Pathetic!

Oh, I can't wait until names start getting named in this one.

sounds right for a Democrat

oy....

Dean is great, he's the man with the plan, he's for real change......

hey, am I getting paid per word, or can I stop with the platitudes already?

OT

Bill O'Reilly is discussing the French honorary citizenship to cop killer Mumia Abul Jamal right now! At least someone in the mainstream media is giving the story attention.

Classic. Not surprising in hindsight - look at the sockpuppet behaviour by LLL posters HERE.

GRASS ROOTS! well green roots anyway

Desperation makes you stupid.

WAY OT

But did anyone besides me see that BALD EAGLE that landed on the field prior to the ALCS??

I tuned in late. Was that staged?

now that I think about it, how do I get in on some of that Dean cash? Maybe if enough of us did it we could suck up all his money. I know I need it more than he does.

I don't like the sound of this item. We're all getting paid for this after the Little Green IPO, right? Don't you dare jerk me around, Johnson!

#8 spidly

GRASS ROOTS!

Extending deep into the manure.

does that make him a TROLL MASTER JUST WONDERING

I don't see the difference between what Dean is doing, and paying people to hold up campaign signs. Same idea, different medium. From what I would guess, only bloggers / surfers that agree with the Dean platform would participate...

The technical term for this is PAYOLA!. We need to hang this tag on Dean.

Of course the best part is that Karl Rove is probably writing checks to get Dean nominated too! When's the first primary, January? I wouldn't be suprised to see nothing left of the winning nominee but a thigh bone with chunks of charred and ragged meat sizzling behind a podium.

Lots of people get paid to call in talk radio shows, post at forums and show up at demonstrations. Nothing new with this tactic.

"Dean is the name, and money is the game. Would you care to play?"

Most of ism folk are paid by creepy orgs. Do you think they would or could do that for free? They woudn't and couldn't, at least not for long.

Where do I sign on?

I want to be a professional internet surfer.

lol...too late goof, my wife already holds that title.

Thanx for the "hat tip" Charles... ;-)

So, does anyone want to guess which one of Charles' regular "trolls" might be on Dean's payroll???

VFI?
Convent Babe?
Gordon?
h?
....

How about Osama Mama lovin' Edward?
-or-
Where are my "globular clusters" Yair????

I'd be willing to bet that Oliver Willis is one of the bloggers Dean is paying. I started checking out Oliver's site after he trashed Michael Totten for criticizing some lefty moonbats. Oliver basically wanted Michael to shut up because he was doing the right wing's dirty work.

So I thought it might be fun to troll around in Oliver's comments and trash him and Dean for a while. I confess to getting quite insulting. I think it became too much for him to take.

He banned me shortly after I suggested he change is tag line from "Like Kryptonite to Stupid" to "Like Stickum to Stupid" because of his blind loyalty to the Democrats. I don't think he thought that was funny.

[Link: www.oliverwillis.com...]

Dean's ballon will soon deflate.

It's clear that in order to preserve the US and other civilized societies a war on terrorism will need to be pursued for many years. With Dean or any other Democrat currently running in the White House the WOT will fail. So the world as we know it survives and these idiots go away, a la Gray Davis, or it is all over.
The Democratic Party in its present incarnation was born around 1972. Hopefully, it will die next year.

There's already been some delicious tension and mistrust brewing between the Clark and Dean supporters on DU. Deanies have had the upper hand so far, 'cause raising funds for the GOP and W just a couple of years ago hasn't exactly gone over like hotcakes. Can't wait to see the accusations of payola start being flung around with the standard issue fecal matter.

Siberian #15,

From what I would guess, only bloggers / surfers that agree with the Dean platform would participate...

Maybe. But I how many bloggers that portray themselves as independent minded would be willing to admit that they are getting paid by a politician?

#14 jimmytheclaw 10/8/2003 05:38PM PST
does that make him a TROLL MASTER...

If he's the Troll master, then I'm the friggin' Gate Keeper.

Dean pays bloggers and such to pump up his campaign?

This is horrible! Absolutely terrible, mindnumbingly destitude of any ethical sensibility whatsoever. Why, the depths of moral turpitude! The very heights of shallowness and insensitivity....

How much did he say he pays again?

(Hey, I'd LOVE to see Dean get the Dimocratic nomination, if only because he has about zilch chance against Bush)

Hell, I would bet that Rummy pays Frank at IMAO.Or he should.

***********WARNING*********
Do NOT, I repeat NOT, actually do this. Link provided ONLY for entertainment purposes, and is not an activity recommended nor endorsed by Model4. Reader assumes own personal risk and responsibility.

Dean isn't paying ME...

Perhaps it's because he doesn't realize the opportunities I can give him.

Or perhaps he read the post where I called him a "fuckin' hippie wet dream from Vermont".

#32

HOLY GUACAMOLE.

If have been know to drain more than a glass or two blindness-inducing swill on occasion.

If I were to indulge in this venture, I would be paying homage to the mighty Kohler Cadet 30 mins. after imbibing diluted Corona shots.

Christ, let's at least make it a game. How about we watch a Hillary speech and quaff a pint every time she sounds shrill?

#15 siberian

"I don't see the difference between what Dean is doing, and paying people to hold up campaign signs. Same idea, different medium. From what I would guess, only bloggers / surfers that agree with the Dean platform would participate... "

Not much difference, I agree. But the point is that campaigns that pay people to go to demonstrations and stand by the roads holding signs WANT the public to belive that those are just selfless volunteers motivated by their candidate's ideas. It'd have way less effect otherwise. The question is how many people are endorsing views they would not normally support for money? Sounds pretty dishonest and I hope this gets publicized by Instapundit or Drudge.

Don't specifically have any names, but checking out some LLL would be a target-rich environment. Kos, for example, is a self-professed Dean supporter. Some posters there might fit the bill. And Dean's website probably has paid posters.

Maybe Atrios or Calpundit or some of their posters. Steve Gilliard claims he felt uncomfortable being a mouthpiece for Dem candidates, but seems to be a flaming Deenie.

In fact, I used to troll his site and tell him that Dean's campaign was in a Vietnamish-quagmire whenever he claimed that Iraq was a quagmire. He used to bunch his panties over that. But since he called me an idiot and I told him to kiss my ass, I haven't been back.

#33 Kim

IS EVERYTHING ABOUT GUNS WITH YOU????????? I think all guns should be CONFISCATED. They ARE EVIL incarnate.

Umm, anyway... I really enjoyed your screed pertaining to African responsibilty today.

Rock on you grouchy bastard.

