More shock and awe.

What a wonderful idea.

Bravo!

Just stating what should be obvious to all.

He didn't say anything about Africa. I wonder how long it will take for him to be branded as a racist for not considering them. Even so, what country would be suitible for such a position?

I'm very, very, very, glad that this idea was brought out into the open. Let French history record Chirac as being the man who fucked France.

#3,

India. Qualifications: democracy and a population of over a billion.

Go Johnny go!

As a Manhattan resident, I would love to see the useless UN moved out of NYC to Geneva, perhaps, and turn the property into a park with a Memorial to the fallen soldiers of the Coalition.

#5,

I was alluding to the absence of mentioning a country in Africa, not questioning the validity of his suggestions

#8,

Sorry, I glossed over your post. Anyway, India would be a stronger candidate for permanent seat then France as it would reflect the reality of the world today as opposed to the world of 1946.

As much as I'd like to see this happen, (and would thoroughly enjoy the French gnashing and whining as their freshly minted status as Totally Irrelevent was driven home) undoudtedly, such a change in the Security Council make up would require a Resolution, and, as we know France has a veto.

Maybe, this just an opening shot across the bow of the UN.

"Not open to change fellas? We'll just set up our parallel organisation over here. No. No, this doesn't mean the UN has to go, we're just not going to be sending any more delegates or dues."

Very sensible suggestion from Mr. Howard.

Speaking of France, if they send troops to Iraq, as suggested in this BBC story,

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

will the US armed forces open fire when they land?

Completely OT (sorry): POSSIBLE MICHAEL MOORE DINNER INVITE UPSETS WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS
"Fresh off his Bush-bashing speech at last month's Academy Awards, DirectorActivist Michael Moore may soon find his way in to the same room as President Bush -- at this year's White House Correspondents Dinner!"

#11

Won't they surrender first?

Can we just say now that Mr. Howard is one of the world's great leaders, albeit little acknowledged? Mr. Howard is one of the straight-arrow, tell-it-like-it-is politicians, a great friend of freedom and staunch ally of the US. It's high-time we toss australia a bone, they have always been there with us when the shooting starts, 'nam, GW1, GW2, and this Yank thinks we should pay more attention to them, drink more aussie wine, eat more lamb, maybe tear down some of our ag subsidies and tariffs which harm them. GWB should invite Howard to Crawford for a few days, that would be a start.

I LOVE the Australians! I was just there this Fall, and (most) of them have a refreshing, no-bullshit attitude. The annoying people I met in Australia were German, left-wing British, and Californian. :)

Bravo Mr. Howard!!

Countries more qualified than France to be on the Security Council:

India, Japan, Israel (LOL), perhaps Brazil, Canada . . .

also,

Monaco, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein, Mongolia, Jamaica, LGF, Stuyvesant High School (a little left leaning, but still . . . ), NYPD, NYFD, The US Armed Forces, the editorial staff of the NY Post, etc., etc., etc. (ok, ok, those last few aren't countries; still , they're more powerful & more moral than France).

A better idea: let's move the UN Headquarters to Flint, Michigan, in salute to our friend Michael Moore; he wanted new jobs in Flint? Well, there ya go. Applebees will have to hire more waiters to account for the increased lunch crowd.

---
As a Manhattan resident, I would love to see the useless UN moved out of NYC to Geneva, perhaps, and turn the property into a park with a Memorial to the fallen soldiers of the Coalition.

# 16 Jehka

lol@LGF

I 2nd the motion.

z

It would be really a good idea to take away the seat from the french. Not because it's nowadays modern to do some french-bashing because they didn't want to be another poodle, but because there is really no reason why France should held a veto in the UN. It should give one veto for each continent. So one for the US, one for the whole Europe (the old and the new ;-)) one for Asia and one for Africa. One for the US and Australia. Each seat just valid when the membership fees are paid. That would be fair. And yes - the Un should move out of New York. Swiss would be a good place to have it at.

I like this Howard fellow. Good on ya, mate!

In addition, how can the security council EVER work when terrorist states, such as coughsyriacough, are invited to participate, as members? Isn't that like extending the jury pool to include prison inmates? I know I'm stating the obvious, but come on!

For me, the UN, and the SC will remain illegitimate as long democratic nations are forced to alter their foreign policies in order to accomodate totalitarian regimes, and their despots.

UFN

it's catching on....whooo-eeee

united free nations

just kidding!

His comments risk the ire of France before the first visit to Australia by President Jacques Chirac, who is due in the country in July.

I love it.

At last a world leader with some sense who's not afraid to risk "the ire of France" - whatever that is. What are they going to do other than wave their arms in the air and splutter worthless platitudes. Of course, they could have some pathetic street demonstrations and encourage their Muslims to beat up Aussies as well as Jews.
Also, debkafile reported the other day that France had offered political asylum to Iraqi ex-officials. If this is true, it should be treated as an act of war and they should get the same as Syria. Just give the country's Jews enough time to get out before the bomb hits.

Lets move the UN to Iraq.

"France was there only because it was a global power at the end of World War II, he said."

Some global power.

#11 Brenda.....

who are these French talking to.!!!!!!

European Affairs Minister Noelle Lenoir told French radio that the EU's role in Iraq may not be limited to humanitarian aid, and that "nothing has been excluded".

EU is going to storm inot Iraq and challange the USA.?

denial is not only a river in Egypt.....

#3 Jacod LaRow:

I can't think of an African country either prepared for or deserving of that kind of power. Africa is largely a hellhole of their own devising.

Which African country is the most modernized, anyway?

France was there only because it was a global power at the end of World War II, he said.

heh. That's a generous assessment, to say the least. I guess he's trying to be nice as he shows them to the door.

OT: All this talk about the french makes me wonder: What's the emoticon for a raspberry? ppffftt!

#14

Can we just say now that Mr. Howard is one of the world's great leaders, albeit little acknowledged? Mr. Howard is one of the straight-arrow, tell-it-like-it-is politicians, a great friend of freedom and staunch ally of the US.

Hear, hear!!

The Aussies don't pull punches.
I love it.
Wasn't it the Aussie ambassador to the UN who called the French vultures?

I think a new alignment of allies is in order with Australia at the top of the list.
They are at least willing to look evil in the face and do the right thing.
Old Europe has turned into a cesspool of gray areas where any depravity is considered normal behavior.

that is kinda funny

'the ire of france'

ewww, hey!! - put that thing away! geez!
.
.

France was there only because it was a global power at the end of World War II, he said.

France was made a permanent member of the Sec. Coun. not because it was a global power, but because it was so thoroughly humiliated by WWII that the US "felt sorry" for it.

Otherwise, Bravo to the Aussie who fears no French :)

Sounds like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Who cares who is on the "Security Council." The UN is nothing but a bunch of wolves and a sheep deciding on what is for dinner.

The only UN military actions have been at the intiative, funding and majority staffing by the US. So what if India is against us? So what if Britain is against us? If a particular action is good for us, we must do it regardless of which of those countries think it is a good idea.

Call me a unilateralist, but don't call me a UN-ilateralist.

When countries like Syria get to decide how world security should be promoted, a France or a Germany or and India will not damage, nor rescue the credibility of that body any further.

Errrrr don't save a sinking ship, let it fade away...

#32 J Lichty:

You're absolutely right, of course. I just think that we should take the opportunity to remove France from of the Security Council (if that's possible) before kicking the U.N. out of the United States.

As an Aussie I'm pleased that John Howard is raising blunt questions.

