That's the proverbial pot calling the kettle black!

"We regard this as an extremist decision aimed at preventing the development of Islamic values" in France,

values like what? please explain.

/sarcasm

Wall Street Journal's opinionjournal.com has an editorial about the headscarves issue today. Title: Veiled Threat. Subtitle: Jacques Chirac courageously takes on little girls in headscarves.

Bwahahahahahaha!

WSJ Editorial page - Free registration required

What's next, the North Korean government denouncing the Patriot Act?

IRAN is calling France extremist? Give me a break. I have lots of words for France, but extremist is not one of them.

On the other hand, anybody who gets a rise like that out of Iran is doing something right.

And the development of CHRISTIAN values in iran, saudi arabia etc ? What about the fact that we can't build CATHEDRALS in there ? Extremism ?
There are shit of mosques everywhere in Europe, built with the intent to have a network to support terrorism.
Extremism ?

How simplisme This will do nothing but serve to radicalize French Muslims. They won't do squat to help us with the jihadis, but they will bully little girls.

Perhaps France could amend their laws to allow the followers of Islam to be subject to the same type of religeous stricture that is practiced in moslem countries. It would sure stop the influx of moslems into the west. hopefully. A sort of reverse dhimmitude, if you will!

Well, ordinarily I would discount anything coming from the Mullahs. However, this statement happens to concern an issue squarely in the area of expertise: exremism.

Iranian seething/whining is my second favorite type, right after Palestinian.

And Iran's record of treating their religious minorities is?

Hypocrites.

The problem is they are banning yarmulke, this is anti semetic, they are equating yarmulke and burka's, they know that the muslems are violent, yet they put the jews in the same bag.Also the Yarmulke has more of a religious fondation. The Burka came from Muhammed he made his wives wear them.

Amir Taheri on the headscarf issue:

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

I do not support this ban of religious symbols in France: I think it goes against the individual liberty of chosing the preferred outfit.

But when IRAN, where religious police can beat you in the street for non-compliance with Islamic dress code, calls another country "extremist"... this is absolutely ridiculous, grotesque.

OK, Let me see if I got this straight...It's extremist to ban the hijab in France, but it's not extremist to ban not wearing one in Iran?
Thankfully, the (il)logic of the Religion of Misogyny­­™ escapes me. I'll worry when it starts to make sense.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't wearing a crucifix or a Star of David in public in Iran be a stoning offense?

Regardless of how one feels about the French business, the Iranian ayatollahs are the last people in the world to be lecturing anyone about either extremism or religious freedom.

Today in Paris:

Thousands Protest in Paris Against Muslim Veil Ban

PARIS (Reuters) - An estimated 3,000 protesters, including many young women in Muslim headscarves, demonstrated on Sunday against the French government's plan to ban overt religious symbols in schools.

I still think the real reason Chirac opposed the hijab is that it allows the French people to delude themselves that they are not on the road to dhimmitude in their own country.

There is a certain irony in Iran calling any nation extreme.

I never thought that I'll agree with ayatollahs, but I do. The ban on "wearing religious symbols in schools" is extremism. It's no differenct from ayatollah prescribing Iranian girls wearing the scarf to schools, or Saudis prohibiting wearing any religious symbols but Muslim.

And it is ironic that ayatollahs are the ones to rise the voice against another French surrender, to atheist dictate this time.

Don't ban the hijab. Ban those who make women wear them.

#18

Absolutely. And girls wearing hijab are a good lead for starters. ;)

#16 Ed Moran:1/8th Jewish (paternally) for Channukah

I still think the real reason Chirac opposed the hijab is that it allows the French people to delude themselves that they are not on the road to dhimmitude in their own country.

The situation is even worse in other countries in EU, especially Holland. I was in Rotterdam about a year ago, and a Dutch census estimated that sometime between 2020-2030, an absolute majority of people living in the Netherlands will be Muslims immigrants from N. Africa or their descendants.

I have mixed feelings about this. I think my opinion comes down to this: I'm glad it's happeningto France, but don't want to see it in America. They're secular anyway, and we're based on Judeo-Christian beliefs (for now).

Plus, we're more responsible a society than any in Europe. We're the adults amid the chattering pack of international kiddies.

