Palestinian leaders said the killing of Ismail Abu Shanab... ruined an imminent campaign against militants by Palestinian security forces that would have included arrests and weapons roundups.

Why?

Why won't anyone ask them to explain why killing Shanab ruined this campaign? What possible connection can there be between killing Shanab and suspending a campaign against Hamas?!?!?!

Stop using those sophisticated technologies to kill only the target.

Kill Em All.

James....why do you ask why?

you must be islamaphobe racist

:-P

Israel should napalm one of those Hamas rallies. That'll learn 'em. And if it doesn't, at least a couple of thousand terrorists will be killed.

...if new Palestinian suicide attacks occur...

Why wait for more attacks?

Israel's response should already have been 50 times greater than blowing up one terrorist leader in a car...
 

"All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab."

Yess!! That's the best news I've read all week.

Why won't anyone ask them to explain why killing Shanab ruined this campaign? What possible connection can there be between killing Shanab and suspending a campaign against Hamas?!?!?!

I know. How is it that every time Israeli begins defensive attacks, they always happen just as the PA was almost just about to begin really cracking down on the terrorists? What an amazing coincidence... what a consistently amazing series of the same coincidence.

#3 ploome

you must be islamaphobe racist

Not a chance, hon. I too am a Semite, you see.

;-)

My wife compares this tactic to that of a teenage boy teasing his sister:

"I was JUST ABOUT to drive you to your friend's house, but since you called me a bastard, now I'm not going to do it."

It would be funny if it wasn't so disgusting.

Israel to target more Pal leaders? Oooh, sooo scary!!!

Right, until the next "truce". Whatever. The problem is that you Israelis never get the job DONE. Whenever I hear an Israeli leader make a threat, I know the exact opposite is true. They're all hat and no cattle.

Why don't you guys stop pussyfooting around and GET THE JOB DONE ALREADY.

If anyone wants some insight into this childish culture read Leon Uris' The Haj.

"All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab."

Meaning, reduced to a mass of charred protoplasm? Devilspeed!

Dang it, they were ready to crack down on the "militants" .
Today the IDF missed the opportunity to get rid of that scum, Rantisi. Where are the Apaches and F16 s when you need them?

I will be following the news and Web sites intently this weekend hoping to see massive destruction of Palistinian skum by the IDF. I agree with #4, Naplam at a large rally would be a great start.

Several high ranking Israeli military officials said on condition of anonymity that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders if new Palestinian suicide attacks occur and Palestinian police forces make no efforts to arrest extremists.

That's two too many conditions for me. They've done far, far more than enough. Who in their right mind needs to wait for "new Palestinian suicide attacks to occur?" ESPECIALLY when Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, etc. haev already promised that they will?

Also, can't the alleged, long awaited Palestinian response be IN ADDITION TO any Israeli response? Of course not. For that to happen, the Palestinians would have to plan to actually do something.

"All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab."

Finally, an area of agreement!!! All of us who support Israel would like to see all of you in Hamas from top to bottom become just like Abu Shanab.

Maybe we can get them at the next "target rich environment" summit, eh charles?

#8 James:

I have actually had dialogue (well, OK, it more like his uneducated sputtering at my lethal vituperative skills) with a Morlock who insists that the JOOOOZ have perverted all the dictionaries - co-opted the editors, etc. - to change the meaning of "anti-Semite" so it plays to our advantage. I kid you not.

Debka is actually reporting that Dahlan told Wolf he could not ake on Hamas at the moment becasue his men 'lacked vehicles'. He then proceeded to hurl curses at Bush. wolf had to tell him it wasn't to smart to curse the only american pres who ever supported a pal state.

Why does Bush support a pal state, anyway?

Isn't that the quivalent of creating a state so that nazis and otehr enemies of everything we stand for can have a homeland?

Whoops. I forgot the Saudi puppetmasters.

In a word "BULLSHIT"

What's funnier then the media eating it up is that none of their audience believes it for a second -- more heros in their own minds. Just like a Liberal "we know what is best for you simletons"

White Patronizing Paternilization to the last breath.

The New White Racists are "Liberals" -- they know what is best for those "simple" types since their so comlex with their mocha chinos and gap cargo pants.

