The heart of the mainstream Islam is such a monstrous black hole, that even the supposed "moderates", in 99% of cases, are anything but.

First, motherfucking FIRST!!!

What? Another apparently moderate Muslim turns out to be just a mouth-piece for the loons?

I'm shocked.

Wait... no I'm not. Just a reaction to having warmed-over pizza for dinner.

I had linked to the Bostom piece when I posted on the appointment a few days ago.

My take is that El Fadl is a human being. He is not perfect. And he is not a finshed product, but a work in progress. I don't expect I would agree on him on every point. But I don't agree with Dr. Pipes on every point. I don't agree with our Lizardoid Master on every point. That isn't the test of anything.

On balance, I think that as an ex-fundamentalist Muslim who is still a Muslim and who has absorbed some American values as well, El Fadl brings some important credentials and insights to the table, and is a good guy to have on the team.

Oh, so sorry, your contestant has been disqualified. Thanks for playing "Find a Moderate Muslim" and we hope you enjoy your wonderful consolation prizes. Wishing you a happy Taqiyya...see you next time.

Moderate in the same sense as Abu Mazen is moderate?

Moderate in the sense that the holocaust "might" have happened?

I agree with Ben F. I think that El Fadl is better than "the best of a bad lot."

I took a course on Islamic Law at Stanford and El Fadl appeared as a guest lecturer one day. I was ready to pounce on anything he said that smacked of apologetic reletivism or anything of the sort. Although he carefully circled around some sensitive issues, he nevertheless went to a significant length during a public lecture earlier that day at Stanford to proclaim his disgust with Islam as it stands today, that the vast majority have misunderstood and misinterpreted the Quran, the Hadith, and the Sunnah, and that Islamic fundamentalism is a scourge that needs to be addressed, if not purged outright, FROM WITHIN (a mantra shared by many on this blog).

Is he perfect? No. But his position against "Islamicism" is clear, his desire for a reformation obvious, and his respect and admiration for his adopted land (the U.S.) unquestionable -- in my opinion.

I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt and our support, the petition that Charles linked to notwithstanding.

SB (#8):

I think that El Fadl is better than "the best of a bad lot."

Possibly. But it does speak volumes about the mainstream Islam, doesn't it, that we're ready to settle for that.

The only thing louder than the islamists yelling discrimination, is the deafning silence of the so called moderates in response to these extremists (?) views.

#4 Ben F.

I think that as an ex-fundamentalist Muslim who is still a Muslim

This is reassuring to hear about your ability to tell what type of Muslim the world is dealing with. Ben F.'s problem is that Ben F. can define who people are by putting them in a box labelled "x". Yo Ben F. the Islam "cult' wants to either KILL or subjugate you!!!!!

Interesting posting, Charles. I will leave aside (for now) the question of Khaled Abou El Fadl's moderation or lack of moderation. The problem is that even if he moves through progressive stages of enlightenment, I don't think it will matter to the future of Islam.

I was with him in Qatar at a conference last fall when he went up against Sheikh Qaradawi on suicide bombings. Qaradawi trounced him. Khaled said the right things (more or less), but in a manner so obtuse that Qaradawi and the other Arab participants must have missed the point entirely. (By the way, Khaled opened by saying: "I wish to apologize, but having spent 20 years in American academe, I no longer have sufficient command of technical Arabic to make my argument in that language. I will be speaking in English." It was downhill from there.)

So I really don't think that Khaled Abou El Fadl has the tools necessary to bring off the great reform of Islam. The search continues.

(See my account of the Qatar conference here).

There is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim".

Islam is what Islam is. Islam is the following of the Qu'ran and Sunnah (example set by the prophet).

A moderate Muslim is someone who follows the Qu'ran and Sunnah to the best of their abilities.

Islam is a religion which includes no moderates. That is why Islam must be extinguished. All moderate Muslims, of which there are about 100 million, are working towards the conversion, enslavement or death of all the other people on the planet.

Either we deal with the "moderates" now and accept the nasty taste it leaves in our mouths or we deal with them in the future in which case we may not even exist, having already been slaughtered by offensive jihad.

Islam has got to die. There are no two ways about it. Please everyone be sure to join the anti-jihad as soon as possible. Be sure to deal with true Muslims whenever the law or circumstance allows it. It's either them or your children.

I don't agree with everything that Prof. El Fadl says.

But there isn't anybody in the world with which I agree 100% of the time on all issues.

In fact, I have even had to change my own mind on some things (who doesn't?), so you could say that I don't even agree with myself totally 100% of the time.

But here is what I find outstanding and commendable in Prof. El Fadl. El Fadl has had the courage to speak up in opposition to certain views in Islam that he calls "fundamentalist". For expressing his views, he has paid a high price, by being shunned by some of the Muslim community, and even losing some of his friends. He has also exhorted his fellow Muslims to be more courageous in speaking out for what they believe, although he has lamented that they do not do this.

There is the Wahhabi party line on so many issues, and these are spread by CAIR and its sister militant-Islamist organizations. The problem is that ordinary Muslims are intimidated into not expressing their views. The fact that El Fadl is not afraid to express his non-party-line views is really wonderful and outstanding. And El Fadl's appointment to a position of some influence gives me hope that he will be an inspiration to other Muslims to cast their fears aside, and say what they really believe.

And regardless of what other views he may hold, I think that he is basically for Muslims being tolerant of non-Muslims, and that is important always, and especially today when the rabid jihadi terrorists and radical Islamists are arguing exactly the other way.

I think he is opposed to the oppression of women in Islamic societies, and that is important also.

I think he is open to the influences of the non-Muslim world, and is willing to accept what he thinks is good about the non-Muslim world and accept modern ways of thinking. And that is good.

He is not an apostate from Islam. But that is good in that it will give him more influence in the Muslim world than if he were an apostate.

I can agree to disagree with El Fadl on various issues, but IMO he is a real Muslim, he is anti-fundamentalist, anti-Wahhabi, pro-US, pro-tolerance, pro-women's rights, pro-modernist, and one heck of a courageous guy to openly oppose the militant-Islamist party line.

I support his nomination to the USCIRF.

A Moderate Muslim is 1 who stays @ home, says his prayers for the Mujahideen, pimps in some money for the 'Cause', and glorifies Jihad. Not'in much/no more blood action except for the ritual slaughters of cattle..

An Extremist Muslim is one who gets himselves trained in the 'Arts' of the AK-47, shoots right between a child's forehead (Like the one who shot a 7 yr kid at the Akshardam Temple at point blank range), and blows himself up in a crowd of innocent shoppers.

So, there is really a difference you see!
And thats the only difference!

#13 ex-muslim

Be sure to deal with true Muslims whenever the law or circumstance allows it. It's either them or your children.

Perhaps freedom is an overlooked concept in the "Muslim' world. The freedom to say to religion: go away, get lost, I'm outa here. Maybe Muslim's need the freedom to say no to THEIR religion. Maybe their religion has left them stranded. In this case, where are the Imans?

Dr. Kramer writes: I really don't think that Khaled Abou El Fadl has the tools necessary to bring off the great reform of Islam.

Far be it from me to disagree. But that isn't what El Fadl is being asked to do as part of this appointment. The Commission is authorized to monitor violations of religious freedom abroad and to make policy recommendations to the President of the United States, the Secretary of State, and to the United States Congress with respect to matters involving international religious freedom.

"best of a bad lot" is at least a starting point. At least it shows some desire to publicly deviate from teh radical islamists. Not great, I'm not going to put laurels on the guy's head, but better than nothing.

"his omissions of evidence in this essay, combined with an excessive reliance on sacralized, whitewashed historiography"

A little hard to argue about what someone doesn't write without knowing more. If El Fadl is saying "jihad is peaceful struggle" he's obviously full of shit. But if he's saying "it should be interpreted this way and other interpretations are wrong," that is at least a small voice for the islamic reformation that simply MUST occur.

Maybe since the islamists are so prevalent in Germany, another Luther will come along. Soon, I hope. SOON.

#16 rizzo--

The freedom to say no to one's own religion is precisely what this Commission is all about.

#17 benf

The Commission is authorized to monitor violations of religious freedom abroad

Ben hope you are checking the violations in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan about the CHRISTIANS practicing their faith.

OT but interesting: 500 Iraqis sign petition to freeze Arab League membership and Britain expels Saudi diplomat

Dear Charles,

I hadn't even realized that Campus Watch linked to my piece on El Fadl posted at ISIS...It is quite disturbing that Pres. Bush has appointed this very disingenuous waxing/waning Islamist to the US Commission on International Religious Freedom.

In my essay I omitted, appropriately, any qualitative discussion of El Fadl's interactions with non-Muslims, especially Jews...A colleague attended a Boston area seminar El Fadl gave on "Islam and Democracy" this past spring shortly after Bush appointed young Noah Feldman (a story in and of itself!) to help draft the Iraqi Constitution...El Fadl was enraged that a "Jew" should be appointed for this task..My friend even queried why Feldman's Jewishness mattered, and El Fadl at that point, grew more "restrained" and simply insisted a Muslim should have been appointed...(one assumes himself, for example!).

