Let's hope we capture Saddam soon so more of these folks start talking & showing us where the goods are.

uh duh charles, can't you tell they were planted there?

/

OT:
"Mahathir's Party Hands Out Anti-Semitic Books"
reuters

*grits teeth* Wait for confirmation, wait for confirmation. Too many times we've jumped on the beginning of a story, only to find that the actual story was nothing of the type (or nonexistent, getting dropped completely the next day).

Again, after 60-70 "WMD discoveries", remember Steven Den Beste's 48 hour rule.

I used to also say I'd believe it only if it came from Rummy's, Bush's, or Blair's lips. But with Bush and Rumsfeld blowing smoke on nuclear issues they knew, or should have known was false...and the latest mess of them crowing about WMD trailers that are beginning to look like they were used as the Iraqis said...for making hydrogen for Met balloons...I'll believe it if Powell or Blair says it's so.

Note: the troops found documents marked "top secret." Of course we don't know what they're about yet -- but that doesn't mean I shouldn't even mention the report.

like we cair what the RantingButtHead 'thinks'

we dont CAIR

Boy, I hope they get the goods. "The boy who cried Wolfowitz" crap has to stop.
Sam Donaldson was on KTRH here in HOU yesterday, saying how hard it will be for the US, and impossible for Blair in the UK, to do anything about Iran or North Korea because of the WMD thing. Anyone w/ an ounce of brains would know Bush would not have falsified WMD in Iraq, because after the war was over, well, here we'd be.

I'm hoping someone cracks and says the WMD's were sent to Syria and Iran, so ( as if we needed one) we'd have a really good excuse to invade the top 2 state sponsors of terrorism.

...and what happened to all those miles of tunnels under Baghdad? Have they all been explored for WMD. The reputed number and size of them was legendary. So what's happened when our troops went down there? Did they find anything?

For a War Democrat like me the main issue was always destroying Saddam's hideous regime, but it will sure make things easier for the U.S. if we've finally uncovered the long-sought WMD data. I'm crossing my fingers that this time we have the goods.

Elizabeth #9

Do you have a source for that? I've heard the rumour, but I'm not sure where it came from.

Ploome - you are a ditzy lady with no clue of WMD construction, usage, history. I, on the other hand, do have some knowledge and expertise.

You typically post by rejecting the opinion or stated facts of anyone you disagree with on purely ideaological grounds.

There is a word describing people that adopt that modus operandi (fanatic).

You do not dispute the highly valuable Steve Den Beste rule. (60-70 bogus WMD stories in the past 3 months were one-day wonders followed by a "nevermind") You do not rebutt the emerging opinion that the WMD trailers copy a British design used for producing hydrogen. CIA analysts call the canvas covers and no containment shell on the trailers a dead giveaway. And, yes, we now find out that the US intelligence community knew the Niger yellowcake documents were fake but beat the drum at the UN nevertheless to pump up the "clear and present danger" hype.

And, not a gram of WMD has been found. And, not a single Iraqi in our hands has said where any of it is despite immunity offers and substantial financial inducements.

Learn to deal with the facts and ideas presented, not the messenger. You will be able to contribute more positively if you do. Ideaology has its place Ploome...obviously...but not when you fixate on your own notions to the extent that you reflexively discount anything who disagrees with you says...another hallmark of the fanatic.

My sister insists that there's more to the story about al-tuwaitha (sp?) and that WMD were found there but I've not heard details, nor do I know where she gets that idea from (WND? Stratfor?).

This discovery may be more important than finding the WMD themselves since it could demonstrate that a program existed despite the various resolutions, but the 48 hour rules is prudent, and even though the fog of war is lifting somewhat, there's still a dense enough fog in Iraq to warrant waiting.

Incidentally what was the final word on those bio weapons labs/artillery trucks/GI Joe mobile command force units?

For a War Democrat like me the main issue was always destroying Saddam's hideous regime, but it will sure make things easier for the U.S. if we've finally uncovered the long-sought WMD data. I'm crossing my fingers that this time we have the goods.

I agree with Joe. I also really wonder why "WMD Proof" is required. Iraq won't be making them in the forseeable future (good). Better ME base for our forces than SA (great). Can scare Iran's mullahcracy by holding manuvers/ war games on their borders (heh heh).

I really don't feel that deception occurred. Bush wanted to get Saddam and so did I. Does the LLL miss him for some reason?

Ploome is my kind of ditz!

Where's that damn salt!

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes

Let’s not get inpatient about finding WMD. We know they exist; it is a matter of finding where they are or where they went. But in the meanwhile, sit back and watch the lefties froth. Enjoy the knee-jerk Bush haters at home and around the world commit to written record their conspiracy theories regarding our president and his council.

