I wonder what CAIR will have to say about this.

Will it be "Throw the book at him!"?

Will it be "Free Randall Todd Royer!"?

Or will it be odd silence?

Surprise guilty plea? Or simply time for him to begin the recruitment of new Jose-Padilla-type jihadis in jail.

Virginia Jihadi Royer Pleads Guilty

In exchange for what?

Shocka!

Interesting. I wonder if they'll let him blog from jail.

Evariste:

I know it's OT, but you said "our people" in the other thread and I was wondering if you could describe your background or point me to a previous post that does.

Thanks,

ibrodsky

ibrodsky-email me!

A Vatican controlled magazine had some harsh words re: Islam about a month ago.

I was wondering if CAIR has ever responded to THAT criticism?

Given CAIR's history of rabidly attacking the mildest criticism of Islam, I am amazed that they have ignored a provocation from such a promenant source.

Idiot that he is , how does Randall Todd Royer get 20 years? Same 20 years as John Walker Lindh who actually picked up weapons against the US military.

Who has suffered bodily harm from Royer?

Right on RCM #2. He will get room and board, medical, dental, vision care, and no end of legal expenses covered off the taxes of US Citizens. All the time preaching hatred of anything/anyone non-mooslem, recruiting (thus enslaving) already half crazed n'er do wells to the destruction of the U.S.of A. If one cannot literally kill ignorant infidels, convert them!
Then they are as good as dead to a sane world and if they become really committed, they will go out and create caranage upon release. Argh - gives me a headache.

Of course, the defense will immediately insist that Ismail be consistently referred to as Randall Todd. After all, who's afraid of a Randall? Or a Todd? Those are yuppie names.

Randall Todd? That's no yuppie name, that's a redneck name. Isn't it?

But how could he plead guilty? He was innocent, and people were willing to give their assurances to that. And AmeriKKKa is just persecuting the Muslims and the brown people with trumped up charges from Mullah Asscroft!
/DeludedsUnderschooled tinfoil hat terror accomplices

#9 dennisw: Lindh should have gotten more. We can agree on that.

This guy is simply going to foment trouble in prison.

Shouldn't these jihadists be segregated somewhere ?

#14 JohninLondon

Shouldn't these jihadists be segregated somewhere ?

I think they should be given their own rooms. A nice subterranean dwelling made of a fine pine.

brodsky - evariste is a small harmless puppy who's very good at math. Oh, and he's Palestinian.

OT: my dad just gave me some info on absentee voting for '04, and it seems that I have to vote in my last state of residence, which was New Hampshire.

Is New Hampshire a swing-state? Just curious.

Colt-Bush only won by 7000 votes (pop 0.5 mil) so yes, do vote!

Excellent. Will do.

I think. This stuff is complicated. I'm going to need a secretary :-)

From his prison cell Sirhan Sirhan said that
If Robert Kennedy was alive today that Kennedy would
forgive and pardon him. Imagine the piss poor luck to kill the one guy on the Planet who would have let you go.

evariste the Chow Chow, according to Steve Miller the bull mastiff you are very good at math. Can you help me. Can you explain Fermats Last Theorem and how to prove it?

Heh heh, sure! Just pull up a chair, and flip over that thousand-year hourglass :-)

evariste the Chow Chow

i found a site that is a book doing a chronological biography of mohammed putting hadiths, koran events etc... in chronological order and commenting the various stories and such can you give me your take on it since you know it better than most here the site is

[Link: prophetofdoom.com...]

#22 evariste the Chow Chow

Oh, so your admitting you really don't know. ;-)

*just kidding, I just googled it and hells bells that would take forever. (but it has been proven, correct?)

But seriously, Simon Singh's book about the Princeton guy that solved it is essential. Not to mention very readable for a general audience. I know a lot of math, but I had to stretch my mind a lot to understand some of the things in there, and some was just beyond my current level of ability to comprehend.

#23 jimmytheclaw

links busted.

Yeah that ain't working jimmytheclaw.

OT

My nephew is home, safe and secure.

justdanny, great news!

Another home-grown jihadist/terrorist in going down.

Damn that Patriot Act!

#28 justdanny

Sorry to ask, but where was he? But regardless, that's good news.

#7 evariste the Chow Chow:
I have "your" thread bookmarked. Shall I send it to you to bookmark, so you have it handy next time someone asks about your background? Cos you know someone will!

evariste the Chow Chow 1/16/2004 03:02PM PST

how about planks constant in laymans terms

hmmm... me thought you were from jordan? Doh i forgot same thing

/sarcasm jab

#31 RWC aka Muttley the Boxer in Wolfs Clothing

Over there.

[Link: www.prophetofdoom.net...]

sorry my bad for trusting my memory

#34 justdanny

Oh, well that brings the status up to great news then !! I'll have to hoist one in his honor tonight.

OT -

A three-legged dog walks
into a saloon in the Old West.
He sidles up to the bar and announces:
"I'm looking for the man who shot my paw."

