LGF

Euro-Dhimmis Suppress Antisemitism Report

Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 4:46:24 pm PST

A report on antisemitism in Europe commissioned by the European Union’s “racism watchdog” has been shelved, because it dared to conclude that Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents it examined—and to the unelected dhimmis who run the EU, that just wouldn’t do: EU body shelves report on anti-semitism. (Hat tip: Morgan.)

The Vienna-based European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) decided in February not to publish the 112-page study, a copy of which was obtained by the Financial Times, after clashing with its authors over their conclusions.

The news comes amid growing fears that there is an upsurge of anti-semitism in European Union countries. Among many recent incidents, a Jewish school near Paris was firebombed last Saturday, the same day two Istanbul synagogues were devastated by suicide truck bombs that killed 25 and wounded 300. ...

Following a spate of incidents in early 2002, the EUMC commissioned a report from the Centre for Research on Anti-semitism at Berlin's Technical University.

When the researchers submitted their work in October last year, however, the centre's senior staff and management board objected to their definition of anti-semitism, which included some anti-Israel acts. The focus on Muslim and pro-Palestinian perpetrators, meanwhile, was judged inflammatory.

"There is a trend towards Muslim anti-semitism, while on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice," said one person familiar with the report. "Merely saying the perpetrators are French, Belgian or Dutch does no justice to the full picture."

Some EUMC board members had also attacked part of the analysis ascribing anti-semitic motives to leftwing and anti-globalisation groups, this person said. "The decision not to publish was a political decision."

The board includes 18 members - one for each member state, the European Commission, Parliament, and the council of Europe - as well as 18 deputies. One deputy, who declined to be named, confirmed the directors had seen the study as biased.

In July, Robert Wexler, a US congressman, wrote to Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, demanding the release of the study.

Ole Espersen, law professor at Copenhagen University and board member for Denmark, said the study was "unsatisfactory" and that some members had felt anti-Islamic sentiment should be addressed too.

The EUMC, which was set in 1998, has published three reports on anti-Islamic attitudes in Europe since the September 11 attacks in the US.

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1 Flaming Sword  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 2:53:07pm

"Nothing to see here, move along."

2 Ms. Andi  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 2:55:53pm

weenies

3 Peter  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 2:59:37pm

Figures.

4 AG abu fried green dhimmis  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 2:59:51pm

Flame on!

5 Let's Roll  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:01:57pm

Miserable spineless bastards. Just like the Islam Unveiled story. Wouldn't want to let the truth get in the way of civilization's downfall in Europe.

6 DP  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:04:55pm

This and the threats to Robert Spencer and his publisher, are all Zionist conspiracies to harm Islam. This is well documented.

I just cannot understand why people on LGF cannot see the truth when it is staring them in the face. Do you wish ALLAH* to draw it for you, Eh Kufr?

*Forgiveness, oh merciful ALLAH for taking your name in vain.

7 steve miller abu ron ron ron abu ron ron  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:05:24pm

DP - what are you talking about?

8 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:05:30pm

I don't get it! Why is everyone so afraid of hurting the Muslims' feelings? This just pisses me off.

9 SecHumanist  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:06:44pm

zulubaby (8),

Cuz when their feelings are hurt they tend to explode.

10 Elizabeth  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:08:36pm

I give up! It's hopeless! These people KNOW the truth and they refuse to divulge it. If I were a Jew in Europe today I'd pack and have my kids sent to North America immediately. The household goods could come later.

I see the whole of Europe becoming mired in political correctness while turning a blind eye. It's like Vienna long ago; people are dining out and lights are glittering but underneath there's a deadly current.

To the Jews of Europe come to Canada and the US and then lets close our borders and become a North American continental state and strictly limit immigration from those countries except for the Jews. No Muslim immigration or Arabs or Persians from Iran or Iraqis.

Just pull up the drawbridge and let them have each other.

This thread makes me FURIOUS!!! :(

11 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:08:37pm

Hi mister! :-)

12 ytf  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:08:41pm

#7

Sarcasm, methinks.

13 ralph  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:08:52pm

#8 zulubaby

Why is everyone so afraid of hurting the Muslims' feelings?


Self esteem. But I say f@@k it.

14 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:10:46pm

zulubaby (#8),

I don't get it! Why is everyone so afraid of hurting the Muslims' feelings?

You're joking right?

Death threats, riots, church and synagogue burnings and bombings, killings, destruction, murders, ...

Should I go on?

15 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:11:11pm
16 Morgan  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:11:11pm

#8

I don't get it! Why is everyone so afraid of hurting the head of the Mafia's feelings?

The problem in a nutshell is that Jews protest violent attacks with editorials in the newspaper, while Muslims protest editorials in the newpaper with violent attacks.

17 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:11:31pm

#8 zulubaby

I don't get it! Why is everyone so afraid of hurting the Muslims' feelings?

The Eurocrats are afraid the Arabs would stop bribing them.

Europeans don't enjoy being sued by Eurocrat-funded Arab supremacists fronts.

18 Thoroughly Modern Hillbilly  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:12:22pm

Are they worried that if they write something mean about Islam, the Moors are going to sail in, burn their castles and rape their women?

Where's Charlemagne when you need him?

19 Zombo, the Watermelon Crusher.  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:13:13pm

Do it now, not next week.

20 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:14:41pm
Beate Winkler, a director, said the report had been rejected because the initial time scale included in the brief - covering the period between May and June 2002 - was later judged to be unrepresentative. "There was a problem with the definition [of anti-semitism] too. It was too complicated," she said.

What problem? There's nothing complicated about it at all.

anti-Semitism

1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.

They're even trying to pervert the meaning of anti-Semitism with their "Arabs are Semites too" bullshit. I'm furious.

21 Laura SF  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:16:18pm

My son is studying Islam in 7th grade in his Jewish day school. Today he told me that the Social Studies textbook they are using doesn't say anything bad about Muslims - it's a whitewash.

To his credit, he noticed this and asked his teacher about it. To the teacher's credit, the man answered, "Yeah, I know. An earlier version of the book took a more balanced approach, but the Muslims complained, so it got re-written this way."

They're censoring the textbooks in the U.S.A. It's happening... now.

22 steve miller abu ron ron ron abu ron ron  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:16:32pm

Because when Xtians or Jews are upset, they usually don't go around killing their opponents.

I guess.

I think the Europeans have some kind of infantile death wish. I really do.

What a contrast: There's the future. Bright, bold, undefined, ready for men and women of action to grasp and define. And then there's Europe.

Isaac Asimov wrote a short story about the regionalization of the Earth; he put the UK and Australia into the US camp, and Europe (sans UK) was the tired old lady of the world with little hope and no energy. Sad to think of the land that produced the Renaissance and the Reformation has sputtered out into a querelous group of old ladies. The land that produced Marco Polo, Vasco da Gama, Christophe Colon, Bismarck, and even Richelieu now has de Villepin, Schroeder, and Galloway.

Sad.

I know there are some left - like the beeman - but it seems the vast majority hope that if they just keep mum, they'll be left alone as slaves under the Islamite revolution. I think they keen with envy over the success of the West - the UK, the US, and Oz.

23 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:16:44pm

Oops, #11 was for SecHumanist.

24 ralph  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:17:52pm

#20 zulubaby

Arabs are Semites too" bullshit. I'm furious.

Minor editting point. Just put "Jew Hating".

25 steve miller abu ron ron ron abu ron ron  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:19:28pm

Who'da thunk it: a whole continent of people who want to run around putting "Kick Me!" signs on their backsides.

26 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:19:35pm

Watch how the French and Germans react when they are hit. And that day is coming sooner than they think.

France is still a colonial power and the French Foreign Legion are a bunch of sadistic animals.

Chickend do come home to roost.

27 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:20:03pm

chickens

MUST preview!

28 J. Lichty  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:22:45pm

Geepers:

I think they are the ones who suppressed Maurice Clarett's academic records last year too.

Go Blue! (that goes for you to BJW)

29 steve miller abu ron ron ron abu ron ron  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:23:32pm

denBeste has a good column today on the difference between the free nations of the world and Europe. Worth a read.

30 militarybrat  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:23:41pm

@21
They've been re-writing history in the textbooks for years.

Until I had so many kids I was a teacher in a Catholic school - it was disgusting some of the things they tried to get away with in textbooks.

31 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:25:16pm

#26 Paladin

Watch how the French and Germans react when they are hit. And that day is coming sooner than they think.

France is still a colonial power and the French Foreign Legion are a bunch of sadistic animals.

The real mean MF are the RMT, the RIAOM and the RIMaP(NC).

32 quark2  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:28:11pm

Hello MrPol. :) Long time no 'see'.

The Eunichs are holding onto false hope and lies that they can still appease the muslims. At the same time the rate of violence just keeps increasing. First the Saturday people and the Sunday people.

They'll learn and change their minds as they begin dying.

33 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:29:01pm

#26 Mr. Pol

Since leaving Nam on a stretcher, I've forgotten how to speak Acronym. Care to translate?

34 jimmy  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:29:46pm

One thing you have to remember is that the muslims 'wish' they were nazis. They are actually no where close to being as efficatious in killing as the nazis.

The muslims are evil scum, but they are simply impotent compared to the nazis, so they resort to self immollation and terrorism.

It's like an evil wet dream, to be a 21st century muslim.

And what's more, they've begun this by attacking America, something even the stupid nazis knew to not do before they got going.

When this is over, the muslim radicals and the left will be gone.

35 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:30:15pm

ralph (#13)

Self esteem. But I say f@@k it.

It's time then for the Muslims to get therapy. Why should the whole world be compromised because they suffer from low self-esteem?

Geepers (#14)

No, I'm not joking at all. I have no patience for this crap anymore.

Death threats, riots, church and synagogue burnings and bombings, killings, destruction, murders, ...

They do all those things anyway, and we walk on eggshells around them in the hopes that they won't completely destroy everything that we hold sacred. They have no respect for anything or anyone, we should not be pandering to their every whim -- giving in to bullies is not the way to get through life.

Mr Pol (#17)

Yeah, a bunch of whores. Disgusting.

36 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:30:20pm

#32 quark2

If you mean the Europeans, they don't believe it's possible to appease the Arabs either, know very well Arabs are dangerous, and hate them with a passion. If you mean the unelected Eurocrats, they don't give a shit, they're only interested in keeping the bribes flowing.

37 ralph  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:32:19pm

#31 mr. pol

France is still a colonial power and the French Foreign Legion are a bunch of sadistic animals.


That's what Ralph Peters on FNC was saying this evening.

38 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:33:31pm

#37 Ralph

That was a great interview. I just wish they had had more time for him.

39 quark2  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:35:15pm

@36 MrPol

I was referring to the unelected fools who are making all the decisions of trying to appease the [bigoted word]s.

I expect like other posters when the going gets rough the rough will get going...and more muslim blood will flow than european.

There needs to be signs installed, "Don't feed the animals".

40 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:38:11pm

J. Litchy,

The Bastards!

But hey, we don't even need Clarett to beat the Wolverines.

Getting together with Buckeye Abroad tomorrow for the game, he's on vacation from Germany for Thanksgiving.

41 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:38:23pm

ralph (#37)

What time was Ralph Peters on Fox?

42 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:38:49pm
43 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:39:48pm

#41 zulubaby

About 6:23 EST

44 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:43:15pm

#33 Paladin

Sorry. The RMT is the Chad march regiment. Currently in Noyon, for twenty years they beat everything Lybia sent south while fighting in the Lybian desert (northern Chad).

The RIAOM is the 5th over-seas marine infantry regiment. Based in Djibuti. They've been squashing Muslim rebellions since the end of WWII.

Finally, the RIMaP(NC) is the Pacific marine infantry regiment (New Caledonia). They are best known for cleaning up the Gossanah cave with flamethrowers, after the armed rebels surrendered and were summarily executed, back in 1988. No survivor among the Kanak tribes involved in the incident.

45 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:44:24pm

Paladin (#43)

Thanks, I want to watch that.

46 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:44:44pm

#42 bigel
Again? Look, I imagine everyone would like it better if I didn't have to call you on this BS. Yes there is rampant anti-Semitism in the EU, this thread pretty much is proof.
Will you knock off the " Nazi shithole in a death spiral." Bullshit? Please?

You can not blame the entire continent for the actions of the EU.

47 Kathianne  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:44:59pm

I teach social studies, World and American History in Catholic school for middle school. We use the Prentice Hall series for American, it's about as balanced as one can find anymore-and it's dominated by 'diversity' and American bashing. While my own PC education prevents me from ripping it to shreads, I do make sure the kids understand that the reason some of the entries do not 'grab' their attention the way others do, is that these 'featured' people could not and did not accomplish much. May have been the times precluded that, but that was the facts, ma'm.

On the other hand, I make sure they do detailed reports on the founders/framers of the US, along with philosophers like Rousseau, Montesquieu, Locke, and Hobbes. Whaddya know, they get it! Sort of reminds me of Bush's speech Wednesday. LOL, one of my 7th graders asked me today who Adam Smith was, we hadn't studied him and she wanted to know if he had done anything 'worthwhile.'

As said, this is a Catholic school, and very tolerant of diverging philosophies and religions. Not only in social studies, but also in religion, we are required to teach 'comparative religions' i.e., Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Protestantism. Oh yeah, legalism-(I think we made that up!) Tolerant or not-we make sure they understand that they are Catholic. (right)

This year, I've included xeroxes of the Koran-the beautiful and the ugly. Has opened some eyes, parents have called asking about it and thanking me.

48 HULUGU  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:45:20pm

"anti-semites, anti-semites---we don't need no stinkin' anti-semites"--the treasure of the european union

49 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:47:13pm

#44 Mr. Pol

Some bad MFs indeed! Glad they're on our side.

50 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:47:57pm

#46 reaganite

You can not blame the entire continent for the actions of the EU.

The whole continent is part of the EU or about to enter it, and the EU rules most of it. Kinda like the Politburo ruled Russia, Georgia, Ukraynia, Belarus, ...

51 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:48:32pm

#50 Mr Pol
You live in France, are you a Nazi?

52 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:48:55pm

#49 Paladin

Some bad MFs indeed! Glad they're on our side.

Alas, I'm not sure they're on our side.

53 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:51:33pm

#51 reaganite

You live in France, are you a Nazi?

No more than an American living in Berlin in 1940. And my French neighbours are no more Nazis than Germans living in Dresden in 1944 were. Or Japanese people living in Hiroshima in 1945.

54 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:51:48pm

#52 Mr. Pol

At least they are not against us.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

55 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:53:56pm
56 militarybrat  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:58:04pm

@47 Kathianne

Been there! I taught middle school, too. In Texas, so I was allowed to be a little more nitty gritty about some issues than I would be, say, here in California.

I used (and use now for my 11 year olds homeschooling) Holt's People, Places and Change.

I did make some changes in it, though, like the part dealing with Israel and the Palestinians. However, it gives a really good geography and base history lesson.

I found that my students usually would ask the very things that I wasn't supposed to talk about with them (for fear of "offending" someone).

57 Bad German  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:58:08pm

>Watch how the French and Germans react when they
>are hit. And that day is coming sooner than they think.

In Frankfurt (Germany) every second man is a muslim. There is no need the fight. The Turkey muslim make 7 children win this war, without fighting. If you tell something about "the german", whom do you mean: The arab-German, the turkey-german, the african-German ...

And the german Jews say, german have to open his borders. By the way, the jew leader of germany jews (Friedmann) is cäught with drugs and young Slave-prostitutes.

Austria and Haider is o.k. , they do not allow more muslim.

