LGF

Dean Doesn't Want to "Prejudge" Osama

Fri, Dec 26, 2003 at 4:54:24 pm PST

In an interview with the Concord Monitor, Howard Dean made it clear that he doesn’t care how much he is mocked and ridiculed for his statement that the capture of Saddam Hussein doesn’t make the US safer—that’s his story and he’s sticking to it: Dean’s secure in his view of Saddam. But even more interesting, because it reveals the gaping chasm between those who believe we’re at war with the Al Qaeda mentality and those who don’t:

The Monitor asked: Where should Osama bin Laden be tried if he’s caught? Dean said he didn’t think it made any difference, and if he were president he would consult with his lawyers for advice on the subject.

But wouldn’t most Americans feel strongly that bin Laden should be tried in America - and put to death?

“I’ve resisted pronouncing a sentence before guilt is found,” Dean said. “I still have this old-fashioned notion that even with people like Osama, who is very likely to be found guilty, we should do our best not to, in positions of executive power, not to prejudge jury trials. So I’m sure that is the correct sentiment of most Americans, but I do think if you’re running for president, or if you are president, it’s best to say that the full range of penalties should be available. But it’s not so great to prejudge the judicial system.” ...

Asked how he would beat primary rivals with more experience on foreign policy, Dean said he would keep reminding Democrats that he was the only major candidate who opposed the Iraq war, despite polls showing the vast majority of the American public supporting the invasion at the time.

“The bottom line is, what kind of foreign policy experience do you want in Washington, in the White House?” he said. “Do you want the kind of foreign policy experience that was willing to vote for the Iraq war, or not?”

And how will he convince swing voters who weren’t so opposed to the war to fire President Bush?

“By going after him on terrorism, where he’s really weak,” Dean replied.

It’s an indicator of how loony the base of Howard Dean’s support is, that he thinks it’s a winning position to treat Osama bin Laden as a common criminal who deserves a fair trial (maybe even by Europeans who have no personal stake and won’t impose a death penalty), instead of as an enemy of the United States. In the days and weeks immediately following September 11, this “criminalized” viewpoint of the attacks was a sure sign of moonbattitude; now it’s mainstream Democratic platform stuff.

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106 comments

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1 Brian  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 2:58:31pm

What kind of a filthy country are we living in, where the frontrunner of one of the two major political parties refuses to treat the perpetrator of thousands of American murders as an enemy of the nation?

Not looking forward to the next 50 years on the planet.

2 Taran  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:05:38pm

Dang! Almost First!

This man gets scarier every day.

Howard Dean: Endorsed by Al Qaeda

I'm sure they'd love for him to win.

3 Let's Roll  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:08:03pm

Kinda reminds me of Clinton: "We had no legal justification to take OBL into custody when we were offered him 3 times."

4 Ms. Andi  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:08:09pm

How can he give such a nonchalant answer re: OBL's fate.

it doesn't matter

WTF?

I hope he looses in a terrible landslide.

5 Paladin  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:08:09pm

Can you say: "Soft On Crime?

6 Model4  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:09:41pm

LMAO! Osama "Yes I did it, and am trying to do it again, unless I can do something even worse" bin Laden must not be prejudged, and who really cares where he answers for his crimes and how? Is anyone else beginning to suspect that Dean is a GOP plant, and that upon accepting the nomination at the convention, he'll ask the nation just how screwed up, ignorant and/or hateful anyone could be to have supported him or any of the other fielded Dem candidates?

And how will he convince swing voters who weren’t so opposed to the war to fire President Bush?

“By going after him on terrorism, where he’s really weak,” Dean replied.

And besides demanding the country cower at home, talking, and asking others to act, how will you fight the war on terror?

#1 Brian: Check out most other modern countries, and you'll find it only gets worse. Enjoy!

7 Sgt Canuck  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:09:47pm

To Dr Death Dean.

What is the first target you want us to hit in the new year? Awaiting your reply.

Osama.

8 teal marie  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:10:38pm

Hrumph. This sounds like a preamble to how Christ-like he is, in his own mind. He's judging not fer starters. That he chooses Bin Laden over Bush for "not judging" purposes shows how shallow this new tactic is.

9 RightIsRight  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:12:22pm

Heheh, this tool is his own worst enemy.

Dean Playbook Rule #1: Open pie hole, insert dwarf-sized foot.

10 Rick Heller  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:16:30pm

Reminds me of Michael Dukakis, who wouldn't execute his wife's hypothetical murderer.

It also reminds me of Dukakis that his supporters argue that he's not a liberal in Vermont. Dukakis didn't realize how left-of-center he was, because in Massachusetts, he was in the center of his state's political spectrum.

11 Brian  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:18:40pm

#6 Model4

Thanks, I have, and I know ... I've been out of the country, and am horrified at how base other nations' cultures are (namely European). I cringe though at the puke-ification of America, ala Socialism and our tyrannical court system.

12 steve  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:24:05pm

Do you remember that famous (infamous) debate when then candidate for President Michael Dukakis was asked, in reference to the death penalty I think, what he would do if his wife, Kitty, were raped and murdered? His response was a lenghty treatis of legal mumbo jumbo about innocent until proven guilty, our judicial system being designed to discover the truth and administer justice, blah, blah, blah.

Had he just been human enough to say: "It would take a superhuman effort by those closest to me to keep me from using my bare hands to strangle the life out of the perpetrator.", he might have made a better showing in the election.

Either Dean believes what he is saying, which is bad, or he is pandering to those in his party whose vote he believes he needs, also wicked bad. No matter which it is he is incompetent to be POTUS.

13 Alex  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:24:29pm

Brian,

Strange but I just finished discussing that very question with the "dog tagged" segment of my family. My view has become much more optimistic over the last couple days of free meditation.

First, the fact that we have free elections is a good thing (obviously), but that will lead to people like Dean or Ross Perot running.

Many of the sane, voting Democrats left that party just before the space ship blasted off for La-La-Topia, the 10th planet from the sun.

Somewhere between 6% and 20% of Americans believe we didn't land on moon, individuals sure to vote for a Dean-like candidate. (I'd love to see a correlation study.)

Bottom line is, Dean's front runner status is simply and indication of just how far and fast the Democratic party voter pool has been depleted. The remaining non-conspiracy theory Dems are easily outnumbered by their Elvis spotting cronies.

14 Skookumchuk  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:24:51pm

When Dean loses in 2004, I hope Chirac can dream up some little job for him and Klintoon at the Quai d'Orsay. He can live on the Ille St. Louis, and stop every afternoon after work at that wonderful ice cream shop (is it still there?) and continue to live in his multi-culti NPR Left Bank dream world, while the successful war US against Islamosfascism rages around him. "And what did you do in the Anti-Terrorist Wars?" young kids will ask . . . and silence will be the response. I love it. Happy New Year, everybody.

15 Mr Conservative  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:25:21pm

Libarals = Evil !!!

16 evariste  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:28:29pm

Gah!! My eyes!

And how will he convince swing voters who weren?t so opposed to the war to fire President Bush? ?By going after him on terrorism, where he?s really weak,? Dean replied.

"Welcome to Crazyland".

17 azul93gt  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:28:35pm

This guy is flogging a dead horse about this Iraq crap. It's nearly over, and we won... Move on already.

18 Let's Roll  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:29:28pm

OT -- the accusation is becoming more solid

U.S. Officials Fault French on Terror Alert

19 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:31:03pm

This article and, as I write this, the only comment so far (Brian, #1)make me, as an attorney and an elisted combat veteran of Vietnam, feel extremely uncomfortable The clear implication is that an enemy of the United States doesn't deserve a fair trial. Think about that one thought just for a few moments.
Who declared him an enemy of the United States?
Does this apply only to foreign enemies of the United States or, if one should truly piss off those who declared Bin Laded an enemy of the United States (not to denigrate the murders of 9/11 as "only constituting pissing someone off"), should he or she be denied a fair trial as well?
I believe that Bin Laden was behind those deliberate murders of innocent people and, after a fair trial, he should receive the death penalty; preferably the old fashioned way - drawn and quartered. However, he should receive a fair trial (I honestly can't remember the "direct evidence" tying him to 9/11) if only because if he wasn't the prime mover behind 9/11, drawing and quartering him after something other than a fair trial will enable whoever else was the prime mover (if it was someone else) to get away with it.
Lastly, to Brian (comment #1) this is not a filthy country-and as disgusting as Howard Dean and an unfortunately large number of others are, don't call this a filthy country in front of me { please heed my advice to those who want to burn the American Flag: I think burning the American Flag should be protected Free Speech - seeing how violently and rabidly many of us react to someone's burning our flag only supports the notion that it is effective free speech; however, although I support the right to burn our flag as free speech, don't you dare try to burn it in front of me or I'll send you to the morgue or, if I'm having an off day, the instensive care unit; and no, I'm not fucking kidding). Now if you want to be more precise and say what kind of a filthy sumbitch Howard Dean is, please go right ahead.