#25 RWC, it's not that it would take forever to explain how it was solved, it's that the math involved is so esoteric that I can't. It was long thought that the solution would surely be simple and elegant, but it's (Wilkie's is) actually rather a monster and it links together a lot of different branches of math that never had been linked together before, describing certain mathematical concepts in the terms that are used in other spheres of math, then using the tools of yet a different kind of math, some of them very new math disciplines. A lot of it is really difficult to visualize, too. A lot of people now justifiably believe that if no one comes up with a shorter, more elegant proof then Fermat must have been full of it, or wrong, when he claimed to have a solution-famously, "that is too large to fit in this margin".
Andrew Wilkie's contributions to math by tying together so many different disciplines in such innovative, often shocking (but meticulously correct) ways is as/more towering an achievement as/than solving Fermat's last theorem. It's a fascinating subject and a fascinating story as well, I really recommend anyone with even a pedestrian interest in math pick up the book.

#21 RWC

Fermats Last Theorem

Fermat was a lawyer so who cares?

cba, nah! Thanks :-)

OT Simon Singh's books are brilliant - very readable by the layman, very informative. He tiurns mathematics into an adventure.

It is impossible for a cube to be written as a sum of two cubes, or a fourth power to be written as a sum of two fourth powers or, in general, for any number which is a power greater than the second to be written as a sum of two like powers... I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.

That's it, "this margin is too narrow to contain". I misquoted him earlier.

OT

doesnt dennis miller have a new show i forgot which channel night and time anyone having info

OT

Hamas Founder Brushes Off Israeli Warning

JERUSALEM Jan. 16 — Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin brushed off warnings by a top Israeli official that he is "marked for death" and, in a defiant appearance Friday at a Gaza City mosque, said his Islamic militant group will continue to attack Israelis.

Heh. Heh heh. Famous last words.

With U.S. Help, Israel May Boost Missile Production

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - With an expected boost in U.S. funding, Israel plans to step up production of Arrow missile interceptors to expand its missile defense system, diplomats and defense analysts said on Friday.

Good to hear.

jimmytheclaw-CNBC, 9pm, don't know when it starts.

#42 evariste the chow chow 1/16/2004 04:00PM PST

ok dont make me get out my drawing objects in 4D or the new physics by ray davies

/pops a few advil for anticipated headache

my favorit line when in school for structual engineering and doing strength of materials work where the answer comes out to units to the 4th exponent the teacher told me it represented the stiffness of the member

/perv off

#45 evariste the chow chow 1/16/2004 04:02PM PST

damm if thats friday it conflicts with Stargate SG-1

Then there's this guy who may have solved the Poincare Conjecture. If anyone's got a good solution to Russell's antimony, I'll take it. Got a guy at work quizzing us all.

Eye on Stockholm:

Israeli ambassador Zvi Mazel went mad on the matter of female killer art installation which he ruined in Hictorical museum of Stockholm.

Some measures not taken yet...of diplomatical reason...

Damn, I missed a bunch of posts somehow. Maybe I was just scanning for my name.
justdanny, hooray! I'll toast that, whenever my beverages arrive :-)
#37 RWC, LOL! Good one.

#46 jimmytheclaw, LOL!

jimmytheclaw-It's a daily show, I believe, five days a week with a rerun on Sunday.

#48 Renna 1/16/2004 04:04PM PST

ask him the relationship between planks constant the rasterizing point of water and the speed of a chemical laser that is accelerated through cessium vapors its all garbage but sounds cool and i had a math fanatic friend stumped for several days before he figured out there is none without some type of exotic grand unification theory

#39 Engineer

Fermat was a lawyer so who cares?

Well, it derailed this thread for quite a bit. So nyah nyah Mr. Snippy.

#12 everist - Randall Todd is a yuppie name. In the south, men's redneck names are detectable usually by the use of two diminutives, e.g., "Billy Bob (Thornton)". But this is a regional thing. In Vermont, it's called "woodchuck", not "redneck" and those names are recognizable only within a generation or so. For example, for the population that's now in it's 60's, "Leo" is consicered a "woodchuck" name.

jimmytheclaw & RWC- if you're serious, go see if a book called "The Dancing WuLi Masters" is still in print.

Ok, back to OT: I had a condo directly across the street from the mosque in Falls Church. Currently, I live in the area but a different 'burb. I cannot tell you how the population of Muslims here has exploded since the late 80's. On Fridays, the Muslims would use our parking lot to park to go to prayers - illegal - and they were sullen and rude. Now I live next door to Saudis and once a year they have relatives to visit. This past summer I came home to see them piling out of a van, all the women dressed in black including their faces, head to toe. I thought I was watching the arrival of the Nazgul. Most of the Muslims I meet casually are aggressively rude. The Saudis next door were very nice until they crossed me about our dog and got their asses ripped for it.

I'm sorry, this is just anecdotal venting and not moving the conversation along, but I've been living in the middle of a rising swamp and have just realized there are alligators in here. Not happy.

or better yet a formula to draw the largest possible circle inside of a right (30-60) triangle i never found one

ok if you go up the page that link to prophet of doom works

#55 grayp 1/16/2004 04:09PM PST

did you try playing loud sermons from southern baptists on the radio on fridays as people came for there cars or on sunday mornings for the neighbors to hear

#17 Colt: You might be able to participate in the swiftly-approaching primary there, which might require registering as a Democrat or independent. Spoiler politics.

jimmytheclaw-damn! I recommend it, it's an excellent resource. He uses nothing but ultra-orthodox, approved canon. He's a good writer too. I didn't read much beyond the intro and epilog but that's enough for me to know.