This almost reflexive, subliminal Jew hatred characteristic of those of El Fadl's ilk is symptomatic of the larger problem evident in El Fadl's negationist "scholarship" on jihad war and dhimmitude: he (they) is (are) DEVOID of EMPATHY for ALL non-Muslims...The only "suffering" he can perceive or acknowledge is the suffering of Muslims...El Fadl needs a transcranial empathy graft...He is a most inappropriate candidate for the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, where empathy for those of all faiths, or no faith, would seem to be an obvious qualifying pre-requisite.

Propaganda on top of propaganda, which, is nothing more than verbal posturing of no substance.

What a wise saying, that no one seems to pay attention to........so I will say it again, "You shall know them by their deeds."

The Jews are too inclusive, even for their own good. So to state that they are about "Genocide," is a stupid remark only a professor could make,(and time has proven them to be the dumbest sh*t walking on the face of the planet) so any statment out of their face is no statement at all.

It is the creed of the Muslims to advocate the genocide of ALL non-muslims so it stands to reason that the label "genocide advocates," befits Palestinians as they are of the Muslim pedigree.

These professors should think before they speak. Idiots.

The muslims are low life forms, which in itself would be alright if they kept to themsevles. But they don't. The propagate this low life.

The Jews on the other hand are of the higher nature and do not propagate as much as they should.

For the sake of continued humanity and higher evolvement it is wise and prudent to safeguard the welfare of the Jewish race as it benefits mankind, as a whole, unlike the Muslims race which benefits the few(mullahs and degenerate sheiks) at the expense of the dumbed down repressed masses.

And, if OUR POLITICIANS don't grasp this very factual concept, the next two generations can kiss freedom, liberty and their as*es goodbye as the world becomes a bloody mess of Moslem terrorist mayhem.

Bring the US soldier home. Let the Muslims rape Muslims. Pillage Muslims. No more maming and laming US soldier. Let them mame and lame each other.

Way to go US patriots........instead of looting(about 50 looters out of millions not looting that is phenomenal)instead, you took care of each other....in the massive blackouts........no doubt the US is the best of the best.........UNITED WE STAND!

F*the UN, Euros, and Moslems.

Long Live Israel!

#19 benf.

The freedom to say no to one's own religion is precisely what this Commission is all about.

Oh very good(goodey too shoes)Will not happen in the Islamic cyberspace.

#11 rizzo--

A cult usually has a leader. As I understand it, authority in Islam is diffuse, at least in these post-Caliphate times.

There are Islamic groups that want to see me dead. It distresses me greatly that my Secretary of State does not want some of those groups to be destroyed, but instead wants them to be integrated into the society and governing authority of a nascent state adjacent to Israel.

But I distinguish between these particular groups and the religion in toto. To do otherwise is rather problematic.

As for El Fadl being a former fundamentalist, that's not me putting him in a box; it's what he says of himself. Downset yourself, please.

Yossarian (#21),

Thanks for the Iraqi news link. I wish there were a site dedicated to all the progress that is being made in Iraq. There is a mountain of good news (and really interesting stories,) that is happening now.

What do we get? Gloom and doom or backhanded complements - from our our journalists. But never fear they are impartial and are only wanting to present equal and opposing viewpoints.

To expect allies in this war against militant Islamism to be saints is really futile. You are not going to find them.

But we do need allies who are really Muslims, to move the center of gravity of the ummah toward moderation in their thinking and in their actions.

The fact that militant Islamist organizations in the US have come out against Prof. El Fadl tells me that they regard him as a dangerous influence that threatens their hegemony and intimidation over Muslims in the US. That's a feather in Prof. El Fadl's cap as far as I'm concerned.

The big question is, will he help or will he hinder, in the great crisis of Islam. Will he push the center of gravity of Islam toward radicalism or toward moderation? He is no saint, but IMO he will help to push Islam (even if very faintly and gently) in the direction of moderation. So, I think his appointment is right.

#25 ben(get a clue) f.

A cult usually has a leader. As I understand it, authority in Islam is diffuse, at least in these post-Caliphate times.

Yea so diffuse. Like the Commies. LLL Ben f.: laughing at stupidity!!!!!

There is obviously no possible objection to a Muslim who rejects jihad ideology and its attendant legalized oppressions.

The problem with someone like Khaled Abou El Fadl is not that he says that jihad is peaceful, but that he implies that jihad was ALWAYS peaceful and insists that Islam has no tradition of holy war.

Sure. We have always been at war with Eurasia.

Real reform in Islam will not come until Muslims like El Fadl acknowledge that Islam has provided justifications for violence, and repudiate those justifications. The Pope has apologized for the misdeeds of Christians in the past, as have Protestant groups. Where is the Muslim who will in the same way stand up and admit that jihad has meant violence and oppression, apologize where appropriate, and base his Islamic moderation on a forthright repudiation of the elements of Islamic tradition and theology that lead to violence?

El Fadl, at least so far, has done nothing like this.

After doing some research on El Fadl and his views, many of our readers are hailing him as that elusive “moderate Muslim” for whom we’re always looking.

I am definitely guilty of that, and said so as much on the last thread based on a sparklingly glowing article by Rod Dreher, formerly of NRO.

After reading that article, I made a comment that is clearly not true:

Fadl and Pipes are basically on the same page.

Perhaps that was a fair conclusion based solely on that article, but Pipes would never sign a ridiculous pre-transfer/genocide petition.

So, my new (more informed, but hardly conclusive) take is as follows:

I do think Fadl is a mostly "moderate muslim." I don't expect "moderate muslims" to be great on Israel. I do expect them to denounce suicide bombing and terrorism - loudly, and try and convince others of a "moderate" interpretation of Islam, which includes tolerance for other religions. They need to take on CAIR and denounce them as the Wahhabists they are. The lack of vocal "moderates" is clearly a problem.

What's truly needed are not "moderates" but "radicals" - from the opposite end of the spectrum as the Islamofacists. People who will take on their co-religionists full blast, and "reclaim" (not that they ever had the claim to begin with) the religion as their own.

Not a likely scenario given the current apologist/fatwa climate.

And if "radical anti-extremist" Muslims can't or won't solve the problems with in their own religion, then sadly non-Muslims will have to do so.

benf........regarding

A cult usually has a leader. As I understand it, authority in Islam is diffuse, at least in these post-Caliphate times.

yes, well, the cult leader is muhammed

and to this day, madrassas teach pupils how many stones he used to wipe his ass after defecating.

I'm not a Quranic scholar ( but I play one on TV), but doesn't the Holy Quran have a prophecy from Big Mo that the day will come for Muslims to kill all the Jews. Something to the affect that even the rocks and trees will call out "O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come kill him", every tree except one kind ( a Jew loving tree?)

Christians have done some nasty things to Jews and others, but nowhere does their Holy Book command that.

So even the most moderate Muslim follows a book that has a big round of Jew extermination at Judgement Day.

BTW, no Hurricane for Houston, but we still have about 6 weeks of season in Texas ( , two full months for the lucky folks in Florida), so don't give up on an LFG Houston chapter Hurricane party.

Ed

Big Mo wiped with stones.?.?.?

If I wiped with stones, I'd have hemorhoids as big as golf balls, and I'd be p'd off, and if I commanded a group of worshipers, I'd probably have them rape and pillage neighboring cities and raid camel caravans too.

This puts Mo in a whole new perspective for me.

Re #32:

It's not in the Qur'an, but it's a well-attested and often repeated Hadith (traditions second in authority only to the Qur'an itself). It appears in many forms in various Hadith collections. Here is one:

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews." — Sahih Muslim, book 41, # 6985.

Ed Moran...

take a look.it is in the Hadiths.

[Link: groups.msn.com...]

MATERIALS WE CAN NOT USE FOR ESTINJAA

1- We (obviously) should not use anything that is originally Najis (impure)..

The prophet SAAWS asked his servant (Abdullah Ibn Masood) to bring him three stones for "Estinja", Ibn Masood RAA only found two stones so he brought him a piece of animal's droppings (dung) that was dry. When the prophet saw it, he threw it away and said that it is Najasah (impure). (Bukhary: 155)

2- We can not use any human's food for this purpose, neither we can use a Jinn's food (like bones) for "Estinja"

"Do not use bones for "Estinja"; they are the food for your Jinn brothers" (Muslim: 450) and (Tirmidhy: 18)

3- It is forbidden to use any of the animals parts, like it's hand or legs ...etc. But if this part was pure and separate from a dead animal, like the skin that is tanned, it can be used.

RULES CONCERNING THE PLACE

It is forbidden to do urinating or "Estinjaa" in the following places:

1- Places were people sit, gather or pass by, as this would cause hurt to others.

"The prophet SAAWS said: avoid the two cursed things. They said: and what are the two cursed things? He SAAWS said: whoever urinate in the roads people pass by, and under the shadows where they rest" (Muslim: 269) and others.

2- In a hole in the ground or a hole in the wall, as it might cause him hurt that it might be a shelter for snakes or scorpions, or he might hurt other weak animals.

