Hannity&colmes 9:00 pm est
To hell with this!!

The children quickly smiled and shouted "Bush!" while punching the sky.

No wonder the LLL have no intention of ever helping the "oppressed" Iraqi civilians - they're Bush supporters.

The Iraqis know who their foes are too. Two Iraqi children once spontaneously shouted to me, "France, Chirac!" while giving the thumbs-down sign and shaking their heads disapprovingly. The children quickly smiled and shouted "Bush!" while punching the sky.

Cute. Not all Muslims are evil.

#3 Do remember, Iraq is probably the most "secular" of the Arab states. Probably has a good deal to do with the makeup of the people. The majority groups are two different sects of Islam (they don't like each other) with the Kurds having several different religions, some are Islamic, but a good deal are a mix of different regional Christian and local religions.

Another think to remember, the people haven't spent their lives being indoctrinated to hate everyone else so much as they were taught to fear Saddam.

Something tells me that I am not going to see this anytime soon on CNN. I am glad that at least the Iraqis are appreciative of the US/UK effort, because there are many in their countries that aren't.

Iraqis come in lots of different flavors.

RACE:

The Kurds (15%-20% of Iraq), who seem to be pretty pro-US but will probably become something less than appetizing (ala Basque sepratists).

The Arabs (75%-80% of Iraq), who have varying attitudes, based on religion mostly.

RELIGION:

The Shi'a (60%-65 of Iraq), who hated Saddam, but for the most part want a non-secular islamic state. They are happy that Saddam is gone, but many dislike the US and the Coalition's push to democratize with a secular govenment.

The Sunni (32%-37% of Iraq), Saddam and most of his Baathist buddies were Sunni and repressed the Shi-a (to put it mildly).

There are many other ways to divide up Iraq. City vs country folk. Baathist vs non-Baathist. Educated vs non-educated. Religious vs non-religious. My point is that while many are happy Saddam is gone, and maybe most are happy that the US is there to keep the Baathists away, many are agaist the US plans for a secualr democratic government. It is like Lincoln said, "you can please some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time." The people who are not pleased are making trouble. It only takes a very few to cause trouble when guerrilla warfare or terror is the plan. And few of the people who are at least partially pleased, are willing to help rid themselves of their enemies. And shrink from their best interest either through fear, or apathy, or whatever. I really wish the US and Coalition had some message or ultimatum to communicate to the Iraqis. To tell them what the situation is and who the real enemy is. Unfortunately they get most of their oppinions from the mosques and those are very anti-US.

My personal opinion is that the Iraqis need to vote on something, anything, very soon. I think that should be a proposal for the Coalition to either stay or withdraw. I think that would drive the point home, but I doubt we have the ability to hold a fair election this soon. These people are either friend of foe. They need to make up their minds.

I don't care if our media doesn't report this, I mean people liking America isn't news and hasn't been news for a long time. It's just nice to see that it is still true.

"Two Iraqi children once spontaneously shouted to me, "France, Chirac!" while giving the thumbs-down sign and shaking their heads disapprovingly. "

I think the practice of using the word "Chiraq" should be discouraged. It is an unfair insult. An insult of the people of Iraq, that is.

#4 Rev Jay:

"Do remember, Iraq is probably the most "secular" of the Arab states."

I wouldn't view it in terms of that. Iran is no secular state, and the people there are pro-American. Any government hated by their oppressors must have something going for it.

...and yet, in a poll on Lou Dobbs on CNN tonight when asked the question: Do you think the US is in a quagmire in Iraq? 95% yes, 5% no. Go figure!

Thanks, Charles, for some positive news on a day filled with so much sorrow.

The ultimate success of all this is with the Iraqi kids.

The islamists want us out, but the Iraqis who want a better future want us to stay, and they are the majority, they are scared of the islamists tho.
But I suppose after Saddam, the islamists arent THAT scary.
(especially when you have 150,000 American soldiers to back you up)

The Iraqi's want a better life, and when Saddams time was up, France and alot of the world opposed him being taken out of power...they may not LOVE America, but they know when it came down to it, America got rid of Saddam and is staying to help them have a better life in the future, and the rest of the world, almost, opposed us, and wanted Saddam to stay in power.
I think thats pretty much the bottom line with the Iraqi people.