OT: Kausfiles says there are lots of rumors going around-- apparently more credibly than usual-- that Noam Chomsky buttbuddy Fidel Castro has gone to the great sugar collective in the sky-- or rather the Guantanamo Bay of the underworld, more likely. I can't find anything else on this yet, Drudge, Free Repub, anywhere like that. But we can hope that like the Saddam news that first was hinted here, one more dictator has ordered around his last lackey...

Whoah! Whoah!!!
Let's Roll's news, maybe?

Miami Herald says .prolly not.

#58 jimmytheclaw - LOL!

Small minds think alike. I actually did get to the point where I would get home from work, sit in my car and play C&W as loudly as I could stand it. Once, when some fart was objecting - in a language other than English, after he had illegally parked in my neighbor's space, I got out and started to dance to the music. In high heels and short skirt, thank you. He ran. Literally. Across Leesburg Pike. Great fun, but still pisses me off.

grayp, LOL!

#60 evariste the chow chow 1/16/2004 04:19PM PST

i'm on chapter 20 my only complaint is his nazi comparison however his comparison of mohammeds gabriel to satan is stunningly believable i cant believe people dont see anything that satan or devils approve of gotta be bad he also goes a step farther to compare mohammed to the satan of revelations in the bible which since the 80's has been in the back of my head

i also believe revelations was probably written in the 6th or 7th century which if it was its more than likely a correct comparison

[Link: www.prophetofdoom.net...]

So, did he have anythin' to say about his decision to plead on his blog? ;)

#61 Mike G: Best of the Web Today mentioned that some South or Central American pol visited Castro, and came back saying Fidel didn't look so swell.

"Our success in the war on terrorism depends on our ability to gain the cooperation of those who have information about the global terrorist network," said Attorney General John D. Ashcroft.

I don't know if the Patriot Act was part of catching or building a case against Royer, but if it was Ashcroft et. al. need to shout it from the rooftops to show that it works and is keeping us safe.

#64 grayp 1/16/2004 04:26PM PST

lol i forgot you are a woman in that case i woulda suggested aerobics with your friends right after friday prayers followed by a pig roast with lots of beer and all your single friends enjoying the forbidden for music play KISS real loud after all gene simmons is an israeli

#62 evariste

Nope, sorry. Like I said, it wasn't OT in the thread I mentioned it in.

OT from this and that:

Red Cross Presses U.S. on Guantanamo Bay Prisoners

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross said on Friday the Pentagon had agreed to accelerate the process of reviewing prisoners for possible release from the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

But ICRC President Jakob Kellenberger said he had yet to see "concrete results" on other concerns he expressed in meetings with three top U.S. officials about the status of the roughly 660 non-U.S. citizens imprisoned at the Guantanamo facility and the conditions in which they are being held.

Nice. Really nice. Perhaps they should stop worrying about the types of people that drove them out of Iraq in the first place. Let us do our damn job.

What is the world coming to!!

Armani Embraces 'Metrosexual' Fashion

Throughout the week designers have been abandoning tough guy looks to explore the gentler side of the male ego, from the sporty wholesome look of the English countryside, to the genteel style of velvet suits, cashmere sweaters and silk evening wear.

"Metrosexual" is the name invented for a man who combines macho with mild, claiming some femininity for the male sex.

"It's a question of esthetics, not gender," said Armani after the show in the theater of his ultramodern headquarters

Well at least now Dean will know what metrosexual means.

...good he pled guilty..

but that really stops us from knowing all the charges and evidence about this case

a trial would have been in the news for months...

will this even make the major news networks?

seems that all of them plead guilty..

hmmm

I really think it stops people from understanding the extent of 'American' muslim involvement in betrayal of America

@28 justdanny

You just made my day. :)

Bless you.

for #61 Bogata Mayor says Castro looks bad

Let's Roll-oh, I somehow missed you saying it wasn't OT for that topic. Thanks!

evariste

after reading the first 19 1/2 chapters of prophet of doom it totally befuddles me how people cant see the inconsistencies in the books of islam i can understand fear keeping people docile but when in the west even refugees from comminist countries joined america they didnt try and make america into a cesspool like they were claiming to flee from

Found no news that Castro was as yet completely toasted.

#71 Let's Roll

That thread was something with Mars, correct?

jimmytheclaw, very true. I don't know what to think about it, except to posit that maybe Islam's a mental virus in a very real sense.
Let's Roll, so was it about water on Mars because of the strange textures that Spirit is encountering?

Or ice under Mars' surface, or whatever it was I read?

whoa fox around the world in 80 second israeli and palestinians climb a large antartic mountain plant there flags and hug

/sound of my beer hitting the floor

someone needs to find this story for charles it will drive the lefties crazy if he gets to post a link to it first

Was it this?

"The US is preparing for the invasion of Mars and other planets," wrote the Palestinian daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah.

"What are the other planets chosen for the US invasion? Are they an axis of planetary evil? And what is the relationship between the regime on Pluto and fundamentalist groups?"

#83 evariste the chow chow 1/16/2004 04:50PM PST

link please if its in english my friends on the mud get a kick outta stories like this

@67 Tiger

Hey! You came. :)

Martian water? That's the story I was talking about, Let's Roll.

OT - but a continuation of yesterdays thread:

IAEA Confirms Yellowcake Found in Rotterdam Likely From Iraq

LLL seething and whining commences in 5...4...3...2...