58 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:58:42pm

#53 Mr Pol

No more than an American living in Berlin in 1940. And my French neighbours are no more Nazis than Germans living in Dresden in 1944 were. Or Japanese people living in Hiroshima in 1945.

So, unless I'm misreading you, you agree then that not all of the continent are "Nazis"?

59 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 3:58:55pm

#55 bigel

my utter contempt, and yes, hatred for the place.

That's where you're wrong. The continent is no more to blame for this than the land of Russia was to blame for Stalin. And Europeans today are as much to blame as Germans in 1933. Blind, stupid, easily fooled, only interested in keeping their job and raising their family - evil by omission, if you will.

60 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:02:02pm

Laura SF (#21)

An earlier version of the book took a more balanced approach, but the Muslims complained, so it got re-written this way."

Typical hypocrisy -- according to Muslim textbooks Israel doesn't even exist.

61 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:02:16pm

#58 reaganite

So, unless I'm misreading you, you agree then that not all of the continent are "Nazis"?

I've said it before: the enemy is the unelected E.U. officials and the non-representative governments of the E.U. member countries - collectively known as "Europe". Just like "Germany" in 1944. Or "Japan" in 1945.

62 SecHumanist  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:02:44pm

zulubaby (23)

:D Heya babe.

63 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:05:01pm
64 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:05:46pm

#55 bigel

Let me ask you -- at what point will YOU consider Europe a lost cause and a Nazi sewer? What would it take to convince you?

Your hyperbole is for want of a better term, insane. You have stated in the past that unless a Euro posts to LGF they are untrustworthy (BS), you have stated that all of Europe are Nazi scum (dozens of times) is also BS. You over and over claim your "facts". How many Europeans do you know btw? How long have you spent there?

I find it truly amazing that you are rabidly frothing at the mouth over Europe, but ignore the US, which also has an anti-semitism problem.

65 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:06:54pm

#61 Mr Pol

I've said it before: the enemy is the unelected E.U. officials and the non-representative governments of the E.U. member countries - collectively known as "Europe". Just like "Germany" in 1944. Or "Japan" in 1945.

With that, we agree 100%.

66 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:07:17pm

Oh c'mon guys, please don't do this again.

67 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:07:41pm
They love Hitler. Especially the leftists that pretend to hate him.

Complete and utter bullshit!

68 KevinV  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:08:08pm

Mr. Pol's recitation of French Army activity in Chad and New Caledonia above reinforces something I've been thinking and saying for a long time.

Despite the sufficating political correctness and Euro-Speak that dominates the discourse in France, if push comes to shove and the French Muslims become a threat to the Republic in a real way, expect the French to act immediately, ruthlessly, and in a way that will shock the rest of the world, if it cares at that point.

Ditto for the Germans, I think.

This report being sent back as "unacceptable" proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that liberal racism has deep roots: minority groups cannot be held accountable for their actions, therefore any study that shows them resposible for their actions is unacceptable.

A recent study in LA showing the 12% black commuity responsible for 48% of homicides there was similarly unacceptable.

It is a Thoughtcrime.

69 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:08:33pm

#66 zulubaby
As you advised Geepers, Scroll.

70 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:11:27pm
71 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:11:40pm

I think you are absolutely right.

Faster, please.

72 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:13:33pm

That was for #368 Kevin V

73 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:14:53pm

#70 bigel
I was in no way trying to make the "equivalence" argument. I was pointing out that there is anti-Semitism in the US. It is you who miss the point. You make valid points, but, and a big but, that does not mean that they are all "Nazi scum". Get that through your head!

74 Paladin  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:15:14pm

Must not drink & type!

75 ESTEBAN  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:15:32pm

#47 Kathianne

"Show me a man who believes tolerance is a virtue and I'll show you a man who has no convictions." -G.K. Chesterton

But then the greatest Catholic lay thinker of the last century is probably unwelcome in the modern Catholic schools...

76 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:16:50pm

#63 bigel

Remember that recent poll that stated that Europeans (59% of them) thought Israel was the greatest threat to world peace?

Ah... people who like sausage and trust polls should never see how they're done.

Short version: don't trust any poll sponsored by a European organization or media.

These may be the decisions of EU bureaucrats, but even you have stated on LGF that this hatred of Jews is present in Europe far beyond just the EUrocrats in Brussels and Strousburg.

Yes, anti-Semitism is still rampant in Europe, and has risen significantly in the last few years, in part because it is encouraged or even rewarded by European gov'ts. A significant number of Europeans are anti-Semitic, and the EU structural anti-Semitism is well documented.

This does not mean all Europeans, nor even most Europeans, are anti-Semitic. Most of them (80%) don't care. They do not want to know. They are only interested in keeping their jobs and raising their families.

Bottom line, the majority of Europeans wants a Judenrein Europe every bit as much as the Marxo-nazi Eurocrats.

Wrong. Bottom line, the majority of Europeans don't want to know, it's not their problem, they have trouble enough with their jobs and families. They do not give a shit either way. Just like Germans in 1933 - most of them didn't care, including among those that voted for the NSDAP.

Most of those who do care are anti-Semitic pieces of shit, though.

If this type of Jew-hatred was not in sync with the majority of Europeans, I am sure some Europeans (other than Jews) would have something to say about it.

Thierry Imbot did, and he figured he was well-known and nothing would happen to him. He was wrong. Check Google.

But from what I understand, it is only Jews that show up at rallies to support Israel and protest anti-semitism.

No, actually, Jews are a minority in those rallies. And there are more Jews in anti-Israel rallies than in Israel-supporting rallies.

77 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:17:12pm
78 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:17:21pm
As you advised Geepers, Scroll.

I'll do one better than that and leave. Enjoy watching reaganite and bigel bicker everyone!

79 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:21:16pm
80 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:22:01pm

#77 bigel

I don't say all

We both know you have on numerous occasions said "all". If you could refrain from your "Nazi death spiral" comments, I think you would find me someone would support you. That is, only if you stop branding all of Europe and stop asking for their nuclear annihilation.

81 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:23:27pm

#70 bigel

Do you think Jews have any future in Europe? Mr Pol has indicated that more than half of all French Jews are expected to leave in the next five years, and they are leaving from other nations as well.
Doesn't sound like a place that Jews find very hospitable, does it?

The NSDAP got 30% of the votes in 1933. And according to Shirer, most of those votes were from people who were desperate for a job, not for killing Jews. Despite only a minority of Germans being actively, rabidly anti-Semitic, few Jews found Germany hospitable from 1933 to 1945.

82 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:24:36pm
83 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:26:39pm

#82 bigel

Europe is in a death spiral. Its death will be in the form of eternal enslavement under the Islamofascists, ushering their Muslim version of the 1000-year Reich.

Whatever drug you're taking, put it down. You make the word "paranoid" sound paranoid!

84 KevinV  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:27:08pm

Bigel -

You seriously think *Bavarians* and *Austrians* will sit by while the Islamists set up a Shari'a state in Europe.

Ain't gonna happen. It's take much to wake them up, but when they do they'll take care of business faster than you can say Obergruppenfuhrer...

85 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:27:35pm
86 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:29:51pm
87 K.  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:29:58pm

#21 Laura SF

y son is studying Islam in 7th grade in his Jewish day school.

Why?

88 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:30:43pm

#79 bigel

I have read many internet pieces where Jews lament how they are the only ones who show up for Support Israel/Fight Jew-hatred rallies.

That's simply not true in France and in Belgium. I am not sure about the rest of Europe, but I doubt it.

And the"80% don't care" argument doesn't particularly fly in France, a country where people are known to "go to the barricades" for every perceived injustice.

France. Attendance of the "anti-war" rallies: around 150,000 IIRC. Attendance of the anti-pension reform rallies: 2.5 millions. Total French population: 60 millions.

U.K. 300,000 against fox hunting, 100,000 at the last "anti-war" in London. Brits are more concerned about foxes than about terrorists. But most don't care for either.

Same thing everywhere in Europe. 80% is probably low.

89 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:34:22pm
90 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:35:41pm

#85 bigel

The EU knows exactly what it is doing about Jews and Israel. And so do most Europeans. And they are doing this in spite of the lessons that history should teach them.

You are only half right. The EU knows exactly what it is doing, yes. Most Europeans don't.

I guess one has to live in Europe to understand. No reliable newspapers, no reliable news networks, no reliable news agencies, systematic censorship of anything that does not strictly follow the EU guidelines, including assassination by gov't officials of anybody who manages to be heard before running a smear campaign against them... How are most Europeans supposed to know, when they have less access to information than North Koreans?

The press had more freedom in Germany in 1944 than it has today in Europe.

91 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:38:04pm

bigel

The EU knows exactly what it is doing about Jews and Israel. And so do most Europeans.

You've made a big step, instead of "all", now it's "most". You're making progress, one day after intensive psychotherapy and many therapeutic drugs, you may one day get to the "some" part.

92 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:38:29pm

#89 bigel

How do you think an Islamic Empire in Europe will be avoided? Look at what this piece is about! Europeans are afraid to criticize Muslims for their Nazi Jew-hatred!

Not exactly. Eurocrats don't want to criticize Muslims, and will actively hide any information about Muslim Judenhass from the people.

How will Europeans avoid being overrun by Islam? Probably by getting violently rid of their current political structures, and resort to overwhelming force to squash the Muslims already in Europe. Who knows, they might even succeed.

93 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:38:43pm
94 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:39:36pm

#91 reaganite

Too bad those "some" are the overwhelming majority in the ruling elites, though.

95 KevinV  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:39:49pm

Bigel -

Again, I would argue that the situation in LA prior to the "Rodney King" riots is analogous. Due to white guilt and other liberal monoliths, you could not at that time say anything bad about the black community in LA. They were a small percentage of the population that was and now still are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime, all out of proportion to their numbers.

You couldn't talk about it. You couldn't refer to it. God forbid if the LA Times actually printed anything related to it.

But...when the riots hit and LA got in serious trouble--not theoretically, but real serious civil unrest--all that PC bullshit died immediately while the LAPD and (many people are not aware of this) the USMC kicked some serious ass and even killed people for violating curfew.

When things get serious, this PC crap will stop, because most people see it as crap. And most won't commit cultural suicide for crap.

When and if the Islamic radicals become a major threat, not the minor irritant every once in a while that they are now, I am convinced that the germans, the french and others will act just as Los Angelinos did during the riots: quickly, ruthlessly and with no regard to PC crap.

That is roughly the scenario I envision. And, given the French and German record in this regard, it ain't gonna be pretty, either.

96 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:41:29pm
97 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:42:49pm

#89 bigel
Last year NJ blocked a study that said African-American males were more likely to speed, even though the study proved just that. Does that mean by extrapolation that the US is going to be a Muslim country?

I'm sorry, but I just don't see Europe having the backbone to prevent this.

Yeah, well myself and millions of others have raised the BS flag about your "chicken little" view of the world.

This is simple, go off to your survival cabin deep in the Rockies and hide while the rest of the world gets on with their lives.

98 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:43:30pm

#93 bigel

Most Europeans have internet access.

Slightly less than 50% have Internet access, actually. But more people are getting it every day.

Perhaps more Frenchman should learn English and check out conservative news sites from the USA.

Yes, they should, and frankly if they did, then they would care more. I guess there's a reason the French gov't has incited French people to learn German, Spanish and Russian rather than English.

Does all that talk about the French "cultural exception" and the "protection of the French language against the English influence" suddenly make more sense?

99 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:45:38pm
100 Engineer  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:46:19pm

bigel

Do you have to do this every time? I have seen trolls that don't cause an much damage as you do.

Like Zulubaby, I am out of here.

101 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:46:58pm

#94 Mr Pol

Too bad those "some" are the overwhelming majority in the ruling elites, though.

True enough, but eventually, they will get put out on their asses. The terrorists have made three major mistakes so far, 9-11 during a Republican term, Bali against the Aussies, and now the British consulate. Soon, the rest of the Western world will wake up, it's already happening.

102 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:48:01pm

#96 bigel

By the time Europe gets up the nerve to quash the Muslims, Iran will have nukes and missiles capable of hitting Europe. And she will blackmail Europe into letting the Muslims take over, or Europe gets nuked.

Europe will never get the nerve to quash the Muslims. Europeans will. And they won't give a shit about Muslim threats either.

Hint: in Russia, people today see Ivan IV as a "good tzar". In France, people today see Louis XI as a "good king". I'm pretty sure Serbians see Vlad the Impaler as a "good ruler".

103 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:49:56pm

#101 reaganite

Soon, the rest of the Western world will wake up, it's already happening.

Alas, I don't see it happening. But I sure do hope you're right.

104 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:50:53pm

#99 bigel

What did Muslims have to do with a study of black driving habits?

Exactly nothing, it was hyperbole, as are most of your posts.

105 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 4:53:36pm

#103 Mr Pol

Alas, I don't see it happening. But I sure do hope you're right.

Think "quagmire", even though the L³ press in the US has been spouting it for months, the majority of Americans still think we're on the right track in the WoT. The Islaminazis are pissing more and more nations off every day. BTW, making more enemies...

106 Mr Pol  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:05:20pm

#105 reaganite

It's not that simple. Look at Russia: Chechen terrorism is funded by the Saudi and the Iranians, and most Chechen terrorist groups are linked to AQ. But Russia is selling nuclear plants to the Iranians and "Want Bigger UN Role in Iraq".

107 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:12:42pm

#106 Mr Pol

It's not that simple. Look at Russia: Chechen terrorism is funded by the Saudi and the Iranians, and most Chechen terrorist groups are linked to AQ. But Russia is selling nuclear plants to the Iranians and "Want Bigger UN Role in Iraq".

The Russians are in the same boat as the French, waning influence of once great empires. The Russians haven't figured out that the Arabs are no longer dependant on them, nor are they afraid of them. The Russians are starting to catch on though. They want the UN in Iraq because they lost billions when we rolled through, same as the French. I also imagine they were pissed that we were pressing them on the Islaminazis in Chechnya.

108 SoCalJustice  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:13:24pm

(#63) bigel

They love Hitler. Especially the leftists that pretend to hate him.

(#67) reaganite

Complete and utter bullshit!

I hate to get into one of these spats, especially on the side I'm going to take, because it's too depressing.

But that Greek composer prick Mikis Theodorakis (of Zorba the Greek fame) who just last week said:

Jews are the root of evil

is a leftist.

I'm not saying he loves Hitler. I'm saying he agrees with Hitler - which is worse.

109 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:18:25pm

#108 SoCalJustice
I am not, nor have I ever said that anti-Semitism is non-existent in Europe. I have said, and will continue to say that not all of Europe are that way. If bigel could get that through his skull, I would not have to keep calling him on his BS.

110 Julia the Horrible  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:20:25pm

I cant believe I actually read down to the bottom of this thread...jeez...

The actual question is, who can really impartially undertake and publish a study of antisemitism in Europe? Or anywhere else?

What group/organization/from what country?

Any takers?

111 Promethea  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:20:53pm

To change the subject . . .

I have a question for Europeans reading this. Do you think that the EU can only be an elitist organization, or do you think that individual European countries can force it to reflect the will of the local people?

From what I have read of the EU, it doesn't look like a very good organization. It looks like an institution that could break up rather easily.

112 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:22:13pm

#111 Promethea
I'm not a Euro, but

It looks like an institution that could break up rather easily.

We can only hope...

113 SoCalJustice  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:27:09pm

(#109) reaganite:

Of course not all of Europe is anti-Semitic.

But the levels are shockingly high, and in the modern age, it's almost unbelievable - which is exactly what they thought in 1933. And when you think about it that way, it stops being unbelievable, and starts being expected.