And, once again, history will unfold and reveal these people as the reactionary, intellectually stunted fools that they are.

#11 Colt

From a Google search:

Naples Daily News

post-gazette.com

Houston Chronicle

World Net Daily

The Straits Times

What's in Saddam's "Top Secret" Drawer?

Top secret baby milk formula?
The colonel's secret recipe?
Saddam's secret diary in which he connects with his femininity?
Stash of Victoria's Secret catalogues?
George Galloway check stubs?
Peter Arnett check stubs?
Scott Ritter check stubs?
CNN check stubs?
Complete Idiot's Guide to Concealing WMDs?
101 Moustache Curses?
Love letters from Chirac with authentic Saddam teardrop stains?
Heavily worn "pocket scud"?
Plastic shredder limited warranty card (never sent in)?
Daily briefings from Hans Blix?
Bizarre and innappropriate christmas cards from Arafish?
Nekkid pictures of Hannan Ashwari?

The possibilities are endless!

Ranbutthead:

Learn to deal with the facts and ideas presented, not the messenger.

This coming from the fellow who:

1. Said he won't listen to Bush or Rumsfeld anymore, because they aren't saying what he wants.

2. Accuses anyone who calls him on his antisemitism of having "dual loyalties".

Once again, Ranbutthead desperately wants there to be no WMD. His faith in a Jewish conspiracy requires there to be none.

h0mi:

Incidentally what was the final word on those bio weapons labs/artillery trucks/GI Joe mobile command force units?

There hasn't been any last word yet. People like Ranbutthead want them to be hydrogen producers, but their evidence for this is weak, at best.

On the WMD front I've sort of been holding my tongue with some for awhile, and made this comment to only a few. I think the "pesticide" plant that we found that was hidden from aerial view was a chemical weapons plant, primarily for sarin, whose primary chemicals are the same as many pesticides...The sites at H1 and H2 that were sealed of I also feel hold chemical weapons, and I also think that supposed underground nuclear site is what they thought. My feeling is that the WMDs have been found and basically the administration is holding onto it for various reasons:

1) complete accounting

2) security concerns, making sure the country is totally under control before bringing the stuff out for disposal and preventing its use by anyone within Iraq who may have access. Exposing their existence removes any political capital in not using WMDs from the "we don't have any" angle, and as we have seen, there are still organized pockets of resistence. The process of protecting the sites, and arranging for disposal will require a lot of resources.

3) political capital at home. This may seem like the opposite of what is happening, but picture this...The democrats gravitate toward a lack of WMD discoveries as their primary issue against Bush, and voila...The big WMD discovery smackdown, with the explanation of delay for reasons 1 and 2.

A lack of WMD discoveries just doesn't make any sense when you think about it. It would require that every intelligence agency, as Charles has pointed out, had been wrong for the last 10 years. There are also too many fishy circumstances around some of the discoveries that can only be described as either the reporter was lying (okay, the NYT have made that easy to believe) or there's a bit of a cover up (for now).

Give it time, and don't be surprised if the revelations are at a time that is politcally expedient...

you are a ditzy lady with no clue of WMD construction, usage, history. I, on the other hand, do have some knowledge and expertise.

Since "He who must not be named" is such an expert can we take up a collection for a one-way ticket to Baghdad Int'l for him? He's so needed over there. Leave the laptop home BTW!

Lets see if my prediction comes to be reality soon. Just heard on FOX that more terrorists were discovered in mecca. The princes will now expect the US, their trusted ally to help THEM since they are now targets of terrorism... and no doubt the US will show its loyality which means part of the deal is to stick it to Israel with even more gusto... I mean, you can't have duel loyalties, now can you?

m12edit has a point. It's a war not a frickin' publicity contest for poll #s. You don't even know 10% of the truth for years because there are more campaigns to go in this long fight.

Anybody hear anything about those mysterious cargo ships?

All that shit was probably transported to pakistan where every chemical and weapon can be bought out in the open in the street bazaars. Why not go there and shut it all down? Its amazing to me nothing is being done. 60 Min took their crew there a year or 2 ago. I find it amazing and disturbing that the shmorgisbord of WMD scattered all over pakistan markets as if they were candy shops is being ignored.

Anybody hear anything about those mysterious cargo ships?

They most likely didn't exist.

Let's see, 1441 says if we don't find WMD's we have to restore Saddam to power...right?
When someone enters a bank and says, "Give me the money; I have a gun in my pocket", you just blow him away and there are no tears shed if the menacing bulge in his pocket turns out to be an Ultimate Cheeseburger.

And #24 Sean is right. This is only the begining.

Funny how the Left is now the home of great conspiracies and only the leftists are tuned in to the real truth about Big Oil and Jewish perfidy.