"The prophet SAAWS forbade us from urinating in burrows (hole in the ground)" (Abu Dawood: 29)

3- Under trees that have (or might have) fruits; as a protection for the fruits from dirt.

4- Shallow water (or water that is not running). (Muslim: 281)

RULES CONCERNING THE STATUS OF THE PERSON HIMSELF

1- It is not allowed to carry anything that has Allah's name (or any of His holy names) with him to where he is urinating.. As this is considered to be a Najis (impure) place that is not appropriate to carry or mention Allah's name(s).

Also when a Muslim passed by the prophet SAAWS while he was in the Khala, he said the greeting (Salam) to the prophet, but he SAAWS did not answer his greeting.

2- He/she should enter "Al khala" or the bathroom with his/her left leg and say: "Allahomma Inny A'ootho Bika Mina 'l 'khobothi Wa 'l 'khaba'ith" or: "O' Allah: I seek refuge in you from male and female noxious beings (devils or evil Jinn)"

He/she should go out with his/her right leg and say: "Ghof'ranak" or "O' Allah: I seek your forgiveness". Also the prophet SAAWS used to say when going out: "Alhamdu Lillah, Allathy Afany Wa Akhraja Al Atha Minny" or: "All grace to Allah (thanks to Allah) who protected (cured) me, and relieved me from filth/harm"

*I personally believe the last Dua'a is so important, as it is a big grace to be able to get relieved from the filth or harm.. we only feel it when we are sick! so I guess it's so appropriate to thank Allah for this grace.

3- One should not talk. It is not appropriate for a Muslim while urinating to talk or discuss matters. Many scholars said it is "dislike" or "Makrooh".

4- One should move and hide himself from others, as the prophet SAAWS only relieved himself when he was out of site.

5- One should neither face nor turn his back to the "Qibla" while relieving himself. *This is actually what Islamic Housing designs should consider when building the bathrooms or toilets.

6- One should use his left hand for the cleaning after urinating "Estinjaa", as it is more appropriate. It is Makrooh to use his right hand for this purpose or to touch his private parts with it.

"Salman was once asked: Your prophet teaches you everything, even how to relieve yourselves?

Salman said: Certainly.... he forbade us from facing the Qiblah while doing so, from cleaning ourselves with our right hand, and from cleaning ourselves with less than three stones. We also should not use an impure substance or a bone to clean our selves" (Muslim, Abu Dawood and At-Tirmidhy


..........oy

#31 ploome--

And the U.S. is trying to shut down those madrassas in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. I just wish more attention were being paid to the Saudi-controlled school and the Iranian-controlled school in the D.C. suburbs . . . .

so, Ed Moran.........keep your right hand up there, where we can all see it.......

rofl

#35 Oh my.

How do muslims explain all the urinating and defecating in the sand as they are crammed together, like unwashed cattle in a boxcar, on their yearly pilgrimage to Mecca?

Re #38

Johnny Cat should use the pilgrimage as an advertisment.

i took an undergraduate class from El Fadl at UT Austin in 96 which was essentially biographical study of the life of Mohammad. like poster #8 i was eagerly awaiting him to out himself as a raving lunatic. he never did. the class was really hard though :)

You should read Ayatollah Khomeini's little green book. It allows the sodomizing of babies and screwing camels. He also thinks you're a real man if you get to marry a little girl. Sick bastards. Talk about living in the Dark Ages, or in Stupidville.

Quotes from Islam's Most Famous Spokesman

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister.

Ayatollah Khomeini

It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

Ayatollah Khomeini

A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

Ayatollah Khomeini
(Quotes above are from Khomeini's book, Tahrirolvasyleh, vol. 4, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990, Source: Homa)

If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, an ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned.

Ayatollah Khomeini

(From The Little Green Book: Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Phylosophica, Social and Religious, with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number0-553-14032-9, page 47 Source: Homa)

Eleven things are impure: urine, excrement, sperm...non-Moslem men and women...and the sweat of an excrement-eating camel.

Ayatollah Khomeini

(From The Little Green Book, Source: Harwood's Mythology's Last Gods, 175)"

liazroids...........drinks are on me

00:01Mortar fired from Gaza Strip at Israeli target, but shell exploded in Palestinian territory (Israel Radio

(from Haaretz)

We also should not use an impure substance or a bone to clean our selves

I mean, just how freaking stupid do you have to be that someone has to tell you not to use a bone to wipe your ass?

What's truly needed are not "moderates" but "radicals" - from the opposite end of the spectrum as the Islamofacists.

Bingo.

It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home.

Is this precaution against inbreeding since Khomeini presumes the father is probably raping his daughter?

These blackouts are a zionist-orchestrated mind control experiment... at least that's what the signals picked up by the fillings in my teeth tell me.

#32 Ed Moran--

It's a hadith, or tradition, and is viewed as having more or less authority by different groups of Muslims.

Here is the way it is taught in a Saudi textbook. Here is an LGF thread about a BBC interview with a Saudi minister who, among other things, defends the teaching of this hadith. And here is a translation of the charter of Hamas, where you will find this hadith quoted in Article 7.

#36 ben f**khead said:

And the U.S. is trying to shut down those madrassas in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. I just wish more attention were being paid to the Saudi-controlled school and the Iranian-controlled school in the D.C. suburbs . . . .

We are so glad that the Democratic Party is interested in National Defense. 50 years too late!!!!!!!! Jeez where's bc when you need him?

43 Geepers

BwaaaaaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

#41

Wow, that wacky Ayatollah. What a party animal.

I love the part about busting a nut in the local cow and then selling it to the neighboring village:

Mohamed: "Ah, Abu, my good friend. I wish to sell you this pristine bovine for the clearance price of 2 virgin sheep."

Abu: "Two virgin sheep?? That is all, my friend? You have a deal."

Mohamed walking away, snickering and saying under his breath: "Sucker"

Two days later.

Abu: "Mohamed, I have a wonderful cow to sell to you." Under his breath, "Hehehheh"

ploome (#42)

Mortar fired from Gaza Strip at Israeli target, but shell exploded in Palestinian territory

L'Chaim!

I like Fouad Adjami...
[Link: www.cfr.org...]
lets draft him

Mr. Ajami is the Majid Khadduri Professor and Director of Middle East Studies at the School for Advanced International Studies, The Johns Hopkins University, a position he has held since 1980. He has been since 1989 a contributing editor of U.S. News & World Report for which he has written on American foreign policy, Middle Eastern politics and contemporary history, and he is a consultant on Middle Eastern affairs for CBS News.

Mr. Ajami is the author of numerous books including: The Arab Predicament, The Vanished Imam, Beirut: The City of Regrets, and The Dream Palace of the Arabs: A Generation's Odyssey. He was awarded the five-year MacArthur Prize Fellowship in 1982 for his work on Middle Eastern politics and culture. He is a member of the board of advisers of Foreign Affairs. He is based in New York, NY.

43 geepers

Good thing they weren't told that the BEST ass-wipe is the thigh bone of an infidel.

#47 ben f**khead

The last hour won't come before the Muslims would fight the Jews and the Muslims will kill them so Jews would hide behind rocks and trees. Then the rocks and tree would call: oh Muslim, oh servant of God! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only "Gharkad" tree, it is of Jews' trees."

I had no idea the Muslims were so anal, so to speak, about visiting the john.

What are Ben F and Rizzo arguing about?

#35 Ploome

Thanks. That explains a lot I obseved or was told while working in the magic kingdom.

When I was at UT Austin in 1996 I'd go to Eastwoods park ( a little park by a creek across from the Law School on 26th street) to hang out with the other SPE dudes and dudettes and drink Shiner Bock.

Never took any Islamic history classes or anything, because back then, even after the first WTC bombing, I didn't think that a healthy percentage of them wanted me dead.

I know better. I was back in Austin last September for the PGE reunion, went to the UH game, my wife is a Houston grad and wore a red shirt. "Horns kicked butt, but a pulled hamstring cost 'em a chance against OU the following week in Dallas.

2nd glass of Carlo Rossi sangria from the big jug. Alternating between LFG and Brownsville radar loop showing Erika approaching
[Link: www.srh.noaa.gov...]

#56 CC Phil

you cant just stop there!!tell us everything

BTW, this probably is way TMI, but occasionally, I have "the perfect turd", where I go to wipe, the TP comes back clean, I do a second safety wipe, still clean, and I am most pleased, the paperwork is done.

Sometimes it takes a lot more wipes than that.

But on an average crap, three stones wouldn't come close. Are they smooth stones? Do you re-use the stone from different angles? What?

So my butt would be extremely itchy, and once again, if I was Big Mo, I'd be pissed off and killing people or hacking off hands or stoning woman or whatever.

I have so much more sympathy for Mo now.

I haven't read any of the earlier comments, nor do I think I need to, but even now I have to say that I agree (or are more inclined to agree) with Charles and others that there do not seem to be moderate Muslims. This, and so many others, state the case for itself.

This has been my only difference with some / many of the posters the past two years (too many names to mention, all great influences and detractors).

I'm afraid that the alternative is war. They insist, nay, brag about confrontation with us.

I'm afraid for them. They stopped learning what, around 631 AD?

