i am a texan post catholic jew.

I've always liked Woolsey.

Now I like him even more. Well written and well said.

Once again, Thank you, Charles.
May G-D bless you.

My father had the husband of a disgruntled ex-employee he'd fired storm into his office one day. Regarding the nameplate on my dad's office door with a sneer, he said, "[Our surname]. Are you Jewish?"

"No," my father replied. "Just Polish."

"Yeah, well," the man stuttered, "I knew it was one of those countries."

Public courage is always inspiring, especially from people in high places when the consequences are real. But of course, Woolsey shouldn't only be described as a former CIA Director, but a former US Navy Admiral, if I'm not mistaken.

It’s not only the other two great Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam...

While I really appreciate this piece, that statement just drives me bonkers. When Islam proudly declares the Bible a forgery and has a core teaching that the Jews are to be exterminated for all of time, Muslims clearly abandon any claim to worshipping the same God as Abraham.

#6 Model4

Yep. The exact spot where I stopped reading. I don't need PC crap this early in the morning.

#6, Model4:

Point well made, and well taken.

Issa != Jesus

#4 Jackie - LOL!

And Model4, I was going to point that out. Apart from that clearly mad statement, though, this is a good piece. Methinks I shall have to send it to my friends.

daaaaaammm kinda reminds me of ich bien ien berliner "i cant spell"

Oh, and...

ROPMA!

It’s not only the other two great Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam... [Woolsey]

While I really appreciate this piece, that statement just drives me bonkers [Model 4]

Are you a fucking theology professor? This is a significant political statement of support at a time when hardly anyone is publicly standing by the Jewish community and the State of Israel. Trying to develop a reputation for ingratitude is not a good strategy in a time of war.

#12 Gary Bruce

We can do without a "statement of support" that parrot the lastest antisemitic Arab propaganda. The long-term implications of replacing "Judeo-Christian" with "Abrahamic" are clear. The goal is to delegitimize further the Jewish claim to the land of Abraham, by giving part of it away to the Christians, and use that to reduce the support Israel gets from the American Christians. So, Mr. Woolsey, thanks, but no thanks. The shit we're in is deep enough already.

one other thing to like and admire about James Woolsey:

Clinton refused to have anything to do with him.

As the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy...

12 Gary Bruce

shaddup

Ok guys, don't just nitpick one thing he got wrong out of the whole article. Just try to take in his message. Apparently nobody in here has ever said anything that was politically correct either. Seriously, c'mon people.

Anyways, whenever I meet a nazi (a real nazi) I tell them that I'm a Jew, and then I use all their silly conspiracies to taunt them, like I'll say "How does it feel to know that you are a puppet of our Jewish state? We will use the blacks and mexicans as street muscle against you filthy whites and snuff you out" and other silly crap like that. It always makes em really mad hehe.

I think that you are accrediting Woolsey with an ulterior motive that isn't there. I agree that changing the Judeo-Christian tradition to Abrahamic does weaken Jewish claims by including Islam in a group it doesn't belong, but I don't think that Woolsey was going for that. Rather, call it an indication of how far that attempt has penetrated our society.

BTW, just how long was Arab culture seperate from Jewish culture? 2500 years? 3000? To say they come from the same tradition is like saying that Japanese come from the Korean tradition.

"there is no god but allah and Mohammad is his prophet"

If Judaism and Christianity are "Abrahamic" then we all worship allah?????

No F*cking Way!!!!!!!

Not that death-cult Demon...Never!

I just realizing I was preaching to the choir here. Sorry about that.

#16 Allah-Puncher

I heard exactly the same thing:

don't just nitpick one thing he got wrong out of the whole article.

the first time I singled out the use of "Balestinian beoble" in a pro-Israeli article. I was right then, I am right now.

heh Allah Puncher
better yet if they claim to be christian tell em Jesus was a Jew i know a few wannabe white identity skinheads and it always pisses em off

#12 Gary Bruce: I suppose a phrase like "really appreciate" can come across as cold and dismissive, but that was not the spirit it was used in. I really appreciate it!

As for being a theology professor, not even close. But we're not talking about things like mixing linen and wool here. These are times of war, as you rightly point out. And from my American perspective, most of us see Christianity as a good thing, and Judiasm as a good thing, regardless of if we personally believe in either, or to what degree.

My beef with throwing Islam under the same roof is not based on being pedantic or petulant, but because it's a dangerous whitewash. In terms of warning and motivating the masses, it's like going back to when Hitler was on the march and saying the Nazi government was more or less the same as ours, because he was "democratically elected." Leaving the uninformed with the impression that your average Muslim believes in the same Biblical teachings, such as those of Jesus, just with different rituals, is a great way to lower their guard and sap their resolve.

How many times does this have to be repeated before it sinks in?: MUSLIMS HOLD THAT JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY ARE SATANIC DISTORTIONS OF AN ORIGINAL ISLAM, AND THAT ABRAHAM WAS THE FIRST MUSLIM.

