I just had to sit through that damn Billy Mays commercial! Aargh!

Cool, a new thread.

I find myself watching MSNBC more and more. Often, while Fox is drooling over Kobe Bryant I switch to MSNBC to find them discussing the WoT - often favorably.

It's scary how ignorant some of the audience members are.

Very interesting piece in the Jerusalem Post about air strike on Syria.

"Not everyone knows this, but just 100 meters from the wadi where the training base was located were houses from a civilian village. We needed to have absolute accuracy,"

Lt.-Col. Z, who personally led the mission, said they were concerned with the proximity of the civilians to the base, but were confident their strike would be on target.

snip...

Lt.-Col. Z dismissed foreign reports that quoted Syrian officials as saying the target had been a refugee.

"This is simply not true. It was a legitimate target and there are films proving that his place was a terrorist training base," he said.

I love being Israeli...

I just wish the producers could come up with an audience that had Clue One.

Deep, deep denial.
If the Palestinian teach their children hate, the audience thinks that the Israelis must also teach hate.

Was unwilling to accept that Israel wants peace, and the Palestinian want all the land for Jordan to the Sea.

Sad really.

I suppose it just goes to show how poorly some Americans have been educated.

That was ... disturbing. One audience member after another spouting "both sides are equally guilty," "we can't blame anyone," "I'm sure Israelis preach the same hatred," etc. etc.

The skulls of those people are filled with gelatin. They know nothing about the situation in the Middle East, yet still spout morally equivalent opinions with zero facts to back them up. Scary.

Moral Equivalency is the result of extreme narcissism. Why take sides when you can be above both sides?

Notice when people dont know the full story they say
"well...uhhh...both sides are wrong".

too bad the israeli side never seems to get played.

The pal. propaganda machine,sadly, works overtime.

I just caught the very end of the show where they were discussing Barbara Bush. Clueless idiots. And the poll questions present false choices. Very stupid. I'll take Fox News. At least I'm used to their biases and know when to hit MUTE.

Love that freak who said that there won't be peace until all old people are dead. People at LGF are a tiny tiny tiny minority. That panel represents most of America. Next time you wonder why I get so upset... just remember these people and multiply it by several million. I have run across way more people in life like them and had no idea anyone thought differently until I found LGF. That is sad and scary.

Someone reassure me that thats NOT a cross section of
the american population.

OT- I'd like to extend my prayers to all our LGF brothers and sisters facing disaster from the fires now moving through the Rancho Cucamonga?Claremont?Fontana, San Bernardino/Montain,Ventura,Simi Valleys areas of Southern California.If there is any assistance, moral support or sympathetic ear I can offer please don't hesistate to click on my name and shoot me an email.May God bless you and keep you safe.

Someone reassure me that thats NOT a cross section of the american population.

It was not a representative sample. That was the cream of the crop. In a true random sample, half of the group will have below-average intelligence. The real droolers were probably weeded out!

if american liberal jews don't believe this, then how can the general public understand. every time i mention anything regarding the actions and education of the palestinians, they feel for the pooor palestinians.

people, you are welcome to Israel anytime.
if not now,then after america turns muslim.
you will be welcome then too.

I'm almost glad I missed it, seeing stupid people talking pisses me off.

If only stupidity were painful.

Deathberg #8:

I have made an extensive study of moral equivocation, with special attention to post WW2 phenomenon. My conclusion is that protection of national minorities, necessitated by the historical example of the Holocaust of Jews and offenses against other minorities, has blurred the fact that muslim protectees embrace an unconscionable ideology of plunder, human enslavement, brutalization, and murder. And the threat that they pose is of a global-genocidal nature.

The resistance to exceptionalism in minority protection, yields moral equivalency dogma. A realistic assessment of islamic dogma, and its practical application would resolve the problem, and enable extreme repression of Islamofascism in all its forms. I advocate devising shoot-on-sight legislation viz muslims who contributed morally, financially or directly to terror organizations. That would mean execution of the entire present and past leaderships of CAIR, AMC, ISNA, ICNA, IANA. Internationally, I would like to see the following cities and areas nuked (and in some cases deliberately contaminated so that they cannot be entered for thousands of years): Peshawar, Waziristan and the Tribal Territories (Pakistan); Qom (Iran); Karbala (Iraq); Riyadh, Mecca and Medina (Saudi Arabia); (al-Qaeda sections) Yemen. I would also like to see Temple Mount bulldozed of islamic pollutants, and deportation of the entire Arab muslim populations of Israel and the West Bank. No state would get aid unless they liquidated all national islamofascists.

