yes indeed - we need to understand that muslims intend to subvert our society by taking advantage of its open-ness, eventually to establish sharia, relegating all non-muslims to dhimmidom.

i certainly hope more people understand islam and its intentions for us

I think we have a pretty intelligent idea about what Islam is all about.

George Orwell - please call your office. Newspeak on line 1.

Yes we do understand Islam.

That is why at great expense and inconvienence to ourselves we (at least some of us) have set out to civilize the thing.

Seems like the Muslim population has caught onto and taken advantage of the West's preoccupation with Political Correctness.
They will keep on annoying the Europeans until they end up being shipped back to their middle-eastern shitholes.
The problem is that it will take a civil war and millions will be killed.
Good riddence.

France hasnt blinked yet on this one:

Chirac to Seek Law Banning Head Scarves

We also have a pretty good idea what the Nobel Prize is all about these days, too. Candidates must be properly vetted to avoid any possibility they will say anything laudatory about Bush, Blair, the Coalition, the liberation of Iraq or the West's attitude toward Islam.

I think we understand very well about Islam here, Ms. Pompous Moron. Reminds me of some quote where some imam warned us that if we monitor immigrants too closely , they will get angry at us cause they already have a big resentment against America. Of course, the proper solution is to deport all Muslim aliens and stop all immigration from enemy (islamic) countries never entered his pea brain. As if we are supposed to welcome all Muslim potential terrorists in with open arms less they get angry and start killing.

Huh? I'm still trying to find out if Muslims understand the difference between Shiites and Sunnis and why they kill eachother over it.

In a program about secularism on the state channel France 2, asked about the issue of Islam and modernization, Ebadi said; ‘what it needs is to be better understood and to be interpreted more intelligently.’

Yes, by Muslims.

"A law will displace the problem. It will turn the head scarf problem into a war on Islam," said Mohamed Ennacer Latreche, president of the small but vocal Party of Muslims of France.

A "parallel community" could develop, and "detach itself completely from French society," he said by telephone.

"This isn't a defense of secularism. It's an effort to domesticate Islam," Latreche said.

"Domesticating" Islam is exactly what is needed.

Haven't we heard this arguement before? Something to the tune of "I don't need to change for you to understand, kaffir, you have to bend over and understand me. Allah Akbar!" And to think, people criticize Christianity for pre-reform actions that Islam is doing to this very day (i.e. killing non-believers, forcing them to convert, practicing religious law, etc).

I think the head scarf thing is a stupid issue for Chirac to defend. Secularist Fascism is not a valuable method to improve or protect education. What's a head scarf but nothing more than en extension of one's faith?

Do they ban crucifixes too? What about yamakas?

#12

Do they ban crucifixes too? What about yamakas?

Yes, both yarmulkes (sp?) and crucifixes will be banned.

Enough is enough. I've been hearing this dribble for over two years. We understand Islam well. THEY need to understand us--an enlighted democracy that allows INDIVIDUALS to make up their own minds on the limits of society, and lets INDIVIDUALS worship their respective G-d or G-ds as they see fit.

As far as I'm concerned, they need to understand that anything is allowable as long as it doesn't involve physically hurting another individual. Any religion that advocates the physical harm of another--for religious cohesion--should be regarded as cult and wiped off the face of the earth.

They don't like our "decadent" western society, our morals, our TV shows, our music, etc. Then DON"T WATCH IT and DON'T be a part of it.

This daughter of Allah has been perfectly dhimmi-ized. The perfect choice for the lefty jerk offs on the Nobel literature committee. They are so excited to have chosen a Muslim to show solidarity with the 3rd world.

#10: zulubaby

"Domesticating" Islam is exactly what is needed.

Absolutely.

In Germany, a Muslim woman who wanted to be a teacher and wasn't accepted due to her wearing a headscarf went to the German "Supreme Court". The Court decide every State can decide for its own whether headscarves are allowed or not. She said she'd be feeling like on the road to Auschwitz, because they hadn't totally given in (well, partially they have).

They play every trick they can on Gutmenschen.

Alas, whilst everybody was praising the Nobel Jury for electing a 'human/female rights activist' Iranian woman, I had already come across quite a few disturbing hints on how Ebadi really thinks.

OK, she is against the mullahs' regime. But whom, with a bit left of conscience, would not? Aside from that, this charming lady profers a quite typical Muslim argumentation, ranging from the kind of bullshit cited above (how typical!) to a sound condemnation of Israel for its horrible crimes (again, how typical!).

But, to be fair, what else could you expect from an Iranian woman? After all, what she says is no different from the good old rethoric of the Left. As we say in France, this would mean 'etre plus royaliste que le roi'.

It seems to me that Islam has suffered under increasing understanding by the West. Before 9/11, when we were all naive and few had actually read the Quraan, we were all in multi-culti appeasement mode. Now that we've had a good look at the religion, we understand it much better ... boy, do we understand it better. In fact, it seems the better non-Muslims understand it, the more steeled they are to resist it.

If she's not asking for Islam to reform, then she should be asking for non-Muslims to go back to sleep and forget what they've seen!

What a bloody hypocrite

Um ... are you in any way, shape, or form really surprised?

I sure as Hell am not.

i am a very vocal conservative and couldnt be happier with our actions in the middle east (except for our shabby treatment of Israel)

However, banning headscarfs? Next will be yalmukas, crucifixes, churches, synagogues and mosques. Can you imagine such a ban here in the USA...it is shortsighted and is a direct attack on peoples ability to practice their belief. I have to agree the muslims on this one...it is wrong!
I mean you can ban a girl for wearing a scarf becasue it represents modesty ( in her religion) yet no similar ban exists on women walking around topless on the beach or in skimpy revealing outfits that may upset other peoples sensibilities...doesnt exactly sound fair. ( I am by the way very much against banning nuditiy and skimpy outfit wearing in europe...am just making a point)

ZuluB
_____

France--->>
As expected, Chirac rejected a commission recommendation to establish the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur and the Muslim Eid el-Kabir feast as school holidays.

France's Muslim community — 8 percent of the country's population — is the largest in Western Europe. France's Jewish community, about 1 percent of the population, is also Western Europe's largest.

‘what it needs is to be better understood and to be interpreted more intelligently.’

No wonder pride is one of the 7 deadly sins. Pride prevents these ignorant fucks from ever seeing reform as a good thing. Instead, they see reform as a humiliating acknowledgement that they are fucked up in the first place. I'm betting that Islam was what they were thinking of when they made up that deadly sin. And it is true. Their foolish pride will be their total undoing.

#12: Mulik al-Malook

See here:

The ban will extend to other religious symbols including Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses, but France's top Muslim representative said it mainly targeted Islam and would further alienate the country's five million Muslims.

What did she say? Islam need not modernize, Islam
"needs to be better understood and to be interpreted more intelligently."
So, the problem with Islam is one of PERCEPTION! They only appear to be bloodthirsty misogynists and anti-semites with grandiosity issues. Of course, if only we (the west) would not label them then they would stop killing innocents and take the boot off of their womens necks!!!
BRILLIANT!!!!
I've changed handles again....vinmachine to insanepotato to insane_kufr

one of the most fundamental human rights [is] being able to decide what to wear

I decide to wear nothing but Jimmy Choo shoes, Agent Provocateur underwear and Chanel clothes however, I cannot afford any of it. My FUNDAMENTAL human rights are being infringed. Who do I sue?

