A nice big long paved section of parking lot formally known as the Palestinian territories

If they want it cast in terms of them or us,

so be it.

I would prefer to spit on their graves, thank you very much.

It's simple. It's not going to work unless there is a Palestinian civil war - which is NOT going to happen.

Does the USA have any appetite for cleaning up Gaza like it did Iraq?

What's needed is a little wet job, with Abdullah of Jordan the target. With him toppled, Jordan becomes palestine faster than you can say 'Abu', and the pals currently on on ancestral jewish land can be transferred to 'palestine' to carry on their blood worship amongst the rest of their amalekite brothers.

Yes, how do you say Roadmap?

I was hoping arashat and his gang of baby murdering thugs would have learned something from Iraq.

More fool me.

Do any of you out there know the Talking Heads song "Heaven"?

yep. have it on right now...

Everyone is trying to get to the bar.
The name of the bar, the bar is called Heaven.
The band in Heaven plays my favorite song.
They play it once again, they play it all night long.

Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.

There is a party, everyone is there.
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time.
Its hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, and so much fun.

Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.

When this kiss is over it will start again.
It will not be any different, it will be exactly
the same.
It's hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, could be so much fun.

Heaven is a place where nothing every happens.
Heaven is a place where nothing every happens.

They keep broadcasting"We have a death wish"over and over and over and yet so many people deny that that is their rather clear goal.It is simply too difficult for normal people to say,"Ok here ya go.Say bye"

Israel should do to "Palestine" exactly what the US did to Iraq.

And they should have started two years ago.

What the hell are they waiting for?

For starters, Israel ought to drop several 2000lb bunker-busting bombs on the Arafat HQ in Ramallah.

Four Reasons for the Palestinians To Send the Bomber:

Saddam's Birthday
To Say the New Government Changes Nothing
To "Celebrate" Holocaust Memorial Day
To "Celebrate" Israel Indepence Day

Then they will simultaneously issue a condemnation in English while calling for more in Arabic.

Until Yasir goes the war does not end.

#4 has a point.

The US must act in the interest of the US, and the US alone. This war between Israel and the Palis must be ended. UBL stated that this was one of the primary motivations of Al Qaeda, to win a state for the Palis.

We must act quickly to restore a Lebanese government, destroy the Syrians, and replace Jordan with a trans-Jordanian nation mostly ruled by Palis. The one thing feared by all Arabs is a democracy. The Pali civil war will come from the competitive interests between the fanatics on the West Bank and other, more comfortable Palis in Jordan and beyond. The Israelis will need to settle on a border and stick with it. If settlements exist beyond the historical borders, then they must be removed.

The net result should be a Pali state in Jordan, a reborn Lebanon, a sedated and safe Israel, a cowering Saudi regime, and a permanently trigger happy US.

I dont understand these people.

The curse of the Nation of Israel is to live under the unbrealla of hatred with only a select few that will help in the fight against the evils of the world.

I blame the UN and the hope it gives to all dictators and terrorists.

Thanks Kofi and all of the UN for this suicide bomb.

This had to be expected. The last thing Arafat wants is an actual Palestinian State living alongside an intact Israel. Each and every time someone takes a baby step towartd the negotiating table, another bomb goes off. I would rant more about this, but that's what my own weblog is for.

I could just scream.

NO!!!! NOT MIKE'S PLACE!!! I was in Israel for 5 months last year and I think I went to Mike's about 5 times. Nothing like a tower of beer after a hard days work on a Kibbutz. Once again I have to call all of my friends that are still there and make sure everyone is ok. It hits you much harder when you've been to the places that are bombed.

The only solution is for Israel to annex the West Bank. Then the IDF can fix bayonets and deport this vermin from its territory. I've been saying this for twenty years, I hope the Knesset gets with the program.

I guess they need to suffer a bit more before they lose the will to fight. Resonable alternatives to war are still not attractive to the palis. They must be made attractive.

Arabs should be walled out of Israel.

No peace until the Palis burn in hell and that day is coming.

Palestinian Arabs have been waging a war against Israel while Israel has been performing police actions in reponse (and being condemned for it).

It is time for Israel to answer war with war.

Enough is enough.

It is time to treat this as what it is: A WAR

This is not a disagreement between rational entities, not a criminal act, not civil disobedience. It is an oganized military action supported and planned by a government (or government-like) entity. In short, a war. It is a war of the Palestinians against Israel and its allies, i.e. the USA. One does not negotiate away a war. Nor does one cajole or bribe an enemy to stop. One WINS a war.

Having identified the nature of this conflict, we must decide to win it. The tit for tat nonsense of the last few years, as well as the entire Vietnam War for that matter, has proven how dangerous non-victory-oriented military actions can be.

Having decided to win, history teaches that there are two ways to win a war:

1) Annhialate the enemy in totality: This is what we did to Germany in WWII. We fought our way to Berlin and put our soldiers into the Reichstag. The german surrender was more for ceremonial purposes.

2) Convince the enemy that they cannot win: Japan was the best example of this. By using the A-bomb, we convinced Hirohito that there was no chance of victory and he subsequently surrendered.

The first option is certainly morally viable and technically possible in this situation. A fleet of US strategic bombers could probably wipe out most of the Palestinians in a few nights using conventional and incendiary weapons. However, I personally don't find this option necessary.

Before exploring the second option, it is important to remember that most of the Palestinian people still believe that they can drive Israel into the sea. In a recent survey, (sorry I don't have the exact figures in front of me) something like 80% of Palestinian people thought that suicide bombing was a viable way to destroy Israel and establish a Palestinian state. To win, this perception must be changed.

As to the means, all we have to do is prove to the Palestinians that we are not only able (they know that already), but willing to decisively win this war whatever it takes. The Iraq victory helps, but it is apparently not enough. We have to shock the Palestinians back to reality.

Imagine, for example, if within a few hours of a suicide bomb, a MOAB, or a large number of smaller bombs, was dropped on the bomber's house, killing everyone within a few blocks. Subsequently a US warning would go out that future suicide bombings would bring about increasingly destructive retaliations. This single act would 1) convince potential suicide bombers that the cost of their actions to the family, friends and fellow Palestinians would vastly exceed any damage that they could inflict 2) convince the Palestinian people that they cannot, under any circumstances, win this war since at this rate, their population would quickly be decimated if the suicide attacks continue 3) convince Palestinian leaders that continuing this campaign would destroy their power base if not their own existences.

While this response will cetainly cause massive death, it is a much better option that the wholesale destruction of the Palestinian people and infinitely better than sacrificing innocent Israeli and American lives as this "cycle of violence" continues ad infinitum.

Every time there's a suicide bomber, I pay less attention to the Palestinians and become increasingly confident that they cannot be trusted with their own nation-state.

#20 Daniel

A polite phone call from President Bush to Arik telling him the U.S. will keep the 'international community' out of the conflict would be enough. A classic military operation against Gaza, targeted at destroying the whole terrorist infrastructure no matter what the collateral damage is will pass the same message with less casualties.

He's baaacckkkkk.

Saddam ‘will broadcast’

have the jews ever been able to get along with anyone, ever?

OT, but good (if unsurprising) news: Asylum for soldier’s rescue hero.

A government formed by people who think that random murder is a legitmate from of political protest would be a sick joke along the lines of the Kimar Rouge (SP?).

We need to let the rest of the world know that Israel 1) is a sovern (SP?) nation, 2) Israel is under attack from (a) foriegn nation(s), and 3) Israel has the right to defend herself to the fullest extent of her capabilities and to call on her allies for help.

#24
GAZE

may i say again, exactly who haven't the jews pissed off, over the last 5,000 years?