I am aware of the Abrahamite garbage that has hit the best-seller's lists in the past ten years. Regardless of the academic background of the writer, these works are pure bullshit. The only link between muslims, Christians and Jews is: muslim hate.

It is time to condemn anybody, no matter what the motivation, who compares Abraham to that philandering, deceitful, plundering, murdering pedophile who imposed islam on humanity. Mohammed was a pig, and his followers are indoctrinated swine.

If he's going to write an article to appeal to the average liberal he has to say that. It's technically true and it doesn't cost anything (except to the fanatics on this site).

I'm a Jew, I think it's nitpicking. It's the kind of purity test that sinks the Left - we don't need that.

Someone said recently" "The right looks for converts, the left looks for heretics." Well, both wings have factions that look for heretics.

Another important concept Woolsey doesn't mention is that the Torah states very clearly and it is further elaborated in the Talmud that once the law is given to humans it is ours to interpret and apply, and that God can't arbitrarily step in and change the rules.

From the article:

It’s not only the other two great Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, that owe a substantial debt to Judaism, it’s the world as a whole.

Woolsey uses the term 'Abrahamic' to point out that Islam sprang from Judaism and thus owes it a debt. This is an undeniable historical fact.

Woolsey's done well with that piece, especially at a time like this when the world's full of enemies of Judaism/Western civilisation.

# 23 Camel Prophet, you are right about Islam's relationship to other Semetic religions, but Woolsey's mistake (if it is that) was minor. No need to get so upset.

#24 Good post, Yehudit. Thanx for the bit about the Torah. I didn't know that, and its a very important distinction b/w the two religions.

#13 Mr Pol

I somewhat agree with the supposition, just not in this case. As a Bible thumping Christian, I'm pleased that my religious heritage can be traced back there. I have no desire to make any claims thereof nor do any Christians I know.

#27 NTropy

30 years ago nobody took the "Balestinian beoble" seriously either.

It's a wonderful piece, thank you, Charles, for posting it.

As a side note to those who were commenting on nazis and white supremacists...I was speaking with my cousin about getting a tatoo--probably a Star of David and he suddenly mentions that he has swazstikas on his leg. It was a little shocking. He told me to forgo the Star of David because some white supremicist groups are after Jews (no lie?!) but then he assured me that his group only hated blacks and hispanics. I thought this odd, since he's of Chinese descent...

I'm still considering the Star of David tatoo, although after that I could never be buried in a Jewish cemetary. ;)

Carrie, why couldn't you be buried in a Jewish cemetary?

Actually it's not true that if you have a tattoo you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

#28 Mr Pol

(deleted)

Actually I had a response but something's bugging me and I don't know what. Whatever it is is causing me to make some really testy comments. I think I'll step away from the keyboard and call it a night.

An excellent article by Woolsey. I am heartened to read it, as I am whenever I encounter sincere solidarity with Jews, often showcased by LGFers. I remember reading an article a while ago by VDH where he mentioned that since the launch of the intifada, he often gets asked if he’s Jewish (w/ a name like victor davis hanson, no less), meant to be waged as an insult or a sign of incredulity at solidarity with the Jews. Woolsey proudly and publicly proclaims it with graceful ease. And quite frankly, as a Jew who hasn’t had the luxury of living in America all my life, I’m grateful for it.

I have only positive things to say about Woolsey’s piece, but as an aside I do think Mr. Pol has a valid argument about the ‘Judeo-Christian’ concept related to this sentiment. From the introduction of ‘Why The Jews’ by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin: “This is the most frightening time for Jews since the Holocaust. From the Jews’ perspective, the world can be divided into three kinds of countries-those that hate the Jews and want them dead, those that ignore this hatred and aid the haters, and America…In America, Jews live in unprecedented equality and security, and America is Israel’s defender. The reason is not just that America is so tolerant a society. America does not merely tolerate Jews and Judaism, it honors them. It does so in large part because the United States is the only country that has long defined itself as ‘Judeo-Christian’…America is the only Judeo-Christian country.”

#32 NTropy

Actually I had a response but something's bugging me and I don't know what. Whatever it is is causing me to make some really testy comments. I think I'll step away from the keyboard and call it a night.

I hate to admit it, but... you just proved you're smarter than I am.

#31 - I was wondering about that . . . it would make things rather awkward for Jewish Holocaust survivors.

#29
I appreciate the idea about the ink...but JEWS DONT GET TATTOOS.

It has more to do with the religion than just that they won't bury you in a Jewish cemetary. Jews (if you are a jew) are instructed not to deform our bodies....for many different reasons (i could get into it but you would think you were back at shul)

AS FOR WOOLSEY SAYING THAT AMERICANS ARE ALL JEWS NOW...IN A WAY HE IS OF COURSE RIGHT.

Like Jews, Americans have to worry about being killed constantly at home or abroad.