20 Thom  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:38:47pm

#19 Bob

What if he were just killed on the battlefield? Would that be a miscarriage of justice?

IIRC, bin Laden declared himself an enemy of the USA. Numerous times.

21 NF  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:39:28pm

“The bottom line is, what kind of foreign policy experience do you want in Washington, in the White House?” he said. “Do you want the kind of foreign policy experience that was willing to vote for the Iraq war, or not?”

And how will he convince swing voters who weren’t so opposed to the war to fire President Bush?

“By going after him on terrorism, where he’s really weak,” Dean replied.
___

The bottom line is, Dean will not win both the primary and the general election without a major bait-and-switch.

Bait #1: You're either against going to war in Iraq or you're against me.

Switch: The real issue is terrorism.

Bait #2: Bush is weak on fighting against terrorism, I'm not. ("I'll teach you something about homeland security.")

22 b  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:40:14pm

I would like to see the US engage its military in a crime fighting way.

That is, I would build teams of rifle men to hunt down these rabid clerics and other enemies, and air them out.

This is a form of crime fighting, not traditional warfare on a front.

But, this is a terminology problem, not a philosophical one.

This enemy, the Islamic terrorists, is more like a crime family than an army. It has morphed itself onto a religion and slid into a benevolent western style world.

This will require innovation and creative remedies, that I know we can meet and match. Remember, the west adopted a 1790's mathemetician's equations to find bits and pieces of missiles on the bottom of the ocean.

The Islamists just have no idea of what they have done and what they are now up against.

Fear not, sons and daughters of liberty and happy holidays.

23 Alex  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:40:23pm

#19 Bob,

Usama declared himself the enemy of America when he attempted to kill 10s of thousands of our fellow citizens on September 11th, 2001.

He reaffirms his status (some believe posthumously) every 4 or 5 months by prodding his minions to continue killing.

If that doesn't make someone an enemy of America what does?

There are lines that must be drawn Bob.

Now, if you you're saying that UBL didn't order 9/11 and isn't still asking for more attacks, that's an entirely different concept. And one which most here won't waste time entertaining.

24 Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:40:51pm

Not to prejudge Howard al-Deen, but...ahem...I don't think I'll be voting for him in '04.

25 Darleen  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:42:16pm

I thought I'd pop over to one of the centers of glue-sniffing leftwingy moonbats, the democraticunderground, and see how this sits with them

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]

Needless to say, any presumption of Osama's "guilt" about 9/11 is shouted down with charges that the person who believes such is a Freeper who ONLY believes what FoxNews tells them to believe.

That weirdness is just too much.

26 Model4  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:43:36pm

#4 Ms. Andi:

How can he give such a nonchalant answer re: OBL's fate.

"it doesn't matter"

WTF?


Same as Wesley Clark. And he's their "tough Southern military man." Listen to any prominent liberal for any length of time and the story is the same: The West is illegitimate, with America being the worst offender. Our principles are wrong. Our values are wrong. Our beliefs are wrong. Our way of life is wrong. Our economic system is wrong. Our sovereignty is wrong. Our strength is wrong. At best, our success is a horrible fluke that must be corrected, but often it's a conspiracy of evil monsters that brought the nation and her people to where we are, and that goes back to the Founding Fathers.

Now granted, it's not a majority of them that consciously are motivated by this, but their numbers aren't small. And judging by actions, those that are merely following suit are just as dangerous. Every time they try to strip away fundamental rights, prop up dictators, coddle the criminal and crucify the cop, attempt to dismantle anything that results in security and prosperity, and mock and assault who we are and what we hold dear, it can all be traced back to the same motive.

Now I'm not here to say that all conservatives are wizened saints on all matters at all times, but the difference is like night and day when compared to what animates political liberals today, what they do, and how they go about doing it. It's a poisonous way of thinking and living, and it must be confronted. The seductive simplicity and immaturity of their message will always be around and will always be flypaper for the young, disaffected and ignorant to step on. Let up your guard for a decade or more, and we see that it's then an entrenched foe to deal with, exposing the crushing cost of the West's various "vacations from history."

27 Paladin  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:48:06pm

#19 Bob

Are you sure you're an attorney? Your argument is full of holes. I wouldn't want you defending me. Or hire you if I needed a lawyer in your particular field.

BTW, I spent over two years in Nam.

28 billhedrick  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:51:48pm

I find it telling that Howard "The Duck" Dean has less judgement and more tolerance for Bin Laden than he does for our President.

29 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:52:41pm
30 rumcrook  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:53:58pm

dean is a douche bag.


osama is dead. but at the outside chance he isnt and we finally catch up to him he should NOT get a civillian court trial, he should get a military tribunal. he declared war on america and declared all americans right down to our babies legitimate targets!

further more our system of fairness is not a suicide pact. he should be tried by a kangaroo court that is bearly paying attention to the proceedings, maybe even smoking cigars and eating ham sandwiche's while drinking beer and whiskey. then the verdict should be reached and he should be marched out to be shot.

his body should be fed to a ravenous sty of pigs then they should be sloughtered and shipped to his relatives as his remains.

31 bobby  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:55:23pm

This is the internet folks and anybody can make any claim he wants to. I don’t believe Bob is an attorney and I sure don’t believe he is a VN vet.

If you’re still around Bob, answer me this:

What is an MPC?

32 Darleen  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 3:58:47pm

#19 Bob

I'm not an attorney, I just work for them (at the DA's for almost six years now), AND as a daughter of a long line of vets, I see a huge bright line between criminal courts dealing with civilian issues, and the international arena of laws of war and engagement.

Osama issued a fatwa that was a clear and formal declaration of war in 1998. Prior to that, he already had a hand in the first bombing of the WTC in 1993. That he runs military missions in guerilla fashion with no military uniforms and directed against civilian targets makes him a WAR criminal, not a civilian one.

When one uses the term "fair trial" what immediately springs to mind is civilian courtrooms, not military tribunals or even what may happen in the heat of battle. OBL no more "deserves" the arena of a US civilian court than Hitler or Mussolini would have..and they never directly attacked American soil and civilians! (and I'm sure you're familiar with the American Bar Association Task Force on Terrorism and the Law, which basically supports the use of military tribunals to try illegal combatants.)

33 Model4  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:02:09pm

#19 Bob: My understanding is that Howard Dean isn't hoping to be elected judge for the Osama trial, or to serve on the jury. That said, he's entitled to a personal opinion, and running for the presidency, obligated to give one (or pay the price for being evasive). We're not talking about Michael Jackson or Scott Peterson here, where definitive proof has not been brought forward.

Sure, Osama should be put on trial if taken alive. That doesn't change the documented fact that he's already confessed to the crime. (cheap shot alert) I know that in lawyer-land many, many things are knotted up and twisted beyond recognition. It's fun in-house sport, and let's be honest, self-generates lots of billable hours. But real human beings know that the ultimate purpose of the courts is for law, order and justice to prevail. Once that concept is understood, no amount of legal prestidigitation and philosophical showboating changes the fact that a man who confesses to multiple murders with no coercion, and calls for more, is guilty.

And for what it's worth, there's no constitutional basis for the notion that the legal system's foundation is one where anything and everything conceivable must be done to get the guilty off the hook. I realize this is a popular view in your trade lately (ask Zack Mousoui, who also confessed), but it has no more legitimacy than saying blacks are worth 3/5ths a "real" human being.