The Iranian people dislike her and we can see why.

BS"D

#9 Malik

Shi'a Islam, basic split came over issues of succession after the death of Mo ham head. According to some schools of Hadith, Mo asked for "waraqa wa qalaam" paper and pen, so that he could write his testament. Shi'a maintain that he was going to appoint 'Ali his successor. This request went unfulfilled by those present, including Abu Bakr. This sects name is actually Shi'at Al-'Ali, or the partisans of (or party of) 'Ali.

Sunni Islam are those who accept as the will of Mo ham head the succession line of Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman.. and then 'Ali. Sunni derives from Sunnat , traditional, or orthodox.

Other differences include slightly different postures in prayer, # of prayes per day 3 v 5, whether or not a child needs parental permission to go to Jihad. Shi'a school of Islam also placed great emphasis on incarnate "saints" the Imams are literally regarded as "Ayat-allah" or shadow (or evidence) of Allah, on earth. This is carried over into their theocratic structures wherein the position of ultimate authority is invested in the "velayeti faqi" or supreme spiritual leader, a postion currently occupied (in Iran) by ayatollah Khamene'i. This person can overturn any law passed by the majlis (parliament), enact emergency decrees, and disolve the government. The Sunni have no comparable position, the closest thing being the religious Shura councils which act only in an advisory capacity.

hans ze beeman (#16)

She said she'd be feeling like on the road to Auschwitz ...

Is there any low that they won't stoop to? At least she's not a Holocaust-denier ...

They play every trick they can on Gutmenschen.

It's shameless manipulation. They take advantage of our democracies to drag us back an age or two.

I agree with the woman. Islam can't be reformed or modernized. It needs to be eradicated. As for understanding Islam, I understand it perfectly. It's a reprobate religion, with violence, hate and lust as it's foundation. It's just too bad that the very people who claim it as their faith are too ignorant to drop down on their knees and repent to God of it.

Just because she is against forbidding the wearing of the habib scarf doesn't mean she is in favor of requiring the wearing of the head scarf.

That is not a hypocritical stance.

I agree that Islam needs a reformation.

#10 zulubaby

Latreche is a 100% kosher Islamofascist, with many strong connections with Far Right antisemitic and Far Left anticapitalist/antizionist movements, Holocaust deniers, etc....
Him and his French converts elk have published (not so...) underground a forgery, closely mirroring the Protocol of the Elders of Zion, called the 'Manifeste judeonazi d'Ariel Sharon'. I suppose it is superfluous to tell you the content of this book.
He is not really representative of the Muslims in France, at least not yet, fortunately. But his influence is likely to grow, especially in the Muslim populated suburban zones off France's major cities.

Smit (#25)

LOL! You and me both. Where's the justice in this world!?

violence, hate and lust as it's foundation. It's just too bad that the very people who claim it as their faith are too ignorant to drop down on their knees and repent to God of it.

I wish all humans beings would realize we created god and then we could drop religion altogether.

"What a bloody hypocrite." Well, yes: but, therefore, a perfect choice for a Nobel.

I thought you weren't allowed to "interpret" the Koran? In fact, I KNOW you're not allowed to.

Is the Nobel Prize winner speaking with a forked tongue?

The head scarf raises difficult questions. I think that France has decided to resist on this issue because of fundamentalist Islam's bullying character. The head scarves and all the other accoutrments are "in your face" reminders that Islam intends, ultimately, to establish a Shari'a state in France and everywhere else it can.

But if the Muslim women were to wear their headscarves as, for example, the Amish I grew up among wear their clothing, merely as a sign of difference without any political claim that every other person had to dress that way, I wonder if we would care?

We would probably think, as I used to think of the Amish, something like "I wonder what makes them want to do that?"

Jamie irons

david (#31)

Thanks for the background info.

He is not really representative of the Muslims in France, at least not yet, fortunately.

Yet he's quoted in that article. I wonder how the AP reporter knew of him.

'what it needs is to be better understood and to be interpreted more intelligently.'

what she is saying is you should understand islam, they way we want you to understand it

and not the way any normal logical examination of islam would reveal islam

jihad by any other name

ROP my ass

but France's top Muslim representative said it mainly targeted Islam and would further alienate the country's five million Muslims.

Too bad all of their attacks on Jooooos didn't cause alienation of the Muslim community in France. Oh well, what ever it takes to provoke these criminals to reveal their true racist colors is fine with me. That is why I support the very provocative trip Sharon took to the Temple Mount, that revealed the PLO Arabs as only one free traveling jew away from years of mass murder. People are fond of criticizing Sharon for revealing how fake the 'peace' was. I thank him.

Why do they always make excuses for Radical Islam? I don't get it? There are model Islamic countries that are friendly such as...Khazakhstan. How come no one does any research on the good Islam? Where are these people...that want reformation in Islam.

I assume they are scared for their lives to come out and speak out against Radical Islam...I don't blame them...

we need to encourage these people to come out and speak up for the good of Islam or else we are about to enter a Jihad the likes of which no one has seen since the Crusades...only worse.

Andrew B.

Apparently they all still fatally assume that kufrs are braindead, and only they have any intellect. They speechify with arrogance and patronizing in tone. It will in the end get this parasitic society in deep doo doo before it's all over with.

OT ...well, way OT! :)

[Link: www.crystalssilverstar.com...]

For all you lizoidminion native to the Houston area, here's a hidden little gem for you to try out. For a lovely drive and evening of great food and atmosphere on a weekend getaway. My husband and I 'discovered' this little gem last weekend at the Christmas on The Square event. Oh yes, the coffees are loverly!

disclaimer: I am not associated with nor gain any monetary advantage from the above, just a full tummy. *lol

#24 insane_kufr

LOL

Debkafile has a report on a call-in show with Shaul Mofaz (who was born in Iran) on Israel Radio's Farsi-language service.

One caller from a city in central Iran asked when Israel and the Jews would finally repay their historical debt to Cyrus the Great and rescue the Iranian people from the dread ayatollahs, just as US President George W. Bush had helped the people of Iraq and Afghanistan throw off their oppressors. ...

Mofaz, admitting he was not in the miracle business, wished the Iranian people success in their struggle for freedom. But then a stream of callers pleaded for Israel to intervene to help overthrow the Islamic regime.

Seems like Ms Ebadi is way out of touch with public opinion in her own country. But this often happens with the Nobel Peace Prize - they anoint the sainted jetset intellectuals (remember Rigoberta Menchu?) who have little or no contact with what's actually going on at home.

OT but but but - it's incredible!

'it was only 'satire' hehehe - I was only joking - I'm not a moonbat..."
Madeline Albright says she was "joking".

Oh come on!

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

The Middle East's disgusting cultural morals mixed together with Islamic religion arrogance have creates a stinking pile of 'anything goes'. Self-deception, false liable, mass killing of innocents, blame shifting are shown by their accepted tactics:

Use of ambulances to kill, religious shrines to hide fighters and weapons, white surrender flags to trick us, and use of children as weapons and shields.....

