For those not registered - try anonymous, anonymous. Worked for me!

LA Times hits bedrock, calls for dynamite and a backhoe!

Wotta rag.

Ah, this article is lame - and intentionally obfuscatory.

His basic point seems to be: if you can take credit as "Jews" for individual Jews' achievements, then you have to take blame as Jews for individual Jews' crimes. No mention of how other cultures (for instance - Muslims) aren't held to that standard.

Then he says: Anyway, the Holocaust was a long time ago - other people have suffered more since then - so why should we keep harping on anti-Semitism when other people are really suffering?

Feh.

LA NEEDS COMPETITION!!

We have got to get a competitive newspaper up and running in that town.. Its just too big a market to leave in the hands of the Times..

from texas originally but now in LA for life looks like, and not a day goes by that I don't think about this.. It's just got to happen..

that million man readership needs to be split up.. its not enough for me to cancell... They have to be struck where it hurts.. we must have competition.. and no I'm not talking about that other thin sheet in LA that I don't even remember the name of..

a real competitor..

NOW

UGH! And no matter how many incidents like this occur, so many fools continue to look to the LA Times, New Yorks Times, and CNN for their so-called news. It's just disgusting.

By the way, here are the results of the Watcher's Council vote for this week.

worked for the jewish community for many years...never encountered any anti-semitic incidents comments, etc. More often than not, adl, cjc, etc., use isolated incidents to justify their services and the expense of other, more dire services, such as jfs. It ain't pretty, but that's reality.

I'm too furious to even comment right now but one thing ...

But that makes anti-Semites out of Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu, not to mention tens of thousands of Jews.

It is well known what a Jew-hater Desmond Tutu is and Nelson Mandela is no friend of the Jews either.

Jewish Tribal Review?

Are you trying to tell me the Jews are getting into the Indian casino gambling business?

/weak joke mode off

one more thing...
before the "gaze" and "self-hating" comments are slung, i'd prefer to respond to those who have actually WORKED for the jewish community to state their case.

I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so.

How can anybody take seriously anything that comes from the media outlet that publish something written by a person who willingly admits the above?

The only answer that comes to mind is that LA deliberately taps the pool of the LLL self-righteous and other antisemites. Now, they would not do it of course, or are LATimes that disperate. Shrug ...

norar...

He didn't say that. He said that he'd use "any means possible..." as a mode of expression, the same way you'd say "any means possible" to help a relative who was being raped. Chill out.

#11 Odd - FOAD

Ok, who advertises in the LA Times? Disney? Eisner ain't Catholic.

the dogs can bark, but Israel keeps shining:

Israeli-developed chemical laser lauded as significant breakthrough for 2003

What else can you expect from a third world newspaper like the LA Times? Is it still printed using english?

Man, does he deserve a Fisking. I'll just dabble; I'm sure there are others who can do a more thorough job.

And can't Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch say that Israel has committed war crimes and violated human rights?
Don't you really wonder why those groups seem silent on Muslim atrocities, and yet hold Israel to an impossibly high standard, that is, the accusation is proof of guilt?

In the Congo, 3 million have died in 4 1/2 years. Perhaps anti-Semitism is not, after all, a high priority.
Plus, there's that whole mad-cow disease thing to work on, so let's just put anti-Semitism on the back burner, eh? You are a master of the non-sequitur, Neumann.

We should indeed guard against a resurgence of European fascism...
Riiight, but when we point it out, unless it's fomented by tattooed skinheads, you don't want to see it, and begin screaming "Racism, ethnocentrism, disestablishmentarianism," etc.

An appropriately stark reassessment might involve counting up the dead and wounded in the ADL's list of anti-Semitic incidents in 2002 and 2003. Its surveys include two Al Qaeda attacks. This is questionable: Al Qaeda's war on the United States, Israel, the West and pretty much everyone else seems independent of sentiment in the countries in which the attacks occurred. Include these attacks and the number of Jews killed in that period seems to be nine. Exclude them, and it falls to one, in Morocco. Jews hospitalized or incurring serious injuries falls to about a dozen.

Only one Jew has been killed because of his/her faith/ethnic identity the last two years. I'm perfectly willing to say the al Qaeda attacks targetted all Americans, but who does this @ssclown think is being targetted in Israel. And I've seen enough things here on LGF alone to know there have been more than a dozen Jews in Europe injured in the last two years.

I guess this goes back to the lies/obsfucation/whatever means necessary thing.

Just how outrageous, anti-semitic and vicious do such comments have to be to qualify as hate speech.

Can anyone say "double standard?"

How dare you acuse someone of lying!

/s

Even if they admit it! It's just not polite!

/s /s

Neumann has peddled the same theme before, in a longer piece in "Counterpunch," titled "What is Antisemitism?"

www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.htlm

Just one quote to give you the "feel" of how the professor thinks:

"Undoubtedly there is genuine antisemitism in the Arab world: the distribution of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the myths about strealing the blood of gentile babies. This is utterly inexcusable. So was your failure to answer aunt Bee's last letter."

Voila.

Why are any of us shocked or outraged.

As demonstrated over and over again newspapers have been willing to ignore things said in Arabic or to non-american audiances in order to paint terrorists and their friends as reasonable people who can and should be trusted.

Ignoring what people say in their own language as long as it wasn't said in a Major media outlet was bound to be next.

This will be shortly followed by ignoring statements not in the actual publication...

...followed then by ignoring statements that are made in the same publication as long as they are spaced at least a week apart.

After all we can't alter our template can we?

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

Doctor Who, Face of Evil Episode 4

Yet another "Goebels would be proud" moment.

Michael Neumann needs a "lesbians for Palestine" T-shirt.

odd

"...any mean possible..."

I guess when it comes to slandering, hating and killing Jooos, any means possible becomes any means necessary.

Isn't that right you cocksucker?

Will someone email the University, or the Times, I am too mad.

I am going to scream for Anquin Boldin to score a TD for a while...

I have a question. This asswipe gets caught outright and then lies thru his teeth about it. The guy makes Howard Dean look like a paragon. What is the psychology here? Is this guy related to Chumpsky?

This is a serious question. Insights welcome.

#11 odd

norar...

He didn't say that. He said that he'd use "any means possible..." as a mode of expression, the same way you'd say "any means possible" to help a relative who was being raped. Chill out.

He said "... I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.”

Obviously not a "mode of expression" you are trying to present this a. So chill out up yours, dear, and go on and try to defend the moron. Looks like you understand your baddy perfectly and are not a stranger to his tactics either.

#9 odd

Why limit it to people who've worked in the Jewish community? Do you think you know more than I do about what life is like as an "out" Jew in, say, San Francisco? Bullshit.

We had two bomb threats at our Jewish school a couple of years ago. This was preceded by an actual firebombing attempt of the synagogue next door. They found the broken bottles of gasoline on the roof. There had recently been a successful firebombing of a synagogue in Oakland, I believe (might have been Berkeley), and vandalism of a Hillel plus physical attacks on Jews around UC Berkeley.

These happened not long after a synagogue in the Sacramento area was burned. I donated money to help rebuild their library, which had been utterly destroyed.

So don't tell me about "I haven't seen or heard anything antisemitic." It's certainly happening in California - and elsewhere. Open your eyes.

AG in Houston (#24)

Will someone email the University, or the Times, I am too mad.

I can't trust myself to write to them right now either but I have sent those articles to the ADL, Honest Reporting and CAMERA. Expose the scum every which way possible and by scum I mean Michael Neumann and the LA Times.

I'm furious.

One really needs to see the JTR site to fully appreciate the foulness of Michael Neumann’s actions. It is an orgy of anti-Semitism and Jewish self-loathing.:

[Link: www.jewishtribalreview.org...]

Neumann is totally clueless. I wrote to him last year in response to an article he wrote in Counterpunch:

[Link: www.counterpunch.org...]

In his first e-mail response to me he claimed to be the descendants of German Jews (and he seems ready to boldly lead the Jewish people back into the ovens jus’ one mo’ time).

In his second response he sidesteps the Nazi origins of Palestinian nationalism and its founder, Hajj Amin el-Husseini (the Mufti of Jerusalem):

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:29:38 -0500
From: mneumann mneumann@trentu.ca
To: unstableelements@excite.com
Subject: Re: Yes, by all means...carry a fly swatter

Odd. Is this really directed at me? I never called the Israelis Nazis. As for the association of some Arabs with the Nazis, I'm not too impressed. For one thing, there were no doubt quite a few Arab units that fought against the Nazis, too. For another, ever heard of 'two wrongs don't make a right'? It never fails to amaze me how people think they can defend Israel by bitching about the Arabs. Like many people, I'd be quite happy if Israel just got out of the occupied territories and sealed the border which, as many Israeli defense people say, would much improve the security situation. But Israel stays in because it likes killing Arabs and taking their land better than it likes peace. My email is overflowing so, while I may be able to respond to further discussion, I can't promise to do so.

Dig it: 'two wrongs don't make a right'. This is the deep thinking of a Canadian professor? Uhhh... but “Self defense and survival” is not the same act as “Jihad and aggression”. Right?

Clueless.

Dave Brown (#31)

Lovely e-mail. He sounds like he needs to be institutionalized.

Boy, it looks like Charles' has a nasty case of the trolls today.

The enemy just grows stronger as the appeasment grows more insistent.

Boy howdy, guys one day the top is going to be blown off. And then all of these outted anti semitic enablers and the terrorists themselves won't be able to meld back into the wood work they slithered out of.

OT:
Green Bay is leading Denver. :)

Huh. Here is a follow-up on the French "comedian" Dieudonne.

French prosecutors have opened a preliminary investigation into a comedian's televised skit in which he purportedly took a swipe at the Jewish community.

The comedian appeared as an orthodox Jew who urged disaffected urban youth to join the "American-Zionist Axis".

Unfortunately ...

Last year, an appeals court acquitted him of slander after he called white Catholics "racist slavers".

so maybe it won't get too far.

#31, Dave Brown
#25 grayp

The Counterpunch we both cite (#31, #20) does offer some clue to his "psychology."
1. He is, as is Chomsky, one of those academic "lovers of humanity," but a hater of real human beings--whom both avoid as much as possible and treat as badly when contact is unavoidable.
2. The real human beings both had no choice in interacting with were their --yes--Jewish families, and they hate them, loathe them and hate Jewish culture in the bargain. They "love" far-away and very different people whom they would never rent their house to while on a sabbatical--such as the Palestinians.
During 17 years in academia, I met many just like them.

What to do with Neumann and Chomsky? Well, I'd like to take them out in a helicopter and drop them in a large vat of chopped chicken liver that's been sitting in the Negev for a week. But then, I've always been a romantic.

#6 odd

worked for the jewish community for many years...never encountered any anti-semitic incidents comments, etc.

You have evidently enjoyed a sheltered existence.

How about working in Paris, wearing a Star of David?

31
Somebody spent a lot of time and effort to post such a massively ignorant web site. Yeesh. I wonder how many degrees of separation that site is from Saudi funding.

Thanks for listing the a$$hats email address. Hopefully the less morally inclined will use that to sign up the doofus for lots of viagra and porno websites*

* Please note, I'd never advocate doing something that could be obnoxious or even illegal

Damn, this guy makes The List.

worked for the jewish community for many years...

So are you part of the International Zionist Conspiracy tm? Me too! An honorary member, but I nonethless get to go to the meetings, and the snacks are to die for.

Anyone interested in letting Michael Neuman know what you think about his LA Times editorial can go to the link below...includes his email address and offiice phone number and his photo (sigh)...go here...

[Link: www.trentu.ca...]

Dovid

I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so.

Hmmm. Now this asshole has de facto cast doubt on everything he says on this subject or any subject. Is he lying now. Is he lying now? Is he lying now?...

...Is he lying now? Is he lying now?...

