That's not all France has to worry about according to DEBKA.

DEBKAfile’s sources have learned that the Iraqi nuclear scientist Jafer Jafer told his US captors that he too had been bound for Paris for the promised political asylum. But he made the mistake of picking the wrong escape route. To avoid the gridlock set up in Damascus by the teeming high-ranking fugitives from Baghdad, he headed out through Jordan, was recognized in Amman and handed over to the Americans.

France’s anti-American program had several more tentacles. As American officials addressed the first meeting of Iraqi opposition and factional leaders at Abraham’s reputed birthplace of Ur near Nasiriyah, French diplomats and intelligence officers landed in Tehran for a day of meetings with Mohamad Bakr Al Hakim, head of the Iran-backed Supreme Assembly for Islamic Revolution in Iraq – SAIRI, who for that reason boycotted the US-sponsored parley. The French visitors were there to persuade the cleric to instruct his followers in Baghdad, Najef, Karbala and Basra to join in founding an anti-American coalition of forces in Iraq.

Aware of what the French were up to, Washington arranged for the Kurdish PUK leader Jalal Talabani, a close friend of the Shiite cleric and Iranian leaders, to reach Teheran at the same time as the French contingent. His task was to make sure Al Hakim was not caught up in French toils. They are still talking.

Wooed at every hand, 20,000 Iraqi Shiites staged a vocal protest rally in Nasiriyah to shake their fists against the American-sponsored Iraqi opposition leaders and shout “America will not decide for us but the Hawza!” (religious medressa).

This surge of activity on Tuesday, April 15 was Act One of the confrontational contest being fought among the United States, Iran, Syria, Iraqi faction leaders and the Lebanese Hizballah for control over Iraq’s largest group, 12 million Shiites.

[Link: www.debka.com...]

Radical Islamic fundamentalists causing trouble and unrest? Mon Dieu. Who would ever have imagined such a thing?

Idiots!

Part of the council's purpose is to oversee the building of more mosques and encourage foreign imams to learn French

This is incredible! Why is the French government getting itself involved in the building of any religious houses of worship? Did I read this correctly, the French government is trying to create hirarchy , structure and more facilities for a religion????

Is there any concept about separation of Church and state in France?

Meanwhile, over at the WaPo, we find that the PA hasn't been paying attention. They're saying that we can't hold Abu Abbas because of the Oslo accords. Never mind that the Palis have been in violation of Oslo from the get-go...

Hey, Sarkozy, is that a Jewish name? If it is, bonne chance, mon ami. Hopefully this latest French debacle will open up the eyes of France and other Euro nations, hell even America and Canada for that matter. I know it probably won't, but I am still young and naive enough to hope it will.

After Falwell blamed 9/11 on the ACLU and gays and lesbians, etc., a columnist (can't remember her name at the moment) leveled a broadside that seems appropriate here (paraphrasing): It's hard to admire their courage when their stupidity is so breathtaking.

Well, thankfully here in America, we don't have to worry about an "Islamic Party"- the Democrats have more then shown a willingness to "adopt" Muslims in mass, taking their campaign contributions and spouting their rhetoric for them, as if they themselves were Muslims. The UCLA allows for Muslim prayer rooms in public places, while at the same time hunting down Christian and Jewish displays as if they were the plague.

Radical Islam hides behind the left's "multi-cultural diversity" dogma, quietly awaiting the day when all other cultures can be laid to rest.

And, not to be beaten to the bank, some Republicans have been more then happy to take the moolah from Mulahs.

It's comming, and only your PC views obtained from public school teachers stops you from seeing this.

Try to appease a rabid tiger, you end up as lunch.

That is the lesson.

Wow. It's very surprising that the French government is making apologies to fanatical Moslems! This is something I never thought I would see! Appeasement from the French? Mon Dieu!

/sarcasm

#1-

This surge of activity on Tuesday, April 15 was Act One of the confrontational contest being fought among the United States, Iran, Syria, Iraqi faction leaders and the Lebanese Hizballah for control over Iraq’s largest group, 12 million Shiites.

Just goes to show, the proper lesson was that of Germany and Japan- bomb them into the stone age, then rebuild their society. Japan learned well from this, and i'm willing to bet, the mass of Germans- at least those whose parents don't remember their yeas in the Hitler Youth Corp.

'Splody Owl?!

Man, that's hilarious

The lack of structure has forced thousands of Muslims around France to practice their faith in makeshift underground prayer rooms simply because there are not enough mosques.

More muslims than mosques are able to hold....scary.

Wow, I see you guys have gone from political discourse, to Muslim-baiting. Last three articles I read, (wait.. 4? 5?) have all been about "the bad guys." Is it a slow news day, or is racism now a political agenda? I understand the difference between Shari'a and other sects of Islam (pre-emptive defense), but what I don't understand is how you cannot see, that in every culture and in every religion are extremists who use their notions of God to justify anything they damn well please. Its not just Islam, people have killed in the name of every religion on earth, even Buddhism. So.. lighten up towards the sandy blacks, okay guys? Divisive elitism is Hitleresque.. especially in the name of religion.

A secularized France is faced with the problem of the influx of millions of foreign born Muslims who have no attachment to French language, culture, laws, and traditions. The native French have a very low birth rate while the Muslims' is quite high. There are not enough jobs available for the native French, much less the immigrants and there is a growing pool of unemployed, resentful, Muslim men. These problems will only get worse in the coming decades and I don't think that the French will find a effective solution. It's shar'ia time in Cannes (say 2020 or 2025).

#13

I'll keep my views about Islam until I see a Buddhist fly a plane into buildings with innocent people.

Nicolas Sarkozy issued the warning after the unexpectedly strong showing of a Muslim fundamentalist party in weekend elections for a new council to represent France's various Islamic factions.

I think Sarkozy has to the stupidest fuck on earth, or obstinately blind.
Probably a little of both.

Shari'a watch meter:

Upgraded.

Shari'a imposed in 6 years...

He said he would not allow the council to be used as a vehicle for spreading extremist views, notably sharia, or Islamic law.

"Islamic law will be applied nowhere because it is not the law of the (French) Republic," he said.

He just doesn't understand Islam......

These are not "extremist views" - they are mainstream and is in fact what a good muslim should live under. Hence that is why they won 19 seats. This just shows that the Frence government do not know who they are dealing with. There is hope!!! - I know a French Algerian muslim and she lives here in London and...well...she woud be stoned...and more than once...and there would be more than one male person that would be stoned along with her.

OT, but worthwhile... jobs@al jaz

Please read this interview Bat Ye'or gave TEN YEARS AGO!!!

[Link: www.dhimmitude.org...]
The Return of Islam to Europe: Bat Ye'or Interviewed by Paul Giniewski , Midstream, February/March 1994

When will the so-called "intelligentsia" wake up to her prescient insights ???.....I urge all LGFers to read this series of essays, below, and watch for her forthcoming book on "Eurabia"..

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]
Eurabia: The Road to Munich... by Bat Ye'or, National Review Online, October 9, 2002

www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_eurabia_122002_eng.d oc
This article examines the structure of Eurabia in its formative years; it will be followed by a book on this subject later in the year:
The Euro-Arab Dialogue and The Birth of Eurabia , by Bat Ye'or, December 2002 (translation April 2003)
European Fears of the Gathering Jihad , by Bat Ye'or. FrontPageMagazine.com, February 21, 2003

The common refrain of the "root cause" crowd is that the Islamic and Arab worlds are alienated from the west , with the implication that it is the west that needs to address this.
Muslims seem equally alienated from other non-western societies (Hindu India, Post Soviet Russia, Han China, Thailand, The Phillipines). If muslims are alienated they are doing it to themselves - or more accurately it is the ability of Muslims to alienate pretty much every other culture on earth that they should perhaps address.
There are strains of Islam that could be compatible with the 21st century, and there are Arabs and Muslims who live in secular states under non religious law - the examples are less than perfect, and distressingly few - but they do exist. But it is Muslims who must choose - we can only make the choice clear - choose jihad and your dreams of martyrdom will be fullfilled. We can suggest a path other than Jihad, but we can't force them to choose it. But it is no help to those Muslims who urge a wiser choice to try and obfuscate the consequences of choosing foolishly.

tell me why again we should care what happens in the shitty little country known as France? it's not like anyone sensible would go there or that they make anything anyone would buy. let them appease their seething masses anyway they see fit and we can always turn them away at our borders when they beg for asylum.

#13 Insidiot

is racism now a political agenda

Racism where? Islam is not a race, it's a religion.

I understand the difference between Shari'a and other sects of Islam

Sharia is not a sect of Islam, it is the Islamic legal code -applicable to all Muslims regardless of sect, Sunni, Shia, Wahabbi, Sufi etc.

... in every culture and in every religion (there) are extremists who use their notions of God to justify anything they damn well please.

Yeah, fundamentalism is a pain ain't it? Lets sort out the fundamentalists who incite and commit violence.

"Is it a slow news day, or is racism now a political agenda?"

Islam = Religion; Where does anti-radical Islam = racism?

"So.. lighten up towards the sandy blacks, okay guys?"

Who is the racist in this thread?

"Divisive elitism is Hitleresque.. especially in the name of religion. "

"Divisive elitism" seems a bit redundant to me, as elitism is pretty much divisive by nature. I'm not sure how you equate that to, or rather "Religious Divisive Elitism" Hitler, though ...

As my good friend Nelson Muntz would say,

Haa Ha!

#7
"Radical Islam hides behind the left's "multi-cultural diversity" dogma, quietly awaiting the day when all other cultures can be laid to rest."

Including the small islamic denominations which aren't spouting hatred 24/7, only radical islam will be accepted, according to the left, all else are infidels.

#13 For all the acusations of racism: may a "sandy black" morocan jew IDF soilder shoot a Pale-stinian islamic terrorist or a Whitey Rachile Corrie Terror Youth brigade member today.

Was your post a friggin joke?

imams who propagate views that run counter to French values will be expelled

Can somebody please explain what those "French values" might be?

#15 I'll keep my views about Islam until I see a Buddhist fly a plane into buildings with innocent people.

Amen, brother.

#13 ...but what I don't understand is how you cannot see, that in every culture and in every religion are extremists who use their notions of God to justify anything they damn well please

At the CORE of Islam is hate. Conversion is forced and all non-believers are to be killed. Facts are facts. Your Quaran teaches these things. You are considered a bad Muslim if you don't act in such a way. This barbaric and deceived attitude is specific to Islam.