#24 Duke?

Nope. We're difficult. We're a tiny people who won't conform and won't roll over and play dead when bigger nations want us to. We've pissed off every hegemonic power in the Near East for the past 3000 years. Got a problem with that?

#24,
Yes they have. American Christians. Right now in the 21st century. If you are an American Christian who does not get along with Jews, know that you are the minority. Kindly go screw yourself.

Oh, and that's "Jews" with a capital J, davyduke.

The Arabs do not want peace. They want Israel scoured from the face of the Earth and all Jews killed.

The Arabs have to adjust that attitude.

In the meantime, Israel is at war and we should just let them fight it instead of insisting, as our State Department does, that they submit to genocide.

#22 Caton

You could very well be right, but I think that your option has several potential drawbacks. A classic operation, by which I assume that you mean one that includes a ground component (correct me if I am wrong), would needlessly subject Israeli/US soldiers to booby traps, snipers and suicide bombers. Jenin proved the dangers innate in such an operation.

The second issue that I see is that the psychological impression that would be left among the Palestinians from such a campaign would not be enough to convince them that their cause is hopeless. Concentrated destructive force is more psychologically effective than dispersed force, even if the latter is cumulatively more destructive. Firebombing Tokyo with thousands of bombers did not bring about Japanese surrender. Destroying Hiroshima and Nagasaki with two bombs did, even though the casualy counts in Tokyo were on the same order of magnitude.

The sad truth is that so long as the Palestinians as a society believe that they can win, they are all part of the terrorist infrastructure.

so you jews bear no responsibility for being disliked wherever you have been for the last 5,000 years?

Hey, everyone, remember The LGF Prayer

Oh Lord, grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls, the courage to debate with honest opponents, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hint: davy baby is the former.

keep kidding youself that American Christians are fond of you annoying jews, they tolerate you at best

Do you bear any responsability for offending just about everyone here?

#33

It's all our fault. We should have committed mass suicide or assimilated. On behalf of all the Jews in the world today and our historical forebears, I offer you my deepest apology for our continued existence as a distinct ethnocultural phenomenon.

You have no right to speak on behalf of all Americans.

Am I missing something?

Why should any civilized nation (Israel or the USA) put up with this?

Treat the Palis liked Rome treated Carthage...raze the area and sow it with salt.

They must not be assimilated but destroyed.

Re #20, Daniel..

In your second option, you suggest that the US drop a MOAB on the terrorist's house every time there is a suicide bombing. That sounds like good justice, but there's a problem: you cede the initiative to the enemy. There would be no tactical military goal, of defeating a group or expelling a few, or destroying the structure of the enemy. Instead, it's just tit-for-tat, although on a scale you suggest that the enemy cannot adhere to for too long. But essentially, the response you are looking for is political.

That belies your initial statement that this is a war. I agree, this IS a war - let's win it first on the battlefield, then worry about the political consequences, as we're doing in Iraq. The alternative might not be as dire as a choice between total anihiliation of the Palestinian people, or selected bombings in response to suicide attacks. But you should not cede the military initiative to the enemy, in hopes for a select political response. That is EXACTLY the problem that happened in Vietman and learning that lesson is why America kicked Iraqi ass this time around. Remember Gulf War 1 - "We're going to cut it's head off, then we're going to kill it."

Israel should conduct a military campaign against the Palestinians. I'm no military expert, but I know that politics has little place in war, and that bombing select houses in the hopes of changing minds is not the way to win a battle. It ignores the fog of war, and it's a half-assed Vietnam way to fight, and a virtual certainty that you will lose both the fight and the political response hoped for. No, instead what is necessary is to with the BATTLE. Israel should do exactly that, by whatever means necessary. Attacking hot spots, expelling them, firebombing, whatever. But the goal should be to destroy their infrastructure, kill or capture all enemy combatants, and secure the land. Once that is done, then Israel can decide to let any of them back in, create a new Trans-Palestine with Jordan, or whatever. But only when the initiative lies with Israel will that be possible, and such initiative will only be situated with them once they win the war.

Thank you Duke, on the cusp of a murderous rampage in Tel Aviv, you have nothing more to add than a rhetorical rant about J-E-W-S.

Allow me...

6,200,000,000 people in the world.

15,000,000 Jews out of 6,200,000,000

Equals======== .0024% of the world's total population.

I think it is high time the world starts to tolerate the mostly pussy Jewish nation, because cocksucking shitbags, like you, are the real pussies when confronting men like me, mother fucker.

Contact me and I will give you my address. If you have balls, you will show up at my door to learn what I do to antisemites.

Ignore the troll, already! If you want to go off topic, comment on the good news I posted.

OTOH, I guess I have to take responsibility for everybody ignoring me ;-)

Studsup (#31)

The Arabs do not want peace. They want Israel scoured from the face of the Earth and all Jews killed.

And it really is as simple as that. A non-Jewish friend said almost the identical thing to me today. She also said, "...but Israel never does anything, why don't they fight back?" I could weep.

The evil creep going by the name "the duke" has been banned.

Get the stinkin' troll out of here! On days like today I cannot take these Jew-hating, anti-Semitic scumbags.

And by the way, it was posting from Oak Ridge, New Jersey.

zulu, if you were in the room with me I'd offer you a hug. Will a "virtual" hug do? I know I could use one...

Oak Ridge, NJ? Drat, I was going to go there for a good reason, but I'm thinking of avoiding the Town now if that denizen is representative of that community.

Oak Ridge, NJ?

Hmm, only about 50 miles from where I live in NJ.

but I don't know why people get so upset about shit like that. Who cares?

A person can call me a white trash cracker ass dick smoking piece of shit and it won't offend me. This is the Internet. Every dickhead with a computer can hide behind that relative wall of anonimity and spew what ever he wants.

Don't let them get to you..

I keep heariing this idea that a sufficiently strong Isreali military response , and the treatment of the situation as the war that it in fact is, will shock Pelstinains back to reality.

This is wishful thinking - there already is a war goin on - Isreal already occupies the Palestinian territories, and it already inflicts repisals for each outrage and provocation. It already is the case that the Palestians are losing in the conventional military sense - Israel hits them in ways they cannot fight and regularly gets the right target. The Palestinian hope of an Arab army of liberation coming to their rescue has been comprehensively defeated on every single occassion it has been attempted - and the military equation between Israel and it's Arab enemies , potential or actual is even more lopsided now than before in Israels favour.

Given this one can only conclude that the Palestinians are so irrational that the shock required to make them wake up to reality is so big that I am really not sure that Israeli's could stomach it. And those who say that they can be brought around with a few more carrots must be ignorant of how much was offered at both Oslo and Camp David - only to be rejected. The Palestinians seem to be clear that they are engaged in vernichtungskreig - the Israeli's don't have the stomach for wholesale extermination and expulsion.

The only alternative I can see is to give the Westbank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt, biuld a wal around Israel and promise both Amman and Cairo that any further attacks from former Palestinian territory will be regarded as a cassus Belli. But even this solution is proably only a stop gap. Jordan stands every chance of becoming another crazed terror state and in Egypt the autocratic grip of Mubarak is not going to last for ever - and he sits on a seething powderkeg of frustrated radicalism that could blow all semblance of order away at any moment.

Not all Arabs are mad - the tragedy is that enough of them are to make the sane walk in fear.

The troll's main argument can be easily dealt with anyway. The fact that the Jews have been disliked by many other groups throughout history doesn't imply that the Jews are to be blamed. What about hatred of women, including witch trials in Western cultures and what goes on in Muslim countries today--are women to blame for the existence of this widespread misogyny? The mere facts of being a small, scattered minority that fiercely defends a portable culture and religion--and being conspicuously successful in so many fields of endeavor--are more than sufficient to explain the perennial existence of anti-Semitism IMHO.