#84 jimmytheclaw, BBC story quoting al-Hayat al-Jadeedah.

#85 rayra 1/16/2004 04:54PM PST

ok fact check this
i read that during mohammeds lifetime or soon after on raids they were not allowed to carry the koran with them they only chanted it while fighting the reason being that if killed and the book found there secret agenda would be out anyone care to verify this

Re Castro in Best of the Web and all that-- yeah I saw that earlier. So far it just seems like all the rumors could have been spun out of that report without any more substance to them.

On the other hand Kaus talks like he's hearing things that have other sources behind them, but without more details, that could be the same feedback loops operating off that one report (and a sick-looking Castro could still be a long ways from a dead Castro).

We shall see...

Ok, a little humor for the minions

Al Jeez didn't mean anything by it, ok?

I just about split my sides...

Now that the US is on Mars, when are the European Loons going to name an envoy to represent the Mars Republic in the UN General Assembly?

Presenting the No Sh*t Item of the Day:

Al-Jazeera editor leaves for BBC

According to an al-Jazeera spokesman, Ibrahim Helal said he had had "a tempting offer" from the BBC.
The charity BBC World Service Trust confirmed that Mr Helal was joining to work on a variety of media training projects over the next two years.

Jimmy the Claw...a couple of things to note...

While Muhammed was alive, I believe the Quran was not even finished until well after his death ...

I hadn't heard that anecdote before about soldiers in battle...

Also, Revelations, the last book of the Greek Bible was written anywhere from 80-100 AD approx...indeed we have a full example of this book written from the late 200's...

Thanks

It's the book of Revelation, not Revelations.
It's true that the Koran was only in a finalized written form well after Mahomet's death. jimmytheclaw, I'd never heard that either, but it sounds implausible to me. I don't think too many people were literate in those days.

#93 axiom

They already did.

evariste - why DO we want to add Ss on the end of things? We were kidding a gal around here who works at Ruby Tuesday HQ because even she called it Ruby Tuesdays

#95 Albertadude 1/16/2004 05:12PM PST

being too lazy to fact check the revelations date i believe i seen that on a documentary where they argued who and when it was written and summarized 5th-7th century with multiple authors

Free legal advice for Ismail:

Don't bend over for the soap.

wooops preview is my friend it was during the time 2-300 years after his death also ive read where the fragments found in yemen showed signs of editing and when discovered were wisked away sorry bout derailing the thread its just those damm globular clusters keep distracting me

Renna-LOL! I always thought it was Ruby Tuesdays too, but she works there!
Maybe we subconsciously fantasize that rather than a faceless megalith, the places we essify ("Let's go to Costco's!") are actually friends of ours. :-)

Back on topic, slightly-with each new conviction or guilty plea, my confidence that Ashcroft's Justice Department is unjustly maligned increases.

OT (sorta): Anyone have a clue how much Islam in prison is NOI Islam, versus how much is Koranic? Might be worth sowing a little discontent there. "Muhammed was not the final prophet" ought to be enough to get the ball rolling, especially since both groups tend to split along racial lines, and take a supremacist view of their own races/cultures, with hostility toward others.

i think that these people should be given a no plea allowed except it might expose some intelligence source i'd rather see terrorist on trial than kobe or micheal the molester

#8 IHsoter -- "Given CAIR's history of rabidly attacking the mildest criticism of Islam, I am amazed that they have ignored a provocation from such a promenant source. "

Actually, I've hit on the germ of an idea to neutralize CAIR. You know that they have to be well funded to go about threatening people for exercising their First Amendment rights. I don't know where they get all that money from but I have my suspicions.

I think we should start sucking that money up like a black hole swallows a galaxy. Of course, the unintended beneficiary of this will be lawyers but not every idea has completely positive consequences.

The idea is this:

Pick a day as national "humiliate" Islam day. Yeah, I know what you are thinking, "how un-PC of you, you trogladyte". But understand, that humiliating a muslim is generally done by merely reporting facts about their cult and quoting their own prayers for murder, death and annihilation. It doesn't take much.

Put it out everywhere. TV, letters to the editor, internet sites, billboards. Anywhere, everywhere. Just us the quotes from Islamic clergy, academics and politicians.

CAIR will have to respond. They will respond by investigating and litigating against millions of Americans. Every oil dollar sent to Saudi Arabia will find its way back here as CAIR seeks to destroy all its critics through litigation. Count on the New York Times and the Washington Post to shill for CAIR, but against the masses, they are powerless. No moose of Pinch Sulzburger could stop us!

I hope that this jihaditerrorist does some serious time in prison.

Radical Islam drives jihaditerrorism. Here are some thoughts about radical Islam.

What makes radical Islam more difficult to contain, is it modus operandi. It is centralized but works as a decentralized organization... All its units, cells and cadres operating in different regions and different neighborhoods are connected with each other through a very elaborate system of institutions and events...

--- Tashbih Sayyed, an American, who is a self-described free Muslim
[Link: www.paktoday.com...]

Some background on radical Islam, from the same article:

We should know that what is happening in the world today is not what Samuel P. Huntington describes as "a clash of civilizations." It is a clash between a civilization and a culture of violence. Radical Islam does not represent a civilization. It is a culture of violence...

