First! And Go Aussies!

Anyone who can post this elsewhere or here in the comments would be most appreciated. My company blocks all traffic from that part of the world. They're idiots.

We went to war alongside Britain and Australia. Who could ask for anyone more? The next campaign the so called anti war crowd will launch will be against Israel.

... It is time we held them accountable. No more must they lightly skip from one disreputable cause to another -- preaching woe in the first Gulf War, disaster in Afghanistan, apocalypse in Iraq -- and always warning of the catastrophic consequences of resisting evil.

They are even more insidious because they think evil does not exist! (Unless it's the clear evil of allowing priceless Sumerian artifacts to be looted)

It's been a good day (G'day?) for the Aussies.

I really like their Prime Minister Howard, too. He speaks his mind, rather than weasel words; he's a lot like President Bush that way. I saw that Howard is proposing that the French be removed as permanent veto members of the U.N. Security Council, or that some other kind of reform be adopted which would more accurately reflect the power of France in the world.

The free world has been fortunate to have leaders of such moral caliber in office in Australia, Great Britain and the United States.

Good money quote from the article:

This is the Vietnam of the Left.
 

G Funk

Emailed you the text of the article.

Something that helps me maintain my sanity when listenting to the NION left: They aren't simply wrong or stupid, they are on the other side.

But we are occupying Iraq! And all that looting? It's all the fault of the US Defense Department - they should have known it would happen. And as for the future, the Big Corporations have plans you know. Fast food, Big Oil, Western Ways. The Iraqi culture is ruined.
WAAAHHH!!!

The looney left will always be the ones who find gloom, doom, racism, sexism, homophobia, ageism, lookism, and general evil in anything the United States has done, is doing or will do in the future.

the Left - is a moral underclass

This is a terrific article. I have yet to see anything quite this thorough and well-constructed that systematically exposes the scaremongering and wrongheaded predictions in the US press.

My favorite quote (among the wrong predictions cited in the article): "Sue Wareham, Australian head of the Medical Association for Prevention of War, said the war would kill up to 460,000 people, and millions more 'if nuclear weapons are used'. "

To this I would add: the Maryland Renaissance Festival may result in several jousting-related injuries, and it may kill millions of people if nuclear weapons are used.

#10 r Funny. Sad, but true.

Semi OT - NPR was reporting on idiot protesters getting arrested yesterday for blocking access to Chevron - on the grounds that Chevron stands to benefit from the war with better oil contracts. How lame is that?! They just can't bear to stop protesting and admit the war is over & the good guys won.

(One employee who was inconvenienced said, "Hey, I'm against the war, I'm against Bush - but this war isn't about oil. Everybody uses oil - we all drove our cars to get here!" Pathetic.)

More OT - yesterday NPR reported on the violence at the Oakland port, saying, "Protesters accuse the port of shipping supplies to troops in Iraq." I wanted to smack her. "Accuse" them of supplying the troops? What the hell!

#9, Ellen

The Left has lost any ability to project what it is FOR, only what it is AGAINST. They have become the new reactionaries.

I think people are tired of the constant negativism of the Left. This is a golden opportunity for the anti-Left to capitalize on this sentiment.

#7 Celissa

Thank you very much. A very good read. I don't if any similar task could be completed regarding American pundits. Too much bandwidth would be required. ;)

#10, I would the say the left is an amoral underclass. You give them too much credit.

The sad thing is that the left is blinded by such intense hatred of what is right (pun intended) that they will never acknowledge the truths in this column. They are thinly disguised anti-semitics communists (that is redundant, I know) and I applaud the few journalists that bravely speak out.

I dunno, Occasional, a broken lance can cause some pretty nasty splinters.

'a broken lance'. I like that image. It's the embodiment of the left's arguments and protests against the war. And now they're picking up the biggest pieces and charging us on foot, hoping to unseat us. Sad, really.

The main problem I see with the "peace" crowd is a general ignorance of the true nature of the world fosterd by simple laziness. After a thin veneer of public education, they are then left with a generalized view of other cultures, governments and transnational institutions, and how all of these interact. Without a personal effort to go to the library and inform one's self, one is simply left with these generalizations, out of which no true meaning can be drawn.

What is more, they graft the legitimacy of of their own nation's institutions, which serve to keep peace and order, onto these transnational institutions (read UN) assuming that the constituants of said institutions strive for the same goals. Their multicultural view, bolstered by a habit of confering moral equivalence upon democracy and dictator alike, blinds them to true evil in the world. (Granted CNN is no help. Bastards.)

When operating with a worldview that that is both uninformed and motivated by an emotional response, however well intentioned, they thus conclude that to hinder another nation's development is morally wrong, even if that other nation or culture's stated intent is to harm us.

Add to this the general belief that war is the most immoral of human actions, and the result is a deep abhorance of using war to hinder another nation's development, even when that nation is an enemy that wishes to destroy us.

They simply must stop chattering amongst themselves in a vain effort to boost their egos, and get their asses to a library to begin making an effort at a well rounded self education. After all, isn't that what this great nation we call America founded on? Self reliance and a willingness not to be blinded by those who take it upon themselves to tell us what we should think and know.

They have willingly halted their own personal evolution, which began with their first baby steps and their first determined attempts to pronounce those most cherished of words: "Mommy" and "Daddy."

Occasional Reader #11,

Sue Wareham, Australian head of the Medical Association for Prevention of War, said the war would kill up to 460,000 people

Technically, she's correct though. It did kill up to 460,000 people, though the number was a lot closer to 0 then it was to 460,000.

What a great article - I will be sharing it with as many as I can. Many excellent quotes - my favorite already pointed out by #6. Man I love this blog, it restores my faith in humanity (had to get that out...)

#15 pattycake

They are thinly disguised anti-semitics communists (that is redundant, I know)

I am wondering about anti-semitism and pro-communism being redundant. My dad, a Muslim convert of seven years, always talks about the connection between Jewish thought and Communism. Please brace yourself because this is really weird: he truly believes the Nazis hated the Jews because the Jews were inclined to believe in that most "left-wing" of idealogies, Communism, while the Nazis of course were "right-wing." Personally I object since to me it seems Fascism and Communism are two sides of the same coin (and weren't the Nazis "National Socialists," anyway?). But anyway this is how he explains away the entire Holocaust.