We know what happens when the war is no longer by proxy or is guerilla. Bring it on, cocks**kers...

#58 ploome

While working at a Saudi military school the company got a contract to refurbish the building I worked in. I wasn't part of the project, but our latrine was included in the scope of work. The drain pipes all had to be replaced because over the years an aggrate had cemented itself into them. We wondered why there were so many rocks in the pipes and someone asked if thats what they used to wipe with. Now I know!

The latrine had both Western and Saudi stalls and all of them were equipped with flexible water hoses similar to those found in sinks here in the US to rinse dishes with. I've never been able to look at one of those since without shuddering.

Oh, when the latrines were redone, the ceiling tiles were made of burnished aluminum. The Saudi commander decided they had to come out because you could look up and see into the other stalls. No big deal for us Americans, but a real problem for the Saudis. We thought it was a quaint cultural thing. Didn't realize it religious.

My link keeps breaking down, so stay tuned.

Ed Moran:

This is funny:

What are Ben F and Rizzo arguing about?

But as to post #59 ... Have you lost your bloody mind!?

Can we not have some consensus here:

1. muslims are under an absolute obligation to reject democracy, because they are indoctrinated into believing that the system seizes sovereignty from mohammed's concocted deity.

[Link: www.jamaat.org...]

2. muslims only participate in democracy as a means to shariah ends, and the Bush government is serving up one-time democracy to the islamofascist majority in islamania.

[Link: www.milligazette.com...]

3. nominal muslim "moderates" are infiltrators of the democracies. The infiltration of the White House and the State Department by islamofascists - CAIR, AMC, ISNA/MSA, ICNA, etc - is the highest level penetration of the American government ever achieved by a movement hostile to America.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

4. the handful of muslims who deny that the only shariah sanctioned democratic participation is that which is instrumental to establishing an islamofascist dictatorship, are intergenerational aberrations. Muslim youth are far more extremist than their parents. The Muslim Students Association university offices are forward bases for al-Qaeda:

[Link: www.usc.edu...]
[Link: www.usc.edu...]

Incorporation of muslims within the human rights framework of the West, is licensing of jihad.

West Muslim = Traitor

RE: #61

Once, while driving from work back to our quarters, I was stopped at a traffic light and my friend poked in the ribs and asked if I had seen what had happened. I hadn't, so he told me.

An old Bedouin evidently had to go really bad, so just hiked up his thobe and squatted down on the curb. When he was finished he scooped up a handful of sand and gravel from the gutter and wiped with that.

I suppose that works as well as leaves I've used on occassion, but it's got to be kid of rough.

Zulubaby,

Well, ok, TMI.

Sorry about that.

I just can't get the image of trying to substitute rocks for TP out of my head. If Big MO didn't have Charmin, then his followers can't have Charmin.

This explains the whole Palestinian/al Qaeda/Sudan/Kashmir/Chechnya deal.

1/5 of the worlds population suffering from painful rectal itch.

If we could just airlift Tucks pads and Preparation H, we could have peace in the Middle East.

Just poured my third glass of Carlo Rossi Sangria from the jug.

Where's Clutch?

CamelProphet

the Orginization of Muslim Council.....all 57 countries....

do NOT recognize the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, 5 August 1990.

which states........

"ARTICLE 24:

All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah.

ARTICLE 25:

The Islamic Shari'ah is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification of any of the articles of this Declaration. "

#65 Ed Moran

The Saudis I worked with developed a liking for toilet paper. So much so that we had to start packing our own rolls because our budget didn't make allowances for them. The problem was, when the TP ran out they resorted to using the maxi-roll hand towels. The towels didn't degrade and ended up clogging the drains worse than the rocks.

#68 CC Phil

too funny

@65 Ed Moran

Man, that's got to be some gooooooood wine! *lol

I'm not sharing my TP with anyone!

The perfect turd, sounds like the title to a good story.

I don't know the Koran, but as a practicing Catholic, I have read Leviticus. Moses went into detail about a lot of stuff, even how long people had to wait until after a woman's period ended before people could get intimate again. Not cooking an animal's meat in the milk ( BTW, can Jews eat a cheeseburger and stay kosher?) A lot of interesting rules about living right.

But nowhere, did I ever read rules for when nature called. I don't know how the Israelites cleaned up out in the desert during the 40 years of wandering with not a whole lot of leafy bushes or trees around, but I guess G-d or Moses gave then enough credit to figure it out themselves without spelling it out in excruciating detail.

BTW, Erika, travelling over the delightfully comfy 31 C waters of the Gulf of Mexico 100 miles east of Brownsville, TX has dropped another millibar to 991 mb
584
URNT12 KNHC 160347
VORTEX DATA MESSAGE
A. 16/0347Z
B. 25 DEG 39 MIN N
95 DEG 41 MIN W
C. 700 MB 3058 M
D. NA
E. NA
F. 212 DEG 44 KT
G. 114 DEG 19 NM
H. EXTRAP 991 MB
I. 10 C/ 3083 M
J. 15 C/ 3056 M
K. 11 C/ NA
L. BANDING OPEN N
M. C20
N. 12345/7
O. 0.1/1 NM
P. AF984 0908A ERIKA OB 11
MAX FL WIND 67 KT NE QUAD 0213Z. SLP EXTRAP FROM 700MB.
SONDE RELEASE IN EYE AT FL CENTER YIELDED 76 KTS WIND AT 960MB
WITH AN SLP 996MB WITH SURFACE WINDS 290 AT 52 KTS.

I'm pretty sure I am the first minion to ever cut and paste a vortex data message from a US Air Force Reserve 53rd Weather Reconnasaince Squadron WC-130 Hurricane Hunter aircraft in any LFG thread.

First!

I am now feeling a mellow buzz. My wife asked while I am still on the computer. She just doesn't understand my fascination with tropical cyclones.

#72 Ed Moran

Yeah, I'm tracking it here. Claudette was closer than I expected and I don't like nasty surprises. Looks like Brownsville right now. But then it looked like Brownsville the last time, too.

71 Ed Moran

cheesburger NO, LOL

now regarding 'marital relations' and

"Moses went into detail about a lot of stuff, even how long people had to wait until after a woman's period ended before people could get intimate again"

In the Jewish marriage, the woman is in control of sex. These customs and laws have been enforced for thousands of years, when the usual status of women was often very poor.

All Jewish marriges are contracted through a Ketuba, a written marriage contract, describing the rights and property due to the woman.

The laws concerning "family purity" sexual relations are designed to allow the woman the most control over her own body...

and allow for a period of privacy and seperateness, which actually enhances and maintains mutual respect and sexual tension.

Um, Ploome, in the Catholic marriage the woman is in control of sex.

At least that's the way my marriage works.

Of course, that just means I have to help out around the house and be generally pleasant.

Ed Moran (#65)

Just poured my third glass of Carlo Rossi Sangria from the jug.

So that's your excuse.

76 Ed Moran

good boy.:-P

LOL

#78 ploome

That's disgusting.

whats disgusting.?

he is very sweet...

Andrew Bostom (#22) describes Prof. Fadl as:

this very disingenuous waxing/waning Islamist . . .

As you can see from this link and from the quote, below, Prof. Fadl was indeed a paid-in-full member of the Peas in our Time camp last spring, which might well be a symptom either of his devotion to Islamacism or, alternatively, depraved indifference to the consequences of appeasement.

But why not entertain the notion that just possibly he's a mild mannered, hyper-bibliophiliac, ethereally intellectual, not-entirely-of-this-world scholar?

Which is to say, a species of pussy cat.

There are such creatures out there, you know. And perhaps we should be glad there are, even if their plaintiff meows sometimes bespeak an innocence verging dangerously on paralysis.

Initially, Abou el Fadl thought a strike against Iraq could be moral if it were truly welcomed as liberation by the Iraqi population. Now, he said, after watching days of news coverage, reading voluminous reports on the war and consulting with his intelligence and diplomatic contacts, he has concluded otherwise.

He now believes that most Iraqis see the coalition effort as an invasion and an attempt to repeat the British colonial domination of their land. He opposes the war as immoral and mistrusts the intentions of his government.

Ed Moran,

And with that, since you're having all that good wine to yourself....a good night!

#81 ploome

Helping around the house doesn't turn a man into a boy. That's a sexist stereotype.

Mrs Moran is a lucky woman

he is funny, smart, helps around the house...

an ideal man

81

Thanks

#85 ploome

That's better :-)

Some men are boys.

MrPol

so you think I'm a condescending sexist

LOL

I believe in equal rights for men

#89 ploome

so you think I'm a condescending sexist

No, I believe your earlier comment was repeating a sexist stereotype. But I don't think you meant it.

if Mr Moran has a clone, there are a few thing I need done

at my house...

:-P

#88 zulubaby

Some men are boys.

The difference is the toys we get to play with.

ploome (#91)

LOL! You're so funny.

and speaking of moderates, Some common sense from Arab news?

[Link: www.arabnews.com...]