Excerpt from here

In Samarra US forces claimed they killed 11 attackers after a complex ambush in which they suffered no casualties.

Moments later, two men on a motorcycle firing automatic weapons used children leaving school as cover to attack the patrol. Soldiers, in consideration of the children and a nearby mosque, employed snipers to target the attackers and successfully suppressed the enemy's ability to inflict damage. The attackers fled as the patrol continued their movement through the city.

As their Prophet instructs...Muslims are to create fear in the hearts of their enemies. Disgust and loathing are just an added bonus.

FUBAR!

#33 JohnX

I wish all humans beings would realize we created god and then we could drop religion altogether.

Sounds good. The first religion we should get rid of is Transnational Progressivism. Burn down the global village!

#32 zulubaby - I might support her if she campaigned on subsidised Chanel lip gloss for all...

If this French recommendation becomes law, wearing a Kippeh or an 'oversized' cross will be outlawed as well. Probably Sikh turbans as well. This will infringe liberties. However, other parts of the law such as being unable to refuse to be treated by a male Doctor are necessary.

At my secondary school about 70% of the girls were Muslim and about 100% of those girls were wearing the headscarf by age 16. But only a few wore because they truly believed in the religious reasons, most wore it because it was 'cultural' i.e. their fathers/brothers dropped them off at school in the morning. Once at school, the scarf would come off & the makeup would go on.

Do not underestimate the power of MTV.

Interestingly, there is a majority Muslim country which forbids the head-scarf in all government locales (courts, schools, etc.): Turkey. So it is possible to limit the hijab and have people still practice their religion.

Dan Rudy-

I mean you can ban a girl for wearing a scarf becasue it represents modesty ( in her religion) yet no similar ban exists on women walking around topless on the beach or in skimpy revealing outfits that may upset other peoples sensibilities...doesnt exactly sound fair.

We are discussing protecting French culture here. Since when did fairness ever have anything to do with things like rationality and fairness? (Anglais refugee who fled from Quebec speaking.)

Ali Al-Behesti
BS"D

This reminds me of something out of The Trouble With Islam. When she needed help and guidance about Islam while on a visit in Israel and the West Bank she ended up having to ask Israelis for help because they get training in Islamic customs and history in both school and the military. The Muslims she talked to couldn't answer her questions.

Noted LGF comments:

"They will keep on annoying the Europeans until they end up being shipped back to their middle-eastern shitholes."

"the proper solution is to deport all Muslim aliens and stop all immigration from enemy (islamic) countries"

"This daughter of Allah has been perfectly dhimmi-ized. The perfect choice for the lefty jerk offs"

"But, to be fair, what else could you expect from an Iranian woman?"

"I'm betting that Islam was what they were thinking of when they made up that deadly sin."

johnx #51,

What's your point? If you don't agree with certain sentiments, you can feel free to make your case.

johnx (#51)

You haven't answered my question.

#51 johnx
Are you doing a little trolling today?

Re: #30 (Johnx)

"Just because she is against forbidding the wearing of the habib scarf doesn't mean she is in favor of requiring the wearing of the head scarf."

Indirectly, she may be: One of the groups of people who supported the ban were the school-aged girls who were being forced, not by the state, but by their parents (likely their fathers, in reality) and by their male colleagues, among whom gang rape is the favored method of enforcement. By prohibiting the wearing of these scarves across the board, France is (or, at least is trying - I have doubts it will work) protecting these girls from often violent and violative peer pressure.

Dear Ms. Ebadi,

The West did not understand Islam. Now, thanks to efforts made on your behalf, by Osama Bin Laden, numerous Saudi Prince's and Wahabbists, Hamas, Arafat, and the words and preachings of too many Islamic clerics and academics to mention, we understand Islam very clearly. That's why eventually we will engage you and your kind completely and we will fight your Holy War and we will win it, mercilessly if that's what it takes. You brought it on because you wanted Islamic world domination. You will go the way of all tyrants and predators with those ambitions, and that is the way to extinction.

Oh, and you will also suffer the dreaded "humiliation" along the way, so get used to it.

Behold the BBC staff at a meeting.

@44 Free Speech is only for Uber-Libs [ethos]

Mad maddie has been pretty much reamed on all of the moonbat broadcasting systems too. *lol She caught hell on ABC this morning on The View.
Of course she's now protesting that 'she was only joking'. Got caught with her drawers down, she did. :)

Irshad Manji author of The Trouble With Islam recommends we ask Muslims hard questions like "Why is it that Christians Jews and Muslims can go to the Western wall and visit virtually all of Jerusalem but only Muslims can go to Mecca. She even says on her website that we Jews have a duty under the obligation of doing acts for Tikkun Olam to ask such questions.

If everyone reads her book's section on what nonMuslims should be asking Muslims and starts asking her recommended questions a whole lot of things might change. Of course the Iranian Mullahs and the Saudi Imams wouldn't appreciate it much.

Oops, my mistake. That pic is of the people who buy what Shrin Ebadi says.

'Scripting hitting the Enter key before I'm done!

What Ebadi says about Islam not needing reform.

dennisw (#21)

As expected, Chirac rejected a commission recommendation to establish the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur and the Muslim Eid el-Kabir feast as school holidays.

Hmmm. I bet the idea of Yom Kippur being a school holiday would never have come up if the Muslims weren't campaigning for Eid el-Kabir to become one. People wearing kippas or crucifixes has never been an issue either, as far as I know. Now everybody will suffer because the Muslims refuse to integrate.

From the CJN: Muslim Student criticized for supporting Israel.
[Link: www.cjnews.com...]

#57 & #60 Korora
Both of your comparisons are insulting....to ducks. ;-)

johnx: Are you new? Comments like "get rid of the man creation 'god'" shall not be fed.

#51 JohnX
Here's another noted LGF comment for you: FOAD.

Does anyone here really see headscarfs as something that should be banned from schools? Or as Ariel pointed out what the Turks do, ban them in schools, courts, government buildings?

I see such a ban as a ridiculous restriction of religious liberty.

My only issue concerns the full facial covering of the burqa which is quite new as a religious tradition is concerned. The headscarf dates back a few thousand years.

@66 mickthemick

Oh yeah, and don't forget that classic of LGF....

GAZE

:)

If I understand it right, all 'overtly religious' apparel has been banned since 1905, headscarves included. I may well be wrong, though.

#69 Me

In French schools, that is.

Malik al-Mulook

The headscarf dates back a few thousand years.

Actually the current form that covers all the hair and leaves only the face is an invention only 70 years old invented by a Lebannese cleric. It is hardly an ancient tradition.

Further the Koran itself only requires that wives of Mohammed veil themselves. It is not required of any other woman. The tradition before that Lebanese cleric instituted his particular personal rule was that particular women might choose a head covering to indicate their special devotion to Islam (as like a nun in Christianity), but a little girl certainly could not because she wasn't old enough to make such a decision.

May I suggest you read some nonpropaganda history books about Islam.

The website that johnx links to (with his nick) refers to "Herr Bush" and, amongst other things, websites like ...

~ InternationalTerrorist.com Here's where you can get my favorite t-shirt -- a pic of GW Bush framed with the words, "international terrorist"

~ Palestine Children's Welfare Fund Great folks, and they sell some of my CDs.

