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And Again

Sat, May 17, 2003 at 8:17:44 pm PDT

Another suicide bombing on a bus in Israel.

Four Israelis were killed and twenty were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up on an Egged bus in Jerusalem early Sunday morning. The attack, on line 6, took place shortly before 6 A.M., near French Hill, in the capital. The wounded were taken to Sha’arei Tzedek Hospital and Hadassah University Hosptial, Ein Karem.

End this, Arik. Just end it. Do whatever is necessary, and ignore the screams of outrage. This must stop.

UPDATE: nothing on the Internet yet, but there has been another suicide bombing in Jerusalem, in addition to the bus attack.

THIS MUST STOP.

UPDATE: Ariel Sharon has cancelled his trip to the United States.

UPDATE: I'm so full of rage right now I probably shouldn't be writing. But notice something: these latest Palestinian atrocities were directed at the same enemies they always seek to murder—Jewish civilians trying to go about their business and contribute to a functioning society. If the murderers really thought that Abu Mazen and his puppet government meant to shut them down, they would be attacking him and his Fatah cronies. They know the "roadmap" is a meaningless charade and it's business as usual with Abu Mazen in charge, and that's what they're doing—their filthy Jew-killing business as usual. We're going to hear that this is a "message" to Abu Mazen that the "militants" refuse to deal, and want to sabotage the "peace process," and it's all a pack of stinking LIES. There is no peace process, there is no roadmap, there is only Arab rejectionism and blind murderous hatred, and it's time to deal with it on their level and give them the war they want.

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491 comments

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1 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:19:08pm

Caton? About our joint venture....

2 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:22:34pm

#1 Paladin

Yeah. The only problem is the funding.

3 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:23:17pm

CNN: Second explosion in northern Jerusalem.

4 reaganite  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:23:33pm

Let me guess, the BBC will say Israels response will be another "roadblock"?

5 ploome  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:24:28pm

two bombings

6 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:24:47pm

The SCUM (Satanic cult of Muhammed) sure are active this week. What is it a islamic holiday or something.
My advice? stay away from SCUM the next few days, they sure all explosive.

7 Katie  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:24:47pm

I will gladly donate, Caton-Just tell me where! I am so sick of this I could just puke.

8 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:25:50pm

I forgot the caveats;
Islam is peace, and most muslims opppose genocide.

9 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:28:34pm

There have been two bombings.

10 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:28:58pm

#7 Katie

It would require a country to back it up, Katie. Or the need for funding would increase ten-fold. Think "access to restricted materials"...

11 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:29:22pm

#2 Caton

How much are we talking?

12 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:30:07pm

I wonder which piece of Palestinian filth will be appearing on MSNBCNNFOX to justify the bombings.

13 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:30:45pm

I don't want to hear any hee-hawing about the "silent majority" of peaceful muslims. In issues like this, I don't respect silent anybody.

14 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:32:01pm

Fox and CNN both say there are no casualties from the second bombing.

15 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:33:34pm

#9 zulubaby

Yes, second one in the same spot to kill the emergency services. Looks like it missed.

#11 Paladin

With state backing, 200 million bucks a year or so.

16 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:33:36pm

That's what they think of the 'Roadmap to Peace. Is everybody listening? Yeah, let's definitely grant them the "right of return". We need more homicide bomber savage terrorist bastards. Definitely.

17 sjm  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:35:06pm

"End this, Arik. Just end it. Do whatever is necessary, and ignore the screams of outrage. This must stop. "
no one says it better (many say it well) than you charles.
thank you for your powerful laserbeam voice.
spread the word everybody, we must stop playing the game of appeasement of devils.

18 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:36:29pm

DEBKA says 4 or 5 dead and 20 injured, some critically.

19 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:37:27pm

#15 Caton

Shouldn't take that long.

20 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:39:57pm

#19 Paladin

6 months to set up the logistics, 18 months campaign. But somebody with General Staff training should review the plan.

21 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:40:15pm

I was thinking on Friday when I was near midtown and saw the sign that has the amount of the national debt that keeps spinning up - Is there on the internet some islam counter that counts how peaceful islam has been this week. That way we could know when islamic holy days arrive by the counter spinning out of control.

22 Mitch Polka  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:40:50pm

#4 Reaganite.

Oh, I expect much more serious repercussions.
Why, Sharon may even go so far as to kill a couple of Arab hovels.

I can't even weep anymore.
Just emptiness and staring at the screen.

23 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:42:41pm

7 dead, 18 wounded, and the second bastard missed.

...and half of the people I'm calling don't fucking answer.

24 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:44:16pm

#20 Caton

Anyone in particular in mind?

25 Katie  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:44:19pm

No, I am serious, Caton, are you really considering it? If so, give me an e-mail address-I want to help!

26 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:44:46pm

I only wish we could be watching arabian blood spill tonight. Do SCUM families have any guilt after watching their family members commit sui/genocide by the hundreds like this?

27 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:47:21pm
UPDATE: nothing on the Internet yet, but there has been another suicide bombing in Jerusalem, in addition to the bus attack.

THIS MUST STOP.

It's not going to stop and you know it. Not until Israel suffers a nuclear blast. Let's just get it over with.

28 Robert  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:48:51pm

Via Israpundit:

Looking a bit down the road(map)

The settlers were marched out of the lands of Palestine at bayonet point, with crowds of jeering Israeli leftists pelting them with garbage as they moved into their temporary transit camps inside Green Line Israel. Liberal Jews in the United States organized a million man march in Washington together with Arabs and the Nation of Islam to celebrate the breaking out of peace and final settlement of the conflict. “Peace at Last” was the number one pop single. The State Department sent out a message urging Israel and Palestine to conduct good-faith negotiations and round-the-clock talks on all outstanding issues of disagreement still separating the two sovereign states. At long last, there were two states for two peoples. Land had been exchanged for peace. Peace had at long last broken out in the world´s most troubled region.

The morning after the Palestine Independence celebrations, the message arrived in the Israeli parliament, brought in by special messenger. The newly formed government of Palestine had only a small number of issues it would like to discuss with Israel. It proposed that peaceful relations be officially consummated as soon as Israel turned over to Palestine the Galilee and the Negev regions.

A hint to how this look down the road(map) ends: It starts with the letter G.

29 Susan  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:49:21pm

A couple of days ago it was Muhammad's birthday. I guess this is his birthday present.

30 Frank IMC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:49:31pm

At least the media didn't refer to it as "East Jerusalem" (as they did with Har Homa).

31 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:49:47pm

Hopefully we will be able to witness nuclear blasts in Dar-al-Satan (The home of islam) soon, I propose first Mecca, Paris, Umm-el-Fahm and deerborn to go to the raisins first.

32 Frank IMC  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:51:49pm

Actually the Arabs are big on one-month and 40-day "anniversaries". Seems to tie in with Iraq.

33 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:52:11pm

#29
As I have been explaining that murder is the way that worshippers of the Satanic Cult Uv Moochamud ("SCUM") celebrate their religion.

34 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:52:31pm

#27 NC,

Why do you say that? I'm not even saying I disagree. I'm just asking why you say it.

35 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:55:19pm

#24 Paladin

A dozen. None of them would support this kind of things.

#25 Katie

I'm serious, too. I started planning as a way of venting my frustrations. Now I see it's doable -- but not without backing from a country. And the only country that could be interested won't do it. So...

36 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:55:59pm

Sorry, it has happened again. Sorry for those who have lost loved ones. Sorry for those injured and maimed. Sorry for those who mourn the dead and injured.

IDF, please, immediately begin the deportation process for the paleostinian scum infesting Gaza and the West Bank. Pack all of them and their belongings up and move them to a muslim country. Let muslims take care of muslims.

37 Robert  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:56:41pm

News Now News Feed Israel

38 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 6:57:38pm

Ease restrictions, commence with the "talks." Anyone surprised the homocidal manics have been busy all week?

I am beyond dissapointed that the president now unflinchingly told us that "we" consider the SA friends and will together hunt down terrorists. We is in deep doodoo. HELP!!!!!! ANyone out there? No one is going to do shit about this.

39 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:00:21pm

#35 Caton

Don't be so sure.

I'm sure we are not the first ones to contemplate a "joint venture."

40 kathyn  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:00:45pm

If I were in charge in Israel, I would say "That's it. That's the last chance for the Palestinians. They can kiss the roadmap and statehood goodbye until they have quit the killing for at least 10 years." And everytime there's another bombing, then it's another ten years added on. No rewards to them for dealing death.

41 quark2  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:02:53pm

One thing everyone needs to remember....the state of Israel has a promise of 'never again'. I would not be surprised if they are hammered hard enough and cornered they will be letting loose a few nukes themselves. You can expect to see some sterile landscapes in the middle east if they are pressed hard enough. If they surmise they have nothing left to lose that is exactly the plan they will activate.
One thing that surprises me, is that someone hasn't blown up Mecca yet.

42 UziDoesIt  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:04:14pm

#36 Kirk

Deportation process??? So that they can live to do it again.

HELL NO

Destroy a whole neighborhood. Jenin would be a good place to start. Announce that this is what is going to happen EVERY time one of these reprobates takes a shortcut to Allah's whorehouse.

Let the world scream. Who gives a shit. Strength is all the Arabs respect. Show it to them in spades.

43 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:04:49pm

PDM--Because people have been saying "THIS MUST STOP" for 55 years now, through wars/bombings/shootings/stabbings and what have you, and it hasn't stopped. Evidently, 55 years of murder isn't enough to convince Israelis that the Arabs really do mean it when they say they want to drive the Jews into the sea. So why not another 55? I figure the only thing that's going to get through to Israel is a truly genocidal act of terror, be it biological or (since bioweapons don't cause pretty explosions) atomic. So let's get on with it. That's where this is all heading anyway, so why put it off for another five or ten years? Get it over with and then respond, and then rebuild.

44 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:05:05pm

So Fox is doing a recap of the last 12 hours. Three homicide bombings and one failed infiltration into a settlement.

"Kill the Roadmap", says Dan Gillerman, and Sharon has cancelled his trip to Washington.

45 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:07:02pm

OT: Of all places... an article in the Pravda:

A State of Palestine? There Will Be None -- Leaders of Arab states are not interested in creation of an independent Palestinian state.

46 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:07:43pm

mecca's gotta go.

47 Don'tknow  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:07:47pm

The Palestinians don't want peace. They want victory.

And as long as we keep shoving road maps down Israel's throat, they'll think it's within their grasp.

48 Doug  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:09:08pm

kathyn (#40) - That sounds tempting. Unfortunately there are too many crazies who couldn't care less about that kind of timeframe. An exploded bus or bar is just too attractive to pass up. Besides, cause and effect is apparently not their strong suit.

49 Professor Kaos  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:09:17pm

I noticed that AP referred to the terrorists in Morocco as "terrorists". The terrorists in Israel only qualify as bombers.

50 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:09:29pm

Robert (#37)

Good link, thanks for that. I'm bookmarking it.

The parents of the second bomber must be so ashamed that their lame-ass son only succeeded in killing himself. Do they still get to throw a tea party, I wonder?

51 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:10:08pm

Uzi, I've been told to tone it down when dealing with muslims and the paleostine scum who attack Israel. Right now I really wouldn't care if the IAF and the IDF used napalm and cluster munitions on the cities infested with terrorists. Screw civilian casualties. Since there are no Israeli civilians in the minds of the terrorists that seems to imply that there are no civilians in the paleostine occupied territories. Treat them all like combatants and get it over with.

52 Mitch Polka  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:11:20pm

#41 Quark2
"letting loose a few nukes"

Doesn't need to be anything at that level.
Just unleash IAF & IDF.
Oh, and, sorry Dubya, but you can just keep the FUCK out of our internal affairs for a bit, why doncha.

53 Melissa  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:11:33pm

I am at the mercy of CNN international in my hotel room (no Fox...ugh).

The world's media -- most especially CNN -- seem to be the only fools who actually believe that Arafat and Mazen are not behind these 4 (?) attacks in 12 hours.

54 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:11:39pm

Professor Kaos (#49)

I noticed that AP referred to the terrorists in Morocco as "terrorists".

Uh uh, international terrorists (whatever that means).

55 UziDoesIt  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:11:41pm

#41 Quark

You are so right. Now would be a very good time for Israel's air force to do to a large part of the territories what the US did to Dresden. Scorched earth.

What's going to happen, besides the Euroweenies and UN issuing another resolution or two? Ari Fleischer will say that it was not productive. The Arab countries will scream. But they'll do nothing with the US sitting in Iraq.

Now is the time. Load up the MOABs. Next stop for the reprobates: Allah's whorehouse.

56 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:11:45pm

Don't worry, I'm sure there's going to be a big operation in Gaza next week where a couple of houses will get bulldozed and some random fuck from Hamas will get picked off. And then, if we're really lucky, maybe Sharon will send the IDF into Ramallah to set off a couple of explosions around Arafat's compound so that Arafat can practice his "concerned" look while privately chuckling at the fact that Sharon doesn't dare actually kill him. And then maybe we can all have a big circle jerk to celebrate. Yay.

57 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:12:45pm

Was it Catch 22 (???) that the fellow kept ending up at the same point in time, with each time in the situation he could not escape, becoming more dire?

58 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:12:48pm

Caton (#23)

Hang in there. I know what you're going through.

59 jim  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:13:32pm

the only solution for Israel is war. it's been declared on them. perhaps, we should get out of their way and let them end this. the real problem is Arafat has never been definitively defeated. it's time to let his enemy take it's gloves off. And don't for a minute think Israel has been giving this fight all it's got.

60 Phil (CDN)  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:13:40pm

I'm looking forward to the joint press conference where Arafat and Mazen condemn these latest attacks.

It's time for Israel to present the Palestinians with a Roadmap to Jordan, or Syria, or Egypt...

61 Doug  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:14:21pm

zulubaby (#50) - Thanks for a needed bit of humor.

62 Professor Kaos  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:15:17pm

#54 -- I think it was the Moroccan government that called the bombings there an example of "international terrorism", the AP headline said terrorists had done the bombing (but I cant find the link anymore) No sign of terrorists in Israel according to the AP stories Im looking at.

63 UziDoesIt  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:16:09pm

#60 Phil

You got that right. Buses are leaving folks. Cairo, Damascus, Amman, take your pick. Get on or catch a MOAB tomorrow.

We've had enough of the Holocaust on the installment plan.

64 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:17:27pm

#56 NC

You know what? You're right. Israel is not angry enough yet.

#58 zulubaby

One not accounted for.

65 BigFire  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:18:16pm

Well, one of these day, the terrorists and their backers will wake up one with Mecca turn into glass. Then they will know what true meaning of terror.

66 Southerner  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:18:30pm

In all probability, the "roadmap" is DOA--cause of death, murder by Palestinian.

May the victims of this latest atrocity rest in peace and in light eternal.

Southerner

67 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:20:06pm

Sharon has cancelled his trip to Washington.

Hope he is meeting with his military.

Hope the counterattack is a doozy!

68 Frank IMC  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:20:50pm

#57 Teacake -

Yes, Catch-22 - the focus was Yossarian's experience of seeing a fellow bombardier having his guts blown out by anti-aircraft fire.

Also, "Slaugherhouse Five", where the focus was Billy Pilgrim's experience in a German POW camp in Dresden during the bombing of that city, intertwined with his simultaneous survival of a plane crash and his wife's death from carbon monoxide poisoning in an automobile accident while driving to the hospital where he was taken after the plane crash.

69 nik  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:22:08pm

with every bombing that goes unanswered the price of jewish life in the eyes of the world decreases.

How long before the jews answer terrorism with terrorism? The palestinians make mortars, why can't some jews make a davidka and leave a deep crater where al-aqsa mosque used to be?

70 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:22:29pm

Jonathan Peled (Israeli foreign minister)just said all talks are off until the terrorism stops. He sounds pretty pissed off.

71 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:23:09pm

hi all
what a lovely way to wake up.
i got my freind to take the girls to school. this morning .. we are all to shaky to take the bus at the momeent...
but i am my family are ok, at least.
sometimes you just want to take our kids, throw them in the bed, under the covers and stay there... you cant though...they are on their way to school now.

72 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:24:22pm

#71 lizzy

Our prayers go with them.

73 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:24:31pm

#71 lizzy

Thank G-d you're safe. I was worried about you and your family.

74 Mark  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:25:16pm

Tomorrow, President Bush and/or Secretary Powell should make a strong statement revisiting their desire for a Palestinian state. It should be obvious to all the educated people in the world that the Palestinians are not worthy of a state of their own. Maybe make them a part of Jordan and be done with them.

75 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:25:24pm

Caton, keep trying.

Paladin (#67)

It frustrates me that Sharon has once again cancelled his trip to Washington because of terrorist attacks. I don't think he should announce his trips anymore because this is becoming predictable. Every time he announces plans to visit Washington or is in Washington, there is an escalation of Palestinian savagery.

76 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:26:05pm

#67 Paladin ,

Sharon has cancelled his trip to Washington.

The Arabs are really good at that. They have managed to keep Sharon from meeting Bush (or cut the meeting short) in the past with terror tactics.

77 rabidfox  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:26:18pm

You bloggers over there in Israel, PLEASE take care of yourself.

Canton, I'm with Katie, if there is anything that I can do to help, please let me know. (other than providing several billion dollars -- that's a little beyond my resources.)

78 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:26:24pm

Just saw on CNN some footage of the bus after the bombing with one person hanging out the window and another person limp, arched over the back of his seat.

79 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:27:42pm

lizzy!

Thank G-d you posted, I've been worrying about you. Look after yourself sweetie, we're thinking of all of you, we're with you.

80 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:28:20pm

aww, thanks evryone..
it happened on the other side of town , near givat sarfatit,,, on the way to hebrew u... the bus was pretty emtpy .... poor poor people,
never the less, news in saying 7 killed.

81 Ken  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:29:10pm

Can anyone tell me why the U.S. administration is Hobbesian when it comes to its own security, but Kantian when it comes to Israel's? Most of us have learned since 9/11 that wishful thinking gets people killed, yet when it comes to those vicious fascists at Israel's throat, everyone (even President Bush!) calls for Israeli concessions. We should instead be telling Israel we will support it in answering the war that has been declared upon it. We should tell her that we support her in demanding the unconditional surrender of "Palestine".

82 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:29:30pm

#75 zulubaby

YOU'RE frustrated?

I'm sure we all are. I don't mean to be short with you.

Mr. Sharon's trip had been scheduled for some time.

It will happen. Just not now. Now he needs to respond to the killing of innocent citizens of his country.

83 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:29:44pm

#75 zulubaby

It frustrates me that Sharon has once again cancelled his trip to Washington because of terrorist attacks. I don't think he should announce his trips anymore because this is becoming predictable. Every time he announces plans to visit Washington or is in Washington, there is an escalation of Palestinian savagery.

I wondered if I was the only one to see a connection.

Thanks.

84 Michael Ubaldi  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:30:00pm

This return to the ridiculous "roadmap" farce was bound to happen. Politically, it was most likely Bush's nod to Tony Blair for supporting the liberation of Iraq.

Bush has made the gesture - for all its worthlessness - so I wouldn't be surprised if this latest atrocity is the last straw for the next year or so before amnesiac diplomats assign virtuous attributes to the West Bank Arabs again.

If the war against terror and dictatorship in the Near East continues, we should expect to see this so-called "Key to the Middle East" evaporate as Arabs scuttle off to democratized countries for a decent job. It may take some time - but I have faith that the besieging of Israel won't last forever.

85 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:30:06pm

thank you, evryone...
going to go and de- stress now a bit.
, todah, lehitraot, ve kol tuv!

86 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:32:31pm

#77 rabidfox

I don't see a way to strike back at the Palis without Israel's support. And Israel will never condone a terrorist campaign, let alone support it. The whole thing is still-born. Or I wouldn't be talking about it on the net.

87 nachtwacht  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:32:32pm

I think it's about time for an IDF coup d'etat, to get rid of the cockroaches in the Muqata, then temporary exile to Australia for those held responsible.

Either that, or play the Arabs against the Arabs (honoured Sir, please help yourself to the millions of ... but I do require a small service first).

88 Mitch Polka  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:35:20pm

Anybody know how many of those big, ugly, armored bulldozers Israel owns?
Line 'em up.
Head 'em up.
Heeyah! Move 'em out!

89 Clio  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:35:30pm

Sharon prepared for his meeting with Abu Mazen by conferring with only those cabinet members who are his yes-men, and shut out everyone who might disagree with him.

NOT PRESENT - Netanyahu, who knows more about international affairs than anyone else in the cabinet

ALSO NOT PRESENT - Natan Sharansky, and Limor Livnat, and all the others who might not say "yes" to Sharon's line.

Thus he did not seek or get any diversity of views -- only a rubber stamp on what he means to do anyway.

And what he means to do is the opposite of the will of the voters who elected him == Or, more accurately, dis-elected the Osloids of the Left.

90 UziDoesIt  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:35:51pm

Waste them. Let the Arab mothers scream. Let them see what they get when they kill innocents, when they demand Israel's destruction from the loudspeakers of the mosques. Killing Israelis is going to get them dead.

That should be what happens. It's Israel's fault if it doesn't.

91 kellyds  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:37:06pm

The only sign on the Road in this Road Map says "Dead End".

Is there someone out there who could help me find a resource? A friend of mine was killed in Israel in 1978 or 1979 in bus bombing while she was there on vacation. I didn't find out about it for several years (we had fallen out of contact), and wasn't able to get good information on it. Is there any where a person can go to find out about a bombing that old? I just want to know what happened, and (if there is any way)where she is buried.
Thanks.

92 MikeO  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:37:32pm

Animals.

93 Jheka  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:38:23pm

I need to call my cousin in Ma'ale Adumim. Does anybody have a good 10-10 code for calls from California to Israel? I'll comment after I make sure that the family is O.K.

O.K., one quick comment now.

No counterattacks. No incursions. No targeted killings.

War damn it. War.

94 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:38:30pm

#83 Caton,

I wondered if I was the only one to see a connection.

What's so hard to see??? It's obvious that the homicidal Hammites hate it when the "Big and Little Satan's" have any kind of meeting whatsoever.

95 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:39:55pm

93,, jeeheka...
i can call for you if youd like,,,, is there a way to send me the number?

96 gary bruce  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:40:41pm

Let's face it--the Israelis would have crushed the Paleos long ago except for our own government's (yes, the US government) refusal to allow that to happen.

It's obvious that Bush and company are terrified of the consequences throughout the Arab world if Israel should conclusively defeat the Paleos after decades of "restraint."

So more restraint is being imposed on Israel by us--yes, the American policy is to refuse to allow a definitive Israeli victory over the Islamofascists. We stepped in in 56, 67, 73 and 82. Bush has demanded that Sharon not harm Arafat.

WE are the one country that Israel cannot afford to piss off. So unless Bush gets a change of heart and mind, the White House will continue to urge "restraint" on Israel until the IDF mutinies, or the Israeli civilian population invites a military takeover.