34 westtexasjew  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:03:12pm

What a gold-star political ad that will be for Bush!

Howard Dean is a chinless, brainless eunuch who just can't keep his mouth shut.

What a worthless putz!

35 Apache  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:06:07pm

SING IT BOTHER DEAN!

That is the best news I have heard all day. I'm almost tempted to mail him a few dollars and explain that I now support him because he is not afraid to make those bold foreign policy statements.

If he keeps this up it will be 1972 all over again for the Dems. I hope he keeps saying what is on his mind.
A vote for Dean is a vote for schtoopid.

Mildly off topic: I think I stumbled onto an Islamo/Chechen financial scam. What do I need to get together and get to the powers that be before the authorities will take it seriously? If I just pop it off to the FBI, I'm pretty sure it will get lost in the shuffle.

E-mail me or post what I need to do.
Thanks!

36 Joel  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:09:18pm

Howard the Duck Dean may very well be the most anti American candidate of the Far Left (not counting the Communist Party USA) since Henry Wallace. I do not even think that as stupid as George McGovern's positions were, that McGovern hated America as much as Dean does.

37 marymary  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:12:49pm

Darleen,

thanks for the link to the fatwa. I was just going to try to find it and post it as appropriate to this discussion. Excellent post.

And didn't Osama pretty much confess to having planned 9/11 in a video made after 9/11 but before Tora Bora?

38 Paladin  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:12:50pm

#35 Apache

Send it to the FBI ASAP. They check out everything.

39 Darleen  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:20:18pm

Thanks, mary,

I am continually annoyed by those that just don't get it when it comes to bin Laden, et al. Just because OBL doesn't have a physical country that he is the leader of doesn't make him any less a war criminal. I would argue, it makes him more a war criminal and more subject to military engagement than civilian.

Damn it, he's declared his intention to pursue a modern Caliphate and destroy anyone that stands in his way...he is not running a meth lab!

40 Baldy  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:22:47pm

I also disagree with Dean's comment that it doesn't matter where Osama would be tried (assuming he is not pushing up daisies). When I was a supporter of Clinton, I never agreed with his approach to terrorists, treating them as criminals. Also, aren't US Embassies (Re: the Africa bombings) technically "sovereign soil"?

#35 Apache I think the FTC looks into Fraud, Scams...

41 Joshua Scholar  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:27:04pm

I pray that this means that Dean is an idiot, not that he has polls in hand showing that America believes that there is no real threat from Islamofacists...

Does anyone have polling data on this? Please email me, I'd like to stop worrying or at least know that I should worry.

42 Rayra[deleted]  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:30:51pm
43 M G  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:34:25pm

If Bob (#19) is still on, I'd like to point out one very important... ...eh, point:

The only moral purpose of the government of a free-nation is to protect it's own citizens from the initiation of force. (and also to settle distputes, but that is going OT) Police, courts, the military, etc exist for that purpose. But how does giving a trial to a foreign agressor who has never been so much as a legal resident serve that purpose?

Also OT, the above is the same reason that the government shouldn't be concerned with the lives of enemy civilians in wartime: it is not the US government's responsibility.

And no, you cannot protect both american citizens and enemy civilians. Remember that US military personel are citizens too. Most of them, anyway.

Or do you think the purpose of a government is something else?

44 Apache  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:36:54pm

Thanks Baldy and Paladin.

This seems more along the lines of money laundering that it does consumer fraud. They are soliciting funds for "Islamic investing" and then they seem to be diverting those same funds to Chechen freakazoids. They seem to also have a tie in with the Islamic Benevolence International Foundation that was busted not long after 9/11 but I think still operates in some parts of the world.

45 Will  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 4:41:54pm

The thing that worries me most about Howard Dean is that he might make enough statements such as these that he'll end up losing the Democrat nomination. Wish he'd save this stuff for the general election.

46 Yehudit  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 5:01:33pm

#35 Apache - also try Treasury Dept. Their agents follow money trails all over the world and are very involved with tracking down terrorist financial networks, as you might imagine.

47 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 5:13:14pm

To those who disagree with my post - ok - you are (still) entitled to your opinion.
I did not know that Bin Laden has confessed to being the "mastermind" behind 9/11; that should simply speed up his trial.
To those who don't think I'm an attorney - you obviously have not had much contact with attorneys (good ones, anyway) and congratulations and good luck to you!! There are some people I won't represent, either. If you did two tours in Nam, that just proves that you are either exceedingly patriotic, or exceedingly stupid; wanna guess where my bet's placed?
MPC is funny money - everyone knows that - do you know why I was paid, IN COUNTRY, in US dollars? I mean CASH?
AND ALL of the foregoing is IRRELEVENT.
EVEN the scumbag Nazi's (who deliberately murdered six million Jews and 5 million gypsys, gays and etc) got fair trials. Without a fair trial, how do you KNOW that Bin Laden's the one? Do you trust the government for saying so (and if you trust the government very much at all you're clearly NOT conservative - and probably not a Vietnam Veteran)) or the Media? If you really trust the Government and the Media THAT much, I'd like to sell you my interest in a bridge which goes from Manhattan (where I work and live) to Brooklyn - still the fourth largest city in the USA - and I'll sell it to you, as a supporter of LGF, on the cheap!
Bob
PS - if you're all so convinced that Bin Laden's "the one" (and I do think he's the one, which is why I want him to have a fair trial and then a speedy execution) why are you afraid to give him a fair trial? AND - no I don't want him "killed on the battlefield" - that's an honor which should be reserved for true warriors - I want to watch him die. BUT ONLY A FAIR TRIAL CAN PROVE THAT NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11!!!

48 Thom  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 5:23:08pm

#47 Bob

bin Laden confesses and gloats on every stupid tape provided to al Jazeera.

if you're all so convinced that Bin Laden's "the one" (and I do think he's the one, which is why I want him to have a fair trial and then a speedy execution) why are you afraid to give him a fair trial?

I don't think anyone is afraid of a trial (in the sense that a trial would prove his innocence). I do think that many are concerned that a trial (of a man you agree is guilty) would turn into a circus the likes of which this world has never seen. Just look at what Moussaoi is doing. And he's small potatos (relatively speaking). Bump it up a notch to Saddam Hussein. Bump it up an order of magnitude to bin Laden. Thanks, but no thanks.

AND - no I don't want him "killed on the battlefield" - that's an honor which should be reserved for true warriors - I want to watch him die.

I would like to see that as well. But my question was: if he was killed in battle, would that be a miscarriage of justice? When a suspect is killed in a shoot-out with police, are the police guilty of a miscarriage of justice? I think not.

49 Bleeding heart conservative (Brian)  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 5:48:52pm

About Dean: he keeps going on about how Iraqi Freedom was a distraction from the war on terror. He thinks he can score political points by insinusating that Pres Bush has failed to catch bin Laden.
Yet, preceding Iraqi Freedom there was more clear evidence (and worldwide consensus) of the presence of WMDs in Iraq-- based a failure to account for their destruction post-UNSCOM in 1998-- than there is of OBL's hand in 9-11.
Of course, I am completely convinced of OBL's culpability. My point is that Dean's opposition seems to be based on some petulant international nicety, not the security of the USA. I believe he recently said the war in Iraq would have been ok with him if only the UN had gone in with us (read: France, Russia China, an other Saddam arms suppliers.) He's not a pacifist, just ridiculous.

Bob, belligerents in a battle don't get trials, do they? I am sure a lot of regular enemy soldiers were, by our standards, "innocent" of any "crime." But they were fighting us, and died, without counsel, without jurisprudence.
In all likelihood, OBL and his al Qaeda bunkmates will perish in their dialytic lovenest before we can capture them. Would that be denying him a fair trial?
I hope you can see our point. We're not saying that trials are peculiar institutions, but they are a creation of freedom, to protect citizens against the inexorable power of the state.
In this situation, OBL is not merely a criminal, he is a belligerent...
Keeping that in mind, parse Dean here:

I’ve resisted pronouncing a sentence before guilt is found, I still have this old-fashioned notion that even with people like Osama, who is very likely to be found guilty, we should do our best not to, in positions of executive power, not to prejudge jury trials.

