax and call me in the morning.

#213
hopefully this wont get banned, this is what I wrote to those idiots:

Of cource everyone doesn't give a damn about Abbygalie Litle age 14, an american non jew, whose bus was blown up by a palistinian suicide bomber 2 weeks before this confused girl committed her own suicide act, luckly she did not do it with bombs. Where is the investigation for Abigail Litle? The palis are not innocent nor are for protecting with your life as a human shield. For shame on this site.

#90: New York is my home town, you turd. And it doesn't need more assholes crowing about his fantasies of "dozens" of imminent terror attacks -- there are enough Muslims around the world doing that already.

Stay the hell in France.

#148 SecHumanist
Sorry to break it to you, but that letter was a forgery. The sentiments match his statements, but the letter itself is not his.

It appears you're correct. The sentiments are real but the words are not.

While I'm here, in reference to #168 SecHumanist

I can tell you most of the people I've asked about it said they loved the country under the Shah, but were happy enough to leave once the revolution took place, but I'll do a little more research on it.

I've been reading the book Blood and Oil: Inside the Shah's Iran and it's a very interesting read told by someone whose family held positions of power and privelege from the time before oil was discovered in Iran to the fall of the Shah. It is clearly the perspective of the upper classes, but it does offer a lot of insight into the culture and politics of pre-Khomeini Iran.

It might interest you.

OK, it is time for the facts, i am a jew and am sick of the zionist lies that need to be exposed:

There were no jews living in Palestine prior to 1948. The Ottoman census of 1844 that states Jews are a majority in Jerusalem is just a lie as us jews had infultrated the Ottoman empire long before that.

We love drinking arab blood for purim, it is so much sweeter than christian blood which has that bitter aftertaste.

We control the media which is why you never see anti-israeli material in the media like the Guardian.

We control the American administration; ever see Sharon and Cheney in the same room together, no, that is because they are the same people

It is a jewish army sitting in Jenin that is the real cause of arab economic, technologic and political stagnation. . .cant tell you how we do that one though.

There where no jewish refugees from arab nations, those pictures of 100,000s fleeing the arab world in the late 40s was created in Hollywood (which we own too).

I could go on and on but i know the mossad is already tracking this blog, the international zionist hand will soon reach me. . .free yourselves while you still can.

#43

I read as much of that crap as I could.

These people are a world-wide joke.

Alex #132,

It seems as if American Jews for one made out quite nicely well before Israel's existence.

Have you seen Peck in Gentleman's Agreement? Appropriately dated to 1948, this movie should address your belief that Jews, pre-1948, were well treated.

SecHumanist #162,

but there are a few differences because of the army service as far as I know (no way around that, having Arabs fight Arabs for Israel isn't practical).

Actually, some of the best trackers in the IDF are Druze. They are so hated by the Arafatistanis, partly because of their role in the IDF and partly because of their religion, that they know they will be next up against the wall if the Arafatistanis win their genocidal war.

liberalhawk #186,

A while ago, Al-Guardian had a discussion about whether it was antisemitic. I contributed to it by telling the editors that the exclusive focus of their human interest stories being of Arafatistanis (I called them palestinians at the time) was one indicator. Their editorial contributions being almost universally from the anti-Israeli side of the spectrum was another. They treat the two sides completely differently: Israelis are demonized, Arafatistanis are lionized.

You say that Jews are the best judges of what does or does not constitute anti-Semitism...By your logic, blacks would be the best qualified to determine what is racist against blacks.

Yes, that's correct. Not one black person (as in your faulty example using known liar Al Sharpton), but a cross-section of blacks, as you stated in the above comparison.

So it is with Jewish people.

Who better to judge such a thing?

#218 Craig
Thanks for the link! I will check out that book (I'm rather behind on my reading so it may take a while though :)

#221 Ariel
Yeah, I know about the Druze - they're awesome - no comparison to forcing Israeli Arabs to army service though.

Check this out. As if more evidence weren't needed, but look who the Guardian is referring to when they describe "Anti-Semitism."

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

And then we have to deal with morons coming in and arguing that Aras are Semites too and trying to ignore the genealogy of the term... you'd have to be deluded to argue this rag isn't anti-Jewish at its core.