But the ENTIRE veto system is unworkable - and was recognised to risk League-of-Nations paralysis back in 1945 by the UK representative in the design of thr UN, Sir Alexander Cadogan. He said the veto set-up simply recreated the League, which had been shown to be useless.

But hey - any smack in the mouth for France is fine by me !

#23

risk "the ire of France" - whatever that is.

Probably having to eat snails and drink headache-inducing wine, while listening to Chiraq harangue you about his younger days as a nubile, stuffed crotch, Cirque de Soleil acrobat who could sniff his own bum.

#32

You're right.
As usual...

though I think the UN should pack up 'n move out, i like howard's idea.

But if we give india a seat, pakistan will clamor for one. Japan I can understand. Why not give the Aussies a seat?

Cheers to the Aussies--if I drank wine it would have to be Australian! :)

#27:

Why not South Africa? It's certainly the regional powerhouse in sub-Saharan Africa.

Also, if Africa is indeed a "hellhole," a concept that I would take issue with in any case, many of the problems are not home-grown, but rather as a result of the after-effects of colonialism (remember that, say, Zimbabwe has only been independent for some 20-odd years), and also that it was treated like a playground for the opposed powers during the Cold War, each side fostering dictators that suited their particular interests.

This an outrageous idea. It is just another example of the damn English speaking peoples attempting to interfere with the glory that is France and all French speaking peoples. Those Anglo-Americans are so pushy.

If this continues, France will lead a "new world order" headed by the French speaking nations. That, of course, would include three or four former African colonies and the provence of Quebec.

It is obvious that John Howard never ever considered this dangerous possibility.

#27

Going by GDP of African countries, taken from the CIA Factbook, the big ones in Africa are:

South Africa (412 billion), Egypt (258 billion), Algeria (177 billion). Morocco, Nigeria, and maybe a couple others come in at the 100 billion range.

These numbers are total GDP, not per capita, so bigger countries are obviously going to pull off higher GDPs.

For comparison: US (10.08 trillion), France (1.54 trillion), Israel (122 billion), Taiwan (388 billion).

Yes, this is only an economic measure, but the stronger a countries economy, the relatively less likely to be run by fascist governments (China, of course, being the exception to the rule).

Of the African big 3... Egypt, hah. Algeria, while smart enough to militarily prevent a fundamentalist Islamic party from taking over the government, still has quite a few problems. South Africa, while a republic of the type prevalent in Israel and England, is still pretty unstable politically.

There just isn't a strong case for *any* African nation to receive a SEC seat. Perhaps we could reserve a seat, stating that the first African country with strong principles of freedom, human rights, and a decent economy can have the seat when the time comes?

Nah, that'd probably get us called imperialists.

See:

[Link: www.theaustralian.news.com.au...]

THE young Digger aimed his M-16 carbine at the driver.

It wasn't his manner, and certainly not his weapon, that told us he was Australian.

Like his forefathers in the African desert and on the Kokoda Track in World War II, he was doing something no US soldier would ever do ? he was wearing shorts.

A vehicle had ignored his "stop" signal and was moving slowly towards the checkpoint.

Once the soldier in stubbies and desert camouflage gear had made his intentions clear, the driver stopped.

For one of Australia's elite soldiers of the Special Air Service regiment, traffic duty was not his job of choice, but as Iraq's former leaders plot to escape it is a crucial job.

With guys like this backing him up, Mr. Howard should truly enjoy M. Chirac's visit.

#42

we are the imperialists, check it out

imperialists

but in SF, these guys are losing some steam

You know, a lot people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines....

OT
protesters in london

150,000 or 20,000

anyone from london here, which was it? remember these people don't hesitate to lie if it's for their good cause

london - 150 or 20 thousand?

North Korea -- Shock and Awed:

Associated Press
April 12, 2003

North Korea Hints it Would Accept Multilateral Talks Over Nuclear Dispute

SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea hinted Saturday it could accept U.S. demands for multilateral talks to discuss the communist country's suspected nuclear weapons program.

The announcement might herald a dramatic change in North Korean policy. Until now, the North has insisted on only direct talks with Washington to negotiate a nonaggression treaty.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

If France ever gives up it's seat or has it taken away, I hope the new recipient of that seat has the good sense to disinfect it.

#32 has it exactly right - UNSC membership has become almost as worthless as membership in the Council of the League of Nations.

Having France on the UNSC simply accelerates the UN's irrelevance in the eyes of most Americans.

Like his forefathers in the African desert and on the Kokoda Track in World War II, he was doing something no US soldier would ever do ? he was wearing shorts.

Did anyone mention how freakin' tough these Aussies are?

No other army would have the guts to wear shorts in combat!

LOL

I love it!
I'd definitely feel a hell of a lot safer with an Aussie at my back than a Frog...

Violently disagree that Canada should be allowed to be part of the Security Council or anything else requiring a backbone or the ability to think.

I'm almost to the point of digging a cross-continental canal from Atlantic to Pacific just so we can say we're not even sharing the same continent with them any more, and they can drift off into space on their own moonbeam. Maybe we can have it dug at the same time as Israel digs their own canal physically separating them from the Plighted Palestinians.

OT
protesters in london

150,000 or 20,000

anyone from london here, which was it? remember these people don't hesitate to lie if it's for their good cause

london - 150 or 20 thousand?

MUST.................. WASH .................. EYES

SOCIALIST..................... WEBSITE.......................... ........BLINDING ME............ WITH ........... RIGHTEOUS .......... .................................................. ........................ ANGER

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHH

SMASH
KILL
SOCIALISTS

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

; )

Remind me again: what is the value of the UN, even after reforms?

We Aussies just come out and say it straight!

(It's gotten me into trouble here in the States, as Americans as a rule are very polite and don't like to offend.)

That said, Kudos to Howard. Much like Blair, he's faced a lot of popular opposition back home.

You'd have thought the Bali bombings would've brought the Aussie public round. But Iraq was a tough sell.

Don't want to talk for all Australians, but the French have never been highly regarded. (Detonating nuclear weapons in the Pacific doesn't really endear you to the natives.)

The Aussies fought side by side with Americans all throughout the 20th century. We may tease the Yanks from time to time (that's our way), but there's a lot of affection there, too.

Celissa #50,

Did anyone mention how freakin' tough these Aussies are?

Try watching a game of Aussie rules football. It's awesome. In my high school, we played Aussie rules football as part of gym class, but we had to modify the rules in order to make it more appropriate for school. But the real rules allow pretty much anything as long as your eyes are on the ball. So we saw a video of one guy climbing another guy, kicking off him, and then catching the ball, and it was all good since his eyes were on the ball the whole time. Crazy sport. But crazy cool to watch. And a lot of fun to play.

#54, WJ

Don't worry about the teasing - we understand that it's part and parcel of the Aussie, and we tease back too.

It's always nice to see someone who has balls enough to say what they mean. You guys think you could loan us a couple of politicians of Howard's ilk?

#4 Greg

No he 'frenched up' France. *lol

#4 Greg: No, that was Bush. Chirac bent the country over.

Way to go Mr. Howard! So proud to have the Aussies on board.

Africa is a steaming spewing hell-hole. Blame it on colonialism or not, that doesn't make giving it a global say the right thing to do. Read up a little bit on the horror stories coming from the shining light that is S. Africa before pushing their influence upon anyone else. Sounds like the touchy-feely leftism of "Who says Johnny can't be a structural engineer just because he can't do math and is ignorant of physics? He's trying and that's all that matters!" And who's to say South Africa speaks for Libya or Zimbabwe?

