Is there any particular reason that when I click Current Weblog above I get [Link: www.idf.il...] ? Anyone else getting this?

Charles, you write that this dreadful piece of excrement is Bill Moyer's "pet project." What does this mean? Does he fund it?

#2 james

It just happened to me, too.

James, I'm getting that too.

I seem to remember the evil racist **** Brian from the National Geographic anti-Israel hate-fest.

Are you guys by any chance using Netscape version 4.x? (Which has a bug causing it to send incorrect referrer information...)

I've removed the referrer check that was probably causing this. Is it OK now?

Canadian Lady: yes, Bill Moyers is one of the financiers of Indymedia.

#7 Charles

Yep, back to normal. And, no, I am using IE 6.0.

Wow, I didn't know Moyers had a hand in Indymedia. I know he's a proud Marxist (although in his mind it's perfectly okay for him to get rich through PBS) but I never understood just how far out there he really is.

I do now.

I challenge everyone to send dollars to Charles.

I hope Google News isn't still citing the twisted Indymedia dungheap as a legitimate news source.

Indymedia. What unutterable garbage. I had no idea about the Moyers link.

For fun mainly, I keep posting this essay at San Francisco Indymedia, the most purulent head of the Indymedia hydra, and every time I do it gets deleted or "hidden" by the censors. This, on the site where "You Are Your Own Journalist".

The reason for the repeated censorship. The essay is anti-Semitic!

It's all very simple. A quick perusal of Marxist / socialist history reveals roiling antisemitism in Marx, a self-hating Jew, and then specifically anti-Zionist fervor among second-generation, seminal Marxists ranging from Otto Bauer to Karl Kautsky.

Their opposition to a Jewish homeland in Palestine had nothing whatsoever to do with "racism" or whatever lefty soundbyte you hear bandied about today. It was borne out of a callous attempt to harness certain national movements and suppress others to achieve Marxist geopolitical goals, most notably the toppling of the Russian monarchy. It was also, paradoxically, the socialist prescription for combating European antisemitism; theirs was simply the opposite of that of the Zionists.

Nascent Zionism was seen as reactionary because it would worsen Jewish otherness by impeding their assimilation, distract Jews from the more worthy goal of revolution, and promote capitalism. The latter assumption came from Marx's view that Jews were a crude race synonymous with the evils of profiteering. He admitted to a degree that Jews were victims in Europe, but felt that the emancipation of Jews from antisemitism was dependent on "the emancipation of society from Judaism" (see his essay, "On the Jewish Question").

In other words, remove capitalism from society, and its quintessence, the Jews in their unassimilated Jewish form, and you promote a brotherhood that encompasses everyone, including Jews. If you bear in mind the internationalism of Marxism, you see how this goes beyond Western Europe into Israel/Palestine.

The events leading up to World War I made it clear that Marx was woefully wrong about his esteem for internationalism over the seductive pull of nationalist fervor. Marxists had to relax their doctrine with respect to nationalism to address violently changing realities. Most, of course, came to embrace nationalism, the most tragic and extreme example being Hitler's fusion of socialism -- yes, socialism -- with rabid ethnic nationalism.

The uniquely landless status of European Jewry ran against Marx's territorial principle, in which one people necessarily inhabited one land. (Ironically, given the obsessions of our modern-day anarcho-socialists, Marx was decidedly insensitive in this way to the exigencies facing minorities.) Marxists didn't know how to process such a problematic diaspora people. I imagine their unique, antagonistic space within Marx's capitalist critique didn't help matters. Therefore, socialist opposition to Jewish national aspirations in Palestine continued unabated.

It came to pass that Marxists opposed national self-determination for one group only: the Jews. This continued throughout history until the present day, as Marxists and anarchists blended into Leninists, Stalinists, socialists of all stripes (agnostic, third-world, even Social Democrat), the academic lefties and radicals of the 60s, and finally into the diverse and inarticulate hipster rabble you see now on Indymedia sites carrying pro-Saddam posters.

So, when you see the brainwashed kids scurrying around the Mall or the tofu killing fields of San Francisco, with their Star of David / Swastika placards, clamoring for the deliverance of genocidal dictators, remember what actually underlies the choices they make.

The Tofu Killing Fields: Marx and Anti-Semitism

Queen Esther: they are. And Yahoo News too.

How short a time it was, Charles, when Indymedia used to be on your bookmark links. ;)

It's absurd how Indyminions keep telling me "Ooh, the news isn't posted by the authors, it's a right-wing conspiracy to make us look bad." Hell, I SAW only one moderator do anything to disavow one particularly blood-soaked orgy: the other mods (on SF INDY) were rating the post with 8's and 9's.

The fact is, the fools who run the site are only "high-class" compared to the filth that flock to it and worship it.

John-Paul,

You are an excellent writer! And it is so true.

After reading the garbage which stands as literature on indy-media I can only think they are scared to print an actual well crafted piece.

I don't get mad about the looney lefties anymore when they say this kind of crap. I realized something, we just don't live in the same world. In their world everything is sad and dreary and full of conspiracies. There's no hope, the sky is falling, etc. etc. In my world things aren't that bad at all. in fact they're pretty damn good. Maybe I don't always get my own way all the time, but damn, at least I have a grip on reality and I'm not mentally ill like they are. I'll always have that over them.

they
are
scum.