Chirac is actually right when it comes to the Islamists. Like the swastika armband, the hijab is the symbol of the fascist hatred engendered by radical Islam. Like the sickening hatred in the PA areas, the Islamist cesspool of hatred is incubating in France and is showing its signs through the hatred emanating from the mosques, attacks on Jews, brainwashed hijabbers and vitriolic attacks on anything non-Islamic.

I got an idea for the Muslim female s- wear Hats like the french did long ago. If you really need to just cover your hair, a wide brim hat would do perfectly well.

But if you insist on a potato sack for dress... well,...

They're revolting in Paris:
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

In the story, Reuters is trying to make it look like the Muslims are protesting the ban on veils, crosses, and kippas.

But as we all know, the French Muslim community would only reject a ban on kippas because it makes it that much harder to identify their targets.

The shame is that religious Jews and Christians who want to display their affection for their Lord and Savior are punished because of the hatred and irratinoality arising from Islam.

I am against the ban for the simple reason it can cause a backlash of extremism and force Muslim kids into Islamic school (medrasas) where they won't be exposed to ideas of tolerance. It will be very difficult to control what is being taught there. Also, if head coverings are banned in work places, what about Orthodox Jewish women who have their heads covered?

That is precisely the point. Madrassas should be shut down and those who run them should be booted out of Europe. There's room for those creeps in Guantanomo Bay because those who teach and run the madrassas are the terrorist, fascist enemy who we are fighting. France should get the gendarmes in their and beat them with billy clubs.

Chaya (#26)

This ban is in public schools, not workplaces.

The Secular state is a product of the Protestant-Catholic wars of religion. Only when Secularism was adopted, were clerical impediments to what became the Industrial Revolution, squelched. All but the brain-dead and the subservient to State Department dictum, know that muslims are prohibited from accepting a Secular state, accept as a means to shariah tyranny.

[Link: english.daralhayat.com...]

Read how these muslim subversives treat their French benefactor:

[Link: www.iifhr.com...]

DEPOPULATE CIVILIZATION OF ALL MUSLIMS. LET THOSE SAVAGES WALLOW IN THEIR SOCIAL IDIOCY ON THE ARABIAN CESS-POOL PENINSULA

On the Dutch news they said this demonstration is probably organised with help from a foreign country. French muslim organisations had nothing to do with it.

#24 Laurence

They're revolting in Paris

I completely agree!!

"This decision goes against civil rights and will undermine the image of France in the Islamic world," he added.

Who cares?

Anyway, I think this ban on head scarves is stupid, it doesn't address the problem of the aggression displayed by the "North African immigrants". This is nothing more than a band-aid. As per usual everybody else has to suffer too because the Muslims can't behave themselves and cry about "discrimination" every other minute. It would be unfair to ban head scarves and not ban other religious symbols, but my sympathy for the Islamists ran out a long time ago. They will trample on every bit of progress, every bit of freedom that we have in order to bring their death cult to the democratic countries whose laws and systems they abuse. France has created a monster and banning head scarves in public schools is a far cry from addressing the mess they're in.

Like Jaffar and a number of other of posters have pointed out, this hijab ban is counterproductive and silly. Muslim women wearing headscarves is the least of our worries. I wouldn't care if someone's religion called for them to go about wearing Carmen Miranda-style headdresses, as long as they left me and mine alone.

This is simply another sign of French wussiness - we'll beat the hell out of a housecat, while ignoring the tiger in the living room.

I support the ban for one reason: it will intensify and accelerate the inevitable showdown between the Islamists and the French government, ultimately forcing the latter to join the war to save France from sharia.

You mean the French are going have to reap what they sew?

Islam will corrode France from within. Good.

Free Speech (#35)

Islam will corrode France from within. Good.

It is not good, it is a pity. Unfortunately France has allowed things to get this far and are doing too little, too late. It's sad to see what has become of France and this is only the beginning.

Chirac is such an idiot that he's actually forced me to be on Iran's side.

The new law bans crucifixes as well as yarmulkes and hijabs.

Related - I wish HWSNBN was still here, so he could rant about the Catholic/Jewish conspiracy behind Hispanic immigration to the USA.

