Thanks to all who emailed about this outrage, starting a couple of days ago.

Waiter, I'd like a Himmler spritzer and my wife will have the Martin Borman with a squeeze of lime.

But if somebody tried to sell bottles of wine with Ariel Sharon's image, the U.N. Security Council would probably convene in protest.

If I had not seen it here I would have thought it was a send up of the American right, and left. Indeed: what the hell is wrong with Europe?

Charles
Who is Lunardelli? And how do we find out who's buying this stuff?

d LOL! Touche.

It's them fashionable Italians deciding that radical chic has cachet, and the pendulum has swung. No more Red Brigades Port or Stalin Sauterne- now we'll get attention by calling up images of some wimpy dictator who didn't nearly kill as many people as the lefties did when they were on top.

Just more cultural proof that the Euros have completely lost their moorings. If the behavior of the EU in the past two years hasn't convinced you of that yet, wait'll Monday, my friends.

That's when the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN's nuclear "watchdog", convenes in Vienna to deal with Iran's nuke weapons program.
Wanna bet they punt this down the road just long enough for Iran to declare it has nukes?

Gary Bruce I'll bite if you take my bet that Israel sacks Iran's quarterback then intercepts for a TOUCHDOWN!

here's the company it comes from - [Link: www.vinilunardelli.it...]

I need a drink.

As I posted on another thread, I would have expected a longer memory and/or better taste from the Italians. Honestly, the unholy trinity of Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin? What the hell does that have to do with wine, anyway?

I can understand the cachet of Marilyn Merlot (which, BTW, is bloody awful but attractively packaged.)

Zulubaby

I'll second that.

I'd suggest we start a rumor that it's made from the blood of Jews, but that would probably boost sales.

Well, in at least one respect, 1945 was a very good year.

Jeez, do I have to boycott Italy as well?

On a related note:

[Link: www.moeboard.net...]

What the hell is wrong with people? Why does a *winemaker*, an Italian whose nation suffered in WWII, choose as his *first* historical example for his little "history" series, the image of Hitler?

Why?

What the hell was that weird anime?

Perish the thought of boycotting Italy.

This is one asshole, not a country that by and large supports the US.

Not to mention the savage coolness of Silvio Berlusconi.

Its a gimmick - an advertising tool to gain interest in a no-name wine company -- which I am guessing has been extremely successfull.

What was that quote about knowing so little about history that you're doomed to repeat it? Do the Europeans teach a revisionist account of events because they're ashamed to admit that their parents nearly destroyed civilization? Or maybe death and murder are in their blood and they're hoping -we've- forgotten history and they can't wait for the hatin' to begin? What other explanation is there for this glorification of Hell and its agents?

Evariste writes:

I'll bite if you take my bet that Israel sacks Iran's quarterback then intercepts for a TOUCHDOWN!

You're on. What type of wager?

"Fuehrerwein" serve with a good nazi dish such a Chicken Himmler.

First we had the nazi regalia and clothing at those Hong Kong botiques and now this. Are people today totally ahistorical or has pop culture trivialized everything?

Vile as the labels are, after perusing all of them, I suspect that whoever is ultimately responsible for their use is probably some gin-soaked, idiot driven only by a desire to boost sales by ANY means fair or foul.

He couldn't care less about the pain he's causing; controversy sells. Sad, that.

The latter consist of bottles of wine of optimal quality with labels that remind us of the life lives of celebrated personages of Italian and world political history such as Che Guevara, Churcill, Francesco Giuseppe, Gramsci, Hitler, Marx, Mussolini, Napoleon and Sissi. Thanks to this invention, the wine company Alessandro Lunardelli has obtained a lot of attention from the media all over the world both for the originality of the idea and for the quality of the wines. Today approximately half of the bottles of wine produced by the company are dedicated to the to the Historical Series which by now amounts to over 50 different labels, and has become a cult object among the collectors.

Ah. So their defense consists of:
-these guys are celebrated personages!
-this gets us a lot of attention!
-Hitler wine! Collect them all!
I'm sold! You guys are so deep!
Sheesh. That Holocaust keychain girl had a better story than these guys.

Gary Bruce-Beer obviously! Your choice of six pack. My poison is Guinness. Choose wisely.

I am glad someone is there to remind us of the life lives of Hitler and Stalin.

Perish the thought of boycotting Italy.

Of course, AG, Italy has been kinder to Israel than most. It was hyperbole.

But, OT, you will be surprised at the strong anti-Israel left in Italy. Oriana Fellaci wasn't reacting to nothing.

Some digging around their website uncovered the fact that the owner's son came on to revitalize the business. This must be his contribution:

Since 1987 the company Alessandro Lunardelli has completed a major stage of the business development, thanks to the addition to the company of his son Andrea, who is now in charge of administrative direction and marketing. The first signs of the renewal have been the beginning of the commercialisation of the bottled wine in 1990 and the beginning of the production of the bottles of the Historical Series in 1995.

[Link: www.vinilunardelli.it...]

I sent them this email, for all the good it will do:

I am writing to express my disgust at your so-called historical series. I realize that the sensationalism of putting fascist dictators who were mass murderers and genocidal maniacs on labels to sell wine certainly gains attention, but your pathetic lack of morals and ethics is beyond belief.

You dishonor the memories of the six million Jews slaughtered by Hitler, as well as the Nazis’ 6 million other victims and the roughly 21 million innocents slaughtered by Stalin. It is a slap in the faces of those who survived the subhuman torture to which they were subjected at the hands of these bloody dictators. What’s next in your marketing plan? Pol Pot and Idi Amin lines? Perhaps, in time for next September 11, you could come up with labels for each of the 19 hijackers?

If you do not discontinue this practice, I hope your grapes rot on their vines, your vines shrivel from every possible disease, and that all your products turn metallic and bitter to the taste. I hope you end your days poverty-stricken and miserable, because that will be what you deserve, by attempting to make a fortune by aggrandizing murderers. You should be writhing in shame.

Just the thing for entertaining your Mistress in your underground bunker, and then hanging out by the lamp post with your Babushka....

The lunatic fringe is now mainstream. There are many, many fools out there without the sense to be thoroughly embarrassed for buying a bottle wine with Adolf Hitler on it.

What the Hell is Wrong with Europe?

1) Not enough protein in their diet

2) The French

3) Chris Patten

4) ...

Won't it be fun saving the sorry continent again from the "next big thing?"

Throwing my hands up in utter disbelief/disgust.

Shaking my head.

Stepping away from sharp instruments!

When I was in Istaly on my honeymoon, during "Shock & Awe", we walked into a small glass shop in Florence. Florence is the leftiest of the leftists in Italy.

As I was parusing the goods, I noticed a US flag hanging in the prints rack.

I asked the shop keeper as to why she had the flag, and she replied that it was a gift with a subscription to one of the national papers.

I asked her why she didnt hang it in her shop window.

She specifically told me that Italy is split about 60/40 in favor of US policy. But the 40% against is so virulently anti-american, that she did not want to risk a cinder block through her shop window. IN Florence, the peaceful leftists and Arabs get quite violent at the site of an American flag or, heavens to betsy, a Jew in their midst.

I told the shop owner that I was Israeli and she said that Italy supports Israel, too, but understand the plight of the Palestinians.

There is a clear majority on our side. They are sick and tired of this crap, they just have real jobs and lives to run and don't have time to take to the streets like a bunch of Che loving thugs.

like a bunch of Che loving thugs

Is that like the Fun Lovin Criminals?

Market Forces still reign supreme in Italy, and I doubt Hannibal Lecter can drink enough Hitler wine to keep this thing going.

Evariste

In the end, we will win, by hook or by crook whether we play nice with the criminals or I have to become Mr. 187 with the swoll bank roll.

"What the Hell is Wrong with Europe?"

(shrug) Maybe the wine-bottles with David Hasselhoff on the label are getting counter-boycotted?

Evariste--mine is Anchor Steam (San Fran). If you're not in CA, Grolsch will do.

I'm not in CA but I can get Anchor Steam. Good stuph.
So how do I win the bet again? Israel has to bomb Iran nuke plant?
Can I win if the US bombs it too, or only if Israel does?
Is there a time limit on this?

I used to live in SF, what's that Irish bar on Geary called? Fond memories of that place, whatever it was...

Big Howdy to Dr. Rayra, MD on a fly Saturday Night.

#40 Gary Bruce

Grolsch will do.

Ahh, another Grolsch fan!

Vini appears to be a bit of a failed artist. Forced to peddle. Here is some of his verse. its in Italian.

Hmmm. Fuhrerwein--left out the "s"--should be
Furherswein

Shiner Bock.

Vini appears to be a bit of a failed artist

Just like the subject of his wine lables.

Hopefully Vini will avoid politics.

Hey AG. ;)

Grolsch? I keep cutting my hand on the wire clamp when I break the bottle over an LLL's head.

Mommydoc, good letter.

In the last month this blog has been confronted by 1) nazi/communist wines, 2) "artistic" holocaust key chains and coffee mugs, 3) nazi themed clothing.

What's left, what can be done? Outraged e-mails will probably just give the people at Lunadelli ideas for future labels. I wonder who actually buys this crap. Maybe they're so removed from the actual events that what was once horrible and revolting is seen as just another marketing gimmick.