#21
good one!
....we should care what happens in the shitty little country known as France?
It seems fewer americans care about shitty little country known as France, and its shitty stinking products

Islam = religion and religion tends toward being a culturally and racially divided phenomena. Judaism is a religion, and Jews are a race. Of course, this doesn't apply to Christiainity but... anyways, if you like me to invent a new word, say Religicism or something, I will surely abide your rhetoric, but... historically, religion and race are linked to culture... Shar'ia and those who live by the code Jihad (which is actually, properly interpreted as a spiritual battle against evil within the Self) is a sect of extreme Fundementalism... similar to Christian fundies who blow up abortion clinics in the name of God. If all the abortionists live in one giant building you can bet, there would be a Fundie Christian flying his plane into it.

Anyways.. how do you guys feel about Tareq Aziz.. a Christian Ba'athist?

France under Sharia?? I won't stop laughing for a month!

And Insidiot, I'm quite certain Charles isn't baiting ALL Muslims by comparing them to the French. No ethnic group deserves that. ;) We're just baiting those fascist frog bastards for their combination of contemptible appeasement and idiot xenophobia. Christ sakes: letting in G_d only knows how many immigrants into "the Zones." Then whining when your complete lack of discipline goes badly. Great job, France.

(golf clap)

Paul (#14):

If it takes 15 years, I will deeply impressed by France's ability to maintain order. ;)

Insidiot:

I don't despise Saddam, OBL, or even Arafat and their supporters because they are Muslims. I despise them because they are idiot psychopaths, or enablers of idiot psychopaths.

#13 insidiot :

Whilst, regrettably, some Muslim baiting does occur on LGF, I really can't see that that is what characterised the posts preceding yours.

You see phrases like "Radical islam" - which I would take to draw the same sort of distinction as "Fundamentalist Christian" - used by people who may find the likes of Falwell or Robertson a little scary - but don't conflate all Christians with these men.

And even if someone was virulently and pathologically hostile to all forms of Isalam as well as all Muslims - this would not make them a rascist - maybe a bigot, but not a rascist.

Very few LGF'ers seem to condmenm every muslim and all aspects of Islam - but the fact is that in the Islamic world the militant and extreme are far closer to being the maisntream than any other major cultural sphere - so much so that even the most moderate muslims feel the need to demostrate some degree of solidarity and sympathy for waht should be a radical political fringe.

Supreme Assembly for Islamic Revolution

**shudder**

heh...

I think that France is going to have a few problems in a few years....actually, more than just a few. If these radicals are finding safe refuge in France...what happens when they start blowing up American stuff in France? Or...if they decide that France is the ideal country for them and they just take over?

Dog with fleas, lay down...so on so forth.

#13   Insidiot 

Wanna tell us what percentage of Palestinians approve of suicide/homicide bombings?

I think the latest figure is pushing close to 80% or more. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)

Your statement about every religion having extremists is about as obvious as saying every ladder has a bottom rung.

But when 8 out of 10 rungs are rotten there's a problem.

#29 Insidiot

Jihad (which is actually, properly interpreted as a spiritual battle against evil within the Self)

Wrong! You are talking about greater jihad, which is the inner battle to better oneself. The kind of jihad the world is concerned with is the lesser jihad, which basically means spreading Islam by offensive war, which is what we see in Sudan/ 911/ Palestine/ Afghanistan/ etc/ etc/ etc.

The problem is that you believe Muslims when they tell you about jihad. They give you the whitewashed version so that you might welcome them. Once you have welcomed them they will be only too happy to demonstrate the true meaning of jihad. And that's when they try to kill you and enslave your people.

Johan - Like I said... a new word will suit your fancy. Religicism or something like that. But I've seen several posts on LGF that express the troubling opinion that exterminating Islam is an answer. I don't know that militancy is "much closer to the mainstream" in Islam than in other forms of worship or other cultural phenomena. I won't bore you with societal circumstance that may inspire such a radical interpretation of the Koran, but I can tell you that in primate social behavoir, social agression, and rigidity of social order are linked to the abundance of resource, given a case study I read on baboon culture. I'm not likening Islam to baboon culture. No - that's a lie - that's precisely what I'm doing, yet I don't think its a problem with Islam, I think it can arise from *any* religion, and degree is a product of the aforementioned.

#29 isanidiot

Islam = religion and religion tends toward being a culturally and racially divided phenomena. Judaism is a religion, and Jews are a race.

Jews are NOT a race, they are practitioners of a religion and you can be of any race to practice that religion. Example, Sharon is a Caucasian Jew and Sammy Davis Jr. was a black Jew... get it?

#7:

Well, thankfully here in America, we don't have to worry about an "Islamic Party"- the Democrats have more then shown a willingness to "adopt" Muslims in mass, taking their campaign contributions and spouting their rhetoric for them, as if they themselves were Muslims.

So have the Republicans, apparently.

Grover Norquist's Strange Alliance with Radical Islam

Still standing by my vote for France in the Sharia-watch.

Insidiot: Sorry holmes, my problem is with any ideology that preaches the deliberate killing of innocents, whether its Nazism or Islam. I'm sure there are a few nut-jobs in Germany still, but when it was millions enthralled by violent bigotry, that was cause for action and concern. Now that there are millions who believe in jihad, terrorism, think Osama and Saddam were heros, and dance in the streets and pass out candy over the slaughter of civilians, they get my full attention.

The thousands dead all around the globe in the name of Islam would surely take exception to your "it's all the same" white-washing. When the core religious teachings and text demand "kill them, kill them, enslave them, kill them, rob them, kill them, lie to them, kill them, kill them, and one should kill them," it's pretty clear where one-half of the bigotry lies. Mein Kampf was "Winnie the Pooh's Tea-time Adventure" in comparison. The other half lies with your ilk, who deliberately and falsely blame the victim, not the assailant. Take it to DU.

Can somebody please explain what those "French values" might be?

Anti-semitism, totalitarianism, and corruption.

Johan (#32):

Most white people in the world, especially in Europe, appear to be appeasing retards at best, elitist Jew-haters at worst. Should America have to spend all their time on television apologizing for them? Or is it maybe safe to say that American Muslims are busy running away from all the tyrants and swine that populate the rest of the world?

Yeah, America's got some Muslim idiots. If you could arrest them for enabling terrorism through their funding, and even their actions (that lindh idiot), I'd thank you. But you don't arrest the entire neighbourhood even if THREE houses in it are owned by drug lords. You just take out the trash.

I agree with your points on bigots and racists, btw. If you could just take that up with some of the more ignorant posters, who can't seem to grasp that Bin Laden hates heretic Muslims even more than he hates Christians, that would be a great start to the Reformation.

#18 djspicerack: from your Aljazeera journalist want-ad:

Strong world affairs and political knowledge required, excellent writing and analytical skills in English, as well as the ability to find and set the global news agenda

I'm glad there's no pretenses about Aljazeera having an agenda. I think if you worked for them and didn't tow the party line, they'd tell you to go back and sharpen your pencil and try again.

the
country's interior minister has threatened to expel any foreign Muslim
religious leader who disseminates extremist propaganda.

And we all know how well those French/UN empty threats worked against Saddam.

#28
From the article:

"We want to send the message to the French side to please do something. Or, if you don't want to do anything, then please shut up," Touton said.

It's nice to see that sales of Italian and Aussie wine are up...
Keep croaking Frogs. Soon you will be completely in the toilet economically and shari'a laws will be in effect...

"F the French" t-shirt: $15.95
Bottle of Aussie wine: $22.50
Knowing that France will soon be a third-world hell-hole: Priceless

#36 - Uhhhmm.. I'm not terribly concerned with Islam enslaving my people. In fact, the historical context of Islamic enslavement lends very little creedence to your paranoia. Christian enslavement of people, however is rampant. Small pox blankets, slavery of Africans, the extermination of native american populations, the Spanish Inquisition (which is one of my favorite things in the world).. Think about you have two ideals:

#1: Heaven #2: Hell

In the hopes of someday making it to heaven, you recreate in material form your vision of hell. Christianity is as replete with insanity as Islam, and during these Dark Ages of Christian culture, Islamic states were centers of artistic, cultural and scientific innovation. Five hundred years later and the tides have changed. Its all a matter of evolving strait through this agressive tendency. And jihad.. is not an "agressive" spread of Islam, its a defensive protection of Islam. And you believe what Falwell and Buchanon say about Islam, because it makes you feel better about being Christian. But unfortunately it's untrue.

#21 h-man

tell me why again we should care what happens in the shitty little country known as France?

There are two kinds of countries in the world: countries with nukes, and countries without nukes. If a country without nukes adopts an evil totalitarism hell-bent on destroying the planet, well, there are ways to deal with it. If a country with nukes adopts the same ideology, it's time to call Houston -- we have a problem.

"Insidiot" wrote:

Is it a slow news day, or is racism now a political agenda?

ISLAM IS NOT A RACE. Why is this so hard for people like this to understand?

"Insidiot" also wrote:

I understand the difference between Shari'a and other sects of Islam...

...demonstrating total ignorance of the subject. But then, it's always easier to make "racism" accusations than to educate yourself on the issues, n'est ce pas?

"Insidiot" also wrote:

So.. lighten up towards the sandy blacks, okay guys?

"Sandy blacks?" Why are the ones who scream "racism!" always the first to use ugly terms like this?

And then "Insidiot" wrote:

Divisive elitism is Hitleresque...

Lazy, intellectually dishonest, and just plain ignorant of the issues, and now also violating Godwin's Law.

Insidiot, I'm sure everyone here would have as much loathing for christian, or hindu, fundamentalists who blow people up for religious purposes. But guess what, there are thousands of seething muslims who are actively trying to kill Americans (and other westerners) and pronounce it as a religious duty. They are sponsored by whole countries, they are actively plotting mass murder operations right now against Americans for no reason other than they exist. Whole societies are being brainwashed through pervasive propaganda (madrassas, manipulated media, etc.) to incite murder against us.

This is a forum to discuss this reality. If you think we need to acknowledge that all religions have wackos, and that focusing on the overwhelmingly largest class of such wackos is "racist" without repeating such a disclaimer, you can take that PC crap elsewhere.

Insidiot (#46):

Don't go nuts in defense of what Islam is now. Most LGF'ers are right in that the rest of the world has no ideas save violence, no power save terror, no contribution to beauty at all. And Christians have mostly eliminated slavery. Expenditure on ships for the British, a bloody civil war in America. Christians are generally far, far more tolerant than most non-American Muslims are now.