I clicked on that link and could not believe my eyes.
O'Reiley has been putting the word out on Moyers for a while. What is it going to take to expose him for what he is and for his federal funding to be cut permanently???

Some of the comments posted are actually challenging the thrust of the article. Interesting reading.

Is there an Indymedia TV show? I live in Seattle and in the TV guide there was an "Indymedia" in an 11:30 PM time-slot on the public access channel.

Charles, you sure about that? I just did a search of Google news, and the last story they cite from Indymedia with the "word" "zionazi" appeared on April 9. A search of Yahoo news turns up nothing for that term. Is it possible these search engines have recently come to their senses?

In their world everything is sad and dreary and full of conspiracies. There's no hope, the sky is falling, etc. etc. In my world things aren't that bad at all. in fact they're pretty damn good.

Hehe, I always remember God is in control. That always keeps my optimism near peak. Life is stressful when you think the future of the human race depends upon your ability to spread any of the numerous "-isms". Learn to worry about the people, not The People.

The Left is now openly antisemitic--there are no taboos remaining. I haven't been this badly shocked in a while.

AT some point and at some level, even linking these marsh dwelling crustaceans is counter-productive. I must confess though, as a former comedy writer, I find their jokes amusing. Except of course their jokes are actually the basis of their arguments.

This suggests something I've been thinking about for some time. In science, those who advocate what is known as creation science--that the world is created directly along the lines of Genesis and is under 7,000 years old-- are not taken seriously, to say the least. Most scientists will not even remotely consider a substantial debate with these hosers. They are flat earthers in a time of 3-dimensional photos.

These Indymedia bacilli, and increasingly, much of the hard left, are the same. They deserve largely to be ignored, their arguments dismissed as the verbal farts of the intellectually homeless. Pitied, almost, save for the venom.

Let's ignore these shitbirds--and give them precious little sunlight. Focus on where the next blow may come from--or is going to, in America's case.

Charles: don't link to those pricks. They have the right to their speech, but don't dignify it.

IndyMedia is just one of a mind-numbing number of idiotarian outlets for the seemingly bottomless pit of looney-left paranoia out there in the fantasy world of the chicken little covens of the conspiracy freaks.

Just a couple of days ago I was reading a letter to the editor titled Letter to Mayor Toor in the local alternative freakazoid weekly newspaper Boulder Weekly, a mainstay of the reservoir of "politically correct" thought hereabouts.

You see, this mini-idiotarian was insisting that nuclear energy in America has been assassinated by the oil companies, and as a result we are destroying our environment by the massive excess of ozone-depleting so-called greenhouse gasses that have been produced as a result of the greed of a sector of corporate life.

In fact, he claims that the mayor and others (and this honestly wouldn't surprise me if it was true that this was said) told him that Boulder generates 2 million tons of ozone-depleting greenhouse gasses annually. That is 4 billion pounds of nasty gas, people, for a city of 100,000 people every single year!

I'm the kind of person who tends to look skeptically at "large number" arguments that are presented by those who are supposedly in the know, so I did the math. Two billion pounds of ozone gas a year would be more than 109 pounds of bad gas daily for each person in this town.

Yeah, right. And in my opinion, IndyMedia must be about a thousand times more absurd than that ridiculously stupid argument. Let's face it people, we have seen the enemy, and they are (partly) us, or at least those who we claim to be our own fellow citizens.

Somebody has to stop these people, and it won't be the people next door.

Question: How does this stuff get on the Indymedia site? Is there any editorial control? Does the buck stop somewhere?

I don't like a bit of what they say at IndyMedia. The shining salvation of it all is that it's so whacked that you can use it against the lefties. I hope they keep ranting into political oblivion.

Emmet (#10),

Yup.

“This week, the big construction company Bechtel received a contract that could pay three quarters of a billion dollars for work in post-war Iraq...One of Bechtel’s senior vice presidents is a former general who serves on the Defense Policy Board, along with other hawks like Richard Perle and James Woolsey, who wanted war with Iraq and got it. They advise the Pentagon and then turn around and make money out of their defense contacts. “These fellows are all honorable men, I’m sure. But they call for war with all the ferocity of non-combatants and then turn around and feed on the corpse of war. Illegal? Not in our system. Unsavory? No matter how you slice it. But the main point is this: America’s corporate and political elites now form a regime of their own and they’re privatizing democracy. All the benefits — the tax cuts, policies and rewards flow in one direction: up.”
— Bill Moyers on his PBS newsmagazine Now, April 18.

Of course Bill has no qualms about using the war to promote his own money making self-interest.

Is there a site we can access that lists the funders?

I didn't know about the Moyers connection either. Thanks for the info. !

I stopped watching anything that I knew he had a hand in a while ago. He pretends to be unbiased. If he's unbiased, I'm the Pope!!

I'd like to know who else is helping to fund them.

I accessed the site in the link and hunted around but couldn't see any mention of who funds them.

They have such hateful material posted on their sites, I'm surprised anyone in the public eye would want to be known as a funder.

to #73 John-Paul Pagano:

you said:

" For fun mainly, I keep posting this essay at San Francisco Indymedia, the most purulent head of the Indymedia hydra, and every time I do it gets deleted or "hidden" by the censors. This, on the site where "You Are Your Own Journalist". "
---

You should feel honored to be placed in the 'hidden' list. So far, all my posts on that site have just been deleted. To be fair, I've only posted about 6 times, but every post was deleted.