#49 Il Doctore rayra

Grolsch? I keep cutting my hand on the wire clamp when I break the bottle over an LLL's head.

You do that when they're empty right?

The bottle, not the L³'s head, that is...

Shiner Bock is only good in Texas. Everywhere else they must bottle it with some real sewer water or something.
Texas is also the only place where you can get Dr Pepper with real sugar in it.
What's up Texans? Y'all keepin all the good shit to yourselves. Your own power grid and everything. How can we get us some of that?

Well,

Us Texans are considerin' cessation from the Union. The south will rise again. And it starts with the sewer water in the Shiner and then the nutrasweet in the Dr Pepper.

Moo hoo hoo hoo haaa haa haa haa...

I think my adult beverage is getting to me.

Is this "promotion" supposed to be funny? Amusing? Clever?

I'm not laughing.

Evariste:

So how do I win the bet again? Israel has to bomb Iran nuke plant? Can I win if the US bombs it too, or only if Israel does? Is there a time limit on this?

I think it's a double header--we take each other's bets.

Mine was that the IAEA will do nothing about Iran's nuke program after it meets in Austria next week.

Yours is that Israel will do something about it.

My bet is time restricted; yours is not. Do you want to amend yours to make it an Israeli score before Iran declares itself nuclear and put a time stamp on it? I'm open to negotiation.

She specifically told me that Italy is split about 60/40 in favor of US policy. But the 40% against is so virulently anti-american, that she did not want to risk a cinder block through her shop window.

She tells Palestinian tourists the reverse.

I have a friend who took a one week vacation in Italy from Israel. She hung out in a decent cafe. She met a really, really sweet dude. He was a musician. They talked for hours. Then the topic of Israel came up.

Total moonbat.

I never had political discussions in Italy. Mostly arguments with my girlfriend [ex]. Also drank cheap wine. Might have had something to do with the problem. The Tuscany villa was nice, though, *too* nice (as all things in Tuscany).

#42

Ireland's 32? I went in there once and it seemed way too political in that complicated Irish way -- photos of Gerry Adams and such.

I prefer my waterfront dive for the simple pleasures of basic drinking.

Hic! Diarrhea spurring Labatt's Blue beer over here. I like my beer cheap and easy, like my...

right hand.

;)

Got it! Kay, I want to amend mine to add a timestamp: by this time next year, if you have won your bet, then Israel or the US will have bombed the living ^#*&@^ out of Bushehr.
You're on.
We're both gonna win of course, which means I'm gonna send you beer and you're gonna send me beer.

Yair LOL!

AG in Houston (#13)

Zulubaby

I'll second that.

(#54)

I think my adult beverage is getting to me.

Better give me a chance to catch up then!

Don't you get it, folks? Everything eventually gets reduced to retro kitsch. The murderer of six million Jews and the man most responsible for launching the horrors of WWII in Europe is nothing more now than another media symbol who has settled into the collective consciousness, readily available to be scooped out of the ash bin and slapped onto a wine label or, in the case of the Hong Kong clothing store, a line of hip apparel.

My father in law, rest his soul, was taken from his home in Prague and sent as a slave laborer in a factory in Dresden. But who cares? After all, this winery is doing a public service by helping to remember who Hitler was, right?

And Stalin? Don't even ask. Communist symbols have been a part of hip fashion for years, now. Over 20 million dead, you say? What the hell. They're not around to complain, are they?

Btw, mommydoc, that was a good email. I hope that all members of the Lizardoid Minion take a moment to drop this company a line. I did.

Yall started out talking about fascist wine and end up talking good beer and real DP. The only place to still get Dr. Pepper with real cane sugar is Dublin Tx. ( 1 hr . SW of FT. Worth.) As for the beer make mine a Fat tire.

Evariste:

by this time next year, if you have won your bet, then Israel or the US will have bombed the living ^#*&@^ out of Bushehr.

Just Busherh, huh? Not Natanz too? No halfway measures. I think we need an amendment to the codicil.

Hey, before giving up on the Italians, go visit my fiesty friend.

She has the LGF banner on her site.

Gary Bruce-I'll bite! I just couldn't remember Natanz. So yes, both.

Great letter, mommydoc.

At least once a week, I find myself saying, "Fallaci is right."

degeneracy is thriving in old europe.

Lunardelli? As in luna = moon = moonbat? "Lunardelli" sounds like the name of a trendy overpriced food emporium for LLLs.

What are Emperor Franz Josef and Empress Elizabeth of Austria doing in this lineup ("Sissi" was the Empress' nickname)? Old Fritz was widely regarded in his own day as a reactionary with too many ties to the Roman Catholic Church. Incidentally, if the Lunardelli family wanted to list important historical personages related to wine, where's Lucrezia Borgia?

Cult objects? Oh, my aching funnybone!

De-Nazification was good, post WW2. Ergo: De-Baathification is good, post GW2? Not according to a group of Western academic subversives who have allied with Iraqi rejectionists, to undermine the Coalition Provisional Authority:

[Link: www.dailystar.com.lb...]
[Link: www.h-net.org...]

Their main report conclusion is that CPA prohibitions of Baath' advocacy, should be nullified. Therefore: the animals who are killing US and British troops, should be free to propagate Baath revivalism, and undermine the legitimacy of the occupation of the rogue entity. On the other hand, attempts to import Western values should be outlawed as "cultural imperialism." The US has forked out hundreds of billions of dollars, in order to contain the Baathites. Now they are in position to liquidate these savages. And now the academics want to protect Baathism.

My position is that nation building in Iraq, can yield nothing but an islamofascist tyranny. That is why the occupiers should immediately use starvation-siege tactics: food in exchange for bagged jihadis.

#51 reaganite 9/6/2003 06:21PM PST
#49 Il Doctore rayra
Grolsch? I keep cutting my hand on the wire clamp when I break the bottle over an LLL's head.
You do that when they're empty right?

Puh-lease! I'm NOT a Barbarian! (I'm a Doctor!)

"The bottle, not the L³'s head, that is... "
LOL

AG in Houston...just got back from a cross country trip. Southern Cal to Florida panhandle via Austin, Houston, and (visiting parents in) Alabama.

What an amazing country we live in people! From sea to shining sea...just like the song says! It is awesome.

But the most beautiful place is Texas. I am utterly in love with the entire state! West Texas is just like a John Wayne movie...only better! The hill country around Austin and San Antonio is practically heaven on earth.

Where else (other than Germany's Autobahn) can you drive 95mph? The highways are fabulous and rather uncrowded (o.k....no where near Houston is that true) and with a good radar/laser detector ... complete freedom!

I want to move to the hill country between San An, Austin , and Houston.

Accepting advice and information.

Bette

p.s. still hating the Hitler wine idea. What is wrong with these people? Wouldn't ever buy it and I'm a pretty big wine-0!!

Will write dissapproving letter tomorrow a.m. when I am more sober! Or less oenified.

Hoping that zulubaby has the Dior bag by now!

AG in Houston...just got back from a cross country trip. Southern Cal to Florida panhandle via Austin, Houston, and (visiting parents in) Alabama.

What an amazing country we live in people! From sea to shining sea...just like the song says! It is awesome.

But the most beautiful place is Texas. I am utterly in love with the entire state! West Texas is just like a John Wayne movie...only better! The hill country around Austin and San Antonio is practically heaven on earth.

Where else (other than Germany's Autobahn) can you drive 95mph? The highways are fabulous and rather uncrowded (o.k....no where near Houston is that true) and with a good radar/laser detector ... complete freedom!

I want to move to the hill country between San An, Austin , and Houston.

Accepting advice and information.

Bette

p.s. still hating the Hitler wine idea. What is wrong with these people? Wouldn't ever buy it and I'm a pretty big wine-0!!

Will write dissapproving letter tomorrow a.m. when I am more sober! Or less oenified.

Hoping that zulubaby has the Dior bag by now!

I swear pinky square

I am not an idiot!

Preview is my friend.

I swear pinky square

I AM NOT an idiot!

Preview is my ....preview? What's this preview shit?

I swear pinky square

I am not an idiot!

Preview is my friend.

I swear pinky square

I AM NOT an idiot!

Preview is my ....preview? What's this preview shit?

Okay, I've fallen into some twin zone black hole where everyting I do is so cool and wonderful that it automatically repeats w/o effort on my part.

Bette (#73/73/75/76 - LOL!)

Hoping that zulubaby has the Dior bag by now!

It's really nice of you to think of me but I'm going to need a sponsor for that purse ;-)

And I screwed up the numbers! LOL! That's my cue -- nap time.

The website isn't resolving anymore.

My guess is either a DNS attack (would serve them right), or they took their site down temporarily. Even their home page is down.

Germany has protested to the Italian government because of this:

Germany has protested to Italy over a winery that labels its bottles with portraits of Adolf Hitler, the Justice Ministry said.

Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries recently wrote to her Italian counterpart to say the labels are "contemptible and tasteless" and asked him to see what could be done against them, spokeswoman Christiane Wirtz said Friday.

...

The wine is available legally in Italy, where it can also be purchased on the Internet, Wirtz said. Its sale is illegal in Germany, where products bearing images or slogans from the Nazi era are outlawed.