Has anyone else heard of this theory? I do apologize for being the messenger for such a theory.

Also, isn't it odd that these Socialist-sympathizers so despise the very socially-democratic state of Israel?

Kim du Toit tells about his total disgust for the left:

[Link: www.kimdutoit.com...]

I share his sentiment.

Stop confusing me with facts! America--bad! Repressive maniac tyrants--good! The left will NEVER learn. They will welcome their masters and gladly don their chains of slavery.

Eva #20,

he truly believes the Nazis hated the Jews because the Jews were inclined to believe in that most "left-wing" of idealogies, Communism, while the Nazis of course were "right-wing."

Actually, this was a very popular thought among the Nazis as well, who saw the Bolsheviks as a largely Jewish group. There is some merit to this, as many Jews had prominent places in the Communist Revolution, since they saw it as a way to get rid of religion, and make themselves equal citizens of the USSR. Stalin's ascendance, and the consequent purges, decimated the Russian Jewish community and made communism harder to swallow for many. Many Jews also aligned themselves with communism since they saw Hitler as the greater evil; at the time, they were correct.

Also, I would note that this does not explain away the Holocaust. Differing ideologies should not lead to the murder of the opponents.

Jews do tend to be left-of-center though, because they have a great deal of empathy for the downtrodden, having been downtrodden ourselves for much of our history.

Also, I wouldn't emphasize that Nazi = National Socialism. The focus of Nazism was very much on the National part of the story, not on the Socialist part. And they are a classic fascist state; though, in many ways, communist states were as well.

How is it that people priding themselves on morality in fact aided a genocidal killer, and not his victims? How is it they now watch Iraqis celebrate their liberation, and feel . . . sad?

Because they're moral idiots and losers (although some of them are also as evil as that genocidal killer).

If you agree with the article, don't be shy in sharing your thoughts with the Herald Sun. Positive feedback is always appreciated. Here's what I wrote 'em:

Dear Herald Sun,

As an Aussie living in the United States, it does my heart proud to read Andrew Bolt's comments.

(I am forwarding his article to everyone I know, and am asking them to do the same.)

When people here tell me they hear some Australians are against the war, against liberation, against the end of 30 years of rape and torture and murder, it fills me with deep, deep shame.

These are not true Australians, I explain.

These are not the Australians I grew up with who revere freedom, who revere the plucky underdog (in this case the underdog is the battered, bruised and cowered PEOPLE OF IRAQ), who revere Australia's long and illustrious alliance with the other great moral leaders of the world: U.S.A. and Great Britain.

These are not true Aussies, not true Diggers, not true patriots, not true allies, not true pursuers of justice.

The Scriptures exhort us to run, run after Justice.

Nowhere does it say run, run after dictators, coddle them, trash the values of your forefathers and mothers, and denigrate those who wish to bring peace to a shattered and bloody region of the world.

Kudos, Andrew Bolt.

Run and hide, elitist fools.

Or have the courage to say you were wrong.

To Occasional Reader #11--

Good point. In addition, Ms. Wareham neglected to add that if a rather large asteroid had collided with earth during the Iraqi war, life on this planet might have come to an end.

And, of course, it would have been the fault of the Americans and the Jews.

I love reading these articles! It is so satisfying. But, as is often the case with fanatics, many on the left seem woefully unable to learn from experience.

I won't speak on behalf of all people on the "left", but I can tell you with some degree of certainty, the it is not a moral underclass. Take for instance the "right" and what they call "moral clarity" a sure definition of "good vs. evil." It is a fundementalist notion that good and evil always fall into certain categories, but one can rack their brain thinking of one "thing" which always good and always evil. Take for instance murder. Its situational whether or not its considered "good or evil" and opinions vary. Now I'm going to work within the confines of the Bible to make my point, so all the fundementalists will know I speak with God's voice when I say this:

Its not a matter of moral equivalency, as you guys like to finger point the left for, but rather of hypocrisy. Don't do what you hate. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. I take it I'm speaking to the masochist right, preachers of the Cocksure Gospel of Freedom, the Free Man's Burden and/or the Golden Rule as it applies to the self destructive. If you wish to fight evil and punish the guilty then by biblical standards, you are the devil. The Great Satan...

The point is that the division of good/evil is arbitrary, and notions change as cultures evolve.. there are entire Eastern philosophies which refuse to make the distinction.. political and economic savvy, the right has in spades, but it is completely devoid of any notion of morality outside the benefits of personal gratification. You are Caesar's hegemony born again, with new barbarians to fight and an equally corrupt parliament to consume itself. Good luck, time is running out, 25-40 years more of this and America will be a living testement of the lessons never learned by western culture and Rome. Good riddance, to stupid ideas, lack of foresight, and unbridaled greed.

#23,

I'd just like to say that the Nazis did indeed have a socialist element in their party. By the end of the 1920's, the party was split between the SA, who represented this element, and Hitler's group which began to side more with the industrialists who could bring about a lot of financial and political capital. The SA believed in the revolt not of the working class, but of the Aryan working class, specifically. The SA leaders were executed during the great Nazi purge in Night of the Long Knives in 1934, and the organization was absorbed into the SS and other elements of the party.

They weren't merely wrong.

They were in the wrong.

One could write an 800 page book explaining the motivations, history, ideologies and goals of the leaders of the anti-war movement. But the simple truth is that they are socialists and their main goal is to destroy capitalism.

Now that we are aware of the socialists' anti-American stance, we can start putting a stake into this polical vampire by defeating the Democratic Party in the 2004 elections. Socialism is driving the Democratic machine and it's time they've been taken to the woodshed (voting booth) and taught a lesson.

#27 Village Idiot

Now that's some of the most useless Bullshit I've seen in sometime. You are a waste of DNA you clueless imbecile...

#27

Is that the best you can do?

I just scanned your rant. If one strips away the sarcasm, ideological phrases and name calling, all that is left of your bumbling wordage is empty space.

#30 - Alf

Interesting, how all this hullaballoo which started with September 11th, and travelled through Afganistan and Iraq (on to Syria? can I get a cheer for knocking over Syria?) has polarized the left and right to such a great deal. "Support our troops" being the mantra of the right, while cutting back veteran's benefits in the name of capitalism. "Kill for 1.30 a gallon, fuck you upon homecoming." Anyways now that socialism, and leftist ideas are being deemed "unamerican" the right will no doubt use the political leverage extracted from the fear and sympathy of 9.11 to push past a repressive new freedom which doesn't allow for much range of opinion... the new Hussein will be a white man, with a deep pocket, standing on the top of a black pyramid, praising christ.