CC Phil (#92)

I'm leaving that one alone ;-)

94 Jewels (aka Julian)

temporary aberration, I;m sure

A horbe of 150 Lebanese "vented their fury" and mobbed a Beirut TV studio, chanting "With our blood and souls, we sacrifice for you Melhem."

Guess what they were protesting? ...

--- the elimination of a Lebanese contestant from an Arab Superstar singing contest.

link

OT:

FOX NEWS ALERT

Idi Amin has finally cashed in his chips

We resume your regular broadcast.

##94, 96--

No aberration; Amir Taheri is one of the good guys.

Ed #55--

The conversation ended when I tired of the name-calling. Life is too short.

Ed #71--

Cheeseburgers are fine so long as it's a soy "cheese" or a veggie "burger."

ulululululululuul

“moderate Muslim”

We would go a long way toward solving the "cultural misunderstandings" that have plunged the world into fear, if we did away with false and misleading taglines such as the one above.

You are either Muslim or not.
You either believe that the Koran is the unchangable and infinite word of Allah, applicable to all ages, all situations, and all persons, or you don't.
You either believe in jihad (the struggle for domination of Islam), or you don't.
You either accept that Shari'ah is the divine law given to the prophet Muhammad by Allah, as explained and exampled in the Hadith and Sunna, or you don't.

You do=Muslim.
You don't=infidel/kaffir/"moderate"/apostate.

Until Westerners realize this, we are not going to make any progress in the WoT or in the push for "peace". We need to back up our platitudes about cherishing human rights and freedom by taking steps toward eradicating this deadly ideology that has enslaved hundreds of millions, killed millions more, and oppressed a sea of people beyond imagining.

Until we--as freedom loving people--do that, all the steps we have taken are elementary and trod in vain.
.....................
.................................................. ......
....
.....................
faster please.....................

OT

Idi Amin dies in Saudi Arabia

jj

CC Phil

This just in: Generalisimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

Here's the link

In 1976 a Palestinian group hijacked an Air France airliner to Entebbe Airport in Uganda and kept its Israeli passengers as hostages. Israeli commandos flew to Entebbe under cover of darkness and rescued the captives. Amin claimed he had been trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution, but there was plenty of evidence that he was in league with the hijackers.

Well, I recall we had some "fun" with that recently. Lying (dead) bastard.

Amin's overreaching designs led to his downfall after his troops failed in their attempt to annex parts of Tanzania in Oct. 1978. Tanzanian troops counter-invaded, routed Amin's Soviet- and Arab-equipped army and reached the Ugandan capital, Kampala, in April 1979.

Tanzania??? Friggin' incompetent lying (dead) bastard.

Amin, meanwhile, moved into a luxury house in the Red Sea port city of Jiddah, with cars, drivers, cooks and maids paid for by the Saudi government. He would occasionally telephone journalists abroad to announce fantastical schemes to reconquer Uganda, or to protest against cuts in his gasoline allowance. But the Saudis got angry and made him stop.

Friggin' insufferably arrogant incompetent lying (dead) bastard.

No virgins for you, Idi Amin: you ATE yours already.

:^P

#29

Mr. Spencer, for a Muslim to stand up and apologize for Jihad simply is not possible........he/she would be denying a part of there faith.......indeed, when Christians got out of hand with nasty behavior, they could always point to the teachings of Christ to correct them and thus lead to a more responsible, peaceful member of society...

A muslim, to return to there Koranic and Sahih Hadith roots is returning to a dangerous intolerant path where the most vile excesses of Muhammed are on full display!!

And essentially, this is what your wonderful book is saying on this subject..........in reality, the brutalities of Islam are built into it from the beginning my Muhammeds teachings and actions.....

I can't see how we can ever reform Islam short of editing its early writings, a remote possibility to say the least!!

Good points otherwise!!!

Devon Hill

Proud Darul Harbian
Ashamed Canadian

I wanted to chime in on the Jewish Cheesebuger question.

To keep kosher, meat and dairy must absolutely NOT be mixed...not only during meals, but in preparation. You cannot microwave meat and dairy in the same microwave (even separately, even after cleaning it). You must also use separate containers for storage that are exclusively for meat or dairy (even if you do wash it, and also you have to use separate cleaning rags/pads for meat or diary).

The local grocer where I shop (and I live in area with a high population of Orthodox Jews) sell colour coded cleaning rags, containers, even labels to designate meat/dairy.

cheshirecat

cheshirecat (#108)

You cannot microwave meat and dairy in the same microwave (even separately, even after cleaning it).

Actually, you can use the same microwave for meat and dairy (obviously not at the same time.) Besides wanting to correct that, I'm not sure what the point of that post was.

Besides wanting to correct that, I'm not sure what the point of that post was.

See #71

It depends on how fastidious you are. I know Orthodox Jews who won't even the same oven for meat and dairy (even if they use a disposable liner).

YMMV

cheshirecat

And here I was thinking that you were plotting to kill LFG.

Well, as long as it is slaughtered in a Kosher manner.

And no damn cheese!

cheshirecat

zulubaby, cheshirecat

Forgive my ignorance, but reference mixing meat and dairy at a meal, does this mean you can't have a milkshake with the hamburger, either?

Forgive my ignorance, but reference mixing meat and dairy at a meal, does this mean you can't have a milkshake with the hamburger, either?

That is correct. You have to wait (I believe) three hours or so after ingesting meat to have dairy.

Unless it is a soy shake (eww).

cheshirecat

#114 cheshirecat

Thanks for the reply.

Unless it is a soy shake (eww).

I'll pass and go with a beer.

zulubabe:

I must admit that I am woefully ignorant on Judaism and its laws. It seems I have been spending a little more time researching a certain religion (that shall remain nameless) and neglected the rounding out of my education.
Do you have any good links regarding Jewish dietary rules or other interesting dogma/tradition/practices?

Just for the record, I find the continued belief in dietary rules--in the modern era--very...vexing.
I'm falling back on a little pop culture here, but Chris Rock does a bit about dietary restrictions and religion in his stand up "Bring the Pain". I found it funny and think it applies to my question:
(Paraphrasing):
"What you eat ain't got shit to do with who you are as a person. I refuse to believe that on judgement day, my diet is going to come into question.
'God, I killed a bunch of kids, but I ate right!'"

Can you see where I'm coming from on this?

Just as an aside, please tell me if these questions offend you. I'm not a very religious person, and as I stated before, I'm not completely up on Judaism 101 and I don't want to anger one of my board faves...
:-)

Celissa, I don't know what you would consider interesting dogma/tradition/practices, but I am sure that every religion has some traits that appear to be absolutely insane from the outside. Googling talmud fingernail clippings should suffice to establish the point vis-a-vis Judaism.

Here is an exposition of the dietary laws that you may find intriguing. If some of the logic of this article reminds you of things you may have encountered on some Islamic websites, there is a reason; there are very significant differences between Judaism and Islam, but the faiths have a great deal in common also.

#117 Ben F.

I know about the fingernail clipping thing, but thanks for the links. I've been meaning to read up on Judaism, but with illnesses in the family and a big move coming up, I've been short on time.

#107

"Mr. Spencer, for a Muslim to stand up and apologize for Jihad simply is not possible........he/she would be denying a part of there faith......."

Exactly so, but to say that they would have to deny what is now considered part of their faith is not precisely the same thing as saying that it's not possible. Admittedly, it's the longest of longshots, but what other hope is there for long-term reform? It would at least be a beginning for non-Muslims to recognize this record of oppression and to start to call for this reform in large numbers.

"I can't see how we can ever reform Islam short of editing its early writings, a remote possibility to say the least!!"

Yes. But I'm setting the bar high here, since anything short of this leaves the root of the problem in place, ready to germinate again whenever conditions are right. Cf. the recent Saudi cleric sackings: just as they were happening, criticism of Ibn Taymiyya was punished. But with Ibn Taymiyya still revered, the new clerics will be as bad as the old. And that's just one symptom, of course.

Thanks for your kind words. My new book, "Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West," deals with all this in detail. It will be available next month from Regnery Publishing.

SoCalJustice (30),

What's truly needed are not "moderates" but "radicals" - from the opposite end of the spectrum as the Islamofacists.

I think Hamid Karzai is one of these.

No cheeseburgers! Heavens, how would I survive? Is clipping my toes in the backyard grass OK? I think the ants cart them away pretty quickly. So all religions seem to have at least a couple of wacky beliefs. No other religion is in Islam's league for xenophobia and the hunger for conquest.

Is Idi really dead this time? I hope so! He would be a waste of a donor kidney, as he was a waste of our good oxygen.

Um, feeling a little bit off my game after three tall glasses of Carlo Rossi sangria and staying up to 1 am than having both children waking up a few hours apart.

Mrs. Moran would disagree with you that I do enough around the house. She would be sort of right to. Especially diapers. When they are infants, they are easy to change, but I haven't mastered keeping a struggling two year old still with one hand while changing the diaper with the other.

I don't know if I could make it as a Jew. The circumcison thing wasn't bad, they did that to me as a baby at Flushing Hospital ( near Shea Stadium) and it couldn't have been that bad, I don't remember it, but keeping so organized about the food would have me messing up all the time. As a Catholic, I slip up and eat meat on a Friday during Lent, I can go to confession. I take it Jews have to wait until the day of Atonement each year to shed their sins?