Europe's the second most anti-Semitic region in the entire world, right after the Arab/Muslim world.

And I don't agree with everything bigel says, but I do agree that European leftists are as anti-Semitic as the European rightists - if not more so, because some of the rightists have decided (temporarily, probably) that they hate Muslims too, and they no longer have the time to focus solely on Jews.

American leftists are working their way in that direction too. Some have already gotten there.

114 ploome  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:28:43pm

here, Bad German posted an excellent article on EUrope

actually , a must read

[Link: www.algathafi.org...]

115 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:30:12pm

the whole of the EU is Farmisht anyway. Let them burn

116 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:33:37pm

#113 SoCalJustice
Again, I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. As I have said many times, not all of them are that way. That has always been my point.

bigel is advocating killing them all, to take out the few/some/or many anti-Semites. That is where I have my problem.

You cannot brand someone a Nazi because he/she lives in the same country. That is why I have and will continue to call bigel on his BS.

117 hans ze beeman  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:44:19pm

#114: ploome

That's indeed interesting. In contrast to what Schröder and others think, Turkey would indeed be the classic Trojan horse, as the Balkan was another Trojan horse in Europe for Islamism. Turkey is a janus-head, it has two souls. Those who want to press it into the EU will cause the EU's failure. Is this the reason why Bush supports Turkey's entrance to the EU...?

I'm glad the conservatives in Germany appear to have recognized this, and oppose Turkey to enter the EU. Not because I'm necessarily the big EU fan (still... alot of problems here that will be difficult enough to solve, if it's possible at all), but because this would certainly lead to tensions in the long run.

118 bigel[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:44:23pm
119 Julia the Horrible  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:46:07pm

Please correct me if I am wrong.

According to Natan Sharansky, Jewish intellectuals joined the Bolsheviks and were part of the driving force behind the Revolution in Russian. They got slammed after the revolution and were worse off than ever.

Jews in this country (USA) became involved in unionization and workers rights, secular humanism and socialist movements, and made up a significant proportion of the liberal movement in this country. In light of the WASP identity with Republicanism, Jews gravitated toward the left and the Democratic Party.

Now the left has now come out against the intervention in Afghansitan and Iraq, and in favor of the Palestinians. A new anti-semitism both at home and abroad has forced a new choice---what's an American Jew to do?

What is their political identity?

120 SoCalJustice  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:49:41pm

(#116) reaganite:

bigel is advocating killing them all, to take out the few/some/or many anti-Semites. That is where I have my problem.

Like I said, I don't agree with everything he says either, including the "kill them all" stuff. But when I saw that EU poll, I thought: well, 59% of Europe "is a Nazi sewer" (or whatever the actual results were).

I'm pretty square with Mr. Pol on this. Most people don't think about it at all - they have jobs, families, homes, pets, the telly, blah blah blah.

But the absolute least that Europe owes its Jews (and if we can speak about Jews as a collective, we can speak about Europeans too) is to protect them from irrational, misdirected violence and hatred - not merely apologize for it when it happens and blame it on Ariel Sharon. And Europe has utterly failed in that responsibility to date, embarassingly so, in my opinion. And I don't see too many actual efforts being made just yet to change the situation for the better.

Bush had to go over there and scold them - and their reaction was probably that he's a Zionist stooge and wants Jewish money for his re-election, rather than "you know what? he's right!"

And they're withholding a study on anti-Semitism because it doesn't address anti-Muslim issues? After releasing 3 reports on anti-Muslims sentiment?

Sorry, but all I can say after that is Fuck the E.U. (no, not all Europe, but the E.U.).

It's been a bad Fall for anti-Semitism - even by normal standards, so I'm a bit keyed up, on edge - and I apologize.

121 hans ze beeman  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:53:28pm

btw, thanks reaganite for again pointing out that in the rise of anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism in Europe, coupled with a blindness to the threat of Islamofascism, there are still Europeans who fight it, and thanks for tirelessly debunking OTT-ad-nauseam-arguments.

Despite the wish of some, I'm quite sure France and Germany will be on the side of the US within 5-10 years, maybe even faster. Not only because their policies have failed, but also because there will be no reasonable option left. But the current signs are alarming, though some are weaking up.

122 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:54:17pm

#118 bigel
How many times does Geepers and I need to quote you?

To put it mildly, you are wildly distorting my arguments, but you just seem to have too much fun beating up on me to actually pay attention to what I do actually say.

Quoting you is "distorting" your arguments?

I do not advocate the casual nuking of Europe as you like to tell all of LGF

No, you advocate "nuking the Nazi scum". BTW, killing millions of innocent people.
Play the hyperbole game all you want, you are an irrational hate filled little person who can't get over the fact that not all of Europe hates Jews.

I do not advocate her doing something so drastic and irreversible as a first strike, just for the hell of it - not against Europe, anyway

We both know you have said just that on so many occasions, don't try to play the AP/NYT revisionist history BS here, your posts are in the archives.

The fact that you wish to distort it that way is something I can't stop you from doing, but it's not the truth, and you know it.

Do you really need me to quote you from the archives? I think not.

123 Roger L. Simon  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:54:50pm

I have a few comments on this on my blog.

124 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:55:52pm

#120 SoCalJustice
If you think I am defending the EU, read my response to Mr Pol up the thread.

125 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:56:58pm

#121 hans ze beeman
You're welcome. You and I both know what I'm talking about.

126 Siccari Lurker  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 5:57:42pm
106   Mr Pol  11/21/2003 07:05PM PST

It's not that simple. Look at Russia: Chechen terrorism is funded by the Saudi and the Iranians, and most Chechen terrorist groups are linked to AQ. But Russia is selling nuclear plants to the Iranians and "Want Bigger UN Role in Iraq".

Since when have the Iranians funded or, indeed, helped the Chechens in any meaningful way?

Sure the Saudi Entity was in Chechnia, monetarily and ideologically, day One. This very issue was splayed all over the Russian press, where Putin was quoted jibbing Bush about supporting [terrorist] states 'like' SA and (as seen by the Russians) their ally Pakistan when Bush was last in Moscow.

AFAIK, it's an open secret that the Russians have an agreement with the Iranians. The Mullas promised not to incite Muslim radicals in any former soviet republics and certainly not even think about it in Russia proper. Granted only the Azeris (being Shia) where the most susceptible and the most militant (during the Nogorno Karabakh war). You don't see the Azeris declaring Sharia these days, correct? The Ruskopfs in return would build dual use Nuclear plants for their new friends. They would also blow hot air into Sharon's ear. At least he walked away with an agreement on the Phalcon project, still I suspect the Indians had a card to play in that deal.

BTW, this very fact shows clearly that the Iranians are, in fact, "Rational Actors" who will play ball when MAD is implied. Lets not forget unlike most of Europe the russians have a big stick that will quickly follow when the carrot is rejected.

127 ploome  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:02:13pm

Hans.Turkey joing the EU would be a disaster

what are the reasons for the EU altogether?

128 hans ze beeman  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:11:20pm

#127: ploome

Peace, economy, but certainly not freedom. If this constitution is implemented, the EU will bleed out - because the best will leave it with even more speed than now. The EU central bank is now supposed to be more under political control, the EU has no own military, etc. etc.

-> The EU now only works because the US is still protecting Europe. A EU against the US will fail to 100%. If in doubt, nearly any European country will choose the US over the Franco-Allemand empire.

129 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:19:09pm

reaganite (#122),

It's pointless.

130 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:25:16pm

#129 Geepers
Maybe so, but I'm not going to quit. He's no different than the jihadis. Hate is hate.

131 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:32:15pm

reaganite,

I agree.

But arguing any point with him anymore is just running laps. I know you know that, I hate going in circles.

132 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:38:15pm

#131 Geepers
I look at it this way, let one asshole spew venom, then the rest use the license to spew theirs. I have to call everyone on it. I called VFI, Gordon, HWSNBN, and many others.

I have no problem killing my enemies, I'm not going to kill his neighbor. I most certainly am not going to let bigel salivate for it, at least not here.

133 ördög  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:47:16pm

Raganite, Bigel is a hot head and tneds to make sweeping pronouncements, true, but you need to grow up a bit. Seriously.

Call him on specifics, but do not make sweeping statements about him as well. You two are like inverse mirrorrs.

I assume that you are a tad older than him, so some wisdom is in order, eh?

134 Karl Koola  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:47:20pm

It's coming the clash of civilizations and the Muslims are writing their own epitaph:

"Here we lie the second coming of the Nazis that were rightfully smote by those who love their children more than us Islamonazis hate our own."

This view is based upon the speech's from mosques, the Arab press, Moonbat Madhatter, Islamic governments and our friendly Saudi front group CAIR.

135 ördög  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:48:16pm

tneds=tends

136 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:51:13pm
137 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:51:59pm

reaganite,

I'm with ya. Just pointing it out over and over again is so tedious sometimes.

Everyone should be given a chance. ;-)

138 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:57:08pm

#133 ördög

Call him on specifics, but do not make sweeping statements about him as well.

I can produce quote after quote of bigel's, where did I make a "sweeping" statement? Maybe you should "grow up a bit. Seriously".

I assume that you are a tad older than him, so some wisdom is in order, eh?

I'm supposed to ignore genocidal statements?

139 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 6:59:36pm

#137 Geepers

I'm with ya. Just pointing it out over and over again is so tedious sometimes.

As opposed to his over and over "Nazi scum" comments?

I've given him numerous chances, he can't get it.

140 no daft  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:00:43pm

You could say that all Americans were like President Bush.

Then you could say that all Americans were like Michael Moore.

Both were in the U.K. last week.

So how am i to choose between the two?.

They both hail from America.

141 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:04:05pm

reaganite,

Tedious: I was talking about me arguing with him, not you.

142 J. Lichty  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:04:37pm

Geeps:

I will be stuck in the office all day tommorow. Yes I am breaking Shabbat, but more importantly I am missing THE game.

I will be taping it though so I can fast-forward through all of the Buckeye three and outs.

I would be at the game if I were not working, but anyway I see the game is good enough. I will be following the score and I will watch it regardless of outcome.

My prediction:

Michigan 20; the forces of darkness 16. Say hello to the Abroad one for me and Gooo Blooo.

(My apologies to LFG minions for turning this into a football chat room but this is the one game of the year where i will completely post off topic -- the game IS that important)

143 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:06:04pm

#140 no daft

So how am i to choose between the two?.

They're both Nazi scum!, oh wait, L³'s!, shit, umm, they're Presbyterians! Damn it, um, oh wait, I get it, they have exactly nothing to do with each other!

Thank you.

144 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:07:21pm

#141 Geepers
Sorry, I misunderstood.

145 ördög  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:10:37pm

Reaganite, take Bigel's and your comments from the tread and line them up and look at it objectively, without the emotional charge.
You just decided that he is a genocidal maniac some time ago and nothing seems that would remove this filter from your perception.

No matter what, it is now like this:
R: you did
B: did not
R: you did
B: did not
R: you did
B: did not
R: you did
B: did not
R: you did
B: did not
...ad infinitum.

You meanwhile forgotten to notice subtle changes in our friend Bigel. He starts to understand, but you refuse to see it, your mind is made up and that's that.

Try to point to him some of his fallacies in specific posts, to the point, once only whenever encountered, but without impled invectives. You my be surprised to find out that it may just work.

146 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:15:34pm

#145 ördög

take Bigel's and your comments from the tread and line them up and look at it objectively, without the emotional charge.

I am not taking bigel's comments from only this thread, but from his extremely numerous posts on way too many threads.

If I posted on one thread that we should kill most Presbyterians, but on dozens of others said "every" Presbyterians, which would be the driving factor? One thread, or dozens?

147 Promethea  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:18:18pm

Let's talk about the EU . . .

Any more opinions from Europeans and Britons? Is this a viable organization, or is it an elitist overlord that will break up due to its inability to serve the needs of its member countries?

148 SoCalJustice  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:25:13pm

(#147) Promethea

AS a non-EU subject, my guess is that the EU (Parliament, member nations and citizens) will attempt to stick together at all costs, even if detrimental to its member nations, out of some twisted desire to be a "check" on American power.

149 no daft  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:25:37pm

#143 Reaganite

There is an old British saying.

"You can't tar everyone with the same brush."

150 ördög  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:26:19pm

#146 reaganite

"I am not taking bigel's comments from only this thread, but from his extremely numerous posts on way too many threads."

Exactly. That is what I am saying. Take it one at a time, count to 20 to cool down, and respond specifically to that particular post, as if you saw Bigel for the first time. You'll see that would be more productive approach.

151 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:29:03pm

#149 no daft
The three years I lived in Oxon, I learned a few things about the Brits. Many of which Americans sould learn. Long live the UK.

152 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:30:57pm

#150 ördög

More evidence that Europe is just a worthless, degenerate Nazi shithole in a death spiral.

bigel's first post on this thread...

Need I say more?

153 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:31:11pm

ördög (#145),

You meanwhile forgotten to notice subtle changes in our friend Bigel. He starts to understand, but you refuse to see it, your mind is made up and that's that.

ördög, from his very first post almost exactly a year ago, we've been having to listen to bigel's hate spew:

I guess killing 6 million Jews wasn't enough for the Europeans. Now, the EU will subsidize the new Nazis (the ones who yell "Allahu Akbar" instead of "Sieg Heil") so that they can finish the job.
If God forbid, Israel ever faces Armageddon, hopefully she will have the missiles and weapons to wipe out that pathetic, racist and immoral piece of sh*t excuse for a continent.

It's a one note "kill-them-all" record that skips.

Stick around for another 51 weeks and see if it's still going on. And if you're not sick of it by then as well.

And you know what the really ridiculous thing is, bigel's calls for the nuclear destruction of Europe, would "finish the job." Unless you think Israeli's nukes don't kill Jews.

154 Kathianne  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:38:37pm

Regarding #56 and #75: I agree with you both.

#56 I supplement my lessons with handouts of Koran and "We the People" text book. Very basic and to the point civics lessons, constitutional based. Excellent program.

#75, Catholic schools in the US are very PC, though thought of as 'right wing', nothing could be further from the truth. In masses and 'study groups' the lesson to be learned is that the US has brought on the problems by ignoring the plight of the poor. I'm assuming that was your point and ifso, you are correct.

155 Devon Hill  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:43:41pm

To #11 Elizabeth...

I agree...we need to become one federation here in North America, take in all the Jews of North America and Christians of Islamic Lands, ban completely Islamic immigration save for secular and apostate muslims, and protect ourselves...

However, I hope to God that Europe regains its fighting spirit...I have too agree with Bigel that things look very bleak indeed and many writers have said the same thing...

But surely Europeans are not going to stand by and watch Islamic savages destroy there heritage and history???

Devonator

156 pink cream cheese  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:46:12pm

aren't most people anti-semitic?

157 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:46:50pm

#156 pink cream cheese
FOAD

158 pink cream cheese  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:47:19pm

f off and die?

159 reaganite  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:49:16pm

Too unclear for you? Think the worst, that's what I meant.

160 Geepers  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:52:31pm

J. Litchy (#142),

Sorry to hear you have to work. I'll tell Buckeye Abroad you said "Hi".

the game IS that important

For any one who doesn't understand, Ohio State - Michigan is THE rivalry:

Ohio State vs. Michigan: college football’s best rivalry

ESPN branded Ohio State-Michigan the greatest rivalry in sports history. Ali-Frazier was second.

This year: OSU (#4) vs. Michigan (#5)

Go Bucks!

