Free Speech!! oh wait its not from a LLL?

hit EM!!!!

Why wasn't Franken arrested? Sounds like a staged publicity stunt to me. What a freak.

I just wanted to point out that we've been discussing this on the last thread, starting here, and that the "heckler" was a LaRouche supporter.

I'm siding with Franken on this one. Sorry.

#2

Indeed, sounds like an assault charge waiting to happen.

Yet another instance of Liberal Hypocrisy.

Its one thing to remove someone from a venue, its another thing to assault someone into silence.

I'll be happy with his arrest and the ensuing lawsuit from the victim.

“I’m neutral in this race but I’m for freedom of speech, which means people should be able to assemble and speak without being shouted down.”

..or body slammed?

Gotta watch out for Al "Shankin'" Franken

Of course I just realized the hecklers were extreme LLL?

werent they?

my bad...seriously though if I had done this...I imagine after the staties were done beating me down and handcuffed me I would be shouted down as a hate monger....that is if I was defending Bush.

Franken made the mistake of not learning from all the other LLL "protestors" doesnt he know when acting out in "civil disobedience" he should wear a mask....To be able to act out his freedom of speech anonymously!!

Austin

yes I had coffee this morning and I dont usually!!! so??$@#%@# you got a problem..ehh...twitch...

Sorry, but Al can't assault someone just because he disagrees with what they're saying. I do understand being upset at this Larouche stooge, but that does not justify assault. Al could have started singing the Star-Spangled Banner or something to drown this guy out and asked security to escort the guy out if he was being disruptive.

If this were to happen at a Bush rally or speech, and instead of Franken you would have, say, David Horowitz take out a heckler, the libs would be calling Bush and his supporters Nazis. Hey wait, they do that anyway...

#3 SoCalJustice:

I agree, LaRouche culties are bad news. But I still think it's strange that Franken wasn't arrested and there's no assault charge. Again, sounds like a stunt to me. Didn't he publicly challenge Rich Lowry to a fight as well?

Tolerance and Diversity. The left Talks the talk,

But don't disagree or we will use violence.

History teaches this again and again.

oh how i wish that someone like Al Franken(stein) wd take a shot at me. he wd be eating baby food for weeks afterwards.

Who is this guy anyway? A nominee for the 2004 Idiotarian Award?

I believe the Supreme Court has ruled that body slams are considered speach and are therefore protected...

What happened to Franken anyway? I used to think he was hysterically funny on SNL in the late 80s - early 90s.

From the bottom of the article:

The trouble started when several supporters of fringe presidential candidate Lyndon Larouche began shouting accusationsat Dean.

Let's see, what type of "accusations" do LaRouche supporters like to shout?

That Dean's married to a Jew?

That Dean's raising his kids Jewish?

That Dean's part of the Zio-Straussian-Neo-Con conspiracy, and a minion of the Jewish Nazis?

And LaRouche supporters aren't always exactly the calmest, most reasonable people. They were most likely asking for it.

Let the bastard press charges against Franken.

(#10) davesax

I saw an interview where he publicly challenged Hannity to a fight - at least I think it was Hannity.

Does anyone think Al Franken would tackle a heckler giving grief, to say, Dick Cheney?

"Free Speech is ONly for UberLibs" indeed.

Curious to know the size of the tackle-ee. Doubt Franken would tackle someone his own size (unless he had a bodyguard with him)

Ahh, how quickly one forgets one's college days, when heckling a "right wing" speaker was "freedom of speech"!

F*cking hypocrite.

I wonder if he would done the same to a Bush heckler.

Liberals = the fascists of our time.

(#19) Stephen Gordon

I wonder if he would done the same to a Bush heckler.

To me, that's a much more interesting and viable question. Dean jumped down the throat of that Bush heckler in Iowa, but no one got body slammed (of course, Franken might not have been there).

But I can't blame someone for wanting to tackle a LaRouche supporter who's in the midst of "shouting accusations" while someone else is trying to speak or accomplish something.

Sounds like a good 'ol double-led take-down to me. I wonder if Franken used to wrestle?

#16 -- no he challenged Rich Lowery at NR to a fight - Rich should have accepted the challenge and beat the shit out of that moron, but he didn't.

Rich did the right thing by turning down the fight, but i wd have loved to have seen someone knock Franken's lights out.

Notwithstanding Franken's bizarre interpretation of freedom of speech, the proper response would be to have the police escort the man away if he was disturbing the peace or being disruptive. They do usually have police at these events.

I'm still on the fence whether this is a real story or not? Sounds too good to be true.

How long has LaRouche been a fringe candidate, anyway? Twenty, thirty years? Seems like forever.

He's still right about Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and especially Ann Coulter. I'd take Franken over those three turkeys any day.

I suppose I might consider it a mitigating factor, if, as SoCalJ suggest the LaRouchie was shouting antisemitic comments, as I'd assume Franken is Jewish.

However, if someone was heckling, oh say, Paul Wolfowitz, maybe accusing him of being part of the Zionist cabal, do you think Al Franken would body-slam that person?

Stuart Smalley goes postal!

Typical of the left: shouting down people you don't agree with, stealing newspapers on campus if they contain something you don't like, marching and chanting "no justice - no peace!" and now tackling people from behind are all legitimate forms of political speech. Whenever a republican opens his or her mouth its "hate speech".

Remeber the incident from the Florida recount? A handful of republicans were protesting that the recount was being done behind closed doors (which was prohibited by FL election laws) and the next thing you know the Dems were saying that there was "a whiff of facism in the air". Does anyone recall which congressman said that?

#26 Gordon

Here's an article for you and your ilk. I hope you were kidding.

Coulter vs. Franken

(#23) h-man

Right you are (and davesax too).

Here's a link:

Franken’s humor overpowered by cynical Look at the Right

He challenges National Review Editor Rich Lowry to a fight after Lowry said Democrats have sissified politics. Fortunately, Lowry declined. If he had accepted, I’m not sure how two grown men having a fistfight about politics qualifies as humor.

I was probably thinking of this:

Al Franken: Bill and Hillary's Handpicked Media Hitman?

But now the Clintons' "big friend" is trying to do the same thing with O'Reilly, Fineman said, describing the effort as part of the same strategy that saw Franken causing a scene at this year's White House Correspondents Dinner, where he harangued Fox liberal Alan Colmes for not being obnoxious enough on the air.

On his TV show Monday night, O'Reilly noted the Colmes incident, then recalled that "a few years ago [Franken] almost got into a fist fight with Sean Hannity."

Al's a fairly bellicose guy, apparently.

OT, but related. Intelligent, reasoned discourse on display at a Kucinich rally: Dude, Where’s My Candidate?

