broken link to the picture, Charles

JG

I can't see the picture, was it withdrawn?

Typical of Reuters, by the way.

Okay, now the picture is there. Good thing I posted, I guess...

I think Reuters's wording is confusing, but the way I read the story, they mean 5 Palestinians were killed - 4 civilians, plus a gunman.

Pali kid,"I'm f*cked"

/mind reader

WTF?

...encountering resistance from gunmen who attacked them with anti-tank missiles and automatic weapons...

Those pesky civilians...

its also interesting in a different sense how they are referred to as "civilians", implying there is some kind of "civilized" society among the Jordyptians.

minor point

#4

It is a bit confusing, but I think Damian is right.

On the other hand, the civilian gunman could have been shooting pheasants (and thus, according to Kelly, deserved an unpleasant end).

4 civilians including one Paleostinian guman killed. And what were the other 3 up to? Did they have guns they were not firing? Were they tossing petrol bombs? Were they on their way to the local Jihadist mosque?

Why is the language on so much of their clothing English? Is that a prevalent language in Judea/Samaria? Are those the kinds of things sold in stores?

"Another thing about these civilian gunmen: they like to make sure there are plenty of children hanging around,"

These civilians are just Arafarts new UN funded
day school teachers. Liberals call this progress?

Come on, Charles.

Are you saying that "Palestinian" invariably means "civilian"? Read what you quoted: 5 Palestinians - 4 civilians and 1 gunman.

Or are you saying the specific division should have been in the headline?

Why is the language on so much of their clothing English? Is that a prevalent language in Judea/Samaria? Are those the kinds of things sold in stores?

I'm not positive about PalliLand but lots and lots of second hand clothing is shipped to the 3rd world. They love stuff that English words on it. I knew a Nigerian who would buy used and new clothing to send to Nigeria. He would fill a shipping container that he had a share in.

Remember the Japanese wearing sweatshirts that nonsensical English on them?

Another thing about these civilian gunmen: they like to make sure there are plenty of children hanging around, for opportunities like these.

Kinda like those Afghani kids that were killed when a wall fell on them during a US attack...a wall which was part of a Taliban ammo dump. Wonder what those kids were doing there?

And this surprises who? This is a standard yellow journalism tactic: write the headline so it presents the worst possible spin on the topic. And if it's about Jews, there's an added bonus.

I agree with you almost all the time, Charles, but Lynxx #12 is right. I don't even find the wording confusing. If you fill your blog with impertinent info people get turned off.

Lynxx
Are you saying that "Palestinian" invariably means "civilian"?

News reports from Paleostinian territory are notoriously spun by the Arab reporters and photographers. They lie and spin. An article will be titled "6 Paleostinians killed" Only when you read the last paragraph do you find they were Hamas gun slingers firing at the IDF.

A truthful newsman will be driven from PaleoLand. Not allowed to do his job there.

YJM
If you fill your blog with impertinent info people get turned off.

Don't be tough on Charles if he got this slightly wrong. Sometimes he must do it quick and dirty. He only has so many hours in a day. This blog is not a money maker for him.

I believe Charles was referring to this line:

Palestinian officials identified the dead as four civilians, including a medic, and a gunman

Hence: Dead Civilian Gunman

[Link: www.spectator.co.uk...]

Mark Steyn at his best

So is "gunman" just an everyday occupation now? Where does one sign up for that? I'd like to be a "civilian gunman" too.

OT -

Car Blast shakes Italian Synagogue (ruled a "suicide")

France Wises Up, shuts down two Islamic daycares for militancy

Torture Chambres found by Scotland Yards in London, connected with Turkish gangs

dennisw #13,

Remember the Japanese wearing sweatshirts that nonsensical English on them?

That's actually not because they get clothing from the US. It's because they literally translate things from Japanese into English. Try looking at a foreign language website through Babelfish and you'll see what I mean - it becomes odd English, at best. For some really funny examples of Japanese "English", check out [Link: www.engrish.com...]

***

Lynxx Pherett #12, YJM #16,

While I sort of understand what you're saying, I have to agree with Charles that the way that the paragraph is worded is very misleading. My first impression was that the gunman was a civilian gunman, as was Charles'. If they had wanted to make it clear, their sentence could have been:

Palestinian officials identified the dead as one gunman and four civilians, including a medic.