But Israel stays in because it likes killing Arabs and taking their land better than it likes peace

That comment alone says it all. it negates any attempt he makes at clarifying his statements.

The L.A. Times is on a campaign to alienate every Jew in L.A., who probably account for most of their readership.

It's not just the Jordyptians blowing themselves up.

@41 Joey

Could it be? He's lying about lying? Or is he lying about lying about lying? What a treacherous web he weaves.

Sorry about putting this article here, but I thought that it was required reading, especially because of slime like Neumann and the LA Times.

`Not here, never again'
Christian leaders are asking Canadians to take their heads out of the sand, to understand that anti-Semitism occurs in many ways

JOHN W. MORDEN AND SANDRA R. DENSON

As our country nears the dawn of another new year, Canadians typically say to themselves, "things will be different and life will be better," We fervently hope so — but forgive our misgivings regarding one sad and salient element of Canadian life that seems to persistently ebb and flow, change into different forms ... yet never result in a better outcome. And that is, anti-Semitism in Canada.

This regrettable reality was driven home to us this month by the following fact: One of the most significant acts of interfaith solidarity against anti-Semitism in 2003 was announced on Dec. 8 and was greeted by most of the Canadian media with overwhelming indifference.

What was this important — even historic — act?

An open letter by the national leaders of nine Christian churches in Canada opposing anti-Semitism with the most compelling concepts in the clearest language possible. We think the lack of attention to their open letter is most unfortunate, for their words are well worth hearing, now more than any time in recent history.

What's newsworthy about that, some may ask. The truth is that these religious leaders — who represent the majority of Christian Canadians — have been so alarmed by the rising incidence and changing face of anti-Semitism that they believed they had to come together now and call for Canadians to confront anti-Semitism in our midst.

Further, they took the step of publicly acknowledging, "With no little shame, the historic burden of persecution which Jews have borne throughout western history, a burden all too often inflicted by Christians ... We challenge all churches ... and people of goodwill to find ways and means to expose and eradicate anti-Semitism within and from Canadian society ... We commit ourselves to demonstrating not only through words but through united action, our determination to confront anti-Semitism on every front."

These Christian leaders are asking Canadians to take their heads out of the sand, to understand that anti-Semitism occurs in many ways.

This was an extraordinary open letter, not only for its candour in stating the sad anti-Semitic role played at times by Christians, but in reaffirming that Jews and Christians are "children of one God" and "heirs in faith of Abraham and Sarah."

In fact, many deeply held convictions of Christian faith groups and of their leaders are not well-known or well-reported in Canada. For example, most Canadians do not think of Christian churches as being anti-Semitic — which, indeed, they are not — but probably do think of them as being not overly concerned with anti-Semitism. This latter categorically corrects that misconception.

Just as anti-Semitism has taken on different forms over the centuries, the approach to anti-Semitism by Church leaders has evolved.

Today, their outrage arises out of a passion for social justice and fairness that is rooted in their theology.

What can Canadians do about anti-Semitism?

A great deal, on an individual, day-to-day level. First, if you hear anti-Semitic jokes or statements — speak out.

If you see a Jewish person, especially a child, experiencing a hate-motivated verbal attack — step in.

If you know a Jewish sacred property has been defaced — lend a hand to help fix it.

Indeed, it is vital that Christians take active steps to understand their Jewish brothers and sisters better.

Many Christians do not come into significant contact with Jews throughout their entire lives.

That condition makes it easier to turn a blind eye when confronted with anti-Semitism, or even more insidious, to not even be aware of it in the first place.

Canadians, with some justification, are proud of the tolerance, fairness and sanctuary for refugees that they see as national characteristics.

But we should not take on a tone of moral superiority, given that anti-Semitism has been a part of Canada's history.

The Church leaders' open letter asks Christians to "become acquainted" with Jewish people. What that simply means is: Wherever there is an opportunity to talk to a Jewish person about their impressions of pressing issues — do it.

Old-fashioned listening and learning from each other is the only way to truly become more sensitive to the impact of anti-Semitism on them.

The fact that such an open letter even was necessary is a stinging comment on the deplorable rise of anti-Semitism.

But, it would be tragically negligent to ignore or downplay this phenomenon and not to recognize that the need still exists for a public statement like that of Church leaders.

We sometimes ask ourselves, did we learn nothing from the Holocaust? If that didn't convince humankind of the all too real extreme outcome of anti-Semitism, then what will?

Perhaps it is the ability of anti-Semitism to continuously reappear in new forms that insinuate themselves into the times.

Today, for instance, anti-Semitism can be masked as "anti-Zionism" or "anti-Israel," which allows odious instincts to be revived.

These euphemisms should not be tolerated any more than the more obvious desecrations of Jewish cemeteries and memorials or attacks on synagogues or hate mail on the Internet — they are all equally unacceptable and equally threatening.

Just as dangerous is the silence of good people. That is what Canadians can do — not be silent in the face of anti-Semitism.

In fact, we believe that standing up and saying, "this is anti-Semitism and it is wrong" is the only true Christian response.

Perhaps this points the way to a New Year's anti-Semitism resolution — that 2004 will be the year all Christians and Jews can say "Not here, never again" and believe it.

---
John W. Morden is a retired judge of the Court of Appeal for Ontario and Sandra R. Denson is a Toronto family lawyer. Both are elders in the Presbyterian Church in Canada.

...for those who don't want to click on a link...here is Michael Neuman's info...remember be civil and polite when sending your email or calling him..

Dovid
---

Michael Neuman
Associate Professor of Philosophy

Office
TC WH 104

Phone
(705) 748-1011 x 1706

Fax
(705) 748-1721

Email
mneumann@trentu.ca

Website

Professor Neumann obtained his B.A. in English and History at Columbia University (1968) and his Ph.D. in Philosophy at the University of Toronto in 1975. His interests include Ethics, Political Philosophy, Formal Logic, Philosophy of Logic, and Metaphysics. His publications include articles on Utilitarianism, behavioural rat

Hmm, His CV indicates that he fancies himself an expert in metaphysics, but I don't remember Aristotle saying anything about explaining the world by walking around with your head 10 feet up your small intestine, a skill that Neuman has not only mastered, but readily demonstrates.

I am so deeply saddened. If it were the opposite --

“... I have far more interest in helping the Jews. I would use nothing but truth, justice and clear rhetoric, to do so. If an effective strategy meant that the terrible truths about the Palestinians come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means pilloring Arab anti-Semitism or using force against hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means wiping out vicious racist anti-Semitism using the biggest stick, or the annexation of all lands surrounding Israel, I still don’t care. Israel needs to exist if but for no other reason than it is the mother country of so many incredibly laudable, talented, generous and successful contributers to society.”

Now, if that were to be written in a "respectible" journal such as the NYT or LAT, of SFGate, or ... well, what kind of utterly wahabi outrage do you think would come flying our way? Hmmm???

I await the day.

GoatGuy

i'd prefer to respond to those who have actually WORKED for the jewish community to state their case.

Let's see, I was on my synagogue Board of Directors and I'm on the Board of Directors for our community wide Jewish funeral home. Is that worked enough for the Jewish community for you? I personally have never seen anti-Semitism except for the following incidents:

1) My son was approached at a party by a member of White Aryan nation trying to recruit him. (Someday remind me to describe the very amusing nature of this coward's airborne exit from the party at the hands of six Zionists while his equally cowardly buddies ran away.)

2) Once had my children's school painted with swatikas and "Die Jews" graffitti.

3) I've been discriminated against multiple times in my work place for wanting to cover my head and take Jewish holidays off.

4) I got pelted with rocks and foul language by a group of Ukrainian teenagers outside of Chabad house.

5) I hosted a young orthodox couple accosted on the street one shabbot by an anti-Semite who tried to run them down.

6) My husband was eventually driven out of a university department because of hatred against Jews, very subtly and carefully exerted over a number of years against him.

7) I have a synagogue member I spoke with just last Shabbot who is suing his former employer because they kept the hallways and ceilings where he worked spray painted with swastika graffitti and harrassed him until he left.

Shall I go on? I have plenty more examples. They average about one per year. I have never once, ever, seen anyone in the Jewish community cry "anti-Semitism" without full justification. In fact, the Jewish community often prefers not to make a fuss about it and lets it go. Group like ADl and CJC congress do excellent work keeping the incidence down and garnering support from the larger community when such incidents occur. It would be much much worse if they weren't doing their job.

I think you are a lying anti-Semitic crud bag pretending you worked for the Jewish community here so you can spread you foul lies about Jews. You are so obviously a Troll. I dare you to reveal your real name and what Jewish community you worked where you claim you never once encountered anti-Semitism and you saw false accusations of anti-Semitism being used to Jewish advantage. You won't, of course, because you are so obviously a liar. troll, and an evil doer.

Heidegger was a professor of philosophy
Heidegger was a Nazi.
Nazis hate Jews

Neumann is a professor of philosophy
Neumann hates the Jews
Therefore, Neumann is a nazi.

maybe i need to go to philosophy classes and learn how to think

Associate Professor of Philosophy
Office
TC WH 104
Phone
(705) 748-1011 x 1706
Fax
(705) 748-1721
Email
mneumann@trentu.ca

Website

Secretary
Elsie Scott, TC KH 204 x 1817

Professor Neumann obtained his B.A. in English and History at Columbia University (1968) and his Ph.D. in Philosophy at the University of Toronto in 1975. His interests include Ethics, Political Philosophy, Formal Logic, Philosophy of Logic, and Metaphysics. His publications include articles on Utilitarianism, behavioural rationality, and the rule of law. He is the author of two books, What's Left? and The Rule of Law.

What can Canadians do about anti-Semitism?

I'd have to personally say that for every incident I have experienced thart was negative, at least ten non-Jewish people stepped forward and defended me or helped me fix whatever the problem one, sometimes a hundred!

#49 Judith

you're making me hot

#49 Judith,

4) I got pelted with rocks and foul language by a group of Ukrainian teenagers outside of Chabad house.

Our Chabad house was hit this Chanukah. Some Nazi-loving anti-Semites vandalized the menorah standing outside the front door and left a bunch of flyers calling for cutting off funding to Israel.
At first I didn't even realize what I was looking at when my rabbi showed me the flyers with the card of the police officer that took the report of the incident attached.

A couple weeks ago someone scratched up the glass doors too, but that may have just been a gang activity and not an anti-Semitic incident.

It makes me sick to see my struggling, little synagogue take hits like that.

OT:

An unworthy Archbishop

The Archbishop of Canterbury gets a caning in the DT

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

This archbishop is bleeding with concern for Muslims in Britain who are occasionally subject to 'looks'. However for Christians in Islamic nations he has scant concern.

Alright. What's the deal with b (#52)? Are these posts coming from the same person or different people?

In the Congo, 3 million have died in 4 1/2 years. Perhaps anti-Semitism is not, after all, a high priority

how many palestinian terrorists have been killed since the intifada began 15 years? a thousand? (and if they are terrorists - they deserve to be killed, anyway)

perhaps, Palestinianism is not, after all, a high priority... only among anti-semites

b
Get lost, you fuggen loser.

#54 DP

OT.

The same happend in Washington DC according to this comment Grrr...

What is up with 'b'? Can the idiot just be banned already?

Several Aboriginal youth rescued our local Chabad rabbi from some thugs once, and escorted him to and from his synagogue for a long while after a "white" gang were making trouble for him. They refused any payment or reward. They just did it.

Ah the b-swatter needs to be used. :)

#31 Dave Brown

Are you from Jersey?

From your post:

For one thing, there were no doubt quite a few Arab units that fought against the Nazis, too.
Could Prof. Neumann name a few for the unenlightened?

But Israel stays in because it likes killing Arabs and taking their land better than it likes peace. My email is overflowing so, while I may be able to respond to further discussion, I can't promise to do so.