BTW, I took your advice about a piece for my somewhat reluctant wife. I am currently searching the People's Republik of NJ's Gun Shops for a nice SW Airweight .38 for her.

Totally OT, but I just have to share.

I'm at Kramerbooks bookstore in Washington DC. Michael Moore's latest piece of trash, "Dude, Where's My Country" caught my eye. I open it, and look at the first dedication:

for Rachel Corrie
will I ever have her courage
will I let her death be in vain

Of course, judging by his girth, I'm not surprised Mike has a soft spot for pancakes.

Enjoy your evening!

What is a professional surfer? Who's going to pay me?

#38

Geez, I wish he would have her courage. I'd love to see that lying, sanctimonious lard-ass go up against a D9.

Payola-Gate

my other guess for what they're call this is

pay for troll

Richard W. Murphy, a Council on Foreign Relations senior fellow, is taking reader questions on Israel's bombing of Syria and the reorganization at the Palestinian Authority.

on the nytimes.com middle east forums

i say dont feed or pay the trolls. hmmm since paid trolls are like unwanted spam can charles sue em for waisting his bandwidth

#15

I have to go with Catbert on this one...whether you are getting paid to promote Dean on a website or at a political rally, a shill is still a shill.

We can now start referring to "Dr." Dean as "Patent Medicine Salesman" Dean.

You guys are thinking too small. What "top-tier" blogger inexplicably pimps Dean every chance he gets? Who could it be?

To fold, spindle and mutilate one of the best lines from a Mad Max movie:

Stats are just a question of money - how high do you want the hit counter to go?

As mentioned earlier - Howard 'Trollmaster' Dean. Has a nice ring to it.

Did they say he pays people to cause trouble at other websites, or did Charles just make that part up?

Everyone who actually read the article raise your hands!

I'm not for Dean, but this could be misconstrued.

Clark has an official campaign blog, and Cameron Barrett has moved to Little Rock to run it. I assume he's paid staff. Nothing wrong with that. I presume that Dean's official blogger Matthew Gross is also on salary.

It would indeed be wrong if there was some under-the-table payola to bloggers who are masquerading as independent. I'm not aware of anything like that, but it would be good for the Dean campaign to issue a clarification

Now, I think many people here may have been too hasty to assume that Dean is an idotarian barking moonbat LLL. His wife is Jewish, so he sympathizes with Israel. Granted, he was against the war on principle, but now we're in it, he says send more troops and finish it. Also, he's pro-gun.....

/

/

Oh hell, you know what keep the frickin' check I can't stand your smug punk know-it-all attitude or your warmed over but same old same old tax and spend socialistic policies.

I'm with Ian. I believe the law professor may be the biggest troll on the dole based on posts like these.

We report, you decide.

Sorry, based on posts like these:

HOWARD DEAN IS A POLITICAL GENIUS

Howard Dean might well be able to beat him...

Howard Dean may be a bigger threat to Bush...

#46 Ian....interesting conjecture...indeed.

Of course, possibly a baseless slur -

Sent him a tip to this post, and my commentary on the issue at my blog. Let's see if the issue gets highlighted, at all...

People -- I sincerely doubt that Glenn Reynolds is on the Dean payroll.

Given that Charles is engaging in inaccurate attacks against Dean, maybe he's on Bush's payroll? (Joke, but just as grounded in fact as the idea that Dean pays people to troll).

Still no mention of pay-per-trolling in the article.

Charles owes the Dean folks an apology.

#40

sanctimonious lard-ass

best moore description I've seen

I'll admit it. I've been a Dean operative from the get go. :-)

Dear "Confused": I'll be apologizing any moment now. In the meantime, I suggest you hold your breath and wait for it.

Charles, read the darn article. Now read it again. Dean is paying bloggers to work on his website. The forces really aren't allied against you on the grassy knoll.

"Professional Internet surfers" are being paid just to surf Dean's website?

"Yes, Howard! We're doing our best to keep the people who visit your website excited about your campaign! They seem pretty excited already (after all, they're at your site), but we'll continue to work tirelessly for you! We're surfing back and forth, forth and back, on howarddean.com! Yes, master!"

It's a real skill to read whatever you like into what some might think is a pretty damning statement. Some might even call what you're doing, "spinning."

If it's just a badly written article, then the Dean camp should clarify things, as Rick said above. But my reading skills are just fine, thank you.

I suggest you continue holding your breath.

Where does it mention trolling?

You're just making stuff up. Nothing in the article even hints that he hires people to troll. You just made that up.

His campaign has professional bloggers to run his site.

Your reading skills are far inferior to your imagination. No reasonable, non-dittohead would reach the conclusion that hiring professional bloggers to work on his site means that he hires people to troll other sites.

I'll hold my breath waiting for you to rename this site Freerepublic II.

Turning blue yet?

Nope. Your intent is to smear Dean instead of getting at the truth, so this is to be expected.

Of course, no other major web site (drudge, instapundit, winds of change) is going to pick up this "scandal" because your allegations are simply untrue. If this were true, Reynolds et al would pick this up in a heart beat.

The fact remains you made an accusation without a shred of evidence. In some quarters that might lessen your credibility. In LGF land, where people believe only what they want to believe, it shouldn't hurt you though.

But you know, it is interesting that as soon as I post an entry about Dean paying "professional Internet surfers" to go around and spin things his way, an anonymous troll shows up and ...

You can guess the rest.

I wonder what they pay you to be a Whore for Howard?

I'm guessing the usual Democratic Party currency: packs of generic cigarettes, free drink coupons from Indian casinos, a no-questions-asked extension of your "student" Visa ....

Are you borrowing a tin foil hat from the nice folks at ANSWER?

Tell lies about a major presidential candidate, and you're going to get some attention.

And no, I don't work for the campaign.

And you still haven't explained where the reference to trolling in the article is.

Oh wait--it was in your imagination!

There you go, Charles. You chum the waters and the Dean professional surfers come swarming to perform damage control.

Nicely done.

#65

Of course, this site isn't a whore for the Republican party now, is it?

When movie studios paid people to pretend to be 14-year-old girls gushing over Ben Affleck in AOL chat rooms to promote a movie, that was pretty slimy.

This doesn't strike me as any different.

If the people being paid wouldn't be behaving like this on their own it grossly dishonest behavior. And if some lunatics actually do act like this on their own recognizance, why the hell waste good money on useful idiots?

Hey can somebody go post this article over at Daily Kos? I've been banned from there for thinking independently. This article will knock their birkenstocks off!

Confused (indeed):

Of course, no other major web site (drudge, instapundit, winds of change) is going to pick up this "scandal" because your allegations are simply untrue.