161 pink cream cheese  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:55:39pm

There is anti-semitism in the US also and elsewhere

The national poll of 1,000 American adults conducted April 26 through May 6, 2002 found that 17% of Americans - or about 35 million adults - hold views about Jews that are "unquestionably anti-Semitic."

[Link: www.adl.org...]

162 K.  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:56:35pm

what's a "bigel" anyways?

163 K.  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:57:35pm

#161 pink cream cheese

17% is not "most people"

164 ördög  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 7:58:50pm

Reaganite & Geepers,

I know that Bigel often does not discriminate. I have no problem to call him on that whenever that is the case.
I can also understand it may be a bit tiresome after a while, I am not here for that long, so perhaps I did not run out of patience. But it is now rather a matter of dynamics and preceptions, rather than specific substance.

Have some urgent work to do, so have to leave it at that. Some other time.

165 pink cream cheese  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 8:03:57pm

[Link: www.sullivan-county.com...]

"The survey found that 35 percent of Americans fell into the "middle" category, having some faintly prejudiced views but not any strident bias. Forty-eight percent of the country was deemed prejudice-free, down from 53 percent in 1998"

100-48= 52% of americans have at least faintly prejudiced views

166 Macula  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 8:41:51pm

Europe is waking up, Bigel. The "man in the street" gets it, some newpapers Telegraph get it too.


Many Europeans have been astonishingly slow to understand the impact of what happened on September 11. Yesterday's atrocities are yet another reminder that the West and its allies, and moderate Muslims throughout the world, are up against a foe, who, blasphemously, given that God is the creator of life, glorify their deaths and the innocent people they kill as a passport to Paradise. They represent a radically new and ever-present danger. And the sooner we wake up to it, the better.

You can start calling for the destruction of Europe once you have lived in every country and spoken to every person, you hate-filled bigot.

167 cosmicview  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 8:43:24pm

what an entertaining thread
Still if one lives in Europe, reads the papers watches the news how could one not be anti Semitic

Oh by the way, to continue on the longest topic of the night--no I am right

168 marymary  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 9:18:20pm

#16

The problem in a nutshell is that Jews protest violent attacks with editorials in the newspaper, while Muslims protest editorials in the newpaper with violent attacks.

Nicely put.

169 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 9:25:17pm

Checking if five hours later and you're still discussing bigel. Fucking pathetic.

170 Lee C.G. Feagee  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 9:44:25pm

Euro-weenies on a bun.

171 Dom  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 9:58:48pm

Reaganite, what a star. Macula, cool post. Cosmicview, I don't know. I think if you check what percentage actually read a paper let alone the 'mainstream' LLL press it will go some way to answering your question (for better or worse).

172 Ima Dhimmi  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 10:42:21pm

It's not really anti-semitism when it's committed by arabs because they too are semites.

173 zulubaby  Fri, Nov 21, 2003 11:23:43pm

From Ha'aretz:

An extract from the report obtained by the Financial Times stated: "...it can be concluded that the anti-Semitic incidents in the monitoring period were committed above all by rightwing extremists and radical Islamists or young Muslims."

Beate Winkler, EUMC director, told the paper the report was shelved because of problems with time scales but also due to the overly complicated definition of anti-Semitism. "Of course there are people of Arab descent committing such acts. This will be represented in our next report," she added.

I wonder if that is a direct quote from the report. It does seem that way. Hopefully Beate will have figured out the definition of anti-Semitism by the time they issue the lies whitewashed report.

174 Jafub  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 1:24:18am

#147 promethea

The U.N.will stand a good chance as soon as both the german and the french populist governments ( who are the true agitators in the cooling of U.S.-EU relationship ) fall from power.

I believe ( and i could ( most probably am ) be wrong there, so apologie,s beforehand ) that it was plato who first dismissed the notice of what is called an "Ochlogargie" I.E. a state run by constant input from it's citizen's, who's viewpoints can be changed overnight by rumour, legend and in our time television-program or internet-site ( and rumour or legend ) and this is exactly the way that chirac and schroeder have chosen to lead there people.

175 Jafub  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 1:28:42am

Sorry that should read EU in the the first line of my comment.

Need. More. Caffeine.

176 Outsider  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 1:43:13am

#118 - bigel

I do not advocate the casual nuking of Europe as you like to tell all of LGF (and thanks to you, half of them believe it).

But that is what many people, and I among them understood directly from your comments, not from Reaganite's interpertation.
Reaganite is not leading a LGF conspiracy against you.

If you are misunderstood, that is mostly your fault.

Being pessimistic about the fate of Europe is legitimate and logical. Being hot headed is not.

177 Engineer  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:04:19am

Is this stillgoing on? Look folks, Bigel is consumed by his hatred of Europe. He doesn’t present any facts to back up his position and he doesn’t listen to facts that don’t agree with what he thinks.

Not only is he derailing threads and chasing people away, but he is providing quotes for the LLL who claim that LGF is racist and full of hate.

Until Charles gets fed up, just scroll past him and don’t answer him.

178 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:38:44am

Long time "problem"..Who gets to DEFINE what Antisemitism is and is not. Who is in charge of that definition? If you leave it up to others they will just define almost NO behavior as antisemitism and keep doing what they are doing. Therefore I dont allow others to define what behaviors and attitudes put me and mine in jeopardy.

As we can plainly see by this article, Europe now decided to Not recognize any behavior as antisemitism as such. And then of course they are innocent and dont have to even address whats going on OR take steps to STOP it. Worse comes to worse, they will never talk about Antisemitism without saying there is an equal or more amount of AntiIslamism...even IF it is not true..and even IF ONE group is attacking the West and you would expect normal natural anger at that particular group. The two phen. are NOT the same and never have been.

179 ploome  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:59:56am

162 K.

a breed of dog?

round lump of bread with a hole?

in either case, sesame seeds, please

180 Promethea  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:22:13am

#174 Jafub . . .

I just got up. Wow, Plato before breakfast!

Thanks for this insight. I'm going to use it from now on, as it explains a lot of what I've observed about the French and German positions re the U.S.

However, as others have said, France and Germany will also have to deal with the Islamofascists, so being anti-American will just not cut it. Hope the EU can be democratized soon.

181 Short Fat Corporal  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:26:42am

re: the Reaganite/bigel debate.

OK, so bigel is obviously bigoted against the Europeans (and I'll admit now, I am too. Even with the evidence that some Europeans think and not all of them are icky Jew baiters, as seen by several posters here).

But, think as the Sampson option (if it exists) as analogous to the MAD we maintained against the Russians. No American (true American) wanted to BBQ Russian serfs; that was just the threat that kept Russian tank crews swilling hydro in the laager instead of grinding up Germans under their treads.

In a like sense, The EU has provided material and moral support to the countries (PA incl.) whose goal it is to "drive the Israelis into the sea". Shouldn't the EU governments face the fear of retribution for their actions? It's not like the Eurocrats have bomb shelters like the commisars did- oops, do. (To be sure, the EU elite kept the kneepads in good order if the Russians should have come, but that just means those kneepads are still ready for the Islamics)

Yes, this is holding people responsible for the actions of their government/society, actions the citizens may not even agree with. Yes, this is immoral... but we still maintain OUR deterrents.

182 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:43:32am

ploome,

You're so funny. But you want sesame seeds on your dog?

183 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:55:52am

Engineer (#177),

Agreed, but ...

I use to say the same thing to zulubaby when she would argue incessantly with ranbutan who had the same style of throwing up pure inflammatory BS and then hoping people who didn't know what he was doing would be influenced by it. She wanted to counter it to make sure that no one thought that what he was saying was true or acceptable.

184 ploome  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:04:28am

Geepers...hope you have a strong stomach

Vietnamese boy 'sold as dog meat'

makes me sick!

185 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:11:13am

Short Fat Corporal (#181),

But, think as the Sampson option (if it exists) as analogous to the MAD we maintained against the Russians.

It's not the same AT ALL.

We we're in an openly declared 'cold war' with an openly declared enemy. Our strategy was public and agreed upon (MAD) "We won't attack you, but if you attack us you WILL be destroyed." Would it be in Israel's best interest to create such an official treaty with the EU and declare them as enemies worthy of threats of nuclear annihilation?

And if, as you say, the EU "has provided material and moral support to the countries (PA incl.) whose goal it is to "drive the Israelis into the sea" rises to the level of being a declared enemy of Israel, then are you suggesting that the USA also be on that "Sampson Option" list? The last I checked we give HUGE amounts of money to Israels opponents. 40 mil to the pals just recently. Oh, yeah, Israel gives them money too, are they to be on the list as well?

186 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:16:56am

ploome,

That is sick. Talk about being truly sub-human.

187 Engineer  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:27:07am

#183 Geepers

I know, I know. I have aswered Bigel when Reganite wasn't around for the same reason.

I went to bed with this going on and then when I got up, it was STILL going on and I just got fed up.

188 Short Fat Corporal  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:31:37am

#185 Geepers

There is enough of an element of similarity to justify IMO.
1- An enemy is an enemy (and again, we are speaking of the governments here, even tho it's the civvies that will be affected. I don't see why Israel would need to declare war openly on the EU, or vice-versa, when certain EU countrys are currently acting to weaken Israels security position.
A quietly spoken word thru dip channels would get the hint across; think of all the Mafia movies with the subtle intimidation scenes.
2- I would certainly NOT advocate this in any case other then the complete destruction of Israel ( not even if a whole Is. city was torched) in which Israel felt that the "EU" played enough of part in. If Israel fell now, would these country's actions so far make them a target? I don't know, but we are not talking about a tac in Bonn for a bus bombing.
3- You hit the nail on the head re: the money. 40 mil for the palibombers, 2 bil on the egyptians, etc. AHHH. But I think that as the WOT starts making progress, we will be able to stop these payments, most of this money is bribery to not attack Israel anyway. Which brings up a counter-point; we are providing political cover for the Israelis. Hell, we trump the Euros in this arena.
4- I will apologise to those on the board for discussing burning them up. It's bad enuff they have to worry about the jihadis too (as we all do). But maybe a little BACK OFF is what the Israelis need to give the EU.

189 Short Fat Corporal  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:33:49am

4- "those on the board FROM EUROPE"

sorry, erased too much in preview

190 Neo_Con  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:35:38am

Beate Winkler, EUMC director, told the paper the report was shelved because of problems with time scales but also due to the overly complicated definition of anti-Semitism.

Translated:

We're no longer clear on what "anti-semitism" is because, as the arabs have been telling us, they too are "semites", therefore how can arab crimes against jews be "anti-semitic"?

191 Short Fat Corporal  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:35:51am

Geepers and Engineer

This is a pretty sick subject. I'm glad I'm not the one making the decisions. I'll give Geepers the last word on it, and give it a rest

192 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:38:54am

Engineer (#187),

I went to bed with this going on and then when I got up, it was STILL going on and I just got fed up.

Welcome to LGF. ;-)

193 Engineer  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:39:29am

Short Fat Corporal (#181), and Geepers (#185)

As I have told Bigel, Israel does not have the ability to destroy Europe, But France does have the ability to destroy Israel.

Israel's nuclear weapons

France's nuclear weapons

We really don't want France to think that Israel might target them. France has many more nuclear weapons of far more yield with much better delivery systems. I don’t want to see them target Israel with them, but if people started taking Bigel seriously, that might just happen.

By target, I mean to have a policy in place and targets chosen

194 Short Fat Corporal  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:49:51am

#193 Engineer

OK then, I'll give you the last word on the subject then...

... well...

...maybe just one last thing. Israel probably doesn't have to worry about France's nukes coz they're probably aimed at New York and certain grape cultivation areas in CA anyway.

Trust me to look at the bright side of things!

195 zaza  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:51:47am

Ah poor Muslim communities, oppressed and ill-treatead, and subject to such Islamophobia! It's only fairs the reports should come out only about that, no?

Yuck...

Thanks Charles for pointing out this article. I hadn't heard about this yet.

---

Ah... people who like sausage and trust polls should never see how they're done.

Eh...

Mr Pol - I would basically agree there with the gist of what you're saying. Aside from the comparison with nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia not being literal in most other ways (no one is deported or tortured etc. there is no literal dictatorship, so, easy with the bombastic metaphors there...), it does apply in the specifics in respect to the EU system and their censorship and propaganda methods.

However. What you say about most people not caring and just wanting to keep their jobs and ordinary life and daily concerns etc. etc. I wouldn't certainly compare that kind of "indifference" to the situation of people living under ruthless nazi or communist dictatorships, but I get your point. I just would like to know what conclusions it brings.

To be honest at least where I live there is an increasing focus and discussion of the whole issue but, whether most people care or not, the point is always, what is possible to do. I read recently about the owner of a mosque in Italy where several terrorist suspects have been arrested lately. The place for the mosque was rented twenty years ago to an Arab business. Then they turned it into a cultural centre. Then a mosque. The owners have given notice of eviction two years ago. The occupants, the mosque leaders, are still there. The owners say they received threats too. I don't know the full story but that's one instance. There have been many similar complaints and most people are well aware of such things. The papers have also denounced how most mosques are controlled by Muslim Brotherhood fronts. Now. Objectively, no nation - Europe, US, Asia, whatever - can start closing mosques. The police should have definitely done a lot more there to prevent infiltration of terrorists etc. but in the end, it's back to the same question: where do you draw the line, when the main leaders of Islamic communities are ALL extremists, what do you do?

Oh, by the way, in relation to your post #90:

No reliable newspapers, no reliable news networks, no reliable news agencies, systematic censorship of anything that does not strictly follow the EU guidelines, including assassination by gov't officials of anybody who manages to be heard before running a smear campaign against them... How are most Europeans supposed to know, when they have less access to information than North Koreans?

Keep in mind one thing. Not all of Europe is France. Usually it's the likes of Chirac and the French grandeur defenders making that confusion...

Information and discussion is more varied in other places, from what I can tell.

And in any case, back again to the question above.

Related to another question - show me one area in the world where the same crap is not happening, and/or where it is being dealt with more efficiently (internally)?

Because genuinely I have no idea how the infiltration of Islamists can be avoided except by the method say, Fortyun suggested, and which is clearly not practicable anywhere.

So...?

196 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:57:36am

Short Fat Corporal (#191),

This is a pretty sick subject.

Yes it is. And that is one of the main reasons I don't agree with the cavalier "nuke them all" threats. It's a deadly serious issue, with world altering implications and the results of any nuclear exchange are terrifying and horrific to think about.

And just in general, we (everyone here at LGF) are debating issues, sometimes people take personally the disagreements about their arguments. And just to be clear, that's not what I think you're doing, I just like to point that out some times. We can talk and argue all we want, but we don't make policy so its all just hot air in the grand scheme of things.

197 Neo_Con  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:57:36am

177 Engineer 11/22/2003 05:04AM PST

Is this stillgoing on? Look folks, Bigel is consumed by his hatred of Europe.

And why shouldn't he be? Europeans can't even agree on what "anti-semitism" is.

But we're not supposed to hold that against them because they're "highminded," enlightened, and oh so cultured? Don't be fooled by their sophistication.

The Germans of the early 20th century were also hyper-sophisticated. They were the cultural and intellectual elite of the world--they produced some of the world's greatest minds. But it was that same cultural elite that gave Hitler his pulpit.

Similarly, I'm not impressed by today's secular Europe, which has produced nothing but the worst kind of false humanism and moral relativism.

This report, which states in their own words that modern Europe no longer even has the moral compass to make a simple moral determination because they are so wrapped up in the false morality of "equivalency" is proof that Bigel's passion is not misplaced, though his rhetoric may be.