97 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:41:06pm

#94 PDM

No, not "any kind of meeting". What they are trying to do is to sabotage head of state level negociations. Any minister can go, though.

98 jim  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:41:30pm

# 89 you just convinced me it's all Sharon's fault. what was I thinking? How I long for the day when human beings will be held accountable for their own actions. apparently, of necessity for many, that day must be postponed for the Palestinian Authority.

99 nik  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:41:37pm

the savage was disguised as an orthodox jew

100 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:42:04pm

Meanwhile, to see what's on the horizon for America, click here and scroll down to "The Real News" section. Inevitable.

101 quarks  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:42:18pm

The Israelis need to start a covert program reaching out and touching someone at the top everytime one of these attacks occur. I think it's time arafish became history, now there's an interesting thought! You know a Jeremiah Johnson kind of thing? :)
I am tired of the years and years of talking heads, having a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting..etc....just like what's happening in discussions over what should be done about Zimbabwe and the Congo. Some @$$ needs kicking big time....

102 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:42:38pm

Yes Paladin (#75), I'm frustrated. I know that everyone else is too and didn't mean to imply that I had a sole mandate on that emotion. I'm as pissed off as you are, believe me. I was merely responding to your post, not criticising you or disagreeing.

I know Sharon's trip was previously scheduled, I know it will still happen, I know he needs to be in Israel right now. I was merely voicing my frustration about how the terrorists do this every time, without fail, and they achieve what they set out to do--disrupt plans, distract Sharon, destroy everything that they touch.

What they fail to understand is how much clearer they make it that they are not interested in peace and that the "Roadmap" is a weak joke. I'd prefer that we didn't have to pay for the demonstration in Jewish blood.

103 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:43:02pm

#99, nik, again?

104 Donna V.  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:43:50pm

Caton (64) wrote:

You know what? You're right. Israel is not angry enough yet.

Holy Christ, what will have to happen to make them angry enough? An attack that kills hundreds, or thousands? I'm half a world away and I'm plenty angry at those filthy bastards. To call them vermin is to pay them an undeserved compliment.

I am afraid that that the Israelis have developed their own version of what Daniel Patrick Moynihan called "defining deviancy down," deviancy in their case meaning the amount of terror they can tolerate. The frog is slowly boiling to death, but doesn't jump out of the pot,...,:-(

105 kellyds  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:44:09pm

Sorry, about my above post; her name was Michelle S. I don't remember her last name in full (in elementary school, last names aren't important). She would have been a teenager (16 maybe). Her brother is the one who told me she had died when I saw him on chance at a mall and asked about her.

106 tomcat  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:44:44pm

#88 I think you mean "big and beautiful" regarding the dozers.

107 really grumpy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:44:47pm

For 3 days I have been trying to chase this blog and read every post, and because I am a sucker for punishment I've been reading every linked article.

I can't keep up. This blog has reached the point where in order to have a voice you must skip posts and comments. That is both good and bad, but it forces me to make choices I don't want to make, because I want to see the big picture.

One part of the picture is becoming quite clear, however. These rabid dog Islamist scum of the earth will continue to cause unimaginable suffering for as long as they mar the face of the earth.

So I have a new idea, based on the teachings of sharia - the Israelis are going about suppression of violence in entirely the wrong way. They are acting the just victims of random and horrific violence, and imposing their own code of morality upon their suffering and their response.

It is time for Israel to get in step with the times, and to avoid killing the young men who have been killing them as much as is humanly possible. Instead, for every Israeli slaughtered indiscrimately by the Islamist haters of mankind, the appropriate response is to kill five of their women for each Israeli. Or at least girls approaching child-bearing age.

Oh, How Barbaric I Am! Eat shit and die. If the Israelis start killing the bread and butter of Islamist revolution, they will soon find themselves without an appropriate number of breeders to perpetuate their hatred. While the morally despicable terrorists of Islam treat their women like rented donkeys, I see no reason for the Israelis to treat them even that well.

Slaughter them all, and then let the brave warriors of Mohammed soak in the consequences of their actions. They will be favored warriors for Allah, but instead of 72 virgins in heaven, they will have 1/3 of a murderer/killer woman to breed more of their disgusting kind.

Aren't I horrible? Aren't I mean? Yes, I suppose I am. But at least I feel that my emotions balance the psychotic irrationality of those who would kill indiscrimately for Allah. So be it then.

One dead Israeli, five dead women of the Islamist movement. If anyone thinks that won't have an effect, I have an Eiffel tower to sell you.

108 BigFire  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:45:33pm

Re: #52

I don't think the enemy will get the message until their most holy place is glass.

109 Robert  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:45:51pm

#50 zulubaby

Dozens of news feeds there on dozens of topics. Play around with the drop down windows on the sidebar.
'Course you already figured it out I'm sure.

Number of murdered Israelis now at 8 according to the BBC

Mr. President, tear up that map.

110 Mitch Polka  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:46:36pm

#91 Kellyds
Try contacting Dr.Lerner at IMRA. imra@netvision.net.il
They keep pretty good historical records.

111 nik  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:47:37pm

#103 yes. Same as in Hebron.

112 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:47:58pm

#102 zulubaby

I apologize. We are all pissed and emotions are running very high tonight.

I think enough is too much. It's time to kick some EgyptoJordanian ass.

I don't see any other way.

113 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:48:10pm

kellyds (#91)

The only sign on the Road in this Road Map says "Dead End".

Well said.

nik (#99)

the savage was disguised as an orthodox jew

Sickening, and it's not the first time they've done that either, as I'm sure you're aware of.

114 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:49:01pm

#97 Caton,

What they are trying to do is to sabotage head of state level negociations.

And it's as obvious as the fact that you always want to be right. To the point where you'll argue somethng petty like "any kind of meeting" or that Jewish Creationism isn't Creationism.

115 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:49:27pm

#93
jheeka
i sent you an e mail.. i will call your cousin for you,, anyone else who wants to call, i will do it for you...

116 UziDoesIt  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:50:30pm

107 Really Grumpy

I am SO with you on this.

Go medieval on them, I say. Give them a Naqba to end all Naqbas. A September 11 of their own. And the knowledge that it will happen any time Israel chooses and any time their "brave martyrs" takes a short cut to Allah's whorehouse.

Brutal times call for brutal means.

117 MikeO  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:50:51pm

#112 Paladin
how about Yassin's ass, to start with?

118 darren  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:51:30pm

CNN execs must have been shocked seeing body parts hanging out of the bus windows. in fact they must have been SO shocked that they immediatly cut away to an "important message." That message was Larry King interviewing day-time tv host Dr. Phil. The real message? CNN is garbage. Not that any other station is better, after all, they're not showing anything. Oh, and go to CNN's website, they're calling this an "incident"

119 kellyds  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:52:03pm

#110

Thank you.

120 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:52:50pm

#117 MikeO

That's the general idea.

But not first. give him some time to contemplate his demise.

121 Dozerman  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:52:54pm

The only way these horrific bombings will stop is if the Israelis start driving car bombs into the hearts of Nablus, Ramallah, Jenin, Tulkaram, and Gaza City. These Palestinian lunatics understand only one thing: force. The time has come for the Israelis to flatten them.

I am glad that Bush was so sure that by deposing Saddam a "new" Middle East would emerge. The Palestinians didn't head the message, it is time they are flattened! The only "road map" necessary is the one which leads to Nablus, Ramallah, Jenin, Tulkaram, and Gaza City.

Time to fire up those engines boys!

122 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:53:12pm

Photo from the scene. Look at this fucking shit:

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

123 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:55:11pm

UziDoesIt (#116),

Going medieval sounds like a good idea. Sharon recreating Sherman's march to the sea would also be rather impressive (say a 15 mile wide stretch of ruin and devestation right through some of the enemy territories).

124 Seymour Paine  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:56:00pm

Absolutely, end it, any way that works. Mass retaliation, a wall, deportation, whatever. It really doesn't matter at all. The roadmap is an embarrassment and is forgotten. I hope that if something good comes out of this horror it is just this: compromise with evil is impossible. Anyway, I'm just beyond making sense.

125 Dude  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:56:11pm

There are only a few alternatives that will bring this to an unambiguous end: 1) Finally defeat the Arabs living on Israel's doorstep, 2) Start moving them out into neighboring countries to be absorbed by their own brethren, or 3) some combination of the two. What is Sharon waiting for? What the hell is his game plan? The Jews are always crippled by guilt and self-doubt when it comes to these matters, but they have done more than their part in trying to accomodate the Arabs Jew-haters surrounding them. It's time to bring this to a close.

126 Bill Jefferson  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:56:20pm

#16 zulubaby

Good thought. It does seem that every time an Arab exercises his "right of return," Jews end up dead and maimed.

As to whether to keep up the "homicide bomber" label, I'm on the edge as to whether to return to calling them "suicide bombers" because the Koran and the religion of peace absolutely 100% always forbids killing yourself - although "martyrdom ops" seem to be excluded - or to call them what they really are: Genocide bombers.

127 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:56:40pm

#101 quarks

Caesarea is being reactivated. But it takes time.

#104 Donna V.

Angry enough? Let's check that.

Would you support shelling ALL Pali 'refugee camps' with chemical weapons, AND detonating a nuke over each Arab capital, plus Mecca, then just to be sure put ricin in the water supply of all Pali towns?

#105 kellyds

Right now most Israeli sites are unreacheable from France. But, I'm looking for that information.

128 Robert  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:57:01pm

NYT

"In a statement after the meeting, Sharon said it was agreed that the first priority in peacemaking must be stopping Palestinian attacks."

I'd say that pretty much proves Abbas/Mazen's ineffectiveness. He can't even back up his own word.

Not that he ever meant to keep it.

Just making a point.

Mr. President, tear up that map!

129 Jheka  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:57:05pm

#95 & 115 lizzy:

I really appreciate the offer. It's tremendously kind of you. I better call them myself, though. It's been much too long since I've spoken to them and much, much too long since I've travelled to see them. I was going to go about a year ago but I let my family talk me out of it because of the danger.

Well, I haven't had a vacation in a while. Maybe it's time to check out the El Al website and just show up at their doorstep.

130 alexbmn  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:57:54pm

this problem is that Israelis ARENT ANGRY. They look at this bombing as almost an inevitable fact of their lives. Lets not forget Sharon's goverment was reelected by a large majority.Its worthless policy of police action, revolving door prisons and Arafat alive and well has been going on for more then two years. I dont understand how the Israeli public could live with this situation but they have for the last two years and seemingly dont mind. I dont understand them.

131 danrudy  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:58:38pm

I figured it out:

the reason the media only gets offended by Israeli action is that the Pali's can't really control their actions...it isnt their fault.
They seem to just suffer from "spontaneous combustion" like the drummers from Spinal Tap

132 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:58:46pm

Hummm.... grab old fishface from his compound, strap on a dynamite belt then lower him into any pal town by heliocopter and ignite. He always whines how he wants to be a martyr for his people, well I say, its time to grant your wish!

133 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:59:07pm

#114 PDM

And it's as obvious as the fact that you always want to be right. To the point where you'll argue somethng petty like "any kind of meeting" or that Jewish Creationism isn't Creationism.

Cool down, OK? I've still not reached everybody, and probably neither did you, so I suggest we stop that for the moment. We'll scream at each other in 24 hours if you want, but please, not right now.

134 gary bruce  Sat, May 17, 2003 7:59:40pm

To the Israelis on this thread, I ask this: why do you think Sharon is afraid of waging war, even though he's been given a mandate to do so?

135 Outsider  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:00:10pm

Palestinians don't "want" anything.
They are pawns in the hands of the Arab world.
After all, they were invented by the arab world some 30 years ago...
Since palestinians don't follow their own interests, it is not possible to negotiate with them until the surrounding arab regimes collapse and stop getting in the way.

And I disagree as far as war on terror is concerned.
The military & shin-bet are constantly working against the terror networks and foil amazing numbers of terror attacks. In war there are always casualties and this is the unfortunate reality of the middle east.
We endured a far worse situation before operation defensive shield (two-three daily terror attacks) and to be quite frank with you, I'm hardly impressed by their current abilities. You go numb, indifferent & cynical after a while, and we got there quite some time ago.

Besides, the Israeli public can only go so violent,
the unfortunate reason is something that happpened 55 years ago. Do you honestly expect the survivors of the holocaust to bomb innocent civillians on the whim of retaliation? We wouldn't be able to do that even if palestinians changed their name officialy into "Nazies" and wore the Swatiska symbol.
Allow me to remind you that the only retaliation so far was destroying PA buildings as well as the more recent practice of destroying the homes of suicide bombers. Military operations conducted by Israel in palestinian towns are always for the purpose of seizing terrorists & destroying weapon's workshops. never retaliation. There is reason behind every bullet, shell or bomb that Israel sends their way.

The only thing that Sharon hasn't done (which Israelies consider an option) is kill Arafat.
I say no, they deserve the old goat.
call me a sissy but I can't think of a worse punishment.

136 Alex F  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:00:23pm

I'm dating an Israeli and trust me when she tells me they are tired and are approaching the point of no hope. They will do anything for peace.

Easy for me to say, but they've waited this long and fought this hard, don't give up now.

She gets upset at me when i say that.

137 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:00:33pm

More photos. Lot of corpses in this one, so you can bet there'll be plenty of Palestinians jerking off to it when it's published in the newspapers tomorrow:

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

138 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:02:58pm

caton, pdm, etc..
please, ill contact you all by e- mail if i can... give me the numbers, and ill call... ok?

139 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:03:45pm

NC (#137) that sounds like a target rich environment when the paleostine scum begins dancing in the street in celebrations. Zap a few of their parades with naplam.

140 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:04:46pm

134gary


a little sensitivity please.. we dont feel like arguing this crap now,, let us digest this... jeez.

141 Susan  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:06:06pm

Sydney Morning Herald is reporting 7 dead now:


[Link: www.smh.com.au...]

142 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:06:08pm

#138 lizzy

Thanks -- but that's ok. Everybody's accounted for.

Now...

#114 PDM

My point is that the goal of the Palis is not to stop any decision-making. They don't give a shit about that. What they are stopping is P.R. -- and it works, because Israel's P.R., frankly, sucks big time.

143 Haiku  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:06:14pm

My condolences to the people of Israel. I just arrived home and saw the tragic news. I can't express my horror at seeing the victims of this savage attack. Terrorists acts like these come from the pit of hell. Thank you "Palestinians" to opening my eyes to the sickness of your culture. I used to have some sympathy for you a few years ago but now I have none. I and other Americans are realizing what the Jews have known for centuries; "Palestinians" are pure evil. Rest assured God is with Israel and because of that it will be victorious in the end.

144 Alex F  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:06:34pm

One point guys: this (justifiable) ranting about nuking Mecca and shelling Palestinian settlements are the quotes that will be used by our friends at NaziMedia.

145 Kuss Ukhtun  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:06:41pm

Wu Kuss Ikhtkun.

146 pissed off  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:07:11pm

Excuse me while I puke all over Gaza & the West Bank.

And while I retching I'd like to rain my stench on the double standards the world imposes on Israel.

147 Robert  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:08:00pm

Alex #136

see #28 and have your girl read the entire article.

It's frightening.

148 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:08:46pm

Details on the bombing from Ha'aretz:

Jerusalem Police Chief Mickey Levy said that the bomber, who was disguised as a religious Jew, boarded the bus at its first stop, near Pisgat Ze'ev, which is near the Green Line.

A kippah (skullcap) and tallit (prayer shawl) were found on the bomber, Levy said.

149 Debbie  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:08:54pm

I'm glad the term "roadblock" is only metaphorical or the terrorists would blow that up too.

The fallacy of recycling the 'roadblock' line lies in the fact that this is not small scale fringe violence. It's highly organized, funded, supported, applauded. Consider how many terrorists have been killed or apprehended, how many attacks have been thwarted, weapons and weapons factories destroyed, how can you conclude that this is fringe violence? Its a WAR.

Why make peace with war wagers who have umpteen security forces who could conceivably crack down (if they were willing to adjust their politics, abide a treaty, and put themselves at risk) but do not? Yes, peace is obviously preferable to war but it takes two sides.

150 TrueBob  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:09:30pm

Those of you who read the Lee Harris think piece, Our World Historical Gamble, may remember this bit:

"And that is why, in order to achieve our end of heightening their grasp on reality, no means should be ruled out. We must be prepared to use force "unstintingly," as Woodrow Wilson declared on America's reluctant entry into World War I. On this count, we must have no illusions. Until they are willing to play by our rules, we must be prepared to play by theirs. "

Certainly this applies to the Israelis.

151 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:09:38pm

#144 Alex F

One point guys: this (justifiable) ranting about nuking Mecca and shelling Palestinian settlements are the quotes that will be used by our friends at NaziMedia.

Well, NaziMedia can suck my dick. Then they'd better spread 'em and relax, or it's gonna hurt.

152 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:10:21pm

137nc
THOSE PICTURES SHOULD BE ILLEIGAL TO SHOW, I AM NOW CRYING P[LEASD ITS ENOUGHT TO LIVE WITHT, DONT MAKE US SEE IT]
CANT DEAL WITH THAT,, LIKE PEOPEL I SEE ON THE BUS

IM GOING NOW

153 gary bruce  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:10:34pm

Lizzy:

Digest what? This has been going on forever. I am Jewish, but I no longer have any respect for the Israeli government, military or public for allowing their slow destruction to take place. Again. Despite having an army, navy, air force, and intelligence service. And a lot of non-Jews feel the same way.

154 Model4  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:10:35pm

#107 Really grumpy: Stop it. I feel your pain, but you forget... we haven't even started to fight against the warriors of Islam in the PLO. How dare we say they've pushed us too far, when we have been going out of our way to portray their murderous activities as acceptable? Not particularly appreciated, but something we're perfectly willing to tolerate.

You guys saying "nuke Mecca" forget... these bastards are capable of spinning any atrocity or setback. The people there would be martyrs, the religion would continue as is, the murders would not stop.

We're making piss-poor excuses for how our governments are deliberately failing us and feeding women and children to the blood-lust for Jews that thrives in Europe and the American Left.

Fuck you Sharon. Take another photo-op saying kind words and scattering dirt over an itty-bitty coffin in Israel. Go blow up a metal shop and wash your hands clean. Give some funds to those guys that pick up bits of flesh and hair with tweezers off your streets. Whatever you do, don't get off your fat ass and call to the PEOPLE of America for help. Get your proud ass to ask for help from Bibi in this regard.

Fuck you Bush. Give us another "Religion of Peace" sound-byte. Tell us how Our Friends, the Saudis, are doing everything possible to fight terror, while having Ari tell us the Israelis are taking actions that are "heavy-handed and unhelpful" and that they should "show more restraint." Cover for the PLO and staunchly refuse to tell the American people how they have refused to act to stop the terror and still call for the destruction of Israel.

Time for both you bastards to fight or step down. You're failing in your primary duty toward the innocent loved ones of your people/ your ally. I'll put on a full-body condom and crawl in bed with the Democrats if that's what it takes to find someone to live up to the "Bush Doctrine." Time for the American people to be motivated by a leader to put an end to this, because Israel shouldn't have to take this on alone without military, financial and moral support from the US. And Mr. Bush, you know DAMN WELL that the longer this gaping gash festers in the Middle East, the more American lives it's going to cost too. Really. Fuck y'all both.

155 Charles  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:11:00pm

#145, who posted under the name "Kuss Ukhtun", used the same IP address as "Triana Beller" who posted a number of comments yesterday. I don't know what your post means, but I'm on to you, you asshole.

Can anyone translate that comment?

156 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:11:40pm

SHOWING DEAD GRNADMAS IN A BUS JUST CHEAPENS OUR LIVES,,, CANT WE HAVE DIGNITY,, EVEN IN DEATH OUR LIVES HERE ARE ON PERMANENT OBSERVATION AND DISPLAY

157 Ariel  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:12:13pm

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

158 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:14:43pm

The Paleostinians have spoken loudly and clearly; no equivocation about a "Roadmap" there. While the Morlocks-By-The-Bay argue that it's the Israelis who need to

develop a friendly, peaceful, cooperative relation with the rest of the inhabitants a Palestine.

they also send along this happy sentiment: "From the Rvier(sic), to the Sea... Palestine will be Free!"

OK Morlocks, which is it???

159 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:15:11pm

#156 lizzy

I know. But don't cry. They'll pay for it eventually.

160 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:15:26pm

GARY FUCK OFF YOU SANCTIMONIUS ASSHOLE!

161 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:15:59pm

Model4 (#154), you are right about nuking mecca and the end results, but it would seem that dead islamofascists would be incapable of a continued fight. I would suggest that the killing would be massive (possibly on the order discussed by us on another thread).

162 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:16:36pm

lizzy (#156)

I am in absolute agreement with you. I hate it when they show 'photos like that on Yahoo!, etc. That is somebody's bobba or son or father or sister or mother... Leave the public displays of the dead to the savages. I have serious issues with those pictures.

163 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:16:55pm

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS JOURNALISTIC STANDARDS,, TO SHOW DEAD GRANDMAS ON A BUS, WITH THEIR HEADS BACK, WITH BLOOD COMING OUT OF THERE NOSE IS SENSATIONALISM,, GARY ARENT YOU HUMAN ENOUGH TO SE E IT? YOPU ARE AS BAD AS THE PALESTINEANS

164 steve miller  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:17:27pm

Yeah, well the dead grandmother (may she rest in peace, God bless her) shows what the Islamites want to do to every living thing that doesn't kiss their moon-god.

Tell me again how the Israelis are provoking this. I just can't see how some old lady riding on a bus on her way to work is the proximate cause of some splenetic splodeydope doing the big 86 on himself.

And how does blowing up old ladies show the beauty and majesty of the Islamite religion? I'm just not able to see it. Maybe I need to be poked in the eye or something.

Sheesh.

What a great line - where allah goes, blood flows.

165 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:18:12pm

im going to work now..

166 Charles  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:19:03pm

PLEASE NOTE my post #155. The same person also posted yesterday as "akhmedpalsy". Can anyone translate post #145?

167 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:19:21pm

#165 lizzy

Be careful, love. We need you .

168 Mitch Polka  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:19:25pm

#153 Gary Bruce
"And a lot of non-Jews feel the same way."

A lot more of us than you can imagine,GB.
And we are also a lot more pissed than Dubya knows.

169 Alon  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:19:29pm

To emphasize Charles' point in the last UPDATE, I have for a while now held the belief that the Palestinians have learned to adopt the image of the peacemaker. That is to say, up until now, the world recognized that Israel was willing to make concessions for peace (Rabin, Barak, and earlier). Now, under the guise of a moderate, peace-seeking Prime Minister, the Palestinians will tell the world they are willing to do anything for peace while realizing that Israel cannot agree with some of the facets of the Roadmap. The result, Israel will be deprived of its peacemaker-role in the world eyes, and the Palestinians will have more justification in the eyes of international public opinion to continue their campaign of mass terrorism.