The Boston Herald article about Howard's Whores is no longer online, but there is a lengthy exerpt is here:

The testy rivalry between presidential hopefuls John F. Kerry and Howard Dean has spilled over to Kerry's new campaign Web log, which has been swamped with mocking messages from Dean backers ... Such comments irked Kerry supporters, who responded with a volley of blistering blog entries. ‘Until this stops, I am going to raise hell on the Dean boards, and I encourage all Kerry people to join me,’ ranted a blogger known as ‘Pocki,’ who added angrily, ‘(Dean) is a traitor anyway.’

A traitor? If I were you, Confused, I'd get over to Kerry's blog and raise some Hell, pronto!

Here's one of your hired trolls guys.

And please report this to every media and large website you can find. Tell them that you'll stake your personal credibility on this story having legs. Please.

#71

People fighting on the Internet is news?

The issue here is whether Dean is paying people to troll other websites. No one has provided evidence of that.

Of course, the idea that Dean pays people to run his campaign blog, which receives mucho traffic, is too simple.

Must. find. conspiracy.

Hey. Just want to let the pols know that I am definitely for hire. I don't really care who I'm supposed to support; email me with a price and we'll talk.

heh.

I haven't seen spinning like this since Lance Armstrong rocketed away from the peloton on the Col du Galibier.

Has anyone picked up this story yet Charles?

The only spinning going on is yours.

Email Glenn Reynolds and Matt Drudge. See what they say.

Still waiting for a logical argument from you instead of conclusory, self-congratulatory proclamations with no evidence or reasoning behind them.

Oh well. I suppose if Gephardt gets stronger in the polls you'll run a hatchet piece on him too.

Will you be embarrassed when NO ONE ELSE ON THE PLANET thinks there's a story here?

Nah, because LGF is right and the rest of the planet are idiotarians.

Charles, I've got no brief for Dean, but Confused seems to be right. If you read the quote again, "professional Internet surfers" seems to be Alexander Bolton's (the author of TheHill article) definition of "bloggers."

...paying "bloggers" or professional Internet surfers to keep the enthusiasm up on his website.

Note the "or" in the original, not the "and" you use in your link.

One of Dean's 'paid bloggers' has responded to the confusion that the Hill article started. As soon as he heard about it last night he posted the following on the Official Dean Blog:

Hey all,

The Hill article is confusing. The only paid bloggers are me and Zephyr-- which the author must be referring to.

We certainly don't pay anyone to post on the threads, which is how some people read the article. When you have up to 2,200 comments a day, that would be an incredible waste of money.

Posted by Mathew Gross at October 8, 2003 12:53 AM

It seems to be a step or two away from a pyramid scheme.

First, Dean hires some bloggers. They solicit donations to the Dean campaign, for which they get a small cut. They also solicit the services of other bloggers, who in turn solicit donations.

It will either hurt the credibility of Dean and his supporters, or become a state-of-the-art campaign funding practice.

Model4:

Of course the best part is that Karl Rove is probably writing checks to get Dean nominated too!

I've been thinking the same thing. But given that Dean is the greatest thing to happen to the Democratic Party since George McGovern, his campaign can only be the work of Richard Mellon Scaife and the Incredibly Evil Arkansas Bait-Shop Conspiracy.

Dean has done other things to maximize his online fundraising punch, like reinvesting money into expanding donor lists and paying “bloggers” or professional Internet surfers to keep the enthusiasm up on his website.

Emphasis is mine.

He's paying people to maintain his website. What scandal?

Confused #63,

Of course, no other major web site (drudge, instapundit, winds of change) is going to pick up this "scandal"

The Hill carries the story, but it isn't credible until one of those internet sites picks it up. My, how times have changed.

P.S. Why are you so worked up about this issue?

I had no idea there were "professional Internet surfers", but the bloggers on his official site are paid, as they're campaign employees. They also have an Internet strategy in which they *gasp* send out e-mails to get their message out!

I wonder if the Bush campaign pays the bloggers on their blog...probably. I certainly hope you raise the pitch and hue of your complaining once that sordid little fact comes out.

I told you so.

#68 confused

Of course, this site isn't a whore for the Republican party now, is it?

Listen buddy, this site is paid for by the Zionist consipiracy, and don't forget it!

Hey, I've been posting on Dean's blog since March/April and nobody's offered me a cent.....oh well....

If you think the people power is fake, stay tuned, you'll see it is legit.

-Bryan in VT

PS If anyone has any serious questions about Dean and why I and many others support him, just ask me:

bryanmblack@hotmail.com

As far as I can tell, the Dean campaign is incredibly cheap: Why pay for something, when you can get it for free? People are just out there, posting, trolling, whatever . . . no franchise needed. (Somebody did up a T-shirt: "I see Dean people!") The person who wrote the 'Hill' article must have botched their "facts." Go for the simple answer: Why should they even bother to pay shills?

Charles - SHAME ON YOU!

RESEARCH your stories before posting shit like that. Do you even know what a blogger is??? YOU are blogger, not the people commenting on your blog. The people Dean is paying are the people like Matthew Gross and Zephyr Teachout who post new stories on the blog, not the people who post comments to those stories.

You do a disservice to democracy by choosing to be so innaccurate. If you consider yourtself to be a journalist in even hte most remote sense, you have an OBLIGATION to be accurate an honest. If you can't be honest, you have no right to post anything (ever hear of slander?????). Get a clue!

And people wonder why I think Faux News should be forced off the air? Let them stand on a streetcorner with a carboard sign like the ignorant lying crazies they are!

Make fun of Dean supporters all you want, but look at all the attention you are giving them. Whatever Dean's strategy was, it worked.

Charles, perhaps you should stick to blogging about terrorism, which you are quite good at. Domestic politics don't seem to be your thang.

Wow. Lots of bitter, angry Dean supporters in the house.

Then again, is there any other kind of Dean supporter?

Is anyone interested in the truth?

The official Dean campaign, Dean for America (www.deanforamerica.com) has its own official blog (www.blogforamerica.com) which they pay for, just like every other aspect of the official campaign. Just like every other candidate pays for the own official campaign services.

There are two people on the blog payroll: Matthew Gross and Zephyr Teachout. Both work directly for the campaign, just like the campaign managers and staffers of every campaign. These two post some, but certainly not all of the articles at [Link: www.blogforamerica.com...] . The rest are from grassroots supporters.

Of course, the dozens if not hundreds of other Dean blogs are created and staffed entirely by volunteers. That means that of all the hundreds (thousands?) of Dean bloggers, a whopping TWO are paid, and openly so, by the Dean campaign.