Something is SERIOUSLY wrong on that side of the pond, and we can't see it because once again Europe passes off their moral bankruptcy as "enlightenment", just as the 20th Century Germans did.

Bigel's rhetoric is inflammatory, but we should all be as outraged as he is by what we hear coming out of Europe.

198 Thom  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:58:08am

#190 Neo_Con

The solution is simple:

Stop using "anti-Semitism" and adopt "Jew-hatred".

I don't see how muslims/arabs can possibly co-opt that term.

Now, if that practice were adopted, the report could be renamed "On Jew-Hatred in the EU"; there's no need to shelve it because of the (manufactured) complexities of the definition of "anti-Semitism"; and no one would even think of including muslims/arabs in a report dedicated to the phenomenon of people who act on their hatred of Jews.

Simple!

199 Zack  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:00:52am

"Shhh! The canary isn't dead. It's just sleeping."

200 Macula  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:01:36am

regarding #169 , #183, #187 (zulubaby, Geepers, Engineer)

If those amongst us who disagree with the most extreme viewpoints expressed on LGF do not stand up and argue against them forcefully, then every one of us will be tarred with the same bigelted brush.

201 must. get. back. to... thread. (john)  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:02:27am
"There is a trend towards Muslim anti-semitism, while on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice," said one person familiar with the report. "Merely saying the perpetrators are French, Belgian or Dutch does no justice to the full picture

'on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice'

Gee.

Ya think?

Bigel & Reganite: Been there. Done that.

202 Neo_Con  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:09:12am

198 Thom 11/22/2003 07:58AM PST

The solution is simple

Yes, the solution would be simple. I agree with you.

Then why have the hyper-sophisticated Europeans not published their report with that simple disclaimer? All it would require is one simple paragraph. Is that so difficult? complicated? What is causing the Europeans to equivocate like this? Are they new to jew-hatred that they don't recognize it when they see it?

What the hell is going on here???

203 Macula  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:11:11am

And another thing...

The EU is not Europe and they do not speak for all Europeans!

The EU is an undemocratic organisation that arrogantly presumes to speak for the people of Europe.
The EU is corrupt and rotten to the core and will (hopefully) fail within the next few years.

Are Michael Moore, Chomsky et al America?
Please people, stop bashing the Europeans but by all means continue to bash the EU.

204 Short Fat Corporal  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:18:43am

196 Geepers

I wasn't being cavalier about what I thought bigel was suggesting. I did want to bring up the very brutal logic of deterrence. Now whether he is being reckless or hot-headed about it or not, I'll let people make up their own minds

After all, basically either way you cut it we are talking about the murder of civilians, or the threat of murdering civvies in the pursuit of policy. That was/is the backbone of MAD. The jihadis do it a little differently; there is no threat - there is just murder until the policy they want to establish (sharia) is established.

Going back to bigel's very intense feelings for the Euro's, I think a lot of American's probably have more of a contempt for the French and Germans then vice-versa. Neo-Con sums up very neatly in #197 what a lot of us believe. The anti-semitism going on over there is not helping the Euro image out all. Throw in a sense of betrayal, and I think a lot of us just shudder when we hear "European allies". That is really not fair to the (especially New Euro) countries that did honor the relationship we have had, but I think that Anti-Europeanism is the gut reaction.

I am starting to meander here a little more off-topic with each sentence, so I will finish up my work here, and get some sleep. And I was never personally offended, either. Like it was said, a sick subject.

205 Thom  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:18:55am

#202 Neo_Con

Then why have the hyper-sophisticated Europeans not published their report with that simple disclaimer? All it would require is one simple paragraph. Is that so difficult? complicated? What is causing the Europeans to equivocate like this? Are they new to jew-hatred that they don't recognize it when they see it?

What the hell is going on here???

The study was conducted and the powers-that-be were embarrassed by the findings. Clearly.

My simplistic, bigelesque answer is that they're a bunch of vicious anti-Semites anxious to:

1) Not lend any support or credence to those of us who worry about the alarming upswing in European anti-Semitism;
2) Not upset muslims by pointing out that they're largely to blame; and that non-muslims are guilty of sins of omission (as Mr Pol puts it).

Good dhimmis don't do dat sorta thang.

206 Promethea  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:47:10am

#203 Macula . . .

Thanks for pointing out that the EU is not "Europe." Just as 9-11 got me to take a serious look at Islam (the so-called religion of peace), so did the vote against the invasion of Iraq get me to look at the EU.

I remember how thrilled I was when the "Letter of Eight" (?) came out (that's the term I remember). Suddenly I began to see that the EU was an organization like the UN but with more power. Before that time, I had thought that it was a benign institution that would bring harmony to Europe and make it economically stronger, like the US.

Talk about a wake-up call!

Anyway, I am now quite interested in the EU and like to hear what Europeans think about it.

207 Promethea  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:48:53am

Also, I have found the anti-Israel, pro-PLO support by the EU absolutely despicable.

The "Jenin Massacre" hoo-hah opened my eyes to a lot of ugly things.

208 zaza  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:56:52am

197 Neo_con: were you the same traditionalist ubercatholic "Neo_con" who some time ago was defending Gibson's Passion film stunt and insulting everyone who had a problem with his PR tactics, with a few specific digs directed at Jews if I don't recall wrong? If it wasn't you, apologies for the confusion. But if was, well, how very interesting you should lecture everyone here about definitions of anti-semitism...

209 Dom  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 7:17:18am

The EU is corrupt but could yet have it's demons exorcised, which might not happen soon, so Bigel isn't really wrong in thinking there might have to be a very firm confrontation. The EU clearly knows what a mire of deceit it meets in and is split on reforming, with many taking an entrenched stance on Israel. There simply can be no doubt that an overlap of current developments and conspiracy theory is most useful to their paymasters and a lot of them believe Israel is 'a problem' anyway, or try to. However I am very concerned about Israel taking this role. It is because the US has too many allies to be 100% trustworthy in such an event that Israel might have to. The Arab world will not clean up before the EU. So anyway, American pressure on the EU would be a far better thing than Israeli pressure. As for the suggestion that the EU is a massive den of antisemites, what's new? Many aren't, and the EU hasn't suffered the kind of preWWII inflation or, for most, recent defeats, that characterised proto-Nazi Germany. The good forces within the EU (ie those that are not spoiling to fight America and fear Islamofascists), are not really most empowered. Britain should forge some very strong EU ALLIANCES AGAINST FRANCE AND GERMANY and not with them. Never mind one poxy letter.

And frankly, the thing is, even if the EU were that fully antisemitic, and if my family and friends all left, I would still want to avoid a standoff between them and Israel. So that has to be the language for Israel's part until the dirt that bigel is expecting shows up. The EU has stronger diplomacy by numbers, than America or Russia, and there may well be a joint interest in a friendly but instructive investigation into factors which affect EU foreign policy and management.

210 zaza  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 7:20:46am

#163 K.

17% is not "most people"

Indeed, but that doesn't always seem to be the case - the maths can become rather blurry when it's about any European country.

211 Neo_Con  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 7:21:17am

208 zaza 11/22/2003 08:56AM PST

197 Neo_con: were you the same traditionalist ubercatholic "Neo_con" who some time ago was defending Gibson's Passion film stunt and insulting everyone who had a problem with his PR tactics, with a few specific digs directed at Jews if I don't recall wrong?

Yes, that was me. Though I'm not catholic, let alone an "ubercatholic". And the rest of your characterization is equally off the mark. Especially the one about insulting people. I don't generally insult people, but I do challenge their ideas. Although I might insult someone if they are a total ass, and them move on.

212 Henry S.  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 7:45:47am

#193 Engineer

Thanks for the links. I live in the UK and I am regularly subjected to all shades of anti-Semitism. I think Europe is a lost cause and I encourage all Jews who are able to build a life elsewhere to leave the continent ASAP. In the 9 years I have lived here, I have never been across the channel and I would not spend a penny in France. I boycott French goods. I hate the French with a passion. But...

the talk about nuking France is completely irresponsible. Israel cannot destroy France and has diddly-squat to gain by leaking that France is being targeted. It would only ensure that Israel is targeted by France -- a losing proposition as demonstrated by your links -- and invite further hostility from the rest of Europe. Bigel has a Masada complex; let's just be thankful that he is not in the Foreign Ministry.

213 zulubaby  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 7:49:36am

Neo_Con (#197)

Bigel's rhetoric is inflammatory

Agreed.

but we should all be as outraged as he is by what we hear coming out of Europe.

I'll only speak for myself, but I am outraged. Unfortunately the discussion gets lost somewhere in the tit-for-tat bickering.

214 zaza  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 8:00:42am

#211 Neo_con: thanks. I don't want to mischaracterise, sorry, I was being sarcastic about your post, because I do remember that previous discussion, and though I genuinely don't remember the exact words exchanged there, I recall a bit of general bafflement (to be euphemistic) at your comments. I was baffled myself.

I have no intentiont to rehash all that, mind you, but it just came to my mind when reading your comment. I do think it's a bit rich coming from you, that's all.

215 zulubaby  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 8:02:49am

Geepers (#183)

Ranbutan is a vicious anti-Semite who posted lies as though they were facts. And don't make out as though I was the only one that used to argue with Ranbutan, you know that is not even close to the truth.

216 Neo_Con  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 8:08:22am

214 zaza 11/22/2003 10:00AM PST

I have no intentiont to rehash all that, mind you, but it just came to my mind when reading your comment. I do think it's a bit rich coming from you, that's all.

Not rich at all. It shows, and I think my track record confirms this, that supporting Mel Gibson doesn't make somebody an uber catholic or anti-semitic.

But I am a bit more sensitive to fears of anti-semitism than I was before that unfortunate exchange.

217 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 8:46:14am

zulubaby: yes, you are right, the discussion gets lost.

But, that should be kept in mind first of all by some who seem more interested in launching those continental tirades rather than in the items themselves.

...now what was the discussion about? :)

218 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 8:54:05am

#216 Neo_con: I never implied "supporting so and so" turns anyone into an antisemite, doh. I never even said you were. I just said, I do remember you expressed yourself in a way that, in my humble opinion, makes it a bit rich for you to lecture everyone on the topic.

But I am a bit more sensitive to fears of anti-semitism than I was before that unfortunate exchange.

Good for you.

219 zulubaby  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 9:06:09am

zaza (#217)

I agree that the "nuke 'em all" posts (of all and every variety, actually) have no value, but at this point I'm so sick of the bickering that I don't even care anymore about who is right and who is wrong, I just want it to stop. It's derailed too many threads already.

By the way, did you see this?

Italians join Jews in Sabbath services across country

:-)

220 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 9:18:14am

- ploome: (re: the Gaddafi link) bah, I just can't give credit to anything he'd say, even if he said that water is liquid.

"... due to my responsibility to the stability of the world in the first place and peace in the Mediterranean".

He's got to be kidding. And he'd better not even mention "Lybian coast" and "responsibility" in the same sentence. He's got the blood of hundreds of people on his hands there.

221 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 9:28:01am

#219 zulubaby: yes, I saw that :-)

Funny cos the idea was first suggested last week on tv by Gad Lerner, this Jewish Italian tv presenter I'd already mentioned, while he was presenting a debate about antisemitism and terrorism, with Rutelli and others from the left, and at first, they all went "ahem hmm" lol... no well, but it took five or seven seconds for them to reply. Tsk... cowards... ;) Lerner also asked the rabbi on tv if it was ok, and got the seal of approval.

He had a really nice idea there.

I sure hope it is not just a one-time gesture, but is followed by a more serious stance esp. from the left. They should start figthing antisemitism by looking at how their media portray Israel and all that. It would be nice to have a decent, responsible left wing for once in Italy. Just for once...

222 hans ze beeman  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 9:45:50am

#210: zaza

Indeed, but that doesn't always seem to be the case - the maths can become rather blurry when it's about any European country.

That's an interesting point. I've read somewhere that latent anti-Semitism is at 20% on average all over Europe, and that's not all of the people either, it appears... but then, all European polls are, as we know, controlled by the European Islamofascist Control Panel (EICP)...

I agree with you, btw, that the discussion culture is not everywhere the same as it is in France. From my experience, it appears at least a bit better here, though the media are even more infested with PCness than the US media, who have Fox, National Review and Weekly Standard. Even the Conservative media here are more like CNN than Fox, though it's really interesting to note - no kidding (don't know if I posted that before) - that der Spiegel recently fisked Michael Moore, and other left-wing papers did the same! I couldn't believe my eyes...

223 zulubaby  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 9:46:21am

zaza (#221)

Reading that was heartwarming, even if it is just a one-off thing. Needless to say I would prefer that such support were serious and long-standing but it's a comfort to know that there were people who cared enough to make the effort to show their support.

It would be nice to have a decent, responsible left wing for once in Italy. Just for once...

It would be nice to have a decent, responsible left wing anywhere! ;-)

224 Julia the Horrible  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 10:01:50am

*munching on fried oysters*

Hey - did y'all finally figure out who is an antisemite and who isn't?

Are we agreed that polling for the purpose of discovering who hates whom is a really stoopid idea? (Wasn't that what the original research was all about?)

Academics with ten fingers up their assholes and five figure grants to study this shit are totally useless. It doesnt take a underpaid librarian to figure that one out.

What we need is more people elucidating the historical perspective to our present and upcoming generations on how fucked up it is to allow any of the major religions of the world to dictate policy in government.

I dont know why anyone hasnt thought of that, but of course, I am not an academic with my head up my ass in theories. I am not an edumacator in a union who pays me to have three months off every year. I am just a librarian who sees the illiterate and uneducated come to me shyly for answers to questions they dont even know how to formulate.

I see the tip of the iceberg. Pity, no one is watching.

Shalom.

225 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 10:06:21am

PS - zulubaby: I've posted a note about it, guess who boycotted the initiative:

"We decided not to join the initiative - said the UCOII (Union of Islamic Communities and Organisations in Italy) secretary Hamza Piccardo - because we think our visit to the synagogue in Rome would be a political gesture which at this time would be out of place. We express solidarity for the victims of Instanbul, and our president Nour Dachan called the president of Jewish communities in Italy, Amos Luzzato, to express our solidarity. But we remain firmly against the politics of the Sharon government. How could we enter the synagogue in Rome where we would be greeted by chief rabbi Di Segni, who is a member of Likud?"
226 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 10:26:51am

#223 zulubaby: indeed, and also I think more would have turned out if it had been planned longer than a week in advance, but then, the idea was precisely to have a small, "intimate" thing, not a big manifestation, but significant all the same...


It would be nice to have a decent, responsible left wing anywhere! ;-)

Eh I guess so... :-)

I want Tony Blair!! It's not fair the Brits have him all to themselves. It's discriminating, it is...

#222 hans: wow, perhaps Der Spiegel is sussing out that pursuing one line relentlessly is not very clever market-wise? ;)

Or perhaps, seriously, even there there is a bit of a wake-up effect after recent terrorist attacks.

I have to say that even from very superficial impressions from outside, I did get the idea of there being some wider variety of positions in German media. And honestly I couldn't think of two more different countries than France and Germany. And I don't even hate or dislike France as such really, but France has its own unique "style" of going down the antiamerican, antisemitic path. Very common, but the way they do it, is so typically French!

