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Telling the Truth, Facing the Whip

Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 8:46:38 am PST

A rare sighting of a possible liberal Muslim in today’s New York Times, with an op-ed that puts the blame for the spread of jihad ideology in the Islamic world squarely where it belongs—on the hatred and incitement that passes for education in Saudi Arabia: Telling the Truth, Facing the Whip. (Hat tip: Ben F.) The author, Mansour al-Nogaidan, has been sentenced to 75 lashes for writing articles like this one.

The most recent government crackdown on terrorism suspects, in response to this month's car-bombing of a compound housing foreigners and Arabs in Riyadh, is missing the real target. The real problem is that Saudi Arabia is bogged down by deep-rooted Islamic extremism in most schools and mosques, which have become breeding grounds for terrorists. We cannot solve the terrorism problem as long as it is endemic to our educational and religious institutions.

Yet the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Islamic Affairs have now established a committee to hunt down teachers who are suspected of being liberal-minded. This committee, which has the right to expel and punish any teacher who does not espouse hard-core Wahhabism, last week interrogated a teacher, found him "guilty" of an interest in philosophy and put on probation.

During the holy fasting month of Ramadan, imams around the country stepped up their hate speech against liberals, advocates of women's rights, secularists, Christians and Jews — and many encouraged their congregations to do the same. I heard no sermons criticizing the people responsible for the attacks in Riyadh, in which innocent civilians and children were killed. The reason, I believe, is that these religious leaders sympathize with the criminals rather than the victims.

I cannot but wonder at our officials and pundits who continue to claim that Saudi society loves other nations and wishes them peace, when state-sponsored preachers in some of our largest mosques continue to curse and call for the destruction of all non-Muslims. As the recent attacks show, now more than ever we are in need of support and help from other countries to help us stand up against our extremist religious culture, which discriminates against its own religious minorities, including Shiites and Sufis.

But we must be aware that this religious extremism, which has been indoctrinated in several Saudi generations, will be very difficult to defeat. I know because I once espoused it. For 11 years, from the age of 16, I was a Wahhabi extremist. With like-minded companions I set fire to video stores selling Western movies and even burned down a charitable society for widows and orphans in our village because we were convinced it would lead to the liberation of women.

Then, during my second two-year stint in jail, my sister brought me books, and alone in my cell I was introduced to liberal Muslim philosophers. It was with wrenching disbelief that I came to realize that Islam was not only Wahhabism, and that other forms preached love and tolerance. To rid myself of the pain of that discovery I started writing against Wahhabism, achieving some peace and atonement for my past ignorance and violence.

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63 comments

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1 johnCV  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:50:30am

Ok, that's one....

2 Pablo  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:53:06am

There are more...but calling things what they are is a dangerous business in SA.

He's already had the death threats. How long until they're carried out?

3 John b  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:53:18am

I can't help but think - a voice crying out in the wilderness - alone.

God help him.

4 Paladin  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:55:19am

Islam is not a religion, it is a brutal, vicious cult.
There is no god named allah.
Mohammed was a pedophile.

Where allah goes, blood flows.

5 J.D.  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:56:43am

Nice find, Ben F. If this is for real, I sincerely wish all the best for the health and safety of the author.

6 RC neo-Jew  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:58:59am

As proof that the Vatican is finally getting a clue about the dangers they face - from the official Vatican news site, Zenit.org: Understanding Islam and the Theology of Jihad

Catholics have a duty to be informed about Islam and the challenges it poses to Christianity. So says Robert Spencer, an expert on Islam who recently co-authored "Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics" (Ascension) with Daniel Ali, a convert from Islam.
Spencer shared with ZENIT why he and Ali are dedicated to informing Christians about one of the most misunderstood and fastest growing faiths in the world: They see it not only as the Church's chief rival for souls but as a serious threat to the peace and well-being of the Church and the Western world in general.

Followed by a question and answer section... worth a look.

7 Kylaer  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 6:59:40am

If this guy is serious (and, keeping in mind what kind of punishment he's targetted with by the Saudi government, I'd guess that he is), we need to get him out of there soon. Fast-track visa, anyone?

8 Elizabeth  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:02:28am

He speaks the truth, G*d help him!