I think it was because I was refuting whatever their rant was by listing facts, with URLs for additional reading. I kept my posts short and to the point. Was not rude. Didn't defame anyone or resort to name-calling. Just tried to offer a different set of facts from the ones sited in the 'article' being commented on.

I have friends in the newspaper business who
claim many editors use Indymedia like a
bible. From the crap dished out in main stream
media... sickening as it is, this should come as no surprise.

Under the disquise of free speech and
political enlightenment, Indymedia serves as a front for
all the haters of the world.
Using buzz words such as ZIONAZIS is completely revolting and sadly, very 'in' right now.

If we look back through the historical markers of anti-Semitism, Indymedia without a doubt has become a modern day marker for what is in store for Jews.
A chilling thought before bed-

One of those really brilliant people over at indymedia commented on this article with thsi brilliant peice of logic:

Since the intifada started till mid April 2003:
724 Israelis were killed (This includes innocent children).
2382 Palestinians were killed (This includes innocent children).
Who has SLAUGHTERED THE MOST INNOCENT PEOPLE??

I tried to make it real simple:
In 2003 there were
ca. 60 million cars in France.(This inludes Peugots).
ca. 240 million cars in the US. (This includes Peugots).
Which country has more Peugots??.

The system would never let the comment through. But these peoples Brains are obviously not wired for thinking, an activity they should probably give up.

BTW isn't it fun to know that in the cyberverse we have Godwin's Law? The "Article" loses its arguement from the headline!

(33) Sean the Neo-Jew

The "Article" loses its arguement from the headline!

To you...to me, but to those who look to indymedia
for analysis of the news with similar views, it only serves to foment hysteria.
Anyway, we are not the dangerous ones. (yet)

You know what? Indymedia is supposed to be open publishing.I'm going to start pu8blishing articles there. I think a lot of other people who think somewhat like we do should do thsi as well. They CLAIM balance...let's give 'em some. Here's my first: Heston Steps Down

You know what? Indymedia is supposed to be open publishing. I’m going to start publishing articles there.

I'd just stay away from people like that. Imagine the ops over there posting your IP address, your general location, etc. Better to let the masses congregate and let the NSA slowly add their sick names into the "questionable" database. Although if there is anything legitimate we can do to shut it down, let me know.

i think indymedia should be looked at like a cancerous tumor - because that's what it is. if you read their faq's, you'll note how vague they are about who they are: "the Indymedia has no central office, and therefore we have no address, phone number or fax. yeah, sure. why the .org? are they trying to pretend they are a 501c3 non-profit?

??? Really ??? Do you mean the old Bill Moyers news guy? Really ??? He is that gross and sick minded ??

indymedia.org is registered with dotster.com (some off-brand registrar). Here's what dotster's "whois" says;

Registrant:
IMC
1415 3rd Ave
Seattle, WA 98101
US

Registrar: DOTSTER
Domain Name: INDYMEDIA.ORG
Created on: 02-JUL-02
Expires on: 27-OCT-05
Last Updated on: 02-JUL-02

Administrative Contact:
Media Center, Independent general@indymedia.org
IMC
1415 3rd Ave
Seattle, WA 98101
US
2062620721

Technical Contact:
Tech, IMC imc-tech@indymedia.org
IMC
1415 3rd Ave
Seattle, WA 98101
US
2062620721

Domain servers in listed order:
FS.FREESPEECH.ORG
BLACK.CAT.ORG.AU
NS1.RISEUP.NET

Take a look at the people that host indymedia's domain servers;

www.riseup.net/
cat.org.au/
[Link: www.freespeech.org...]

The last is, by far, the most entertaining bunch of loonies I've seen in weeks.

GTC

Mar (#16),

Thanks! I do believe it is true, and I wish that people in general were more attuned to the socialist contribution to the woes of Jews in the last century.

It's too bad that Jews themselves -- although often secular, self-abnegating ones, at least in the early history of the ideology -- have pioneered and participated in so much of the various socialist movements.

IndyMedia, regardless of their gyrations and subterfuge, is ultimately a subdomain of Speakeasy Networks, out of Seattle.

In fact, that is my own ISP! I'll bet that a sincere campaign of complaint might have the effect of making Speakeasy reconsider their hosting responsibilities regarding these fascist left-looney scum.

You might try emailing their management or admin. Their addresses are easy to find with only a cursory search.

---
PCHelp's --*# Network Tracer #*-- Copyright 1999 pchelp
Free for non-commercial use. Free for any use. [Link: www.pc-help.org...]

Tracing: indymedia.org 216.231.32.98
Date: 04-30-2003
Start Time: 10:16:30.12p

-- PING RESPONSE --

Pinging 216.231.32.98 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 216.231.32.98: bytes=32 time=37ms TTL=239

Ping statistics for 216.231.32.98:
Packets: Sent = 1, Received = 1, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 37ms, Maximum = 37ms, Average = 37ms

-- NetBIOS QUERY RESULTS --

Host not found.

-- NSLOOKUP QUERY RESULTS --

*** First PTR Name Server Lookup unsuccessful.
*** Second PTR Name Server Lookup unsuccessful.
*** All Three Name Server Lookup attempts were unsuccessful.