Radical Islam is unlike anything that we have known in the past. It is Fascism, Nazism and Communism combined in one and much more. It is more organized, more funded and its cadres are convinced that they are fighting a God's war...

#106 Stop Hillary

Our enemies are not the free Muslims who will be the victims of radical Islam, just as kaffirs will be victims.

It is better to war against radical Islamism, than against Islam. Quote the haters, sure. And identify them as radical Islamists.

Better to cause a schism, a divide, that separates out radical Islamists from the rest of the ummah, than to proclaim a war against Islam which would make heroes of the radical Islamists in the eyes of most Muslims.

When you face an enemy like radical Islam, it is better to try to segregate it from society at large, including trying to segregate it from Muslim society, which weakens it. If you attack all of Muslim society, you end up strengthening radical Islamism, by giving it the support of all Muslim society.

#74 quark2GreatDane

Jeeez man, I tell ya. I could never settle in to him being there. Could not find a comfortable spot for it in me.

He'll make the trek to visit here in a few days. Its important I be smooth and clear for him. I just need to settle down. I gotta find a none inquisitive non barbed place in myself.

(Just like everything else, I make it all about me. What a loaf.)

#108 EE: I'll gladly limit the fight to the Muslims who believe Allah wants them to kill, conquer, loot and subjugate Infidels. Those are the ones who believe that Muhammed is his prophet, and the Koran is literal and infallable.

Sorry man, but when we defeated Germany, we didn't try to sort out moderate Nazis, Nazis-in-Name-Only, part-time Nazis... we said to all that belief system had to go. Everyone that had to wade through the gore, shrapnel and devastation it had wrought agreed.

No, I'm not saying that Muslims should be killed or forcibly converted because of their faith. But as long as the core teachings of the faith are spread to child and neighbor, someone or some movement is going to bring it back to its core teachings. So just having the militants defeated or cowering and the "moderates" holding sway for a year or fifty won't defuse the danger.

The faith will have to reform, and I'm not for sitting around hoping it happens, having people wonder whether today will be the day a cargo container with a nuke pulls into one of our harbors. Thus, any government or armed group that preaches violent bigotry should be an enemy we seek to overthrow. Can't do it all at once, but that aim should never be forgotten. With constant application and the ever-extending reach of communications, hopefully Muslims will tire of the constant conflict and reform the faith. We can't force or even accelerate the change, unless it's something they truly want to happen for themselves.

#110 Model4

The free Muslims are on our side.
Check out these articles, and you will see that.

[Link: www.paktoday.com...]

We have enough enemies. Why create more?

And why crap all over people who don't deserve it (I think that Geepers was the one who phrased it that way)?

I am not saying that free Muslims are partly supportive of the radical Islamists. They are enemies of the radical Islamists. Check the articles I linked to and you will get the gist of what is going on.

And these enemies of my enemy are my friends and allies.

By using friendly fire, you divide the anti-radical-Islam camp. Not a good idea.

#108 EE -- "When you face an enemy like radical Islam, it is better to try to segregate it from society at large, including trying to segregate it from Muslim society, which weakens it. If you attack all of Muslim society, you end up strengthening radical Islamism, by giving it the support of all Muslim society. "

Not buying that line anymore.

"Non-radical Islam" has had years and ample opportunity and justification to rise up and condemn "radical Islam". It hasn't happened and will not happen. You can count on your hands the number of muslims that have been outspoken in opposition to "radical Islam". Non-radical Islam remains silent, quietly and gratefully accepting of the fruits for radical Islam's murderous rampage against innocents. Not all muslims will take up arms or become Jihadis, but nearly all will happpily accept the result of murder and bloody conquest in Islam's name. The faith demands it. Sick, but true.

No, it has come down to us against them. The time is come to fight the war as relentlessly and mercilessly as it is being waged against us. Western society can accept and allow the practice of different religions. Islamic society by its own mandates and precepts cannot. Oil wealth has given Islam the means to wage global war for Allah and that is what they are doing. Die, surrender or prevail -- that's where it rests. Only the nearly inevitable slaughter of another 50K to 100K of us here in the USA at their hands will bring this into undeniable relief. It's a shame that it will take that, but right now, with anti American leftists in command of the flow of information, serious reality will be required to force the truth of this to become evident.

Personally, I think this war can be won now with relatively few casualties mixed with hardnosed diplomacy, But the Dems, the left and mass media (controlled by the Dems) will not report the truth of the threat against us because as it stands, thousands of dead Americans before November are the clearest path to the electoral defeat of George Bush and the electoral success for the leftist-controlled, special interest, bought and paid for Democrat party.

Stop Hillary, Model4

if today's extremism were truly inextricable from Islam, then there would be no solution but to try to quarantine or convert one sixth of humanity. To say the least, neither of those prospects is realistic.

--- Daniel Pipes, Militant Islam Reaches America

Instead of trying to quarantine or convert one sixth of humanity, Pipes has another approach, that is difficult but not so outrageously impossible.

If the earth-shinkg clash of our time is not between two civilizations, it is and must be a clash among the members of one civilization -- specifically, between Islamists and those who, for want of a better term, we may call moderate Muslims (understanding that "moderate" does not mean liberal or democratic but only anti-Islamist). Just as the deviant Western idelogies of fascism and communism challenged and then had to be expelled from the West, so it is with militant Islam and the Muslim world. The battle for the soul of Islam will undoubtedly last many years and take many lives, and is likely to be the greatest ideological battle of the post-Cold War era.