9 Reality Cheque  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:02:44am

IT's sad to say, but this voice of reason and enlightenment will probably be killed by a Wahabi fanatic.

..or killed as a zionist sympathizer

...or victim of an honor killing


How will it all end?

10 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:02:48am

very well written, would like to see more of his writings. anybody else know of his writing??? i'll be away from here next week my father just passed away so i might not have much computer time when i go to the funeral [not looking forward to the 5 hour drive to get there]

11 Smitty  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:02:51am

Man, this guy's gonna be fatwa'd for sure. Poor bastard.

What's the count up to now for moderate, rationale, islamic scholars/writers?

12 J.D.  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:04:10am

#10 jimmytheclaw

Take care. So sorry about your father. Be safe.

13 Robert Crawford  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:04:35am
Fast-track visa, anyone?

As if the State Department would let him in the US.

14 Jamie Irons  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:04:50am

Astonishing piece; if it holds up that this guy is for real, and if it is true that there are others like him, then I am ready to start believing in the existence of that rara avis, the moderate or liberal Muslim...

Jamie Irons

15 cba  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:05:54am

#10 jimmytheclaw:

My condolences. Drive safely. Your LGF family will be thinking of you.

16 Thom  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:16:35am
17 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:16:41am

if anybody wants to use charles's email system i'll save and show my family any sympathy cards i recieve boy i hope christmas is better yesterday my landlord said my lease is up feb 1st and that if i want it renewed i have to get rid of my cats. i told him thanks for 2 months notice i'll be moving and my girlfriend will be also. on the bright side things just have to get better well time for a glass of manischewits wine anybody know what this hebrew on the bottle says

18 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:18:02am

Hats off to this incredibly courageous man. Mind you, I suspect that Apostate Muslim organizations like ISIS and FFI would take issue with one of his comments:

and alone in my cell I was introduced to liberal Muslim philosophers. It was with wrenching disbelief that I came to realize that Islam was not only Wahhabism, and that other forms preached love and tolerance.

As the sites above argue, one of Islam's major problems is that there's very little public preaching of ''love and tolerance,'' and likewise no well-articulated theology supporting ''love and tolerance,'' even though many individual Muslims sincerely believe that their religion is about L&T. (Or, in the words of Ibn Warraq, ''there are countless liberal Muslims, but there is no such thing as liberal Islam.'')

Still, good to see a Saudi Muslim who's striving to be on the side of the angels, even if he's arguably very naïve to think that Wahhabism is the only significant culprit.

19 mhw20854  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:18:56am

Jamie,

Yes there are others like him, but they are likely a small minority in Saudi Arabia. Also, one of the people at

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

thinks that there are at least 50,000 people in Saudi Arabia who would renounce Islam tomorrow if they had freedom of conscience there. The guys's nom de site is "bread" - frequent commenter on their forum.

A typical article at this site is [Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

which is by a fellow named Abul88 who is fighting almost the same fight as LGF. He is trying to write a book and I have advised him to contact LGF to get permission to use some of the images LGF has placed on his site.

20 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:20:27am

Mind you, I suspect that Apostate Muslim organizations like ISIS and FFI would take issue...

Damn, got the second link wrong. Here's FFI.

21 James  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:22:43am

Just goes to show you that wherever there is tyranny there are brave people (person?) who will speak out against it.

22 Smitty  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:23:55am

#16 Thom,

Geez, I was actually half joking.

Al-Fahd said Al-Nogaidan has renounced Islam by his criticism of what Wahhabi clerics taught in mosques. He called Al-Nogaidan a sick infidel who must be killed. The fatwa was published on Shaik Ali Al-Khoder website, a mentor of Al-Fahd

What a messed-up world.

23 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:25:18am

#19 mhw20854 11/28/2003 09:18AM PST

Jamie,

ive read and bookmarked faithfreedoms site ive been through most of it one downside to it though it seems that it is built buy evangelist christians [which means it seems to be preaching to me style i might be wrong]
why did you use jamie for my name?

24 cba  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:25:19am

#17 jimmytheclaw:

time for a glass of manischewits wine anybody know what this hebrew on the bottle says

It says, "This stuff is syrupy crap, buy a decent bottle of Golan wine instead."