Anyone who values the continued existence of Western Civilization should lose all aversion to the mass execution of the mortal enemy: islamofascist muslims.

Critics? Sign these petitions which reflect your views:

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]
[Link: www.alminbar.com...]
(screwed up URL from screwed up savages)

Unbelievable that such poorly informed people think they are even qualified to vote, the moral equivalency spouted by most of them was nauseating .

From Operation Stop Inciting Children to Kill:

25,000 children were trained this past summer in Palestinian Authority summer camps in the use of firearms, the making of Molotov cocktails, methods and operational rehearsals for kidnapping targeted leaders, and conducting ambushes. Tragically they were indoctrinated for a new generation of war -- not for peace.

[Link: www.operationsick.com...]
 

Failure to pronounce moral judgment is the hallmark of modern society...unless of course, if one smokes cigarettes; then it's pile-on time.

Love that freak who said that there won't be peace until all old people are dead.

Actually, he said that there won't be peace until the current leaders are dead, then he clarified it to mean until Arafat and Sharon are out of power. The Israelis I have talked to echo the same sentiment. Both are too caught up in their hatred of each other to make peace.

On one encouraging note, the mainstream media is starting to realize that the idea of "moderate" Islam is a joke. I encourage you to read the NYT Week in Review, both an article and cartoon (links below) that address the reaility of the disease of hatred infecting the Islamic world. Although this is not as lucid as someone like Pipes, it appears to be a start and maybe part of a slow moving realization. We can only hope before it is too late.

the article: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

OT (to a point):

Speaking of teaching your children...

Court Orders Italy School to Remove Cross

The ruling Saturday highlights the country's awkward relationship with its growing immigrant population, whose presence belies the notion of Italy as a solely Christian nation.

Yet another example of Europe's slow sinking into dhimmitude.

That was ... disturbing. One audience member after another spouting "both sides are equally guilty," "we can't blame anyone," "I'm sure Israelis preach the same hatred," etc. etc.

Folks, here and there, I've seen and heard "anecdotes," both online and offline, from Lefty, Yankeephobe, and "pro-Arab"/"pro-Muslim" sources claiming that "all" or "most" Israeli schoollchildren were singing songs or reciting poetry in praise of Baruch Goldstein in the wake of his massacre and death. Can anyone here please provide me with links which give the facts and true details on these anecdotal tales, and where or how they originated?

The "Wake Up Call" for me was to see people like you describe in America...AFTER the Antisemitism was explained... .WW2 and Hitler etc.

It wasn't THAT long ago people. There are definitely easily recognizable PATTERNS that are exhibited here...Islamists/Arabists using the very same TACTICS..some using the very same wording..and STILL we have people lapping up what these "HATERS" have to say. Yes..they are Jew Haters...

You dont want to come to this conclusion ..but for our safety..thats AMERICANS ..Christians and Jews alike..maybe we had better realize that there are a significant amount of people even here in our country that are PREDISPOSED to believe ANYTHING Negative concerning Jews..and that MANY that believe negative stereotypes or -want to -are in very important POWER positions in the US and the World.

The hysterics over what that General said...was all over the media. I didn't agree with what he said..tactics wise..(he just handed a great PR deal to the Islamists) but compare it with the muted type of reaction of the Media to what was just said about Jews by a NATIONAL LEADER ...Real difference in reaction--qualitatively and quantitatively..

Dante has a special circle in Hell for people who do not make a choice between good and evil.

#25 Jay
that is utter nonsense. It simply doesn't happen.

#25 Jay

Do you have any Jewish friends or acquaintances? Do they have any relatives in Israel?

Why don't you find someone who lived in Israel, or whose children go to school there, and ask them: "are Israeli children singing songs or reciting poetry in praise of Baruch Goldstein?"

Or, better yet, just use your head. Does the Israeli ministry of education approve the glorification of a man deemed a terrorist by the government in the country's schools? Is this type of thing possible in an open, democratic society? Are the people who tell you these things honest, or are they liars?

