Another formerly nice European country, slowly commencing its descent to third-world status...

Oh, and by the way: FIRST!

I hate it here in Switzerland
The cheese got holes in it
And Hell,
I'm a Baptist
I don't wanna guard no Pope

Don't wanna get blowed up by no [bigoted word] neither

and the pants are too short!

can't these educated swiss rationalists make the elementary sociological distinction between a race and a culture--hegemony now--say yes to cultural imperialism

OT -- at least a bit of good news

U.S. Retracts Report of G.I.'s Being Mutilated

AGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 24 — Military officials retracted a report today that two American soldiers had been slashed in their throats in an attack Sunday in the northern city of Mosul.

A military official here, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that the two soldiers had died of gunshot wounds to the head and that their bodies had been pulled by Iraqis from their car and robbed of their personal belongings.

The military official said that contrary to some reports, the men had not been beaten by rocks or mutilated in any way.

#6 bigel
You're getting better.

This nation is apparently populated mostly by unrepentant Nazis.

Now the big test, just once, on only one day, is it possible that you could not type "Nazi"?

There wasn't anywhere near as many real Nazis in WWII Germany as you have branded here on LGF.

It’s surely not advisable to publish false allegations like those which say that ‘Koran schools’ would be financed by taxpayers' money,” she said.

Right! Money is the most fungible thing around. If somebody is paying for items A, B & C and you you give him money for item A only, he can then take the amount he would have spent on item A and increase his spending on B & C.

IF you fund part of it, you are funding all of it.

No good comes when the government collects money on behalf of religion. The Jehovah's Witnesses make a great deal of noise about only counting as members those who contribute a certain amount of time each monthl in their "voluntary" preaching, and emphasizing that merely attending services is not enough. But when money is involved, as in certain Scandanavian countries, suddenly attendence counts and not preaching time determine their numbers.

It is no fair for a JW or a Jew or a Muslim to support the incumbent churches, but the answer is not "fairer" government distribution of money to churches. It is the separation of church and state.

Official religions? eek...better they should just scrap the list.

(#10) bigel

They didn't sit out the war. They laundered the money to finance the war, laundered billions of dollars the Nazis stole from European Jews and KEPT as much Jewish bank deposits and insurance premiums as they could, and only in the past couple years has there been any kind of settling up - which they fought tooth and nail.

I love visiting Switzerland, it's a beautiful place, but that country has A LOT to answer for. Neutral my arse.

#10 bigel
My sister-in-law is Swiss, is she a Nazi?

This post is about what is proposed. And the L³ there are casting the "racist" card. Much as what is going on in the USA. Does that make us Nazis?

The People's Party claims that cantonal contributions - which are given to all recognised religions

Holy shit, they even socialized the churches! And Jesus' religion isn't even recognized!

#13 SoCalJustice

...but that country has A LOT to answer for. Neutral my arse.

Yes sir, very much to answer for. But what bigel is saying that we should condemn the children for what their parents did.

Self defense is racist?

I know Switzerland isn't the US, and doesn't have our Constitution. Despite the fact that Islam = Death, I can see no way to avoid official recognition of Islam as a religion if the population grows.

If the Muslims insist on recognition, the only thing to do is end government support of all religions.

That isn't the place of government. Even theirs.

Of course, if they banned immigration from regions with known terror links on national security grounds, they could keep all the new Muslims out, and hope the resident Muslims mellow before they breed themselves into the majority.

BTW, which Protestant church does Switzerland recognize? I hope it isn't those savage Presbyterians.

Ramadan Mubarak, y'all!
(just kidding)

#17 sq

Self defense is racist?

It's the way the L³ work, if they have no argument they throw the "racist" card. Pretty hard to call someone a racist for their religion.

According to the World Fact Book, these data exist concerning religious affiliations:

Roman Catholic 46.1%, Protestant 40%, other 5%, none 8.9% (1990)

It's from 1990, but Muslims aren't even recognized - they are to be found among "others"... maybe it's outdated?

Something more funny, concerning languages:

German (official) 63.7%, French (official) 19.2%, Italian (official) 7.6%, Romansch (official) 0.6%, other 8.9%

Yea. Right. The CIA obviously hasn't sent a German speaker to Switzerland. Believe me, it's astonishing - when they rant off in their dialect, it's getting cryptic, but it sounds funny. As a parallel for English speakers, it must be like a drunk Texan, having a sore throat (dear Swiss guys around, no offense meant...). Though a Swiss guy once told me that in his ears, my German had a "French" dialect, because it was so "smooth"! In contrast, when I was in France, they told me my French was "edgy and rough"! What is it? ;)

I wonder what the French think of German-speaking Swiss and vice versa...