#6 The Humiliator

I think that should be a proposal for the Coalition to either stay or withdraw. I think that would drive the point home, but I doubt we have the ability to hold a fair election this soon

That is a stellar idea! You should send it to the whitehouse right away.

If they vote us out, then we can wash our hands.

But I think it would turn out the other way ;-)

OT- Has anyone heard of a movie called AMEN?It documents the Catholic church's involvement and appeasement of the Nazi movement. Anyone else seen or heard of this movie? If so I am interested about the comments. It seems to be German-made>

two different sects of Islam (they don't like each other)

From Salam Pax's blog:

Raed’s mother is Shia muslim and they used to live in Saudi (which is Sunni central). One day she was asked by someone who got the courage to come up to her, they asked whether it was true that Shia muslims have little tails and they are allowed to marry their sisters.

TS (#11),

The ultimate success of all this is with the Iraqi kids.

Then this should make you feel better.

A group of Iraqi children pose for a photo while their parents receive food and water in the town of Ar Rutba

More news you won't see on the BBC:

Troops visit Iraqi orphanages

One after another, the troops unloaded boxes of clothes, toys and toiletries -- a combination of items gathered from packages they have received.

#12 Blowback

I think the outcome of such a vote could go any direction. If we pulled out of Iraq, the Baathists could return. Maybe they would not be called Baathists but it would be there same. The people of Iraq know this. Poll-wise the people of Iraq would oppose this, and at the same time probably not be able to resist it. They fear it.

If we left, we would have to make it under the conditions that if they screw up and we have to, we would be back with another invasion.

Ther real problem with Iraq is that it is a country that consists of factions that hate each other. The US is forbidden by it's own policy and the UN's policy to partition Iraq. The whole region consists of nations that were drawn up by the Brits and ignored the ethnic realities. Perhaps it was for the best because as pure ethnic nations they probably would have been at war long ago. The internal struggles have mostly kept the inter-state rivalry to a minimum.

The real problem with voting in Iraq, is that the majority Shi'a might vote in an islamic government similar to Irans.

Before any vote could take place in Iraq, the people of Iraq have to be stablized. Still they need to vote on something to see how it works. They aren't dummies, they understand voting, but experiencing it can make all the difference.

Iraq is a pretty screwed up nation in a screwed up region. There really are no good solutions.

All these new polls seem less than relevant. If they had polled whether people felt that Iraq was in chaos (like the stupid one on AOL) two days prior to the UN bombing I'm sure the answers would have been a lot different. Emotions are running high today for good reason but overall, Iraq is moving along faster than should be expected. It's only been a matter of months.

People are so "instant" oriented nowadays its pathetic. For heaven's sake, it takes two years to have a baby elephant! As is being said, we are in another phase of the war on terror in Iraq. Just part of the growing pains of a new nation.

Then again, a true pessimist would be shaking his head and saying, it's never gonna happen.

No good solutions...

Why can't more people realize that?

There was no good solution or bad solution, there was bad and worse...

Take Care,

The last paragraph of Chief Wiggle's latest report, from Baghdad -- his thoughts of the day's happening....

(if you don't know Cheif Wiggles, he's vital in the interrogations of those "captured" in country.

"This is the right thing to be doing; righteousness will prevail over the evil intentions of misguided hate filled people. Keep the faith. Do your part in assisting us to be able to continue until we are finished with our plans. We need your help. Tell everyone you know that we will not give in to their negative reporting and we will not give up until we are done.

Go read -- study his archives..........
[Link: chiefwiggles.blog-city.com...]

The WSJ. A lance coprol? In for 9 years...(ignore spelling)

#15 Geepers

From the second link:

...others raced toward the doorway with their hands raised above their heads, beckoning to be picked up and held by the American troops.

