Seems like they have so much in common with the French.

This is the only thing that gives me hope:

Somehow the sun yet rises over Palestine; and while it does there is still a chance for peace. We are tangent to the sphere of hope. The only real opportunity for success lies in the people of Palestine, and in the followers of Islam on the global theatre. And today there are signs that the people, despite the outright threat of death by the zealots ruling their lands, are waking up and seizing one last opportunity for their children to become scientists instead of watching them scatter in the wind.

In an unusual protest, about 600 Beit Hanoun residents blocked a main thoroughfare with trash cans, rocks and burning tires to show their anger at the militants and Palestinian Authority officials.

"They (the militants) claim they are heroes," said Mohammed Zaaneen, 30, a farmer, as he carried rocks into the street. "They brought us only destruction and made us homeless. They used our farms, our houses and our children ... to hide."

first?

I knew that was _way_ too much typing to have any hope.

Interesting.
I totally agree with you Charles. I am not buying it.

And, even if Islam was going to get around to an Enlightenment (Giant IF), there is no way we can wait for it.

After being through the Enlightenment, we (the West) KNOW freedom is better than tyranny and we KNOW reason is superior to dogma. There is no need to wait for them to discover this while they murder us.

We have every right to impose proper moral conduct on these backward societies.

Wonderful news! The major backers of Hamas are "changing."

Next lie please.

When there are millions of the zealot crazy militant Islamozoids, I'm not very optimistic. I haven't seen enough yet to convince me that the Arab world suddenly wants to be reasonable. As we say, the proof is in the pudding.

I don't think anyone in their right mind who follows world events believes the Islamozoids are ready to change.

What these stories mean is that the silent minority that truly does want peace is beginning to speak up in spite of having watched their like minded friends get executed in the streets.

Turmoil from within may make this unwanted job of cleaning up Islam's mess a bit easier in the end, that's all.

the western enllightenment began with the reformation/counter reformation-the rise of the bourgeois-the industrial revolution and some really brave scientists philosophers and leaders--it didn't happen based on a week and a half's worth of nespaper column's from some dudes who are scared for their personal safety and cash

In this editorial from today at arab news, although stating some improved concepts, it ends with islam being the biggest victim of the latest soddy attacks.

[Link: www.arabnews.com...]

[Link: www.arabnews.com...]

The second article notes three events:

The election of Menachem Begin, leading to "...a new criminal wave of Jewish terrorism which continues today under Ariel Sharon."

The election of "...Pope John Paul, a Pole, collaborated closely with the Reagan administration. This was the beginning of the neo-conservative movement, which has now reached its zenith with the presence of the Israeli gang inside the Bush team: Men like Wolfowitz, Perle and others who have put Israel’s interests at the heart of US foreign policy."

"Finally, In 1979, the Islamic revolution took place in Iran and increased the appetite of extremist Islamists for violence as a means of achieving their political agenda."

It's all the results of actions by others, don't you see? We didn't have anything to do with it.

obviously "newspaper"----preview please

Don't forget government control of the press in Saudi Arabia. Broad editorial lines are set by the government in frequent meetings with editors, not by free journalists with agendas of their own. And we all know what the government line is these days - "this has to stop!"

So even though I have a fat wallet ready, which I would gladly empty, I just don't buy the big change story either.

I do think there is some raw fear involved. Many of the powers that be in Saudi are indeed in al Qaeda's black books for being insufficiently antisemitic and anti-Western. Now those powers are feeling the heat - seeing your property developer friend's son and your private banker getting blown up in Riyadh is not the same as a bunch of Yankee grunts getting shredded in their desert barracks.

But so what. Raw fear is miles away from the real change of heart that is needed in Saudi. If AQ lays off in Saudi, or goes back to nailing a GI here or there every once in a while, I bet Saudi goes back to business as usual. Barring, of course, application of the very heavy US pressure so many of us have demanded for so long, apparently, right up to the present, in vain.

So, curiously enough, angry Saudi watchers with a Machiavellian bent may as well root for al Qaeda. If they keep this up, maybe, just maybe even the Saudis will learn a thing or two, some 20 months after the rest of us.

But even then, wasn’t 9/11 rather self-explanatory? Do you really need to see a compound go – rather than the WTC - to get the message? Even if there are isolated individuals who get it now – Khaled, despite my scepticism, may well be one of them – what the hell took them so long?

No deal, Khaled. Show me a better trade first. A much better trade.

I'm with "Charles" on this one. All history points to Saudi complicity with terrorism and exporting hatred, death and decay. Now that the Toto of the blog world has slowly pulled the massive curtain back on the House of Saud, we're to pay no attention to the little man that's been revealed.