Like Jews, when Americans now go over seas we have to worry about being a target for hate or violence. Not because of something we did personally but just because of who we are.

Like Jews, Americans now are claimed to be wanting to take over the world, when all we really want to do is be left alone in peace.

Like Jews, Americans now are on the top of the list of Islamic fanatics.

Like Jews, Americans are now made to feel shame solely because of who they are....irrellevant of anything they actually have done.

ALL AMERICANS NOW ARE TREATED LIKE JEWS HAVE BEEN FOR CENTURIES, & FOR THIS I FEEL EVEN GREATER SADNESS.

The Bible says Ishmael was descended from Abraham and it does not equate Ishmael with all that is evil (though it does call him pere adam - 'a wild man'). While the Islamic world is turning into our enemy at present, there is still the possibility of living peacefully alongside Muslim states in the future.

There'd have to be a lot fewer Islamic countries though and quite a lot fewer Muslims. Just like there were a lot less Japanese in Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

wrathofg-d (#36)

appreciate the idea about the ink...but JEWS DONT GET TATTOOS.

Hello? I know plenty of Jews who have tattoos. And I mean plenty.

#38 zulubaby

I know plenty of Jews who have tattoos. And I mean plenty.

Well, yes, but... they shouldn't. The body is a temple and all that...

Mr Pol (#39)

I agree that they shouldn't, but it's false to state that "Jews don't get tattoos". They do, some of my friends being living proof of that.

36,, wrathofgod
you have obviously never been to the beach in tel aviv, or anywhere in non orthodox israel.. tons of people have tatoos. like it or not, it does not make one any less jewish.. please spare me the argument that tatooed jews arent REAL jews ... yawn. judging someone and calling them a non - jew becuase of his personal choices to waer a tatoo smacks or " lashon ha raa" therefore making you not only petty but wrong.
i can go to mea sharim to hear that , as well, not lgf.
Charles, im sure glad we have you , my dear!

36
and some ethiopian jews have tatoos, which i think is a cultural thing from ethiopa.
a good percentage of thse same jews are observant, and would be extremely insulted to hear that they are not regarded as jewish enough becuase of their tatoos...
although im not crazy about tatoos, and wouldnt want any of my daughters to have one, i dont see how it is any different than earings etc... and one's depth of judaism should be judged on how good a person you are....
well thats my take on it, anyway.

36wrathofgod

cc Like Jews, Americans have to worry about being killed constantly at home or abroad.
and im sad that you spend your life worrying about muslim fanatics hating you.
as an israeli jew, i know its the threat is there, but ILL BE DAMNED if im going to let those people make me feel like a victim. i prance all over my city of jerusalem, head held high, ride bussess, go to stores , go to street festivals and out for cofee, and no body or no one is going to call me a victim. period. and let any bastard come up to me and try and intimidate me about being jewish.
when im in europe, ive got my magan david chain out for all to see, and when im asked where im from, i say with all due pride" israel"

There was a time when I used to get really ticked off at the usage of the term "Judeo-Christian" because when used by many it was (and for some no doubt still is) a euphemism for "Christian [but if I don't prepend Judeo- then a bunch of the bastards will try to brand me as an antisemite]." Plus, there are some not-insignificant differences in both theology and ethics between some flavors of Judaism and some flavors of Christianityand sometimes Christian speakers will (perhaps innocently) describe notions that are clearly exclusively Christian as "Judeo-Christian."

I've largely softened my stance, because there are many who use Judeo-Christian in a more benign and even loving way, and I really should not ascribe bad motives to a speaker whose heart I cannot know.

I feel the same way about Admiral Woolsey's reference to Islam as a great Abrahamic religion that owes a debt to Judaism. First of all, while some Muslims do see Christianity and Judaism as evil distortions of Islam, this is not universal. There are Muslims who respect not only individual Christians and Jews, but also Christianity and Judaism. Why would you want to side with the Wahabbis and brand such Muslims as heretics?

Second, Admiral Woolsey's formulation is clearly and unambiguously anti-Wahabbi. He is saying that Judaism predates Islam and contributed to Islam. That would be enough to get him executed for blasphemy. or for insulting religion, in some Islamic countries.

So my sentiments are closer to Gary Bruce's and Yehudit's. Oh, and #26 Hunyadi, what Yehudit writes is in the Talmud, and rather famously so, but there are opposing notions also (as is almost always the case with Talmud), and the point of the episode that I believe she has in mind may be narrower than you might think from Yehudit's reference, so be careful about generalizing. The tale is told nicely on

reply to #23

Islam is a direct hersey of Judaism, both religions are very similar to each other in theology. However the relationship between Chirstianity and Islam is quite distant theological, Chirstianity's relationship with Judaism is a lot closer.

All very nice.

Now, when will this appear in a general interest American newspaper such as, say, the Washington Post?

I had a look in the Fatwa Bank on the subject of tattooing.

