But Islam is a Religion of Peace (tm), right?!!?

"If you read the Koran closely, it says you must fight against infidels who occupy your country," said the student, 25, who asked to be named in print as Abu Zobayer. "This is clear. There is no choice."

How long must we suffer these fools. Insh'allah, they will all be dead soon.

Maybe I'd have no complaint if these jihadis also fought against Saddam, who murdered about 300,000 muslims. But he is their champion. . .

Was that age 25 or age 5? I was just wondering, because the capability for logical thought stage doesn't seem to have kicked in yet.

Believe it or not, this is not a universally held interpretation. But it probably is near universal in Saudi Arabia, given the Wahabi (sp?) dominance. This doesn't prove that all Muslims worldwide are willing to take up arms against us. It does prove that most Saudis probably are, and the continuing fanaticism of Wahabi imams and their wealthy benefactors needs to be put under a microscope. Funny how the LLL media refuses to take this on in a big way, especially since it's probably the major weakness of the current Administration.

The well-dressed, slight-built mechanical engineering student from the University of Jordan

The alarming thing is who the jihadi terrorist is: an engineering student from supposedly one of the most moderate Arab countries. If the rot has gotten this deep, we cannot assume is hadn't gotten virtually everywhere.
Many western theorists and columnists say some regimes must go during the course of the war on terror. Seems they should at least double the number of regimes that must go. This is not a political thing. This is a cultural thing.

#5 CAM

It most definitely is not a universal interpretation. It does tend to increase the closer you get to the Gulf States, and diminish the farther away one gets.

Seems some of the nick didn't take in the previous posting.

Maybe a few car bombs outside the mosque on Friday in SA might give these a**holes something to think about. What's that about "fighting fire with fire"

#6 Reuters

Most of the hard-core jihadis are not the wretched of the earth. They are like this guy, and Mohammed Atta, from middle to upper middle class families, mulit-lingual, with educations from western colleges and universities. They represent the majority of Islam as much as Lenin represented the proletariat...

The well-dressed, slight-built mechanical engineering student from the University of Jordan said he was drawn to fight in Iraq purely by religious conviction

While not as dangerous as an organised terrorist, the uncontrolled, uncommanded zealot is a pretty awful thing to consider.

Even if his interpretation is the "correct" one, as a Jordanian, Iraq isn't his country, last time I checked a map......

5 CAM
_________

For me Jihad means warfare 80% of the time. The Paleostinians don't have enough brain cells for that elusive "inner struggle" Jihad. There have been numerous Jihads down through the centuries. The Muslim conquest of India was bloodier than ten holocausts.

As far as those Mohammedans doing that "inner struggle" thingie? They are irrelevant to today's events.

12 LibraryGryffon

Talking about countries in this part of the world isn't always very helpful. They are more like tribes or extended clans with flags that real nations.

... despite his intense dislike for Saddam Hussein's supporters.

Yeah, right. I'm sure he participated in many demonstrations against Hussein's brutal regime. The jihadi zipperheads really know how to play the media by tossing in little qualifiers like this.

Another favorite button to push is: "We really love the American people. We just hate your president, your government, your democratic institutions, your armed forces, your economic system, your culture, and your entire way of life ..."

The really sad thing is that this engineering student has probably been so successfully brainwashed that he'll throw away a chance at a life during which he might better educate himself while following the orders of a diseased mind that has zero intention of risking his its life.

Anyone notice how many of these holy high-ranking Muslims that ran Iraq died fighting the coalition? Versus how many "surrendered" to cut a deal and keep their comfortable lives?

This "engineering student" is so like the Hitler Youth and hardcore SS. So thoroughly brainwashed that they can't conceive of a world any different than what they've been brought up to believe by fanatics.

Amazing, he'll die for a cause "despite his intense dislike for Saddam Hussein's supporters." This culture is so damn backward (not dumb, just backward in its ability to think logically). It's this lack of critical thinking that has kept this gigantic segment of the world's population in darkness and misery.