#32 Daniel

I'm too tired for a long answer. The short one: the losses in Jenin were a consequence of the IDF 'purity of arms' doctrine. That doctrine has got to go.

To destroy the will to fight of the Palis as well as the whole Arab world, the IDF reputation for humanity must be replaced by one of total ruthlessness. A massive, classic operation in Gaza, Stalingrad-style, not stopped by the 'international community' but allowed to go to its bitter end --killing every member of every faction of the PLO as well as any Pali with a weapon-- and totally disregarding any collateral damage would achieve that goal, with very few casualties in the IDF as demonstrated by the recent incursions into Gaza.

re: 14 Martin S
I hope your friends are okay. The scene (on Fox) looked pretty grim, but localized, so if even if they were in the area there's hope.

To Everyone
We disagree often, but not now. This is horrible. For the time being, please allow me to grieve with you.

I've been on too many funereal honor guards. I know no words can really provide comfort, but that a hopeful thought might provide some solace. To that end, I submit that, as hard as it may be to believe right here, right now, the deaths tonight might not be in vain, but rather might be the bed of hope upon which the seeds of peace have been cast.

I just now watched the Israeli ambassadors to the US and UN on Fox. One of them said that Mahmoud Abbas has 48 hours to disarm HAMAS or be seen as a puppet of Arafat and thus forfeit any chance at peace. Given the circumstances, that sort of hyperbole is understandable, but he raised a good point: HAMAS may well have just fired the starting pistol of the race to their destruction.

If Abbas and Dahlan, who between them know all the important players in all the organizations, deliver the bomber (if he lives) and the bomb maker - dead or alive - to the IDF within 48 hours, tonight might be the turning point. It could well be hallowed in history as the first night of the end of the bloodshed, the night that the swords finally got lowered.

Grognard:

tonight might be the turning point.

I wish I could believe it, but it's just going to be the same-old, same-old. Sorry to be cynicallu, it's just that I've seen it too many times before.

cba (#47)

Now you really want to make me cry :-) Thank you, I do need a hug.

(Sending a big hug to you :-)

#54 should be "Sorry to be cynical... " (the one time I don't preview... rats!)

#50 Johan Wehtje

The only alternative I can see is to give the Westbank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt

Gaza was one of the most difficult issues during the peace talks with Egypt in Camp David. Israel wanted to give Gaza back to Egypt. Egypt threatened to walk out and wage another war rather than having to accept Gaza. Israel proposed to nuke Egypt into accepting to take Gaza back, starting with the dams on the Nile. Then the talks stopped being polite and restrained.

In the end, thanks to U.S. mediation, Israel was fucked and had to keep Gaza.

#40 Sydney Carton

I would make two points regarding your comment. The first is one that I already made to Caton, which is that even if we were to wipe out the infrastructure (bomb-making labs, tunnels, etc.), they could always be rebuilt to some degree by determined people. In this regard the nature of this fight is different from Iraq in that the Iraqi people were for the most part truly innocent victims. They wanted Saddam to lose and would only help him to the extent that they were forced to. The Palestinians on the other hand, have really bought into the Jihad concept on a widespread basis. America and Israel are not liberators to be welcomed, but infidels to be fought. Any real victory must, at least in part, include the Palestinian people acknowledging that there is no point in continuing the struggle. This is not a political victory. It has concrete military consequences.

My second point is that as I said in my original post, any large scale attack should be followed up with the guarantee that successively larger attacks will follow if terror attacks continue.

That being said, you are probably right that some degree of occupation would probably be necessary before this fight can be won. I see no way that the Palestinian government as it currently exists can play a role in a post-war Palestinian state. An occupation though, can be easy or brutal. A defeated Palestinian population would be much easier to deal with than an enraged mob willing to blow themselves up to kill occupying soldiers.

#51

Good points.

But why have the Jews been hated for so long? Is it because they are "different"? Honestly, I don't understand it.

When I was brought up as a young Christian, I was always taught the Jews were our brothers. They differed in faith a bit, but they worked hard, didn't rely on the government for handouts and assimilated to society as the Christians did.

Where does this hatred of Jews come from?

zulubaby (55). I'm a big believer in the magic of hugs. I think it's a big advantage women have--it's much harder for a man to ask for (or offer) a hug.

BTW, it appears that the current death toll is in fact 3, and the 5 was because the bomber blew into too many bits. Sorry, don't remember where I read it and I didn't note the link. Hope it doesn't go any higher.

Charles (#44)

Thank you.

re: 42 cba
Actually, while that's really good news for the lawyer, it's really bad news for us and for Iraq. Smart, compassionate people like him are and will be critical to rebuilding Iraq and turning it into an asset to society. If all the good people leave, we'll end up trying to rebuild the arabian equivalent of South Central LA.

OTOH, Local news implied that he and his family might be moving right here to the DC area. Sweet. That guy ain't gonna be buying any beers while I'm in the bar. Maybe I'll even get to introduce him to the agony of being a Red Sox fan.

The fact that the Jews have been disliked by many other groups throughout history doesn't imply that the Jews are to be blamed.

Indeed! Call it the "50 million Jew-haters can't be wrong" argument. And it's mighty interesting to see how the same fallacy is being applied today by the left to justify the international surge in anti-Americanism before and during the war. I've been reading some back issues of The New York Review of Books that I let pile up, and it's amazing to me how many articles they've run in the past few months boil down to the proposition that because many other countries dislike us, their grievances must be legitimate. One more reason why modern anti-Americanism is so reminiscent of anti-Semitism.

Found the link. It was in an AP article (written by Yoav Appel--definitely an Israeli name, which might explain the lack of "intifada body count" at the end).

#59

Well, I should have added--as Bernard Lewis points out--that Islam and Christianity both denigrate Jews in their sacred literature and, more often than not, in the teachings of their clergy because these two religions grow out of Judaism but claim to replace it. Those recalcitrant Jews who don't hear the 'new, improved' message are therefore a challenge to the proponents of the daughter religions. What could be wrong with these Jews, that they reject Jesus/Mohammed even when they're exposed to the truth?

Grognard (62). Good point. But maybe he'll go back in a few years when things have settled down a bit. In the meanwhile, I'm sure you won't be the only one buying him drinks!

I actually had a thought over the weekend. I had an epiphany listening to WNYC about how the music industry has simply started suing persons who traded in mp3's. What I realized is that there is the strategic and the tactical approach to things. Eradicating piracy in music could be approached strategically by simply busting the biggies, Napster and the others. Eventually this was insufficient and what now follows is a tactical approach - you trade; you get sued for copyright infringement. Messy, but just like traffic tickets it will simply become a part of life.
So to in combatting islam/muslims (no qualifications will be forthcoming: my intention is the entirety of islam, and every muslim) what needed to take place was a strategic hit after 9/11. Maybe the nuking of Macceh and Madeenuh and Gaza and the sharian neighbourhoods of France. It didn't happen. What needs to take place now are tactical moves; every time islam is performed, a village is sent to allah. Just like combatting mp3 trading tactically it's simply a messy game of catch up- so to fighting islam will be a messy game of eradicating sharianic society when it reveals itself. There doesn't seem to be any other choice.