"Tattooing permanently disfigures the face and other parts of the body with colored pigment and repulsive designs. Some Arabs, especially women, are in the habit of tattooing large areas of their bodies. People of certain religious sects tattoo pictures of their deities or religious rituals on their hands and chests. The pain and agony that the person experiences from the needles piercing skin add to these images. Because of all of this, both the tattooer and the one who is tattooed have been cursed."

So now you know.

I just read that James Woolsey is on the Capitol Hill schedule this morning discussing terrorism financing
We could pick nits about what he said but he is right. Pretend that he meant "great" as in "big" and we are all in accord.
Say, now that we are all Jews, what do we do next?

Carrie,
Forget about the status of tatoos under Jewish law but picture yourself at 80 ( and you should live to be 120) with wrinkled, crepey, skin. Now imagine explaining to your grandchild how nice the tatoo looked when it was new.

There are going to be some very ugly scenes in nursing homes. ( shaking head in disgust)

Hearing "Abrahamic" being used to include Islam makes me cringe, but I can live with it.

The day I will go apeshit is when a politician says "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" to describe the US.

Tattoing is explicitly prohibited in Judaism, based on Leviticus Chapter 19 Verse 28. Although prohibited, many Jews have tattoes anyway, just like many Jews do not keep kosher or observe the Sabbath. However these infractions do not detract from the person still being Jewish. Only renouncing Judaism for another religion removes one from being Jewish.

Excellent article. Thanks Charles.

Very interesting point that the Jewish respect for law has brought the wrath of tyrants throughout history. There is much truth here, and one can see it it the hatred of Arab tyrannies for law abiding citizens in their midst.

This needs to be tempered, however, by the dislike of all native peoples to anyone different or anyone who remotely challenges the status quo.

Moreover, I wouldn't so brazenly claim that Judeo-Christian theology is the root of democracy. Democracy is, after all, a Greek word. I do not believe the Hellenist culture converted to Judaism. Similarly, prior to the diaspora there was enormous veneration for the unelected, life-serving Kings, notably David and Solomon. To say that the culture of that time was one of laws, not men, needs to be defended in more detail. The idea of rule of law was significantly forged by the pholosophes and by the founding fathers, who simply experienced first-hand the arbitrary oppression of whimsical rulers.

All in all, I agree with his points, and it is nice to see some solidarity, if only once in a blue moon.

CSPAN 1 Conference Syria, Lebanon with Daniel Pipes

live..

(so much to watch)

I'm sympathetic to what Ben F. (#44) was saying about "Judeo-Christian". I think it's glad-handing politicians, more than anybody else, who use the term.

Muslims SAY they consider the Old and New Testaments (I think they actually just mean the Torah and the Gospels, but they SAY the O.T. & N.T.) as scripture, but whenever I've talked with Muslims about it, it's become obvious that they have never read them. I ask them what they think about a scripture like John 3:16, and they brush it away, saying that's all distortions and a perversion of the "real" Gospel -- and yet, I don't think they've ever written their own version that they claim is true. (Other than that one chapter of the Koran that talks about Mary & Jesus, but that just proves my point -- they claim to embrace OUR books, but they don't, really.)

Lastly, when I defend Israel, occasionally (though not often) someone will ask me:
"WHAT, ARE _YOU_ JEWISH?"
Next time it happens I think I'll answer:
"NO, BUT MY SAVIOR IS."

(Actually I'm agnostic, but still....)

The reason is that between three and four millennia ago something happened in the Sinai among a tribe of refugees from Egyptian oppression that introduced the world to the concept of the rule of law — the idea that the law is not the whim of, but rather has its source above, those who rule.

So I guess we'll just ignore the Code of Hammurabi then?

#36 wrathofg_d

I think that's overstating the case a bit. Yes, as an American, I do feel a bit of anxiety when I contemplate the idea of going abroad, and there are places - particularly in the middle east and south asia - that I would probably cross off my list, but at the same time, I certainly don't fear the systematic mass murder of millions of Americans as happened to Jews last century. Yes, terrorists can attack us. The unthinkable could happen and we could lose a major city, but we have a strong homeland and I know that anyone who did something like that would pay a terrible, terrible price.

(That said, if Hillary ever becomes prez, I'm outta here.)

BTW, when I was a kid in CCD (that cathoic Sunday School, for those of you what don't know), we learned a good deal about Jewish traditions. Our teachers were often at pains to explain to us that Christian religions have Jewish roots. When I learned that there were Christians who hated Jews, my first response was, "But don't those people know that if they're Christian, they're Jews too?" I guess you can only have that kind of clarity when you're a kid.

(Of course, it wasn't until I was much older and started reading about things like the "Christian Identity" movement that I started to understand the mental gymnastics that some people would go to to try to deny their Jewish heritage.)