-- DOMAIN NAME RECORD QUERY RESULTS --

NOTE: whois.abuse.net lists a Net-abuse report address for indymedia.org:

abuse@indymedia.org (for indymedia.org)

whois -h whois.networksolutions.com "DO F indymedia.org"
No record found in Network Solutions database.
whois -h whois.crsnic.net indymedia.org

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to [Link: www.internic.net...]
for detailed information.

No match for "INDYMEDIA.ORG".

>>> Last update of whois database: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:52:15 EDT

Oops. Somehow my post broke. Continued here...

---
NOTICE: The expiration date displayed in this record is the date the
registrar's sponsorship of the domain name registration in the registry is
currently set to expire. This date does not necessarily reflect the expiration
date of the domain name registrant's agreement with the sponsoring
registrar. Users may consult the sponsoring registrar's Whois database to
view the registrar's reported date of expiration for this registration.

TERMS OF USE: You are not authorized to access or query our Whois
database through the use of electronic processes that are high-volume and
automated except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or
modify existing registrations; the Data in VeriSign Global Registry
Services' ("VeriSign") Whois database is provided by VeriSign for
information purposes only, and to assist persons in obtaining information
about or related to a domain name registration record. VeriSign does not
guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a Whois query, you agree to abide
by the following terms of use: You agree that you may use this Data only
for lawful purposes and that under no circumstances will you use this Data
to: (1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail, telephone,
or facsimile; or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to VeriSign (or its computer systems). The compilation,
repackaging, dissemination or other use of this Data is expressly
prohibited without the prior written consent of VeriSign. You agree not to
use electronic processes that are automated and high-volume to access or
query the Whois database except as reasonably necessary to register
domain names or modify existing registrations. VeriSign reserves the right
to restrict your access to the Whois database in its sole discretion to ensure
operational stability. VeriSign may restrict or terminate your access to the
Whois database for failure to abide by these terms of use. VeriSign
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .EDU domains and
Registrars.

No record found for domain indymedia.org. Forged?

-- ARIN WHOIS QUERY RESULTS --

No match found for F 216.231.32.98.

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-04-30 20:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

-- TRACEROUTE RESULTS --

Tracing route to stallman.indymedia.org [216.231.32.98]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

(Note: First two hops deleted to protect my own privacy)
3 11 ms 11 ms 12 ms core3.ge2-0-bbnet1.den.pnap.net [216.52.40.3]
4 12 ms 12 ms 13 ms s6-1.dnvtco1-cr6.bbnplanet.net [4.25.26.5]
5 13 ms 14 ms 12 ms p2-2.dnvtco1-br2.bbnplanet.net [4.24.11.49]
6 12 ms 13 ms 13 ms p15-0.dnvtco1-br1.bbnplanet.net [4.24.11.37]
7 37 ms 37 ms 38 ms p4-0.sttlwa2-br2.bbnplanet.net [4.24.11.233]
8 38 ms 38 ms 38 ms so-0-0-0.sttlwa1-hcr2.bbnplanet.net [4.24.11.214]
9 38 ms 38 ms 40 ms so-7-0-0.sttlwa1-hcr1.bbnplanet.net [4.24.10.233]
10 38 ms 38 ms 39 ms p1-0.sttlwa1-cr1.bbnplanet.net [4.24.10.237]
11 38 ms 40 ms 39 ms p0-0.internap26.bbnplanet.net [4.25.88.18]
12 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms border25s.ge4-1-bbnet2.sea.pnap.net [206.253.192.226]
13 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms ge0-0-0.brd-1-sea.speakeasy.net [206.191.168.200]
14 39 ms 39 ms 38 ms so1-1-0.core-1-noc.speakeasy.net [64.81.178.134]
15 38 ms 39 ms 40 ms stallman.indymedia.org [216.231.32.98]

Trace complete.

Trace Started: 10:16:30.12p
Trace Finished: 10:22:31.14p

John Wehtje,

Your comment's up now. Don't think it'll help them grow brains though. I added a couple myself in the probably vain hope of creating some kind of germination in their skulls.

I feel ill. I might rant occasionally and sometimes become angry...but this is whacked

#11 AG in Houston

Just ordered two tee shirts and sent an extra $10 today. I encourage everyone else who enjoys LGF to do the same.

IMC was launched during the Seattle WTO protests in 1999 by a group of independent journalists. It is a decentralized volunteer organization, a cluster of autonomous collectives of media producers, that operates solely on the consensus of each collective's participants. While the organization (which I believe is registered as a 501c3) does receive donations from private individuals, it does not cater to the agendas of any contributor, but rather the interests of its participants alone.

IMC's newswire is completely open--anyone can post to it and there is no editorial review process whatsoever. Under such circumstances, people of varying agendas are given the opportunity to broadcast their views to a vast audience of left-leaning activists. The fact that several people who take advantage of this service abuse it by posting discriminatory material should not reflect poorly on IMC itself. Thus is the burden of honoring free speech and the free press: Even the assholes are entitled to speak. No one says you have to like what they have to say. Frankly, most people on IMC don't. Most people who "get" IMC read the newswire skeptically (if at all) and do not pay attention to the antagonists who troll the site. The real benefit of IMC is seen in its protest coverage. See [Link: f15.nycimc.org...] for example.