And what should we do, according to Pipes?

Where, then, does that leave the United States, an overwhelmingly non-Muslim country? It obviously cannot fix the problems of the Muslim world. It can neither solve the trauma of modern Islam nor do a great deal een to reduce the anti-Americanism that is rife in the Muslim world. As the battle among Muslims unfolds, non-Muslims will mostly find themselves in the role of outsiders.

Nonetheless, outsiders, and the United States in particular, can critically help in precipitating the battle and in influencing its outcome. They can do so both by weakening the militant side and by helping the moderate one.

In short, the two opposing strategies are:
(1) try to quarantine or convert one sixth of humanity, or
(2) weaken the militant side and help the moderate side.

But Pipes admits that what he suggests is not a formula for a quick victory.

Let us not, however, delude ourselves. If the United States has over 100 million Islamist enemies, not to speak of an even larger number of Muslims who wish it ill on assorted other grounds, they cannot all be incapacitated. Instead the goal must be to deter and contain them. Militant Islam is too popular and widespread to be destroyed militarily. It can only be fended off.

And how can this be done?

The only way to achieve this goal is by scaring them. And that requires toughness and determination -- and perseverance -- of a sort that Americans have not mustered for a long time. It will also require allies.

Allies.

That is where the moderate Muslims come in. If roughly half the population across the Muslim world hates America, the other half does not. Unfortunately, they are disarmed, in disarray, and nearly voiceless. But the United States does not need them for their power. It needs them for their ideas and for the legitimacy they confer, and in these respects their strengths exactly complement Washington's.

In short: the task ahead is extremely difficult. We need allies. And that is where the moderate Muslims come in.

#113 EE -- "In short: the task ahead is extremely difficult. We need allies. And that is where the moderate Muslims come in. "

OK, that gives us the USA and about a dozen moderates. What is the rest of the plan?

My plan? Crush Saudi Arabia, the fount of Islamic terror and global Jihad. Take the oil, reduce their military to unassemble nuts and bolts. Distribute the revenues under a system that gives all Saudis a chance at a real life. Break up the royals, seize their wealth and redistribute it. They got it by force and keep it that way. They contribute nothing to this planet, nothing, but sloth and self-indulgence. Put 'em to work on oil rigs and make them earn a living, it will give them a better perspective on life.

Dare Syria to make a peep. If they do, just lay waste to it -- as there is nothing in Syria worth saving.

This show of strengh is all it will take. The rest of Islam in the Middle East will get the point. If we destroy those two nations as demonstrably and thoroughly as we did defeat and disassemble feudalism in Japan and fascism in Germany, things will improve. Of course, we will have to rebuild them in the Marshall Plan tradition, but that would be a worthy investment. Of course, still no contracts to the French.

Not a pleasant way to go about it, but better than waiting to be slaughtered here.

#113 EE: I think we're coming to (more or less) the same place from different paths. Note Pipes does say we should fight the militants, just as I said we should fight/overthrow any armed group that preaches bigoted violence.

And I'm for all the allies we can get, and would gladly help Muslims that want to leave the violence behind. The more we have of them the better the whole world will be. But they've got to meet us halfway.

Still, history shows all major religions go through reinterpretations of the faith. Sooner or later someone always points back to the core teachings for guidance and legitimacy. Let's just say that if it stays as is, sooner or later we'll be back in the same boat. Presumably with wealthier, more modern and technologically advanced Muslim populations. Long term, I'm seeing this as walking into the living room and finding a six-year-old holding a loaded revolver. After managing to get the gun out of his hands safely (whew!), we take the bullets out of the gun and lay them both down on the coffee table together, and leave the kid in there and go back to the kitchen.

Until the "kill, conquer, subjugate, hold in enmity" shit is no longer seen as divinely commanded, we've got problems. We can't make them change, but we can respond so strongly to it that it incentivizes them to change for themselves. The old Brit coming upon the Indians wanting to burn a widow. "I understand it's your custom, just as it's our custom to hang chaps that do that" solution. I don't think it's our duty to take in people who pose a reasonable threat to the safety and security of our citizens. Prove Islam can exist for several decades without their version of it being the cause of wars and strife, and we'll talk again. We're friendly folk. If not, the sanctity of innocent life comes first. Give us a call if you want help getting rid of the jihad, but you will be rid of it before coming here to live among Hindus, Jews, Christians, Bhuddists and Athiests who respect each others' human rights.

#115 rayra: Ah feel your pain (lip bite). I've tried to get in the habit of copying before submitting a lengthy post, but get stung by my own ineptness/haste every now and then. Maybe we can pester poor Charles to look into that (as if he doesn't devote so much of his time to us already).

Model4 (#119)

Ah feel your pain (lip bite).

LOL! Have you been watching SNL re-runs?

#118 Model4
I don't disagree with you.

My main point is: Let's cut out the friendly fire as much as possible, let's keep the anti-jihad camp large, let's keep the anti-militant-Islamist camp large.

There is a very big danger. All of us who see that danger are not perfectly united, we all have our differences. My point is that we should try, as much as possible, not to emphasize those differences. We should try, as much as possible, to keep focused on what unites us.