BTW humanity can be proud of the human shields in this cafe, as most of the world moves away from being human there are still human beings alive.

cba (#60)

I pray that the death toll doesn't increase. I am anxious to know what Israel's next move is. I always cringe slightly at the thought of the IDF retaliation that is sure to follow these murderous bombings, but for some reason, with this one, I feel quite calm about it. I hope Israel unleashes holy terror on the bastards, I hope they hit back hard. I usually have a hard time saying things like that, I don't believe in wishing harm on people, but if ever there were a deserving crowd, it has to be the "Palestinians". Whatever compassion I may have had for them (the non-terrorist ones) has now ended. I didn't believe I could be more disgusted with them, but I surprised myself. I don't care what happens to them. They don't care what happens to me, or my people. And the same goes for every Jew-hater out there.

When I was a little girl, a guy in my class told me that Hitler didn't kill enough Jews and I slapped him across the face. I'm going back to that place. I've had enough.

Grognard #53,

What? You forgot to describe the Israeli treatment of the 'palestinians' as subhuman.

If Abbas and Dahlan, who between them know all the important players in all the organizations, deliver the bomber (if he lives) and the bomb maker - dead or alive - to the IDF within 48 hours,

I'll give you 10:1 odds on that not happening. Care to put some money on the table?

I was reading Conor Cruise O'Brien's book Seige the other night, and I was struck by his account of the Palestinian State that was drawn up under League of Nations authority in the 1920s, at the time when Palestine was a British Mandate.

The constitution would have provided for a democratically elected Assembly, in which Palestinian Arabs would have held a large majority of course, and would have guaranteed rights for minorities (Jews) and provided for continued Jewish immigration to Palestine.

Although a lot of Zionists opposed the constitution, Jews generally endorsed it (including Chaim Weizmann) as they felt it would at least guarantee their continued existence in Palestine.

The Palestinians shot it down. They denounced the Palestinian State at a conference in Nablus, and when the Brits tried to implement it anyway, they boycotted the elections and threatened violence. So the very first Palestinian State was destroyed, by Palestinians. Although it would have given them every advantage, it gave them less than everything, so they ruined it.

It's time to stop treating the Palestinians like spoiled children who have to be appeased at all costs. It's now up to them to show that they deserve what they demand.

Grognard (#53)

For the time being, please allow me to grieve with you.

I'm sorry, but while I appreciate the sentiment, I'm having a hard time with that.

Glen Wishard (#70)

It's now up to them to show that they deserve what they demand.

Never going to happen. They don't know how to behave like civilized people.

#32 daniel

the jenin operation was an effort to take out terrorists who were actually doing terrorism, or to put it another way, 'terrorist foot soldiers'

and this is necessary, but it's a betrayal of your own troops to do this and not also remove the leadership of the terrorists. And this, israel didn't even try to do.

Why?

they buy into the happy talk of arafat and others who claim they have no power to control their own palestinian people.

So, we must conclude that the israeli leadership is a little bit full of shit, to put it mildly.

The palestinians need to be killed from the top down, until they surrender, absolutely.

What's going on here is very similar to WWII, but on a stupidly smaller scale. The palestinians are dedicated and determined jew haters, same as the nazis. It's really the same philosophy, transplanted.

And as with hitler, you didn't need to kill every german to defeat it. But it would have been absurd to fancy foot around hitler's bunker so as to talk about peace.

What a disgusting joke the israeli leaders are dragging their people along with.

It makes me naseous, and I can't spell.

I don't think america will go into israel to help, with this. And this is just my estimation of the type of guys running our military.

This is clearly israel's fight, and if it doesn't step up and morally assert itself. People may very well conclude that it doesn't deserve to exist. Not only non-israelis either. I bet israelis will abandon israel if it doesn't shit or get off the pot. Religious delusion will only take you so far after your little girl comes home from school in a baggie.

The only "roadmap to peace" that's going to work with these people is when we simply pave over them... and uh... map out the roads we created I guess.

#31 Studsup:

The Palestinians do want peace. They always have.

The Palestinians will fight terror. They always have.

Remember when you listen to any Palestinian spokesperson they they use a very twisted vocabulary. Many words and phrases are meant to be misunderstood.

Charles—Thanks for banning The Duke, I guess. Does that mean he won't see my invitation to look up Numbers 24:9 in his [or her] favorite Bible?

Ben: Oh, he'll see it. He just won't be able to spew any more of his sick hate on this site.

#14 - It doesn't really matter if we know the place or not. What has happened is an attack on all of us regardless of where we are - that is the problem with terrorism. It can and will hit good people anywhere. That is why it needs to be warfare against all terrorists.

#15 - Annex the WB? The WB was Jordanian, and they ceded all rights to it in the peace with Israel. As far as international law goes - the land is Israel's to do with.

Basically - we've seen how it is with Arafart at the helm of the PA. Let's make him a martyr and see how that improves things. (It couldn't get worse).

#44 - Charles - thanks for banning the wanker.

#68 -

When I was a little girl, a guy in my class told me that Hitler didn't kill enough Jews and I slapped him across the face. I'm going back to that place. I've had enough.

Trust me, this time, there are more of us to stand with you - and a slap across the face is only the start. There is no tolerance for wankers like these. They want war - let's give them war.

Possible act of revenge: making an online donation to a cause that promotes real humanitarian values in the ME.
One suggestion is [Link: www.kerenmalki.org...] started by parents of one of the teenage girls murdered in Sbarro massacre last year. The father posted a note here a while back.

#73

Sharon has clearly stated on multiple occasions that he gave Bush his personal pledge not to harm Arafat, and that he feels bound to honor that pledge. This is a matter of public record.

George Bush has prevented Sharon from uprooting Arafat's terror regime the way that America uprooted the Taliban and the Iraqi Ba'athists.

George Bush has proclaimed Abu Mazen's government a reform government, thereby affording it US protection.

George Bush must demand that Abu Mazen deliver. Especially since the most recent attack, like the Hebrew University attack, targeted Americans.

Moe

Christianity both denigrate Jews in their sacred literature

I was brought up in a strict Evangelical household.

We never were taught to denigrate Jews. In fact, it was quite the opposite. My parents instilled in me a love of freedom and a respect for our Jewsih brethren.

However, I really have a problem with Jews crying "unfair" all the time. To me, it is on the level with Blacks whining that they aren't given preferential treatment over whites.

The Jews are strong and have dealt with persecution for ages. I would love for them to embrace that truth and not whine about injustice.

Use the strength that comes from adversity. It can only make to Jewish population stonger.

Athos (#77)

Trust me, this time, there are more of us to stand with you ...

For which I am grateful.

#33 the duke 4/29/2003 07:26PM PST

so you jews bear no responsibility for being disliked wherever you have been for the last 5,000 years?

David, your butt stinks. Shuttup.

GTC

CNN just reported on their 'news' channel that Abu Mazen was going to be invited to the White House when Powell goes to visit.

#11 MB

Interesting post:

The Israelis will need to settle on a border and stick with it. If settlements exist beyond the historical borders, then they must be removed.

Israel has never contested their borders. The arabs have. The land Israel now owns was won in wars instigated by arabs. Never has any country returned land that was won through war. Israel shouldn't either.

The net result should be a Pali state in Jordan, a reborn Lebanon, a sedated and safe Israel

Why do we want a sedated Israel. Secure maybe, but sedate? I don't think so.

If we disarm the Palestinians, peace happens. If we disarm (or sedate) Israel, it ceases to exist. Seems pretty obvious to me who the problem is. You partially dealt with it, but slid into weakness. Good try though.

This is good reading.