"Lawmakers Told of Alleged UN Links to Middle East Terror"
[Link: www.israelbehindthenews.com...]

"UNRWA director in Jordan:
UNRWA Camps are the Greenhouses of Suicide Bombers"
[Link: www.israelbehindthenews.com...]

"Hamas Conference on the Grounds of an UNRWA school"
[Link: www.israelbehindthenews.com...]

"A GAO spokeswoman told CNSNews.com that the congressional report, which was begun in mid-April, was completed and would be made public on October 31 or November 3.
Basically, the report will examine to what extent the State Department is complying with the relevant section of the Foreign Assistance Act, which forbids the United States from giving money to any agency engaged in military activity, and what procedures have been established to meet State Department standards for compliance, the spokeswoman said."

"Fatah gangs vow to kill Palestinians selling land to Jews"
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Sorry I missed the show, but I'm chiming in anyway.

I'm Christian, age 51, raised on a farm in the Midwest. In the wake of 9-11 I'm almost violently pro-Israel, while my liberal Jewish husband continues to talk about the "cycle of violence," a phrase I have now banned.

Naturally I was wondering why I'm the Israel-hawk in the family, and not my husband.

I learned the answer when I talked to my aunt, who is in her 70s. We talk only once every few years, but we got on the subject of Israel and Palestine, and she instantly said, "Well, I don't like that Arafat, I think he's a slimy little man." When my aunt says "slimy little man," she means scum of the earth.

Then she said, "I don't see why Israel should give back any of that land. They won it in a war. It's theirs."

And that was that. She didn't have the remotest interest in the Palestinian "cause." In the word according to my aunt, Arafat is a slimy little man, and the Israelis won the land fair and square. End of story.

Suddenly I thought: Well there it is. My aunt sounds like me (she sounds more radical than I do, actually); we've both come to the same position without ever having discussed it.

I've tried to trace back where and how I came to this. No one ever told me I was supposed to be a staunch supporter of Israel, and growing up I never knew anyone who was. Nobody I knew thought much about Isreal one way or another.

So how did this happen?

I think it comes from 1960s television. Families got only 3 stations, if that, and households had only one television set, and everyone you knew watched the same thing at the same time. So any show on TV was a big deal.

The networks ran documentaries about the camps. As a child, I watched those documentaries with my family, and I never, never, never forgot. It was my first experience of horror.

And of course I had the perception that most of the fathers I knew had fought to put an end to those camps. I must have absorbed the message that it was up to us to make sure the camps never came back. I think I just took all this in. It wasn't conscious.

I don't know any Jews my age who watched those documentaries with their families. And rightly so. They were too young to see them.

But then, so was I. And yet I saw. I have the strongest sense--maybe this is wrong, but it feels this way--that my own "Holocaust trauma" is in some important sense deeper than my husband's. I think his parents protected him, but my own parents let me see. As a parent myself, of course, I'm thinking: Were they nuts??? And yet I'm not sorry that I sat with them and saw those pictures.

It wasn't just the documentaries, either. Anne Frank's diary was found at some point in there, and in high school we read it almost as a sacred text. At home, with my parents, we watched the play on television again and again.

Still another memory: my dad and his best friend talking about some frightening conflict. I had no idea what was happening, and I was trying to figure out if I should be scared, and then my dad's friend said with an air of utter authority, "They should send Moshe Dayan to handle it. He'd take care of it." My father nodded.

I felt really good about Moshe Dayan! He could take care of things!

What I'm saying is that I think the people on MSNBC may not be representative of Americans . . . or, at least, the people on MSNBC did not include what I suspect is a large group of Americans who are like me.

I have a visceral attachment to Israel, a visceral feeling that Israel's well-being is somehow critical to my own, a visceral feeling that Israel and its citizens are tough and good and I'm on their side.

My feelings aren't contingent on "good behavior," either. I don't care what Israel does. I don't care if they're building the wall in the wrong place, or roughing up the Palestinians, or bulldozing houses, or stealing the olive groves . . . it doesn't matter. Right or wrong, I'm on their side. It's that simple.

Until 9/11, all of this was unconscious. I'd never been to Israel; I'd never thought of going. I knew nothing about the situation there, except that it was a big mess, and Bill Clinton's "peace process" was a good thing. (Yup. Just as ignorant as the MSNBC folks, except for the moral relativism part.)