OT: Malaysian PM: Force Not Answer to Terror, We Must Understand Root Causes (Bang. Post Interview)

#19 Colt

This stuff is complicated. I'm going to need a secretary :-)

Colt, I have a handy three point guide to voting called the Howard Plan.

(1) In Australia, DEFINITELY vote for the party led by (John) Howard.
(2) In Britain, PROBABLY vote for the party led by (Michael) Howard. (I'm still looking into this).
(3) In the USA, don't, Don't, DON'T under any circumstances vote for the party led by Howard (Dean).

Happy voting.

Stop Hillary & Model4
Here is data showing the adherents of the world's religions.
[Link: www.adherents.com...]

This data suggests to me the main populations that will form the anti-jihad camp, the camp that opposes radical Islam.
33% of the world is Christian.
15% is Hindu.
14% is non-religious.
6% is Buddhist.
4% is Chinese-traditional
4% is primal-indigenous & African-religious.

Also, some sector of the 22% of the world's Muslims are free Muslims or moderate Muslims who are opposed to the radical Islamists.

(Sikhs, Jews & Bahais, for example, are so few in number that they cannot be shown on the pie chart.)

For this camp to stick together to fight radical Islamism, it should not be based on religion, because religions differ throughout this camp. Rather, the radical Islamists' quest for power, the terror tactics, the militant intolerance and rush to jihad, and desire to shariatize the world, and the totalitarianism and suppression of freedom -- these are the things that we should mainly oppose, because opposition to these is what we have in common.

Free Muslims may be few in number, but because they are Muslim they have a special and an important role to play. By all means they should be in the camp fighting radical Islam.

Let's keep this camp together, and not resort to friendly fire to alienate important parts of it.

How come nothing cool ever happens in or comes out of St Louis? I can't wait to move to Chicago. But I guess the dirty bomber was there. Christ, you can't go anywhere these days. Not that there's an obvious trend here. I wouldn't want to offend members of th RoP and get fired from my job.

evarista & jimmytheclaw:

I have been using "Prophet of Doom" as primary reference for a long time. I find it excellent and it holds up very well against many other resources I have consulted. It is the only reference on the subject that recreates the chronology. This is essential for understanding and also revels numerous gaffs that destroy its supposed inspired origins.

Could someone please contact George Soros and tell him to unsubscribe Ismail Royer from the Eurasianet list coming out of soros.org. Either that or forward it to the "Virginia Department of Corrections" so his mail box at Cair-net.org doesn't clog up and start bouncing important jihadi mail.

Feeding the Alligator article:

[Link: www.omegaletter.com...]

Recently, the Council on American Islamic Relations suffered the dubious honor of
having a second member of its national staff arrested on charges related to terrorism.
Randal Todd "Ismael " Royer was picked up in June by federal agents.

He is alleged to have trained with a Kashmiri terrorist group called Lashkar-e-Taiba, which
has links to al Qaeda. Earlier this year, Bassem Khafagi, who had been community
affairs director for CAIR's office in Washington, D.C., had also been arrested.

And if you are one of those Americans who gets more of your ‘news from ABC News than
from any other source’ you probably didn’t know that. The news media has turned a blind
eye to the alleged wrongdoers at CAIR, refusing to take an in-depth look at this
group, who funds it and why.

Experts on Islam know this group has strong links to the Saudi government, and that Saudi
Arabia's government itself is under the strong influence of the Wahhabi sect of Islam.

Recent intelligence reports to the Congress indicate that the Wahhabi lobby, directly
funded by Saudi Arabia, is working directly to weaken anti terrorism legislation from within,
while providing Islamic terror groups with as much as 50% of their annual funding in exchange for a gentleman’s
agreement to leave the Saudis alone.

The congressional probe, according to Capitol Hill sources, has focused on unpublished U.S. intelligence information stating that Wahhabi agents
from Saudi Arabia have been responsible for terrorist attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq. It also has focused on government documents showing
that the Wahhabi movement has stepped up its efforts to penetrate the United States.

Part of the effort, the authorities said, also has targeted black Muslims in this country believed to be sympathetic to Islamic extremism — using
mosques, prisons and universities throughout the United States.

Federal law enforcement authorities believe cash from Saudi Arabia has been a significant source of funding for global terrorism, particularly the
al Qaeda network founded by Osama bin Laden, who is a SAUDI millionaire..."

#55 grayp

I feel your pain! I lived in Northern Virigina, right in the heart of a radical Islamic cesspool.

Nazgul?! That is so funny. Those horrid women do resemble that, don't they?

Well, I suggest to anyone who's curious to go to Tyson's Corner Mall in Northern Virginia on a weekend. You'd think you were in a bazzar in Egypt or Saudi Arabia. My husband jokes that they should put a mock up of the Kabbah in the middle of the mall and just have all the rude gulf muslims circle around it.

I watched an African American woman lose it on a Nazgul once, because, as you said, they can be VERY rude. This Nazgul hit this woman's child with her bag. It was an accident but she kept going (instead of apologizing), and the child's mother just lost it on her. The Nazgul's male chaperone returned with something racist and at that point I had my little say of him. I suggested that we could go outside and I'd kick his pig ass.

I needn't have worried. It was me, my husband, and a few others who were about to gang up on these risible people and stare and swear them out of the mall.