Abu Mazen is no different than Arafat and he seeks no other goal than the destruction of Israel. The issue here is not the details the parties disagree upon, such as settlements, the "right" of return, etc. It is the simple fact that the Palestinians are not willing to recognize Israel as a political entity, and as such, will never seek a peaceful resolution.

If it is by force of arms that they will negotiate, it is by force of arms that they will be annhilated.

170 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:19:47pm

gary bruce (#153)

Shut up. Another time maybe, but lizzy is THERE, in Israel, and is very upset right now. Please, be a bit more sensitive would you?

171 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:21:02pm

#164 Steve Miller

You're welcome.

172 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:21:29pm

lizzy:

Does Charles have your e-mail address? I want to e-mail you. Look after yourself please. I'm thinking of you.

173 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:22:52pm

just witing till my kids come back hoem safley now... i can go out and nuke kill amim or anything elese to anybody,, i can just live the human side of this crap
all your theouries etc mean nothing to me,....
thta picture will huant me
please, these are my fellow citizens , country men neighbours etc... dont let there lives be cheapende .. all of this stuff you all say, doent take away from the fact that at least 7 familes will be in shocjka nd mournoing tonight as we all will,, so please dont preach to us

174 Robert KiP  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:22:55pm

#166:

searching for the first two words of that on Google suggests that it is German (or I am confusing Dutch for German)

Babelfish says that Kuss = Kiss in German.

I'll hand off the translation duties to somebody else.

175 tomcat  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:23:16pm

you can help save israeli lives! consider a donation to magen david adom. in the aftermath of a bombing, magen david adom is there when Israel needs it most. ... [Link: www.magendavidadom.com...]

176 alexbmn  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:24:10pm

yeah after every homicide bombing I also start screaming and cursing against the Israeli goverment and the people and everything. But I know that there are plenty of people in Israel who think like I do. But there arent enough of them. The majority "will do anything for peace". Even get blown up in buses I guess.But what really really kills me is that even 15 years ago a suicide bombing would result in Jenin being liquidated from the air. And what is happening now? Yeah there will be a seven hour raid into Gaza. They will destroy three houses kill maybe ten Pals. As if this will drive the point home. It needs to be 300 houses and 10000 Palestinians. They are trying to empty the nest by killing individual wasps.

177 Ariel  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:24:18pm

Charles #155, #166,

It has to do with orifices.

178 Alon  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:24:55pm

I notice that a number of people continue to ask why is it that so many politicians push Israel to continually make concessions.

It is quite simple. While there are Israelis and prominent Jewish leaders who continue to push for concessions and "peace" with the Palestinians, and who are only so glad to give up the Promised Land for a few more days without suicide bombings, there will be Int'l pressure on them to make these concessions a reality.
When the world will see that Israel is united and strong in its belief of its superiority over its enemies and of its destiny, then that pressure will rescind.

179 Robert  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:25:17pm

"There is no peace process, there is no roadmap, there is only Arab rejectionism and blind murderous hatred, and it's time to deal with it on their level and give them the war they want."

Mr. Johnson meet General Sherman.

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say give them all they want."

-General William T Sherman-

180 Wowbagger  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:25:21pm

I have to be honest here....

I can't think of any single outrage against Israel which would turn the world community around to understanding the necessity of the utter defeat of the Palestinians and Arabs in general. I predict now that if there even is a WMD which goes off in Israel at some point, the world will still scream holy hell about how how it is Israel's fault.

So why not just start throwing them out now? I mean, if there will never be a "straw that breaks their back", which will our straw be? I say that we've reached that straw a long time ago.

The only time I'd ever say that "something good" can come of this is if it ends in a carpet-bombing of Ramallah and Gaza. And then I'll be sure to dance in the street and burn a Palestinian flag just to show how culturally diverse I can be and respect the tradition of others.

181 really grumpy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:25:30pm

[Link: www.littlegreenfootballs.com...] Charles

Don't forget that Kuss Ukhtun/Triana Beller is also a teacher who has been agonizing over the duty of grading papers of her/his/creatures young charges, and a "former resident of Beirut" who had "family members murdered" during the combined occupation of Israel and Syria.

Can we say lying sack of shit? If you can't, I can.

See, I can use scare/sneer quotes too!

182 Charles  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:26:11pm

Yes, Lizzy -- please take care. My heart goes out to you. NC didn't mean to hurt, I'm sure. He's just full of rage, as are we all. We're on your side.

183 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:26:34pm

Charles,

I know "kuss" from the "Palestinians" but I'd prefer not to say how I've heard it used by them. Maybe Caton can translate?

184 Ariel  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:27:42pm

Charles, zulubaby: Yes, I was assuming that it was in Arabic as well.

185 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:27:42pm

yes zulu he does.
charles has my e- mail
sorry i didnt mean to curse,,, and my spelling got wonky
i saw those grandamas and strted crying like a baby... had to put on a show in front of the kids today this morningyes , .
i would love to hear form you,
thanks to you, paladin, and caton, for worrying.

186 nachtwacht  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:27:55pm

#137 NC

It's just like seeing those horrible concentration camp pictures again for the first time. Vision blurs.

187 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:29:09pm

thanks charles,
im sorry i lost it...
please excuse the langauge.
regards to all

188 TrueBob  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:29:35pm

155 Charles

ukhtun is referenced in the Quran --
[Link: www.islamic-awareness.org...]

In Arabic the word akhun or ukhtun carries two meanings.

Blood brother or sister and
Brotherhood/sisterhood in clan and faith.

In the verse referred to, the second meaning applies.

The German word Kuss (Kiss) and Ukhtun or Ikhtun may be a creepy message, as in the bombings are somehow a kiss from a clan brotherhood or brotherhood of faith.

There may be a more significant verse somewhere.

189 Alon  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:30:20pm

#180, I dont remember who said this, but..

"The Jews sought an equal place amongst the community of nations, yet they have become the Jew of the Nations."

(Paraphrasing)

190 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:30:42pm

My personal impression is that Israelis are angry. I don't really know where these Israelis you hear on the news speaking about peace with the allah-worshippers are coming from. Apparently it is liberal fascism taken to a whole new level where there is a genocide going on and the liberal fascist powers that be are intentionally preventing anyone from stopping it.

I can only hope that there is a military coup and the army is directed to aim its sight on the kibbutzim, allah-worshippers in Israel and the wicked allah-worshippers in the west bank. I mean in a situation where a majority of the population wants the allah-worshippers evicted I don't know how an army leader can say something like hold fire against them? The result at some point is going to be mass disobedience with soldiers taking it into their own hands to eliminate the allah-worshippers and leftists. faster please.

191 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:30:48pm

Bah. Just a hate message. zulubaby got it.

192 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:30:59pm
NC didn't mean to hurt, I'm sure.

No, I didn't, and I'm sorry if I did. And I'm not trying to exploit those people's deaths. I just approach it the same way Charles did with the photo in this post about the September 11th attacks: to make clear, better than any words can, how atrocious the attack was. I'm sorry if I didn't give enough warning about how graphic the photos were.

193 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:32:35pm

Charles,

I just sent you an e-mail with a link to "alternative" Arabic expressions.

194 darren  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:32:38pm

kuss: slang for vagina

195 Model4  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:36:32pm

#161: So, Kirk... we meet again. :) Enjoyed the posts, and akin to that discussion, there is absolutely no level of violence I won't support to put the murderers out of business. All I ask is that we first make a real attempt to go directly the murderers and their supporters with more conventional (but by no means light-handed) arms and tactics. If it takes wiping out every terrorist capitol city, so be it. If that doesn't work, every city with over 200k people, so be it. But first, shouldn't we go after Arafat, the leaders of Hamas, Hezbullah, IJ, Al Aksa, etc?

We've done jack squat in the scheme of things. Address the UN and tell the world that it is still unacceptable to practice, fund, encourage and harbor terrorists. Tell everyone, looking squarely at each EU leader in turn that this is exactly what's going on in Arafat's PLO, despite hundreds of "last chances" to reform. As of June 1st, any terrorist attacks from these groups will be an arrest warrant or death sentence for anyone involved, or anyone who wishes to stand by their sides.

Force the EUnichs and Cannucks into the open with their support for terrorism. And tell them "Fine, we'll regretfully but energetically meet you on the field of battle if this is your wish." Because accepting "just this one last bit of terrorism" has only brought us a consecutive and endless stream of "isolated incidents." Then turn to the Arab leaders and tell them they've had ample time to take their position on terror. Any links to any attacks traced back to them mean the pending end of their regime. If Kofi so much as opens his mouth, tell him to STFU and crawl back up Mugabe's ass. Then tell the assembly nothing will pass the SC for the rest of his term, however long that will be. Stick "veto" on the US ambassador's nameplate.

It really can end that easily. That it doesn't means that Sharon and Bush have a lot to answer for, if only someone has the balls to call them on it.

196 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:36:43pm

Caton, ja, I got it, and it ain't German.

lizzy, I'll e-mail you in a little while. I'm sure NC meant no harm, he's lovely, but I understand how hard those 'photos are for you to look at. I'm sending you a big hug.

197 AB  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:36:44pm

#145 Kuss Ukhtun

I thought you were nice and just wanted to learn. You disapoint me.

198 hun ordained rabbi  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:37:09pm

Charles-
it's a curse commonly used in Arabic-
kuss-or koos is the female organ-(my name is Yoni so I'm used to it)
ukht ,with the guttural kh (or ch) as in Chaver (friend in Hebrew) or the commonly known Chai (as in AM YISRAEL CHAI), means sister (Achot in Hebrew).
His phrase seems to refer to the plural third person- Ya'ani (in other words) Their Sister's Twat.
So, you see, I think he may be on Our Side.

199 Charles  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:37:53pm

Uh huh. I thought so, but wanted to make sure. That disgusting creature is now banned.

200 AB  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:40:46pm

Let #145 Kuss Ukhtun look at this forum.

I want him/her to know that I know he/she changed his name to give a hate message to us.

I was the one in conversation with him/her the other day. He/She was nice, very nice, but now I know it was a deceiving kind of nice. I can't believe I appologised for Israel to him/her.

201 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:41:30pm

188
it refers to a part of your sister's anatomy// its also said by israelis, being naughty.
variations are"k**S... emuch".. ...your mothers bits..
or to say the k**S bit three times, while waving your hand.

.............. i cannot concentrate right now on work...
nc, i wasnt angry at you,, i was angry at yahoos use of sensationalitic photographs,,, what s if that is sommeones daughter or son that sees that picture on yahho? it is completely immoral..
yahoo needs to understand thta we dont live in a video game, and those are real people with lives and loved ones, now lost forever.

202 mcgill Jordan  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:41:52pm

so does the IDF take american gentiles that can't speak a damn word of hebrew but can speak a bit of arabic? dammit....


Jordan

203 Paladin  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:42:30pm

Promised myself I'd go to be at #200.

Gotta get my beauty rest.

See you all bright and early--and I will STILL be pissed.

I promise.

204 AB  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:42:52pm

#202

Do you go to McGill U. or is that just your name?

205 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:43:31pm

problem is there are only 5 million Jews in Israel surounded by how many arabs? And globally over a billion muslims... what can Isreal really do, especially when george bush makes speeches that we are friends with the saudis and are teaming up with them to fight terrorism. I am truely afraid.

206 AB  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:43:53pm

#203 Paladin

Sorry about that. I will try to avoid posting around that number next time.

207 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:44:38pm

#138 lizzy,

Thank you for the offer. We have everything taken care of. I'm glad that you are ok, but it bothers me to see you so upset. I'm sorry I can't offer you anything but my concern.

#142 Caton,

Yea, tensions are high tonight. I don't want to try to figure out the sickness and motive of the Arab mind. It's so out of our individual hands, and it's frustrating for everyone to watch this cr*p play out in the long, slow, go-nowhere, dance of death fashion that it's going. More and more, I fear that NC is right, and the tought of seeing mass Israeli death is more than I have the ability to think about now.

#155 Charles,

Thank you for bringing to our attention another sicko who is willing to rub salt into open wounds.
------------------------------------------------

I was offered a trip to Israel in June/July recently, which I have been considering refusing for expense reasons. However, the more this continues, the more I feel I have to go... to show solidarity, put some money in the Israeli system, and to show the murdering Arabs that the more they hit, the more we will stick together and the stronger we will become.

208 NC  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:45:01pm

The filth at Nazimedia are ripping on Charles and LGF, and are claiming that the fact that the bomber was dressed as a religious Jew (see #148) means that an Israeli, not a Muslim, was behind this.

209 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:45:12pm

paldin
good night love,
ve chalomot paz
thanks for the concern before.

210 RF  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:48:07pm

If there's one thing to say, it's this: we must not lose our composure. The latest wave of terrorist attacks, from the Chechen rebels to the cotninued Baathist attacks in Iraq to Saudi Arabia to Morocco to Israel seem overwhelming. That is what terrorism is supposed to do. If it doesn't spread terror, they aren't succeeding. Right now they are succeeding.

We need to respond without losing our equanimity.

First, we need to analyze what is going on. Al Qaeda is clearly coordinating attacks in Saudi Arabia and Morocco. The question is whether the coordination is deeper than that. To wit, is Al Qaeda acting in or as if in alliance with Palestinian Arab terrorist groups?

Secondly, is this a showing of strength from a reinvigorated Al Qaeda, after a long time with only a few attacks? (The Bali attack was a significant but isolated incident.) Or is this a bluff? A bluff could be motivated by a need to attract new recruits or perhaps by something else. I can't figure out why Al Qaeda would want to make it seem that they had more potency than they actually had now. If they were not ready to inflict more strikes, they would likely not want to draw more attention to themselves. The conclusion is that we are likely facing a fully reinvigorated Al Qaeda. Articles in Sunday's Washington Post claim that Al Qaeda has new leadership.

Third, look at this in terms of American priorities. Rove doesn't want this to be a major story right now. He wants Bush to be able to focus on domestic issues until November 2004. Thus, Bush probably won't make a big stink about this if the attacks are low level, infrequent, and do not strike American interests, especially not inside the US. This does, however, present the Democrats with a huge opportunity to attack Bush with two prongs: first on the economy and second on an alleged failure in the war on terrorism.

Fourth, the real question is whether Bush will succeed in his plan to keep the Arab-Israeli conflict separate from the wider war on terrorism.

Fifth, the best Israeli strategy right now is to use these terrorist attacks to win international PR victories. Much of the world is biased toward the Palestinians. The Israelis should make the following points: that the terrorists are bloodthirsty killers who have taken the lives of innocent and sympathetic people; that the terrorists are not attacking the Palestinian authority despite its supposedly strong stance against terrorists; and the Palesinian authority is not living up to its end of the bargain in the roadmap for peace, which is heavily biased in favor of the Palestinians anyway.

The Israelis must expose the Palestinian Arab claims on property inside Israel as the sham they are. The Israelis must expose the "Palestinian people" as the inauthentic nationality it is. The Israelis must expose the Palestinian Arabs for their tergivsation: at one point the Palestinian Arabs say that all of the land west of the Jordan belongs to the Palestinian people, at the other point they say they want a 2-state solution west of the Jordan. Expose the lies. The truth will set you free. Go Israel.

211 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:48:57pm

Paladin (#203)

See you all bright and early--and I will STILL be pissed.

Hopefully not still with me. Rest easy. 'Night.

212 Donna V.  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:49:15pm

Caton, you wrote:

Would you support shelling ALL Pali 'refugee camps' with chemical weapons, AND detonating a nuke over each Arab capital, plus Mecca, then just to be sure put ricin in the water supply of all Pali towns?

Jeez, isn't there an "excluded middle" here? I'm for Israelis taking harsher measures than they have in dealing with the Pals. Roadblocks, curfews, and bulldozing houses sound mild to me when I consider the barbarities of the Palis. I would like to see Yassir's head on a pike. Chemical weapons, nukes, ricin - I'm thinking a lot can be done before it gets to that point.

If it does get to that point, well, God help me, but my compassion meter re: the Palis dropped to -100,000 on 9/11 and has continued to fall ever since.

I really and truly hate these vile genocide bombers and those who cheer them on and excuse them. And, unlike Arabs and Nazis, I am not a person who derives pleasure or self-esteem or pride from the act of hating.

Lizzy: I am very happy you are O.K.

213 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:49:15pm

Lizzy, those pictures are necessary, all yahoo and every other media outlet has are photos of the poor suffering pals. Hardly ever see pictures of what their evil results in.

214 Model4  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:49:16pm

"What can Israel really do?" C'mon Teacake, it's not an arm-wrestling tourney. Think of twelve men armed with knives advancing on you with a revolver in your hand. You blow the head off the closest one, then say "Any other heroes?" They still advance, you blow the head off the second one. At that point they scatter, head for the hills, and vow to never mess with you again.

Plan B, standing there while they slowly stab you to death, all the while seeking more and better weapons of their own, is suicide.

215 AB  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:49:52pm

#210 RF

Dude, you don't have to worry about me. I only get stronger from this. VERY strong.

216 hun ordained rabbi  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:51:08pm

Chaverim of Am Yisrael, despair not.
The days of The Counting are not easy-but the way the Holydays have been so reflected in events of late-( a Bayamin Hahem Bazman Hazeh sort of thing ) - we might as well gather wood for the Big Fire and anticipate quite a Revalation come Shavuot and that's,what, just over two weeks from now.
The celebration of The Giving of The Law.
It will be laid down.
Tuesday Night.
Light those fires.

217 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:51:27pm

PDM (#207)

Go. It will be the best experience of your life. Just go.

218 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:51:36pm

thansk pdm

ive clamed down a bit.. one more cofee and ill try to work..
i thinks its lovely you want to come here,, belive it ,we appreciate it!
if i can give you any advice etc, id be happy too.
israel, for all these horrible things , is still a fantastic place, and only a few of us say" k***s achtoch".. lol
and thats when betar jerusalem loses , etc.
there is a progarm called taglit i see advertised on the post, which offers a free trip , for students.. i saw a bus loas of kids about a week ago near moutn herzel and they looked like they were having a ball.
if you come, id love to have you come for dinner andmeet my family, and our 2 bunnies, two cocaktiels and two budgies, in our teeny weeny flat in jerusalem... please feel free to take a bunny home with you.
ko l tuv!

219 Kirk  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:55:18pm

Model4 (195), so a heavy ground assault (tanks included)with air-cover provided by an AC-130 gunship? Rather conventional, but very, very, heavy handed. Has to be done at night so am making the assumption that the IDF has good NVG (night vision goggles).

As to the countries that actively support/permit the import of terrorists I agree with you. We've got to put a halt to this terrorism once and for all. Sure as hell of getting tired of the 10 here, 2 there, 3000 there, etc. in regards to casualties. The US State Department needs to drop the "Islam is our friend" horse shit. Bush also needs to drop "Islam is our friend" crap as well. It doesn't play well with dead and dying civilians. I will leave the comments on Israeli politics and politicians to Israelis.

220 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:56:24pm

Model4... Israel can't do anything because the whole of the world will then finsh off the job once and for all.

221 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:56:39pm

teacake,,
you diddnt see my ppoint
the reason you dont show dead people like that , , is becuase their families might see it!
peopel they know might see it
elohim adirim, i cant take seeing them...
if it was your neigbour lying dead ina bus, would you want to see it?

i think its yellow journalism, at its best,
de- humanifying dead people at its worse
i dont care what the palestineans do with their photos.

222 hun ordained rabbi  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:58:12pm

Moday night.

223 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:58:56pm


sorry teacake, im very emotional today 9 am , work ! now im going!

224 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 8:58:59pm

#212 Donna V.

You're right -- riicin in the water supply would make 75% casualties. You might note that while the Israeli water system is secured and protected, the Palis don't take the same kind of protective measures for theirs. How lucky they are that there's no Jewish terrorist.

225 Teacake  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:03:08pm

don't appologized to me Lizzy!!!! No reason for that. I appologize to you for further upsetting you.

226 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:08:09pm

As Fox just mentioned, nobody has claimed this yet.

NC (#208)

I'm afraid to click on that link because I'm so angry right now. Leave it to NaziMedia, eh? (I'm trying not to swear, but you know I want to).

227 cosmicview  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:08:41pm

Why is the media not embarrassed as hell for the way they present the entire conflict?

The media will white wash this criminality once again, making it safe for murderers to continue their goal of our extermination. Until the media plays this as the barbaric atrocities that it is, psycho killer Muslims will continue to receive support from the blind left and the Europecker Jew haters.
For every expression of anger and pain, write or call the media bastards whose desire to sell papers and appear politically correct allows this barbarism to continue. That is where we can begin to make a difference.
Bless Israel

228 The Law Student  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:08:48pm

Charles and everyone else,
Noone seems to be following this but there are general elections in Belgium tomorrow. The Telegraph is reporting that the leading Flemish party (apparently Belgium is composed of the Flemish (good) and the French (bad)) led by Mr. Dewinter is of the opinion that "The chief threat to the world now is radical Islam. They were taught a lesson by the Iraq war that they must take the West seriously. They thought we were very soft and tolerant. Also "He wants to carve out an independent Flemish state which he says should be aligned with the "Anglo-Saxon world".


The truth is that nowadays you don't have to even research a candidate to see if he's good or not. Just listen to the BBC. For example if you here "In a shocking win for the far right fascist party in Belgium today the widely unpopular Dewinter has won. To analyze this suprise upset upset we turn to... My rule of thumb is that if the Beeb thinks it's bad, it's undoubtedly very good, and if the beeb thinks it's bad be very very worried.

229 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:09:28pm

#217 zulubaby,

I will if it is possible. I have a wife and a son (that I stay home with during the day) to consider. If the bills are paid, and day care is arranged, I will probably go.

#218 lizzy,

Please email me. I will stay in contact, and would love to visit if I get there. The offer I received came from the administrator of the web site called askmoses.com. He is my local rabbi, and a good friend. I will follow up with him this week on the matter, and see if I can make it happen.
Please, no bunnies.

230 Ben  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:09:43pm

HF says we shouldn't lose our composure. That's hilarious. War kicks ass. The Palastinians want it. Let's give it to them. When there aren't any Palastinians left there won't be a problem. They don't understand any language but violence. Let's start the "dialouge".

231 Outsider  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:10:02pm

#134 - Gary Bruce

why do you think Sharon is afraid of waging war, even though he's been given a mandate to do so?

(I don't agree as of now, but it was right in the past)

It's a long story, but Sharon was defense minister during operation "peace for galilee" which became the bloody Lebanon war.
This war was the first Israeli war that was not in unanimous concensus among Israelies.
It doesn't help that it was such a bloody problematic war, and that he was blamed for the phalangists' massacre of Sabra & Shatila, as well as the common rumor that he was lying to the PM about the depth of the Israeli invasion.
The reprecussions to this were grave - he was sent to the political desert for the past 20 years. He only returned when palestinian violence became unbareable, and Israeli public craved for a strong hand against palestinians.