No, the system is fundamentally flawed, and adding members, no matter their merits (Japan, Australia), will only make things worse. The right thing to do is the right thing to do, regardless of who tries to bribe whom. Guinea anyone? Let the place be one where diplomats can all meet in safety and discuss issues in a public forum. No vetos, no votes. Agreements can be reached and announced there as a way of making them public. Spain wants to declare on Canada? Fine, announce and discuss it there if you like. Malaysia objects and says it will fight by Canada's side? Duly noted. Morocco starts an initiative for every country to donate 0.3% GDP to fighting AIDS? Super. Sign on if you want, or not. Just cut the pretense of an assembly of law-abiding nations that all want peace and human rights.

World Socialist Web Site / Published by the International Committee for the Fourth International?

what a load of crap.

How about:

"The International Movement For The Premature Explodation of The Phillistines"?

(I loved that one Charles, I had to shamelessly plug it again!)

I actually delivered a verbal thrashing to a German peacenik/america hater/coward today. The strongest argument it could deliver was "Americans are so ineffiecient militarily that they kill everyone on the battlefield" as a referance to friendly fire incidents. Obviously there was no risk to German troops in this because they werent there!

And those Aussies are a tough bunch, much repect for thier military.

ummm, should be "Spain wants to declare WAR on Canada?" Sorry. There's probably other Frenched-up stuff in there as well.

Seems to me that instead of writing off Africa as a "steaming spewing hell-hole," which had you ever traveled widely there you would realize it was not, it would make more sense to bring it into the fold, economically, diplomatically, etc. After all, isn't Al Qaeda moving into sub-Saharan Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, etc)? Couldn't that be pre-empted by engaging those countries, fostering their economies and so on? It's nonsense to write off vast swathes of the globe, like Africa or the "-stans" of Central Asia, simply because you view them as "hell-holes," for whatever reason.

This thought occurred to me: maybe Chirac is just CIA agent #1 (de Villepin is #2). They destroyed UN, EU, France,... and are GOOD at it (with some Schröder assistance). The US should be interested to keep Chirac in office... :)

dennis miller on the french

--gas up the dingy and go fishing with fredo

you're dead to me

#54 Wild Justice

My mom pointed out that Aussies really are our closest friends--since we share the same "exiting England" ancestry.

She was very, very quick to point out that if America ever needed a friend and everyone was against them, the Aussies would probably be the only ones who weren't. And with gumption like your PM shows...it seems we need very few friends like Australia to really get things done.

#61

You are very right. We must be proactive. It will be tough going, and you must keep in mind that the elites in those countries, and the International bueraucrats will be be working at odds with us. It might be best to start with as small a country as a possible. I must admit, I don't know much about the non-arab nations in Africa.

Security council membership is a sensitive issue, an nobody must be offended.

Thus I propose that France and The Russian Federation are removed and that Israel and Taiwan are added.

Ask and ye shall receive: Howard meets Bush at Crawford (CNN)

Show him the love!

#61: I agree. Even though the US have not had the strongest interest in the US, things might change soon. The US is importing the same amount of oil (no idiotarian bullshit coming) from the whole of Africa as they import from Saudi Arabia now, and the amount is growing. This automatically implies strategic interests. This is certainly not the only or most important factor, but I guess it is not the most unimportant one.

Model4:

heh...I think we should use portions of Africa as a reason to remove France from the security council, actually. Aren't four or five of their former (pre-1996) colonies still fighting? Didn't they fail to verify that the government they installed was fully functioning before pulling out completely?

I don't know...I think S. Africa might be worth considering for the UNSC...India is definitely in there too...and we should get rid of Russia while we're at it....replace them with Japan.

I like it!

Aargh, I write nonsense, I wanted to say in #68:

The US have not had the strongest interest in AFRICA, sorry.

#46 r

I am not from London, but this what the unbiased BBC reported.
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

All I know is the peaceniks are SULKING.

# 11 Brenda:

The article says:

European Union member states could send troops to Iraq to to keep order, a French Government minister has said.

Learn to keep order in Paris and Marseilles first.

The EU has been slowly establishing a rapid reaction force, which began its first operation in Macedonia last month.

Says it all. Don't they eat snails there?

By the way:
It is bettere to throw out the Russian and the French before shutting the UN down.

Three blows is better than one. At least it is more entertaining that way.

ycrnx: When did I ever write off the place? For that matter, who are you to say what my travels in Africa have or have not been? Who are you to say I'm against bringing them into the fold?

The context of the argument is giving Africa/an African nation more power in the UNSC. In those terms, any nation in Africa is a hell-hole, no matter the good of some of the people, the intentions of some of the governments, and the obstacles they have to overcome. But the way the UNSC is set up now is to give some nations a say over the activities of other nations. I'm not going to give any African or other immature, unstable nation that kind of power. Sorry, the kid in high school who wants to be a surgeon one day isn't going to operate on me until he's tested and qualified.

There are clear-as-day roadmaps out there for peoples and countries that want to better themselves. Stop pissing away aid money. Teach your people how to read and do math. This is cheap. Adopt a constitutional democratic republic with the rule of law. Embrace capitalism. Stop chosing to spread AIDS (hint, most of it isn't from birth and transfusions, and raping babies doesn't cure it). Stop playing the victim. Most of the world was colonized at one point or another. We didn't exactly have iMacs and cat-scans in the 1700s, but managed to take pretty good care of our own. Joining the 1900s would be a pretty good step before I start singing the praises of any nation.

You want to be upset with this analysis? Fine. You tell it to the girl tied to a tree stump about to get carved up for her future husband, or the guy whose hands were hacked off with a machete for voicing support for the wrong political leader.

The hostility towards the Liberal government up here is reaching a fever pitch. Whoever next occupies the office will almost certainly reform the system- AT WORST. At best, he could be a new Reagan!

Not helping the USA in Gulf War II was a ferocious blunder, and the Grits will probably realize it. Besides, short of giving the seat to Senegal or Israel, NOTHING will make those frog bastards plotz more than giving it to the country that fuckwit DeGaulle tried to break up.

Our long national nightmare, about to end?? We can only hope...

(PS: to all those people saying Canada is a wimpnation: fuck's sake, how many terrorists/ Nazis does this country have to kill before you spout off about people doing a great job in SPITE of some of the worst government neglect in military history??)

And one more thing, #73, not all of Africa is backwards like that. I'd invest in Botswana or Cameroon, but not in Sudan or Zimbabwe. People who say all of Africa is backwards and savage are just goddamn ignorant. No African nation is ready to command global opinion yet, but that's no reason to write all Africans off.

#50 Celissa, #55 Ariel:

Years ago my partner and I were doing our homework for a US Navy school in an Irish style pub in a southern city. At a table next to us were 4 Aussies and 2 US Marines attending a different school. Late in the evening, some Aussie banter got the better of the two Marines, who jumped to their feet and prepared to wade into the Aussie sailors, but before any blows could be exchanged, the Aussie CPO shouted that 4 on 2 wasn't quite cricket and instructed the Aussie sailor on one end of the group to join the Marines, which he did. My partner and I didn't hang around to see the outcome, but I'll never forget that sailor turning his cap backwards to signify that for the evening's dustup, he was playing on the side of the Marines!

#56   sub_version 

Rumsfeld is very Australian-like!!