SecHumanist #223,

Of course not. Just wanted to make sure you knew about the Druze. They're also a great talking point when people discuss the "racist" nature of Israel.

After all, how many Jews are in Islamic Jihad?

The Guardian = der Sturmer

It really is as simple as that. Their reports on Jenin were classics of eye-rolling, howling, anti-semitic insanity.

It is bad enough reading Robert Fisk's non-balanced guff in the Guardian, but this latest story about the Rachel Corrie photos is even worse. It is sheer bad journalism by the writer, and sheer bad editing.

Anyone who has followed the Rachel Corrie story must have realised she was a fanatic. The evidence is all over the web. Didn't the journalist or his editor check this story ? If not - why not ? Because it fitted in with the Guardian's constant anti-US bias ?

I am old enough to remember the days when the Manchester Guardian was required reading. Liberal, sure, but liberal in the honourable sense. It was a fine newspaper with fine journalists and editors.

Sad, sad, sad.

What Americans may not fully realise is that the Guardian these days depends heavily on adverts for public sector jobs, and jobs in the media like the BBC. So a whole generation of Brits is educated and fed broadcast stories by Guardianistas. The Guardian may look like a joke these days, but its effects are deeply pernicious.

For Americans who want to know what the TRUE voice of Brit liberal humanity is really like, they should refer again to the address to his regiment given by Col Tim Collins of the Royal Irish. Just do a Google search and read again his fine words. And watch the fine and humane deeds of the men he leads in South Iraq. Tim Collins represents the true conscience of Britain, not the self-preening Guardian/BBC clowns.

::cries:: ISM is coming to my school Wednesday.

#211

You oppose Zionism on the grounds that the Jews are only a religious community. This is simply false.

Perhaps you might agree if you had non-Jewish blood relations (as I have.) Does my partial-Jewish heritage trump theirs? The blended, non-discrete nature of ethnography [a pseudoscience] doesn't in my opinion mesh well with coherent notions of either Judaism or statehood.

The sooner Jews like the fools who post hear are wiped off the earth the better. And a shame people who post can't even work out who Robert Fisk writes for. Thank god there are courageous people such as Robert Fisk to write about what the Israeli government (not all Jews) do to the Palestinians. It is shameful and people, not just Jews and Israelis, should hang their heads in shame. The sooner a realistic Palestinian state is declared with land that is livable, and not just the garbage they were offered under Barak, the sooner we will all be able to sleep better at night. Not that the Israelis seem intent on ever letting Palestinians sleep, well, not until they are all dead.

And have any of you ever looked at the definition of a semite? Obviously not, as Arabs are as entitled to be called Semites as Jewish people.

Thank god there are papers like The Guardian and The Independent to tell us the genocide the Israelis are perpetrating on the Palestinians.

Alex, ur comparing israel with some dream like utopian vision. There are no countries that I know of, that meet ur standards, except maybe some scandinavian countries who are homogenous and dont have any outside problems to deal with.
-I live in the detroit area, the most segregated area in America, whose ghettos dont compare to anything u will see in Israel. My white majority school is ten times better then anything in the majorty black areas. Ask the blacks here if they feel they are treated unequally.
-I was born in a different country, but since my father is Amerian, I too automatically get american citizenship. Are americans chauvinists? do they think my blood is better then other immigrants' blood? And its not like Americans treat all immigrants equally. Its much easier to get citizenship if ur from england then poland. There is a polish woman I know in europe who has been trying to get a visa just to visit the united states for about ten years now.
_ I get school off for christmas and easter, and the official day of rest here is sunday. I can't buy alchohol on sundays, and gays can't get married. These things arent what I would call religion neutral.
Israel has a lot of problems, and a lot of moral issues it needs to deal with, but not more than other countries. And considering it faces a real existential threat that few countries face, its incredible the liberties it gives to people. Like America, it will go through democratic problems to change these problems, but because they are there doesn't mean it shouldnt exist. If israel could be secular and still have a jewish majority so that jews could have a place where they made there own rules and didnt have to depend on host countries, then maybe they would be more secular, and maybe when the problems with its neighbors goes away, maybe it will have more time to worry about these face these questions. But right now they are just a luxury to countries that have nothing to worry about but themselves. For now the goal of israel is to protect jews beucase no one else will.
also, ur probably thinking, well jews shouldn't set themselves apart and just blend into the back ground, and then they wont need a country to save them. Well history points in a very different direction. And my family wasnt lucky enough to be in America before israel, so they were gassed like the rest of european jewry. Ur, everybody is the same philosophy is nice, but doesnt work. Israel is just the most practical way to deal with the lessons of history.