The respect for law and good old testament black and white reasoning is why my husband and I converted to Judaism. I was raised Christian, and went to catholic highschool, and my husband's father is nonpracticing Jewish, and my husband went to catholic high school for the quality of education. As we began life together as a married couple, well, I can only say G-d drew us to Judaism and gave us -plenty- of signs to the effect that it was the right path for us. Now our kids are in synagogue and attending Jewish day school, learning Hebrew. We've never been more blessed or closer to G-d in our lives and are extremely happy with our lot in life== l'shana tova!

Although Islam claims to be the original form of "Abrahamic" religion and that the other two are the corruptions, I know of no sources earlier than the 6-7th century CE to back up that claim. Whereas both Christianity and Judaism can provide ancient text material to back up their claims of antiquity - including radiologically dated documents.

Religions that I would place in the same family as Judaism and Christianity would include Gnostics, LDS (Mormons), Samaritans, Karaites.

It is interesting that most of these sects differ mainly in what precise texts/traditions they regard as orthodox.

Since Islam shares no scriptures in common with normative Christianity or Judaism, but does share certain constructs and doctrines, it is a very remote relative.

I have said before that in my opinion, Islam is in the same family of religions as Christianity and Judaism in the same sense that Satanism also belongs to the same family.

i.e. It is a degenerate and corrupted bastardization.
Its claims of "Abrahamic" authenticity are as bogus as its prophet - The rapist-pedophile and ruthless, mass-murdering bandit and warlord known as Mohammed.

When I was growing up the only women who had tattoos were strippers; that idea still colors (inks?) my viewpoint.

"Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."
Leviticus 19:28 (NIV)

You can be buried in a Jewish cemetary with tattoos:
[Link: ohr.edu...]

Back OT: Woolsey is a Democrat, served in the US Army, also as Undersecretary of the Navy (Gary Bruce #5). He rightly refers to the War on Terror as WW4 (and we're 3-0 in fighting WW's).

Adam #55 - good point, but it wouldn't fit in with the speech (it's an inspirational speech, not a documentary, give the guy a break for 'poetic' license). There are records of laws predating even Hammurabi (~1750 BCE); compare to the date of the Torah (2448 / 1312 BCE). You would think that as a Rhodes scholar and Yale Law graduate Woolsey would know that Shamash the god of justice (or the sun god) gave the law to Hammurabi.

Um, lizzy-

All Jews are "real Jews." Saying that something is against the Torah or Jewish tradition is not saying that by doing it you become non-Jewish.

andreaSF-

I just started reading a wonderful book- From Central Park to Sinai, by Roy S. Neuberger. It's an excellent autobiography of a Baal Teshuvah (Jew who returned to G-d and the Torah).

I'm so glad to hear that you found the beauty and majesty of Torah life. There are so many Jews who grow up in an Orthodox enviornment without feeling the mitzvos, just seeing them as obligations to discharge while trying to live the rest of their lives. That's why I love Baalei Teshuvah and converts like you- you really see the beauty of it all, and how Torah is meant to bring us close to G-d. May G-d grant you a sweet and meaningful year!

The facts are that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all Abrahamic religious, and that each group at some time in history has acted like s__ts about it doesn't change those facts.

Don't Muslims have a tradition (that doesn't seem to be much in force these days) of calling both Jews and Christians "Children of the Book"? I always thought that this dhimmi business not withstanding, the old Arab-Muslim empire treated Jews as a minority a lot better than the Christians were at the same time in history, and I only thought that Christians were on the s**t-list on account of the Crusades. Muslims also claim that Jews are only on the s**t-list because of Israel, although the treatment of Jews in Arab lands under Ottoman rule is more arguable.

I remember an Egyptian friend taking me to a campus screening of "Mohammed, Messenger of God", which was on the restricted list from some Muslims for depicting Mohammed at all, even though all we see is the shadow of the nose of his camel, while other Muslims were taking their non-Muslim friends to see it they way Baptists take their friends to see a Francis Schaeffer flick. A big part of the film was the Prophet giving his fealty to an Ethiopean (i.e. Christian) king because the Ethiopeans were "children of the Book" (i.e. the Jewish-Christian Bible).

And what of the fight over "West Bank" holy sites? Isn't Hebron home to Abraham's tomb. It seems that Jerusalem being holy to Muslims is one of those made up things (it is not Mecca or Medina), although you could stay that the Christians stole Jerusalem as a holy site from the Jews, but then the Jews store Jerusalem from whatever pagans -- the original Jewish holy site was perhaps up on a mountain where Moses was told to take his shoes off or perhaps in a tent in the desert.

But as to the fight over Hebron, the Jews claim Abraham through descent from Isaac, and the Arabs claim Abraham through descent from Ishmael, and not only do the Arabs think of themselves as sons and daughters of Ishmael, the Jews thought of the Arabs the same way and used the disinheriting of Ishmael in the Abraham account as a rationalization for their claim to the land (in ancient times) and displacement of the Ishmaelites and others from that land.