Let me rephrase my last post. It's hard to be racist for talking about someone elses religion since a religion isn't a race.

...the Right's campaign bordered on being racist.

Yeah, because it singles out the Islamic..er..race? Kinda like the open-borders groups, who grouse that any opposition to their goals is racist, seeing as how they champion the...um...Mexican race?

#22 reaganite

Let me rephrase my last post. It's hard to be racist for talking about someone elses religion since a religion isn't a race.

But, but, if the LLL can't use the race card, they don't have anything to say! You aren't being fair to them:-)

#24 Engineer

But, but, if the LLL can't use the race card, they don't have anything to say! You aren't being fair to them:-)

Does that mean they'll call me "racist"?

Reaganite

If you aren't in one of their "protected" groups - sure.

OT: LOL! For all who haven't yet found this self-writing warblog, it's fun. Insert a name, and the robot creates a post! I tried "view from Ireland", and it produced this post...

View From Ireland: the case against

In politics, the Democratic Party is the partisan home of the reprehensible and those obsessive and even dangerous members of the ad-hominem elite who have a lust for power. Before it's too late, we must create proud crusading. We owe it to our children. "Maybe we could get Iraq straightened out first," said View From Ireland this week on Meet the Press. That's not what View From Ireland was saying last year.

The pathological Left makes reasonable political discourse impossible when they resort to poison and opportunism every time President Bush says something accurate. The bigots and multiculturalists are showing their true colors, and those colors, having flirted with anti-war and pro-Saddam are now cunningly close to distasteful witch hunting.

Condoleeza Rice, meanwhile, has been demonstrating patriotic statesmanship.

"I have a few questions I'd like to ask about this," says View From Ireland. Considering the circumstances, this is outrageously fork-tongued and internecine.

Isn't Tom DeLay a more fitting recipient for the Nobel Peace Prize?

What a moment! What spin! What treason! What mendacity.

God forbid the public be able to vote for proud leadership.

bigel

You're right about the Swiss, esp. German-Swiss, during WWII (I lived there then.) They turned away thousands at the border, put many who made it across into forced labor camps--and quite a few got in only thanks to the Police Chief of St. Gallen, who went against federal police orders.

But now? The young ones seem less rigid and tight-assed than their predecessors. They don't really like foreigners or Jews (except as high-spending tourists), but they know it's pc to be tolerant. I've met a few real Menschen among them. And rumor has it that a sense of humor is no longer against the law.

#21 hans ze beeman

German Swiss speakers like Toni Rominger and Alex Zulle sound vaguely Danish to me.

Portugese sound Polish. Lots of sch sounds.

Your polyglot-ness embarasses us. Werden sie bald zu schlafen gehen!

Is there an official generic Protestant Church of Switzerland, or what?

reaganite

Not all Germans in WW2 were Nazis (exactly how many were not is debatable but I contest that the vast majority supported Hitler) and yet the Allies bombed the hell out of them, with apparent little concern for "collateral damage." Does that make us war criminals? If it does, I want us to be war criminals again as far as the Muslim/Nazi world is concerned. We haven't heard much militaristic grumblings from the Germans or Japanese, have we? Well, guess what? It's the only way to stop the IslamicNazi menace. Aw, gee, I said Nazi. Twice!! How politically incorrect of me!

bigel

some of us here are with you ALL THE WAY! keep on keepin' on my man!

#13 SoCalJustice 11/24/2003 05:21PM PST
"a beautiful place, but that country has A LOT to answer for. Neutral my arse*. "

What about "neutral" in the sense of "rolls backwards downhill if there is no forward propulsion"?

(* Of course, I still can't get over how many people are willing to donate their personal foundations to causes they don't espouse. Personally, I need mine to sit upon...)

;^}

#29: Yasser Ican Abu Gee (mark holland)

Cool pic you have there! ;)

Your polyglot-ness embarasses us.

Well, Europeans aren't that polyglott as one might think... most speak some English, I guess, but speaking two languages fluently is not what the most here do.

Werden sie bald zu schlafen gehen!

That was polyglott actually, and I will ;)

#21 hans ze beeman

You are making fun of Schwytzerdeutsch, the German-Swiss dialect. May your Emmenthaler be full of huge holes!
It is one hell of a guttural speech.

Just one example:

In regular German (Hochdeutsch)

"Kannst du dir denken?" (Can you imagine?)

In Swiss-German:

"Chasch dr dencke" --same thing, approximate rendering. Each Kanton has a slightly different version!

But it ain't that much worse than a Bavarian villager or Viennese--esp. after a couple of beers.

#31 cj74

some of us here are with you ALL THE WAY! keep on keepin' on my man!