#70: Tyrone

"It has usually been rightists who have voiced frustration with "political correctness" for using accusations of racism to silence alternative views. Now, the pro-Israeli side is establishing a political correctness of its own."

As pro-Israel as I am, I do think my side must guard against this coming true. Nonetheless, the antisemitism in "effect" if not "intent" of bizarrely obsessed anti-Israel critics must be combatted. Al-Guardian and FiskMonbiotChomsky are the paragons of this mindset and I can assure you that whatever unlikely good intentions they had long ago melted away.

On distinguishing between valid criticism of Israel and antisemitism without indulging McCarthyite excess, please refer to an essay on my blog discussing a cartoon cited here at LGF that depicted Sharon eating Palestinian babies:

On Criticism and Antisemitism

Hopefully, it will give you an idea why this admittedly hazy science is important.

"The Israeli-Palestinian issue receives attention out of proportion to its importance among both pro- and anti-Israeli viewpoints. A car bombing in Tel Aviv will receive loads more coverage than one in Gujarat or Bogota. This is simply because of the significance of the region in three major faiths."

I disagree that this is really what it's about. It could be a factor, but what explains the fact that the staunchest and longest term foes of Israel and Zionism have been far-leftists? Socialists of all stripes -- including Jews like Marx and Chomsky -- are united in their strong rejection of all religion. Therefore it does not follow that their Ahabian obsession with Israel is borne of religious fervor, nostalgia or even latent cultural resonance.

Are you saying they are simply cynical enough to use Israel because of its symbolic strength among the opiated masses?

(Reading the bottom of the article) "Moral irresponsibility"? Hey kids! Moralism is back in, WHOO HOO!

What crap John-Paul Pagano, the Guardian and other newspapers and the writers such as Fisk, Monbiot and Chomsky are not anti-Jew, anti-Semetic, although to be anti-semetic one must be anti-Arab and anti-Jew. They are anti-injustice. They want justice. Of course you can't see that because you don't see the rights of the Palestinians, and maybe Arabs in general. to exist. And if you can't see why many Palestinians have so much hate towards Israel, you are blind.

Israel did not like it when others denied Israelis the right to a home land. Do Israelis really believe that since they have suffered injustices then it's OK to perpetrate these injustices onto others?

And to label the above writers as anti-Israel is bollocks. They all criticise Palestine and the Arab states. But then, the fanatics never forward on these articles for you to read, as it's obvious most of you never even look at the web sites regularly, maybe at all, to see all or most of the stories.

David

David Goldstein (my ass) (#230)

It's always the nastiest, most anti-Semitic assholes that post with cliché Jewish monikers. Nobody is impressed. Really. Where are you posting from, Gaza?

And have any of you ever looked at the definition of a semite? Obviously not, as Arabs are as entitled to be called Semites as Jewish people.

So predictable. All you Jew-haters use it. Nice try, but we've seen it all before. Boring, but let's haul out the definition of anti-Semite, shall we, just for the hell of it.

One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews

#234:

Your ignorance is blinding. I need Ariel and SecHumanist in here to burst your little bubble for you.

Oh, and give it up with the "Arabs are semites too" bullshit. Do you also deny that the Holocaust ever happened?

"to be anti-semetic one must be anti-Arab and anti-Jew"

You are ignorant at best, and willfully dishonest at worse. It is true that both Arabs and Jews are Semites. But the term "anti-Semitic" was invented by a German Jew-hater, to mean "being against Jewish people." It is not the Jews' fault they are stuck with that word.

Then you warp its meaning in order to delegitimize any claims of anti-Semitism--because almost everyone who hates Jews likes Arabs. You stuck-up bastard leftists act like only you are privy to secret information like the true meaning of "anti-Semite" but in fact you are just corrupters of language and anti-anti-racist reactionaries (because racism against Jews is now politically correct).