That's just plain stupid. The chief executive is leader of law enforcement duties, and the national defensive arm: not the judicial branch. To defend our shores from threats foreing and domestic. He should be thinking like the chief of police, not the public defender. Or maybe the prosecutor if you want to go that way.

So I’m sure that is the correct sentiment of most Americans, but I do think if you’re running for president, or if you are president, it’s best to say that the full range of penalties should be available. But it’s not so great to prejudge the judicial system.” ...


There's no logic here to refute. We've got an international terror gang with death on their minds, and about talking about not beng too sentimental?
Call it claritymongering if you will, but talking about the death penalty for OBL is not subverting the courts or the rule of law.

50 Dr. Dean's Blog Ghost  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 5:50:44pm

Yeah, and Stalin never had a fair and impartial trial, so how do we know that he was really responsible for all those deaths... and what about Hitler... he was never given a fair trial either, so he's also innocent until proven guilty.

Hey I just don't want to bias the jury. As a member of the executive branch, I dare not say things that might seem prejudicial. I'm just like Jesus that way.

51 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 5:51:47pm

Thom - I'm not tryng to be patronizing, but I'm trying to maintain some sort of rational focus here. Do you really think that a trial (I would add the word FAIR - which is the ONLY POINT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE) would be more...I don't know... difficult than the Nurenberg trials of the Nazi's were? Since we've entered OJ land, of course, and thanks SOLEY to the media, any trial of any famous or infamous person is apt to be a "circus" but that doesn't mean that we should bail out of what our Founding Fathers and, I still hope, we believe... that a fair trial at the very least TENDS to bring out the truth.
I don't know that if he was killed in battle that that would be a miscarriage of justice; however, if a suspect is killed in a shoot out with police, the cops are not guilty of a miscarriage of justice; we just will never know, if he was a SUSPECT, whether or not he was guilty of the cirme of which he was suspected. I hope you can appreciate the difference here.
ANd to , to MG - where the hell did you get the idea that the only MORAL purpose of the government of a Free nation is to protect it's citizens from the initiation of force? What then is the moral obligation of "non free" nations? Do you really believe that the government is acting IMMORALLY or outside it's TRUE purpose when it allows citizens access to courts (which, although far, far from perfect are still better than any other legal system around) to protect their property rights? Their freedom of speech? Of Worship? To, among many, many other things, protect their right to Vote? What do YOU mean by free? Saying that the only MORAL purpose of the government of a free nation is to protect it's citizen's from force is just so, so...sophormoric I can't beieve you actually said that in a public forum!!! I mean I know it SOUNDS good, goober, but so does "LIve Free or Die" until you realize that if our Founding Fathers had followed that nostrum they would all either have died or we woulnd't be free (I'll explain - our Founding Fathers weren't free untill AFTER we won the Revoulution; if they believed "live free or die" for all the years that they manifestly did NOT live free; they would have died long before there ever was a Revolution - it really should be Live Free or Die Trying to Live Free, but that doesn't have quite the ring to it to attach itself to the non-thinkers among us.

52 Will  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:00:06pm

Bob #47

This seems like a debate about nothing. I agree if OBL is captured he should get a fair trial, most likely a military tribunal. Yes, all the worst of the Nazis caught alive received a trial at Nuremberg, as I'm sure Hitler would have if he'd been captured alive.

However, we were aiming Daisy Cutters toward Tora Bora where we thought OBL was. Seems we had a definite intent to kill him if possiible. OBL issued his fatwa, or declaration of war against all Americans, military or civilian, man, woman or chilld, to be killed anywhere we might be found.

We'd kill him if we had the opportunity (if we haven't already), or capture him if we could, then give him a trial. But I think he's definitely considered an enemy of the US, "wanted deal or alive," as President Bush once said. That seems to be the reality, notwithstanding debates about trials or not. We kill enemies (the leaders) f we have to, or give them a trial if caught alive.

53 Yossarian  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:00:24pm
EVEN the scumbag Nazi's (who deliberately murdered six million Jews and 5 million gypsys, gays and etc) got fair trials.

I don't think you can compare a hypothetical OBL trial to the Nuremberg trials. There, the judges were composed of the Allies: Soviets, Americans, British, and French. There would be no international tribunal in this case, for one thing. One major aspect of the Nuremberg trials was to get as much information about Nazi Germany, its war strategies, and the Holocaust as possible. Bin Laden's trial might flush out more information concerning Al Queda, but it would have to be classified, and the trial would not open to journalists, unlike the Nazi trials.

54 Darleen  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:02:47pm

Geez, Bob, great way to totally ignore both points in my post, especially glossing over the ABA's own report and recommendations.

And.. as long as you decided to wax philosophical

hell did you get the idea that the only MORAL purpose of the government of a Free nation is to protect it's citizens from the initiation of force?
Do you really believe that the government is acting IMMORALLY or outside it's TRUE purpose when it allows citizens access to courts (which, although far, far from perfect are still better than any other legal system around) to protect their property rights? Their freedom of speech? Of Worship?

You seem to think that the latter is not tied to the former? Isn't a citizen who is the victim of fraud, theft or violence a victim of initiation of force? Where in god's name did you get your JD???

55 Kimberly  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:12:03pm

Slightly OT here, but I just have to mention it.

I had a discussion today with a friend of mine who is, bless her heart, fairly idiotarian in her political beliefs (this is why we never discuss politics in my social circle). I believe her opening salvo today was about how "it's not safe to disagree with the government today", with Exhibit A being the backlash against Johnny Depp and Exhibit B being the backlash against the Dixie Chicks.

As I said, an idiotarian. And I love her dearly, which is why I tried hard not to show my glee when I told her about Dean's recent comments about his Christianity and his belief in Jesus Christ. You see, like many idiotarians, my friend also has a knee-jerk hostility towards Christianity, which makes me wonder what Dean is up to.

I mean, is he trying to pull some of the religious folk away from Bush? Is he trying to seem more serious? Is he trying to alienate all the LLL's and loopy college students that make up his base? This last act, he might achieve; that crowd is as terrified of Christianity - and anyone who admits to being proud of being Christian - as they can be.

And I'm surprised I haven't seen more discussion of this, other than by #8 above (if it was discussed elsewhere on LGF, sorry; please point the thread out to me).

As for my friend, she said she now expects not to vote next year. I also think I did a good job of concealing my glee at that.

56 bgmacaw  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:12:16pm

Bob,

As they said in Silverado: We're gonna give him a fair trial, followed by a first class hanging.

I agree with you a bit in that if he's captured (a pretty big if, I think) that he should have a trial. I don't think that we should summarily execute him or anything like that and it would be worth the effort to capture him alive if this is possible and practical (some intel has indicated that he intends 'martyrdom' if cornered). However, I don't think a state or Federal civilian criminal court is the right venue for this kind of trial. A military trial that followed the UCMJ standards would be more than sufficent.

57 Thom  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:13:49pm

#51 Bob

I'm not tryng to be patronizing

Neither am I, but I'm having some difficulty understanding your POV.

Do you really think that a trial (I would add the word FAIR - which is the ONLY POINT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE) would be more...I don't know... difficult than the Nurenberg trials of the Nazi's were?

Absolutely. As you noted, OJ et al are alarming examples of the worst of American jurisprudence. Would I trust the bin Laden trial to the 9th circuit? HELL NO! I'd trust bringing bin Laden to justice to any Private, Airman, or Seaman in the US military before I'd trust those America-hating scumbags.

Since we've entered OJ land, of course, and thanks SOLEY to the media, any trial of any famous or infamous person is apt to be a "circus" but that doesn't mean that we should bail out of what our Founding Fathers and, I still hope, we believe... that a fair trial at the very least TENDS to bring out the truth.

Did our Founding Fathers have bin Laden in mind? Did they not countenance the idea of a military tribunal, unburdened by the concerns of ordinary courts who deal with defendants whose guilt may be ... somewhat more ambiguous than an internationally-known terrorist? Is the Constitution meant to give our freedoms to non-citizens, and our sworn enemies to boot?

I don't know that if he was killed in battle that that would be a miscarriage of justice; however, if a suspect is killed in a shoot out with police, the cops are not guilty of a miscarriage of justice; we just will never know, if he was a SUSPECT, whether or not he was guilty of the cirme of which he was suspected. I hope you can appreciate the difference here.