I like it when people call the war

Gulf War II

can't quite actually say

Iraqi Freedom

tsk, tsk

Cowgirl,

Your Mom/Mum is absolutely right.

Deep bonds.

We're with you guys all the way!

And proudly so.

Things have become so absurd at the UN that I half expect Jar Jar Binks to get up and address the next session of the "Security Council." He will support France's bid to raise a clone army to fight against the US.

The UN is nothing but fiction. It makes Michael Moore seem like he makes accurate documentaries.

Bush is always trying to reach out to the other side whether it be the other side of the aisle or the other side of the Atlantic. He makes it seem like he is being inclusive and even makes some token gestures to that end.

Recall his campaign of "bi-partisanship" and then retaining such Clintonite stalwarts as Norm Mineta and George Tenet. Bush always wants to make it seem like he is being inclusive, thus he will give the "Quartet" and the State Department free range to meddle with Israel, but may salvage things in the end. He will try to win friends at the UN by giving token concessions on a myriad of other issues, but will not budge on the big one, involvement in post-war political reconstruction.

He will in short do what he always does, zig-zag with alternating and contradictory morally clear ideals and "fuzzy" diploimacy. You will never know where he stands until it is over and he will come out on top. It is the one hope I have for this road-map process. Bush although he frustrates the hell out of you with his apparent wobbliness, always ends up doing the right thing.

LOL Jar Jar Binks. HE would probably make more senese then the frogs, althought they do share the amphibian qualities. Jar Jar hehehe...

I'm not sure it hasn't already been stated but I think Prime Minister Howard is wrong on one count. France a power at the end of the Second World War - donnez moi un break. A bunch of whining Vichy ass kissers who happened to be rescued by the Allies and were on the side of the victors.

Jar Jar Binks! LOL!! Though I'd like to see his conversation with Morbo... :) Remember Futurama?

Nixon: Morbo, what about the family?
Morbo: Always at war, and numerous!
Nixon: Good man!

trevalyan: When did I ever say all of Africa is like that? Popes in a Volkswagon people. Here, let's take just a little sample from the post #73 you claim to have read.

The context of the argument is giving Africa/an African nation more power in the UNSC. In those terms, any nation in Africa is a hell-hole, no matter the good of some of the people, the intentions of some of the governments, and the obstacles they have to overcome.

Now where, exactly, did I say all Africans should be written off? You want to make an argument against that, great. But don't pretend I'm arguing for it!

OT

those iraqi cards are going for as high as $ 81 on ebay

I like how correctly Howard presents this issue: international relations and United Nations spirit will benefit from France surrendering its seat. (by the way, somebody needs to patent the combination of words "France" and "surrender"). Right on, Mr. Howard, for bringing it up!

#40 Kaybo -

Please. South Africa used to be a 1st World nation but crime, rampant AIDs, and the Xhosas and Zulus running the show are fast mucking it up as badly as Angola & Zimbabwe.

As for that old saw about the only reason the African countries being hell holes because of the Mean 'ol White Men...many have been "liberated" since the 50's...and seen their human rights and standard of living plummet straight-down once they made themselves "white & Asian-free".

As things stand and you had to, frankly were forced to pick a subSaharan cesspool to be permanent Security Council..., the largest "democracy" is Nigeria....but that country too is headed into the toilet.

North of the desert...you have Egypt as the most advanced, powerful nation in all of Africa and the most populous next to Nigeria.....care for a permanent seat for Egypt??

And sorry, the only reason we are thinking solicitously towards Africa is that the people are in such sad shape, nations splitting into 3 nations every other week over tribes warring over hex spells and the buttocks of the women in rival tribes being exceptionally displeasing....so now we have 80 or so basket case nations on one continent and more to follow as the people breed like bacteria and set up more "nation-creating" civil wars over scarce resources, share of the graft, and Islam.

I'd vote in some 3 coconut tree butt-fuck boonieland coral lagoon in the Pacific "claiming" to be a nation (meaning one of the ones already in sharing equal voting rights with Japan) before any country in Africa.

#45

Been trying out a few Aussie vintages, just to support our mates Down Under, and they are pretty damn good for the price.

Would say the same for Foster's, but IIRC, it is brewed "under license" in Canada by Molson's (just like some of the Japanese brews...) :-( If I want an Aussie/Japanese/wherever brew, it had damn well be better be brewed in that country, not Canada or the US.

Getting to Serious Candidates....Japan should be admitted tomorrow as a stable democracy and supplier of 25% of the money the UN has spent over the years.

India should be in a "candidate" status - based on criteria in the future to be met...like becoming a net producer of UN services rather than a net consumer.

Brazil is close...but has too many years of instability in it's not too recent past.

France....what I would like is not to remove France but diminish France...make it's seat the Continental EU seat...either:

1. Rotating among all EU members with a minimum set of qualifications of size, ability to intervene (ie, Italy & Poland...not Monaco or Greece).
2. Acting not as purely the Continental EU - not any nation....but those multilateral officials starting with Chris Patten.

You see....being diminished would be exceptionally punishing to France...more so than being utterly defeated...because we know the French, from experience, are expert at creating pride, glory, and honor out of utter defeat. But reduced.....and arguing against Spain, Italy, Poland, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Turkey one day...that they should never diminish France...the Great Nation on the Continent....would lead to us laughing our asses off as France screams before the UN "Diminishment Vote"......"Shut up. Shut up! All of you lesser gauche peoples...."

And watch as the Euros join the US in booting the Froggies down to "waiting their turn in a EU rotation" or waiting to see who the German bankers who really run the EU, select for EU leadership...

A distant thought would be it sure would be great to have small Australia on the SC....and other nations that are British Commonwealth....less India with it's own seat. Even Canada....which is a great country....once it was clear that Quebec is not a part of it and has no influence on a Brit Commonwealth seat.....but must input to France.

Now, Now.

As I agree that India would be a more suitable candidate for the Security Council that France, I would also agree that is silly to consider throwing France out. We cannot conclude that they have been "insubordinate" and therefore send them packing. They had every right to be opposed. Regardless of what we speculate that their motives were(weapons, finance, etc...)we should not punish them for their actions. They have taken one on the chin in public opinion anyway. Let's not add insult to injury for having an opinion.

Personally, I disagree with France and the stand they've made. However, disbarring them from the UN is almost as silly as the idea of "Freedom Fries".

OT

Confronting the Myth

lee harris

OT
syria - hmmm?

Oh! You better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why:
The 4th ID is coming to town!

He's making a list,
Checking it twice,
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice.
The USAF is coming to town!

He sees you when you're sleeping,
He knows when you're awake.
He knows if you've been bad or good,
So be good for goodness sake!

Oh! You better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why:
America! is coming to town!

Model4 re #58:

"No, the system is fundamentally flawed, and adding members, no matter their merits (Japan, Australia), will only make things worse."

Hmmm ... maybe we should encourage the idea of expanding the Security Council -- let them add 50 new permanent members to it, each of which would have a veto.

Just imagine the resulting chaos. Nothing would ever get done. Everyone would be vetoing everything left and right. A complete mess. Total ineffectuality. An overabundance of material for comedians everywhere.

Model4,

I agree with your sentiments on economic development and increases in freedom in Africa. But you said "any nation in Africa is a hell-hole" and I took it to mean you weren't impressed with any African government, to an extent that is simply incorrect. Perhaps I'm underrating your appreciation of what African countries that DON'T make the news regularly for riots and sharia are like? At any rate, if I am, consider my statement withdrawn.