As for the "lesser" jihad, if you're waging it against every nation you have a border with, then you're doing something wrong. Make no mistake, most Muslim leaders are only concerned with conquest: the only reason I'm not scared of their insanity is because they are notoriously incompetent, and will never win against America.

...and it's another one from Buffalo New York.

#46

slavery of Africans,

This is practiced todayin Africa by muslims.

???

What do you mean, Charles?

#45   Celissa 

Now that you bring up the subject of Aussie wines, may I recommend Penfold's Koonunga Hill Shiraz?

Retails for about $10 and is superb.

(Some Aussie reds can be had for as little as $6 or $7 and are wonderful.)

#40 - Model4

Thousands dead around the globe? Boo hoo. Ask the Native Americans how they feel about Christians worshipping a God of peace/love and then attempting to enslave and then exterminate them. Twenty million dead in the name of conquest and Christ. We must hold individuals responsible for their actions, but holding the entire religion responsible would have ended Christianity several centuries ago, if morality were the gage by which we eradicated ideas. But its not, and Christians are now peaceful, loving.. whatever. I'm sorry I don't have enough sarcasm in me to day to complete the thought.

And while we're on the topic of idiocy, there is nothing "fundamental" to the Christian faith that condones murder, making the term "fundamentalist" absurd in this context. Violence and murder are fundamental to Islam, in black and white again and again and again and abrogating earlier pacific pronouncements within. Sorry troll, do more reading about human histroy and a little less baboon watching.

Insidiot (#55)

Now Christians are giving Native Americans casinos, and offering those who step off the reservation citizenship. They can worship the sun, for all America cares.

What do you think the Saudi reaction to all that would be?

Christians are a lot more peaceful than MOST worldwide jihadis are. That's all we're trying to say. Then, we try and keep awareness to DO something about said jihadis without resorting to genocide (most of us, anyways). Fair enough?

There is a distinction that I find between the Fundimentalist "Christian" and "Islamic" groups

The abortion clinic bombers are acting aganist every teaching Christ ever gave. It is not our place to judge, (in fact, it is forbidden) however, Christ did say "They shall be know for their fruits".............

The rabid mullahs and suicide bombers of the Mid-East are another matter. Could a Muslim please explain to me how these individuals are in violation of the Koran?

I made a comment in post #17 that the French government doesn't understand Islam and by your post in #37 Insidiot neither do you.

Jihad is akin to a sacrament and is obligatory upon all muslims. Jihad is not an inner struggle concept though its used as an example by some muslims. Its about spreading the government of God - by killing if necessary. Jihad to defend the muslim lands is mandatory on all muslims.

Model4 (#57)

Violence, warfare, and murder were traits of Judaism, too. And look how far that got them against the Romans, etc.

Needless to say, THAT is why I feel unless Muslims turn from the path of darkness, they will be as hated and dispossessed as the Jews once were.

WTF is up with Buffalo anyway???

Insidiot;

You won't find anyone here disputing the genocidal crimes that various religions - especially Christianity - have been responsible for. But to deliberately fail to see the growing menace of Islamic fascism despite the overwhelming evidence is student level white man's guilt.

You mention the fact that the Islamic world no longer leads in artistic and scientific endeavour; surely this is not a case of the tide turning but the Imams turning off the taps. As Sam Goldwyn might have said "They're advancing backwards"

46 Insidiot. Thanks for the history lesson. Here's an even shorter one: I think it was Celissa who wrote something like this. (Great post - can't remember what thread)

1400CE
Christians - Convert or Die
Muslims - Convert or Die

2000CE
Christians - Would you read this leaflet please?
Muslims - Convert or Die.

And jihad.. is not an "agressive" spread of Islam, its a defensive protection of Islam

What are jihadi's protecting Islam against? Please I'd like to know.

...and now a thread has been hijcked by a troll at comment #13.

Don't feed the trolls.

Caton - i hear you, but i'm not too concerned with that 1) the muslim pop is still small (10%), 2) they are politically unsophisticated, and 3) with any luck, if France was to fall to its seething arab masses they wd pull a S. Africa and dump their weapons (hopefully).

In the mean time i will gladly chortle over my glass of Californian Merlot, at the pitiful, ever less important Frogs and their shitty little country (did anyone see how the Aussie PM suggested dumping France from the UNSC and putting on Japan, India and Brazil? sweet).

CrusadeNow (#59):

Then Islam's tenents are going to change.

And I frankly doubt Muslims should care what other people think about their orthodoxy with the Koran, too.

#47: Caton, and here is the French arsenal. Interesting what PBS says about Iraq...

SolomonX: Bin Laden, like Saddam Hussein, Pinochet and Manuel Noriega is a product of a now defunct US alliance aimed at protecting its self-interests while inadvertantly & short sightedly not thinking of the consequences of allying with "evil" people. The process is called "blowback." And we've been dealing with its effects for the past half century.

Charles: In fact the same one from Buffalo. I'll be nice though, even if I am treated disrespectfully. You have my word.

I hope France appoints an islamic nutbag as their defense secretary. When he turns on them and blows up Paris, maybe they will "get it" then.

#46, Seems you need some therapy over at the Society for the Prevention of Cultural Illiteracy and Self Delusion. Rx: two weeks vacation from New York Times, CNN, and Islamist propaganda tracts.

#65 h-man

You do know that the next generation of French boomers will be operational in 2004, don't you? They are rumored to be more silent that the U.S. Ohio-class boomers -- who defined silence.

I'm not worried yet, but I am concerned.

Insidiot:

I told you before, you have discredited your "arguments" with your lack of solid knowledge on the subject matter. Having read this thread I see you got your pants pulled down a solid dozen more times as your statements were dissected. To sum it up, you know jack-shit about the "point" your trying to make, flashy rhetoric does not lend credibility to a statement. Care to show me where Southwest Asia is again? Remain silent child, you may learn something.

OT - WaPo reporting that the anti-French boycott is being felt.

I think Charles is referring to the Buffalo Seven (or whatever number) who were bad news and arrested. Insidiot (troll) is from Buffalo.

Just my $.02, the problem isn't with the muslims themselves; a fundamentalist Southern Baptist state would be just as bad as any muslim state. The problem is that these people really believe their own BS, and still have the political systems to enforce it.

Nobody wants to wipe out any one religion. These people just have to make the great leap forward and get God off the throne. Or some'n.

And we care what happens in France 'coz they got the Bomb and a Veto. I can see no other reason.

OT: How to detect trolls.

Look at this picture. (Some kind of Rohrschach test)

IF you see Castro the magificent only, you are a troll.

IF you see Castro on the left, and a GI wearing a helmet and sunglasses on the right - you are qualified to post at LGF. :)

Godwin's Law:

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

#60   trevalyan 

Just trying to follow your logic here.

By forcibly resisting the Romans, the Jews put themselves on a path of darkness ... and that's why Jews have been hated ever since?

#68 Idiot

I'll be nice though, even if I am treated disrespectfully.

Your first comment in this thread was calling everybody racist. Can't be less respectful that that, boy.

You have my word.

Why don't you stick it your ass, where your head is?

So Caton, what is your definition of a troll? anyone who doesnt agree with you? Anyone with a difference of opinion? I dont agree with insidiot but believe that people have a right to debate their views. In fact, a "troll" actually adds spice to the debate. Spice can be a good thing....You would only be happy preachin to the choir right???

Smit (#63)

Celissa's post is under the one about Pentagon Muslims. :)

Caton (#71)

I was under the impression America was #1 in submarine warfare. Are you telling me you're about to lose that distinction to the FRENCH?!

That's almost as laughable as knowing you won't be able to drink wine in France in a few years.

I agree most strongly with Caton -- please do not feed the troll from Buffalo any more. He's already lost the argument with his first comment anyway.

Some one (not on this thread yet...) said that Islam needs a Reformation like Christianity went through in the early 1500's.

However, if someone were to make that point, they would have to note that the Reformation was a return to a much more conservative Christianity. (Ex. Soli Filia, Sola Scriptura, Omni sanctus.....etc)

I think the action that really needs to be taken is for Islam to develope a concept of Seperation of Church and State, much like the one Christianity has.

Seperation of Church and State is very biblical. In the OT, the religous duties were handled by the prophets, and the political duties were handled by the Kings. (Very rarely without conflict between the two)

This seperation is essential to a society that wishes to avoid having the will of the State interperted as the Will of God. These can be both very different things.

#68 Insidiot

Does admitting to former errors/crimes/foreign policy screw ups automatically mean that the US and it's allies are forced to abdicate their current responsibilities as they see them? Are we not allowed to take an aggressive stance against a nest of vipers because back in the cold war the US was backing some mangy nags?

Wild Justice (#78)

GAAAH. No, I was just saying that violence against all other ethnic groups is a bad policy. Live by the sword, die by the sword, etc.

And the Jews were hated because they were the top dog, and then driven out of their own country, when everyone picked on them unfairly. It took thousands of years for them to recover. I define that as a BAD THING.

#80 paganinfidel

So Caton, what is your definition of a troll? anyone who doesnt agree with you?

Posters whose goal is not to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion.

This applies to you.

#60 trevalyan: Needless to say, THAT is why I feel unless Muslims turn from the path of darkness, they will be as hated and dispossessed as the Jews once were.

Hello, Jews were persecuted before Rome existed and the violence against Jews continue today (Caton on this board had his shul burned a few months ago). The Romans tried to enslave the Jews, taking away all freedoms. I don't get your post.

#73: Interesting what the article says about boycotting German goods:

The American backlash apparently is having little or no impact on business with Germany, the other major European country that actively opposed the war. A survey by the Association of German Chambers of Commerce and Industry of more than 300 German companies doing business in the United States found no effect.

"It could be that France's position is considered to be fundamental, and ours is considered to be more or less an accident, in connection with the elections we had last autumn," said Michael Rogowski, president of the Federation of German Industries in Berlin. He referred to Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's exploitation of antiwar sentiment to win reelection in September.

German business groups and the German Embassy in the United States have scheduled a meeting in Washington next month with U.S. businesses and politicians to try to make sure that no difficulties arise in U.S.-German trade.

The only boycotts on business level I have heard of were

- the Pentagon boycotting German white paint, which they have used for a long time, and
- a US firm boycotting leather import from Germany.

Seems the French really have to bleed, though Germany will get some sting as well.

Man I love it when non-Muslims try and tell people "No, what the Koran says, most Muslims believe and most influential Islamic scholars and Imams teach is not Islam. I read about a guy watching baboons once and came up with the idea that..."