I can appreciate it. When dealing with a suspected criminal, I always regret when the perp is killed. But I never fault the police who were being shot at (I'm not sugesting that you do). And I wonder why the guy was shooting at the cops to begin with.

bin Laden is not a common criminal. I have no philosophical compunctions about putting a bullet in his goddamned head sans trial. You know? I mean, it would be great to give him the 3rd degree for years on end, but at the end of the day, he needs to die, now.

Live Free or Die Trying to Live Free

That was good. Very good.

58 Thom  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:20:58pm

#55 Kimberly

I think Dean feels that he has the democrat nomination sewn up, so it's now safe for him to lurch (occasionally) more towards the center in an attempt to pretend that he is some kind of "moderate". (E.g., his disingenuous attempt to discuss religion.)

Unfortunately for him (fortunately for us) he's already shown himself to be a world-class asshat. His idiotic statements will be fertile campaign fodder for the next 11 months.

59 Kimberly  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:28:20pm

#58 Thom - I think you're correct. However, it will be great if I get to see even more LLL's choking on their nuts and berries if Dean keeps blathering on about what a great Christian he is. If anyone tells me they plan to vote for Dean, I intend to ask them, "Is it because of his strong belief in Jesus Christ?"

My, that will be fun. Almost as much fun as the fact that Southerners can smell bullshit from a mile away, and aren't going to buy Dean's excuse that he never mentioned Jesus before now because of a Northeastern tendency not to "discuss religion in public." Yeah, right.

60 Darleen  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:30:44pm

#59 Kimberly

I think Dean's 'Jesus strategy' for campaigning to the rubes in the South will have as much success as his "pickups and Confederate flag" strategy!

Though, durn it, I wish he had waited until he had the nomination before going so completely looney...

;-)

61 Baldy  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:33:01pm

#55 Kimberly- Yes, leftists who think they are above middle-America, and its "bible-thumping" ways don't even try to hide their contempt of Christianity, but they usually say "right-wing Christians". Even though many blacks are technically "right-wing Christians" (according to the left's definition: conservative on social issues), the left usually just attacks white, southern Christians.

Shortly after 9-11, my friends were still more angry & frightened of Christians, than they were of jihadist Muslims. Dean's comments seem so odd, considering how long he took to mention this "important" part of his life.

"it's not safe to disagree" w/the govt. - Last time I checked, AG Ashcroft was not hounding Johnny Depp or the Dixie Chicks. I can't understand how people can say that. Some of the biggest celebrities are anti-Bush, and their careers are still moving along nicely.

62 Thom  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:35:10pm

#59 Kimberly

If anyone tells me they plan to vote for Dean, I intend to ask them, "Is it because of his strong belief in Jesus Christ?"

Damn, that was funny!

But they're in a real quandary: having convinced themselves that only Dean can beat Bush ... what can they say?

63 Yassar Datsmibebe  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:36:54pm

Wait, let me get this straight: Timothy McVeigh was tried and put to death onthe fast track as Dems cried about the new American terroism that the conservative causes where producing. yet, Howard Dean, serious presidential candidate, HAS NO F'ING IDEA WHAT HE SHOULD DO WITH OSAMA??? I know the guy doesn't spend much time keeping up with foreign affairs, but he must have seen at least one of those video confessions of hte Osama crowd while sitting in an airport or some leftist coffee house.

64 Kimberly  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:43:18pm

Let me just say that my dear idiotarian friend was appalled to hear about Dean's statements, and I really believe she is not going to vote for anyone if he gets the nomination.

Hee. Hee hee hee.

Re: Depp and the Dixie Chicks - I tried to explain the whole "If you are marketing yourself, and you alienate your fans by making silly statements, that's not suppression of dissent" concept to my friend, but it didn't get through.

Go ahead, Dean, alienate your crazy voter base while not ingratiating yourself with the Southerners. While Dean's comments about Christianity are not typical for LLL's, his assumption that Southerners are dumb, unobservant, and blinded by faith is pretty damn typical of the lefties. He's not going to be able to play it as a "moderate" this way without losing everyone.

65 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:49:21pm

Thom - I'm afraid I have you at something of a disadvantage here, since I am an attorney. Military tribunals DO have the capacity (at least) to provide a truly FAIR trial. Indeed, in my ezxperience, military courts seem to be more "fair" in their conclussion than civilian courts.
Moreover, killing Bin Laden "on the battlefield" seems unlikely to me; he hasn't shown much personal tolerance or personal physical courage in pursuit of his beliefs. If he were to die in custody, it would probably be the worst possible scenario.
I doubt he was in the minds of our Founding Fathers. But their almost unbelievable belief in "justice" as determined by the American public was more admirable than I can ever express (indeed, I teach Introduction the the American Legal System to graduate students at the NYU SCPS, and always preface my remarks by saying that I personnally do not have the courage our Founding Fathers had - the greatest, combat veteran army of the day sitting 90 miles away in NYC; the greatest navy in the World and the tyrant King George having already found each of them guilty of treason and ordering that they be "Executed immeditately when found;;; no trial or arrest is required; hanging is preferred, but bayonette or ther means acceptable" and knowing that their wives and children would be thrown into the worst prisons the British had in the colonies )"to set an example to the rest of the traitorous lot") they STILL voted for independence. And they risked everything they valued in life for an IDEA = that the governed should do the governing. Indeed, Robert Livingston of New York said, AFTER the unanimous vote for independence ... my god; if we shoud somehow win our war of independence, what if our idea should fail (note, no other nation in the history of the world had ever tried governance by the governed; no one knew if it would work)? Will Great Britain allow us to return as colonies??
I'm sorry this is such a long post; I've posted my e-mail address with my messages but don't know if Thom has (or if he has, how I can find it to communicate specifically with him) it.
I am also sorry for sort of taking off on MG - and Darleen, I graduated from Cornell Law School and no, the victum of fraud or theft is NOT the victum of FORCE, at least not in these here United States. The single most valuable aspect of our nation, in my less than humble opinion is our right to freedom of speech. I have lived in countries where people I KNEW where hustled away in the middle of the night, NEVER to be heard from again because they had dared critize the poweres that were. So I must apologize to MG - but the idea of MY nation NOT acting in good faith to determine ANYONE'S guilt or innocence more than appalls me.
I guess I've violated one of my father's rules: never pick an intellectual fight with an unarmed opponent.
PS - to save LGF some potential grief, my e- mail address is realwest@earthlink.net.

66 C.T.  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:53:41pm

#47 Bob

You used a bad example, which perhaps is equal commentary on you, the law schools, and the state of education regarding history and civics.

The Nazis did not get a fair try - we made the mistake of hosting a travesty of justice by attempting to try them. Victor's justice, as it were. The Nazis fully deserved their fates, but we did not have to stain the sanctity of justice with, among other things, the real guilty parties sitting in judgement on the presumed guilty parties (Read: the Soviet Union trying German officers for the Soviet massacre of Polish officers at Katyn Forest.)

What should have happen was something Winston Churchill said - we should have shot the Nazis and be done with it.

(If you honestly thought that the Nurenburg Trials were fair, than I suggest you tell me how was it EVER possible that Hermann Goering could have won an aquittal, because, for example, some of the chains of evidence had been broken?)

Tell me, suppose bin Laden is given a fair trial, where all the evidence shows that HE CONFESSED TO 9/11, do you want a mistrial or an aquittal to be given because the evidence was not handled with the care the legal system is suppose to for common criminals? Sorry, but I am NOT in the mood to let free serial mass murderers who, usurping the traditional powers of the state, has seen fit to declare and wage war on a nation-state, simply because somebody did not Mirandize him, or all the evidence was not always in the custody of the FBI.

As for not wanting him to die on a battlefield because that is for "true warriors" - interesting combination with your earlier crack, but if you really push to give bin Laden a fair trial, the less incline the people looking for him will bother with trying to take him alive. "No way I am going to risk my life to arrest the slime because someone wants to play the reincarnation of William Kunstler."

BTW, thanks for the crack about people willing to serve two tours in Vietnam. Always nice to see how where you are coming from, if not always nice to see the ways it can be mentioned.