~ Rachel Corrie RIP.

~ The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) Free Palestine.

~ SUSTAIN Stop US Tax-Funded Aid to Israel Now

~ Jews Against the Occupation Free Palestine!

~ Resistance Art Support Palestinian artists and buy a calendar.

~ September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows Families of those killed on Sept. 11, 2001, opposed to US war-mongering.

OT funny line:

Driving to work this morning I was surprised to hear a rather conservative commentator, whose name I didn't catch, being described as writing for "SFGate," the usually very-far-left-leaning San Franciso Chronicle website. Anyway, he was saying how Saddam was this guy who had been living for years in a palace, and one day he wakes up to find himself occupying a little two-room mud hut with not much clothing.

"American guys are familiar with that situation," he said. "It's called 'divorce'."

;-)

Jamie Irons

Hi,

I am reading LGF as someone directed me to read the site. So, I am pretty new here, and I must say that I see lots of hate speak and lots of sweeping blanket statements, and that makes it harder to get to the signal through the noise.

Anyway, if reading and posting to LGF makes me a troll, then so be it. You folks seem to want to call me that name, and no harm no foul really, if that floats yer boats.

>> "Just because she is against forbidding the wearing of
>> the habib scarf doesn't mean she is in favor of
>> requiring the wearing of the head scarf."

> Indirectly, she may be:

Then she may be hypocritical, indirectly.

> One of the groups of people
> who supported the ban were the school-aged girls
> who were being forced, not by the state, but by their
> parents (likely their fathers, in reality) and by their
> male colleagues, among whom gang rape is the
> favored method of enforcement.

I now have your word for that heavy statement.

#59
I'm getting that book as soon as it is released in USA. Irshad Manji is awesome, and very incisive about her faith.

@67 Malik al-Malook

Sadly, I think the precept here is in giving them an inch and they will grab a mile. And it makes the rest of the society pay the price of this limitation because they refuse to assimilate. Maybe they should wise up, pack up and go home.

#57 Kenora

I thought BBC meetings looked more like this:
[Link: www.thebricktestament.com...]

@70 Colt

Hey, I didn't know you were me. *lol

San Francisco Chronicle, I meant to write.

I htae mkaign typso.

Jamie Irons

johnx, the phenomenon of gang rape being used in France's Muslim ghettos to coerce certain behavior is well-documented.

johnx you're new here and have some catching up to do. May I suggest you start by studying the Islam we know and discuss. Try starting here with Irshad Manji's The Trouble With Islam. AFter that you can come back and talk to us. We get a lot of Trolls through here and some people are also very impatient with idiots and the uniformed. Therefore it is natural that you'd be labeled a Troll to start as you get up to steam and clear the PC crap rom your vocabulary. I suggest lurking a while to avoid getting smacked in the face whenever you make stupid comments and deserve a good smacking. Meantime welcome.

very-far-left-leaning San Franciso Chronicle website.

Adam Sparks writes for right in the Chron!

#78 quark2

No, I'm me. You're you. ;-)

"American guys are familiar with that situation," he said. "It's called 'divorce'."

Actually I don't think that is the least bit funny. Pathetically horribly true, yes, but funny, no. May I suggest you check out Glen Sack's His Side?

#76
This proposed law is in France, which was founded as a secular country. French law is notedly anti-religion and frowns on all sorts of public religious displays.

A ban on religious head cover (except burqa obvisouly) would be unconstitutional in the USA, France has no such protection of individual rights.

Oh my day is ruined, we're a hate site y'all. *sigh

So says johnx.

Once again, the talking heads condemn any action that undoes the evil being perpetrated throughout the world.

But then again all things are relative, aren't they...there is no evil or good, just tit for tat.

Y'all remember Charles' prayer folks! :)

#69 Colt - For nuns and clergy too?

To anyone trying to "educate" johnx to certain realities, please have a look at (#72) zulubaby's post.

zb, you left off the link to International A.N.S.W.E.R.

Why is anyone trying to change the opinions of someone who links to a Stalinist, anti-Semitic "folk singer"?

Even if Jews are prevented by French law from wearing kippas, they can circumvent it by wearing hats with kippas under them. Many religious Jews do it in Israel, for reasons of fashion - they like hats.

Josh, I really hope it gets translated into French and sold in France. Hebrew would be a good idea too. Also Norwegian, Russian, Chinese, Dari, Farsi, SPanish, Arabic,... actually I can't think of language it shouldn't be translated into. Do you think Mr. Bush has read it yet? I sure hope so.

johnx (#82)

Yes, that was the name. Adam Sparks. Very funny guy...

Which reminds me of something I've been thinking about lately.

Has anybody else noticed that the Left seems to have no sense of humour?

I know, I know, this is a vicious, and wholly unwarranted, generalization.

But is it nonetheless true?

Jamie Irons

This must be an infringement of the rights of someone - or some thing. Saudi Arabia bans cuddly toys

The ban singled out stuffed-animal toys and dolls of brides. It made no mention of male dolls and it was not clear if these were banned as well.

#91 Jamie Irons
It is true, the left has no sense of humor, proportion, or responsibility.

SoCalJustice, I know you are absolutely right but I am an eternal optimist and I always try to give everyone one chance before ignoring them. I promise to try my best not to feed any trolls henceforth.

#92 RC neo-Jew

Grinches!

RC neo-Jew (#92)

You left off this little gem:

The order also prohibited the importation of crucifixes and models of Buddha, the newspaper said.

Talk about hypocrisy!

The ban singled out stuffed-animal toys and dolls of brides.

I dread to think what the Saudis would do to this poor bride if she dared to enter their country. Behead her, I shouldn't wonder.

#87 Renna

See #70.

Re: #74 (Johnx)

No one's asking you to take my word for it. Here's a link to just one story (try a google search - there's more where this came from) describing the treatment many girls receive at the hands of these boys. Please note the line, "Many of the Muslim girls have donned head scarves - more for protection than out of religious conviction."

[Link: 209.157.64.200...]

OT:

Judith (#84) wrote:

Actually I don't think that is the least bit funny. Pathetically horribly true, yes, but funny, no.

Judith, I apologize if I hit a nerve.

But when it comes to having sympathy for the tragedy of divorce, I'm afraid you're rather preaching to the choir in my case.

I am a psychiatrist, and more that three-quarters of my patients, male and female, are divorced. Almost every adolescent I see (I don't see children younger than fourteen) comes from a family shattered by divorce.

Jamie Irons

(#94) Judith

I'm not saying people shouldn't talk to the guy or respond to his posts if they want. But by linking to that site, instead of posting an email address or nothing at all, he's more than hinted what his worldview is.

After all, the site also links to the far-right wing, paleo-conservative site, [Link: www.antiwar.com,...] hosted by quasi-white supremacist Justin Raimondo of Reclaiming the American Right: The Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement fame.

Most of the far left don't know who he is. The one's that do know excuse his other "questionable" ideas because they like how he writes about the war. Talk about an unholy alliance.

RC neo-Jew (#97)

A double-whammy! Poor bear, being banished on what should be such a happy day for her.

#96 zulubaby

I thought crucifixes and other Christian items were banned there, anyway. I know foreign workers who are discovered attending Christian religious services are in deep trouble.