Brian (#90)

They PRETEND to be our ally, yet have, let's face it here, allied with Iraq at BEST to preserve their oil contracts, at worst as proxy hostility to American interests. We are NOT going through the whole "counterbalancing" concept of the Cold War with an overrated group of losers. America should hit France hard for their treacherous actions, and no mistake. Otherwise, the UN can just trying moving to Ottawa, or Harare.

My favorite line from the article:

His comments risk the ire of France before the first visit to Australia by President Jacques Chirac, who is due in the country in July.

Gaahhh!!!....risking the ire of France.....sounds pretty dangerous......

TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER

Erm... lads you forgot one thing.

No way to do all this without allowing the fascist Moslem states of the Middle East on..

You'd also have to allow Mbeki's lunatic band of commies in S Africa in, and what about other fascists states.

Yeah the French are lying, trecherous, immoral scum, but they're our scum. Better than having the Arabs disctatorships or S Africans on the council, who take the whole thing a few steps lower.

Ever heard Mbeki or Mandella speak? You'd think it were Al Quaeda talking in African accents, and you ain't seen anti-semitic nonsense like that coming out of Arfica.

As it is its awful, but with this lot it would be unbearable.

So a toast to the awful Fenchies.. better than the other idiots, and our idiots.

Every family's got a crazy uncle who no-one likes but everyone puts up with!

*patents the phrase "France Surrenders*"

Here, Now everyone on the board can use it free of charge becuase I like it here. :)

You guys mention Howard (who is brilliant on foreign policy issues but sadly lacking on economic reform) But you fail to mention the fact that we just won the World Cup of cricket (the only thing more important than ridding the world of terrorists).
As for Africa, the argument about colonialism is a joke. Which country at some point in history has not been colonized? Any takers? I know that Thailand (Siam) was never colonized by the Europeans, but I imagine it was at some point. South America, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and Hong Kong are all examples of European colonialism some turned out well some badly. The issue is not colonialism, it is not race, or natural resources or weather, it is economic and political freedom. There is little doubt that the Brits treated their colonies better than say Belgium, but even this is no guarantee of the welfare of its citizens, (Zimbabwe was British).

# 98: I read, last week I think, that Sony patented the phrase "shock and awe." They want to use it for a video game or something like that. Unfortunately, I can't find the article at the moment.

If Chirac comes to Sydney, I may take the day off work expressly to go to wherever he is and catcall him - maybe throw paint over him like the french assholes did to the war memorial (dedicated to the allied soldiers who died in WWII to save worthless french butts).

"Risking the ire" of Jacques Chirac is like an elephant risking the ire of a gnat. And the Aussie troops did a great job in Iraq, also!

#88 Clutch. A few years back, on a road trip of the southern USA, I came across a bar in Memphis selling a great Tasmanian brew called "James Boag's". Don't know if it's available elsewhere in the States but it's a beer of choice here in Oz.

Boag's is available in many parts of US. It's a good brew.

#103 AndyM
Is KBtooth still around? I had many of them before I ever had a Foster's.

Howard is going to Crawford

#101: me too. I can't think of anything funnier than Chirac being heckled

although if it happens while chirac is in the company of howard it reflects poorly on him and the government too

#76 EW1:

AD3 here, sup shipmate.

You need an african country for the UN. Go for Kenya. Everybody likes kenya, they have wonderful animal sanctuaries. Allowed the Israelis to gas up their planes on the way back from entebbe. Plus as the word goes, Israel gets most of its uranium from kenya.

Re #99:

Which country at some point in history has not been colonized? Any takers? I know that Thailand (Siam) was never colonized by the Europeans, but I imagine it was at some point.

Eugene Volokh recently had a trivia question in his blog about places which have never been ruled by a European nation -- not exactly what you asked for, but pretty close. The answers are here:

[Link: volokh.blogspot.com...]

(Thailand was one of the answers; it was never colonized.)

Here's a bit of fun about Australia, from SatireWire, which used to be the best satire site on the web:

[Link: www.satirewire.com...]

Joshua #109,

Depends on whether you consider the Japanese to have been colonizers in Thailand.

Speaking as a Canadian, Canada's not ready to be on the Security Council. Our foreign policy is barely coherent as it is. And the PM would just appoint one of his friends or relatives to the position anyway (regardless of whether the decision is his or not).

India is still a bit too unstable, but Japan needs to get on the Council, like, yesterday.

The very concept of the UN as conferring legitimacy upon nations has just been proven unworkable. The UN needs to be redefined as to its goals and restrictions it can place upon nations. The evidence seems to show that it will continue to use the combined votes of its members to work against the interests of the United States. To continue on in its present configuration is lunacy. The mere removal of france will not change this outcome, in my opinion.

I wonder if the growing Anglo-French rift, and humiliating France by dropping them from the security council would turn them desperate enough to become terrorists. Imagine a bunch of Frenchies infiltrating and destroying in collaboration with Arabs. One of the most common bonds is a shared enemy. Saudi-Frog tag team...

Reaganite

Re KB Lager - I've not tasted it but I've heard of it. Apparently it's still around but it's only sold in locally in some areas of New South Wales.

Wanna be really scared? Consider that the US almost turned all nuclear weapons over to UN control.

[Link: www.historychannel.com...]

n one of the most memorable speeches ever delivered to the United Nations, presidential adviser Bernard Baruch went before the first session of the Atomic Energy Commission on June 14, 1946, and declared, ''We are here to make a choice between the quick and the dead." As U.S. representative to the United Nations Atomic Energy Commission, he proposed a radical plan to put atomic weapons under strict U.N. control.

Under the so-called Baruch Plan, the United States would relinquish its atomic monopoly in favor of the creation of a new United Nations Atomic Development Authority, which would become the sole body in the world that could legally possess nuclear arms. Baruch and his supporters in the U.S. government hoped that such a move would head off what they anticipated to be a deadly nuclear arms race with other powers in the world, namely the USSR.

It seems fairly clear that Howard doesn't want Chirac to visit. If Chirac doesn't cancel the trip after this comment from Howard, look for another provocation from the Aussies.

Maybe Chirac can visit Mugabe instead?

re #99
Howard poor on economic reform? Strange that the Oz economy is rated among the best in the world. Little union problems, growth in all sectors bar dot.com, establishing guidelines for corporate governance.
Seems ok to me.
Healthcare is a slight problem, but the pockets are never deep enough for health and education.
And he got taken to the cleaners by the late and unlamented democrats in GST negotiations. Imagine if GST had gone in correctly - the economy would be charging on.
And he loves cricket which is, as you say, the most important thing.
His Foreign Policy is excellent and is friendly with Israel, unlike the lefties who are attempting to position themselves as the pro-Palestinian party.

The UN was set up with permament members being the winners (plus France and China) of WWII and not the losers, so Japan being included would mark a change to that.

Which African country, if any? How about the head of the human rights commission? :P

If we were to have a middle east SC position, I'd support Israel, but outrageously it's currently the only country ineligable for SC membership. How about Iraq? It held a chair recently (or is, or will) in disarmament, and is being disarmed. What more can you ask for than such honesty?

Talking of Australia, it is 6 months (plus a few days) since the Bali terrorist attack that killed 88-89 Aussies and 200 people total.

#21 r

Your idea of a United Free Nations is truly a blessed idea!

So we remake the U.N. as the United Free Nations, and require for membership those nations that can prove that they truly tolerate freedom and opposition political parties.