Real hippies support democracy, freedom, independence, freedom of religion, peace, civilization, art, culture, love, goodness, truth, honesty not the Left or "Liberals" as defined by those college neo-nazis today.

Quite interesting though.

#17 Gryphon

Sadly I know all about that. I was parodying those jerks.

I will be following the news and Web sites intently this weekend hoping to see massive destruction of Palistinian skum by the IDF.

hahaha! that's a good one. What planet are you living on.

"All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab."

Good. The arrangements are being put in place.

I guess that anytime in the next millennium might qualify as imminent in Splodeydopia

Let's see:

If Israel acts against terrorists, it prevents the PA from acting against [other] terrorists.

If Israel doesn't act against terrorists, it has to make concessions so the PA will have "public support" to act against terrorists.

If Israel makes concessions, the concessions aren't enough.

If Israel makes huge, unilteral concessions (like Barak at Camp David), the Palestinians have been "backed into a corner" and have no choice but to start a new Intifadeh.

If this is so obvious to me (and I think to most of us here), why isn't it obvious to Powell, Bush, etc?

#21 James:

I was parodying those jerks.

Oh, I knew that - I wasn't trying to imply anything else. And I've been hearing the old "Arabs are Semites too" canard for years - but it was just a few months ago that I first heard the "Jews have subverted the dictionaries" idiocy.

All we are saying...

Is give war a chance!

Charles: Thanks!

that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders if new Palestinian suicide attacks occur and Palestinian police forces make no efforts to arrest extremists.

Get rid of the if, get on with the plans. Seriously, this is what's so frustrating sometimes about Sharon. Just do it already.

Hamas will strike back, no matter what the PA does (which will be nothing). PIJ and a-AqMB will do the same. We all know it's going to happen. So there's no reason to stop going after their leadership.

For the last 3 years, we have been hearing how the PA is just about to do something, when Israeli action - several hundred miles away - or the fence, the settlements, the checkpoints, just magically prevents them from doing it.

It is a sick joke. Just the latest straw man.

The way I heard the story, though, there were going to be more targeted killings if no "action" is taken in 24 hours. This, however, gives them the chance to put people in "protective custody," as they used to do before. Better to just kill them and kill them now, starting with the Fish.

Fuck it. Kill 'em all now. The world is not going to be less tolerant of Israel anytime soon. Better to do it in one big push than to dribble it out.

And cap fucking Arafat, please. Or somebody buy me a plane ticket and I will fucking do it...

Wouldn't carpetbombing the savages during their jihad parades be an effective way of weeding out the cancer?

BC,

Because their priorites are all screwy.

They are not thinking morally or in terms of justice instead in terms of multilateral diplomacy and billions of oil dollars.

Re: #10

While the harm done by the White Tent cannot be underestimated, Israel is not entirely blameless for the current catastrophe. The Oslo would have never come about without the delusional senile megalomaniac Peres and the majority of Israeli public who bought into the "Piss Now", "Land for Piss" etc. bullshit.

Some say that the road to Olso began at Yamit. While it was undoubtedly a milestone on that road, I would pick another timepoint as the beginning of surrender: 1967, ironically enough. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory (although few realized it at the time), Moshe Dayan gives up the Temple Mount.

Har Habayit LO B'yadeinu. Oslo is merely an outgrowth of that fact.

The day before the massacre in Jerusalem, the PLO refused to act against Hamas. The day of the massacre, the PLO refused to act against Hamas. The day after the massacre, the PLO refused to act against Hamas. Yep, cut-and-dried, it's the fault of the J-E-W-S.

And what is this shit about "If you slaughter more of our people, without taking any actions against the terrorists, we'll take out another lone terrorist leader?" Utterly ridiculous. And what qualifies for "a partner for peace?" Confiscating one crappy pistol? Arresting one Hamas tool that no one cared about anyway? Arresting terrorists and putting them in PLO jails to be sprung loose within a year?

Heard a paper in Israel printed a list of terrorist playing cards. Now that's the way to go. Simply tell the press that Israel is helping Abbas perform his requirements in the road map. Also, issue arrest warrants for all the terror leaders. Make it painfully clear that they are welcome to surrender themselves to the authorities, so that force will not be required to neutralize the threat they pose.