Yes, Saudis insist on being allowed freedom of worship in the West, freedom to build mosques, etc, but forbid the building of churches and non-Muslim religious practice in Saudi Arabia.

It's a bit late, but surely Ebadi deserves serious Idiotarian-of-the-Year consideration.

RC neo-Jew (#103)

Jews aren't even allowed into Saudi Arabia. By the way, Charles now has a thread about the bear ban.

#105 zulubaby

By the way, Charles now has a thread about the bear ban.

So it's time to move up to the thread bare, I mean bear thread.

Malik al-Malook #67,

Does anyone here really see headscarfs as something that should be banned from schools? Or as Ariel pointed out what the Turks do, ban them in schools, courts, government buildings?

I see such a ban as a ridiculous restriction of religious liberty.

I agree actually. However, if France is trying to do it, it's hardly fair for Muslims to say that it is an action against Islam when a Muslim-majority country has taken a similar action. While I think that France is wrong to have a hijab/kippah ban, there is some precedent for it.

#71 Judith

I've read practically zero on Islamic tradition, however that doesn't mean I'm willing to concede an individual choice to express their religion based upon ones observance of it. As I recall the Holy Mother wore a headscarf.

Also, I don't buy the "give in inch and they'll take a mile" either. I like Secular governments, but I'll oppose Secular Fascists forever.

#107 Ariel

I've read arguments that secularism is the French tradition, but the sort of "protect my feelings" legislation is a depressant to me. Muslims playing the victim card is expected, but easily recessed with reason.

I don't see a ban on head scarves as reasonable whatsoever.

johnx:

Welcome to LGF. You've entered an adult site--that means we discuss things like good, evil, right, wrong, and a host of other concepts that you're not likely to encounter at those kiddie sites that you currently promote.

You'll do fine here if you're willing to leave your preconceptions behind (its pretty obvious that your worldview, such as it is, will be shattered in relatively short time). But that's okay, I would guess that most of us who come here now ONCE had liberal inclinations. In fact, there's an often-repeated Churchill quote that addresses such changes of outlook"

"If not liberal at 20, no heart.
If not conservative by 40, no sense."

One thing you'll enjoy is that we deal heavily in FACTS--ask for some links to support something that is said here, and you'll get--in spades! But bewarned: we'll expect the same of you when YOU assert something.

Enjoy yourself--assuming you're brave enough to stick around and learn!

I'll say it again and again: We, in the West and especially in the U.S., are so incredibly lucky, lucky, we are living here and not in these hell holes around the world. We can concentrate on defining our own lives as we want in freedom and safety and privacy and not have to live in fear and compromise, or die. We are just so lucky. That's all I want to say.

I'm confused. I thought this ban was on wearing head scarves in schools only, not in general.

#107 Ariel

It's a tough one. Religious liberty, I'm all for. But the rule, as it is now, applies to all 'overtly' religious apparel. The rule should be unfair equally :-)

johnx,

you are free as anyone to express your opinion here, like anyone else, expect your "facts" to be checked like anyone else, but there is no place for the "Thought Police" here.

If you come here to act as the Thought Police expect to be very unwelcome.

#98 Colt, I did see it. But I figured that by the time I posted a "never mind" you would have posted a "see other post". I'm actually trying to work today and lagging way behind. Must remember, refresh before posting!

(#110) Flaming Sword

At the risk of speaking for others, some of us (myself included) still have liberal inclinations on many issues.

But there's an enormous gap between normal or classic liberals, and the

LLL/anti-globalization/communist/anti-Zionist/anti -Semitic/terrorexcusing/whydotheyhateus/
hateallreligionsbutIslam/BusHitler/Stalinist freakshow

represented by the site that johnx insists on linking to his name.

@108 Malik al-Malook

Fair enough, you can disagree.

The proof is in the pudding.

How long before they start forcing the girls to wear burqas to get around the headscarf ban?

I understand it all to well.

It will be them, not us.

#115 Renna

Work. Interesting concept. I should try it sometime ;-)

fred from AL (#114)

Read my post here ;-)

SoCalJustice #116:

That's a very valid point!

#121 zulubaby

LOL, didn't mean to try to steal your thunder. "A word to the wise..."

I guess he's just not going to learn.

Charles: Thank you. Sorry the story is so short.
An excerpt from her Noble Prize Speech: "Since the advent of Islam, too, Iran's civilization and culture has become imbued and infused with humanitarianism, respect for the life, belief and faith of others, propagation of tolerance and compromise and avoidance of violence, bloodshed and war."

If this is the case, why does she want change in Iran?

fred from AL (#123)

LOL! If anything it's the other way around -- you posted before I did!

#44 Free Speech is only for Uber-Libs [ethos] - I am surprised she didn't just deny it. The thing that got me was that Mort Kondracke was the one who reported it, I don't consider him a conservative. Maybe she thought he would agree? Good for him in repeating it - maybe she and Ramsey Clark can go on tour.

Malik al-Mulook wrote -
"My only issue concerns the full facial covering of the burqa which is quite new as a religious tradition is concerned. The headscarf dates back a few thousand years".

It could go back a few million years. That is feeble argument for or against.

Islam doesn't need reform. That's because they're so fucked up that reform won't help.

Who cares what this pea-brain 'thinks'? Our society isn't the one which hangs people from cranes in public, and whips people for holding hands with their girlfriends. We have nothing to learn from them, and they have everything to learn from us.

Both of your comparisons are insulting....to ducks. ;-)

They're greylag geese. I was calling those types silly geese.

Interesting. Perhaps, when the Twelfth Imam returns, he will reform Islam, at least in its Shia form.

Charles, you were right.

From ISIC Briefings"

Recent reports state that some Muslims in Canada have seized upon the Canadian Arbitration Act to organise a framework for a Muslim service whose decisions, based upon Islamic law (shari’a) will be enforceable by the secular Canadian court system.

And from the Branabus Fund, comments on the above

Finally, Islamists see the whole purpose of Muslim migration to western countries as that of following Muhammad’s example of migration (hijra)
– first to set up an alternative Muslim community under shari’a, then to expand it in order to bring all of society under the political and legal framework of Islam. While Islamists may still be a minority in most Muslim
communities, they are a growing force and the most activist members of Muslim society, seeing themselves as the vanguard of the Islamic revolution
that seeks to impose shari’a on everyone everywhere.
------------

Shirin Ebadi, like any good Muslim is busy practising Taqqiya.

And some more

[Link: www.globeandmail.com...]

Well, allow me to re-affirm my earlier statement.

Muslims I would shake hands with are Sheikh Palazzi, Irshad Manji and those like them. Anyone falling short of their standards (quite reasonable ones) can kiss my hairy ass in hell.

# 133 Q

Fouad Ajami also comes to mind, especially after The Nation went to such a fit to try and discredit him

Can a Menstruating Woman Read the Qur’an?

[Link: www.islamonline.net...]

Yup. Islam doesnt need reform.

126 Baldy

From Shirin Ebadi's speech

"Since the advent of Islam, too, Iran's civilization and culture has become imbued and infused with humanitarianism, respect for the life, belief and faith of others, propagation of tolerance and compromise and avoidance of violence, bloodshed and war."