Those who don't like it can create for the United Parties of the Inalienable Right to Oppress for all I care.

I don't think that France, on the face of their actions, qualifies to be a founding member. It would be exceedingly sad to see them lose their power, non?

If people want to discuss and debate the list of membershiip of the United Free Nations, so be it.

I'd love to hear the arguments to and fro over this issue.

France? Non!

Model4 (#73)

Question for you regarding this:

Stop chosing to spread AIDS (hint, most of it isn't from birth and transfusions, and raping babies doesn't cure it).

Now I know that you choose your words carefully, so I'd like to understand what you mean by choosing to spread AIDS?

All I have to say is...if a Dem gets elected in '04... I might seriously rethink my "Australia is too hot" theory... Can't be completely unbearable by the ocean, after all. ;) December barbies might be a little tough to get used to, though. :P

How 'bout we use GDP? Each country gets a vote for each $. France would be totally irrelevant and it might spur world wide economic reform to boot!

#120:

Presumably "stop choosing to do actions that'd cause AIDS to be spread". I don't think Model4 was suggesting a black cabal conspiring to infect Jews / whites in general with the disease.

I was looking foward to you commenting on this thread. Any views on viable African candidates for a permament security council position?

Re #14

It's high-time we toss australia a bone, they have always been there with us when the shooting starts, 'nam, GW1, GW2, and this Yank thinks we should pay more attention to them, drink more aussie wine, eat more lamb, maybe tear down some of our ag subsidies and tariffs which harm them. GWB should invite Howard to Crawford for a few days, that would be a start.

Howard's already been invited to Crawford. But as for the rest - it would be no mere bone.
I don't know how to say this without giving offense to a lot of people I like, but Aussies were never much on tact.The only nations with equally predatory policies against Australian trade are France and the USA. There, said it. Even slightly reducing the USA's habit of Microsoft-ing Australian traditional markets would be very much appreciated. As would a slight easing of restrictions on Aussie steel (made using machinery we bought from the USA so we'd be more efficient)
But you guys don't have to do this. We'd be helping out in Iraq anyway, even if it was France going in to rid the world of an odious Dictator and make us a little safer from biowar. You guys lost 118 KIA and 561 WIA at last count. You don't owe us squat.
It would be nice though. And give Australian wines a try anyway - if you don't agree that they're both better, and cheaper than alternatives, then go back to what you had before. (I live about 1 km away from the nearest winery...there are many advantages to living in Oz)

Andjam (#123)

When addressing me, I would appreciate it if you would refer to me by my name and not merely by the number of my post. It seems to be the latest trend on LGF and I find it extremely rude. Thanks.

I don't think Model4 was suggesting a black cabal conspiring to infect Jews / whites in general with the disease.

And you are on about what exactly? Please read Model4's post, and then read my post responding to that. After that, please explain how you got to the "black cabal/Jews/Whites" theory? I'm confused.

Any views on viable African candidates for a permament security council position?

Yes, I have views. No viable candidates. Well, let me rephrase that. I am most familiar with South Africa and Zimbabwe. No viable candidates.

#122

Unfortunately, France does have enough GDP to make a difference... on the other hand, the US has enough to cancel out the votes of France, Germany, and Russia combined, with a bit left over to handle almost all of China's GDP.

I do love the CIA World Factbook, I do.

#89, Ranbutan

Hmmm... a rotating 'great power' seat for the EU in place of the French seat might actually be an interesting concept. Either rotating amongst member nations on a rota determined by the members, or perhaps a sort of unified representation? Either way, it would piss off France, give some of the other countries in the region (Italy, Spain, the Eastern bloc) a bit more voice in UNSC, and in general probably lead to a more stable situation in the world.

#113

france has already committed at least one terrorist act in this part of the world when it blew up the rainbow warrior in wellington new zealand.this was done by the french secreted {intentional} service.

russell

the aussies certainly play it straight and hard:-)

maybe the time has come to seriously reconsider the UNSC. Europe has 3 out of 5 seats(UK,FRance and Russia) it order to give it a better representational character and more importantly, crediblity and wider acceptance , you need to delete france and add a new one. who?candidate.......
#1 india :
pros : worlds biggest democracy,billion plus human resources,worlds largest trained technical manpower,secular nation,neutral and largely acceptable to all especially the middle east countries, a well trained professional defence force, stable economy .
cons:still lagging behind in devlopment, China would be unwilling to accept.
# South Africa :-
pros: only acceptable candidate from the african continent. need to give prominience and representation to atleast one african nation.
cons: unstable democracy, regressing economy.
#3 australia :
pros; strong commitment to democracy , rapidly growing economy, involvement in world issues.
cons: far too isolated to influence regional power structure.
non acceptance by other asian countries .another country dominated by conservatives ,more in line with US and UK. danger of forming a clique / club ignoring the other world opinion. extreme views on middle east affairs.

will somebody inform me as to why was france included in the first place? they have been such losers ...all through ...

In reply to Alan E Brain #124

"but Aussies were never much on tact."

Waddayamean? We've got buckets of tact.

While we're at it, let's nix French as an official language at the Olympic Games.

Sooner or later they'll get the hint that they are no longer, and never really have been, what they imagine themselves to be.

Re #129 Yes, that's 'cos we've never used any of it.

political fundamentalists.

maybe we
#1 move UN to Damascus
#2 make Idi Amin Secretary General
#3 drop the biggest nuke we can find on it

#125 Zulubaby:

"When addressing me, I would appreciate it if you would refer to me by my name and not merely by the number of my post. It seems to be the latest trend on LGF and I find it extremely rude. Thanks."

Ok.

"I don't think Model4 was suggesting a black cabal conspiring to infect Jews / whites in general with the disease.

And you are on about what exactly? Please read Model4's post, and then read my post responding to that."

I did.

"After that, please explain how you got to the "black cabal/Jews/Whites" theory? I'm confused."

Sorry. Failed attempt at humour. I was referring to conspiracy theories about whites/Jews spreading AIDS amongst blacks, and that Model4's post made it sound like blacks were conspiring to spread AIDS.

"Yes, I have views. No viable candidates. Well, let me rephrase that. I am most familiar with South Africa and Zimbabwe. No viable candidates. "

Thanks.

Come to think of it, with Russia a member of the security council, Libya in charge of human rights, and Iran chairing disarmanent sometime this year, Zimbabwe would probably be best suited to the World Food Program.

Good on Johnny Howard. He is the most popular Australian Prime Minister in a very long time, despite mountains of anti war propaganda spewed at him from the Government funded media and the loony left. His Liberal Government is WAAY ahead in the polls (The Liberal party is the conservative party down under, yeah go figure...)

BTW we love teasing the Yanks and the Brits for two reasons. They are the only people left with a sense of humour, and its illegal to tease anybody else).

Andjam (#134)

Sorry. Failed attempt at humour.

Fair enough.

I was referring to conspiracy theories about whites/Jews spreading AIDS amongst blacks, and that Model4's post made it sound like blacks were conspiring to spread AIDS.

I don't think I'm familiar with that particular conspiracy theory, and I seriously doubt that Model4 meant it that way.

...Zimbabwe would probably be best suited to the World Food Program.

Yeah, Mugabe is your man if you want to learn how to starve people for political reasons while blaming it on "the drought". G-d knows I hate the man.

Sorry if I missed your humour. G'night.

thabo #40,

but rather as a result of the after-effects of colonialism

Also don't forget that these newly independent nations invariably adopted socialist governments which doomed them to failure.