Those radio messages from a far off planet must be making those fillings in one's teeth hum like crazy.

And if the US discovers Iraqi documents, dated early 2003, ordering the destruction of all WMD ?

What will be said ? Regrettably, this response seems likely ... "The threat of force was enough to cause their destruction ... the war was unnecessary."

Very few will ask "Why did'nt the idiot Hussein just tell someone and prove Bush to be wrong ?" A public destruction of WMD under Blix's 'watchful eye' would have left saddam in power with no sanctions in place.

Let's get something straight - saddam was/is an idiot. If he had no WMD - WHY act the way he did ?

{end of rambling diatribe}

#26 - Teacake I find it amazing and disturbing that the shmorgisbord of WMD scattered all over pakistan markets as if they were candy shops is being ignored.

What WMD, scattered all over Pakistani markets like candy? Nuke bombs? Anthrax spores sold by the pound. 2 liter bottles of VX haggled over? What in Ploome's name are you talking about??

#21 m12edit

My feeling is that the WMDs have been found and basically the administration is holding onto it for various reasons: (security, complete accounting, October election surprise)

In past encounters with any suspected WMD, the soldiers couldn't wait to tell someone that they "found the smoking gun". (Which is why we had 60-70 bogus WMD stories) Iraq is crawling with reporters all eager to "break" the news the world waits on with a WMD discovery. Task Force 20 - the primary WMD Search group composed of elite Seals, Delta Force, and WMD had embedded reporters - who have written at length about how Task Force 20 went from eager anticipation to frustration to utter cynicism over the course of two 1/2 months after not finding a single gram of WMD. The notion that hundreds of reporters and thousands of soldiers who have found WMD galore are "sitting on the news" is preposterous.
************************************

It is looking like none of the Iraqis in custody so far has said anything other than "we destroyed all that stuff by 1996". The top scientists and Iraqi officials now in custody have nothing to lose by not saying where the possibly mythical WMD stashes are - except offers of clemency and large cash offers dangled in front of them by desperate US officials, who are now deeply concerned that the whole WMD bit was a chimera foisted on them by:

1. An irrational Saddam, who gave every appearance of hiding something...risking regime change and death...to protect WMD he no longer had.
OR

2. Neocons who cooked the intelligence or used it selectively to push their vision of making the ME a changed place to benefit America/Israel.
OR

3. A massive intelligence failure....among the worst in history. Not just the Americans, but others - including Blix, the Germans, even the French....but the latter couched their assertions. However, the Americans/Brits were the ones asserting that we had solid proof..so we are holding the bag.

I think there's an important truth here y'all are missing. Ranbutan has actually been on pretty good behavior lately, and even his first post was reasonable. He got ugly and started with the ad hominem when ploome basically said, "Who gives a shit what you have to say? You don't matter." (nice pun, BTW)

That's when Ran reverted to form. I've often wondered why he is so personal in his ad hominems. I used to think it was a personality disorder. Now I know.

Ranbutan cares, and deeply what people here think of him, and wants it to be good. I've wondered why he keeps coming back, given that he gets only shit heaped upon his head these days, much of it deservedly, but sometimes (as in this case) preemptively. Yet he keeps coming back, and it's not to taunt, like that idiot Gordon, but because he really feels he has something to contribute, and he often does, when he can keep the epithets under control. Ran has basically gotten to the point where bad attention is better than no attention, because, deep down, it matters to hime to be a part of LGF.

So, Ran, if you can keep the epithets under control (get an editor, man) I for one will try to be more forgiving of you. Until you piss me off, that is. ;-)

pattycake #18

Thanks for the links. I ought to have googled myself. Sorry for the trouble.

Included amongst those prior the liberation of Iraq that believed Iraq did possess WMD: France, UN, NYTimes....

hello? hello? is this mic on???

Just because we have yet to find out what the disposition of the Iraqi WMD is doesn't mean they don't/didn't exist anymore than the final accounting of Saddam/binLaden/Uday/etc evil-infused carcasses were a figment of mass hallucination.

Just as UN res. 1441 presupposed the existence of WMD and was unanimously passed, so the US Senate 98-1 also believed the same...despite the revisionst chicken-little peepings from the gang of 9.

I'd like to see the location of Saddam, dead or alive, given priority, because IMHO it is the possibility of his return that has the captured "members of the deck" remaining less than cooperative.

Note to Ranb: Sir, you'd make better arguments if you didn't start your posts coming off like such an elitist. Take a clue from many here, common sense along with solid historical fact argues that Iraq WMD were/are real and Saddam continued up until his disappearance acted like he had 'em. Post-1991 it was never a matter of the rest of the world to prove he no longer had 'em, but the burden of Saddam's "terms of probation" to cooperate and later prove he didn't have 'em.

