Am I the only one who finds it a wee bit odd that Abe was at the scene of this horrific crime so soon after it happened? If it wasn't for the fact that he works for a "peace" organisation, I might think...

Nah. It's not like the ISM has any connection to terrorists.

Oh, wait a sec...

useful idiot. Corritize him. extra flat.

hi. I'm a troll

Actually, excuse me for being new to this -- but what's a troll?

What is an "Israeli Tomcat"? Some sort of Jewish Tiger?

And I don't suggest Corritization for him. Something slower.

"Seeing the devastation first hand makes you wonder the loss of the lives that occurred. Just the expressions on the kids faces told me how many of their parents were killed in front of their eyes."

Interesting. Why does seeing that devastation of a year ago have more impact than a freshly destroyed bus full of innocent men, women and children? I guess it's because Israeli's aren't really humans, like the Palestinians.

Wow...

then mail him to Colin Powell.

#3

Actually, excuse me for being new to this -- but what's a troll?

If you have to ask don't mess with it.

jj

well this is my first opportunity to inform someone on the LGF vocabulary
#3 GAZE

Jackie D

I'm thinking the same thing. Interesting, isn't it?

BTW, since when does Israel fly F-14's?

Just the other day I was in a city in the West Bank and was given a tour of a bomb site from a year ago when Israeli Tomcats tore through two or three city blocks that had been flattened.

consider my stomach turned and my head exploded...

JUUDENRAAT!!!

Mr. Greenhouse is going to have to do more then suggest that something horrible happened to some kids parents. Give me facts. Or go fluff Arafats pillow or something.

You're right, Charles, he is a self centered bastard. I wonder if he'll try to capitalize off of this and get 3SH for life experience. Sorry POS, the Israelis should try him as an accessory to the fact or whatever that flies under over there.

I think the only danger he's in is if one of his handlers mistakes him for a sheep in the dark. He's American, let him join the Army and become an MP in downtown Baghdad? Then he can really learn how much his Arab brothers love him.

Israeli Tomcats tore through two or three city blocks that had been flattened.

The only country in the region that flies F-14 "Tomcats" is Iran, and their planes are so old that it is unlikely that many are in flying condition.

What type of newspaper misses an obvious lie/mistake and/or prints it without comment.

#12 Papertiger: Facts? Who needs facts when you can read anything you wish into kids' eyes?

#3 Hi

Just for you, an entire FAQ on what you are and what we can expect from you.

Trolls

You might also do a google search using the following:
"Definition of a usenet troll"

Why is the little bastard still in Israel?

He must be a life member of Self-Loathing Jews for Genocide. Seriously, he should just end the pain and put a gun in his mouth. Preferable a SW .357 of the 686 series.

The Israelis should just deport him and all the ISM people because they are sympathetic to the terrorists and even give aid and comfort to them.Of course,he can't spare a word of sympathy for the babies and the children who were murdered. He supports the people who did it.

The Israelis should just deport him and all the ISM people because they are sympathetic to the terrorists and even give aid and comfort to them.Of course,he can't spare a word of sympathy for the babies and the children who were killed. He supports the people who murdered them.

I can't read Kids eyes like this fellow. I need facts and they better be veifiable and not for the daily PalesinianTimes either.

Honestly, why are these people not deported? I realize that the goddamn ISM website has suggested ways to sneak into Israel, or how to bluff your way thru customs, but once they're there...why the fuck are they allowed to remain? They are not impartial, by any stretch of the imagination. They are not peace activists, they are offering moral support (and maybe a nice cup of tea, bleh) to the vermin who blow up crowds of innocent people. If I were in attendence at the press area this amoral fuck was at when he offered his insights in this interview, they'd have had to pry me off him with a crowbar.

An adam shiparo wannbe.

#12 papertiger

I'm sure "honest" Abe fluffs for Arafat, but it is certainly not a pillow.

#14 piglet

I believe the last time Tehran got spares for their Tomcats was when Reagan was in the White House. Something about "arms for hostages" IIRC.

;^)

Charles,

We need LGF barf bags.

#21 Skirmish

they'd have had to pry me off him with a crowbar.

Would that be the one you would be using to re-educate him? :)

What type of newspaper misses an obvious lie/mistake and/or prints it without comment.

The NY Times?

___

Abe Froman Greenhouse? The sausage king of N.J.?

He bores me. At least Shapiro is bright - evil, misguided, and a sociopathic as he is.

anyone else having trouble getting on DEBKA?

These asswipes do it for the adrenaline rush... another form of extreme sports except this makes them feel oh so special and better than everyone else. The LLL crowd have major ego problems.

Why is this particular sample from the sty of islamonazis' catamites getting into the media and has his vile spew published? If he was in the US and sporting lots of white sheets, saying similar things about a certain minority, would he get reported the same way? If not, why not?

The reason this garbage happens, IMHO, is that nothing worse than letters of protest will result as a "bad" consequence to those publishing such utter excrement.

The techniques for effectively preventing these types of publishing "activities" are left as an exercise to those for whom it may be important.

#28 Teacake

The LLL crowd have major ego problems.

You noticed. Most of them have great difficulty accepting that they are just workaday Joe Shmoes who are terribly insignificant in the big scheme of things. Just like the rest of us "sheeple". Being pampered and spoiled as children has some unfortunate side effects.

Luckily, The Trentonian has a space for comments. Shame, Mr. Greenhouse. Shame.

He keeps on talking about how "important" his work is. So sad and so telling that young "liberals" would rather see themselves as "important" by jumping on bandwagons of hate rather than truly helping people. I always go back to Africa, but if these "children" really wanted to help, there's some clear cut work to do in Africa, where real genocide is occuring, in a multitude of ways. But no, better to run to the media, as Greenhouse tellingly did.

Was there ever an organization along the lines of 'Jews for Hitler' in the 1930's?
Can you picture rabbis holding swastikas?

This gent and his ilk bring that image to mind and would be worthy successors to such a putrid betrayal.

And no, Israel has never flown the Tomcat, the F-14.
The aircraft used to kill a known terrorist in that strike was the F-16 Fighting Falcon, which doesn't look a thing like the F-14.

Spiny Norman, I've often wondered if their behavior problems are a result of that new parenting fad where parents never said no or disiplined them when they crossed the line. And, my other theory has to do with sesame street... they were brought up relating to characters rather than people.

#33 josh

Kinda what I figured. Will it hurt the lying bastard's credibility? When pigs fly.

You can't kill Abe Greenhouse! The ISM is merely part of the political wing of hamas!

No need to kill / detain ISM members. Just do an expose on what they really are and deport them.

#33   josh  - Was there ever an organization along the lines of 'Jews for Hitler' in the 1930's? Can you picture rabbis holding swastika

Exactly.

"I’m in the depth of a peace offering and it’s frustrating when you see all these things happening in front of my eyes," he said.

I'd like to see an IDF boot right in front of his eyes.

What a fucking jerk.

I mean, whenever I see people wounded and injured and killed my first instinct is, "How can help?" I mean, "How can I lie to people who have better things to do than deal with idiots like me so I can sneak my way into the media area?"

Fucking jerk.

#34 Teacake

LOL

I'm covered. I can pass for Oscar. Haircut, eyebrows, and all.

He was detained for 22 hours and eventually released

Eventually released? Wouldn't that be released after 22 hours of detention? Sorta, kinda, like CNN this morning reporting that the IDF had killed the whatshisface Hamas bigwig outright.

Outright, as opposed to what exactly? Is that like being a little bit pregnant?

But now has a different perspective on what’s really going on in Israel

Yea right.
You stir up shit, you get treated like a shit disturber. What's perspective got to do with it.

Posted at the Trentonian:

"r.e., "Abe Greenhouse will never forget the bloodshed".

[Link: www.trentonian.com...]

"He said it was lucky he was at the scene early enough to sneak into the press tent and witness what the history and political science major explained has been a daily occurrence for him."

"I’m in the depth of a peace offering and it’s frustrating when you see all these things happening in front of my eyes,"

Abe Greenhouse will never forget the bloodshed? There were five Americans killed that day that did not live to remember it, but Abe had no human words of sympathy for them.

One of those murdered was Shmuel Tabenfeld, 5 months, of New York . This American child was killed along with his mother Goldie Tabenfeld in a suicide bombing of a bus returning from the Western Wall in Jerusalem on Tuesday August 19, 2003

"Lucky"? "Frustrating"? Sorry that the dying Jews of Israel can't be more entertaining for you and your friends in the International Solidarity Movement (ISM).

On July 3rd, ISM launched coordinated activities in Ramallah with an umbrella group of organizations including Fateh and Hamas.

ISM is activlely recruting young people to serve as its next wave of “human shields”. More likely, they will serve as facilitators of terror, and shields behind which future murders are planned and coordinated.

According to a report issued in June by North Carolina Rep. Sue Myrick, since Yasser Arafat "renounced" violence in the Oslo Peace Accords on September 13, 1993, at least 42 American citizens, including women and children, had been murdered by Palestinian terrorists (now 47); at least another 79 Americans have been injured.

Another of these Americans was a 14 year old girl, who was murdered along with 16 Israelis (mostly teenagers), during a bus ride to Haifa University on March 5, 2003. Her name was Avigail Leitel, a Christian peace advocate. The bomber was a Hamas member; a letter found on his body praised the 9/11 attacks.

Where is the sympathy for your fellow citizens, their children and infants? Where is the outrage for their murders?"

CC Phil... I don't actually get your joke but I'm sure its funny! I grew up with Captain Kangaroo. LOLOLOL

Teacake,

Absolutely. That level of self-indulgence must have been learned very early. Remember the '70's mantra, The Me Generation? Well, these are their progeny.

The LLL: The New Nihilism.

Israeli Tomcats tore through two or three city blocks that had been flattened.

Heck, they flew off the Israeli Battle Group aircraft carrier, the nuclear-powered ISS Moshe Dayan.

Whoops, my quote from #34 went bye-bye. Let's try again:

I've often wondered if their behavior problems are a result of that new parenting fad where parents never said no or disiplined them when they crossed the line.

(I don't think Sesame Street is particularly harmful. Heck, I watched it when I was a kid.)

#44 Tomcat,

the nuclear-powered ISS Moshe Dayan.

You realize, of course, if we perpetuate this rumor the Islamobots are sure to believe it.

;^)

"Israel has a right to defend herself but Israel needs to take into account the effect that actions they take have on the peace process," White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters.

What the hell are they smokin' in the White House???Are the folks in the White House that stupid or do they have another agenda?

"Israeli Committee Against House Demolition"

Will Abe and his fellow quislings now set up a Committee Against Bus Demolition?

He was also given a platform to stand on in the latest issue of The Jewish Week.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3 ?artid=8360

OT: This just off Google: the mayor of New York City is going to Jerusalem next week to support the bombing victims. The link is here:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

#42 Teacake

I am also of the Capt Kangaroo generation (kinda)and still know all the words to the "Tom Terrific" song. Oscar was the only one of the Sesame street characters I could ever identify with. Not so much the touch-feely stuff, but living in a garbage can. The Army sent me to some real armpits of the world and Sergeants Major aren't exactly noted for sweet, gentle dispositions.

I won't say we used to wait for guys like Abe Greenhouse to come along, but when you're REALLY dedicated to makig a difference in the world you work with what you get.

Spiny #46

I don't know what the Islamobots believe (besides virgins in heaven) but I do know the only thing they understand is brute force and strength.

it wasn't too hard to find this turd's phone number [deleted]

OT - Israeli army to demolish Rachel Corrie Peace Center

Israeli and Palestinian activists are massing to spend the night in the building, or arranging to be at the site at 4:30 tomorrow morning in an attempt to stall or prevent the demolition. Some activists will carry out civil disobedience.

Deja vu.

Sesame Street was great, and so was the Israeli spin-off, Rehov Sumsum (sp?). It starred Oscar the Grouch's cousin, Moshe the Oofnik and the usual neighborhood gang, including a big porcupine ala Big Bird. Great stuff.

the wanker can't make it any other way. Perhaps he can persuade Sheik Yassin to suck his islamofascist dick

Hmm...I think they should be thrown into prison in Isreal, treated like terrorists, and generally ignored. When that happens, they'll feel vinidcated...or terrified that thier mouths have gotten them into a position the can't get out of.

Norman... like I said... a theory. lolol

CC - That is sad even for a puppet. But I think I catch your drift.

Israeli army to demolish Rachel Corrie Peace Center

The Rachel Corrie Peace Center in East Jerusalem is faced with the same fate that befell its namesake — to be crushed under the wheels of a bulldozer. You can help.

I would love to help, can I drive the bulldozer?

#43   wrote:

"Absolutely. That level of self-indulgence must have been learned very early. Remember the '70's mantra, The Me Generation? Well, these are their progeny."

***

I met, and challenged, a group of ISMs in Seattle last month.

Yes. Self-indulgence, and selfirightousness, is right. But these aren't the 70s-generation. This is the 00s.

To these ISM as*holes, dodging dozers in Gaza is just the latest xtreeme sport. For most of them, I think it goes no deaper than this:

Center of world's attention.
Good hashish connections.
Dramatic causes.
Exotic costumes.
Self-rightous attitude
Play at rejection of American culture.
Mindless infantilism.
Decadence.

Summer camp in Dachau, but you get to leave.

If the ISMs ever actually opened their eyes, learned some history, or had real human compassion...it would spoil their fun. Don't annoy them with the truth.

They may be the cultural models for much of the upcoming urban youth culture. If so, they represent the death of this civilization.

I tried to look at the expressions on the faces of so many children who were on the bus at the wrong time. I didn't see anything, because they're all dead.