NRO and New York City Mayor Bloomberg share my sentiments -- it's time for Israel's leadership to lead:

National Review:

ISRAEL MUST GO IT ALONE

It's time for Ariel Sharon to do the unthinkable. It's time for him to tell President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell that he will do whatever he must to save the lives of Israeli babies, including, if necessary, the toppling of the terrorist regimes in Iran and Syria that are waging war against Israel through their Palestinian surrogates.

It's time for Prime Minister Sharon to look President Bush in his eyes--leader to leader--and tell him that the lives of his citizens are every bit as precious as the lives of American citizens, and that the perpetuation of a double standard, where the U.S. practices preemption and Israel is forced to practice restraint, is no longer acceptable. It's time for Sharon to tell Bush that he, as President of the United States, wouldn't tolerate the almost daily massacre of American babies, and he won't tolerate the massacre of Jewish babies, either. They're all God's children.

It's time for Sharon to look Powell in his eyes--former general to former general--and tell him that the national security of his nation is every bit as important as the national security of the United States or any other sovereign, democratic state. And that Israel will not surrender any more of its land in exchange for false promises of peace. Indeed, Sharon should challenge Powell to help hundreds of thousands of Jews reclaim land throughout Europe that was stolen from them during the Holocaust, and stolen by Arab regimes over the last 50 years.

It's time for Sharon to tell his own people that Israel's very survival is in doubt unless they are prepared to go it alone. And that means a willingness to risk the loss of substantial financial and military support from the United States, which has been used by successive American administrations to bully Israel into capitulation.

It's time for Sharon to accept the unfortunate fact that the last president to act as a true friend to Israel was Richard Nixon. And that despite all the representations that the U.S. will ensure Israel's security, the fact is that U.S. policy--has made Israel less secure and less capable of defending itself.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

New York City Mayor Bloomberg:

The New York Times
August 22, 2003

Bloomberg to Visit Jerusalem to Support Bombing Victims

In a news conference afterward, Mr. Bloomberg joined in. He said, "You can't let somebody start to bomb you or shoot you and then give up everything that they want in return for them to stop. They stop terrorism, then you talk. They don't stop, you hit back and you hit back with everything you have and as hard as you can repeatedly. And if you don't do that, shame on you."

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

#30 andrew:

That looks like just about the only option left.

I saw an argument between Mr Pol (Caton?) and another poster a couple of days ago about the meaning of the word "indiscriminate." I thought it was a mere dispute about semantics. But I was wrong.

It's obvious to me that the Mohammedans understand the meaning of the word very, very well. It is we of the Judeo-Christian West who do not. Or have forgotten it since Nagasaki.

They don't understand our concept of justice blended with mercy? Maybe it's time they had more of the former in order to appreciate the latter.

Until the Mohammedans see our mercy as something other than weakness, then what option do we have?

Model4

Everything is the fault of the Jews.

From stolen Egyptian kitchen utensils to the 'root causes' of WWI to the poisoning of European wells in the 15th century to the quick rise of Fox News to topple CNN.

I get it.

As long as there are Jews to blame, they will be blamed.

And when all of the Jews are killed in the next Holocaust and the world is still upside down, 'secret' Jews will be hunted and blamed for the world's ills.

Get it?

These are President Bush's remarks on June 24, 2002 outlining preconditions for American support of a Palestinian state. None of these conditions have been met. So why would we still support such a state?

And are we really to believe that after 14 months of inaction, the Palestinian Authority was finally just about to act on that very evening of the day the Israelis took their action?

President Bush should declare that the hopes he expressed in this speech are no longer possible.

Bush's 6-24-2002 speech

AG in Houston,

Its known as scapegoating.

Jews are the worlds most widely persecuted and smallest minority religion, longest-running, oldest, first-to-blame, scapegoats for whatever ails ya.

And the "Liberals", ahem I mean collegiate neo-nazis, love to target Jews -- with so many of them being Jews it is very reminiscient of communism and even some nazism.

Several high ranking Israeli military officials said on condition of anonymity that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders if new Palestinian suicide attacks occur and Palestinian police forces make no efforts to arrest extremists.

Should read: Several high ranking Israeli military officials said out loud that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders before new Palestinian suicide attacks occur because Palestinian police forces make no efforts to arrest extremists.