I think the UN would be just about tolerable if it lost its executive branch, the Security Council altogether.

I have no problems with the General Assembly as a powerless talking shop or with some of the NGOs such as the World Meteorological Organisation or the International Postal Union.

But when it comes to matters of defense; how would we be worse off if we just had regional defense unions with real teeth like NATO or ANZUS or spontaneous coalitions like the "Coalition of the Willing".

When nations need to get together they will, so why do we need the SC to give its imprimatur? We are only exposing ourselves to veto-obstructionism.

Sorry if that means that I am disagreeing with my beloved fearless leader John Howard. I did vote for him but I don't agree with him on this point.

OT: Great stuff from Mark Steyn:

I note that in October 2001 Faizal Aqtub Siddiqi, president-general of the International Muslims Organization, said that the bombing of Afghanistan would create 1,000 bin Ladens, whereas the other day Egypt's President Mubarak said that the bombing of Iraq would create 100 bin Ladens. So right there you've got a 90% reduction in the bin Laden creation program just by bombing a second country.

Alan E. Brain, #124:

I agree that the US needs to rethink its trade policies towards Australia--would you guys be interested in something like NAFTA?

And you are right about Australian wines. They are GREAT!

Excuse me for my ignorance of history - but why was France a "global power" at the end of WWII? What did they do during the war besides bend over for the Germans?

#109 Joshua Before anyone gets carried away and starts talking about "plucky little Thailand", the reason it was never colonised was an agreement between Britain and France a couple of hundred years ago (maybe 150, not sure) to keep it as a buffer, or no man's land, between French Indo-China (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, etc) and the long British peninsula of Malaya (as it then was, and which also, at time, included Singapore).

It was convenient to Britain and France to keep it neutral because then they didn't have to worry about one another invading each other's territories.

France abandoned its former colonies; Britain granted ours freedom and has remained on the most cordial of terms with both Malaysia and Singapore, two very fine and advanced countries indeed. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing either one on the Security Council, especially Singapore. A brilliant success story and populated by clever, pragmatic Chinese.

Unfortunately Aus had its fair share of peaceniks/
Saddam apologists. Note the number of people at the
ralies. But of course the polls depended on the question
asked.
We are not the Croc Hunter/Dundee of mythology, but
we have a canny PM with his eye on history and right.
Most Aussies did not want a war (who did), but wanted
Saddam removed.
We are also hampered by political correctness from
a forthright discussion on many issues.
I think it is about time we took back the pride in our
civilization (with all its faults) from the quagmire it fell
into after WW1 & 2.
We have many faults, but how many westerners are
political refo's in nonwestern countries compared to
vice versa.

Southerner

The current trade talks are trying for something less than NAFTA, NAFTA would be nifty I think. Unfortunately we would have to bring in our ungrateful whinging little brother, New Zealand. They say you cant choose your relatives, but hey, maybe we could leave them outside in the rain for a while, teach 'em a lesson.

Oz imports about twice as much from the US as we export to the US, it is our agricultural produce and raw materials which are kept out by US quotas. The irony is that our conservative farmers are amongst the strongest US supporters in the country. Our major surplus comes from Japan, who takes most of our raw produce.

Overall though, manufacturing is more important to our economy than agriculture, with about 70% of the output in services, and very little trade protection. Free trade with the US would be a great benefit to Oz, and shut up the minority anti US whingers. A bit.

Holy Cow Australia!!!!!

First, they give us Kylie Minogue who has the best ass on the planet ( im not trying to be a pig...im just stating the undeniable facts)

And now this. Bravo!

Q: What do you get when your ancestors are a bunch of criminals ( as my lefty pal points out) ?

A: A future heritage of 10 pound BRASS BALLS

The truth has been spoken !!! Even the United States couldn't come out and say that.

The UN has no more credibility and needs a shake up.

France....you ARE the weakest link

GOOD BYE

Personally, I am a huge fan of Australian wines. They produce some of the best wines for the money. I can't think of too many specific labels right now, but Four Sisters (some number of Sisters anyways) and and crap, I am having brain-lockups this morning. Oh and Victoria Bitter is a wonderful beer. I am more of a beer drinker than a wine drinker anyways. My brother, who is in the Air Force, spent 2 years flying with the Aussie Air Force and loved his time there. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to go visit :-( One day though, I would love to come see Australia. Any of our Oz friends want to put me and my wife up for a couple days?! I'd reciprocate if you ever decide to visit North Carolina. Haha.

Oh and as for the topic at hand. I am of the opinion that the UN is a waste of...well, everything: time, resources, air, money, etc. But, unfortunately, I doubt it is going to go away anytime soon. I'd love to see France kicked out, but I don't see that happeing either. Australia should get a seat at the big table. They deserve it. India...well, not so much. They are a democracy, sort of. They have some work to do IMHO. Rampant poverty and can hardly feed their people. On a seperate thought, we should force a resolution condemning the EU's restrictions on GM foods! They are starving people to death for no good reason. Anyways....

#143 coker: "PC in Australia" LOL, for the time being, the Aussies are more whipped than the Yanks! That's not the natural order of things. You guys gotta fix that!

zulubaby: Yes, I see having unprotected sex in an area riddled with AIDS as chosing to spread it, tough words though they be. When a guy drinks a 12-pack of beer and runs down a couple of pedestrians accidentally with his car, he gets charged with murder or manslaughter. Why? Because he took a massive preventable risk with his and other lives. He didn't know for sure he'd be killing anyone, but he knew for sure he'd be increasing the odds of it happening.

#128 netguru: Why, pray tell, do we need to give prominence and representation to an African country? What is it about the geography there that behooves us to do so, despite it being against the world's (including Africa's) interests? What is it about S. America that doesn't make you feel the same way? The soil? The weather? The people? How about we use the best/most influential nations, no matter where they happen to be, and use them as models for the weaker states to aspire toward? Show worthiness, and the perks follow. Give away perks, no incintive to improve.

Andjam: Mugabe in charge of food distribution? That was a howler! :) Except that I could picture it happening (see netguru above) "We want Zimbabwe to be better, so we'll pretend they are, even if it lets Mugabe start deliberately "droughting" people outside his borders. The incintive for change will be, ummm, our original wishes for change! Hey, if it's a catastrophe, we'll just have the Americans clean it up, then blame them for doing it wrong and not doing it sooner!"

Alan E Brain, I think a fair number of Yanks realize that our ag subsidies/trade tariffs are pretty stupid and would love to see them reduced or scrapped. Whether they are as bad as the EU's CAP is like asking is being stabbed as bad as being shot. They both suck, although across the board the US level is significantly lower. Still lots of room for improvement, which benefit millions, both farmers and consumers.

#135 BlindSide

I'm English, and as I'm sure you're aware, we can take the piss as well as anyone (we can also take it). Why only recently we sent a crack team of comedians to an event you had recently. Hope you fell for it. However, we shall not be messing with the Rugby World Cup ;)

Now on-topic:
How refreshing that a statesman can say what everyone has been thinking for a very long time. How marginalised the French have been recently. How they will squirm when the drip-drip-drip of dreadfully awful (for the French) reports start to make their way out of Iraq. How it must have smarted for upstart Eastern Europeans to talk to the betters. How ... irrelevant ... they have become in this 'newer' world order (Bush #1 was a few years early perhaps).

And now, a beer ... (English, warm, potent - 5.5%)

Just about to go and ...