This time, Sharon learned the key to Israeli politics - "concensus". He is currently obsessed about his position within "concensus", which would explain how he waited so long before going on operation "Defensive Shield" - more than 400 people had died until he acted.
Keep in mind this is also his last term as PM and he wishes to create his own legacy as a man of peace, prefferably by achieving a peace accord with the palestinians. This will also enable him to clean his name of the Sabra & Shatila massacres.

Achieving concensus among Israelies is difficult,
or as the common joke says (loosly translated): "Ask two jews about something and you have seven different opinions". As of now there are approx. 20% of Israelies who are militant leftists, whose hobby is chanting "Sharon is a murderer", I suspect they get to him.

232 Gary  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:15:57pm

Charles said it for me

I'm so full of rage right now I probably shouldn't be writing.

I hope I`m not over stepping on this but can someone respond to this coment on this Australian blog.

I can't see the Road Map leading to any real peace when the Israeli regime is so determined to kill innocent bystanders.
233 ruth  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:18:29pm

So isn't it plain to now see that Palistine is just another Afganistan; a terrorist haven that threatens the world? I want to help Israel--send in the Marines.

234 Jewels (aka Julian)  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:22:26pm

OT: Germany Taxes Sex

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

235 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:23:40pm

im back again,, I cant draw this morning..
whenever we have one of these" pigua" days, when everything is on its head, and you dread it when they start telling you the names of evryone who died, and announcing their funerals, when the radio plays " quiet music", and you can only breath a sigh of releif when all members of the house are home and accounted for, and you find yourslef giving them more hugs than usual, i look at this site.. i think david is the author, and i got it form lgf a while ago..
[Link: www.newsoftheday.com...]
its soul food for hard times,to remind us of our humanity.

236 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:26:25pm

#235 lizzy

Sunday's the week-end here, so I put a tape with Tex Avery cartoons and I'm watching it with the kids.

Wile E. Coyote is having a hard time right now :-)

237 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:29:02pm

caton. lol!
love it

238 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:29:07pm

#208 NC,

The link to that sinkhole isn't even opening right now. Just as well.

239 JACK  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:29:34pm

its time for mass deportation from gaza to west bank. JUST DO IT, FUCK THE OUTCRY. NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, THERE WILL BE OUTCRY.

240 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:32:15pm

Bill Jefferson (#126)

Or we can just call them what they really are: Psychotic Mass Murderers. Bastards!

241 lizzy  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:32:22pm

i posted the site
[Link: www.newsoftheday.com...]
on the "jango club ", a local yahoo club for jerusalemites, and 3 people wrote today alone to say how good it made them feel...
charles , if you see david posting , tell him what a great job he did raising the local moral!!!

242 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:33:54pm

PDM (#208)

I couldn't get onto NaziMedia either (blessing in disguise).

243 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:42:37pm

PDM, zulubaby,

You just answered my question before I asked it. I thought they'd banned me again. Or blocked LGF referrers. I can't get into SF Indy either, BTW. Portland works though. Wonder if someone's putting a DOS hurt on 'em. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of twerps.

:^/

244 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:43:14pm

#242 zulubaby,

(blessing in disguise)

Perhaps so, but I want in. I have steam to blow off.
from NC:

The filth at Nazimedia are ripping on Charles and LGF, and are claiming that the fact that the bomber was dressed as a religious Jew (see #148) means that an Israeli, not a Muslim, was behind this.

This makes me so sick! No wonder one of the Indymedia logos is computer user smashing his/her head against the keyboard.

245 Jewels (aka Julian)  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:43:51pm

Really OT: Geraldo Rivera blogsite. Nooooooooooooo

[Link: www.roughpoint.tv...]

246 Photios  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:45:53pm

My friends zulubaby, Donna V, mommydoc, PDM;
Caton, lizzy, and everyone.

I don't know what to say. I am angry beyond measure.

The time for war came some time ago. I wish that Israel would fight it. The world would scream, but, with the exception of the US, the entire world is against Israel anyway. She has nothing to lose, and peace at the end of the war to gain.

This is another case where peace is possible only through war.

Let there be war.

247 AB  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:54:19pm

Oh great, now Indymedia is gonna use this as proof that we are warmongers.

248 Moe Katz  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:57:40pm

Join the boycott:

Especially for our Angelenos and Angelenas
And rate the major TV news anchors ...

249 Photios  Sat, May 17, 2003 9:58:47pm

AB
Let them. Why should we care what those idiots think? No one respects them and they have no effect on the body politic. The country is becoming more conservative. That the left is becoming louder does not mean that they are becoming more influencial. They are not.

250 darren  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:00:11pm

perhaps, just perhaps, we can take this at face value? i think we can all use a little hope that out of all this senseless murder there is still something salvagable. Let's put our anger and emotions and skepticism aside, just for a moment, and at least try to believe that such hope exists. Just for a moment, let us imagine a common ground.

251 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:00:16pm

#247 AB

See #151

252 Donna V.  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:02:40pm

Caton: yeah, the Palis have an unprotected water supply because they know damn well the "oppressive, racist" Israelis would never spike their water with ricin, whereas the Israelis know the Palis would do it if they could, never mind how many Israeli Arabs also would die.

And if a Jewish terrorist did put ricin in the Pali water supply, you know that the EU and the Left would immediately blame all Israelis and their government. Anne Frank wrote (and I'm paraphrasing) that what one Christian does is his own business; what one Jew does somehow reflects on all Jews. The same is true of the Arabs and the Jews today. The left closes its eyes to countless acts of terror on the part of the Palis; but feels free to bring up the King David Hotel bombing and Goldstein as somehow representative of the entire Jewish state.

The unfairness makes me sick. I'm going to bed now with a heavy heart. It's almost 2 a.m. here.

253 PDM  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:02:53pm

#246 Photios,

What gets me is that we see this cycle repeatedly.
The story is always the same with a different date and bus number.

As I mentioned to Caton above, my frustration (and probably that of many others) comes from being limited to the position of spectator. I send money; buy products, stay informed, and whatever else. However, I still feel inactive and ineffective.
I say let there be war too, but have no authority (obviously) and on that level, can do nothing to make any change other that my own seemingly insignificant part.

254 darren  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:03:00pm

and before anyone links to it, please, allow me: the horrible other side of the coin.

255 Craig  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:03:01pm

I don't expect the Israelis to unleash a full scale military action any time soon. Just look at the heat they get for the limited responses they've undertaken so far.

Their hands are tied by a dependence on U.S. military hardware and trade with Europe. While the U.S. arms would likely continue to flow, they'd risk getting hit with crippling economic sanctions by the EU if they hit back hard enough to really discourage the Arabs from continuing the low intensity (terror) war they've been waging.

256 zulubaby  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:03:32pm

PDM, I just noticed that I wrote #208 which was of course NC's post instead of #238 which is the post that I was responding to. But you knew that.

Spiny Norman, I'm not convinced that reading the filth on Indymedia (any branch) is the best thing for me to do right now, but I do want to see what they've posted about Charles and LGF and all their other lies, Jew-hating scum bastards that they are.

Photios, thank you for your love and support. I hope you know how much it is appreciated. Israel keeps trying to get the world to love her, but she never seems to be good enough, so yes, let the haters scream and rant and carry on because they will do so whether Israel does destroy the Palestinians or doesn't. I don't want war, I go numb at the thought, but it looks like it is necessary.

Jewels (#245)

That is just so wrong, on so many levels. I'm laughing at the ALL CAPS 'cos that's how he speaks too ;-)

257 quark2  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:04:10pm

Have any of you been keeping up with the socalled Palestinian civilians in Iraq and Lebanon? They are being stripped of all rights, their homes and sent packing....now where do you think they will end up? Once again the shtupidios paleos don't get it...they aren't wanted and just the scape goat for the rest of the arabs to jump on Isreal...I would be willing to bet if the state of Isreal was to disolve for what ever reason, that the Palestinians will be next for 'resolution'.

258 ronnie  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:06:22pm

Basically, not much to add - some of you have said your insights, others have released their frustations... it's been a prety sad past 48 hours. My prayers are with the victms' families and friends.

Now it's time to sip some whisky (a la Winston) and take some hard decisions. Arik should definitely destroy Arafat's compound, no matter what is the deathtoll. Yasser should be captured and imprisioned/ or at worst exiled. If he dies during the mission, he wll become a martyr, but so be it (he won't die fighting for sure if one believes Pacepa). But that HQ that Arafish is in is definitely a nest for terrorist operatives, so it should be destroyed. Simultaneously, Hamas should be wiped out by cutting off its few remaining heads (Rantissi included). These two are just baby steps, but represent some of the tough decisions that Sharon wll have to take if he is willing to do what he says (i.e. apply the lessons from history - if he taks about Israel today not being like Czechoslovakia in 1938, it's time for him to apply a bit of Churchill's medicine).

As for Dubya, he will remain pro-Israel, despite what he or his people wll say...

259 Jewels (aka Julian)  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:07:20pm

After reading the previous posts, I gave a small prayer to Baron Samadi to give wrath to these swine in the next world. My level of disgust knows no bounds

260 rockman  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:10:08pm

The spirit of this age is madness. Islamic inspired maddness. There seems to be an inexhorable logic in this thread leading to a winner-takes-all war in the ME. Either the Arabs will succeed in their quest to destroy Israel or the low-grade war will continue until Israel wins a decisive victory. The Arabs seem to have excluded (long ago for anyone paying attention) any middle ground involving a two state "solution". It becomes clearer every day. I'm horrified and disgusted by the recent attacks. I really think thr Arab Muslims will eventually have to be shocked out of this miserable pattern of behavior as the Japanese were shocked into surrendering in 1945. G-d help us.

261 Caton  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:10:27pm

#252 Donna V.

Bah, the E.U. and the left would seethe and whine, but more than 75% of the problem would be solved...

262 Jheka  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:16:10pm

Wel, my family is ok. But I know that time is against Israel and the Jews. There are just too few Jews in Israel (and around the world) and the massive disparity is growing every day. Eventually, Israel will drown in the Arab sea. Unless Israel fights it will die. It's simply a question of time and numbers. The Arabs know this and the Jews refuse to see it. Every day that passes without total war against those that would destroy it is a day that Israel's position is weakened. The whole country is becoming Masada and the end will be the same.

I don't know if Israel can defeat its enemies. I do know that it will be defeated if it doesn't try to.

263 its jake  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:21:05pm

Dear Honorable President Bush:

Please send 90,000 passenger buses to Israel to immediately transfer all of the Palestinians into Jordan.

Sincerely,

Every Republican in America

264 Spiny Norman  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:28:36pm

zulubaby,

Understood. Take care.

265 rockman  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:40:27pm

my bourbon goggles are foggy, which led to several missspellings above

266 JimC  Sat, May 17, 2003 10:51:10pm

The first of the three great shrines of Islam is the Ka'bah at Mecca, Saudi Arabia. For Muslims, this mosque is the holiest spot on Earth. All Muslims pray in the direction of the Ka'bah, and during Hajj, or pilgrimage, Muslims circumambulate the Ka'bah.

I have been told that muslims also think that the Ka'bah can never be destroyed. If a small nuke took it out I wonder what the muslims would think then? Perhaps alot of the koran isnt true?

I also don't agree with the view that the majority of muslims don't condone the violence. Until I see large and I mean large demonstrations in the streets of the middle east of followers of mohammed protesting the terrorism, then I think the do condone it.

The muslim street needs to fear the west. I mean we should use Old Testament type violence on them. They should fear us as if we were the right hand of
G-d smacking them with righteous fury. We should smack them so hard that muslim mothers will whisper to their childern for generations that religious violence leads to death.

267 Gil Ronen  Sat, May 17, 2003 11:14:38pm

I think all this rage is healthy and sane and good, but it needs to be channeled into a realistic plan of action. One of the posters asked why Israelis aren't angry: that's precisely the problem. The answer has to do with 77 generations' worth of diaspora-Jew conditioning, and also with a very strong leftist-feminist (hey - even Margaret Thatcher made that connection in the recent speech that Charles linked here) brainwashing campaign against all forms of violence by men, a campaign that has been going on here for the past 15-20 years, that has rendered this nation's men incapable of bonding in men's groups, incapable of thinking the way men naturally think and act in these situations, incapable of anger.

The media here is almost completely dominated by a cadre of unbelieveably arrogant radical leftist-feminists, who simply refuse to do what any semi-sane media elite should be doing in a situation like this: be very somber, very angry, and call the people to arms. Instead, they keep on interviewing the various Abu-Mazens, and keep on writing about the usual decadent garbage - celebrity gossip, TV ratings, fine cuisine, blah blah - the same way they always do, even as they are reporting the latest atrocity. It's hard to get angry like that: the media keeps on throwing us into a cold shower; it never lets us get it up. And there is no alternative media.

The Holocaust - and intense Zionist ideology - brought out the fighter in us Jews in the early decades of this country's independence, but 2,000 years' worth of shtetl mentality aren't gotten rid of in one generation, or even three. Just like Glenn Close springing up from the bathtub in Fatal Attraction - the spirit of Good-Jewish-Boy, of the Piano-Playing-Momma's-Boy, of the Doctor-or-Lawyer-but-Never-Anything-Wild-or-Free-J ew, of the Never-Ever-Be-Angry-With-Your-Mother-Because-She-W ill-Die-Jew - that spirit is springing up for one last gasp. That spirit is our enemy.

Anger is right. Blood will be shed. But it has to be done right, because we want to get somewhere. We have a Plan. Or at least - I do.

The first thing we need is a drama. That is why I want us to do Megiddo House. I (once again) ask that people look at this, and read this for some background. This is practicable and it will involve use of force, but in a smart way.

268 wordwarp  Sat, May 17, 2003 11:18:19pm

Caton -

What you write here is forever stuck to Charles and his blogs' reputation.

269 Jewels (aka Julian)  Sat, May 17, 2003 11:21:22pm


#267 Gil Ronen

Either you're a troll or you need to decaffinate. Either way, your plan, while a bit florid, may have some merit. I long for the days of Eward R Murrow. But we get stuck with Geraldo. Bah
But I must admit Machiavelli begins to look attractive at this point....

270 Gil Ronen  Sat, May 17, 2003 11:39:26pm

Look. This is Maariv's front page. Maariv is considered right-wing. The top right item is about the bus. Then there are items about the national strike and Sharon calling off his trip to meet Bush.

The next three items, just under the top news items, are about last night's attack in Hebron, a Spanish team wanting a certain Israeli soccer player, and a recipe competition called 'the chef comes to your home', respectively.

At the bottom of the screenshot are links to articles by Maariv's senior political correspondent, Ben Kaspit, about the meeting between Sharon and Abu Mazen: 'a historical landmark' is the caption for one of them. The other has details of an offer supposedly made by Sharon to Abu Mazen.

This is the crap we see, instead of just devoting the whole front page to the terror attacks and LGFist rants against the Pals and Arabs, which is the minimum I'd expect from a patriotic Israeli website.

271 Gil Ronen  Sat, May 17, 2003 11:56:02pm

This, on the other hand, is Ynet - the number one news site in Israel.

The top item is the bombing, but there is no mention anywhere on the front page of yesterday's murder of a Jewish couple in Hebron, though their identities were only released for publication this morning.

The news flash on the right is a quotation from Meretz MK Zeheva Galon, a hyperfeminist pro-Palestinian whiner, who complains that the US is not making a serious effort to force Israel to comply with the roadmap.

The next large item is a long rant by Sheikh Raed Salah of Umm El Fahem and by his supporters, complaining about his arrest (for funneling funds to the Hamas). Then there is something about the strike.

272 therien  Sat, May 17, 2003 11:58:43pm

Count me in. As Tom Schultz says: "Everything burns if you heat it hot enough." Paleosimians seem more incandescent than others. Burn, baby, burn.

273 Gil Ronen  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:06:25am

The US has 50 times as many people as Israel. 7 people killed, for us, is like 350 people killed for you. If there had been a terror attack killing 350 Americans at 5:45 am - would the top news sites be devoting any of their first ten items to recipe competitions, at 11:00 am? Or to rambling political rants by the imam of a Manhattan mosque and his followers?

Ynet's front page also prominently features a quotation from one of its readers' fora: "I wonder sometimes - is there such a thing as true love, devoid of selfish interests?"

274 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:35:43am

Gil Ronen

Yeah, its shocking when you put it like that. What's worse is that, proportionally, 40,000 Americans would have been killed since the Stupifada began.

-------------------------------------------------- --------------

Is there an English-based IDF unit? If not, there should be.

275 Gil Ronen  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:03:19am

Colt:

There are a lot of English speakers in the IDF Spokesman's Unit. But the army, and the government - they're all these ossified (did I use that right?) bureaucracies. Nothing will come of the army, or the government. There needs to be a revolution, a change in the Israeli psyche, and we need a new, young media/political leadership to effect that.

The US has undergone great change in the past 2½ years - not just in government, but in the media, too. Israel needs to undergo an upheaval, too. Sharon's election is just the first step - but it's not enough. He's old and he won't do anything radical unless the majority of the population supports him. As long as the media is against him, he will continue to ramble about 'painful concessions', instead of making sure the Arabs are the ones who feel the pain.

276 Bleeding heart conservative  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:11:04am

#252 Donna

You bring up a significant inconsistency-- collective guilt... Somehow all of Israel is responsible for every accidental collateral death, but all of Palestine is not held responsible for even hundreds of intentional murders? Somehow the population of US is responsible for all the suffering of the Arab world, but Islam is not responsible for Al Qaeda?

I see the same type of inconsistency in leftist pontificating... sometimes "Bush" did this, sometimes America did that. Sometimes "We" did this, sometimes, the "Administration" did that.

I suppose Gnome Chomsky would call it a selective lexical construction.

277 Johan Wehtje  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:23:37am

I have watched 3 news bulletins amd heard 2 radio Broadcasts on this outrage - and without exception - all of them repeated without comment the official Palestinian line that they cannot stop the terror until Israel accepts/signs onto the "Roadmap".

These were all mainstream broadcasters, in Australia- and they are typical of the reaction of most of the worlds media.

How on earth can we combat such wilful self delusion on such a massive scale? How is it possible for lies so stupendous and self evident to be repeated so widely without comment?

Within hours the Iraeli's will respond - and this response will be treated as "a blow to hopes for peace" and morally equivalent to the attacks which provoked it - or even worse will taken out of context all together and instead be treated as if it provides the justification for future Palestinian attacks.

Time for the charade to stop - time to state the simple truth - the Palestinians have been offered peace time and time again, they are being offered a state, their land , and a future where propserity could follow peace. They have chosen War on every occasion. Time for the Israeli's to oblige them. Time for Bush to say that despite his and others best efforts the Palestinian's have rejected peace one too many times and he now washes his hands of any responsibility for their fate - and they will now face the terrible consequences of their choices.

278 Jim Bob  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:30:44am

Keep eye on ball.

The "roadmap" is endorsed by the U.S., the U.N., the E.U. and Russia.

Marginalization of the radicals who deal in homicide bombing is happening and deepens with every attack.

Soon the road will be obvious and no map needed. We will be able to mobilize the forces required to go after the radicals in Palestine, Lebanon and Syria.

Every explosion cuts more ground from beneath the political opposition in the U.S., U.N., E.U. and Russa.

It's not quite pay-back time but we're getting close.

279 NTropy  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:46:43am

I hate the feelings these creatures make me feel. I hate feeling hate. I hate feeling so completely helpless. I hate feeling a murderous rage arise at the complete injustice and brainlessness of this sort of thing. I hate that Israeli families will have to bury their dead thanks to a religion actively encourages mass murder. Islam is a Satanic blood cult, no more, no less.

#208 NC

I followed this for quite a while tonight. I checked a long time ago for their first venomous volley. I finally got back here to see it.

Bible Thumper that I am, I also know that this seems to follow prophesy in Ezekiel 36-38 or thereabouts. Thank God He will serve up great retribution. I wish - no, pray - that it comes soon.

280 steve miller  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:47:26am

I am *not* trying to trivialize this - but this is like Charlie Brown and Lucy and the football.

WHY does anyone in Israel believe ANYTHING the Islamites say to them? How many people have to die on buses while going to work or school for Israel to wake up to the fact that the Islamites DO NOT WANT accomodation or peace? These Islamofascists want Israel DEAD.

What's wrong with this world?

You don't negotiate with terrorists. You don't accomodate them. You don't let them alone. Before they kill you and your wife and your mother-in-law and your children - you eliminate them.

And Charles, thanks for banning that moral idiot, Triana Matata or whatever she was.

Photios - glad to see you're back.

281 David2  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:58:54am

It's still a fake war. Everything about this is fake. The peace process included. It's as if, during WWII, we went to war with the Axis and decided we would deal with Japan "later" while they took possession of Pacific Islands. And we didn't even mention Italy. But we invaded Germany, went to Berlin and then our soldiers sat around handing out food. So there is a war raging but we are not really fighting it. Apparently we want to give the Iranians and Syrians and the N.Koreans more time to perfect their response. If you are being stung by swarms of bees you need to find the bees nest and destroy it. We are just killing bees. The nest is right up under the roof and we pretend we don't see it. No wonder this war is going to take ""years" or "decades". I can't imagine Harry Truman saying this to America. Because he didn't believe in BS. And this is truly BS.

282 Clio  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:00:17am

Re No. 98

Maybe I am getting this in too late for you to see it, but anyway --

Your girl friend, like many people, reflects the feelings and views of her own circle and associates. That is quite natural, because people of similar views tend to congregate together. And also to read the news sources and commentaries that agree with them.

My own report from here in Israel would be quite different -- but would also to an extent be based on the feelings and reactions of my own circle --

WHO ARE NOT WORN OUT AND READY TO GIVE UP -- NOT BY ANY MEANS.

283 Wild Justice  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:12:07am

7:15am here on the East Coast.

First thing I did this morning was check LGF and read all 250+ posts in tears.

I look outside the window. Gorgeous sky, emerald trees everywhere in sight.

My little boy is in the next room playing with his toys. My wife is still sleeping in bed.

I am so angry, I can't even tell you.

284 MacBeth  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:19:36am
285 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:22:27am

Gil Ronen

Thanks for the info. It'd be great to work in the Spokesperson unit, write some speeches, change the tone a little.

For now, though, I'd just want to hurt some Palestinian terrorists.

(take into account British understatement when reading "hurt")

286 centaur  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:30:22am

Flatten the the Pali-terror nests in the West Bank & Gaza. Expell the Palis. Fellow Arabs are doing it to Palis in other parts of the Mid-East (and have done so before), and the whining hypocritical terror-enabling lefties don't say anything --- so let them scream all they want. Just do it.

287 jenbr  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:31:00am

I am outraged, feel violated, I am hurting, crying feeling a great pain in my heart
BUT
NEVER ever will we lose the will to live or the hope of the future!

sh'hashem yakom et damam.