They should be building that fence on the banks of the Jordan, after uniting the "Palestinian" Arabs with their brothers on the other side in TransJordan. That is the only road map to peace.

Montaigne's Cat,

Don't you get it?

It is not about meeting any goals it is about giving the terrorists what they demand.

Bush is selling us all out and thwarting the war on terror by supporting these same terrorists that he vowed to us all he would fight

The Crowley Roadmap for Peace

Step 1. "All of us in Hamas from top to bottom are looking to become like Abu Shanab."
Grant wish. Rinse. Repeat.

Agreed! I can't believe that I am agreeing with a CAT! :)

Arafat needs to be dealt with.

What would happen if indited Arafat and then went in and snatched him and brought him back to the states for trial?

Really, I wonder what would happen?

We all know he is the linchpin of ME terrorism.

18 Maine's Michael

The only rational reason for Bush to support a Pali state is so that Israel can declare all-out war and conquer it.

That's not the real reason, of course, but it's the only one that makes any sense.

If Israel was serious about getting the top Hamas men, they would start raiding every orphanage, day care center, and hospital in Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. Where else do you think the brave Arab warriors would be congregating?

Wow! I sure screwed that one up

One more time:

#38 - Agreed! I can't believe that I am agreeing with a CAT! :)

Arafat needs to be dealt with, NOW!

What would happen if we indicted Arafat, went in and snatched him and brought him back to the states for trial?

Really, I wonder what would happen? What could anybody do about that?

We all know he is the linchpin of ME terrorism.

#19 Michael Glazer

Real hippies support democracy, freedom, independence, freedom of religion, peace, civilization, art, culture, love, goodness, truth, honesty not the Left or "Liberals" as defined by those college neo-nazis today.

Not to disagree with the substance of your post at all. Just wanted to say,

I was a real hippie once. The things you mention here were and are all very important, but I vaguely remember the most important thing to me and all mine way back then was getting the premium bud and enough gas money to get down to the river, and back. We payed lip service to all these ideas you list, we payed hard attention and gave vastly more effort to finding, getting in and staying in 'the scene'.

That was my experience, dont mean to imply my experience was representative of the hippie experience overall.

#33 Q -

Since you bring it up, I actually think Israel's mistake in the years after 1967 was in not thinking hard enough about the end-game. Sure, the country was surrounded by hostile enemies, but they should have realized then what most Israelis (I think) realize now: the incompatibility of the three goals of Israel's being a Jewish state, a democratic state, and in possession of the West Bank & Gaza.

Assuming they preferred the first two of these goals, they could have paved the way for eventually relinquishing the third, by:
1. Annexing the most important bits, viz the rest of Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley, the Latrun area, and the western edges of Judea & Samaria. There would have been some diplomatic bellyaching, but if things were otherwise quiet this would have eventually gained international acceptance.
2. Offering (secretly) to give the rest back to Egypt and Jordan, provided they stay demilitarized, with multilateral observers, monitors at the borders etc. Easier to demilitarize the territories then, because Israel had full military control.
3. Assuming Jordan & Egypt said no (which they certainly would have, at least at first), give the locals full internal autonomy until they change their minds. As I understand it, at the time these were very traditional societies which were used to making accommodations with whichever Sultan, King, etc happened to be on top. Giving power to the traditional clan elites would have ensured their help in keeping the PLO crazies out.
4. Not establishing indefensible Jewish settlements next to Arab population centers. If some Jews want to live in Hebron or wherever, at the risk of some day becoming citizens of Jordan, and the Arabs sell them the land (but no govt subsidies!), sure they can go ahead.

This is all a historical daydream, of course. Since then there's arisen a new generation intent on murder and self-immolation, and Israel has no choice but to deal them a crushing military defeat before the future status of the territories can be settled. But it's worth thinking about what might have been.

#45 hobgoblin: That, or to pull a Louisiana Purchase after the Jordyptians are stuck in squalor, and no longer pulling in money from vicarious jihadis.

#35 William: Great article from NRO, awesome statement from Bloomberg! He could, of course, make a difference in his own town by demolishing the Times building.

He follows a long line of New York mayors who have made occasional trips to Israel in good times and bad, securing ties with Jews, who make up a significant voting bloc in municipal elections.

They absolutely sicken me.