#60 SM - they were born in the 70s and raised with the attitudes of those times. I was often horrified by their lack of parenting skills. And this same generation took a lot of esctasy 10 years ago, which I'm sure hasn't helped... having had parents who used a lot of lsd. I'd like to see a study on that actually.

remember, Israel doesn't deport these ISM scumbags because there are lots of Israeli liberals who AGREE with the ISM scumbags like Naomi Chazan, Amos Oz, Uri Aveneri, Yael Dayan, Yossi Beilin, Gush Shalom, Shalom Achshav(Peace Now). Israel is a very complicated country.

Pardon this little know-nothing Canadian shiksa's ignorance but why do I seem to find more anti-Semitism and hatred for Israel amongst Jews such as Adam Shapiro and Abe Greenputz 'er Greenhouse here than I do anywhere else in the world, including Saudi Arabia, and most of it is more corrosive and destructive than garden variety Arab anti-Semitism? Forget about Anglos like me--it hasn't been p.c. for an Anglo to be anti-Semitic for years!

I'm just curious! Really! Guys like Greenface and Shapiro cause so MUCH more damage BECAUSE they are Jews and others look at them an laugh and say "...oh look there MUST be something wrong with the Jews if even the Jews say there is."

It's hard to fight anti-Semitism and hatred from a Jew. Much harder than from an Arab. It's more demoralizing.

Also, it has to be noted that Peace Now was founded in the late 1970s not in America, but in Israel by retired army officers dislliousned after the Yom Kippur War. Their positive image of Israel was shattered and while they offer no viable solutions, they felt the Zionist goal was useless and Israel was better off making concessions to the Islamic Nazi Savages because they(retired army officers) just didn't have the will to fight anymore. Israel has been fighting these Islamic Nazi Savages since 1947, so fatigue is a major factor here.

SO, $1.1 TRILLION IS MISSING FROM THE PENTAGON EACH YEAR. WHAT'S IT GOING FOR?

Where's the fucking money?

If you read about modern Jewish history you realize why so many Jews were drawn to socialist and communist movements and the ADam Shapiros are simply descendants of those neo-communists.

Elizabeth, its not at all like the white hot hate from anti semites. When Jews turn on Jews its more about shame, fear, hurt and who knows what else. What ever it is, its not at all the same but it is just as ugly.

#66

So troll, that's more than the Pentagon's total budget. Go peddle you s**t elsewhere

VES

I think theres an article about it at AISH. Aparently the first wave of Jewish immigrants came from Germany, founded the reform movement out of a great need to assimilate. It pretty much turned out to be a disaster.

sorry about all my typos

64 Elizabeth:

I agree with Teacake. These guys are misguided, ashamed and seek acceptance amongst what they perceive to be the "cool crowd."

It's tough to be a far-left liberal in college and not fall in with this crowd. To prove their worth, they attack Israel.

You're right about the fact that they cause a lot of damage - but that's because they're acting on their impulses and not merely sitting in some cafe in a Cairo alley frothing about how the Jews stole the Pharoanic gold and kitchen utensils.

#67 Alex

I've read some and I'm still bewildered why so many Jews embraced communism. Hope may spring eternal, but I think I would have become more cynical.

I would have to imagine that back then gold wasn't actually all that valuable by todays standards. The egyptians used in on everything. Seemed to be plentiful and it is very easy to work with and make things with due to how low a temp it melts at and how maluable it is.

Today we use salt on everything... way back when, salt was as valuable as gold is today.

# 50 From your link i found this Mayor Bloomberg quote: "You can't let somebody start to bomb you or shoot you and then give up everything that they want in return for them to stop. They stop terrorism, then you talk. They don't stop, you hit back and you hit back with everything you have and as hard as you can repeatedly. And if you don't do that, shame on you."

One hammas leader isn't enough. Israel needs to off these fools in a regular fashion until Abbas or Arafat come begging at Sharon's feet. Then perhaps a peace.

# 55 D they had an Israeli Sesame Street with -
It starred Oscar the Grouch's cousin, Moshe the Oofnik and the usual neighborhood gang, including a big porcupine ala Big Bird. Great stuff. your kidding. no?

OT: For those who forgot about the Dixie Chix

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

bleh

Elizibeth,
Jews hate Jews for the same reason non-Jews hate Jews. They are just ignorant hateful idiots. Abe Greenwoods non-Jewish ISM buddies also hate their own people (Americans) aswel. In the holocaust there was a name for Jews like him, Judenrat. Theyre scared litle babies who think their side is loosing so they jump ship.

Same shit, different day.

Palestinian Diplomacy - Cox & Forkum

T. Jefferson (#79)

Cox & Forkum rarely use colour. I don't think I've ever seen them use colour now that I think about it. That cartoon is haunting.

Jewels

I had forgotten about the Dixie Chix. Until you reminded me. gggrrr thanks alot

Thanks to Teacake, SoCalJustice and DeadEd for the cluex4s. It's hard to figure some people out and then again...I've run into people in my sphere who hate you if you have the brains to come in out of the cold or the rain. They can't do anything themselves and they resent accomplishment in others. Small-minded people who would love to see others fail. Ugh! Spare me from them.

#73 CC Phil:

the reason Jews in Russia embraced Communism was because the Russian Communists promised them emancipation from the Czarist racist oppression. It was partially fulfilled by the Bolshevik government where it had enough influence to do so, probably in Leningrad and Moscow, provincially(Ukraine, White Russia) Jews continued to suffer under the racist Russian populace, thus driving more Jews towards Communism as emancipation from racist Russian oppression. By now it's just hereditary.

sorry to go OT

Someone on the radio mentioned that the blackout and the current virus are connected to Inslaw and the promis software. The yahoo search produced about 100 articles, if any of the following items perk an interest. I have no idea if this is real or kookology.
HERE

---

Al Qaeda is "the Base"
... In the 1920s, a non-military code-breaking group operated out of "the Black ... The Inslaw/PROMIS case is complex; an excellent overview of its complexities is ...
INSLAW Octopus ... was, in fact, a legitimate use of the code.". ... scathing opinion that Justice had stolen PROMIS through "trickery ... fraud and deceit." He awarded Inslaw $6.8 million ... Osama Bin Laden Obtains Intelligence Software -- US intelligence initiative to sell Inslaw's PROMISE software ...

OT: Charles you must link to this (from Tal.G's blog)

Heres a chilling interview with the Hamas "political" leader who was just assassinated. Read the entire thing, and remind yourself that Kofi Annan objected against the killing of this guy and his bodyguards.

Interview with Ismail Abu Shanab

First of all, I thank you brother and I pray for you and for all of us to do our duties towards God, our land, religion and ourselves. Martyrdom is the path of victory and the path of honor in this life and in the hereafter. All Muslims should wait and hope that they end their life by being shuhada' (martyrs).

...
...

First of all, the verse in the Qura'n concerning this question is:

"Whoever transgresses against you, transgress against him in the same manner he transgressed against you."(Al-Baqarah: 194)

We understand that as far as the Israelis are killing civilians and are carrying out a war against Palestinians we are in the status of a war, and therefore we are allowed by the Qur'an to react to their atrocities in the same manner.

This rule is also written in the Bible, which states "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."

Secondly: martyrdom is a high rank sacrifice. People sacrifice their lives for the sake of self-defense when the enemies attack their country. In the Qur'an, there is a verse that says: " Allah has purchased of the believers their persons and their property; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and kill and are killed." (At-Tawbah: 111)

Cox & Forkum cartoon:

"Palestinian Diplomacy"

VERY POWERFUL!

#75 papertiger

Glad you liked the quote. I'm pleased that he's making the trip, I just wish others we could mention would show the same kind of support for Israel.

# 85 Jono

guess Abu got his wish -

Martyrdom is the path of victory and the path of honor in this life and in the hereafter. All Muslims should wait and hope that they end their life by being shuhada' (martyrs).

I'm sure when he asked for volunteers to strap on the bombs there had to be at least one smart allek who said, " You First."

#80 zulubaby

It is haunting, isn't it. And one of the most powerful that I can remember ever seeing. It ranks in my top ten and it's the color that makes the difference.

#83 Alex

Yes, I understand that, which is why I said what I said about hope and cynicism. What I don't understand is why Jews expected anything better from the very people that had oppressed them for so long regardless of what they called themselves. But then I read a book about the purges that detailed people willingly sacrificing their lives for the party and I don't understand that either.

Zulubaby:

Yes it is haunting. I believe the colors represent the Palestinian flag.

[Link: www.passia.org...]

#89 CC Phil

I don't know about people "willingly" sacrificing themselves to Stalin's purges. I dont' think anyone went willingly to Yezhov's or Beria's execution chamber. However, as a people, the Jews were treated more fairly under the Communist regime then they ever were under the Czars, at least they were executed on an equal-opportunity basis with Russians...

#90 Indeed

Red for the blood of terror victims.
Green for the petro-dollars that fuel the terror.
White for the maggots who direct the terror.
Black for the heart and soul of the intifada.

T. Jefferson (#90)

I believe the colors represent the Palestinian flag.

Yes, definitely.

Abe Greenberg appears to be an obnoxious little shit who really needs to grow up and get a clue.

More of his juvenile obnoxiousness and immature radicalism:

Later, once we’d been taken to the Ariel police station, one of my friends from Jews Against the Occupation in NYC opined about my encounter w/ the soldier. “The beating seemed to be partly in response to Abe being a wiseass”, he said, “it went: jokes, punches, jokes, punches”. “It was almost exactly like high school”, I chimed in.

Anyway, eventually I noticed that the people in back had stopped filming, and that the cameras were no longer visible – so I backed down, intent on finding new ways to be a pain in the ass. I essentially alternated between engaging the soldiers in deep, meaningful political debate, and singing self-penned anti-Zionist song parodies at the top of my lungs. As the bus carried us away, one soldier tried to convince me that we were being taken to Beer Sheeva, in Southern Israel – although the experience of virtually every ISMer arrested in the West Bank had been to be taken to the police station in Ariel, one of the largest settlements in the territories. Sure enough, the soldier was lying, and we arrived at Ariel about twenty minutes later.

Whoa, dewd, yer a hardcore revolutionary, man!

#84 teacake

It's kookology

try this:
[Link: www.google.com...]

As commander of the 12th Battle Group of the Israeli Eastern Grand Fleet, our I pronounce 19,000 F-14 Tomcats, 47,000 Super Hornets, and 43 divisions of Imperial Space Marines ready to invade Iran from our island base in the Caspian Sea.

You can quote me. (If the enemy wishes to believe nonsense, let them be afraid!)

In the meantime, some of Mr. Greenhouse's British friends are planning a major celebration on the second anniversary of 9-11 atrocities, with the theme of "The Magnificent 19."

This has come to the attention of the Free Republic gang, with the usual results, including this excellent parody of the celebration's advertising graphic.

Phase Three? - VDH
The enemy is growing desperate.

After the first two conventional military victories in Afghanistan of November 2001 and this spring in Iraq, the recent bombings suggest that we are now entering a third phase: A desperate last-ditch war of attrition in which our enemies feel that bombing, suicide murdering, assassination, and general terrorism against Westerners the world over might still achieve what conventional military operations did not. The idea is to make life so miserable for Iraqis, and so dangerous for foreigners, that the United States will withdraw, thus allowing either a fascist autocracy or terrorist theocracy — in the manner of the Taliban or an Afghan warlord — to emerge from the chaos.

Indeed, the abhorrent assault on a U.N. complex in Baghdad — taken together with the near-simultaneous murdering of innocents in Jerusalem, the recent attack on the Jordanian embassy, and the bombing of Iraqi oil and water pipelines — may suggest to critics of the Americans that the enemy is recouping and gaining the upper hand…

In many instances, he felt the Palestinian citizens have been wronged by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and have even felt his wrath when he was among the 47 activist arrested for trying to shield the home of a farmer in the West Bank Village of Ma’sa on Aug. 5.

He was detained for 22 hours and eventually released, but now has a different perspective on what’s really going on in Israel

Why, oh why, do they let these people stay in the country?

Grand Admiral

America has recently decommissioned one of our air craft carriers. Perhaps if you were to ask a deal could be struck that would benefit every one (except the Iranians and Pakistanis of course). The I.S.S. Mosha Dien indeed.

22 hours is how long they keep you in the drunk tank. Coincidence?

"ISS Moshe Dayan"

To say nothing of our land-based air force, soon to unveil the revolutionary AC-48 "Harkonnen" long-range gunship.
This is armed with 24 18-inch guns, 600 cruise missiles, and 8000 tons of bombs, as well as a special riot control weapon that can dispense tear gas, propganda leaflets or pig feces as required. It can also carry a full paratroop division and 100 Merkava tanks, and has a special compartment for the general's mistress. Harkonnen can fly at mach 6 and circle the globe 5 times without refueling.
21 wings of Harkonnens are based in the Negev, with 3 more forming up; a total of 720 aircraft, all that will fit.

101:

I think it would be a grand idea if we sold some recently decommissioned aircraft carriers to Israel.

I know the supply of TLAM's are kind of low since Iraq and Afghanistan, especially since Billy Jeff used them against assorted aspirin factories and for the occasional pin-prick strike in Iraq every time there was an embarrasing scandal at home he needed to divert attention from ( without ever having new ones built), but we should at least license the design spec's to Israel so they'll have plenty of them when it is time to really smack around the scum without exactly going nuclear on their stupid asses.

I still think 4 missiles aimed at the Qa'aba, the last one with a pork chop and bacon fat warhead might confuse the Islamonazi's a bit.

Of course, it's all about him, isn't it?

"The bombing tonight made me want to remain here in working through this peace effort. My efforts are more important now than ever."

Sick. Sick. Sick.

Any chance that Abe will stick around and miss the upcoming hate-fest at his Rutgers campus? I doubt it.

The problem, as I see it, is who is truly to blame for the violence? We see the reponsibility land right in the laps of the Palestinian leadership, he sees it falling to Sharon.