But the attachment was there in my unconscious mind, all along.

I think it's there for others, too. My editor, just a year after 9/11, said to me, "Israel can't go away. Nothing can happen to Israel."

It was almost bizarre. In the run-up to the war, which she opposed, that's what was scaring her, the idea that something bad would happen to Israel. She's from the heartlands, she's in her early 40s, she's nominally Christian. And she was sitting around worrying that something would happen to Israel.

So . . . I know for a fact that there are plenty of Christians in this country--liberal, urban Christians, not just conservative Christians--who have a built-in, visceral investment in the fate of Israel, whether they know it or not. It's there. And it's not going away.

I wonder whether the people on MSNBC are now beginning to develop the same distancing from Israel that I see in liberal Jewish friends?

I sure hope not.

But regardless of whether "average Americans" are beginning to develop a complicated and emotionally defended relationship to Israel, it's not going to change things. Come what may, America and Israel are in this together.

And I think Americans--most Americans--know.

Catherine,

Thank you for your post - and most of all, for your support of Israel. It means a lot, especially to those of us who live in the "extremes" of this country (the SF Bay Area, in my case). We hear nothing but anti-Israel garbage coming from everyone - especially young Jews.

Catherine, I don't know if you're going to be coming back to this thread, but I hope you do because I want you to know how very meaningful that was for me. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes.

I think the time may have come for you to plan a trip to Israel.

God bless.

I've been trying to say this for a long time. Those who have internet connections and thus access to alternative news sources beyond their local press are a subset of the total American population. And those of us who actively seek out the real story behind the headlines the "dead tree press" puts out -- those of us who go beyond the CNN or MSNBC website for our news -- are a yet much smaller subset of those on the internet.

As much as we at LGF (and others in the blogoshere) tap away at our keyboards and smugly point out the foibles and the atrocities of Islamofascism -- the word is not getting out to "Joe and Mary Sixpack" who have no other news sources than their local paper or TV channel.

I've watched stories break on the Internet, as they migrate from the wire services and to the formal news sites. Then finally, a few days later, a much truncated and sanitized version (so as to best fit within the space left by all the ads) just might run in my local paper.

The bulk of America is not getting the news it needs to make intelligent decisions -- and this especially includes elections (and that's scary). And when you consider that those who decide what stories to run have their own (very liberal) world view, America is not being well served.

Good post, Catherine. Hang in there.

Jay #25 if you are still there,

You are right to say that what you hear from those people are anecdotes, or gossip, orurban legends. They are folklore, and as is the case with almost all folklore, their origin is impossible to trace. But it does not mean that you can't combat ethnic stereotypes. If you want to show those people that their believes are baseless, you can ask them to provide links that document the alleged Israeli murder cult.

Once you establish that there is no factual data to support this folk belief, you can ask why is it that people keep passing on this particular stereotype and what does it say about the community that circulates the urban legend. I think we know the answer. Boy, I feel like my college degree is not 100% useless!

Catherine,

Thank you for your post.

Catherine (#32)

What a beautiful post! Thank you so much, and G-d bless you always. I agree with cba, it's time you went to visit Israel. Then you will know what love is :-)

Catherine,

Know that there are many of us here who feel as you do. Thank you for writing and I also hope you make it to Israel (it's a dream of mine to go someday). Israel may be attacked, but G-d has promised that Israel and the Jews will always be with us and He always keeps His promises.

#32 Catherine--

Let me add my thanks for a moving post.

#39 pattycake--

The Torah promises that Israel will dwell safely in the land if, but only if, she holds up her end of the Covenant. This is one of the predominant themes of Deuteronomy, e.g., Deut. 30:20, but you can already see it at Sinai:

Honor your father and mother. You will then live long on the land that God your Lord is giving you.

There are also unsettling concepts like remnants in the text, and we know all too well what that can mean. Try not to read things into Scripture that aren't there.

#18 Camel Prophet

If there are approx. 13 million Jews in the world, and approx. 1.3 billion Muslims, how is it that Muslims are a minority and Jews are not?

The batteries must have run down on my pocket calculator.

I am yet another unconditional supporter of Israel and the USA and very proud of it!