Of course, that would involve putting the emphasis on the gunman, by putting him first, and wouldn't demonize Israel, so we understand why Al Reuters wouldn't do that. However, it is clear that my sentence above, I belive, is far clearer in terms of its meaning than that of Al Reuters. If there was no agenda (and this is where Charles is especially right), the sentence would have been more like a natural sentence, more like my sentence above, then the artificial, twisted sentence that was produced.

#14 with long name the Droll Troll opines that in ganistan and palistan repositories of weapons and terrorists are always populated with children so that when they are hit the hue and cry of brutal civilian casualties can be raised. i'm sure the little tykes are treated as matyrs but what the hell is a pre puberty male going to do with 72 virgins

I challange Reuters to come up with something half as idiotic as this:

HizbAllah not terrorists, says Israeli Minister

We are doomed.

"Palestinian officials identified the [five - see headline] dead as four civilians, including a medic, and a gunman"

Though badly worded this says there were 5 dead: 1 gunman and 4 civilians, 1 of whom was a medic.

(#26) Rob

In your expert opinion, aside from the lunar landing, what else has the U.S. gov't "faked"?

Charles, I don't understand why you're so upset about that picture--those are just toy guns.

Hey man, jihad isn't war.

It's toast, white bread, a garden rake, a book. But it's not war,
crescent my heart and hope to die, it's not war, honest!

This is our religion, don't you respect freedom of religion? I got rights!

If you western guys shoot back, that ruins everything!
Come on! Stop it!

ululululululu!

/any muslim

Isn't "medic" usually used for military doctors? Does a "medic" qualify as a "civilian"?

Also - why is that with shooting coming from both sides, only Israel is (always) blamed for all deaths that occur? Couldn't the Palis have killed some of their own civilians?

Finally - the IDF said they killed 3 gunmen. The Pals claim only 1 gunman. Who's lying? Whose version of events (always) gets top billing?

Perhaps I could have been more clear: I do not trust anything written by (in order of decreasing trust): Reuters, Reuters Palestinian reporters, and "Palestinian officials." These people have been caught red-handed in lie after lie after lie. Time after time, the initial reports say "medics," "children," "retarded women" have been "killed by the Israeli Army," only to find, days later, that the dead are: "gunmen," "militants," or "Hamas activists."

Or to find that the death reports were completely fabricated.

How could the headline have been more accurate? How about if they rephrased it to match their usual wording when Israelis are killed by Palestinians? Something like:

Five Palestinians Killed in Gun Battle

This sort of reminds me of a comedian I saw commenting on how the evening news used 'youth' as a code word for African-American. As in, "Last night a 43 year old youth shot and killed a 14 year old suburban man."

OT

NY Times:

In Speech, Nobel Winner Rebukes the U.S.

In her acceptance speech, Ms. Ebadi reserved her strongest reproach for the United States, declaring that "some states have violated the universal principles and laws of human rights by using the events of Sept. 11 and the war on international terrorism as a pretext."

They didn't report any of her anti-Israel remarks. Typical.

In other stupid news:

Arafat Seeks to Restore His Mideast Status

Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader, has released a statement saying that he recognizes and respects "the Jewish religion and the Jewish historical attachment to Palestine," in a bid to restore his standing as an advocate of peace after more than three years of conflict.

Puh-leeze

Rob (#26),

Though badly worded this says there were 5 dead: 1 gunman and 4 civilians, 1 of whom was a medic.

I accept "badly worded" statements from High School newspapers, not from Reuters. From Reuters it's intentional.

Oh, and the story's been updated to six Palestinians killed, and the wording has gotten even more misleading -

Palestinian officials identified the dead as five civilians, including a medic and a 17-year-old, and a gunman.

In this case, it looks even more like the "civilians" included the "gunman." The eye tends to blip over the final comma, or assume that it's the usual comma before the "and" in a list.

What kind of civilians own anti-tank missiles? Oh, that's right.

So the gunman calls up his "civilian" friends and ask them to go for a walk with him, and bring the kids too, cause we are going to shoot at the Israelis. Sounds typical for the Palis.

OT, heavy rain and melting snow in the Albany, NY area are hampering efforts to locate three Russian crewmen still missing after their ship capsized along the dock while being loaded with GE Turbine Generators Bound for Italy and Romania.