In California, a standard term of probation on felony cases is deemed "BRAVO search terms." Anywhere, at any time, a person on probation is subject to search by a police/probation officer -- their person, papers, home, car, etc -- for any reason, under any circumstance, without prior warning or warrant. Mere non-cooperation is a violation of probation (VOP) and the person ma have their probation revoked and be sentenced to additional jail or prison time. Saddam was in VOP at least since 1998. Res. 1441 was the revoking of his probation. The war was his sentence. The court in this instance (the US/Brit/coalition) doesn't have to "prove" a damned thing.

apologies all... forgot to close the bold tag

argh "preview, preview, preview"

#33 Darleen

Great post. As you said so well, it's not up to us to prove he had 'em, it was up to him to prove he didn't.

He didn't do it, we did what we were authorized to do.

QED

#29 TAS:
And if the US discovers Iraqi documents, dated early 2003, ordering the destruction of all WMD ?

Then the same people who have been screaming "Oooooiiiiiillllll!" will continue screaming "See, we were right, it was all about ooooooooooiiiiiiiiilllllllllll!!!!"

Those who are less knee-jerk anti-Bush and anti-America will ask your second question, "Why didn't Saddam avert the war by making this public?" As for the answer to that, I don't know. Who can say how a madman's mind truly works?

I won't believe it unthil the Gaurdian denies it!

There is a distressing tendency of denial then fallback positions amongst the neocons and their sympathizers. First it was that the US moved "too fast" to allow the WMD to be deployed against them by all the Special Guard units that were supposed to have vast stockpiles. Then it was the war has only been over for days...and the Mantra "Iraq is as big as California"...still said after two months by some diehards despite us - using the analogy...capturing and interrogating the preponderance of high-ranking Californians - occupying LA, San Fran, San Diego, Fresno, Sacramento and every town inbetween - and being over every military base.

Then the fallback became "Saddam is the world's greatest genius" and a master at hiding things.

Then it was....we know that Saddam and Al Qaeda were in bed....then that fell apart when leaks emerged that all of Al Qaeda's top leadership now in US hands had revealed that Saddam rebuffed all their efforts, and Binnie wasn't keen on Saddam, either. The hysterical "Atta with the Anthrax from Iraq" story just wouldn't die - because the Bushies found it Tooooo Convenient.

Then the fallback became....actual WMD are not important. It is technical knowledge and capacity to make WMD..even if none exists - that counts. (No word on when we invade Japan, Sweden, Switzerland, etc) Then it became "Gee, look at all those old mass graves from when the US encouraged the Kurds and Shiites to rebel, then stood by and watched the slaughter. We would have been right to intervene under Bush 1, we are even righter now to show the dozen-plus year old mass graves off as a cause for our right to wage preemptive war against any "bad guy".

The Asian Times has a good article on this and the tendency of the WMD true believers to retreat into shakier and shakier ethical gound to justify the war if the main pretext was bogus.

Just War and the excuses if WMD are not found.

If it turns out this WMD rationale was pretext - wittingly or unwittingly, the Iraq War just joins other Wars fought by us under false pretext. The Mexican War, the Spanish American War starting on "Spanish sabotooogie of the Maine", the belief that the Hun torpedoed an "innocent passenger ship - when the Luisitania was stocked to the gills with weaponry and ammo. The Gulf of Tonkin. The Central American wars we fought because of cooked up fictional incidents claimed by the United Fruit Company.

Many neocons say...so what!! We kicked Saddams ass, and Iraq and Israel are much better off!

Not so. The moderates in both parties would hate to be duped with another Gulf of Tonkin. That includes on the Republican side Gordon Smith, Collins, Snowe, Chaffee, DeWine - who fear they look like dupes. Same with some Congress Reps that bucked heavy local opposition because they believed the Bush Administration. Same with moderates in the public who think they may have been snookered....to say nothing for all the countries that Bush gave "his personal word to" that we have ample proof of huge WMD stockpiles and a nuclear program restarted that would give Saddam "the bomb in possibly under 6 months."

***********************

I hope we find something, because if not, heads have to roll in intelligence for the massive failure - or in the neocon ranks for manipulating the intelligence. Speculation is that Tenet is being set up as the fall guy....but that Tenet believes that Cheney, Rumsfeld were more at fault and he may grab some ankles on the way down. Perhaps not the big guys, but their top neocon lieutenants.

Like the Gulf of Tonkin, this WMD chimera will not just suddenly go away as an inconvenience.