Donna -

I wouldn't care if someone's religion called for them to go about wearing Carmen Miranda-style headdresses

Hmmm...the "houris" turned out to be "raisins"...maybe section on "head covering" in the Quran might turn out to be a Carmen Miranda hat?

How strange. A little while ago I read that hundreds of Muslim women were demonstrating in France to protest the head scarf ban. Suddenly it's become thousands!

There are only 2000 school girls in the WHOLE COUNTRY that wear the scarves? What's that, like one per school? You'd think from the brouhaha that it was more like 50% of muslim girls or something. I had not idea the fraction of wearers was so tiny...

Frank IBC: I'm having a good time imaging Arafish in a Carmen Miranda hat. Of course, in his case, the fruit would be rotten and there would be swarms of flies trailing him. Still, rotten fruit would be an improvement over his dirty socks and stinky feet!

#39 Claire

You'd think from the brouhaha that it was more like 50% of muslim girls or something. I had not idea the fraction of wearers was so tiny...

You have to consider that the vast majority of the those who wear the hijab are concentrated on the outskirts of major cities; not evenly distributed throughout the country. I think the relatively low number (2000) can be largely attributed to the fact that while hijab bans are about to be formalized as a matter of law, there has been an informal, ad-hoc ban in place for some time, although this varies from place to place and school to school.

#40 Donna V

Arafat would draw flies fruit or no fruit.

Like Jaffar and a number of other of posters have pointed out, this hijab ban is counterproductive and silly. Muslim women wearing headscarves is the least of our worries.

I have to agree. For me the biggest concern was the blurb that I saw on CNN, calling this the step that was being taken to solve the problem.

I don't even see this as contributing to dealing with Muslim extremists in France. Its just gonna give them a rally cry.

That the Islamic head scarves are being banned is only the way the media is spinning this outrageous affront to freedoms in France.
The truth is that any and all conspicuous religious dress is banned.
The real target of the law is the Jewish yarmulke.
This is a measure intended to quiet anti-Semetic attacks throughout France that have been on the rise of late. But of course, the media can't print a headline that reports anti-Semetism coming from Chirac. So they twist it and call it a ban on the Islamic head scarves.
France is behaving in cowardly fashion. Rather than this draconian measure, Chirac ought to attack the true menace to France, Europe and the world; hatred of Jews.

“We regard this as an extremist decision aimed at preventing the development of Islamic values” in France.

and?

26 Chaya 12/21/2003 12:23PM PST

I am against the ban for the simple reason it can cause a backlash of extremism and force Muslim kids into Islamic school (medrasas) where they won't be exposed to ideas of tolerance.

I favor the ban because it will force a showdown. This current brouhaha is but a little taste.

I agree, the French are revolting, and yes, the Iranian complaint is deliciously hypocritical.

The irony is that most hijab wearers in France are there illegally.

What Chirac-Osirac should have said, if he truly meant it is, "You don't like our laws? You are welcome to leave."

OT, but read what prominent dhimmicrats have to say on RotK. Note: satire, it is.

#34 and #46

I live in France and agree - a showdown is inevitable...

The incidents already happening : as the "arrangements" for fundamentalist Muslin women who insist upon being separated from the men at a public pool in Lille

fundamentalist Muslim women refusing to have men doctors examine them when getting care in public hospitals, often trying to refuse them even in the emergency wards

fundamentalist Muslim families questionning the public school curriculum - health class (sex ed), certain history class curricula - the shoah..

maybe a "showdown" will clear the air...
I am for the ban.

#30 Peter Hayo

On the Dutch news they said this demonstration is probably organised with help from a foreign country. French muslim organisations had nothing to do with it.

That explains it, no? Of course, they also imported a few thousands demonstartors from this "foreign country", or can it be that French Muslims act on behalf of the foreign country?

The issue of the 'head scarves' is not about the 'head scarves' per se, but about 'creeping Muslimization' of France and how to start stopping it.

Nicolas Sarkozy and even the Imam of the Great Mosque of Paris himself, Dalil Boubakeur, has warned "French society has to wake up. No one is safe from the Islamists". Dalil Boubakeur is also Chairman of the French Muslim Council.

