Like HELL that is a toy gun. AK-47 extended scope if I ever saw one!

Wait, that may not be a AK. Something else, 7.62mm sniper rifle based off the AK, let me look it up.

If that gun was real could a kid that small hold it up with one hand so easily?

I sent this pic that zulubaby linked over to some buds at J-SOC on Fort Bragg, as well as showing it to my neighbor who works in a "weird" place on Bragg, as well as my CATM associates. It's no toy. BTW, I had one of these in my truck during DS-1. Not one of the people I showed it to thought it was a toy.

OT Yo Guys and Gals

Before this disappears off of Yahoo, you HAVE to see this pic! Another clueless AP Photographer, or what???

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

I think that it is a VSS Vintorez, a 9mm special ops sniper rifle.

#6 Darleen

The adolescent who took that picture has got to be so proud of himself. And we thought the DU loonies didn't have jobs.

That sniper rifle fires a subsonic 9mm round, meaning it makes very little noise when fired. Perfect for assassination.

why dont they get that poor kids some braces on his teeth than the feshtunkanah gun?

#4 noob
It's a REAL gun...it may even take off by itself and find some Arab kids or Jooos to shoot. Don't you know GUNS kill people.
Here in the US of A...the damn things have such a mind of their own that the LLL is always trying to look out for the little people by passing ever stringent GUN LAWS.
Ever heard of GUN LAWS?
Maybe our dear caring LLL's should depart immediately to Gaza
to teach these poor people that GUNS may kill them.
Wanna volunteer? I'm sure we can take up a collection and pay your one way fare to Gaza.
Saint Pancake made a difference...maybe you can, too.

7.62-mm SVD

No wait, That is an AK-47. I looked at the rifle butt, and thought VSS, but the clip and barrel show it to be a modified AK-47, with scope and extended barrel to make it into a sniper rifle.

Looks like a Russian Dragunov, but I'm not a true gun expert.

Thats NOT a vintorez. Its got a regular 7.62 (russian) ammo clip, and it looks completely different :-D
This is basically a paratrooper sniperish Ak 47

Not a SVD, the barrel is wrong. And the clip is that for a AK-47, or AKM.

"Limp" Dick Gephardt?

Well, somebody had to say it!

#3 NOOB

Sure he can. These beasts are purpose bred for carrying fire power.

Think you are right Aleksandr. That is such an odd design, so uncommon there is no conceivable way that it is a fake.

re # 11, you might be right, but in the photo the weapon most definitely has an ak-47 "banana" clip as opposed to "rectangular" clips pictured next to Dragunov SVD.

#5 Darleen 12/1/2003 07:01PM PST

"OT Yo Guys and Gals

Before this disappears off of Yahoo, you HAVE to see this pic! "

While you're there, click 5 times to see:

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean (news - web sites) laughs after seeing a student wearing a Bush-Cheney campaign T-shirt behind him during a taping of 'Hardball,' with host Chris Matthews, Monday, Dec. 1, 2003, at Harvard University's Institute of Politics in Cambridge, Mass. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

Free publicity - how can it hurt Bush-Cheney?

As I said on the other thread, the only thing that makes me think that the gun may not be real is the way the kid is carrying it. Then again, I don't know too much about guns so I'll leave it to the experts.

Thanks for the hat tip, Charles :-)

Like my AK or any others...it's much lighter when unloaded.
30 rounds of 7.62x39mm adds a wee bit of weight.

#2 FH 12/1/2003 06:59PM PST

Wait, that may not be a AK. Something else, 7.62mm sniper rifle based off the AK, let me look it up.

Dragunov is what you are thinking of(?)

That isn't a cheap, mass produced AK, and certainly not a toy.

That looks like a Dragunov sniper rifle to me. It even has a bipod.

The owner of that rifle isn't using it for "home defense", that's for sure.

Check out the threads on "Mighty Joe Young" on the right side of the pic.
He didn't buy that suit at a discount warehouse.
Prolly bought it with UNWRA money.
MoFu!

re 18
Yes sure as hell seems like a very specialised weapon. Toys are made to resemble very popular weapons, and this one aint it

( head shaking) you boys and your guns,, i was in theIDF for two years, and i still cant tell if that thing is real or not,,
my shooting skiils on the uzi, the m- 16, and the galil are not the stuff army legends are made up of( well maybe for really really bad shooting) luckily i was a graphic designer in the IDF, and weilded a feirce rapidograph.
Just seeing that little kid with a gun real, or not , is disturbing ,,, horrible really..

#19 Aleksandr of New York
The SVD will accept the standard AK magazine.

re 28
fair enough, but but but, the barrel does look slightly different in the two photos ;-P

16 Evariste's Zaide

aaaaaarghh

Hey, at least he has his finger outside the trigger guard.