A few days ago I received a letter from a Zorastrian, one of the original inhabitants of Persia. Included is a recent translation of an exchange of letters between the King of Persia and the Arab invader, some 1300 years ago. First, the pre-amble from letter

Some 1300 years ago the mighty Persian Empire, far bigger than U.S.A., was infiltrated by a band of marauding Arabs from Saudi Arabia. The Persian king, Shah Yazdegar III was warned about this insurgency but being a powerful king of such a huge empire he remaind complacent and ignored the insurgents. The killing and fighting techniques used by the insurgents were totally unknown to civilized nations who fought on proper `battlefields'. These invaders were full of zeal because they were told that whatever they captured in this `heavenly land' was theirs to keep. 400 years later almost all of the Persian Empire was converted from their ancient reflective and progressive Zoroastrian religion to Islam. Yes, it took 400 years but Islam did succeed with patience, guerilla tactics and unfair laws such as higher taxes for non-Muslims and a unique inheritance law which only allowed inheritance to flow to the Muslim child. So it was virtually impossible for any citizen to remain a non-muslim lest he/she lose everything.

These translations of two historic letters, written about 1300 years ago when the Arab armies defeated the Persians, are self-explanatory

From: Omar Ibn Al Khatab Khalifat Al Muslemin
To: Yazdgird III Shahanshah of Persian Empire

Yazdgird, I see not a fruitful future for you & your nation unless you accept my offer & commit Bei'at (Joining with Khalifat & bringing Islam). Once upon a time your land ruled half the known world but what has it come down to now? Your troops are defeated in all fronts & your nation is bound to collapse. I offer you a way to rescue yourself. Start praying to a mono God, a single union God, the only God who created everything in the universe. We bring you & the world his message, he who is the true God. Stop your Fire Worship, command your nation to stop their Fire Worship which is false; join us by joining the truth. Worship Allah O Akbar the only true God, The creator of universe. Worship to Allah & accept Islam as your salvation. End your Pagan ways & your false worships now & bring Islam so you can accept Allah O Akbar as your savior. By doing so, you will find the only way to your survival & peace for Persians. If you know what is best for Ajam (Arabic term for Persians meaning Retarded & Weird), you will choose this path. Bei'at is the only way.

Allah O Akbar
signed,
Khalifat Al Muslemin
Omar Ibn Al Khatab

And here’s Shah Yazdgird III, famous response to Omar:

From: Shah of Shahs, Shah of Persia and Beyond, Shah of many Kingdoms, Shah of Aryans and Non Aryans, Shah of Persians and many other races as well as Arabs, Shahanshah of Persian Empire, Yazdgird III Sassanid

To: Omar Ibn Al Khatab, Khalifat of Tazi (Persian term for Arabs, meaning Arabian Hound Dogs)In the name of Ahura Mazda, creator of Life & Intelligence,

You in your letter wrote that you want to direct us towards your God, Allah O Akbar, without having the true knowledge of who we are & what we worship! It is amazing that you occupy the position of Khalifat (Ruler) of Arabs, yet your knowledge is the same as a lowly Arab rambler, roaming in deserts of Arabia, & same as a desert tribal man!

"Little Man", you offer me to worship a united & single God without knowing that it has been thousands of years that Persians worship the mono God & they pray to him Five Times a day! In this land of culture & art this has been the normal path of life for years.

When we established the tradition of hospitality & good deeds in the world & we waved the flag of "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" in our hands, you & your ancestors were roaming the deserts, eating Lizards, for you had nothing else to feed yourselves on. And you were burying your innocent daughters alive (an old Arab tradition, cause they preferred male children to female)!

Tazi people have no value for God's creatures! You behead God's children, even the POWs (Prisoners of War), Rape Women, bury your daughters alive, attack the Caravans, mass murder, kidnap people's wives & steal their property! Your hearts are made of stone. We condemn all these Evil which you do. How can you teach us Godly Ways when you commit these actions?

You tell me to stop my Fire Worship? Us, Persians see the Love of the Creator & power of inventor in the light of Sun & warmth of Fire. Light & Warmth of the Sun & Fire makes us see the light of truth & warms our hearts to the creator & to one another. It helps us to be kind to one another, it enlightens us & makes us keep Mazda's Flame, alive in our hearts. Our lord is Ahura Mazda & it is strange that you people also, just discovered him & named him Allah O Akbar! But we are not the same as you, we are not in the same level as you. We help other human beings, we spread love among humanity, we spread Good throughout the Earth. We have been conquering other lands but always with respect for other cultures throughout the whole world for thousands of years, yet you in the name of Allah invade other men's lands and mass murder the people, create famine, fear & poverty for others, you create Evil in the name of Allah. Who is responsible for all this catastrophe?

Is it Allah who commands you to murder, pillage & to destroy?

Is it you the followers of Allah who do this in his name?

Or

Is it both?

You have risen from heat of the deserts & burnt out infertile lands with no resources, you want to teach people the love of God by your military campaigns & the power of your Swords! You are Desert Savages, yet you want to teach Urban people like us who lived in the cities for thousands of years, the love of God! We have thousands of years of culture behind us, a powerful tool indeed! Tell us? With all your military campaigns, barbarism, murder & pillage in the name of Allah O Akbar, what have you taught to this Muslim Army? What knowledge have you taught the Muslim that you also insist on teaching it to non Muslim? What culture have you learned from your Allah, now that you want to force-teach it to others?

Alas, Oh Alas...... that today our Persian Armies of Ahura have been defeated from your recently Allah Worshiping Armies. Now, our people have to worship the same God, the same Five times a day, but forced by the sword to call him Allah & pray to him in Arabic, because your Allah only understands Arabic!

I suggest, you & your gang of bandits pack up & move back to your deserts where they are used to live. Take them back where they are used to the burning heat of the sun, tribal life, eating Lizards & drinking Camel Milk. I forbid you to let your band of thieves loose in our fertile lands, civilized cities & our glorious nation. Don't turn these "beasts with hearts of stone" loose, to mass murder our people, kidnap our women & children, rape our wives & send our daughters to Mecca as slaves! Don't let them do these crimes in the name of Allah O Akbar, put a stop to your criminal behavior.

Aryans are forgiving, warm, hospitable, & decent people and everywhere they went, they have spread seeds of friendship, love, knowledge & truth; therefore, they shall not punish you & your people for your pirate ways & criminal acts.

I beg you to remain with your Allah O Akbar in your deserts & do not move close to our civilized cities, for your believes are "Much Fearful" & your behavior is "Most Barbaric"!

signed,

Yazdgird III Sassanid

One notes, that this is exact the opposite of what Ebadi claims for Islam in Persia.

Re:#136
Apologies for not putting the link. I could not find but have now.

[Link: www.sumka.org...]

And some more stuff on social justice, tolerance, compassion etc., that Islam has brought to Iran. You know the stuff that Shirin Ebadi quotes

[Link: www.sumka.org...]

#135 DP

Can a Menstruating Woman Read the Qur’an?

Have you ever try to tell a menstruating woman what to do or not do?

139 Engineer

It would be most impolite to do so. Secondly, the idea would not occur to me. And finally, I probably would not know and it is none of my business anyway.