#79

this is my whole fucking point.

the leadership of israel HAS to stand up for itself, on it's own, and do the right thing

fuck bush, he's dead wrong

and we need an israeli who has enough balls to say this too

this is why I label the leadership of israel, moral cowards, they simply cannot stand on their own, or will not

and btw, I certainly like sharon and bush, but the problem may well be the state dept -- we're beginning to see the damn of moral relativism, moral cowardice cracking there.

Regardless of this, the clear responsiblity rests on the leadership of israel. It's israeli kids on busses and cafes getting slaughtered. I mean, come on...it's disgusting.

Athos,

As far as I know there's only one Athos. Did I fight you at Diamond Wars?

GTC (AKA Cathair)

zulubaby (#72) -

Something else I read lately:

I see with sorrow how a part of the people still clings to hopes of reaching a peaceful settlement with the Arabs. Common sense tells them that the Arabs haven't abandoned their basic aim of destroying the state; but the self-delusion and self-deception that have always plagued the Jews are at work again ... It's our great misfortune.

They want to believe, so they believe. They want not to see, so they shut their eyes. They want not to learn from thousands of years of history, so they distort it. It would be comic if it weren't so tragic.

- Lt. Col. Yonatan Netanyahu (1973)

I wish to hell it wasn't so. But it's not just a Jewish misfortune, it's a fault shared by the whole of the West. We don't want any enemies, we want to be everybody's friend. We want to shower food and money and freedom on every sorry son-of-a-bitch under the sun. So we get enemies galore, most of them mouthing arguments that we taught them ourselves.

#87

30 years!! and it's the same stupid game, what a pity.

Imagine if he had lived.

#8

"...Israel should do to "Palestine" exactly what the US did to Iraq.

And they should have started two years ago.

What the hell are they waiting for? ..."

A UN Resolution, of course!

(... and maybe some French and/or German paratroopers to back them up.) (...hmmm, well, maybe not the Germans, eh?)

Glen Wishard (#87)

So true. I was just saying how I don't want to be hated because I'm a Jew! I don't want enemies, I don't want war. I don't believe any of us in the West do.

#87

you know, the more I look at your remarks, I think you are blaming the victim

the enemies of the west are not the fault of the west

how? it's like saying that being civilzed or generous to people is somehow a fault

Maybe you should internalize colonel netanyahu's words a bit more

no offense

Moe, NC, et al,

Allow me to add by saying that if you pick any two nations that ever lived next to each other, odds are that they either bitterly hate each other, or did so at some point. Whether the Greeks and Turks, the Arabs and Persians, the Koreans and Japanese, the Brits and French, the French and Germans, the Serbians and Bulgarians -- well, you get the picture. The conflicts between nations and immigrant ethnic groups within the U.S. were and are quite entertaining in and of themselves -- there is no love lost between Mexicans and Puerto Ricans, for example, even though their nations haven't any historical grievances toward each other. Nations and ethnic groups conflict and fight. It's one of those universal human truths.

The thing is that the Jews, since the loss of their homeland, have been through virtually every nation -- i.e., they've lived next to just about everyone -- and in the process, have been victim to conflict, resentment, envy, and scapegoating that is sadly all-too-natural to our species. This isn't unique to Jews -- the Chinese in particular had similar stories throughout southeast Asia, where they too lived next to everybody, and often found themselves persecuted for being foreign, successful, and within arm's reach. (Most recently in Vietnam and Indonesia.)

The Jews' situation was made more difficult by (1) not having a land and nation to call their own (obviously not a problem for the Chinese) and (2) by having come through Europe and Western Civilization, which came to dominate the globe, calling disproportionate attention both to its history and its prejudices. But as to the claim that Jewish communities come to be hated wherever they go, it's true -- and so does everybody else. Most nations just happen to have the luxury of staying in one place, and having a fixed set of other nations who hate them.

#88 -

The thing about Netanyahu was, we wouldn't have chosen to live, if it meant that the mission might fail:

I believe that the Jewish people’s survival depends upon Israel, . . . and that Israel’s survival depends upon us.

I don’t regret the crossroads I’ve passed. Once past the crossing, I’m on my own way. And if there is more beauty, more sunflowers along the road, I didn’t take, I still don’t regret it, because it wasn’t my road.

Simple solution:

For every israeli life lost to a homicide bomber, raze a mosque.

Oops - in #93 I meant he would not have chosen to live, not "we".

Sad to say, my response to a deadly hostage situation would be to write angry e-mails about it. The sword I carry for my own country is something meager compared to the one Netanyahu wielded. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is nerdy ...

And no (#91), I am not "blaming the victim." Any more than Netanyahu was, when he wrote about "self-delusion" and "self-delusion". We err on the side of humane impulses - the US and Israel both. This is truly an error, but it comes from a good place.

Also from Yoni Netanyahu in 1973:

What I'm positive of is that their will be a next round, and others after that.
But I would opt for living here in continual battle than for becoming part of the wandering Jewish people. Any compromise will simply hasten the end. As I don't intend to tell my grandchildren about the Jewish state in the twentieth century as a mere brief and transient episode in thousands of years of wandering, I intend to hold on here with all my might.

I've spent the last day or so extolling the virtues of the roadmap, due to the changes...

Although I still think what I've been saying holds, I think there should be retribution for this act.

Personally, I would thoroughly bomb a certain location in Ramallah. I mean very thoroughly.

A bombing for a bombing.

Were all the human ideals to be given to me on the one hand and Israeli security on the other, I would choose Israeli security, because while it is good that there be a world full of peace, justice, and honesty, it is even more important that we be in it.

David Ben Gurion 1955

#93

thank you
...

It's a rough road ahead, now. And our regrets or wishes are not important any longer. Our only purpose now is to drive! Drive to victory!

Somebody earlier seemed worried about the prospect of "UBL's dream of Islamotopia vs. the West " becoming reality.

I'd like to see the WOT that well defined for all to see. It is already here. Let's get it into the open and kill it utterly.

Save Western Civilization.

Is anyone really surprised by this? The Arabs have always tried to terrorize the dhimmi into leaving, and whenever somebody from the west shows up with another "peace process" they pick up the tempo.

I expect more bombings in the weeks to come, not less.

It's odd that no one here, or in other forums, has pondered the possibility of a mutiny by Israeli soldiers, airmen or sailors. The fact that it has not happened may be the most demoralizing fact in all of this--an armed force allowing its civilian leadership to destroy the country they're sworn to defend.

Hundred! ;)

That's so very sad. I have yet to meet a palestinian who can keep themselves from spewing anti-semetic venom in public, let alone one who believes in a "live and let live" way of life.

There is so much hatred in them, it boggels the mind. As much as I dislike 3rd world immigrants- as you all know, I don't hate them. On an individual basis, I always "feel" for them- the look of down trodden souls, especially the children. Hate is such a powerful, all consuming emotion, it fairly destroys one's humanity, it leaves nothing left with which to live life.

I once read somewhere in some book, that in order to truly hate someone, you had to first love them- as they were such very similar emotions. I never really thought about it until I heard someone speak who actually did hate. Sounds odd I know, but I never knew anyone in my life, until college, who actually hated someone and wasn't just angry or envious.

But Palis hate Jews. You see it in their eyes when they talk about them. It makes their eyes almost glow- they fix upon you in a locking glare, and their facial muscles tighten to the point of breaking. They almost salivate when they talk about Jews and how their heroes such as arafat are going to get revenge. It's nausiating (sp). I have heard southerners from Mississppi who, while ardent racists, did not have that look in their eyes nor the tense facial muscles. The difference being, that they at least accept on some level the right of Blacks to exist, maybe.