His last sentence clearly expresses that he cannot defend the latter, so he is fleeing the discussion in order not to be put into a corner and defend his lie.

What a schmuck. Hope he lives long and painfully.

I'm not sure what's up with b either but if his/her comment about 'making me hot' means he/she is getting angry fine, but it may well be an attempt to silence me with the inuendo a sexual threat as in "your outrage makes me feel like raping you". Rape is very common form of oppression of women and raping of minority group women is a very common form of oppression of minority groups.

It is also happens to be the weapon of choice used by Islamofacists for oppression. Islamofacist leaders frequently promise their followers nonbeliever's women as rewards for killing their men.

Of course, killing the men and raping the women is usually a lot more problematic than they expect it to be, especially when the Islamofacists try it with American and Israelis.

My guess is that b is an indymediot troll.

49 Judith:

I worked for Federation CJA, in the Planning and Allocations department. Enough said. I'm a proud Jew, have spent time in Israel (3 weeks volunteering for the IDF), and daven at an Orthodox shul. HOWEVER...having worked for USY, Federation CJA...I have often felt that "cry wolf" was used to justify budget expansions. My observation has been confirmed by many of my friends and colleagues who work for Hillel and UJA. Not all, but some.

I must say though, your hysterical rambling about my post being "anti-semitic" only proves my point. Some Jews see '39-'45 occuring everyday of their lives. I do not.

I wrote a letter to the LA Times, raising the issue of Neumann's ugly comments to the Jewish Tribal Review website and the fact that he was forced to apologize by his employer. However, there are other good letters that could be written about this demented op-ed:

1. Ask the Times if they thought Neumann's thesis would hold for other groups besides Jews: e.g. If its not racist to say that African-Americans have contributed to America, then it can't be racist to say that African-Americans have befouled America. Ask if such an op-ed could be published in any newspaper.

2. Ask the Times if they would agree that we need not care about racism against African-Americans or Gays, since the number of racist and homophobic murders in the US is very low compared to say, the number of people dead in Indian bus accidents or Chinese mine disasters.

3. Ask if Neumann would agree that its not anti-Semitic to blame Jews as a group for the killing of Christ, since some Jews were involved. Ask if Jews should be blamed as a group for the wrongs committed by Communists, Socialists, Anarchists, Corporate Executives or Movie Producers, since some Jews belong to each of those groups.

4. Challenge Neumann's claims that Jews have not been targeted - point out the recent synagogue bombings in Turkey (which killed a dozen Jews), Algeria and Morroco and the fact that hate crimes against Jews in Europe and the US have recently increased.

5. If you are from Canada, provide the Trent U. information, the fact that Neumann was investigated and apologized for publishing hatred - perhaps the Times is more likely to publish it from someone closer to scene of the crime.

6. Ask what the point of publishing a long op-ed downplaying anti-Semitism was. Was it to make anti-Semitism more acceptible? Or is it that people who like to attack Jews as a group feel constrained when they themselves are criticized? How does allowing group criticism comport with the tenets of "diversity"?

There are many good writers at LGF - I hope a few take the time to write a letter and keep this hateful sewage from going unchallenged.

#62 Judith

You sound lovely and accomplished.

#63 Judith

Your views on the BSE controversy aside, crap like b really pisses me off.

I'm still wondering if it's the same person making all these posts as "b". If it is, then b has a personality disorder that really needs to be addressed.

PDM when our school was hit a company that removes graffitti arrived with all their equipment and offered to clean off the bricks for free within a couple of hours of the news hitting the local media without anyone even asking them.

I'm very sorry your synagoue got hit, especially on Hannukah, but good people outnumber the bad ones by a huge margin and if you ask for help it comes, and sometimes help comes even if you don't ask.

#63 Judith

My oh my Judith...what a post. You are quite the hysterical one aren't you?

The disease known as Islam has entirely infected the left. Any effort to exterminate American Islam needs to include a plan to eradicate the American left.

#70

What is with you people? "The disease known as Islam..." My God, some of you are the shadow side of indymedia.

We built a snow hanunkiah on our front lawn and each day of Hanukah added another "candle" (cardboard roll covered with coloured construction paper, with a cellophane "flame").

Last night, some time between 10 pm (when my husband and I came home) and 3:30 am (when my daughters came home), someone--or several people--knocked out the candles and stomped on the hanukiah with large boots. When I looked out this morning I assumed the wind, which is very strong today, had blown the candles over. But when I went outside I saw the boot prints.

It's probably just some youngsters in a vandalizing mood, but it did make me wonder.

Perhaps Neumann is the troll. From the article posted in #20 by observer:

This is utterly inexcusable. So was your failure to answer aunt Bee's last letter."

Maybe that's getting it hot.

#70 The Law Student

Any effort to exterminate American Islam needs to include a plan to eradicate the American left.

How do you propose to go about 'eradicating the American left'?

I sent a letter to the LA Times exposing Neumann. Although i was very angry I made cerain I didn't swear or threaten.

Try this addy

readers.rep@latimes.com

#68 Judith,

when our school was hit a company that removes graffitti arrived with all their equipment and offered to clean off the bricks for free within a couple of hours of the news hitting the local media without anyone even asking them.

I'm sure seeing such a response was heartwarming. It's good to hear that you are in a community that cares enough to respond like that.
We are in a city where the police response is very good and the city maintains its own graffiti clean-up crew. Fortunately we do not see incidents like this too often, but these were certainly not the first time. Usually it is just stupid stuff like egging the building.
Some good came out of it though. I got a wake-up call to remind me how important that modest store-front synagogue is to me.

Jail Britons fly home from Yemen

Two Britons convicted on terrorism charges in Yemen have flown home following their release from prison.

Sarmad Ahmed, 26, and Shahid Butt ¹, 38, both from Birmingham, were among 10 people jailed in 1999 for five years for their part in a terrorist plot.

The group was linked to Islamic radicals who kidnapped 16 Westerners in 1998, four of whom were killed.

Do any of you Britons out there choke when you hear something like

Two other Britons, Malik Nassar Harhra and Mohsin Ghailan, have two years left to serve of their sentences, a British Embassy official told AP news agency.

I do, and I'm not even a Briton.

¹ LOL! Does that translate as "Martyr's Ass" or something?

#64

odd..

so..ummm...what was your point again?

That anti semitism is not all that bad? or Mike Nuemann is not all that bad? or both? or what?

What are your thoughts on his email?

I might be willing to agree that the US is not yet exploding with anti semetic hate, but what of Europe?

Worked in the french jewish community? how bout Germany? Middle east?

is that yu chomsky?

Charles--

You say that Neumann should not be published because he admits that he would lie for the cause.

By that standard, every Palestinian spokesperson, every Third World demagogue, every Western Intellectual who lauds Arafat and his thugs, or Nasrallah and his thugs, or Yassin and his thugs, as freedom fighters rather than terrorists, should not be published.

Because if you can defend cold-blooded murder, you will not hesitate to lie.

I say publish them all. But with appropriate disclaimers.

The LA Times should NOT have run the column WITHOUT warning readers of the extent of this man's biases.

I've just looked at 'Jewish Tribal Review'

Its as ugly as Goebbels.

Arvin, LA Examiner.
Rest of youse, what is it with b? It can't be the same b that I remember.
quark2, what a rout, so far :-)

ev
b is an unhappy, self-important fruit-fly.

I sent this page to Hugh Hewitt. He already hates the LAT, and his radio show originates in LA. He has probably read this, but I wanted to make sure.

People like Neuman are anaerobic. They can't survive in the presence of light and fresh air, which is why academic freedom is an anachronism. This guy is pus and LGF is the antibiotic.

WTF!!! Ahman Green!
Awesome.

Good lord. The Broncs are imploding before my very eyes.

Ho. Lee. Shit.
Packers own Broncos. Touchdown, again.

2 touchdowns in 8 seconds? That has to be a record.

Has to be, you're right.

evariste - and the first one was a 98 yard run!

An Open Letter to Professor Micahel Neuman:

Congratulations on succeeding in publishing your article on anti-Semetism at the LA Times. While I usually do not rise to discuss matters with genocidal bigots, in your case I will make an exception.

You have publicly stated you believe in the destruction of the State of Israel and it's replacement with a Palestinian State. Since this necessarily means that many, if not most, of the Jews of Israel would perish or fall under the totalitarian rule of the Palestinian kleptocracy, I am curious to what system of advanced metaphysics and philosophy enables you to advocate the second destruction of Jewish civilization in seventy years and their enslavement/entry into permanent second class citizenship under the Arab boot.

What crime or crimes have the Jews committed that that renders them worthy of such a hash judgment? By what system of judgment do you, advocate never applying the death penalty in cases of individual criminal action but feel that it is OK to do so collectively in the case of the Jews. As you have asserted that it is OK for others to use what would otherwise be immoral means to effectuate this end, have you ever asserted any other goal that also results in the destruction of a democratic nation state?

The point of this letter is not for you to reply; your words are meaningless, your deeds, your written words, speak worlds of your character and base hatred in your heart. Rather this letter is designed so others can see what you advocate and the mentality-ideology that enables the robotic mindless fascism of today's leftist intellectual to be devoid and incapable of formulating moral reason.

Why the Jews, Professor Neumann? Why do no other people deserve to be destroyed?

I close in what I know use as my signature statement to bigots like you, please look in the mirror when you say this: "It is because of people like me that Israel has a developed a nuclear arsenal."

And please don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out of this world.

Thom-apparently Manning had two in seven last season against the Giants, link.

Would you guys mind keeping your running commentary to one thread. This is actually bloody annoying.

@63 Judith

Is it your turn in the barrel today? Yesterday it was observer, for no apparent reason.

Charles, do we have corresponding ip addresses on yesterdays' thread and this one today?

I suspect one of our 'new' posters is writing, standing in the 4th position. :)

Sorry zulubaby :-)

Peyton Manning is the anti-christ.

#92 zulubaby

{sorry}

#80

The neo-nazis who run the "Jewish Tribal Review" republished Neumann's articles from Counterpunch which blamed American Jews for the "crimes" of Israel. This is only one of many examples of the cross-pollination of jewhate between the far right, the far left and Islamic radicals. White racist sites such as Stormfront regularly report on Israeli acts toward the Palestinians and cite writers such as Fisk and Chomsky. Muslim newspapers, even in America, publish pieces by David Duke and excerpts from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And the far left, as we see on the campuses of our universities, are begining to physically attack Jews and Jewish institutions.

Sorry guys, I'm not looking to ruin your fun, but it's getting a bit much with it on two threads. My tolerance level is a little low right now too, I'm really upset that this article was published, that this neo-Nazi gets to spread his vile ideas in the LA Times.

No worries.

I am left speechless by this. I didn't think it was possible for Charles to shock me anymore than he has in the past with the amazing things he has uncovered, but this is just a new level. Charles, you are one of the few actual journalists in America today, and you're not even getting paid for it.
I think the LA Times (and the rest of old media) simply don't know how to deal with it. The truth is so far out, so extreme, that they just refuse, and go ahead and publish his stuff as if he was any old professor (although I bet the vast majority of professors agree with everything he has to say). I had to reread this post five times and reread all the linked-to material before I would accept it. Just unbelievable.
I really and truly don't know what to say. Here is a professor calling for the destruction of a state and the murder of millions. If his 'enemy' was anybody other than the Jews, he would already have a bullet in his head. Instead, he gets a million+ circulation soapbox. Staggering.
And for a short while this holiday season I was beginning to feel optimistic about the future.
Oh well.

Charles, you are one of the few actual journalists in America today, and you're not even getting paid for it.

Pay him then! :-)

#97 zulubaby

No prob. I feel much as you do, so it's a bit cathartic (for me at least) to vent over something as trivial as football.

#71 odd,

"Islam as disease"

You have a better description?