CAM:

The really sad thing is that this engineering student has probably been so successfully brainwashed that he'll throw away a chance at a life during which he might better educate himself ...

Let him throw it away. Who needs this dickhead designing Chevrolet pickups?

Would someone please tell Abu Zobayer that jihad means an inner struggle for self-improvement, and that a tiny minority of extremists have perverted his religion?

How about if we shoot him, and explain the rest to his little brothers?

#17 Glen

I hear you. I just wish he was designing hospitals, apartment buildings, and other signs of civilization for his people in the Middle East.

Just as Hitler almost destroyed the people he wanted to make the dominant race on the planet, so too are these sick brainwashers squandering the lives of hundreds of thousands of their kinspeople, for nothing.

Its the Jihad and always has been whether waged in dar al-islam or here in the West. They can wage it now in the West, as we have been so nice in inviting them here.

I just cant believe the stupidity of our politicians. Did they think that a 1000 year Western policy of keeping out Muslims, was just some minor prejudice.

But sooner or later we'll have to wash these muslims, as so much lice, out of our hair.

#12:

Even if his interpretation is the "correct" one, as a Jordanian, Iraq isn't his country, last time I checked a map......

To an Islamist, all Muslims belong to the same nation -- the ummah. The names of governments mean nothing, until the re-establishment of the caliphate.

#12, #14,

his country is dar-al-islam

Photo of Iraqis celebrating killing of six Spanish intelligence agents.

True Story, I have a tax office. During the late 70's, I had been preparing the tax return for a number of years for an muslim engineering student.
After receiving his Masters in engineering, I ask him what is he going to do. Are you going work for one of the auto companies or what?
He replied, NO. I am going back to Lebenon to fight.
Never heard from him again.
Probably six feet under.
With his attitude, good riddance.

As an afterthought.
If this Jordanian survives, it wont surprise me that he will be applying to American universities for graduate studies.
I hope the security services are keeping tabs on him.

The military should treat those who celebrate over our dead and those of our allies as hostile enemies and fire away.

In his book Militant Islam Reaches America, Daniel Pipes has a chapter "Does Poverty Cause Militant Islam?".

On the level of individuals, conventional wisdom points to militant Islam attracting the poor, the alienated, and the marginal -- yet research finds precisely the opposite to be true. To the extent that economic factors explain who becomes Islamist, they tend to be fairly well off.

So the theory that militant Islam attracts the poor, the alienated, and the marginal is a popular theory, but it is contrary to the facts uncovered by research. Precisely the opposite is true.

The fact that this jihadi is a mechanical engineering student from the University of Jordan should not surprise anybody who knows that poverty does not cause militant Islam. Those most naturally drawn to militant Islam are those who tend to be fairly well off.

This guy needs to be killed. That seems plain enough.

And anyone else who feels they've lost the power of choice over whether to fight Americans or not will probably need to be killed too.

I'm assuming all muslims don't think like this guy, but maybe I'm wrong.

My notion rests on the nature of religion. The contradictions of all religions make them unable to ever be followed 'closely'.

Or if you ever follow any religion closely it always ends up killing you. Whether it's the total obliteration of the self or whether it ends up recruiting you into a war.

Follow it closely and you're dead.

#28 b
The only thing that will kill you 100% of the time is being alive.

Something has always confused me about the LLL. They take it as an article of faith that education can solve all problems, so it seems to me that at some level they must believe in the power of ideas to transform people. Yet, these same LLL seem to also take it as an article of faith that the ideas expressed in the Koran do not transform people into Jihadists. What gives?

#27 ee

Those most naturally drawn to militant Islam are those who tend to be fairly well off.

Where do you think the funding of this "religious war" aka "The war on Terror"? is coming from? SA, Syria, the PA or Iran. Or all of the above. Certainly the "the Elites" in these societies play a role.

Dear Mr. Abu Zobayer:

Please step right up and place your head between these two vertical posts and remain still for just a minute.