#236 zulubaby
You rang? What's going on here.. oh no .. you fed it?! I saw Mohammed's, er Mr. Goldstein's, post, there wasn't an ounce of rational thought in the post so I just ignored it. But I guess since you've gone and fed the jew-hata, I might as well continue :-)

First, for the kindergarten argument that Arabs are Semites and thus can't be anti-Semitic, you can find the etymology and usage of the term here.

The word was coined in Germany in 1873 by Wilhelm Marr as a more euphonious way of saying "Judenhass" (Jew-hatred). This name was chosen because Marr and others believed in a now discredited theory that held that certain racial groups and linguistic groups coincide.

...

The only Semitic people found in significant numbers in Germany at the time the word was coined were Jews, and because of that, anti-Semitism was considered a convenient way to name the hatred of Jews without reminding one of either hatred or Jews. It was also considered to be a more "scientific" way of describing Jew-hatred; at the time racial and religious prejudice against many groups was commonly held to have a scientific basis.

...

Since the middle of the twentieth century, some have argued that since Arabs speak a Semitic language, they by definition cannot be "anti-Semitic". Similarly, some writers and speakers have used "anti-Semitism" to mean hatred of either Jews or Arabs, considering both groups as "Semites". This controversial usage is highly nonstandard. Those who use it have been accused of creating a semantic dispute for propaganda purposes.

Look at post #224 - seems the general consensus on al-Guardian matches the "creating a semantic dispute for propaganda purposes" - there are many such articles to back that up. That they (the Guardian) occasionally publish a centrist or less ultra-leftist piece does not make up for the propaganda pieces they publish regularly- such as the one discussed here.

As for the rest of your unintelligible rant, I suggest laying off the crank for a little while – you may want to focus your attention on getting your Arab brethren back home (original home, I'm assuming you live in London now) simply to recognize Israel's fundamental right to exist.

Here's a little more for you:

The argument is sometimes put forward that the Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic because they themselves are Semites. Such a statement is self-evidently absurd, and the argument that supports it is doubly flawed. First, the term "Semite" has no meaning as applied to groups as heterogeneous as the Arabs or the Jews, and indeed it could be argued that the use of such terms is in itself a sign of racism and certainly of either ignorance or bad faith. Second, anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews, and is therefore available to Arabs as to other people as an option should they choose it.

A great deal of modern writing about Jews, in the Arab lands as in other parts of the Islamic world, might suggest that many have indeed chosen this option.

- Bernard Lewis Semites and Anti-Semites p. 117 (emphasis added)

zulubaby,

I also saw David Goldstein's post. But it was so laughably inept that I couldn't really be bothered to answer it.

Thank G-d you guys showed up :-) What a creep! Hopefully he's gone away.

I like the trolls better when they're fake rabbis. More fun to shoot down.

#234 Da'ud Zahab-stein:

Could you diagram the first sentence of your post?

#242 - it's like that skit in SNL a few years back, with the fake Amish.

Frank IMC (#243)

Da'ud Zahab-stein:

Could you diagram the first sentence of your post?

LOL! Really!

So Ariel, my response is so lughably inept you couldn't be bothered to respond, but you did! And greater scholars than you and zulubaby have included Araqs in the definition of what is a Semite.

And just think, if Israel had the guts to withdraw to the UN resolution from 1967, which has never been adhered to, there would be no country or person in the world that could justify there dislike or hatred of Israel. So instead Israel builds settlement upon settlement, that are ALL illegal on Palestinian land. You then get the absurd situation where it costs GBP27 000 per month to pay for 6 guards to guard one settler who lives somewhere isolated.

And what country has consistently violated and ignored UN resolutions and has weapons of mass destruction? Guess who... it's... ISRAEL. So, it should be Israel this idiotic coalition is invading. At least this invasion would not be illegal.

And zulubaby thinks I'm Arab? Seems you can't cope with someone with a Jewish name being critical of Israel. No wonder journalists like Fisk ONLY get hate mail and death threats from those supporting the Israeli cause.