Just to put things in perspective, a 1,000 gal. tank has a volume of approx. 133 cu. ft. This is a tank just a little over 5 feet per side. (1,500 liters in a 1.5 meter box)

So stop wasting time digging up dead bodies, we need to spend more time looking for hidden (obviously) weapons of mass destruction to prove our worthiness.

Extra credit: How long dos it take to drain a 1,000 gallon tank using a 2" diameter nozzle?

Answer.

How big is Iraq? How long did Saddam have to conceal his operation? How long did he have to destroy his stockpiles? How much longer was Hans Blix asking to continue his search.

And since we haven't found any yet, does this mean Hans was lying to us about the danger. And shouldn't he be getting an indictment from Belgium soon for perpetuating the suffering of the Iraqi people by forcing continuation of unnecessary sanctions?

#21 pretty well nails what I have been thinking. It makes no sense to me that nothing has yet turned up, when we know that he had WMD. Ergo, it must be that the evidence found to-date is being kept under wraps until it can be proved and secured for later destruction.

Hoo-boy...I can't wait to see the looks on the whiners' faces when this happens. At least for those few, precious seconds before their reflexes kick in and they start screaming about the evidence being "planted" or "faked" or somehow "conveeeeenient". Which is precisely what will happen no matter what evidence appears, where it was found, who found it, or who verifies it. Moses, Jesus, and a legion of saints could appear in the heavens and hand down the evidence themselves, and the lefties would purse their lips, snort cynically, and claim that it was all somehow faked by the "Bush junta".

After the democrats have cemented themselves as complete moonbats, we will find the WMD's

the democrats are completely susceptible to deception

the mouse doesn't just like cheese, he cannot resist it, it's his nature

cheese for the democrats is anything that casts america in a bad way, they hate america, and they cannot resist their hate, it consumes them

anybody catch garafolo rant last night? case in point

Of course, on the other hand, is the Administration acting like it has evidence that it wants to keep under wraps for now?

As Ranbutan's litany of excuses illustrates, this doesn't seem to be the case, does it? If they knew something, and were waiting for the appropriate time to make it public, I would expect the Administration's mouthpieces to be putting out a story that is consistent and constant over time...pick one story (something vague like the "big as California" or "war just ended, give us time" lines) and stick to it.

Darleen - legally, you are correct. The 1991 Resolution said that Saddam had to prove he destroyed them all. He said he did. But the "paperwork" showing he did so wasn't in order. The world wanted, with few exceptions, to let the Inspectors work out who was telling the truth. But the US was very eager to get the War underway...insisting that 1441 gave them the right....but the US never tied it to a timetable.

War was inevitable once we started deploying the troops needed to win a war...and we just couldn't just withdraw them without losing tremdous face. THat meant throwing the whole UN probation bit out the window and coming up with a new casus belli for preemptive war. We hyped WMD as the sole reason why we couldn't wait...since we faced a clear and present WMD danger, and asserted we had unequivocable proof.

Turns out there was no clear and present danger...but it is too late now to redefine our launching war as based on a probation violation or on long-ignored humanitarian grounds. (We are shocked, shocked!! To find 12 year old mass graves dating back to the rebellion the US encouraged then stepped away from when Saddam started slaughtering rebels, rebel families relentlessly).

Hopefully something will come up. Internationally, the US is naked on this fiasco and needs some piece of attire to cover the embarassment. Blair needs it worse. And Bush has to chop heads if an intelligence cooking or massive intelligence failure happened. Remember, not a single head rolled or a single demotion occured in the US Gov't after 9/11. This time, the people and the Congress will insist on accountibility. Which might go as high as a neocon purge and Rummy deciding he likes Taos NM....and Cheney announcing he has rethought matters and will not run for a 2nd term.

OT: Breaking News: Abdallah Kawassama, the leader of Hamas in Hebron, has just been killed while resisting arrest. Kawassama was the organizer of the bombins of bus 14 in Jerusalem, that killed 17, and of bus 6 in Guiva Hatsarfatit, that killed 7.

You know the tale about the boy who shouted "Fire" all the time. That's how many US folks behave with these WMD's nobody is able to find at the moment. I don't believe in them as long as I don't see any believeable source saying there are some.
It's pretty ridiculous how every rightie shouts "WMD!" like a pavlovian dog whenever there is something chemical in some tupperware is found in Iraq. By the way - the boy who shouted fire all the time, wasn't believed when there was a real fire one day.

I am really getting sick of this WMD chimera that the left has been floating out ever since our (much to their dismay) quick and decisive victory. To put this in perspective, lets start at the beginning.

1) Sept. 11 - US realizes that it needs to take the festering terrorist problem more seriously. It is hampered by 20 years of ignoring the region and being percieved as weak.