With a straw man post such as that one, it's no wonder bigel is your "man". Really, your post was nonsense from

exactly how many were not is debatable

and got sillier from there.

I have several good Swiss friends. Weird, but nice. I do agree that their modern history has a LOT of dark spots, but so does most of Europe's. It's sickening to see this repulsive Arab Nazi-movement make inroads even in Switzerland.

Hm. Wonder whether islamonazis make good chocolate? Khalifa chocolate? Sounds like a good name. Better than Toblerone, anyway.

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...] Exposing Arab imperialism every day.

#34: observer

May your Emmenthaler be full of huge holes!

That must be one of the most evil Swiss curses :)

But it ain't that much worse than a Bavarian villager or Viennese--esp. after a couple of beers.

That's absolutely true. Actually, drunk Bavarians are worse if drunk...

“Tarring whole sections of society with the same brush borders on discrimination; it’s unfair,” she added.

I wonder if she will be saying this when the Swiss implement Sharia and bring back "tarring" as a punishment.

#33 Hans

That was polyglott actually,

Ich versuche. Ich will sehr besser sein. Ich habe veil zu lernen.

Ich mag meine Bild auch, disco-terrorism an Studio (AK)47.

ok we need a word to replace racist when talking about religion

religioust
theologist
realityist
modernist
nichist
moronist
slopeydopist
anti-mohamedianist

any suggestions

#27 hans ze beeman 11/24/2003 05:48PM PST

lol wish i could see their source code love what they did for my nick wonder what real life politico's would generate

reaganite and Engineer

You all should know that the only racists belong to the right wing Republicans. The democrats even say so, they are "inclusive" and "diverse." Where conservatives only use people of different races as backdrops for their speeches. (oh, and if the person you are disagreeing with is your race then you are either narrowminded or brainwashed)

lol i fed bill clinton in the engine their

Bigel, Reaganite!

How can you two be arguing on the joyous occasion of Eid al Fitr.

I think I'll pour myself a glass of white infidel to celebrate now.

#31 cj74

Words have meanings. Nazi stood for: "National Socialist German Workers Party" Germans who were members were Nazis, no one else.

Some Muslims today may agree with some of Hitler's beliefs, certainly not all of them.

Calling Muslims Nazis just shows your lack of understanding.

Today "Nazi" is like "Racist", something you label someone when you have nothing else to say.

Geneva is grand central station for all sorts of behind the scenes dirty deals.

#45

a glass of white infidel

LOL!

Cheers!

bigel, you should read this (it continues in the next post, by the way).

#41 bigel

You seem to have a relative or friend from every Jew-hating country in Europe. :)

Being that I come from a multi-generation military family, is it so odd that my family has done some travelling? I have an ex brother-in-law who is Cuban, a brother-in-law who is French, and a sister-in-law who is Swiss.

do I think a majority of people are? In many cases, yes.

I've been to many countries all over the world. Is there anti-Semitism or anti American feelings in many of the countries I've been to? Yes, absolutely. You brand all of Europe so often, but in my experience, the only anti-Semite I ever met in Europe was getting the shit kicked out of himself outside a pub in Wales. Does that mean there isn't any? Of course not.

So far, you've branded my sister-in-law, my brother-in-law, and the wife of one of my SSgts "Nazis". Have you met any of the three? I'd bet not.

Are you going to tell me honestly that you have never heard anything that could be construed as anti-Israel or anti-Semitic from any of the Europeans you know?

I've met more anti-Semites in almost all of the Arab countries I have been to than all the years I lived in Europe. BTW, I've met more in the US than in Europe. Even the L³ side of my family is pro-Israel. Are you trying to tell me that my family are anti-Semites?

Weren't there lawsuits very recently by Holocaust survivors/relatives, because the Swiss banks wouldn't turn over money/property stolen from the Jews?

I think I'll pour myself a glass of white infidel to celebrate now.

LOL!

#43 Right Wing Conspirator

(oh, and if the person you are disagreeing with is your race then you are either narrowminded or brainwashed)

Is that why the dims are demanding that the GOP remove the W ad? :-Þ

#45 Ed Moran:Abu Celebrating Eid al Fitr

I think I'll pour myself a glass of white infidel to celebrate now.

I almost missed that! LOL.

state sponsered religion?!?! EECK!!

They should either stop giving $$ to all churches, or make Islams place on the list dependent on not teaching... well... what madrassa's teach nearly everywhere.

Time to watch TV with the wife.

Mañana peoples!