My own gripe with Islam is that most religions in the modern world have come to grips with the notion that one's own religion is not the only game in town and that some other man's religion that one once depicted as devil worship might have some good in it. Call it liberalism, call it multiculturalism, call it modernism, but I call it Roman Catholicism, which in my generation has belatedly turned from its Jew-hating ways.

In any negotiation there has to be some kind of sacrifice of one thing in exchange for something one values more. I don't see any of that in the Israel-Palestinian negotiation. For example, perhaps Israel could give up any claim on Jerusalem, which would be an enormous sacrifice given the centrality of Jerusalem to the Jewish religion. In exchange, Israel could have Hebron.

Why would I consider this a fair negotiation, in effect requiring Jews around the world to modify their religion? Well, if the Muslim world were to part with Hebron, which they claim to be holy along with everthing else they laid hands on, it is in a way as big a sacrifice for them to give up Hebron given the emphasis Muslims place on Abraham as the Jews giving up Jerusalem. Moreover, it would be a signal that the Palestinian Arabs recognized that the Jews are a people and a religion, and it would be giving them one small thing, sacrificed from among the many things the Muslims want, as a tiny recognition towards a non-Muslim people.

Before my Jewish and Israeli friends slam me for offering to trade Jerusalem for Hebron, the rhetorical point I am making is that I don't think that the Palestinians would even give up Hebron if it meant they had all of Jerusalem to manage as they saw fit and all of the claims of how Jerusalem is as important a holy site to Muslims as Mecca and Medina. Why, because Islam is not living in the modern world and willing to concede the absolute centrality of Islam and to make one sliver of a negotiating concession that acknowledged the legitimacy of Jews and their religion.

The reason I was so upset about the Taliban using the Buddha statues for artillery target practice was not because of some stone statues which can always be recarved, but because of the contempt this held for the people (i.e. Buddhists) to whom these statues were important.

To those (Yehudit, Gary Bruce, Ben F and others) who claim to have no problem with "Abrahamic" designation: with all due respect, such complacency is wrong. I'm 100% with Model4 and Mr Pol here. The point (which you, again in all due respect, seem to be missing or ignoring) is: this is not a theological matter. This is a political one.

"Abrahamic" horseshit is just another manifestation of Islam's essential motto and modus operandi: "what's mine is mine, what's yours is mine too." In other words, part and parcel of jihad.

This doesn't mean anyone is "searching for heretics". Our allies does not stop being them just because they may be wrong on some counts. But we do have a right (indeed, an obligation), to point out when they are being wrong, and dangerously so.

#55 Adam--

Is it clear that Hammurabi was subject to his code?

#52 Yair--

I take Admiral Woolsey's point to be that the notion that man is subject to higher law is Jewish. This is not the whole of democracy, but a part of it.

In Judaism, the legislation is divine but (as the famous tale I point to in #44 has it) interpretation of the legislation is by the majority vote of the sages. So in this sense it is not democratic, any more than having a judiciary in a secular state makes the state democratic

But the point that Woolsey was reaching for, I think, is that in Judaism even the King was subject to the law. Torah is quite explicit on this point. The determinations of the American judiciary that Presidents Nixon and Clinton were not above the law are, it seems, well grounded in Judeo-Christian tradition.

#63 Q--

I have no respect for those Muslims who have the attitude that you describe. But I hesitate to tar all Muslims with that brush; I do not think that it is fair to do so. Admittedly, taquiya makes it hard to sort the parties out, but that doesn't justify a blanket condemnation IMO.

Ben F (#64):

Due to a multitude of factors, the hateful poisonous garbage of today has become the dominant strain in Islam. Moreover, the position stating that it actually is "pure", original Islam seems to me rather well grounded ("by their fruits..." etc).

Again, it is not theology per se that matters here, it is politics fueled by it. By making no meaningful distinction between the two, the mainstream Islam makes the former a fair target.

61
eliyaik
i have been called a " shiksa " and spat at by haredic Jews NEAR not IN mea sharim because i wear trousers and don't cover my head. this happened when i was with my two little girls... going to a public kupat cholim to see a children's doctor( rechov anaviim, to be exact ,, not even the heart of mea sharim...
to them , im simply not a Jew because i dont do all the mitzvot, nor am i tsnuah.
when this incident happened no body said anything or apologised.
there are people in this country that do not see anyone who does not practice Judaism as they do as non Jews.
i know
i live in Israel, and quite attuned to what happens here in Jerusalem....
it is a point of contention between certain haredim , and non religious,,, dont believe me? go to the junction of bar ilan street on a Saturday in your car, and you'll be spit at , and called a goy, ditto if you have a tattoo.

as much as i love my country , and my countrymen, there is that faction here. as with any country and any religion, we are not perfect here. im sorry to air our national dirty laundry, but so be it.
sorry

Speaking as a Jew by birth and faith, I was greatly pleased to read Mr. Woosley's column. I especially liked the part where he describes the taking of the Torah scroll around the synagogue - he clearly gets it.