It is lost on me why he cannot see the difference between the thugs/islamofacists, and a parlimentry democracy. How can he be brought up here, and not understand that the little palestinian children he is so worried about are not free and will never be free as long as they are held captive by a Saddam wanna-be.

OT - He's Baaack! Our favourite axis of weasel minister Dominique de Villepin (who is reported to be a man) has the honour of being the first western politician to use the phrase 'Cycle of Violence' with regard to the situation in IRAQ.

De Villepin also told the private RTL radio station that a new UN resolution in which Washington was asking for other countries to bolster its occupying forces would simply "see the cycle of violence worsen".

Iraq is decomposing: de Villepin

Slaps head - sorry Caton - Dominique Galouzeau.

Of course Israel does not have F-14 tomcats,
but if I were naive,
I would say he refers to CATerpillars in the "Jenin massacre" which flattened a few blocks of buildings.
But then again I'm not naive, and he's probably saying this on purpose in order to confuse the average ignorant person.

#75 - papertiger

your kidding. no?

Of course (#55 - d) is not kidding!

A generation of Israelies grew up on this!
"Rehov Sumsum" - in Hebrew
and "Shari Simsim" - in Arabic

and it was a hedgehog named "Kippy", not a porcupine.

My personal favorite were "Moshe Oofnik" (who complained all the time and hated courtesy words)
as well as "Ugi-Fletzet" (the cookie loving monster.)

I'm not familiar with the original american version so I can't tell which is the american equivalent for those characters. I do know there were a few differences.

#107 smit: actually, that'd be Powell... he just used it yesterday. The "cycle" phrase. Yep. In that cute plea to Arafat. Colin Powell has been officially Villepinised. Can't wait to see the matching hairstyle change...

In an incredible turn of events, the Arab League condemns:

Israel for the 'violence and counter violence.'

The Cairo-based pan-Arab organization lashed out at Israel for assassinating the senior Hamas political leader, known for his moderate positions on making peace with the Jewish state.

"Such actions contradicts with international law, the Israeli obligations as stipulated in the internationally-back roadmap blueprint and the international desire to achieve peace," Hisham Youssef, a spokesman for the Arab League, told Egypt’s official Middle East News Agency (MENA).

Of course. Killing 20 innocents and wounding over 100 more in one of the worst suicide bombs since this depraved war began was just another test of the Road Map. It didn't contradict 'international law' or move a fiber of their own humanity.

Dead Jooos is the goal and it is the Jooos fault that they are dying in scores:

"Israel is responsible for the deteriorating situation in the territories and the flare-up of violence and counter violence," said the Arab diplomat.

More Cuckoo clocks sounds please.

It just doesn't stop. If it's not 348 trillion tons of gold that 600,000 people, 50,000 mules, 3,098 Camels and a partridge in a pear treee carried to the promised land, it's the inuendo that Ariel Sharon is directly responsible for the terrorists' actions.

As an aside, is it possible for 600,000 people to move 300,000,000,000,000 tons of gold and, presumably, atleast a ton of cooking utensils?

im so sick of people being sorry for these people who go to israel with the ISM and end up being blasted by bullets while trying to protect the terrorists who kill israeli chiedren and college students. i almost killed my sister when she said how awful it was that the israeli army killed some poor english guy who went to israel as a "peace" activist. i will not tolerate this even from my own family this guy is also an idiot and should be deported from israel then denied access to the US. scumbag is the correct term for this self hating terrorist supporting st. pancake wannabee. what a piece of shit. u guys are right on the money!!!

ooops... Smit - sorry, you're right, I was confusing Iraq/Israel...

#12 Papertiger, "Mr. Greenhouse is going to have to do more then suggest that something horrible happened to some kids parents. Give me facts. Or go fluff Arafats pillow or something."

Greenhouse, yeah, he'd probably be an excellent fluffer.

Nothing like Self-Loathing Jews from New Jersey.

How pathetic

Anyone want to compile a list of Notorious modern day Self-Loathing Jews (Capos)?

1. Adam Shapiro

2. Abe Greenhouse

3. Woody Allen

Michigan Daily article protesting the arrest of Sami Al-Arian.

Note the comment from Abe Greenhouse:

... can we honestly say we expect him to receive a fair trial in a country where one of the most immediate reactions to the tragedy of September 11th was the harrassment, abuse, and even murder of innocent Arab-Americans?

It enrages me every time I think of the fact that while the WTC was falling and there was a frantic search for survivors, NYPD personnel were pulled out to guard mosques against attacks that never happened. That was our most immediate reaction.

I waste no words on Greenhouse, though.

#109 Outsider,

I should have known that there were Rehov Sumsum fans here. I have a few of the videos for my son. Actually, my wife and I love them too... especially Moshe Oofnik (who is in fact the cousin of Oscar the Grouch and invented a new Hebrew letter called IIRC a "yochalechalet").

...and d is right. Kippy is a porcupine.

If I have a chance, I'll share some Rehov Sumsum pics for some end of the week relief.

Michael Glazer:

I would love it if Abe Greenhouse never really made that list - not because he's not self-loathing. Clearly he is.

But he's getting way too much publicity. I wish people would (or could) just ignore him.

The self-promotion of his ignorance is sad (and we're not helping).

He either didn't get enough attention at home or got way too much attention. His parents should smack him.

Anyone who thinks a sound thrashing cannot induce reason is dead wrong. The only way you reach scum like Abe is to beat the crap out of him. A Jew of the same weight class dukes it out with Abe until he says "I give up, you are right and I'll stop lying and embarrassing my Jewish people"

117 Glen Wishard

I waste no words on Greenhouse, though.

I'll try and follow your example.

OT: Israel to Target More Militant Leaders

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israel plans to kill more militant chiefs in raids mirroring a lethal missile strike on a top Hamas leader, Israeli officials warned Friday, as tens of thousands of Palestinians at his funeral promised revenge.

Don't stop till you get enough.

#14 piglet

Somewhat OT, but an interesting story. When the Ayatollah siezed power, the General Dynamics technicians who were maintaining Iran's F-14s were forced to escape, but before they did, they managed to disable the planes so that the Iranians could never fly them again. There are about 75 of them still sitting somewhere in Iran, totally useless.

when Israeli Tomcats tore through two or three city blocks that had been flattened.

We've all been assuming that this was a reference to non-existent Israeli F-14 Tomcats. But perhaps the phrase "Israeli Tomcats" really refers to rambunctious, fun-loving Israeli bachelors, out for a night of hijinx! In which case, I want to party with these guys. They really know how to tear up the town.

OT

Evidently human DNA has similarities to that of the humble earthworm.

Which explains where Chirac came from ?

[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

#113 zaza, I had to read it a few times myself ;)

On the UN bombing a whole new gang on the block claims responsibility.

We, the Armed Vanguards of the Second Mohammed Army, claim responsibility for the bombing of the UN headquarters," said a typewritten message. "We say it proudly that we did not hesitate for one moment to kill crusader blood."

Mystery group says it planted Baghdad bomb

Everyone's got their own gang. I'm gonna start one.

Lizardette Minions of Johnson's First Legion, VRWC Division.

dennisw, Abe is such a colossal pussy that a 12-year old girl could kick his ass.

SoCalJustice, You're absolutely right about Abe's desires. It ALL about him. He could care less about the plight of the palestinains, accept in how it relates to him. About how it makes him feel, about what his feelings are on the matter. He sits home glowing about how important he is. (Well isn't he? Everybody's talking about Abe, and what Abe did, and how Abe did it, and how naughty Abe is, and how radical Abe is.)

I'd be just as happy not, and never having heard of Abe. But hey folks, lets keep talking about him so he knows how we all hang on his every word and deed.

OT: but I wonder who thought this was a good idea:

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 21 — American investigators looking into the suicide bombing of the United Nations compound on Tuesday are focusing on the possibility that the attackers were assisted by Iraqi security guards who worked there, a senior American official here said today.

The official said all of the guards at the compound were agents of the Iraqi secret services, to whom they reported on United Nations activities before the war. The United Nations continued to employ them after the war was over, the official said.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

From Ha'aretz:

Soldier arrested on suspicion of Jewish terror

Besides arresting the IDF soldier for involvement in an underground terror cell and committing unspecified "security crimes", they extended the remand of a guy accused of:

planning terror attacks against Arabs and participating in carrying them out, attempted murder, preparing dangerous materials, and conspiracy.

Of course, if these people were Palestinians, they'd be national heroes, or at least government ministers. Remind me again why "both sides" are responsible for the "cycle of violence""?

#91 alex

Actually, you are wrong on that. The rights of Jews in post Tsarist Russia would have been best served by Kerensky's Provisional Govenrment, overthrown by the Bolsheviks in 1917. Though initially it cracked down hard on anti-semitism, seeing it as a relic of Tsarism and counter-revolution, the Communist Party later began to change course. As early as 1926 or so, Trotsky was complaining that anti-semitic views were now openly taught by some Party cells. Most of the Jews in the Bolshevik Old Guard were exterminated in the purges, and all the evidence indcates that Stalin was preparing a huge pogrom when he died.

(Paul Johnson, in his book History of the Jews devotes a fair amount of pages to Russia under the Tsars and the Bolsheviks)

#9 spiny norman

The appologist probably got his entire knowledge of military aviation from the film Top Gun

#127 -

Un-f***ing-believable.

But never fear. According to the NYT,

the secretary general is sending his security coordinator to Baghdad this evening to investigate the bombing.

I have this image of Dudley Doright riding backwards on his horse.

Greenhouse: The bombing tonight made me want to remain here in working through this peace effort. My efforts are more important now than ever.

[1] It's the context that makes the above two sentances so remarkably obscene.

[2] His "efforts"? Methinks this boy spends waaay too much time masturbating to the idea of his being a Social Hero.

Anybody else try to leave a comment to the Trentonian article? I did last evening but it has not shown up on their web site as promised. My comment was critical but neither profane leibelous.

Just the other day I was in a city in the West Bank and was given a tour of a bomb site from a year ago when Israeli Tomcats tore through two or three city blocks that had been flattened.

Idiot, Israel does not fly Tomcats.

Some "expert".

OT- And another terror group in Iraq is claiming they have 2 US POWs.

Islamist group claims to have captured two US soldiers in Iraq

The group, calling itself Furkat al-Medina al-Munawara, or Medina Faction... named the two as Katherine V. Rose and Andrew Peters, and said that they had been taken in a clash in which two US soldiers were also wounded, LBCI reported.

Medina Faction. [what's that smell? Saudi money perhaps.]

Abe will probably show up soon on CNN wearing his fucking doo-rag and wannabe goatee. Then his life will have meaning.

Isthere a national (American) anti-PC organization? One that shows up at events like the Rutgers hate-fest to counter the asswipes?

It's Friday, it's time for VDH

Contrary to the latest round of punditry, the liberation of Iraq did not stir up a hornet's nest nor create ex nihilo these terrible alliances. No, they are natural expressions of the hatred manifested on 9/11 that will continue until either we or they are defeated

The thing that gets me about this idiot is that he goes to Israel (I remember reading) on one of the absolutely amazing Birthright trips, which is how I went to Israel back in January 2000. For those that don't know Birthright sponsors trips to Israel for college students (and grad students) who have never been before on an educational trip. The kicker: IT'S FREE. Birthright and the Israeli government subsidize these trips.

So in summary, young Abe applied for and was granted a free trip to Israel, sponsored in part by this government he hates so dearly, so that he can act like an idiot and disgrace one of Judaism's most holy sites? Methings Birthright needs to ask Abe for a refund.

#53 Laila

That phone number is "out of service".

I'll bet I'll be able to find little Abe at the Rutgers hate fest in October. He needs a little talking to.

Too bad Donahue was canceled or he could have given dweeb-boy some air-time. Donahue enjoyed spending time with the Betrayers of Israel.

UN Compound Bombing Was Inside Job

Summary:

1. The guards hired by the UN to secure the compound were former(?) members of Saddam's secret police

2. Apparently, the bomb-truck was apparently positioned directly below the office of the ranking UN representative in Iraq

3. Two of the guards have claimed diplomatic immunity and refused to cooperate with the investigation.

Okay, given these reports, and the reports that the UN refused American offers to secure the compound, does Ulf or anyone want to explain again how security failures were America's fault.

OT I hope, since I haven't come across much of this, that it isn't a common occurence, but here is a synagogue in the UK, a small congregation isolated by a couple of miles from a more Jewish area, whose members are routinely taunted going out on Shabbos and keep finding the modest shul's been burgled, daubed or set on fire. Time and again they rally together to right the damage, but finally the task looks too great.

Greenhouse doesn't seem to get it. So I'll break it down to him.

The American people don't care about the Palestinians because unlike the Israelis...they indisciriminately kill old ladies/men, young mothers with babies in their arms, which is a HUGE TABOO in the sophisticated cilvilized mind of an American citizen.
Greenhouse is too smug to realize or know that, "Dumb Yankee," is a reservist, a weekend warrior, or a self-enlisted soldier and is very much aware of the art of WARFARE(He is a bright m'fer when it comes to war, in other words.) The art of warfare does NOT include killing the above mentioned persons.
In the art of warfare opponents square of and leave innocent people out of it altogether.

What the Palestinians are waging is NOT freedom fighting nor is it warfare.

It is: Cowardly AMBUSH of human beings.

Killing a child? How righteously manly is that?

Thew, on those bastard Palestinians. All of them that have not taken to the streets and demanded to halt of killing babies. ANY baby is PRECIOUS. ANY. What part of that does these savages not understand. And why would anyone UPHOLD theirs above others, if they themselves USE their children as bombs.
Think on that Greenhouse. If you would have. You would have never opened your stupid mouth.
Don't ask sympathy for those that give none to others.