#46, Engineer

You did not have to be a member of the NSDAP to embrace the party's ideology or policies.
So many Germans, interviewed after WWII, said something like this: "Yes, the Nazis were right that the Jews had too much power. I was glad that many of them left Germany. But Auschwitz? I never thought that was what they (the Nazis) had in mind."
And what does that make them?

#44 jimmytheclaw: You should have had reaganite take you out to the flight line.

#50 reaganite

I've met more in the US than in Europe.

I couldn't say one way or the other. But I remembered the other day something that David Lee Roth said in his autobiography. Forgive me it's over 4 years since I read it and I'd have to go and root around in the attic to find it.

I'm pretty sure he I remember him railing against disparaging critics of Van Halen saying things like, "oh it's the Jew's band", "the Jew is such a show off". Things like that. Amazing isn't it?

#56 observer

And what does that make them?

The equivalent of today's "liberals".

#58 Yasser Ican Abu Gee (mark holland)

I'm pretty sure he I remember him railing against disparaging critics of Van Halen saying things like, "oh it's the Jew's band", "the Jew is such a show off". Things like that. Amazing isn't it?

Sadly so.

#59, reaganite

Vicious, but nifty. Still, I'd say today's "left." I hope there's some decency alive among liberals. There isn't within the left.

Do any of you "old-timers" remember "TH from Suburbia", the Swiss who used to pop over here from time to time to tell us Yanks what a crude bunch of right-wing, racist, ham steak with pineapple eating yahoos we were?

Funny, but since Switzerland elected a right-wing government, we haven't heard much from old TH,...,

#57 Model4 11/24/2003 06:42PM PST

huh???

/sound of that comment whizzing by my ear

Engineer (#46)

Calling Muslims Nazis just shows your lack of understanding.

Maybe so, but the Islamists are today's Nazis, just less organized.

#56 observer

You did not have to be a member of the NSDAP to embrace the party's ideology or policies.

Of course not, but that makes you a supporter, not a Nazi.

My point was that calling people Nazi today is stupid.

#61 observer
The L³ has stolen the true meaning of liberal. True liberals today are the centrists.

#58 Yasser Ican Abu Gee (mark holland) 11/24/2003 06:44PM PST

uhhh actually kiss is a jew band ask gene simmons

/sarcasm off

actually gene simmons minus the makeup and big hair did a really good interview on orielley a year or so ago from what i can recall he wanted to give the palestinians a state then after the first attack do a total war against them

#64 zulubaby

Maybe so, but the Islamists are today's Nazis, just less organized.

In that they hate the Jews as much as the Nazis did, yes. The Muslims want to have Islam in control worldwide. The Nazis didn't care much for religon.

My real objection to the word "Nazi" is the same as my objection to the word "racist". They are both used to condemn people when you have no other argument.

actually its been pointed out to me that the word liberal has been mangled beyond repair i remember a link from a thread here where most "liberals" [classic thomas jefferson type] have been turning republican like me because back in the 80's and early 90's the libertarian party was hijacked by agenda driven nuts who stood for what is seen now as the LLL which is as far away from the true spirit of what jefferson stood for thats why bush who i will vote for will win by a landslide next year that will make reagans 1980 win look like a close call

#68 Engineer

My real objection to the word "Nazi" is the same as my objection to the word "racist". They are both used to condemn people when you have no other argument.

Exactly.

#62 Donna V

I successfully repressed those memories until you brought it back up. Thanks, now I'll have to see that shrink again.

#65, Engineer

So we could divide the Germans of WWII into four groups:

1. The Nazis (NSDAP members)
2. Supporters (pro-Nazis, but non-members)
3. The apolitical
4. Anti-Nazis

Problem is: Group #2 happily did the dirty work along with or for Group 1, and Group 3 did it out of fear or "to get along."

The dividing line between Groups 1 and 2 is very, very thin. What do you say about the person cheering a Hitler speech and watching with delight or glee as Jews were escorted to the railroad station for "transport to the East?" No NSDAP card in his wallet.

actually ive read things about hitler where his use of ancient beliefs hence aryan, use of astrologers tearing up places looking for ancient relics if winning the war he woulda fused ancient pagan beliefs with his politics and after 50 maybe a few hundred years woulda birthed a new religion remember it took 3 centuries before christianity became a full fledged religion just like if mohammed was defeated and killed at the battle of mecca most of us would only read about him in obscure archeology digs try this look around wherever you are sitting and picture what an archeologist upon finding these things would say they are in 500 or 1000 years

#58 Yasser Ican Abu Gee (mark holland): Now I've seen it all! Interesting though.

#63 jimmytheclaw: You said you threw Bill Clinton into an engine, so I thought of reaganite and all the huge Air Force engines he's been around. Immature, yeah, but that's where I was going with it.

#66 reaganite:

True liberals today are the centrists.