25 Seymour Paine  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:25:34am

The big question is: is he alone, nearly alone, expressing the views of a large numbers of Saudis? I know they are not born Jew and Christian haters, but are they salvagable? I wish him the best. I cannot imagine, myself born and raised in America and taking my freedom for granted, growing up in such a wretched and cruel society.

26 cba  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:27:28am

Throbert McGee, I just wanted to tell you that your comment
on the Mr. Holland thread was very funny.

27 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:28:52am

lol girlfriend likes sweet syruppy stuff didnt see any golan wine in the state store [i live in pennsylvania] i did however state kinda loudly about not buying any french crap and somethin about letting them eat frogs when my girlfriend pointed out a few made in france products was kinda funny fealt good to

28 Thom  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:29:20am

#22 Smitty

The fatwa department never sleeps.

I'm trying to google up some info on some other writers who have been fatwahed (from that article):

Abdul Aziz Alqassim, Abdullah Ben Bejad Al-Otaibi, and Khaled Al-Ghanaam

29 David  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:31:45am

Woaw! And the NYT does not think he is an extremist/racist/islamophobic.

30 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:31:57am

ooohhhh british found shoe bomb in suspects arrested yesterdays posession seems mi-5 is on the ball

31 Smitty  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:32:40am

#27 jimmy,

I'm sorry for your loss. It sounds like you're having a tough go. Beware of "posting while drinking". =)

32 Donna V.  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:33:01am

My condolences to you, jimmytheclaw:-(

I'm wondering what "liberal Muslim philosophers" this guy was reading in prison. Sufi mystics, perhaps?

A bit ironic, isn't it, that a Muslim extremist goes to jail in SA and comes out a moderate, while in America's jails, thousands are being converted to Islamofascism funded by the Saudis?

33 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:36:18am

#31 Smitty 11/28/2003 09:32AM PST

#27 jimmy,

I'm sorry for your loss. It sounds like you're having a tough go. Beware of "posting while drinking". =)

yeah nuthin like not remembering a flame war [been there done that] just having a glass or two gotta stay sober

34 Thom  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:39:48am

Re: Abdul Aziz Alqassim

[Link: www.arabianews.org...]

Understatement of the year:

In the interview, Mr. Alqasim criticized the education system of Saudi Arabia, saying that the radical materials that are being taught in Saudi religious schools are 400 years old, and not suitable for the current needs of the Saudi citizens.

Off with his head!!

35 Smitty  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:40:56am

#33 Jimmy,

Okay, just checking. Gotta agree with you on the French wine. I recommend

Scotch whisky

36 Advocate  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:42:12am

I was overjoyed to read the article until I reached the penultimate paragraph. Mr. Mansour al-Nogaidan cannot think beyond royalty. He cannot think that a leader elected in a democratic fashion can come up in Arabia and rid the country of oppression created by Wahabi Islam and the Saudi royal family. Democracy is an idea that is totally alien to Islamic culture.
Mr. Mansour al-Nogaidan is a liberal in the Islamic world but he has a long way to go before he can be considered liberal (or civilized) by the rest of the civilized world.

37 jimmytheclaw  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:43:43am

#35 Smitty 11/28/2003 09:40AM PST

heh i agree but decent scotch is 35+ dollars for a liter or a fifth way too much for me right now

38 Nancy  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:44:27am

Considering that there are millions and millions of Muslims --indeed --even a moderate one who speaks out is rare.

Even rarer would be the day when those who do speak out --can do so without having a Fatwa issued for their extermination.

It's a start but there is NO organized group of Muslims making an effort to denounce the political ideology of Islam--that the goal of Islam politically and socially is to rule the entire world --accomplishing that by whatever means is necessary.

The flaw is in the thinking that Islam is a "peaceful" religion and that everyone will "voluntarily" submit once they know that. Even the non-extreme Islam STILL believes that their mission in life is to convert or subjugate everyone to Islam. There are those who "hope" it could be accomplished by peaceful means and there are those who understand that democracy and individuality will NEVER lead to anyone accepting a totalitarian form of government.

So, it's courageous for any sole voice out of the millions to speak out. They are lone voices and I would not call them moderates but enlightened and progressive.