So why doesn't Israel give up on the genocide with Palestine and make peace? Why do Israelis elect a war criminal as their leader? What sort of civilised nation is this.

As for where I'm from, what does it matter. You have my name.

And I don't hate Jews. I've had a great affair with a Jewish chick! I have Jewish friends. I do hate Israel as a nation. As the French diplomat referred to Israel as 'that shitty little nation'. So true. I've not ever criticised Jews.

So for those of you in Israel, have a shitty little life as no tourists come, trade becomes all but impossible and your situation becomes miserable. It couldn't happen to a nicer country!

Love and kisses!
David

So Ariel, my response is so lughably inept you couldn't be bothered to respond, but you did! And greater scholars than you and zulubaby have included Araqs in the definition of what is a Semite.

And just think, if Israel had the guts to withdraw to the UN resolution from 1967, which has never been adhered to, there would be no country or person in the world that could justify there dislike or hatred of Israel. So instead Israel builds settlement upon settlement, that are ALL illegal on Palestinian land. You then get the absurd situation where it costs GBP27 000 per month to pay for 6 guards to guard one settler who lives somewhere isolated.

And what country has consistently violated and ignored UN resolutions and has weapons of mass destruction? Guess who... it's... ISRAEL. So, it should be Israel this idiotic coalition is invading. At least this invasion would not be illegal.

And zulubaby thinks I'm Arab? Seems you can't cope with someone with a Jewish name being critical of Israel. No wonder journalists like Fisk ONLY get hate mail and death threats from those supporting the Israeli cause.

So why doesn't Israel give up on the genocide with Palestine and make peace? Why do Israelis elect a war criminal as their leader? What sort of civilised nation is this.

As for where I'm from, what does it matter. You have my name.

And I don't hate Jews. I've had a great affair with a Jewish chick! I have Jewish friends. I do hate Israel as a nation. As the French diplomat referred to Israel as 'that shitty little nation'. So true. I've not ever criticised Jews.

So for those of you in Israel, have a shitty little life as no tourists come, trade becomes all but impossible and your situation becomes miserable. It couldn't happen to a nicer country!

Love and kisses!
David

And just think, if Israel had the guts to withdraw to the UN resolution from 1967, which has never been adhered to, there would be no country or person in the world that could justify there dislike or hatred of Israel

Great point! I think everybody longs for those peaceful days when Arabs kept trying to kill every last Jew, you know like in '48, '56, '67 - and all those peaceful riots before there was a Jewish state, you know, like in 1929 in Hebron. Ahh.. such peaceful times - and nobody hated Jews! All that talk of killing every last Jew was that famous Arab wit. Aww.. you genocidal maniacs make the cutest jokes! Those comical parades in Cairo exalting in the impending genocide - fun and games!

But I think the bigger issue is that you have access to Fisk's e-mail account- that's sweet! Maybe you could answer a question for me - does he get those penis enlargement spam e-mails? I would hate to think that Fisk could become an even bigger dick.

Da'ud Zahab-stein (# 245 & #246)

Two words: Fuck off.

Some more words: I don't care whether you're an Arab, a Jew, or a hermaphrodite, I think you're human garbage. You have a poisonous mind and an ugly soul.

I'm overjoyed to hear that a "Jewish chick" had an affair with a despicable individual like you. Did she realize what a nasty anti-Semite you are? Fisk gets hate mail because he's a liar and an anti-Semite. Also, he's an asshole. No wonder you like him, he's your kinda guy.

So Ariel, my response is so lughably inept you couldn't be bothered to respond, but you did!

You seemed so thrilled!!! that Ariel responded, but actually, he was responding to me, not you. Poor thing. By the way, your post sucks, both of them.

SecHumanist (#247)

But I think the bigger issue is that you have access to Fisk's e-mail account- that's sweet! Maybe you could answer a question for me - does he get those penis enlargement spam e-mails? I would hate to think that Fisk could become an even bigger dick.

LOL!

(Also, I forgot to hat tip Frank IMC for the "Da'ud Zahab-stein" :-)

"Why do Israelis elect a war criminal as their leader?"