Eh, I dunno. I've grown accustomed to thinking of today's centrists in terms of the uninformed, fearful and/or bandwagon voters who seek to be in the middle, no matter where the middle is. Not exactly the kind to make a principled stance. But yeah, there are liberals who do find themselves in the no-man's land between two parties to some degree.

Closer to home, there's Islam in Detroit...

[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]

But when parents and officials in the Crestwood School District suggested giving students Tuesday off for the Muslim holiday of Eid-al-Fitr--which marks the end of Ramadan--a firestorm erupted.

The school district of Dearborn is 30 percent Muslim, so the superintendent thought it would be a fine idea to give everyone the day off.

#74 Model4
I look at it this way, we have the R³ (bigel) and the L³ (Gordon/VFI) and we have the centrists from both sides of the fence. We have the left who side more towards the center, and the right who do the same. Liberals (real ones) want more liberties, not less. That in my view are the centrists. I may be wrong, it won't be the first time. But that's my view of real liberals.

engineer

So in otherwords, unless there is is a reincarnation of the NSDAP, noone can ever be labeled a Nazi? As far as I'm concerned, if you're an extermationist Jew-hater then you're a Nazi. With Mein Kampf and The Protocols being best-sellers in the Arab/Muslim world, along with the countless other venom spewed against Jews, not to mention the mass murder of women and children, these people are Nazis!! Would you rather call them Nazi sympathizers? Would that moniker do less to damage your tender sensibilities? Fine, wallow in your PC cesspool. No doubt you think Islam is a ROP and we shouldn't condemn it because a handful of Muslims don't cavort with terrorists. I'm sure you're aware that Himmler, with key assistance from the Grand Mufti (a relative of Arafat), formed SS regiments from the Muslim ranks, which killed 1000s in the Balkans. Himmler knew that Islamic soldiers were tailor-made for the Nazi Movement, for besides being supreme Jew-haters, they glorified matyrdom in the service of genocide. But then again I understand nothing.

reaganite

How I knew you would call my argument silly. Next you'll be calling me a racist. Typical responses from the Left when they have no response.

I believe that Switzerland only recognizes three religions. You register at the post office if you belong to one of these three churches and you are taxed for that church. It sounds strange to us because we are used to the idea of freedom of religion. Also it was only a few years ago that women got the vote in Switzerland. Until then the man voted for his household.

reaganite and Model4

So, examples of "real" or principled liberals would be who?

#72 observer

What do you say about the person cheering a Hitler speech and watching with delight or glee as Jews were escorted to the railroad station for "transport to the East?" No NSDAP card in his wallet.

IF he beleived like that, why would he not be a member and get the perks?

Today, the word "Nazi" has been so misused that all it means is that I think you are a bad person and I don't want to talk to you anymore.

#77 cj74

How I knew you would call my argument silly.

Well obviously, you knew it was BS when you posted it then.

Next you'll be calling me a racist. Typical responses from the Left when they have no response.

LOL, I love it when people accuse me of being a lefty!

Little boy, you are clueless. But you are amusing, keep trying!

#79 observer

So, examples of "real" or principled liberals would be who?

Well, let me ask you the same question? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this...

#82, reaganite

No chip at all. You brought up the "liberals." I hear the screaming left. But where/who are true liberals? Are some in both parties? In universities? Think tanks? Among the people at Appleby's or at the mall? What do you read or hear that deserves the label?

#77 cj74

If you think that I am PC and believe that Islam is a ROP, they you haven't been reading this blog.

The Nazis prime belief was in a master race. Islam believes in a master religion, a very different thing.

People that use the word “Nazi” to describe anything other than a WWII German, are shallow and almost always on the left.

#79 observer

As much as I don't agree with him politically, I would suggest Zell Miller.

#83 observer
My post in #76 pretty much is my opinion on your question.

reaganite

OK, you're not a Lefty...my apologies. But tell me, do you work for the State Dept. old man?

#87 cj74
Since you are new here, I'll let you in on something that most of the old timers to LGF know. I'm a 23 year active duty EOD tech.

Try again, you're still making me laugh!

#79 observer: Well, not to try and cop out, but it's pretty hard to come close to pinning down an agreeable definition of "liberal" in this context. Right now, most think "Whatever's good to me philosophically and politically, then that's the definition." Not even today's liberals want to be known as liberals, and there are many that dread the label conservative. So it becomes "I'm a liberal, but a kind of liberal that doesn't exist anymore. The reasonable kind.", but can't tell you what that means. "I'm for freedom!" Well, who isn't? Or who is, in all cases at all times? "We don't want too much (or too little) of this." Good, but by definition, too much is bad in everyone's eyes. Where is the line drawn?