- Europe: united by French-bashing ;-)

227 hans ze beeman  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 10:57:52am

#226: zaza - incompatible with fatwas

Hey, I want a Blair too! The blairitis is spreading, let's just clone him! Imagine - the Italian Blair, tanned skin, stylish suit, and the German one - paler, smoking cigars, and having not four kids but four (past) wifes... but united in the WoT! /fantasy world

I have to say that even from very superficial impressions from outside, I did get the idea of there being some wider variety of positions in German media

Well, Ralph Peters - RALPH FRIGGIN PETERS - called the FAZ one of the few serious papers in Europe (he occasionally writes for the FAZ)...

And honestly I couldn't think of two more different countries than France and Germany.

You have a point there...

228 zulubaby  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 11:13:42am

zaza (#225)

Unsurprising, of course, but then I really expect very little compassion or human decency from the Islamists, especially when it comes to Jews. It goes both ways though -- I don't pretend to love these people that hate me and mine because we were born Jews. I don't care about it even, the Italian people who chose to show their support for the Jews are noted and appreciated. The UCOII chose to use it as an opportunity to further their poisonous political and cultish agenda. What they don't seem to realize it that it is a reflection on them and their own hideousness, nobody else's. Muslims were killed and injured too. I wonder if they even care about them. In fact, I wonder if they're capable of any emotion beside hatred, anger and jealousy.

I want Tony Blair!! It's not fair the Brits have him all to themselves. It's discriminating, it is...

So funny. One of my closest friends lives in London and hates Tony Blair. I always tease her about it because when I ask her why she hates him, she says the same thing every time: "I don't know, I just do". That's a reason? LOL.

hans ze beeman, the Italian Blair sounds magnificent! :-)

229 Mr Pol  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 12:39:17pm

#210 zaza

I wrote a long answer, then lost it... and I don't feel like rewriting it. So let's stick to the important points:

1. My comparison of today's Europeans indifference to Germans indifference in 1933 is fair. In 1933 the Nazis had not yet established their total control over Germany. They were still a minority party, heading a coalition, and while Hitler was chancellor, there were only two Nazi ministers in the government. Yes, I am implying that the Eurocrats who want to "rule Europe" are no better than the Nazis.

2. My conclusion is that most people, in all places and all history, have been indifferent to evil as long as they were not, personally, a target. I do not blame them for being evil - I blame them for being indifferent.

3. As long as the law does not apply to Muslims, there is no way out. Reading from you that 'mosques cannot be closed' was a shock.

4. The only way is to open the borders to whatever legal immigration the EU needs (that's how you fight illegal immigration) and to ensure the law applies to Muslims, too.

5. Freedom of the press in Europe? "Delusions are functional".

230 Mr Pol  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 12:43:57pm

#222 hans ze beeman

I've read somewhere that latent anti-Semitism is at 20% on average all over Europe

I hope that figure is wrong. 80% indifferent and 20% antisemite? *Shudder*

231 hans ze beeman  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 12:59:29pm

#230: Mr Pol

Indifference was not the topic of the poll. You're pushing something into it.

232 Mr Pol  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 1:07:09pm

#231 hans ze beeman

It's a reference to previous posts in the thread. IMO most Europeans (80%) are too busy living their lifes to care about anything that doesn't directly touch them.

233 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 1:47:39pm

The Europeans have a CHOICE and have had all this time. They KNOW who they are dealing with-make no mistake about that. They KNOW what it could lead to. What are they doing in this issue? They are supporting the PA in almost every way possible that counts. They are supporting Islam UNTIL Islam has Nukes of their own. Therefore THEY need to take responsibility for their actions. If they continue to make it possible for the Islamists everywhere to Target Israel and Jews (across the World now--thats Jews sitting in Shul in Turkey or NY or DC [and thats ME]) then announced or unannounced Europe is at War once again with Jews.

Just like America, Israel has a right to say..THIS TIME..NO! This time...STOP! If ya don't stop then WE will have to DO SOMETHING about it. This time, if WE are to be obliterated by Islamists with your help..you will accompany us. WE are people just like you. ITS most definitely analogous to MAD.

We are not going to make the same mistake again. Just cause it is set up different, has a longer and slower time table doesn't mean the aims aren't the same. Remember, naive German Jews didn't realize the extent of the Hatred until it was too late. We know better now.

Europe can stop all this IF it wants. Its up to THEM. Jews are finished with ASKING people IF they can survive. Thats all over now. IF YOU don't have to ask and plead for your survival, than neither do WE. OR are we so THE OTHER that some think we DO in fact have to ask others for permission to exist. Really now!

There was NO reason to allow this to go so far. Weave been yelling now for 20 years and again very little listening to what we had to say in private..Anti Israelism is really mostly Antisemitism. And is growing and growing all over the world thanks to embedded attitudes of too many in Europe and Islamic Anti Jew slander.

234 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 1:53:15pm

zulubaby (#215),

Excuse me?!

When did I say, or how did you read into my post #183 that I was suggesting, in any way, that you were the only one to argue with ranbutan???

My post was an attempt to explain a counter to Engineers "just scroll past him and don’t answer him" (even thought I mostly agreee with that ) suggestion about bigel's "nuke 'em all, they're all NAZI scum" posts.

If you'll recall I use to harp on you all the time about being drawn into ranbutan's BS as a waste of time, because his posts were so clearly and obviously beyond the pale, and you would still see people say "well I kinda agree" and I'm assuming you wanted people to know that he wasn't "kinda right."
You might also want to recall all the times I called ranbutan on his BS.

You might think reaganite is a bully for constantly calling bigel on his shit, that's up to you, but should we really just scroll past bigels posts if we disagree with them and give our tacit approval in our silence, or should we point out that he's wrong and tell him so?

235 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 2:00:02pm

Leah (#233),

This time, if WE are to be obliterated by Islamists with your help..you will accompany us.

Then I'm assuming that you believe the deaths of the 600,000 Jews living in France are acceptable collateral damage for your revenge?

236 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 2:13:11pm

Geepers: So sorry..in case you dont know WE arent going by --by all by ourselves now. Happened before..but not this time. The fruits of OUR brain (Einstein) set up the ability of the West to survive dedicated Communists in Russia bent on our destruction by instituting --MAD..Now the fruits of our brain just might be put to work to do the SAME with ISRAEL. IF Israel is eliminated..it will be on to the Jews around the world and NEXT on to the West and America.

***Its THEIR choice not ours!!! THEY can stop it IF they want. I dont know how else to say this. NOBODY is forcing intelligent Europeans to back muderous crazy Jew Hate imbued Islamists.

I heard Tom Metzger of WAR say Jews didnt have the BALLS to do whats necessary to SURVIVE. Laughing and sneering he said "Jews are too weak".. Ive got NEWS for that Nazi..We DO have the balls.

We wont like it, we hope we dont have to RESPOND to the murderous intentions..but this time..WE Survive. And its up to Jews to make sure that leaders in Israel are Israeli selected leaders...This is serious now.

Again..It NEVER had to get this far. It was always wrong and someone COULD HAVE said NO and meant it. Now we will have to take care of ourselves..Rubber has met the road.

237 Mr Pol  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 2:14:42pm

#235 Geepers

Then I'm assuming that you believe the deaths of the 600,000 Jews living in France are acceptable collateral damage for your revenge?

You seem to believe that the death of 6 million Jews in Israel is acceptable in order to ensure the dhimmitude of the remaining 400,000 Jews living in France...

Or do you believe Jews in the Diaspora are human shields against Israel? In that case, are you making aliyah soon, or are you a willing human shield?

238 reaganite  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 2:25:57pm

#237 Mr Pol

You seem to believe that the death of 6 million Jews in Israel is acceptable in order to ensure the dhimmitude of the remaining 400,000 Jews living in France...

Now come on, where in the world did you get this from? Geepers never said anything of the sort and you know it.

239 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 2:56:41pm

This whole notion of "who to nuke" and "why we should nuke them" and all the rest is getting patently absurd.

Until Israel even admits they have nuclear weapons the issue of how and when they should use them is moot. As are discussions about said use.

When Israel releases their nuclear deterrent strategy let me know and we'll debate the points of that strategy. Otherwise we're all just arguing about the length of a theoretical piece of string.

240 Mr Pol  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 2:59:01pm

#238 reaganite

That is one of the most irritating pieces of shit in the EU rhetoric: each time a Diaspora Jew gets hurt, it's Israel's fault, and proves that Israel should be 'restrained'. Geepers is reproducing that rhetoric. Israel should restrain itself for the sake of the French Jews? No. Fucking. Way.

241 zulubaby  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:00:32pm

Geepers (#234)

Excuse me?!

When did I say, or how did you read into my post #183 that I was suggesting, in any way, that you were the only one to argue with ranbutan???

You singled me out by name, did you not?

You might think reaganite is a bully for constantly calling bigel on his shit, that's up to you, but should we really just scroll past bigels posts if we disagree with them and give our tacit approval in our silence, or should we point out that he's wrong and tell him so?

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I'm tired of discussing bigel as though he were our collective problem child -- I got bored with the bickering long ago. Spare me the drama of "tacit approval in our silence". Just because I choose not bang my head on the bigel wall does not mean that I approve of nuking anybody.

242 reaganite  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:21:07pm

#240 Mr Pol
That is not what Geepers said, or meant. If,and I mean a big if, Israel goes down, do you really think they would nuke Europe, BTW killing the remaining Jews living there? Nuking France does nothing to protect Israel. I for one think much higher of Israelis to think that they'd nuke Europe to murder as many people as they can in a fit of impotent rage.

Should Israel kill their enemies? Absolutely. Should they kill millions of innocents to get the French government? I don't really have to answer that do I?

243 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:30:49pm

I suggest that FRANCE and the rest of Europe CHANGE and STOP funding, teaching and representing Islamists that promised Hitler that they would "finish the job" and get rid of the rest of the Jews. People mean what they say and say what they mean.

Its up to THEM , in Europe, not us. It was up to the Soviet Union..and after a while even they realized it was a No Win situation and even THEY have Stopped.


Whats good for the goose is good for the gandar. If it was OK for America and the West to MAKE SURE they werent obliterated in five seconds..then it is just as good for Israel. OR lets find out IF the world thinks we are the same as they are or NOT. Thats the bottom FUCKING line.

244 Henry S.  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 3:51:53pm

#243 Leah

Israel is a powerful nation -- 10-fold her size and population -- but she has neither the arsenal nor the financial resources to take on the entire world. And honestly, what is the point of discussing the Samson option? It may feel good to shout, "WE WON'T GO DOWN ALONE!", but if the worst happens (God forbid), 5 million Jews will still go. The rest is an exercise in mental masturbation.

Here's a much more constructive question:

Given her arsenal and financial resources, what can Israel do to ensure her survival? CLUE: it ain't targeting France.

There are many things I don't like about Sharon but one thing I'm certain of is that he knows the correct answer to the above question and will ensure that the appropriate action is taken at the appropriate time.

245 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:03:42pm

zulubaby (#241),

You singled me out by name, did you not?

Yes I did - but only as a single example of someone who would not let ridiculous and patently absurd posts go un-countered. Not as a suggestion that you were the only one countering them. You're reading WAY too much into that post.


And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, those were my sentiments, my apologies if it came of as otherwise.

Just because I choose not bang my head on the bigel wall does not mean that I approve of nuking anybody.

Nicely put, and I didn't mean to suggest or imply that "you" personally approved of nuking anyone. I get in trouble a lot for talking to someone, and making a point with a collective you being misinterpreted for a individual 'you'. I wish there were an obvious distinction between the two, without having to spell out that distinction.

And yes banging our collective heads against the bigel wall is giving us all headaches and putting a lot of people in a nasty mood. Something I'm not at all convinced isn't his intention. So that we can all wallow in his hatred right along with him. Misery loves company, from now on he can be miserable alone. I'm not going to make enemies out of friends by having my condemnation of his tactics be misconstrued as defense of European anti-Semitism.

246 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:06:55pm

Henry S..You couldnt be MORE wrong. Believe me. This is no exercise in "feeling better" anymore than it was in the US when we were in the Cold War. Maybe YOU weren't there when Jack Kennedy said STOP to Russia but I was...Its the same situation...Its only NOT the same when you hold attitudes that Jews are somehow NOT quite the same as you are and have less right to survive than YOU have. Incidental we aren't other peoples intellectual SERVANTS to save the lives and culture of OTHER people by the fruits of our brain to be told later that we may not use the same information to save OUR LIVES. You must be kidding.

The world had just better cut the crap about how it HATES Jews ..Most of the world is just USED to unloading on us, blaming us, and murdering us... and weave Fucking HAD IT.

Jews everywhere GET it. What you see in Europe now..can come right here. It doesn't take a whole lotta people to get the job done. Its aways a Minority that sets this off. The Minority in Germany started with 6? people or was it 4???

So in the light of what we are seeing ---We wont have it again..We will survive wether people want us to or not...just like YOU...WORD.


G-d Im sick and tired of this.

247 Geepers  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:30:46pm

Henry S. (#244),

Wow, nice post. Especially in light of how high emotions are running just now. Succinctly worded and illustrative of the reality of the situation Israel faces right now.

But unfortunately your impeccable reasoning has no value in the face of pure emotion.

248 Dom  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 4:48:11pm

Whether or not it is anybody's strategy, until that moment it is a worthy aside but not a counterargument to any reasoning and not a political masterplan or serious argument. What is better having raised the matter, is to make clear that the strength of whoever would attack Israel will not deter them from reasonable strategic means under pressure.

249 Henry S.  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:11:33pm

246 Leah

Chill; we're on the same team. I was around during the Cuban Missile Crisis and the two situations are not analogous. The US had a massive arsenal of nuclear weapons positioned on various platforms around the world and was dealing with a single adversary (the USSR) and a single proxy (Cuba). That's why the blockade and MAD worked. Israel does not have the same capabilities or reach and would lose in any confrontation with Europe. Besides, we have enough achievable targets in the ME.

Leah, you're right: to survive, we have to use our brains. That means choosing our battles carefully and engaging our enemies when and where we know we will win, not launching nuclear armageddon.

250 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:27:44pm

Henry..Look for me another time. I thought I was OVER IT already..but they are playing the Day Kennedy Got Shot. on MSNBC...and Im right back there REMEBERING all of it , including the TV coverage and very emotional AGAIN. So whatever comes out of my mouth tonight wont make any sense...Geeze.

While Im at it. It was a dark day..The only one like it was 9/11...I guess.

251 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:41:50pm

One other day..as bad. The night Jack came on TV and told the Russians..Turn those ships around or else..we blow you off the face of the earth. He didnt say it just that way..but thats just what message Jack was giving Kruschef. They went over the line INTO OUR region and that was too much. Remembering everything right now..

252 reaganite  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:43:45pm

#251 Leah

They went over the line INTO OUR region and that was too much. Remembering everything right now..

As if our Atlas missiles in Turkey weren't in their back yard?

253 Henry S.  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 5:58:52pm

#250 Leah

I know the feeling. Can hardly believe it was 40 years ago -- shite, "I'm getting older than my mother" (George Harrison). It sounds trite but America really did lose its innocence that day -- me too.

I'll catch up with you on a cheerier evening. G'night.

254 Henry S.  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:06:54pm

#247 Geepers

Thanks for the moral support. It's an emotional time for all of us. : ^ {

255 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 6:50:19pm

Henry...Me too...Everytime I think "thats..it...Im over it" I forget NOT to listen. If I do..Im right back there again. We DID loose our innocence. It really hasnt been the same since that day and that four days. Isnt it a shame the younger people never got to have exactly the feeling of hope and promise, all things in America possible, we had then. My gosh..it was so different then.

Henry..I saw him in person two times..and that makes it even worse. GORGEOUS..and Im not kidding. And he was the "bad boy" type everyone says he was. You could see it in his eyes...Just a "momzer"..in the best way. What can I say-- that he was young and vital--it even added to the loss to see that most stunning man murdered.