'Hitler wine' sparks protest

While Nazi wine sells, in Berlin last month an Israeli Delikatessen shop was forced to close with the help of a neighboring German wine trader complaining the Israel Deli's presentation of kosher wines in the shop window would make the two shops appear belong together. The German wine trader offered no Israeli wines, and the Israeli Delikatessen had already agreed not to sell kosher wines from other countries. I've not checked whether the neighbor offers the Führerwein in his shop.

see story (in German)

Patrick Sweeney had this story as well on his site Friday with what looks like an ad:

A toast to mass murder?

From the article that Patrick links to in the post above:

The so-called "Fuehrerwein" bottles, part of vintner Alessandro Lunardelli's "historic line," features 14 different labels portraying Hitler with slogans like "Sieg Heil" and other Nazis.

The line also includes labels with portraits of other infamous characters of history, such as Italy's former fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and former Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin.

In a 2001 interview, Lunardelli told The Associated Press the labels were "a great marketing success."

Translation: "As long as the money keeps rolling in, who cares what suvivors of Fascism and Communism might think?"

The wine is available legally in Italy, where it can also be purchased on the Internet, Wirtz said.

I haven't seen it yet myself. May be available only in the north.

Zypries, in her letter to Italian Justice Minister Roberto Castelli, expressed hope that Italy would act as part of common European efforts to fight racism and xenophobia.

Castelli said Friday he had been unaware of the wine labels, but there was nothing his office could do and it was up to prosecutors to investigate.

"I agree, it seems in bad taste," he told Radio Padania in northern Italy.

someguy (#84)

From that site:

On the European yearning to be free from Holocaust guilt--''The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz.''

Gives me the shivers.

Oh please. So one winemaker trying to be 'smart' makes "what the hell is wrong with Europe"?

So, say, if I were to read about david duke's site, the KKK, Aryan nation, whatreallyhappened, or some neonazi hevy metal band in the US, could I say "what the hell is wrong with America"? Of course not, right?

It's not even the same thing as neonazis here, nor comparable with a big marketing store pushing an entire nazi clothes line. There's no law forbidding this company to use those labels - actually, there are laws in Italy too similar to the German ones that ban any neonazi and neofascist celebrations or organisations etc., there was a case brought against this winemaker a few years ago, but it was deemed not to be a case falling under that law. So, end of story. Why is this being resurrected now, I have no idea - well I do, but it's soo predictable...

No one had even heard of this Lunardelli company before the German protests to the Italian Minister of Justice (and wtf is he supposed do about it?). It's one guy with a sick humour and cheap marketing tactics. It's not like you can order it in restaurants and bars like it was a normally available and known wine. Come on.

("Sir, we have an excellent Brunello to go with the risotto..." "No, no, I want the Lunardelli Stalin '97 cuvée", "?" sure, happens everyday...)

But, if you wanna imagine all of Europe is in the grip of some nazi revival and/or trivialisation, go ahead, and don't let sense of proportions get in the way.

#87 zaza

You have to admit that particular winemaker has reached an unprecedented level of stupidity...

#87   zaza 

Never mind that the Germans (Europeans last I heard) are the ones kicking up the biggest fuss about this whole circus. Surely the correct (if idiotic) Headline should be What the Hell is Wrong with Italy? .

I'll take a bottle of Patton, and a case of Yalta conference please. Oh, and a bottle of Che to go with my mug and teeshirt.

I don't see any difference between that and selling 9/11 T-Shirts at ground zero.

Sheer bad taste.

#88 Mr Pol: that goes without saying.

But, it's one label nowhere near being famous (before this). I've never come across, or never known anyone, even among the most wine-fanatic kind, who came across this wine label. Never even heard it before.

There's thousands of wines in Italy, this guy is just trying to get publicity this way cos his wine evidently sucks and is unknown. You'd never find his label in an ordinary restaurant or bar, despite what the clever AP photo-op suggests, tsk...

The Lunardelli guy must be having a ball with this. He's probably shipping the Stalin bottles over to his German PR office.

I have to agree with zaza that this hasn't got anything to do with Italy as a country or Europe as a whole (400+ million people, after all).

# 84 zulubaby

That's just some bullshit bonmot somebody came up with. That has nothing to do witrh Germans, apart from a lunatic fringe.

Amazing! I remember going into a wineshop in Florence summer of '01 and seeing these same bottle collections.

My friend and I cracked up at the amazingly non-PC attitude and remarked that such a thing would have gotten front page news had it been in the States.

I had totally forgotten this piece of weirdness from Europe.

zaza #87:

It's not even the same thing as neonazis here, nor comparable with a big marketing store pushing an entire nazi clothes line.

Sorry, but that does not compute, Will Robinson. In fact, when I saw that story on Patrick Sweeney's website Friday, I left the link to Charles' post on the Hong Kong stores in the URL section because my gut reaction was that there IS a parallel.

There's no law forbidding this company to use those labels - actually, there are laws in Italy too similar to the German ones that ban any neonazi and neofascist celebrations or organisations etc., there was a case brought against this winemaker a few years ago, but it was deemed not to be a case falling under that law.

So (sorry if I'm getting carried away), if there's no law then no harm no foul? Let's dismiss the whole thing with a shrug, then. After all, if someone's within his rights when he spits and stomps on the graves of innocent murderd millions, he deserves a free pass!

I agree with you (and #92 Martin G.) that to say that something's "wrong with Europe" or even Italy is unfair based on this one incident. In fact, Charles' flying pig moment sounds tentatively hopeful. (Let's see how long it lasts and what actually comes of it; like whether the money spigot to Arafat gets turned off.)

But there's no excuse for that crap. And there is REALLY, ABSOLUTELY NO excuse whatsoever for Castelli' cavalier quote:

"I agree, it seems in bad taste," he told Radio Padania in northern Italy.

That's a little like saying that if a kid eats too much rat poison he would seem a little dead.

#91 zaza

20 years ago in Europe, nobody would have used Nazi symbols or pictures of Hitler to sell anything - if only because nobody would have bought it. 10 years ago, nobody would have used Stalin pictures, for the same reasons. Today, this kind of shit is good marketing, it helps sell. What's next? Torture pictures? Islamic death porn?

There's definitely something wrong with Europe.

#95 Mr Pol:

What's next? Torture pictures? Islamic death porn?

The latter has been done already. Remember Charles' posts on the bullet-holed dresses?

(I'd dig up the link for you, but can't remember the titles.) :(

zaza (#87)

As you are well aware, it is not this one incident that has prompted Charles to say, "What the hell is wrong with Europe?" There are several reasons to wonder exactly what the hell is wrong with Europe.

But, if you wanna imagine all of Europe is in the grip of some nazi revival and/or trivialisation, go ahead, and don't let sense of proportions get in the way.

Led by the Islamists, I wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand. There is so much anti-Semitism now and nobody is in the closet about it anymore either. It's become acceptable again, couched in "anti-Zionism". Perhaps a Nazi revival with a twist -- Islam-style? There is most definitely cause for concern.

#94 someguy: huh? what Castelli said is: that he received the requests from Germany but there is nothing he can do about it, so whatever he thinks of it personally is irrelevant to his role as Minister of Justice, esp. since the case had already been deliberated upon and judged not to be in breach of any laws. I don't understand what the heck is wrong with him also acknowledging that it is indeed in poor taste.

That's not understatement, it's simply saying the obvious. There is absolutely no reason to hint at any "excusing" neonazi or neofascist inclinations. Unless you're writing for the Guardian or il Manifesto or Libération and trying to push the usual classic that Italy's current government is a threat to democracy cos they and their electors are all far-right fascist nostalgics.

So (sorry if I'm getting carried away), if there's no law then no harm no foul? Let's dismiss the whole thing with a shrug, then.

You're definitely getting carried away. The point is: it's a German minister protesting to an Italian minister over this, but it's not an issue that belongs to Justice, and there is already a sentence that concluded this was not glorification of nazism or fascism or communism. Conclusion: nothing can be done legally. If people want to protest, fine, but this stuff's been around for years, and there's something puzzling about the German minister raising the stink all over again now.

I find it the wine label sick and stupid, but I can't prevent this single one winemaker guy from selling it, period. And I'm not gonna waste time protesting about something so stupid and irrelevant that has no influence or relation to neonazi groups either (what about Stalin then?). It is an irrelevant thing, no matter what you wanna connect it to.

Same would happen in the US, when there's not even any laws forbidding neonazi associations and groups and displays at all, so there wouldn't be even an option of lodging formal complaints to a Minister of Justice. It's ridiculous to even bring it up at that level. That's my point, that's what I meant. That's why the fuss is ridiculous. One winemaker who thinks he's so smart selling bottles with pictures of dictators on them, oh gosh, let's have the whole Ministry get busy with him, cos its such a national and international concern... please...

someguy (#97)

Are you talking about this dress?

#99 zaza

You're right about the winemaker... utter stupidity is not a crime, alas. I'm concerned about the buyers. European education systems totally failed in teaching history to the last two generations, apparently, while European parents failed in teaching their children basic morality.

# 96 bigel,

that's just another "nuke Europe" post like many others., so what's to get upset about? ;)

I remind you that we are talking here about hundreds of millions of people. You can't judge them by isolated incidents.