Photo tweaked
Still looking like a Dragunov to me, with attached bipod (folded), and 40rd AK-style magazine.
And the weight is something like 10lbs / 4+ kilos

anyway it still seems to me like this is "just" a paratrooper AK with an extended barrel, scope, and a bipod (come to think of it this is ,technically, pretty much what a Dragunov is)

Assuming it is a toy gun (which I don't think it is) is it any wonder so many Pali kids get shot touting that toy around? What kind of abusive parent put a toy like that in the hands of child in a war zone where lots of people whoot first and ask questions later?

OT Yo Guys and Gals-Priceless. Absolutely priceless. I laughed so hard it hurt.

re 32, i
f you pay attention to the handguard, you should notice that the jordyptian one is the ak47 handguard, which is different from reaganite dragunov link.

25 Evariste's Zaide 12/1/2003 07:16PM PST

"Check out the threads on "Mighty Joe Young" on the right side of the pic. He didn't buy that suit at a discount warehouse. Prolly bought it with UNWRA money."

For shame! How can you be so insensitive"?" That is clearly a "cardboard" "mock-up" of a suit that he is holding in front of him as he marches. It can't possibly be a "real" suit because it would be too "heavy" to support before him on an extended "march. "

Besides, for all we know that is the family "pre-funeral" sploder suit, which all of his Shaheedi brothers wore (briefly) before him!

Oops! There I was, joking right along, when reality smacked me in the belly like a sturgeon.

#29 Aleksandr of New York
I asked people in the know, because I had my own experience with it in DS-1. I took the rifle out of the window after 3rd group SF killed the guy. The same people still say the picture zulubaby linked is not a toy.

whoot, whoot! I got censored!

The barrel appears different than the SVD though. Could be either. Whatever it is, it isn't a toy. Its a sniper rifle. For picking off people from long distance. Not a weapon with defense in mind.

re 37
oh, i am not disputing that it is not a toy.
It just doesnt seem like a typical dragunov, due to a standard AK handguard.

Lizzy,
zing me an e-mail.
I have something that will warm your heart cockles.

#32 Rayra the Aviation and Military HW Wonk 12/1/2003 07:22PM

It's a 30 round clip. I know, I own 3.

And I agree with you. It's a Dragunov. A very nice one at that, with all the bells and whistles, including a flash supressor.

But what I find interesting is that the photographers and reporters in contact with those elements feel the need to soft peddle what they see.

If you have to soft peddle, and outright lie at times, shouldn't you reconsider your ideology and views?

#32 Rayra

I agree. It's a Dragunov, with an AK-style magazine and a better scope than the original PSO-1

There goes "Comic Formerly" stirring up another controversy!

Feh!

Zaide (#16)

You're right, somebody did have to say it and I'm glad it didn't have to be me. Perhaps he should think about taking a couple of these.

Ok, seems like everyone is convinced its a dragunov.
But how come it has a regular ak handgrip? Do some dragunovs come like that?

Upon further review...I really think it's the new Mattell Mujhadeen Action Super Squirter with Scope and Folding Bipod.
Get yours soon before they are sold out for the holidays.

Isn't a thirty round clip on a sniper rifle a little much?

#44
Yes, but sturgeon don't chew the cud.

Looks real to me.

Reaganite and others: Your knowledge of weapons detail never ceases to amaze me. Thanks.

I can contribute to this is that tie on the guy on right really doesn't work with that suit. Oh, and parading kids around like this is sick.

re 48
depends what you use it for. If its to surgically assasinate a jihadi, its too much. if its to spray jewish civilians with automatic fire, its perfect.

35 Aleksandr of New York 12/1/2003 07:24PM PST

I believe the handgaurds are customizable, and are not standard. You have plastic handgaurds and wooden handgaurds, with slightly different styles, but basically the same shape. But they receiver is always standard, so that is your first clue.

With my own AK, I have the option of several different handgaurds. I choose a synthetic one over wood, and it has a more streamlined profile. But they are adapted to fit a standard AK receiver.

Oh yeah, it's soooo important to have lightening holes in the stock of a plastic toy. It's also way too big, IMHO. If you were making toys for kids aged say 8-13, why make 'em too big for your market?

I'd love to see this Kevin Frayer called upon to explain how he verified the gun was a toy. Won't be holding my breath though.

#40 Aleksandr of New York

It just doesn't seem like a typical dragunov, due to a standard AK handguard.

It took NATO almost a decade to decide that there was more than one variant of the AK-47.

I have a vivid memory of the rifle in the picture. We were going through a certain place, my team-mate asked what "the chalk marks on the pavement" meant. I looked around and our security detail was gone. Needless to say, I found a wall to hide behind.

That rifle holds a special place in my memory.

I think everyone's just getting a bit too carried away. After all, they just celebrated the end of Ramabomb. When Americans were out starting the shopping, the devotees to the religion of peace were counting up the bodies from Ramabomb.