But the fact remains that these matters are of importance to the RoP and such questions are posed to their 'scholars' for guidance. It is the very idea that such questions can even be posed, is what fills me with despair.

Engineer (#139)

LOL!!

norar (#134):

Yep, anyone who makes al-Nation to vomit poisonous bile with such intensity must be doing something right.

And to the dhimmi jewboy Adam Shatz: fuck you with a rusty poker, kapo.

DP (#316):

It's precisely because Iran had such a developed culture before the smothering darkness of Islam fell upon it, that there is reasonable hope for its return to civilization now.

Arabs, on the other hand, were a bunch of savages before the advent of Islam. Since Islam is not, to put it mildly, exactly known for bringing forth the best traits in human nature and culture (quite the the opposite) and for encouraging progress, that's pretty much where the (Muslim) Arabs remain nowadays. With few notable exceptions such as Fouad Ajami.

139 Engineer

lol

#12, #13, #20

I think France is drawing the wrong line here too but I think their "secular" only response to the atrocities commited on both sides during the Reformation is not as satisfactory as our Constitutional approach. Nevertheless, Chirac is picking a fight he may not win, and when the Islamic Jihadis start blowing up buses in Paris, the appeasement will begin in earnest and will not stop. If Chirac continues the fight, won't it be interesting when the first Islamic nuke, which the French have relentlessly helped to create, is set off in France?

#142 Q

It is my understanding that Fouad Ajami is of Persian descent, as betrayed by his name 'Ajami'.

rockman (#145):

If so, QED.

"what it needs is to be better understood and to be interpreted more intelligently"

Who says she's talking about the West better understanding Islam? Maybe she's talking about Muslims, such as the Mullahs of Iran, better understanding Islam.

But there can be no good news coming out a Muslim country and no good people either, unless they completely reject Islam. LGF doesn't allow it.

Gordo, please, shaddap.

> #65 Malik al-Mulook 12/17/2003 10:15AM PST
> johnx: Are you new?

Yes. I am new to this site. I posted how I came to LGF yesterday.

> Comments like "get rid of the man creation 'god'" shall not be fed.

There was no expectation either way, don't feel obliged to censor or promote any idea on my behalf or against it. It is my belief that religion tends to be a trauma
inflicted on children by adults.

I repest the right to believe, but I reserve my right to disagree.

> #66 mickthemick 12/17/2003 10:16AM PST
> #51 JohnX
> Here's another noted LGF comment for you: FOAD.

I presume you mean "fuck off and die". This is the second time someone has said this to me. I did not treat you in this way and I do not deserve to be treated this way.

Just to be clear, when you say "fuck off and die", are you making a serious threat?

----

I was told to read LGF by a friend, perhaps to see another point of view.

So, having done so, I am really getting skewerd for bothing to pay attention to this site.

Am I an unwelcome audient?

I am kinda on the fence about alot of issues, and I am fairly ignorant to lots of facts, I recognize this, but I think that its possible to reason with me. However, if I am unwelome, perhaps there isn't really anything for me here and I should simply ignore the site.

My story will be "Yeah, I've looked at LGF but was treated rudely by the regulars, so I don't care to pay attention anymore."

Perhaps if you welcomed new people a bit, you would have an easier time
winning someone over onto your side of an issue. Try using humor, making someone
laugh is a quick and effective way of winning them over to your side,
however being vitriolic and mean will just alienate people.

No one's asking you to take my word for it. Here's a link to just one story (try a google search - there's more where this came from) describing the treatment many girls receive at the hands of these boys. Please note the line, "Many of the Muslim girls have donned head scarves - more for protection than out of religious conviction."

thanks for the article. very horrific.

( [Link: www.iht.com...] )

johnx you're new here and have some catching up to do. May I suggest you start by studying the Islam we know and discuss.

Reasonable suggestion. You are correct, I am new here.

However, if time here means accepting condoning the virtriol and hate I see here, then I do not wish to remain.

Try starting here with Irshad Manji's The Trouble With Islam.

I'll give it a look.

AFter that you can come back and talk to us.

Perhaps.

We get a lot of Trolls through here and some people

Define "Troll"? I mean, I know what the word means in fantasy, but how are you using it?

are also very impatient with idiots and the uniformed.

Hmm, three possible descriptions offered, I'll choose the latter. Not sure I need to be surrounded by the impatient, nor do I want to...

Therefore it is natural that you'd be labeled a Troll to start as you get up to steam and clear the PC crap rom your vocabulary.

I'll try not to interpret that as sanctimoneous, rude, and condemming.

I suggest lurking a while to avoid getting smacked in the face whenever you make stupid comments and deserve a good smacking. Meantime welcome.

Right. Farewell.

johnx (#82)

Yes, that was the name. Adam Sparks. Very funny guy...

Which reminds me of something I've been thinking about lately.

Has anybody else noticed that the Left seems to have no sense of humour?

I know, I know, this is a vicious, and wholly unwarranted, generalization.

But is it nonetheless true?

Jamie Irons

No, humor spans across the partisan lines.

The website that johnx links to (with his nick) refers to "Herr Bush" and, amongst other things, websites like ...

That's right. I like David Rovics music, who's website I linked to and who you are now judging me by..

I like Miles Davis music. I like Phil Ochs. I like King Crimson. I like Leonard Cohen.

That's who you are dealing with here musical taste wise, but I am open minded so all sorts of things pass by my head. You may try listening to some of David's songs:

Here is a David Rovics song: I Remember Warsaw

First they occupied our country
Then they spread their vicious lies
Evil propaganda
Filled our ranks with double-dealing spies
They cordoned off a reservation
Built a wall all around it
Packed us all into this ghetto
And our city'd never be as the Nazis found it

At first no one believed it
Just what horrors lay in store
The sound of boots upon the staircase
Of leather gloves upon the door
Some of us they sent to labor
To slave for them to the last breath
Most of us they sent to Auschwitz
Half a million people sent to a pointless, early death

There were those of us who worked with them
A desperate effort to survive
Even when our numbers were so few
Maybe sixty thousand left alive
And people said we had no chances
By then we all knew they were right
It was 1943
And we, the walking dead, made up our minds to fight

(Chorus)
I remember Warsaw
We stood side by side
The Star of David flew above the ghetto
There we lived and there we died

We cleansed the ghetto of their agents
Dug a maze of tunnels underground
We begged the Allies, give us weapons
But empty words were all we found
So we saved each precious bottle
Made bombs of rags and gasoline
And in this script of mindless carnage
We waited in the shadows for the final scene

It was the month of April
The SS came marching in
Singing songs to praise Der Fuehrer
And all his Aryan kin
To see the shock upon their faces
We'd show the world on this day
We'd not go like sheep off to the slaughter
With the last blood running through our hearts we'd make the devils pay

(Chorus)

We had taken our positions
With each escape route planned
We rained down molotovs upon them
With each retreat another stand
Yes, we killed the Nazi bastards
They lay dying by the score
We made each scarce bullet count
And as the fascist demons ran we killed some more

For one full month the battle raged
And the word spread all around
That it wasn't over
'Til every building had been levelled to the ground
I am the ghost of the apocalypse
And these few words I have to tell
Let it never be forgotten
That for four long weeks we fought and we stood up before we fell

(Chorus)

JohnX - you should stick around. There are lots of regulars on this site who are really quick on the FOAD draw. Any questioning is treated with contempt.