Michael Glazer

I linked to Bush's speech so that his unambiguous conditions might be heard again. In a discussion, one can now readily quote them, and mention the date on which he said them. He phrased them in the form of an if-then statement. The "if" has not been met, therefore the "then" no longer applies.

By the way, I liked what you said about real hippies in #19.

Rantisi: "...a secret leadership is ready to take over..."

Squirrels, no doubt. Or maybe like Get Smart. Really scary stuff. I know he's really just a kidder and all, but kill him anyway.

There is no way that the Paliban Authority is going to do what the road map obliges them to do in Phase I: "dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure".

There is an old Arab saying: me against my brother; my brother and me against our cousin; me, my brother and our cousin against the stranger. The Paliban Authority is closer to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Aqsa Brigades than it is to the Jews being massacred by the terrorists.

So Israel has to forget about the ridiculous assumption that the Paliban Authority would ever do what the road map requires by dismantling the terrorist capabilities/infrastructure.

Israel has to be the one to dismantle the terrorist capabilities/infrastructure by the only method it has found so far: hunt-n-swat the terrorists, one at a time. It has to be done.

There is a diplomatic/political price that is going to have to be paid, because the terrorist appeasers and supporters are going to diplomatically/politically protect the terrorist operations. The Euros, for example, will support the terrorist operations by trying to hamstring Israel.

It's important to minimize this cost by acting now , in the aftermath of the brutal terrorist attack that massacred about 20 devout bus passengers who finished praying at the Western Wall, including about 6 children murdered, and including about 5 people who were Americans. The longer Israel waits, the more people will forget about the dangers of jihaditerrorism, and the higher the diplomatic/political cost will be.

What is the difference between the 3rd ID rolling into Baghdad to take out a murderous, terror-supporting dictator and the IDF doing the same thing in Rumallah? And why can't the White House and the State Department see that?

19:38 Palestinian wounded by IDF troops in Nablus operation dies from his injuries; all three militants were killed in incident
19:25 Palestinians: Two militants killed, one wounded by IDF troops during operation in West Bank city of Nablus
19:02 IDF troops kill wanted Tanzim militant, wound two others during operation in West Bank city of Nablus

From ha'aretz

{nelson muntz from the simpsons}

Ha ha!

{/nelson muntz from the simpsons}

ZBeeblebrox (#49):

What you say is actually very similar to the Alon Plan. I still maintain that the only thing that will bring real peace is the "repeat of 1948".

Israel seems to be alone in this. I see Canada is supporting the baby killers in a big way--the Liberals have made us into a terrorist swamp. they help to fund murder by muslims.
[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

@18

'Why does Bush support a pal state, anyway?'

Actually You are supporting the palestinians with your tax dollars. And, you weren't asked before he handed over that 20 mil to Arafish.

#48 justdanny (whole damn thing):

Your honesty with yourself and others is one of the reasons I keep coming back here again and again. Keep it up, please. And thanks.

#56 Q -

Good link, thanks. I'd heard generally about the Allon plan but not the details.

And regarding "Land for Piss" delusion: this is how a newly created Jewish National Home was supposed to look ideally. So much given up, with the (entirely predictable) result of hardly any land and no peace at all.

I should think the Palestinians would be supremely happy now that one of their beloved leaders has gone to be with 'Allah' or most likely Satan.

Palestinian leaders said the killing of Ismail Abu Shanab, a top aide to Hamas chief Ahmed Yassin, ruined an imminent campaign against militants by Palestinian security forces that would have included arrests and weapons roundups.

I read this yesterday thinking 'Who could possibly believe this? Who is so blind to history that they would believe such an outright lie?'

Then I remembered that people like that are all over the place, from useful idiots like Dennis Kucinich to uninformed souls who belch out such trite platitudes as, "...but they're only doing it because they don't have any tanks or helicopters."

Several high ranking Israeli military officials said on condition of anonymity that there were plans to kill other top Hamas leaders if new Palestinian suicide attacks occur and Palestinian police forces make no efforts to arrest extremists.

This is what worries me. Whny wait for dead Jews to start killing the bastards? Why give the Hamassholes and their ilk the intiative? If assasinating these SOB's can save lives, why not just do it and stop sitting on your hands. As Lileks said the other day "Never again now means please God not tomorrow."

I hope that the IDF seals off the West Bak this weekend.