#31 Bloomer

You get to the point quicker than I do. Great. You made me laugh, too. Thanks.

Hey.. I'm just saying the Devil is the punishes evil, humanity's history is replete with moral claritists who claimed they worshipped God while creating a hell of earth, and taking on all the attributes of satan. Looks like its happening again because you people have all the self-awareness of a gnat on acid.

#33 what crap u r talking.

repression of freedom - where....?

And if it represses muslims from all their dirty tricks - GOOD

[Link: www.Assyrianchristians.com...]

Protester Discovered Truth in Iraq

I Was Wrong About War
By Ken Joseph, Jr.

Amman, Jordan--I was wrong. I had opposed the war on Iraq in my radio program, on television and in my regular columns--and I participated in demonstrations. But a visit to relatives in Baghdad radically changed my mind.

I am an Assyrian Christian, born and raised in Japan, where my father had moved after World War II to help rebuild the country. He was a Protestant minister, and so am I.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age--how my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust settling finally in Chicago. There are some 6 million Assyrians now, about 2.5 million in Iraq and the rest scattered across the world. Without a country and rights even in our native land, it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored.

A few weeks ago, I traveled to Iraq with supplies for our church and family. This was my first visit ever to the land of my forefathers. The first order of business was to attend church. During a simple meal for peace activists after the service, an older man sounded me out carefully.

Finally he felt free to talk: There is something you should know--we didnt want to be here tonight. When the gather for a Peace Service, we said we didn't want to come because we don't want peace. We want the war to come. What in the world are you talking about? I blurted. And thus began a strange odyssey that shattered my convictions. At the same time, it gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.

Because of my invitation as a religious person, and family connections, I was spared the government snoops who ordinarily tail foreigners 24 hours a day. This allowed me to see and hear amazing things as I stayed in the homes of several relatives. The head of our tribe urged me not to remain with my people during its time of trial but instead go out and tell the world about the nightmare ordinary Iraqis are going through.

I was to tell the world about the terror on the faces of my family when a stranger knocked at the door. Look at our lives! they said. We live like animals--no food, no car, no telephone, no job--and, most of all, they wanted this war. You can not imagine what it is to live like this for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine lest we would lose our minds.

But I realized in every household that someone had already lost his or her mind; in other societies such a person would be in a mental hospital. I also realized that there wasn't a household that did not mourn at least one family member who had become a victim of this police state.

I wept with relatives whose son just screamed all day long. I cried with a relative who had lost his wife. Yet another left home every day for a "job" where he had nothing to do. Still another had lost a son to war and a husband to alcoholism.

As I observed the slow death of a people without hope, Saddam Hussein seemed omnipresent. There were his statues; posters showed him with his hand outstretched or firing his rifle, or wearing an Arab headdress. These images seemed to be on every wall, in the middle of the road, in homes. Everything will be all right when the war is over, people told me. No matter how bad it is, we will not all die. Twelve years ago, it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war, and we want it now.

When I told members of my family that some sort of compromise with Iraq was being worked out at the United Nations, they reacted not with joy but anger: Only war will get out of our present condition.

This reminded me of the stories I heard from older Japanese who had welcomed the sight of American B-29 bombers in the skies over their country as a sign that the war was coming to an end. True, these planes brought destruction--but also hope.

I felt terrible about having been against the war without bothering to ask what the Iraqis wanted. Tears streamed down my face as I lay in my bed in a tiny Baghdad house crowded in with 10 other people of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted, all without hope. I thought, "How dare I claim to speak for people I had not even asked what they wanted?"

Then I began a strange journey to let the world know of the true situation in Iraq, just as my tribe had begged me to. With great risk to myself and those who had told their stories and allowed my camera into their homes, I videotaped their plight. But would I get that tape out of the country?

To make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of the oppressed Assyrian minority, I spoke to dozens of other people, all terrified. Over and over, they told me: "We would be killed for speaking like this." Yet they did speak, though only in private homes or when other Iraqis had assured them that no government minder was watching over me.

I spoke with a former army member, with someone working for the police, with taxi drivers, store owners, mothers and government officials. All had the same message: "Please bring on the war. We may lose our lives, but for our children's sake, please, please end our misery."

On my last day in Baghdad, I saw soldiers putting up sandbags. By their body language, these men made it clear that they dared not speak but hated their work; they were unmistakably on the side of the common people. I wondered how my relatives felt about the United States and Britain. Their feelings were mixed. They have no love for the allies--but they trust them.

"We are not afraid of them. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people, I was told. "What we are afraid of is what Saddam and the Baath Party will do when the war begins."

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place--the border, where crying members of my family sent me off. The taxi fares from Baghdad to Amman had risen within one day from $100 to $300, to $500 and then to $1,000 by nightfall.

My driver looked on anxiously as a border guard patted me down. He found my videotapes, and I thought: It's all over! For once I experienced what my relatives were going through 365 days a year--sheer terror. Quietly, the officer laid the tapes on one another. Then he looked at me--was it with sadness or with anger? Who knows? He clinically shook his head and without a word handed all the tapes back to me. He didn't have to say anything. He spoke the only language left to these imprisoned Iraqis--the silent language of human kindness.

"Please take these tapes and show them to the world," was his silent message. "Please help us...and hurry!"

The Rev. Ken Joseph Jr. directs Assyrianchristians.com and is currently completing the book, I Was Wrong, and speaking about his experience in Iraq.

# 35 YEAH I know what you mean Clintooonnn
and all the PC mantra we have been force fed for the past 30 years

#27

You are not very coherent. Perhaps it's no loss. But I note that you say

but one can rack their brain thinking of one "thing" which always good and always evil.

Might I suggest that torturing babies is always evil? And rescuing tortured babies is always good? Or do you disagree?

Crusade Now -

Its simply abominable that such ignorant fools like you can exist. The point is you can, and you must in order for this to be a free country, so...

true freedom == absolute tolerance

freedom is tolerating things you don't like, even dirty, tricky muslims.. dig?