May this bomber rot in 'martyr' hell.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

288 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:39:47am

#284 MacBeth,

Bardot, 68, a former screen siren and animal rights campaigner, was convicted in 1997 and 2000 of inciting racial violence after she criticized in print the Muslim practice of slaughtering sheep.

Yes, one of the great way to incite violence among Muslims is to criticize the way they slaughter sheep.
That's as bad as telling them they don't kill their wives properly.

289 Moe Katz  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:50:17am

I can't imagine that Bardot is a great defender of shechita, either.

290 Peter  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:52:21am

I have said it and say it again:

1. Expel the arabs from the West bank and Gaza. Annex the areas.

2. Do not dilute Western freedoms in the fight against terrorism. Expel the illegals from the West ; expel Muslims in general and Arabs in particular.

3. What to do with our homegrown enemy, socialists and multiculturalists is the hardest problem. I have presented some ideas earlier, but I am well aware that the implemetations is not easy.

291 Ben F  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:54:30am

So I wake up and I take a look at the Haaretz website, and they are still running the editorial that they had written before the Sharon-Abu Mazen meeting and the two bus bombings.

You know, the one that draws a moral equivalence between Arafat's "murderous terror attacks [sic] against Israel" and Sharon's posture on settlements (his belief, that is, that no portion of Eretz Israel should be Judenrein, a notion that is anathema to Haaretz, though it is not clear whether Haaretz favors ethnic cleansing for its own sake or merely because Israel's peace-loving neighbors insist upon it).

And I turn on CNN HN and hear that both Israeli and Palestinian leaders condemned the bombings. But what are the Pals saying? Why can't I find anything on any American or Israeli sites? OK, how about Palestinian sites? Got it. Here and here.

The Palestinian leadership, which voiced its willingness to take all necessary wide-spread security steps, urged the Israeli side to put a halt to its persistent raids and onslaughts, which have targeted our people, land and religious sites and have completely paralyzed our security apparatus.

We condemn the violence, and call upon the bloodthirsty Zionist monsters to stop already so that we can discuss peace.

I love the internet.

I hate the media.

Charles, thank you for this forum.

292 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:57:45am
293 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:58:34am

#289 Moe Katz,

I can't imagine that Bardot is a great defender of shechita, either.

I'm sure she's not. And, I'm sure her views don't incite Jews to violence either.

294 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:00:42am

I woke up a little while ago, and I really need to go back to sleep, but of course I have to torture myself first by reading things like this:

Bus attack scene: The screams of panic and pain

Sgt. Dekel Shai, 19, who had shut his eyes in the back of the bus on his way back to base after a weekend break, was jolted awake by the blast. He waved down a police car and went back to help the wounded. He tried to pry open the bus's front door, but his hands kept slipping on the blood-soaked surface.
Shai said he used the tourniquet that all soldiers carry in their first aid kits to stop the bleeding in the bus driver's torn leg. The driver, Yitzhak Hayat, in his 50s, screamed in pain.
"He was panicking, so I just kissed him on the forehead to quiet him," recalled Shai from a hospital bed where he was under observation. "There were people panicking who I really wanted to help but I didn't know how."

This has me crying my eyes out.

295 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:06:50am

MacBeth (#284)

Passages about Muslims, Tubiana contended, break French anti-racism laws that prevent inciting hate and discrimination on racial or religious or racial grounds.

Of course the Muslims, being the fine upstanding citizens that they are, could never ever stand accused of breaking "French anti-racism laws". The hypocrisy, as always, is stunning.

296 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:08:38am

Fox News just said these are the first two attacks in Israel in the past six months! Did I just hear that!?

297 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:10:38am

#294 zulubaby,

It's good that you can get any sleep. I got a lot of sleep over Shabbos, so this has had me wound up all night.

I finally got over to Nazimedia too. They are sick, sick people over there.

298 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:18:07am

PDM (#297)

I looked at Nazimedia too. They are indeed sick, and you are very generous in your description of them as "people". Oh, but there isn't enough going on in the world, the Nazimedia tools still have to lie and spin conspiracy theories about Charles and LGF and the Jews. I'll never understand it, but I'm fine with that. The only thing I can think of is that those "people" hate themselves more than anything. Evil, nasty creatures.

299 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:19:34am

colt
i remeber from my long ago army days, two english freinds who were posted on the good fence, the than open border with lebanon, so that they cold co-opperate with the un soldiers there... this was 1985, so I dont know what its like now.
well folks, i have to get my kids sandels tonight, and promised them a dinner out.. so we will go ot the jerusalem mall..... we wil take thebus,,, life goes on over here.

300 jenbr  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:19:41am

292 bigel -

With a strong Israel, there will be no such scenario.

301 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:20:00am

Love that Dore Gold (he's on Fox News right now).

302 Shira  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:24:31am

The bomber is reported to have been a 19-year-old engineering student.

Sure, suicide bombers blow themselves up because of their lack of any other option. Tell me another one.

This guy was in school, for heaven's sake.

And his family has set up a mourning tent.

303 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:26:34am

#298 zulubaby,

The only thing I can think of is that those "people" hate themselves more than anything. Evil, nasty creatures.

They are quite dumb too. They are so emotionally driven. Their hate really gets them way too much mileage.
All of the attacks on LGF and Charles are just shamefully pathetic hate spew.

304 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:28:56am
305 Steve Hall  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:32:10am

#269 -
If I could Photoshop, I'd give you a photo of the Geraldo in a Spanish war helmet brandishing his sword high.
The caption would be, "The JEWS need me now... exit, stage left!"
Hope just the mental visual helps a little to break up our collective mood today.
If I got three hours of sleep I was doing good last night. Gonna be a rough one.

306 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:33:50am

The names of three victims were published on Sunday afternoon, Shimon Ostinsky, 68, Nili Perov, 55 and Olga Brenner, 52, all from Jerusalem's Pisgat Ze'ev neighborhood. The municipality set up a special emergency center to help trauma victims cope with the impact of the bombing.

FROM THE JPOST

307 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:35:14am

#302 Shira,

This guy was in school, for heaven's sake.

I don't think it was for "Heaven's" sake that he was in school.
Oh, and it seems he had "extremist" neighbors too.

The family is a neighbor of Fuad Qawashmeh, 21, a Hamas supporter believed responsible for the suicide attack in Hebron on Saturday in which a Kiryat Arba couple was killed.

It must be one big, happy, neighborhood of "Palestinian" murderers.

308 Moe Katz  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:35:32am

PDM

Bardot is an admirer of Le Pen. She may be our enemy's enemy but she is no friend.

309 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:36:42am

PDM (#303)

Absolutely, a bunch of raving lunatics. They are so threatened by Charles, it would be funny if it weren't so vile. They've launched a hate campaign against him but all that they've manage to accomplish is to reveal their hateful, ugly souls (assuming that they actually have souls). Ugh!

I'm going back to bed. See you later. Be well.

310 Ariel  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:37:02am

Gil Ronen,

Or to rambling political rants by the imam of a Manhattan mosque and his followers?

I don't remember how long it took for it to be asserted that Islam was a Religion of Peace and that most Muslims oppose this after 9/11. It might not have been the same day but it certainly didn't take too long.

311 steve miller  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:38:31am

Must be tough to raise a kid for 19 years and then have him blow himself up, killing old ladies on buses.

That Religion O' Peace at work again. I sure hope this doesn't upset the Saudis & defame their prophet profit.

/sarcasm

I don't know if the situation of the Gaza Strip/West Bank is hopeless. But the people who live there, the people who are creating this culture of nihilism, THEY are hopeless. They don't create anything. They just destroy. And they delight in their destruction.

They will disappear from history, perhaps not without further terrorism. But they will disappear, like any nation that eats its young. The Soviet Union managed to make a go of it for 75 years or so, and even with all the might of an army, they collapsed when the people realized that they had no future for their children.

At some point the pointlessness of the Gaza Strip and West Bank will become apparent. And it will collapse, just about overnight.

Would that George Bush would hasten that day.

312 Shira  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:44:47am

Yeah, you're probably right, PDM. Or perhaps he was in school for the sake of the murderers' party line version of heaven.

Makes me want to grab a bunch of world leaders and yell in their faces, like in the old Cheech and Chong skit: "Class, class, class! WAKE UP!"

313 Moe Katz  Sun, May 18, 2003 3:47:21am

The above reminds me of that would-be shaheed they caught in the West Bank a few years ago who said he was planning originally to blow himself up on the Tuesday but he had an exam that day ...

314 David2  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:02:11am

The United Nations has been poisoned by a number of its member nations who support terrorism in various ways. The UN is, in a way, a terrorist organization. The United States belongs to the UN, a terrorist organization.
The war on terrorism cannot be successfully prosecuted until the US refuses to belong to any terrorist organization.
WWII was the last time the US won a war unconditionally. The United Nations did not exist during WWII.

315 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:02:15am

#308 Moe Katz,

Bardot is an admirer of Le Pen.

I think read that in a recent thread (did you post that?).

She may be our enemy's enemy but she is no friend.

I love it when our enemies bicker and fight :)
I can't imagine that many Jews would give a rat's tuchus about what Bardot thinks of shechita. But, of course, it gets the Muslim's blood coursing through their veins.

#312 Shira,

I was a little surprised to find they were not from An-Naja U.

the family of Bassem Jamal Takrouri, an engineering student from Hebron technological college, opened a mourning tent in front of their home in Hebron Sunday.

I guess they received instructions to keep the candy throwing indoors. The homicidal Hammites are partying down heavy in the old mourning tent today.

316 kid charlemagne  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:04:46am

With regard to the indymidiots I say: if you can't kill them ignore them.

317 M. Simon  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:07:56am

#16 zulubaby,

There is no Road Map. There is a Load Map.

As in "this map is a load of ........"

318 Gil Ronen  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:08:49am

Israeli media is saying some of the Hebron settlers kicked the human bomb's head around a bit after the attack. Apparently this is bad.

319 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:14:19am

154 Model4

So well said. Our own American government is an accomplice in this type of horror. By not doing an Iraq style operation in the West Bank and Gaza, this shit will continue to occur.

America is just not serious about stopping this carnage. Neither apparently is Israel. They're too concerned about what the world will say.

You know World I say this: FUCK YOU

If 10 million Jews is too much when they're surrounded by 500 million muslims then FUCK YOU.

If Jews having a tiny sliver of land is too much when they had that land long before Mohammed was a twinkle in a goat's rectum then FUCK YOU.

The only thing the world respects is strenth. Show it to them in spades. Damn the torpedoes. Give the Paleostonian scum a beating they won't ever forget.

320 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:20:39am

#224 Caton -

You're right -- riicin in the water supply would make 75% casualties.

While I share your outrage and your desire for a "constructive, long-term" solution, the vision of "Jews poisoning wells" is NOT one which I want to see.

However, I see interesting possibilities with fully-loaded KC-135s...

BTW, Fuck you, Tomas Mendosa, you self-hating Marrano pig.

321 David S.  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:28:51am

Charles said it well. How many more need to die?How many more limbs blown off, families shattered?
It is time to expell Arafat and arrest the 200 criminlas he shelters. Let the rest of the world scream and yell. If they don't go quitely, blow up that Ramallah dung heap with all of them in it. Let their "emergency services" put all of the bodies together and soak up the blood.
This makes 93 suicide bombings in less than three years. And just who is the "obstacle to peace"?

322 Shira  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:43:29am

#315 PDM

It wouldn't surprise me to find that the Hebron Technical College is run along the same party lines as An-Najah. Come to think of it, I seem to remember reading something to that effect.

323 niall  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:05:45am

Arafat's death would certainly be a catalyst for change. I can't be sure whether it would be a good or bad change, though I think good. So long as he sits there in his little heap of rubble nothing will change. A scenario where this drags on indefinitely does not favor Israel.

Nothing deep or philosphical to add to this, just a sad shake of the head and frustration that I can't do anything other than talk about it.

324 Dozerman  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:05:52am

What the Israelis need to do is find some idiotic ISM members, reprogram them, strap some C-4 to them and send them into Gaza City, Tulkarem, Jenin, Nablus, and Ramallah.

The Pals would scream for peace so quickly, you wouldn't have time for a number.

The truth is that the crazed Pals prey on the perceived weaknesses and inactions of a Democratic society. Saddam did the same thing - where is he now?

In every generation, groups have risen against us - the Mighty Egyptian Empire, The Assyrians, The Greeks, The Babylonians, The Romans, The Nazis - where are they now? Dust in the wind. We're still here.

Guess what Pals? Check out time!

Vroom, Vroom!

HAMAS- acronym means Hundreds of Assholes, Murderers And Scum.

325 Ben F  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:06:58am

Just saw Jerrold Kessel on CNN. He ends his report with the following observation: And now the world waits to see how Ariel Sharon will respond.

He's right of course. Nobody is waiting to see how Abu Mazen will respond. We all know that Abu Mazen won't do a f*cking thing. And that's fine with just about everyone.

326 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:16:14am

304 Bigel

I'm laughing out loud. Israel is supposed to be afraid of the , wait, I'm choking......The French?? The cheese eating surrender monkeys who won't even fight to defeat their own country? PUHLEEZE

Thanks for the moment of hilarity.

327 zaza  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:20:10am

#311 Steve: oh nooo, no comparison, these freaks make you MISS the Soviet Union! At least you could talk and reason with the Soviets. At least there was a way to bring them down without them taking the rest of world down with them.

They were a nation in the actual sense, not a nation in the Islamic conquest sense.

And they weren't holding the fuel that makes the world go round and round.

These fuckers are getting to call the shots, just because we depend on their fucking fossils. That's all they "create". Fossils. Their "religion" and their oil, all sprung from the darkest pits of the earth. How do you push that back?

How do we reverse that situation huh? short of a time machine?

I'm all for the whatever it takes approach. But how wide is the space for action under that blackmail, how wide is the gap between what would be ideal and what is feasible? you can blame the terrorist appeasers, blame that cesspools of hypocrisy of the "international community", the UN, the EU, their minions, you can even blame it on Bush not having the balls to go far enough, blame it on Sharon being obsessed by consent, blame it on public opinion being ready to take "anything for peace" - isn't all of that missing the main point? isn't all of that secondary to the real source of the problem, the "religion of peace" with its billionaire oil-for-appeasement programme? what kind of special operation would it take there?

328 quark2  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:26:12am

#267 Ronen...

There you have it...seed money to start off mainstream media newspapers! To hell with the socalled peaceniks that refuse to look at the situation in Israel and ask themselves ...'is this working'?....but then that would mean leaving the land of denial wouldn't it.

329 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:26:37am

Bridget Bardot is tough - when her neighbor's male donkey got a little too fresh with her female donkey, she went and castrated the creature.

330 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:28:47am

326

My Bad.

It was funny though.

The cheese eating surrender monkeys won't fight to SAVE their own country.

Like Israel gives a shit about France. Golda Meir could kick ChIraq's sorry ass.

331 Anne Lieberman  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:31:56am

Thank you, Charles. After reading and seeing all the news reports, it helps my sanity to read your comments and those hundreds of others posted in response.

On CNN last night, some idiot reporter, interviewing an Israeli emergency medical worker, said that these scenes are becoming so familiar to us (?) -- and then she asked if the medical personnel feel the same way. She's obviously bored with dead Jews, and imagines (if imagination can be ascribed to such a small and non-functioning mind) that the people who rush to the scene to help are likewise bored with it.

Then the spin was: The Palestinians have accepted the road map, but the Israelis refuse to.

There is nothing left to do but move to Israel and join the IDF.

332 Carolyn Brown  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:34:13am

please educate me. why doesnt the israeli army start killing palestinians and get rid of all of them. Why not go to war and decimate them? is it because the israelis dont want to go to war? do they like having this going on forever? is the rest of the world the only ones fighting about this? thats what it seems like. is it because the israelis care about world opinion? Why? No one is on their side that wants to stop the killing. the only way to get rid of a mad dog is to put it down

333 EE  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:36:24am

This terrorism is a small foretaste of what would await Israel if the Palis got their demand to flood Israel with millions of Arabs (the "right of return" they call it). There would be massive civil war in Israel. There would be massive anti-Jewish terrorism. The Pali judenrein state which would come into existence next door, and the other Arab states, and Iran, would contribute arms and men to attack Israel from the outside while it is trying to survive the terrorism from within. The Jews would attempt to flee to walled ghettos on the shores of the Mediterranean, in the vicinity of Tel Aviv and Haifa, as terrorism increased and as the higher Arab birthrate produced an overwhelming Arab majority in Israel. The world would cry out against apartheit (not against the slaughter of the Jews). The Arab majority in Israel would give the remaining Jews the choice of leaving or being annihilated.

The Euros do not care at all about Pali performance. They are only interested in the calendar and Israeli performance. They want no considerations of Pali performance or lack of performance to delay the roadmapped journey to hell.

334 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:44:48am

lizzy, just got on the blog. Keep well, hug the kids for me. BTW, the latest from Ha'aretz on the victims:

Shimon Ostinsky, 68, from the northern Jerusalem neighborhood of Pisgat Ze'ev; Nelly Parov, 55; Olga Brenner, 52; Marina Sachivirshvili, 44; Yitzhak Moyial, 64; and Roni Yisraeli, 35. The seventh victim has been identified, but the name has not yet been released.

335 Tiburon  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:51:33am

A Modest Proposal

Kidnap the Ajar el Asswad. (or whatever the moon rock is called). Send in a nice little focused Special Forces team, crowbar it out of the box, and spirit it away to Antartica.

Put it on satellite cam. Have a hammer and chisel handy, and everytime there is another terrorist atrocity anywhere in the world, knock off a chunk. Let our Islamicist Brothers know that they'll get it back when they behave.

Y'see, humiliation is what They claim is causing all the seething - (though I subscribe more to the theory that Ishmael is simply half jackass and half man - "a wild people, with everyman in each others' face", as it says in the Bible). And in fact, the pride thing is pretty central to their culture.

Most "humiliations" they seem to be able to come back from, especially as they are moongod-worshipping deathcultists, (IMO).

This one, they wouldn't come back from; - It would be the end of Islam as a world religion.

KTA(ALGSTO)

336 Tiburon  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:54:30am

Kidnapping, Blackmail, and Threats, - They Understand

337 Ben F  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:00:24am

Tiburon--

The Ark of the Covenant vanished with the sacking of the Solomon's Temple by Nebuchadnezzar.

It didn't slow Judaism down. At all.

Neither did the loss of the Second Temple.

Try something else.

338 Gil Ronen  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:08:52am

Quark2:

Explain please. I think I hear sarcasm/criticism in there but I'm apparently too thick to understand what you're saying.

339 zaza  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:09:38am

Tiburon: that's a nice, creative proposal.

But, guess what, it'd backfire. They'd start claiming their right to conquer Antarctica, a.k.a. Palestine, from the river to the pole...

340 Wild Justice  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:15:17am

I feel the need, the need to re-post (from the other day), this time with emphasis added:

My alternative?
The ball's in the Pal's court. They renounce violence. They recognize Israel. THEN we talk.
Until then, it's status quo. Or a wall. Or all-out war, destruction, annihilation, and humiliation ... and force them to beg for peace.
341 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:15:46am

331 Annie There is nothing left to do but move to Israel and join the IDF.

and

332 Carolyn the only way to get rid of a mad dog is to put it down

I am so with you my sisters!

All I can think of now is how badly I want to do something. I am so tired of writing letters to the editor that never seem to change anything. I've had it with writing to my government; all we get are calls for Israeli restraint.

I am willing to give all that I have and hold dear in defense of Israel. I'm not religious. I am certain of the right for Israel to exist in peace and for the hypocracy of the world, including our own dear US, to be exposed.

I wish I could do something......

342 gymnast  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:15:52am

No impunity for those who plan, facilitate, or attempt to carry out these acts. What useful purpose does allowing arafat to escape long overdue mortality serve, when viewed from the perspective of history or easily forseen future events?

343 Teacake  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:16:00am

Until I found LGF I thought Israel had no friends. Thank you all!

At Israelinsider there are 2 articles. One says Colin Powell has made it clear the road map will proceed regardless of terrorist attacks. The other article says Abu made it clear that until Israel accepts the plan as is, the terrorist attacks will continue.

All roads lead to Israel lossing everything. Respond with FORCE Israel! You already have everything to loose as is.

Fantacy - the loonie leftys form a human chain around the west bank as a fleet of buldozers charge in to flatten the UN/pally occupied territories.

344 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:17:05am

al Jabir on Fox News Sunday (Fox Network) now. Rushed quotes.

Tony Snow:"at least 3 clerics Saudi (names) condoned attacks"
Jabir: "Supreme Islamic council has issued a fatwah stating it's un-Islamic to call people Infidels and call for murder"
Listen up Jabir-jaw, we're not idiots. Just because 95% of our media will buy (purchase may be more apt) the lies you speak in English doesn't mean the American people do. Muhammed's gonna be sooooo mad when you meet up with him in Hell for this direct piece of blasphemy against his Koran.

Tony Snow: "Will other religion be allowed to establish churches or synagogues?"
Jabir: "I doubt it."

TS: "When you teach your children you refer to them as kaffir and Infidels. Will this change?"
Jabir: "We're looking into this and hope to change it. Any Muslim must also believe in the Old and New Testament, so Muslims must be tolerent of Christians and Jews."
Sure jabir-jaw. Can't wait 'til you get busted on how you think the OT and NT are full of lies, that some cooked books of yours are the "real deal."

Great questions Tony, Fox rocks. Can't wait for the panel.

345 Stoob  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:26:32am

I wonder what would happen if SARS spread through Arafat's Playground?


I wouldn't shed a single tear, but I'd be loathe to bury their poison carcasses in the ground...it'd be better to shoot them into the Sun.

346 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:33:06am

Oh great. NOW Israel is considering deporting AraRat.

Deporting? What, so he can go lay on the topless beach with the reprobates from the Church of the Nativity?

I'm pretty sick of Israel's government too. Too little, too late.

Give the Paleostonians a real ass kicking. Use jets, MOABS, napalm, the works. Let the world scream. Who gives a shit. No one cares when Jews die. Why should Jews care what the world says when they do what is so long overdue?

The world will get over it. The Jews have no other choice.

347 bunuel  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:38:31am

Charles.

You have perfect hearing and pefect voice and a perfect heart.

348 M. Simon  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:42:57am

#126 Bill Jefferson,

I like palestinian National Suicide Bomber

#136 Alex F,

Once they will do anything for peace their days are numbered. Munich 1938. Poland 1939.

#156 lizzy,

We need to see the blood in the streets and the dead grandmas. We need to feel the cost. This shit has to stop. it will not stop until we feel the pain.

Put the pictures up on every street corner. Harden out heats to their suffering until they beg three times for mercy. If they will not quit until the last man woman and child is dead then kill them all. Every man, woman, and child.