Chirac is nothing if not a crafty politician and since the fight in France is about Muslims pushing the limits of secular France to the brink, each day something more. Chirac has chosen to make a stand on the issue of the 'head scarf' as a symbol of the larger problem, aggressive Islamization of France through population explosion (demographics) and its lack assimilation into the cherished secular values of the French.

With the backing of those stalwart "Colettes" of modern day France, the French actresses (who abhor the arrogance of the hijab), Chirac is saying no more visible symbols of piety (which must of course, include the other religions, unfortunately, who were minding their own business).

So now it begins...the squeals of rage from the Imams of Iran in all their dark thunderous evil, raging about France being "extreme". Chirac knows this is going to happen. He's past caring. He's seen the EU tank this month, the political situation re Islam is threatening, to say the least and Chirac figures if he's going to have a fight he can't handle, better to have it now, when Britain and America might still help, than leave it for another five years and KNOW France is lost.

The head scarf is, as Charles is wont to say, "the camel's nose inside the tent of militant French Islam's intent."

#51

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Elizabeth.

The French site Liberté-chérie, home of a new association determined to fight for reform in our country, goes even further in an article

[Link: www.liberte-cherie.com...]

which is only available in French, I believe, but which argues that the goals of the Trotsky sympathizers here (yes, hard to believe, isn't it?) are in line with those of the "Islamistes "(radical, fundamentalist Muslims)

---to put it briefly, the destruction of the Western societies with their system of capitalism.

Iran is angry. The French now have no alternative but to appease.

The headscarves should not be banned. People should have the right, to raise their children as they see fit. I support vouchers in America for that very reason. The problem with France is its insistence on pursuing its economic interests in places like Iraq without regard to the greater moral and political implications, its failure to defend its citizens against fanatic Islamic attackers, its anti-Israel policies and its need to attack the USA for its ability to do all of the above while France fails.

Let France pursue a rule peace of the brave, instead of trying to force a cowards peace down everyone else's throat. If they did a few girls in hijabs won't seem like such an issue.

#52 Alice

the goals of the Trotsky sympathizers ---to put it briefly, the destruction of the Western societies with their system of capitalism.

I think that following into the steps of the Islamaniacs and militant Commies toward intolerance of religious expression (wearing "religious symbols" was prohibited by the Soviets) distroys the fabric of western world as successfully as terrorism does. What is "religious symbol" for outsider is religious expression, or prerquisite for the follower of particular religion. And who has right to decide whether, when and how it should be used?

Also the ban on the scarf sends the signal that the west is intimidated by Islam, and would rather promote than stop militant incitement by Islamaniacs. Moreover, their claim of danger to Muslim values from the state based on "man-made" laws would become more plausible for the Muslim public.

Also, I don't see even one valid reason to ban wearing "religious symbols" in France at this particular day and time. In this respect the one presented in #44 is as, and probably even more, plausible as any.

#40 Donna V.

Arafish in a Carmen Miranda hat would be a twisted delight.

Though I'd be happier if he were in a burqa.

And happier still if he were in a coffin.

Saddam in a Carmen Miranda hat would be great, too.

Or maybe they can invite that man with the sandal to whack him upside de head a few times?

Henry -

The ban...will intensify and accelerate the inevitable showdown between the Islamists and the French government, ultimately forcing the latter to join the war to save France from sharia.

I'm sure the French will be victorious against burqa-clad women, as they have been against every other adversary. {snargle*}

*snargle = contemptuous snort + giggle

Ed M. -

I still think the real reason Chirac opposed the hijab is that it allows the French people to delude themselves that they are not on the road to dhimmitude in their own country.

Hmmm...sort of like the way they use "Anti-Zionism" to distract themselves from their role in the Holocaust.

#24 Laurence -

I'd love to hear Peter Jennings say:

"Islamic women are revolting...film at 11".

I hope France desides to disarm itself of WMD before muslims become a majority.

Gee, suddenly French Muslims are up in arms to protect the right of jews to wear kippahs, I feel so warm inside.

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

Sun Dec 21, 7:01 PM ET

Painted protest : A women with religous signs painted on her face and wearing a veil protests in Paris as part of a march called by Muslims organizations in France to protest against the French governments 'decision to ban Islamic headscarves in schools, hospitals and public buildings.' (AFP/Medhi Fedouach)

I'd love to hear Peter Jennings say:

"Islamic women are revolting...film at 11".