[Loading ancient blunderbuss with solid shot and placing against Too Stupid To Breath Fucking Muslim AssHat's forehead . . . ]

No, Mr. Zobayer, this is going to hurt me a lot more than it is going to hurt you . . .

Say "Hi" to Mohammad for me, eh?

BOOM!!!

Very Respectfully,

Sharkman

#23 Colt:

I'm wondering how AP knows these particular squats are Iraquis? Where do they get this inside information, and why are they so eager to always take it at face value?

Whose side are these bloody bastoids on, anyway???

Would like to clarify that post just a minute ago. I know there are Hussein hold-outs and Iraqui terrorists, too. It's just that the press seems to bend over backward to paint the whole bloody country as being against the liberation efforts. There is a sizeable majority that wants this to happen. The few we keep seeing in the news obscures this fact. And many of these "insurgents" are imported products.

That's what I was on about.

But to Cam, #5 it is a completely correct interpretation vis a vis the Quran and Hadiths......

Bloody hell.......it doesn't take a genius to pick up the Quran (Mein Kampf of Islam) and find all the blood curdling passages to kill .......... add the Sahih Hadiths to the mix, and you got yourself a Warrior cult.....

Islam is the problem......Truth is the Cure....

Devonator

OT: A French Canadian version of the David Kelly affair reflects the power wielded by the media: Hospital head said he was fine before apparent suicide: Quebec minister

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

Lafleur lashed out at the media, warning colleagues to be wary of journalists.

"I made a big mistake," he wrote. "I and those close to me have paid dearly. I hope you will take lessons from it for the future."

Couillard said the Health Department and the media need to examine their actions over the past week. He said health officials could have been more attentive to Lafleur's emotional condition.

In the article, it was mentioned that this guy, Abu Zobayer, was convinced to go and fight because of seeing American GI's treating Iraqis like slaves on TV.

I assume he meant satellite TV, probably the Aljazeera channel, and the images that he found offensive were probably that of GI's controlling prisoners or suspects.

Point of this comment: Watching TV destroys or narrows the intellectual capacity.

How many times after a clever or insidious crime plot on American Dumb Time TV do we hear that a copycat followed the same plot?

Up till the 1960's, propaganda for the gullible masses flowed mainly through daily newspapers, radio and to a lesser degree, movies. Most Muslims were illiterate till then, and got their 'programming' via the mullah's friday lecture.

Now, almost every dumb and dumbed-down Muslim, like this engineering student's family, has a satellite receiver tuned to their Aljazeera channel - repeatedly pushing their 'JIHAD' buttons.

Conclusion: Space weapons. Destroy any satellite broadcasting pro-jihad images or messages. Make it look like a Solar flare did it. Or, oops - a fender bender in orbit!

@29 andrew

*LMAO!

Spot on!
The leading cause of death.....

Is birth!

At least he's not getting his marching orders from Al Queda. Seems to me that if someone is *in* Iraq and actively shooting at Americans, that would be the sort who would most likely be sought out by Al Queda. The fact that he's not been makes me sort of wonder if there are any of Al Queda left to recruit these idiots or to tell them what to do once they show up. Surely unassimilated idiots will be easier to kill than idiots with a plan. (Although the idiots with a plan in Afghanistan and in Iraq have proven to be quite easy to kill, and not at all protected by the hand of Allah.)

How come all these journalists can always find jihadis to talk to? Our soldiers could use a tip or two. :P

#30,

You're thinking too clearly

Koran requires death. Football halftimes require Toby Keith.

I missed the Dallas half time while putting Thanksgiving Dinner on the table. Anyone else catch this? I heard the act was great and well recieved. He sang the both politically inocorrect "Beer for My Horses" and "Angry American"

"The Muslim conquest of India was bloodier than ten holocausts."

Funny! What about the British conquest of India?

A Jordanian jihadi in Iraq says : "If you read the Koran closely, it says you must fight against infidels who occupy your country," said the student, 25, who asked to be named in print as Abu Zobayer. "This is clear. There is no choice."