39 David  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:56:27am

#38 Nancy

even a moderate one who speaks out is rare

It is obviously very difficult and even more dangerous for them to peakout.
But another reason is that our media will not usually let them expose their conceptions, their criticisms of either Islam or the Arab regimes. It is very commonplace in France to stifle Arabs with a, let's say, unorthodox view of their religion. Oddly enough, most of them are not allowed to speak against their religion by non-muslim journalists. What good dhimmis!!!

40 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 7:56:39am

And if you're reading this, Charles, may I suggest that it's long past due to give Secularizing Islam and Faith Freedom permalinks in the sidebars? (These sites are run largely by ex-Muslims who take an unapologetically secular humanist stance, but neither site bashes those who continue to embrace spirituality and belief in some form of deity -- the only religion they're against is Islam.)

Because they offer first-person testimonies from actual ex-Muslims (and questioning Muslims, and disgruntled liberal Muslims), some of whom are native speakers of Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc., both these sites are goldmines of rebuttals to well-intentioned Western liberals who've bought into apologist B.S. like ''even if the Quran has a few violent passages, that's not what they're teaching in most mosques.'' (Mind you, I'm still having trouble getting my well-intentioned liberal friends to follow my links and read some testimonies already, so I've started including brief quotes and links in my .sig files.)

Plus, Faith Freedom, in particular, recognizes the value of rudely irreverent humor in combating superstition and fanaticism.

41 Morgan  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:02:59am

What distinguishes this piece from the usual crap spewed by Friedman and Krugman is that there is no mention of Israel or Sharon. A usual Times op-ed will set-up a false dichotomy between Islamic radicalism and Israeli policies (If only Sharon would . . . then Saudi Arabia would modernize, Iran would become a secular state and Syria would turn into Holland). Here we see the unvarnished truth - Saudi despotism is not a response to some external pressure but is based on the fundamental belief systems of those who hold power. If tomorrow Israel would withdraw to the 1967 lines, the 1948 lines or disappear entirely, the Arab world would remain despotic, cruel and violent.

42 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:04:33am

Throbert McGee, I just wanted to tell you that your comment on the Mr. Holland thread was very funny.

Thanks, cba. I think that ''Why Do Homosexuals...'' op-ed I linked to is one of the Onion's best efforts ever -- the genius part is it that it both satirizes a certain type of homophobe and parodies a certain subgenre of gay porn. (Speaking of Onion classics, I do wish they still archived the "Monkey Supercollider'' article -- in my mind, they've never topped that one, but I guess it was too geek-oriented.)

43 Thom  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:05:55am

Hey Charles! I found a fatwa that just might help to explain the hacks you've been dealing with:

[Link: www.arabianews.org...]

The Saudi Information Agency has obtained a fatwa approving cyber terrorism issued by the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia Shaikh Abdul Aziz Al-Alshaikh, the highest official cleric in the country.
...
The Fatwa

Question: If there were websites on the internet that are hostile to Islam, and broadcasting immoral materials. Is it permissible for me to send it viruses to disable and destroy these websites?

Abdul Aziz Saleh Al-Morashid – Erqa

Answer: If these websites are hostile to Islam and you could encounter its evilness with goodness; And to respond to it, refute its falsehood, and show its void content; that would be the best option. But if you are unable to respond to it, and you wanted to destroy it and you have the ability to do so, its ok to destroy it because it is an evil website.

Source: AlDaawa Magazine, issue 1741, May 11, 2000.

The fatwa is 3 years old, but I imagine it took the e-jihadis a while to figure out what they're doing.

44 eyehatehippies  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:10:30am

Leftists would love to lash us westerners, for being "bourgeois" (whatever the hell that is). Punishing wrong thought is integral to their system. Its one of the reasons they love Islam. Islam rule, is it that much different than the communist utopia?
Islam = religious communism
Communism = secular islam

45 quark2  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:10:58am

@17 jimmytheclaw

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. Please have a safe trip going and coming back home. I hope the weather holds fair for you too.

46 greenmamba  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:11:38am

A great article. The NYT publishes this kind of thing now and again to show they are unbiased. Their loyal readers just ignore such articles.