Kaboom!

re 52
in that case, it seems like a dragunov ;-)

46 Aleksandr of New York 12/1/2003 07:32PM PST

Ok, seems like everyone is convinced its a dragunov.

It's not an AK grip. Notice the grip is part of the stock, rather than a more common AK pistol grip.

42 neo_con 12/1/2003 07:29PM PST

"... But what I find interesting is that the photographers and reporters in contact with those elements feel the need to soft peddle what they see.

If you have to soft peddle, and outright lie at times, shouldn't you reconsider your ideology and views? "

Is it possible that

a) The caption editor was nowhere near the ME, and wrote out of blixful ignorance?

b) The writer/photog person/team is shooting from far enough away that they don't realize the little tyke could shoot back?

c) The w/p p/t has no clue, even close up? (Hey, they make metal toy guns for American Cowboy kids, right?)

d) The w/p p/t know very well what it is, but they've been censored--er, instructed on what to write, and they realize ex-ACT-ly what that little tyke (et al) can shoot?

#38 LGF Fan

Who censored you?

changing my opinion, #35 Aleksander's post about the foreguard is spot-on. Have to go ask an armorer if the Dragunov stock, bbl, ets is interchaneable - I don' think the bbl would be, pretty sure the gas port in the bbl is in a different location... (shrug).
...and isn't the Dragunov 7.62x54mm, vs the AK47 being 7.62x39mm

Not to be "mean," but I think the Trojan Horse reporter meant to say that the lil bastard's tard teeth were fake. Take a look at the photo again. The gun looks real, the goober teeth aren't.

As a pretend retard, I'm an expert on 'tard teeth!

56 Aleksandr of New York 12/1/2003 07:35PM PST

It's fun talking about guns ;-)

Looks like an 7.62x39mm RPK. Definately not a 7.62x54r Draganov.

Drifting starboard of topic, again:

"#49 Evariste's Zaide 12/1/2003 07:33PM PST

#44
Yes, but sturgeon don't chew the cud. "

Heh! Rabbits DO chew the cud. But you may not want to know the details. (They have to bend double to fish it out....)

Not kosher, not at all!

#48 Engineer 12/1/2003 07:32PM PST
Isn't a thirty round clip on a sniper rifle a little much?

[bad joke about there being 'lots of Jooos in the neighborhood' briefly considered]
/Gallows Humor

#50 Ms. Andi 12/1/2003 07:33PM PST
...I can contribute to this is that tie on the guy on right really doesn't work with that suit. ...

lol. you left off 'contributing humor'

#61 Cooper 12/1/2003 07:38PM PST

"... tard teeth were fake."

They do project pretty far, don't they? I suppose his own could have been knocked out during, say, weapons training class - firing something with more kick than he could control. Oversized falsies would reshape the upper jaw contour.

He still shouldn't be carrying like that in a war zone.

Except he's already old enough to be thrown on the front line....

#65 Rayra of the long naame

Ok, you asked for it. What I typed first was "Isn't a thirty round clip on a sniper rifle overkill."

Draganov's were Spetsnaz issue, no? Isn't this kind of like walking around with a Barrett .50?

Where'd this yo-yo get one?

#64
Rabbits I know. Used to raise 'em for a living.

Rabbits don't technically do what they appear to be doing when they're doing that. And only once every twenty-four hours, usually upon awakening.
What they are noshing on is a "night pellet" not fecal matter. It's almost pure vitamin B manufactured in the hind gut by a symbiote. It needs to ingest this to live. Deprived of this substance a rabbit will "starve" to death with a belly full of food.
Despite this well documented fact, some diehards persist in maligning the rabbit by labelling it a corprophage.
Besides, it doesn't split the hoof.
Aren't you sorry you brought that up?

And here's how the infidels dress up their children. Lileks we love you.

A toy gun—with a marksman's buttstock, bipod, banana clip and scope. A very expensive "toy". Yes, guns are bad except for Palestinians. Guns and children don't mix—except for Palestinians. Amazing ignorance in that caption. Even I can see it's not true, and I'm no expert.

ok, JP5 has a match for the handguard and long bbl with the 'RPK', but doesn't resolve the Dragunov-style stock / grip issue...

ok, now I'm thinking 'Poor Terrorist's version of a Dragunov', using an RPK in 7.62x39, and putting a Dragunov stock on it.

#67 Engineer

Isn't a thirty round clip on a sniper rifle overkill.

With Balestinian shooting skills, not at all.

Hey, do we send the kid to that Jewish orthodontist to have his teeth fixed, or do we buy him a Dragunov sniper rifle to shoot the Jewish orthodontist with? Wow, for a Paleostinian, that's a real no-brainer! And I do mean, no brainer!

#67, no hu-hu, just making a really bad joke / observation about any Palestinian considering 'too many' rounds as a Bad Thing.