#97 Zulubaby

You know sometimes it's not all bad that this shit sees the light of day. People need to wake up - especially
American Jews who tend not to pay attention to politics.

evariste and Thom:
{If the Donkey's needed to win, they would have more star players on board and they would be kicking some major cheese head-butt} ;)
The Donkeys are getting ready to lose big in the playoffs... ;)

#35 Observer. 'k, been thinking. I graduated from a private high school. A graduation requirement was that we had to choose a major, write a paper and defend it orally. I majored in philosopy, and continued it in college (although I did not graduate).

If you learn nothing else in the discipline you learn to BS. In the very first college course I took, the first exam had one question: Explain why Socrates accepted the hemlock. 50 minutes to write the response. One guy was up and out the door in, I swear, 2 nanoseconds. We got our papers back the next class. Only one student got an A. Guess who. His entire answer consisted of "To escape his wife".

Then the prof proceeded to rip us all new ones. Common sense and profound knowledge of the human condition are prerequisites for any understanding of the conversation that is philosophy. I never forgot it. I also, in the academic environment, never encountered it again.

Academia is replete with people who fool no one in the real world and get precisely the respect they deserve; el zippo. The ivy that grows on those hallowed halls is fertilized by their BS.

Neumann and his ilk never wanted truth, justice, compassion or fairness. They are motivated by vanity and sheltered by an environment that feeds their need to be thought of as uber-brains.

They are meeting their nemesis. The internet.

Whoever posted that they sent this page to Hewitt had a good idea. I'm sending mine to Fox and Media Research Center.

Blah blah blah.

The blah-bomb was for bigel, not you, grayp.

Islam is a disease? works for me.
Though, I would sayradicalIslam is a disease.
No question.
Hell, liberalism is a disease.

ethos (#103)

Maybe you're right. I'm awfully upset about it though, especially with the LA Times. I would like to see Michael Neumann suffer consequences for his actions. Why should someone like that be allowed to continue to spew his hatred in a university? The whole thing is just disturbing. Some days the anti-Semitism really gets me and I think I'm having one of those days.

Bigel - you're right about anti-semitism, but this latest just proves that it is not confined to Europe - you've got it in the US too.

In fact nowhere seems to be immune from this disease. And the Left is worse than the skinhead KKK types on the right because they are seen as respectable in the media.

Why is he so interested in "helping" palestinians, among the least deserving cultures on the planet, at the expense of truth and justice?

Which comes first, the jew-hatred or the desire to "help"?

Why would he select depraved, blood-obsessed. self-destructive and self-oppressing mobsters like the palestinians for his tender aid and mercies?

112 bluemerle

The Palestinians are the darlings of the Left.

At one time the Chinese were the darlings of the Left. Now they're getting a bit Capitalist so you don't hear much about them. If, unlikely as it seems, the Palis ever got they're act together and became successful, the Left would hate them as the left only likes losers.

zulubaby, check your email.

#107 everiste: Hey! I can blah blah blah with the best of them!

LOL!

I mean, is it a "commie" thing, or something? He sees them as possible torchbearers of the revolution?

I just don't get it.

The Commies have never gotten over Israel ditching the Commie bullshit, have they...

[Link: reason.com...]

I sent the professor from Trent U a comment made by the Jewish philosopher, Jackie Mason. But, first, I told him that one day he would wake up like the Colonel (Alec Guiness) and cry out, "MY G-d, what have I done."

For what it's worth, my opinion of the so-called Palestinians and Arabs of the ME hasn't changed in 45 years--they were filthy, murderous scum then and they haven't changed since.

When growing up, one confronted bullies with a quick, painful punch--once it was determined they were bullies!! The worst bullies were the little guys with the complex!!--you really couldn't win. Well, it's still best to punch quick and hard and let other's complain about "picking on the little guy". It's a lousy analogy about Israel's problem to day, however, I still believe they should punch hard and often.

A message for ODD and B, GFY"S!!!

#110, Zulubaby. It is rather unfortunate that university paychecks rather than foodstamps are the reward for intellectual diralects such a Neuman. If the tenure system were done away with, those of Neumans ilk would be eating in soup kitchens or be forced to make a comparetively honest living as bunco artists or burglers. I guess that intellectually mugging 19 year olds is as close to violence as his kind gets (unless he can get them to blow up for him). The cathedrals of Western culture are looking more like cesspits every day.

116 bluemerle

I think it's a subsitute commie thing - the Palis are a rallying point for anti-Western sentiment.

The Left is always inconsistent - they claim to champion gay rights, womens rights, etc, yet they support 'cultures' that brutally oppress both gays and women. The key to understanding these leftie morons is to look at the one thing about them that IS consistent, namely anti-Western/American/capitalist thinking.

touche, ethos.

I can't stand the bias!

Qureia also said he would ask Saudi Arabia to step up its financial support for the cash-strapped Palestinian Authority.

The Palestinian economy has been badly harmed by more than three years of violence, and more than 60 percent of the Palestinian Authority budget is supplied by international donors.

Firstly, where is all the damn money? Why don't any of the "international donors" bother finding out? They know full well that they are funding terrorism but it's not considered terrorism when it's Jews being slaughtered.

Secondly, what about the Israeli economy? WTF are these "journalists" doing? I am so sick and tired of this. The Palestinians decided to wage war on the Israelis and now I'm supposed to cry about their sinking economy? Bastards. This world is insane.

Why does nobody care when Jews are murdered? What the hell has happened to people that they can't tell right from wrong on the most basic issues? The Palestinians are a charity case, they don't have an economy to speak of, they are utterly useless. What do they contribute to this world but mayhem and violence and hatred? The Israelis contribute so much and yet they're the ones that are reviled. I don't get it, nothing makes sense anymore.

zulubaby

I think I'll email him. I look at this way. His position in life is to educate, not to prostylize hatred. That makes him an abject failure in his chosen position. His is supposed to be a place of education, civilized grotwth and honour as a role model for coming generations.
He is none of these. My message to him is, his place in history is one of failure.

ZB

How was your night out?

#110 zulubaby: Hatrred in a university is not, in and of itself, wrong. It is the intellectual dishonesty that is the more important issue here.

Hatred of slavery is a good thing. Hatred of genocide is a good thing. There can be no moral equivalence about these things.

But proudly professed dishonesty by an educator responsible for preparing students to think critically and morally, and to make good judgements as citizens out in the world is not defensible and marks Neumann as unfit to receive the paycheck he's getting.

#110 Zulubaby.

It is distressing - and only getting worse. I share your grief.

and RE: #120 - [what "he" said... (or she)]

unfortunately, not enough conservative thinkers go into the teaching profession.

Quark2

I hope you say that to him in your e-mail - excellent point.

Thom,

The outrage of the day plus our horrible football team in purple. It's a rough day. I'm drinking.

quark2, please e-mail him. I can't. I'm too emotional about this and can't keep myself from ranting. You write well and you always make good sense.

grayp (#126)

I understand that, I didn't mean anything but that. I really despise dishonesty, it angers me more than anything. I don't tolerate liars well at all.

Ed Moran (#125)

It was fabulous, thanks :-)

Don't forget the British broke all the rules to get the US into the war.

And the Maki broke all the rules or many as underground freedom fighters.

If you fail to make a moral distinction, which the left and the terrorists are rife to do, you can fancy yourself as a daring underdog fighter, fighting against the odds.

These guys are nuts, but I think this has something to do with it.

#105 Grayp

What a great story about your old philosophy prof! Too bad that these days "common sense" seems to have left the building, especially in academia but unfortunately elsewher as well.

ZB

Well, the in-law inn wasn't open, so my wife watched some of the Jack Black "SNL" re-run, after watching Iron Chef French Sakai defeat the head chef of the Chinese restaurant at the ANA Sheraton in a beef battle.

Did anyone ever see the anglerfish battle? That was pretty disgusting

Did you know that before Iron Chef, Chairman Kaga played Tony in the Japanese stage production of "West Side Story"?

Ed Moran, what's with the lesbian seagulls and what's the in-law inn? I have no idea what you're talking about :-)

#128,Free Speech ect. Not enough thinkers period, go into education. Most people have better things to do than spend their days avoiding stepping into the little landmine shaped piles of shit (or is that shitpile shaped landmines?) that have been distributed through the tax supported school systems of the leading cities of this nation. The good teachers that have survived this environment cannot be cannonized because it would upset the ACLU, however they should be. The average product of an educational system exactly mirrors the average expectations of the society or community that supports it. well, you may have to cheat and kill some administrators and air theifs to obtain the average performance level. The lowering of the performance expectations will make them easier to achieve, temporarily, until they must be lowered again, to achive the newly desired diminished result.

@123 zulubaby

I want to share an analogy with you. This is a true story.
When I worked for Shell Oil, in the field as an operator I witnessed just the kind of attitude you are frustrated about.
We had on our crew one individual who was MORE industrious, MORE energetic, MORE efficient, MORE honest, MORE focused. Many of the others hated him, because he set a standard higher than they wanted to have to meet. It meant they had to APPLY themselves to a higher level of quality. Many times work or jobs he had done would be sabotaged out of a vicious attitude.
You could walk through the unit he was responsible for and see his handiwork, the utility hoses would be rolled and hung properly, wrenches hung properly, all lines ups correct and safe. And some numbnuts would come in behind him and undo all of his work.
It's jealousy, hatred of higher standards, committment and just good old hard work that is detested.
That's what you're looking honey.

Lesbian Seagulls is a Beavis & Butthead reference. I was mentioning to someone that when Gordon posts, I think of Mr. Van Dreesen.

The In-Law Inn, ie, my wife's parents, aka, mis suegros, is the place our children stay if my wife and I are to go out on a Saturday night. The In-Law Inn having no vacancies means we didn't go out.

zulubaby

Boy I can tell from my even previewed writing the head cold medicine is kicking in.

I could go on forever in talking about the base human nature.
I know you are distraught, but even with all of the weighted odds that Jews have to face daily there is so much brilliance that still shines through.

Every time I read one of those links that gets posted here about another breakthrough, new technology, another miracle occuring that involves Jews I feel hope surge through me once again.

The last time anti-semitism was promoted this publicly, WWII broke out.

American Socialists and Communists protested America's involvement.

European Jews caught literal hell.

Europe believed appeasement worked.

America tried keeping her enemies at bay with sanctions.

Socialist and Communist groups in America preached isolationism. It wasn't any of our business.

Different enemy, same story. Get ready.

OT - It's going to be an interesting and dangerous new year, 2004. It's going to maybe be a banner year for rat-hole construction.

Commentary: 1.5 million fingers on trigger

The House of Saud must now face the evidence that its clergy did not heed instructions to cease and desist undermining the future of Pakistan.

#137 gymnast

Yes - and we all know the Teachers Union is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party.

Competition of ideas and ideology. where is it?
It's just a sad fact that liberal arts/social science departments are filled with leftists who don't teach but preach.

Actually - there is hope to report. I live in a college town with a very left-wing university. I've witnessed that there is indeed a small tricking stream of individual/conservative thought that is gathering strength. I am not a student, but I attend lectures.
I was pleased to hear reports of Michael Moore refutation on black boards in campus classrooms.

But I digress...

What about a little ideological balance/diversity on campus especially among the social science departments? The left are always talking about their love of diversity - I guess true diversity only matters
when it accommodates their agenda.

#141

I forgot to add:

The League of Nations proved impotent and unwilling to stop proliferators of hate.

The only difference I see is that now, it seems, a number of Americans actually encourage America's defeat. We refer to them as the LLL.

138 quark2: IIRC, you had posted awhile back that you were offshore in Saudi Arabia? Is that what this post is referring to?

quark2, I appreciate your caring, you're a great lady. I need to refocus, I'm a bit off today. It's hard you know, to keep up this constant fight. Just on a personal level and thinking about my family and what amazing people they are and what incredible work they do. Do they deserve to be hated because they happen to be Jews? Have you ever been to Israel?