2) U.S. decides to clean up biggest festering mess in Afghanistan - whoops ass on the Taliban.

3) U.S. decides that it can no longer tolerate an openly hostile Iraq. Several reasons for this are discussed by the administration and others in the media, among them are
- Saddam is an evil monster, has raped, tortured, butchered, and killed his own people in numbers not seen since pol pot
- Saddam has used WMD in the past, and has blocked inspection of them since the end of the first gulf war. Probably still has them.
- Intelligence thinks he still has WMD.
- Saddam has known ties to terrorists, funds palestinian terrorists, and allows terrorists possibly connected to Al Queda to operate inside Iraq.
- Saddam is potentially holding an American pilot captive since first gulf war
- 10 years of appeasement of Saddam has made U.S. appear weak in eyes of terrorists everywhere.

4) Left starts whining about having so many reasons for going to war, demands that Bush give "real" reason - apparently the open-minded intellectual crowd cannot handle a war justified by more than one reason. Left also starts whining about going to the UN to get legitimacy.

5) Being that the UN doesn't care about Kurds, torture chambers, American Security, or Terrorism, the U.S. uses WMD as the causus belli.

6) After one of the fastest, most decisive military campaigns in history, a dismayed left starts playing "hide the ball" with the standard for victory, simply changing the standard of what is needed to win in order to try and grasp defeat from the jaws of victory. Among the more idiotic complaints have been
- there were power shortages - during a war??? Gasp???
- there was looting - during a war??? Gasp???
- Somebody robbed a bank - during a war??? Gasp???
- we didn't turn Iraq into Sweden DESPITE several months in which to do it.

And on and on. The fact is, that in the eye's of the left. The war will NEVER be justified and bush will always be evil. When we find WMD, they'll just switch to whining about something else.

Ranb

I find it interesting that even some here rant that the admin had "too many" stories, then go right into the "one" reason put forth wasn't "good enough."

Are the leftists incapable of multitasking?

Yes, we "knew" that the rebelling Shiites were brutally put down, but the extent..up to mass graves of infants..was unknown. Just as the GI's liberating the death camps in Nazi Germany were horrified beyond belief by what they found.

And what is wrong with pointing out that Iraq IS the size of California? Too many people think "over there" consists of a myriad of counties the size of NYC. You know what exists outside the urban/suburban areas of LA, Frisco and San Diego? Not a hell of a lot!!

Let me give you a small example... a few years back there was a huge fire though an area of the LA basin near the Cajon pass (Wrightwood area). It burned thousands of acres of forest and brush that hadn't burned in 50 plus years. Understand, this area is within 30-40 minute drive of millions of people. A firecaptain inspecting for hotspots scanning some of the steep slopes noticed something shiney...

Whoa! It was a wrecked plane...that had been missing since the 1950's.

A plane. Bigger than a breadbox, bigger than an automobile.

How much space does a few thousand liters of chem WMD take up?????

It remains, deposing of Saddam was both good and overdue. From Bush Srs. dropping of the ball to Clinton's refusal to fully step up to the plate, it took GW to finish the job rather than let Saddam's dream of being a modern Saladin with his paid Pal shocktroops continue on.

#45 says :

I don't believe in them as long as I don't see any believeable source saying there are some.

No one believed prior to the war that Iraq didn't have WMD. Like France, UN, NYTimes, Clinton, Gore.....

"Lilli" = another member of the far left "flat earth" society.

Since the invasion of Iraq, many facts about the nature of the regime have become crystal clear...the mass graves, the children buried alive, the ecological destruction of the marshes, and on and on. We have also obtained evidence that the harm ostensibly done to "the children" by western sanctions was in fact largely attributable to deliberate policies of the regime.

How many "progressives" changed their mind about the war as a result of these findings? Maybe 10%.

Thought experiment: if the evidence just captured shows detailed design documents for a nuclear weapon, together with sourcing activities for its components and plans to detonate it in Hamburg or New York City--then how many "progressives" will change their mind about the probity of invading Iraq?

Given this hypothetical extreme black-and-white evidence, my guess is 20%. Any other guesses?

OT Breaking news:

Hamas leader killed

#40 T.L James - Geez, man. If Moses and Jesus handed over the WMD evidence then you know the screams from the left of Jewish Conspiracy would be deafening. Besides, does anyone on the left even believe in Jesus or Moses or any other saint? They would only believe if the evidence was provided by Gaia the earth spirit or maybe that Wiccan moon goddess chick.

Actually, #46 reminds me of the motto of the moonbat left: "Prove it to me and I still won't believe it."

See, the mass graves, children's prisons, and torture camps kind of make IndyMedia and the MoonBats look like complete a**holes for opposing the war. The WMD thing is just an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that anti-war types essentially supported the torture and murder of men, women, and children.