Lord, from the looks of the photo and the reports, you'd think they cluster a bunch of civies together, then surround them with Ham-ass or Islamic Jihadi gunmen, before going in search of IDF troops to piss off.

#39

I read something a couple of years ago they pretty much did exactly that. They'd get have a bunch of Pali kids gather to throw rocks at IDF forces, wait for the media, generally sympathetic to the Palis to show up, and then have concelaed snipers fire the occasional round, from well behind the Pali kids, towards the IDF. The hope would be that the IDF would return fire, creating the appearance that the IDF returned rifle fire for rock throwing. That now famously dead Pali kid died this way.

Does anyone know the Reuters usage criteria for the following terms (when refering to Palestinians):

Gunman
Militant
Activist
Extremist
Supporter

The difference is too subtle for me to grasp.

#40 Ed Moran:

Huh. Learn somethin' new every day.

I didn't mean to be tough on Charles. LGF is a great blog. And, yes, before a week is over we'll discover that all four men were Hamas "activists" and the child was waving a "toy" pistol that only close inspection by a weapons expert could reveal its true nature. But, of course, we won't get the revision from Reuters or AFP.

43

Read that in the summer 2000 edition of a newletter my boss gave me, called " Wall Street Underground". Basic gist was ME war is almost inevitable. Also, per the author, all of this is ultimately funded by the Saudi entity (surprise, surprise), who view ME unrest as a win/win. Either they do wipe out the Jews, a win, or the constant turmoil keeps oil prices high, another win.

Author stated Hezbollah/Fatah et al have been very clever about winning the propaganda war, getting sympathetic journalists to portray this as a reverse David and Goliath story, with the Israeli's playing the Philistines. This is run out of Syria, with SA funding, but ( per the author, whose name I don't recall) even though Israel knows about Syrian involvement, it fears attacking Syria and further being portrayed as the aggressor. If Israel does go to war with Syria ( according to author), world opinion would not allow a complete and total victory, SA would not only emerge unscathed but would benefit from higher oil prices caused by the conflict.

Amazing analysis, especially since the author was writing in 2000 and commenting on Camp David.

OT: Germans raid 1,200 apartments across Germany...
[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

#42 TargetPractice, King of the Britons

Here's some more about that incident: [Link: palestinefacts.org...]

#46 Colt:

Thanks, read that awhile back. Modern-day adaptation of a tried-and-true propoganda technique: show pictures of corpses, present a plausible story that shows your enemy in the worst light, and expect the average civie to be ignorant enough to swallow the story without question.

Hey Sailor!

I do believe that one of the civilians is wearing a North American Man Boy Love Association shirt! He's just trying to defend his Allah given right to love boys. And love them, and love them, and love them some more! Just look at how loved that boy in the picture looks.

Yuck. I need a shower.

@34 Geepers

I was on both high school and college newspapers and have done stories for "adult" newspapers since graduation.

There is a MUCH higher degree of truthfulness in the school publications and they are held to a higher standard for grammar. They don't have the money for lawsuits.

Just in my experience.

Next headline...

Zionist IDF murders Five Palestinian Sportsman

(Rooters) Zionist Israeli soliders murdered five Palestinian Sportsman who were target shooting near the Illegally Oppresive Zionist Entity. According to witnesses, one of the sportsman dropped a gun and accidentally shot fifteen unholy Jewish Murders. Witnesses also report that the IDF responded with repeated fighter attacks and bombings at the "Yassar Arafat Target Range" located just outside the Jerusalem border.

IDF sources were not asked to comment, since that would make this story less interesting.

OT, but I've been looking at latest model soundings ( mainly ETA model soundings from 06Z model run), and per ETA, HOU may be just a shade too far north of the warm front to have tornadoes tomorrow, despite impressive 450 m^2/s^2 helicity values. Galveston will have ESE winds/cool air lowest ~500 feet, with S winds and tropical air above, 500 feet of stable air may not protect Galveston from tornadoes.