Well he did pork Hanan Ashrawi a few times. That women is so ugly she could bite a pig through a crooked fence.

/high-fives self for inserting references to un-islamic meats

Heh, Iran calling France extremist. That's like Hitler telling Gahndi "You are too intense."

Who would have thunk that I would take Iran's side on anything.

#34 Henry S.

I support the ban for one reason: it will intensify and accelerate the inevitable showdown between the Islamists and the French government, ultimately forcing the latter to join the war to save France from sharia.

My thoughts exactly. This has actually nothing at all to do with the hijab. It is a purely symbolic issue - and both sides know that very well. The showdown is inevitable, and I think the French authorities have finally understood this. They have chosen to take the troubles sooner rather than later. A wise strategy, since the problems will only increase with time. Now the show has started, and it could get quite ugly.

What is happening in France now will have repercussions across the Continent. I will not be surprised if in hindsight, this will prove to be a turningpoint for Europe.

I think it's great that Chirac had the balls to ban headscarves in public schools. In the post-war period France has always strictly enforced the seperation of religion and state and promoted secularization. Muslims should be made to understand that if they want to live in France they'll have to be French citizens first and Muslims second. Whatever you think of the ban (in American eyes it looks tyranical, but France is not America) the important thing here is that Muslim loyalty to their adopted European states is being tested on the public stage. Muslims are beginning to find out that they can't bring their 7th century mores to 21st century Europe. It's a good development all around.

And there is something "threatening" and anti-social about French or American-born girls strutting around with a sack on their head. But we should never impose a similar ban here, our values are different.

I wonder what the French would say if
the US shaved the heads of those who
collaborated with Saddam and paraded
them through the streets?

[Link: fcit.coedu.usf.edu...]

Collaborators with shaven heads are paraded through the town by the French resistance on Bastille Day.
Photo credit: National Archives, courtesy of USHMM Photo Archives /blockquote>

Although I suspect that most of the little French Muslim schoolgirls are secretly delighted with this development, it's merely one more step away from freedom in France---if not toward sharia, then toward an equally unpleasant secular version.

I would be less wary of a ban on burqas on the grounds that sealing a girl up in a heavy black bag is child abuse, but there's no inherent harm in headscarves.

Donna V. (#33) wrote:

I wouldn't care if someone's religion called for them to go about wearing Carmen Miranda-style headdresses, as long as they left me and mine alone.

Yeah, but just wait till a Mirandite sits in front of you at the theatre.

As a libertarian I tend to think that people should be allowed to wear what they like. If you're talking about militant Islam, it's mainly men that are the problem, ie the gang-rapes, attacks, suicide bombers etc, not women, who tend, stupidly in my view, to be submissive.

Instead of having a law about something as trivial as a bit of cloth the French should be clamping down on some of the hatred that's spewing out of the mosques.

I would agree with a law banning religious signs in public services for the employees and contractors working on the place. But for pupils in schools it looks pointless.
I am against wearing headscarves in schools but a LAW to ban them is even worth. Secularism is not atheism. Secularism is a way to provide a possible common life, intstruction, work for a multicultural society. Then, believing, practice and following our religion and choices is an important right. But something is more important : keeping a public ressource like a school acceptable and efficient for all.
We completely forgot that the goal of schools is TEACHING AND LEARNING. As Chaya pointed in #26,

I am against the ban for the simple reason it can cause a backlash of extremism and force Muslim kids into Islamic school (medrasas) where they won't be exposed to ideas of tolerance.