It's actually a smart thing not to mix meat and dairy cos a) it's fattening and b) calcium inhibits iron absorption.

There you go. My worthless twoppence. Recommended by 9 nutritionists out of 10. ;-)

Not a lot of posting on any of the threads today.

Perhaps that is because the devout Jews are observing the Sabbath. I know the Sabbath in Israel ends a little after lunch time here in Houston, because there was a period where the suicide bombers seemed to target the time right after the Sabbath ended to kill, and the news would always show up on Fox about 1 or 2 pm here.

But anyway, I guess the Israeli posters will be back here in a couple of hours.

I was just looking at the LGF thread I found visiting an anti-idiotarian web site linked to in the latest Pali child abuse thread. Reading someone named William trying to argue a point with Voice of Iceland. I suspect VFI is really a decent person deep down, but she just doesn't take a clue when something is really wrong or somebody is really either stupid or evil. But perhaps she'll eventually slowly learn through osmosis reading here. That'd be nice, someone turned from defending stupidity and/or evil to seeing the light.

#12 Martin Kramer, #22 Andrew Bostom, # 29 Robert Spencer:

Wow! Three heavyweight experts on Islam in a single thread in a privately run discussion board -- I believe this is unique!

Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to contribute. I hope you return often.

Note: By singling out these three prominent people, I do not mean to disparage the "regular contributors" on this board, from whom I have learned immensely in past months.

Oh, dear. We're talking kosher again. Are we going to have a reprise of The Thread That Killed LGF?

#121 Craig

Yes, the evil bastard has gone to meet his maker!
Shtoopidity, however, is alive and well:

Ugandans reacted to his death with a mixture of relief at the demise of a tyrant, tinged with nostalgia for a leader who many Ugandans applauded for expelling the Asians who dominated much of the economy in 1972. "I'm not happy, because Amin was for the local people. I have been praying that he would come back one day and become president again," said Mary Kimeme, 80, a grandmother preparing beans and bananas in her kitchen in Kampala. "I miss him."

And the Ugandan economy has been in the shitter ever since. Nice sentiment. I suppose all mass murderers have their groupies.

On a spooky but unrelated topic, three, and possibly four people at West Virginia gas stations have been killed by a sniper in the last few days. I'm assuming a copycat to John Mohammed. I get the impression there aren't a lot of black or ME people in WV, so it is probably the proverbial angry white male nutjob, but I wrote an email to Michelle Malkin when she had suggested it wasn't an angry white male during the DC shootings, and it turned out she was right then and I was wrong, but I'm guessing angry white male nutjob.

Still scary that you never know when some nut will take a shot at you while pumping gas.

#127 Ed Moran

Funny (and very sad) how sniper killings in the DC area were the top national story for weeks, but when it happens WV redneck country the first place I hear about it is Fark.com.

Still scary that you never know when some nut will take a shot at you while pumping gas.

*Feebly attempting to resist gratuitous Steve Martin referrence...*

Defective oil cans?

I love contemplating the musings of academics. Its what drives me to the streets of America to bath in the unbelievable common sense of ordinary folks. All this intricate dissecting of Islamic law is nothing more than mind bending barriers to the truth. I would just like two simple questions answered. One- Does Prof. Fadl accept U.N. resolution 242, and does he believe Isreal should exist as a free and undisturbed Jewish state? Furthermore, will he write his responses down in Arabic and English for the world to see?As far as I'm concerned anything less than a simple yes or no eliminates him as a moderate.

#122 Ed Moran asks:

As a Catholic, I slip up and eat meat on a Friday during Lent, I can go to confession. I take it Jews have to wait until the day of Atonement each year to shed their sins?

Yes and no. Yes, in that atonement is granted annually. No, in that most Jews who are sufficiently traditional and devout to worry about the dietary laws and the like are also sufficiently traditional and devout to say their daily prayers, which include praying for forgiveness.

An important part of the prayer service is called the Shemona Esrei, which is Hebrew for 18 (also known as the Amidah, meaning standing, which one does when reciting these blessings). It consists of 19 blessings which, you can well imagine, is a story in itself.

You can find a very detailed study of the Shemona Esrei here, with articles for each blessing. The blessing seeking forgiveness (selach) follows immediately after the blessing seeking repentence (tshuva). The pairing and the order of these two blessings are not accidental. The article on selach explains the technical difference between forgiveness (selach) and atonement (kapparah).

Moderate Muslim manifesto:

1. Although the Holocaust never happened, we pretend that it did when the subject comes up in the company of liberal infidels (especially journalists).

2. Israel has the right to exist as a temporary transition to a permanent Muslim state. We accept the Roadmap as the best way to accomplish this goal.

3. We support diversity and tolerance - of Muslims in non-Muslim countries - as a temporary transition to permanent global Sharia, although we avoid mentioning the latter in the company of non-Muslims (especially journalists).

If he sounds moderate, it's probably not what he really believes. What they say in english is what they want Westerners to think, what they say in Arabic is what they really mean.

Robert Spencer #119:

I'll purchase a copy of your new book at the first opportunity. Welcome to lgf. You need to know that at least half of the posters here defer all judgment to President Bush, thus are dependent thinkers. I post Bush's Orwellian' "islam is peace" junk-think a couple of times a week in an attempt to provide academic toilet-training to these tunnel-vision puppies.

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

Could you tell these puppies that they cannot credibly discuss islam's genocide war against the West, without opening their minds to facts concerning the doctrinal obligation that the koran and hadith impose on the West's fanatic mortal enemies? They make sweeping pronouncements about the reformability of muslims, re. civilized norms, while denying both the impossibility of reform and the muslim obligation to use strategic deceit (al-taqiyah) to cultivate useful idiots (dhimmis) in the West. They could learn a great deal about the muslim obligation to both jihad and blood-shahada, by clicking the attached link:

[Link: www.usc.edu...]

The general wilful blindness about the genocidal threat of islam will not abate until there is general consensus in the West that our human rights framework cannot continue to be used as a cover for muslim aggression.

Celissa (#116)

This may offer some insight into Jewish dietary laws (Kashrut)

...I'm not completely up on Judaism 101 and I don't want to anger one of my board faves...

The site is called Judaism 101 ;-)

#135
zulubaby:

The site is called Judaism 101 ;-)

LMAO!
How....appropriate!

Celissa (#136)

How....appropriate!

Isn't it but! I had to laugh! I really do like that site though. You should bookmark it if you're interested...

You mean Islam isn't a Religion of Peace? Shit, I've been fooled by Bush again.

That Bastard is just a big fat liar.

I remember him telling us over and over again how he had no plans on the table to invade Iraq, and look how he lied to us about that.

I'm never trusting that diabolically conniving idiot again.

Martin Kramer #12:

It doesn't matter if Qaradawi publicly condemns certain acts of suicide terror, because all muslims are bound to endorse these in certain circumstances. In May of 2001, I downloaded a Chechen fatwa from [Link: www.qoqaz.com,...] which dealt with the shariah legality of a suicide-massacre commited by a female Chechen jihadi genocidist. The authors - unknown - cited dogma from all five schools of muslim fiqh (jurisprudence) and concluded:

"All...texts prohibiting suicide related to killing oneself for worldly motives such as pain or anguish or lack of patience, and not for raising aloft the Word of Allah...We say that the prohibition of suicide is on account of its resulting from weakness or lack of faith, whereas the Mujahid in a martyrdom operation is killing himself on account of the strength of his faith...the Prophet wished for death in the Path of Allah not once but thrice...when the rationale of the prohibition of suicide becomes clear, one arrives at the conclusion that martyrdom operations are permissible and praiseworthy when undertaken for some religious benefit...We have arrived at the conclusions that martyrdom operations are permissible, and in fact the Mujahid who is killed in them is better than one who is killed fighting in the ranks, for there are gradations even among martyrs, corresponding to their role, action effort (sic) and risk undertaken...such operations could take on any of the five Sharia verdicts depending on intention and circumstances. Finally, we clarified that taking one's life is not always blameworthy; rather it is contigent on the motives behind it..."

I also downloaded fatwa citations of Mohammed's extermination of 900 male members of the Banu Qurazay (a Jewish tribe which resided near Yethrib, cum "Medina"). That genocide sunna ("prophet" exemplary) reveals that if muslims are not made subject to intense repression, at the earliest opportunity, then they will use WMD against the West at the earliest opportunity. And the current electrical power failures, coupled with the reform rhetoric in the State Department and Wahabi owned White House, reveal our vulnerability to our mortal enemy. There are two types of muslims: those who finance terror, and those who practice terror. Some measure of every muslim zakat (charity) collection ends up in the hands of terrorists. That enemy is getting bigger, angrier and closer. The following is inescapable:

ISLAM IS TERROR; MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS.

Again OT, but an unnamed doctor at St. Joseph's hospital in Houston was killed today when the doors to the elevator he was boarding closed, decapitating him. A female patient was trapped with his head for over an hour.

The hospital has shut down all the elevators in the building until the cause can be found.