Just sign me a formerly pro-Palestinian American Jew

349 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:43:27am

#268 wordwarp

What you write here is forever stuck to Charles and his blogs' reputation.

Charles is free to delete what he wants to delete and is not responsible for the comments.

But what you are doing, ah, now that's different. It's called intellectual terrorism. It's trying to force people to shut up with dummy, stupid arguments, because you don't agree with them. It actually fits very well your chosen name. But go warp the words of somebody else. I don't need commie's oversight of my posts.

350 Grenzer  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:47:52am

Wow, I hear about the attacks late last night and find that by the morning mor than 300 comments have been already made. I'm reading a lot of talk about "mass retaliation" and detroying the palestinian threat once and for all but lets get honest with ourselves. In two weeks Arabigpieceoffat and his cronies will still be alive and well, sipping fine French wine with their good buddies from the EU and the UN; dicussing how they should commence their next step in their great plan to discredit, divide, and eventually destroy the Israeli nation and "liquidate" the "evil imperialistic Zionists" that they harbour so much venomous rage for. And do you know what the saddest part of this whole story is? It's the fact that when we (the Jewish people) had yet another chance to strike when the iron was hot, Self-hating, extreme leftist, and just plain ignorant elements of our population in both Israel and the U.S. will call for moderation and a peace without war or struggle. I know this to be true because I have met far to many fellow Jews with this attitude and they more than any other single element in this equation (besides President Bush and the State Department) are responsible for this prelonged foolishness and sorrow that has become so endemic at all levels of both Iraeli society and the collective global Jewish community in general. I fear that at this point those of us who know how futile it is to negotiate with the Arabs at a conference table can only sit back and what this tragedy play to its logical and horrifying conclusion.

351 Alan Sullivan  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:48:55am

I rarely look at the comments at LGF, but so many had come so fast that I got curious.

A lot of people are advocating extreme violence against the Islamists, but this is also a war of ideas, and I think Bush made a terrible mistake when he endorsed the two state solution. Think where we would be today if instead he had said this:

"My Administration will never support a Palestinian State. Murder must not be rewarded. Our ally Israel should do whatever it must to secure its borders and put an end to terrorism. We understand that Israel has to control the West Bank for its very survival. We will not object if the government of Israel decides to deport every single terrorist across the River Jordan or the Suez."

I believe the intifada would have ended if Bush had uttered these words. He would have killed the hope that sustains the irridentists, who believe that the West will waver and Israel collapse. If that hope is killed, it may not be necessary to kill the people.

352 Eric Sivula  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:49:37am

Is there any way for us 'evil Gentiles' from forming our own mercenary force and invading the 'Palestinian Authority'? Sort of an unsanctioned "Israeli Foreign Legion"? "You have joined the legion to make Martyrs, we will send where men make Martyrs."

I don't really have anything else to say, except that my thoughts and prayers are with the Israeli people, exept for the my wishes that Arafat have a heart attack and die.

353 Eric Sivula  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:52:54am

'Is there any way for us 'evil Gentiles' from forming our own mercenary force and invading the 'Palestinian Authority'? '

Sorry about that. What I meant was : Is there any way for us 'evil Gentiles' to form our own mercenary force and invade the 'PA'?

354 quark2  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:55:08am

#338


No, I'm serious Ronen...there needs to be an influx of new media....there are those in Isreal who if they had the money could start communications with the public that bypasses the peacnik's rags.
What we are witnessing is once again the same sense of denial the Jews quagmired in before WWII...until it was too late to either fight back or flee.
They need a loud clear voice warning of clear and present danger.

355 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:55:47am

#308 Moe Katz

Bardot is an admirer of Le Pen. She may be our enemy's enemy but she is no friend.

Not exactly. Bardot is dumb, so dumb she literally can't walk and chew gum. She got a new lover a few years ago, and that means she suddenly got a new set of political opinions. Before, she supported the Green party...

356 Tiburon  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:56:33am

#337 Ben F.

Hi Ben, nice to see you again. Needless to say I hope, post #335 was 'tongue-in-cheek'. But surely you are not equating Jewish survival and the People of the Book with the Aravim? What else do they have, really, Ben? The hodge-podge of Jewish/Christian/animist philosophy in the Koran? As They'd be laughing stocks of the planet, class clowns, - Rage and Seethe they would, doubtless, but imagine the NYTimes headlines: - "More Killed for Rock" - How long could anyone remain rational and support such violent actions??

oh, ....right. never mind. :-)

#339 zaza

Well, we could always not TELL them where we put it....and it's not as if they are strong swimmers or anything...but

They'd start claiming their right to conquer Antarctica, a.k.a. Palestine, from the river to the pole...

LOL :-)

and #341 Uzi -

'course we all are about to "snap"....Deep Breaths my friend....
Personally I agree with Ari Fleisher - Israel should stop being concerned with what the pals and Arabs are doing, and concentrate on what we are doing: -

ANNEX YESHA

KTA

357 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:02:26am

#320 Frank IMC

While I share your outrage and your desire for a "constructive, long-term" solution, the vision of "Jews poisoning wells" is NOT one which I want to see.

Mark my words, then: it WILL happen. There is only so much people can stand before they react in kind. Another few years of terrorism, and I guarantee the Palis WILL be wiped out, all of them, through poisoning, chemical warfare, bombing, anything that'll kill them. It's been three years now. How long can people stand this shit?

358 Amy  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:07:48am

I just got back from Israel early this morning after 2 weeks there. My brother was there, too, for part of the time, having been invited to give some lectures on ancient Greek grammar at Tel Aviv and Hebrew Universities.

We went to Jerusalem (to the Jewish Quarter, since that's the only relatively safe area) on "Naqba Day," and the place was deserted except for the Haredim. Nothing stops them. The people who are still going to Israel are the Orthodox, but they don't stay in the hotels or frequent the restaurants or shops. There was an incredible amount of security in Jerusalem - soldiers and police literally everywhere.

No matter where one goes, there are security guards checking bags, and there are magnetometers in many places as well.

During the two weeks I was there, I had the place practically to myself. There are no tourists - it's almost eerie. People were looking at me, with my camera hanging around my neck like a poster saying, "I'm a tourist," as though I were some kind of exotic creature. There was nobody in Caesaria or Beit Shearim or Megiddo or Akko or Haifa or Masada or at the Dead Sea or Jaffo or Tel Arad or Bat Yam or the Azrieli towers in Tel Aviv or the museums... Just groups of Israeli kids on school trips (with armed escorts) and the odd small group of (mostly Christian) tourists.

I rode the buses and sat in the back, finding myself scrutinizing everyone who got on, but it's impossible to tell in every case who's a Jew and who's an Arab until they open their mouths - the Arabs speak Hebrew with a pronounced Arabic accent; but there are older Jews from Arab countries who also speak Hebrew with an Arabic accent, so speech patterns are not 100 percent foolproof, either.

Those of us who grew up thinking that there is such a thing as a "Jewish look" find that our roadmaps are of no use at all in Israel. The sheer variety of faces proves that there is no such thing as a "Jewish face." Yemenite Jews look nothing like Russian Jews, who look nothing like Ethiopian Jews, and so on. There are Jews of every conceivable skin color, hair color and with every kind of facial features you can imagine.

And the Israelis just go about their business as usual. It's unbelievable. Lots of soldiers ride the buses and trains (for free), toting their guns everywhere they go. Everyone has cell phones, and the phones ring constantly - people continually check up on one another. We went to Gilo (by car) to see what the Arabs were shooting at - there are still sandbags piled up in apartment windows.

I felt obligated to spend money. There is no one in the shops or in the hotels, even though the exchange rate for American money is incredibly favorable (about 4.5 shekels to the dollar).

And the country is so beautiful it's heartbreaking. The Judean desert is awe-inspiring. No human presence aside from occasional encampments of Bedouin, with their camels and sheep. Just miles of ancient formations of ochre, red and brown rock.

All one has to do is go to Israel to understand how wrenching it is to contemplate giving away even one inch of that land.

359 piglet  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:10:43am
If there are massive strikes in Gaza, thousands of Jews in France and Belgium will not only be killed, the governments and medias of those countries (and the rest of Europe) will be thrilled.

First, let me clearly state I would never ask anyone to break the law, or commit acts of violence, this is strickly a theoritical posting.

PLO has used two methods since the 1970s:

1) Say the attacks are by splinter groups so Arafat avoids punishment.

2) Unable to attack Israel, they attack europe, who is willing to pressure Israel into danger to avoid harm to the EU.


If deniable "splinter groups" or Israelis/Jews/local rebels
killed EU diplomates and politicians following each attack on jews anywhere in the world, they might decide that suppoorting the killing of jews has a cost, and they should fear jewish/ israeli wrath more than the arab street.


If nothing else, kneecapping a few highly visable anti-jewish politicians in europe would fell better than doing nothing.

Of course this could backfire, but what is the cost of doing nothing. Biggest problem would be what the Bush administration would do in such a case.

360 Alon  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:14:11am

A REAL ROADMAP FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST

..a U.S. Colonel suggested this plan on The O'Reilly Factor, so I take no credit.

Israel must build a large cement wall along the entire Green Line and a large cement wall along the Jordanian border. It must then build the world's largest parking lot in between.

361 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:18:02am

Caton -

Believe me, I will be VERY happy to see massive, deadly retaliation - I'm just saying that the specific act of poisoning wells would be a very bad way to go about it given the historical context.

SARS sounds like a possibility, considering the density of population and poor hygeine.

Also this would be a particularly good time to clear the filth off the Temple Mount. Or at least load it with explosives and show Arik's hand waiting to press the red button, 24/7 on al-Jazirah.

Just curious - does the IDF admit American Gentiles?

362 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:21:53am

Amy -

the Arabs speak Hebrew with a pronounced Arabic accent

For someone who's fluent in neither Hebrew nor Arabic, can you tell me some of the characteristics of Hebrew spoken with an Arabic accent?

363 Paladin  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:24:22am

Rested and STILL pissed. (but not with zulubaby)

Can anyone tell me the difference between the United States military rolling into Baghdad to take out Saddam Hussein and the IDF rolling into Ramallah and taking out Arafat?

Both constitute an immediate threat to the existence of a free people.

Can't wait for reaction.

364 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:26:57am

#361 Frank IMC

Wells? Why go for the wells? No, it's the treating & sterilisation stations that will be targeted. It's the easiest way to wipe out a population. But no well will be poisoned.

Feeling better now?

365 Amy  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:28:45am

Frank -

The Arabs roll their r's in a distinctive way, which the Israelis do not do, and they also have a very glottal way of speaking - they sound letters in their throats or in the backs of their mouths, whereas the Israelis, except for the "kh" sound, sound their letters in the fronts of their mouths. There is really no mistaking one for the other.

366 Ariel  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:29:32am

Amy,

Thanks for that moving description. Makes me even more unable to wait for when my visit is... right now planned for October.

367 Jimmy the Dimmy  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:31:00am

I didn't read posts yet. It occurs that there are two over-riding issues.

The first is the pressures that the US puts on Israel to influence her actions, pressures which culminate in the ongoing and infernal immunity granted to arafat. This creates an inconsistency in the underlying ideals which guide Israel's actions.

The second is the disunity, the competition of ideas inherent to any democratic society, within Israel that influences her actions. This creates an inability to navigate the differences cited above.

These issues would have to be resolved and clarified before the decisive actions so many desire could be taken.

368 Amy  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:31:18am

Ariel -

October is a wonderful time to go - after the heat of the summer and before the winter rains. Enjoy!! It was already quite hot while I was there - in the '80's or '90's every day.

369 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:37:29am

Paladin:

Can anyone tell me the difference between the United States military rolling into Baghdad to take out Saddam Hussein and the IDF rolling into Ramallah and taking out Arafat?

Yeah, that's easy--joos are supposed to "turn the other cheek" and let ourselves be killed, not defend ourselves.

Do I sound bitter? Tough shit.

370 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:42:53am

Caton -

I know this is silly, but I felt it would be "bad PR". (Yeah, like Israel ever gets any GOOD PR.)

Amy -

OK, I qnow exaqtly what to listen for - thanqs. Also I'm ghessing they might have trouble with some vowels - ie. prronounce "o" liqe "u" and "eh" liqe "ee" or "ah"?

371 Ariel  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:43:03am

Amy,

Do you happen to know a consolidator who can get cheap flights to Israel? They seem really expensive.

We're actually going to go for a cousin's wedding, but it makes it that much better that it's a good season for a visit.

372 Jimmy the Dimmy  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:47:32am

#363 Paladin

Similar thoughts at the same time. You have enumerated one of the main inconsistencies I noted in my post #367.

The difference is that the US has protected arafathead over the years to placate the arabs because of our strategic dependence on them for oil. Because of the extent and nature of our support for Israel, we exert a profound influence on her actions.

As I noted, the real strategic needs of our country create a conflict with the ideals we espouse. This contradiction becomes more pronounced with respect to the Bush doctrine regarding terrorism.

It seems that if we could address this single issue to resolution, something that has not yet been done, it would have a far-reaching impact on the outcome of the entire situation, assuming that resolution would be consistent with stated principles.

373 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:52:25am

#370 Frank IMC

That's exactly where you are wrong. Terrorism works, terrorism is rewarded, terrorism is now an internationally accepted way of waging war, under the name 'asymetrical warfare'. The 'international community' loves terrorism and funds terrorists. Resorting to terrorism is Good PR today.

374 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:52:42am

Frank IMC: The most obvious difference is that most Arabic speakers pronounce "P" like "B" (as in "Balestine"). OTOH, I can't pronounce many Arabic gutterals. In fact, when I was taking lessons, I couldn't even hear the difference between the two sounds when my teacher tried to correct me.

375 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:54:43am

OT, but here is some possible background on "Tomas Mendosa", of IdiotMedia fame. (via Google search)

376 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:55:13am

#373 Caton: The international community loves terrorists--unless they're Jews.

377 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:57:11am

Caton -

Resorting to terrorism is Good PR today.

I'd like to think that, but the sad reality is that Israel is damned for what they do, regardless of what everyone else does.

378 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:59:14am

I mean, they're still throwing the King David Hotel back in our faces, and that was 55? years ago.

379 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:00:05am

What Frank said...

" 'Well, Yassir does it!' What kind of excuse is that? If Yassir jumped off the Empire State Building, would you? Now give all your toys to Yassir and go to your room. I mean, let Yassir have your room and go to the basement."

380 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:02:43am

#387 Frank

Last year on a phone-in show someone was equating the Passover massacre at the Park Hotel with the King David Bombing. I managed to get on at the end of the show and point out a few teensy, weensy differences (military headquarters, phoned warning, etc.). But I still hear stuff like "Terrorism as a tactic started with the bombing of the King David Hotel." Drives me crazy.

381 Paladin  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:02:58am

#369 cba
#372 Jimmy the Dhimmy

Your bitterness is understandable and I share it. But turning the other cheek has not proven fruitful to say the least.

Saddam Hussein was protected by the Euroweenies and the UN. It didn't help him.

What would the US do if the IDF took out Arafat and him terrorists?

What could they do?

Bush is no fool. He knows what Arafat is. I have never been able to understand how he can justify taking out Hussein and protecting Arafat. Votes? Nah! More Jews vote in the US than Moslems.

What is it?

382 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:04:10am

#376 cba

The international community loves terrorists--unless they're Jews.

When was the last time we used terrorism? And I mean terrorism, attacks specifically targeted against civilians. When was it?

#377 Frank IMC

I'd like to think that, but the sad reality is that Israel is damned for what they do, regardless of what everyone else does.

Well, the only thing we haven't ever tried is the kind of action the Arabs are getting rewarded for -- terrorism. And, as you point out, it's not like it can get worse for us, right?

#378 Frank IMC

I mean, they're still throwing the King David Hotel back in our faces, and that was 55? years ago.

Of course they are. It was a military target. Bad PR. Irgun should have blown up an Anglican church instead -- Good PR.

383 Alex F  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:05:17am

#349 Caton

I wasn't trying to do that. Rather my point was that, for them at NaziMedia, reading angry rants on LFG is like the Paleo-Arabs getting off on the death of Jews. Except it is a bit worse, because the NaziMediazoids use rants like yours as "evidence" of some sort or another. Just more sh*t we have to argue against...

384 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:05:27am

Amy #358

Beautiful description.

Alan Sullivan #351
This is so true:

"My Administration will never support a Palestinian State. Murder must not be rewarded. Our ally Israel should do whatever it must to secure its borders and put an end to terrorism. We understand that Israel has to control the West Bank for its very survival. We will not object if the government of Israel decides to deport every single terrorist across the River Jordan or the Suez."

As wonderful as Dubya has been on fighting terror he completely misses it by not encouraging Israel to do the very thing our country just did in Iraq.

And Americans Jews particularly who don't point out this hypocracy are helping terror. If it's in Israel, it will be back in the US very soon.

385 Annette  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:07:17am

OT

Can anyone help me debunk this, especially the demographics part? I would appreciate any help, statistics would be best.

"At the end of the nineteenth century Palestine had about 500,000 Arab residents and a few thousand Jewish residents. At the time of partition there were roughly 2 million people. 1/3 were Jewish and owned 7% of the land. At partition almost 3/4 million Arabs left what was to become Israel. Many fled for fear of the Jewish terrorists. This fear was gleafully exploited by Ben Gurion and his associates, though I believe he never authorised attacks on civilians. Many were expelled at gunpoint. (I think Jewish historians accept that there is evidence that 20,000 were forceably expelled.)
The idea that there were almost no people in Palestine and that Jewish settlers simply took free land is a myth."

386 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:08:56am

#382--I didn't mean to imply that we had used terrorism. I was just pointing out that the reaction to Jewish terrorism would be very different than it is to "ordinary" and "understandable" terrorism, the kind you said the international community supports.

OK, I did just think of one case--Goldstein (I'm not using his first because it means "blessed"). "Aroor" Goldstein deliberately targetted civilians at prayer. And there was at least one other plot that was foiled (I don't remember the details).

387 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:10:03am

#379 cba

Who cares about Arafat? Everybody does it, and it fucking works. Corsica? Gained 'autonomy', i.e. France pays for Corsica and has no say in how Corsica spends French money. The Basques? Total autonomy, the only thing they cannot do is sign a military treaty with another country. The Arabs, we all know. Albania? They're stealing Kosovo from Serbia right now, and are about to take over Macedonia, too. Chechnya? Mark my word: they will be rewarded, too. And so on...

388 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:11:57am

Yes, it fucking works--but it wouldn't work for us. That's all I'm saying.

389 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:12:14am

#383 Alex F

NaziMedia? See #151.

390 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:12:16am

Sorry, my previous concern with "bad PR" from "poisoning the wells" does seem kind of silly, given that they will use ANY pretext to blame Israel/the Jews. Like I said in a follow-up post, screw world opinion, do what is necessary to clear out the human filth and make Israel a safe and happy place. Go ahead, bring on the Ricin.

391 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:14:02am

#386 cba

You can also name the Stern group. The difference is that we wiped them out.

392 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:14:03am

Annette #385

This link is an excellent resource.

393 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:17:20am

#388 cba

Yes, it fucking works--but it wouldn't work for us. That's all I'm saying.

Wanna bet?

Let's put it this way: we only have two options. Suicide, or terrorism. You can put a bullet in your kid's head before killing yourself Masada-style. I'm not going to, not before the other option has failed.

394 cgreene  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:18:37am

I think world should respond by an announcement that Islamic terrorist attacks will result in the destruction of mosques...

1st attack - 1 mosque
2nd - 2 mosques
3rd- 4 mosques
4th- 8 mosques and as the terrorist attacks continue the size and importance of the mosques will increase...

When we hit 16 we need to take out the Dome of the Rock...

this WOULD stop them.

395 Wild Justice  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:19:25am

#358 Amy 

Thanks for your heartfelt post.

396 Mitch Polka  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:27:26am

This just in from IMRA. Scroll down to #13
Warning: if you think you've heard the worst that Shimon Peres is capable of, get ready to plumb new depths.
As long as people like him can actually be taken seriously by Israelis, we can't realistically expect matters to get better. Imagine the Arabapes' drooling grins when they read this treasonous momzer's drivel.

397 Annette  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:32:21am

#392, UsiDoesIt

Thanks for the link.

398 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:34:37am

#397 Annette

You're very welcome. Please email me, I'd like to ask you about some places to visit.

399 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:37:23am

#381 Paladin:

Bush is no fool. He knows what Arafat is. I have never been able to understand how he can justify taking out Hussein and protecting Arafat. Votes? Nah! More Jews vote in the US than Moslems.

Many more liberals and leftists vote in the US, many of them Jews, who seem to choose leaders and policies that reward Arab dictators and punish Israel. The conservative Muslims vote the same way too.

400 Frank IMC  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:43:22am

Israel could start by giving Yassin the Leon Klinghoffer treatment.

Also, as I mentioned in a subsequent thread, Israel could go back to Janin and undertake the massacre that it was accused of doing last year. I mean, if "world opinion" already blames Israel for that, then no more damage would be done.

And hopefully the US will give India the green light to deal with Pakistan.

401 nik  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:44:39am

#385 those numbers sound abour right.

At the time of partition there were roughly 2 million people. 1/3 were Jewish and owned 7% of the land. At partition almost 3/4 million Arabs left what was to become Israel.

They left not because of the partition, but because they were dispirited by their defeats in the war which they launched against Israel. Israel accepted the partition -- the Palestinians and all other Arab states did not. They invaded Israel. When the tide turned against them, since they had little attachment to the land and had no collective identity to speak of their society could not withstand the stress of the war. The upper classes were the first to flee, followed by the bewildered masses.


Jewish and owned 7% of the land

7% of what? Historic Palestine (including Transjordan)? This figure is meaningless. The 1947 UN partition plan set up a border between a Jewish and an Arab state, the Arabs went to war to eradicate the Jewish state.

At the time of partition there were roughly 2 million people. 1/3 were Jewish

I think that this is about right. The only reason there were so few Jews in Palestine at the time is because the British severely restricted Jewish immigration into Palestine. In 1948 there were hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees outside of Israel waiting to come in. If the British had allowed free immigration then there would probably have been a Jewish majority in Palestine by 1948.

The idea that there were almost no people in Palestine and that Jewish settlers simply took free land is a myth."

No one espouses such an "idea." This is a straw man which is set up just to be knocked down.

402 Jimmy the Dimmy  Sun, May 18, 2003 8:56:57am

#393 Caton

What you would do on a personal level under the ultimate extreme conditions, I would not presume to criticize. But to implement terrorism would be a defeat, an acknowledgement that the system under which you lived was not capable of prevailing.

The battle must be won by the system. Only the system will have the strength necessary to sustain the victory. It is much less satisfying, much less glorious, to think in this way. But, I would hope you remember this, especially as you are moving there.

The answer, the justification, for Israel to act, is there. It just needs to be clearly enumerated, then implemented.