Of course, supercells that form in the tropical air and cross the warm front, while quickly losing the ability to produce tornadoes as the depth of the cold stable air increases, can still drop hail for a while ( Hi, Quark2)

CAPE just down the road in Victoria tomorrow evening forecast 1.6 Kjoules/Kg, with about 250 m^2/s^2. Anyway, if ETA is right, tornadoes stay just south of HOU, but a ~50 mile difference in surface cyclone track/warm frontal position would make for an exciting evening tomorrow. Latest SPC SWODY2 has a SLIGHT RISK for severe thunderstorms along the upper Texas coastal plain ( THERE IS A SLGT RISK OF SVR TSTMS TO THE RIGHT OF A LINE FROM 25 SSE CRP 40 N NIR 30 S CLL 25 SE LFK 10 S POE 35 SSE LCH)

Bad news for DFW snow/sleet hounds. 6Z models continue to suggest temps remain above freezing until most/all of the precip is over. ETA model sounding suggest even where temps due get to freezing, a warm layer will exist between 5000 and 8000 feet, meaning sleet/ice instead of snow anyway. If 6Z models to be believed, even OKC's snowstorm parade might get rained on. For places like OKC I'm not familiar with, I usually read the local office forecast discussions. The NWS people are already seeing the 12Z models, and they have fancy work stations, so I will be reading the afternoon discussions from OKC and FWD (DFW area) before I unofficially declare winter ruined there this weekend.

Reading discussiosn from BOX and OKX, big NE cities dangerously close to rain/snow line for next big winter storm Sunday/Monday.

Now that Tropical Storm Peter has dissipated in the open Tropical North Atlantic, there is a 99.999% chance the 2003 Hurricane Season is over.

Ed Moran #51

May I be so bold as to ask why you use this site to double as the National Weather Service?

You may be so bold...

Okay, let's take a closer look at this story. Israeli armor rolls into Rafah and local citizens fight back. The Palestinians shooting at the Israeli soldiers are now dubbed "terrorists."

To the authors of LGF - If an enemy tank rolled into your neighborhood, wouldn't you try to destroy it? When you picked up a gun, do you suddenly become a "terrorist?" Think about this a little more carefully and try not to jump to any angry conclusions.

I don't have much sympathy for dead Islamic Jihad members, but you must remember that not all Palestinians, nor all Muslims, are terrorists.

-A Thoughtful Jew
Jonathan
Writer - WiredOpinion.com

If Islamic Jihad didn't use civilian neighborhoods to organize terror attacks inside Israel, the IDF would be much less inclined to roll tanks into the neighborhood.

Ed

This is a great thread though, to start with I wouldn't have thought so. First off, why is that guy in US cammo?

#22 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus: Did you get that analysis. The authorities in Italy say it wasn't terrorism due to the time of day it happened (even though the suicide was Jordanian and it happened outside a synagogue). Nothing to see here folks, move along.

#20 mal: Great Steyn column as ususal. I never tire of reading the good ones: Steyn, Hanson, Glick, and several others. G*d bless them and keep them healthy. We need them.

#51 Ed Moran: Dear Abu somebody: Are you one of those weather boffins? It's all Greek to me but if you say so, I'll take your word for it. You're a lizardoid minion, after all! ;-)

54

Afghanistan is/was full of civilians. Therefore, after 9/11, we should have left al Qaeda alone?

#51 Ed Moran

As a Texan, I enjoy your weather reports.

Are you a pilot BTW?

Reply to #55 (Ed Moran) -

Ed, I think we have to look at this story without getting into a "Who Started It?" argument, especially because that's an impossible argument for anybody to win.

If you take that line of argument, people will reply to your "If Islamic Jihad didn't use civilian neighborhoods to organize terror attacks inside Israel" with "If Israel didn't treat Palestinians so badly, Islamic Jihad wouldn't have a mandate or public support" and it inevitably spins into a "God gave it to us," "No he gave it to us," debate.

The fact is that I can understand why a citizen of Rafah would fire at the Israeli tank. If I owned a gun and an enemy tank rolled into my neighborhood, I would do the same thing. Perhaps I'm taking a leap of faith here, but I'd wager you'd do it, too.

There's a difference between the antagonistic terrorists who attack Israeli civilians and the Palestinian residents who try legitimately feel threatened and try to defend themselves.

Thanks for the response.

-Jonathan
Writer
WiredOpinion.com

Elizabeth (#56),

First off, why is that guy in US cammo?

Because the combined output of the 56 members of the OIC (minus oil) equals nothing?