If you're interested in spreading false rumors in order to confuse and mislead people, you probably won't be interested in these facts. If you happen to value the truth, like Howard Dean does, you just might want to get some facts before you start slinging mud.

If you look at Dean's blog, it has a post every morning linking to news (mostly Dean, some anti-bush). The person who posts those would probably be a "surfer" who is paid by the campaign, yes?

I do not see where we go from that to "dean pays trolls!"

The guy pays two professional bloggers, just like he pays a communication director who does media hype, and several people who organize the rallies around his speeches.

If Dean was paying people to go to OTHER web sites to troll, that would be nasty. But considering that Trippi came out and said "stop trolling the Kerry blog" TWICE, I doubt that's the case.

Yes, actually, we're very interested in the truth. As Rick Heller said above, and as I agreed, if the article is badly written and misleading, then it should be clarified. But rather obviously, I am not the only one who read this to mean that people were being paid to hype Dean's campaign on the Internet -- even some of Dean's own followers took it that way.

P.S. It isn't helping the case of the Dean people very much that you're behaving like a hive full of angry wasps.

How is this different from the GOP Team Leader program and their astroturf campaign?

Team Leader allows you to look up your local media outlets - papers, TV and radio - to find out their contact information. Depending on the outlet, you will have the ability to write or fax a message right through Team Leader. Every time you contact a media outlet to promote President Bush, you earn GOPoints.

There is one difference: The Dean campaign is restricted to Dean only. The GOP campaign is funded and recognized by the RNC.

The charge is a lie. No one is paid to blog for Dean. Matt Gross runs a Web site. Zephyr Teachout is an Internet coordinator. Just because they blog and they have jobs doesn't mean they're paid to blog.

It's important you know this for several reasons. The most important is that, when you blog, you had better do it from the heart, and not from the pocketbook.

Repeat after me:

I believe everything I read.
I believe everything I read.
I believe everything I read.

Viking, your comment 'all Dean followers are angry' is another piece of flotsam. Please. I think any non-Bush supporter is probably angry right now.

Charles, I don't think that's what Fiery Celt said. You should take care not to create innuendo and flat lies. Dean is NOT paying anyone to go to troll other sites. He has two staffers that run his blog site. That's it.

I could counter that websites such as this create rumors to which it's drooling dittoheads nod apoplectically. But that would just be an angry accusation, and I don't want to come off that way.

Howard Dean is NOT "short".

/Ho4Howard

Is this what they call a "False Flag" operation?

Strong work, Charles. :)

For me at least, the issue isn't whether Dean pays people to work on his website.

It's whether he pays people to shill - i.e., to post enthusiastic "testimonials" on his site (or anyplace else). Dean's campaign has encouraged the impression that his internet support has been spontaneous, unsolicited, and grassroots - probably because unpaid, unsolicted statements and a populist uprising have considerably more credibility than a paid political advertisement from a sophisticated campaign machine.
(BTW, aren't paid political ads supposed to be marked as such?)

Of course that report from The Hill is simply not true. I am speaking from experience of having been involved in the Dean campaign for nearly a year. I suppose people will also believe that Dean is paying people to contribute to his campaign.

Deaniacs can't even agree...

#91
"The people Dean is paying are the people like Matthew Gross and Zephyr Teachout who post new stories on the blog, not the people who post comments to those stories."

#96
"No one is paid to blog for Dean. Matt Gross runs a Web site. Zephyr Teachout is an Internet coordinator. Just because they blog and they have jobs doesn't mean they're paid to blog."

Deaniacs are so predictable. The slightest hint of criticism brings brings them out in force. Howard Dean is to Deaniacs as Mohammed (maybe even Allah) is to Islamists.

Be careful, Charles. A Deaniac fatwa might be issued against you.

#6 Haiku--What is the obsession of these free-thinkers in supporting killers. Remember that guy in prison thjat the famous author sponsored and supported? I forget the names but that he was sprung and then after a lot of writing poetry or books he murdered some one again.
It is like these prisoners are jewelry items for the day.
They break or tarnish, dump and move on. No self-evaluation of these types. No introspection--did I do wrong...to support Mumia?

This is sick. He pays people to troll. TROLLS! The worst kind of people that can exist online. I was wondering where all those trolls were coming from. I would never steep that low as a politician. As a webmaster, I am sickened.
This is the same as politicians paying out newspapers to write good articles about them.

I just love short, irritable, and abrasive guys.

Is there a reason why the patently untrue accusation of paid trolls hasn't been taken down yet?

And the Dean people took it to mean that they paid people to post on DEAN's website.

No one but Charles interpreted it to mean they paid people to troll other websites.

#103

Learn to read--though this is not the best site to pick up reading comprehension skills.

On a non-bitter and non-angry note, Slate has published a drinking game to go with the Democratic presidential debates. Cheers!

Take one drink if:
A candidate mentions an ordinary American by name
A candidate mentions Bill Clinton
A candidate mentions John Ashcroft
A candidate mentions John McCain
A candidate mentions Enron
A candidate mentions Halliburton
A candidate mentions a member of his or her family
A candidate gives out his or her campaign Web site URL
A candidate flourishes a printout of a strategy paper or a bill he or she co-sponsored
A candidate looks into the wrong camera during introductions
A candidate speaks Spanish
A candidate refuses to answer a hypothetical question
A candidate evades the question of whether they'd vote for Bush's $87 billion
A candidate uses the phrase "when I'm president"
A candidate promises to "support our troops"

Take two drinks if:
A candidate says a rival is "wrong"
A candidate says he or she is "surprised" by something a rival says
The camera catches an audience member in mid-yawn

Drain your glass if:
You laugh out loud at a candidate's joke

Finish the bottle if:
The candidates get into a fistfight

Why, yes, "Confused." There is a reason why there's no update to this story yet -- because it still hasn't been clarified by the original source. You'll have to forgive me if I'm not willing to take the word of an anonymous Dean supporter posting under the name "Confused," as appropriate as your chosen name may be.

Charles

Zing!

Angry?

Bitter?

Confused?

Dean!

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good partisan smear.

Weren't you complaining about the L.A. Times printing actual accusations?

No one has actually mentioned Dean hiring trolls but you. The article didn't mention it. The Dean website has clarified it that it has two people on its payroll for blogging.

So, all the evidence you have is a poorly worded article that doesn't support your interpretation, which in turn is directly contradicted by everyone in a position to know.

You simply have no rational basis for believing he hires people to troll other websites.