"There were no Saudis on those planes. In fact, they were Jews. And it was America's fault anyhow. We will not give you passenger lists from flights headed from our country to yours. We will not cut ties with the Taliban, nor will we let you fight them or Saddam from our soil. We have cut off all funding to terror. Whoops, you've found some more? We'll really do it this time. No, you can't check our methods or books. We will not stop our telethons to fund terrorists. We will continue to have our state-approved clerics calling for the death of Infidels. We..." on and on and on. All the ways their "ally" was treated after 9/11.

Oh sure, sometimes we'd publicize one of these outrages, and they'd deny it as if we were idiots. Or say "We're looking into it, happy now?" Or have some numb-nuts write what the West wants to hear in their state-controlled media, and as soon as the heat's off, back to business as usual. Handed over the adult US citizens that are held in your Kingdom without being convicted of any crime yet? You see my concern.

Is it possible they're devoting every resource to totally turning things around? Theoretically. Would I bet my life on it? Hell no. And I hope Bush doesn't bet my life on it either.

How about this? As a show of good faith in their newly gleaned wisdom, the House of Saud can make a proclamation allowing women to drive cars.

Talk is cheap. Let's see something solid.

(Yeah, right, like anything will change.)

The Saudi words are ok, as far as words go. But talk is cheap. I put no value on what they say to the West. I want to know what is being taught in the madrassas that they are sponsoring. And most of all, I will judge them by their actions.

Let's see a full investigation by the US of the recent terrorism incident in Wahhabi-land. If the Saudi royals continue to say that the US is not going to conduct an investigation, is not going to be permitted to take any initiative, but only assist in the Saudi "investigation"/coverup, then it will be clear to everyone that nothing at all has changed that makes any difference.

Better babbling to the West doesn't count for anything at all; actions count.

It is totally irrelevent to the equation what their behavior or commentary is in English which is always aimed at Western audiences. As shocking in its David Duke-esque way that Arab News is, this was and is the Saudi face for Western consumption. So now they've been temporarily frightened into lowering the decibel level for us -- maybe. That means nothing. All that matters is what they say to themselves in Arabic.

Taquiyyah pour les kufrs--n'est pas

let's see the arabnews interview a high ranking sudairi prince who says what this editor is saying--and i don't mean sending that worm al-jubair out to spin--let one of them put his ass on the line with the rest of the royal family and the ulema and then maybe- if he doesn't have an accident -we can infer a miniscule change in sentiment in a faction of this nefarious clan

Scenes we'd like to see:

Headline in Arab News "We were wrong about the Jews," say Islamite scholars, who apologized for the hatred and anti-Semitism they've stirred up over the last 1200 years. "Turns out that we've been moral turds all these years, and it's time to reject our hatreds and join the world in condemning violence and terror. We also support the establishment of a safe Jewish homeland in Israel, and we hereby recognize the complete and sovereign right of the Jews to exist as a people, safe from harm. And we will arrest and imprison any mullah or sheik who dares to speak against these People of the Book."

Yeah, that'd be great. As likely as the Grench admitting that they were wrong about the Iraq regime.

we should send our rockstar PRINCE over to riyadh with a million dollar relief check for the families of the victim's which should be handed over with a little speech of sympathy for the misfortunate occurance coupled with a caveat on royal corruption and insufficient religiosity a a root cause of the incident

After 9/11 the arab press was running some of the most anti-semetic shit out there from dizzy izzy shamir and a host of others. Oh, and remember Fisk's article on being beaten up while in Afganistan where he understood why it happened because he was from the opressive 'west'. Since then the house of saud has hired a D.C. public relations firm to improve the immage of islam in the US and act as a counter balance to the zionist controlled US media. Until I see real changes in the anti-semetic, anti-christian, anti-every-other-religion, anti-American rhetoric emminating from the mosques I'm placing this under the heading of Bill Whittle's Leprechaun 'MAGIC' from yesterdays post.

Yeah, little green men with tin foil hats.

If I remember correctly, it was Joe Katzman who tried to honestly engage with the corniche stolling, camel's-ass John Bradley, only to be jolted into the reality that the famous Dartmouth grad did not want anything to do with honest debate.

Joe before you get to excited, remember the old addage:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

They're not "changing." They merely saw a demonstration of the lone superpower's military competence closer than they would have liked.

They realize what a miscalculation they made when predicting our response to 9/11.

It's called crawfishing.

#22 Juliette -

Sorry, I'm not from Louisiana - translation?

BTW, I LOOOVE Crawfish.