I way prefere a determined girl keeping her headscarf in a school where she learn what she needs to be really a free person than sending her in a Muslim school where she might learn NOTHING ELSE than wearing this damned hidjab.
Since weeks we are busy with these f... pieces of rag and focused on (anti)religion consideration.
The main error is trying to point THE reason for wearing headscarves. If you see round the corner ten weiled gals, you see ten or more different motivation to wear it. I don't see how a law has any chance to handle such diversity
Can be personal religious faith, can be authoritary pression from their falily, can be a personal affirmation raised face to their family... Don't forget, they are not adult subscribing a working contract. They are teens, at this age all things around the look, the body, the clothes can be terribly important and take all available place in mind. When this occure, we have a problem. When pupils are in a mathematic coarse, their minds should be busy with mathematics. On most cases it goes better leaving the symbols with the coat. But on some others the girl will feel without her headscarve like a guy without his pants... Not easy to focus on mathematics then...
So, I rather believe in something fuzzy like "Seriously disaproved" or "Not authorized at all but not completely forbiden". The local case by case system pointed by Jaffar in #41

I think the relatively low number (2000) can be largely attributed to the fact that while hijab bans are about to be formalized as a matter of law, there has been an informal, ad-hoc ban in place for some time, although this varies from place to place and school to school.

But we, French are like this, we LOVE making new laws, ( as much as we HATE applying these laws...)

see on the website quoted by Alice in #52 This very good article

#67Pierre

" But on some others the girl will feel without her headscarve like a guy without his pants"

Yeah, Pierre, you hit this one right on the button! Where do you think this feeling might come from? a normal adolescent feeling of insecurity? Don't think I know in my school of any girls who are non-Muslim who feel nude without their whole head covered...

This comes from the home where families either preach or insinuate that a girl is a sexual potential and threat to hormonally crazed boys, thus, a "problem", thus, to be hidden, thus,
to be even more rendered an object than ever!

It may not be spelled out (altho, on French Tv - A2? - the other night their were 3 women debating just this) the government wants to send a message to the macho fundamentalist Muslims that France is on to them and it is time for this to stop these droplets of control which are infiltrating French society slowly but surely.

It is not me who says that the world's peoples fit into 2 categories -the faithful to Islam and the unfaithful -who need to be overcome.

The idea that girls and women are either under the hand of their father or brothers(literally sometimes), and submissive, or are whores is quietly accepted in certain Muslim "mileux" ; the headscarf is just part of a whole behavior towards and a negative, controlling approach to women.

They must be banned from France in public schools and inthe workplace of public adminstration .

No one wants to say it, because they are then taxed with racism , but giving into fundamentalist Islam will bring upon more "requirements" for their religion.

Next, we shall have segregated hospitals, beaches, cinemas, weddings, etc

etc
etc

Well, from what I ve read, I don't think you understand really what's going on in France at the moment. I don't think the type of argument like 'it s going to radicalize Muslims even more' is valid. It s already going on ffs!

Muslim radicalisation is now advancing unhindered. In Paris, you cannot walk 200 meters without seeing 2-3 women with headscarves, in some suburbs of Paris, it becomes increasingly difficult to buy non hallal meat, in some places ppl talk Arabic, they don't even bother to speak French...Five years ago, the sight of a woman wearing a headscarf was really rare. It was usually an old woman...not anymore
In schools, more and more girls wear a veil and in the surrounding projects, the headscarf is also more and more prominent for religious reasons, but also because the girls are compelled to wear it, lest they could be insulted or gang-raped (ya know, man, if a girl doesn't dress properly, she s a whore opened to everybody). And I am not talking about the fierce proselytism taking place in schools, where girls are gradually influenced to wear the headscarf for similar reasons. If there is no attempt to put an end to it, France will look like Saudi Arabia within 5-10 years. Burkas have appeared in some areas (they remain quite rare, for the moment). I am not talking about the various demands about the creation of prayer rooms in secondary schools (!), the banning of pork in school cafeterias (already implemented in most schools) etc...
In hospitals, there are also problems. Muslim women (or to be honest, their husbands) refuse to be treated by male staff.
Banning headscarves in schools, in fact, is less about secularism than an attempt to smother the increasingly vocal radical muslim claims. And never forget that many Muslims are really anxious about this issue.

A quote from IQ & PC -- By Chris Brand:

NEW LABOUR SECRETLY SOLVES CRIME PROBLEMS

According to Britain's "Daily Telegraph" (17 xii) "One prisoner in four is from an ethnic minority and the proportion is more than a half in some London jails. While the total prison population increased by 12 per cent between 1999 and 2002, the number of black prisoners increased by 50 per cent." Clearly the 1999 Macpherson Report (by Sir William Macpherson of Luny) has been quietly and race-realistically binned. As with the world-wide problem of fanatic-terrorist Muslims of IQ c. 87, apparently one needs to watch what the Blair Government does, not what it says about the 'delights of diversity.' PeeCee is now an official religion, just like the dear old Church of England - but nobody (and certainly not Rev. Blair and Home Secretary Blind Jo Blunkett) is expected actually to believe in it.