I didn't think elevator doors closed fast/hard enough to decapitate, but they do.

There seems to be the feeling among some posters on this thread that all those who call themselves Muslim have the same thinking, voice the same opinions, and act the same way. This is not true.

Are there differences between Muslims? Let's compare.

The Ayatollah Khomeini advocated murder of all non-Muslims. He said by doing that, Muslims would be doing them a favor, since if they were not murdered by Muslims they would be going to hell -- or some such drivel as that.

Or, you can find your own extreme statements by the raving lunatic murderers who are radical Islamists.

Let me give you a very different point of view from a Muslim in the US.

Here is an article by Tashbih Sayyed.
[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

"The sad truth, however, is that those 'murderers and attackers' [to which the president referred] are today heroes of Palestinian society. Opinion polls in the past three years consistently show that over 60 percent of Palestinians support bombings and violence inside Israel. Suicide/homicide bombers are held up as role models in schools and mosques. City plazas and stadiums are named after them. Their pictures are plastered all over the walls of Gaza and proudly displayed in their parents' living rooms. Children are encouraged by teachers and authority figures to follow in their footsteps and sacrifice themselves for the Palestinian cause. All day long, Palestinian Authority television bradcasts videos that show 'martyrs' being greeted by beautiful 'virgins' in the fountains of heaven, their reward for killing Jews..."

"Terrorists not only benefit from wide support through Palestinian society, they embody only too well the deepest hopes of the majority: to destroy the Jewish state. Over 50 percent of Palestinians say that the goal of this intifada is not a two-state solution, but the destructioin of Israel -- referred to as 'ending the occupation of territories lost in 1948'."

"This mindset is not accident. It is the result of over 50 years of relentless indoctrination. Arab dictators, the PLO and radical Islamist movements have used the media, mosques and universities to present Jews as unholy intruders, occupiers, murderers, and enemies of Islam. It is the result of an orchestrated effort to transform as many Palestinians as possible into revenge-seeking, hate-filled souls. "

"The Palestinian narrative of oppression at the hands of 'foreign occupiers' ignores the deep historic, religious, and cultural ties that bind the Jewish nation to Jerusalem and the Holy Land."

"To create a Palestinian state before this mindset is changed can only ensure that the new state will be yet another terrorist sponsor. And that will have much broader consequences than merely empowering Palestinians to continue their genocidal campaign against Jews in the Middle East. Such a victory would galvanize Islamist terrorist movements worldwide."

"Just as the humiliation of losing the Ottoman Empire in 1924 has become associated in the Muslim psyche with the 'shame' of the establishment of Israel, militant muslims worldwide believe that destroying the Jewish state will once and for all reopen the road to their eternal domination of other faiths."

"If Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims worldwide see a Palestinian state created before the terrorist movements and extremist ideologies are discredited and defeated, they will be convinced that terrorism succeeds where other apporaches have failed. That can only engender more terrorism, directed not only at Israel but also at the United States and the rest of the free world."
-- Tashbih Sayyed, an American of the Muslim persuasion, editor of Pakistan Today, and an adjunct fellow of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Do all those who call themselves Muslim think, speak, and act alike? They do not.

Here's a view supporting the nomination of Daniel Pipes to the USIP:
[Link: www.paktoday.com...]

"Tashbih Sayyed, President of Council for Democracy and Tolerance, condemned the policies of militant Islamists and organizations like CAIR and MPAC (Muslim Public Affairs Council) of demonizing American policies. He pointed out that the United States of America has welcomed Muslims with open arms, irrespective of their sect and ethnicity, and it is the duty of all American Muslims to condemn these representatives of Islamist extremism."

"Mr. Sayyed sid that Daniel Pipes is a true American, and as an American it is his holy obligatioin to warn the nation of terror and threat posed by militant Islamists and their representative organizations to destroy American peace and solidarity. He said, 'President Bush won my heart that he is serious about fighting terror -- and fostering a more peaceful world -- when he nominated Daniel Pipes to the board of directors at the U.S. Institute of Peace.' "

"Tashbih Sayyed said that Pipes scares the Islamists because he has their number."

"Tashbih insisted that Pipes' aim is not to smear Islam or Muslims. 'He goes the extra mile to distinguish between Islam, which he respects, and its militant form.'"

"He said that Daniel Pipes has always worked to support Islam and Muslims. Militant Islam is definitely not something that should be supported and Daniel Pipes has a duty to work against Islamists. He stressed that if the world had listened to people like Daniel Pipes, there would not have been any September 11."

Some folks on this thread seem to be under the impression that all those who call themselves Muslim actually think, speak, and act alike. It isn't true.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

"Most Islamic centers and mosques in the United States are controlled by militant Islamists committed to destroying the very nature of America." -- Tashbih Sayed

#119

I know you and Mr. Pipes believe in the reformation idea of Islam and you suggest what is the alternative?

I say this.........far more realistic then some reformation that cannot be allowed by Orthodox Islam is the continued exposing of the Islam proper from either brilliant Ex Muslims like Dr. Ali Sina or Warraq or many others or writings from people like Maxine Rodinson, yourself, Serge Triviocic (excuse spelling), and countless others!

By doing this, we are exposing Muslims for the first time in there history to free speech via the internet and new ideas about islam that they have never heard....
I mean, to think that Muhammed was less then a Gentleman is unheard of too the Islamic masses....

And we are seeing positvie results........In Iran, droves of Muslims have abandoned Islam, Berbers in Algeria, Some Kurds, Many many Indonesians also.....

With Light, darkness is exposed.........as longs as we can reach the Muslim masses with the full account of unsavory Islam, we can turn them away from this numbing ideology!

I know my words are not pc, but they do reflect the Truth and Islam uniquely, has been on a 1400 year Blitzkrieg, whether by literal force or in spirit!!!

For the first time in its history, we are able to reach Islamic masses with the reality of Muhammeds full teachings and this is all a complete novelty for our Muslim freinds who are hearing for the first time about Muhammeds murder of 800 innocent Jews, his bedding of a 9 year old, his thieving of other tribes, his murder of poets, and so so much more!

And all we have to do is to quote Islamic sources....the brutality is all there.....

Thank you

Devon Hill

Proud Darul Harbian

Some posters on this thread can speak ONLY for themselves. It is not for some posters to this thread to make the assumption that they know all, about every person who is a poster here.
There are some posters on this thread that would do well to stop trolling, kicking the shithouse and find out if what is coming out of their mouth is fact.
There are some posters on this thread that are just factually dumber than dirt.

TROLL

Some people seem to want to give the impression that all Muslims are a single bloc that think the same, speak the same, and act the same.

This letter to the WaPo criticizing them for opposing Pipes is by one Muslim who speaks differently than the CAIR opponents of Daniel Pipes, and who doesn't consider all Muslims as being a single bloc.
[Link: www.supportingdanielpipes.org...]

"To begin with, 'Muslims' are not a single bloc. Yes, apologists for Osama bin Laden and Yasser Arafat take issue with Pipes's work, but many other Muslims support it. To wit: While your paper opposes his nominateion, the California-based weekly that I publish, Pakistan Today, endorsed him."

"At best, your editorial confuses Pipes's opposition to militant Islam with opposition to Islam as a whole. At worst, it reduces all Muslim opinion to an enthisiasm for a totalitarian form of the religion. Fortunately, a broader spectrum of Muslim opinion exists. Unfortunately, many anti-militant Muslims do not speak out, fearful of retribution even in the United States."

"The premise of the U.S. government over the past decade has been that political activism on behalf of Islam is or can be made moderate. Sept. 11 should have made clear the falsehood of this assumption. Had the true nature of militant Islam been better recognized, thousands of lives might have been saved;
worse, we now jeopardize more lives by not shaking off lazy attitudes, especially in such critical areas as immigration policy and law enforcement."

I, for one, appreciate what Daniel Pipes is doing because I fled my homeland of Pakistan to escape militant Islam. The Senate should confirm his nomination to the U.S. Institute of Peace." --- Tashbih Sayyed, editor in chief of Pakistan Today.

He's an American of the Muslim persuasion, and he speaks very differently than the Ayatollah Khomeini, don't you think?

#146

Uh, no question that Muslims do not form a monolith!!
There are secular muslims, liberal muslims, sufis, Ismailies, Nominal muslims etc etc as well as the growing army of Orthodox and thus dangerous muslims!

What we are saying here and elsewhere is that ISLAM as correctly practiced, is the problem and represents the danger to all of us!!

There is no such thing as a peaceful benign Orthodox Islam!!

Thankfully, many Muslims do not follow every cruel dictate of the Levantian madman and to that we are all grateful.

Devon Hill

Proud Darul Harbian

Some people are absolutely convinced that all Muslims think, speak, and act alike.

First, think of the ravings of the lunatic rabid radical Islamists. Think of the hatred between faiths that they are trying to promote. Think of Ayatollah Khomeini, who taught that all infidels are evil, and must be murdered.