Stop pretending you're interested in the truth.

To the Little Green Football Community:

Matthew Gross (in charge of the Dean campaign weblog) has in fact responded to all this confusion. The sentence was confusing, and only meant that Dean's campaign was one of the first to hire (right off the bat) an experienced blogger. That experienced blogger is Matt Gross, who showed up on the doorstep in Burlington asking for the project of building an "active, enthusiastic" blog. He's starting the threads, not posting on them. Here's Matt's post on the O-Blog:

"Hey all,

The Hill article is confusing. The only paid bloggers are me and Zephyr-- which the author must be referring to.

We certainly don't pay anyone to post on the threads, which is how some people read the article. When you have up to 2,200 comments a day, that would be an incredible waste of money."

Posted by Mathew Gross at October 8, 2003 12:53 AM

I hope this particular issue quiets down. I think what would be healthy is an honest discussion of the issues. I would bring your attention to Dr. Dean's doctrine of fiscal responsibility as compared to Bush's tax cutting/spending raising economic policies. Dean also has over 460,000 supporters signed up already--THEY are the people posting in the weblog threads.

Thanks for your time, and I would hope this smear campaign ends soon.

This is reprehensible! Almost as bad as paying ad companies to do favorable TV spots, or paying campaign workers to make signs, or ... oops. Never mind. It's THE EXACT SAME THING.

Wow, this really touched a raw nerve, didn't it?

One entry at LGF now qualifies as a "smear campaign?" Heaven help the Deaniacs (love that word -- describes what we've seen here perfectly) if I ever decide to launch a real smear campaign -- like Dean's entire candidacy has been -- instead of just quoting an article.

I find it hard to believe that GW Bush does all of the maintenance on his blog (GeorgeWbush.com/blog), let alone all of the writing. Do you think Karl ropes in some people who both 1) know what they're doing and 2)are willing to work for free.

True, money in campaigns is disgusting, but don't try to say that the Dems are any worse than the Reps when it comes to money abuses.

"Thanks for your time, and I would hope this smear campaign ends soon."

don't worry, david -- there's no way to tie this to Arafat, so i'm sure the LGFers will lose interest pretty quickly...

The problem, Charles, is that you misquoted ("'Bloggers' or professional web surfers" vs. "'Bloggers AND professional web surfers'") and completely mischaracterized (hires people to troll? puh-leaze) an article.

The Dean campaign does not hire people to troll websites.

You know that now, as much as we know that you don't work for the Kucinich campaign.

To keep the accusation up that he hires people to troll is just plain dishonest. Everyone reading your blog knows it. You know it.

Deaniacs are very accomplished seethers! I haven't seen this much thrashing and whining since the last UN Security Council meeting.

Well, when you post lies about their candidate, you should expect to get called on your b.s.

You used to be a fairly credible voice on terrorism/Islamic extremism issues.

Now, just a partisan Republican hack and hatchet man.

P.S. Ask a trusted blogger friend or two if your interpretation/accusation is reasonable and accurate next time before you make a fool of yourself.

But, you can sit their and enjoy the fact that you've pissed off people through your lack of reading skills and truthfulness. Cause to be proud indeed.

It's a seethefest! The anonymous Dean supporters don't like me; I am bereft.

Once again, and quite calmly, not "like an angry wasp"...

Dean pays a few people (called "bloggers" or web surfers) to post on his blog. Just as other candidates pay people to write press releases, these people do their best to paint their boss in a good light.

What's wrong with that?

Nah, we like you Charles.

We just want to make sure that no one makes the mistake of thinking you have any credibility.

Mission accomplished!

Just an observation.

When I have recently criticized the recall or the merits of a Scwarzeneggar candidacy, Schwarzeneggar/Recall supporters have expressed their disagreement and told me why I was wrong, but only rarely did it brush on being uncivil. And I was never accused of being a liar, or running a smear campaign on behalf of the opposition.

I cannot imagine how miserable it must be to go through life consumed with such anger and bitterness. And on such a perfect autumn day.

One other point:
Dean has a VERY active web community going. If you post something that is negative about the campaign, you can expect people to react.

Because the Dean campaign has no control over those people, some of them will turn nasty. So you get some people who call you an idiot, rather then calmly pointing out the truth of the matter.

Blaming "deaniacs" as a whole for that is silly. Just as people on the left shouldn't blame every conservative for Ann Coulter.

Dan,

Nothing is wrong with it... so long as they disclose themselves as Dean supporters or operatives... and don't pretend to be somethine else.

Yah, those Arnold supporters are so civil and reasonable. Except when they are assualting people at their rallies. Sheesh. Georgy had a huge thing on that. Arnold supporters are not exactly the best example of the "civil" right.

Viking the Kitten: I agree; one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Dean supporters, and of many of the far left bloggers (you know who you are) is their sheer mean-spiritedness and willingness to launch immediately into ad hominem attacks and personal slurs. They seem to believe the best way to advance their arguments is to denigrate their opponents. These are people whose idea of a snappy retort is to call me "Chuck." It's pathetic, really.

Wait a sec, Viking. The point here is that the paid Dean people are ONLY posting on Dean's blog. They are NOT going to other blogs.

I doubt many people think Matt Gross is an objective voice. And it's sorta silly to suggest that he has to put a "I'm paid by the Dean campaign" note under every post he makes.

I was wondering why anyone would like this short, irritable, abrasive candidate, but I see I have my answer.

These are people whose idea of a snappy retort is to call me "Chuck." It's pathetic, really.

Could be worse. Someone (think it was Gordon) called me "Norse Pussy" when I disagreed with something he said, and someone on one thread insinuated that I was a child molester. I think that was the lowest.

Of course all the posters here who are SHOCKED that Dean would actually pay someone to work on his campaign (the horror), are equally disgusted with that loser Issa out in Cali who sunk millions of his own cash into buying signatures for the recall, and Ahnuld for then cashing in on Issa's purchase. Wingers, ya gotta love 'em.

I was wondering why anyone would like this short, irritable, abrasive candidate, but I see I have my answer.

Good point.

Can you imagine an actual Dean administration--- where every functionary is not only bitter and angry but also smug and utterly contemptuous? Barf!

My kids are kind of into Wesley Clark... but only, and I stress... only because he wants to make faster than light travel a goal of his administration. Of all the democrats, Clark is by far the least vomitile... followed by Lieberman. Does it not say something that the lead democrat candidates... Kerry and Dean ... are also the most elitist??

(#133) Mark C. writes:

are equally disgusted with that loser Issa out in Cali who sunk millions of his own cash into buying signatures for the recall, and Ahnuld for then cashing in on Issa's purchase.