Adams said he's "livin' in a tent, don't have to pay no rent." He wore a multicolored Viking hat with braids hanging from each side. He was standing by the entrance to the event when a man who called himself "Vermin" approached. Vermin wore a ZZ-Top-looking beard, Mad-Max-style shoulder pads, and a long rubber boot for a hat. He said he was running for president on the "time-travel research platform." If elected president, he would fund time-travel research so we could "go back and kill Hitler."

#26, SoCalJustice

I agree with you about the nature of the LaRouche types, but when does "shouting objections" turn from the exercise of free speech into distubance of the public peace? After several shouts and ignoring the request to let the speaker continue? When does heckling become fair game for tackling?
What was the story here?

(#27) Ed Moran abu Halal for the Eid

Yeah, Franken's Jewish.

However, if someone was heckling, oh say, Paul Wolfowitz, maybe accusing him of being part of the Zionist cabal, do you think Al Franken would body-slam that person?

That's a good question - don't know if they'd ever be in the same place to test that theory.

So, now that you're Halal, are you making the Hajj?

I don't have too much sympathy for a LaRouche freak. However, I am suprised Al was not arrested. He should have.

As far as heckling goes, I have mixed feelings about it. Lord knows it would be hard to restrain myself if Adam Shapiro was speaking. However, I would prefer to protest before/after and during Q&A.

Several years ago I went to see Camille Paglia speak. Oy! There were some angry women there. The seething was high pitched and annoying. Several of them got kicked out. I spoke to one of them afterwords about the concept of free speech. Basically I told her that she had the right to protest but by disrupting the lecture she was interfering people's right to hear what they want to hear which is also a form of free speech.

"disturbance"

And speaking of the Hajj, here's it's fugly Ringleader, making news today speaking out about the French headscarf ban:

Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority called France's plan to pass a law banning the Islamic headscarf in schools an "infringement on human rights" and said the country was more concerned with the rights of nudists than Muslims.

I'm I seeing things, or did the words "human rights" just escape his lips?

Hypocracy, thy name is Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh.

If Al Franken does not get sued for that, I will be very surprised. You can't tackle people like that. It is just simply battery and actionable in any state.

(#37) Me

Oops, that should have been:

I'm Am I seeing things........?

BTW, the excuse for any and every one of my typos and anti-logical positions I take today: I'm running on nothing but "Joe"mentum.

What makes this a potentially messy situation is that Franken is now stinking rich from all his book sales.

I smell a lawsuit a-comin. Mheh.

“I’m neutral in this race but I’m for freedom of speech, which means people should be able to assemble and speak without being shouted down.”

Umm, no. It means people should be able to speak without being tackled by deranged hypocrites.

This assmonkey probably thinks "free speech zones" are wonderful innovations.

----------------------

Gor-don -

FOAD.

"Hecklers" as such are just another form of terrorism. Have at 'em, Frankel.

I'm kinda young. Can someone explain this LaRouche phenomenon to me in a couple sentences?

Sheesh, I'd just heard last year that Franken was verbally abusive and threatening in public to Alan Colmes and then some other media type on another occasion (guessing that was the Lowry thing). Franken's obviously unstable.

Can't wait to see his stall, spin, crash, burn shortly after taking off on his radio gig. It clearly looks like he doesn't have the requisite discipline a job like that takes. He'll either only be talking to the LLL (boring) or will freak out on anyone else (scary). Of course it will all be a (VRW) conspiracy when advertisers don't want to go near an often anti-American and seldom listened to show.

I guess the next step will be for college kids to send in requests for Al to do security at scheduled talks given by conservative speakers. Surely he'd have been kicking heads in at Concordia and Berkeley.

I love LGF as I always learn something and usually add to my vocabulary.

As of today, I will be trying hard to use "assmonkey" as soon as possible. Thanks Thom!

#29 Chairmandances

Jerrold "Jaba the Hutt" Nadler.

Personally, I think he just forgot his deodorant that day.

Franken is a shameless self-promoter and, along with Michael Moore, represents the worst of the LLL.

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: The Toppling of Dissent

Sounds like assault with battery to me....

He's all for 'freedom of speech', as long as you don't interfer with his listening enjoyment.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Full on, d--- sure anything goes, until you go stepping on his own toes. -- Newsboys, Truth Be Known]

Whoever owns the meeting hall (or rents it) has the right to free speech by virtue of property ownership, the same as your home or apartment.

Those who would act out of turn and disturb the proceedings are, rightfully, asked to leave and are removed if necessary by the proper authorities. (Note: Franken, unless employed as security for the event, has no such power.)

(The most confusion comes when the speeches are made on campuses or other "government property". The line of ownership becomes blurred and subsequently it becomes difficult if not impossible to determine who has the "right of way" when it comes to speech.)

If the LaRouche supporter was yelling antisemitic comments, then Franken's actions were appropriate.

Gordon (#24),

He's still right about Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and especially Ann Coulter. I'd take Franken over those three turkeys any day.

Well you're going to get your wish Gordon:

'The O’Franken Factor'

Lefty satirist Al Franken talks about his plans for the three-hour radio show he’ll host and how he feels about going head-to-head with Rush Limbaugh.

'One of our goals is to do a drug-free radio show'

And why do I think that if Rush Limbaugh had done this it would be the lead story on every nightly news cast.

Well, since Franken seems to enjoy provoking physical confrontations with those he disagrees with, I'm sure it'll be any day now that he challenges the Gov. of California to a little hand-to-hand combat, right? Right? Hello, is this thing on?

Lordy, lordy, I dun found mah home! You folks are the perfect answer to the Broadway community where I spend my days. How long do you think it will be before Al just loses it and takes a swing at someone? I mean it's been coming for a while. Once that smug condescension hits the mainstream and people react like real people and not the chattering class that Al surrounds himself with, how long will it be before he loses it and slugs some dissenter?

LaRouchies have long been active in Illinois, and because of this, they don't get away with their antics of not so long ago.

In fact, they ran as democrats in the 1986 Illinois primary. With their mellifluous WASP names (acquired, rather than given) and some political derring-do, they managed to sweep the Secretary of State, Senatorial and (if I remember correctly) Gubernatorial nominations. The democrats had to form something called the "Illinois Solidarity Party" in order to counteract the usurpation of their party slate.

The LaRouche candidates, one of whom I believe was named Mark Brown, effectively lost any chance of election when it was revealed that they had heckled a prominent jewish speaker at a temple in north suburban Glencoe, Illinois. The piece de la resistance of their heckling was throwing a hunk of rotting meat at the speaker.

Not that I would excuse Franken for what he did (and I haven't heard anything about their hurling rotting food at Dean, which in my estimation would excuse someone putting a choke-hold on a LaRouchie), but these guys have a way of getting under your skin. Better to have simply thrown them out, I'd say.