We also won't become part of the "world-wide caliphate", Muslim birth-rates in Europe are declining as much as those of native Europeans.

And as far as the article in the Jerusalem Post is concerned, the German jewish community is growing, unlike the French one.

# Mr. Pol

it's not like it is a big hit or something.

#103 Martin G.

Europe probably won't become part of a "world-wide Caliphate", because most Europeans will oppose Islam with utter ruthlessness in the end. In the meantime, most European governments are selling out Europe to Islam...

#104 Martin G.

it's not like it is a big hit or something.

So? do you think we should wait until the problem is too big to solve before doing something about it?

Are you a French politician?

And zaza, nobody thinks that about you or the other Europeans that we know are decent and sane people. Present company is always excluded, you know that ;-)

#99 zaza:

This may be a language problem. I don't know, but in case it is let me explain something to you. In English, "poor taste" is a phrase we reserve for bad color combinations or off-color jokes.

It is NOT, repeat, NOT a phrase that we use for people who use images of anti-Semitic and other totalitarian mass-murderers. That is a gross understatement in English already. To further qualify it with "seems to be" is to go further beyond the pale. So if the statement is translated accurately, then it is an understatement.

I stand by what I wrote.

Same would happen in the US, when there's not even any laws forbidding neonazi associations and groups and displays at all, so there wouldn't be even an option of lodging formal complaints to a Minister of Justice. Sorry to have to point out the obvious here, but the Holocaust didn't happen in the U.S. Jews were never abused on the scale that's happening to them in France now. And I've never heard of anything like "Aryan Brotherhood Brew" or "Grand Wizard Vintage" ever being available for sale even in northern Idaho.

In short, it seems to me as if you are dismissing something far more serious than tasteless (and no, that is not the right word in any language, IMO) on a technicality.

# 106 Mr Pol

Non to both questions, mon cher!

#98 zulubaby: ok, but that antisemitism dressed as anti-zionism is another matter from this, and it's not like it doesn't happen in the US either.

I'm not gonna debate on the level of antisemitism and anti-Israel positions in the whole of Europe, on which I've already discussed a lot and hold views not that different from yours, based on one sly and stupid wine marketer in Udine. That's all.

Is that totally illogical? I don't think so. Is Charles' heading for this story really overblown? yes. Even considering all the other instances of real bias against Israel and/or Jews you decide to connect to this, which IMHO is not a relevant case. The headline is for this case, and just as in the case of that Polish artist selling "Auscwitzh memorabilia" which was just as sick if not more, it's totally overblown in relation to single individual marginal cases. When supermarkets and big clothes stores start selling stuff with Hitler on it from London to Paris to Rome to Berlin and all over, then you'll have a point to use those headlines.

#95 Mr Pol: Mao's pictures were all over the place since the sixties too, Andy Warhol version or not, ditto for Lenin, Stalin, the Che Guevara, flags of Cuba, Castro being popular with the leftist intellighentzia, even in the US. I know, Hitler is another matter. But this is nowhere near the spread of Mao's or Che's pictures on t-shirts or paraphernalia, it's not a major marketing chain or label, it's sooo marginal and it's so one sick joke by one marginal company that has really no place in Italian winemaking.

So, you can't take it as representative of anything "European", not even Italian.

If you wanna talk the issue of antisemitism/antizionism in Italy, or the whole of Europe, then its a lot larger and more serious as an issue than this.

If instead of doing that discussion, you just wanna go for the all-or-nothing bashing and reach bigel's conclusions (no bigel, heh, I'm not gonna go ballistic, no worry, you're the ones who delights in visions of nuclear armageddon, not me!), then go ahead, but you'd be doing nothing serious.

#101 zulubaby:

Yes! SCORE!

I added the links to my favorites. Thanks for being such a good archivist.

#107 bigel

Civil war, ending only when the last Muslim is dead, has surrendered or has left. That's how Europe will avoid it, through violence and death. Old European tradition. I'm witnessing the first shifts in public opinion in France... it's not going to be pretty.

#110 Martin G.

Can you explain your comment #104, then?

#112 zaza

My point is that this is yet another disturbing event in an already bad trend. That trend is the failure of European education systems, the deresponsibilization of Europeans in general, and the global shift toward "collective responsibility" in European society. You can keep arguing this is just a meaningless data point in the overall trend... but it's still yet another disturbing event in an already bad trend. I'm not surprised, I'm not shocked, but I'm concerned, and I expected you to be concerned, too.

zaza: zulubaby's #108 goes for me as well. I disagree with you on this one (over semantics, probably), but I do not want to give any ground to Jew-haters whether they are acting within the law or not.

And to anyone who is entertaining anything like a "nuke Europe" option: THAT is equally disgusting as the display on this post. Those bombs would know no difference between friends like zaza and an Islamofacist who happened to be standing next to her on a train platform.

Anyone who thinks such things seriously becomes what he hates.

#115 Mr Pol,

I was just pointing out that the buyers of this wine aren't representative.

What can I do anyway? Selling or buying this wine here in Germany is already illegal and our government has protested to the Italian one. If Germany tried to lean on Italay or any other country to follow suit and make it illegal too there would be a huge outcry and we'd be called Nazis for wanting others to make nazi symbols illegal. So, there.

If we want to get at such people or those who publish Nazi propaganda we'll have to wait till they get stupid and blunder into the German police's hands.

#116 bigel:

But other than in Denmark, where have any political parties taken power that actually are dedicated to reversing the Islamicization of Europe?

I've lived here for 11 1/2 years myself, and it's not that easy; especially in larger, more populous countries that have more urban centers where Muslims congregate.

The economic and political forces that have brought and kept Muslims in Europe are too complex and interconnected to simply vote in The No Muslim Party one day and put them all on boats for the Maghreb and Levant the next. To greatly oversimplify, one broad issue is that the Muslims here are used as pawns and barganing chips by EUROPEAN politicians so that they can increase their own money and power. It is somewhat analogous to what happens in some cases with illegal Mexican immigrants in California.

zaza has some good articles on her site that provide a lot of insight into this issue.

#108 zulubaby: that's not always true, seen as Mr Pol had the amusing idea to call me the new Conventbabe for simply not being thrilled with a few extreme suggestions, and bigel had the even more amusing idea to suggest I frequent too many "European intellectuals" when I wasn't too thrilled at his nuclear ravings.

However, it's not even the point what people think of me personally just cos I support the US and Israel and I tend to agree with Oriana Fallaci on Islam and I dislike the EU and all that. I'm annoyed with sweeping generalisations coming from any part, cos they're not true to facts. I don't care if I get lumped in or not in those generalisations. When they get hysterical, they simply get hysterical - and that is the thing I'm pointing out, not me being "different" to what some people imagine as a horde of hundreds of millions sick, decadent, morally corrupt and antisemitic swine.

#102 Mr Pol: see, that's hysterical bullshit. What is "THE European education system"? First, it's different in each country. Second, to infer that people in all countries in Europe are taught nothing thorough and serious about the real horrors of nazism and fascism and stalinism is absurd. Maybe actually it's the latter that gets more whitewashing, if you have leftist teachers. But there's no widespread ignorance either, and how many do you think are the buyers for this wine anyway? what concern is it?

I'm baffled something like this should be connected to real serious issues. What a waste of attention.

Oh, and regarding Islam. Name one country which has more than one million Muslims and is not "selling out" or appeasing that community, or Arab states that fund the mosques. It's a problem everywhere, and seeing it as only something that affects Europe is really deluded. If it becomes only a reason to bash "Europe", then, it's also really stupid.

#119 Martin G

What can I do anyway?

Write to your elected representatives. Talk to people around you. Explain what's happening to as many people as you can. Write letters and articles, and try to get them published, explaining what's going wrong in your society. Spread the word. That's what you can do anyway.

Here's an exampole of what I'm talking about:

Gary Lauck is in prison in Germany. In March, 1995, police in Europe arrested Lauck and extradited him to Germany. On August 22, 1996, he was convicted of inciting racial hatred and disseminating illegal propaganda. Lauck was sentenced to four years in jail. After the sentence was imposed, Lauck spoke to the media for the first time, shouting, "Neither the Communists nor the Nazis would ever have dared kidnap an American citizen. The fight will go on." Lauck maintained that he was prosecuted for acts that are protected by the U.S. Constitution's free speech protections.

Here's what German police found -- books pamphlets, posters, videos, all praising Adolf Hitler. The material ridiculed Jews, blacks, gypsies, and a host of other groups.They also found weapons, instructions to make bombs and computer message boards to spread the world on-line. For Gary Lauck, it's familiar material.

[Link: net.unl.edu...]

#122 zaza

Why do I call you the new Conventbabe?

My comment #117:

the failure of European education systems

Your answer:

see, that's hysterical bullshit. What is "THE European education system"?

End of discussion. When you stop putting words in other people's mouths, we might have something to discuss.

#120 bigel:

Call me hateful, but since Israel's fate is likely apparently sealed, do you think Israel should just roll over and die?

No I don't think Israel should do any such thing. (If I did, why would I get so exorcised over an apparently legal wine label?)

I would like to see the USAF and IAF team up to turn the site where these nukes are being developed into a sheet of glass.

But what does that have to do with Europe?