#65 Raya (with the long name)

;)

Oooopss, I meant "Rayra"

#75 Rayra etc:

"#67, no hu-hu,"

Would you be a Robert A. Heinlein reader, by any chance? Moon is a Harsh Mistress, maybe?

Damn, where can I get one of those "toys"? Always wanted something that realistic, though I'm not overly keen on them Soviet guns. Got anything in a G36 or M-14?

#20 The Comic Formerly Known as LightTower

Perfect opportunity for a "I'm with stupid!" Photoshop job on that shirt. Any enterprising LGFers here tonight?

I'm with stupid!

I don't know guns but:

1. the kids gun takes a shorter cartridge than the dragunov shown in the link #11reaganite gave.

2. between the trigger guard and the clip of the dragunov there is a space of a couple of inches, while the kids gun has the clip right after the trigger guard.

#79 Targetpractice:

King of the Who?

81 RonG 12/1/2003 08:21PM PST

I don't know guns but:

You may not know guns, but you changed my mind.

Also look at how long the receiver is in Reaganite's link. It's almost twice as long as the boy's gun.

It's not a dragunov. I don't know what it is anymore. It just looks like a regular AK with modified stock and barrel, and a few bells and whistles added to it after trade.

#81 RonG

OK, you convinced me. Rayra (#74) is probably right:

ok, now I'm thinking 'Poor Terrorist's version of a Dragunov', using an RPK in 7.62x39, and putting a Dragunov stock on it.

Veering *wildly* OT

"#69 Evariste's Zaide 12/1/2003 07:57PM PST

#64
Rabbits I know. Used to raise 'em for a living.

Rabbits don't technically do what they appear to be doing when they're doing that.... "

Ah, but that's the *point*! This is, effectively, a *cud* rather than a "fertilizer" bunny bean. The vitamin- (and enzyme-) rich "cud" passes through the entire body and exits before being consumed. Kosher cud chewers just *erp* the cud from stomach to jaw, stomach to jaw.... See, no parasite-riddled large intestine involved. 8^{

I raised rabbits *and* cavies, nyaaa-nyaaaa! ;^)

Just buried my last French Lop house-bun retiree - almost 7 years out of a 5-year lifespan. Looked like he had a stroke in his sleep, that big, sweet boy. (Made me "lots" of A-1 fertilizer pellets in his time.)

Cavies (guinea pigs) pop a pellet every few rounds, rather like tracers. [ Ammo! CLOSE to Topic! ]

Anyway, cavy "cud" works even more like cow cud than rabbit pills do. That's why I couldn't keep one alive very long after a newbie vet amputated the hind leg I asked to have splinted....

"Besides, it doesn't split the hoof.
Aren't you sorry you brought that up? "

Nu, I'll "split the difference" with ya!

;^D

Looking at a pic of the Dragunov in Brassey's Infantry Weapons, there is definate space between the trigger guard and the magazine, while the piece the little tyke is carrying has the trigger guard right up against the magazine, like an AK or AKM action. The Dragunov SVD also fired a different 7.62 round than the AK's 39mm cartridge, the SVD used an old M1908 rimmed cartridge. I'm going with Bucky's toy being a workshop customized AK or AKM as my considered opinion (guess).

#82 andthenblammo!:

It's a poke at "Arthur, King of the Britons" or the British. Decided on the idea after the slew of "Holy hand grenade" jokes a couple days back.

#87 Targetpractice:

Ahem:

"I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"

"King of the Who?"

'The Britons!"

"Well, who are the Britons?"

"We all are! And I am your King!"

" I don't remember electing any King!"

etc etc etc

#85
Cavies is Guinea pigs?
I did not know that & had wondered about it.

How many rabbits did you have?
At one time, I had over 1200 under one roof, counting breeding does & fryers-to-be.
10 of them were very, very happy bucks.
The only lop I ever had was given to me by a disgruntled owner. The momzer was HUGE but very gentle & loved being (uggghhh!) carried. Supposedly, he was a cross with a giant something or other. He finally developed sore hocks & I had to kill the poor old bugger.

Evariste's Zaide #69 - "Rabbits I know. Used to raise 'em for a living."

Pets or meat?

OT - saw on Blackfive; Campbell's® and NFL™ Tackling Hunger™ campaign:
[Link: www.chunky.com...]

#88 andthenblammo!:

Ack! I am definently outta wack right now. Guess getting five hours sleep in 48 hours will do that to ya.

Jeebus, are those his teeth or is he carrying the tripod for that thing in his mouth?!

I agree that the basic weapon is an AK.

Now, how *custom* is the customizing? How much reworking of parts might an Islamist do? That is, how practical would it be to physically adjust somewhat dissimilar parts to make them fit together. Between the capabilities of a handheld file and a skilled gunsmith, a Third-World culture should be able to cobble together some unusual working pieces.

Anybody have any war stories to share? (Besides Reaganite's #54 - concise gem!)

Rayra's probably right. Another guess. The 5.54 mm version of the SVD. The barrel is just looks too light for a 7.62 mm round.