So who's occupying Jordan?

#44 Joey

So who's occupying Jordan?

You? :)

~dg

#6 Reuters'

Jordan has historically had relatively moderate rulers, but it is not a particularly moderate country if you are talking about the population.

#43 Firas,

The british do not go around white-washing what they did in India or anywhere else in the world- contrary to muslims who devote 99% of their time trying to deny their murderous past and present.

riddle me this abu zobayer a/k/a air burglar -it is written in batman comics-how many kkkorans do i have to shove up your ass to make you stop breathing?

#47 SA,

You have a point, we don't tend to concede that our existence is particularly murderous. But look at it this way.

The conquest of India by Muslims was mainly a political issue, right?
As was the conquest of India by the British, or the conquest of America by many European countries.

Would the average Christian, then, be asked to lay the blame for the incredible havoc Christians have caused in the world on their scripture?

"For me Jihad means warfare 80% of the time. The Paleostinians don't have enough brain cells for that elusive "inner struggle" Jihad. There have been numerous Jihads down through the centuries. The Muslim conquest of India was bloodier than ten holocausts."

Ok, looking at that carefully--'Paleostinians'? WTF?

#47,

...and the British conquest of India was nowhere near as bloody as the the muslim conquest of India.

e.g. (from Will Durant The Story of Civilization volume 1 pages 460...)

Mahmud of Ghazni: "...he sacked another opulent city of northern India, Somnath, killed its fifty thousand inhabitants, and draggeed its wealth to Ghazni."

Kutb-d Din Aibak: (Durant quoting from Tabakat-i-nasiri) 'fifty thousand men came under the collar of slavery, and the plain became black as pitch with Hindus'

Muhammad bin Tughlak: "He killed so many Hindus that , in the words of a Moslem historian, 'there was constantly in front of his royal pavillion and his Civil Court a mound of dead bodies and a heap of corpses, while the sweepers and executioners were wearied out by their work of dragging' the victims and and putting them to death in crowds' "

Firoz Shah: "offered a reward for every Hindu head, paid for 180,000 of them..."

Sultan Ahmad Shah: "feasted for three days whenever the number of defenseless Hindus slain in his territories in one day reached twenty thousand"

etc.

...and for more recent jihad genocide, look up Kafiristan, renamed "nurisatan", err, "nuristan", by the Afghans after they wiped out the kufr in the 1890s in the Hindu Kush.

The afghans killed, pillaged and forced many of the (pagan) kufr to convert. The area became quite staunchly muslim and is a hotbed of al-qaeda now. Their great-great-grandfathers weren't muslims.

The small remnant of those people who escaped to their kin in what was neighboring British ruled India is now persecuted in pakistani Chitral, as "kufr".

The Rudyard Kipling story and 1970s movie , "The Man Who Would be King" (historical fiction) is based on that Kafiristan, before it was obliterated by islam.

i'm not saying the inhabitants of Kafiristan were angels living in Eden. Nevertheless, jihad has never really been about "inner struggle". It has always been far more about spreading islam to unbelievers.

I've just been re-reading Sura 5 of the Qur'an. Underneath the surface meaning, it is clear that it wants the obliteration of independent and original thought, which is exactly what the West (at its best) stands for. Islam is a system of mental manacles, applied in childhood.

Am I right in saying that there was a program of denazification after the last war? Could there not be a similar program of deislamification?

# 49 Firas: The conquest of India by Muslims was mainly a political issue, right?

What do you mean 'political'??

You mean political as in 'secular'? That the Muslim invaders of India did not wage Jihad and all those massacres were secular?

Do you believe in Moral Relativism? That the Islamic Conquest of India with its bloody history is qualified and sanctified by the Conquests of British?