#123 Mr Pol,

it is already illegal here, and people in other countries don't take kindly to be lectured be Germans, especially not on this issue. You are right, though, I'll give it a shot anyway.

Btw, I believe in free speech, but I think the best solution would be if other countries also made that kind of thing illegal.

#117 Mr Pol

That trend is the failure of European education systems, the deresponsibilization of Europeans in general, and the global shift toward "collective responsibility" in European society

Again, trying for the last time to get my point across, which is clearly a futile effort: how is that connected to one winemaker in Udine?

That's the topic here. One Italian winemaker nowhere near being awarded any prizes for quality, or marketing.

Nowhere near having his stuff served in restaurants and bars like it was better than Chianti either.

I'm not concerned by this wine being sold in such marginal fashion.

I'm not entering a debate here on much bigger and more serious issues that do merit concern but are not connected to Mr Alessandro Lunarelli and his own peculiar marketing choices, cos I'd find that ridiculous.

Are we going to make a connection between Andy Warhol's Mao pictures and the Che Guevara shirts and some general world zeitgeist too? wouldn't that be really stretching it too?

Mr Pol: heh, applauses, applauses. The lack of interest is mutual, but I don't need to compare you with any prick of your choice to avoid discussing with you in your peculiar fashion where you start the claim I put words in your mouth and leave it at that. You talked in #102 of "the European education system" which "totally failed in teaching history to the last two generations, apparently, while European parents failed in teaching their children basic morality". I didn't put any hysterical bullshit in your mouth, you were the one to do it. I replied. Now, I'm not here to go "wow, deep, yes, yes, you're so right" when you come up with that crap, but that doesn't make me an antisemitic troll that got banned from this site. Feel free to think otherwise. Cheers, and pleased to serve you.

#127 Martin G.

Using Nazi symbols to sell is only one symptom. Morality is disappearing in Europe. Anything that sells will be used to sell, no matter how disgusting it is.

It's not something new. It's been happening for more than half a century, thanks to leftish propaganda glorifying mass murderers as long as they were "left" mass-murderers... or "peace" movements, paid for and supported by the Soviet Union to oppose any defensive measure taken by the West. The answer is not to make stupidity illegal, IMO, it's to restore our education systems, and in particular to teach history properly.

Ah yes, Mr Pol, you said European systemS, now I get it. What a big difference.

Point still stands, education systemS are still different in every country geographically located in Europe, and saying they all generally fail to teach about history, or that "European parents" fail to teach morality, is bs. Especially relating that to this Lunarelli case....

Maybe when it wins the European Award for Winemaking, you'll have a point in making a) sweeping generalisations about 25 countries and b) connecting those generalisations to the news item that's the topic of this thread.

Is that clearer perhaps?

#130 Mr Pol

Morality is disappearing in Europe. Anything that sells will be used to sell, no matter how disgusting it is.

You have to provide more than 13 bottles of wine by 1 single winemaker from 1 town in Italy to support that claim.

Otherwise it's no different than talking of America starting from some unknown heavy metal band wearing armbands with swastikas during their shows.

(Which wouldn't even be the same thing, but still)

Last thing, sorry for not making a single post - to Mr Pol, that trend in glorifying/trivialising Che or Castro or Mao is not exclusive to Europe, so, of course your point about teaching history properly is valid, but, honestly, as someone very critical of my own country first of all, and the school system too, I know the history of fascism or nazism is not trivialised, that doesn't prevent some deluded and ignorant youths from going neonazi or thinking this wine labels are a cool thing. YET, they're nowhere near being a mainstream thing. And in this, I don't see a BIG difference with the US where Che tshirts and such are as widespread in campuses among the leftist kids just as much as in Europe.

Bigel: no, I don't stick my head in the sands. Neither you or I have a finger on the button of any nukes. So I find it useless to talk about it. Especially in the usual terms you do of Europe deserving it as a whole. End of story.

Someguy: ok, I know what you mean about the language. I can assure you it didn't sound like an understatement at all, his words meant it is *obviously* something sick and perverse, not just "bad taste" as in "oh look what horribke curtains". I heard Castelli's statement, and he was simply making the point he cannot act anyway because it's not his competence and the judges already handled the case years ago, and that it's obvious it's a sick thing, but not for him to handle. Castelli (Northern League) is one of the most pro-american and pro-israel politicians in Italy, so, really, there's no way you can read a dismissal of what would be a serious concern of antisemitism.

I just don't see it that way, at least. Agree to disagree on that, ok. But what I do see is a truly irrelevant case - not serious, not mainstream, not even more than sick and cheap marketing - of one single publicity-seeking idiot being brought to attention of an Italian Northern League Minister by a German minister, years after the case was brought up and handled in court already, and for (probably) even too obvious reasons of continuing the silly saga. That's what is ludicrous.

zaza:

I have to disagree. I don't mind being called "hysterical" when I'm concerned about something like this. I don't even mind being called paranoid. I believe in staying vigilant about these matters because the subtleties are easy to miss and dismiss and I would like to avoid that from happening. It's these little chipping aways, what was previously unacceptable and is now becoming, or has already become, en vogue. And it is a dangerous trend. I cannot ignore this or pretend that it is of no consequence. This is as unnerving as the Nazi clothing but less forgivable since the Europeans cannot plead ignorance.

I am not condemning the whole of Europe for this but I don't think it's as innocuous as you seem to. I respect your views but on this one we'll have to agree to disagree.

When supermarkets and big clothes stores start selling stuff with Hitler on it from London to Paris to Rome to Berlin and all over, then you'll have a point to use those headlines.

My point being that letting things like this slide may lead to the supermarkets carrying this wine. I'd rather not see that happen. As I said, I don't mind being accused of paranoia concerning this because the truth is that I am paranoid about it and shall remain so. It's necessary, in my opinion.

someguy (#113)

Thanks for being such a good archivist.

Don't thank me, thank Charles! I just use his search function ;-)

zaza: well, zulubaby has already said it, but I will too -- present company excluded. This headline was not aimed at you, or at the many sensible Europeans that remain.

But it's awfully hard, after covering for two years the undeniable rise of antisemitism and trivialization of the Holocaust that's happening in Europe, to feel that this is just a non-issue. The headline is my expression of outrage that such a thing is even possible; I doubt that even 20 years ago such wine labels would have been conceived and marketed.

Is there antisemitism in America? Sure. But Europe has seen a real increase in this kind of hatred in recent years that has no parallel in America. And I'm certainly not the only one to notice it; witness the conference on antisemitism recently held by the EU.

Germany, to their credit, is also standing up in outrage, and has complained to the Italian government about the Lunardelli Hitler wine:

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

The German embassy doesn't seem to believe this is a non-issue either; in fact, they've been complaining to Italy about this wine since 1997.

Charles and zulubaby: look, I'm not implying antisemitism is not an issue in Europe. Nor saying the proportions are exactly the same as in the US. (Side note: my point to someguy about there being no laws banning neonazi displays or organizations in the US was not a criticism of the US approach to this at all. It works that way for the US, cos banning those groups would drive them even more to an underground fringe where they could be more dangerous, while allowing them even to march keeps them marginal and controllable. It works differently in Europe, and we need laws banning those associations and groups, cos of the different history, like someguy said. That goes without saying).

I'm honestly, genuinely, not seeing the big deal in this case itself, nor how you connect such an individual, marginal case, to discussions on Europe in general, or antisemitism in general.

I understand you intend the headline as connecting to the more general issue and raising debate on that, Charles. I just think this is not part of any trend. Like that Polish "artist" with that stupid and sick idea about Auschwitz "memorabilia", it's one single person seeking publicity, not a mainstream thing - not in Italy, or Europe.

I also find it puzzling that the protests from the German government are coming up again years after the case had been raised and discussed and handled already (one can disagree with the sentence, but it means the complaints were taken seriously). Also, that AP story quotes one phrase by the Italian Justice Minister that makes him sound as if he didn't give a toss at all, whereas like I wrote above he said that phrase while making the point about the legal competence, stating he obviously finds the marketing of these labels, sick, but cannot do anything about it, legally.

So I appreciate your replies and points of view, but I'll have to disagree on drawing any conclusions starting from instances like this - because of those precise reasons I said, nothing to do with the wider discussion which has more relevant instances, whether we're talking antisemitism or trivialisation of history.

For instance, I found the Tories in the UK using images of Hitler in a big tv ad campaign against the euro far more worrying and disturbing. No matter what the point to get across was, and how I might have agreed with it, the use of that footage was objectively a trivialisation, and coming from one of the main parties in Britain, was something a bit bigger than this or that Polish "artist". Of course, it is obvious the Tories were not using Hitler in a celebratory manner, so nothing to do with antisemitism, but it was still part of an expensive ad campaign of one big political party. So, in my own view, that'd be something where, even if it's not antisemitism, the trivialisation was really beyond the pale.

Ps - zulubaby: I know what you mean there, I'm not disagreeing with your wider argument at all, only with its connection to this. No supermarkets are carrying or are *ever* going to carry this wine - that's exactly the point. It's been around for years. Most people don't even know about these wines existing at all. It's one thing very similar to that Polish artist "feat" - publicity seeking, "outrage" seeking, etc. totally individual cases.