#27 CommuNaziIslamabad said:

Take for instance murder. Its situational whether or not its considered "good or evil" and opinions vary.

Murder is usually defined as an immoral killing. Killing people is not always murder. You do not seem to know the difference between the definitions of killing and murder.

CommuNaziIslamabad also says:

The point is that the division of good/evil is arbitrary and notions change as cultures evolve

I doubt very few people here believe that statement as well. The vast majority of Christians for instance (and many Jews, deist and other faiths as well) do not agree with your premise. What is Good and Evil is determined by God and revealed to man through his prophets on earth.

Just because there are differing opinions on what is good and evil does not mean that all opinions on the subject are equally valid. There are some people who opine that man never walked on the moon. Other people opine that man has. Even though they have differing opinions, only one is correct. The other is wrong. What is true for historic or scientific opinion is true as well for moral opinion. We may not always be able to prove what is truth, but that does not make truth (including moral truth) arbitrary. It just makes opinion of truth arbitrary.

#27:

Now I'm going to work within the confines of the Bible to make my point, so all the fundementalists will know I speak with God's voice when I say this

Actually, I'm an atheist. Others who regularly post here are Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, and even a few Muslims. Nice try.

If you wish to fight evil and punish the guilty then by biblical standards, you are the devil. The Great Satan...

I'm an atheist, but I'm not unfamiliar with the bible. That must be a rather... unusual edition of the book that you're citing.

Don't do what you hate. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Okily dokily, neighborooni. Here's what I want others to do unto me; if perchance I find myself living in a fascist police state that imprisons toddlers and gasses entire villages, please come rescue me. Use military force if necessary.

I take it I'm speaking to the masochist right, preachers of the Cocksure Gospel of Freedom, the Free Man's Burden and/or the Golden Rule as it applies to the self destructive.

Um, didn't you just cite the golden rule yourself?

The point is that the division of good/evil is arbitrary, and notions change as cultures evolve

To some extent, believe it or not, I agree with you. However, I have no trouble at all in describing a regime that drops political dissidents into plastic shredders as "evil". I have no trouble at all describing a dictator who imprisons toddlers for the perceived political disloyalty of their parents as "evil".

political and economic savvy, the right has in spades, but it is completely devoid of any notion of morality outside the benefits of personal gratification

The right has no notion of morality??? Are you kidding? The right has TONS of notions of morality. I'm not sure I agree with all of them (although I do to a much greater extent than I used to), but it's got 'em.

You are Caesar's hegemony born again

Really? Where are our imperial tax collectors, exacting tribute from the conquered? Isn't it odd that the Gauls, I mean the Filipinos, managed to get rid of our legions at Clark Airfield and Subic Bay just by demanding that they leave?

How is it that people priding themselves on morality in fact aided a genocidal killer, and not his victims? How is it they now watch Iraqis celebrate their liberation, and feel . . . sad?

Easy: the moonbats hate Bush and so they play ostrich when Bush is proven right.

#33 sin

I'm a vet. It's a myth that vets are getting screwed. Matter of fact, the VA gave me a lot in return when I returned to civilian life. I received excellent medical care, respect and tuition aid to complete college. Are there some vets who think they got screwed? Sure. You'll find people like that in every walk of life.

I know what I'm talking about regarding the anti-war leaders. I used to be in bed with those critters. Literally. The anti-war loves to use vets. I've seen them use some vets who were mentally ill. The anti-war people like to parade them in order to illicit sympathy from those who are not familiar with the military or vets.

Yes, it's about socialism v.s. capitalism. This is not name calling. This is a fact.

You want socialism? That's your choice.

I choose a free market.

By the way, you don't have to get into name calling with me. It's not necessary and there is too much of that going on anyways.

#27
I think you seem sincere in your beliefs but as long as you hold them, you will not be able to act responsibly as a citizen or as a parent or, even, as a friend.

Good and evil are not arbitrary. Notions do not change as cultures evolve. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis (I cannot recommend his "Aboliton of Man" highly enough to those who are interested in a highly readable introduction to the argument that good and evil are absolutes)--

Where is there a culture that thinks cowardice on the battlefield is a good thing? Where is there a culture that thinks men should have all the women that they want (while moslems may have 4 wives and Americans only 1 , that is a difference of degree rather than kind. We agree that you can't just go off and do what you want with whomever)

Murder is not situational. Self-defense is not murder. It is good to get clear about terms and what they mean. Then we can talk!

#39 Halflife

This is actually (despite our differences) the stuff of high philosophy, the kind of crap I love to read about. I order to make something "always good" or "always bad" you must *define* it in terms of good and bad. Torture is a charged word, its *bad* for hurting somebody, you can make hurting somebody into a an intrinsically good thing as well, say if you're going for surgery, or something. Of course surgery is always *good*, but only because its defined in terms of being good. The fact is by saying "torturing babies"

...

you are actually saying:

hurting babies in a bad way. You have to define it in terms of *bad* to make something bad... coherent enough?

Don't the J-E-W-S run the left as well as the neo-cons?

There looks there is a combination of forces of J-E-W-S from both sides of the political arena going after mainstream sensibilities.

Typical J-E-W-S.

/sarcasm off.

-> 35

This is the mindset of those who oppose us.

He is throwing out a strawman here, trying to claim that the Bible says we should be peaceful and never wage war - people like this usually have never read the Bible, but have about 4 or 5 choice, out-of-context passages to quote to show us the error of our hypocritical ways.

In the same breath, while using the Bible to castigate us (assuming for some reason that anyone who supported the war or requents this site is a Christian), he then goes on to say that there is no such thing as evil ... so in one fell post, he say we're damned (literally) hypocrites for supporting the war and claims that what we did wasn't good anyway, because since there is no such thing as evil, then Saddam can't be it ... only in our own deluded, western, hamburger & Britney Spears-induced little gnat minds can this be seen as a liberation from a evil, repressive regime.

Or to be more concise
- US = bad
- Stalinist dictatorships = not bad

#40

true freedom == absolute tolerance

Tell that to someone who lost loved ones to the likes of Ted Bundy or Jeffry Dahmer! Tell that to the family and friends of those who died in the 9/11 attacks! Tell that to a Holocaust survivor! Get told off in each case!