No, not a pilot.

I did read "Airport" when I was about 9 years old.

If I ever win the Lotto, or the new multi-state Lotto, I may quit my job, and work on getting a degree in meteorology.

My wife gets me books every year for my birthday/Christmas.

Do you know who Dr. Paul Kocin is? He is the winter forecast expert on TWC. My wife got me his book, Snowstorms Along the Northeastern Coast of the United States: 1955 To 1985, Paul J. Kocin and Louis Uccellini, American Meteorological Society
for Christmas last year.

#61 Ed Moran

You should host a new hip show called, "Weather, it's happening." Or something to that effect.

#56 Elizabeth

First off, why is that guy in US cammo?

Which one? Just kidding. It's probably Army surplus. Seriously, the Pals usually dress up in some form of foreign military cast-offs.

Jonathan-

if you throw out the "Who Started It" debate totally, than I can make a compelling argument that the US Army in 1944 should have stopped at the German border after liberating France, and that the landings in Italy were wrong.

Jonathan

Other posters can be more precise, but Israel occupies somewhat less than 1% of all the land the Arabs claim. Further, opinion polls show that the majority of the Palestinian population (including "civilians") would support continued terror against Israel even if all the land the Arabs lost in their wars of aggression were returned. Arafat's behavior at Camp David three years ago suggests that he is not sincere in his "desire" for peace.

Thus, it is sophistry to say "lets ignore who started this", IMHO

I like Ed Moran's Weather announcements. Like the weather channel, they are very interesting.
--a while back I commented on the firing of guns into the air and how in my area we are warned not to do that. the bullets come down and hit and kill people incl yourself. So I was told after reaching the top of the arc the bullets sub-sume IDF ownership..

#54 Johnathan

Your argument is like saying if the cops came to your neighbourhood looking for a drug dealer that you know lives across the street, you'd shoot at the cops.

You may be thoughtful but I think you should think a little more.

Jonathan #59,

Ed, I think we have to look at this story without getting into a "Who Started It?" argument, especially because that's an impossible argument for anybody to win.

I'm afraid that that's just patently false. Theoretically, as of the time of the Oslo "peace" accords, the two parties committed themselves to trying to negotiate toward a peaceful solution. During the time of the Oslo "peace" process, the Israelis prepared for peace (by, for example, educating their children that Jordyptians were not out to kill all the Jews and that peace could happen) while the Jordyptians prepared for war (by, for example, equipping a far higher number of "police" then allowed under the Oslo accords or educating their children that "From the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranea] sea, Palestine will be free").

If you take that line of argument, people will reply to your "If Islamic Jihad didn't use civilian neighborhoods to organize terror attacks inside Israel" with "If Israel didn't treat Palestinians so badly, Islamic Jihad wouldn't have a mandate or public support" and it inevitably spins into a "God gave it to us," "No he gave it to us," debate.

I'm afraid not - See above. Furthermore, Israel's supposed abuses of the Jordyptian population do not justify Jordyptian usage of human shields. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Jordyptians, were they to be a civilized people, would be required to separate their military (terrorists) from their civilians. The 4GC does not make an exception because of this supposed oppression or that one, I'm afraid to say.

Furthermore, I'd contest the whole notion that the Jordyptians are oppressed by Israel and not by the Tunisian Occupation. During the time that Israel had complete control of the disputed territories (1967-1993), Jordyptian birth rates rose, infant mortality plummetted, the first universities were built, GDP/capita skyrocketed, etc. The Jordyptians had more freedoms (in terms of speech, press, etc.) then Arabs in any Arab state - and if you consider Israeli Arabs as well, we need only look at Bishara to see that the open advocacy of treason was a right that they have in Israel which they do not even have in the US.

The fact is that I can understand why a citizen of Rafah would fire at the Israeli tank. If I owned a gun and an enemy tank rolled into my neighborhood, I would do the same thing. Perhaps I'm taking a leap of faith here, but I'd wager you'd do it, too.

I understand that they would do that. And that you would. However, if I were to do it, I sure as hell wouldn't complain about the tank firing back. That's really the issue. And if I were to do it, I wouldn't put my little Abdul to stand in front of me in the hopes that it would make bad press for Israel. Would you?