And this is where I have always been baffled. I have never known liberal Jews on a close basis, all those that I know are long time Republicans- some are even of the log cabin variety. Now they understand what Isreal faces every day and they know, better then me, I would think, just how much hatred is there. But the Liberals act as if the whole thing is an easily resolved misunderstanding- and they go about apologizing for Isrealites all the time to Muslims. I have heard some say things like "well, they need to wake up and get realistic" and such. Hell, they even refer to them (the IDF) as being oppresive and in some ways deserving of what "they get".

So, how can they do this? Why, in such a small group of people (realtively thinking) is there a portion which is, I guess to my way of thinking, suicidal?

What I should have added is that the Jewish-American community also hasn't done anything on its own to demosntrate its total commitment to Jewish security here, there and anywhere else. The total silence from both civic and religious leaders is amazing, and it simply leaves me with no respect for the community or for Israel. They're allowing themselves to be bled to death and deluding themselves about the goal of their enemies. History really is repeating itself.

re: 69 Ariel
No, I have not forgotten that there is also, whether she believes in the cause or not, a grieving parent on the other side of the Green Line tonight. I just did not think that this was the time nor place to bring it up. Apparently, you think otherwise. Shame on you.

Soon after Sharon took office, he made a public statement that Israel will not be treated like Czechoslovakia.

The Bush administration clobbered him so hard for saying that, that Sharon has been their obedient pussy-cat ever since.

What did they threaten him with, that outweighs the rights and lives of his own country?

???

Grognard (#106)

No, I have not forgotten that there is also, whether she believes in the cause or not, a grieving parent on the other side of the Green Line tonight.

How dare you! A grieving parent? The murderer's parents are probably being swarmed by well-wishers as we speak. Shows you how much you know. And it does matter whether the bastard's parents believe in "the cause" or not. They are the ones who teach their children to hate Jews and to become mass-murderers. You don't get it, do you?

I just did not think that this was the time nor place to bring it up.

You're right, it's not.

Apparently, you think otherwise. Shame on you.

Shame on you! This is why I didn't accept your "for the time being, please allow me to grieve with you", because I realized it would be short-lived and shallow. Thank you for the sentiments, but I will turn to real friends of Israel and the Jews for comfort.

#92 E.Nough

Most nations just happen to have the luxury of staying in one place, and having a fixed set of other nations who hate them.

Nice point.

Fuck it, I'm furious! Grognard actually expects Ariel (or any of us J-E-W-S) to show compassion for the parents of this homicide bomber, right after their barbaric child has just destroyed countless worlds! Please, spare me this crap.

Caton #57

I was not aware of that aspect of the Egyptian Isreali negotiations. So much for Arab solidarity.

But it really does say something when a nation would reject a bit of real esate that is both stragically situated and increases their mediteranen water frontage (and mediteranean water frontage is usually a good thing) because the people there are so troublesome.

It highlights a problem though - there too many optimists who are prepared to believe that the Palestinians are a basically decent people being put upon and led astray by incompetent leadership.
They are in fact a people in the grip of a debilitating mass delusion. The task ahead is not to find some better role models - it more akin to what is needed when a family retreives a family member from a cult - the Palestinian people - as a people - need re-programing. Whilst chairman Mao gave the term "re-eductaion camp" a very sinister air, one wonders wether something like this might not be required with the Palestinians. At the very least any roadmap I was asked to come up with would put the matter of schools curricula in Palestine high on the agenda.

But I am grasping at straws here, there are very few examples of the successful outside treatment of severe cultural pathologies - postwar Japan and Germany are the only succesfull cases I can think of - and in neither case was the patient quite as Delusional as the Palestinians.

I'm sure #106 is referring to a parent grieving that Saddam Hussein isn't around to send her $25,000.

Johan Wehtje (#50): They've done a lot of ground-level stuff, but have left the head -- the symbolic figure(s) -- out there conspicuously alive active and hopeful. You think we'd have much demoralized Islamism if we'd targeted a bunch of al-Qaeda grunts while leaving Osama sitting pretty in plain sight?

This is our shopping list:

1) Afghanistan's terrorists
2) Iraq's terrorists
3) North Korea's terrorists
4) Palestine's terrorists
5) IRA and Loyalist terrorists

someone (#112)

I'm sure #106 is referring to a parent grieving that Saddam Hussein isn't around to send her $25,000.

Great point :-)

Zulu & Someone:

I can't recall exactly where I saw this item but Saddam is said to have left some kind of endowment to continue paying the families of the shaheedin after the fall of the Ba'athist regime. Sorry I've forgotten the source of this one.

Moe Katz (#115)

I would reeeeally like to see that. If you happen across the source, please let me know.

#116 Zulubaby

Maybe someone else ran across that story and remembers the source.

Ben F (#75):

Maybe wavy davy will be able to read this one, too--that is, if his white hood doesn't slip out of place...

This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD , who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD . "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.'

The White House hasn't released a statement yet on the Mike's Place bombing, but I hope Bush DOES something different this time. Like sending in the Sweet Home Alabama National Guard. The Roadmap starts with the Palestinians. Until the terror threat ends, the U.S. will not support a Palestinian state.
Thanks #75 for the mandate links.

"Today terrorists struck again in Israel, murdering and injuring scores of civilians in Tel Aviv. I condemn this attack in the strongest possible terms. It is a despicable act of murder, and I express my condolences to the government and people of Israel and especially to the families of the victims... The United States remains determined to continue our efforts toward peace in the Middle East, a goal that the terrorists seek to destroy. All who genuinely seek peace in the region must join in the effort to stop terror. The United States is determined to continue the global fight against terrorism and against the terrorist organizations that conduct operations such as the murders in Israel today."
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

"I condemn, in the strongest possible terms, the terrorist attacks today at the Likud Party polling place in northern Israel and the Paradise Hotel in Mombasa Kenya, as well as the attempted attack on a civilian airliner shortly after it took off from Mombasa's international airport. I want to extend my condolences to the victims and their families, and to the governments and peoples of Israel and Kenya. Today's attacks underscore the continuing willingness of those opposed to peace to commit horrible crimes. Those who seek peace must do everything in their power to dismantle the infrastructure of terror that makes such actions possible. The United States remains firmly committed, with its partners around the world, to the fight against terror and those who commit these heinous acts."
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

"THE PRESIDENT: First, I want to condemn in the strongest possible terms the attack that took place in Israel. There are clearly killers who hate the thought of peace, and, therefore, are willing to take their hatred to all kinds of places, including a university. And this country condemns that kind of killing, and we send our deepest sympathy to the students and their families."
[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

#73

I agree with basically everything that you said, but (and I realize I'm repeeating myself, but I believe that it's an important point) the Palestinian fight is not like the others that we curerntly face in the sense that the general populace is as much the enemy as the leadership.

The prototypical Islamic or Islamofascist state currently consists of a thug or Mullah running the country with all the requisite repression and murder that maintaining agsolute power requires. Nearly universally, if you remove the regime top down, as you suggest we do here, the people are only to happy to welcome you in as a liberator. This is simply not the case with the Palestinians. In this case the fight is just as much with the Palestinian people as with their leaders.

While Arafat is very repressive, he's done so good a PR job that the people are convinced that all their troubles originate from Israel or the US. Even if we take him and his cronies out, the fight is not nearly over. This fight has to be won on a grass roots level as well as on a regime level. It's sad, as reality often is, but it is true.