Stick around and see what happens.

To anyone trying to "educate" johnx to certain realities, please have a look at (#72) zulubaby's post.

zb, you left off the link to International A.N.S.W.E.R.

Why is anyone trying to change the opinions of someone who links to a Stalinist, anti-Semitic "folk singer"?

David Rovics has Jewish lineage.

"I Remember Warsaw" - David Rovics

First they occupied our country
Then they spread their vicious lies
Evil propaganda
Filled our ranks with double-dealing spies
They cordoned off a reservation
Built a wall all around it
Packed us all into this ghetto
And our city'd never be as the Nazis found it

At first no one believed it
Just what horrors lay in store
The sound of boots upon the staircase
Of leather gloves upon the door
Some of us they sent to labor
To slave for them to the last breath
Most of us they sent to Auschwitz
Half a million people sent to a pointless, early death

There were those of us who worked with them
A desperate effort to survive
Even when our numbers were so few
Maybe sixty thousand left alive
And people said we had no chances
By then we all knew they were right
It was 1943
And we, the walking dead, made up our minds to fight

(Chorus)
I remember Warsaw
We stood side by side
The Star of David flew above the ghetto
There we lived and there we died

We cleansed the ghetto of their agents
Dug a maze of tunnels underground
We begged the Allies, give us weapons
But empty words were all we found
So we saved each precious bottle
Made bombs of rags and gasoline
And in this script of mindless carnage
We waited in the shadows for the final scene

It was the month of April
The SS came marching in
Singing songs to praise Der Fuehrer
And all his Aryan kin
To see the shock upon their faces
We'd show the world on this day
We'd not go like sheep off to the slaughter
With the last blood running through our hearts we'd make the devils pay

(Chorus)

We had taken our positions
With each escape route planned
We rained down molotovs upon them
With each retreat another stand
Yes, we killed the Nazi bastards
They lay dying by the score
We made each scarce bullet count
And as the fascist demons ran we killed some more

For one full month the battle raged
And the word spread all around
That it wasn't over
'Til every building had been levelled to the ground
I am the ghost of the apocalypse
And these few words I have to tell
Let it never be forgotten
That for four long weeks we fought and we stood up before we fell

(Chorus)

JohnX - you should stick around. There are lots of regulars on this site who are really quick on the FOAD draw. Any questioning is treated with contempt.

Ya know, when I go to the pro-Palestinian sites and say that suicide bombing is counter productive and immoral, I get chewed out in a similar fashion.

I am not sure why I should do either, but I think there is a lot of anger and hatred over this divisive issue.

If someone could point me to a definition of "troll" in the vernacular, I'd appreciate it. I am wondering what I am being accused of doing in plain terms.

I think my mistake was pointing out the anger here, or lamely trying to, that's when things went south.

Okay, I found a definition for the "troll" label/accusation:

"troll
An outrageous message posted to a newsgroup or mailing list or message board to bait people to answer. Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it.

Also, the person who posts such messages."

My comments were heartfelt and genuine, and were not intended to "outrage". I did comment with the understanding that someone may or may not reply, but the comments were not dishonest nor intended to outrage or harass.

However its not up to me how I am perceived, so I extend my apologies for any perceived harassment.

johnx (#157),

First off: "Troll is a newsgroup/bbs/forum term meaning one who drops in a group, posts something outrageous to provoke massive arguments and then sits back and watches the flames."

I think my mistake was pointing out the anger here, or lamely trying to, that's when things went south.

You're new, so don't be so quick to judge.

If you walked into a gym and 30 guys training to be boxers were squaring off all day long to punch the crap out of each other, you might see that as a place filled with anger and hate, while it's not.

LGF is a boxing gym, don't be surprised if when you climb into the ring to stop the "anger" you get the shit knocked out of you, by both boxers.

And anyone who wants to can spar all day long here. You have to be fighting pretty dirty to get thrown out.

JohnX - don't give up your principles or your right to engage in meaningful discussion regarding these issues on LGF. There are those who (the FOAD gang) who want LGF to be an amen corner for rabid Islamophobia. People like you can bring some balance.

And show up the real thoughtful people from the poseurs like Zulubaby. Notice in #148 she doesn't bother trying to answer my post in #147, but just tells me to "shaddap." A far more trollish type of response than anything I have ever posting.

regarding Gordon's position

comatose

Oh Gordon, you really are the most humourless tool. Some of your posts are so dumb they don't deserve anything more than a shaddup. I've wasted enough time on you in the past only to have you run away or attempt to change the subject.

People like you can bring some balance.

Something you've never managed to do because you're usually laughed off the thread. Are you depressed, Gordon, or just one of those dull people who can't find anything to smile about?

#162: On cue, Zulubaby, Defender of the (LGF) Faith, comes to the rescue!

Be sure to drive JohnX and Gordon off of LGF so you can wallow in your seething Islamophobia.

Gordon, what you don't seem to realize is that you're completely irrelevant.

#164 Zulubaby: I "dont realize" it because I am not irrelevant. I represent the reason and sanity of the real world (not the LGF world, which, even you must admit, is more than somewhat skewed from the real world). While I don't claim to be a great communicator, I have a message which LGF needs to hear, even if some of its members don't want to, because it questions their blinkered, seething view of the world

Gordon, you're not the "voice of reason" that you think you are. Sorry about that old chap. And don't insult me, or anyone else here, by saying that our viewpoints are blinkered. I spend a lot of time reading and researching and learning. That you stubbornly refuse to face reality makes you dumb, not reasonable. You think everyone here is "racist!" "bigot!" "Islamaphobe!" -- that's all you see. Time for you to confront your own biases.

I represent the reason and sanity of the real world

LMAO!

Following the comments, I'd like to post a Hadith again, because it is so obnoxious:

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0071:

It is reported on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah said: None of you is a believer till I am dearer to him than his child, his father and the whole of mankind.

This is sick: all that is bad comes into it. There is a fear of mortality here, and a wish to interpose the prophet himself between a suckling mother and her infant.

Plus the prophet mistaking himself for his god.

This Hadith is evidence of psychosis.

Ebadi lost any credibility she had to Iranians seeking freedom when she decided to focus on the same classical tirades as the Mullahs, namely Israel and the West. Maybe we are too bold in reminding her that other priorities await at home, where Khamenei and his mercenaries continue to enforce an unpopular and criminal regime.

It's a shame, for she's proving herself to be of the useless reformist camp that has only served as the smiling face of the Islamic Republic since 1997. While she did defend some of the students arrested during the 1999 demonstrations, I wonder why she failed to discuss them in her speech.

On the other hand, I do understand that she is facing enough death threats as it is, without even openly challenging the hardliners. It's much more complicated than it seems, and time will tell what her true goals are.

Here's an interesting article about Ebadi's stance:

Iran and Human Rights: Talk Is Cheap

#136 DP - Thank you for the info. I have read enough in various places to tell me that there is no love lost between Persians (Iran) and Arabs. I have often wondered why.

Iranians are discovering a pre-Islamic history. Perhaps this will catch on round the non-Arabic Islamic world. Hope so.