#43 fat.elvis

Lyndon LaRouche has been running for president for years. In the past, he would have a 30 minute spot on tv shortly before the election. He always runs as Democrat, though the Dems have no association with him. Fortunately, the Dems have watch dog groups that keep tabs on his followers because they like to run in local elections in hopes people who don't pay attention will vote straight Dem on election. He is basically your conspiracy theorist wacko. Among his gripes is the "Illuminati/Jewish Cabal" and the "Vatican Conspiracy."

I believe he is a convicted fellan. I think tax evasion had something to do with it.

(#43) fat elvis

Can someone explain this LaRouche phenomenon to me in a couple sentences?

I know others beat me to it, but how about one sentence:

LaRouche is an anti-Semitic ultraconservative (or ultra-leftist, depending who you ask) British-hating nutball.

Some choice moments:

In a 1978 article in the NCLC publication New Solidarity, LaRouche wrote, "Israel is ruled from London as a zombie-nation" and that Zionism is "the state of selective psychosis through which London manipulates most of the international Jewry." In describing Zionism as "a hideous cult," LaRouche went on to allege that the Nazis "only" killed "about a million and a half" Jews and asserted that Hitler had been put into power largely with the backing of certain Jewish financial interests.

A November 1997 article in the organization's journal, The New Federalist, claimed that the 'British got rid of Rabin -- shot to death two years ago today -- and brought in Netanyahu, whose assignment has been to return the region to a state of war... Netanyahu is gunning for nuclear war [but in] order to carry out this British game plan... [he] must first purge several leading figures in the intelligence and military establishment who consider such a war suicidal'.

Finally, LaRouche declared that there was "a hard kernel of truth" in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious anti-Semitic forgery promulgated at the turn of the century by the Czarist secret police.

didn't tom friedman smack someone around recently? get em in the ring!! friedman v. franken someone call don king

#49 Unmutual: Try selling a building on campus for your own personal financial gain, and help yourself to some of the office equipment in side while the bids are coming in. The "line of ownership" becomes pretty unblurred really fast. Someone is the responsible custodian for the building/facility/event.

#34

Franken is Jewish in name only. Hi wife is Catholic, and he almost never went to Hebrew school. He wasn't bar-mitzvad, either. Not that any of that means much, but I seriously doubt he identifies with mainstream American Jews or Israel. What's more, he's a friend of Eric Alterman, whose anti-Jewish diatribes at The Nation (which Charles posted here) during the attack on Iraq, helped to "institutionalize" the thinly-veiled Anti-semitic "Neocon" sneering of the left.

Ms. Andi:

You are correct. Lyndon LaRouche went to prison on a conviction related to tax evasion.

He's a freak. His infomercials used to focus on the EU as a threat to America, but for the looniest of reasons (none of which were related to the real controversies that have come out of Brussels).

Al Franken says, "Support free speech or I'll kill you."

Hmm. Speaking of Franken, Glenn Beck last Thursday had a story of meeting Franken at an airport. Frustrated by the long line at security, Franken asked an airline rep if there wasn't a "mechanism for people like me" trying to get through security. Upon being told that he would have to wait in line "like everyone else", Franken went to the head of the line and started asking people if he could cut in front of them as he was at risk of missing his flight. Obviously oblivious to the fact that most of the other people in line were at the same risk.

Yeah. L³ at its hypocritical best.

#50 Jersey Devil 1/27/2004 08:47AM PST

If the LaRouche supporter was yelling antisemitic comments, then Franken's actions were appropriate.

So free speech is conditional, then? Free, as long as you approve?

#30:

That Coulter-Franken comparison was a joke. The guy admits that he did not even to bother to buy Franken's book--instead, he spends 10 minutes skimming the first few pages in the bookstore. Meanwhile he has read Coulter's work multiple times in order to publish professional reviews.

It was, of course, no surprise when I completed the article and learned that Dr. Binswanger was "a longtime associate of Ayn Rand." Classic Objectivist move: at the same time as you condemn those who you claim prop up straw man versions of the ideas and arguments you support before they tear them down, argue against them by tearing down straw man versions of their own theories that you have propped up. For instance, write an article pretending to be an "objective" and studied assessment of the works of Franken and Coulter and hope people forget the fact that you actually only skimmed the book you eventually conclude is inferior for 10 minutes in the aisle of the bookstore. Then take Coulter's word for what Franken actually said, drawn from a column rebutting Franken's accusations of her (partially admitted) errors in fact, judgement, and taste. Then write the review in a condescending, holier-than-thou tone and label it 'Objective'.

Coulter and Franken are both sensationalistic exaggeraters, obviously pandering to diametrically opposed audiences, but I agree with #26 about who's the lesser evil.

#58 Model4

Oh, I understand all that, but we're talking about freedom of speech and why many people (if not MOST people) fail to understand where that freedom comes from and how it is enforced.

If it is not the governments province to tell us how to think or what to say, i.e. the famous "separation of church and state", then therefore

government-owned property

should not be possible.

By virtue of the fact that the government owns the pulpit or meeting hall, and rents it out for one speechmaker in favor of another, you end up with

the government effectively endorsing one individual's ideas at the expense of another individual's.

The Founders would be appalled.

yeah LaRoach is an abomination as are his followers.

That said: Franken is asking for a pair of handcuffs and a lawsuit. Now that he's flush with cash, he's a good target.

Any idea how I can get myself bodyslammed by Franken? I could use the cash. :-)

#64 classicliberal

If a person writes a book entitled "Reagan Killed More Jews Than Hitler", am I required to read every word before I can make a judgement that the author is an idiot and that his book is worthless?

Of course not.

What I want to know is what color shirt did Franken wear when he beat his political oppenent to silence. If he's a traditional guy, odds are is was a brown shirt.

(#59) davesax

FYI:

From an interview with Al Franken:

Q: What is your position on Israel? You actually seem to have a similar position on Israel with your cultural "enemy" Sean Hannity?

A: I don’t know about the lies about Israel on “Hannity and Colmes”. I’m pro-Israel like Sean. I don’t like the settlements. I’m not a fan of Sharon. Arafat gave us Sharon by turning down Clinton and Barak’s offer. He said screw ‘em and Sharon was elected. Settlements are based on religious fundamentalism.

And

America's leading political satirist, who combines personality, education and religion, comes to Atlanta.

Lately, Franken has been appearing at Jewish fund-raising events. His Jan. 16 appearance at the Jewish Federation of Greater Atlanta's annual campaign kickoff event is only the latest.

Franken says he likes Jewish audiences because he can use his entire repertoire.

"I can also talk about things that I relate to that only Jews can relate to, being Jewish myself," adds Franken, who is not a particularly devout Member of the Tribe.