In this thread the Koran was compared to Mein Kampf. This may be more accurate than you even intended - if my three language translation is correct: JIHAD = STRUGGLE = KAMPF.

no one should be compared to hitler. we all believe we are doing the right thing in our lives. if we disagree so much that we must kill, then we have learned nothing from history.

# 53 Laxmi,

"Do you believe in Moral Relativism? That the Islamic Conquest of India with its bloody history is qualified and sanctified by the Conquests of British? "

No! Not at all. Let's stick to the point here. Why do you speak of the earlier conquest of India as "Muslim", but not of the British invasion as "Christian"?

My point is that they didn't scramble into India thinking, let's get our Jihad on. They went for greed and power.

Mein Kampf tries to assert that Jews are not just a religion but a group--a race--onto themselves. You guys seem to be asserting the same about Islam?

Firas (#56)

Mein Kampf tries to assert that Jews are not just a religion but a group--a race--onto themselves.

Is Judaism a Religion?

Are Jews a Race?

Is It a Culture or Ethnic Group?

The Jews Are a Nation or a People

We are not defined by Mein Kampf.

Firas (#49),

Ok, looking at that carefully--'Paleostinians'? WTF?

A diminutive word play on the Paleolithic era or "Stone-Age"

# 57 zulubaby

I didn't check out the links but I assume they're refuting the argument that Jews are a race, right? I totally agree that it's a disgraceful claim to make. My point was that the claim is being made about Muslims now.

1. Jihad is defined in Islam, and since:
2. Muslims screwed things up, then:
3. Muslims are violent.

See what I mean?
# 58

Yeah, I got it :) I just think it's childish.

And while people are still paying attention to this thread, does anyone know *why* terrorists seem to be middle-class, educated people with non-radical family backgrounds? I think it's true of the IRA and communists South-East Asia as well. It's puzzling.

56 firas

Muslim invasion of India was motivated by looting infidels of their wealth; nothing different from other invaders. But there was more to it then just loot and pillage. This is readily evidenced by the fact that after looting temples, muslim invaders razed them to the ground. All statues of Hindu gods were smashed after the jewels had been removed.

The muslim scribes of that era describe this with great relish. The massacres of a defeated population, Hindu women and children taken as booty, is also treated by the same scribes, with relish and satisfaction.

It is hard for us now to imagine the depravity of Islam in India. Even the holocaust does not compare.

As for the British intervention in India, I for one regard it as an event that saved India from complete islamisation. At the time, though the Mughal empire was in a state of decay, the emperors, Aurangzeb in particular, was busy in massacring Hindus wherever he could find them.

No matter what one may say about the British, their intervention in India, stopped the ongoing genocide of Hindus and the destruction of their culture.

Firas (#59)

I didn't check out the links but I assume they're refuting the argument that Jews are a race, right?

Read the links, it's more complicated than that.

My point was that the claim is being made about Muslims now.

Muslims aren't a race though. I must have missed something.

#56, Firas,

You wrote:
"...race--onto themselves. You guys seem to be asserting the same about Islam? "

No. You're setting up a straw man argument there. You seem to be the one who is associating religions with races, by bringing it up.

The British in India did not massacre anywhere near on the scale of the atrocities perpetrated and celebrated in the name of islam. They did not force millions to convert to their religion (Christian population in India is far smaller than muslim). And they withdrew, leaving the independent countries of pakistan and India.

Perchance, since you seem to be attempting to give islam a moderate face, could you please leave some links to books or websites where islamic clerics with religious stature, instruct their own constituencies to be tolerant, moderate, and accepting of non-muslims as people with equal rights in all spheres of life? Please share. The imams of Mecca, Medina, Sana'a, Cairo... are drowning that message out.

#60 Firas,

You're right. Many terrorists are from middle class or well-off backgrounds.

Daniel Pipes pointed it out, for example, here:

[Link: www.aijac.org.au...]