I'm not disgusted by that at all. It's hysterically funny, actually...

I was against the recall, but Issa needlessly ditching $2 million was by far and away my favorite side note.

Well, that and the Gary Coleman concession speech...

Charles wants names. Why hasn't he gone to Dean's online FEC filings, which have records of every disbursement the campaign makes?

Mark C is one of those people who sees the recall as a coup d'etat by a small right-wing cabal... of 4.5 million voters.

The recall got popular support. The stop-the-war-impeach-Bushitler movement didn't.

Deal with it.

Charles:

First you said "Deaniacs are very accomplished seethers."

Then you said "They seem to believe the best way to advance their arguments is to denigrate their opponents."

You seem to think that too.

"Confused" wrote:

Charles wants names. Why hasn't he gone to Dean's online FEC filings, which have records of every disbursement the campaign makes?

I did, as a matter of fact. But since so many lefty bloggers hide behind pseudonyms (just like you're doing), it tells me nothing.

It's a seethefest! The anonymous Dean supporters don't like me; I am bereft.

LOL!!

Wow, this thread has brought out the nasty ones!

One of the distinguishing characteristics of the Dean supporters, and of many of the far left bloggers (you know who you are) is their sheer mean-spiritedness and willingness to launch immediately into ad hominem attacks and personal slurs. They seem to believe the best way to advance their arguments is to denigrate their opponents.

You would adopt their tactics, too, if your ideas were as bad.

You would adopt their tactics, too, if your ideas were as bad.

True. If your central campaign planks are massive tax increases to pay for French and Canadian style health systems so that sick people can be neglected by government bureaucrats instead of HMO's coupled with making American security subserviant to the dictates of an organization that actively hates America (the UN), then vicious attacks on your opponents probably are your best bet.

#141:
Are you saying that Charles' ideas are "as bad?" Because he has adopted their tactics.

#142 VK -

Now diagram that sentence.

Glenn Reynolds addresses the rumors.

THIS ARTICLE says that Howard Dean is paying bloggers. I think this means Matt Gross, et al., who are running his campaign blog. But, just in case you were wondering, I'm not on the Dean payroll

Wow.

Charles accuses Dean of paying people to trolls.

Every bit of evidence points against that. (From the wording of the actual article to the clarifications by the Dean campaign).

So, the obvious response is that Dean supporters are mean and that they have no good ideas, so they gotta seethe.

You go, LGFers!

Apparently they're from the Bill Clinton school of thought--as long as you say it with a smile, it doesn't matter if you're telling the truth.

Oh, but wait a minute! I thought Glenn Reynolds wouldn't touch this story? I thought "no other major web site" was going to pick up this scandal?

Maybe you're more confused than you thought?

James Taranto has also picked it up. Does the Wall Street Journal qualify as a "major web site?"

Seethe away!

1. Taranto? Why not quote the RNC while you're at it? That's like quoting The Nation or Mother Jones on an anti-Bush story.

2. That item will be retracted from the WSJ by this time next week.

3. Reynolds disagrees with both of you. I hope you figured that out by yourself. Given that his field of work is weighing evidence and interpreting statements, instead of attacking liberals, I think I'd rather have him in my corner.

4. Still no allegations of trolling. Why don't they believe your interpretation?

Forgot #5: Reynolds doesn't consider it a scandal--merely a statement that he pays people to run his website.

Uh ... "scandal" was your word. But I guess when you're "Confused," it's easy to forget little details.

Keep spinning! I'm getting a kick out of it.

The idea that his campaign employs bloggers to run his website is interesting. That's the angle Reynolds is running.

That still doesn't change the fact that you invented the part about him hiring people to troll other websites.

A fact which you've at least stopped denying.

We must move forwards, not backwards, upwards, not
forwards, and always twirling, twirling towards freedom.

Keep spinning! I'm getting a kick out of it.

this thread is hysterical! Where was I yesterday? Oh yeah, waiting for the Fish to die.

A fun juxtaposition exercise:

"perhaps he read the post where I called him a 'fuckin' hippie wet dream from Vermont'".

"Desperation makes you stupid. "

"The technical term for this is PAYOLA!"

"It seems to be a step or two away from a pyramid scheme."

"Howard Dean is to Deaniacs as Mohammed (maybe even Allah) is to Islamists. Be careful, Charles. A Deaniac fatwa might be issued against you. "

.. and then the punchline ..

"P.S. It isn't helping the case of the Dean people very much that you're behaving like a hive full of angry wasps."

Isn't that fun? Is this blog always this hilarious? My favorite part is wondering if Charles will be big enough to admit to his mistake (lie? only if it's intentional. is it?), or if he even realizes he's wrong. I am holding up a little banner that says "Go, Confused!" Pass the popcorn!

...paying “bloggers” or professional Internet surfers to keep the enthusiasm up on his website.

Keep the enthusiasm up by telling trolls where to go to seethe and post links.

LGF comment posters I think I warned you about this a month or so ago.

Charles keep up the good work.

Confused,

You're awfully worked up about Charles labelling as trolls Dean's hired bloggers. Perhaps your anger is misplaced if such trivialities drive you insane.

Maybe you should reserve your anger for the Clintonistas who installed Generalissimo Clark in a bloodless coup when they realized that Dean had generated a strong foundation of support among the Vichy wing your party.

I'm with Ric (#155) on this one. This thread is better than the Onion.

Funny how the anti-Dean idiotarians are seething and whining over the horrendous revelation that Dean (gasp!) pays his campaign employees.

That being said, I can't understand why so many people like Dean.

!!GWB 04!!!

Glenn won't touch it? Funny, he links directly to it, and to this thread.

While I don't completely agree with his take that the Hill article was mis-read, because it does definately leave the impression that the Dean campaign is hiring its own model of flying monkeys (not just paying people to maintain the main blog site - thats so damned obvious as to be a 'duh' kind of thing not really necessary to mention) And the 'statement' about it from his webmaster (which I still have yet to locate in the bowels of the Dean site, and alas, no linkage was provided for) simply refers to not paying people to come to their own site...

For a 'net savvy bunch, they're sure letting this one hang over the plate for a while, relying on their anonymous swarmers to carry the message...lets see, the swarmers were crowing about no one else reacting to it in less than chop chop fashion (say, in under 30 minutes)...lets see, its been almost 36 hours now...tick tock tick tock...

I'm still wondering how "keeping up enthusiasm on site A" equals "trolling websites B-Z."

Some people are just too perceptive for their own good.