People have abused Christianity in the past? OK. People have abused the LA Lakers to wreak violence in the past. OK. But neither institution explicitly calls for violence and carnage. You're welcome to place fault with the people who did wrong in their names, but the institutions are blameless. Until you loan me the keys to your time-machine, my efforts will be confined to the present. People are enslaved and murdered today in direct accordance with Islam while you fling poop from your hammock, so don't pretend to be indignant about any historic suffering. You'd have done nothing about the injustices then, just as you do nothing about them today.

But here's a little fun game you can play that will make your head explode. OK, it'll be fun for me. Read the Koran out loud and replace "Jews" with blacks, "Christians" with hispanics, and "Infidels" with darkies. The object is to see how long you can go without running afoul of the incitement to violence or hate-speech codes of your locale.

Insidiot

I may be wrong, but i thought Shar'ia was the Islamic Book of Law, not a sect, type of Islam, etc. It instructs Islamic cultrure on what is "Right" and "Wrong", the "Rules" of Islam.

Of course i could be very wrong. Please someone tell me is i have been running astray.

#13

Its not just Islam, people have killed in the name of every religion on earth, even Buddhism. So.. lighten up towards the sandy blacks, okay guys?

Hmm, I can always tell a PC brainwashed individual by how they equate race with culture- they are not the same. Just because an air head leftist teacher has told you so, does not make it so.

And again here:

slam = religion and religion tends toward being a culturally and racially divided phenomena. Judaism is a religion, and Jews are a race. Of course, this doesn't apply to Christiainity but

Wrong again, there were (some others can help me here) a very large group of black African Jews who Isreal took under their wing to protect them from the Muslims trying to kill them off.

Again, culture and race are not the same thing. when one of my son's teachers allowed a child in his class to call my son a "racist" for calling the French weasles a year or so ago, I made him apoligize to my son in front of the class- how did this teacher condone the racist accusation? His reply when the student made it was "Yes and some people believed Hitler to be correct".

I made that SOB not only apologize publically, I made damn sure he knew I would bankrupt his ass in a sunami of legal paper work if he ever allowed such an insult again.

Left leaning people fear money, and it's a accompanied power more then they would admit.

#81 trevalyan

I was under the impression America was #1 in submarine warfare. Are you telling me you're about to lose that distinction to the FRENCH?!

Nope. I'm telling you that the most silent nuclear submarine today is the new French boomer. That's all.

Insidiot,

One thing that you not considering in speaking about past failures and crimes commited by Christians.

Every movement has it's time and place. Some can be explained by their lack of knowledge and inability to understand the repurcusions of their actions.

Therefore, Christians practising of slavery and other crimes against humanity (which is a purely contemporary notion). can only be brought up if you are willing to acknowledge that Christianity has acknowledged (to some degree) it's mistakes and attempts at restitution through social and political means (modern democratic federalism would not have existed without the advent of post-fundemental Christianity).

The problems inherent in Islam and all of it's philosophical branches is it's inability to admit fallibility and it's absolute reluctance to change.

I've said this before and I'll say this again, French Jews, get out while you still can. We would be more then happy to open the gates of freedom to you here in America.

Lively (#87)

I didn't say the Roman occupation was bad. I was saying that a cursory view through the Old Testament showed that the Jews went on a violent rampage through the Middle East, mass-murdering people and taking their lands, and eventually got shown that being hated by everyone and being driven only by hate, as Muslims are increasingly becoming, makes you weak.

Violence against Jews is a complex subject, but you can surely agree having no state of their own entered into it?

#94 Zionest

I've said this before and I'll say this again, French Jews, get out while you still can.

Almost done. But thanks for the advice.

We would be more then happy to open the gates of freedom to you here in America.

Alas, no. A green card is not easy to get.

Well, he is correct. Every religon has killed. Even Buddhism.

That's why theologians consider mankind "fallen"

1648: A new religon is sweeping across several countries. The local priests decide that this cannot stand. They launch an Inqusition. In the course of the next 4-5 months, 50,000 members of the new religon are publicly executed and their homes burned.

Inquisitors: Buddhist and Shinto priests
Victims: Christians

No human institiution is free from blood on its hands.

Crap, I meant to say

"I didn't say the Roman occupation was GOOD."

Silly boy. :P

sorry.......

The location of the incident is Japan and Korea.

Caton: So now you are calling me a troll?? Lovely. Let me spell it out to you:
White
Woman
Gun Totin
Conservababe
Believer in Freedom of Speech.
Loves a lively debate
Thinks preachin to the choir is BORING

I guess that makes me a troll in your book

Black_Flag:

Ya got me, good job. But in fact we are both doing the same thing. Picking piece by piece, one statement out of an entire argument and then saying this invalidates the entire argument. Normally the level of this discourse never gets above the definition of words, "semantics" as they are called. Hating Islam is not racism, I agree... so now I must invent a new word which appeases people who cannot read between the lines and understand that marginalizing a group of people in any terms is say... "divisionist." And then someone else will say something clever like Charles, with Godwin's law, making it completely impossible to draw any negative parallels between what you are espousing, and what "evil" cultures of the past so espoused. This is the level of our discourse. I find it amusing, I actually print these things out at the end of the day, and refer back to them. I'll admit I don't know everything, that in fact I'm ignorant of many things. But I know that marginalizing a group of people and dividing them by any distinction is the most pervasive form of ignorance, not just on this site, but in the Islamic world, on liberal blogs, in Canada, and even France. And thank you.. I am learning something.

#88

The only boycotts on business level I have heard of were

- the Pentagon boycotting German white paint, which they have used for a long time, and
- a US firm boycotting leather import from Germany.

The problem with boycotting german goods is, a great many of the goods sold in the US are no longer made in Germany, they are made here, in America.

german and french companies able to do so, have been quietly leaving their mother countries in order to find less sociialistic environs- no other way to compete. The WSY has been following this trend for quite some time now.

#100 paganinfidel

So now you are calling me a troll?? Lovely. Let me spell it out to you:
White
Woman
Gun Totin
Conservababe
Believer in Freedom of Speech.
Loves a lively debate
Thinks preachin to the choir is BORING

I guess that makes me a troll in your book

That's the kind of comment I meant, yeah. Absolutely no point whatsoever, no meaningful discussion possible. Trolling at its best.

Time to leave this thread...

OT: Here's an interesting piece on the U.N. Human Rights Commission.
The U.N.'s Human Rights Rituals

#74

For the record they are the Lackawanna Six(near Buffalo)

#67

Peacekeeper ICBM

The Peacekeeper...
HELL YEAH!

Walk softly and carry a big Peacekeeper...
LOL

YOU SAY:

One thing that you not considering in speaking about past failures and crimes commited by Christians.

I SAY:

I am considering such things, unfortunately I'm taking a position that I don't completely agree with. The problem exists in spades on both sides, but yet Islam fundementalists and extremists are dangerous, I don't discount this. I don't support them. I support brotherhood, and as such I've doomed myself to an ideal I will probably never experience.

THEN YOU SAY:

Every movement has it's time and place. Some can be explained by their lack of knowledge and inability to understand the repurcusions of their actions.

Therefore, Christians practising of slavery and other crimes against humanity (which is a purely contemporary notion). can only be brought up if you are willing to acknowledge that Christianity has acknowledged (to some degree) it's mistakes and attempts at restitution through social and political means (modern democratic federalism would not have existed without the advent of post-fundemental Christianity).

The problems inherent in Islam and all of it's philosophical branches is it's inability to admit fallibility and it's absolute reluctance to change.

AND SO I SAY:

You have a great point, but if you say it like this, then its what I'm saying:

Any philosophy that cannot admit fallibility, and refuses to change, is inherently problematic.

Now we speak the same "truth".

Insidiot :
Why invent a new word when Bigot will serve you fine - the English language is already drowning in "isms" we don't need another one.

I did say in my first reply to your post that there have been bigots here at LGF, who I will admit have a distressingly final solutionto the "Islamic Problem" - my point was simply that I had not seen thsoe bigots in this thread before your first post.

Baboons - Muslims, as Charles said in another context - Pot meet kettle.
I assume that you were trying to make some argument about how ugly the society of any social animal (including humans) can get in the presence of intense rescource competition. This is just the "poverty as root cause" argument dressed up in a monkey suit. To mix a metaphor this canard has been shot down so many times that it seems almsot like gratuitous cruelty to pump another round into it. Poverty is a very poor corelator for political or religious extremism - in the Phillipines there are millions of desperately poor Catholics - but it is equally poor Muslim seperatists who pursue a campaign of extreme political violence. The 9-11 hijackers were overwhelmingly upper middle class. Saudi Arabia is hardly short of rescources - but completely consumed by Wahabism. I could go on almost endlessly pointing out that the poverty corelation is so low as to be nearly irrelevent.

#95 trevalyan

I didn't say the Roman occupation was bad.

I disagree, I think the Roman occupation of Jerusalem was bad for Jews.

The Jews only conquered the one piece of land known today as Israel. In OT times, they were not imperialistic and they were not driven by "hate." My suspicions about you are growing.

Violence against Jews is a complex subject,

My suspicions about you are now confirmed. What part of violence against the Jews is complex????? Need more information please.

Hmmm this Insidiot dude is talking out of his/ her arse. Nuff said.

#95

I was saying that a cursory view through the Old Testament showed that the Jews went on a violent rampage through the Middle East,

Rather interesting interpretation of the Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation. 70 AD marked not only the Jewish revolt, but the concious act of physically seperating the Christian sect from the Jewish religion, as a means of not being punished by the Romans for the revolt.

Mass murder indeed. It's always sad to see people with no real knowlege attempt to understand the events of history- worse still to twist them to their beliefs.

I keep reading that France has a huge Muslim population, the largest in Europe - does anyone have any specifics, number-wise? How many total, percentage of population, etc. compared with the rest of Europe?

One would think the French learned a few lessons about Islam and Democracy from the experience of Algeria.

Lively-

My suspicions about you are growing.

Mine aren't. I confirmed the other day that trevalyan is a muslim in lefty clothing.

#85   trevalyan 

The Jews weren't hated by the Romans because, "they were top dog."

The Jewish Chihuahua was in no way stronger or mightier than the Roman Rottweiler, but fought magnificently.

Recovery?

2,000 years.

#112 Desert Rat : Approx 5-10% of France is Muslim in 2002.

www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html #People

#112-

20% of Frawnce's population is Muslim. I would say the critical point of mass has just about been reached - after all, the Nazis were only 30% of Germans in 1932.

#114 Robert: Thanks.