47 Robert  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:14:33am

Nogaidan is for real. As Saudi reformers go, he is the antithesis of Saad al-Fagih.

Incidentally, I wrote a background piece on Nogaidan on Tuesday called "It Takes One to Know One"

Lots of info there.

48 gymnast  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:17:38am

#30, Jimmy the Claw. Did you see anything about what size the shoe was, the shoe size of the guy they picked up ect? This could have all the makings of a "Cinderella" story if the press plays it right. I can see the British cops now, searching the mosques for a Prince of Darkness (size 12 EEE?) to see if the shoe fits.

49 Norwegian kafir  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:20:01am

#40 Throbert McGee:
And if you're reading this, Charles, may I suggest that it's long past due to give Secularizing Islam and Faith Freedom permalinks in the sidebars? (These sites are run largely by ex-Muslims who take an unapologetically secular humanist stance, but neither site bashes those who continue to embrace spirituality and belief in some form of deity -- the only religion they're against is Islam.)

Throbert Mcgee, may I add another site:

[Link: www.apostatesofislam.com...]

As one of the regulars over at [Link: www.faithfreedom.org...] , I agree with you. The best way to know Islam is through the eyes of ex-muslims. They know all the details that you might otherwise miss. The best part of ISIS, which is Ibn Warraq's website by the way, is the "Why I left Islam" section, [Link: www.secularislam.org...] .

ANY person serious about fighting Islam SHOULD know at least these three sites, and pass them on to friends and family. The importance of ex-muslims in this struggle cannot be overestimated.

50 Nancy  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:21:34am

#39 David

No disagreement from me --that they face tremendous difficulty not just risking their safety but finding a venue (media) who will allow them to be heard.

51 mhw20854  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:27:23am

J the claw and throwbert McGee

FFI's ( [Link: www.faithfreedom.org...] ) main content provider is Ali Sina who is a deist or, on some days, an agnostic.

The secularislam.org people range seem to have a similar, if less agnostic position.

however at [Link: www.islamreview.com...]

they have a Christian viewpoint.

However, there is some cross cutting. For example, the islamreview people have posted Ali Sina's "Why I left Islam"

also, Jimmy, may you comforted for your loss

finally,

also, I agree with you McGee and I think; once the FFI site is fixed, that Charles should give a headline to the trial of humanity vs. Mohammud

52 Norwegian kafir  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:28:11am

Some other sites of ex-muslims worth checking out:

[Link: www.geocities.com...]

[Link: www.homa.org...]

[Link: www.geocities.com...]

[Link: www.geocities.com...]

These sites are not as great as the above mentioned, but they are still interesting.


[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...] Islam is the Matrix. We hand out red pills.

53 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:40:20am

Throbert Mcgee, may I add another site:
Apostates of Islam

Thanks, N.K. -- I had seen that site too, but couldn't recall the exact name or URL, and was hoping that someone else would mention it.

#23 jimmytheclaw:

ive read and bookmarked faithfreedoms site ive been through most of it one downside to it though it seems that it is built buy evangelist christians

I think you're confusing Faith Freedom with Answering Islam, where the testimonies witness for Christianity in addition to arguing against Islam. While it's still a potentially valuable resource, the fact that it overtly ''pushes'' a rival religion is inevitably going to make people more skeptical about its objectivity.

54 Throbert McGee  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 8:47:48am

once the FFI site is fixed, that Charles should give a headline to the trial of humanity vs. Mohammud

FFI is back up now -- as explained on the main page, the problem was that their webhost temporarily shut the site down after it exceeded the monthly bandwidth allowance. Good to hear that they weren't the target of a DOS attack or something.

Here's the Muhammad On Trial link.

55 Donna V.  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 9:43:53am

Throbert McGee: regarding your comment in the thread cba linked to: Advising you on this matter is like teaching your grandma to suck eggs, but may I suggest that you get a little teeth action going there?

It is well known that Dartmouth Jew haters have no balls to speak of and winkies the size of Vienna sausages, so all it should take is a little nibble. But be sure not to wear a good shirt,...,

56 Smitty  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 10:14:14am

#55 Donna,

Now that's just about the funniest thing I've read today! LOL

57 DP  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 1:09:24pm

OT:

On the arrest of that Islamo-fascist in Gloucester. As is common now, members of the muslim community were interviewed. No one had anything much to say.