GAZE

#46 Sin

Yes. I am aware of the semantic problems. See other people's comments vis-a-vis "murder," above. But the solution is to get even more concrete. It's trivial to come up with an instance of "hurting babies in a bad way," and we need only one such instance. Let's see - burning a baby with a cigarette. I think everyone (except perhaps Saddam and his ilk) would agree that's wrong. It is a universally recognized evil.

What you're saying is that it's hard to define "evil" as an abstract term in a meaningful way, because words are slippery and self-referential. True. But the inability to define something does not prove that the thing does not exist. Take G-d, for example...

Occaisional Reader:

Actually, I'm an atheist. Others who regularly post here are Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, and even a few Muslims. Nice try.

-I've been notices a lot of Crusader Tammy and The Clenched fist of Jesus people bantering about the obscenity that is Islam. Quite frankly it sickens me.

I'm an atheist, but I'm not unfamiliar with the bible. That must be a rather... unusual edition of the book that you're citing.

-Now... I've read the Bible, in both the original Hebrew and the original Greek, both of which are languages I can read, and the notion of a punishing deity is extraneous to them, but somehow not to fundementalist christians, who take notions of "the furnace" literally. Fact: the devil punishes the evil.

Okily dokily, neighborooni. Here's what I want others to do unto me; if perchance I find myself living in a fascist police state that imprisons toddlers and gasses entire villages, please come rescue me. Use military force if necessary.

-Cultures go through periods of evolution and subsequent demise, when Christian Europe was a feudal fistocracy the Muslim world was the very height of "civilization", in relative terms of course.

I take it I'm speaking to the masochist right, preachers of the Cocksure Gospel of Freedom, the Free Man's Burden and/or the Golden Rule as it applies to the self destructive.

-Um, didn't you just cite the golden rule yourself?

Yes, and only masochist would be mean to others if thats what he himself wanted. See? even the golden rule isn't always "good". My point entirely.

To some extent, believe it or not, I agree with you. However, I have no trouble at all in describing a regime that drops political dissidents into plastic shredders as "evil". I have no trouble at all describing a dictator who imprisons toddlers for the perceived political disloyalty of their parents as "evil".

*shrug* History has seen worse, and will see worse, I can assure you. If this "evil" bastard didn't live in oil rich territory we diplomify his ass. Kim Jong?
political and economic savvy, the right has in spades, but it is completely devoid of any notion of morality outside the benefits of personal gratification

Anyways..

#46

Addendum - I agree with Korora in #49. It's absurd to say that "true freedom == absolute tolerance." If you truly believe that, you have no morals whatsoever. If you truly believe that, you are suggesting we should all stand back and let future Hitlers and Jeffrey Dahmers murder as many people as they like. We should disband the police force as well as the FBI, CIA, and the military.

But I don't think you believe that. You're just trolling.

Finally, stop assuming things about the people who post here. You have no idea what most of us believe in, either in the political or the religious arena.

To Careworm -

*sigh* I am familiar with the Bible, the Old Testement laws were necessary to the culture at the time. This is because Ancient Cultures tended to be highly unsanitary, and so it was a health concern to be circumsized or not have sex with temple prostitute, and to clean your food in an appropriate way. Meanwhile, it is no longer the case. Morality in this context is then subject to innovation, and as such **not** absolute..

As for good/evil. Burning a baby with a cigarette is a crude but semi-effective way to cauderize a wound perhaps. *shrug* you have to define it in terms of *badness* it doesn't exist outside the mind.

#40

"true freedom == absolute tolerance"

No, that equals ANARCHY.

If anarchy reigned, we could kill you in a heartbeat and what would be the ramifications? Quite possibly none whatsoever.

Good way to build a society?

#48   Desert Rat 

You're absolutely right about the Bible and its stance on war.

Hell, most people mistranslate: Thou Shalt Not Kill.

I can tell you as someone who reads Hebrew, it doesn't say that at all.

It says: Thou Shall Not Murder.

Big, big difference.

#51

You are referring to the Christian's version of the Golden Rule. The original (Hillel) said: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to others." So much for your masochists.

Anyway, I have better things to do than feed a troll who doesn't even believe what he is saying. -oo

#27 CNI

It is a fundementalist notion that good and evil always fall into certain categories, but one can rack their brain thinking of one "thing" which always good and always evil. Take for instance murder

I disagree. Killing is not always evil, but the subset of killing murder always is...unless you don't make the distintion...as many of the left don't.

The point is that the division of good/evil is arbitrary, and notions change as cultures evolve..

Notions of good and evil may indeed change. However, the culture we're talking about is the one that exists here and now, in the US. No one except the deluded and discredited Left and their moral relativism and situational ethics believes Saddam's regime is anything BUT evil. Since you don't believe in evil, I guess he's an okay guy in your book? The refusal to believe in good and evil is one of the underlying causes of the moral decay of the left. If you have no standards, no guide, no rules, anything goes, and it's all just dandy.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

The Golden Rule is a marvellous way to live...as long as everybody lives by it. But, whattaya know, not everybody does. I don't think God wants us to sit still and get ourselves wiped out by those who serve evil...not when He's given us the will and the means to do something about it.

.. there are entire Eastern philosophies which refuse to make the distinction..

Good for them. But this nation was not founded on Eastern philosophies, so they have no bearing...or are you saying they're correct because they disagree with US policy of strong defense? Too bad; like I said, they're irrelevant.

...the right...is completely devoid of any notion of morality outside the benefits of personal gratification.

If there is no good or evil, how can there be morality? It's interesting to note that the Left applies strict notions of morality to the US, but not to murderous torturing dictators...or, indeed, to itself. Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like we have an addition to Amendment X: The standards cited by the Left apply only to those the Left says they do.

Note: "Sin" is posting its comments from the State University of New York in Buffalo.

You are wasting your time answering this troll. Please ignore it.

And #27 is the same troll.

I think it's best not to argue with self-proclaimed Bible experts.

David Koresh also had a knack for memorizing large portions of the Old and New Testament. He loved nothing more than being the center of attention.

#52 -

I was talking about ideas, philosophies etc.. certain behaviors should be punished and dealth with, but ideally such things don't *have to* happen. They happen because of unstable people, unstable elements, and unstable circumstances, which we should investigate and understand and root out. Freedom is not some arbitrary notion, it is dependant on tolerance, not for actions (sin is an action done, not a philosophy), I'm just saying that we are losing our notions of tolerance to notions of cultural identity and nationalism. And its "bad" in my opinion.. to my mind.. see? I do have morals. I just don't think its as cut and dry as 4000 year old book tells us it is. That goes for every religion, except Chasidic Judiasim, Sufiism, and Greek Orthodox Christians because they have everything figured out.