Ed Moran, you're so funny and quirky. I see you were having a couple of inside jokes with yourself there. I do that too :-)

Um, unsalted Cracker, have you met bigel?

#143 FreeSpeech, you might be interested in this:

Foundation for Individual Rights in Education: FIRE

"I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so."

And this is coming from a guy who wrote a book called "the Rule of Law".

BTW - everyone.

I am currently reading a book by David Horowitz called: "Left Illusions: An Intellectual Odyssey"

I am really enjoying it and find I can't put it down.
I highly recommend this book.
David Horowitz was raised by communists and was himself a communist/left-wing ideologue and writer.
He realizes he was wrong and it details why.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

... and HE details why..

# 147 - thanks

What's a "Chabad house" ?

b-
couple of historical notes:

not sure what rules the brits broke to "get the US into the war." FDR knew and planned for the US to enter the war. There was zero chance that the US would side with the Axis.

Then Hitler did the world a favor and declared war on America- three and half years later the dust of his cremated ashes danced lightly in the fires that stretched from one end of Berlin to the other.

So this new years, hoist one for all the heroes who made the victory possible, including the 10 million Russians who fell destroying the monster.

In the fight against fascism there are no rules. If Israel wiped Arafat off the map tomorrow, the Palestinians would stop their war.

@145 grayp

No, this happened at a complex here in the states.

I was amazed at the arrogance, intolerance and ignorance of these people, but it didn't stop the operator from doing his usual excellent job.

More lies from Dr. Demento Michael Neumann--->

The Palestinians don't set out to massacre children, that is, they don't target daycare centers. (Nor do they scalp children, but according to the BBC, that's what Israel's clients did in Sabra and Shatila.) They merely hit soft targets, and this sometimes involves the death of children. But, like anyone, they will kill children to prevent the destruction of their society. If peoples have any right of self-preservation, this is justified. Just as Americans love to do, the Palestinians are "sending a message": you really don't want to keep screwing with us. We will do anything to stop you. And if the only effective way of stopping their mortal enemies involved targeting daycare centers, that would be justified too. No people would do anything less to see they did not vanish from the face of the earth.

Bethlehem & Beyond

Christmas brings our thoughts to Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, a town the carol remembers as lying still, in deep and dreamless sleep.

Alas, Bethlehem now knows little stillness or sleep and, if Mary and Joseph were to arrive, life might be even more difficult — and the flight to Egypt come earlier.

Bethlehem's Christians, gathered around the Church of the Nativity — one of Christianity's holiest sites — were shaken last year when 200 Palestinians, firing Kalashnikovs, knocked down the church doors to escape the Israelis. They remained inside for 39 days, while eight people were killed and more than 25 were wounded. Never before had armed men been in the Nativity.
...

It's a good article.

O little town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie!
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth the everlasting Light;
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.

What's a "Chabad house" ?

Chabad is another name for the Lubavitcher Hasidic sect of ultra-Orthodox Jews. They are the ones who proselytize to non-Observant Jews and they have "Chabad houses" all over the world (inc. China, Africa, etc) where all Jews can get kosher food and religious services.

#135 Ed

... Chairman Kaga is the Japanese equivalent of William Shatner? No, can't be!! :p

About Herr Professor Neumann... We need to ask him where he left his hackenkreutz armband and why he isn't wearing it. We should probably also ask how many times he has masturbated while watching "Triumph of the Will."

@146 zulubaby

Have I ever been to Israel? Only in a vision. :)
I would love to go, and I would probably be bitter in having to leave once there.

Here's another analogy for you. :)
Back in 1991 as I was traveling down I-45 south from League City to Santa Fe where I used to live a spectacular thing happened to me.
There had been a severe thunderstorm that afternoon, and as I was driving I noticed a rainbow developing.
You'll never imagine where the end of the rainbow ended...right on the hood of my truck. It happened twice in a matter of minutes.
That was in August, in December an event happened that changed the course of my life. My husband and I bought a wonderful horse that turned out to be a champion, and with him we made Texas history.

#143, Free Speech Ect. The only hope on the horizon for the big "State U"s is that most states are broke and that as faculty members in sciences and other diciplines retire, they won't be replaced with Ethnic and Diversity studies profs, former basketball players who are now Vice Presidents for Diversity, (or Student Affairs) The Univs are bitching that they are loosing positions and the solution is to staff up the teaching faculty with adjuncts (who do most of the work these days anyways), not tenure line positions. The Adjuncts are not allowed to participate in Univ governance decisions are are usually not in the unions despite carrying a large part of the teaching load at most urban univs. You can get a pretty good liberal education these days with a library card, areading list and a mouse. The tech stuff is best taught in house byTrade Schools, companys, and the US Military has the best training in the world. Taking out loans to go to school and listen to "great thinkers" is going to go the way of the horse a buggy far more quickly than is generally thought as new means of communication supplant traditional institutions in a "Multi Cultural World" where the ability to speak english is more important than a degree, for social mobility purposes.

#134 hershel - there's more. I had a mentor in high school whose husband was a prof of philosophy, originally from the Netherlands. In great part, it was her influence that led me to that field. They knew many of the European "greats", Sartre and Simon de Beuavoir among them. I was struggling with one of Sartre's turgid treatises (Thee and Thou? maybe) and, D, as I'll call her got fed up with me.

(Yelling)

"Look, would this be so important if you met him? If you got to know him? You want to know him? He's an asshole. And so is she. They've got the moral sense of minks."

She went on for about 10 minutes. Then she said,
"Now start this goddamn thing over from the beginning with at least a glimmer of skepticism. Your submissive adoration disgusts me".

I had some very good teachers.

#152
AG

This is what I was refering to about the British.

The story of the British government's war campaign in America is told in great detail in Thomas E. Mahl's recent book, Desperate Deception: British Covert Operations in the United States, 1939-44. Shortly after the beginning of the war in September 1939, the British set up the British Security Coordination service (BSC), with headquarters in New York City. Its director for most of the war was William Stephenson, whose code name was "Intrepid." The methods and tactics used included the following:

Desperate Deception: British Covert Operations in the United States

I don't know if this is true. But if it is true, I don't blame them for doing it. But for me this leads to a paradox, because I cannot also claim it to be morally proper. FWIW

--check out the article about the saudi's, it's more pertinent, and funny.

grayp wrote:

Neumann and his ilk never wanted truth, justice, compassion or fairness. They are motivated by vanity and sheltered by an environment that feeds their need to be thought of as uber-brains.

Hit it on the head, sir. I think the ultimate sin among many academics and artists is common sense - because it, is after all, common, and these are people who place a great premium on being uncommon and above the masses.

Now, certainly, there is value in original thinking. The problem is that what is taken for "original thought" these days by the arts and academic crowd is A. Not much different from what dozens of other artists and academics are thinking, and B. intellectual and moral perversion caused by vanity and snobbery. If Joe and Jane Sixpack think that Bush is OK, that America is a great country, it's a wonderful thing that Saddam got dragged out of a rat hole, and that suicide bombers who target children are scum, well, it wouldn't do to be on the same side as Joe and Jane Sixpack, would it? So they have to concoct reasons for denying what is plain to most people. Luckily for most academics, they don't have to reinvent the wheel - all they have to do is reach into the Chomsky-Foucault-Derrida-Marxist bag of cliches and rearrange the words a little bit or come up with a few catchphrases of their own. It's a bit like dragging the old artifical Christmas tree out of the attic - you can buy new lights or or hang tinsel instead of garland, but underneath it's the same old tree.

odd: Not only have I not worked for a Jewish organization, but I'm not Jewish. I don't think you can accuse me of looking for Nazis under the bed. However, I noticed a very definite upswing in anti-Jewish feeling even before I discovered LGF. It became very apparent to me after 9/11, just from watching the news and reading the papers. Now if I, who normally would be rather less attuned to Judenhass than a Jewish person, have noticed a rise in anti-Semitism, don't you think my goyishe word is worth anything?

IMHO, a Jewish person who doesn't think there has been a nasty increase in anti-Semitism is either terribly sheltered, or, to be blunt about it, dumber than a stick of gum.

PDM: Sorry to hear that about your shul. Bastards.

OT:

Why do I repeatedly post critiques of the "Abrahamite" mentality of GWB, when nobody pays the slightest interest in same? Because it would be worth it if even one of the 25,000 post viewers here today, finally understood the fallacious "faith-based" reasoning of the leader of the Free World

ADVENTURES IN LIBERAL RELIGION [Rod Dreher]

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

The Rt. Rev. John Bryson Chane, the Episcopal Bishop of the nation's capital and Dean of National Cathedral, delivered a real lulu of a Christmas sermon this year. Excerpt:

And what was God thinking... when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the Law to Moses? And what was God thinking... when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the sacred Quran to the prophet Muhammad? And what was God thinking... when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the birth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

It will come as news to many Christians that an Anglican bishop believes that the Islamic revelation was true, not false, as Christianity teaches implicitly. Nevertheless, a Michigan lawyer friend suggests that Bp. Chane has opened up a new and exciting area for exploring ecumenism/syncretism. Now, the Episcopalians of Washington can have a gay wedding in the church, and push a wall over on the two grooms at the reception.

#162 Donna:

"Hit it on the head, sir".

Er, 'm'aam" would do the trick.

LOL!

Is this the same guy? "Democracies can be worse than autocracies. To be poor in democratic Mexico or Brazil is certainly worse than to be unrepresented in Cuba or Saudi Arabia. We should know better than to put much stock in the form of government. That it is necessary even to say this shows how tightly we are in the grip of a clichéd ideology." Quote in Wash Post

Charles

How many b[s] do we have posting?

#165 bigel

Tho' it's not my opinion you asked, you get it anyway. Leftists find the real world too difficult - it doesn't validate them - academia is a refuge - and now a ghetto. The end result is that indeed, the inmates are running the asylum, but I don't think it started out like that.

grayp: Oh, dear, I've just revealed my blatant, albeit unconcious sexism, haven't I? I shall now hit myself 100 times over the head with my copy of The Second Sex while I wait for the PC police to come cart me away:-)

#162, Donna V.

As a former academic, I agree with your portrayal. Have you wondered, 'though, if it ever was different in academia, and when and why things changed?

#163 Camel Prophet

The Rt. Rev. John Bryson Chane, the Episcopal Bishop of the nation's capital and Dean of National Cathedral, will make a wonderful dhimmi, doncha think?

I have to say, that post of yours has outraged me more than I would have thought possible.

How is it possible that the Rt. Rev. John Bryson Chane, the Episcopal Bishop of the nation's capital and Dean of National Cathedral, is completely ignorant of Christian theology, completely ignorant of islamic "theology", and yet presumes to babble about both? And why is no one else calling him on his profound ignorance?

I wonder if the Rt. Rev. John Bryson Chane, the Episcopal Bishop of the nation's capital and Dean of National Cathedral, would be very surprised to learn that Jesus was just a prophet according to islam?

Why did the Rt. Rev. John Bryson Chane, the Episcopal Bishop of the nation's capital and Dean of National Cathedral, not mention Gabriel in the Old Testament?

@163 Camel Prophet

GAK! You saw that too? I looked at my husband, and asked him if he had just heard what I heard.
That is not christianity, that's politicizing and using the pulpit to do it.
He needed for someone to quietly walkup to him and bitchslap him in front of the whole congregation for his
blasphemy.

#169 Donna: "THE SECOND SEX"??!! NOOO!!

See my post #169. "D" told me years later that Simone had been used by Sartre and when he married someone else, how utterly crushed she was. It had been a fraud the whole time. The muse of the existentials ended up a fool for fame.

This is too funny.

Donna, correction, my post 160

#146 zulubaby

Wish I could give you more than a virtual hug-- please know that you have many friends here.