Palestinian indoctrination of children is nothing new. As far back as the 1982 Lebaon (Peace for Galilee) war the PLO was training children to use RPG's against Israeli troops and putting those kids deliberately on the front lines. The idea being the kids would either kill Jews, or be killed by them and either way it would be good propaganda for the Palestinians.

Israel (and we at LGF) should start a truth campaign. We need to post pictures and slide shows and get the word out. People must see Palestinian kids with weapons and their intended (and actual) victims.

It should also be pointed out that kids with weapons are combatants no matter how young and incompetent they are. They need to be treated as unlawful compatants along with the rest of the terrorists.

You can be very sure they same use of kids will happen in Iraq if it isn't already.

I, too, would like to chime in with my agreement with Catherine's post.

# 42 DarthMaulrulesok:

It should also be pointed out that kids with weapons are combatants no matter how young and incompetent they are. They need to be treated as unlawful compatants along with the rest of the terrorists.

God, but I couldn't agree more. This is one of the Pali child abuse stories that does not get out. However, they are not just merely unlawful combatants, they are also targets of opportunity, in the true sense of the words. What was it American GIs said in WWII when they came across the Hitler Jugend? Something to the effect that it was horrible, a shame, and sad that they had to fight and kill them but that they had no choice as these little boys, teenagers and less, could kill them all too easily. The same applies for this cycle of learning violence, teaching and preaching hate while giving basic weapons and explosives training to children wrapped in the cloak of religion. Palestinian martyrs? No, more like Palestinian stooges for angry, hard, ruthelss men posing as religious instructors and leaders.

terrorist, n. An anarchist who would be king.

#32 - Catherine - AMAZING post. I had a similar experience, though my family is Christian - I was exposed very early to information about the true horrors of the Holocaust, because I began reading at a very young age and I read everything in sight.

I remember thinking, as a small child, that every Jewish person involved in the Holocaust was killed. My image of it was of a (literal) fire that no one escaped. Then, sometime in third grade, I read a "young adult" novel that was modeled off the true story of a child who survived Treblinka (I don't remember the title). I remember being astonished at the realization that there were survivors of the camps, and from that point on I learned as much as I could about the Holocaust and Jewish history and tradition as I could.

I was part of the Jewish community at UNC-Chapel Hill and went through part of the process of converting, although (for various reasons) I never completed my conversion. My support for Israel is thorough and unconditional, and I have had to deal with the fact that my Christian family is somewhat uncomfortable with Judaism (although they don't support terrorism, either).

However, as a non-Jew who supports Israel, I sometimes worry that I'm being presumptious by having an Israeli flag on my car, or in my office, or by wearing a pin that has both Israeli and US flags on it. This might be a stupid question, but would a Jewish person find that offensive? (Obviously, I don't give a s**t if an anti-semite finds it offensive.)

Kimberly:
#44 that is not offensive to anyone but those who hate Israel. Keep displaying that flag.

The transcript of this show is now online.

Can you say "moral equivalence"?

Ben F (#46)

Great link, thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am tremendously disappointed when I look at Israel and again, I was raised in the Judeo-Christian thing. My grandfather read the Bible in Hebrew. But now I see Israel causing tremendous collateral damage. It is like, oh, well we had a raid. Oh, we killed a few schoolboys. Oh, well, no problem.

I was very frustrated with this woman, I think it is unfair to say that Israel is flippant about killing children. She's disappointed in Israel but had not a word of criticism about the Palestinians. Why do people not expect the Palestinians to take care of their children? I've written this so many times I bore myself with it, but what kind of parent allows their child out in the street when there is live gunfire? The Palestinians allow their children to throw stones and Molotov cocktails and bottles at Israelis soldiers in tanks, they know that there is going to be trouble, they know it, yet they still allow their children to do this. It is so repulsive to me. Why do they not look after their children!? It's criminal. I cannot stand the Palestinians absolute refusal to take responsibility for anything, and the world's willingness to indulge them.

Kimberly (#44)

This might be a stupid question, but would a Jewish person find that offensive?

Not at all, I find it touching. Bless you.

#44 Kimberly--

I can't imagine why a Jew would take offense at your pins or bumper stickers, unless that Jew happened to be anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist.

Thanks for a nice post. It sounds like you are in some sort of not-Christian but not-Jewish place at the moment. Are you Bat Noah, or still searching?