Killing: Good killing= liberation
Bad Killing= murder

There is a distinction, only because charged within the idea/definition of the word, is good killing and bad killing. How is it the US's business to support foreign dictatorships, supply them with chemical weapons (for which we & Iraq are being sued by Iran), then do a 180, and say hey this guy is evil. Especially when its the same people, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Ashcroft.. *shrug* these are your shortsighted moralists... And who the hell cares where I'm posting from. Do you have Fedayeen stationed here? Gimme a break.. you'll say anything to marginalize a group of people.. I'm just saying, morality should = circumstance & consequence. Circumstance, we took it upon ourself to invade an Arab power, consequence... the world and the Arab leaders think we're bullies. Elements with the EU are currently organizing a ban on all American exports, much the way they squeezed South Africa out of Apartheid... the future is a scary place. Thats all I'm saying.

Saddam is gone, and his worst weapons will be found and destroyed.

And not in the way Sadd*mn would have destroyed them.

Good riddance, to stupid ideas, lack of foresight, and unbridaled greed.

WHAT?

Hillary died and no one told me?

I'm ever-so pissed!

Reminder: Please do not feed "Sin," the troll from the State University of New York at Buffalo. It is a complete waste of time. (Not to mention a waste of our disk space and bandwidth.)

Most Leftists can't admit it when they are wrong. Since they often do not believe in individual accountability or responsibility this is not surprising.

To lump all of us who teach as supporters of Sadam is ludicrious. You should know better than to generalize like that.

Mmmmm.. Feed me. Yum yum. Mmmm. Susan, I do believe in individual accountability & responsibility (these are the same thing of course), I don't believe in spreading hatred and ignorance about other cultures as a means of expressing cultural superiority. That is not my notion of freedom. I don't think we've liberated Iraq yet, I think a liberated Iraq requires more than a military campaign. They must be free from "terror" not just Saddam Hussein... and while they have no law and no government, you cannot use the term "liberated" to describe them.

#40 Sin

true freedom = absolute tolerance

So, let me get this straight. According to your equation, if someone comes at me with a knife, I'm simply supposed to tolerate him absolutely and therefore we both live in true freedom.

Absolute BS.

You should know that when the old testament was translated, the phrase, "Thou shalt not kill." was mis-translated. If that were true, then we wouldn't even be allowed to defend ourselves. The original commandment in hebrew was/is, "Thou shall not murder."

There is a huge difference between kill and murder.

It seems that you've spent so many moons with your nose in philosophy books that you're completely confused as to what is good and evil.

I must be terribly dangerous for you driving a car, seeing as how to you, the entire world is gray.

#27

You are so very far off the mark in your assessment. Almost from the first sentence.

You may make the decision that right/wrong are completely arbitrary. At best you are playing semantics, at worst you are lying.

The left engages in the exact form of behaviour and thinking that it screeches against. Even you, in your even, though self-righteous tone are doing it. You have made a distinct judgement on what philosophies are good vs. those unworthy...all the while espousing that such distinctions are arbitrary.

You could at least be honest in saying that you have no problem deciding good v. bad...you just have a problem when others with whom you disagree do it.

Please spare the "there is no good...there is no evil" mantra. Even you don't believe it. For if you really, truly believed such a thing, you'd not be protesting. You would accept the notion that different cultures have different values/customs and that ALL cultures are valid even the ones against which you protest...but that puts you in a little bit of a Catch-22, no?

A touch of hypocrisy in that.

Toodles~

Thanks Charles.

However, it was fun watching him get squished by so many of us using the same irrefutably logical boot.

Four Corners wickedly whispered this was the work of "young neo-conservatives (who) were almost all Jews" with "tentacles in Congress, in think tanks, in newspaper offices".

It's all about the Jews attempting to conquer the world? I've heard that bull2@#$ before.

Charles: I don't think I'd qualify Sin/CommuNaziIslamabad as a "troll" in the classic sense. He/she is sticking around, attempting to make arguments. They're stupid arguments, but he/she is at least trying.

But he/she does get big points off for falsely posting under multiple names. (Isn't there something in Leviticus prohibiting that?)

#51:

-I've been notices a lot of Crusader Tammy and The Clenched fist of Jesus people bantering about the obscenity that is Islam. Quite frankly it sickens me.

It's called an open forum. As to the obscenity that is Islam... have you checked out memri.org at all? Are you aware of a trifling little incident that happened on 9/11/01? Yes, not ALL Muslims are like this, etc. etc; but how blind do you have to be not to see that violent intolerance is a HUGE problem running through Islam worldwide?

-Now... I've read the Bible, in both the original Hebrew and the original Greek, both of which are languages I can read,

How wonderful for you.

the notion of a punishing deity is extraneous to them, but somehow not to fundementalist christians, who take notions of "the furnace" literally. Fact: the devil punishes the evil.

That's nice. But it's not the point I was responding to. You had said, "If you wish to fight evil and punish the guilty then by biblical standards, you are the devil." That is a very different assertion from the one you're making here. Please attempt to argue honestly.

Cultures go through periods of evolution and subsequent demise, when Christian Europe was a feudal fistocracy the Muslim world was the very height of "civilization", in relative terms of course.

Ummm... and your point is...? I had stated that I would support being rescued from a fascist police state by military force. You responded with this. You make no attempt to establish a connection between the two thoughts.

Yes, and only masochist would be mean to others if thats what he himself wanted. See? even the golden rule isn't always "good". My point entirely.

No, when you originally cited the golden rule, you were in the middle of accusing us "right" types of hypocrisy. (You seem to enjoy the noted Scientologist technique of "curving the question".) Let's be clear; we want a free society for ourselves, we're in favor of free societies for others. Where's the hypocrisy?

*shrug* History has seen worse, and will see worse, I can assure you.

Again, what's your point? Do you disagree that a regime that imprisons toddlers for their parents' political disloyalty can fairly be described as "evil", or don't you? Is your answer to all that merely to shrug and say "history has seen worse"? How can that attitude not be described as a combination of apathy and moral cowardice?