#116-

Are you sure? an editorial in a recent WSJ reported 20%. The large cities of France are ringed by Muslim ghettos.

Sorry, but you have to pick a side. Wether you want to or not.

Otherwise you are just being obtuse.
Try your argument by drawing a line and defining your values versus those of Islam. If that's too offensive, modify you're adversary to Wahabiism.

#119 Robert: Yes, I feel like my number is a little low. I'm just using the CIA World Factbook. The numbers were taken probably before all those Iraqi UN Ambassadors and Republican Guard Generals left town for France. :)

Johan Says-

I assume that you were trying to make some argument about how ugly the society of any social animal (including humans) can get in the presence of intense rescource competition. This is just the "poverty as root cause" argument dressed up in a monkey suit. To mix a metaphor this canard has been shot down so many times that it seems almsot like gratuitous cruelty to pump another round into it. Poverty is a very poor corelator for political or religious extremism - in the Phillipines there are millions of desperately poor Catholics - but it is equally poor Muslim seperatists who pursue a campaign of extreme political violence. The 9-11 hijackers were overwhelmingly upper middle class. Saudi Arabia is hardly short of rescources - but completely consumed by Wahabism. I could go on almost endlessly pointing out that the poverty corelation is so low as to be nearly irrelevent.

AND SO I RESPOND:

Its nearly impossible to determine the root cause of violence, but in my opinion, I see acts of hopeless desperation being caused not by poverty, but opression, in an extremely variable sense of the word. Case studies such as: school shootings, "going postal," where the attacker has no vision of the future, and only wishes to bring about one last effect. Israel and Palestine are the key to easing these Islamic tensions, they aren't just "insane." I'm suggesting that that a period of renewal and and brotherhood between two religious groups, who share more in common than they think, is probably the only means to ending Islamic violence. Its like pre-school.. we all need to learn how to share. yay!

Let us not forget that France is a nuclear power.

If Islamic influence grows to the point when we have Islamists having influence with the army and navy. Our problems will REALLY begin.

It sure sounds like a lot of the posters on this site are followers of Michael Savage, who wants to fight "Islamofascism" with "Amerofascism." The first anti-immigrant party to make hay in the U.S. (against all those evil Irishmen flooding our shores escaping the potato famine) was the "American" party of the 1850's. They soon popularly (and accurately) became known as the "Know-Nothings." It looks like we have a resurgence of know-nothingism again, once again against evil moles spreading an alien religion (Irish=Catholicism, Jews in the 1890's).

But of course, I'm spreading TREASON! Perhaps some of the posters would like to bring back the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1799, used to oppress (then as now?) members of the Democratic Party, opposed to the ruling Federalists. Of course the leader of the Democratic Party at the time was none other than that known evildoer, Thomas Jefferson...

Brantjen:

Confirming a Catholic is a Muslim, merely because he sticks up for the good ones he knows... great deduction.

And I wasn't just talking about the Romans. Pretend all you want, but the Jews spent a good deal of the Old Testament massacring their enemies at high levels. Even godly calls to genocide. The point is, some of it MAY have been a bad idea. That's all I'm saying.

WildJustice (#115)

The Jews weren't hated by the Romans for that reason. However, there is good reason to suspect they were envied and hated by the other powers in the region when they were dominant. Can you deny that?

Lively:

I meant to say the Roman Occupation was not GOOD. Didn't you see my later post?

More to the point, you're saying the Jews were NEVER imperialistic? Never took over a great deal more of the Middle East than what we now know as Israel? Please.

I LIKE the Israelis we have now. Hear me? LIKE THEM. They are only trying to defend their homes against that idiot Arafat, and should be applauded for keeping the deaths on both sides low. I'm not totally condemning Old Testament jews, either: I'm just pointing out, that was the style at the time, to kill anyone who disagreed with you. And the religion has changed from that, and shouldn't be condemned for its earlier shortcomings.

As for the "violence against Jews" thing, I said that it was complex in that the historical reasons for it have multiple roots. I belive I've said in earlier posts, on my site and others, that violence against Jews, especially ones that don't attack other people without good cause (re: the vast, vast majority of Jews) is completely WRONG in this day and age. Are we now clear? I'm not an anti-Semite, or even an anti-Zionist (frankly, the difference between the two is amazingly small). Some people believe that if I say anything good about the Muslims I know, I'm either a traitor or one of "them." Guess they need someone to hate.

Jroth #120 - Ha! Pick a side. I believe that evolution didn't stop with opposable thumbs & civilization, because obviously there's a better idea out there to be had. Rather that we are in an interim phase in which we will overpopulate, and consume our resources, and pollute our atmosphere to the point where the it will have an effect on the environment. After all cause and effect... If you put something into the atmosphere, the system responds with a homeostatic effect to produce a kind of balance. In other words, I see a self-fulfilling apocalypse on its way, where famine, disease, wars etc.. will grace the headlines of every news paper world wide. We already have two of the four horsemen on every news paper. I believe this shouldn't happen and the best way to accomplish this is to set aside religious difference, pull our heads out of our asses, and just learn to deal with each other "humanely" (I love the irony of that word). So I'm against pre-emptive strikes, because violence begets violence etc... I'm not necessarily liberal. I like owning a gun, I do think people should die if they kill out of hatred, but I'm also pro-abortion (not pro-choice..) pro abortion. TOO MANY PEOPLE. Regardless.. These are my values. I consider myself a "Radical Moderate" Balance at all costs kind of guy. Since you wanted to know...

#89

Can I have your autograph?

#126:

I consider myself a "Radical Moderate"

Sory to ask, but ain't that an oxymoron? I mean, OK, Michael Jackson considers himself a white black person, and Boy George considers himself a female male, but still I'm not quite sure... :) (no political incorrectness intended)

#124-

umm- sure gordon, I bet you too were educated in the last 20 years, most likely in a public school.

They didn't want Catholics, you say? Pennsylvania as colony of the Crown accepted Catholics, all kinds of them. Not to mention the later immigration of the German Catholics.

The Irish catholics were a different breed though. They plotted, repeatedly, with Rome, Spain and france to over throw the King/Queen of England in order to A) gain independance and B) Institute a Catholic theocracy with allegiance to Rome in all of the "Brittish Isles".

They were, therefore, justifiably looked on as a potential source of trouble at a time when the Nation was lurching toward war over other issues. Indeed, the Irish Draft riots and lynching of Blacks in NYC during the civil war may have proved the so called "know nothings" correct.

it's always best, Gordon, to actually study history and not depend on film makers, such as Scorcessy (SIC) , with an agenda to fill, for a filmed version of their history.

#124, Gorden. Same prescrition (#70) as Insidiot. It is a political disease and it seems that members of the party of Jefferson are most suceptable.

Lively-

I wonder if the WSJ figure of 20% was taking into consideratio suspected numbers of illegal aliens of the Muslim persuasion, I don't remember.

Insidot-

Hmm, I say your a muslim, either that or a dhimmy with a pali girlfriend. I "met" a canadien like that once. He instisted he was just a good ole french canadien who believed america had 9/11 comming to it ofr it's arrogance. He even was kind enough to do a plai version of middle east history-

Of course, in time, it came out, all of his misinformation came from his Lebanese/Muslim girl friend. I wont say how I got him to admit it, but I will say it came out while he was calling me a bigot.

Hans - It is an oxymoron, but I revel in the hypocrisy of this age, on both sides left and right, so I made up my own little absurd philosophy and called it Radical Moderism. *shrug* its as absurd as dividing political ideology into two polarized extremes and then dividing the masses into one or the other. Quite frankly the entire idea of political parties should be expunged. Just tell me what you believe... I'll tell you if I like it... ha.. simplicity.. another tenet of the Radical Moderate

"Gordon"

It sure sounds like a lot of the posters on this site are followers of Michael Savage

It only sounds like that to a deaf mute.

Insidiot:

I'm suggesting that that a period of renewal and and brotherhood between two religious groups, who share more in common than they think, is probably the only means to ending Islamic violence. Its like pre-school.. we all need to learn how to share. yay!

Ah. A solution straight out of the "Weekly Reader" school of history.

The Islamofascists don't want a "period of renewal and brotherhood". They want to slit our throats. They consider it their holy duty to do so, and view any attempt we make at "brotherhood" to be just the opportunity they need.

Happy thoughts and "time out" might be nice ideas, but they don't work.

Anyone want to guess as to when Notre Dame de Paris will be turned into a Mosque?

Robby -

But I'm not a Muslim. I say you're a Phoenicean. I say you're black with blond hair.

So I'm against pre-emptive strikes, because violence begets violence etc...

You really are incredibly ignorant, aren't you? Don't tell me -- you teach in a public school, right?

Quite frankly the entire idea of political parties should be expunged.

Because, after all, no one should be allowed freedom of association, right? It's just too dangerous when people get together, discuss politics, find ideas they agree on, and try to implement those ideas.

God save us from the simpletons like the aptly named "Insidiot".

in #36 hcq asks:

imams who propagate views that run counter to French values will be expelled

Can somebody please explain what those "French values" might be?

The "French values" in quesiton: Anti-Americanism, haterd of Jews, official corruption.

So pro-American, pro-Jewish, or anti-corruption imams can look forward to exile from La Belle France. Clear enough?

Insidiot: You should learn something about Islam before you form opinions about it. I understand your criticism of Christian fundamentalists and share your disapproval of them, but being aware of and opposed to the excesses of Christian--or, for that matter, Hindu--fundamentalists does not somehow relieve Islamism of it's ubiquitous problematic elements. Study the conquests of Islam in North Africa, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, the Eastern Mediterranean, Persia, and Central and South Asia (search for BABAR--not a happy elephant in children's story) also read "The Table" from the Koran--in its entirety (Islamism's apologists often quote nice sounding excerpts from this surah, quite out of context, in an effort to disguise the fact that it is hate literature). You can find it here: Surah 5 The Table
Or here: Koran: 5 - The Dinner Table

Then do some research into the the Haditha and scholarly commentary the lessons and guidance provided by study of the Koran and Haditha.

Unless you would prefer to remain in happy ignorance.

Robert Crawford -

Ad hominem. Marginalizing with a word or association. Name calling. Then you follow this up with a generalization of what all Islamo-fascists want. Ignorance upon ignorance. Nobody wants their friends and loved ones to die, and so most would sacrifice ideology for peace.

Methinks this thread is getting out of hand...................

One more thing........

The GT Revolution is underway!!!

#136 Robert Crawford

God save us from the simpletons like the aptly named "Insidiot".