Ugh! Just thinking about that incident and about 20 others just gets my blood boiling.

I've taken a look at the Prophet of Doom webpage, and really, it is an unreliable source.

It's not only that he 'cherry-picks' or takes quotes out of context (as he does), but that he actually 'tweaks' or changes quotes, and refers to the commentary in the footnotes of the Saudi 'Noble Quran' as if it is part of the actual Quran, and actually supports the claim of the Saudi hardliners that the Noble Quran (which radically differs from most translations) is the 'official' English translation.

Take most of the Quranic quotes on PoD and do a Google search (using quotation marks to search only for that exact phrase) and you will generally find that PoD is the only website on the planet with that exact phrase - in other words, Pod is not discussing the Quran, but a parallel publication written by himself.

PoD frequently neglects to give the exact reference for quotes, but some are recognisable as mangled translations of commonly misused quotes. For example:

"So, fight them till all opposition ends and Islam is the only religion"

This reference (2:193) is normally translated as something like "Fight them until there is no sedition and the religion becomes that of Allah. But if they desist, there will be no aggression except against the evil-doers." (Majlid Fakhry translation), "And fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors." (Maulana Muhammad Ali translation), "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." (Pikthall translation).

Allah is the Arabic word for God and Islam accepts that God is the same God for all the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book: Muslims, Christians, Jews). This was Muhammad's opinion and remains the opinion of the consensus of scholars - although they obviously think Christians and Jews are in error in their interpretation of God's commandments. By changing "the din is for Allah" to "Islam is the only religion", PoD is adding meaning that isn't in the original commandment, a meaning that is only possible if you believe Allah to be a different God to that of Jews and Christians. Why would PoD do this?

Those who want to present Islam as a religion of warfare (terrorists and anti-Muslims such as the author of PoD) often quote the first half of 2:193, but always ignore the second half, and the previous verse (2:192: "But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Pickthall trans.) The 2:191-194 sequence is the first that permits violence, but only in self-defence when the ability to freely practice one's religion is circumscribed by aggression or persecution (fitnatun).[1]

However, PoD chooses the novel translation of 'fitnatun' as 'opposition', changing the defensive meaning of the sequence to imply that 2:193 commands Muslims to attack non-Muslims until all opposition has been annihilated. I find it difficult not to see this as a cynical hatchet job.

There are many aspects of traditional Islam (such as attitudes to inter-sexual relations) that I find unpleasant (but after all, I'm not a Muslim). However, as EE has repeatedly said, we need to maximise our allies and minimise our enemies. The violent, radical Islamists see their primary enemy as other Muslims (whom they claim are in error), and the feeling is mutual. Note that Ismail Royer wrote copiously in defence of Saudi Arabia, but has never been supportive of certain other Muslim practices. The radicals have been trying to take over Islamic governments and institutions since Ibn Wahhab and Ibn Saud joined forces in the deserts of Najd in the 18^th Century. Like the Marxists in the West, these revolutionaries have had varying degrees of success. Al-Qaeda and its affiliates changed their methodological approach during the 1980s, determining that they could only overthrow Arab regimes by first overthrowing their Western 'puppet masters'.[2] Al-Qaeda reconfigured its global network for that purpose and has been building its network of cells since around 1990 (when King Fahd turned down Usama bin Laden's offer of help against the Iraqis and invited the Americans to defend Saudi Arabia instead).

The Muslim world is at least as complex and diverse as the Western world (in which I include America, the EU, the Balkans, Russia, Capitalism, Communism, Nazism, Christian Evangelism, etc etc etc). Suddenly Islam is something we all want to understand. But most people want the short-cut. To get a handle on Islam, they look through the Quran for the 'juicy bits', and determine that Islam is rotten to the core. Or they present all regimes in the Muslim world as being part of the same movement, so that Turkey, dozens of Saudi Princes (whether reformist or hardline), Egyptian revolutionaries and the Egyptian Government are all secretly cooperating against us personally. The truth is far more complicated.

If you are going to accept PoD's contention that Islam instructs its followers to kill all non-Muslims, you will have to come to some rather unflattering conclusions about Christianity.
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me." - Mark 9:34
"They have rejected the word of the Lord. Therefore I will give their wives unto others." - Jeremiah 8:9
"And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." (Surrounding verses make it clear that unbelievers will "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" - Mark 10:41-50. Concludes, ironically, "Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.")

Me? I think organised religion has been one of the most successful ways of suppressing the natural violent tendencies of humanity and encouraging the good. It can also have the opposite effect, particularly at times of communal stress. Remember the savageries of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation? Those people who wrote in this thread that Islam needs a 'Reformation' need to realise that the violent radical Islamists see themselves as reformationists, and it's believed that Sayyid Qutb was to some extent inspired by what he read of the Christian Reformation. We are seeing the Muslim Reformation today - onward the Counter-Reformation!!

Trevor Stanley

[1] Note that fitna can be an internal or external threat to the religion, or can in another meaning be internal struggle against temptation, and can literally mean 'civil war', the lack of peace and order, hence Fakhry's translation of 'fitnatun' as 'sedition'. It's impossible to exactly translate 1400 year old texts in a language completely unrelated to English. However, PoD is the only place I've ever seen it translated as 'opposition'.
[2] This was the basis of the second Chapter of my Honours thesis.