I think he was trying to say, why do the people calling themselves palestinians worship a terrorist leader, have had another terrorist leader as their representative, and then when they're tired of him because he's gotten them in deeper shit than before, they go for someone who denies the Holocaust?

but in some parallel universe, it all came out as the fault of Jewwws.

#248 zulubaby

Huh. I think you should step out of Judaism and study Zen for a while. You're getting way too angry over this kind of troll. Remember, that's what it wants.

How do you really punish a masochist?

#13:

You need to re-read this - and carefully. The guy does NOT deny the holocaust - he simply accuses the Israelis of using it as a political bludgeon.

You know the line there is really thin, isn't it. Especially when you claim the numbers are exaggerated, there were no gas chambers, etc. etc. Those who deny the Holocaust do not deny it ever existed at all, or that Jews weren't being killed by the nazis, they can't deny the obvious, so they go for "hmm but it wasn't that big of a deal".

And oh, wow, what a political bludgeon it turned out to be, wooo, what amazing PR it got Israelis!

Come on. He's saying "it wasn't that big of a deal" because he doesn't think Israel should have been created after it, period. The line of thought is really soo clear there, it takes a lot more than optimism to believe this guy should be accepted grudgingly with "ok doesn't love Israel but perhaps he's pragmatic enough".

What about his links to Hamas?

ooops - previous post belongs in another thread (the abu mazen one) - SORRY! don't know why this keeps happening to meee...

Caton (#251)

I have great affection for you, but please don't ever think that you have the right to tell me to step away from Judaism. You just insulted me and I don't appreciate it. If you want to discuss this further, you have my e-mail address.

Frank says:

There is no hell. There is only France.

(It just happened to come up on this page, and it's bloody funny).

#254 zulubaby

Please check your email. If I offended you, I'm sorry -- it wasn't intentional.

Caton (#256)

Got it, thanks :-)

i was linked to this article from another site where i regularly debate topics like israel/palestine with people from many nations, including israel. i would have to say i have never seen such utterly racist commentary as i have seen here.

you lot throw around 'anti-semetic' and then use rather crude anti-arab or anti-palestinian slurs. the double standard you hold yourselves to is breathtaking. are you even aware of your own blatant racism?

certainly i would never support the morally repugnant actions of palestinian terrorists, but on the other hand the palestinian people have certainly been pushed aside and wronged. the apartheid they suffer under breeds such terrorism. they truly suffer between the extremists on both sides.

the israelis should not be above reproach because they have suffered in the past. just like any governement, we should be able to question their policies and disagree with them. terrorism was certainly part of the early zionist movements conflict with the arabs, and i find questionable the current quiet expansion of settlements.

in short, like many people, i see that both sides have suffered injustices and im not blind to eithers pain. i dont feel the need to divide the world into good and bad guys so that i can feel better about the world and that i am on the side of 'right' and morality.

the anti-semetic label is a smokescreen. its a cheap way of discrediting your opponents. accept that israel is a nation and that like any other nation its actions can be questioned.

of course you could just call me an anti-semite - that would fit in well with your cosy black/white world view.

Maggots Ate My Brain!

Anyone who actually believes this garbage would likely improve the gene pool if the same type of unfortunate accident that befell Rachel were to reoccur...

"The internationalists stood in the path of the bulldozer and were physically pushed with the shovel backwards, taking shelter in a house," she wrote. "The bulldozer then proceeded on its course, demolishing one side of the house with the Internationals inside. The driver then dropped a sound grenade out of the cab of the bulldozer, and continued to demolish the house, at which point the activists were able to escape, amid gunfire from the tank."

That quote is from an email that Rachel Corrie sent to her commie pinko friends on 3/14, according to this bastion of unbiased reporting:

Maggots Ate My Brain! (Part II)

But let's not stop there! Let the truth be known! Some people know What Really Happened!

(Please note that my final link contains graphic Photoshop-style gruesome sensationalist baloney.)

Maggots Ate My Brain (The Final Chapter)

I really do love the Josef Mengele-style stitch job. I have to wonder, given the post-mortem situation, why he didn't just use superglue.

And I've been called insensitive.

Oh dear, now the same thing that happens with the reporters who write on Middle Eastern issues that dare criticise Israel are happening to me. SecHumanist can’t cope with the possibility that Fisk can be right, and thinks I must know him personally, I guess. No, I just read a wide range of sources, and not so blinkered like you.