One thing for sure, the rifle in the picture is not an SVD. There is no way the pictured magazine could hold a 7.62 x54R round (unlike the AK47 and RPK which both fire the 7.62 x39 carbine round). Plus the flange on the 54R round would require more of a curve in the banana clip.

48 Engineer

"Isn't a thirty round clip on a sniper rifle a little much?"

Not considering the Pals' habits. One or two rounds at the target and then empty the rest of teh clip into the air to celebrate.

Here we go.

Not the exact model, but, cosmetically at least, very similar.

7.62X39, long barrel, and stocks can always be swapped. More likely, someone is manufacturing the rifle in the other picture.

Who?

Who knows? It is only a slight exaggeration to say that AK-47s are made in half of the countries in the world.

I'm really going to bed now :-)

#96 Iron Fist:

Admit it, you were tempted to click the "Add to Cart" button, just to see what happened! I know I had to fight the urge off with vigor.

" #85 Cavies is Guinea pigs?
I did not know that & had wondered about it.

How many rabbits did you have?
At one time, I had over 1200 under one roof, counting breeding does & fryers-to-be."

(Agonizing guilt over the bandwidth!)

When cavies weighed 1500+ pounds (700 kg), they served as the cattle of South America - only no hooves. 8^D

I hear the North American pets are tasteless, but the South American "kitchen cavies" still taste like chicken! 8^{

I was mostly raising fancy cavies (lots of long hair to groom) and fancy runt chickens. ;^} Most of my buns were rescues, and their progeny few.

Worked for a pet bunny breeder with over 500 working does - lots of angoras, fuzzy lops, woolies, etc. (Luvs to groom them fuzzy bunnies. Luvs to breathe they fuzzy hind feet--er, fur....)

Between the wild chows and the wilder druggies, I had to ditch the rural program and bug out. The day they knew I'd cleared out the dogs, one "neighbor" stole the windows and interior wood trim. Before I cleared out the dogs, the pack tried other stuff - guns, knives, machetes (vet fixed a split skull, and the guy didn't even snore - *great* vet). (Heck of a smart pack of chows, huh?) Judicial system was not up the the vet's quality....

My money's on it being an RPK fitted with a dragunov style stock & some sort of funky bipod.

#78 andthenblammo! 12/1/2003 08:11PM PST

#75 Rayra etc:

"#67, no hu-hu,"

Would you be a Robert A. Heinlein reader, by any chance? Moon is a Harsh Mistress, maybe?

why whatever made you think that? ;) A Bolshoi book, cobber.
(and no Heinlein fan should go without the Heinlein Concordance.
Even though his works were Straightforward in the Beginning, Warning of the Reds in the Middle, and On the Social Frontiers at the End, he deservedly holds a place in the Pantheon of Sci Fi.
I've said before here at the LGF - I volunteer for the H&MP position at LGF University.

oh, and 'LGF - the site that fact-checks your AK'

I think it's an airsoft.

Or that is one strong kid.

#101 David
When I was 11 years old on our old farm, I was lugging around 100lb sacks of feed for chores.
We had just bought the farm, and I was considered a weak city boy by the neighbour kids.

The kid doesn't need to be that strong.

Israeli incitement

WHATEVER the exact type (and I don't know enough about weapons to say wheather it is a "real" sniper rifle or not) I think we can all agree that this child is carrying a real weapon.

What do we learn from this?

1. The Palestinians are using child soldiers. That child, and EVERY palestinian child similarily equipped, is an illegal enemy combatant and needs to be treated as such.

2. No one in the photograph (or in the many similar photos I have seen) appears to be upset about the armed child. I think we can safely assume the palestinian people approve (or at least do not object) to the use of their children as soldiers.

3. The use of child soldiers also implies popular approval. It would be hard for the palestinian armed forces to operate without the support of the palestinian people, and I doubt that support would be forthcoming if the PLO et al were using child soldiers against the will of the palestinian people.

www.unconventional-airsoft.com...]>

Just take a look at that site and then tell me that it is a real gun.

Airsoft SVD

Its a SVD or someones copy of it. The stock,barrel, and muzzle break give it away. I think Egypt makes a copy of the SVD

Handguard and Mag are AK. Maybe it is an airsoft.

It sure looks like a toy to me...

Customizing an Airsoft! Who'd have thunk it?

Who'd even have *done* it?

Whatever it is, it's enough to get the kid killed if he points it at the wrong person.

looks like a good replica of a Dragunov (sp?) or some other east block sniper rifle. I think that the kid would have to be a young Arnie to hold up the real thing like that.

Not that this detracts from the utter depravity of deliberately giving children mock-weapons in the middle of a shooting gallery. Hell, from a purely utilitarian standpoint, they'd be better off with the real thing so that they'd have poweder residue on their paws when the IDF blows them away.