The name alone was fair warning! :)

He/she/it seems awfully hung up on accusing others of racism, yet spouts it as if it's second nature. Waste of time.

Insidiot (#138)

Trust me. Islamofascists want tyranny or death. No middle ground exists- after all, no government conscripted them to join Al-Qaeda. I say, martyr them and send them to their 35-year old male Star Trek virgins.

Charles, when the French numb nuts begin to notice the Islamist crocadiles devouring their most sacred institutions, both real and imagined, let us hope that we are wise enough to reduce the agrivation of Islam in America to the pecking of ducks

Winged Vengeance -

Nice name. Art though Gabriel at Gemorrah? Here's what I see, a violation of the Koran's law:

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

Seems like a warning against a misinterpretation of Jihad to me.. depends on your interpretation, what you're looking for.

] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

This is the very definition of self-defense... thanks for the lesson.

Because, after all, no one should be allowed freedom of association, right? It's just too dangerous when people get together, discuss politics, find ideas they agree on, and try to implement those ideas.

How about freedom from pushy fools who thirst for power at the expense of other groups. George Washington warned us against the likes of you.. Its become a competition, noone tries to make things better for the whole. But rather for themselves.

Ad hominem. Marginalizing with a word or association. Name calling. Then you follow this up with a generalization of what all Islamo-fascists want. Ignorance upon ignorance.

Except that all of it applies. You yourself said your political ideals were straight out of pre-school. I was concurring, and emphasizing that they're completely unworklable, unrealistic, and based on an profound ignorance of human nature.

And, bubba, my comment on what Islamofascists want was NOT a generalization. I've read what they say. I've seen what they do.

Nobody wants their friends and loved ones to die, and so most would sacrifice ideology for peace.

Really?

Like the Germans threw out Hitler when it was clear he was leading them into war with EVERYONE?

Or like the Japanese deposed their emperor as he and his military elite did the same?

Or like the Taliban handed over bin Laden when the US demanded he be handed over?

Or like the Palestinians have given up on "right of return"?

You really are quite ignorant. There are plenty of people who would gleefully sacrifice their loved ones for the sake of their ideology. I've seen self-described pacifists say they'd rather see everyone they know die than compromise their ideals.

F THE FRENCH

re: 71 Caton
Actually, if you're referring to S618 Le Vigilant, she's a member of the S616 Le Triomphant class which has been in the water since 1993. IMHO, French technology hasn't advanced enough in that period to suggest that S618 will be significantly quieter than S616, even if they get an assist from the ex-Soviets. I'm not a practicing naval analyst, though, so my opinion might not be as well informed as yours.

As I understand it, one of the factors behind the continuing antisemetic drumbeat is the propaganda driveled out by Paul. Just about the same time the Jewish revolt was being flattened by the Romans (imagine, the Jews wanted their own state again) Paul was try to convert the gentiles. One of the things he needed to do was disconnect Christianity from Judism. The other thing he needed to do was disconnect Romans from the blood-guilt of crucifying Jesus.

He was really slick about that with his Pilat quote "I see no guilt in this man." Now we have a picture of the Jewish hierarchy insisting on the execution of an innocent man and the Roman govenor unable to nay say them (right!!!).

Throughout the Christinan world, now, Jews are the ones guilty of murdering Christ. Add to that, historically, antisemetic laws more or less forced Jews into money lending and other "shady" (read profit making) activities during the dark ages. Now we have a religious group who are despised because of what their ancestors did, who are wealthy, and who are the lenders to anyone who wants a loan.

The sad part is that so many antisemites are folks who claim to be athiestic but who are blindly following some really bad religious propaganda from a long, long time ago.

Robert Crawford -

Damn.. I'm losing my cool. I promised I wouldn't. I did not say my ideology was out of pre-school. I didn't say I didn't understand human nature. I said human nature could change. You are of the opinion that human nature is inherently agressive or evil, or something, and needs to be controlled. This idea was best espoused by taming of the savages during the period of the "White Man's Burden", it has become abstracted and changed into the "Free Man's Burden" by the likes of you. If you control with force, equal force will be in turn reciprocated. Its the other law of human nature, "he who troubleth his own home shall inherit the wind," the earth is our collective home. And you are in the wrong as much as the islamo-fascists. Do not become what you hate!

"After all cause and effect... If you put something into the atmosphere, the system responds with a homeostatic effect to produce a kind of balance. In other words, I see a self-fulfilling apocalypse on its way, where famine, disease, wars etc.. "

What in the hell are you talking about? Your grasp on the nature of 'cause and effect' is strange to me. There are a few procedures you have to follow in order to establish a causal relationship, and I am not convinced you're aware of them. One of the more important ones is making sure there are no other alternatives - ie. just because you show that there is a relationship that does not mean it's causal. What exactly are you studying in Buffalo?

Regarding systems applying a homeostatic effect - in this case (the atmosphere?). Do you know what that effect is - have you studied chaos theory? What is your scientific background? The atmosphere is a massive system, both in size and complexity ... and, frankly, I'm not sure you really understand the words you're typing

Somewhere there must be an enterprising fashion designer who is already planning a line of designer burquas and hijabs

How about freedom from pushy fools who thirst for power at the expense of other groups. George Washington warned us against the likes of you..

And Charlie McCarthy warned us against the likes of you.

Ignorance, facilitator of self deception, destroyer of coherent argument, light post on the pathways of darkness and failure.

#144-

Because, after all, no one should be allowed freedom of association, right? It's just too dangerous when people get together, discuss politics

here we see yet another example of a poor education (it's a deliberate act on the part of leftists, Orwell foresaw the dumbing down of the masses long ago) in this equating of immigration control with the Bill of Rights' granting permission for to freely associate and assemble. Of course any good leftist will immediately disavow this right when one wants a private organization that does indeed restrict association through membership- it then becomes an act of either racism or misogyny. either way, you just pollute it to fit your requirements. Never once should we actually asses it in terms of it's real meaning.

I've said it before. I'm saying it again.
Stop immigration of Muslims into the US, Now!

re: 88 Hans ze Beeman
IIRC, reason prevailed over calls for a similar boycott against Germany. It was successfully pointed out that, whatever their government said to the press, they did not travel to UN-voting nations to argue against the US, they did not continue to deliver weapons parts to Iraq, and they did not stand up and say (in effect) "talk to the hand, we're using our veto. nyah , nyah." Instead, Germans took over security at some US installations to free up US security troops, and (again IIRC) sent defensive troops to Turkey to free up US troops there. In short, while France has acted like an enemy, Germany has acted like a friend who disagrees with us.

re: 89 Model4

You're welcome to place fault with the people who did wrong in their names, but the institutions are blameless. Until you loan me the keys to your time-machine, my efforts will be confined to the present.

Excellent thoughts, well expressed. Please bring them with you to the Roadmap discussions.

#149

the earth is our collective home.

your marxism is showing.

#144-

A futher note on 144-

George W was decidedly an individualist. He was against mob style democracy- as all the founding fathers were. He was against immigration, except in very limited cases were it might benefit local labor needs. He was against non Judeo-Christian cultures. He was against foriegn influence in US afairs- as were all the founding fathers.

He was against, in short, anything that would attempt to circumvent the Constitution as it was written and not as it is now being attempted at redefinement by those on the left who proclaim it a "living document" as a means of undermining it's correct implementation. The "Federalist Papers" had a two fold intent, one was to explain the Constitution so it could be understood and ratified, the other was to last through out the ages as the correct and ONLY interpretation as a means of fending off those who would seek to corrupt it- like the Left is doing today, and has been for quite a while.

Charles requests that we don't feed the Trolls - but I feel that one of the great services of LGF is that by engaging the Trolls we can benefit form sharpening our arguments - we are in the middle of a major Kulturkampf, and the likes of Insidiot ( i suppose the nick is a contraction of instant idiot) provides a useful clay pigeon to sharpen our aim.

Its nearly impossible to determine the root cause of violence, but in my opinion, I see acts of hopeless desperation being caused not by poverty, but opression, in an extremely variable sense of the word. Case studies such as: school shootings, "going postal," where the attacker has no vision of the future, and only wishes to bring about one last effect. Israel and Palestine are the key to easing these Islamic tensions, they aren't just "insane." I'm suggesting that that a period of renewal and and brotherhood between two religious groups, who share more in common than they think, is probably the only means to ending Islamic violence. Its like pre-school.. we all need to learn how to share. yay!

Admitedly the above is almost self fisking - complete with the dumb kumbayah sentimental sigh at the end. What precisely an "extremely variable sense" of the word opression means is certainly beyond me.

Islamic tensions might ease slightly for a couple of days when every Jew in Isreal is dead or fled - by the end of the week there will be "tensions" over the "theft" of East Timor, Kashmir or any of a dozen other places where islam seeks the return of lands lost. The Muslims who accept Isreal's right to exist are not the ones who are that tense.

The litany of Christian crimes and the lost wonders of the Arab golden age are more very dead ducks. All north africa , the Levant and Anatolia (Turkey) were Christain lands wrested by a fairly violent conquest. Persia and Northwest India were likewise military conversions. The slave trade in Africa was run by muslim caravans before the Europeans, and Muslims ran it afterwards as well, selling to Europeans. The conquest of the new world was a long and very complex story that becomes totally distorted when simple minded marxists try to turn it into morality tale. It is a tale full of perfidy and cruelty, and just as full of idealism and the first emergence of what we would now recognise as a recognition of universal human rights - whose roots lie in Christian theology.

The golden age of Arab civilization is largely a myth, as is the notion of comparitive European barbarism. The Arabs conquered areas that had been Hellenised, Romanised and then become Christian, and it was largely the civilizational capital of these extent civilizations which formed the basis of the Early Golden age through the Abbassids, Ummayads and later Seljuk and Ottomans. It is now also very clear that the high middle ages were a much greater effloresence than the later Renaissance hitorigraphers gave it credit for. The Cathedrals of Northern France, the Hansa League, the Flemish and Burgundian cultures - these were all facets of Europes long boom.

anyway enough Duckshooting for now.

I think the US had better start making plans to save the cultural and historical treasures from all over the world currently held in French museums.

We cannot, and I do not believe should, save the French from their own idiocy, but we can save the treasures in those musuems. Those objects supposedly belong to the people of the world, so I think they should be moved to a safer locale. In twenty years France will be over run by those Radical Islamo-fascist b*stards.

Don't let them burn the Mona Lisa, or any of the other priceless artifacts in France.