Have you ever seen a map of the Israeli settlements in Palestine? No wonder there is hate from Palestinians to Israel. If another country was to put settlements in my country like Israel does to Palestine, I would have massive resentment too.

Zulubaby – swearing like that, didn’t your mother ever teach you to speak nicely? Oh dear, we do get venomous don’t me. Is this the venom that comes from Sharon the war criminal as well when he thinks of the Palestinians, or Arabs in general.

Oh, and yes, Arafat is very problematic as leader, but then, the demonising of Arafat by Israel only strengthens his position, much in the same way as is happening in Iraq now.

And you seem to be happy to misrepresent me Zaza. It’s not Jews I’m criticising, it’s Israel. Maybe you don’t even realise there are Israelis who hate their government.

And this denial of the holocaust. I never uttered anything about denying the holocaust. If you must know, I do find the holocaust horrific, and I won’t ever doubt it happened, or how horrific it was. But it’s no excuse to perpetrate a holocaust on those you disagree with.

And I don’t deny Israel the right to exist. It’s a sovereign nation just as much as any other. But it’s borders should be those that were outlined in the UN resolution from way back in 1967.

As for France, France is one of the most wonderful nations in the world, period. It’s the most visited nation in the world for a very good reason, and something that Israel will never be.

As for nethead, I agree with him/her totally.

As for really grumpy, I doubt there is an ounce or gram of knowledge in your body about Communism or Socialism. And don’t forget, Marx and Engels were Jews!

As for Rachel Corrie, she is a courageous woman that deserves our respect. And if she’d stood up to the Palestinian government begging for peace, she would be likewise deserving of our respect.

Israel is the one with the power in this dispute/war/whatever with Palestine, and they have the power to bring peace.

So for all you bellyaching Jews, it’s a shame you are so pro-Israeli and think that anybody who dares to criticise the country is an anti-Semite. How ludicrous. Does that mean anyone who criticizes the USA is anti-American? Seems Jews have huge chips on their shoulders.

David

"David Goldstein" wrote:

So for all you bellyaching Jews...

What's your real name, you filthy liar? People like you disgust me. You pretend to be something you're not, to lend bogus credence to your hatred and sickness. You are one foul creature. How do you sleep at night, consumed by vile racism, jealousy, and dishonesty?

Da'ud Zahab-stein:

My mother doesn't like the way I swear, but it's too late for her to do anything about it. I'm sure she wouldn't mind though if she read the hateful crap that you wrote. You don't deserve anything but that kind of response. My post #248 remains true. I haven't changed my mind.

Get out of here. You're a waste of time. Oh, and get help soon. You seem a little, um..., sick.

Charles,

Has it been X'd yet?

Mohammed,

I've taken your words to heart. I've studied up extensively, checked out electronicintifada, checked out some of the statements from Palestinian, Syrian, Saudi Arabian, and Iraqi officials...

I was shocked! Shocked I tell you. This whole time, I had never known that Palestinians had been subjected to so many 'genocides'! I was going to write my congressman about it, but I guess it's too late; all the Palestinian Arabs seem to be dead what with all those 'genocides.' Oh well, goodbye to that fake categorization of Arabs!

Mohammed, trust me, Israel is the least of your people's worries. Let us know when your society wakes up and realizes the decayed state in which their religion, society, and political structures have become. Let us know when women are treated as equal citizens, when information is no longer restricted by authoritarian regimes, when science becomes more important than religion in schools, when you stop relying on family, ethnic, and clan identities for social and economic relations, when you enact and enforce secular law, when you encourage independent thought rather than encouraging the mindless repetition of baseless falsehoods through your government controlled media and hateful religion's sermons, when you stop depending on a 1500 year old set of rules to govern the every aspect of your life.

I understand where you're coming from, puberty can be hard sometimes, but spare us your pre-pubescent ramblings on matters beyond your comprehension.

When your pathetic excuse for a civilization gets its act together, let us know, we'll be there to help out, but until then, all the whining and the seething in the world isn't going to help.