In plain English the Palestinians ALONG with ANY Muslim supporters of this kind of SAVAGERY doesn't merit the air they breathe let alone sympathy.

And I know that I speak for a lot of people that are well versed in the art of warfare, that if it were up to US and not the polticians the Palestinians would have been crushed like the cockroaches they are, as they bring nothing to the table of humanity but a bitter taste to be spat out.

So, Greenhouse you ignorant smug pundit. Shut up. You don't speak for Americans.

The Israelis have conducted themelves above and beyond with such admirable dignity in the face of such base savagery, that they are a BLESSING to the world and the Paletinians are VERY lucky that it is the Israelis that they are messing with, because there are people in this world like me, who would get down and dirty and blow their kids to kingdom come as I see them as future bombs and present day damaged protoplasm.

And, let's not lose sight of the fact that the Israelis are sacrificing THEIR OWN citizens daily, by letting the Palestinians breathe another day. That is the price they pay almost DAILY for their dignity and humanity.
SELF-SACRIFICE, in otherwords.

I have a lot to learn from the Israelis. And so does the rest of the world.

God go before the IDF.

#133

"Anybody else try to leave a comment to the Trentonian article? "

Yeah, I did (see #41, above). Still not posted either.

Guess that the Trentonian is waiting for someone who is more enthusiastic about their "local-lad-made-good" angle on this story.

I called the editor, Dave Warner at 609-989-7800. He wasn't in, so I left him a (polite) voicemail. I'm also e-mailing my comments to him at: editor@trentonian.com

By the way, I googled and found that Abe Greenscum is already whining that he isn't receiving the proper attention:

[Link: newjersey.indymedia.org...]

Disgusting.

Michael Glazer, this site is a must see!!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

#143 yasmin nehru ~ beautifully stated.

Wasn't Hitler a self loathing Jew? I thought his mother was Jewish and his father, Christian. Hitler worshipped Lucifer and some pagan shit. Maybe these Jews who hate Jews are Nazi scum. I'm not surprised about these ISM guys--look at all the scum in America who prefer Saddam and bin laden to Bush--self loathing Americans.

Greenhouse is either one of those people who think the road to peace must be paved with the bones of Jews, and is incensed that Jews are not dying fast enough for it to happen.

Or, he's one of those liberals who is genuinely confounded that surrendering to terrorism produces more terrorism, and has no clue why that should be.

From New York City Mayor Bloomberg:

The New York Times
August 22, 2003

Bloomberg to Visit Jerusalem to Support Bombing Victims

Mr. Bloomberg listened to several speakers take a hard-line approach to dealing with Israel's enemies, including one, Alon Pinkas, the consul general of Israel in New York, who said "the Arab world has produced nothing but garden-variety dictatorships."

In a news conference afterward, Mr. Bloomberg joined in. He said, "You can't let somebody start to bomb you or shoot you and then give up everything that they want in return for them to stop. They stop terrorism, then you talk. They don't stop, you hit back and you hit back with everything you have and as hard as you can repeatedly. And if you don't do that, shame on you."

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Exactly.

Every day Israel's leadership does not assert itself, is a day of victory for terrorists.

It's time to end the madness.  It's time to lead your people.
 

#147 Kat

Wasn't Hitler a self loathing Jew? I thought his mother was Jewish and his father, Christian.

Hell no. I don't know where you read that, but I hope to God that people aren't now blaming Jews for coughing up Hitler. Hitler wasn't Jewish or half Jewish or any part Jewish.

Teacake,

Great site!

It is quite sadly pathetic.

Is this due to secularization and lack of spirituality?

The capture story is bullshit. Rest assured, if Iraqi guerillas had captured American servicemen and women we would have undoubtedly seen a videotape of them being beheaded and mutilated on al-Jazeera. Followed by the usual revelries in Ramallah and the West Bank.

Pentagon: Soldier Said Captured Is Safe: Iraqis may have recovered his lost identity card

Greg--sorry--No, I would not blame Jews for Hitler no more than I'd blame today's Jews for Jesus' death. I am pro-Israel. Anyways I've read several accounts of Hitler's fear that he had Jewish blood--but I was wrong about the mother thing--it was supposedly his grandfather. I don't want to offend any Jews--I'm RC and I often get blamed for Hitler.:)

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers
By Bryan Mark Rigg
Mr. Rigg is author of Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military (University Press of Kansas, 2002).

Adolf Hitler is thought to have made war on all Jews, even people who were only "partly Jewish." Mr. Rigg in his new book calls this assumption into question.

Throughout Hitler's political career, he made several exemptions from his ideology. Whatever Hitler had written into decrees was always subject to alteration at his discretion. Hitler granted thousands of Mischlinge (partial Jews) exemptions from the provisions of his racial laws.

Some have claimed that Hitler made exemptions for Mischlinge because of his own "Jewish" past. Since this issue was raised frequently during discussions of this study, it is explored in some detail. The facts seem to indicate that Hitler feared his paternal grandfather was Jewish. As Dr. Fritz Redlich, psychiatrist and author of Hitler: Diagnosis of a Destructive Prophet, said, "Hitler was mixed up about his descent. He was definitely scared about the possibility that he had a Jewish grandfather." However, no documents have survived to confirm or deny this allegation.

Hitler may have given exemptions to Mischlinge because of his own experiences with them and Jews. Hitler spent time and possibly was romantically involved with quarter-Jew Gretl Slezak. He had met the Austrian Jew Dr. Eduard Bloch, who took care of his mother during her battle with cancer. Hitler respected Bloch. After the Anschluss in 1938, Hitler made sure that Bloch was protected until the proper documents had been procured for his emigration. Hitler saw to it that Bloch, whom he called a "noble Jew," could leave Germany unharmed. Hitler may also have given exemptions to Mischling soldiers because of his contact with Jews during World War I, through which he learned how brave many of them had been. Hitler received his EKI on the nomination of Hugo Gutmann, his regiment's adjutant, a Jew. Such firsthand experiences may have motivated Hitler to give exemptions to some Mischlinge.

Hitler had shown from the beginning of his political career a tendency to make exemptions. Between 1920 and 1933, he usually granted them because of political necessity. He allowed Ernst Rohm to command the SA even though Rohm was a homosexual. Although those who were homosexual were later marked for persecution, at this stage Hitler believed matters "purely in the private sphere" should be left alone. Perhaps the most famous exemption was given to Heydrich, the "Blond Beast," head of the SD Reich Security Main Office and one of the architects of the Endlosung.

When Heydrich was a child in Halle, neighborhood children made fun of him, calling him "Isi" (Izzy), short for Isidor, a name with a Jewish connotation. This nickname upset Heydrich. When he served in the navy, many of his comrades believed he was Jewish. Some called him the "blond Moses." Others who lived in Halle have claimed that everybody believed that his father, the musician Bruno Heydrich, was a Jew. Half-Jew Alice Schaper nee Rohr, who took piano lessons from Bruno, claimed, "We all knew he was Jewish. ...He looked just like a typical Jew." In town, Bruno was called Isidor Suess behind his back. With such rumors going around, it was not surprising that Heydrich felt continually burdened by these allegations, especially when he served as an SS general.

One will never know whether Heydrich was truly of Jewish descent unless more documents are found, but it is possible that Himmler and Hitler may have believed he was. In the early 1930s, according to Himmler's masseur Felix Kersten (if he can be believed), Hitler had told Himmler, "Heydrich was a highly gifted but also dangerous man, whose gifts the movement had to retain. Such people could still be used so long as they were kept well in hand and for that purpose his non-Aryan origins were extremely useful; for he would be eternally grateful to us that we had kept him and not expelled him and would obey blindly."

According to Speer, Hitler often used flaws of men in positions of authority to control them. In this case, Heydrich's possible flaw was "Jewish ancestors." Heydrich often took those who claimed he was Jewish to court for slander. He did so as late as 1940 and sent another man to a concentration camp. Admiral Canaris, head of the Abwehr, presumably had a large dossier on Heydrich's Jewish past and threatened to reveal what he had if the SS tried to infringe on Abwehr activities. Heydrich was definitely haunted by stories of his Jewish past.

Hitler's actions with Rohm and Heydrich show that he had the ability to ignore "defects" in men who, he felt, could serve his political cause. In this respect, Hitler bent his ideological principles to meet political needs.

This article is excerpted from Mr. Rigg's book with permission of the publisher.

Re:teacake ...Capn Kangaroo
Actor Lee Marvin told a story on The Tonight Show
Johnny asked him something about WWII,and he said yes he was wounded on,I think,Iwo Jima. But the bravest man I ever saw was My sargeant. He stood up on the beach and ordered the troops off the beach and out of fire. His name is Bob Keesham, later known as Captain Kangaroo.

#79 So what is the meaning of that Cand F cartoon. Looks like colors of Pal flag but I don't get the rest.THX

#154

that story's straight Bull...check out snopes.com for a debunking of that urban legend...

Pardon my late arrival to the "Tomcat" fray, but what's even more funny is that, even if Israel WERE equipped with Tomcats (which they're not - Iran is the only other nation in the world to which these aircraft were supplied, and, as mentioned before, theirs are now very expensive museum pieces - nothing more), the odds are that they wouldn't have had the ability to hit targets on the ground. The Tomcat was never built for that mission, and has only been adapted for the tactical role in the past few years, and only on a limited basis (only a few of the remaining squadrons have been given that role - mostly those who fly the upgraded -D models - which have never been exported).

Hardly the most crucial point in an analysis of this despicable terror apologist, of course, but the fact that he's exponentially wrong about such details really seems to be an interesting microcosm of his general idiocy.

Ernie - Arik
Bert - Bentz
Cookie - Oogi or Oogi Ha-Mifletzet or Oogifletzet
Prairie - Miri
Betty Lou - Chaftzi-Bah (which means "my delight is in her")
Kermit - Kermit
Grover - Kruvi (= little angel, cherub)
Super Grover - Kruvi Ahuvi
Oscar - Mar Ashpach (the Israeli version of Oscar is Moshe Ooffnik but this is Oscar's own name) (mar=mister, ennit?)
Count - Mar S'for
Don Music - Gali Musikali
Lefty - Mar Karkumi
Farley - Pupik (which means 'belly button')
Mr Hooper - Mar Kuper
Roosevelt Franklin - Binyamin Ze'ev Weitzman (!)
Sherlock Hemlock - Sherlock Hemlock
Guy Smiley - Mumu Talpaz
Biff - Beni
Sully - Sami

(from the muppets forum)

#145 Teacake

"Progressive" self-loathing Jews = Stockholm Syndrome writ large.

If someone can use a smile today:
The Counting Count (wearing a kipa), The Aleph-Bet Telethon, Oscar The Grouch and Moshe Oofnik with the "yochalechalet."

Big L - didn't know that. Very cool.

Spiny Norman - progressive - agressive whats the dif? I always laugh when people refere to themselves as a progressive... as if it means anything more than an ego massage.

Hi.

It's amazing to me that so much of the discussion here has been based on one of the misquotes I mentioned when I posted this article on NJ-IMC. The reporter and I had a really bad connection, and he told me he was only getting "every other word". I never said anything about "Tomcats" - I said "F-16s". I honestly don't know much about aviation history, but I know a little about what Israel does and doesn't use.

There were quite a few other misquotes - like "peace offering" (I don't know where that came from) and "press tent" (there was no tent - I simply got closer to the scene by flashing my student ID).

I have nothing but grief for the 20 innocent people who died in the attack, and sympathy for their families. One of the major reasons I'm involved in working to end the occupation is that I genuinely believe that it perpetuates the cycle that has killed too many innocents on BOTH sides. I am ABSOLUTELY opposed to the deliberate killing of noncombatants by ANYONE, and was genuinely horrified by what I saw. Nothing, not even the occupation, justifies cold-blooded murder.

I'm just an ordinary guy trying to do what I think is right, even when it means being marginalized by my own people. Sometimes I make mistakes, but I do my best to learn from them. That's it. I realize most of you will probably never be convinced, but that's the truth. If any of you are curious and have an open mind, check out FROM JEW TO JEW: WHY WE SHOULD OPPOSE THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, available at [Link: www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org...] I've read your comments - now consider my perspective.

Abe

end the occupation

The very notion that the Jews are illegally "occupying" Judea and Samaria would be laughable to me (if it weren't the cause of so much sorrow).

Jericho, Bethlehem, Hebron, Shechem... these cities all belong to the Arabs? In perpetuity? And should be Judenrein? No.

Abe I hope you ride the buses as much as possible.

Mr. Greenhouse:

Did you leave that note in the Western Wall, and did it say what Charles says it did?

Yes or no?

Abe,

"Occupation" is the excuse, not the reason, for muslim violence.

Muslims will always seek to exterminate the infidel for genocidal "jihad." But they always make excuses.

Right now there are over 30 genocidal muslim wars of aggression where they refuse peace, vs:
indians
chechnya
macedonians
phillipinos
indonesian christians
egytian christians
armeniam
chinese muslims
al queda vs. US
PLO vs israel
nigeria
chad

Israel is just one example of muslim genocidal wars, that haven't ceased for 1400 years, and never will cease.

If he's interested in having a discussion, where is he? He seems to have dropped in, and out. I would like to know the same thing as someguy #165. For starters, that is.

Sometimes I make mistakes, but I do my best to learn from them.

Abe,

Would one of those mistakes possibly be the note you stuffed into the Wall? And if so, what have you learned from it?

Mr. Greenhouse,

I to am against all killing and wish for the Palestinian Arabs to have their own state if they can be proved to be NOT a threat to Israel. What the Arabs are doing against the Israelis is terrorism plain and simple.

A big part of the problem is that you and others of the Left™ confuse terrorism with legitimate self defense. The PA and its "forces" blow-up buses and then go hide behind women and children. Both of those acts would be war crimes in any normal conflict.