As with many of the previous posts, I think it would be a hoot if France became a radical islamic state smack in the middle of Europe. First-things-first though - gid rid of their nukes!

#161,Eric Sivula. The spread of the final enlightenment of Islamic culture in France will be marked by mapping decapitated statues of French heros.

France,

Has already surrendered to Islam. It is just a matter of time before it becomes complete. This latest threat against "extremists" is absurd, even laughable. If the French Government really meant it, they'd never have said it.

There is no concession to Islam short of abject surrender that can be acceptable to Muslims. All the French bowing and scraping to Islam, all their conspiring to defeat the USA, all the French-Government mosque building, all their currying of favor with the most extreme elements of Islam will not protect them from the coming storm. It will not be enough, the Muslim's will demand more and will get it.

If the French government tries to make good on it's threat, even once in any kind of high profile situation, there will be an outbreak of terror attacks within France that will force yet further and more rapid concessions.

France is lost. Time to move on.

#160-

Very very well said Johan.

#125   trevalyan 

OK, I'm back from lunch.

The Jews weren't hated by the Romans for that reason. However, there is good reason to suspect they were envied and hated by the other powers in the region when they were dominant. Can you deny that?

Which great nation hasn't been envied or hated?

I don't know. I'm with Insidiot on this. No one is evil. If you love them, they will love you back. The millions of murders and innumerable acts of cruelty that occur every year in this world are all just someone lashing out because he wants love and understanding. I don't need evidence for this claim; it just is so.

Islamic texts emphasize killing infidels, but they don't mean that. Buddhist texts speak only of non-violence, but that could just as easily be read as violence. Nothing means anything. Um, it's called "postmodernism," but maybe you people arguing against Insidiot are stuck back in the old days and didn't get the memo.

There should be no more divisive political forums. We should share everything with everyone. In such a system, no one would take advantage of anyone else. People would be good in such a good system. I don't need evidence for this; it just is so. Um, it's called "equality" and "social justice," but maybe some of you didn't get the memo.

I think it's time for those of you who are resisting aggressors, scrutinizing texts, and making distinctions of value to submitted to those you oppose. You will be well received. Submission is peace. Islam is peace.

/sarcasm off

Johan:

What precisely an "extremely variable sense" of the word opression means is certainly beyond me.

As far as I can tell, it translates to "the word 'oppression' means what I mean it to, at the moment I'm using it, unless it's necessary for me to change what I mean, at which point it means something else."

Basically, some people, of a particular stripe of politics and (lack of) thought, want to use words that carry weight, because those words can influence others. However, the accepted meaning of those words do not fit where they're wanted. So, the meaning must become flexible, fuzzy, imprecise.

Thus, we have a "massacre" in Jenin. The closest the dictionary comes to that usage is "a severe defeat, as in sports". But the word was chosen because its primary meaning is "the act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly", a meaning that carries a great deal of weight.

Similarly, "oppression" primarily means "kept down by severe and unjust use of force or authority", but by using it in an "extremely variable sense", you can stretch it to cover well-educated, wealthy, priviledged people who resort to violence because they don't get what they want when they want it.

I'm sure Orwell would have loved the phrase "extremely variable sense". No doubt it would have inspired a sequel to "Politics and the English Language".

Oh, and Johan -- very well said.

insidiot wrote

But I know that marginalizing a group of people and dividing them by any distinction is the most pervasive form of ignorance

I don't think we are dividing and marginalizing muslims who reject modern notions of human rights. They are doing that to themselves. Much like the KKK has done here in the south. How bigoted and ignorant of me to toss around slurs about the Klan, eh?

And, if you are referring to Andalusia as the repository of civilization during the dark ages, please read this. How do you think Islam got to the Iberian peninsula in the first place? It certainly wasn't by proselytizing.

"Islamic law will be applied nowhere because it is not the law of the (French) Republic," he said.

...."yet" is what got left out of the quote.

Insidiot's posts have led to many interesting conversational threads. Though it doesn't seem possible, I don't think the overarching problem he thinks he has identified has been adequately addressed.

His equivalence of the sins of Christendom with those of Islam ignores the fact that Christianity is self-correcting in a way that Islam is not. By that I mean that the principles enunciated throughout all of scripture are perfectly clear and consistent--forgiveness, mercy and all the rest (see the Sermon on the Mount, 10 commandments (actually there are a few more! :), etc. ) Individuals and nations must grow in perfection. Some do it far better than others.

Any religion must deal with real people where they are. And where they are may not be very pretty. When Christianity was imposed on the Vikings in the 12th century, does any one suppose that they became peace loving, kindly souls? No, it took centuries.

And we see that throughout all of the last 2000 years. When Bishop Wulfila translated the Bible for the Goths, he left out the book of Kings because he thought the description of the wars would inflame an already too warlike people.

We have a real problem here in the West dealing with those who hold in contempt our principles (derived from both the Jews and the Christians, not to mention the Greeks). We strive for liberty, tolerance, etc. They don't. What are we going to do about it? What can we do without violating our principles? In a way, though I heartily despise the current French regime, they do have a problem that is not so easy to resolve.

#155 Alf :

I've said it before. I'm saying it again. Stop immigration of Muslims into the US, Now!

I do not disagree. I just would like to have a modification:

Stop immigration of Muslims into the West (New Zealand, Australia, Canada, USA, Europe), Now!

Maybe include Russia, Japan, China and some others also.

I am a Patriot, with a modification: I do not specifically care about the country where I was born or where I currently live.

I care about the Western culture, or any decent culture.

As I understand it, one of the factors behind the continuing antisemetic drumbeat is the propaganda driveled out by Paul. Just about the same time the Jewish revolt was being flattened by the Romans (imagine, the Jews wanted their own state again) Paul was try to convert the gentiles. One of the things he needed to do was disconnect Christianity from Judism. The other thing he needed to do was disconnect Romans from the blood-guilt of crucifying Jesus.

This really doesn't make much sense. Paul wrote at great length about the Jews, most pronounced in the Epistle to the Romans. Ch 11-13

How does "All Isreal shall be saved" make him an anti-semite.

You are getting this accusation mixed up with John, the writer of the 4th and last Gospel. It was written during a time when the early Church was being heavily persecuted by both the ruling Jewish leaders (one of which was Saul of Tarsus) and Roman authorities. The Acts of the Apostles (written by Luke) records this period well. The themes of John that could be used in an accusation of anti-semitism are present also in Mark, the earliest Gospel. There is a noticable progressoin in the tone of the writings as you progrees forward in time.

It was not only the Jews who crucified Christ, it was you and me and every sinner on this planet.

"This is my body, broken for you." "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

#162 Little Joe: Would that not be a hoot? After months of savage civil war in France, the US troops arrive storming the beaches and dropping from parachutes. We fight fiercely to get to our objectives and secure every last warhead, taking them out of the country. Then we go home. It'd be perfect! After all, it would be too simplistic and arrogant to take sides, and we wouldn't want to impose our imperial hegemon in cowboy fashion upon France. Perhaps containment would be the better solution, with a resort to war always meaning failure.

The Louvre? Let it burn. I'm tired of people in a country with a mere 60 years of sovereignty under its belt pointing at some portrait from 300 years ago as "proof" of their intellectual and moral superiority. While I'd regret the loss of the artifacts, it wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, and it might shock France into becoming a country capable of creating more art for the ages. They might even decide that a Renoir is worth the cost of defending, even if they don't think their people and values aren't. As for non-French items displayed there? The message would be 1) Don't trust the French, and 2) You should have listened to the people who long ago said "Don't trust the French."
---
Celissa: Any time! But I'll insist on one in return. :)
---
BTW, how screwed up is Buffalo if guys from California are able to deride the city? Heh. Oops!

Rabidfox,

The History Channel or Learning Channel are not complete sources of truth. They delve into areas of speculation and theory and have a tendency to present such speculation as truth, but in the end, all it is is guesswork.

There is specualtion that early Christianity tried to take away the guilt of the Romans in so that they would not be as persecuted, but there are no hard core facts pertaining to such speculation. Be careful what you present as "fact".

Chiraq claims France is America's "best ally".
[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

#172-

What are we going to do about it? What can we do without violating our principles?

it is not a violation of our principles to close the gates of the Kingdom, and protect it's lights, to keep them from going out. "The City of God" makes a very good case for just wars and as such, protecting ourselves, our culture and that which made it- Judao-Christianity. We have not violated our principles by asking that those we allow abide by these principles, on the contrary - both the OT and the NT attest to this. "If they right hand offend thee, cut it off" is most appropriate.

To do otherwise is to either condemn ourselves, or worse, our children/grandchildren, etc. to a form of suicide, which is definately not allowed by Judao-Christianity.

France an ally!? That is a lie.

#172
#178 Robert

What we can do is limit, curtail or stop immigration of Muslims into the US.

Look at Iraq. There are people there who want to set up an Islamic State which recognizes only the law of the Koran. They had boycotted democratic talks yesterday because they don't want a western style democracy. In other words, Islamic Fascism will subvert any democratic society in order to install an Islamic State. This is not about poverty or oppression. This is about spreading Islam.

Can you imagine the problems our children and grandchildren are going to have twenty or thirty years from now in the US if Muslim immigration continues unabated. Imagine when Muslims take over the city council of an American city and announce that only Islamic Law will be recognized. Think that's far fetched? I don't.

Want to know what a liberal immigration policy produces? Look at Germany and France.

I agree, Alf.

#75 Rube says "a fundamentalist Southern Baptist state would be just as bad as any Muslim state."

I beg to differ/horseshit. Southern Baptists of any description would be a nuisance at the very worst.

Alf:

I agree that we could (but will we?) stop more muslim immigrants from coming in but what do we do (or what does France do, for that matter) with the ones who are here? Expel them? Lock them up? Even if they are American citizens? Our own values will not allow it easily.

What about freedom of religion? How do we ground a decision, morally and legally, to forcibly "convert" muslims to our way of thinking, if it is at odds with their religious beliefs?

If for no other reason, I wouldn't want to do it and set Tim Robbins off again!

Nattes de prière! Obtenez vos nattes de prière ici!

(English translation):

Prayer mats! Get your prayer mats here!

Insidiot:

My Kenyan cousins were blown to bits in 1998 and 2003 merely for not hating Americans and Israelis. My American ones were blown to bits in 2001.

Do I hate Arabs and Muslims (including black ones)? Maybe not, but I won't get in a snit because some high and mighty so-called moralist calls me a bigot because I shed no tears at Arab and/or Muslim "misfortune."