I guess now that even the White House is disgusted with the illegal settlements in Palestine, this still won't mean any rationality will come to argument about even some rights for Palestinians. But then, you will believe this is all a conspiracy.

"Ariel Sharon has brushed aside an appeal by the White House to stop an unprecedented move by Jewish settlers into a Palestinian district of Jersualem."

And tut tut Charles, calling me a "filthy liar"... now now... maybe you should look in the mirror about the lies you tell about Palestine and the rights of Arabs everywhere. How do you mob ever expect peace with attitudes like these???

And Zulubaby can't help but being nasty. Oh, poor you... at least I use my name and don't hide like others here do.

As for SecHumanist, you aint very humanitarian... and saying "Israel is the least of your people's worries", how would you know who my people are???

And wow, denigrating people on their beliefs, just because they are different to yours??? We could choose plenty to criticize Israel for, but hey, I wouldn't stoop so low. And going by your racist observations, every indigenous society in the world is backwards and not worth contemplating. Oh dear... look who has backwards attitudes now.

David

#267 Mahmud

What exactly is your goal here? Pissing people off?

Da'ud Zahab-stein (#267)

zzzzzzzzzzz

You're mistaking me for someone who gives a crap about what you think. Oh, and where's this "Palestine" you speak of? Know something we don't? Don't bother answering, just leave already.

Just for Mr. umm Goldschlagger

I used this for a Fark Photoshop contest but the contents seem to speak for you as well - the truth hurts huh? Pay careful attention to the Never Never Land flag.

Still seems people here are incapable of using their names. Oh well. So how do I know who you are?

As for zulubaby, whatever that is, you obviously do care what I think.

And Palestine is that land, soon to be a nation, and recognised by many as the home of the Palestinians, except the Israelis and the Americans say no, while Europe, the civilised part of the world, pushes ahead for the Palestine to be a country in its own right, and free of the genocide perpetrated on them by the Israelis.

And my goal is to speak the truth.

And a quote regarding another illegal settlement in Palestine:
"Eyal Hareuveni, director of the Jerusalem branch of Peace Now, said: "This is a settler group, extremists who want to transfer the Arabs [out of their homeland].

"This is only a recipe for friction and violence.""

The sooner Israel gets out of Palestine and withdraws to the boundaries as set down in the UN resolution in 1967, the sooner Israel will be able to live in peace.

It's simple really. But when Israelis elect a war criminal who conducts genocide on people while he was in the army, what hope can there be for peace, and one must think the majority of Israelis love fearing for their lives from the latest suicide bomber. And who can blame the suicide bombers - it's often the only weapons they have against the tanks destroying their livelihoods, and lives.

DG

And curious that I couldn't post earlier from my normal computer. Does this mean I'm being censored from this discussion. Oh well, if this is the case, nothing like putting on the blinkers and avoiding reality, claiming you're the victim and committing genocide on others just because it was perpetrated on you.

It's people such as those who are on this discussion who make me wish Israel did cease to exist. But as was shown in my previous post, there are great Israelis who know the only answer is a just peace for both Israel and Palestine, something that has never

Oh wow this thread is still alive, and resurrected by this wonderful statement, no less: "It's people such as those who are on this discussion who make me wish Israel did cease to exist". You know what, DG or whoever you are, YOU can make Israel go away. Israel will cease to exist instantly, if you really want it. Its soo easy. Just obsess about something else. Visualise, visualise, breathe in, breathe out, and voilà, Israel is gone. Your hatred is gone. Your obsession is gone. You... will... be... free!!

Try it. Meditational jihad, if you like. It's so much more relaxing than the real thing.

Da'ud Zahab-stein (#271)

Still seems people here are incapable of using their names. Oh well. So how do I know who you are?

That's the 700th time you've brought up the name thing. If you knew my real name would you love me more than you do now? Because I think I'm falling for you...I can't resist big brave men like you who use their real names on anonymous websites. I find it irresistible...

Now some would sneer at you for not providing your e-mail address. We all have our standards you see.

As for zulubaby, whatever that is, you obviously do care what I think.

No my sweet little love-bug, I really don't. In fact the first two sentences of your post is as far as I got. From past experience I can safely assume that the rest of it is total shit. Oh the joys of scrolling!