And YOU support the terrorists.

Having said that I am against all killing, that does not mean that killing is unavoidable. Israel is doing what she must do to survive. YOU ARE NOT HELPING, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Photi

Thanks, zulubaby. Like I said on the latest thread, he's in "voice of Saruman" mode.

And like Aragorn, if we're patient and strong, he will not be able to sustain that fiction for long.

"Strong in the Dark Side, he is."

/Yoda

Abe ,

SO when you say you are opposed to the targting of noncombatants can you give me ONE example of when Israel has targeted a noncombatant???

I cannot think of any examples of Israel deliberately targeting a noncombatant. Sure, there have been innocent people killed as collateral damage when the "militiants" were hiding amongst them but that is quite different then blowing up a bus with kids. (Hell, you can argue that if those "innocents" who are collateral damage were actually hidng and aiding and abetting the "militants" then they really arent "noncombatants" but I will not go down that path yet...it isnt necessary. i think it suffices to say that Israel has never targeted a noncombatant deliberately)

Abe, you wrote,

We saw all the standard tourist spots - Masada, Yad Vashem, Independence Hall, the Dead Sea, the Western Wall (where I inserted a note reading "End the motherfuckin' occupation!!!" into the cracks), and various kibbutzim near the Syrian and Lebanese borders

As a human being, I am ashamed I share the same air with you.

#172 justdanny:

As a human being, I am ashamed I share the same air with you.

He's taking up space, too.

Thank you, Abe, for looking out for the Palies. Others here may consider you a turncoat shitbag. Not me. I recognize that with only 1.2 billion Muslims and mere 4 billion or so others advocating for the Palies, and supporting their effort to murder every Jew they can reach, they need you more than your people do. Good job, brother. The Jews certainly are guilty of continuing their selfish desire to live in peace and protect their children. You go! (to hell)

zulubaby #167

I seems that you are right. Greenhouse just stepped in to have his little bleat and then ran (like the coward that he is).

In addition to knowing about his little note, I'd like to know if he is still claiming a "Jenin Massacre"

Yours,
Photi

I wonder how he came to LGF anyway.

You think he was web searching for his own name?
--That would be my guess. You know "wow I am so cool how I stick up for terrorists...They made a website for Rachel...I wonder when my website will come up now...I am so cool."
These ISM'rs seem so impressed with themselves.

If they only knew who it was they were REALLY "protecting"

On second thought...does anyone know if it was really him or not? Could it be Gordon? Or am? Or any other troll who leaves his steaming droppings and promptly bails?

Abe,

Moral indignation is one thing; you can get alot of ink out of it. But to portray yourself as some self-loathing social martyr just to satisfy your own ego is at least a disservice to the real victims. This is REAL LIFE for these people.

Oh, by the way, JIMC has a good point...need money for fare? JERK!

He came to LGF by following a link from Tal G's ISM Central blog. And yes, I think it is him for real; the comment was posted from Israel.

I hope he does return, and try to answer some of these questions. Let's not all pile on at once and scare Abe away.

On second thought...does anyone know if it was really him or not? Could it be Gordon? Or am? Or any other troll who leaves his steaming droppings and promptly bails?

oh yeah..hadn't though of that...

EFC!

#179 Charles

I'll keep my fingers away from the keyboard. I promise.

Photi, someguy:

His post is a whine, nothing more. Or bleat. He wanted to clear up a couple of misquotes -- done. It's all about him, selfish and self-centered. Now, let's hear about what it was like to see that massacre of babies and innocent men and women -- mothers and fathers and sons and daughters and sisters and brothers and uncles and aunts and friends and lovers and co-workers and neighbours on that bus. I know someone who was there, at the scene, immediately after. He said that he has never, ever in his life experienced anything like it -- the blood, the body parts, the smell, the noise, the confusion, the screams. He said that no matter how many times you've watched footage of it on TV, no matter how many AP/AFP/Reuters 'photos you've looked at, you cannot imagine what it is like in the real.

Abe, are you still throwing up from what you saw there, are you sleeping at night?

Look at this picture I just came across on the Yahoo! slideshow. I am furious and disgusted. The accompanying caption reads:

Preparation : Masked Palestinian militants prepare themselves for a possible Israeli incursion in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah. (AFP/Said Khatib)

The IDF needs to find Said Khatib.

I think it's him, the writing style is his.

#179 Charles: And I will do my very best to ask him questions that will make him reveal himself (for better and/or worse).

"Keep your mind on the present Force, young Padawan," he tells himself.

I wish SecHumanist was around. He is the most sane, patient person and would be able to handle this without losing his cool, elegant soul that he is.

It's all about him, selfish and self-centered. Now, let's hear about what it was like to see that massacre of babies and innocent men and women

...summed up as only Zulubaby can do

Abe, I hope I run into you the next time I do reserve duty in the territories. You're a traitor and a racist, and I'll treat you accordingly.

Palestinians claim that they are justified in murdering women and children because of the "occupation." Such claims are no more worthy of respect than the complaints of white supremacists angry that their dreams of racial supremacy have been frustrated. Still, I would like to know what excuse these barbarians have for murders committed before Israel even existed? For instance, this weekend is the seventy-fourth anniversary of the Hebron Massacre:

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

The Hebron Massacre of 1929
by Shira Schoenberg

For some time, the 800 Jews in Hebron lived in peace with their tens of thousands of Arab neighbors. But on the night of August 23, 1929, the tension simmering within this cauldron of nationalities bubbled over, and for 3 days, Hebron turned into a city of terror and murder. By the time the massacres ended, 67 Jews lay dead and the survivors were relocated to Jerusalem, leaving Hebron barren of Jews for the first time in hundreds of years.

The summer of 1929 was one of unrest in Palestine. Jewish-Arab tensions were spurred on by the agitation of the mufti in Jerusalem. Just one day prior to the start of the Hebron massacre, three Jews and three Arabs were killed in Jerusalem when fighting broke out after a Muslim prayer service on the Temple Mount. Arabs spread false rumors throughout their communities, saying that Jews were carrying out "wholesale killings of Arabs." Meanwhile, Jewish immigrants were arriving in Palestine in increasing numbers, further exacerbating the Jewish-Arab conflict.

Hebron had, until this time, been outwardly peaceful, although tension hid below the surface. The Sephardi Jewish community in Hebron had lived quietly with its Arab neighbors for centuries. The Sephardi Jews (Jews who were originally from Spain, North Africa and Arab countries) spoke Arabic and had a cultural connection to their Arab neighbors. In the mid-1800s, Ashkenazi (native European) Jews started moving to Hebron and, in 1925, the Slobodka Yeshiva, officially the Yeshiva of Hevron, Knesset Yisrael-Slobodka, was opened. Yeshiva students lived separately from the Sephardi community, and from the Arab population. Due to this isolation, the Arabs viewed them with suspicion and hatred, and identified them as Zionist immigrants. Despite the general suspicion, however, one yeshiva student, Dov Cohen, still recalled being on "very good" terms with the Arab neighbors. He remembered yeshiva boys taking long walks late at night on the outskirts of the city, and not feeling afraid, even though only one British policeman guarded the entire city.

On Friday, August 23, 1929, that tranquility was lost. Arab youths started throwing rocks at the yeshiva students. That afternoon, one student, Shmuel Rosenholtz, went to the yeshiva alone. Arab rioters later broke in and killed him, and that was only the beginning.

Friday night, Rabbi Ya’acov Slonim’s son invited any fearful Jews to stay in his house. The rabbi was highly regarded in the community, and he had a gun. Many Jews took him up on this offer, and many Jews were eventually murdered there.

As early as 8:00 a.m. on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, Arabs began to gather en masse. They came in mobs, armed with clubs, knives and axes. While the women and children threw stones, the men ransacked Jewish houses and destroyed Jewish property. With only a single police officer in Hebron, the Arabs entered Jewish courtyards with no opposition.

Rabbi Slonim, who had tried to shelter the Jewish population, was approached by the rioters and offered a deal. If all the Ashkenazi yeshiva students were given over to the Arabs, the rioters would spare the lives of the Sephardi community. Rabbi Slonim refused to turn over the students and was killed on the spot. In the end, 12 Sephardi Jews and 55 Ashkenazi Jews were murdered.

A few Arabs did try to help the Jews. Nineteen Arab families saved dozens, maybe even hundreds of Jews. Zmira Mani wrote about an Arab named Abu Id Zaitoun who brought his brother and son to rescue her and her family. The Arab family protected the Manis with their swords, hid them in a cellar along with other Jews who they had saved, and found a policeman to escort them safely to the police station at Beit Romano.

The police station turned into a shelter for the Jews that morning of August 24. It also became a synagogue as the Orthodox Jews gathered there and said their morning prayers. As they finished praying, they began to hear noises outside the building. Thousands of Arabs descended from Har Hebron, shouting "Kill the Jews!" in Arabic. They even tried to break down the doors of the station.

The Jews were besieged in Beit Romano for three days. Each night, ten men were allowed to leave to attend a funeral in Hebron’s ancient Jewish cemetery for the murdered Jews of the day.

When the massacre finally ended, the surviving Jews were forced to leave their home city and resettled in Jerusalem. Some Jewish families tried to move back to Hebron, but were removed by the British authorities in 1936 at the start of the Arab revolt. In 1948, the War of Independence granted Israel statehood, but further cut the Jews off from Hebron, a city that was captured by King Abdullah's Arab Legion and ultimately annexed to Jordan.

When Jews finally gained control of the city in 1967, a small number of massacre survivors again tried to reclaim their old houses. Then defense minister Moshe Dayan supposedly told the survivors that if they returned, they would be arrested, and that they should be patient while the government worked out a solution to get their houses back. Years later, settlers moved to parts of Hebron without the permission of the government, but for those massacre survivors still seeking their original homes, that solution never came.

Sources: Arutz Sheva, Interview with Rabbi Dov Cohen, (August 1, 1999). Ben-David, Calev, “To live and die in Hebron,” The Jerusalem Post, (July 23, 1999). See also: Hebron.

zulubaby #182:

Yeah, that's pretty disgusting.

Does that remind anyone else of a rap group pose?

#182 zulubaby -

Incredible picture. They dressed up in (probably fake) suicide bomb belts (as if that's going to make much of a difference against a well-organized IDF offensive based on tanks, helicopters etc), grabbed whatever weapons or weapon-like objects they could find, put on those adorable little red headbands, and had the photographer lie on the ground and take an upward-angled picture to make them look more intimidating.

This is a childish piece of propaganda. Why is a major news service distributing it as news?

Does that remind anyone else of a rap group pose?

Run ISM?

ISM supports terrorists blowing up babies and children ON PURPOSE..they state this as their position!..nuff said!
(any means neccesary is their position and we all know what means the palestinians use)

And Abe, did you know muslims are proping up the idea that a chinese muslim discovered America in 1421?
What will you say when muslims say they must free America for Allah, and end the jewish and christian occupation of America?
Will you support the terror here also?
Nevermind I already know the answer.
You are the perfect Dhimmi.

The palistinians could have a state, if they would police the terrorists, but they wont, because they dont want a state, you know this, of all people!
The Islamists think all jews must die, per their holy book and prophet and the whole world must be under submission to Allah..you may be willing to be a dhimmi, but most free sane people are not!
You come here and try to be all smooth and caring...I dont buy it, you are a slave to Allah, just like those you support.
I bet you were so excited when you saw the bus bombing, werent you?, your senses heightened, the exhilaration, you probably never felt more alive.
I know you felt that way, you may not admit it, but I know you did.

Sorry Charles, I know you said be nice and enter dialogue, but I must tell the truth about people such as Abe, they must know that other people can see into their hearts, and I wish to confront the evil inside their hearts, I'm not so much speaking about or to "Abe Greenhouse" but to the ravenous deceit that has settled into his mind and heart that causes his delusion.
He knows what I'm talking about above, he knows he felt that way at the bus bombing, and I just want him to know that I know this about him.

For you Abe:

The Jews were besieged in Beit Romano for three days. Each night, ten men were allowed to leave to attend a funeral in Hebron’s ancient Jewish cemetery for the murdered Jews of the day.

...just in case you thought your argument had any starch left in it...

EFC!

179 Charles

I hope he does return, and try to answer some of these questions. Let's not all pile on at once and scare Abe away.

My guess is he will not return. Deep in his heart he knows the truth but somehow he has allowed himself (stupid fella...!) to become brainwashed. What Greenfield does best is spew bullshit with little if anything to give substance to his actions and his words. His balls have shrunk to nothing along with his soul. Furthermore no amount of rational answers can or will satisfy his misdirection.

Two things which come to my mind this moment which should scare Greenfield are the the multitude of consequences because of his actions and the fact he can't watch his back every second.

BC (#190)

They dressed up in (probably fake) suicide bomb belts

No, I believe those are the real thing.

sadly

What a coward. Nitpicking about whether he said Tomcat or not but unwilling to answer any serious questions.

You're right. He probably ain't comin' back,

Thanks for leaving your words on Charles website for all to read. You should have written more.

However, I can tell a lot about who you are just by the few words you wrote.

Your statement that the "occupation . . . perpetuates the cycle that has killed too many innocents on BOTH sides," and that you oppose "the deliberate killing of noncombatants by ANYONE" reveals your complete ignorance of the issues involved in this conflict. The only question I have is whether your ignorance is wilful or genuine.

The words "occupation" and "cycle" (as in "cycle of violence") and the accusation that Israel targets noncombatants are the shibboleths that identify you as a another perfidious purveyor of Palestinian propaganda.

I hope you respond should you happen to read this. I personally do not care what you honestly believe. When you wilfully spread lies about this conflict, you are also a liar. Whether you believe in the lie or not is irrelevant.