I've been to Israel on a religious (Christian) pilgrimage. I hope that I can go again some day-- it was a tremendous spiritual experience. I have no difficulty understanding your feelings about Israel-- it is truly a land like no other.

PDM-- I'm sorry too about your synagogue. These incidents are worse than sickening.

#163 Camel Prophet - You're right. From what I've read, Islam not only condradicts Christianity, it also contradicts Judaism (Islam: Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael...). I don't know if people are just ignorant, and see the name "Abraham" mentioned in all three, and read no further, or they're on some kind of propaganda trip.

Wait a minute he did say:

"And what was God thinking... when the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the Law to Moses?"

I might be wrong, but wasn't the law revealed to Moses by G-d Himself (Exodus 20)?

Isn't the first of only two mentions of Gabriel in the Old Testament Daniel 8:16, and the second Daniel 9:21, neither of which has to do with the revelation of the law?

What is the Rt. Rev. John Bryson Chane, the Episcopal Bishop of the nation's capital and Dean of National Cathedral, talking about here?

So, yeah, he did mention Gabriel in the OT, but not in a context I understand.

Can anybody help me out here?

#165 - oh yes I do think that. and also, we evil-right wingers tend towards other professions anyway.
We like to get on with life after college.
Unlike so many of the leftwing college elites/Ideologues who seldom leave the comfort zone of the classroom. They never venture out into the real world to make it on their own.

#165, bigel

Bingo--but half the time it as much to do not with with left/liberal or right/conservative but with allegiance to the latest "school of criticism" fashionable in English and foreign literature departments.
Then, of course, there's "colleagueship," which is a grab-bag excuse not to hire or renew.

"has as much to do..."

OT - I just read Jonah Goldberg's entry over at NRO's Le Corner - he posted a doozie of a moonbat e-mail he received.

yowza.

observer: I have no claim to be an expert on the matter, but it seems to me the sea change came about in the '60's, at least here in the States. There were plenty of leftists in academia before that, but they were also people who still believed in Western Civilization and didn't try to force their political beliefs down their student's throats.(I'm thinking of people like Lionel Trilling.) Now that the radicals of the '60's have stayed on campus and gained tenure, they have shown that "The Free Speech Movement" only pertains to their kind of speech.

The arts are a bit different. Hilton Kramer once wrote that it will take a long time for Marxism to lose it's allure among certain artists and writers, because it taps into a very old European tradition - hatred of the middle classes. (Even though the overwelming majority of artists hail from the middle class themselves, they've always identified with either their aristocratic patrons or with the working classes.)

Antisemitism: Here in Pittsburgh, we had a cold-blooded murder of a young Orthodox man in 1986 (in Sq Hill- main Jewish neighborhood). The young student was stopped by people in a car, who asked for directions. They shot him, but he was able to give a description to police.

Recently, the murderer was tried & convicted (I think- my mind is not completely clear - seizure meds...). The killer was a White Supremacist who bragged about the murder, and was caught because of his big mouth & the victim's description.

#182 - Donna V.

I think you are onto something.

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

#53 PDM - I am sorry to hear about that.

grayp: LOL! Yes, that's exactly why I said The Second Sex (which I do believe I still have, in a box in storage, along with a lot of other college tomes I once took seriously. Anyone else have Soul on Ice -Black Power radicalism - stashed away somewhere?)

Yeah, old Jean-Paul and Simone - as lovely a pair as that other gruesome Marxist couple - Dashiell Hammet and Lillian ("every word she writes is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'") Hellman.

An addendum to my last post: American intellectuals have always been hampered by the fact that the white "working classes" in this country let them down by doing bad stuff like voting for Reagan and flag waving. So here, they've pinned their hopes on minority groups (not the Jews or the Asians - they're too successful) and on the Third World "oppressed", like the poor widdle Palis.

#183 Blady

Yes, the killer of Neal Rosenblum received a sentence of 10-20 years for the murder (after three trials with hung juries). In addition, another Pittsburgh white supremecist murdered his Jewish neighbor and four other members of minority groups. He was sentenced to death.

@181 Free Speech et al

Do you have a link?

#152 Ayatollah

...including the 10 million Russians who fell destroying the monster.

Try 20 million. They lost 1 million alone in Stalingrad.

#159 - funny you mention going broke. The Univs in my state are going broke. I guess that is a good thing then, eh?

quark2 -

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Scroll down a teency bit to: "TINFOIL HELMET CROWD"

@189 Buckeye Abroad

I thought it was around 25 million they lost.

#162 Donna V., #175 Connecticut Yankee, #185 Baldy,

It's a disgusting thing to see happen to any synagogue or religious institution.
But what the bastards didn't realize that they did me a personal favor. I wasn't having... uh... my most spiritual holiday. I certainly didn't walk into my shul with much Jewish passion that day.
But when I saw the damaged menorah and the flyers filled with hate for Israel and Jews that they spread all over the property, it had a strange effect on me. I'm not sure I can really explain it. Just seeing that the little synagogue took a hit for no other reason except that Jews worship there made me realize that I had to find that passion again and hold on tight.

So to the anti-Semitic, Nazi-loving scum, I can honestly say: Thank you, you just saved a Jew.

A person who would say such things should never be allowed to write for any credible publication;

Charles...you said "credible" publication.
The LA Times is credible?

@191 Free Speech...

Thanx. :)

LOL! I just posted that and saw this:

Users Online: 613

:)

#192, #189

Perhaps we have someone posting who was actually there? Anyone?

You'd only have to be around 85.

#187 Morgan - Thank you. I remember that day in 1986. I was in the neighborhood when Mr. Rosenblum was murdered. I tried to remember if I had seen anything that could help the case, but I did not. Oh. It was a sickening crime. Neal Rosenblum was from Australia, if I remember correctly. He was so young.

@197 b

Dang! Don't you ever stop? You think people just stop existing after some magical age?
Why don't you watch the NBC early morning show sometime, they have a segment where Smuckers congratulates people who are celebrating 100 years or more. Or do you think that's all lies too?

#192 quark2

Depends on who you read and who you believe, but the best estimate I had was 20 as it has been repeated in the volumes I read.

I have been living in Germany for sometime and spoke with a couple of the old survivors of the Wehrmacht over the years... most of them campaigners from the Eastern front. Spare you the details, but they est. the number to be 20 million as well.

(Disclaimer: I do not seek out these individuals, but when I identify myself as an American, who served in the Army, it does come out in conversation).

the Angel Gabriel was sent by God to reveal the sacred Quran to the prophet Muhammad?

It was Azazel, actually. The demon of the barren desert.

#182, Donna V.

True, but is it only the political element, the radicalization of the faculty and curricula in the late Sixties into the Seventies, that brought about a sea change? What pieces of the culture outside the campus walls began to penetrate the Ivy Tower, converting it into an industrial park?
I do not underestimate what the (now) ageing lefties did. But even they, or especially they, lead totally bourgeois lives--their performances in class to the contrary do not fool the bright students. But maybe we should not underestimate the deadening contribution made by the technicians, specialists, ladder-climbing, boot-licking professionals--the middle managers of academia--who reduced learning to training and knowledge to information.
But the students, too, bring to bear the worst elements of popular culture, once scorned by an elitism now so despised. Why else would an elite university reproduce its own version of "The American Idol?"
Universities were not intended to be "democratic." They WERE meant to provide an education FOR democracy, but the means respected centuries of a splendid (if not necessarily fair) hierarchy. Gone with an ill wind.
As someone wrote, we have to learn to live in the ruins of the university.

Free Speech is Only for Uber-Libs:

That Brooks article is terrific. David Brooks is starting to approach the exalted realms of VDH and Mark Steyn in my estimation.

Because the striking thing is that, for all their contempt, the bourgeoisophobes cannot ignore us. They can't just dismiss us with a wave and get on with their lives. The entire Arab world, and much of the rest of the world, is obsessed with Israel. Many people in many lands define themselves in opposition to the United States. This is because deep down they know that we possess a vitality that is impressive. The Europeans regard us as simplistic cowboys, and in a backhanded way they are acknowledging the pioneering spirit that motivates America--the heroic spirit that they, in the comfort of their welfare states, lack. The Islamic extremists regard us as lascivious hedonists, and in a backhanded way they are acknowledging both our freedom and our happiness.

Beautifully put.

Like Sergio..Im flat out stunned. Im just sitting here..hardly focusing and all that comes to mind is : What the HELL do they want from us already? Its down to that in the 21St Century. So much for EDUCATION handling Antisemetism.

He lies..its fine..HE decides the definition of Antisememtism (see why I loose it when others try to do that little thing) and there is little outcry and HIS ideas move closer and closer to the MAINSTREAM.

You will see parts of this in the Mainstream more and more...

I got nothin else to say tonight about this..I cant really.

Cept..My old Mantra: More things change...more they stay the same...

This is where I get all my news from:

[Link: www.thestar.com...]

Haroon is very dependable and I use Depends.

Free Speech, Quark, the asshat gave Jonah permission to run his email address as well ( azapw@cox.net ). Just a sample of his wit and wisdom.

Who profited from September 11th? A tanking, unelected pResident with a popularity rating in the 40 percentile range. Now all of a sudden he's sprouted chest hairs and balls and is portrayed (by the lap-dog, reich-wing, compliant bitch media) as a super stud, here to save us from "evil doers." Admit it. The man is a moron. He doesn't even read a newspaper; he spends hours playing video games and jogging (well, it's a step above RayGun who just slept for eight years and then forgot it); and amuses himself riding a Kaybee Toys® rocking horse at the Crawford "ranch" (another staged photo op prop designed to bolster
his less than manly persona). I will give RayGun credit where it's due: at least he rode a horse. King George cowers in fear at the very sight of them.

The true "terrierists" are King George, Dickey Cheney, Condom Rice (named after a Chevron oil tanker), Colon "Oreo®" Powell and the rest of the seditious, treasonous lot of the Washington City junta. When they are all dangling from long ropes stretched from a tall tree, then Amerika can return to a positive, forward looking future.

Until then, it's more doom and gloom from the masters of corruption and deceit.

Sincerely,

Dr. Sal A Mander
Editor & Publisher
(I am also in Herr Kaiser AssCrack's master file of people to watch)

Where do these people get their doctorates?

Yes. When I left my job at the Jewish center and joined the Islamic Outreach Center they told me to read Haroon Siddiqui because he could rationalize Islamic terrorism and anti-semitism like no other. He also could turn on his dimplish charms so he could spew his own unique brand of anti-semitism.

Oh, my heart quivers with the Haroon. He's like the Canadian Fisk with a touch of Joseph Sobran.

@200 Buckeye Abroad

I imagine you've heard some very interesting memories then.

its quite amazing how some people here are able to respond to the author of this article in a clam and coherent manner. I only be capable of writing something like "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE DIE,DIE ,DIE!!!"

207

Excellent nick, suits you perfectly.

@286 Ed Moran

I read that too. This guy needs a thorough fisking like an impacted colicked horse.

As to his 'degrees', he apparently bought them at Le Target.

#203 Donna V.

I agree about David Brooks. When you mentioned
the "hatred of the middle classes" tradition, it rang a bell. Glad you enjoyed it as much as I did.

209   alexbmn - LOL! That's what I've been saying to the screen.

#206 ...Lesbian Seaguls

Unreal, ain't it?!?!

I must give this asshat credit - "reich-wing" - that's kind of funny. But then, I'm a little sick.

When I left my job at the Jewish center ...

Oh good! I get to be Queen of Sheba again.

211

Considering he calls himself a newt, the honorific could also be a figment of his imagination. Although I really could imagine some tired '60s radical with one too many bad experiences with mescaline and Ajax going down to the Alamada County Courthouse and legally changing his name to Sal A Mander.

Rayra..
(sidenote)
Just to let you know- I received your e-mail regarding the Iraqi Successes. Thanks :-)

Only if you wear a face covering. That's why I left the Jewish center. They made me wear a face covering. At the Islamic Center they let me take the face covering off because they weren't sure whether I was male or female. And since I pee sitting down, they can't really tell.