103 Israel incites, too 12/1/2003 10:13PM PST

Israeli incitement

Hey, everyone, follow that link! It is hys-TER-ically funny!

That is the most *pitifuLLL* attempt ever at propaganda!

Since when does a tourist trip match armed forces training and underage combat experience - not to mention suicide brainwashing?

I could take a picture of a baby sitting on top of a car and call it a proof of "underage driving."

Baby with wooden spoon and old pot - juvenile cooking!

Toddler with puppy - child dog fights.

I needed that LOL tonight!

#103 Israel incites, too 12/1/2003 10:13PM PST
Israeli incitement

Run along back to Indymedia, little equivocating sadass. You can do your little ID line as post subject line gig there, and continue lying to yourself that those two pics are somehow the equivalent of the child training camps, brainwashing about the practice of Shaheed, the near DAILY exhortations to 'kill joos' that the Palis spew forth, the terror-gang headbands, 'graduation' ceremonies, ceremonial flag-burning and marching-over, and the real incitement that you'll find at the Pali Child-Abuse Slide Show. You'll find all the real incitement you can care to see - just click once and sit back. I dare you, and I dare you to be troll enough and comment afterward, too.

I wish there was a picture of the Bolivian soldier who shot and killed Che so i could put his face on a flag.

#115 isayalotofthings 12/1/2003 10:48PM PST
I wish there was a picture of the Bolivian soldier who shot and killed Che so i could put his face on a flag.

Would you settle for a Dead-Che image instead?

Ladys and gentlemen, we have been graced by the visit of a true schmuck tonight. May it be as fast in its goings as the truck will hit it if there is any justice in this world.

It is a toy. Chill out.

10 years of playing army and 27 years of doing Army have given me a wee bit of experience in this field.

The ridiculously large magzine made me suspicious; the non-functional gas system [It is set to far back to work] was readily apparent to the experienced eye, but the dead give-away is the proportions of the pistol grip & the stock length. This piece is sized for a child's hands and arms, not an adult's.

Besides, a small child would be hard pressed to hold up an actual sniper rifle like the Dragonov: they are made with heavier barrels for stability.

BTW, I actually envy children in other coutries that can still get realistic-looking guns to play with. All of my childhood favorites from 45 years ago have vanished from the American scene. Ah well, I must be content with real ones.

Oldfan, Balls.

"The ridiculously large magzine made me suspicious; "
30- and 40-rd AK mags ARE 'ridiculously large' - your point is lame.

"the non-functional gas system [It is set to far back to work] was readily apparent to the experienced eye, "
Wrong-o. Take a condescending-minute and compare it to the gas system on the already mentioned AK and RPK variants - it's the same length, in the same place.

"but the dead give-away is the proportions of the pistol grip & the stock length. This piece is sized for a child's hands and arms, not an adult's. "
More nonsense. I'm 6' tall. My SKS is 'child-sized' by comparison, as is its 'Length-of-Pull' - so much so that I had to get a longer replacement stock for it.
Please quiet yourself and go take a look at the comparative grip shapes of the Dragunov stock/grip shape, and consider that the weapon pictured is certanly close to the child's own height - hardly 'sized for a child'.
Go take a look at the enhanced version of the photo I posted earlier in this thread, and consider again.

103 Israel incites, too 12/1/2003 10:13PM PST

Those are pretty lame examples of "Israeli incitement". They look like kids who showed up to see uncle Dori off on his way to enlist in the IDF. Observe how the children inspect the machine gun, for example, as if they were inspecting an exhibit. They've obviously never been that close to a machine gun before. And why should they have? They're children after all, in a civilized culture.

Here's some more Horrible Incitement for that equivocating dipshit in #103.
Please Save The Children.
'Come witness the Incitement inherent in the system!'

And left out of my rudeness to Oldfan - a Dragunov is 10lbs. A whopping 10 pounds. The weight issue was covered a bit earlier in the thread.

"And why should they have? They're children after all,
in a civilized culture."

Look at what the civilized culture turns these kids into:
"I Punched an Arab in the Face"

All the hubbub about Palestinian incitement misses the point: the behavior of Israelis towards Palestinians is enough to incite them to violence. Children don't need textbooks or the PA to tell them to hate Israelis-- how would you react to what's described in the following link? Look at the one about the Kach summer camp teaching 14-year olds how to become hilltop youth. What would you do if someone stole your land?

Israeli human rights abuses

Sorry for the repost. This link didn't post properly before:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

"I Punched an Arab in the Face."

oh and don't forget the root of all the Israeli incitement, daring to exist. Thats the biggest crime according to the PA and other muslims worlwide.

Please FOAD.

#123 Israeli Incites

What would you do if someone stole your land?

Good question. I'd do exactly what the Israelis are doing to the people who forced them from their land centuries ago and refuse them the right to live there now. Fight for every inch and never give in to the demands of terrorist scum like the ones you support.