Abe:

"One of the major reasons I'm involved in working to end the occupation is that I genuinely believe that it perpetuates the cycle that has killed too many innocents on BOTH sides."

What do you mean by "occupation"? For the Arab terrorists, "occupation" means Israel and "ending the occupation" means the extermination of Israel and all the Jews. What does "occupation" mean to you? Check with your Palie pals and ask them, what it means to them.

It's a laugh, you "genuinely believe". How blind must you be to "genuinely believe" what you believe? You, sir, are a fool and a knave. You support the most evil killers on the planet. You are not innocent. Blood is on your hands, no matter how often you try to wash it off with your "genuine belief".

What do you mean by "occupation"? For the Arab terrorists, "occupation" means Israel and "ending the occupation" means the extermination of Israel and all the Jews. What does "occupation" mean to you? Check with your Palie pals and ask them, what it means to them.

Yeah!...what he said...

Hmmm.
If our Abe is over here, perhaps local readers can identify where he hangs out. A word in the right place could have him picked up and chucked out.
Abewatch, anyone ?

energyforcapital (#186)

Thanks :-)

#162 Abe Greenhouse
You talk about "ending the occupation". If there were a Pali state, that would suffice, would it not?

Israel would agree in principle to a Pali state under conditions under which it is demilitarized, Israel controls the air space, it cannot invite foreign troops nor import foreign arms, and is not a terrorist irredentist state.

But first, there needs to be dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. Otherwise, the terrorists control what happens, and there cannot be any progress toward a peaceful future.

So you are emphasizing the wrong thing. The state comes later. First the terror needs to get dismantled. Then there can be diplomatic negotiations to discuss the future. A future with terrorist capabilities is not worth your striving for, is it?

Abe's not coming back, folks, in case anyone missed it. Actually, I'm sure he's coming back to read all about himself, because, as zulubaby said and we all know about these people, it's all about them. But he's not going to post any meaningful answers to any of these questions, especially about what he put in the Wailing Wall.

Putz.

"you and others of the Left™ "

everything has pretty much been brilliantly said, except to note that this "trademarking" of the Left is brilliantly funny

#200 jabba the nutt
Good post.

You wrote, and I agree that you posed a very important question for Abe to answer, and for anyone to answer who recites the mantra "end the occupation" :

"What do you mean by 'occupation'? For the Arab terrorists 'occupation' means Israel and 'ending the occupation' means the extermination of Israel and all the Jews... Check with your Palie pals and ask them, what it means to them."

Does Abe support a 2-state solution, one Arab, the other Jewish? Or a one-state solution, all Arab (sooner or later)? Or a 2-state solution, one Judenrein, the other lebanized by being flooded with millions of descendants of refugees and engaged in endless civil war? The "end the occupation" mantra does not explain where one stands; its ambiguity covers a lot of evils. And that is exactly why the death-to-Israel crowd love it.

Is there not some way that we here on LGF can start a grass roots campaign to have the ISM added to the Terrorist and Terrorist Supporting Group list?!?! Our government must be made aware of these evil people.

Let's not forget, folks, that these ISM creeps are the people who, while demonstrating against and tearing down the security fence, chanted the terrorists' slogan:

"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."

They don't want peace for both sides. Unless you're talking about the peace of the grave.

Abe won't be back. Go to hell, Abe. Quickly.

Abe:

I have read your perspective. Now read mine. When you talk to other Jews and pro-Israel supporters, it seems that you marginalize your language, make it seem "moderate" and "pro-peace." I have read other stuff of yours in other sources and it is far from moderate. Your actions are unethical, insensitive, and disrespectful (putting a vulgar note in a place revered by many as holy place, putting your two cents in after a suicide bombing, etc.)

Abe, I understand you are well intentioned and want to do right in the world. However, many bad things have been done by people with the best intentions (although I am not saying you are like those people) Here is some food for thought:

Don't trash Zionism. Most Jews in this world see Zionism as liberation, as freedom from oppression, as standing up for our rights. Certain Zionists may do bad things, but it isn't fair to the rest of us to insult the whole thing. The problem isn't Zionism: it is the refusal of the world to allow Jews the same rights and privledges as everyone else. That's the truth.

There are many Zionists committed to peace and a two-state solution. We are in fact in the majority. We just won't compromise with terror. That's the truth.

It is one thing to be for an Israeli withdrawal from Judea, Samaria, and Gaza (I like to refer to them by their indigenous names). It is quite another to be against Israel's existence. That's the truth.

You don't need to be marginalized by your own people. If you would concentrate your energy in working with people to build a better world instead of fighting with people, you would have a larger following. Instead, you have just a bunch of fringe groups of people. Yes, you are in the minority (as an anti-Zionist Jew) and are on the fringe. You don't represent Jews. I know you'll never be convinced, but that's the truth.

There are many Zionists out there who believe in peace, maybe in the way you do (a just and fair solution). People who believe in two states for two peoples, but also believe in Zionism and the Jewish state. People who wish to work with the Jewish community and Israel to fight for peace, not fight against them. I know, because I am one of them.

Abe you Kapo, people such as yourself will eventually be killed by your friends the Islamofascists. Enjoy your time in Gehenneom (HELL) and give Rachel Corrie a big kiss on the lips for me!

#179 Charles:

You have the IP address of the ISP used.

Please?

Thanks, Goldbe49 (#210).

You've pretty much summed up my position as well. Right now the ISM is part of the (larger) problem -- that being the false sense of legitimacy it gives to people whose real aim is simply to wipe Israel off the face of the Middle East. I am perfectly willing to work towards a compromise on peace with Palestinians (or others) who are genuinely prepared to live as cordial neighbours with Israel. The problem is that the ISM and its fellow travellers make no distinction between people agitating for a true two-state solution and those who see any "truce" with Israel as merely one step towards its eventual destruction (either by armed conflict or by "right of return").

goldbe49 calls abe and others like him an anti-zionist Jew. At risk of being banned or sounding flippant, I would actual characterize and call him and other Jews like him as "Jew hating Jews". On NBC news, Martin Fliescher would be an excellant example.

I work in finance, have many Jewish friends, two or three of which seem to fall in that category. Remember for centuries Jews have been hated and made scapegoats. "Everyone hates the Jews." Not really but at times it seems that way. Long live freedom and liberty. Long live Israel. Long live the USA.

Abe Greenhouse:

Many people have heard from people of the left that the fence/wall/whatever you want to call it is racist.

But if this barrier is built along the route of the green line, and separates Israel from the west-bank and demarcates a Palestinian state, tell me how you can protest against this barrier?

What is your objection to the barrier if it gives the Pals a demarcated state?

Hi.

In response to some of the questions posted, I actually did write a brief 2-part essay, posted in the form of comments to the original NJ IMC article, about my action at the wall. Yes, I did place the note as quoted. And to be honest, I still don't know whether it was a mistake or not. On a personal level, the intention was genuinely to pray for peace. The pic I posted of the action to IMC was intended mainly for the leftist activists that serve as IMC's main readership. I honestly didn't think about how others would react, and in retrospect, perhaps I should have. But if you're curious about this, I would refer you to my comments on IMC, which are around #100 or so.

With regard to my personal stance (this does not necessarily reflect the position of any group that I work with), I support a two state solution as the most immediate way to resolve the conflict. I would like to see these two states eventually merge into a single, fully democratic, and secular state. I don't support the idea of any state granting different rights and priviliedges to members of different ethnic or religious groups. Thus, while I oppose the concept of an institutionalized "Jewish state", I am equally opposed to the concepts of Muslim states, Christian states, black states, and white states.

To me, a truly Jewish state would be one that simply reflected Jewish values, as opposed to exisiting under Jewish political hegemony. Obviously, none of us are going to have exactly the same interpretation of what those values should be, but according to my own personal interpretation of what Judaism means, Israel is not a paragon of the same. I am genuinely proud to be Jewish, and don't just wear it on my sleeve for political efficacy. I've studied Jewish history, my own personal family history, as well as Yiddish, the language spoken by my grandparents. My connection with such things is a point of pride for me; I would like to see Israel transformed into something that myself, and hopefully all Jews, could be equally proud of, without the slightest hesitation.

And yes, the aftermath of the bombing, even though I arrived late enough to have been spared the sight of massive blood and gore, was one of the most horrible things I've seen in my life. Such inhuman acts set back the cause of peace tremendously, and should always be opposed by anyone truly interested in seeing justice done.

Abe:

Thank you for responding.

I would like to know what you personally think about the wall/fence being built around parts of the west bank?

Also I would like you to keep in mind that this 'fence' is trying to keep bombings out of Israel proper, and in doing so prevent the deaths of innocent non-combatants, as was witnessed in Jerusalem last Tuesday.

#216 - Abe:

Thank you for being honest enough to admit that for all of your talk of "peace", what you really want is to destroy Israel.

I'm just so humbled to be in the presence of such an enlightened person. How surprising it is to discover that we're (i.e., 99.9% of the world's Jews) all wrong and you self-hating nutbags are right.

Loser.

Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me.

Such inhuman acts set back the cause of peace tremendously, and should always be opposed by anyone truly interested in seeing justice done.

Yeah, those "actions" are bad aren't they, cuz they expose your buddies true intentions: of the complete and utter destruction of Israel and all Jews from the face of the earth.

I know I would truly like to see justice done, but I'm pretty certain our versions of justice are just slightly different.

Abe:

I'm going to take you at face value and assume that what you say is sincere - it may or may not be, but it does nobody any good and advances the dialogue not a whit to immediately go to ad hominem and questioning of underlying motives. Thank you for responding to our questions - I have one more in particular that I am extremely interesting in having you answer.

You say that you are eventually in favor of a SINGLE-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The reasons you gave seem admirable enough IN THEORY, but do you not realize that they suffer from fatal utopianism? Uniting the Palestinians and the Jews would never create a peaceful polyglot Czechoslovakia-type state - it would turn into Lebanon.

More importantly - and this is what I desperately want you to answer - do you not realize that once the Palestinians became citizens of Israel the first thing they would try to (and likely successfully) do is to use the democratic process to gain the reins of power and then subvert it? Change the democracy into a Muslimocracy or whatever you'd like to call it (I don't think theocracy would be appropriate in this case.) Carl Schmitt, a well-known (albeit very personally shady) political theorist best identified the fundamental weakness of Parliamentary democracy, and that is the 'inability to distinguish friend from enemy.'

In other words, parliamentary processes are unable, by their very nature of value-neutral political egalitarianism, to prevent a malcontent group from seizing the reins of power and then 'slamming the door behind them,' to use Schmitt's formulation. Just like in Weimar Germany (Schmitt wrote during this period, and predicted all too clearly what Weimar's eventual fate would be), a Palestinian demographic majority would be able to gain power in parliament and then instantly change the laws to oppress Jews and favor themselves, and most likely to destroy the democracy altogether. They could do this simply because they'd have the most votes, and after it was done, there would never be any need to vote again.

Considering the polarized and radicalized state of the Palestinian people, and their oft-expressed desire to eradicate Jewry from the Middle East, why isn't blazingly obvious that the Palestinians can't be melded into a single-state solution because the first thing they'd seek to do is use their newfound power to turn it against the Jews? Are you arguing that they would NOT behave this way? If you ARE arguing that, you need to explain why you think the Palestinians would, after decades of behaving in one fashion, all of a sudden turn on a dime and become nice, pacific pluralists. Do you really believe that will happen?

I believe a two-state solution is ultimate the just, necessary, and final answer to the problem. I just don't understand how you don't see (or disagree, perhaps) that a single-state solution wouldn't instantly turn into a process of the Palestinians oppressing the minority Jews as soon as it was possible. Nothing in their behavior, or the behavior of any Arab culture in the entire documented history of mankind, indicates that they would do otherwise.

I would immensely appreciate a response to this. Thanks for walking into the fire here with us at LGF - I'm sure it's not easy.

I have nothing but grief for the 20 innocent people who died in the attack, and sympathy for their families. One of the major reasons I'm involved in working to end the occupation is that I genuinely believe that it perpetuates the cycle that has killed too many innocents on BOTH sides. I am ABSOLUTELY opposed to the deliberate killing of noncombatants by ANYONE, and was genuinely horrified by what I saw. Nothing, not even the occupation, justifies cold-blooded murder.

This paragraph is the most telling of Abe's mentality. His main concern is "the occupation", and by focusing on that he perpetuates a lie about 1) whose fault the violence is, and 2) who can stop it. He speaks of a cycle, but by harping on "the occupation" he's basically saying it's all Israel's fault.

Abe gives only lip service to deploring the murders done by terrorists. The ISM, as we learned today, tried to defend a bomb-making lab from the ISF. So much for a commitment to peace, eh Abe? If he opposes the deliberate killing of innocents, why support Palestinians in making bombs? Or more obliquely, why identify with the ISM if it does so?

The word "cycle" is a way to weasel out of examining fault. On one side, terrorists blow up innocent people. On the other side, military forces target terrorist ringleaders. Terrorists sometimes claim they blow up children out of "revenge" for the IDF incinerating a Hamas bigwig, and from that comes the fallacy of a "cycle". There is no chicken-and-egg dilemma here; terrorists started the killing, they've continued it even in the absence of any reason beyond "the occupation", and they'll keep on doing it until they're forcibly stopped.

Israel would gladly leave the Palestinians under self-government, if they would then be left alone. The terrorists do not want to leave them alone, though. If Israel were to completely pull out of the West Bank and Gaza tomorrow, the only response would be even more terror: because the terrorists' real goal is to drive Israel into the sea. Such a move on Israel's part would be like putting blood in the water; it would provoke a feeding frenzy.