If this "evil" bastard didn't live in oil rich territory we diplomify his ass. Kim Jong?

We'd diplomify his ass... you mean like we're doing, in spades, with the oil-rich, terrorist-sponsoring Saudis? Why haven't we invaded them, they've got oil up the whazoo! And as for Kim Jong Il--do think that maybe, just maybe, the fact that the NorKors already have nuclear weapons just might dictate a different approach from the Bush administration? So perhaps it's not just all "about oil" after all, hmmm.

Oh, and by the way, in #61:

How is it the US's business to support foreign dictatorships, supply them with chemical weapons (for which we & Iraq are being sued by Iran), then do a 180, and say hey this guy is evil.

Well, TheOtherCheek... sorry, today's Tuesday, that means your name is either Sin or CommuNaziIslamabad
(Charles, maybe you have a point after all)... I seem to recall you making this argument just yesterday. Just for the record; no, the US did not "supply them with chemical weapons", Iraq purchased commerically available industrial chemicals such as pesticides from the US as well as a host of other nations (including the peace-loving French and Germans), which they later processed into chemical weapons.

Oh, but if we're being sued by IRAN for it, hey, it must be true. The mullahs would never lie.

That is the problem. You think your arguments are irrefutable because you misinterpret mine and reconstruct them into something that is inherently wrong. Meanwhile you jump all over me when I do the same thing. Time will stamp humanity of the stain, this kind of reasoning leaves on society at large. But not before a major cataclysm, I promise you. You cannot claim your vision of right/wrong to be the one and only moral aesthetic without doing so at the expense of other cultures and belief systems. You don't seem to care, which I why I fear conservative governments, while pitying the liberals. I fall in neither category. But judging from the sheer vicious self-interest in your tones and arguments, I doubt very highly any of you are taken seriously outside of the confines of your little culture war haven. I don't lump all of you into that category, but quite a few of you do fit in there and the US vs THEM mentality promulgated by the Bush administration. The Islam-bashing, Gospel of Mammon preaching the Free Man's Burden. You dehumanize those you disagree with at you own expense.. history has taught us that this kind of mentality results in self inflicted doom.

I change my name for metaphoric profundity. You can not simply sim-salah-bim a pesticide into VX, I'll leave you with that notion to ponder. Basically your points thrive on reason, mine on imagination. I can imagine a better future, you want to cause and effect. Shortsighted vs. farsighted. *Shrug*... Tomorrow I'll ALBION, great English Giant of Power.. who knows..

#74: you've now slipped entirely into self-parody. "Metaphoric profundity", mmmm.

Charles; you were right, he's a troll.

#74 Sin

"Dawn take you … and be stone to you!" Gandalf the Grey

You can not simply sim-salah-bim a pesticide into VX

Quite true. It helps to have German and French chemists on hand.

I've found that those who decide to work hard at blurring the lines between right and wrong are the ones that tend to do things that are wrong. I'd give a dime to find out what Sin is into.

With enough adjectives in the toolbox, one could craft a statement that says everything, and yet nothing. Does anyone but me notice that philosophers tend not to have jobs, unless they are in the classroom turning young people's skulls to mush?

Question:

If freedom == absolute tolerance, how come all those tolerant liberals won't tolerate my making any money, and insist on taking more and more of it away from me?

Just a tax day thought.

Absolute tolerance is not freedom. How do you "tolerate"
someone who wants to take away your human rights?

How do you "tolerate" serial killers, child molesters, extortionists?

What a moronic statement.

Many in the left are in denial.

Torture room? Nope, just dead from the Iran-Iraq war that that evil Rumsfeld supported Iraq on.

Cheering the fall (literal and metaphorical) of Saddam? Photo-staged event from people taking time out from looting Iraq. (It's interesting that it's the left, not the right, badmouthing Iraqis considering who's calling whom racist)

Quick military victory? So did Germany have with conquering France, it doesn't make it right.

Here I was all wound up in wanting to respond too. The only comment I have not covered very well by Occasional Reader is this:

#40 Sin

true freedom == absolute tolerance

And the definition please!

tol·er·ance n.
1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
2a. Leeway for variation from a standard.
2b. The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent.

You subscibe to the first definition and I subscribe to the second

Sin wrote:

Basically your points thrive on reason, mine on imagination.

That neatly sums up the Left's inability to see what should be clear to a bright 6 year old. They live, not in a world in which reason and law acts as a check on flawed human beings, but in a dreamworld of their own creation, where someday, if the right people (them) are running things, there will be no pain or sorrow or inequality, human nature will be remade and we'll all have ice cream for dinner every night. Of course, if a million or two or half a billion incorrect and stubborn people stand in the way of the creation of this paradise, they have to be done away with for the good of everyone else.

Dictators are people with a notable talent for disregarding reason and focusing on imagination. How many of his fellow bums in Vienna thought young Adolf was a raving loon when he told them of his dreams of running a Jew-free Europe. Ach, that Hitler, what an imagination he has! And you may say he's a dreamer, but he's not the only one. Saddam dreamt of being a new Saladin and reuniting the Arab world. Pol Pot dreamt of creating a rural Utopia, which meant ridding Cambodia of intellectuals (i.e. everyone who wore glasses). Dictators may be moral monsters, but you can't say they don't have "the vision thing" going for them.

And if you think, Sin, that there is nothing that can be considered wrong under all circumstances, I have one word for you: Rape.

Actually, I have two more words for you: moral cretin.

Donna V. -

One thing you can say for the ClearGuidance Kidz: they are relatively lacking in guile. They don't have the leftist knack for changing the subject, or sneering in the face of reality. But I think these comments from ClearGuidance Watch speak to the innermost repressed feelings of Ted Rall:

I am really worried abt Baghdad (where are all the Armies) ... And Aljazeera is saying that Americans forces now even in front of Palestine Hotel. :-( Where are all the RGs and SRGs and Fidhayeens. Have they deserted? ... I am really worried and i was really disturbed to see the Iraqis celebrating in the streets. What does they think? That Americans are there to Liberate them, Shame on them...

damn rawfida kafir dogs of hellfire....the rawfida dogs are celebrating in the streets shouting out "we are u s a"

We have a long way to go..all this disunity and lack of knowledge of islaam is wiping us out ...