The Palestinians didn't force the Jews out of Palestine centuries ago; that was the Romans.

#127

Got ya.

So you admit the Jews were originally from the area later known as Palestine, and hold original claim to the land. The arabs who lived there in later years merely occupied the land the Jews were forced to leave and to this day, deny the Jewish right of return.

The land that makes up present day Israel was either purchased from the squatters under the British mandate, or lost by the Arabs during their numerous invasions of Israeli territories. IT DOES NOT BELONG TO THE PALESTINIANS.

I've seen all those pictures before. My point was not to justify Palestinian incitement. Just to point out there is hypocrisy in only paying attention to Palestinian incitement. And wishful thinking if you believe it happens in a vacuum, that they only hate Jews because Islam or the PA tells them to.

Most Palestinians only encounter Jews as security forces who frequently treat them like shit. Occupation and colonization would make you hate the occupier, too, wouldn't it?

It is not like I'm alone in thinking this; four former Shabak heads and Ya'alon have all said the occupation is coming back to bite Israel in the ass in the form of terrorism. So this is not exactly a radical position, is it?!

Who the Palestinians are has never been definitively answered in my opinion. Unfortunately the issue is so loaded with politics it clouds serious anthropological scholarship.

Israeli studies have revealed that Palestinians and Israelis and genetically very close. It would be a great irony if some of the Palestinians were Jewish converts to Islam. History is full of hidden Jews who forgot their roots. Look at the Sephardic Jews of Sante Fe, for example, who have been rediscovering their heritage in the last two decades.

For the record, I fully support the right of Israelis to live inside the '67 borders.

#116, Good enought for me :)

All the hubbub about Palestinian incitement misses the point: the behavior of Israelis towards Palestinians is enough to incite them to violence.

And Bin Laden and crew were completely justified in flying airliners filled with people into buildings filled with 50,000 people on Sept 11th?  Is this your position?

Think about the absurdity of what you are saying.  Nothing -- nothing -- justifies detonating nail-laden bombs in crowded restaurants, crowded commuter busses, and wedding parties.  Nothing.

If the Arabs were so "oppressed," then they should be willing to negotiate for peace.  They are not.  See Camp David 2000 for the most recent example, when Clinton, Barak, and Arafat met for days.  The Israelis made several offers, Arafat provided zero counter-offers, and walked away from a state for his people.

However, as an American, the above facts are beside the point -- Arafat had American diplomats Cleo Allen Noel and George Curtis Moore assasinated.  Arafat is also responsible for the Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking, where American tourist Leon Klinghoffer was murdered and his body thrown into the ocean.

Arafat and his brainwashed masses are also allied -- to this day -- with Saddam Hussein and cheer American deaths in Iraq, as they cheered American deaths on the morning of September 11th:

[Link: homepage.mac.com...]

Those who attempt to remain neutral between a terrorist dictator and a democratic state, have already chosen a side.  And when you join the side of America's enemies, you become my enemy.
 

My $.02:

Definitely not a toy. Not sure what it was, though, so took a browse through Jane's Infantry Weapons of 98-99 and 03-04. No pictures, but some extrapolation.

It's not a Dragunov SVD, although the buttstock is a pretty close match (although the forestock is a pretty standard AK/AKM design). A closer match, however, is the Iraqi Al-Kadisa 7.62 mm sniper rifle, a Dragunov knock-off. The Al-Kadisa, however has no bipod, and like virtually all sniper rifles, uses a 10-round box magazine.

The magazine is a standard 30-rd AKM mag. Don't know about the scope, although it is consistent with a sniper-type rather than battlefield scope.

Now for the bipod. It must be some kind of local adaptation; the SVD doesn't have one, and other mods like the RPK and the Iraqi Al-Quds SAWs have the bipod attached near the bayonet lug/flash suppressor. It looks like an RPK bipod but it's in the wrong place. And the flash suppressor is wrong for any of them (looks like it might've even come off of a Belgian FAL or some other such weapon).

None of the Chinese NORINCO knockoffs are even close.

My guess? A local adaptation of some kind. The placement of the bipod and the use of a 30-rd mag suggest a SAW rather than a sniper rifle (for a sniper rifle you'd want the bipod nearer the muzzle to increase control). And with the length of the bipod, a 30-rd AKM mag would really interfere with moving the rifle around. That said, the scope is a higher-magnification type, and the buttstock looks like it came off of a Dragunov or something similar. Bottom line? Somebody in the Suk put it together out of spare parts.

And then gave it to a kid.

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet (the first few posts were just speculation) but that's NOT a toy gun: it's an AK-74 in sniper configuration--extended barrel, scope, and bipod attachment.

The only toy guns anywhere NEAR that realistic being sold ANYWHERE are Airsoft guns, and they are rather expensive and have big bright orange plastic things on the end of the barrel.

Actually, from looking at the butt of the weapon, it might be a VSS Vintorez.