Charles won't admit he's wrong. I expect him to be scouring the FEC filings for Josh Mashall's name for the next few months.

All the left-of-center blogs are part of a great left-wing conspiracy. Those damn LGF'ers are going to blow its cover!

Of course, those who view the Dean website realize that they have two bloggers posting stuff on there through the day as part of the campaign.

The very worst that could be read into that statement is that he hires people to pose as supporters on that site. Anyone who's seen what that site's traffic is like knows that's silly--that would be a waste of money.

Dean's popularity on the web is well known on the non-echo-chamber blogosphere.

You all should really open your eyes.

Carry on LGFers/dittoheads/Freepers. The claim that the article says Dean hires trolls is much more revealing about its author than its subject.

Dean's popularity on the web is well known on the non-echo-chamber blogosphere.

Is that a big deal for him? How popular is he off the "blogosphere"?

Charles said

one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Dean supporters, and of many of the far left bloggers (you know who you are) is their sheer mean-spiritedness and willingness to launch immediately into ad hominem attacks and personal slurs. They seem to believe the best way to advance their arguments is to denigrate their opponents.

How true. I saw the President tonight and I got to shake his hand! As I was leaving, there was a character with the Dean people who had a sign with a picture of the President and a caption that said "Daddy's little war criminal" and others had "Bush lied" posters.

Nice group of supporters, Dean.

"Confused": I think you should change your handle to "Scared," because you sound very afraid, with this "LGFers/dittoheads/Freepers" stuff.

"You all should really open your eyes."

The evil conservatives are all against you, and you can't seem to make them understand how stupid they are!

Turning blue yet?

Heh, yah, all 5 people calling Charles on his misreading are really a seething swarm. How mean of the Dean folks. :(((((((((((((((((((((((

Seriously, Dean pays his campaign staff to blog. He does not pay trolls. Charles says he pays trolls. One of Dean's strengths is that he has supporters who will quite politely point out this sort of mistake.

Of course, becuase it is the internet, he also has supporters who act like asses. That's the problem with giving up total control when using a medium like the net.

Oh, and just so you know, I think I've posted once at Dean's blog, criticizing the campaign for putting too much emphasis on money, and not enough on issues. I've been more interested in Edwards since I saw him speak months ago at the JFK library in Boston. So I probably shouldn't count as part of the seething swarm.

Zulubaby:

He's currently the leader of the Democratic candidates. That's why conservatives are attacking him.

Charles:

I've given up on you. Either you're not bright enough to realize or not honest enough to admit your error.

Either way, there's a reason why your blog has gone from a place where liberals and conservatives could talk about the threat from radical Islam to a mindless bash on whomever Rush takes aim at.

It's you.

Oh, woe is me! "Confused" has given up on me. Sob. How will I go on? How will I ever get over the hurt?

OK, I'm over it now.

Confused (#166)

He's currently the leader of the Democratic candidates. That's why conservatives are attacking him.

While that may be true, the Democrats do their fair share of bashing too, so that's neither here nor there. What I'm interested in is what you wrote in #161:

Dean's popularity on the web is well known on the non-echo-chamber blogosphere.

So he's popular on the web. I don't understand what the big whoop is about that?

And I'm sorry, but Charles is smarter than most, and you know that.

In 1984, the Democratic candidates reminded me of ducks in a shooting gallery, getting picked off one by one.

The current batch of Democrats makes me think of those ducks...but instead of getting picked off one by one, they all pull out pistols and simulataneously blow their brains out.

>He's currently the leader of the Democratic candidates.

Got that wrong, too. It's Wesley "I don't know my own position" Clark.

Confused,

He's currently the leader of the Democratic candidates.

I admit the situation is fluid, but last time I checked Generalissimo Clark was leading the herd.

Ha sez

You're awfully worked up about Charles labelling as trolls Dean's hired bloggers. Perhaps your anger is misplaced if such trivialities drive you insane.

I was thinking that same thing. My twelve-year-old gets exactly the same way when he gets worked up about some perceived slight. Last night, he threw an hour-long tantrum because I was helping his foster brother with homework and making him wait his turn. He screamed and carried on about how unfair I was, and how biased I was, and when he saw he was getting no where, he resorted to name-calling and kicking the cat food bowl across the floor.

I think we'll have a new term of endearment in the house. "Quit acting like a Howard Dean supporter."

Ahem.

Really, I think the story that everyone's so excited about is being misconstrued. I think Dean's paying Matt Gross, just as Clark is paying Cam Barrett. I don't think the story's about sub rosa payments to bloggers for good treatment. Try reading it again.

Snort. Chuckle. Guffaw.

I hope James Taranto is reading.

*Declares victory and exits stage left*

Call a waaaahmbulance! Somebody's gonna get hurt by all this spinning.

I thought you "gave up on me?" If you want to declare "victory" (really? how much money did you win? did you get a nice trophy for the mantelpiece?) because Glenn Reynolds expressed an opinion, then go right ahead and knock yourself out. Another blow to the head couldn't make you any more "Confused" than you already are.

Why do I have the feeling your latest promise to exit is just as dishonest as your last one? I'm clicking the stop watch now...

And we still refuse to deal with the substance, which is that clearly Charles misread the article. Instead it's all about how "whiny" Dean supporters are.

This is a blog. People will point out a mistake. That's not whining, thats the entire point of a blog!

Or do we still insist that the original post is accurate, despite the evidence to the contrary?

Danno,

If this were just about 'correcting the record' or 'disputing an intepretation,' Confused and all the other Deanbots would have "moved on" (as Dems were once so fond of saying) after two or three posts. However, by clinging to this thread and ranting, they have made their anger and bitterness the subject of the thread.

It's really no different than a thread about ... oh, any given subject... morphing into a discourse on moral equivalence when Mrs Potatohead (a.k.a View From Ireland) shows up.

Or, perhaps you were unaware of how arguments evolve in an environment of open discourse?

Get used to saying it, Charles:

PRESIDENT Howard Dean.

Letting the most angry, bitter, confused, and anti-American segment of the electorate choose the leader of the free world. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

#178 Viking the Kitten;

"Letting the most angry, bitter, confused, and anti-American segment of the electorate choose the leader of the free world."

What do Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly's listeners have to do with this?

Wow, you righties are getting worried about Dean... I didn't think you would be so scared as to start making the delusional statement that Dean pays the thousands of people who post on his blog and blog for him separately. How much would that cost? Wait, I forgot, you guys are the ones who gave us a $500 billion deficit... how can I expect you to estimate costs?

More power to you, Gordon.