Pipes also includes a quote from Martin Kramer discussing militant islam: "the vehicle of counter-elites, people who, by virtue of education and/or income, are potential members of the elite, but who for some reason or another get excluded. Their education may lack some crucial prestige-conferring element; the sources of their wealth may be a bit tainted. Or they may just come from the wrong background. So while they are educated and wealthy, they have a grievance: their ambition is blocked, they cannot translate their socio-economic assets into political clout. Islamism is particularly useful to these people, in part because by its careful manipulation, it is possible to recruit a following among the poor, who make valuable foot-soldiers. "

My take is that terrorists are often disaffected ideologues, who want to be more important than they would otherwise be. I.e. its ego, coupled with psychological pathology.

Why did a Jordanian go to wage jihad in Iraq? Iraq is not his country, is it?

The outstanding theoretician of modern militant jihad Islamism was Sayyid Qutb. According to Qutb

A Muslim has no country except that part of the earth where the Shari'ah of God is established and human relationships are based on the foundation of relationship with God; a Muslim has no nationality except his belief, which makes him a member of the Muslim community in Dar-ul-Islam; a Muslim has no relatives except those who share the belief in God, and thus a bond is established between him and other Believers through their relationship with God.

-- quoted by Robert Spencer in Onward Muslim Soldiers.

Daniel Pipes, in Militant Islam Reaches America, notes Qutb's influence: "The Egyptian Sayyid Qutb went to the United States in 1948 as an admirer of things American, only to 'return' to Islam during his two years resident there, becoming one of the most influential Islamist thinkers of our time."

Kenneth Timmerman, in his book Preachers of Hate notes that Qutb is "Widely recognized throughout the Arab and Islamic world as the most important scholar of his generation, Qutb is credited with having spearheaded an Islamic revival that began in the late 1950s and that today has replaced Arab nationalism as the predominant political force in the region."

Timmerman wrote: "Upon his [Qutb's] return to Cairo in 1951 [from a visit to the US], he jointed the Muslim Brotherhood and became the editor of their official journal, Al-Ikhwan al-Muslimum. At first, Gamal Abdel Nasser, who seized power in Egypt in 1952, admired his works and offered him a cabinet position. But Qutb refused and criticized Nasser for putting national interests above the interests of Islam, a stance that landed him in jail and ultimately led to his execution by Nasser in 1966. It was from jail that he wrote his most influential works."

So if I have this right, the influential theory man in modern militant jihadist Islamism is Sayyid Qutb. And an Islamist who is a follower of Qutb really does not have any nationality.

BTW, it would do no good to insist to a follower of Qutb that the US and the coalition forces are in Iraq to do some good there and get out. Doesn't matter at all. To Qutb, the basic provocation of an infidel is that he or she is an infidel. That is reason enough to wage jihad.

The infidel forces in Iraq provide an opportunity for some killing on behalf of Allah -- some jihad. Doesn't matter at all to followers of Qutb why the coalition forces are there and the good that they intend to do.

And (contrary to the thinking of some folks in the State Department) it doesn't matter at all what is happening on the Arab-Israeli front. If there are infidels that are targets of opportunity in Iraq, then the jihadist followers of Qutb have an opportunity for jihad -- the reason for jihad always exists as long as there are infidels in this world. It's only the opportunity for jihad that changes.

EE,

Good analysis in #66.

i bought a copy of qutb's book, Milestones, at a booksale and read part of it, but its convoluted logic and arrogant tone made me stop. Maybe I'll try again another time. heh

in his 4th chapter, qutb defines jihaad for the reader as:

"Literally 'striving'. This Arabic word denotes any form of activity, either personal or community-wide, of Muslims in attempting to strive for the cause of God and for the sake of Islam." and "Jihaad in Islam is simply a name for striving to make this system of life [islam] dominant in the world"

"If you read the Koran closely, it says you must fight against infidels who occupy your country," said the student, 25, who asked to be named in print as Abu Zobayer. "This is clear. There is no choice."

Yes what more evidence does the An gof militia need to start our legitimate resistance against Islamobots who occupy Albion.......

infidels who occupy your country

Isn't Jordan HIS country?