When I was in school long ago, I was taught Judaism gave birth to the other two monotheistic religions, Christianity and Islam. I don't see what the big deal is in recognizing this. Children sometimes go astray, sometimes far astray. That doesn't mean they don't have parents.

61
i worked with wonderful haeredim in my old company.. they would say that calling a woman a shiksa and spitting on her is not only lashon ha rah, but a sin, a chet ,,, and yet they are haredim... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
i would never do that to anyone,, espcially not an ima walking to the doctor with hre kids.. explin it to me please.

"Judeo-Christian" derives from a common acceptance of certain foundations -- The Ten Commandments, the Prophets, the Psalms . . .

Islam does not accept these, or include them in its scripture.

One might recognize a common "Judeo-Christian" tradition, but there is no such thing as a "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" or "Abrahamic" tradition.

That new notion is just another bit of aren't-we-all-nice twaddle.

#67 Doug Levene (and ploome and others)

Children sometimes go astray, sometimes far astray. That doesn't mean they don't have parents.

I Found this today while searching for other things, I thought it was applicable here as well as some other recent threads:

I thankfully claim the heritage bequeathed to the faith I hold from Judaism. I claim the message of the prophets and the remarkable succession of the younger over the older brother that unveils a steady theme through the pages of the Hebrew Bible. I believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, the Suffering Servant, the scion of the tribe of Judah born in Bethlehem.

But I remember that Jesus taught us that "the kingdom of heaven is within you (plural)." I remember that Jesus told Pilate, "If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." I remember that Jesus clearly taught us that pre-eminence pre-eminently means service, and most certainly not domination. I remember that Jesus chided two disciples who asked for prominence. I remember that Jesus told His disciples to tell good news, rather than bad news. I remember that Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount proclaimed a topsy turvy ethic that Christians have found impossible to follow. It said bless your enemies, do good to those who despitefully use you. I remember that Jesus taught His disciples a practice of religion that was not ostentatious–pray not around the flagpole or at a demonstration, but pray in your closet.

I am troubled that Christianity often seems arrogant rather than humble. I am troubled at the close identification of Protestantism and patriotism, that narrows the circle of God’s preference to American Christians. This sounds suspiciously selfish and solipsistic. I would say to fellow Christians, what if Christianity seemed much less "in your face," and much more "in your heart." It seems an insult to Jesus that the word supersessionism ever was claimed by His followers. It tells of an attitude I find offensive and reject. The Apostle Paul may have sensed this attitude when he reminded early Christians that "the gifts and call of God are irrevocable." God did not revoke the covenant with Israel, because God does not revoke covenants. He fulfills them. How then, this will work out in the end you and I may have some inferences about. But the story is God’s to tell, and we are the dramatis personnae only.

Stuart D. Robertson

The rest if the "sermon" is here

#65 Q

The Islamist strain of Islam is the dominant one today, no question. But look at the sermon that Brantjen posts in #70. I don't think you would find many Christian preaching these types of sermons prior to WWIIs.

Things can change.

The libretto for the 1st movement of Shostakovich's 13th symphony:

BABI YAR

By Yevgeni Yevtushenko
Translated by Benjamin Okopnik, 10/96

No monument stands over Babi Yar.
A steep cliff only, like the rudest headstone.
I am afraid.
Today, I am as old
As the entire Jewish race itself.

I see myself an ancient Israelite.
I wander o'er the roads of ancient Egypt
And here, upon the cross, I perish, tortured
And even now, I bear the marks of nails.

It seems to me that Dreyfus is myself.
The Philistines betrayed me - and now judge.
I'm in a cage. Surrounded and trapped,
I'm persecuted, spat on, slandered, and
The dainty dollies in their Brussels frills
Squeal, as they stab umbrellas at my face.

I see myself a boy in Belostok
Blood spills, and runs upon the floors,
The chiefs of bar and pub rage unimpeded
And reek of vodka and of onion, half and half.

I'm thrown back by a boot, I have no strength left,
In vain I beg the rabble of pogrom,
To jeers of "Kill the Jews, and save our Russia!"
My mother's being beaten by a clerk.

O, Russia of my heart, I know that you
Are international, by inner nature.
But often those whose hands are steeped in filth
Abused your purest name, in name of hatred.

I know the kindness of my native land.
How vile, that without the slightest quiver
The antisemites have proclaimed themselves
The "Union of the Russian People!"

It seems to me that I am Anna Frank,
Transparent, as the thinnest branch in April,
And I'm in love, and have no need of phrases,
But only that we gaze into each other's eyes.
How little one can see, or even sense!
Leaves are forbidden, so is sky,
But much is still allowed - very gently
In darkened rooms each other to embrace.

-"They come!"