Now, here is a guy who calls himself a Muslim, who acts very differently: Khalid Duran.
[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

"Moderate Muslim Khalid Duran gets Rushdie treatment for book explaining Islam to Jews"

"Khalid Duran thought his book on Islam for Jews would improve relations between the faiths. Instead, it has brought a death threat."

"Khalid Duran is a marked man. A few weeks ago, Sheikh Abdulmunem Abu Zant, a leader of Jordan's militant Islamic Action Front, charged him with apostasy and called for his death."

"... Duran's volume is a stinging indictment of what he sees as the growing danger of extremist Muslim political ideology (termed 'Islamism' since the 1970s). "

-- article by Karen Yourish in The Jerusalem Report.

Very different views than those of the Ayatollah Khomeini, don't you think?

I was reading the Judaism 101 link (see above), and I found this rather amusing under Kosher certification:

The cost [of certification] is more than justified by the increase in sales it produces: although observant Jews are only a small fragment of the marketplace, kosher certification is also relied upon by many Muslims

:)

cheshirecat
(killing LGF, one post at a time)

#147 Devon Hill
Glad you agree that Muslims are not a monolith.

I think that there is a variety of beliefs/speech/actions across the ummah, where at one end you have the radical Islamists, including the jihadis, and at the other end you have people who are opposed, some even strongly opposed, to the radical Islamists. The ones opposed to radical Islamists are what Pipes calls "moderates", and those are the ones to focus on as possible allies, particularly the ones among them who are not anti-US, and the ones who may even like the US.

Pipes includes various reasons for not opposing all Muslims. Among them, he includes one very practical reason: Muslims constitute 1.2 billion people, or 1/6 of the whole world's population. And you cannot convert or quarantine 1/6 of the world's population. (See the last chapter of his book, Militant Islam Reaches America).

Devon Hill, you write "Islam as correctly practiced...". I find it confusing to try to figure out who is the judge as to how Islam should be correctly practiced.

Do we concede the field to the radical Islamists who say that Islam as correctly practiced means: all you Muslims must go out and murder them damned infidels?

And is it necessary that people that say that the practice of Islam can be peaceful must be treated as apostates, as the fatwa against Khalid Duran seems to imply?

What is wrong with hoping that the more peaceful interpretations of Islam gain some legitimacy
among the ummah, the Muslims throughout the world ? This might reduce the number of crazed lunatics that there are out there whose mission in life is to murder us.

Let's consider the US. If there can develop a distinctly American form of Islam, where the loyalty of American Muslims practicing it would be to America, and not to the world-wide ummah, wouldn't that be a good thing. I'd like to see that happen, but trashing everything about their religion isn't going to get them to trust non-Muslims. Personally, I'm not a Muslim, and that religion is not for me, thank you, I have my own. But I think that saying that to be a Muslim you have to be a radical Islamist or a jihadist etc. is not giving them the kind of support that I think the anti-radicals deserve.

BTW, I am not calling for lying favorably about Islam either. A lie is a lie, no matter in which direction it goes.

Just let's be truthful. Let's give people the range of views concerning Islam -- tell 'em about the rabid lunatics who focus on power and jihad; and tell 'em about the folks who think that there is a peaceful version of Islam that can be practiced.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

rayra (#104),

Thanks for the links.

CheshireCat,

You're pretty odd posting on a site full of Jews to show off your vague understanding of Kashrut.

The local grocer where I shop (and I live in area with a high population of Orthodox Jews)

If it's in Cheshire, which has a few mainly modern Orthodox communities, I can't think it's as high a population as you think. Maybe North Manchester, which isn't Cheshire.

(killing LGF, one post at a time)

You for real? What does this mean?

God, Dom, what irks me is people who jump into a thread without reading the whole thing!

CheshireCat,
You're pretty odd posting on a site full of Jews to show off your vague understanding of Kashrut.

You are pretty odd for assuming I am not a Jew (I may be, for all you know)

The local grocer where I shop (and I live in area with a high population of Orthodox Jews)

If it's in Cheshire, which has a few mainly modern Orthodox communities, I can't think it's as high a population as you think. Maybe North Manchester, which isn't Cheshire.

Well, I don't live in the UK, I live in Ohio, in a perdominately Jewish village, and I'm a stone's throw away from two shuls, so perhaps I know a little bit about Kashrut.

(killing LGF, one post at a time)

You for real? What does this mean?

It means you haven't read post #71, or #111...try reading the whole thread before you play judge and jury....thank you!

cheshirecat

I was guessing you weren't Orthodox Jewish from little qualifiers like 'I believe'

You have to wait (I believe) three hours or so after ingesting meat to have dairy.

I was trying to think of an especially Jewish area in Cheshire but, clearly I was on the wrong lines.

My unreserved apologies for my dumb mistake.

Another kosher discussion. Just great. OK, a few things:

1) A microwave can only be used for both meat and dairy if the food is covered. Once the microwave is used for meat, for example, the "taste" of the food gets absorbed in to the walls of the microwave, and can be transferred to the dairy food if it is cooked uncovered. See here for a technical discussion of the topic (WARNING! Hebrew terms! Ask if you aren't sure what anything means.)

2) There must be complete separation between meat and dairy foods. This includes separate dishes and utensils for each, separate ovens if possible (or keeping the food covered while cooking), and waiting between eating meat and milk. Generally, we wait 6 hours between eating meat and eating milk. The custom to wait only three hours was practiced only in communities of German Jews, and today, almost all Orthodox Jews of German decent wait six hours as well.

3) Celissa, I would suggest the book On Judiasm by Rabbi Emanuel Feldman, formerly of Atlanta. It's a converstaion between a rabbi and a prospective student, and he deals with many common questions that people pose about Judaism and Jewish law.

4) If anybody's going to be killing LGF, it will be me. :)

I knew I forgot a few things. Ploome (#75) , you're right on target when you say that the power in the marriage belongs to the woman. To those who say that Judaism is sexist, I usually respond, "It sure is, but not in the way that you think!".

Ed (#71),

But nowhere, did I ever read rules for when nature called. I don't know how the Israelites cleaned up out in the desert during the 40 years of wandering with not a whole lot of leafy bushes or trees around, but I guess G-d or Moses gave then enough credit to figure it out themselves without spelling it out in excruciating detail.

You aren't going to find those laws until after the Jews left the desert for a very simple reason: while in the desert, the Jews ate manna, which, according to Jewish tradition was totally absorbed by the body, leaving no refuse at all. I'm sorry, but I don't have a source to give off the top of my head, and google's no help on this one. Searching for +Jews +desert +excrement doesn't lead to anything useful, that's for sure!

Avi (#155)

Another kosher discussion. Just great.

I know, couldn't face going through that again! LOL.

My unreserved apologies for my dumb mistake.

Forgiven, just watch where'e'r you leap, that's all. :)

cheshirecat

PS. Actually, I think it ranges from 3-6 hours after meat to eat dairy, and from dairy-meat, just rinsing the mouth and eating something neutral in between.

C'mon people, let's push this thread up, babies!

Chesirecat,

It's true that when going from milk to meat, only approx. 15 minutes are required, plus a drink to wash out one's mouth. You'd be pretty hard-pressed, though, to find someone in the Orthodox community who waits anything less than 6 hours after eating meat. There may be a few individuals with strong family traditions (as I mentioned, the tradition in Germany was to wait 3 hours, and I believe that in the Netherlands the custom was to wait only one hour), but I haven't met anyone in the Orthodox community in America who waits only 3 hours.

Spiney Norman: Im in the DC area. The WV Sniper case is on our local news and has been since they realized it might be a sniper. They arent positive its the same guy now..but soon as they had enough bodies..and bullets then it was reported. Charles.WV is a far out suburb of DC..since lots of Fed. Workers (waay more than before) go back and forth ....They even include the WV weather when they are involved in a big weather event. I was born here in DC..lived here all my life and have watched DC news area expand to include places as far out as Ch. W Va.

I'm haven't ever kept Kosher..but IF you feel as if you want to keep up the practice, it is a perfectly valid way of eating. Once you learn it, it isn't all THAT hard...And by the way keeping Kosher is in style now ..there has been a fabulous updating of the Recipies..Newer updated and Gourmet type Kosher cookbooks are fying off the shelves..If they ever stop shooting at Israelis..you will see Israeli Chefs really doing something fantastic with Kosher cuisine trying to match the other Ethnic Cuisines.

Thankfully, there are all sorts of substitutions you can make. Cheeseburger? If you want the taste of cheese (not completely but close) you can use the substitutions out there easily. Just one example. Borrow from Vegetarian Substitution..and Diet Substation products. (IF they are designated Kosher)

Plus keeping Kosher is part of a life style that keeps more of the Jewish values closer at hand in your life. Its a cultural thang..as well.

Avi.

I agree with you...the Chasidic Jews I know do wait the full six hours, though my Reform friends don't always wait that long.

cheshirecat
(at least fish doesn't qualify as meat...how else can you enjoy a lox and cream cheese bagel? Yum!)

Chesirecat,

Certainly there are those who wait less than six hours, but you'll be hard-pressed to find one of them who can justify it. Ask one of them sometime why they wait only three hours, and they won't have a good answer for you.

That is, if they even know where it's from in the first place.