Realistically, Israel has no way to end "the occupation" until terrorism is truly a rarity and Palestinians are determined to be rid of its evil. While they cheer on masked thugs in the streets, that won't happen. While the ISM helps terrorists avoid IDF raids, that won't happen. Eliminating terrorism should be the first goal of the ISM, if their real cause is to stop the violence. Otherwise one can only conclude that they too want to see Israel driven into the sea--or else they're so blinded to the truth of the situation that they'll forgive any atrocity, so long as there's a way to indirectly blame Israel for it.

Abe (#216)

Thanks for responding. It would be nice if you stuck around for a while.

To me, a truly Jewish state would be one that simply reflected Jewish values, as opposed to exisiting under Jewish political hegemony.

But in the paragraph above you say you oppose a Jewish state? What Jewish values do you speak of? By offering comfort and support to those that would kill me and you for the crime of being born Jews, you have no right to speak of Jewish values. You bring shame upon us, you are what is referred to as a Betrayer of Israel. You have much to be proud of as a Jew and yet you choose to align yourself with low-life scum, terrorists, mass-murderers of your own people! Why? They want us dead, ALL of us, and that includes you.

I would like to see Israel transformed into something that myself, and hopefully all Jews, could be equally proud of, without the slightest hesitation.

I am proud of Israel, I have a deep, passionate and unconditional love for Israel. I hope you realize that you are being used and that you wake up to the truth before it is too late.

What exactly is wrong with the idea of a JEWISH state that celebrates JEWISH holidays, serves kosher food in public, and treats JUDAISM as the norm rather than a tolerated minority?

Where exactly is one supposed to live in order to feel part of the norm? Brooklyn? Eastern Europe? The Moon?

Or are you suggesting I give up my religion because somehow it is less worthy that YOUR beliefs?

Yes, I did place the note as quoted. And to be honest, I still don't know whether it was a mistake or not.

If you still don't know, you have some serious moral problems.

On a personal level, the intention was genuinely to pray for peace.

You are intellectually dishonest. A prayer for peace goes something like "Dear God, please bring peace to all these people." Not "END THE MOTHERF*CKING OCCUPATION!!!"

The pic I posted of the action to IMC was intended mainly for the leftist activists that serve as IMC's main readership. I honestly didn't think about how others would react, and in retrospect, perhaps I should have.

Because you are a grandstanding lout. Because you don't think for a second how the rest of us would react, because we are irrelevant to your view of the universe as centered on Abe Greenhouse. Because you can't fathom for a second that what the rest of us want is peace, but a peace in which Jewish children can grow up without fear that every bus ride will be their last, and in which "Palestinian" children grow up like normal children, not pawns in an obscene ritual of child sacrifice in which they are trained to run towards tanks with rocks and molotov cocktails while shielding the adults from retaliation with their little bodies. To you and those of your ilk, that is somehow a romantic view. Perhaps because those children are proxies for all your own repressed anger at your parents for imposing rules on you, or being the capitalist tools they are that have provided you with the funds to go on these trips, rather than finishing your educations in the normal four years and becoming productive members of the society you love to undermine and ridicule.

To me, a truly Jewish state would be one that simply reflected Jewish values, as opposed to exisiting under Jewish political hegemony.

And you think this would happen with an islamic arab majority exactly how? Can you give us even one contemporary islamic or arab state that could qualify?

I am genuinely proud to be Jewish, and don't just wear it on my sleeve for political efficacy.

And you demonstrate that exactly how? Asking again the question that someone else asked you, aside from your words, how did you demonstrate your concern for the victims of the bus bombing? Did you visit any of them in hospital? Provide food or other assistance? Sit shiva in solidarity with them? Go to shul and say kaddish?

I've studied Jewish history, my own personal family history, as well as Yiddish, the language spoken by my grandparents. My connection with such things is a point of pride for me; I would like to see Israel transformed into something that myself, and hopefully all Jews, could be equally proud of, without the slightest hesitation.

And apparently learned nothing. And once again, it's all "me me me me me me me." Your parents raised a real Jewish American Prince. I hope they're very proud. And I hope that you are no relation to Dr. Barry Greenhouse, retired from Albany Med, who was my advisor. You discredit him enormously if you are.

Ah, I see Abe posted in the interim.

Yes, I did place the note as quoted. And to be honest, I still don't know whether it was a mistake or not. On a personal level, the intention was genuinely to pray for peace. The pic I posted of the action to IMC was intended mainly for the leftist activists that serve as IMC's main readership. I honestly didn't think about how others would react, and in retrospect, perhaps I should have.

A note angrily calling to "end the @#$%&! occupation!" is hardly what anyone would consider a genuine prayer for peace. It's merely a childish stunt.

As for a photo intended to incite the leftist activists, the question arises: How is demagogy supposed to help this situation? In the language of the left, passion equals effectiveness, but in reality wishing does not make it so. I remember the photo of Rachel Corrie snarling with all the fervor of a cultist, as if the path to eternal bliss or enlightenment is hastened by screaming the loudest. When the chips were down, she didn't turn that ire on those who murder children; she died defending a suicide bomber's legacy.

Abie Baby:

Please tell me of one Arab state where members of a religion other than Islam have full rights and enjoy democracy. In fact, the very terrorists your organization, ISM, supports are the exact Islamofascists who would kill any members of any religion other than Islam that got in their way.

You must be a Peter Jennings wannabe looking for his Hanan Ashrawi. Don't be fooled, young Abe, she's really a guy.

Abe: I understand. How the bleep can your parents in 1980 something name their son Abe. You sound like you should have born in a shtetl near Gdansk in 1885. No wonder you hate the Jewish people so much. If only your parents named you Kyle or Lance.

Abe is fooling himself if he thinks an end to "the Occupation" will change anything. After all, by the time Barak made his offer at Camp David over 90% of Palestinians lived in PA controlled territory. Before 1967, indeed before 1948, Arabs directed indiscriminate violence against Jews. "Occupation" is a pretext and an excuse, not a cause. Should "occupation" end, there would still be Jewish subversion, or Jewish hooliganism, or endless Jewish conspiracies against Palestinians to be addressed by violence as the first resort. There will be no end to the excuses for Jew killing. The incitement is deeply seeded in a culture that sees the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a source of real knowledge and whose preachers describe Jews as descended from apes and pigs.

Abe believes that the Palestinians desire to live in peaceful coexistence with their neighbors on terms of mutual respect and tolerance. If he were right, the conflict could have been resolved as early as 1947. Israel, after all, accepted partition while the Arabs massed their armies and attacked. The Arabs are in the habit of starting wars and losing them then playing the victim to the applause of Abe and his fellow travellers.

If Palestinians were to renounce violence they could live in peace and have a state of their own in short order. If the Israelis were to renounce violence they would be slaughtered by Arabs who believed they were doing Allah's will and the work of the nation. Abe and his ilk are deeply, dangerously naive if they believe what they are saying.

Abe, you fatuous, self-centered tool, this is what you are supporting.

Do yourself and the rest of the world a favor and educate yourself. Start with the links below. Come back and explain to us how your little utopia would survive given historical precedent for the way Jews and Christians are treated by a muslim arab majority, especially in contemporary muslim countries. For that matter, how would even a two state solution be workable, since it has been rejected by the arabs since the second partitionment in 1947 (the first being the creation of Judenrein Jordan out of the British Mandate land)?

[Link: jewishinternetassociation.org...]
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]
[Link: www.fordham.edu...]
[Link: www.yale.edu...]
[Link: 216.239.53.100...]

Especially while Arafat still draws breath?
[Link: www.abrahamic-faith.com...]

Second-to-last link is broken, but try these:
[Link: notendur.centrum.is...]
[Link: notendur.centrum.is...]
[Link: notendur.centrum.is...]
[Link: notendur.centrum.is...]
[Link: notendur.centrum.is...]

This is the origin of the "Palestinian" "cultural" heritage.

Abe writes:

I honestly didn't think about how others would react...

Well, that's not much of a surprise.

Two quick questions:

1) How many rallies have you attended to stop the incitement and indoctrination of Palestinian Arab children to hate and murder Jews?

[Link: www.strangecosmos.com...]

[Link: www.operationsick.com...]

2) How many rallies have you attended to demand Arafat's "security forces" deal with Hamas and other terrorist groups??
 

I think I understand Abe...he is a great supporter of the ISM 'cause that is the only place he is able to get a piece of ass. How else could a professed Jew be such an asshole?

Abe,

This is all really intersting and I'm absolutely enthralled that people want to get to the "root cause" of the terrorism which, it seems to them, means the "occupation".

How about, instead, you get to the "root cause" of the "occupation" which means, to me, Arab pogroms and outright support and aid to the Nazis to have done what they did? How about that for a "root cause"? When people who "protest" "root causes" for the sake of "peace" will actually get to the problem at hand, then I"ll actually start to take them seriously. Until then...I just couldn't care what the hell their opinion is all about, or where their point of view is coming from. Nazis and Kapos had points of view too, and they were still dead wrong.

I hope I don't have to argue that point with anyone.

The money quote of Abe's missive is this:

I support a two state solution as the most immediate (emphasis mine) way to resolve the conflict. I would like to see these two states eventually merge into a single, fully democratic, and secular state.

The rest is window dressing.

Abe's ideas are in perfect synch with an infamous plan to establish a foothold near Israeli borders and gradually supplant Israel with Arab-controlled state 'from the river to the sea'. At this point any dialog with Abe and his group is meaningless.

Hi Abe. Thanks for coming out to LGF. All too often this board reads like a blog devoted to eridacting Muslims and commiting widespread acts of genocide in the Middle East.

I'm just going to address some of the more historical issues here.

#171 Rudy

You asked for one example of when Israel has targetted a noncombatant. I can think of several, and easily. The 1982 War was characterized by attacks on Palestinian-inhabited areas of Lebanon. Shelling of urban areas such as West Beirut no doubt had an overwhelmingly civilian target. Some quotes: MK Ya'aykov Meridor, regarding Palestinians in Lebanon "You must drive them East, towards Syria...and not let them return." An American nurse working in Beirut said Israel "dropped bombs on everything, including hospitals, orphanages and, in one case, a school bus carrying 35 young schoolgirls who were traveling on an open road." A US Navy commander who was there to remove UXO said "we found five bombs in an orphanage with about 45 cluster bombs in the front yard. We were called there after five children were injured or killed." A UN report estimated 13,500 homes were "severely damaged" - not counting the homes in Palestinian areas. All of these quotes and citations come from Chomksy's book Fateful Triangle, the chapter "Peace for Galilee." I know Chomsky isn't loved here, but he is no liar.

#182 zulu

You suggest that the AFP cameraman should be punished. What for? Firstly, as a journalist, he is only expected to document what is going on and not participate. More importantly, he witnessed militants preparing to resist an Israeli incursion into Rafah. Who lives in Rafah? Do they not have the right to self defense? When the IDF comes in shooting to Rafah, resistance to the incursion is not terrorism. In this case, the Palestinians were not initating hostilities in Rafah, they were simply preparing to fight a *combatant* force.

#188 Paul

The 1929 riots (including the killings in Hebron) as well as the other incidents in the Yishuv implicated the indigenous people (now called Palestinians) no more or less than it did the Zionists (now Israelis). The total death toll for the 1929 riots was 250 (Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Klausner, page 52) with 133 Jews among them (WZO, us-israel, anywhere, really). The riots were characterized by armed thugs terrorizing civilians.

This brings me to a point: fighting in this region has been characterized by despicable targetting of civilians. Indeed, because this is a conflict started with large movements and transfers of (considerably) civilian populations, it's not very surprising, but it is disgusting. To think that Israel has not targetted Arab civilians or vice versa is incorrect. Terribly, terribly incorrect.

#220 Jeff B.

Abe did speak of having two states as a jumping board to one state. That's a very reasoned point of view that I can understand fully. There needs to be an atmosphere of reconciliation for people to survive in peace in a single state: or two states. Neither will bring peace unless both peoples are committed to coexisting peacefully, something which really could never have been tried before (the Zionist requirement of immigration to change the demographic status quo would not have been acceptable in the past) and needs to be tried now. It is my belief that the most important thing that happens now is reconciliation, which includes ending attacks (*especially* those which bring harm to civilians) but also learning and living together. That's my concern about the wall: not that it would keep potential enemies out, but that it would keep potential friends apart.

Using a two state plan as a jumping board to one state enables both sides to negotiate to work out an EU-like federation that would eventually grow into some sort of national system for everyone. It's reasonable. Not sure if it will work, but the alternative that we're rapidly approaching due to de facto Israeli annexation of the territories is a one state solution immediately. Your arguments about an Arab lack of tolerance for other cultures, btw, is very similar to the anti-semitic garbage you'll hear from the Arab extremists about Jews being unable to live in peace with non-Jews.

Prove them wrong.

#223
Nothing is wrong with that at all. Social institutions are also separate from the state and really can't be mandated. People should all be allowed to practice and observe freely and proudly their religions. But that applies to Palestinians as well. The land is home to two peoples and both sides need to realize that.

bugg (#235),

The 1982 ... 1929...

That's the best you can do?

Pathetic.

People please-

Abe does not care. By his two posts he is a Jew hating Jew. It is not an ad hominem but a statement of truth. Just like I am a libertarian and other people are democrats.

How else can he perpetuate the propaganda he spreads after all the evidence that mommydoc has so nicely quoted and put at out disposal.

In life, poker, markets...their is always a tell. Politicians will say, "I am doing this for the children" for example. Just as Rush Limbaugh is a right-wing republican, Abe is a Jew hating Jew. A very dangerous person indeed.

What he does not realize is even though he is fighting for the Palistenians in their quest to drive all Jews to the Sea, he is still a Jew thus he must die. I am not advocating that, I am just quoting the Muslim clerics.

Liberty and Freedom are neither free or easy. Truth is a double edge sword. Abe cares about neither. God bless the Jews( and He does, I saw a rainbow) and God Bless You and the USA.