As a youngster growing up in Minnesota, he wrestled with the theological 'Big One' common to many of his generation: "I sort of had the Holocaust pounded into my head ¿ and I think there was a good reason. But because of that, I had trouble accepting a powerful and just God that could allow that to happen.

"As a Jew," he goes on, "I'm not very observant. We do go to seder every year. But I married a Roman Catholic [he and Franni recently marked their 25th anniversary]. I got her to renounce the pope, but that's as far as that went."

Franken says his "kids think of themselves as Jewish," though neither has a Jewish education. "They grew up on the Upper West Side of New York City, so I guess they're Jewish by osmosis."

#20,
I see you got the to the same idea before me...

#65 (me!)

Hmmm. I must have clicked "quote" instead of "italics".

must. preview.

#57 abbu elbaum

Yes, Thomas Friedman also went off his meds recently.

Maybe there is something in the LLL's water supply?

It's too bad he didn't try this stunt with some-one that knows how to prevent having their legs taken out, like, say Iron-Fist, or me...

Big-Al woulda had more problems than just some broken glasses.

Before I go crazy could someone please tell me what LLL stands for? Lily-livered, lust-crazed lowlife? Lackluster, lollipop-sucking Lilliputian? Lascivious, leering lightweight?????

#67:

Thank you for your last comment. It illustrates my point more effectively than I could articulate it.

Franken was out to prove how liberals are 'tough' and not wimps, which was also his motivation for challenging Rich Lowry to a boxing match when he made such a charge.

I've gained a new respect for Al Franken after learining that he's recently been on a USO tour for our troops. But unless the man he tackled presented an immediate threat to someone, tackling him outright seems to me to be an extremely childish thing to do, even for a Democrat.

If Al wanted to display masculinity he could have done it in a more gallant way, like forcibly 'escorting' the man away by the shirt collar! Old School, but that's much better than pre-school! If he's not physcially capable, whatever secuity they had should have done so.

CNN is reporting that Franken quipped that he was 'deputized' by Dean security. Also, LaRouche supporters were removed by security from Lieberman's Monday nite appearance.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

The way the article is written, it appears that Franken was part of Dean's security contingent:

Franken, a comedian and self-described liberal well-known for his attacks on the Bush administration and conservative-leaning media, helped carry out one of the disrupters. In the process, Franken's glasses were knocked off his face and broke in two.

Putting them back together with electrical tape, he quipped he had been "deputized" by Dean's security.

#21 SoCalJustice 1/27/2004 08:18AM PST

But I can't blame someone for wanting to tackle a LaRouche supporter

Words should not be met with violence. I presume that Dean has some security dudes capable of ejecting dissidents. Franken didn't do Dean any favors with this.

#26 Gordon 1/27/2004 08:24AM PST

He's still right about Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and especially Ann Coulter. I'd take Franken over those three turkeys any day.

You're kidding, right? There's not much I'd take over Ann Coulter. She's a babe, and she can shoot too.

GTC

#74:

I believe it means: "Loony Liberal Leftist"

or

"Loony Leftist liberal"

I like to shorten it and just call them barking moonbats.

#74:

left-leaning-liberal, i believe

Hey, wait a minute! I get it now. Angry Dean has Angry Franken on his side.

Franken:

Settlements are based on religious fundamentalism

Bzzz! Wrong! The settlements were initiated by Shimon Peres - that's right, the dovish of them all, back in the early 70s. The Party in power was Labor then, and they toed the oommunist line almost to the point of agnosticism, since religion was not allowed in the bad old USSR. They believe that this area is part of the Jewish National Home, as clearly marked on maps from the League of Nations era onward. Jewish Fundamentalists were an endangered species back in the early 70s, and harldly wielded any power at all.
Nowadays the settlements are indeed filled with religious fundamentalists. BTW, they are fundamentalists of the hard working, wild west (well, east), shoot back kind, not the black-clad do nothing but breed and get hideously fat kind of religious fundamentalists we have within the green line.

Franken, not surprisingly, is unaware of history, and thinks things have ever been the way they are when he first deigns to look at them. And this guy wants to be a commentator? Give me a break (in his hogwash).

(#78) GT Charlie

Words should not be met with violence.

I would agree with that in most cases - probably 99%, but I don't agree with it as an absolute. And I wasn't in the hall, and I don't know what the guy was saying.

If the LaRouche supporter wants to sue Franken, or the Exeter police want to arrest Franken, fine.

But LaRouche supporters have been frequenting the area near where I work this campaign season, and I'm frankly surprised they don't get beat up more - they're a belligerent, and nasty bunch of conspiracy theorists and anti-Semites.

If the LaRouche supporter was yelling antisemitic comments, then Franken's actions were appropriate.

Even if that was the case, Franken's actions were not appropriate. Attacking someone because they were being disruptive is illegal. We have to abide by the law.

Following your logic, Muslims might say it's okay to assault somone who denies that Mohammed is Allah's prophet, or beat up someone who makes an "insulting" comment about Palestinians.

Lawlessness is never a good thing. I think Islam is a crock of shit and that antisemitism is abhorrent, but I'll defend the right of anyone to express their views, however misguided they may be.

Regardless of what the liberals may believe, freedom of speech applies to all points of view. We would be the hypocrites if we didn't acknowledge that.

Jalal's pop-psych analysis, for which I have no training, expertise, or standing: Franken's hypocrisy and egocentricity are of a piece.

And I'm having a hard time straightening out LaRouche's crimes in my mind. My personal recollection was that he was convicted by the Commonwealth of Virginia for fraud, I believe surrounding credit card contributions to his never-ending candidacy for President. Googling finds references to tax evasion, mail fraud and conspiracy, the first two of which are federal crimes. I can't seem to find anything authortative.

Ah well, just shows how slimy this character is. Or maybe it's the fact that he's so extremist and insignificant, nobody's worried about getting the facts straight.

Or maybe both.

#15

What happened to Franken anyway? I used to think he was hysterically funny on SNL in the late 80s - early 90s

Yeah, he thought so too. I always thought he was just dumb. Whenever he was on screen I couldn't wait for his bit to be over.

He still thinks he's hysterical. I haven't changed my opinion either.

“I got down low and took his legs out,” said Franken afterwards.

That couldn't have been too difficult considering that Franken is a troll.

#27

as I'd assume Franken is Jewish.

Although not a believer in the Jewish religion. I remember reading an interview some years ago in which he said that the Holocaust proves that there is no G-d. He was rather smug about it, as though his point were self-evident. As far as I know, by the way, he and his family grew up safe in the US; he did not mention losing any relatives in the Shoah.