As a person who relies heavily on IMC while engaged in demonstrations, I can honestly say that IMC is truly invaluable resource to the activist community. They provide up to the minute coverage via web and SMS, for example, and help mobilize legal aid to arrestees. They offer a point of contact for organizers to rally support for their causes. I'm lot going to let a few antisemites ruin it for me. Let it go.

It's not like some other media outlets (such as Fox and CNN) which spin every story and try to pass them off as "fair and balanced" when they're blatantly biased. At least when you see some bullshit on IMC, you know it's bullshit.

#46 mobius 1

You have to be kidding. You are certainly one of the robotic nutcases who actually believes this shit.

anyone can post to it and there is no editorial review process whatsoever.

That quote is utterly false. Person after person who posts on this blog says that they are immediately relegated to the shitbin when they post on IndyMedia. In addition, their own editorial states that posts will be removed for certain reasons, including for

being blatantly false

Wow, that really narrows it. Why not leave every post, and let everyone make up THEIR OWN FUCKING MINDS?

You are just another nutcase in the unsavory bag of idiots who somehow, no matter how strong the evidence, insist dogmatically that your view is right, and that you don't boycott other positions, unless they are clearly wrong. You don't see a problem with that.

I do.

#32 Johan Wehtje

Your comment is still there. I left home for a few hours and came back to see if mine were still there (it is - "Jews are racist only until there is some need to remind people that arabs are semitic too") and I saw yours too.

BTW - Photios

I know you've been back a while but I didn't know if you'd be off again soon. Let me say that it's quite nice to have you back here :-)

Disguise your IP Address.

to #36 WarmongeringInfidels

you said

" I'd just stay away from people like that. Imagine the ops over there posting your IP address, your general location, etc. Better to let the masses congregate and let the NSA slowly add their sick names into the "questionable" database. Although if there is anything legitimate we can do to shut it down, let me know. "

---

1. There are programs, some free, some not that you can use to conceal your IP address. What happens is the software chooses sites to route you through. Not impossible to trace, but may be good enough for your purposes.

I've been trying to educate myself since 9/11 and have been visiting radical Islamists' sites and sites like Indymedia. Became concerned about leaving a trail.
(These folks concern me in many ways.)

Purchased a product callled 'GhostSurf' by Tenbril. When I want to access a website I'm a tad concerned about, I activate this program and I'm routed through various servers (the number can be of your choosing) before I access the site I want.

May not be the best product, but price wasn't much ~$30.00. Works with Norton Firewall and Anti-Virus. You can use it for a whole lot more than disguising your IP address, but this is what I mainly use it for.

There are cheaper methods, but I went with this one.

Bottom Line: Disguise your IP address if you are concerned. A Google search on IP anonymizer should get you some additional info.

Be aware though, if you do anything malicious to a site and the site has enough resources and/or bucks you can and will be traced.

Just posting every so often would not be worth the resources to trace you, if you bounce between enough servers.

2. I agree, we should let the NSA, and/or other authorities, be aware of sites like this. However, I'd hate to see these sites, like Indymedia, go underground and/or be shutdown.

Why?

Because it's great to be able to point rational people to that site. They can see for themselves what the 'looney left' is all about.

We should expose them for what they are. Send the URL to your friends, family, and other message boards. They (looney left) condemn themselves by their own words.

The more people can see what these freaks are advocating, in *their own words*, the better. Spread the URL all over the 'Net. Reading the postings on the Indymedia site, especially the San Fran. one, will open people's eyes.

I recall when I first encountered that site. I was absolutley amazed. I didn't know the extent to which some people in the US had descended into lunacy. It was much more powerful for me to see it *myself* than for anyone else to try and describe it.

Let them rant and rave and post. Use it against them by getting people to read the garbage that is spewed there.

Don't give them any ammunition by disrupting their sites, in any way. They'll just use this as proof of their 'victim status'.

Use their sites to discredit/expose them to all.

mobius1 :
Anyone who can use the phrase
"autonomous collectives" and not notice that it is an Oxymoron is a moron.

It is like the ludicrous fiction that these demonstrations that I am sure you have attended -whether they be the anti-globalisation protests or the anti-war rallies - are the best of democracy in action, when they are little more than the old tried and true tactic of revolutionaries everywhere - mob mobilisation. Sure they organise the Demo's and provide up to the minute details, and assitance to "arrestee's" (the delightful term for people who want to indulge in a little violence or vandalism under cover of a political demo). But the fact is that the demo's are planned by small , secretive and decidedly undemocratic commitees of hardcore activists, who craft a fairly hardline message, print the signs and slogans, and everyone else pretty much falls into line. Everything is done to maintain a febrile and hyperactive atmosphere that ensures that peoples individuality is consumed in the collective message. Any dissent at a demo is shouted down - and usually the very aim of the demo itself and associated rallies is to beliberatley drown out any conflicting message - what with all the haranguing speeches, endlessly repeating the same few arguments - with no time for reflection and no room or even acknowledgement of dissenting viewpoints.
Do i believe in the freedom of assembly and the right to protest in Public -yes of course. But the street is generally where the frustrated enemies of Democracy and the open society take their message. The lies about these being the voices of the disenfranchised oppressed by big media are so ludicrous that it is hard to believe that people are prepared to repeat them with a striaght face.