I'd be happier too if there was not even one single Mr Lunardelli coming up with something like this. But I genuinely don't see it as matter for concern, or connected to the serious matters of concern, as long as it's something so extremely marginal as it is.

Instances of glorification of nazism or fascism are pursued in Italy too, there's a similar law to the one in Germany, only it was deemed as not applying to this case.

Even football hooligans of the far-right kind are monitored, the banners are controlled to avoid them bringing neonazi crap in stadiums (as far as possible, cos they're sly..) There is attention to this sort of thing, laws or not.

There are neofascists and nostalgics even in Italy. It is a marginal thing, though. Even the far-right parties have cleaned up their acts and do denounce remains of that mentality among their ranks. When there are cases of some of that far-right apologists for Mussolini, they do raise big complaints not just by law officers or politicians, but by popular opinion, mainstream opinion.

Whereas, a bunch of far left and no global groups chanting "death to Israel! free palestine!" at the trade union demonstrations gets largely unreported, or whitewashed, or cast aside, most of all by the "moderate" left, who doesn't admit to that kind of antisemitism being present in their ranks, cos they either shrug it aside or hide behind that anti-zionist distinctions, and still maintain antisemitism is only a problem of the right (all the right, they don't make distinctions, and the far left just tar the whole current government as fascist, and Berlusconi as Mussolini, Bush as Hitler, that whole crap).

Since that position on Israel is something very crucial, even a bunch of people shouting that kind of slogans is a lot more serious as an instance. (And guess what, that's why it doesn't get reported by AP!)

It's not a matter of right, or left, though. I do believe it's simply important to connect serious issues to serious instances, otherwise the risk is of trivialising the concern itself.

But ok, I accept we're not agreeing on the relevance of this case. I understand your point of view, and agree on the wider issue. I just hope you understand what my objection is precisely about.

89 VFI writes:

Surely the correct (if idiotic) Headline should be What the Hell is Wrong with Italy?

I disagree. ALL Europeans should feel a need to categorically reject anything and everything that glorifies Nazism.

After all, what did Hitler bring Europe? Death, destruction, pain, humiliation, racism, more death and more destruction. When it happens in Hong Kong, it's horrific, but I suppose it can be explained away as cultural or geographic ignorance. Europeans don't have that excuse.

Hitler should be the best advertisement in history against anti-Semitism. It hasn't quite worked out that way, has it? Hitler vinyards is just the latest example, and it happens to be in Italy.

BTW, there are several topics where I think it's fair to ask the question:
"What the hell is wrong with America?"

I know many here will disagree with me, but the fight by many in the South to keep the Confederate Flag as part of their State flag, or in the alternative actually fly the Stars and Bars on State property - that prompts me to ask the same question of my own country.

Now, this affliction is only affecting less than a handful of states, but reflects poorly on the entire nation, IMO.

You MUST check this site out:
[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

#139 SCJ

Hitler vinyards is just the latest example, and it happens to be in Italy.

*sigh*

One single unknown Italian winemaker using Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin on his bottles.

Compare with that instance of the Tories tv ad campaign:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

[Link: media.guardian.co.uk...]

Would you not agree the cause for complaints was a lot more serious there, coming from an entire political party?

141 zaza:

Would you not agree the cause for complaints was a lot more serious there, coming from an entire political party?

In some respects yes, in some respects no. At any rate, the ads were completely ridiculous.

BUT, at least they were using Hitlerian images to be critical of certain policies. Ridiculous, over the top, pointless, useless, unfounded, etc... But critical.

Do these wine labels represent the opinions of even a majority of Europeans? Of course not - not even close. I'm not saying that. Neither do most Americans wish that there be Confederate Flags flying at Southern State capitals. That doesn't even account for the thousands of private citizents who buy, sell and possess Confederate images.

I'm willing to accept condemnation as an American for our morons, even though there's very little I can do about it. They reflect badly on America and all Americans, just as this Uber Vintner reflects poorly on Europeans.

Do I think all (or even most) Europeans are bad? Of course not. But I don't think all Americans are bad, merely because a percentage of yahoos keep screaming about how the South will rise again. It is, however, quite embarrassing.

And, SoCalJustice: even in Hong Kong, it is individual cases, I personally didn't go for the "cultural ignorance" excuse which is plain stupid. It was one bar, and then the marketing store - it was more serious in the latter case, because it was an entire store.

And that "ALL Europeans should feel a need to categorically reject anything and everything that glorifies Nazism" is not even in discussion, and I don't believe view from ireland was denying that either.

Now, I or the Justice Minister can't prevent this guy from making his wine with those labels. I don't spend my time protesting them either cos it's all publicity for this idiot and his wine labels are a totally marginal matter. Whereas, I do take the time to complain to the media and press and political parties when I see instances of trivialisation of nazism that are of big concern for all, and/or instances of antisemitism in coverage of Israel, and/or instance of blatant slant towards Arab propaganda and lies.

The Tories ad, while not falling under those categories, was still one sick and revolting "joke". I don't take that as representative of Britain either. Just the disgraceful careless mentality of those who chose that campaign - as in Hong Kong with the store, as for the winemaker. But, the Tories are a big political party, not one idiot or one clothes store. Which is also why that case rightly drew so much anger.

That's what I mean by sense of proportions. No need to make one single case speak of one entire continent, or country, be it Europe, or Asia.

#142 SoCalJustice

BUT, at least they were using Hitlerian images to be critical of certain policies. Ridiculous, over the top, pointless, useless, unfounded, etc... But critical.

Ah, see, but that's not what should come into the equation at all. Trivialisaiton is trivialisation. A political party spends millions for a campaign with famous comedians that abuses a tragic history so lightly and carelessly, it's a lot worse. It doesn't matter what point they were making. I was against the euro too. But a single ad like that would have lost me the Tory vote for ever! (if I lived in Britain).

Do these wine labels represent the opinions of even a majority of Europeans?

the question should be: do they represent any opinions at all?

It's all one marketing idiotic publicity-seeking move. There's no point being made at all.

That in a way it's a sillier trivialisation than the Tory ad - so I know what you mean there, but the real factor of relevance is another. There's no comparing the level of impact and responsibilites. The Tories are a political party representing a good size of a nation. They have a lot more responsibilities, they literally represent people. It doesn't matter at all whether I agree with them or not on their policies being marketed through that campaign, just as it doesn't matter if that wine tastes good or not.

I'm willing to accept condemnation as an American for our morons, even though there's very little I can do about it.

But you shouldn't! I'd never dream of connecting an individual case or a bunch of morons with a wider issue and tar all Americans by association with that.

Now of course we're comparing apples and oranges here. I also have no actual idea what you're talking about with the Confederate flag issue here, I'm honestly totally ignorant of that case and what it is about - but I wouldn't assume, if its something marginal, that it reflects badly on Americans as a whole. Just as this case cannot reflect on anything more than the person coming up with the idea. Where's the concept of individual responsibilities disappeared?

I'll give my own view (for what it's worth).

Italians, like the vast majority of Europeans are all too aware of the history of despots in europe. No-one has any excuse to be ignorant of their history, and such ignorance is rare.

This wine 'issue' is a complete red herring in relation to the 'rise of anti-semitism/holocaust trivialisation' theory.
It's blindingly obvious that novelty wine lables don't push people over the edge into dictator worship, let alone holocaust denial or anti-semitism. This is a vineyard that promotes it's produce with dracula, bikers and churchill to garner some market share. The facists and communist labels have a curiosity value for some, and that sells the product. I'd bet that if tellytubbies pulled in punters he'd have them on there too. Does 'The Producers' trivialise the Holocaust? I don't think so. I don't think these bottles do either.

Yes it's in poor taste, but since when did poor taste in marketing lead one into a world of race hate? Some people will be offended by these bottles (and they are undeniably offensive), some will fleetingly acknowledge the curiousness of the strategy and move on to something better, and some will buy the stuff because it's a novelty/they collect wine lables, they collect hitler/mussolini/churchill/dracula memorabilia/ they're raving neo-nazi/anti-semites who like gimmicky wine.

I just don't buy this 'slippery slope' argument as applied to this wine. People everywhere exercise moral judgements on the basis of real social concerns, not on the persuasiveness of a dictators image on a bottle of wine. Did Vivienne Westwood lead people into neo-nazi sympathies by sticking swastikas on her punk collections in '77? Some people collect this stuff for their own reasons, and it isn't always to do with sympathy for the despot's causes or philosophy. And if people want to buy it, there's always someone who will supply the market.

I'm with zaza on the world of difference that a value association like the tories implied by using the iconography of hitler, and indeed the whole bushitler thing too. This wine thing is a complete distraction.

On a related note: do people here believe that all 'nazi memorabilia' nuts (presumably the main niche market for the hitler bottles) are sympathetic to the ideals of nazism?

144 zaza

Ah, see, but that's not what should come into the equation at all.

Trivialisaiton is trivialisation.

I disagree. All trivializations are not the same. I'm offended by all of, but some more than others.

the question should be: do they represent any opinions at all?

If people buy them, it represents something of note to me.

It's all one marketing idiotic publicity-seeking move. There's no point being made at all.

The point being made is that there's a market for it.