Re 198 Baldy. Whereabouts in Pittsburgh do you live? I'm from Pgh also.

What was also sad about the young rabbinical student was the fact that it took so many trials to convict his killer.

Someone didn't swallow their meds tonight...

Off to bed.

Can't wait to see where this thread goes overnight.

Note what the university president is quoted as saying:

"the statements attributed to Mr. Neumann... were nonetheless perceived by some as being offensive and unacceptable."

She couldn't even bring herself to say that the statements *were* offensive and unacceptable, only that some *perceived* them that way.

As bad as many faculty members are, most university administrators are much worse.

Free Speech... (#182)

Thanks for calling that David Brooks piece to my attention again...I had forgotten that, though I read it when it came out.

Brooks's humanity and luminous intelligence is an inspiration, and he never takes himself too seriously...

And to Donna V.:

Thanks for coming to my defense in that earlier thread. That "Voice of the Lurker" has a serious problem...

Jamie Irons

RE: my post # 215.
Okay - it's not funny. AS it diminishes the horror and tramples on the memory of those who really suffered under third Reich. I get really sick and tired of the moronic Bush is Hitler comparisons. Such comparison are a slap in the face to each and every Jew who
Suffered.

So really - it's not funny at all.

/end rant/

I like the Chabadnicks. They like to give Chanukah a big playful boost. Few nights back I was driving my father and we saw the Chabad automobiles with big ol' menorahs on them. So we drove behind them to a few places. At each place they get out, light the huge menorah, dance around, run into the Jewish eatery and dance around and talk up Chanukah thereby elevating Jewish spirit and Judaism.

Whoops..

Should have been:

"Brooks's humanity and luminous intelligence are an inspiration..."

Subject/verb agreement uber alles...

Jamie Irons

Jamie Irons,

No problem. :-)

@222 Ed Moran: et al,

probably right over the edge of a sheer cliff...

So this chap will use "lies, injustice and obfuscation" to make his case for the "Palestinians" and against Israel.

Well, of course he will. There is no way to make the case without such tactics.

There really is not much to add to the always brilliant and thoughtful posts here at LGF. I will say, though, as long as the fact-checking minions press on, there is hope.

#17 Ed Moran

Abou the Al Q attacks: Some of the attackers in 1993 were recently (mid-2003) interviewed by 60 minutes and they said their goal then was to kill Jews because they believed many Jews worked in the WTC. For all I know that was the goal then and it may have been the goal in 2001, as well.

zulubaby/Leah

Here's another article on Libya's 'sheepish' leader.
It will raise the hair on the back of your neck.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

PDM: well, your recommitment to Judiasm because of that creepy Jew-hater (or haters) is not the only good thing to come out of that attack on your shul. I've just thrown an additional $4.20 in my Adom Magen David kitty.

I vowed last week to start tossing my spare change into a dish every time a Jew hatin' troll turned up at LGF. The AP troll was good for $2.75. Thus far, I have about $10. When it gets up to $50, it's going to Adom David Magen.

So, thank you, Jew haters, for inspiring contributions to an Israeli charity.

#220 Old Guy 12/28/2003 07:52PM PST

heh Pa has lots of anti idotarians i'm a few hours eastish from blitzburgh

More details of the exchange between Neumann & JTR can be found in this article by Jonathan Kay, Editorials Editor of the National Post:

[Link: www.omnivore.org...]

---

... This summer, it came out that Prof. Neumann had recently engaged in a revealing e-mail debate about Israel and Judaism with the "webmaster" of an Internet site called Jewish Tribal Review (JTR).

In the exchange -- which JTR subsequently published -- the webmaster pushes Mr. Neumann to expand his critique of Israel to include "Jewish/Zionist hegemony" in America's "media/government" machine. To his credit, Prof. Neumann declines. But his response, as reported by JTR, contains this admission: "My sole concern is indeed to help the Palestinians, and I try to play for keeps. I am not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding, or anything else, except so far as it serves that purpose. This means, among other things, that if talking about Jewish power doesn't fit my strategy, I won't talk about it."

This statement can be read narrowly or broadly. So the JTR webmaster asks him for clarification: "Am I reading this right? ... You say you are 'not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding ... except so far as it serves that purpose.' Is this the foundation of your teachings as a philosopher?"

In his response, Prof. Neumann reportedly writes: "If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious, racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care."

(Prof. Neumann admits he spoke "carelessly" during his exchange with JTR, which he regarded as confidential; and insists "I do not lie or obfuscate in anything I write, because that would hurt the Palestinians." Regarding the above-cited statements, he told me he would "neither confirm nor deny having made" them.)

quark2 (#233)

Absolutely chilling.

It is good that Khaddafi has chosen "of his own free will" to dismantle his weapons of mass destruction. Hopefully he will be a role model for other dictators to do the same — and to avoid the fate of Saddam. But we should also keep in mind that Khaddafi will never become an angel.

It's more than that though. I understand that there have been talks going on for months and his agreeing to dismantle his WMD isn't as sudden as it seems, but I still don't trust any of it. Saddam was found in a spider hole after Khaddafi (yet another spelling!) was apparently being talked down from the ledge so how can Saddam's capture be attributed to Khaddafi changing his mind? Things are just not adding up. And why would someone who has lied his whole life suddenly start telling the truth?

#220 Old Guy - Sq Hill

#234 Donna V.,

You're a very special lady. Thank you.
I really admire the way you take something bad (like trolls and anti-Semites) and turn it into something good. We can all take a lesson from you.

So, thank you, Jew haters, for inspiring contributions to an Israeli charity.

Amen.

@233 zulubaby

In reading that second article I noticed a pattern to his behaviour. If he's true to course, Libya should be complicit in terrorism against America somewhere soon.
Everytime he was confronted he would resort to more violence.

Nothing matters to Neumann more than the Palestinians, a people among whom he does not live, who share none of his concerns in political or moral philosopy, and who would kill him in the blink of an eye.

Nothing he hates more than the Jews, a people amog whom he grew up, who worry relentlessly about the moral implications of human actions, and who will defend his right to curse their very existence.

typo: among

#233 quark2

Thanks for the article. You're right--it sent a chill up my spine.

Zulubaby is correct, also. Leopards don't change their spots. Liars lie. I don't trust Khadaffi or any middle east "leader."

We can NEVER let our guard down.

PDM: Thanks for your kind words. They mean a lot to me.

My only fear is that we'll have an influx of moronic trolls and I'll run out of change. I've already gone through 3 old purses and dug around under the sofa cushions (a goldmine there:-)

quark2 (#240)

You're so right, he's in the process of presenting the world with the "new, new, new" Khaddafi. My senses are crawling from this, like something is going to happen and after it has we are going to look at each other in amazement that we didn't see what was staring us right in the face all along.

@245 zulubaby

I wish you hadn't said that, because that is exactly how I am feeling too.

I haven't read the article yet... wonder if James Baker has something to do with all these new developments.

Zulu
___

I don't agree. Khaddafi is finished with terror, at least for a while. He's older, has grown on the job (lol) and sick of Muslim terrorism which has recently been targeting him. Anyhow he is probably ridiculed by the Jihadis for his gay getups and costumes. The guy was decked out in a purple robe last year!!!

#244 Donna V.,

My only fear is that we'll have an influx of moronic trolls and I'll run out of change.

If you run out of change I'd be honored if you let me drop some coins in that pushka (charity box). And, I might do so even if you don't run out of change. With a bit of teamwork we may not be able to buy a new ambulance, but we might be able to put a set of tires on one.

Here's the bastard in cockburn's "counterpunch, dated June 4. He's clearly both an anti-Semite and a narcissist:

Every once in a while, some left-wing Jewish writer will take a deep breath, open up his (or her) great big heart, and tell us that criticism of Israel or Zionism is not antisemitism. Silently they congratulate themselves on their courage. With a little sigh, they suppress any twinge of concern that maybe the goyim--let alone the Arabs--can't be trusted with this dangerous knowledge.

Sometimes it is gentile hangers-on, whose ethos if not their identity aspires to Jewishness, who take on this task. Not to be utterly risqué, they then hasten to remind us that antisemitism is nevertheless to be taken very seriously. That Israel, backed by a pronounced majority of Jews, happens to be waging a race war against the Palestinians is all the more reason we should be on our guard. Who knows? it might possibly stir up some resentment!

I take a different view. I think we should almost never take antisemitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it. I think it is particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict, except perhaps as a diversion from the real issues. I will argue for the truth of these claims; I also defend their propriety. I don't think making them is on a par with pulling the wings off flies...

And there's a lot more:

I, for example, grew up in Jewish culture and, like many people growing up in a culture, I have come to dislike it.

So when do we start picketing the Times, Charles?

I was raised to think that good little Jewish boys never stick up for themselves. I learned to disagree, but I can't do it alone.

Anyone care to join me?

mardukhai1@hotmail.com

dennisw - he does look like a really matronly drag queen for sure... all that was missing were some pearls.

As for disliking one's culture... why not just convert to Buddism like so many others do? This ... I hate my culture so I must destroy everything about it... is just plain old weird, beside narcisistic and infantile.

#62

The only "arab" unit that i know of that fought the nazis was actually a Transjordanian police unit that under the command of a British officer (John Bagot Glubb) who were ordered into Iraq to chase out the Mufti after a coup attempt.

I visited a site Prof. Neuman recommended, by one "Israel Shamir," a an anti-Semitic idiot if there ever was one.

It opens with the following quote:

We watched Pink Floyd's The Wall in a small, bare and shabby cinema called Semadar, The Vine Blossom in the quaint German Colony of Jerusalem. Emptied of ethnic Germans by the Jews in 1948, it still preserves its old stone houses roofed with red tiles, gables with immured plaques quoting Psalms inscribed in Gothic script, ivy creeping up its masonry and the mysterious Templars' Cemetery beyond heavy gate.

Just problem -- it was the British who emptied the German Colony -- during the Second World War, because the Templers (NOT "Templars, those were the Crusaders) were major league nazi collaborators.

And there is absolutely nothing mysterious about thye Templers' cemetary. It is merely abandoned.

Typical Chomskyite-Saidite research.

Join me for a picket of the Times?

mardukhai1@hotmail.com

Doesn't Kadaffyduck have grrl bodyguards now?

#250 Mardukhai

Protesting won't help change editorial policy. Canceling subscriptions and writing to advertisers might.

#253

Shamir is a neo-nazi and his writings are a staple of antisemitic websites. Unlike Chomsky or Neumann he doesn't even pretend to be Jewish when he attacks Israel and Jews.

Mardukhai-Glubb pasha! It was only when he was around that the Jordanian military was worth a shit.

Here's the LA Times' steaming dropping of Jewhatred of the day. A wonderfully literate letter to the editor, no doubt selected for publication because of its calm, rational and level-headed prose.

"Tragically for all, even our news and opinion coverage of the conflict in the Middle East is far too "pro-Israel" to do anyone much good. It is utterly foolish to keep ignoring and/or excusing Israel's racist refusal to fully respect U.N. Resolution 194 from 1948, the Palestinian refugees' inalienable right of return to live in peace. It is not evenhanded to forget to mention the fact that Israel's occupation has been horrifically cruel and absolutely illegal according to international law — and is 36 years old.

Leaning heavily on Israeli propaganda to translate the situation for us, we only end up arming and empowering Israel's many crimes against humanity and the slow but sure ethnic cleansing of the Holy Land. Israel's aggressive Jewish-only settlement policies, combined with its extensive state-sponsored terrorism against the Palestinians, combined with its many blatantly racist laws and walls, have inspired a great deal of poverty, despair and, yes, even unmitigated rage. The impoverished and persecuted Palestinians have already learned not to trust racist Israel. We should too.