67 Thom  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 6:58:44pm

#65 Bob

I'm afraid I have you at something of a disadvantage here, since I am an attorney.

Really? I had no idea.

And they risked everything they valued in life for an IDEA

So does bin Laden. It is only lack of a moral compass that would draw any sort of comparison between the Founding Fathers and bin Laden because they both happened to believe in something.

I've posted my e-mail address with my messages but don't know if Thom has (or if he has, how I can find it to communicate specifically with him) it.

thom_lgf (at) yahoo (dot) com

Email away.

I guess I've violated one of my father's rules: never pick an intellectual fight with an unarmed opponent.

Nice.

68 William  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 7:03:23pm

Bob #19 writes:


The clear implication is that an enemy of the United States doesn't deserve a fair trial. Think about that one thought just for a few moments.

Who declared him an enemy of the United States?

Ah, Bob, in case you've been asleep for the past five years, him and his organization declared themselves enemies of the United States:


"We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

Excerpts from bin Laden tape
December 13, 2001
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

And:


"We have not reached parity with them. We have the right to kill 4 million Americans -- 2 million of them children -- and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands. Furthermore, it is our right to fight them with chemical and biological weapons, so as to afflict them with the fatal maladies that have afflicted the Muslims because of the [Americans'] chemical and biological weapons."

Islamic terrorist group "Al Qaeda" spokesman
June 12, 2002
[Link: www.memri.org...]

And:


"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it..."

Bin Laden statement
February 23, 1998
[Link: www.fas.org...]

And in August of 1998, after two US Embassies -- and the people within them -- were destroyed, it was known the next day that "Al Qaeda" and Bin Laden were responsible for the attacks:

[Link: www.pbs.org...]


Any other questions?
 

69 azul93gt  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 7:07:05pm

#51 Bob

- ...no I don't want him "killed on the battlefield" - that's an honor which should be reserved for true warriors

We are a powerful nation, but we may not have that choice.

I've never heard any administration proclaimation stating that Osama wouldn't be subject to trial if captured alive. One would hope that he was brought before a US military war crimes tribunal, and then executed upon a guilty verdict. What do you or Dean expect we would do with OBL if we captured him.

"Live free or die," ultimately implies "live free or die trying" at least to me anyway.

70 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 7:41:39pm

Jeez!!! And I thought by "moderating" my views I could end this, uh, dialogue or whatever on a high note!!
To William: no, I was awake long enough to mourn for and attend my father's funeral ( he was one of the many NYFD rescue workers who lost his life at WTC).
Secondly, every source of evidence you've cited comes from the media (except for your comment after August 1998 that "it was known that..." I guess I WAS asleep because I didn't KNOW that fact).
Secondly, comparing OBL to the Founding Fathers TOTALLY ignores what each has proposed:
A) Founding Fathers: the governed shall do the governing; freedom of speech, press and WORSHIP

B) OBL - only when the USA converts to Islam and recognizes it as the only allowable religion can the "war" end.
also, our Founding Fathers were 90 miles away from the British and they still maintained their public persona and went on to FIGHT the war of independence; some were indeed captured and put to death during the course of our war and their wives and children placed in the notorious prision barges in New York City; no hiding in holes or tunnels for our Founding Fathers.
Duh -
To azul93gt - please read my first comment; I couldn't possibly disagree with Howard Dean more; I just think that if we catch that rat bastard alive, he should be given a fair trial (and no, the Nurenberg trials WERE fair; Goering was NOT FOUND INNOCENT, but he was found "not guilty" only after the coward took his own life and couldn't testify in his own defense.
Lastly, to CT - sorry if I hurt your feelings; I served in late 69-70. By then, quite frankly, if you were in country and really believed that the majority of the South Vietnamese wanted us there, well... Also, how do you feel about our former erstwile secretary of defense Mr. McNamara's revelations in his new book and on 60 minutes that he "knew" we couldn't win the war in RVN, but didn't tell LBJ because he wanted to spare his "friend" the "unpleasant" news? BTW, more than 28,000 of us died and more than 800,000 vietnamese died AFTER Mr. McNamare had his revelation and decided to spare his "buddy" the bad news? And some people wonder why I don't trust the government.

71 gymnast  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 7:55:18pm

#65,Bob, not being a lawyer, I try not to pick an argument with an unarmed halfwit. But I eat lawyers for breakfast when it appears that they do not recognize that amongst the many reasons for the "Big war crimes trials" (as opposed to the little one that resulted in hundreds if not thousands of executions) was to set a stage where even idiots and basically evil persons could get a grasp of what the world thought of the inhumanity evidenced by the actions of the leadership of the axis powers and that this behavior had consequences even if the convening authority was created ex post facto. You're not an othopaedicaly challanged halfwit are you Bob?

72 Mr. E. Train  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 7:57:03pm

to quote some forgotten western;
"We're going to give him a right honest trial, then a quick hang'in"

As for the beloved Dr Dean... what more can be said? Stupid is as stupid does. The man is like an arrogant, angry Forest Gump.

I dont think there is any doubt that the man will go down in flames... a nighmare presidential campain that would McGovern night terrors. The real question will be the senate. If the GOP takes enough seats in the senate to make themselves veto proof on top of crushing Dr Dean like a hot grape then we might be witness to the first step in the dissolution of the Democrats as a major political party. It could very well be that the Dems will go the way of the Whigs.

Good riddence to bad rubish. Yet, our system of government relys on 2 strong parties. They act as whet stones on one another, keeping each other sharp and honest. I hope what ever replaces them is more rational and honest then the Dean-Dongs.

73 rumcrook  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 7:59:13pm

ok this thread has devolved into an esoteric mind numbing tit for tat..

bored now...

74 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 8:01:35pm

To gymnast (#71) WHAT???
I'd like to try to respond on an intellectual level, but I don't have a clue as what the hell you just said.
So...do you prefer to eat male or female lawyers for breakfast and...does your spouse know about this, un, fetish of yours?

75 gymnast  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 8:09:39pm

#74, Bob. Only one name to give meaning to the state of education at Cornell. Cynthia Mckinney. No wonder you did not know what I said.

76 William  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 8:32:36pm
Secondly, every source of evidence you've cited comes from the media

Bob, are you sure you're a lawyer?

Regarding the sources cited in post #68...

Source #1 is a videotaped Bin Laden confession.

Source #2 is a statement by the Islamic terrorist organization "al Qaeda".

Source #3 is a source document, transcribed verbatim.

Source #4 is a source document, transcribed verbatim.



except for your comment after August 1998 that "it was known that..." I guess I WAS asleep because I didn't KNOW that fact

Well, hang around, hopefully you won't remain unarmed for long.
 

77 gymnast  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 8:44:24pm

#76, William. I think Bob is a lawyer. He seems to possess many of the attributes of the ACLU branch of the profession. An impressive lack of common sense, an overabundance of arrogance, and not the least hesitation in attempting to convince others that the law of gravity is an amorphous concept, the better of which he knows and will prove to you if you just keep your eyes on his left hand.

78 Bob  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 9:03:45pm

To William and to Gymnast:
William - a video tape; a "source document" by al queda. Where did you get this information? FROM THE MEDIA. Lately the CIA is saying that the most recent tapes supposedly from OBL are "old" tapes. I personally think the sob died several months ago, but the ONLY point I've been trying to make is that IF we catch the sonofabitch alive, we should give him a fair trial before we kill him. That means, among other things, finding out if the "source document" the video tape and the spokesperson from Al Quaeda are in fact true and authentic (Aww, I didn't really want to spoil your day, but have you ever head of "disinformation")? IF you have, you'd get my point; if not, well, that's too bad for you, chuckles.
As to Gymnast - I still seem to have trouble understanding you - that ANYONE, who knows anything at all about me would put me in the ACLU is not laughable, it's preposterous.
Why don't you (and please, take William with you) try, just try real hard, to answer the question "why would we NOT give Bin Laden a fair trial - note, this does not presuppose that it would be a) a civil court or b) a jury trial. Who in this country gets to decide whether or not someone is guilty of murder? WHO? (sorry, that maybe should be WHOM, I'm never quite sure). Does EVERYTHING OUR NATION STANDS FOR IN TERMS OF JUSTICE AND HISTORY MEAN NOTHING TO YOU TWO?
Oh, and to Gymnast - it's nice to know that, although I graduated from Cornell Law School over 25 years ago; that seven US Supreme Court justices have graduated from that school; that countless numbers of "right wing" or conservative leaders graduated from that august school mean nothing - only Cynthia Mckinney means anything to you with regards to Cornell Law School. Your intellectuosity is absolutely underwhelming.