If the Barking Moonbats of Indymedia aren't enough for ya, then check out the Screeching Morlocks at democraticunderground where the latest terrorist attack in Tel Aviv is completely ignored. Wrong people dying I guess. Oh, but the latest conspiracy theory about the "Bush junta" or the "neocons" is topic for the most ludicrous howling and wailing. Enough to make one yell at the monitor. OTOH their fearful whining about what the "Repukes" are going to do to them is actually rather amusing.

Losers.

Jesus said to help the poor, but he didn't say to destroy the economy to do it. ruining the economy deosn't help the poor.

Jesus said to help the poor, but he didn't say to let the government do it for you.

As much as I may disagree with 99.9999% of the articles on Indymedia [not the wire], I will have to admit that the national Indymedia does not censor articles. They do delete duplicates [mainly right leaning duplicates and not left leaning ones] but this also depends on who is monitoring the newswire.

I do know for a fact that Palestine IMC, San Francisco IMC, UK IMC and Chicago Indymedia does indeed remove information they find too right leaning.

I attempted to post a Carlos Latuff [an IMC fav] knockoff cartoon [as well as several other pieces] on these servers many many times, but it was always hidden or deleted.

Anyone who frequents IMC knows what havoc White Trash Gun Nut can do. I think I still hold the record for the most responces to a newswire article at 103 comments.

On another note ... Bill Moyers started/funds IMC? Really? Not that I doubt this but are there any links or documents? Could one ask for a copy of Indymedia's finances/donors since they are a non profit?

this one actually made my jaw drop

The Nazis ain't got nothing on those genocidist Israelis. The difference between The Nazis and the Israelis is like the difference between Little Bo Peep and Jack the Ripper

It's an open publishing system. You'll get nuts posting stuff. Doesn't make the Indymedia funders apologists for the nuts.

There are some pretty wacky posters here too. A search for 'islamofacists' here on LGF turns up 96 threads.

Having said that, the different indymedia sites do employ different levels of censorship. The Irish indymedia site will pull postings that are are about antisemitism (or racist/libelous) and have no other point. All their pulled posts are viewable on another site however, so you can judge whether they are fair in their policies.

War is fine as long as your wearing the right styles.

Ither of these with poked holes for the eyes are in.
black for "anarchy" or "communism"
white for "purity in martrdom."

Since they love war, what they are really trying to say "We dissent against the US army (fasion statements)"

#46 mobius1

I'm lot going to let a few antisemites ruin it for me. Let it go.

Birds of a feather...

guys - read the comments - as full of nutters as indymedia is, these comments are actually not so terrible this time - its almost like everyone is piling on an LGF type of troll in there..

strange..

#54

I thought the comment was sarcastic when I read it. If it was for real, then that poster is either a real sicko or tragically ignorant -- in either case, beneath all contempt and certainly beneath our notice.

"Fifty-one out of 85 members of the Palestinian legislative council backed Mr Abbas - popularly known as Abu Mazen - and his programme which calls for an end to terrorism and the removal of all unauthorised weapons. "

Does he regard suicide attacks as terrorism or freedom fighting?

Using the term "nazi" is a lazy way to denigrate those you disagee with. It's used with equal zeal by the left and right.

Of course nazi is short for national socialist

view from Ireland #55,

Most of us, myself included, use the term 'Islamofascist' to distinguish between the militant Muslims (=Islamofascists) and the ordinary Muslims.

The difference between this and Zionazis, first of all, is the factual incongruency - most Islamic governments are in fact totalitarian. It's hard to find a Zionist government pursuing Nazi policies and hard to imagine what it would like. Secondly, most Zionazi advocates describe all Jews or all Israelis as Zionazis - it's not meant to distinguish but to describe.

view from Ireland,

You can tell that, BTW, from the headline - Zionazis get bombed.

#32: Johan, good analogy, though I pity anyone who drives a Peugeot, I prefer the Japanese reliability concerning smaller cars; I do not yet have enough money for a BMW :)

#64 hans ze beeman

though I pity anyone who drives a Peugeot, I prefer the Japanese reliability concerning smaller cars; I do not yet have enough money for a BMW :)

Huh... actually, Peugeot cars are very reliable... while I had lots of problems with the last BMW I owned ('96 740). BMW makes great engines, though.

#65: Caton, the BMW 740 series had some known problems that in the current version seem to have been removed (and I, by the way, prefer the 300 series, which drives as smooth as a cat and is less big - if I ever own that car, you'll have to wring it from my cold, dead hands :); the only thing I've heard from friends driving a Peugeot was that they spent some significant amount of time at the repair service. But alas, this is anectotical evidence. Though I remember that the ADAC here (sort of German car association) conducted a reliability analysis, where the Japanese cars ruled (in the small car segment). One has to make the choice - and I, for sure, want to fly over the Autobahn, where velocity limits are given by your engine alone :)

#65: Caton, which Peugeot model do you drive?

Btw, I read that Bush today or yesterday met with Schrempp, CEO of DaimlerChrysler; aim of the talk was a HIV help program for HIV-positive DaimlerChrysler workers and their families in South America (Schrempp also heads the Global Business Coalition on HIV/AIDS), but they obviously were talking about current US-German business relations as well (which are still relatively good, and Schrempp is a known fan of the US). I'll be very interested in what Powell's visit to Germany, planned for 12th or 13th May, will show. Though relatios are still far from normal (and remain strained), first signs at least of a normalization occur...