Many of us find it difficult to understand the constraints placed on Israel by the US, and by factions within. It is difficult to comprehend how these pressures can keep Israel from acting to defend her citizens. Only Israelis can decide which course of action is in her own best interests.

In case anyone new here wonders, I am in favor of a much more "vigorous" posture and course of action by Israel, and the US. But both parties must address and resolve the major conflicts between their ideals and their actions to justify those actions, not to others, but to themselves. Because the actions of which I speak involve loss of lives.

403 Yossarian  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:05:53am
404 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:11:48am

#402 Jimmy the Dimmy

Nothing will be won against terrorists within the constraints of the Geneva conventions and without being able to strike the money source.

I am predicting that the Israelis will get as mad as I am, and that we will end up using terrorism, too. Without state support, those actions will be a lot more deadly, and wipe out the Palis. And I don't really care.

405 Clio  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:23:36am

No 385 - Annette

For full statistics fully documented

*From Time Immemorial* by Joan Peters --

(There have been many attempts to discredit the work and the author -- her facts are just too inconvenient for some people's fancies)

406 veebee  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:24:52am

Yossarian --
I think Sharon is right. On some level, it will be very satisfying to see Arafat expelled, but I also realize that this feeing stems purely from my desire for retaliation. Not that retaliation is always wrong, but what this particular act accomplish, really? It won't put an end to terror, it will merely remove the ugliest and the most morally repugnant person in the world. Right now few in the US trust "Palestinian" leader, so why give Pals a free makeover? An expulsion we will clear the way for someone else, we will still need to explain that he too, like Abu Mazen is a terrorist.

407 Amos  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:31:32am

I've had it with the fucking jews. I no longer feel sorry for them. They have all the power they need to crush their enemies and end this, by evicting the arabs and anexing the settlement land behind a walled-off greater isreal.

Or else dismanteling the settlments and retreating behind a walled-off lesser Isreal.

Either way, that's the only thing that will end this. Seperation. They won't do it? Fine, so get bombed, shot murdered etc by these fucking barbarians forever.

I'm no longer sorry for the jews. I feel sorry for people being opressed WITHOUT the ability to fight back, like the Tibetians or Burmese. The jews? Pussies. Fuck 'em.

Aparently the Warsaw ghetto and auschwitz didn't teach them anything after all.

408 Jimmy the Dimmy  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:35:47am

#404 Caton

Today is not the day to push my points. I am developing a sense that we must clarify our principles in order to justify a significant military activity. I am no longer on the roller-coaster ride of emotion that accompanies every atrocity. I'm not presuming that that's a good thing.

409 Jimmy the Dimmy  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:47:12am

#407 Amos

You can't just write off the Jews like that. First of all, the US has exerted pressures on them for years. They could not ignore those pressures, as the support we provided was vital to their existence.

Israel also has internal contradictions, just as the US does. I would agree that those are more irritating, even infuriating, less understandable. But they are also a part of a democratic society.

410 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:48:09am

#408 Jimmy the Dimmy

You missed my point. Significant military activity against the PLO will only slow down the killing, at most it will stop it for a few months. Israel does not have the military might to go against the funding, i.e. the whole Arab/Muslim world, the E.U., and Muslims everywhere else.

That's why the only answer is to go after the Arab civilians.

411 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:48:27am

Anne Lieberman (#331)

There is nothing left to do but move to Israel and join the IDF.

I was hoping I wasn't the only one thinking that.

Amy (#358)

Wonderful post. I hope to go there soon.

412 Gil Ronen  Sun, May 18, 2003 9:50:40am

Amos: precisely.

413 Yehudit  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:05:54am
they're still throwing the King David Hotel back in our faces, and that was 55? years ago.

Because that and the Stern Gang are all they've got. They don't have any examples less than 50 years old.

That's why they have to go back to the Canaanites to find an example of Jews as warmongering invaders (although there is some evidence the Jews just dribbled in and mingled with the local population). They don't have any more recent examples. Whenever someone lobs that at me I tell them they've just proved my point.

414 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:11:55am

Caton

We are, of course, speaking hypothetically.

A fault I see is that the PA and friends have been more than willing to base themselves in civilian areas and have even killed Arabs for propaganda.

Why would they suddenly start listening to their people?

Shit like this does make me more and more interested in joining the IDF. I know, that in itself won't make a huge amount of difference. But the training would make me feel a lot better.

415 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:13:42am

Caton

We are, of course, speaking hypothetically.

I thought I'd make that very clear. Clear as day, clear as clear can be. Catch my drift?

416 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:20:57am

#414 Colt

I'm not speaking hypothetically, I'm pointing out a few facts.

The PLO leaders are not blowing themselves up, you know. They are brainwashing kids for that, with the kids' parents approval, too.

Scaring the leaders doesn't work -- they have the support of the 'international community', and terrorism is making them rich.

Scaring the kids doesn't work either -- brainwashed.

So the only target is the parents and the families. Scare them off, and terrorism will diminish or stop.

But, to scare them off, what is needed is a show of ruthlessness beyond what the Arab world is used to.

Now you do the maths...

417 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:23:18am

#415 Colt

Yeah, dug it. So?

418 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:28:42am

Caton

Along side British understatement is British overstatement.

419 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:31:03am

Caton

How do you scare off parents if they are willing to send their kids off to die?

Um, you'd best email a response to that.

420 Jimmy the Dimmy  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:33:40am

#410 Caton

Significant military activity against the PLO will only slow down the killing, at most it will stop it for a few months

I have to go, but let me say this.

What I mean by significant military activity has not occurred for a long time. To me the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq were too diluted by humanitarian concerns. I disagree with the government's separation between the actions of these governments and the responsibilty of their populations.

In both instances, too many people got away, too many criminals remain, and therefore too much violence still occurs. Neither country has surrendered. Both governments ran away.

My concept of significant military activity would completely destroy the PLO, everyone in it who did not surrender completely, and all the institutions of hate, and anyone who did not continue to toe the line. It would involve a much larger incremental increase in the use of force, one that would force a calculation to be made by the recipient of that force as to the pluses and minuses of their actions.

In a way some of my own posts here contradict each other. But it seems that the priciples could be laid out that would form a foundation that would support these actions.

Israel could do this by threatening, then implementing, an exponential increase in military action in response to every terrorist attack. While they could not attack the entire arab world, they could make the price for themselves to be attacked prohibitive for the local population.

421 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:39:27am

#407 Amos: Good post and points. I find myself more and more feeling the same way. What's all this talk of Westerners joining an IDF that isn't taking the fight to the known enemy in known locations as it is? If there was a gang in my neighborhood that had murdered several citizens and said they intended to keep on doing so without remorse, what should I think of a police dept. that knows the identities and locations and can prove their case without a hint of doubt in court, but refuses to go after them? "Sorry Mr.4, if they are actively shooting at you, give us a call and we'll try and break up that firefight."

Now the IDF has great people and does great things, and have to follow the lead of the gov't, but they are acting more like a police force than a military. The Israeli gov't is purposefully telling spokesmen to go on American news shows, but not make a clear case to rouse the American public. Getting pressure from Washington? Get us to put more pressure on Washington than they put on Israel. Give us a clear, current picture of what the end should look like so we can make it happen. Most of us aren't going to care about what happens to the PLO terrorists. But fewer of us will care what happens to Jewish civilians when Israel treats their slaughter like a gazelle going down to a lion on the nature channel - the natural order of things.

Want funding? I'll personally buy and ship 1,000 M-16 rounds, if they'll be put to use!

422 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:49:21am

Amy (#358)

Welcome back! Happy to hear that you're home, safe and sound. Thanks for your post, I've been looking forward to your "report" about your trip to Israel :-)

It saddens me to hear that it's so quiet there. When I was there last it was far quieter than any other time I'd been there, but it was still busy enough. From your description it sounds desolate.

All one has to do is go to Israel to understand how wrenching it is to contemplate giving away even one inch of that land.

I have been saying that for years (albeit not as eloquently). There is something so incredibly special about Israel, one only has to go there once to understand why we fight so hard for it.

423 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:04:40am

Model4

My joining the IDF would serve two purposes: training and experience in combat.

From there, who knows?

BTW, the M16 fires a 5.56. I'd rather have something chunky like a 7.62

424 Amy  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:25:35am

Ariel #371 - Sorry, I don't know of any consolidators for trips to Israel. I booked directly with El Al (I wouldn't fly anything else). I got a round trip business class ticket for less than $1000, which is about the best you're going to do, I think. If you book in advance, you'll get the best price possible.

Thanks to everyone for their kind words.

425 Moe Katz  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:32:31am

#413 Yehudit

What about Shimeon and Levi's appalling ethnic cleansing and honor killing against the Hivites who had taken advantage of their sister Dina? At least the honor killing wasn't directed at the sister, though ... maybe in another 3,000 years the Paleos will be so morally advanced ...

426 Moe Katz  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:42:03am

Caton---vis-à-vis La Bardot :

Bimbo or not, we don't need such allies IMHO.

427 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:50:21am

model 4 and amos..
you armchair generals make me sick...
reading your know it all, cocky drivle makes me sick... i think ill lay off this blog for a few days, till you crawl back into your holes.

428 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:52:42am

#426 Moe Katz

Agreed. She's even too stupid to be a tool.

429 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 11:58:36am

lizzy (#427)

I understand that you're upset, and I know that it's frustrating to read what the "armchair generals" write about Israel when you're there and have to live with the reality of it all, but..., Model4 and Amos are both long-time posters here and well respected. They are frustrated too. Just bear that in mind.

430 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:05:21pm

lizzy (#427)

While clearly not harder than living with what you live through, watching from a distance while the world, even Israel, does nothing is extremely difficult.

So when Amos and Model4 talk about the frustration of Israel not defending herself, I know where they're coming from.

I can't speak for them, but I feel almost guilty. My parents' taxes go to the EU and contribute to the filth that blow up buses and butcher children in their beds. My prime minister and president (dual citizenship) are bludgeoning Israel in to accepting a roadmap that will only end in tragedy.

431 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:05:38pm

i undestand zulu.. but being called a" pussy' and we "should of learned our leassons at aushwitz..". when i had family there... especially today,. who are these people to kick you when your down? jeeeeeeeeeeez...
the may be long term posters, but if this is the calibre of their postings..
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
if theyre frustrated, let them move here. bevome citizens and fucking vote and join the army... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

im going to go check on my " pussy " daughters.. maybe they can go lob some nukes at rammallah tommorow, to appease amos. its only 5 miles form here after all, we will just duck the fallout///grrr , im off to bed, long nasty day

432 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:08:49pm

allright im over sensitive,, sorry sorry sorry
i just hate these " well let me tell you what to do " postings... sorry.
bed

433 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:16:45pm

its just that these people , allof us . not abstracts ot be called" pussies,," we are real popel facing enormous pressures and problems,, there is no one sure fire sloution.. and there frustration cannot even come close to ours...


Six of the seven people killed in the attack were from Pisgat Ze'ev: Shimon Ostinsky, 68; Nellie Perov, 55; Olga Brenner, 52; Marina Tzachivirshvili, 44; Yitzhak Moyal, 64; and Roni Yisraeli, 35. The other, Tawil Ralab, 42, was from the Shuafat refugee camp.

Moyal was employed for 31 years at the post office.
Yisraeli was the deputy manager of the Supersol in Har Nof. Last year, he was saved from the bombing at the SuperSol in Kiryat Hayovel.

Ostinsky immigrated from Ukraine in 1991. Although he had a degree in economics, he worked in a parking lot in the Old City.

Perov immigrated from Khazakstan three years ago, and was on her way to work when killed.
Brenner immigrated from Moldova and worked as a cleaning lady at Israel Radio.

Her daughter, Svetlana, 27, who was also on the bus, was seriously wounded and is in the intensive care unit at Hadassah-University Hospital, Ein Kerem.
Tzachivirshvili worked as a nurse at Shaare Zedek Hospital.
Next article

434 Tiburon  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:17:08pm

#413 Yehudit

Let's also not forget that Begin's Irgun (I believe it was the Irgun, not the Stern that did the King David - it was way too big an operation for the Stern), as reported by Begin in his autobiography and also corroborated by the British Mandatory Authorities after the fact, -
Phoned the King David either 3 or 4 times in the hour before the blast, advising them the hotel was mined, and that there would be an attack, and that they better evacuate.

The officer in charge, (I forget his rank, but he was basically the highest ranking in the country - he died in the blast) was quoted as saying, to effect: - "we aren't going to take orders from a bunch of f-ing' Jews."

The Irgun had stuffed dynamite in milk cans, dozens, and delivered them to the hotel basement that morning.

435 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:17:56pm

#432 lizzy

Over-sensitive? Maybe. Mostly you're just as mad as anybody else, and on the front line.

I just went to check on my kids, too.

436 Colt  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:18:54pm

lizzy

No-one would say that we feel as frustrated as you living in Israel. What makes me so sad is how frustrated and angry and sad I feel; I can't imagine what it must be like for you.

437 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:20:32pm

Actually lizzy, I missed that post by Amos, and I need to apologize to you. I still hold that he is one of the good ones, as is Model4, but I now understand why you are so upset by that post. Throwing Auschwitz in the face of any Jew is cruel. Are we not respected unless every one of us turns into a gun-toting lunatic?

I'm sorry for what you're going through lizzy, but I know you're strong and will carry on. My thoughts are with you.

438 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:26:30pm

lizzy, one other thing. You're certainly not "over-sensitive". None of us sitting in our cushy homes in the US, etc. know what you're going through. As angry, hurt, and frustrated as we are, there is still an abstract element to it whereas for you, it is just the opposite.

439 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:27:32pm

lizzy--hugs.
There's a song my dance teacher used for the cool-down, Shma Yisrael. I don't know who the singer is, she's after my time, but the words just seem to fit the current mood. (Quoting from memory, so they're probably not quite correct.)

Habek oti, Elohai, aseh she-lo ef-kad.
[snip]
Aseh she-yigamer, ki lo notar bi ko'akh.

Trouble is, each time she'd use it for the cool-down I'd cry.

I'd quote the chorus from the ole David Broza song (you know which one), but I don't know that I believe it right now. "U-vayn sin'ah ve-rezakh, medabrim al haShalom."

440 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:31:10pm

#433 lizzy

Can you guess how angry I am at Sharon for not moving seriously against the PLO? I'm thinking about putting him on the same list as Arafat right now.

441 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:42:57pm

awww, thanks to you all.
( and I appologize for my awful spelling)
All i can do right now, as i cant influnce the govt, run amok and kill anybody, is just play it cool!!!
We went to the canyon tonight, bought the kids shoes, The mall was filllllllled with people. The bussess were filled with people, I think any time something like this happens, we all purposely go out and and ACT NORMAL, and just show them that we are here, you can't scare us or make us act like animals. AM ISRAEL CHAI, OD NETSHACH.
thanks for all your concern.,. we are all one family, no matter where we live, and you hurt one memebr of the family you hurt us all. thanks , family!

442 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:48:25pm

and besides, it will take more than terror to keep me away form that sale at Gali.. kids sandals, 99 shekels,, gorgeous!

443 Paladin  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:49:09pm

#399 Model4

You missed my point.

What I can't understand is why Bush would take out someone like Saddam and leave someone like Arafat protected. He knows what Arafat is.

Why is Arafat's wrinkled ass not hanging from a lamp post in Ramallah?

To me, there's no difference between the 3rd ID rolling into Baghdad and the IDF rolling into Arafat's compound.

The objective is the same: To remove a sadistic coward.

444 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 12:51:45pm

#442 lizzy--LOL!
So did you get the Lag B'Omer picture done? And Chag Same'ah for tomorrow night. (In fact, you can make it a "hug" same'ah as well.)

445 Ariel  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:01:26pm

lizzy,

Take care of yourself...I'm hoping that you can relax a little somehow.

Amy,

How did you find a ticket for $1000 in biz? I've been looking on Orbitz, Hotwire, etc and the lowest I could find was around $900 in economy. Where did you find it?

446 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:02:49pm

lizzy (#441)

we are all one family, no matter where we live, and you hurt one memebr of the family you hurt us all.

Exactly! That's the truth of it (and enough to make me cry). It does my heart good to know that people are out and about, living their lives in spite of the savagery. That is the best revenge.

Am Yisrael Chai.

447 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:08:43pm

Ariel,

Bear in mind that Amy lives in New York. I'm in LA, so when I fly to Israel, I have to tag on the price of the flight to New York too. I don't know where you are, but that may have something to do with it. I wouldn't fly on any airline but El Al though. The flight is an experience in and of itself :-)

448 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:08:45pm

Lizzy, If I present a list of friends/family/colleagues and fellow citizens lost to terrorist attacks, do I get to have an opinion that's worth hearing? Perhaps some sympathetic preening from well-wishers? Not saying I have any or don't, on purpose. Not saying anything about myself and some endeavors past and present on purpose. That's my choice, not to be some "man of mystery," but so that what's said here can't be slapped away with "Oh, you obviously feel that way because of X."

Others have shared more, that suits their style, personality and interests, and it doesn't bother me the slightest bit. Just consider using a little more restraint when accusing someone of being an "airmchair general."

You have every right to your pain, grief and fear. So do others. And another sorrow is that these emotions, at best, only buy us a temporary excuse to not make decisions on how best to protect our (not just your) loved ones in the future.

Just to complete things, I have talked about Auschwitz on this blog as well. Don't want to duck that heat either. It used to give me proud goose-bumps to think of the pledge of "Never again." Never again to be stuffed into ovens presumably meant ovens on wheels too. Never again presumably meant to slow genocide as well as fast. And I for one don't wonder how things would have turned out in ghettos across Europe if the Jews had the Nazis outgunned ten-to-one.

A guy in my place right now should arguably have a quite different life, as certainly your family should. The primary thrust for me is ending terrorism and genocide, and it consumes most of what I have to give. Do and advocate what you feel is best, and the Jews and Israel will remain first in my prayers every night. Meanwhile, I'll be trying to prevent the murders from ever happening while you spit in my face. Been there, done that. But there's a lot of Jews from Russia in Israel right now because of "me and my kind." And we were spat upon the whole time we fought their tormenters too.

449 Moe Katz  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:10:14pm

Lizzy, I'm with you completely here. If only it were so simple that Israel could simply 'let the IDF win' and all her problems would be over.

Hang in there.

450 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:11:02pm

CBA.. olol
cute!
YUP got the drawing done,,
we collected tons of wood about a week ago, when there was still some out be had.. neighbours sawed down part of a tree, which is now in our r salon, being nibbled by our pet house bunnies, anything thta was ever made out of a tree has been trundled off by the local kids,, including some scaffolding the neighbours were using for shiputzim,, olol , boy are they in for a surprise!
we had three local ganim doing the class lag be omer fire in the field behind our block,( day early) and they were all doing that silly parents kid rope pull, and the kids were black form the potatoes.. so cute. Bet you remeber that!

i think we will go stake our place out inthe field in the morning,, lol T here are always at least 50 fires going back there, tons of meat grilling, and evryone blabbing with each other, scarfing food.
the girls already have asked if they can be up all night and I said "suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure",,, (by 12 they are both gonzo! lol). they kumzitz hop, and come back with a pita form this fire and that,, neighbourhood tradition..
anyway, ill send you a virtual pita with and humous , kebab, and pickles, and a super chared black potato. yummeroo!
good night evryone!

451 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:22:43pm

model 4
im just a plain old Israeli, and a mother,, who am i to tell you your views aren't correct?
no one!
i just felt that your agreeing with Amos calling us pussies was wrong.sorry.
when your lying down and bloody as we were today, you want a hand up first, before getting the lecture.
i felt Amos was very very crude ands insensitive... my right as well, no?
and what am i supposed to do today? grab an m16 and run amok in rammallah? really!
i vote , i was in the army.. what else can i do that i deserve to be called a pussy, beside become a vigilante? c,mon.
agreeing with a person who said " we didn't learn our lesson " in aushvitz and that we are " fucked up" is beneath you, if the credentials you present about yourself are true.
that's all.' really

452 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:24:20pm

#443 Paladin: There is no moral justification, only political ones. Hey, you brought up votes :) For various reasons we let the Arab world build up a spurious case against Israel without exposing the lies. Well, 30+ years may be "brief" in the halls of power regarding international relations, but since then their decisions have influenced the beliefs of millions of Europeans and Americans. Saddam was an easy sell to show as a Really Bad Guy. Arafat, OTOH, we were branding as the Democratically Elected Peace-Maker just a couple of years ago.

I really think it all boils down to Europe. I Don't think the White House is in the mood to consider what Syria, Egypt, Yemen(!), etc. think about the matter, especially since it's clear who the terrorists are. But look at how stunningly strongly European people and gov'ts came to Saddam's aid! Remember, this is the documented Really Bad Guy with a proven recent track record of nefarity, to put it mildly. No, it's starting to look like politics of their hateful masses, business dealings and strategic interests of Europe, and the latter two of Russia. Apparently Europe is ready to take some drastic (but likely non-military) steps against us and/or Israel should we do what is right in the matter.

453 cba  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:30:37pm

lizzy, I gratefully accept your virtual food!

454 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:36:52pm

Lizzie #451

G-d bless you and yours. It's certainly not my place to tell Israelis what to do, but please explain if you will why there is little apparent hue and cry for the government to allow your wonderful (the world's finest) military from going in to the territories and cleaning out that sewer?

I understand the pressure on the government, but there is no such pressure (that I'm aware of right now) that constrains the people from calling for this type of action.

I don't mean for you to be the spokeswoman for the Israeli people. Any of you posters - Zulu, Caton, Model4, Tib, etc) please give me your thoughts too.

I feel so frustrated. Americans like me have a lot to be ashamed of. I hear very few of us demanding that our government take the shackles off Israel's government and alllow - no encourage - them to do just what we have done in Iraq.

I'm so mad I could spit.

455 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:36:53pm

lizzy, thanks for being kind enough to respond to my stern post. You, upon reflection, will realize that I never called Israelis pussies, nor meant to infer such. An over-arching agreement doesn't mean that one's on board with all the details. Sorry if you took it that way. If anything I feel for the massive strains from about eight-million directions your citizens are under, and for a long time.

My hand to God, Americans would have cracked. To live like this for so long with no "real response," the "inability to do anything," would have done us in. That speaks volumes for your respect for each other and your country and land, as it does a deep clear well of inner strength. I also feel for the international political realities faced by your leaders. But 99 cups of black paint and 1 cup of white no longer mix to equal shades of grey. And more black paint is being added all the time.

As far as not learning the lessons of Auschwitz, that's clearly not the case. But there are many who are purposefully ignoring them. Including we Americans. Yes, it's hard to hear of or cast blame on one's own, but to some degree we're deserving of it. Never forgetting the Arab dictatorships and European enablers as the primary criminals, mind you.