Frank,

I'm not from Lousiana either.

to crawfish (as I understand it)=to back off one's tough postion in the face of a tougher opposing position by appearing to agree with the opponent.

Wasn't "crawfishing" so much shorter and to the point (and easy to define from the context)? :-P

Posted on Winds of Change:

Joe, give us a break. The Saudis have *always* been sensitive to US public opinion. Back in the 1970s and 1980s they trumpeted their religiosity to the born-again Texans who pumped their oil because it sold. They made analogies between Ibn Saud and cowboys because it sold.

Charles is right and you are wrong.

I don't care how much you and Charles may have in common, if you are taken in one tiny little bit by this then you are mistaken. This is no wedge. It is simply an illusion.

At the moment, it's only talk. But, it's easy to check: if the Saudis stop funding terrorism, then it's real. That includes stopping the 'charities'. If money still goes to CAIR & others in a week, then it's the same charade again. Simple.

In a few days we'll know for sure.

Okay, I posted this link on an earlier thread and in fact, had sent Charles a link to the original Arab News article from which the Salon article stemmed. Silly me--I had thought just for a second--a tiny moment--that I saw a flash of insight in the Arab world's eyes. Guess not!

I'm willing to be guided and most of you think this is eyewash--it's just that I'd NEVER heard any of this before from an Arab--NEVER!

But they're not great horse traders for nothing and the whole idea is to make the other guy think he's getting a deal while not moving your position one iota.

Okay, I only raised it originally and again today because it seemed to be unusual speak coming from the Middle East.

BTW, what were the sermons from last week--was it the same old rants?

I can still wish, though, can't I?

I wish it were true and I wish the Muslims and Islam in general were looking inward and asking themselves what they are doing wrong and how can they change it.

Their hearts are changing from jet black to a dark charcoal shade.

Elizabeth,

First comes a change of rhetoric, then a change of heart, and then the will to act.

Hope and prepardness are not mutally exclusive and both are virtues. :)

I would be a believer if they would start with changing their basic biology. All the madness emanates from this base.

Excerpt from NY Times May 1, 2003 (by Sarah Kershaw not Jayson Blair - if that means anything)

Across the Arab world today an average of 45 percent of married couples are related, according to Dr. Nadia Sakati, a pediatrician and senior consultant for the genetics research center at King Faisal Specialist Hospital in Riyadh.

In some parts of Saudi Arabia, particularly in the south, where Mrs. Hefthi was raised, the rate of marriage among blood relatives ranges from 55 to 70 percent, among the highest rates in the world, according to the Saudi government.

Widespread inbreeding in Saudi Arabia has produced several genetic disorders, Saudi public health officials said, including the blood diseases of thalassemia, a potentially fatal hemoglobin deficiency, and sickle cell anemia. Spinal muscular atrophy and diabetes are also common, especially in the regions with the longest traditions of marriage between relatives. Dr. Sakati said she had also found links between inbreeding and deafness and muteness.

The Saudi policy of paying off al Qaida while giving Washington lip service has utterrlyfailed. They now have al Qaida rampant in their society- an evil human disease that can only be cured by ruthless measures and until they do, they are not admitting they have the disease:

-Crack down on the militants preachers
-Crack down on any funder- royal family or not
-Stop arming Syria
-Recognize Israel- if you want to tell people which side you are on, this speaks worlds- Israel in turn will help the Saudis fry al-Qaida from one end of the middle east to other
-Issue fatwas against ALL terror groups- the whole alphabet soup- including Hizbullah and the al Aqsa Martyr brigades- any group that uses suicide bombing must be declared an enemy of Islam and all practicioners or assiters of suicide bombing are declared apostates
-Arrest everyone whose last name is bin Laden- you don't know which are guilty but the family has supported Osama for years and hostages work better than payoffs. (plus you get to sieze their assets and give them to loyal princes!)
-Prince bin Talal needs serious incarceration too.
-Liberalize their society at once, give their people hope that there will be a Saudi rule of law fair to all.
- Immediately begin steps to create a constitutional monarchy.

When you see any of these steps you are premitted to believe the Saudis have got the message, until then, they are just throwing a goat out of the tent in the hope that the danger lurking outside will go away.

The Saudis are deeply hated by their own people and all of those around them.

J. Lichty (#21)...

Yes, I recall that. Guess you didn't follow the link, because I specifically mention and link to that episode. Nor am I advancing the proposition that this is a full-scale change of heart.

I do think that dismissing these developments outright is a big mistake, however, for reasons I explain over at Winds of Change.NET. Read it and keep going into the comments section (much shorter than LGF's), and I think you'll grok what I'm talking about.