I believe that the French are drawing a line, even on this minor issue of head scarves. The message is, ‘Think before you go further’. If the Islamists do challenge the French government on this, they will find one of the most ruthless societies anywhere in the West. I believe that the French are right in drawing the line so early. We in the Anglo-Saxon countries may only draw the line after we had already compromised many of our principles. Canada's footsing with sharia, is an example.

In this war, which is cultural, it is absolutely necessary not to give an inch, when it comes to cultural issue.

Camel Prophet

The sad thing for me is that our peace and tranquility at home in the West, has been destroyed because of the enemy within. You advocate expulsion but thay would be ethnic cleansing. I think we should exchange Muslims here in the West for the terribly persecuted Christians in Muslim countries. Kill two birds with one stone and everybody is happy as well. Then Muslims can live in a sharia state and cover themselves from head to toe or whatever.

#69 David has it right!

I have lived here since 1981, the "annus horribilus" from my viewpoint, when the socialists took control and began in earnest the servitude of the French to the"collectivité".

Steadily since then there has been an increasing number of veiled women in Paris and in Marseille, especially.

It is indicative.

I think that the Muslims, especially the fundamentalists are scared; they can't adapt to our society and
in their pseudo argument, they say it is us who should adapt to their ways!

The Coran literally interpreted is absolutely incompatible with democratic values.
..
and for that matter, any "sacred" scripture taken literally and enforced, is incompatible.

#71 DP

Then Muslims
can live in a sharia state

But most of them don't want that. They keep fleeing their shitty underdeveloped/tyrannic countries to go to ours...and then they are not satisfied with what they find!
Furthermore, there is also a plan to invade 'peacefully' Western countries, by means of demographic changes, as they are not stromg enough to attack us frontally. Your plan will not satisfy the more radical muslim clerics, who rely upon this strategy to impose sharia worldwide.

I was under the impression that the hijab has no real meaning in islam and is a modern construct. Why the concern over this "piece of cloth?" Will not wearing it make you any less muslim?

What is the official penalty for not wearing a hijab. Since everything is explained in the koran, I would expect there to be clear and unequivocal guidance on this matter. Is there?

I uderstand the concern Alice,

but giving into fundamentalist Islam will bring upon more "requirements" for their religion.

And certainly, hospitals's priority is saving life and not following religious principles.

I confirm that, in a country like France where secularism is a main value, I agree to ban from any public services (on the staff side..) any religious clothing.

About hospitals, the staff is busy on serious work with serious consequences and in no way, they can be bothered with religious principles. Then, should someone make a fuss about the gender of the doctor, First, explain, then,
If the guy understand and calm down: "Thanks a lot sir for understanding."
If the guy keep on or encrease his mess: "Allo police..."

About schools, I can tell it like below.
The goal in a school is to provide the pupils enough material INTO their head to build their own ideas, beliefs and make their life. Rather than focusing, following our own ideas about what they wear or not AROUND their head.

Anyway this affair has a funny unexpected result here:

You, Anglo-Saxon explain that France is right to be strict on this matter. While me, a French, I would rather thell that Anglo-Saxon people are right to be tolerant about clothing... World upside down ;DDD

Pierre

Has anyone suggested referring to Islam as the "Religion of Cry-Babies?" yet?

Report from Paris:
Today, while out Chanukah shopping, I saw a veiled mall rat at Les Halles... It's just the latest "look." Perhaps most French Muslim schoolgirls are as consumeristic and superficial as schoolgirls everywhere else in the industrialized world.

I was under the impression that the hijab has no real meaning in islam and is a modern construct. Why the concern over this "piece of cloth?" Will not wearing it make you any less muslim?