There's a difference between the antagonistic terrorists who attack Israeli civilians and the Palestinian residents who try legitimately feel threatened and try to defend themselves.

Why do they legitimately feel threatened? Has Israel been sweeping through and killing hundreds of Jordyptians randomly? Or do they only target the terrorists?

Jonathan, I think I've located the cause of moral equivalence thoughtfulness!

Daily Read
News/Commentary:
BBC News
CNN.com
Drudge Report
The Guardian
New York Times

P.S. Any ideas on how to explain this one away?

(#69) zulubaby:

P.S. Any ideas on how to explain this one away?

Because of the Zionists, their cafeteria no longer has sloppy joes on fridays.

This is what Palestinian "activists" look like.

Jonathon,, writer?... why are you writing about issues you know nothing about? have you ever been in Israel, longer than a weeklong tikkun meeting?
do you truly understand the situation i here ? do you think we like he idea of sending in our little boys, in tanks to go look for " activists" that blow up folks at passoverseders, and pizza parlours? i suppose in your country, you never look for murderers etc, because your too busy philosophising over " who did it first"
dont write about things you know nothing about,, it makes you sound false, and pretentious... i learned that in school writing courses,, to bad you didn't.
you play with your word games , motek,, leave real life to we people who have to live it.
liz
artist
Jerusalem
oh , and ps? you think they get angry over tanks in their neighbourhood? i get livid over people like you , coming my neighbourhood , and making totally false, ridiculous reports over what we are going through here,,, get it?

Jonathan tells us a little about himself:

Jon was born and raised in his home town of Atlanta, GA. Jon has no political aspirations, and thus he still manages to maintain some of his idealism, even in the face of the harsh reality of politics. Jon is passionate about music, civil rights and liberties, altruism, and the guarantees of the First Amendment. Jon despises dogmatism, scare tactics, lack of transparency in government, enslavement to pragmatism, and dirty ulterior motives for politicians, corporations, or anybody, really.

Jonathan, I suggest you do a lot of reading around this subject - try and find out more about the history and don't rely on Arab propaganda. The latter disintegrates if any weight is brought to bear on it.

Look at this!!

WTF!!! AFP is calling Islamic Jihadist "activists" now.

Alouette (#75)

WTF!!! AFP is calling Islamic Jihadist "activists" now.

They've been doing that for a while already. Look at wording of my post :-)

#76 zulubaby

They may be "activists" when they march around in their darling costumes waving their cute accessories, but when one of them is a wanted criminal (for causing the untimely deaths of many innocent people) you would think even Reuters and AFP would at least use the term alleged terrorist.

Alouette (#77)

... you would think even Reuters and AFP would at least use the term alleged terrorist.

You would think, yes. I have a special hatred for the media, I hold them responsible for the growing anti-Semitism.

Reply to 74 (RC-neo jew)

The bio you posted was that of my colleague and associate, Jon, and not me (Jonathan). I know, it's a bit confusing.

MY side of WiredOpinion is here.

-Jonathan
Writer
WiredOpinion.com

P.S. - before you jump to conclusions about me, it may interest you that my latest post is a condemnation of the vandalism at the Jewish cemetary at Auschwitz and a criticism of Noam Chomsky.

I don't want people to get the wrong idea.

Jonathan (#80)

I don't want people to get the wrong idea.

About what?

Jonathan #80,

Wonderful. So you oppose defiling the memory of dead Jews, but have no problems with the creation of more dead Jews. Do you want a medal?

And you oppose the most ridiculous levels of postmodernism, but insist on moral equivalency between non-equivalent acts. This isn't exactly a bonus.

Jonathan, I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but if you post here you'd better damned well have the goods (links to primary sources) to back it up. Lecturing the regulars does not go down well.

Oh, and Jonathan, please feel free to answer the posts that address yours.

And remember, this is LGF: The site that fact checks your ass™.

all i can say:

THANK YOU JONATHON, FOR A VOICE OF REASON AND SENSIBILITY!!!

Please, keep posting your well-though-out and un-biased comments!

It is people like you that will create the understanding we need for peace all over the world.

-- an arab, a muslim, and condemner of violence and lover of peace and understanding

#85 serene

Dumb and dumber...

If you had seen a tank once in your life, you'd know why you don't shoot at a tank, nor throw rocks at it.

Morons.