What you get to read in Indymeida are the products of syphilitc minds.
OT I read in the New York Sun yesterday that the ultra libaarl synagogue on the Upper West Side of Manhattan (where else would it be?) is honoring on June 4, Yasser Arafish's boyfriend Adam Shapiro. Talk about sick and demented!

I forgo tto metnion that the name of the synagogue in Manhattan honoring Arafis's boyfriend (and his family) is called B'nai Jeshurun. It is on West 88th Street.

Re: The difference between "Zionazis" and "Islamofascists"

One term refers to a collection of police states led by uniformed dictators with weird mustaches who want to wipe Jews from the face of the earth.

Hope that helps.

Hans,

How’ve ya been? Enjoying the May Day riots?

Yeah, I posted a comment over there which was either wiped or has not yet come up... Very simply:

"Re-posting a mainstream press article, with a one sentence inflammatory anti-semitic statement, is independent media in exactly what fashion?"

A lefty friend of mine said "But indymedia is news from the people, man! It's news from your fellow citizens!"

My response was very simple "I wouldn't trust most of them to watch my car for me without any form of anonymity; why should I trust them to report accurately behind as much anonymity as they can obtain?"

#71: Geebus, Geepers, these idiots require some hard action. When Stoiber was the chancellor candidate, these lefty brainless idiots wanted to create that happening in Munich. What did Stoiber do? "Zero tolerance" police program; any punklike or anarchofascist person on a train to Munich or walking around in Mnich was investigated and had to tell why he went to Munich (i.e. relatives); they immediately fact-checked it, and most were sent back home to their caves. There was not a single violent act in Munich then. Sigh... why is Berlin not capable of this.

Hans (#73),

But I thought the Germans were such pacifists? :-) What motivates this? Spring fever? Or some sort of political objective? And is the German press going to portray this as further proof that the US has destabilized the world with our war for oil?

#74; Geepers, it's a purely German phenomenon - it began in 1987, when extreme-left groups assembled in berlin May 1st, which here is celebrated as the "Day of Work". It became a riot then, and has ever since. But the press here is not reporting this as an american issue, they wouldn't be THAT stupid. Btw, I noticed by regularly checking der Spiegel (my used-to-be favourite paper, which grossly warped facts concerning Iraq War) that they are now rowing back a bit, no more open US-bashing. They now concentrate on the atrocities of the Saddam regime and home politics.

Hans,

I was just joking about the blame America thing.

They now concentrate on the atrocities of the Saddam regime

No Shit!? What's the world coming to? :-)

#47 really grumpy

You are certainly one of the robotic nutcases who actually believes this shit.

Actually, I volunteered at NYC IMC for a little while and I know how they operate. Yet for a person who has no experience in the matter, having likely never been at an IMC, you sure seem to act like you know a hell of a lot of what goes on there. By that logic, I assume you have a collection of Nazi paraphernalia in your closet. You're one of those nutjobs. Wait—I've never been to your house, how would I know this? Oh, I'm just a right-wing conservative so I automatically know better than you. Asshole.

You are just another nutcase in the unsavory bag of idiots who somehow, no matter how strong the evidence, insist dogmatically that your view is right, and that you don't boycott other positions, unless they are clearly wrong. You don't see a problem with that.

Dude—you don't even know me yet you're quickly stereotyping and labelling me because I disagree with your view, and not even adamantly, but inquisitively. I'm not insisting anything. That last quote you wrote may as well have been directed to yourself.

#50 Johan Wehtje

But the fact is that the demo's are planned by small , secretive and decidedly undemocratic commitees of hardcore activists, who craft a fairly hardline message, print the signs and slogans, and everyone else pretty much falls into line.

Obviously you have never participated in the organization of a demonstration. I find these sort of inexperienced assumptions especially frustrating and infuriating. Your "fact" is comepletely refutable. Come with me to an organizing meeting and you will see that they are comprised of individuals and affinity groups that come together of their own free will and that make all decisions based upon group consensus. No one is in charge and calling the shots. Everyone has a voice.

"arrestee's" (the delightful term for people who want to indulge in a little violence or vandalism under cover of a political demo)

Or people who participate in non-violent civil disobedience such as sit-ins and lockdowns. Stop being such a smug bastard. By your standards, Martin Luther King was a terrorist.

#57 NoPopNoStyle

Birds of a feather...

All I can say to that is, go fuck yourself.

What a bunch of smug bastards. I'm sorry I decided to pipe up in the middle of your Rush Limbaugh lovefest. You're all seeping with such hate I can't possibly believe that any of you are Torah-keeping Jews. A person who has the light of Hashem within them could never be so hateful nor filled with such anger and darkness. You worship Judaism like an idol, instead of loving Hashem and thus violate the most important commandment.

#77 mobius 1

I don't blame you for being irritated at those people, but why do you assume they are Jewish? Or that they should be or claim to be? At least half the posters here - probably more like 2 out of 3 - are Christian, atheist, or pagan.

Furthermore, dragging Hashem into it your criticism of them is extremely offensive. So is implying that "Torah-keeping Jews" never act badly (like the ones in Mea Shearim who stone people? or the ones arrested for fraud in upstate NY? or the everyday ones who beat their wives and molest children?).