That is heartbreaking.

I'm half watching CNN now. They're spinning the bombing of the UN building in Bagdad as a major defeat for the US.

I hate CNN sooooooooo much.

Anyway, I've been advocating bombing the UN for months!! (kidding... hee hee. ahem, sorry)

Tasty Beverage (#15),

Yes it is. One of the reasons I have NO patience for lefty do-gooders whom can do little more than complain about how evil the US is. There is so much good they could be working for such as volunteering in orphanages, and what do they actually do: become human shields in an attempt to keep a brutal dictator in power.

You know cuz war is bad.

#22 Doctor Bean

I've been advocating bombing the UN for months!!

They got the wrong building.

#23 Geepers

That's exactly it. Those human shield "people" who actually have the financial means or backing to travel halfway around the world to a fucked up country like Iraq are in a position to do great works. But instead they "protected" Saddam's infrastructure. Why aren't they "protecting" that same infrastructure now that it is Americans'/Iraqis' ?

I think we know.

Those assholes could be there now helping those children. But you know, that would be lending tacit support to the invaders/occupiers/Zionist colonizers of Iraq, so, sorry kids, no crayons for you....... It's for the greater good.

My God, those children just want to be held and loved. That's so sad. And I really don't like children. (sorry I just don't) But still my heart breaks for them.

Tasty Beverage (#25),

I think basically for the do-gooders its all about them. They don't give a rat's ass about these kids, any more than they cared about Saddam. They just wanted to let all their friends know how passionate they are about the "cause."

Oh yeah, and try to convince themselves that they aren't completely worthless self-centered meddlers who's attraction to "the cause" goes up in direct relation to its timeliness.

Why do I doubt that those 100's of thousands of anti-war protesters marching about have been working together daily for the last 10 years?

Ya ever think Bush just got so sick of listening to their incessant whining during the debate and build up to Dessert Storm that the next one will just be announced one morning?

#20 JC:

I didn't see where he claimed to have been in the USMC and/or USMCR for 9 years. He did mention being "in Europe" a decade ago - possibly in his capacity as a journalist?

OTOH, if he does actually have 9 years in, maybe it's broken service (in for a period, out for several years, then came back to duty @ a lower rank because he'd been out so long).

#26 Geepers

I don't believe Bush would try a stunt like announcing a military "action" the "day of" (I know you were kidding) but I wish he would. Syria, Iran, Saudi and (yes) Pakistan need to be taken out.

As for the "peace" (God I hate that word) protesters, I think you meant "Why don't I doubt"

I'm all for the start of the next Civil War. Bring it on Blame America First Self Hating Pansies. I am so bored and ready.

Goodnight LGFers. This was a terrible day and I for one am ready to go to bed, and think about the people taken from the world today.

Insomnia's a bitch.

Tasty Beverage (#28),

You might be more right about the children of Iraqi than we thought:

Iraq currently has the highest overall illiteracy in the Arab world at 61% for the population and 77% for women. (UNESCO Arab States Regional Report, May 2003)

The pinnacle of Islamic achievement: mass illiteracy.
As soon a Saddam finished building those last 18 palaces he was going to start building schools, we just didn't give him enough time.

#3 Deathberg

Who said Iraqi's wanted to be muslim? The Mullahs and every other country surrounding Iraq maybe. But not all Iraqi are muslim or even want to be.

/Start mindless preaching
Worshipping religions are the bane to human existence. They are counter productive to advancing ahead in understanding true human existance and mastery of our own fate. Note that I said worshipping religions and not all religions. Many religions have allot of the attributes needed for advancment just not at once. You might have to pick and choose pieces from each to get it close to right. Am I atheist? Yes and No. The superior force is not conscious as we would beleive we are.

Islam is not one of those religions.

There is war now. It's bigger than most want to acknowledge. It might seem like it's religion but it's really just common sense. Humans a special ability. It's a gift if used wisely and a weapon of utter destruction if not understood fully. Logical Thinking! Where does logic conclude current world events are heading?
/End Mindless preaching and irrelavent raving.