I can't think of a single founding father, for instance, that wouldn't be an "extremist right-winger" in today's landscape, voting GOP and damning the party for their embrace of big-gubment socialism. One only has to look at their histories and their states to see that they all believed in restraints that would trouble a centrist today.

We can look to the libertarians to fill the bill, but most are full of hot air. Some are merely pro-pot, and latch onto an ideology that's not afraid to agree. Others are anarchists, who dream of a leave-me-alone personal and international isolationism, and entertain the notion that everyone is as good-natured and responsible as they, so it'll all work out somehow. The rest have "too many rules," and paradoxically end up doing some scary politburo planning.

Actually, I think the usefulness of liberal/conservative are pretty much over. More definitive splits can be found amongst those that support the Constitution (and have actually read it), and those that don't. Socialist vs Capitalist. Big government vs small. Morality vs amorality (as far as being codified in law).

Anyhow, if you've got a definition or set of criteria to make a liberal, I'll be glad to try to address it. Of course it's not a fair request on my part, but it's what we're stuck with to some degree. I'm picturing a possible candidate in George Will, but don't really know enough about him. Actually, come to think of it, Rush Limbaugh is pretty Jeffersonian (yet another current definition) in a lot of his approaches and reasoning.

#87 cj74: Cease fire, at least until you get some context and perspective. Maybe you've got some things worth hearing, but trust me, they're not coming through now. Just trust me, you're on the wrong track in this thread.

Engineer

I have read many of your posts on this blog and do realize you are not PC nor feel Islam is a ROP. I got a bit carried away there. Forgive me. However, I completely disagree with you on this "nazi" thing. To say that only WW2 German card-carrying members of the NSDAP can be labeled "Nazis" is to diminish what the Third Reich did. Sort of like the "i'm not anti-Semitic i'm only anti-Zionist" canard. Words DO have meaning. The term "Nazi" is part of the historical lexicon. Just because it can be misused at times does not render it meaningless when applied properly. I agree that the Left uses the term to disparage enemies, which is ironic since the Radical Leftists are truly Nazi-like. After all, it was called National Socialism. Perhaps we need a semantics professor to sort it all out. Anyone except Chomsky that is.

#91 cj74

I had a lot of fun one night on a leftist newsgroup talking about how the Nazis were socialists. Some of them got so mad, they couldn't type.

Model 4

OK, I'll trust you on this one. It seems to me many of these threads get off on the wrong track, i.e., change subjects. But I don't think that's what you meant. I'd like you to explain to me, if possible, how it is i am not coming through. Is it because my "Nazi" argument is flawed or because I might have offended a couple of posters (who I've apologized to), or both? Thanks.

#93 cj74: It was getting the wrong impression of some posters here, and then things went from there. FWIW, I think the argument that the term Nazi does apply in more instances than some would allow is correct, while being way overused by others.

But you're willing to listen and re-evaluate, so I imagine things'll work out just fine.

#89, Model4

"...the usefulness of liberal/conservative is pretty much over..."

That's exactly why I asked. The other "splits" you cite are more useful, but I'm suspicious of several:
What is the "right-size" government for this country? (The one that does the most good for the most people?)Do we really have "socialists" in this country? I mean, in numbers and positions so they should be taken seriously?
The "morality" split is there. I take that one more to heart than the others. It has poisoned the air of public discourse. Much else (incl.TV) has lowered its level. The professoriate has coarsened it. But thoughtful voices remain. We need to encourage them, no matter what side of a political fence we perceive them to come from.

"Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and prosperity, during which it invented . . . the cuckoo-clock".

Harry Lime in "The Third Man" by Graham Green.

#95 observer: Thanks. After pointing out (plausibly, IMO) that "liberal" is pretty much over, I insist on using modern-day examples unless someone else attached to the word can give reasonable guidelines. I can show anyone millions of self-identifying liberals who share much in common, so if no one wrests the word away, that's what we're stuck with.

As far as "right-size" and the criteria for judging it, if that wasn't rhetorical, then there shouldn't be an answer. If there was, and it was universally agreed upon, it wouldn't be useful as a political division.

"Do we really have socialists?" And how! Unless we're mixing terminology. Socialized medicine? Hillary-care even went as far as to try and tell providers where they would be required to work. Minimum wages. Price fixing. Loathing of religion. Speech codes. Disarmed populace. Workers employed by the state wherever possible. More resources controlled by the state than the private sector. State-run media. Higher taxes. Anti-private property. Re-distribution of wealth. Progressive taxes. Welfare in place of charity. De-emphasis of the family. Unionization. Political indoctrination over education in mandatory state schools. On and on and on.