79 gymnast  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 9:32:43pm

#78, Bob, oh well funs over and I appreciate you sticking to your guns long enough to make your thoughts on Bin Laden cogent. My point about Mckinny is unfair to you as are my comments about the ACLU. Neither are your fault. They are just a "cross to be borne by Cornell alums and lawyers. I was not aware that Goering was part of any ajudication after his suicide the night before his scheduled execution. I think the process major war crimes trials was about worn out by the time the Tokio trials of major players ended and the operators of the Japanese expermental "chemical warfare facilities" went Scott free and died of old age as did many of the other players in the Pacific theater including the Emporer. Deans position on Bin Ladin is political rather than legal. He would have been wise to offer no comment rather than identify with moral ambiguity. By the way, who do you think Charles Taylor should answer to? Yassir Arafat? Al Zawahiri?

80 Ed Moran:Abu Whats the Deal with Iran?  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 10:14:32pm

What spooks me just a little bit about Dean's "hitting Bush where he is weak- terrorism" strategy just might work if al Q does manage to pull off a couple of devastating attacks.

If the lower Manhattan financial district is shut down for three months to decontaminate after a dirty bomb is detonated, or an Air France flight to Chicago (somebody with a faster connection might want to fact check if Air Frog flies to ORD) overshoots the runway and plows into the Sears Tower or Hancock Building, you know Newsweeks liberal Periscope will have down arrows for Bush, and "TIME" will have covers with pictures of flaming buildings or troops in anti-C's with headlines like "Bush's Failure". Dean may be shifting to this strategy knowing that the Saddam capture and improving economy will make it almost impossible for him to win, so he is preparing to take advantage of an Allah et machina

81 Ed Moran:Abu Whats the Deal with Iran?  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 10:21:05pm

Presidential Campaign Was Cited During Talks to Seal Dean's Papers as Governor


Is the NYT turning on Dean?
( Perhaps they have decided he can't beat Bush )

82 CT  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 11:18:52pm

#70 Bob

Thank you for ignoring all my points about trying the Nazis at the Nurenburg trial. Too bad the US could recognize the problems with them at the time.

I don't know about the general attitude of the Vietnamese when you did your tour, but I know that most of them sure as hell did not want to be Communists.

I also know that the United States ran away from its obiligation to support an ally, and thereby cast shame and dishonor on its name. After, wasn't our problem if we force the RVN to accept 100,000 North Vietnamese Army troops on Southern soil. And if we cut off funding...Oh well, no doubt the Politburo up in Hanoi has the best intentions for the Vietnamese people.

Let's not forget that the US pulled the same stunt with China and Iran. Lots of Iranians do especially care for what the US did to allow the Islamists in power; my family still has members angry at George Marshall and Harry Truman.

As for McNamara...I think he was a criminal bastard who should been hauled up to the stocks before the American public. You and I probably have the same assessment about him, and I know how I feel about how he fooled around with the military.

Still, I suppose if you think McNamara ran the whole US government for the last 30 years, be my guest. Let's ignore (For example.) a succeding SecDef who actively tried to sabotage US operations in Vietname while US forces were STILL in Vietnam, among other things...Be sure to tell me when the Bavarian Illumanti are planning to change the crypto-Nazis/neo-cons ("Yeah, they're Jews and Nazis, man!"), and what plans the Freemasons have for putting up the mind-control lasers that Dennis Kucinich is warning people about.

83 larry  Fri, Dec 26, 2003 11:42:39pm

This jerk wants to be the second clinton! He's got a serious case of 'embedded rectal crainalitious'. I doubt if he'll ever get his head out of his ass.

84 Bay Area Gore Voting Hawk  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 1:56:58am

#1 When I first started posting on this blog, I used the name "Bay Area Gore Voting Hawk" to show that, yes, there are (in those day I thought I was a liberal, but the way the Democratic Party is now, I prefer the label "Democratic Party centrist") pro war liberals, but now, I'm ashamed to have anything to do with Gore.
What a bunch of wusses the Democratic centrists are turning out to be. For all of you conservatives who lose sleep at night worrying about Hillary Clinton and her machinations to become president, ask yourself, how strong can this supposed Hillary Clinton juggernaut be if they can't even derail this Howard Dean twerp?
Actually, I wish he really were a twerp, but he scares me. I really hope he is the second coming of George McGovern. I was around in '72, and as I recall, George McG. had about as much charisma as Ed Sullivan or Gray Davis. I had it, but this guy seems to have a certain scary charisma, and in his sneaky, slippery way, a much more competent campaigner than George McG.

#2 Re: Dean's suposed Christian beliefs. In a recent George Will column in Newsweek, Will says that when Dean was asked about religious beliefs, he said that he'd left his church because of some disagreement in his congregation about a bike path. Now, I ask you, have any of your Southern Baptist friends ever left their church because of a beef over a bike path? Also, as I understand it (somebody out there confirm or deny this), Dean is/was an Episcopalian. I hope the next time he opens his trap about his deeply held religious beliefs, somebody asks him, "As an Episcopalian, or an ex-Episcopalian, how do you feel about the little brouhaha over the new gay bishop of your neighbor state, New Hampshire?" Why doesn't somebody ask that NOW, when there really is a primary election in New Hampshire? Here's your chance, Dennis Kucinich-show us what an uncompromising liberal you are-you ask the good doctor. Ten bucks says he ducks that punch as effectively as he's ducked a lot of other punches this year-groan! But I still wish somebody would ask it.

85 HA  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 2:07:31am

Bin Laden is not an American citizen and has no right to a trial in the American criminal justice system. He should be declared an illegal combatant and only given the protections of an illegal combatant under international law.

If captured, he should then be tried by a miltary tribunal and executed when found guilty.

86 Bay Area Hawk  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 2:37:02am

On the cover of a recent issue of National Review, they showed Dean at his pissed off finest-pointing both index fingers at some unnamed off camera evil. NR's caption was, "Please! Nominate this man". I hope they're right about his unelectabiblty, but I'm scared. I'd sleep a lot better at night if some Democrat would drive a gold spike through his heart. I could be way off, but except for Dennis Kucinich, he seems to be the only one who actually believes the whole lefty world view-the others give me the impression that they're going left against their will, foreign policy wise, Joe Lieberman aside.
If I could be God for a year, I would create some Democratic centrist who would say, "Yeah, I voted for the war, and I voted for the $87 billion dollar bill that finances it, and I'm not backing down." This centrist would bolt the party, and run a third party campaign whose basic these would be something like, "Pro war, pro choice, pro gay rights", or something like that. This candidate would get on the ballot in all 50 states, but would spend most of his time, energy, and money in New York, New Jersey, and Florida. (Lot's of Jewish voters there). He would hammer away at all the anti-semetic undertones running through the anti-war movement. He would run newspaper ads showing Dean's picture next to Noam Chomsky's picture. Under each picture, there would be similar juicy Israel bashing quotes, quotes trivializing suicide bombings, etc.
If Dean says, "My opponent is under the mistaken impression that Noam Chomsky is running for president, he's not, and I'm not Noam Chomsky", our candidate should say, "You may not be Noam Chomsky, but a significant fraction of your hard core supporters, all the Deaniacs that contributed their nickels and dimes in the beginning, DO think you're Noam Chomsky, and that scares me. Now, if you'd like to reassure the rest of us, please publicly confront your hard core and tell them, and us how you differ from the good professor."
If Dean goes for the "My wife is Jewish" defence, our candidate says, "Yeah, and no doubt Noam Chomsky's wife is Jewish, too. You don't have to be Jewish to like Hebrew National Bread, and you don't have to be goy to be an Israel basher, professor Chomsky being exhibit A. Oh, yes, and (after all, our candidate IS an insurgent Democrat) furthermore, remember when all of us pro choice people were supposed to be impressed that Barbara Bush was pro choice? Didn't do us a hell of a lot of good, did it?" Then, through anonymous PAC ads, our candidate talks about Noam Chomsky's Holocost denial connections, and what that tells you about his supposed impartiality, or even his right to be respected as an intellectual, and other nasty stuff about the great "intellectual". The far lefties go ape shit, and Dean either has to distance himself from Chomsky, or defend him to keep his fanatics on board.
Either our candidate carries New York, New Jersey and Florida, or he siphons off enough Democratic votes so Bush carries those states.
This will never happen, of course, but I can dream, can't I? Until that fantasy unfolds, I guess we just have to hope that Ralph Nader's ego gets out of control, and he runs and gets his usual 2%. Run, Ralph, Run!
A lot of Demos are scared about Nader running, but IMO you can't placate that crowd, you can't buy them off, all you can do is roll over on your back with all four paws up in the air and say "Woof, Woof, please rub my tummy". That, of course, is what that Demos are doing now, so, if Nader were rational, he'd have to be thinking, "Why run? they've already capitulated, what more could I accomplish?"
Let's all hope Nader's ego gets the better of him.