Hey, IndyMedia and the MoonBats would make a great name for a band, wouldn't it? I can see the Viking Kittens video now:

It's all about oil!!!!

It's all about oil!!!

It's all about o-o-o-o-i-i-i-i-l-l-l-l-l-l!!!!"

One of the major reasons for going to war against Saddam now was to end a threat BEFORE it got to be too large. The constant nitpicking in the aftermath has made me rethink an old historical quandary - what if we had gotten rid of Hitler in 1935? In light of current media criticism, I have decided to provide what I think would have been the major NYT headlines of 1936.

"League of Nations finds no evidence that alleged 'battleship' Bismark was in violation of arms limitations."

"U.S., British intelligence still cannot find link to 'supposed' planned invasion of Poland."

"War analysts now know that German army not a threat - had barely any tanks, heavy weapons."

" U.S., British intelligence still cannot prove that 'bomber' factory was actually producing warplanes, inside SS sources say that actually producing civilian transports."

"SS riot in Nurenberg proof that 'german street' has been inflamed by Allied invasion."

"France, Russia denounce 'unnecessary' war of aggression by Allies."

Spunky MG (#52),

Did someone mention the Viking Kittens. Check it out they traded in their longship for Hover-Fan rotors.

Mommydoc, I have He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named on my feces roster since he made innuendo that I've got a homosexual crush on Caton & Reaganite. IOW: Fuck him.

#54 Geepers -

That has got to be the craziest thing I've seen all year ROTFL - the writers of Monty Python must be green with envy!

Frank IMC (#56),

The original was better, it had the Viking Kittens, in a long boat going raiding to Led Zeppelins: Immigrant Song.

But I can't find it.

Sean - Please get you facts straight. You appeared as a non-military person fascinated by the virulent manliness of Caton and Reaganite talking about weapons, best calibers to "take out an enemy" - and a plethora of manly, manly feats the two claim.

I found your fascination homoerotic, not homosexual. There is a difference.

A homo went to adore the Greek Hoplite soldiers with the goal of getting buggered. A homoerotic lad goes off to the Spartan Wars with the idea of being a spear-carrier for his "older betters" - but despite his hetero inclinations - gets buggered in a pinch in the lonely, lonely camps of the manly, manly men.

You drip fascination with warriors...not being one, yourself. Your gushing and fawning of the "heroes" - based on their chest-thumping Internet Posts only - is blatant.

Not saying Caton, and certainly not Reaganite are homos....nor are you.

But your adoration is homoerotic. Same as with all the boys that fixate on men that they think are far more manly than they will ever be.... It is not homosexual to watch the gladiator movies you like, Sean. Nor is it homosexual to crave tenderly spreading linament or olive oil over a noble bruised Hoplite's body - as a good Greek Army camp boy should do for such men, when they return from battle.

Homosexual, no. Homoerotic, yes...

Live with that disconcerting fact. But be assured I don't think for a moment that you are pursuing buggery.

#31 - MDoc -

About 30% on mark. As always, my respect for a very, very smart gal.

I wouldn't mind having a drink with you in Sandy Eggo...as long as I watched that drink the whole time.

I remember the Winston Churchill story. Where he was being a smart astute, contrarian asshole with a few ladies from British gentry offended. Finally one could no longer hold her peace.

"Winston, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink!"

Churchill looked at her, sizing her up....

"And dear Madame, if I awoke one day to the unfortunate aspects of knowing you were my wife and had poisoned my cup....I would gladly drink it."

I found your fascination homoerotic, not homosexual.

I find it fascinating that you find it homoerotic. Interesting take on things, Ranbutan.

Evidently Zulu has never seen "Airplane". Nor has read on the Fabians, Byron, war culture. Hellenic times. Nor has an inkling in why acolyte Sean has such a boyish fascination with Caton and Reaganite.

The truth ain't pretty.

Ranbutan (#61)

As per usual, some interesting assumptions you make about me there. But then that's your art.

Funny, but you go to great lengths to explain the difference between homoerotic and homosexual.

to crave tenderly spreading linament or olive oil over a noble bruised Hoplite's body - as a good Greek Army camp boy should do for such men, when they return from battle.

My...my.... what was that about Sean's homoerotic fantasies?

Ranbutan: Not to worry. You don't bother me enough to want to poison you; the payoff wouldn't be worth the personal risk. In fact, I can't think of a single reason I would want to take the time to have a drink with you, either, when there are so many more pleasant things I could do with the time, like go to traffic school, have a root canal, get audited...

But thanks for the initial kind words, followed as they were with another slap. I had no idea you repected me.

zulubaby and Darleen: LOL!