Not going into the politics...It was a day...day of days if you were old enough to really remember it.

Sorry you all..didnt mean to go so off topic.

256 Leah  Sat, Nov 22, 2003 7:01:35pm

Reganite: America WAS and is ALPHA and America is not interested in comparing what WE had WHERE or interested in making any kind of a balance out of the thing. Jack Kennedy was a COLD WARRIAR..and he WAS going to have Missiles in Turkey and he was NOT--NOT going to let the Russians come into OUR Shpere with those missles..PERIOD! Thats all she wrote.

Thats how Alpha societies and countries work. They intend to SURVIVE and they DO. And we would do it again..betcha. You just saw it in Iraq and Afganistan...and IF Syria looks like they may have crossed the line. whatever they consider the fault line is...you will see it there as well...you can count on it.

257 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 12:06:29am

#229 Mr Pol, I'll play devil's advocate:

1. Honestly, all uses of nazism as a term of comparison or metaphor tend to get a bit dodgy... it shouldn't be used as a metaphor. I think little of the EU plan and their methods but putting it *literally* on a plane with the nazis... well it's obvious why it sounds crap.

2. You choose to define as "indifference" everything that does not involve some political action? I don't want to counter your touch of elitism there with the equivalent opposite extreme, that of populism, but there's more than two or three attitudes. There is not just indifference OR activism. I personally have respect for people *anywhere in the world* who care about their jobs and families in the first place and do their duty in society, cos they are those who make the whole thing go round - it's those who fanatically abandon those daily concerns and duties to engage in some jihad (be their far left, far right, Islamists) who I have a problem with.

And again, comparing the attitude of ordinary people today with those during the rise of nazism and fascism is preposterous. MANY people supported Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin. They were NOT indifferent at all. They were not ignorant. They knew what they were embracing. Those were dictators who had overtly stated to all their evil plans and got mass approval and even fanatical enthusiasm. So I'd say it is a bit different.

3. Haha.. "a shock"? Please, don't be silly. It's a statement of fact. What's shocking about stating the obvious? Of course when a mosque has been found to be exclusively a front for terrorist activities it should be closed. That has happened too. But I'm referring to the fact that the extreme solutions - closing *all* mosques (that's what I said) and banning Muslim immigration as Fortuyin suggested (that's what I referred to when I mentioned him) - are not practicable, whether you or me or Peter or Mary or Abdullah like it or not.

It doesn't matter what you believe there. You have to see what is possible and what is not.

Agree on the law needing to be applied to Muslims, of course.

The only problem is when you have to deal with Muslim "institutions" since they are also a religion.

4. Speaking about the immigration situation here in Italy, there is already a lot of legal immigration and so the borders are very well open, and the way you fight illegal immigration is for instance not to give in to Mr Gaddafi's blackmail, and every time he sends one of those boats and then orders them sinked near the coast so the army are forced to rescue them, send Mr Gaddafi a reminder that he cannot fuck around like that. Maybe, they could also intercept those boats before they play the amazing Gaddafi-sinking-boat magic-trick. Maybe they could also intercept the criminal network organising the whole shenanigans. I'd personally like the Australian approach. In any case. Rest assured that those hundreds coming in that way are not people who didn't find a way in legally so have to resort to illegal means. That's the bullshit leftist idea. Reading that from you was a shock (ho ho). They are people recruited specifically by those criminal networks. They pay 3000 dollars each at least to get on those boats. If they wanted to come in legally, they would be able to - like in the US, they get a job, they get in. Simple. There is no other responsibility for illegal immigration trafficking than those who exploit it.

5. All of Europe is like France? "French grandeur is infectious". Clearly Chirac is not the only one affected by that syndrome, round your parts...

258 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 12:11:26am

PS - addition to point 4 - many of those arrested recently as terrorist suspects in Italy, and the friendly-with-bin-Laden and Bakri imam who got expelled for instance, are ALL legal immigrants. As are many of the leaders of the most dodgy Islamic groups. ALL the imams. All the preachers. Many of them already full citizens. Not to mention the secretary of UCOII is an old Italian convert.

So clearly the discriminating factor there is not even legal/illegal immigration.

259 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 12:33:05am

#228 zulubaby

The UCOII chose to use it as an opportunity to further their poisonous political and cultish agenda. What they don't seem to realize it that it is a reflection on them and their own hideousness, nobody else's. Muslims were killed and injured too. I wonder if they even care about them. In fact, I wonder if they're capable of any emotion beside hatred, anger and jealousy.

Exactly... very well said.

What's enraging is these people like the UCOII leaders are self-proclaimed spokesmen. The secretary of UCOII is an Italian who used to be active in far-left militant groups, close to terrorism and to the Red Brigades, in the sixties and seventies, then he converted to Islam.

People like him are the equivalent of mini-Arafats...

So funny. One of my closest friends lives in London and hates Tony Blair. I always tease her about it because when I ask her why she hates him, she says the same thing every time: "I don't know, I just do". That's a reason? LOL.

I know! I hear that too. The Brits are just too demanding ;)

#227 hans ze beeman

Hey, I want a Blair too! The blairitis is spreading, let's just clone him! Imagine - the Italian Blair, tanned skin, stylish suit, and the German one - paler, smoking cigars, and having not four kids but four (past) wifes... but united in the WoT! /fantasy world

ROTFL...

This could go on like the "final countdown" thread ;)

Re: German media - what about the Deutsche Welle? I get it via satellite (the English-speaking channel) and have sometimes watched it, and even their web site, it seems "serious" enough too.

-- Btw, more Google News sources on the suppressed report: [Link: www.eubusiness.com...]

I did read about it in the papers this morning. It made the front page on a couple of them too.

I just can't wait to hear the reaction of Mr EU Commission now, since he vowed sooo sincerely to fight anti-semitism...

260 Mr Pol  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 2:20:13am

#257 zaza

I'll play devil's advocate:

Thanks for the warning :-)

1. Honestly, all uses of nazism as a term of comparison or metaphor tend to get a bit dodgy... it shouldn't be used as a metaphor. I think little of the EU plan and their methods but putting it *literally* on a plane with the nazis... well it's obvious why it sounds crap.

Compare the draft E.U. 'constitution', the Soviet Union constitution and the 1930 NSDAP program. Then tell me the similarities are not frightening.

2. You choose to define as "indifference" everything that does not involve some political action? I don't want to counter your touch of elitism there with the equivalent opposite extreme, that of populism, but there's more than two or three attitudes. There is not just indifference OR activism. I personally have respect for people *anywhere in the world* who care about their jobs and families in the first place and do their duty in society, cos they are those who make the whole thing go round - it's those who fanatically abandon those daily concerns and duties to engage in some jihad (be their far left, far right, Islamists) who I have a problem with.

The 'indifference' part came in as a defence of the common European. S/he is not anti-Semitic nor anti-Zionist nor anti-anything. S/he has a limited amount of free time and choses not to use it on issues s/he has no direct interest in. I know nothing about fox hunting and I'm not interested in learning. For the 300,000 people who demonstrated in London against fox hunting, I'm indifferent to the issue they are interested in. Do you think the anti-fox-hunting people are elitists, or is that only for me?

And again, comparing the attitude of ordinary people today with those during the rise of nazism and fascism is preposterous. MANY people supported Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin. They were NOT indifferent at all. They were not ignorant. They knew what they were embracing. Those were dictators who had overtly stated to all their evil plans and got mass approval and even fanatical enthusiasm. So I'd say it is a bit different.

Many Europeans today support the Islamonazis. They know what they're doing. They are not indifferent at all, nor are they ignorant, they know what they are embracing. The Islamonazis have stated all of their evil plans and got mass approval and even fanatical enthusiasm.

That does not mean all Europeans support the Islamonazis, nor does it mean that all Europeans deserve to be nuked.

But it's nice to see you agree with bigel :-)

3. Haha.. "a shock"? Please, don't be silly. It's a statement of fact. What's shocking about stating the obvious?

The shocking part is, you seem to find this situation acceptable.

Of course when a mosque has been found to be exclusively a front for terrorist activities it should be closed. That has happened too. But I'm referring to the fact that the extreme solutions - closing *all* mosques (that's what I said) and banning Muslim immigration as Fortuyin suggested (that's what I referred to when I mentioned him) - are not practicable, whether you or me or Peter or Mary or Abdullah like it or not.

Why is it more of a problem to close all mosques (and no, you didn't say all - you said 'close mosques') than to close down all Hubbardites? Why should Islam be immune from the law? Nobody suggested to check if there was more to Scientology than a scam. It didn't have to be exclusively a scam to be closed down as a scam. Why should Islam be any different? Or do you also think that pedophile Catholic priests should not be kicked out of the Catholic Church because, after all, they are not exclusively pedophiles?

It doesn't matter what you believe there. You have to see what is possible and what is not.

If you start by stating that fighting back is impossible, I guess surrender is your only option. Do you eat cheese, too? :-)

Agree on the law needing to be applied to Muslims, of course.

Funny. You agree that it needs to be applied, but you state that applying it equally is 'not practicable'.

The only problem is when you have to deal with Muslim "institutions" since they are also a religion.

So? What's the difference between Muslims and Elronists?

4. Speaking about the immigration situation here in Italy [...]

Short version - by signing Shengen, Italy abandoned control of its border and of its immigration policy. In particular, Italy, just like all other Shengen signatories, lost the option to choose from where it wanted to accept immigration.

"Get a job, then come over" is not open legal immigration. It's closed borders. If you want to see an example of what is open legal immigration, check Australia. Note that open does not mean uncontrolled.

5. All of Europe is like France? "French grandeur is infectious". Clearly Chirac is not the only one affected by that syndrome, round your parts...

Nice insult. But you still live in a country where Il Male was the last satirical newspaper with an editorial staff - and was closed down for 'insulting the Pope'. I guess you don't remember that "Adesso dimmi se è latte" that greeted John Paul I death. Or maybe you found the closedown justified.

---
Note to US readers: Il Male (The Evil) was an Italian satirical and political newspaper. It has the honor of being the most censored paper ever - more than 90% of its issues were seized and destroyed by the Italian gov't. Il Male was a must-read for anybody interested in Church politics, their sources were unbelievable... so much so that Israel's Embassy in Rome bought two every week and sent one to Tel Aviv's King Saul Blvd. It is rumored that the Vatican has the only other complete collection.

Il Male was closed down, after a three-years trial, officially for publishing an offensive cartoon intended to mock John Paul I statements that G-d should be perceived as a loving mother rather than a stern father, on the day John Paul I died. Imagine John Paul I on his knees in front of G-d, with G-d's hands on the back of the Pope's head, and G-d saying, "Now you tell me if this is milk." Do I need to say that this particular issue was seized and destroyed, too?

261 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 4:52:26am

Mr Pol: you're welcome about the warning, but apparently you did not really pay attention to it...

The 'indifference' part came in as a defence of the common European. S/he is not anti-Semitic nor anti-Zionist nor anti-anything. S/he has a limited amount of free time and choses not to use it on issues s/he has no direct interest in. I know nothing about fox hunting and I'm not interested in learning. For the 300,000 people who demonstrated in London against fox hunting, I'm indifferent to the issue they are interested in. Do you think the anti-fox-hunting people are elitists, or is that only for me?

First - see above.

Second - What I just wanted to know from you, is, what is the practical conclusion you draw from your observations on indifference.

Third - Personally I could not care less about discussing in a pattern of defense vs. condemnation. How can you defend/condemn an entire continent in one block - it's equally absurd. It just strikes me that saying that most people (only in Europe?) most of the time care about their jobs and direct interests instead of (insert alternative) is stating an obvious fact of life for most people indeed. But it's also a generalisation, so I pointed out there's not just activism OR indifference.

But it's nice to see you agree with bigel :-)

Yeah, right, heh... It's nice to see you do share some of his debating tactics :-)

As in here:

The shocking part is, you seem to find this situation acceptable.

And pray tell, where would I have said that?

Agree on the law needing to be applied to Muslims, of course.

Funny. You agree that it needs to be applied, but you state that applying it equally is 'not practicable'.

Nothing funny or contradictory at all - what I said is "not practicable" amounts to a complete total ban on Islam - total closing of ALL mosques (yes, I did mean that - "close mosques" as in "all", doh - sorry for not making it clearer earlier, but I already told you that is what I meant in the previous post!), even those not investigated for terrorist links or where no one has ever found terrorist suspects, and total closing of Muslim immigration (such as Pim Fortuyn suggested).

Hope I don't have to rewrite that a third time for it to be clearer.

And I specifically said: that total ban is not practicable, whether you or I or anyone else like it or not.

So I'm not giving my opinion on what ideally blah blah. I'm saying what I think is the most non-shocking obvious statement of fact in the world, ie. that no country would find it practicable to implement a radical plan such as Pim Fortuyin suggested.

Now, I may be missing something, but I didn't hear you saying you think that total ban is practicable either.

So I don't understand your shock - unless you confused my words for "nothing is practicable", which is not what I said, or implied, at all.

Why is it more of a problem to close all mosques (and no, you didn't say all - you said 'close mosques') than to close down all Hubbardites? Why should Islam be immune from the law? Nobody suggested to check if there was more to Scientology than a scam. It didn't have to be exclusively a scam to be closed down as a scam. Why should Islam be any different? Or do you also think that pedophile Catholic priests should not be kicked out of the Catholic Church because, after all, they are not exclusively pedophiles?

Ah, what a cocktail you make there. As if you could draw that kind of paralles...

First - Scientology has not been banned or closed down anywhere. Scams have been investigated and prosecuted where they occurred, but the Church itself is officially in place everywhere.

Second - of course priests guilty of crimes should be kicked out, duh - but point is, that doesn't destroy the Church itself.

Whereas, if you had to kick out all the imams who preach Jihad (not those involved in terrorism - this is perhaps where you got confused), you'd be left with very few or none, cos Jihad is in their holy book... And Islam is not reformed, modern, or compatible with secular institutions like any other Church of any kind is.

File that under "obvious statement of fact" too.

Third - I did not use words as "should", I did not say what I personally *believe* *should* be done *ideally*.

All I said is, when you have ALL Islamic leaders and imams being extremists - again: not terrorists, not suspects, but preaching extremist things, I'm talking of "mere" verbal incitement here, not direct funding of terrorism or related activities - then, to be completely and totally sure you prevent that kind of incitement at all, in the slightest, in any and every form, you'd have to take the Fortuyn route, ie. close down all of the mosques, ban Islam altogether, and that is not doable, whether we like it or not.

Which doesn't mean there's nothing in between that can be done, for gosh's sake. As if I ever said anything of the sort...

If you start by stating that fighting back is impossible, I guess surrender is your only option. Do you eat cheese, too? :-)

1. Yes, I eat cheese, delicious French cheese too :-)

2. No, I never said "fighting back is impossible" .

I merely pointed out the real radical way of ensuring no Jihad is being preached is not doable... Sorry for repetition, I though it was clear first time round but clearly it wasn't..

None of what I wrote and meant is equal to saying "nothing is doable", Mr Pol.

What is it, straw men festival today? :-)

The only problem is when you have to deal with Muslim "institutions" since they are also a religion.

So? What's the difference between Muslims and Elronists?

And who are Elronists?

Look, you don't have to ask that "so?" question to me. I'm not defending or condemning or expressing a judgment here, it's totally beside the point.

Let's try again: is or isn't Islam officially a religion? That's a fact, it's not my view of what it is or how valid as a religion it is, ok? It's just a statement of fact again.