Franken thinks it's undisputable that the existence of evil committed by man shows there is no G-d? And that the Holocaust is qualitativelydifferent from anything that happened before it? A deep thinker he ain't.

From today's NRO, a story about covering the Kucinich campaign in New Hampshire:

Dude, Where’s My Candidate?

....In case you think these people sound a little, well, nuts, consider that not far off were the Lyndon LaRouche supporters. One of them handed me a booklet with a picture of Dick Cheney on the cover. "You know who that is on the cover?" asked her friend, poking her head out of the back window of a rented black GMC Yukon. "It's Lucifer." She wasn't kidding.

That's why, when I approached some Kucinich supporters in the parking lot, unwittingly brandishing the LaRouche booklet in my right hand, they picked up their pace and tried to walk away. After convincing them I was a reporter, they confided, "The LaRouche people are driving us crazy! They're really aggressive to us."

Campaign activists don't just try to convert the locals. They try to convert each other. And the poor peaceful Kucinich people have been hounded relentlessly by the LaRouche supporters, who don't like to take "no, thanks, you fruitcake" for an answer.

We're not talking about sane people here.

I don't care *what* the heckler said, nor do I care how loud or how often he said it. A *professional* campaign relies on *professional* security to quietly take care of such dirty work, and to pretend otherwise makes a sham of the rule of law.

Is this the fascist demagogue Lyndon LaRouche, who runs the Schiller Institute? If so Franken can give his supporters a kicking any day of the week.

In July a British lad called Jeremiah Duggan attended one of LaRouche's seminars and was murdered after revealing that he was Jewish.

German police initially said it was an accident until the British coroner conclusively disproved any possibility of it having been an accident.

Death riddle of Jewish student in Global Cult

Mystery death of anti-war student

To those who are still a little unclear on who Lyndon Larouche is and what his supporters believe:
In short, Larouche is a relic from an earlier era of conspiracy theorists. He believes in a once-common but now-ludicrous conspiracy between European Jewish bankers (like the Rothschilds), the British Royal family, the Vatican, and the "Bavarian Illuminati," all conspiring in a convoluted cabal to dominate the globe. Such ideas were common among WASP-y extreme-right nutcases in the '50s and '60s, but that entire generation has mostly died off or succumbed to Alzheimer's. Very few people alive today even remember this phase in conspiracy-ology, and even fewer still believe in it. Larouche-ites have totally ignored the political events of the last 40 years or so, and as a result their conspiracy theories have lapsed into complete meaninglessness, even within the realm of Conspiracy Theory studies. It's amazing he even has any followers at all -- they must all be totally insane. Yes, they're anti-Semitic, but in such an old-fashioned and off-kilter way that even the Nazis and Muslims can make no sense of it. Larouche defies the concept of Left and Right. He's off in his own bizarre universe. Mostly, Larouche exists as comic relief in the political arena. Not a single sane person in America takes him seriously.

#62 Thom

Page Six in today's NY Post

January 27, 2004 -- LEFT-wing shill Al Franken is as big a spoiled brat as any Hollywood star. As hundreds of journalists patiently waited up to three hours to catch flights out of over-packed Des Moines Airport following the Iowa Caucus, a frenzied Franken marched to the front of the line. "He threw a complete drama queen snit," says a witness. "He went up to the security check-in and kept whining, 'I can't miss my flight!' - but the security guards wouldn't even entertain it." The reporters weren't amused: "There were a lot of other players in the line and we were all shouting at him, 'Hey, we're here too!' "

NY Post

Because he's good enough, smart enough and doggone it, he doesn't have to abide by the rules that govern the rest of us.

Stuart Smalley goes Nutzoid.
More crushing of dissent in Ashcroft's Amerikka
A chill wind is blowing in the nation.

Coming soon to a bookstore near you: Lies, and the Lying Liars who Bodyslam Other Lying Liars when they Lyingly Shout Lies at Yet Other Lying Liars

A few months ago (last summer) I saw a couple of LaRouche guys cruising Constitution Avenue (in D.C.). They were riding in a busted up old Ford station wagon that had an enormous loudspeaker (like in the Blues Brothers movie) mounted on top. The two guys inside were wearing dirty t-shirts and had not shaved for days. The loudspeaker was repeatedly playing some incoherent political message at top volume.

The tourists were not impressed.

#89 SoCalJustice

I would love to hear the arguements between the Kucinich folks and the LaRouche wackos.

I'm glad the Kucinch crowd at least have the good sense to avoid those nutjobs.

#90 (Flaming Sword) has struck at the heart of it: removal is up to security or police if requests to stop are ignored. No bystander has the right to tackle anyone in the audience unless there's an imminent threat of physical harm to oneself or another person.
It doesn"t matter if the heckler(s) support LaRouche or Harold Stassen (still running)

#30 Unmutual: No, I wasn't kidding. I don't particularly agree with Al Franken on many issues, but he has it over raging liberalphobe Ann Coulter. Anyone who accuses people like me of treason because we dare to disagree with her can take her talk of treason and shove it up her ass.

#43 fat.elvis:

As SoCalJustice pointed out, LaRouche seems to have it in for the Brits. In one of his infomercials (called in from federal prison), he claimed that a Russian fleet ostensibly paying a friendly visit to New York in 1860 or so was actually there to take on the British and French, who (according to LaRouche) were secretly behind the whole southern secession movement. More infamously, he claimed that Queen Elizabeth II was the world's biggest international drug smuggler, which Saturday Night Live skewered in a sketch featuring the Queen accepting a briefcase full of $100 bills from Henry Kissinger (another favorite LaRouche target).

#55 Ms. Andi, #60 Sharona: I thought LaRouche's conviction was for credit card fraud. I could be wrong. :-)

#38 Lawrence: Good point. It's called an intentional tort, and the court's judgment can include punitive damages.

#93 scooter

Ah so! That's where it was - after Iowa. Thanks. (The ol' memory ain't what it used to be).

#41 Thom: No counter-arguments again, eh? Right back at you...

abbu elbaum (#57)

LOL, great idea. I'd love to see that.

This will get just about as much attention as when Thomas Friedman of the New York Times beat a guy up at a peace symposium.

That said, I would have to agree that LaRouche-heads are mostly loony tunes. Last time they were up on the Hill, they were filling people's offices with what looked like 16 year-old girls and middle-aged mental patients screaming about the international Illumination conspiracy, Alan Greenspan, the Masonites , and the Joooo bankers plotting to unjustly imprison the sainted Lyndon.

Just stare at them like you're listening, keep smiling, and call the cops to come take them to a nice, comfy, padded room.

It would be hard not to want to take out a Larouche supporter. They really are an offensive bunch of creeps.