Not all these are bad, some can be good in very small doses. But I can point you to high-profile congressmen and presidential candidates who are heavily in favor of damn-near all of the above, and they'd like to go even further than they feel they can express in public. And behind each of these is thousands to millions of voters.

The morality thing is probably toughest, as most want more than we have now, but are also fearful of being impacted by someone else's definition of vice. Perhaps we need to approach this more objectively as a society, in the context of what has proven through history to help and harm us as a whole.

All one has to do to see that Zurich is in deep shit is to ride the train from the airport to downtown and read the graffiti. Good luck Switzerland you are about to lose your last vestage of innocinse. You can bank on it.

mockingbird  11/24/2003 08:46PM PST
"Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and prosperity, during which it invented . . . the cuckoo-clock".

LOLOL Brilliant observation.

#68 Engineer 11/24/2003 07:01PM PST

#64 zulubaby

Maybe so, but the Islamists are today's Nazis, just less organized.
In that they hate the Jews as much as the Nazis did, yes. The Muslims want to have Islam in control worldwide. The Nazis didn't care much for religon.

Sorry, but I can't agree.

The Muslims care very much about race - as a population control tool.

Converts--er, "reverts" are encouraged or pressured to take Arab names for that reason. Also for that reason, dark-skinned muslims will always be "less equal" than Arab types. You may be surprised to learn that Circassians and other blonde ("white") "imports" dyed their hair black in the great harems - because the muslims looked down on blondes.

Qu'ran says it was given in Arabic to an Arab - therefore, any translation is a "lesser book." "There is no compulsion in Islam" - but there is vast manipulation, from seething to swordplay. 8^{ Victims--er, reverts are encouraged to read in the original language - not necessarily to understand what they pronounce... This functional illiteracy makes it easier to manipulate people.

The same manipulation featured in Nazi Germany - beginning with the manipulative blend of Eastern mysticism/Nordic mythology to shape people into a "master race mentality."

The Nazis cared very much about religion - as a population control tool.

This only works well on "social christians" (people who were born into a "christian" family or society) and on immature (often ignorant or deprived) christians. What do I mean by these terms? Consider this:

Several posters have mentioned that Israel is not a "jewish-religion state," right? And that is so. However, it is just as foolish to say "christian nation" as it is to say "jewish-religious nation." It is possible for a person to be jewish either by birth or choice.

OTOH, genuine christianity is always a choice made by a reasoning person to live in relationship with G-d through the Saviour's mediation, as planned by G-d from the time of the first sin.

A christian's maturity depends in large part on a strong connection with G-d through personal prayer (listening as well as speaking) and the guidance of Scripture (especially since, like sheep, people so easily go astray.) Therefore, Nazis carefully targetted religion.

Aside from Hitler's fascination with Eastern religions (from which he stole the swastika sign, reversed), the Nazis did a real job on the "nominal" or "social christian" churches. They lifted every quote from the Bible that said something negative about Jews, and that was the new reference book to preach from and read.

Clerics who refused to follow the new program shared cattle cars with the Jews, gypsies (Rom), and other undesired folks. Committed, knowledgeable Christians died in the gas chambers right beside the Jews they refused to denounce from the pulpit. Mature christians also helped Jews hide and escape - even if it was only the thousands of children fostered by Christian families outside the Reich's reach. (Mature christians do not tend to be the majority in any society.)

The Nazi manipulation is the same perversion of christianity that "religion twisters" used in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages. Back then, lay christians didn't even get to look at the Bible - some large christian groups were discouraged from reading the book even in the late 20th century! In the paternalistic religous system, it was easy for charismatic speakers to warp ignorant, immature christians and "social" or "nominal" christians into tools for their evil agendas.

An ignorant group of christians is just as subject to disinformation as any other group. Honest people have been shamelessy used and abused so that the evil few could use them to destroy G-d's plan (and Abraham's descendents through Isaac). We should be grieved, but not surprised, at this ongoing theme.

“Tarring whole sections of society with the same brush borders on discrimination; it’s unfair,”

...unless you're tarring all non-collectivists (rightwing Radicals) with the "racism" brush, that is. Then it's okay.

"Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and prosperity, during which it invented . . . the cuckoo-clock".

Except this is not true.

The real culprit is the Schwarzwald (Southern Germany).

102 mixa

Offhand I can think of Euler and Bernoulli, both Swiss, and mathematicians extraordinaire.

I believe Euler invented a constant or approximation, which looks like either the Greek letter gamma or lambda. I can't remember which.