87 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs (ethos)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 3:20:22am

ALSO... when Dean shows up in the South to campaign -he will suddenly, magically, be a disciple of Jesus Christ.

88 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs (ethos)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 4:20:31am

Dean wont judge Osama but he will ask Jesus for help as he embarks on a holy mission to the South.

[Link: www.boston.com...]

89 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs (ethos)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 4:39:50am

...

[Link: www.buttafly.com...]

90 JerryC  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 5:00:42am

Dean will probably conclude that America deserved it and release bin laden.

91 Julia the Horrible  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 5:08:53am

Jihoward

This is way too funny on Slate today, a must read.

92 Mister Ghost  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 5:22:49am

Hey, my first post here. I say "Welcome Aboard" to myself.

No need to fear, as Dean in his new tough
on crime mode has reversed his stand and
now calls for the death of Osama. Yahooo!
Apparently the poll numbers
weren't showing a lot of favorability for
the sensitive soft juriprudence approach to
a mass-murderer thug.

That's the great thing about Dean. The amusing reversals.


This week he's a Jesus Freak (no offense meant to Christians) in the South and next week he'll be a
head-banging Heavy Metal Satanist in the North,
regaling us with tales of carving Black Sabbath
blood tattoos as a teenager, desecrating graveyards,
and attending Black Masses.

93 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs (ethos)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 5:45:14am

Good points, Mr. Ghost.
Dean is trying desperately to take the power away from the Clinton.
Yet it is interesting and altogether funny to watch Dean's clumsy efforts. And even more laughable is Dean's use of the famous Clinton tactic: "wet finger in the wind" to help chart his political course. Who needs core values when you can read the polls and react accordingly?
Dean is an obvious studied pupil of the Clinton; but in reality, kid-Dean is ready to rebel and break free from the binding “establishment” and start his own brand. It should be fun to watch the internal power struggle that ensues.

94 Kimberly  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 5:45:57am

#92 - Hey, my boyfriend is a death metal musician. Don't you ever insult him by claiming that Dean could hope to reach that lofty level of human behavior. :)

As for the reaction of the LLL's to Dean's religiosity, here is it:

DUers react to Dean's Jesus statements

As is normal for the DU, the first half of the thread is crowded with the completely-out-of-touch-with-reality crowd who are incapable of using search engines and who insist that Drudge made up this entire story, Boston Globe link and all.

Makes you wonder why they think that a vast right-wing conspiracy would try to make a Democratic presidential hopeful sound Christian, doesn't it? It couldn't be because DUers consider Christians to be awful people, could it?

Nahhh..

95 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs (ethos)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 6:09:38am

Duers and LLL are very tolerant of Christians. *gasp*
It couldn't be that Dean is mining for votes the only way he can - by chameleon bate and switch.
Dean might be a tard', but he's not Stooopid. He sees the writing on the wall. His wacked out far left supporters only go so far…

[Link: www.theweeklystandard.com...]

96 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs (ethos)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 6:20:00am

"bate"? ah, no - Try - "Bait"

97 niall (Abu Ala Peanut Butter Sandwich)  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 7:01:00am

Seems to me a fair trial of Osama wouldn't have to be a circus. One way to achieve this: on national TV play one of the tapes of him taking credit and then ask him if he stands by his previous claims. If yes, well that pretty much wraps it. If no, then would he mind explaining the tape in light of this denial to this to his jihadi buddies?

98 endnprbias  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 9:04:29am

the war against terror will not end with bush's second term. what better person to replace him than ret. gen.
tommy franks. just heard him on c-span. he makes
weasel clark and howard the duck dean look like rank amateurs

99 roach[deleted]  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 9:05:07am
101 Teacake  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 12:18:23pm
but this guy seems to have a certain scary charisma,

Once a lie is told often enough... LOL !!! Charisma. LOL!!! He looks like a bloated chipmonk. Total duffus.

102 zulubaby  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 12:31:51pm

Teacake (#101)

He looks like a bloated chipmonk.

LOL! Dean does scare me though, in the same way that clowns scare me.

103 sam  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 4:49:39pm

To bob the lawyer:

Define "fair trial". Why would the US civilian courts be available to bin Laden? Under the resolution passed by Congress in Sep 2001, the President has the choice of "any means necessary" to wage this war. And that is the law of the land.

To a lawyer, every situation is a potential lawsuit, just as to a hammer, every problem is a nail.

104 Vancomycin  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 5:04:10pm

Late posting to this, I know, but with this, Dean assures that he cannot beat Bush in 2004.

105 William  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 8:04:39pm

William - a video tape; a "source document" by al queda. Where did you get this information? FROM THE MEDIA.

Are claiming the information provided is worthless?  The videotaped confession, for example, is a fabrication from the media?  Do you use Reynolds Wrap or store brand?



I personally think the sob died several months ago, but the ONLY point I've been trying to make is that IF we catch the sonofabitch alive, we should give him a fair trial before we kill him.

I think he's dead as well; but he's just a symptom anyway, not the disease.

As for giving him a "fair trial" Bob, that notion is very...September 10th.

The world has changed.

What if on Sept 11th an airliner hit the Indian Point nuclear facility a few miles north of Manhattan, and released radioactive material throughout the Eastern Seaboard, including Manhattan?  Time to break out some lawyers? 

You're still thinking in terms of crime, not war.  The days of fighting terrorism as "crime" are long gone.

Indeed, had the 1993 World Trade Center bombing went off as planned, the first tower would have collided into the second tower, and both towers -- including the 50,000 people within them -- would have been destroyed in seconds.

The terrorists responsible for the 1993 WTC attack went to jail, which was hardly a deterrent against future attacks. 

Lawyers will not change the ideology that creates the Bin Ladens of the world.  Killing all terrorists and their supporters will, as will draining the swamp of backwardness and hate (former Taliban regime, former Hussein regime, former ___ regime, etc...).

And if America fails to drain the swamp in time, and Islamic terrorists detonate a nuclear device on a US city in the next decade or so, what then Bob?  Do you think Americans will clamor for some lawyers, and the UN?  Not a chance.  Any whining from France and Germany will fall on deaf ears.  Whoever is President at the time, will unleash hell, and millions will die.  Let us avoid this scenario at all costs.

And whether Bush is in the White House, or Howard Dean, or Joe Schmoe, the terrorists are still coming, Bob.

These are the stakes.  These are the issues on the table.  And lawyers are not the solution to the problem.
 

106 insane_kufr  Mon, Dec 29, 2003 4:05:52am

#19 Bob

your previous statement,

I did not know that Bin Laden has confessed to being the "mastermind" behind 9/11;


is somewhat stupid, seeing as he actually did CONFESS to his followers in a videotaped meeting.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors.I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
UBL: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day.


we heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center.

Furthermore, UBL goes on to reveal prior knowledge of the criminal act - indicating a) conspiracy and b) culpability. He IS ergo, GUILTY, and deserving of death!

check out:
Smoking Gun

please, none of the comments about the International Jewish conspiracy being in control of the internet, OK?


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