As for Ann Coulter, i can't stand the woman. She is extreme in her views, in particular her socially conservative ones. In one of her last columns in The National Post she had some weird theory that Dean was destroyed by the US media at the behest of the Democratic party establishment. She claimed that Democratic voters are slaves to the media and that their media pupppet masters forced them to switch from Dean to Kerry.

Apparently Al Franken has lost his last tenuous grasp on reality. Lock him up in one of those padded rooms. It's for the best ...

I just gotta say, knowing what I know about LaRouche and his supporters, I'm not that worried about one of them getting tackled, by either a private citizen or a *professional* security guard, when s/he's trying to disrupt an event.

It's up to the local district attorney to decide whether or not Franken committed a crime worthy of prosecution, and it's up to the local defense bar to determine whether or not there's an actionable claim against him.

Just a thought: if it wasn't Franken who tackled the LaRouche-y, but some random New Hampshire citizen attending the rally, I doubt several people here would be equally as incensed as they seem to be now.

Franken can be a prick, and is definitely a lightening rod.

#107 Zulubaby: Maybe lock him up with Ann Coulter in a padded room with a double bed...

SoCal,

I disagree. If it had been an ordinary citizen, they'd probably be charged with assault and possibly be arrested. Stars get off easy.

This is shocking. The heckler offered no imminent threat to Dean yet Franken launched a unilateral attack against him without the prior approval of the other Democart candidates or France. There's only one conclusion: Franken = Hitler.

(#110)

iagofest a.k.a. abu fly killa

I've never been to New Hampshire, so I can't really say. But I wouldn't be surprised if the authorities look at something like this and determine that the LaRouche supporters were the instigators.

And although it's true that often stars get favorable treatment, some famous people seem to get arrested and given either equal or even less than favorable treatment sometimes: Michael Jackson, Martha Stewart, Kobe Bryant, Bobby Brown and wife, Rush Limbaugh - they are not always above the law.

(#111) Paul

LOL

re #111

er....make that "Democrat"

#103 Gordon

#41 Thom: No counter-arguments again, eh? Right back at you...

Counter-argument? Huh. I had no idea that

#26 Gordon

He's still right about Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and especially Ann Coulter. I'd take Franken over those three turkeys any day.

constituted an argument. And you're a law student?!

Idiot.

(#110) iagofest a.k.a. abu fly killa/(#112) me

Oops, I meant to highlight this (rather than you're name):

If it had been an ordinary citizen, they'd probably be charged with assault and possibly be arrested. Stars get off easy.

#100 Chris Allen

#55 Ms. Andi, #60 Sharona: I thought LaRouche's conviction was for credit card fraud. I could be wrong. :-)

I'm not sure. It wouldn't suprise me though.

#95  Guy Smilee

very very funny!!!

Franken gets a high-five from me, though I'd never be at a Dean rally.

The LaRouchebags are not only psychotic, they never go away. I see 'em in DC all the time.

As for Coulter, she's a lying kook who has remarked in the past about her need to get out of NYC because there were too many Jews there. Franken properly dressed her down in his book--that Ayn Rand guy's ten-minute skim through of his book hardly qualified him to compare it to Coulter's trash.

FWIW, Jonah Goldberg on the Franken Flap:

Yes, it's true that if Rush Limbaugh had tackled a protester, Al Franken in particular and the media in general, would make a huge stink about it. We'd see the protester on the Today Show talking about the "fascist" tendencies of the American right with Katie Couric nodding along. So, Franken's a hypocrite and the media has a double-standard. Big news there.

But generally speaking I don't have that big a problem with what he did. Larouchies are crazies and who knows what kind of vibe the guy was giving off at the time.

What does trouble me is that Franken's Johnny-on-the-spot take down demonstrates a martial acumen no one had suspected. Maybe Rich Lowry should be worried?

And Rich Lowry's Questions for Franken:

1. Was this not a preemptive strike?

2. Isn’t it true, that the heckler did not pose an imminent threat to Dr. Dean?

3. The heckler was taunting, using language as a weapon, with no WMD evident.

4. Franken should have consulted the ACLU, Al Sharpton, Peter Jennings, and developed a multilateral consensus before attacking!

5. Isn’t this shocking, Franken behavior reminiscent of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, and Gore Vidal?

6. Why couldn’t Franken give diplomacy a chance? Franken did not exhaust all avenues of diplomacy before his unilateral militaristic attack!

7. On what evidence, did Franken declare this heckler an illegal combatant?

8. This is not the first unlawful attack by Franken and friends. It follows unprovoked attacks on Kosovo, Somalia, Rick Lowry, and others.”

Al Franken is a big fat lying hypocrite:

Comedian apologizes to Ashcroft for "imprudent attempt at satire"

Franken's missive, written on letterhead from Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government, claimed that he had already received abstinence stories from other prominent Republicans, including Condoleezza Rice and Senator Rick Santorum. However, in his July 11 apology, Franken admitted that he had not received those abstinence stories and called his solicitation to Ashcroft, "an imprudent attempt at satire."

The comedian also apologized for writing on Harvard letterhead: "My biggest regret is sending the letter on Shorenstein Center stationery. I can assure you that no one at the Shorenstein Center had knowledge of the letter before I sent it." Franken, who was a fellow at the Kennedy School this spring, added, "I am very embarrassed to have put them in this awkward and difficult position, and I ask you not to hold this against the Center, the Kennedy School, or Harvard in general."

Anybody remember his blazingly funny LateLine? What a piece of crap that was.

#119 Jamie-where did Ann Coulter say anything like that about Jews? Do you have a link, or are you making that up?

Jamie,

i knew Coulter had made an offensive remark about Jews but I couldn't remember what it was.

Anti-semitism really does unite the extremists nuts doesn't it?

Heya all,

Didn't read all the comments yet so you probably have already covered this but here's a few ideas:

1) Yeah, I bet it was staged (I saw several blogs this morning suggesting this).

2) Or, the LaRouche supporter is just known to the police as a major disturbance (entirely possible since they are), and so it was just settled "amicably" and everyone was just told to "cool down" and "go on their way" - which also does happen at times.

3) Hey, it was a LaRouche supporter. I mean honestly.... Don't get me wrong, I think Al Franken is definitely on the wrong side of the debate most times, but come on...a LaRouche supporter. Kudos to Al on that one. :) They're like flies, you know. They infest. They're all over Haight street arguing with the hippies not to vote "Green" and to vote LaRouche instead. Not that I care - they're both insane. But the problem is that they spill over into decent neighborhoods as well and you just can't stamp'em out!

Personally, I'd have just punched the guy in the face and then kicked him in the groin for good measure. If you blow them up, each piece reforms itself into a new supporter, so you can't do that. I've had ghastly times trying to clean up after that particular tactic.