Today though, when the community was again asked for comment, they were all of one voice.

Some comments

He is a charming and harmless person.

He is completely innocent.

Islam is the religion of peace etc

It seem the rapidity of police intervention caught the imams on the hop. But they did manage to rectify the situation pretty quick.

58 DP  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 1:12:04pm

OT:

On the arrest of that Islamo-fascist in Gloucester. As is common now, members of the muslim community were interviewed. No one had anything much to say.

Today though, when the community was again asked for comment, they were all of one voice.

Some comments

He is a charming and harmless person.

He is completely innocent.

Islam is the religion of peace etc

It seem the rapidity of police intervention caught the imams on the hop. But they did manage to rectify the situation pretty quick.

59 Ben F  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 2:25:42pm

#5 J.D. sez--

Nice find, Ben F.

Thanks, but it wasn't exactly deeply hidden; I subscribe to the NYT's RSS Opinion feed, so stuff from the Op-Ed page just flows into my aggregator. As an added bonus, links from the RSS feed have a special code that causes them not to drop off into the pay archive like ordinary NYT links.

Today's newspapers are very interesting. My Washington Post has a surreal juxtaposition on the front page. Above the fold, a photo of President Bush serving turkey to the troops. Below the fold, this article on Muslim polygamy in Indonesia. The oddity, to me, is that President Bush is all up in arms to do SOMETHING at the federal level to stop state adoption of gay marriage, yet he is also doing everything in his power to show respect to a religion whose definition of marriage is, I would think, equally repugnant to Christian tradition.

60 J.D.  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 2:41:07pm

#59 Ben F.

The oddity, to me, is that President Bush is all up in arms to do SOMETHING at the federal level to stop state adoption of gay marriage, yet he is also doing everything in his power to show respect to a religion whose definition of marriage is, I would think, equally repugnant to Christian tradition.

The way I see it, GW is doing as VDH suggests:

Our leaders engaged in these perilous times would do well to ignore the hysteria, smile, and praise to the heavens the old reassuring alphabetic standbys and multilateral nomenclature — the U.N., the EU, NATO, the Arab League, Oslo, Camp David, and on and on — even as they quietly press ahead on their own in crafting a safer, better future for everyone involved.

Multilateral Mantras

It's happened over and over and over again.

61 Devon Hill  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 3:10:30pm

As a Christian, I also advocate that Charles give permalink status to the brilliant sites of [Link: www.secularislam.org...] and [Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

They are dedicated to freeing Muslims from Islam and are doing a wonderful work...

Regards to this brave chap , the only problem is that there is no such thing as liberal Islam......there are liberal Muslims in spite of Muhammed's deranged teachings but no such thing as a liberal islam..


The Wahhbies and Bin Ladins are Orthodox Muslims...that is the sad part...

Devonator

62 EE  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 4:29:52pm

The Saudi-Wahhabis should be put on notice that the eyes of the West are on Mansour al-Nogaidan. If they harm him there should be consequences.

It is known that the Wahhabi entity incubates an extreme form of Islamism, that is intolerant of other religions, and is even intolerant of other strains of Islam.

The founder of Wahhabism regarded those who deviated from his narrow interpretation as being apostates from Islam, and deserving of death.

Ibn Abd al-Wahhab regarded the practices he denounced not as mere sins and shortcomings of impoerfect believers, but as departures from the central belief in the absolute unity of Allah and the mission of His Prophet, which were tantamount to apostasy and merited the maximum penalty.


-- Saudi Arabia: The Ceaseless Quest for Security, by Nadav Safran.

Since deviation from Wahhabism = apostacy from true Islam = capital crime, here is lethal religious intolerance.

Presumably the lashings (75 lashes!) are a warning, and worse punishment is threatened if al-Nogaidan continues to speak the truth.

What does our State Department have to say about this trashing of elementary human rights?

63 Morgan  Fri, Nov 28, 2003 5:10:47pm

Another surprising opinion in a newpaper usually hostile to Jews and Israel, this time the Guardian.

"Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism

Behind much criticism of Israel is a thinly veiled hatred of Jews"

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]


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