I do agree with you that the Tory ad is a bigger issue because it comes from an established, sizable, powerful entity. And it was rightly condemned - but relfected poorly upon the Tories, the English, the British, etc...

But you shouldn't! I'd never dream of connecting an individual case or a bunch of morons with a wider issue and tar all Americans by association with that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I blame myself - I'm saying those racists reflect poorly on me and my country. It is the society's fault, all our society, that we have not sufficiently educated people about what's decent, appropriate and respectful. Will we ever get to that type of society? No, but America has problems. Europe has problems. The Middle East has too many problems to count.

Where's the concept of individual responsibilities disappeared?

Now that's the apples and oranges argument. Collective responsibility in no way negates individual responsibility. They both exist at the same time.

I'm logging off to watch a football (Steelers) game, but will be back later if you'd like to continue.

zaza

I'm back for a quick second to change my stance and agree with you on the following point:

Trivialisaiton is trivialisation.

I am offended by all triviliazations of Hitler/Nazis.

Just read VFI's post:

Does 'The Producers' trivialise the Holocaust? I don't think so. I don't think these bottles do either.

Horrible comparison. Not a good idea to compare Mel Brooks to Hitler Label wine.

Alright, off to football again. Back later.

#145, view from Ireland:

Your basic point is that these "vintage" wine labels are meaningless in the greater scheme of things, and perhaps they are in the eyes of those who purchase them or who pay them no mind. Sure, they may not radicalize the beholder, but is that really the point?

Imagine if this winery came out with a "bin-Laden" collection. Taking your reasoning at face value, such an enterprise would have absolutely no social significance, neither to the seller, the buyer, nor the society in which the transaction was tolerated. But in order to believe that, one must take a strained reading of human nature.

The reduction of such recent and painful horrors to amusing abstractions is something more than poor taste; it reflects a sort of decadence, a collective winking at the past, and a refusal to acknowledge that these figures are more than dusty trinkets in the attic of historical memory. At best, it demonstrates that these symbols increasingly do not matter, they do not carry their former weight. At worst -- and I suspect that this is the reasoning behind much of it -- it allows people to celebrate their fantasies without having to take responsibility for them.

What are those Europeans thinking?

---- Commercial Break ----

Anchor Steam is very good,
but Anchor Porter is better.
Anchor Porter is full, rich,
and so dark that it actually
pours slowly.

And then there's Anchor Liberty Ale,
for those who truly enjoy finely made malt.

---- Commercial Break ----

Mainly, the Europeans have forgotten how to think!

BTW --

The hitler winemaker's web site appears to be down.

Musta been hacked. For shame!

Shocked! Shocked!

Has anyone tried the 1998 Petain Merlot? It's almost as good as the 93' Quisling Reserve.

Cheers

#145 view from ireland

People everywhere exercise moral judgements on the basis of real social concerns, not on the persuasiveness of a dictators image on a bottle of wine.

Exactly. It depends on the nature and impact of it. It's not like the effect of say, bias in constant media coverage.

On a related note: do people here believe that all 'nazi memorabilia' nuts (presumably the main niche market for the hitler bottles) are sympathetic to the ideals of nazism?

No, I wouldn't think nazi memorabilia collectors are necessarily all neonazis, but I wouldn't think they're that right in the head either... But this is not even nazi memorabilia really, it's a photo plastered on a bottle. I think the target is more that curiosity/outrage/gadget effect you said. Which I find stupid and sick, and I could never associate Hitler's face to anything even remotely 'gadget value', but, still, I can see how that'd work for Stalin for instance, like it did for Mao, Castro, Che Guevara, there's been more of a pop iconography trend there. It hasn't necessarily voided people's knowledge or judgement, except for those who wave those flags at anti-global protests and such.

_______

SoCalJustice:

I am offended by all triviliazations of Hitler/Nazis.

Same here, but it's also a case of, like you said, finding some more offensive than others. Depends on intent, impact, nature, who's doing it, etc. That's why that Tory ad instance, I find a lot more offensive than this. I don't think it reflects badly on the British at all, though. After all, there's been a tradition there of comedians mocking Hitler - which I don't like in any form, I don't think it's something to be mocked ever, even if the intent is clearly not celebratory. I didn't even like Chaplin's movie parodying Hitler. But, say, the John Cleese sketch in the Fawlty Towers episode with the German tourists, that was different cos the target of mockery was the British relation to Germans, not nazism. I can see how that too would be offensive though. So, it is *also* a matter of perception when the lines are blurry and the statement is not overtly celebratory.

The ad was nowhere near that kind of comedy, and it was totally out of line because of how it was made. But it only reflects badly on the Tories cos they were the ones directly responsible for coming up with the idea, same as this winemaker came up with the idea. It doesn't reflect badly on all Tory voters, or local Tory representatives. Only those that made the decision.

The point being made is that there's a market for it.

Well, there's always a market for everything. You gotta consier how big or small is that market, and what is the point for people buying the stuff. Like view from ireland said. It is a niche thing, and working on that outrage effect. I would consider anyone faling for it really stupid and careless and with a sick sense of humour at best, but not necessarily a nazi sympathizer or a morally depraved person. I mean, there's worse things. It's not child porn. This in no way excuses the stuff. But, it's nowhere near being this mass phenomenon, so I'm not concerned about it.

I'm not saying I blame myself - I'm saying those racists reflect poorly on me and my country. It is the society's fault, all our society, that we have not sufficiently educated people about what's decent, appropriate and respectful.

No, SCJ, no matter how well you educate people, no matter how well parents educate their kids, no matter how well teachers teach them, there will always be: murderers, rapists, paedophiles, neonazi gangs, hooligans, thieves, drug addicts, morons, idiots, and then people who simply think buying a bottle with the face of Hitler/Stalin/Mussolini on it is "cool". Because, in all different cases, from crime to addiction to simple stupidity, it's the individual choice that's the factor at the forefront really; because our societies do not teach that Hitler is cool, becoming a drug addict is wonderful, and murdering and raping is fantastic. They teach the exact opposite. That's not enough to eliminate individual responsibilities in making those choices.

The "it's society's fault" argument is the one I hear most from the leftists and those left-leaning catholic priests who love to launch a massive doomsday-preaching campaign whenever there's, say, a teenage murderer case. So I'm so allergic to it you have no idea. I know you don't mean it like that, I know - collective responsibility does not exclude individual responsibility - you're right, they coexist, I was taking that for granted. But it is important not to forget individual choices are the first thing, esp. when it's a fringe thing. That's the point here! this is so fringe it's completely individual.

If you saw these wines in every bar and restaurant and supermarket and being advertised prime time on tv and selling more than Nokia phones, then it'd be seriously about a whole society, Italy or Europe or whatever. But it's not like that and could never be like that. Una rondine non fa primavera. You can't take a single case, not even two or three, as representative. If it was 100, 1000, 10000, but not 1.

Social responsibility is educating and teaching history and ethics. That, I believe, generally is being done quite nicely, and better than only fifty or sixty years ago for instance (when large parts of Italians were still totally illiterate, for instance), both in the US and Europe. Societies have problems and always will have cos they're not utopias or Edens, simple as that. Ethics, morals, are also one ingrained trait that varies from individual to individual. You can't blame the whole of US society for the Columbine massacre (unless you're Michael Moore), cos it is individual responsibility of those who did it. Even more in far less serious cases like this one.

You've got to look at what the mainstream is, and what the values of that society are, to judge where the collective responsibilities are. Say, with Palestinians, terrorism is so overtly supported at mass level, it is obviously a social problem and responsibility (it's taught even to five-year olds, that's so obviously an indication of social responsibility). It's not a fringe thing by far. You know? So you've got to make that kind of wider assessment, not consider individual cases alone.

There's a lot more concern about media bias and disinformation cos it's so much more pervasive and effective. But it is of a different nature and origin than this.

First post ever on LGF. Hi all, and Charles, thanks for all the good work. Yours was among the first sites I linked on my blog.

I'm Italian, and I'd like to chime in on the matter of the Nazi wine. For how I see it, new to politics, in Italy there's a majority of moderate right voters (myself among them) who support the present Berlusconi government, and a vociferous leftist minority which has pervaded Italian culture. AG in Houston, thanks for sharing your experience and your praise for our government, but unfortunately it's true: declaring right-wing, pro-America, pro-Israel ideas in Italy is dangerous. Since before Gulf War II all cities sprouted hundreds of "peace" rainbow banners. I saw only a handful of USA flags, mine included, obtained through Libero, the newspaper AG mentioned (though a good sign is that the American flag is sold along with peace banners in street markets too), and there have been cases of vandalism against such places displaying Old Glory, and threats to right-wing politicians. The opposite is never true: could it be that right-wingers actually have more sense than left-wingers?...

As for the Hitler bottles, one of the few nice things about leftist culture in Italy is that it makes such things a completely marginalized phenomenon. I've seen those bottles at military fairs among military memorabilia of all ages, and only middle-aged to elderly Fascist nostalgics seem interested in them. Few young people would want to be caught dead with one. I once was working at one such fair with an American middle-aged gentleman selling WWII military items, mostly American. He bought some Mussolini wine to bring back to the States for friends and family; he was delighted about it. But most people stared at the wine booth and walked by fast, shaking their heads.