If it helps in the slightest, be aware of how passionately friends around the globe feel for you and yours, and how desperately they want to ease your pain and remove your tormenters. The downside of course is that it drives us all loopy from time to time. You're only going to hear more on this site, I fear, but please try not to take it personally. Know that the "average" Israeli is a hero in all our books. And again, I apologize if it came across that I held disdain for your brothers or sisters as individuals.

456 UziDoesIt  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:40:15pm

#455 Model

Amen to that.

The average Israeli should be a hero to every American. As you pointed out, most of us would have cracked a long time ago....

457 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:50:20pm

UziDoesIt: Great question, one I'm still trying to get a total grip on. But I'm American, which means not having to fear any country, or even all of them combined, so long as we're willing to light up the globe if that's what it takes. Being American, we are.

Israel, strong as she is, doesn't have that luxury. She's also economically vulnerable. You might say "nah, the US will take care of Israel." But how would you feel having your lifeline in the hands of any one country, who has pressures, problems, and relationships of their own. Not a very wise place to put yourself in.

Full out war would mean all kinds of crap from Europe, at least total boycotts. Hell, there's European academics that won't even work with Israeli academics, and this is out in the open!

That said, the winning games look to be unwavering US commitment to winning the war (you're going to have to make us your n*****s too, frogs), a half-way trying non-utterly moronic PR push to get more European citizens back to reality and away from anti-Semitism, better bang-for-the-buck retaliations (you blew up a bus, within 24 hours we blew up Arafat, next time Mazen, next time Yassin, etc.)... same old "cycle of violence" PR-wise, but not one the PLO would with to sustain, or waiting in hope of the Muslim civil unrest in Europe that will turn the Euros against the ME.

Of course, all this could be wrong. And don't forget Israel is infested with leftism too, so they have their blame-Israel-first crowd. And it was unbelievably stupid to have strikes there. Tells the rest of the world the Jews don't have it so bad when they can shut down services and dicker over wages during their "supposed extermination."

Best bet to me is Bush calling in his chips and pressing on with getting rid of the terror in the PLO that is the central driving issue that legitimizes terror around the world and prevents reforms in ME countries. It seems like a fair requirement that Israel get that kind of backing instead of risking existance to fight off another risk to existance.

458 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:56:38pm

model 4,
thank you as well.. im very sorry if i over reacted. i realise that everyone is very frustrated, and like i said, we are all together in our feelings. im sure Amos also didn't mean to sound the way he did either. if think if everyone in this blog contributes something, my contribution is a kind of picture of just being " plain folks' here in Israel.. i cant offer any pithy political analysis other than what i read about , or talk with others about. i cant give you detailed analyses of our govts positions because i don think half of us understand what goes on here half the time!
i do try and watch the countless political shows here, which always end up with everyone shouting and waving there arms about simultaneously. we have strikes we have un employment , lots of tsuris... seems like everything here sometime is just such a struggle.. the whole picture .. so its hard for me to be analytical, just emotional sometimes, when i see the situation here discussed in a rational way. i tend to lash out, which is what i did with you.. does that make sense?
I dorespect the opinions and knowledge of othersb and sort out what i feel is the truism. what i can offer here is my own personal experiences as a Jerusalemite, and hopeful show the human face of typical Israelis, in as much as any of us, form all different backgrounds, are typical.
( i also offer rotten spelling, but that's because im an artist and use the right side of my brain lol)
you sound like lovely person, im sending you a big cup of coffee via the internet, and cookies for all...

459 alexbmn  Sun, May 18, 2003 1:59:42pm

Amos obviously overreacted. He expressed in a rather insensitive form some feeling that often creep into me after every homicide bombing. But i know they arent true. A million Israelis feel like I do. But what is there left too say. i read in Haaretz that the SHIT FUCKED UP ISRAELI GOVERMENT will not do anything because they "want to give Abu Mazen another chance".i dont need to explain anyone on this board why reading that line nearly made me explode. But this goverment has been democratically elected by a large majority. Do Israelis like buses exploding every three weeks? Maybe because the bombings no longer happen every week they consider this goverment's policy a success? I'd lke an answer.

460 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:04:54pm

thanks uzi!
i cannot give you anything remotely satisfactory as an answer.. my own emotions run from smoke em all, to who exactly are you going to fight? the kids in school? plain civilians? the great strenght and weakness of the israeli people? we have souls.

461 lizzy  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:09:27pm

good night all!
have a happy lag b omer ,to anyone whos celebrating, and dont eat too much barbeque.
lets hope tommorrow is a bit brighter.
thanks to evryone, and lila tov!!!

462 alexbmn  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:18:44pm

I just read a statement by Avigdor Lieberman head of the National Union.He advocated a total relentless war against the terrorists. But his party only got eight seats. What hope is there?

463 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:29:06pm

You're too kind lizzy. A bright light (and a hot candle!) Best wishes.

464 zulubaby  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:31:39pm

G-d knows I hate Kofi Annan.

Kofi Annan: Latest "murderous attacks" must not derail peace process

"The secretary-general urges the Palestinian leadership to do everything in its power to de-legitimize and stop terrorism. He calls on the government of Israel to show restraint, to act in conformity with its obligations under international humanitarian law and to ensure that its security forces take measures to protect the safety of civilians in the occupied Palestinian territories," the statement said.

Throws something vague at the "Palestinian leadership" (and such leadership it is) about stopping terrorism, but Israel, according to Mr. Annan, should show restraint in its retaliation for 4 terrorist attacks in one day, be sure to behave like good little children and conform to the international humanitarian laws (whatever the hell those are supposed to be that they only apply to the "Palestinians"), and be sure to protect the "Palestinian" civilians from harm because, well, it's the least the IDF can do, seeing as though the "Palestinians" are always ever so respectful of the Israeli civilians. And of course he had to throw in the OCCUPIED "Palestinian" territories. What a vile piece of human garbage. He makes me sick.

465 Paladin  Sun, May 18, 2003 2:59:43pm

#452 Model4

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.

I disagree we we let the Arab world build up a spurious case against Israel. The lies have always been the same and I've never believed what the PLO or any other Arab state has had to say about Israel.

I also disagree about Europe. First of all, we are talking about "OLD Europe" as Secretary Rumsfeld has so accurately described it. The reason they wanted Saddam to remain in power was purely economic. That, and they hated to see the US succeed in anything. A cultural thing.

All I am asking is why Bush can't see that the 3rd ID rolling into Baghdad to take out Saddam is any different from the IDF rolling into Ramallah to take out Arafat?

466 bigel[deleted]  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:22:39pm
467 Amos2  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:24:10pm

I should point out that there are two Amoses rather than let him get the blame for my bad mouth. Obviously someone else posts under this name on this board, alot more regularly than me. This however, is the name I've used for ages on numerouse lefty boards like Warblogger watch to torment the pinheads.

Lizzy: No, I don't expect you to 'get an M16 and go crazy in ramallah', women with children are not typically expected to form the front line of a modern mechanised army. I don't expect the IDF to 'go crazy in ramallah' either, just serve it's damn pupose as a proffesional army.

I and alot of people are losing patience with the endless jewish capacity for matyrdom. In Russia, Germany you had no army. Here you do. The enemy is the same, he wants the same, to kill you. All. Your children included.

As a nation you need to get off your asses and do what is necessary, or stop complaining. If it is the fate of Jews so be endlessly slaughtered because they won't fight back, so be it.

If my country was attacked like this, every day, it would mean war. Real war, ruthless war. And yes, I'd be signing up, since I'm of fighting age, and take my chances.

Because we don't put up with that kind of bullshit, we won't live at the mercy of murdering scum. We'd rather kill them and burn their cities, and if they persist in fighting, kill them all. If you're too squeamish to do that, then fine. Let them kill you, endlessly.

Sorry, but you can have as much terrorism as you want, or as little. You're not weak, you just won't fight.

Your mercy and restraint are just buying more arab hatred. Time to give the arabs what they want- a war.

468 NC  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:36:53pm

bigel--Just maybe this guy. Quote:

[T]he end will be that we cannot win this war by points. If we will not win it in a knockout we will lose it by points. A war of attrition we will lose -- we are losing. In America you learned a lesson: Never enter a war where you don’t intend to win.

469 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:44:59pm

#466 bigel,

I'm very curious about Ariel Sharon' s so-called lack of action. He certainly has the resources to pick off Arafat without making it look like he ordered it.

Sharon is certainly no wimp, and if Arafat was killed under circumstances out of Sharon's control, then the US can not hold him responsible.
I wonder what it is that makes Arafat more valuable alive than dead. It may simply be that so long as Arafat is alive, the power struggle and lack of cohesion in the PA are guaranteed. I'm not so sure things would be much different if he was dead, but certainly while he is alive, one can bet that they will bicker and struggle among themselves (or at least play like they are).

470 Paladin  Sun, May 18, 2003 4:58:22pm

#466 bigel

I'd love to give Netanyahu another "shot."

471 Mitch Polka  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:08:05pm

#468 NC

You beat me to it.

472 zaza  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:10:44pm

#467 Amos2

I and alot of people are losing patience with the endless jewish capacity for matyrdom. ....As a nation you need to get off your asses and do what is necessary, or stop complaining

You gotta be kidding, aren't you confusing the Israelis with the palis here?? hello??

You don't think Israelis realise and live on their own skin that threat to them and their children every fucking day? for gosh's sake.

Everyone wishes there was a firmer response against terrorism, but what is this shifting of the blame really? I really don't get it, terrorists strike, and you get mad with, ah the Jews!, for being pussies? isn't that specular to blaming them for being "zionazis" as the IndyMedia folk do? I don't know, it's warped for sure.

If my country was attacked like this, every day, it would mean war. Real war, ruthless war


Yeah right, you're talking like you flattened Saudi Arabia and Egypt right away on 9/12. Excuse me while I raise a toast to that ruthlessness...

It's the real world, you don't fight wars based on what you'd wish to see alone. You wanna be a political leader, go ahead and place yourself in Sharon's or even Bush's shoes. Go ahead and try. Better still, go ahead and place yourself in the shoes of Israeli citizens. Wtf do you think you are to preach like that?

Your mercy and restraint are just buying more arab hatred

Do I sense a theme of "...we had 9/11 because of you whiners not killing all the Arabs first" here? how fucking logical, let alone fair or true, is that? can we follow that "logic" and shift the blame for Arab hatred a little bit more on the hated? how about we hate all Americans too then? fair enough? how about, American - and the rest of the world's - business deals with Saudis are buying us more arab hatred... Every time we drive a car we're buying ourselves more Arab hatred. This computer is plastic, hence buying us more arab hatred... sorry I finished the platitudes.

473 Mitch Polka  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:19:42pm

#471 continued
But first some way has to be found to neutralize the Left.
The Blame America First hyenas were partly done in by the combined effects of 911 & GWII.
What will it take to similarly discredit Meretz?
A significant number of the people we so desperately want to protect vote for their own 5th column.

Amos, you WERE pretty crude but, goldang it guy, I understand your lashing out as the emotional whiplash of your real desire for Israelis to live in peace. Try doing what I do: I go out in the yard & throw rocks into the woods until the rage has subsided & I feel I can re-enter a conversation with my friends.

474 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 5:47:24pm

bigel: Bibi has said he would at the very least deport Arafat in the event of continued terrorism, and he says he's got a great record of tamping down terrorism in the past for making it clear that Arafat would pay in the event of unpleasantness. These are his words though, and I'm no expert, plus the future-looking stuff are the words of a politician, so take them with a grain of salt. Others with much more knowledge though have said that Bibi comes with many drawbacks and isn't as wanted/trusted by the Israelis as a whole.

Paladin: Where to start bud? First, just because you can see the lies doesn't mean that millions can't. I'll admit to having many media-influenced misconceptions that have melted away after getting better education on matters. This coming from an American perspective, and as bad as our press can be, we've seen the European press, even outside "Old Europe," as much worse. Don't forget the case of Spain, where 90% of the people wanted to keep Saddam in power, even though the government decided otherwise (and who knows what the cost of that was). The only other alternative is to say most of these people know the truth and back monsters like Arafat anyhow. In which case we've got much bigger problems than previously thought.

Bush knows the moral case for removing Arafat by force and the parallels with Saddam. We also knew the Russians needed to fall, but the costs of taking the fight directly to them would have been too high. There are costs to us taking out Arafat that must have been prohibitive at least up until today. Remember just how much wheeling and dealing we had to do in the Arab world and in Europe just a couple of months ago. Taking out the fish any sooner would have busted the key Iraqi operation that has us in position now.

Maybe now things have changed enough, but it's been a very short time in the scheme of things, with much work still to do in Iraq and Saudis, Syrians, Iranians and N. Koreans to lean on. Interesting that the roadmap was sprung now. Perhaps a good sign Bush wants things to come to a head sooner rather than later, one last chance with no prayer in Hell to show the world Arafat can't be reasoned with. The lack of elections and the continuing terrorism surely have Bush pissed off, and he's never going to forgive the fish over the Karine A, nor the Americans that have died in Israel (as well as, or course, the Israelis).

475 Ariel  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:23:01pm

Model4 #474,

and he's never going to forgive the fish over the Karine A, nor the Americans that have died in Israel (as well as, or course, the Israelis).

The majority of Americans who've died in Israel are Jews, so they don't count in terms of America's priorities. The handful of non-Jews include Ste Pancake and some right-wing Christians; to the media, Ste Pancake is a Saint, and her death should be mourned - the right-wing Christians had it coming for liking Jews to much (just like the Jews).

Have you noticed how we dispatched a bunch of FBI investigators to the Saudi entity as quickly as we could? And have you noticed how our courageous government didn't give a hoot about Hebrew University, despite the Americans killed, other then to issue a routine "strong condemnation"?

476 zaza  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:37:21pm

Model4: you are right about the europress and public opinion, but you are overestimating its power (or motives, for that matter). I would guess that the risk assessment calculations on how the Arabs, Muslims, Muslims with oil a.k.a. Saudis, Muslims with nukes a.k.a. Iran or Syria or last but not least Pakistan would react to an attack on Arafat & associates has much more relevance than any media or public opinion alone, and even more than possible retaliatory measures (?) by the euro caliphates which are really not in a position to retaliate about anything. These are factors that can be ignored, the former aren't.

Or it could be a matter of convenience. I think that, like PDM said, taking out Arafat is not worth the hassle.

I don't know, just guessing, but I don't think that public opinion here is the main problem. It is a problem that can be overcome once the conditions to act and convenience to act is there. The war on Iraq happened anyway, didn't it, popular opinion turned around, and where it didn't, tough shit. But it happened because it could happen right at that time and there were less risks than benefits, not because of some massive alignment of popular consent.

Against terrorism, it'll always be a case of not doing enough. I don't think it's fair or realistic, though, to equate not doing enough with doing nothing.

I'll go read ArabNews now to get some optimistic perspective on how supermegapowerful Israel is already wiping out the scum...

477 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:40:40pm

I'm of two minds there Ariel. Action-wise, it's inexcusable. Belief-wise, I think Bush's heart is in the right place and is trying to act in a way to ensure the greater good for America and Israel. And I've got hope he's actually on the right track, though it's hard not to despair from time to time.

Bush most likely puts slightly more emphasis on American life than any other, and rightfully so for a man in his position. I don't believe he feels any less remorse when a Jew dies compared to a Christian. It sure feels like that sometimes though. Made an ass of myself at a friend's dinner when someone mentioned a bombing in Israel last year and I said something like "No big deal, only Jews died." Of course they weren't privy to the thoughts in my head, that it "seems like" that makes the difference. Whoo boy, still feel bad about that, but was just so stressed and mad about the double-standard that it popped out. Guess it was a fishing expedition to hear someone else say that they were as outraged about it as me.

Oh, and I'm not trying to insinuate that you're an ass! Just venting.

478 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:44:40pm

#466 bigel

I am hearing a lot of gripes about Sharon being a wimp, especially from Caton.

Well then, who in Israel WOULD have the guts to say "Fuck you" to the world and go in and wipe these scum out?

Bibi. And this time, he'd get the support he needs.

479 Ben F  Sun, May 18, 2003 6:54:56pm

#478 Caton--

The problem with Bibi is that he has a total lack of understanding of one thing--the importance of Israeli unity. Sharon is viewed as a divisive figure by the rest of the world, but most Israelis back him. Bibi is all to willing and eager to go it alone, and he divides the country, and thereby weakens it.

480 Model4  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:10:19pm

#476 zaza: Overall, you're probably right. Europe can retaliate in big ways against us or Israel, but we can make life a lot worse for them than the other way around. So they won't.

Syria and Iran with nukes? Sheesh! While never mentioned through any channels I'm aware of, it's surely a possibility. They'd have the will to use them too, if the rulers weren't too afraid of the consequences, or thought they could pass one off to terrorists in a hope the source couldn't be traced. Pakistan too of course, or maybe the fear it could spark off a conflict between them and India.

As far as American terror apologists go, I don't know. Seems like it'd be even worse than the Saddam run-up, as there was an active, hard-hitting and lengthy campaign to demonize him (deservedly so), and kid gloves when discussing the PLO and their minions. If this changes, that'll be a great sign. But Arafat is a hero to the liberals, the Jordyptians alive and dead already martyrs, and the Israelis (not Jews, wink) villians. Another factor is how we really haven't played up Israel as an ally other than ashamedly and half-heartedly, which matters to some Americans.

That PR war can be won though, but it'd be interesting from a political perspective. Is the nation too weary of war? What about the costs in a sluggish economy? Is it a war against Islam? Are we in a perpetual imperialistic hegemon colonialist war? And how much of their necks do the leftie agitators and politicians want to lay on the chopping block after their spanking over Iraq? With a little bit of groundwork though, it should be a slam-dunk to sell to the people, and France, Germany, Russia and the UN have been neutralized as respected dissenting voices. And the good news is that the Dems are twitching for a topic to gain traction with, so some are starting to rattle the cage that we're not doing enough. Which plays right into the hands of those who think we should do more.

481 Caton  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:10:57pm

#479 Ben F

Bibi is all too willing to put Israel's survival before Israel's unity. You are absolutely right. And you know what? Labour can suck my dick, and Peres can keep spreading 'em for Arafat. Bibi's right. It's time for Israel to undestand that.

482 Ariel  Sun, May 18, 2003 7:18:43pm

Model4,

Actually, I'm of two minds as well. And sorry about having the bitterness show through so thickly.

See, if our investigations in the Saudi entity et al were real investigations complete with Arabic-speaking FBI agents and actually pointed the finger at the real perpetrators of the attacks and their backers, I could say that I thought the reason Israel was different is because we can be confident that their government will do its utmost to hunt down the killers of our citizens. Unfortunately, the FBI investigation will be a farce; wouldn't want to offend "our friends" the Saudis.

So one the one hand, we shouldn't investigate in Israel b/c they'll try to do it anyway. But on the other hand, we know damn well who the perpetrators are, and we should do what we can to help Israel track them down.

483 PDM  Sun, May 18, 2003 10:51:54pm

It looks like they have a couple of really sick cartoons in the latest anti-LGF thread at Nazimedia.
They are very demented "people" there.

484 Red Ogre  Mon, May 19, 2003 4:41:58am

If only Hitler and Stalin had chosen Muslims instead of Jews the would be a much better place today.

485 Frank IMC  Mon, May 19, 2003 4:57:12am

#483 PDM -

Yes, I saw that one. Truly sickening. The thing I find curious - was Sharon intentionally drawn to appear uncircumcised?

486 Colt  Mon, May 19, 2003 7:45:47am

Any Israelis - is Bibi likely to become PM again? He was Foreign Sec, right? Then he had a row with Sharon and got moved to Home Sec or Economics Minister or something similar?

487 Amy  Mon, May 19, 2003 12:27:59pm

Ariel -
I got the price directly from El Al. Sorry this response is somewhat late.

***

I think that the problem is that Bush and everybody else has bought into the supremely stupid idea that terrorism is fueled by Arab rage at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and that solving it (like pulling our troops out of Saudi Arabia) will deprive the terrorists of one of their main grounds for recruiting and carrying out attacks. You see this mantra repeated ad nauseum everywhere, from mainstream editorials to King Abdullah of Jordan (supposedly a "moderate").

It is in the U.S.'s national interest to reduce terrorism. If the above is true (I don't think it is, but Bush apparently does), it follows from that premise that resolving the conflict between Israel and the Pals is also in the U.S.'s interest.

The next question that arises is how to resolve that conflict. Obviously, Bush, et al. don't consider a full-scale military action by Israel or the forcible transfer of the Pals elsewhere to be viable options.

So what does that leave? A wet dream that someone like Mazen, painted in the most optimistic colors, will arise and, magically, transform the Pals into a reasonable, peaceful, tolerant democratic society and that Arafat will magnanimously step aside and allow him to succeed.

Can Israel do whatever it likes regardless of whether the U.S. approves? I think we all know that answer to that one. And that's the essential difference between the U.S.'s actions in Iraq and Israel's dilemma - the U.S. has the military, political and economic power to tell the rest of the world to piss off. Israel doesn't.

488 Paladin  Mon, May 19, 2003 2:52:59pm

#488 Amy

But Israel DOES have the power to tell the so-called "Palestinians" to piss off. And the timing couldn't be better, what with no more Iraqi missles aimed in their direction.

Without having to watch their back, the IDF could make very short work of the PLO "leadership" and open up the region to REAL negotiations--negotiations with people who don't have guns pointed at their heads.

489 Gil Ronen  Mon, May 19, 2003 3:08:35pm

quark2 #384:

Ah, OK. Good.

(belatedly).

490 Amy  Tue, May 20, 2003 12:36:32pm

Paladin #488 -

It's not a question of whether the Israelis have the power to tell the "Palestinians" to piss off (that's understood), but whether they have the power to tell the U.S. and everybody else to do so; I don't think they do.

Bush has committed himself to the "road map," and I don't think that Israel can take steps that are contrary to the plan without making Bush look bad. This matter has to be handled delicately. The Pals are already bleating about how they have "accepted the Road Map in its entirety," while Israel has raised objections to it (which the Pals equate with obstructionism). They are scoring PR points with this crap.

The U.S. made a mistake in endorsing the Road Map so unequivocally, because by doing so, we have backed Israel into a corner from which she must now attempt to extricate herself.

491 RobbieFal  Tue, May 20, 2003 7:28:57pm

Hola good sirs.

It appears that you have linked my website.

I know this because I read this page quite often.

Plus, I searched for Tomas because I am a whore for feedback. Yes, I admit it.

To know the truth of Tomas Mendosa. You have to read my page.

Click now or die trying

But, rest assured. I did not post my insane rants with intent to harm anybody. Hey, I think I went a bit over the top. Although, I might have pulled off the role well.

To reply to some of what Frank had to say.

"Fuck you, Tomas Mendosa, you self-hating Marrano pig."

I had to search for Marrano there. But, Mendosa never struck me as a Jewish last name. Tomas would be from Mexico, if he was an actual guy and not, what we would call a "Sockpuppet"

I have more replies on the other thread.

Rock over London.
Rock on Chicago.


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