Anne Selden Annab

Mechanicsburg, Pa."

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

#255 Morgan

Israel Shamir was a real person, a Jew and a Holocaust survivor. He is RiP now.

He survived Holocaust, but he for ever remained in the shtetl he grew up in, and took it with him when he went to Israel. He generalised his experience as a child to all of Israel, and all of Jews, and these were and are used by the antisemits of all shades and colors.

I always thought that throwing dirt at the loved ones he lost was his way of surviving the lost. Sad, but not that strange if you think of it.

BTW, he is also refered to as Professor Israel Shamir by those who give more weight to his "thoughts". He was professor, but his area of expertise was chemistry not history, politics, or such..

Morgan (#257)

Anne Selden Annab has all but made it her profession to write vile letters to the press. See here: NYT Publishes Letter from a Hater

She's a raving, ranting, nasty anti-Semite.

I ran into Neumann and CounterPunch when researching moral equivalence and I kept the link since it is such a gem of mind boggling lunacy.

#258 norar

You are mistaken. You are thinking of Israel Shahak, another deranged hater who died a few years ago. Israel Shamir is a Russian-born Christian and is unfortunately still with us.

#259 zulubaby

She is vile and newspapers love to publish her rantings. What if the readers of LGF tried to send a few letters to the editor of different papers each day - we certainly put in enough effort expressing our ideas here. Why not share them with the folks who read newspapers? See my posting above at #65 for more on possible letters to the LATimes about the Neumann piece.

#255 Morgan

No, canceling subscriptions and contacting advertisers has never worked. Never. It has been tried many times, and trust me, i'm a veteran at this.

And I know these people intimately -- my father was a Times reporter.

After many years of fighting the monopoly press, I personally think that LA'a Jews and suipporters of Israel are, sorry to say, nothing but bloody cowards.

Mardukhai (#262)

I personally think that LA'a Jews and suipporters of Israel are, sorry to say, nothing but bloody cowards.

Based on what exactly? What is it that we do, or don't do, that makes you think so little of us?

Morgan (#261)

The voice that they love, the voice that gets heard, is the voice of the likes of Anne Selden Annab, because that is the voice that they agree with, but we have to keep fighting it.

Your post #65 was great, keep it going.

The reason the western press harp on Israeli transgressions, real or imagined, yet ignore Arab and Muslim barbarism is really quite simple:

1. If they slander Israel, the worst that can happen is they get expelled from the country.

2. If they truthfully report on Arab and Muslim barbarism and bigotry against Jews, Christians, and other "outs", they're likely to have to answer to Saddam Hussein's cheerleaders, or their family and/or friends may have to. Something tells me, going through a shredder feet first, or similarly into an acid bath, or being pulled apart by jeeps, etc., just isn't the greatest way to spend an afternoon. And because the Islamofascists' barbarism is so well known, they don't even have to deliver their threats personally, a word to the wise and all that.

#262 Mardukhai,

LA'a Jews and suipporters of Israel are, sorry to say, nothing but bloody cowards.

I'm one LA Jew who would love to hear the reasoning behind that one.
It's BS. A lot of us do everything we can for Israel and supporters of Israel. We even travel there, which simply in itself takes guts. And when we can't, we put our money where our mouth is.

#261 Morgan

You are right I am wrong. I did mixed up the two, probably because their writings apare at the same type of disrespectable publications. Sorry.

OT

The intellectual classes love to talk about the power of pro-Israel neo-conservatives in America. What they don't discuss is the influence of pro-Arab business, education and government leaders. I recently stumbled across the site for the "Middle East Policy Council", a group that publishes a respected journal called "Middle East Policy". The journal is a veritable love letter to the Arab world, full of articles deriding Israel and celebrating Arabs and Islam. What disturbed me was seeing the names of those who run and advise the MEPC. The board of directors includes numerous CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, retired high-level state department officials and former Senator and presidential candidate George McGovern. Also on the board is Frank Carlucci, Chairman of the Carlyle Group and a former U.S. Secretary of Defense. There is also a very strange combination of names and titles: Najeeb Halaby, former head of the Federal Aviation Administration and Dr. Fuad A. Rihani, a director of the Saudi Binladin Group.

[Link: www.mepc.org...]

Pretty weird. Imagine if a pro-Israel group would have on its board the chairman of the Carlyle Group (which is associated with former president Bush), a former head of the FAA and a member of the Binladin business empire. We'd never hear the end of it.

The advisors to the MEPC are also a motley bunch of academic Arabists and businessmen with financial interests in the Arab world. They include conspiracy theorist Gary Sick (remember October Surprise), Prof. John Esposito of Georgetown and Prof. Richard Falk of Princeton, who is a leader in the anti-Israel divestment movement.

[Link: www.mepc.org...]

What kind of articles does the MEP journal publish? Without going into too much detail, the MEPC homepage provides a link to the numerous published articles by the late Israel Shahak. Mr. Shahak is best known for his book "Jewish History, Jewish Religion". The book includes such nuggets as "both before and after a meal, a pious Jew ritually washes his hands...On one of these two occasions he is worshiping God... but on the other he is worshiping Satan..." and "Orthodox Jews ... frequently kill those whose views they do not like." Mr. Shahak also claims that Jewish children are taught to curse each time they pass a cemetery where non-Jews are buried.

[Link: www.wernercohn.com...]

A search on Google for Shahak and the book's title brings up every major neo-nazi and Holocaust denial website. The fact that Shahak is the MEPC's best loved author should tell you someting about the kind of antisemitic evil being peddled in America by the powerful and influential. So the next time someone tries to lecture you about Jewish power in America, send them to the MEPC's site and ask them what they think.

[Link: www.mepc.org...]

Why would a Jew, of all people, espouse such an absurd viewpoint? I fail to understand why a Jewish person would encourage anti-Semitic policies to help the Palestinians when such policies would be decidedly against his own self-interest. Talk about self-hate...

#269 Bill - because demonstrating the capacity to embrace "the other" is indicative of great moral wisdom.

No kidding. Try to matriculate at any University today. You get to go thru 'diversity orientation'. Embracing black, transgender, autistic, blah, blah, blah, pick your oppression, - and admiting that YOU are the oppressor - makes you sooo special.

Ugh. I need more coffee.

Morgan,

Wasn't Shahak a Holocaust survivor? That sort of status, in the moonbats' warped little minds, lends credence to his insane scribblings. Over the past while, I've come to accept the fact that if a Jew publishes anti-Israel propaganda, it'll just be gobbled up by the anti-Israel crowd (who will sing the author's praises, calling him/her a "brave/courageous Jew", and stressing the fact that he/she is Jewish in reviews because hey, "here's a Jew who knows what other Jews don't want us to know - see, we're no anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist"). And if the Jew in question is a Holocaust survivor - that's the icing on the proverbial cake.

Apparently, Shahak has written a book about "Jewish fundamentalism" which is popular with the settler-bashing crowd.

He's like Finkelstein - I mean, he is the son of Shoa survivors; if he compares Zionism to Nazism and the IDF with the Gestapo, well it has to be true!

/lunacy

#270, grap

You got the campus atmosphere, but Neumann is a squirmy piece of work. He "embraces" the "other," in this case the Palestinians in THEORY, but would like to see Israel wiped out in REALITY.
Neumann and his ilk have no intellectual, social, or personal ties to the Palis. They wouldn't want them in their seminars, at their conferences, and under no circumstances in their living rooms. (But who would?) He knows this, but cannot admit it. So he says nothing of any positive or constructive potential among the Palestinians--only that the Israelis are waging a brutal "race war" against them.
The Palis for him are the old "noble savages," beautiful in their rage against the cosmoplitan, Jewized West he despises. In reality, he wouldn't get within rock-throwing distance of them.
But he despises the "real" people he knows--Jews, first, the rest of the West, second. For them real destruction is acceptable.
Neumann embodies a solid chunk of our academic "elite." Nasty little nihilists--but dangerous because of the sway they can have over young minds.

#272 observer

I agree with half your thesis. He despises Jews, the West, etc., because this is the cabal that denies him legitimacy.

Regarding your idea that there really are no intellectual, social, etc., ties to the Palis and their ilk, in one sense you are probably correct. But your spot-on observation that they fill the role of "noble savage" isn't taken far enough. That provides Neumann with the 'hero for the underdog' moral high ground. I'd be willing to bet that if he ever encountered Tariq Ramadan, Neumann's nose would be brown in a hurry and the spare room available 7-by-24

the slow but sure ethnic cleansing of the Holy Land

If only.

“My sole concern is indeed to help the Ku Klux Klan, and I try to play for keeps. I am not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding, or anything else, except so far as it serves that purpose.”
The Web site quotes Neumann as writing, “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Ku Klux Klan. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the n*****s don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Negroism or reasonable hostility to n*****s, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Negroism, or the destruction of the Black Race as a whole, I still don’t care.”

Now PRINT IT, LA Times.

And while you're at it, I'll take my professorship and tenure now, Trent University.

I am disgusted. Surely there is an island for sale that we can all move to in order to escape the insanity?

Bill (#269):

When so many hate you so much for so long, you sometimes become infected by the (self-)hatred as well. Such is the flawed human nature, and Jews are only human, too.

In fact, it's been said -- with some foundation, I think -- that being Jewish is a particularly acute case of being human. Therefore, it's no wonder the extremes of humanity -- both noble and vile -- are so readily found among the Jews.

#273, grayp

The meeting you depict between Neumann and Tariq--nose to cheek--is one many of us would love to watch--with a dose of glee.
Yet, I'm not sure Palis in the flesh is what Neumann, the Ivy-trained and ever sophisticated innerleckshual could bear. The "noble savage" is to be admired, supported, and lied for--as long as he doesn't mess up your library or collection of fine Riesling wines.
But I dunno. Maybe Neumann is a new breed of "humanity lover."

For one thing, there were no doubt quite a few Arab units that fought against the Nazis, too.

Could Prof. Neumann name a few for the unenlightened?

Good catch, Buckeye.

Note that a pro-Israel LGFer could also have written that "there were no doubt some anti-Nazi Arabs." The difference would be that an LGFer would have uttered this in the spirit of a (seemingly) chivalrous concession, as though to say, I'm arguing from such a strong position that I'm going to grant you the hypothetical possibility of anti-Nazi Arabs [and STILL whip your self-hating, fascism-worshipping ass].

Because these "no doubt you are partly correct" constructions are a commonly used and often legitimate rhetorical device, Professor Neumann hopes the careless reader won't notice that what he has done is not to hand a point to his opponent, but rather to smuggle in some totally unsubstantiated support for his own position.

In #250, another quote from Neumann:

I, for example, grew up in Jewish culture and, like many people growing up in a culture, I have come to dislike it.

It's telling that Neumann, who must be pushing 60 now, here uses the present perfect, suggesting that his dislike continues even unto this day.

It's perfectly true that many people -- perhaps most of us -- go through a phase of alienation from our culture of upbringing during the young-adult years. However, many people (but not Neumann) learn to re-embrace their cultural heritage, in whole or in part, with the passage of years.

I know that some ex-Catholic adults, for example, will know what I'm talking about. The sense of alienation from the Church peaks as we attempt to disentangle ourselves from it emotionally and intellectually, but in time, we feel ourselves at a safe enough remove that we can acknowledge Catholicism's positive aspects even if we still feel no inclination to "return to the fold."

Neumann is still doing the Surly Teen thing, though.

Honest Reporting sent out an email about Neumann's piece this morning. They include a quotation from another article Neumann wrote, in which he says

[A]t present, the case for Jewish complicity seems much stronger than the case for German complicity. So if it is not racist, and reasonable, to say that the Germans were complicit in crimes against humanity, then it is not racist, and reasonable, to say the same of the Jews.

Disgusting.

272 observer
___

Most excellent post. I have the same thoughts.