While we're making assumptions about people, I'm going to assume you're either a Renewal type or an Orthodox baal t'shuvah. You sound like a smug holier-than-thou born-again, not a relaxed, tolerant FFB.

#78 HalfLife

I don't blame you for being irritated at those people, but why do you assume they are Jewish? Or that they should be or claim to be? At least half the posters here - probably more like 2 out of 3 - are Christian, atheist, or pagan.

Sorry, I was under the impression that the majority of readers here were Jewish considering the Jewish ethnocentricity of the subject matter.

Furthermore, dragging Hashem into it your criticism of them is extremely offensive. So is implying that "Torah-keeping Jews" never act badly (like the ones in Mea Shearim who stone people? or the ones arrested for fraud in upstate NY? or the everyday ones who beat their wives and molest children?).

Eh, Jews in Mea Shearim who stone people are no different from Islamic fundamentalists, except for the whole suicide bombing thing. They don't really "get it." If the Ba'al Shemtov saw what's become of chasidus he'd throw in his talis. But, really, why is it offensive of me to drag Hashem into this? Why is defending Israel more important than being a tzaddik? I thought Judaism stressed social action and compassion for those less fortunate, and also guidance for those lost in the wilderness, not damnation of your opponents. Only a love of Hashem and all his creations will bring Moshiach, not a Jewish homeland.

While we're making assumptions about people, I'm going to assume you're either a Renewal type or an Orthodox baal t'shuvah. You sound like a smug holier-than-thou born-again, not a relaxed, tolerant FFB.

Actually, I was born and raised frum, went to yeshiva until I was about 9, and my family secularized after they couldn't afford to pay the local Rabbinic council a bribe to keep another Kosher bakery from opening up around the corner from theirs. The council told everyone in town my parents bakery was no longer kosher by their standards, we went bankrupt, and I went to public school. After my Bar Mitzvah I embraced Eastern traditions, such as Buddhism, but eventually (after meeting a guru who I'd put all this stock in as having "the answer" who told me "Go and be Jewish, it's the same thing, just a different set of symbols") I found my way to Israel and studied at Aish HaTorah. There I felt as though I was being indoctrinated into a cult, so I came back, pursued a Jewish education at a secular college, failed there, took a job at a local JCC, and have been working there and taking classes at Hebrew Union College's Kollel ever since. My family on my mother's side is all chosidishe (my grandmother's nephews are the Munkackes & Dineveh rebbes), two of my sisters are frum, and most of my orthodox friends are Chabad Lubavitch. You could say I'm a renewalist, but only because the Rabbis I most identify with are Zalman Shachter-Shalomi and Arthur Waskow. Overall, I would say that I'm a seeker, not a smug holier-than-thou type, and that I have an earnest desire to see people live in love, admiration, and respect of one another.

After my Bar Mitzvah I embraced Eastern traditions, such as Buddhism, but eventually (after meeting a guru who I'd put all this stock in as having "the answer" who told me "Go and be Jewish, it's the same thing, just a different set of symbols") I found my way to Israel and studied at Aish HaTorah.

WHen I heard Kahane speak in the 1980s, a young man came up to the mike during the Q and A part. Mind you, a near riot was going on. he said something like:
"I sense a lot of hostility here, my personal guru the swami swami says that...

A huge groan from the multicultural leftists there to call Kahane a racist and several of the Jews interuppted, but Kahane asked the Jews to let him speak and not
"act like these animals."

Kahane asked him. Where you raised Jewish?
He said he was. Kane suggested that rather then looking for his spirituality in India etc. that he should explore his own religion first. Then Kahane offered to fly him to Israel and have him over for Shabbos dinner and get him inrolled on full scholarship in a yeshiva.
And the man agreed. THe Jews in the room cheered and the protestors seemed very confused.

#35 JimK :

Looks like you got some replies. I couldn't read past the first. It says:

I love michael moore he is god heston is a liar because he is a gun nut you suck... U need to learn to lissen to the truth when you here it because Moore speaks the truth

Damn, that structure is horrible. Let me correct it.

I love [M]ichael [M]oore[.] [H]e is [G]od[.] [H]eston is a liar because he is a gun nut[.] [Y]ou suck...[You] need to learn to lis[t]en to the truth when you he[a]r[] it[,] because Moore speaks the truth

And one more period.

[.]

#79 mobius 1

Interesting history...

As for my objection to

A person who has the light of Hashem within them could never be so hateful nor filled with such anger and darkness.

First, imagine swapping out "Jesus" for "Hashem." Don't you think that would be pretty tasteless? More generally, bringing religion into a secular discussion - especially using it as a club to beat someone with - is offensive. This is not a religious site, let alone a Jewishly religious site. Criticizing people on religious grounds is therefore out of bounds, just as it would be if you had said "Well, that's not very Christian of you!"

Also, frankly, I don't find the Torah-keeping Jews to be more "loving" than other Jews. Sometimes they are less so - intolerant, rigid, more interested in correct observance of ritual than Hillel's "Golden Rule." And the point I was trying to make is, humans are human, and everyone acts badly from time to time. However, once again, I agree that the personal attacks on you were unwarranted.

#83 HalfLife

I concede to your points.

#84 mobius 1

Thank you. That's extremely gracious of you. (Rare in these parts!)