-"No, fear not - those are sounds
Of spring itself. She's coming soon.
Quickly, your lips!"

-"They break the door!"

-"No, river ice is breaking..."

Wild grasses rustle over Babi Yar,
The trees look sternly, as if passing judgement.
Here, silently, all screams, and, hat in hand,
I feel my hair changing shade to gray.

And I myself, like one long soundless scream
Above the thousands of thousands interred,
I'm every old man executed here,
As I am every child murdered here.

No fiber of my body will forget this.
May "Internationale" thunder and ring
When, for all time, is buried and forgotten
The last of antisemites on this earth.

There is no Jewish blood that's blood of mine,
But, hated with a passion that's corrosive
Am I by antisemites like a Jew.
And that is why I call myself a Russian!

Thom -
Am I reading that correctly that although the Communist Russians killed Jews, he is still a Communist and awaits the day they end their anti-semitism?

Israelite at the beggining, is that Jesus?

#73 Robert Brandtjen.

Background on the rarely mentioned attrocity at Babi Yar:

[Link: www.zchor.org...]

Shostakovich used this text for a variety of reasons. Amongst those reasons was to condemn, in the harshest terms possible in then-Stalinist Russia, the traditional anti-semitism of Russia.

The poem, the symphony, is a simple statement of empathy: how can a true human being sit back and watch these horrors without feeling the misery of these murdered, tortured Jews?

This isn't Clinton/the Left and his/their crocodile tears. This is empathy in its full and awesome immediacy and force.

On one level, certainly, this is just a Russian condemning Russian anti-semitism, and lamenting that Communist Russia fully embraced anti-semitism as state policy while simultaneously proclaiming such canards as "worker and human rights."

On an entirely higher level, I see that this is a human being lamenting anti-semitism, and its vicious and bitter fruits, while such human institutions as the UN cynically proclaim human rights while vigorously proclaiming in effect that Jews must die, and have no right to exist.

The last stanza, of course, is that gentiles who support Jews are just as hated as the Jews themselves.

At least I'm hated in good damn company.

I don't listen to this symphony very often. It is simply too powerful and tragic for me.

In the second stanza I think it's clear that it is Jesus who is being referenced. Although I doubt that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans.

Yair, you wrote:

Moreover, I wouldn't so brazenly claim that Judeo-Christian theology is the root of democracy

Well, this is a quibble, but it's certainly one of the roots of democracy. Democracy was born in ancient Greece, but the ancient Greeks certainly did not believe that all individuals are endowed with inalienable rights. They practiced infanticide, for instance. The idea that even poor, crippled, ugly, or stupid people had a soul and were loved by God would have struck the beauty-loving Greeks as absurd. That's the Judeo-Christian part of democracy. I would argue that the civil rights and feminist movements began in the West and could have begun nowhere else because they are the culmination of the Judeo-Christian belief that all are equal in the eyes of God. (Please note: when I say "feminist" I mean basic rights for women, not the cult of victimization and special pleading that has florished in some circles since the '70's).

Re: the "Abrahamic" religions. There's a very interesting article in the September Commentary, which blows a hole in the idea that Muslim-run Spain was some sort of multicultie paradise. It also challenges the commonly held idea that Islam and Judaism are more alike than Judaism and Christianity.The author, Hillel Halkin writes:

,...,Christianity's quarrel with Judaism, while more bitter, was also, from the Jewish point of vew, more to the point and less demeaning, since Christianity understood every word of the Jewish Bible to be divinely given and true.,..., Because Christianity, in this sense, never denied the Jews their own reality, the Jewish-Christian argument was profound and focused.

But Islam and the Qur'an did deny Jewish reality, right from it's very beginning.,..., To thinking Jews, this made Islam not a less, but a more preposterous faith than Christianity. If Christianity was an affront to rational monotheism, Islam was an insult to human intelligence itself, since who could take seriously a religion that, having come into existence 2,000 years after its parent faith, accused the parent of counterfeiting a past of which it now claimed to possess the true version?

To thinking Jews, this made Islam not a less, but a more preposterous faith than Christianity. If Christianity was an affront to rational monotheism,

And that, spoken outloud in Spain in 1500, would have been enough to lose your head over.

#75 Donna V

The idea that even poor, crippled, ugly, or stupid people had a soul and were loved by God would have struck the beauty-loving Greeks as absurd. That's the Judeo-Christian part of democracy.

That's an interesting point Donna.

In general the fact that Judaism is far more closely related to Christianity than to Islam is a consequence of the fact that not only do they share a large part of the same scripture, even if they interpret some parts of it differently, but that Christianity began as a Jewish Messianic sect. i.e. its founder and earliest members were Jews.

Islam OTOH was founded by a guy (or a goy) who had met a few Jews and killed a few Jews, but otherwise had no connection with Judaism.

It reminds me of what they used to say about canned chicken soup: that the only connection to real chicken was that a chicken had once walked past the soup factory.