Anyway, point still stands: if anyone thought that was a toy gun, they're a self-decieving idiot.

Whats an Airsoft gun?

#133 Birdgunner

Bottom line? Somebody in the Suk put it together out of spare parts.

And then gave it to a kid.

As I thought - gunsmith with a handfile.

In civilized countries, people cobble bicycle parts together for their kids.

Here, however, I'm sorry to say this is not a kid, but a soldier - and a martyr-in-training if Arafat gets his way.

_____________

#136 noob 12/2/2003 06:51AM PST

Whats an Airsoft gun?

A toy - which this is not. See #106 above for a link.

133 Birdgunner 12/2/2003 05:43AM PST

Bottom line? Somebody in the Suk put it together out of spare parts.

I think you're right. It's an AK 47 or 74, with bells and whistles added after market.

It certainly isn't a toy, and is very heavy. Look how he's holding it.

"Think about the absurdity of what you are saying.  Nothing -- nothing --
justifies detonating nail-laden bombs in crowded restaurants, crowded
commuter busses, and wedding parties.  Nothing."

I fully agree with you. Nothing JUSTIFIES it. I was not trying to do so. I'm trying to explain it. It's the occupation that engenders the hatred.

It's not enough to blame it on the leadership's actions; Arafat couldn't just push a button and release Palestinian rage on demand. It comes from the experience of deep oppression. Despite the promises made in Oslo, the Palestinians saw the settler population in the territories double during the Oslo years.

If I'm you're enemy, then so are the four former Shabak heads that spoke out against the occupation, and Ya'alon, and the former speaker of the Knesset, Avraham Burg, who said

"Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should
not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up
in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our
places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their
own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they
have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated. We could
kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved, because the
leaders come up from below - from the wells of hatred and anger, from the
"infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption. "

I have to agree with the toy gun theory here. When I was younger, I used to own a toy M-16 that looked exactly like the real thing even when it came to texture, sheen and size. Back then (um... 20 years ago) we didn’t have the red caps to distinguish the real from the not real.

I have played with enough guns in shows and while hunting to know that no kid of that size can hold a Dragunov (a twisted version of it at least) which can weigh up to 12 lbs with one hand like this and make it look so easy. Its even challenging for the adult... try it at the next expo

its a very nice replica though...

Legend had it that mattel had made the stocks for the m-16 and later sold a toy made from the same molds, so a soldier returning from 'nam could just remove all the plastic, put the barrel and reciever in his boot and when back in the states buy a toy and replace all the plastic. But the link below says that is not true. Anyone know?

[Link: www.snopes.com...]

I fully agree with you. Nothing JUSTIFIES it. I was not trying to do so. I'm trying to explain it. It's the occupation that engenders the hatred.

No. that is not true. Being taught to hate is the cause of hate.

[Link: www.us-israel.org...]

The terror started long before 1967 so unless you mean that "the Occupation" is all of 1948 israel, the occupation is not the cause of the problem.

[Link: www.mfa.gov.il...]

Below just a few of the attacks.

Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.

May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.

July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

It looks like the Romanium WUM rifle or the Yugoslav version of the Ak that uses 7.62 Nato and is set up as a sniper/designated marksman rifle (don't have the designation at hand).

Either way it looks real.

Even if it is a toy, and I don't think it is, imagine any kid carrying that on the street here in the USA, much less Israel.

He'd likely be shot by police in an instant.

I made it clear, I accept Israel inside the '67 borders. The UN voted for it; it's a country, not occupied territory. Period.

Lemme also make it clear, attacks aren't going to EVER completely go away, just as you point out that they existed before the occupation. There will always be some rejectionists. But if Palestinians have a real state, not a sliced and diced up set of Bantustans, they will have something to show for their people and can largely-- i'm not saying completely-- deal with their rejectionists.

I've spent a lot of time in the territories and spoken to a lot of Palestinians. They might not like what happened in '48 but they also know it's history now. Pretty much everyone agrees it is the violence and dispossession of the occupation that feeds into the extremism. Palestinian society thirty years ago was the most secular society in the Arab world. The failure of secular nationalism to deliver for the people has led to the ability of Hamas and Jihad to exploit their feelings of desperation and get support for their methods.

Let me tell you what a teenage boy told me recently in the West Bank, because I think it sums it up pretty good: "End the occupation, and Hamas will melt away like ice cream."

The front lense on the scope certainly looks real to me; also looks as though it's equipped with parallax adjustment

OT I found an interesting series of images in an old discussion on the internet. One is of an mp-5 being fired from inside one of those james bond type cases.
Another is Diane Feistein holding an assualt rifle with the bolt closed and the magazine in place ( have to send her back to gun safety calss and make her re-read the Eddie Eagle comic book on going to get a grown-up if you see an unattended gun. Also a cyanide gun of Saddams.

[Link: 209.157.64.200...]