I'll have to cover that in the next installment of my Hippie Hunting Guide. They fall into the same general category and it'll be a good lesson to go by for others when they work up to that level. :)

Oh and, good morning everyone. :)

It was noted in David Brock's (remember the guy who wrote, "The Real Anita Hill") last book. She apparently told Brock that she wanted to leave her New York law firm "to get away from all these Jews".

On her ill-fated appearance on Phil Donahue's failed comeback, she had the following exchange where she pointedly avoided discussing it:

DONAHUE: Right. We will talk about the book. But you take some heavy incoming from Brock's book, which I'm sure you read.

COULTER: I did not read it. I don't know anyone who read it.

DONAHUE: Let me just tell you. He accuses you, among other things, of being an anti-Semite.

COULTER: Maybe that will help me with the Muslims.

DONAHUE: He says that you left New York because you wanted to get away from all these Jews. Did you say that?

COULTER: I find this very interesting, that I write a book saying liberals won't argue about things, instead what they do is call conservatives names. And I come on your show and all you're doing is calling me names.

([Link: www.dittohead.org...]

Gordon (#109)

Maybe lock him up with Ann Coulter in a padded room with a double bed...

Good idea, they're welcome to each other, and that way the rest of the population remains unharmed.

#123 Mar,

It really does unite the crazies. That's why I hold Georgie Anne Geyer and Pat Buchanan in at least as much contempt as Ted Rall and Michael Moore.

As has already been pointed out.

He tackled the guy to protect Dean's free speech? Where was the heckler's free speech?
If held on private property, asking the heckler to leave and having security non-violently remove him is what should have been done.
If that was not possible, then calling the police to have the heckler removed is what should have been done. None of this "I didn't like what he was shouting, so I tackled him."

Of course, you'll never get someone like Gordon to admit this.

Don't forget Franken used to be a big Clinton fan; maybe he thought the LaRouchie was hot, and took Bubba's advice: " If you're after somebody's body, just knock 'em down and jump on 'em!"

Re: Ann Coulter-does anyone else know anything about this? I've always found her columns, and her book amusing. I would be pretty upset if she made a comment about getting away from the Jews. Did she ever deny making the comment, or did she just avoid talking about it?

I also didn't know that she was dropped from NRO.

#127 Jamie

In the link to the Donahue interview, did you see:

COULTER: This book has been quite discredited. I thought we were going to talk about my book.

#131 RadioMattN,

Yes, I did see where Ann Coulter decided that a book that accused her of being an anti-Semite "has been quite discredited". So what? She still ducked the opportunity to deny it. That a barking moonbat would consider somethign "discredited" means little, IMO.

“I’m neutral in this race but I’m for freedom of speech, which means people should be able to assemble and speak without being shouted down.”

Unless of course the speaker is a conservative, like Jeane Kirkpatrick, who was shouted down by free-speech loving lefties when attempting to give a talk at Berkeley in the early 80s.

RadiaMM

According to Coulter the book was discredited. Her reply really was a non-answer so beloved by lawyers everywhere.

If she hadn't made the comment she would have flat out denied it. I sure would if I was accused of being an anti-Semite.

Oh a few more things about Franken:

I still think that he's on the wrong side altogether (believe me I do, and anyone who reads my stuff will know that without question), but I recently heard two interviews which made me think a little better of him.

The first was on Pacifica Radio (which I listen to at times to understand what the enemy is thinking). He was discussing with them about his book, etc... but then the two interviewers pressed him on why he didn't talk about Israel. And you could tell that they wanted something out of him, some sort of condemnation. You could also hear Franken get very uncomfortable with trying to answer when finally he blurted out something to the effect of "Well, the reason I don't talk about it is because I'm a firm believer in Israel's right to exist and defend itself." He said that he hated the Sharon government but that Arafat was the cause of it from Camp David, and that Israel had a right to defend themselves against suicide bombers and that it was a war and that Israel shouldn't be eliminated, etc.... Something that Pacifica Radio audiences would be gasping at, believe me. You could tell at that point that the interviewers didn't know what to make of it and sort of just chuckled as if that just was just his opinion, and then they ended the interview there. (Not kidding) Anyway, as much as an LLL as he is, he didn't placate the Pacifica crowd, and I'm glad for it. I know he probably has on thousands of other occasions, but it was nice to hear him just stand up for once and say that he didn't think that Israel's existence was a criminal act.

The second interview I heard, on the same night, was on NPR about his tour for the troops in Iraq. Apparently he's been doing that for a while and I respect him for that, even if he didn't support the war. At least he's supporting the troops in some way, and that's a good thing. But what really struck me was about how he recounted spending one of the Seder nights in Saddam's palace near the airport, in a room alone with a few of the comedians. They apparently lit a menorah and said the blessings and, as he recounted, a big mural was nearby commemorating Saddam's SCUD missile attack on Tel Aviv in the '91 war. He got very serious about that and said that it was nice because it happened to be "a big FU to the guy" (his words, yeah). Obviously were it up to his crowd, that would have never happened, but the fact that he talked about it seriously and even a little emotionally, I respected. Maybe that got to him a bit, I don't know. I know he's wrong 99.99% of the time, but I guess that something deep down inside stirs every now and then and tells him to do something right for a change.

Anyway, because of those two interviews which I recently heard, I have thought a little differently about the guy. Not much, mind you but...it's better than nothing. :)

Granted, I'll find something about him to absolutely rant about soon enough again. :)

Sorry folks, *STILL* waiting to read a link providing authoritative proof that Coulter is anti-semitic.

#127 Jamie

Did you see where she asked Phil if he still beat his wife? Does such a question -- especially from a discredited source -- merit a denial?

Should the President spend his time denying that he was AWOL from the National Guard?

If that is the case, then all one has to do to silence opposing viewpoints is just keep asking such questions. Not only does that keep a person from making his or her points, but it also gives more airtime to the accusation.

#137 RadioMattM,

So by your definition, Coulter calls the book "discredited" and it is therefore so? Perhaps I have higher standards than you, but that seems awfully weak.

If Ann Coulter called me an anti-(insert group of choice) and I was questioned about it on TV, you can be damned sure I'd deny it.

It doesn't really matter if Ann Coulter is anti-semitic or not. If so, it merely adds one more indictment to her already lengthy list of lunacy. She is just about the most odious "mainstream" commentator around, left or right.

Perhaps we should refer to her as "the right's Noam Chomsky." Or perhaps "the right's Michael Moore" would be more appropriate.

109 Gordon:

Better make that twin beds, Franken's been out of the closet for a while.............

All Coulter had to say was, " I did not say I wanted to leave New York because of the Jews." Instead she gave a weasal answer. Why? Probably because she said it.