Donna V.,

Like I said in the other thread with Troll from Ireland,

The Intellectual and Moral Retardation of (Today's) Leftism.

A truly frightening thing to behold.

Susan: You have done an admirable job in taking a cluestick to VFI, although it never seems to sink in,...,

Glen: I followed your link to CG to see how the kidz are holding up these days. Reading CG, I get the same weird feeling I get when reading a Pilger column: I want to laugh and puke at the same time. If you scroll down far enough, a sensible poster actually shows up, who says Muslims should forget fighting the infidel and focus on fighting the inner self. He tells his comrades that they should emulate the Jews, get educated and become doctors, engineers, and so on. Of course, he's trounced on:

i would hate for us to mimic the jews in anything they do, lest we follow them into the fire

Nahhhh, wouldn't want to become successful or anything like that,...,

Pity the poor troll. He/She is not only cerebrally challenged but orthographically and gramatically as well.

In searching for something else I ran across a bit of an American version at the Washington Times.

Beating drums of doom
Television anchors also beat the drums of doom prior to the liberation of Baghdad.
Ted Koppel, reporting from the front lines for ABC's "Nightline" on March 25, told viewers to "forget the easy victories of the last 20 years. This war is more like the ones we knew before."
A graphic beneath a report by CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Feb. 25 asked: "If War Happens, Another Quagmire?"
On "Good Morning America" on March 26, ABC's Diane Sawyer wondered: "What happened to the flowers expected to be tossed the way of the Americans? Was it a terrible miscalculation?"
CBS' Leslie Stahl told Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on the March 26 edition of "48 Hours" that the supply lines to quickly advancing U.S. forces were overstretched, its "rear was exposed" and these problems were endangering the needed humanitarian aid in southern Iraq.
"It's nonsense," replied Mr. Powell, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under the first Bush administration. "It's the usual chatter. Every general who ever worked for me is now on some network commenting on the daily battle and, frankly, battles come and wars come and they have ups and downs, they have a rhythm to it."
John McWethy, a correspondent for ABC's "World News Tonight," told viewers on April 4 that his "intelligence sources are saying that some of Saddam Hussein's toughest security forces are now apparently digging in, apparently willing to defend their city block by block."
"This could be, Peter, a long war," Mr. McWethy told "World News Tonight" anchor Peter Jennings.
"As many people had anticipated," replied Mr. Jennings.

#37--"I Was Wrong!" Powerful sharing... I was touched and moved!
***

Attn: Sin and others:

IF one takes a stand that NO combat, NO war is EVER right, THEN one must adhere to one or both of the following stands:

1) Policy-makers, 'leaders', PEOPLE will ALWAYS be reasonable, responsible, fair/just, approachable: even in the most intractable of disputes; (all we have to do is find out HOW to access their 'fairness');

OR

2) It is better to survive as slaves under a cruel, torturing, raping, thieving regime than to resist it by force.

Imagine something else? Contact me, okay@knu2.com
Reason otherwise? Contact me, okay@knu2.com

Have newsworthy bits to bring to the attention and scrutiny of a wider public? I've been recording spoken essays (by Will Whittler, Rachel Lucas and others) examining the rationale FOR this war, and recording them into "Thus Was the Week That Was", offered on CD-Baby as of April 21st or so...

I've been pushing to find, collate, edit and read-onto-CD the key points, arguments and developments we're experiencing... but I've a full-time job AND two grade-school sons AND we all speak Thai at home here in Bangkok, altho I'm an expat American... So my time's been limited to 2300-to-0200 daily...

You'd be really helpful if y'all sent clips (attributed, complete but as short as possible) from the Blogosphere OR from Fox, UPI, or other wire-services, credible or not [acknowledging the DISMAL denoument and confessions of CNN recently] and I'll consider them for inclusion into TW3: Thus Was the Week That Was...

(orthographically and gramMatically challenged, Ma'am)

Eye Opener also goes by moniker: KDean Hooper
kdean@knu2.com

Thanks in advance for yr help.
"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."
"Semper Vigilis!"

In reply to Eva #20

I've heard of that theory from my own father - that Communism was a Jewish idea. If you think about how many Jews were involved in Communism, it makes sense in a weird way. Marx and Engels were both Jewish and so were many other big names - as well as many commisars and officials in the early Communist Party. Jews were also very active in the Socialist revolutions of 1848.

Where the theory falls down is that fact that Jews were persecuted in Russia and Eastern Europe under Communist rule.

The lefts moral compass is f**ked. I saw a "peace" march last sunday. Talk about a sorry but still frustrating sight(I know i should let go). I really think that these sad f**ks need some psychotropic medication--it really is pathological. Thank God for the sensible majority in the USA. The world can't do without them.
BTW remember that Chomsky, Mailer, Moore really do try to soil your good name and your good people. Our wretched ABC will broadcast anything from these friends of evil.

Firstly, I'm not a "leftist." While I find "righties" to be "scary," I find "lefties" to be "pathetic." Next on the great debate over reason vs. imagination. And I promise today not to say anything solely for the purpose of baiting people, nor will I change my name...

>That neatly sums up the Left's inability to see what >should be clear to a bright 6 year old. They live, not in >a world in which reason and law acts as a check on >flawed human beings, but in a dreamworld of their >own creation, where someday, if the right people >them) are running things, there will be no pain or >sorrow or inequality, human nature will be remade >and we'll all have ice cream for dinner every night. Of >course, if a million or two or half a billion incorrect and >stubborn people stand in the way of the creation of >this paradise, they have to be done away with for the >good of everyone else

I believe that evolution didn't stop with the opposable thumbs, and the great idea that is "civilization." Instead I believe evolution to be an ongoing process wherein we will eventually not desire to compete with each other like animals on the African steppe and rather work together as a solitary whole, and I don't know.. do something else. Explore space or something. I grew up on Star Trek so.. But what would you like to do? Perhaps you enjoy competing with others in some fantasy abstraction of our primate social behavoir. I don't. I'm not terribly good at it to be honest with you. But the fact is 6.2 billion people competing for resources on a planet which is slowly becoming depleted of said resources, seems like a game that nobody will win. And as time goes on the resources go down, as the population goes up. The math is very simple... or do you believe that God will take care of you?

#63 Celissa

ROTFLMGMO!