Egfrow

The islamists want us out, but the Iraqis who want a better future want us to stay, and they are the majority, they are scared of the islamists tho.

If only that were true... but car bombs, RPGs, mines, AK-47s speak louder than a few cheering children in geographic location.

If the Iraqi majority truly preferred their liberators to the murdering jihadis the terrs would have a hellish time just surviving... but they don't. Not in most of the country, especially not outside Kurdistan. The jihadis and baathists can hide among the people and strike with little fear that anyone would inform the evil americans.

That speaks volumes.

As for the children... I only hope the men will be careful with them. It's an age-old tactic among muslims and commies to have children befriend the troops... and then, one day, the same child who was yesterday cheering for Bush ... comes and throws a grenade into your tent or helicopter or APC. Happened many times in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Vietnam.

I just hope men won't have to die repeating old mistakes. You just DON'T fraternize with a hostile population if you want to live long, even with those who don't SEEM hostile... Even if nine out of ten friendly women and children are as friendly as they seem, it only takes that one to kill you ... or someone around you...

#29   Geepers

Iraq actually had pretty good literacy levels prior to the Iran-Iraq war. Their literacy level in 1985 was 87%, with a slightly higher level of literacy for women.

Iraq had a pretty good education and health system in those days, before the war consumed all funding and manpower.

Their literacy level in 1985 was 87%, with a slightly higher level of literacy for women.

Links?

#14 Yehudit,

Raed’s mother is Shia muslim and they used to live in Saudi (which is Sunni central). One day she was asked by someone who got the courage to come up to her, they asked whether it was true that Shia muslims have little tails

My Shia girlfriend and I had to break it off because we knew that with her Shia tail, and my Jewish horns, that our children were likely to come out looking like Satan. (we didn't feel like Satan.)

Vietnam was not lost militarily. The US military never lost a major battle during the entire time we were there. It was lost when journalist declared the war unwinnable, and got enough Americans to believe it.

Which makes reports like CNN all the more important. If they can convince enough people that we should leave NOW, and let the country degenerate back to another Saddamocracy, well, that ain't going to be good.

The UN took a big hit. They can stay or leave, as they please. But we can't, we have a war to win. We can't play into the terrorists hands.

I read an editorial/article on CNN website: Baghdad on the Hudson.

I know the author starts from two different subjects: the situation in Baghdad and the recent major black-out in US... and a lot of you will probably find that ridiculous..

Anyway, besides this little writing game, he emphases the need to win the battle of opinion in Irak, which is also the opinion of Mr. Bearpark, the chief of operations for the Coalition Provisional Authority, top aide of Mr. Bremer (same article).

I would say there are two wars to win: a more immediate war against terrorism and old regime remnants, to eradicate violence in Irak, and a longer war on the Iraki opinion...

U.S had very good preparation for the war in Irak, and maybe just a little less good for the after-war... but I don't blame, to the contrary.

Anyone with a minimum IQ can understand that bringing real and durable changes to a country in such a bad shape is not easy, requires a mix of military actions and political and human lucidity and will take some time.

Do US want to fully do it, till the end ? Do US want to do it alone or with the UN or other countries ?...

#31 Jan:

...can hide among the people and strike with little fear that anyone would inform the evil americans.

You need to go up to Afan's post in 19 and follow the link to Chief Wiggles' blog. Things are changing on the ground in Iraq, favorably, and much sooner than an old cynic like me would have expected.

OL (#36),

Anyone with a minimum IQ can understand that bringing real and durable changes to a country in such a bad shape is not easy, requires a mix of military actions and political and human lucidity and will take some time.

I say we ask for as much time to rebuild as Saddam had. That was what about thirty years. If after thirty years Iraq isn't better off than they were three months ago, then we can be considered failures. (I'm giving us a bit of leeway here since we all know Iraq isn't better off today than it was three months ago.)