Back in Intro to Fluid Flow to Porous Media (if you're a petroleum engineer, you know what I am talking about, although the original maestro of porous media was a French sanitation engineer named D'Arcy), you eventually wind up with something we call the diffusivity equation, which turns out to be a nasty partial differential equation. However, when certain conditions of time and distance from the wellbore are reached, Euler invented something to make our lives easier.

Details are rather hazy for me, as I took these classes about 15 years ago, and don't do enough well test analyses to actually use it much.

I do know that Dr. Caudle pronounced Euler "Oiler".

#97, Model4

Your third paragraph on socialism: certainly minimum wages and some health care are not "socialist" impositions but societal necessities. Price fixing? How about price gouging? State-controlled media??? Have you looked lately who owns what in publishing, TV etc etc? The state? Naw.
Speech codes are abhorrent. I don't know about "hating" religion--live and let live is my motto here. You or I can attend church as often as we want, pray in our homes, build synagogues or go to shul three times a day or confession once daily--who's stopping anyone from practicing his or her religion?
Unionization? But you know the histpry of American labor? How else could workers in the early years deal with management? Today's another story.
Hell, the failure of much of socialism is well documented. But occasionally it serves as a straw man to attack some measures to help segments of our society attain a reasonably decent level of living. Not freebies, not handouts--but assistance.
I do agree with you on the family, education and morality issues. But if you look at the "causes" only in the 1960s, you'd miss the influence of consumer capitalism in the 1980s. Lasch on the rise of selfishness is not wrong--he's a thoughtful interpreter of American culture, not a hater. Cheers.

From yodeling to call-to-prayer...not that big a jump, musically at least.

#102, 103: Also, two heavyweights in Psychology: Jean Piaget, the father of Developmental Psychology, and Karl Jung.

Some more famous Swiss:

-William Tell, inspiration for theme song of "The Lone Ranger"

-Ulrich Zwingli, founder of Anabaptist movement

-Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim, known as Paracelsus, natural scientist and alchemist

-Jean-Jacques Rousseau, philosopher and writer

#108, Frank IBC

Wilhelm Tell--a lovely legend, but no evidence such a figure existed. But the play about him by Schiller is terrific.

The William Tell Overture was also very popular as "streaking" music in the mid-1970s.

And the prelude to that featured in many Loony Toons cartoons. (It's actually very different from the rest of the piece; many are unaware that they are both the same piece.)

But Rossini, who composed it, was Italian, so Switzerland gets only partial credit here.

A large number of my family members spent the war in Switzerland in work camps. The border guards were going to turn them over to the Nazis, so they collected all their jewelry and bribed the border guards to do their jobs and let them cross the border into "Neutral" Switzerland. Lots of other families were not so lucky. They stayed. They worked. They were despised. They lived. I'm grateful.

Freedom of religion isn't a big thing in Switzerland. They don't have constitutional protections like ours--although any civilized country should.

Oh dear if we all don't become islamic we will be called racist!!!

Sorry to interrupt you with a few facts.

The proposed official recognition of non-Christian religious communities in Zurich was *not* conceived by the Muslim world conspiracy. It would include, of course, the Jewish communities, who actively support the proposal. I personally think this is wrong and the state should be separated from the church - all churches. Nevertheless, the Swiss supreme court has banned all religious symbols from schools, and this includes muslim headscarfs worn by teachers. While the German court (erroneously) thinks this should be allowed in the name of religious freedom, Switzerland (correctly) regards it as a form of religious indoctrination. Religious freedom is, of course, protected and firmly embedded in the constitution. The Zurich proposal in no way affects it.

As to supposed Swiss antisemitism, it is somewhat telling that you have to dig back into WW II to come up with something. Please remove briefly the little green footballs before your eyes and take note that Switzerland is the only European country to ever have elected a Jewish president (Ruth Dreifuss in 1999). Antisemitism has become marginal in Switzerland, and the country has traditional friendly ties with Israel, especially at the military level.

Speaking of WW II, let me also enlighten you to the canard of the dormant Jewish bank accounts. Most dormant Swiss bank accounts thought to have belonged to Holocaust survivors were opened by wealthy, non-Jewish people (predominantly American and French) who then forgot about their money. Of the 15,000 accounts investigated, only 200 could be traced to Holocaust survivors. That was the (completely unexpected) result of the four-year investigation carried out by the Independent Claims Tribunal, published in 2001 but largely ignored.

Another poster here thinks Switzerland has elected a right-wing government. That's doubly wrong - the government will only be elected on December 10, and it will not be right-wing. The right-wing People's Party is actually trying hard to win a second seat out of seven in the cabinet. Should that fail, it will withdraw from government entirely.

And now back to your cliches.

Frogman Henry (#113)

Thanks for the info. Too bad you had to ruin it by being a condescending tool.