#183 careworn

What about freedom of religion? How do we ground a decision, morally and legally, to forcibly "convert" muslims to our way of thinking, if it is at odds with their religious beliefs?

Muslims over here are using just that way of thinking to subvert our society. Islam is also politics. Therefore, it is within the rights of our society to examine it in all its facets, and criticise it as we see fit. CAIR and others step back and forth from behind the veil of religious freedom as they see the need. Their system of beliefs preaches the downfall of our way of life.

Our legislature should exempt our law enforcement agencies from some of the restrictions with respect to Muslims.

When Paris is over run (note I said when, not if) and they ask the US for help liberating their country onnneeee more time, we can tell them to get onnneeee more resolution from the UN. They need to be reminded that there is no big hurry and they should give diplomacy more of a chance.

#148 Rabidfox
Heed the above warnings re: the History Channel.
Pilate is mentioned once, as a historic footnote,in the writings attributed to Paul.
The incident to which we think you are referring is in the Gospels - none of which were written by Paul.
In light of the following three plus centuries of off and on Roman persecution of Christians, I fail to see your point re: exonerating the Romans of the Crucifixion. If that was the aim, it didn't work very well. I suggest a reading of the last few chapters of the four Gospels, paying especial attention to the trial of Jesus.
It really, really helps to go to the source.

#160 Johan - nicely done! Thanks especially for giving props to the High Middle Ages.

Since we are talking French here, I have a question. Why does Jean Luc Picard speak with a British accent? Is there hope in coming centuries that Britian will invade and occupy France at some point (not as hard as it sounds)? You will be assimilated, resistance is futile!

"We want to say very simply: imams who propagate views that run counter to French values will be expelled," Sarkozy told Europe-1 radio on Tuesday.

Just imagine the howls from the oh-so-sophisticated French and our own leftists if Ashcroft said something like that.

#177

Now that's funny.

anyone who has lived in the south of france for any lengh of time knows it is undergoing a crime wave caused by its peace loving north african pisslamic inhabitants--ask a french cop to go into a cite-banlieu[project-suburb] in any part of france after nightfall and he will look at you as if you asked him to go unarmed into a cage of wild jackels--french girls who walk by themselves in these cites at any time are assaulted and raped by these sex starved [bigoted word]s--get real --it is the poulets coming home to roost--couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of pomo left wing elitist anti- semite shower starved vacation taking poufters

mmmm....mmmm....mmmm....my shariona

Insidiot,

Islam is primarily a legal, political, economic and social system. As such it is neither racist or xenophobic to criticize it. On the contrary, it is the only reasoned course to take. If muslims can't handle the criticism, that is their problem not mine. The religious mumbo jumbo was fabricated by Muhammed to brainwash and/or coerce his followers. Islam is least of all a religion.

Slavery was universally practiced 300 years ago. The africans that were sold into european slavery were rounded up and sold by muslims. Over the last 300 years, the Christian world has outlawed slavery. Meanwhile, slavery is practiced widely today in the Islamic world because that which is prescribed by "Allah" cannot be outlawed by man-made law.

Take a look at a map of the Islamic world today. Ask yourself what happened to the numerous cultures and civilizations that existed before Islam. Outside of the Arabian Peninsula, the answer is mostly genocide. To this day, Islam has bloody borders everywhere it reaches.

Face it. Islam is a savage medevil cult. The only difference between Islam and the People's Temple (of Jim Jones fame) is 1400 years.

My grandfather must be spinning in his grave right now. He died fighting off fighting off one form of xenophobic totalitarianism for these fools, and the French just rolled over for another version of it.

Then again, it might drive home the point to Europe.

Then again, it might not. Personally I'm digusted.

Unlike other contributors here, I don't think France will capitulate to Sharia. I think it'll be genocide. And they won't think for a second to give a shit what any "Security Council" thinks.

Let the Muslim apologists put that future in their pipe and smoke it.

As for French nukes: yet another reason for missile defense sooner rather than later.

#149 Insidiot,

Force used to put a system in a prefered state may not need to be maintained.

Which is why stable political systems have elements of democracy.

So the prefered state may be found.

#147 Grognard

Actually, if you're referring to S618 Le Vigilant, she's a member of the S616 Le Triomphant class which has been in the water since 1993.

I've been told that Le Triomphant and Le Téméraire have been built to slightly different specifications than Le Vigilant and Le Terrible.

BTW, construction of Le Triomphant started in 1993, she's been operational since 1997.

IMHO, French technology hasn't advanced enough in that period to suggest that S618 will be significantly quieter than S616, even if they get an assist from the ex-Soviets.

The Soviets have never been very silent... no, the French Navy didn't get any assist from Russia on this.
IIUC, in the M51 specifications, every possible source of vibration is mounted on silent-blocks. In the new specification, the silent-blocks are different and significantly more silent -- and cost twice as much. I don't have any more information on this. Or to be truthful, I didn't understand anything more.

I'm not a practicing naval analyst, though, so my opinion might not be as well informed as yours.

Neither am I, but I have a friend who was a Contre-Amiral in the French Navy and has worked on this program until he retired, 8 months ago. He claims the Triomphant class is as silent as an Ohio, and the Vigilant and Terrible will be more silent.

He also claims it's wasted money anyway, because the Triomphant class is silent enough to escape detection by anybody but the American and British, and the detection mode used by the U.S. and the U.K. --looking for "black holes" that mask the background noise, as he put it-- will only work better with a more silent submarine.

Which is why I tend to believe him, even if I didn't understand about 95% of his explanations.

Interesting talk of Romans and Jews. Having read the complete works of Josephus - I can say that the fanaticism that we see from muslims today in that part of the world had their equivalent in Judea back then. The Romans were stopping religious fanatics. Who really burnt Rome (America today) in 64AD? Was it a bunch of religious nuts that actually tried to bring about Revelations and apocalypse nonsense then rampant throughout the ME? Even a moderate like Josephus was caught in circumstances that he had no control over as the extremists kept winning the day and in the end brought about their own destruction. I fear we will need to march on Mecca.

[Link: www.washtimes.com...]

#13 Buddy the problem is with a race and a religion.
destroy them.
No more problem!
yes..... I hate A rabs and Is lam if this makes me a racist so be it, if it makes me a bad person so be it.

France.....C'est La Vie! suffer froggys!

Robert Brantjen, Robert Crawford, Johan, etc., you are, indeed, all "know-nothings."

Sheesh. Not even a troll... can't you at least come up with some form of bait, Gordon, rather than just insults?

We will just GAZE, then.

Immigrants are what have made this country great. They made it great in 1607 in Jamestown, in 1620 in Plymouth, in 1681 in Philadelphia.

They made it great in the early 1700's with the coming of the Pennsylvania Deutsch (Germans, not Dutch). They made it great in the middle 1700's with the coming of the Scotch-Irish. Again in 1849 after the Irish potato famine. Again in the 1880's after the pogroms against Jews started in Czarist Russia. Again in the 1890's when the Italians (the "evil unassimilable Mexicans" of the period) starting showing up in droves. Even the ones brought here against their will as slaves have made this a better country.

Then in 1925 a Congress filled with know-nothing immigrant bashers like you folks (and a few KKK members too) passed a restrictive immigation law. Result? The Great Depression.

Well guess what. The poor that want to come and make a better life for themselves aren't white Europeans any more. They're Asians, Latin Americans, Africans, Arabs, Indians. They don't have the same color skin as us (or most of us). Some of them have funny looking eyes too. Some of them are (gasp) not Christians. They speak all sorts of languages (and there are admittedly some misguided idiots who want them to keep their native languages instead of learning English).

But I haven't noticed any Great Depressions lately. I have noticed a few wild-eyed terrorists here illegally blowing up buildings, but I don't think that's a good reason to kick all Muslims out of the US or not to let any more in. The celebrations in Dearborn over the overthrow of Saddam are more representative.

So, I repeat. When are all you know-nothings going to figure out the real facts and get over your RACIST FASCIST PREJUDICES!?

#204 - Gordon-

Oh really? Nice spin you place on it all. The immigrants who came here prior to 1965's Immigration reform act (note that the period after WW2, in which the only immigrants comming here were Euros (Jews) escaping war torn Europe or Communism) were 95% Europeans, of Judeao-Christian decent. There were no Muslims or Hindus amongst them and the founding fathers were nearly all against Immigration- especially in numbers such as the last 10 years - 2 million/year is a sum no Nation can assimilate.

The massive numbers of Unemployed during the Great Depression where almost all immigrants wwho couldn't speak English- My Father grew up during that time period, and His father never laid off a single man/woman during the depression. All 100 of his Machinists were highly skilled individuals- not poor immigrants without skills, just as today.

Your redicuous assertion that limiting immigration to a "mere 250,000" immigrants per year, along with testing them for communicalble diseases (thanks to bill cliton, we no longer do) was the cause for the Depression is laughable- I have never heard that one before. Most credit it to the massive Bank Failure rate following the Stock Market Failure, but i guess it had more to do with no longer importing flu carrying, uneducated labor from Europe.

The truth is, had we not had an over supply of unskilled labor, due to excessive immigration rates, the depression might have only lasted a year or two- the norm in America for the preseeding 140 years of american history, and the norm since.

The Immigration Act of 1926 ( you moron) was a result of several things- first, the growing numbers of unemployed immigrants. Two, the growing crime problem in cities with large numbers of immigrants. 3, following the Great Flu Epidemic the American public- the citizensDemanded that the government control the importation of life threatening communicable deseases.

Those of us who are CITIZENS have every right to say who can and cannot come here, asswipe, not you people who aren't citizens.

What in hell makes any of you people from the 3rd world think Americans want you to all move here and make our country in a cess pool like you did your native countries? Hmmm? Why don't you all just stay there and fix your own godamn mess instead of comming here and making America over into your image- all thw while expecting the American Tax Payer (now just 50% of the population) to pay for it.

I DON'T WANT MINARETS IN MY COUNTRY

Excuse my typos, when I get mad, my typing skills really show/suffer.

Robert 205

Sorry I got the date wrong by one year. That makes my entire argument void of course.

Here's some reasons your counter was full of doo doo. The immigration law of 192whenever was passed during the height of prosperity, with extremely low unemployment - so that argument doesn't wash. As for crime, the boost in crime in the 1920's was not due to immigration, it was due to the idiocy of nativists like you who passed prohibition. Once alcohol became illegal the 1920's equivalent of the Columbian drug cartels (Al Capone, et. al.) rose up to supply the demand. Also, your flu prevention argument sounds like it is straight out of 1920's KKK literature.