My point was merely about the mixture of ideology-politics-incitement-etc. with religion. Its very nature. Which is one of the factors that does present a few inherent problems when dealing with it.

One of. The other factors being acquiescence, corruption, appeasement, ineptitude, lazyiness from authorities and from those who do not see the problem or conversely actively support the ideologisation. So on all that I do agree with you. But there is also that inherent problem.

And on that, you didn't answer my question: show me one country in the world where this is being dealt with at least satisfactorily. I'm not saying this to excuse anything, for gosh's sake. Merely, where and how is this problem of penetration of Islamists being dealt with in an effective way?

262 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 5:14:49am

in reply to Mr Pol's #260 again, last bit:

5. All of Europe is like France? "French grandeur is infectious". Clearly Chirac is not the only one affected by that syndrome, round your parts...


Nice insult.

Ooh please. Insult where? If you can't even take a joking dig like that about French grandeur, well, how does that not confirm the cliché? :-))


But you still live in a country where Il Male was the last satirical newspaper with an editorial staff - and was closed down for 'insulting the Pope'. I guess you don't remember that "Adesso dimmi se è latte" that greeted John Paul I death. Or maybe you found the closedown justified.

Haha... I wasn't even around when John Paul I died...

Actually I don't even know whe he was around... How many years ago was that?

(I thought you were going to say: you live in a country where... the terrible Vladimir Berluskaiser censors poor, oppressed left-wing satirists!! poor things!!)

I've only heard little of Il Male, but, a few years ago another very popular satirical magazine had similar provocative covers about the Pope and digs at the Vatican policies, some of which got very furious reactions from the Church, but nothing was censored. Its satire was definitely not of the "light" kind, I can assure you.

There are also books that came out recently denouncing the dodgy affairs of Vatican banks... and made it to the top list of bestsellers... Then there have been interferences, sure, then again, you're talking the Vatican there, it's not suprising... Compared to what they did in the past, though...

But we were talking of the news and media and opinions on politics.

What I was referring to is the censorship that you often talked about in France - you brought instances like filtering Google and not publishing certain news items or bits of certain items, as Merde in France has also referred to often in his blog. And all I said is, that is not happening elsewhere, not like that. There is more variety of sources. Say, the lawsuit against Fallaci was started in France, not in Italy. There are both in Italy and say UK more diversified media sources and nationwide newspapers. Who do not "censor" or dilute fierce criticism of the EU, the Commission, the frauds in Brussels, or the Vatican, or the Vatican banks and affairs, and so on. For instance. Also do not censor fierce "Islamophobic" ™ views, such as Fallaci or others like-minded.

Of course there's politicisation of many media and publishing houses, but, the situation is not the same as in France - at least, from the way I've heard it described, with the political pressure and influence the Chirac circles have.

Which is similar to the way things work at the unelected EU level itself, of course, but not at national level.

For instance. I saw a documentary on Channel 4 (UK) about the rise to power of Chirac, and they interviewed some journalist who wrote denouncing his corruption methods and also the suspicion of political assassinations - and he said he had to publish his books elsewhere, if I don't recall wrong, or that he couldn't get it published.

That kind of thing would not be happening in Britain, for instance.

Ergo, France is not the rest of Europe... non-shocking statement of fact again, I would hope.

263 Mr Pol  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 12:02:05pm

#261 & 262 zaza

What I just wanted to know from you, is, what is the practical conclusion you draw from your observations on indifference.

Don't be ridiculous. I also observe that the sky is blue, and I don't have any 'practical conclusion' either.

There is one thing, though. Democracy only works because of that indifference, because people are not willing to vote on a subject they know next to nothing about and are not interested in. It is also the reason people are vulnerable to propaganda - they won't take time and check the facts on issues they are not really interested in.

It just strikes me that saying that most people (only in Europe?) most of the time care about their jobs and direct interests instead of (insert alternative) is stating an obvious fact of life for most people indeed.

Apparently bigel was not aware it applied to Europeans. And apparently, he is not the only one, seeing how you seem to have trouble understanding how Germans in 1930 were just as human.

But it's also a generalisation, so I pointed out there's not just activism OR indifference.

And of course, there's also trisomy, that puts the entire debate on a totally different level. So? Are you going to quote Gordon and explain how generalisations lead to genocide? Or are you going to quietly agree that pointing out widespread characteristics of the human species is useful generalisation?

First - Scientology has not been banned or closed down anywhere. Scams have been investigated and prosecuted where they occurred, but the Church itself is officially in place everywhere.

I suggest you check what happened to Elronists in Germany and France.

Whereas, if you had to kick out all the imams who preach Jihad (not those involved in terrorism - this is perhaps where you got confused), you'd be left with very few or none, cos Jihad is in their holy book... And Islam is not reformed, modern, or compatible with secular institutions like any other Church of any kind is.

Oh, OK. Which means that if almost all Catholic priests were pedophiles, then it would be an acceptable behaviour. Or at least, one we would be forced to accept.

Are you sure?

show me one country in the world where this is being dealt with at least satisfactorily.

Poland.

What I was referring to is the censorship that you often talked about in France - you brought instances like filtering Google and not publishing certain news items or bits of certain items, as Merde in France has also referred to often in his blog. And all I said is, that is not happening elsewhere, not like that.

The censorship that I often talk about in France has been systematically denied by French people. They have gotten so used to it that they don't see it any more. Just like most Israeli do not see the censorship in our press. But it's there, and it's a real concern. Germany, Portugal, Luxemburg, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium have set up their own Google filtering - and they are all slightly different. And you tell me Italy didn't do it. Just like most French deny there's any filtering going on, until someone rubs their noses in it.

Delusions are functional, indeed.

Ergo, France is not the rest of Europe...

...but there are, alas, more similarities than differences.

264 hans ze beeman  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 10:13:13pm

#259: zaza - incompatible with fatwas

Re: German media - what about the Deutsche Welle? I get it via satellite (the English-speaking channel) and have sometimes watched it, and even their web site, it seems "serious" enough too

They are government-sponsored (like BBC), though they obviously try to be balanced (unlike BBC; this sounds differently). I often find they are much less anti-American than the usual suspects (though they could be a bit more critical of Schröder...).

Btw, zaza, an interesting analysis (PDF, 400KB) on the freedom of press (world-wide) has interesting results. Some results are (higher numbers indicate less freedom):

France

LEGAL ENVIRONMENT: 5
POLITICAL INFLUENCES: 7
ECONOMIC PRESSURES: 5
TOTAL SCORE: 17
Status: Free

Germany

LEGAL ENVIRONMENT: 2
POLITICAL INFLUENCES: 6
ECONOMIC PRESSURES: 7
TOTAL SCORE: 15
Status: Free

Italy

LEGAL ENVIRONMENT: 8
POLITICAL INFLUENCES: 6
ECONOMIC PRESSURES: 14
TOTAL SCORE: 28
Status: Free

United Kingdom

LEGAL ENVIRONMENT: 6
POLITICAL INFLUENCES: 5
ECONOMIC PRESSURES: 7
TOTAL SCORE: 18
Status: Free

United States of America

LEGAL ENVIRONMENT: 5
POLITICAL INFLUENCES: 6
ECONOMIC PRESSURES: 6
TOTAL SCORE: 17
Status: Free

...and for fun:

Saudi Arabia

LEGAL ENVIRONMENT: 29
POLITICAL INFLUENCES: 28
ECONOMIC PRESSURES: 23
TOTAL SCORE: 80
Status: Not Free [lol]

...the validity of every study can and should be investigated, but I found this one quite thorough and credible (the freedom of press doesn't imply anything concerning the orientation of the press, unfortunately...)

...an interesting point, concerning Italy: the main reason for it's higher score than other European countries resides in the economic pressures (political influences - often described as the main "problem" by the usual media - isn't significantly higher than e.g. France, or the US, and even the legal environment is only slightly higher, according to this study). Is it really so difficult for the media in Italy right now concerning economy?

265 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 11:01:11pm

#263 Mr Pol: Ok, then, I do take it you are indeed having a nice straw-men festival.

Very amusing too.

For the record:

- I never said (all/many/most) Germans weren't humans in the thirties'. It was in the context you brought that up, ie. comparison with people living today in democratic nations in Zooropa. Ok? Context.

- I never said "if paedophiles were the majority in the Catholic Church then you'd have to accept that", honestly where did you pull that out of? I said your comparing Jihad-preaching in Islam (an inherent principle of Islam) is impossible to put in a parallel as you did, either to Scientology, which as long as it doesn't scam anyone thrives beautifully - and peacefully - everywhere, or to the criminal behaviour of individual priests in the Catholic Church, behaviour which is certainly not an inherent principle of Catholic and/or Christian doctrine.

- I never said generalisations are not useful. I said the kind of generalisations intended to either condemn OR absolve entire countries/continents etc. are ridiculous.

- for the hundredth time, I never said NO ONE should do anything against the Islamists and Jihadists and terrorists. Merely, that such ideologisation, being so inherent in the religion itself, and a religion which won't reform, presents a few more problems to deal with than, say, communist terrorists or neonazis which are clearly on the fringe.

Yeah, I'm having festival of the obvious here - cos if you keep twisting what I said...

And, my asking which practical conclusion you draw was to give instances of a positive alternative. You name Poland. May we be enlightened as to why? Thanks. And in general, it'd be interesting to find out what exactly you'd want the idiot masses to do. Seize Brussels, like they just did in Georgia? That'd be interesting.

As for immigration - I took as instance Italy because that's where I live and , unlike other esteemed super-experts here, I can't speak about the whole of Europe as if it was one thing since each country has different legislation there. In Italy it was recently changed to be more restrictive. But in no way there are "closed borders". It's still a lot easier to enter regularly than in Australia or the USA. Australia went as far as declaring an island no longer their territory so as to push back a boat of clandestines. Shengen does not prevent countries from taking their own measures either. You also completely ignored what I mentioned, ie. the role of the illegal traffickers and criminal networks exploiting illegal immigration, the role of Gaddafi who explicitely blackmailed on this, the nature and position of the coasts. That there should be a lot more serious action there is plain to see but that kind of "immigration" is in no way of people who "find it hard" to come in regularly. They want to (or are forced to) come in illegally - many also in order to conduct illegal activities. Mafias of all kinds united there. Hardly people who have tried to enter, been refused, and decided to land courtesy of a Lybian boat.

Also, one last thing. Re: censorship. I have to thank you for mentioning the story of "Il Male" cos I went and looked and lo and behold!, many of his co-founders and creators and cartoonists are now famously working for mainstream publications of all kinds such as Il Corriere, Il Giornale, Il Foglio, Playboy, Panorama, some worked for RAI tv, some worked as film scriptwriters and directors, one is the son of Nobel Prize and idiotarian supreme Dario Fo, then people like the late Saviane, very famous writers, many of whom among my favourites in that magazine I mentioned (as well as in today's papers). Not to mention the late Andrea Pazienza who is a legend in his field (they also made a movie about him recently). So it was nice to read a bit more about all that. (Via "filtered" google, of course!) AS for the story of the end of both Il Male and its later offsprings, I couldn't find any references to what you described as specific goverment action to close it down. I found an interview with one of the founders who was answering a question as to why magazines as Il Male and Cuore all ended after a few years, and he talked in general of the nature of satire and politics and news and such, no mention of a government closure of the paper itself. I did read about the countless libel suits and action for "vilipendio", ie. offense against authorities, which is an old measure from the fascist era and very rarely used today. And looky looky here, Pino Zac, one of its founders, also worked in Paris, and he had to flee France and come back to Rome to escape an order of arrest, in the seventies...

So it seems you got a few things mixed up there, as well as, for some reason, talked of things of thirty years ago, totally differnet period, different governments... If you have one instance of specific government censorship from today, that'd be marvellous. And again, if you want a full list of proudly anarchist and "anticlerical" (that's how they called themselves) literature and books attacking also the mighty Vatican-o as well as the old (and new) Christian Democrats, just ask.

The censorship that I often talk about in France has been systematicallydenied by French people. They have gotten so used to it that they don't see it any more. Just like most Israeli do not see the censorship in our press. But it's there, and it's a real concern. Germany, Portugal, Luxemburg, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium have set up their own Google filtering - and they are all slightly different. And you tell me Italy didn't do it. Just like most French deny there's any filtering going on, until someone rubs their noses in it.

Delusions are functional, indeed.

Ergo, France is not the rest of Europe...


...but there are, alas, more similarities than differences.

Ah, ok, if you say so, it has to be true! Obviously everyone else is a deluded idiot, ça va sans dire. One such deluded idiot could perhaps say delusions of grandeur and arrogance are also functional, but clearly that'd be completely wrong. So. Could you perhaps give a few instances proving that Google is filtered everywhere in Europe, please? And how do they achieve that? As in, show me one website that you can access freely from the US, and I can't from here.

Many thanks!

266 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 11:40:10pm

#264 hans ze beeman: that is very interesting, thanks. Curious to see that Germany beats even the US in total score of freedom of the press ;)

The "economic pressures" - I don't know exactly what it refers to, but the first thing that comes to mind is the case of companies such as Telecom Italia, who are one of the biggest advertisers, and so are in many ways "untouchable" by the media - there have indeed been reports of many complaints from users, related to recent scams (the "dialers" on web sites among them), but TI has a powerful machine filing suits for libel against those who do not accept "conciliation", so, you read and hear about those cases on minor papers or media, rarely in the big publishing area. TI also maintains an effective monopoly despite the liberalisation and privatisaion of the telecommunication system. It's a bit of a farcical situation there with TI.

There was an interview in the NYTimes recently with the CEO of one of their competitors, a broadband company, who complained about that.

I did read the part about Italy in the report, like Reporters Sans Frontieres it reports about that satirical programme being banned "because it satirised Berlusconi", but it wasn't banned, it was only shown a week later... and then had countless re-runs. I saw it myself, more than once.

There's another case right now, a satire programme was cancelled by Rai3, again cries of "censorship", no one asks whether the decision was merely editorial, since the programme was not even good or funny. It's true about the libel cases by politicians that the report talks about. It has never "silenced" anybody though. Not that frequent either. I don't know what to think there cos in principle I do find the idea of libel suits by politicians rather dodgy, but, on the other hand, I can think of a couple of cases where there have been literally libellous things printed, ie. lies and misinformation on precise items, not mere opinions - and if companies and private individuals can file a libel suit, why not individuals who are also politicians? Everybody has that right.

Then there is indeed that conflict of interest with Berlusconi in power. Technically it's there, and it's not an ideal situation (and the opposition never did anything about it when they were in power, so as to keep using it politically...). But given the content and slant of his own media, in practice it isn't. Some of those crying "censorship!" publish their anti-Berlusconi stuff... for Berlusconi's own publishing house. Even some of those from that "Il Male" satire magazine are now working for his company's paper (his wife's - Il Foglio). Those media are just not antiamerican and anti-israel and pro-brussels as the enlightened elites of the likes of la Repubblica would like, that's the "problem"... So there's a thing as context even there.

(the freedom of press doesn't imply anything concerning the orientation of the press, unfortunately...)

Indeed...

267 zaza - incompatible with fatwas  Sun, Nov 23, 2003 11:52:23pm

Ps - to hans #264 about the Deutsche Welle - from the little I've read on their website or heard on the tv channel, very superficially and occasionally, that was precisely my impression too, I didn't spot any blatant bias, surely not in the BBC sense. So, good to hear it confirmed from you. They just seem like a more "serious" source overall, as approach, like FAZ. They do seem to cover more international news than the BBC too, on their website.


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