As just one example of what I mean, when Saddam tried to attack our troops with suicide bombers, most just gave themselves up. There was no way they were going to die for the man they acknowledged as the source of their difficulties. Hamas, al aqsa etc. have a plentiful supply of suicide bombers who proudly blow themselves to pieces while their families hold parties to celebrate the "valiant" deaths of their children and their neighbors rename the local streets in their honor. This is a different enemy requiring different tactics and strategy.

re: 71&108 Zulubaby
You call me shallow? You? The mistress of trite? I realize that, given your ulterior motives, you could say nothing else, but you could at least have waited until a more appropriate time. Under these circumstances your crocodile histrionics are beneath contempt. Just run away (again) and stop trying to foist your inner demons on me.

What really tipped me over the edge this morning was seeing an interview with a Hamas spokesman (I believe it was "Dr." Rantisi) who just looked straight into the camera and said "We have a right to defend ourselves."

Defend

"A caller told AFP that the attack had been jointly planned by the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the Al Qassam Brigades.
The man calling himself Abu Barek said: "This attack was carried out by a martyr from Tulkarem (in the north of the West Bank) to avenge Mazen Erapeh, an Al Aqsa member recently killed in Nablus (by the Israeli army), and was jointly planned by the Al Aqsa and Al Qassam Brigades."
[Link: www.afp.com...]

"Few hours after Israeli occupation helicopter gunships assassinated three Palestinians and wounded scores others, a Palestinian resistance fighter blew himself up at cafe near the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv killing three Israeli and wounding 55 others.
On Tuesday, two Israeli attack helicopters fired rockets at a car near the southern Gaza Strip town of Khan Yunis, killing Nidal Salamah, 33, a leader of the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades, the armed wing of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP).
Later on the same day, two members of Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were assassinated by Israeli tank fire in Bethlehem. They were identified as Mahmud Salah, 28, the group's leader in Bethlehem and Anan Jawarish, 26, was one of his associates."
[Link: www.islamonline.net...]

Looks like the Israelis "assassinated" the right people. I hope they were leaders, but really WTF - they're dead terrorists.

Grognard (#121)

Please, I'm not interested. I saw through you a while ago already. Run away (again) from where exactly? Do I hear echos of Ranbutan perhaps? Hmmm? You know something about my life that I don't?

And don't talk to me about "appropriate times". You were the one that had the nerve to berate Ariel because he apparently has "no compassion" for a mass-murderer's parents, while the body parts of Jews are being scraped off (yet another) sidewalk in Israel. You don't know what you're talking about.

Take a look at yourself and your own prejudices, or at least own up to them. I don't have ulterior motives. Can the same be said of you? Under what circumstances Grognard? You can't seem to make up your mind. Contempt away. Be assured the feeling is mutual.

zulubaby (#124): Projection.

someone (#125)

You may very well be correct.

#120 daniel

in the sense that the general populace is as much the enemy as the leadership.

I disagree that the general population is equivalent to the leadership. And anyway, I'm only saying that you begin with the leadership and then continue in rank(as far as this is possible) from top to bottom and eliminate as many as required to utterly break their spirit and will.

Remember sherman 101, the only way to win a war is to demoralize and break the enemies will to make or continue the war.

The rank and file palestinians are very stupid. They lap up their brainwashing with their daily gruel. With no leadership, at some point they will become manageable.

No parent, historically anyway, and left to their own devices, offers up their children as human sacrifice fodder the way the palestinians are doing. This is a historical phenomenon, as far as it being a systematic, planned tactic.

When these people get a glimmer of reality, they must intensely regret what they are doing to themselves. And this could be exploited by making their life even worse up to the breaking point.

And don't forget what cowards their leaders are. I remember the day after 911, arafat was practically wetting himself with disavowals and blood donations.

These people are scum. And in general you have to begin by saying no to absolutly everything they propose and then attack them. For as long as it takes.

But then unfortunately, you will have to take care of them too.

And the best way to do this would be a state with absolute property rights and totally free markets. They would have ample means to support themselves, and would probably sink to the bottom where they belong.

But atleast their bullshit would only buy them what their money gets.

do you think the fact that Drudge has not linked a headline to this latest Israel bombing sends a message..?

until Israel understands that one more death is unacceptable..this will drag on for another half century...

#111 Johan Wehtje

But it really does say something when a nation would reject a bit of real esate that is both stragically situated and increases their mediteranen water frontage (and mediteranean water frontage is usually a good thing) because the people there are so troublesome.

Jordan didn't want the West Bank back, either. For the same reasons.

Anti-semitism is just a form of resentment. People hate Jews merely because they're (generally) wealthier. They tend to be go-getters and to have higher educational qualifications, and they tend to be more successful than other religous-ethnic groups.They are also the authors of some of the world's best humour! People hate other people who are successful.

Rather than resent their success in an obsessive racist manner, make it a point to observe how Jews think and act (without being patronising, of course). It'll do ya good! You'll pick up some pointers and, if you're a decent chap, you might even make some friends....I did! :o)

Grognard #106,

No, I have not forgotten that there is also, whether she believes in the cause or not, a grieving parent on the other side of the Green Line tonight.

Yeah, that and the fact that you compare Israeli treatment of 'palestinians' to Nazi treatment of Jews, repeatedly, contra-factually, and even after its falsity has been pointed out to you, is what made me care not a whit for your 'grieving'; you made it even worse by suggesting that this is all the more proof of a Road Map will help everything in #53:

To that end, I submit that, as hard as it may be to believe right here, right now, the deaths tonight might not be in vain, but rather might be the bed of hope upon which the seeds of peace have been cast.

The Road Map isn't paved with the skulls of dead Jews. And you saying that, while calling Jews Nazis in just about every other post, is exactly why I'd like to give you a hearty "Fuck You".

And I'd really like to see you put money down on your beliefs about these new terror-Nazis.

Grognard #106

Judaism: The religion which prohibits sending your son to die for God (Abraham and Isaac)

Christianity : The religion where God sent His Son to die for you (Jesus).

Islam: The religion where you send your son to die for God (Jihad)

Here is the Cornish Road map for statehood:

[Link: ourworld.compuserve.com...]

Now all we need is some terrorists and a holocaust denier and we will get an invitation to 10 Downing street!

re: 125 someone
If you mean that in the Freudian sense, you've got the correct diagnosis but the wrong patient. Zulubaby can't help but attribute deep moral cowardice to those who don't agree with her. When I and others insist that a just peace ending years of strife need not result in genocide, she desperately needs to believe not only that we're wrong, but also that we know we're wrong and that we're lying to her. That's very likely why she is moody and has such a short fuse - I would imagine that the conflict of simultaneously fearing and craving something (in her case, peace) would be intellectually frustrating and emotionally draining.

I, on the other hand, made the mistake of projecting in the general sense: I assumed that sympathy would not be unwelcome.

#107 said

Soon after Sharon took office, he made a public statement that Israel will not be treated like Czechoslovakia. The Bush administration clobbered him so hard for saying that, that Sharon has been their obedient pussy-cat ever since.

Sharon made an excellent speech, short and to-the-point (it was subsequently plagiarized and frequently used by Bush and his people). Now, to refresh your memory, several months later, after particularly heinous act of Palestinian terrorism, Sharon authorized a massive military operation, known as Defensive Shield, which was fairly successful, IMO. And it was a courageous decision on his part -- while there was a lot of hysterics when he made the Checkhoslovakia speech, the noise became positively deafening during that military campaign. Obviously, Sharon was under huge pressure to fold, but he did not. I respect him immensely. And I think that if this current bullshit continues, he will do what is necessary to do in order to stop it. I suggest that you read 'Six Days of War' in order to understand what Israel has to go through to undertake any defensive action.