There is a big dilemma here. (A quagmire!) Such people like this Lunardelli give the right a bad name. The paradox is that currently it's the right-wing parties such as Forza Italia, the National Alliance and the Northern League which support the USA and Israel. I'd love for right-wing culture to be more successful in Italy, to contrast the mindless hatred of the USA and Israel on the part of the "progressive and democratic" left, and then I find myself in company with people such as the American nostalgic. I'm working to get in touch with all moderate right-wing people who are out there in Italy, trying to make themselves heard.

One last thought - Lunardelli really sounds like an ignorant idiot rather than a political hothead. If he wanted to produce "historical" wines, why didn't he stick with people slightly less controversial, such as Napoleon, Julius Cesar, Queen Victoria? To me it's obvious that he wanted cheap publicity and shock value, and I'll be glad if it turns against him.

Hey, zaza, are you Italian or just living in Italy? Hi! I agree with you, Europe has its defects but there are many like us. Stick with us, American and Israel friends.

AG in Houston - Re: #54

You might want to look into a new book being published by Jim Baen. "A State of Disobedience" by Tom Kratman is being released in December 2003... the first 9 chapters are available in draft form here. (Scroll to the bottom of the webmaster's little rant about the argument... he's obviously not a fan of the book, but once you read the snippet, you'll figure out why.)

@ Martin G.: I wouldn't play it down, though I also prefer to see an Europe where Hitler faces don't pay and such a wine is nothing but a marketing dead-ender because everybody prefers the Churchill, Patton and Benes bottles.

The question remains why after a summer where the specters of the Nazis had been haunting German-Italian relations, a German minister, and reckoned the successor of Hertha Däubler-Gmelin who had likened Bush to Hitler, is making that wine a diplomatic issue towards the European Presidency?

I'd say there is an eye-catching coincidence to a debate on how to deal with what had been commited under the swastika in Poland and Czech, who are standing on the EU's doorstep just right now, that is stirring up Germany at the moment.

152 zaza:

Good morning/afternoon.

You make a persuasive case, but I'm not denying that there's a personal responsibility for acts like this that go above and beyond how these wine labels reflect on the Continent.

You can choose to look at this as an isolated incident, and that's fine. But just this past year, we saw both the Romanian and Hungarian gov'ts try and downplay their respective roles during the Holocaust, and only changed their positions upon being challenged.

Similarly, France downplays its role almost everyday with their silly focus on "Le Resistance." That is not the modern legacy of the French role in WWII - Vichy is. And, btw, they released Maurice Papon from prison, for G-d's sake! Just how many Jews do you have to send off to their deaths before you become ineligible for parole in France?

There are many incidents that justify Charles' titling of this thread, IMO. I understand why you disagree, and you make strong arguments.

Um, I was just doing a Google News search on this topic when I noticed this entry:

Italian Winemaker Selling Hitler Wine To Germany
morons.org - Sep 6, 2003
... look into the Land of Questionable Thought Processes starts with Italian winemaker,

Andrea Lunardelli, who is producing a series of wine ... Adolf Hitler? ...

morons.org is a news source for Google?

zaza - well said for your comments on this thread.

Wow! that little italian dude never could have paid for this much advertising!

You should all be wondering-

When is it comming to the US? Don't think so?

For the last 50 years America has largely followed Europes lead in terms of political change and social indoctrination. The rise of the welfare state did not beginin the US, it began in Europe, the same holds true with everything here in terms of society at large. Think on it, real hard.

#156 SoCalJustice: hi again, if you're still reading this... :)

Just a couple more things: it's not a case of "choosing to see this as an isolated case". It simply IS an isolated case. So the point is not making a ludicrous comparison between one winemaker (or even ten, if there were), who is not even selling "nazi wine" but just plastering labels of dictators on bottles for gadget/outrage/cheap publicity effect (if he was just interested in nazism due to ideology, what's Stalin doing there?), to a case like the governments of Hungary and Romania taking an official stand on their national history, or physical attacks against Jews in France. There is no comparison in scope, nature and impact there. We're triviliasing the seriousness of the concern, and of those serious cases, if we lump them in with something stupid like this.

I understand anything that happens in Europe, geographically, tends to get lumped in together as a "European" trend. But Hungary and Romania are to Italy (and Britain and even to France) as foreign a country as they are to you, in the US. I have no idea what the general mindset in Hungary and Romania is regarding nazism and antisemitism etc. So I can only judge from outside as you do, from news and cases like the one you mention, which is indeed serious enough. But I don't make it a case of "Europe" if that precise instance, serious as it is, is not happening elsewhere. You know? There's no other government even attempting a revisionist line over nazism, or fascism. In Italy, whatever government has been in place, there's always been a deluge of historical attention for that period in magazines, tv programmes even in prime time, books, etc. more so in the latest years really. In Germany, it is my impression, the same, if not even more. There is no trend whatsoever towards apology or glorification, it's a joke to infer so.

Antisemitism (vandals, attacks, neonazis) on the far-right fringes on the one hand, and the "new" political incarnation of antisemitism on the left (far-left...) on the other, in bias and/or hostility to Israel on the Palestinian issue is another matter, you know how the media slant is there at international level (AP, Reuters, CNN, BBC, etc.), and the left tends to have much more power all across Europe in general, even when it's not governing, and esp. at the EU level, so that's definitely a difference with the US. It is definitely of concern, for a lot of reasons. But no need to pick irrelevant cases that have nothing to do with it.

Now, what you said before about "all Europeans" should be concerned, is true, and I agree, and even for cases of simple trivialisation of history, absolutely, but only insofar as it does indeed concern something serious constituing or threatening to constitute a common trend across different nations, and something that can be tackled at European-wide level, ie. both EU and at level of single national government coordinating efforts (ie. for violence and racism in football stadiums etc.). Still, EU or not, common trends or not, common history or not, you can't ignore national differences so blatantly and start talking of one "European" case or trend from unrelated single instances, especially when you include in that trend things that are nowhere near being a trend or serious enough to grant concern, such as this winemaker thing. You only need to, indeed, compare it to those other cases you mention to see the huge irrelevance of this.

Now take this other equally irrelevant, but a lot more disturbing, thing:

[Link: www.germaniainternational.com...]

8 pages of Hitler memorabilia. Tons more of Third Reich items. It's an American guy selling that stuff online. Based in Georgia, which is certainly famous for other much better things, so, no, it doesn't reflect any bad on Georgia at all. Just this one guy.

And I have no doubt whatsoever it caters only to a minuscule fringe of nutters and doesn't represent anything at social level, so, in that sense, it's irrelevant, no matter how we find it revolting and sick. But, you know, there's *always* been instances of that in different countries, even in those not directly affected by nazism and the Holocaust. Of course, when they happen in places that were directly affected by nazism and the Holocaust, they are indeed more disturbing. But are they mainstream? are they a threat? are they even anything new? Nope. So what is the German Justice minister going to do, open a special office dedicated to pursuing nazi collectors? I doubt that was the intention, but then, why did he bother with this one which is not even nazi collectors.

And then they take aeons to decide Hamas is a terrorist organisation... that is what I'd definitely file under "what the hell is wrong with the EU". Along with many other things that are off topic here.

#153 SoldierBlue: hi! yes I'm Italian and live in Italy. That was a nice post, and I agree with most of it, but perhaps you exaggerate some things ;)

declaring right-wing, pro-America, pro-Israel ideas in Italy is dangerous.

Well, after all that's the government majority. More like difficult, maybe, than dangerous, esp. in some circles. Besides, during the war on Iraq, it was the Vatican more than the left that shifted opinions against. That was the biggest factor.

one of the few nice things about leftist culture in Italy is that it makes such things a completely marginalized phenomenon

Yes, in a way, but they were also marginalised of themselves. Besides, when you speak of left vs. right - there's always been a moderate and antifascist right, it was the old and big Christian Democrat party and all other minor parties on the center-right (liberali, radicali, repubblicani, even the socialisti). Berlusconi's party took up representing that whole area. Even the most right wing in the coalition, AN, have detached themseleves from the far right or neofascist fringes, which are not represented in parliament. The left on the other hand up until 1989 was *all* one big Communist Party. And they're still together with the remaining hardcore communists. Still using the same old tactics and propaganda in Parliament, media, unions, academics, street demonstrations, etc.. Same anti-american propaganda as ever, same mythlogising the Palestinians, same herd-like covering up for their corruption cases. Same tarring everyone not on their side as far-right and hallucinating a fascist revival for cases like this or simply cos it's not them at the government. Same "threat to democracy!" mantra whenever they're the ones to lose elections or positions of power due to the choices of citizens, not some imaginary dictatorship by some imaginary new Benito. That's what's wrong, with Italy. The left never really evolving into a really democratic force, in spite of the name change.

I like it, nice addition to the wine collection

Where is my picture? Should I not be on a bottle. I dedicated 12 years of my life to that man. He was a poltical genuios and handled people very well. His military tatics however leave much to be desired. This is just a bottle of wine. Why get all deep on such a silly topic. Real world problems are at hand. If Albert there can see thru Hitler later on in his life. Why cant you stop the complaing of some wine company who caters to indviduals who enjoy their collections. I would buy them just because im a WW2 buff. Thats me, as for you who hate it complain to better something like enviromental issues.