Abe,

One day you will be ashamed. You will remember and wonder how you could have done that. Just remember when that does happen - you will have no sympathy from anybody at all.

Joe.

PS... Next time stuff the note up your butt.

First of all, BUGG, there is no such thing as an indiginous "Palistinian." The term was wholly created by the British to define a region of Trans-Jordan. Second of all, BUGG, I will believe the IslamoFascists want to live in peace with non Islamists the day that the Saudi Entity on the Arabian peninsula doesn't ban the practice of all non-islamic faiths. Do you know, BUGG, that it is against the law to be a jew in the Saudi Entity? Stop... Spare me the preaching about how bad Isreal is and how we can trust the Islamist, when they ban all faiths and all beliefs that they consider Infidel... which is ALL faiths and beliefs that are non Islamist. Now, you can say that I am a racist or that I want to see Islam washed from the planet, but just prove me wrong. How many jews live and thrive in Saudi controlled Arabia? ZERO. How many Arabs live and thrive in Jewish controlled Trans-Jordan? Countless.

R.

Israeli Jews already have a peace movement. They don't need foreigners to mobilize sentiment -- especially foreigners who anger the Israeli majority by desecrating the Western Wall and equating terror attacks aimed at civilians with a "cycle" of violence.

What would be enormously helpful -- and might well take foreign assistance -- would be the development of a Palestinian peace movement that would mobilize non-suicidal, non-homicidal Palestinians. If Palestinians had a credible peace movement, it would strengthen Israeli doves. "Land for peace" works only if Israelis believe they'll get peace.

Sadly, I think Palestinians advocating a peaceful settlement would be murdered. But perhaps foreigners could help get such a movement off the ground. It would be an act of great courage.

Amazing bugg, who you claimed that you were going to provide examples of the IDF targeting civilians ... and then failed completely.

That there were civilians in the combat zone of operations in Lebanon was because the PLO has long deliberately mixed its combatants with civilians ( this is a war crime by the way - one that people like you regularly fail to condemn ). The PLO's contempt for the laws of warfare is no surprise after all - the PLO was responsible for tens of thousands of deliberate murders of civilians during the Lebanon civil war in the '70's and '80's.

BTW, Chomsky is a proven liar - repeatedly. From his recent 911 book to his "After the Cataclysm" where he denies the reality of the Cambodian genocide.

Lastly, resistance to IDF operations can be a war crime on the part of the Palestinians if they don't adhere to the rules of war - which it has been shown they do not.

Bugg:

I know Chomsky isn't loved here, but he is no liar.

Noam Chomsky's not only intellectually dishonest and disingenous, he's an outright liar. When I broguht up the subject of his involvement in the Faurisson Affair he denied having prefaced his book, which he did even though he had not inteded to.

[Me:] It is interesting that you should bring up this topic, since many in the pro-Israeli camp often point to alleged charges of antisemitism on your part--namely, by your active involvement in the revisionist movement.

[NC:] That is a complete fabrication. If you don't know it, you should.

[Me:] They describe you as a self-hating Jew who has willfully prefaced a book by Robert Faurisson, himself --so I'm told-- a Holocaust denier along the lines of David Irving and others who claim to be equally serious historians.

[NC:] That is a pure lie. I never "willfully prefaced" a book by Faurisson, or "prefaced" one at all.

And don't forget, that Chomskyan classic:

[Me:] While I must admit to some prejudice of my own against historic revisionism,

[NC:] "prejudice"? I'm surprised and shocked. It is sheer outrageous nonsense.

[Me:] what really strikes me in this case is not that you should make an eloquent job of defending freedom of speech as such, but that should not consider Robert Faurisson's remarks questionning the Holocaust (please, correct me if I'm wrong) as outright antisemitic propaganda in the first place. Indeed, you are quoted as authoring the following excerpt:

"I see no anti-Semitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers or even denial of the Holocaust. Nor would there be anti-Semitic implications, per se, in the claim that the Holocaust (whether one believes it took place or not) is being exploited, viciously so, by apologists for Israeli repression and violence. I see no hint of anti-Semitic implications in Faurisson's work."

[NC:] The "excerpt" has nothing whatsoever to do with Faurisson. It was excerpted, extremely dishonestly, from a personal letter which was about quite abstract issues. Furthermore, the person who excerpted and published it surely agrees with the comment, which is the reason why he excised the context. To add it: if a person denies the existence of gas chambers at Dachau and believes that the Nazis slaughtered the Jews in some other way, that is not anti-Semitic, obviously -- or you'd have to call the most highly-respected Holocaust historians anti-Semitic. If some peasant from Mongolia never heard of the Holocaust, and when told about it, refused to believe it because it is too horrendous, that is not anti-Semitic. Furthermore, there are genuine Holocaust deniers who are highly respected, and never accused of racism -- rightly. E.g., the well-known Zionist writer Edward Alexander, who wrote in the journal of the American Jewish Congress that the Holocaust is an "exploded myth" -- referring to Roma (Gypsies), who the Nazis treated very much as they did the Jews. We do not conclude that he is a Nazi or an anti-Roma racist; rather that he doesn't know what he is talking about. And it is all too easy to continue. I gave many other examples. As for the implications of Faurisson's work, at the time no one claimed that it was anti-Semitic, at least on any credible grounds. That includes, for example, Pierre Vidal-Naquet, the most famous of his French critics. In fact, the French Court that sentenced him several years later did not accuse him of anti-Semitism, only of "allowing others" to use his writings for "nefarious ends" -- a remarkable charge, which would be deeply offensive to anyone who has the remotest conception of democracy and freedom. What he may or may not be is irrelevant. I was referring to the specific charges that had been brought against him by his most severe and knowledgeable critics, which amounted to no charge of anti-Semitism, as you can easily determine -- assuming that facts matter.

[Me:] Your stance on the so-called 'Faurisson Affair' seems to have nurtured a deep ressentment among world Jewry,

[NC:] That's untrue. What has nurtured resentment is lies about it, of the kind you repeat.

[Me:] I think because you seem to imply that you do not believe the Holocaust ever took place and that plays in the hands of hate groups such as the 'Friends of Oswald Mosley'.

[NC:] That is sheer lying, of the most despicable sort. And it is easy to demonstrate, from my earliest political writings 35 years ago until today, which opens by a sharp condemnation of Holocaust revisionism -- which, at the time, was barely known.

[Me:] To some extent, you, Noam Chomsky, lend these people a credibility they would not have otherwise.

[NC:] That is a standard view among people committed to Nazi and Stalinist doctrine. For example, when the ACLU supports free speech for the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis (as does the Supreme Court, rightly), and even supports marches by neo-Nazi groups through Jewish neighborhoods (Skokie Illinois, to mention a famous case), people who are deeply committed to the doctrines of Goebbels and Stalin charge them with support for Nazis. If that is your position, then say so honestly. If it is not, then retract with apologies.

It is, precisely, because facts matter why I never apologized to him.

bugg (#235)

More importantly, he witnessed militants preparing to resist an Israeli incursion into Rafah.

They're wearing belts with bombs in them to go and blow themselves up amongst innocent mothers and children and you're defending them!? You're scum.

Fuck you. You make me ill.

Bugg writes:

I know Chomsky isn't loved here, but he is no liar.

Absolutely hysterical.

And there was no genocide in Cambodia either.

More on Chomsky the liar:

[Link: www.newcriterion.com...]
 

Not only is Chomsky an unrepentant liar, but even his theories on linguistics have been discredited, which is why he had to reinvent a new "academic" career.

Abie Baby,

So you support a single state, not dominated by any particular religion. Like it or not, the United States has achieved as close to that vision as we're likely to see on this Earth, Ten Commandments monument notwithstanding. America has as many mosques and islamic communities as their numbers would lead them to expect. It hasn't saved us from the hatred of the islamic extremists, many of whom state publicly that they hope to establish the U.S. as a muslim state, complete with amputations and beheadings.

Let me ask you to examine this question: What do your palestinian handlers think about your vision of a state not dominated by the Jewish or islamic religions? Not what they tell you, what they actually think? Whatever they say to your face, I suspect that they would only avail themselves of that freedom to practice religion to use their numbers to bring all others into submission with the dictates of islam. I suspect that you know this, so my question to you is rhetorical. Don't answer it, because nobody on this blog will believe you if you deny it.

Just think about this: When you have flattened the state of Israel and they come to you and say, "You next, Jew Boy," where will you stand, Israel being flat? (to misquote Thomas More, possibly in a way he himself wouldn't agree with)

Like it or not, only in a state deeply committed to opposing terrorism are you likely to be safe. You, I don't care about. If you want to lie down underneath earthmoving equipment you have that choice. The babies and their families who have been massacred by your friends weren't offered the option.

And Buggsy, #182, I find it difficult to believe that the palestinian "militants" planting the bombs to "resist an incursion by combatants" stuck around to make sure no busload of tourists were obliterated. Did the photographer ask them or stick around to warn the innocents?

And Joanne Jacobs, I think that not only would moderate peaceable palestinians be murdered, but they already have been in sufficient numbers to convince others to reconsider. I have no sympathy for that, though. In a documentary about the holocaust a surviving german who had been involved in shooting people into trenches said, "What could we do? We weren't heroes, if we had refused we would have been shot too." Here it is straight: Sometimes the choice is made for you. Sometimes you don't get three options, hero, innocent, or evildoer. Given the choice between the first and the last, an innocent must choose to fight evil, even if it brings about their death. Any other choice is evil. These palestinians for peace, whoever and wherever they are, must publicly protest the terrorists, and pray that the world will run out of terrorists before it runs out of innocents.

Its truly amazing. People like Buggs call a one state solution that will destroy the Jewish people in Israel progress while they call the American reconstruction of Iraq an occupation.

The reconstruction of Iraq by America is designed to create a one-state solution where Moslems can live in peace among themselves but of course people like Buggs say thats not true. Its all about oil.

In these people's minds progress is destruction. Destruction is progress.

Can Buggs and Abe Greenhouse leave an essay where they describe their parents parenting techniques? I'd like to write a bestseller on parental mistakes to avoid.

Abe,

Arabs currently hold ten (10) seats in the Knesset. How many Jews sit on the governing board of the Palestinian Authority?

LeahLips

By the way, "bugg" is posting his pro-Palestinian propaganda and Chomskyisms from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh Ohio.

If Abe really opposes all states which espouse one particular religion, why isn't he protesting any of the 22 Arab Islamic states? Or maybe he should be in Vienna protesting the fact that Austria is officially a Catholic country.

No, he is too busy being a useful idiot for Palestinian terrorists whose self-avowed goal is to remove all Jews from the Middle East entirely or maybe just to allow those who are not descended from European Jews to stay under Muslim's benign hegemony as dhimmies. Read Hamas's charter, Abe. It will tell you all you need to know about the Palestinians' intentions.

It is not acceptable to Muslims to have the despised Jews rule over them in even one square inch of what they believe to be Muslim land.

As for the "occupation," what was your excuse for all of the terrorist attacks before 1967 or after Oslo? There was no "occupation" then, but there were incessant attacks on Israel.

And the note that our clever Abe left at the Kotel - his inability to grasp the offensiveness of that little stunt speaks volumes for his alleged pride in his Jewishness. Why doesn't he leave a note at al Aqsa saying "Stop the motherf***ing terrorism"? Oh, I forgot, Jews aren't allowed at al Aqsa.

The worst I can wish Abe is that 20 years from now he will be consumed by guilt and self-reproach for his betrayal of his people and his support of those who would destroy them.

Abe, you are an utter disgrace. You should convert to Islam and spare the Jews the shame of your actions.

Charles, I think by divulging my location you've not only been rude and unprofessional, but demonstrated your difficulty with geography.

Oh, I'm sorry, "bugg" -- I was still thinking of our last terrorist supporter to post at LGF, Maryam, who was posting from Ohio. Please accept my sincere apologies for mislocating you. I should have said, Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, of course.

bugg (#251)

Rude? A little rich, no?

Abe is a liar. In his earlier post, #216, he states

"I support a two state solution as the most immediate way to resolve the conflict. I would like to see these two states eventually merge into a single, fully democratic, and secular state. "

But please see his final post to this site: [Link: newjersey.indymedia.org...]

In which a fellow israeli-hater, "Deicide" berates him for making a similar statement to a newspaper. This is Abe's response:

"Deicide, in response to your concern, I was repeatedly asked the standard question "do you support Israel's right to exist", and my response was "I believe Israel has as much right to exist as many other state", verbatim. As an anarchist, I believe that NO state has a right to exist - but this concept would require too much space to explain, and would distract from the main themes of the article."

Abe is a disengenuous liar, who fits his lies to his perceived audience. He is about as trustworthy as Arafat, which may not be a coincidence. BTW, in the same page Abe's closed minded friends (or Abe himself, under different handles) tries to guess who I am, to stifle the debate, and suggests that this information be used to "tell your boss at Rogers just what you do with your time at work." Surely Abe deserves similar attention.

abe

when you wake up, which i sincerely feel you will, a million years of service to the truth you are right now blind to, will not free your heart from the damage and destruction you are right now doing.

Read Judenrat by Isaiah trunk. Abe reminds me of a small-scale Rumkowski, a Jew whoring for mass murderers.

1- There were Arab attacks on Israel when there was no occupation or a single Israeli in the West Bank and Gaza for 19 years.

2- Arafat refused the end of occupation by peaceful means in 2000.

3 - Every time Israel left some West Bank areas after 1993 (Oslo), there were more attacks.

4- The thought that 'If he occupation was ended there would be peace' is a demented delusion.

Those of us on/in the right (aptly named) should give up on attempts to enlighten those that support murderers. It wouldn't have worked with Hitler, and it won't work with them. We should be content in the knowledge that when push comes to shove the lame brains are toast.