#105:

American Jewish community is doing A LOT to show its commitment to Jewish security and Jewish values everywhere, including Israel. However, contrary to certain conspiracy theorists, it is not all-powerful. Yes, there are some dictator-admiring morons who happen to be Jewish, but anyway, what is it to you? During WWII, the New York Times, a Jewish-owned newspaper, aspired to be all-American so desperately, that it did not report much on Nazi atrocities towards the Jews in Europe. But although I do blame the newspaper and the owners, there is no question as to where the real blame lies. All those America Firsters, the mobs screeching 'No blood for Jews', the Nazi sympathizers (many of them quite respectable and occupying government positions), and the rest of the assorted anti-war movement of that time -- I despise them far more.
And Israel has always fought her own battles, there is no doubt about that.

And finally, Grognard (#121):
'Crocodile tears' means false sympathy. And, forgive me, your manifestations of sympathy seem false. Rather like certain European leaders give the standard verbal response, all the while enabling atrocities to happen. The word 'perfidy' also comes to mind.

Grognard #134,

I assumed that sympathy would not be unwelcome.

Yeah, some sympathy you have. Sympathy built on top of Jewish skulls. Now if only you could have 10-20 million bouts of sympathy - one for each Jew - I'm sure that would make you one happy little person.

Don't worry, us Zionazis will keep on keeping on without your 'sympathy'.

Grognard (#134)

You really are a miserable, two-faced, immoral coward, aren't you? Thanks for the pop-psychology analysis! Amusing. Again, I encourage you to take a look at your own prejudices. You're a fake and us rabid squirrels will be just fine without your false "sympathy". Spare me the dramatics. I saw through you long ago.

You have a habit of avoiding answering my questions, but I'm going to try one more time, Dr. Freud.

In post #121 you said:

Just run away (again) and stop trying to foist your inner demons on me.

In post #124 I responded:

Run away (again) from where exactly?

Care to answer a direct question or is that too overwhelming for you to cope with? Do you get a cheap thrill making shit up about me? You appear to be an authority on my life. Much the same way as you like to think of yourself as some kind of authority on Israel, and what the Jews need to do in order for there to be peace in the Middle East. You know very little about either. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to respond though, nearly suffocated on this thread waiting for your response. (I'm the least of your worries there, by the way. LOL).

re: 137 zulubaby

You really are a miserable, two-faced, immoral coward, aren't you?

I'm sure someone understood what I meant, but thanks for the demonstration anyway.

Again, I encourage you to take a look at your own prejudices.

Ah, but that's just it, you don't like me because I'm not prejudiced. I do not blindly follow either side in the Israel/Palestine conundrum. I walked in with no axe to grind and with emotional and intellectual ties to both sides. I let the factual chips fall where they may. If you'll bother to check, I've consistently argued against both extremes; of course, my definition of "extreme" is different than yours. I only seem anti-Zionist to you because I'm not as rabidly pro-Zionist as you are.

I saw through you long ago. You have a habit of avoiding answering my questions, but I'm going to try one more time...

Heh, heh, no, not really. You were wrong then, and still have no clue. You could no more understand me than the isoceles could understand the sphere. (read Abbott?) I found your comment "I also made the mistake of thinking that you were smarter than that" interesting. Now it makes sense that you changed your mind about me. When at first you thought I was the blogger equivalent of a script-kiddie you could easily discard my opinions when they varied from yours. As you gradually discovered that I did, in fact, have some knowledge in hand, had applied some thought, and had come to reasoned conclusions that differed from yours, you had to strike out at me. In fact, it was that very post, where I said that what I had learned at LGF had reduced my opinion of Israel, that really set you off. Here, I'll try to make you feel better: If the opinions that matter in Israel are accurately reflected here in LGF, I would estimate that there will be peace in the MoP within 10 years - when one side or the other gets fed up and competes their ethnic clensing. Foreseeing that situation, if someone wanted stay and fight but instead decided to leave to keep their family safe, that wouldn't be a bad thing - whether, in the end, the clensing actually happened or not.

Run away (again) from where exactly?

You ran away from your terre natale - Natal perhaps? I am beginning to think, though, that it was not by your choice; your patterns indicate defense of something imparted to you rather than a decision of your own. Please stop thinking that you left SA for nothing because it hasn't blown up into a race war yet. However pulled you out of there had your best interests in mind, and your departure was legitimate even if that war never happens because the threat was significant. A successful transition to peace in the MoP will make not retroactively decrease that threat; whoever it was still did the right thing.

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to respond though, nearly suffocated on this thread waiting for your response.

Sorry, I had moved on. I should have been more sensitive to your focus on the past. I went back and responded to your post.

I'm the least of your worries there, by the way. LOL

You're no worry at all. Ariel's rebuttals have devolved to simple negation and blatant avoidance (though he is capable of much better), and I've just been scrolling past Nargazian (if he had anything constructive to say he wouldn't be using bold italics).

You'll be happy, no doubt, to know that I probably won't be back to LGF very often from now on. In the future, I'll check in once in a while to see if the light's dawned on anyone besides Daniel and Occasional Reader, who already have a grip, but in the main I'll go to over to Head Heeb to talk to people who want peace and are willing to talk constructively about solutions.

Charles, Thank you, sir for the bandwidth and the forum. It's well designed and easy to use. The only (technical) glitch I've seen is a frequent loss of arrow key functionality within the comments box. (My fix is to call up a search box and use the arrow keys there - they're fine when I cancel back to the comments box.) Glad I could help with the security; sorry none of my tips helped.

Tschuess!

Grognard (#138)

Aah, so you finally decided to answer my question:

You ran away from your terre natale - Natal perhaps?

I know you fancy yourself as the next Dr. Freud, but you really know absolutely nothing about me or my life so stop making such a tool of yourself. You've put words in my mouth and made assumptions about me and that somehow makes you feel better. Ranbutan tried to pull that crap with me too, way back when. But of course you knew that, didn't you, idolizing him the way you do? If you're going to be an asshole, at least try to be original.

I am beginning to think, though, that it was not by your choice; your patterns indicate defense of something imparted to you rather than a decision of your own.

Dr. Freud is at it again. It frightens me that you have a child (children?) I think you mentioned something about it in one of your posts? My family still lives in South Africa and I left for reasons all my own. But nice try.

As you gradually discovered that I did, in fact, have some knowledge in hand, had applied some thought, and had come to reasoned conclusions that differed from yours, you had to strike out at me.

LOL! Sure. Whatever you say. Funnier still is that someone posted one word about you: projection, and that has bothered you more than anything else. Struck a nerve, did he? So far you've brought it up in every one of your responses to me. See, I can play at being Dr. Freud too? I'm learning something from you!

No surprise to me that you're avoiding Ariel (and Mike for that matter). They are, after all, men and a lot smarter than you, so it's easier for you to make up lies about me and argue like a girl. At least I have the excuse of actually being a girl.

You'll be happy, no doubt, to know that I probably won't be back to LGF very often from now on.

Actually, I could care less what you do. I want peace desperately, just not at the expense of Jewish lives. You play the moral equivalency game and that is what I find repugnant. Let's not forget that you admonished Ariel for not being sympathetic towards the homicide bomber's parents, immediately after said homicide bomber had vaporized Jews in the most cowardly, cold-blooded, vicious way. "Shame on you" is what you wrote, to Ariel. That, more than anything else, was the moment I lost whatever little respect I may have had for you. I did in fact see through you long ago, I can smell Jew-haters from miles away. You talk about not admiring the Israelis anymore. Here's a news flash for you: The Israelis don't admire people like you either. Jus' so ya know. Please, don't let the doorhandle bang you on the butt on your way out.

Lots of love,

zulubaby, Rabid Pro-Zionist

P.S. My opinion of you still stands:

miserable, two-faced, immoral coward