OT: I am having a great deal of cognitive dissonance, posting on LGF from Santa Fe, which, much as I love it, kinda is moonbat central. I'm off to the spa tomorrow, although I draw the line well before this. Birdshit? On my face?

In fact, I can't think of a single reason I would want to take the time to have a drink with you, either, when there are so many more pleasant things I could do with the time, like go to traffic school, have a root canal, get audited...

LOL!! I'm crying!

It makes my point for me!

I think someone here misses his days on the submarine, with three manly men to one bunk.

The best I can make of the distinction between "homoerotic" and "homosexual" is that the former involves manly men attracted to other manly men, while "homosexual" means sissy boys who spend their time in art galleries and antiquing, wear way too much cologne, and have those Gdamned bowls of rose-shaped soap bars, and "live the gay lifestyle".

Santa Fe, which, much as I love it, kinda is moonbat central.

From what I've heard, Taos is even worse. Many of the locals claimed that there was a phenomenon called "the Taos Hum", a soft, low-frequency hum that could sometimes be heard in that locale.

An objective investigation determined that this supposedly unique "hum" was simply the normal sound of 60 Hz electrical systems.

I was in Albuquerque four weeks ago and loved it. It's total Sprawlville, but the people are unbelievably friendly.

Frank IMC - Sub Hotracking...yes, those were the days!
On homoerotic vs. homosexual....I mentioned Sean's attraction for manly, manly men was homoerotic in nature a few months ago and inadvertently traumatized the poor lad into thinking he was being called a homosexual (not that there's anything wrong with that : Seinfeld). Perhaps you can explain it better to Sean than me, but as I understand it....IMO...homoerotic behavior is common amongst male adolescents seeking to role model men of action. But the hetero ones are a tad uncomfortable with this fascination...so an interesting social phenom in movies and action games is subsuming that homoerotic attraction into a "socially safer object" - hence the recent creation of the female action character - Lara Croft, Charlie's angels.....beautiful, well-curved women kicking ass that male adolescents (the prime market) can focus on as the object of adoration rather than a male bodybuilder. The savvy media marketeers know the "lads" can feel more comfortable having other male friends over to share playing a game or watching a movie with - augmenting revenues. Better than gladiator movies......

Anyhow...back to the thread topic. George Will wrote today that it deeply matters that we find Saddam's WMD (if they exist) or find out why they don't exist...or otherwise, the Bush Doctrine of preemptive war is fatally undermined. Since the Doctrine is based on America having adequate intelligence to "know" what the gathering danger is before launching a just war. Will says it is nice that we took out a brutal dictator, but that was not the stated justification.

George Will: WMD Truth Critical to Long Term Prospects of Bush Doctrine

It is not just weenie Lefties that are saying the WMD case matters. It is also conservatives that are becoming very concerned that we might have made a major international decision based of flawed or doctored intelligence.

Frank IMC: Yeah, you're right about all of it, but Santa Fe is the freakin' state capital!

Ranbutan (#70)

With regards to Sean, at this point you're engaging in slander. May I suggest that you grow up?

I anticipate hearing your daily mantra:
I Never Start The Ad Hominem Attacks...

A few weeks ago I was on vacation. While changing film, I accidentally dropped the used roll. It rolled a bit and I spent about 15 minutes looking in every logical place. It didn't turn up and I had to give up.

I shouldn't have worried about the missing roll to begin with. By the non sequitur applied to WMD, since I couldn't find it the roll never existed.

In regards to WMD, it was Dominique de Villepin who said: "If Saddam Hussein does not comply, if he does not satisfy his obligations, there will obviously be a use of force" on November 12, 2002. Even de Villepin never claimed that Hussein complied. Later de Villepin said "the security of the Americans is under threat from people like Saddam Hussein who are capable of using chemical and biological weapons."

Other people who made similar statements include Carl Levin, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton.

Even opponents of the war conceded that Saddam had WMD. Jan Schakowsky, a Democratic Congresswoman said last September: "Once an attack on Iraq is launched complete with hundreds of thousands of ground troops, Saddam Hussein will have no incentive to refrain from using his chemical and biological as well as conventional weapons against our troops and Israel." Last November she said "... the service men and women who are sent into battle may not be adequately protected against chemical and biological attacks."

Were all of these folks duped by the dread neocons?
(BTW, I wish someone would define "neocons" and list them.)

George Will's column in today's Washington Post has the likeliest explanation of WMDs.

Would hate to think that those documents that were found, were actually found in SCIR offices as is being reported.

That would make your post about Iran a little telling.

Check your stories before you post and verify who had the documents.

The SCIR and MEK should ring a bell in the last few weeks. Maybe a ceasefire?