#148 Ursuletul Mare

You must be kidding! - the CAP is the most disgusting feeding trough for inefficient over-priced (mainly) French merchandise there is! I don't know how bad farm subsidies are in the States (IMHO - almost all subsidies are bad), but they would really, truly have to go some to beat CAP.

The Horror... The Horror.....

Now, off for a pint.

Ah, but that would be a thing of beauty. Drop the US subsidies out of fairness to Australia, and utterly crush the French agriculturally with the power of the US bread-basket. Hey, the French farmers would either be striking or on socialist welfare anyhow, right?

Blindside, #144:

Thanks for the information about Australian economics! I think I will write the White House and at least urge that NAFTA be extended to cover Australia, or an equivalent treaty be made with you guys.

I had not realized Australia was *that* into manufacturing--guess I was thinking natural resources such as mining played as big a role in your economy. If I can find one, I think I'll get a book or two on Australian history, etc.

Appreciate your thoughts!

My President

Tony, I don't know the specifics on the EU CAP. I just assumed it was as stupid and distorting as US ag policy. If it's even worse, my condolences (and thanks for the 411)

Model4 (#147)

He didn't know for sure he'd be killing anyone, but he knew for sure he'd be increasing the odds of it happening.

I don't have too much time right now, but I wanted to remark on that really quickly. Until fairly recently, there had been little or no AIDS education in South Africa. Blame the government for that, not the people. Maybe that's what you were saying in the first place?

#155 zulubaby: I think that is exactly what he meant.

Southerner

If you want to read some Australian history, try "The Fatal Shore" by Robert Hughes - about the founding of the original colonies in OZ. Hard and harsh.

Peter Carey's recent "novel" about Ned Kelly, the irish bushwhacker is a good read too.

On sports - just a reminder that the Sydney Olympics were possibly the best ever, great fun for all who visited OZ. Done in style. And as usual, OZ won loads and loads of medals.

The current OZ cricket team is possibly the best team ever - even better than the teams that Bradman led. Holds the World Cup - again.

The rugby league team recently won their World Cup - no sweat.

Later this year, the rugby union team (different rules) is gonna win their World Cup - again !

Australian wine imports to the US are fast overtaking French wines. Quality is every bit as good, prices are excellent.

Foster's beer is owned by a Brit outfit these days. Don't drink it. It's like sex in a kayak - effing close to water.

Remember - OZ is a great place for a holiday. Some awesome sights, but watch out for all the spiders, snakes, poisonous trees, crocs, etc etc.

(And New Zealand is compact, spectacular and cheaper).

Plan your trip right - eg with Air New Zealand - and you can stop over en route for about another $200 in a Pacific paradise like the Cook Islands.

One final point. Most Aussies and Kiwis are fairly well-travelled, have seen more of Britain than most Brits, and probably a good deal of Europe. Plus probably a swing through the Far East - Thailand, India and Nepal maybe, Indonesia in the good days.

One thing all Aussies and Kiwis remember is the fire their troops went through in 2 World Wars, often alongside the Brits, the Canadians - and the Americans.

They have a proud history of fighting on the right side. John Howard's policy on Iraq is simply a continuation
of that history.

If you visit Australia (or New Zealand) you will be made very welcome. Don't need to stay in posh hotels - go downmarket a bit, eat out at possibly the widest range of restaurants on Planet Earth. Travel around, don't just take a package tour. Mix in with the Aussies (and maybe Kiwis) - and have a great time !

JohninLondon, #157--

Thanks for the recommendation of the book by Robert Hughes. I will see if I can find it on Amazon.

I took courses in Canadian and British history in college, and have travelled in both Canada and the UK. But the events of the last few weeks have made me realize I really want to know more about Australia than I now do. So I appreciate your tips.

Thanks again.

zulubaby: I can't even picture it (lack of AIDS education). Honest, think of that what you will. Now I know to lefties AIDS education is code for millions and billions in unaccountable aid money. But for me, acceptable education would be dude-man in a jeep (for areas not reached by radio or TV) driving from village to village with a message: "There's a disease that's killing millions, and you can catch it by sharing a needle or having unprotected sex with them. There is no cure."

That a government would refuse to put out this message in a timely fashion is vile beyond words. That this would not spread by word-of-mouth in months is hard to imagine, especially when accompanied by tales of all the dead. "Yeah, it's real, you'll die. Lost a brother and my friend lost a cousin." But then there are falsehoods about the disease that have spread widely too. It's sad beyond words.

Mom told me as a kid that some mushrooms are poisonous. Never plucked one from the ground and ate it to risk it. Word of plagues spread in the distant past, with people taking what precautions they thought were best at the time. That this has happened for so long and is still going on speaks of a horrible level of chaos and ignorance. But if the governments kept this from the people, that's millions of deaths deliberately on their hands.

Model4 (#159)

But for me, acceptable education would be dude-man in a jeep (for areas not reached by radio or TV) driving from village to village with a message: "There's a disease that's killing millions, and you can catch it by sharing a needle or having unprotected sex with them. There is no cure."

If only it were that simple. The ignorance about AIDS in South Africa is astounding, all beginning with Mbeki's refusal to acknowledge the link between HIV and AIDS, refusing treatment to pregnant mothers, insisting that treatment is more harmful than the disease itself, blaming it on TB, poverty, racism, and whatever you can think of. Mandela (finally) spoke out against Mbeki (backpeddled shortly thereafter) and took up the cause himself.

Another thing to remember is that when the Apartheid government was still in power, it was a hard sell to get the black South Africans to use condoms.

The government's initial denial of the risks associated with HIV allowed the virus to take hold in South Africa. In the early stages of the epidemic, many believed that AIDS was being used by white South Africans and foreigners to weaken South Africa's black population. In particular, many black South Africans associated AIDS prevention with the apartheid era's sterilization programs, and believed that the AIDS scare was being used to reduce the size of the African population by "fooling" them into wearing condoms.

Then of course we have to deal with the altogether bizarre belief that having sex with a virgin will cure one of AIDS. And on and on it goes. A massive, extremely aggressive AIDS education campaign needs to be launched in South Africa. It's all very distressing, but there is no denying that it is mostly ignorance (obviously through lack of education) that has led to the AIDS crisis in South Africa. AIDS sufferers also need access to the anti-retroviral drugs. Read this, about how the government was finally "coming round" to making the drugs available, as recently as December 2002! Mbeki had previously banned cheaper generic drugs from being imported into South Africa (ignore the sneering al-Guardian story header).

The South African government has not only been criticised for its refusal to buy anti-retrovirals. It is also under attack for banning the import of cheaper generic drugs to deal with Aids symptoms.

The Treatment Action Campaign (Tac) has led the charge to get anti-retrovirals and other Aids-related drugs to the less well-off by illegally importing 3,000 generic drugs from Thailand and dumping them on the health ministry.

The AIDS activists fighting hard to force the government to change its policies regarding AIDS. Some of Mbeki's comments from his State of the Nation speech last year:

He also touched briefly on Zimbabwe, but on the issue of health again played down the significance of HIV/Aids, blaming deaths on tuberculosis ahead of the virus.

TB is the secondary infection many Aids sufferers die from, but something President Mbeki is shy to connect to the HIV virus.

The country will make a "comprehensive response" to the health problems facing South Africa, President Mbeki said.

"We will further intensify the efforts to reduce the incidence of the leading killer disease, TB," he said, referring to Aids only later in the address.

Aaaargh!

Here's another interesting article from October 2001, and lots of articles to be found at AIDSchannel.org.