The Quran does urge Muslim women to wear hijab -- which is not a headscarf or any other specific article of dress, but rather refers more abstractly to "a costume befitting a modest, godly woman, which is to include a covering for the hair." So, the scarves that cover only the hair and neck are a form of hijab, and so is the Iranian chadoor that covers everything but the face, and so is the burqa that reduces a woman to a shapeless sack and forces her to view the world through a fabric screen.

The relevant Quran passages that I know of would be:

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husband or their father [or certain other adult male relatives, or other women, or eunuch males, or children too young to find women potentially sexy] (Sura 24, verse 31)

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they place upon themselves over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be [recognized as Muslims], and thus they will not be given trouble (Sura 33, verse 59)

As you can see, these are pretty non-specific as to the exact styling of a Muslim woman's costume, except that a head-covering is involved. So the more cumbersome and shape-obscuring costumes, then, are post-Quranic innovations.

As PJO put it, Islam requires women to dress the way fathers of 15 year old girls would like them to dress.

#75 Pierre-

"You, Anglo-Saxon, explain that France is right to be strict on this matter. While me, a French, I would rather thell that Anglo-Saxon people are right to be tolerant about clothing... World upside down ;DDD"

Pierre,

Actually I am Franco-american and have been living in France a long time.
But, I believe that France should not "give in" to the pressure of the Islamists.

I think there is a slow brain-washing taking place in
France.
That is why I am very interested in Liberté j'écris ton nom, an association trying to react to change
the mentaliies here ---of anti-reform and personal irresponsibility of citizens in France.

And, as most Americans, I avow my political stance right away. (En France, je sais
qu'en "bonne compagnie", on évite de dire souvent de quel bord politique on est. ...tout en faisant savoir plus ou moins ce que l'on pense)

Ever been to the Objectionist center's site read what they say about the deaths in France this summer.
Interesting...

[Link: www.objectivistcenter.org...]

ciao!

Throbert McGee (#78),

Thanks for the insight.

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they place upon themselves over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be [recognized as Muslims], and thus they will not be given trouble (Sura 33, verse 59)

So in effect it is a symbol of muslimness, and will protect believers from "trouble."

It also explains why Nora is so unwilling to tell us why she wears her hijab:

and i would like to stress that hijab should be a piece of cloth to u, but y i wear it, that's my own personal freedom and it's none of anybody's business.

#74 Geepers:

Take a look at the site of "Faith Freedom"
[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

A huge amount of articles about Islam, an argumentation against Islam from a former Muslim,
and a huge amount of links to elsewhere.

Read a lot,
think a lot,
form you opinion,
share it!

We have that opportunity -still- in the Western world, shaped by democracy!
Thank Man!

#24 Laurence

They're revolting in Paris!

They certainly are!

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they place upon themselves over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be [recognized as Muslims], and thus they will not be given trouble (Sura 33, verse 59)
So in effect it is a symbol of muslimness, and will protect believers from "trouble."

Yup. It's hard not to interpet that portion of Q. 33:59 as saying "Muslim males are allowed and even encouraged to harass infidel women."

#80 - Alice

I had a look at the supposed "Objectivist," who points out the relatively low cost of a "window unit" air conditioner. But French families would also have had to buy their elderly parents new windows, as French windows are rarely of the sort in which an air conditioner can be adapted. Not to mention foot exorbitant electricity bills to pay all the civil servants who keep the system in business, with their company vacation villages and summer camps in the mountains, etc., etc. It's a flawed system but somehow it keeps rolling along...

As for the current flap over head-schmattas, we can be certain (as pointed out by the highly perceptive Pierre - as-long-as-they-don't-ban-the-Beret) that the only law that will be enforced is the Law of the Jungle: any schoolgirl who does not wear a headscarf, will be fair game for all sorts of verbal and physical insults. But that's the way things already are anyway.

#85

Yes, Nina,

you're right about one thing - the French can be fatalistic.

The air conditionner impossibilities aside, I do believe that the fault was the system - one which renders a large portion of our society dependent upon the assistance of the government, and willing to be so!

Anyway, our "flawed" system, as you called it, should and can be - fixed, amended, changed, improved. ...choose your word.

I refuse to be just another person who rolls along with the crowd and doesn't react.

We shall see what we shall see in regards to the headscarf.

Bonnes fêtes!