#180 -

Wow, you righties are getting worried about (The Candidate Who Shall Remain Nameless*)...

Uh, who's the one whose "worried" here? You guys seem to feel the need to confront every little thing that's said about that short, irritable and abrasive candidate, wherever, whenever...

Uh, oh, Gordo's got a GANG!

Rumble behind the Kwikie Mart, tonight at 11...

*Seems like just the mere uttering of his name seems to bring his stooges in here, hence the CWSRN.

Flypaper strategy:

Howard Dean is short
Howard Dean is short
Howard Dean is short
Howard Dean is short
Howard Dean is short
Howard Dean is short
Howard Dean is short

One last parting shot.

The Hill Reporter Clarifies his column.

Taranto has retracted. Leaving the post unaltered is now libel (that's legalese for a bald-faced lie).

Cheers.

Howard Dean does not pay his bloggers. The only one might be Matt Gross, but other than that, its the power of the internet doing a lot of work for him. A lot of people want to kick Bush out of office, and Dean is the one guy who can do that. His innovative, hands-off use of the internet is revolutionary and can scare other candidates. Thats why this is becoming a fake-scandal.

A blog without comments (like George W. Bush's blog) is just mindless PR.

well at least Dean can take credit for creating some jobs.

A blog without comments (like George W. Bush's blog) is just mindless PR.

The President has a blog. LOL!!

Hello,

I'm a supporter of Howard Dean... so if that makes me a "Deaniac", I'm guilty as charged.

As you know, some people feel passionately about their candidate of choice. I've not been following this blog... and I just showed up because I saw it on a Dean oriented website. I do know of Charles K. Johnson from his Atari ST programming days... as I used to be a big Atari fan (an "Atariac"?). When I saw Charles mentioned in a Dean controversy I was drawn to this blog as a result. I bought every product CodeHeads made... that I had a use for (not a Midi user).

After having waded through the various posts I can say (and several of you will disagree with me not because of what I'm saying but because I've mentioned I for Dean) I saw more mean spirited comments coming from those opposing 'Confused'.

Am I angry? Yes, I am angry at many of the decisions the Bush Administration has made. I'll not go into all of that now and I'm sure everyone is glad. :) The point is .. what is wrong with being mad? Am I supposed to be happy about all of the things I dislike? Those who see Howard Dean as someone who is just taking pot shots at the President... and being a leader of angry people is missing the main thrust of his campaign. I've talked to several people within the Dean campaign (mostly conference calls... not personally) and I can tell you that they are very positive people with a very positive message. I know that a lot of that IS NOT coming through in the various sound bites and brief interviews and what is mostly being promoted in the media are negative statements and showing anger. Don't worry, we'll get past all of that.

I challenge folks to get beyond the rhetoric and to check out Gov. Dean's stand on the issues and his record. If there are things there you disagree with, let me know. Many of the people I've talked with who aren't for Dean actually agree with him on most of the issues... they just haven't figured that out yet.

I'm completely in the dark about Charles' political affiliations (if any) although I can tell he isn't a Dean fan.

Anyway...

I don't think the Dean campaign is paying people to act like non-paid people. That would be a page out of the Microsoft PR handbook.

Does Charles believe the Dean campaign is paying people to act like non-paid people? He hasn't really said other than the original posting.

I can see why the Dean supporters would be mad and defending their candidate.

Many of the comments made by some of you are obviously just attempts to stir up the "bees". I see nothing positive about such efforts.

Like someone else already said... if you want to be serious and ask questions about Dean, fire away. I'm not under any delusion that Howard Dean is perfect... nor do I agree with his stand on every issue... but he is the best thing going.

This country is in trouble. How many states are bankrupt? It's in the middle 30's I think. I believe Texas and Florida are among them. Vermont seems to be doing nicely... and Vermont even has some positive programs (like health care and prevention oriented policies and programs). Yes, I understand that Vermont isn't a typical state. I live in Montana and it isn't the typical state either... but our Gov. (although she is a very nice lady and I like her on a personal level... and yes she is Republican) isn't even running for re-election because she knows people are fed up with the financial situation Montana is in... and they mostly blame her because she is the leader.

I can't think of anything positive to say about Bush.

Dean isn't in the pocket of any corporations... and to the best of my knowledge, Dean doesn't have any skeletons in the closet. His stance on not discriminating against gays is going to lose him a lot of votes in the South. Maybe they'll get past that.

Ok, he is relatively short. So what? Bush isn't that tall either. Is the President supposed to play basketball or something? I know... I know... you weren't serious.

Hello. I am a blogger of a Dean site that would seem to be a favorable one for the campaign to pay. Our site, Independents for Dean, was until about two months ago one of the "featured sites" on blogforamerica. I have never had contact with anyone inside the campaign and stated in a post in August just this fact.

I can only conclude the charge of the Dean campaign paying bloggers is most likely a case of rumor mongering and intentional misrepresentation with no basis in truth.

And there is this as well. For those that would like to believe the worst about the Dean campaign (and if the charge were true for Dean or any other candidate, it would be very serious one), don't rush to judgment w/o the printed word being fact.

I never would have visited this blog if not for the Dean "controversy". Wow, there are some really unintelligent people posting on this blog. Is this what Bush supporters are like? Pathetic.

You guys will have lots of angry posts to make, after Howard Dean is elected president of the United States. Just don't forget to use all your quotes regarding the power of the people in California to describe the Dean victory.

Joseppi

Go easy on the hubris, my friend

Get used to saying it, Charles:

PRESIDENT Howard Dean.

You left out part of his title:

Newly appointed PRESIDENT of the University of Vermont after losing all 50 states and DC in the 2004 election Howard Dean.

Both the pro-Dean hubris and anti-Dean bombast are getting tiresome

Scott,

If that comment was directed towards me I feel I should point out that I was kidding.

I'm sure Dean will win DC, Vermont, and Massachusetts.

Lance

Wait, you forgot Alabama.

jk also

In the end, it all comes down to how one would define "anti-American." Apparently, some people define "anti-American" as being opposed to having to kiss the UN's ass on matters of national security and opposed to confiscating ever greater amounts of hard-earned money from working families to pay for legion upon legion of meddling federal bureaucrats. Other would define "anti-American" as hoping for a prolonged recession or massive American military casualties because these would help one's party regain power.

It's really just a matter of perspective, really.

A matter of perspective, yes. I'm not a peacenik by any hallucination, but I consider the war in Iraq as fundamentally anti-American as anything our government's done or our people have supported in my 29 years of life.

#197 Scott

Just curious. In your estimation, did Bush "steal the election"?

No, I'm not one of those people.