But as I stated previously, I can't stand the scrawny nut.. I read the transcript and not once did Phil call her a name even though she accused him of calling her names. For her to complain about that would be the kettle calling the pot black anyhow. That seems to be her tactic, get shrill and call names and hope no one notices how badly she is loosing an argument.

Her abortion debates are just ridiculous too. She is fixated on late term abortions even though they constitute a very low % of all abortions. She can't discuss this or anything else rationally and always comes across to me as hysterical.

#139 Gordon:

AuContraire, I find Coulter refreshing in that she refuses to go through the motions of swapping "niceties" with those on the left who obviously despise her.

Her refusal to play the game is a GOOD THING in these duplicitous times.

#141 Mar:

"All Coulter had to say was, " I did not say I wanted to leave New York because of the Jews."

No, she did'nt HAVE to say anything--particularly if she found the question odious and offensive. As another poster pointed out, there are LOTS of people who have decided that "defending" ridiculous charges only serves to perpetuate them, particularly with those who political leanings won't allow them to accept a rebuttal.

Anyone who can't kick Al Franken's ass should not be heckling.

Anne Coulter is more staunchly pro-Israel than most American Jews (more so than all Jews in show biz except for Ron Silver).

#144 Old Timer:

Agreed, except the NY Post article has Franken jumping the guy from behind.............

#142 Flaming Sword,

I find Coulter refreshing in that she'll do anything for free french fries.

;-)

The LLL have no compunction at all with disturbing, heckling or shouting down GOP candidates or conservative spokesman anywhere. Do you really think that the brave Al Franken would violently defend a conservative's First Amendment rights? I don't.

Now, while on the subject of brave Al Franken. In the NY Post article I read on this incident, brave Al Franken is quoted as saying that he came up from behind on his opponent and took him down and, that he, brave Al Franken used to "be a wrestler" and used a "wrestling move". I've had the privilege of seeing my son and his peers wrestle competitively in middle school and throughout high school. It was his idea to pursue that sport, not mine. I knew nothing of it. Over the years though, I have gained complete respect for the athletes that compete in that sport. It is a gueling physical and mental contest between two competitors, with nowhere to hide and no excuses. The daily training, conditioning and discipline that it takes to prepare to compete is unparalleled in terms of rigor. If the Navy SEALS ever need to recruit, they ought to start their search in High School wrestling rooms. So I have nothing but respect for real wrestlers. Anyone here that wrestled or knows well kids that do, knows of what I write.

So now, when brave Al Franken, tells the world that he was a "wrestler" and boasts about how he came up on someone from behind, I know that he is truly a coward and a disgrace to real wrestlers. Real wrestlers face their opponents, shake hands before they wrestle and regardless of outcome, shake hands afterwards. They don't sneak up on each other from behind and then brag of their "victory".

Well I hope that whoever he assaulted sues his hiney into bankruptcy and files criminal charges as well. If a conservative had done this to a liberal agitator, the cops would have him in irons on the spot and he'd be facing federal charges as well -- that's how liberals do things. Expect the double standard rule to apply to the case of brave Al Franken. I doubt brave Al Franken was a serious wrestler. My guess is that the brave Al Franken tried it enough to get packed a few times and then quit.

To hell with Coulter and Franken, two loud-mouthed lightweights.
I'd rather listen to ten minutes of an old Bill Buckley tape than the combined shouting of these two.
It's not the ideology, it's the quality.

LGF is just not working for me today. It's either moving at a crawl or not loading at all.

(#108) me

I wrote:

It's up to the local district attorney to decide whether or not Franken committed a crime worthy of prosecution, and it's up to the local defense bar to determine whether or not there's an actionable claim against him.

I meant to write:

It's up to the local district attorney to decide whether or not Franken committed a crime worthy of prosecution, and it's up to the local PLAINTIFF's bar to determine whether or not there's an actionable claim against him.

Mistakes like that are expected when you're running on nothing but weak coffee and "Joementum."

But keep in mind, all you who are calling for the poor LaRouche-y to sue, that you're flocking up work for the dreaded Trial Lawyers. Too bad this was a Dean rally, rather than an Edwards rally - you'd all fit right in.

KIDDING!!!!!

(#149) zulubaby

Me too. Super slow.

You know what this means don't you? Open season on Al Franken! Every time he opens his big fat mouth is now an opportunity to slam his fat head against the wall. I can't wait to see the jerk cry assult when it happens. I so hope somebody takes him on.

Where's the tolerance here? Why didn't Franken ask him to "sit down" because the LaRouche supporter "had his say" and now it was time for Franken to have his say? What ever happened to civility in politics? Sheesh.

Anyone else think that Dean and Franken would make a successful pair in the WWE? Dean could be Franken's manager. The good Doctor is certainly good at ranting...

what a retard that Franken is, where does he think he's at? A black flag concert...

Hypothetical:

George W. Bush is speaking at a campaign rally in a packed, but small room in Manchester, N.H.

Dennis Miller is there campaigning for him, and entertaining the crowd - which is all there to support their candidate.

In comes some thuggish communists from International A.N.S.W.E.R. to shout down President Bush, and interrupt and disrupt the event, with their typical regard for others opinions.

Miller gets annoyed, because despite attempts by Bush to cut off the protestors, they won't shut up.

So Miller tackles the loudest and most obnoxious International A.N.S.W.E.R. guy.

Is everyone here who's callling for charges and lawsuits to be filed against Franken also going to scream "assault" and "battery" and "Sue Miller!!!!!!" in this hypothetical?

154 SoCalJustice:

Same answer as before--professional campaigns employ professional security. The moment "rule of law" is replaced by "There's 6,000 of us here today and we'll all decide *individually* when we've had enough" will be the day that the right of peaceable assembly will vanish.

By the way, this site is INCREDIBLY slow to load/access and to read comments today.

#154 SoCalJustice

Is everyone here who's callling for charges and lawsuits to be filed against Franken also going to scream "assault" and "battery" and "Sue Miller!!!!!!" in this hypothetical?

I would.

I have tried to speed read the comments and do no believe this comment has been made. In my humble opinion, the most notable fact is Mr. Franken’s choice in confronting what he obviously saw as a threat to free speech. First off he chose violence to address the threat, secondly he chose to attack from the back. I believe most people would refer to these actions as the actions of a cowardly bully. It doesn’t matter what the other man was saying, it doesn’t matter what offense he had committed in Mr. Franken’s mind. The fact is that when presented with an opportunity to resolve what Mr. Franken viewed as threat, his choice was not negotiation, was not coalition building, was not to notify the offending party of imminent attack but his choice was to attack first and attack from behind. These are the true actions of a cowardly bully. Not that I have ever given much weight to the opinions and rantings of Mr. Franken, but anyone who does should now know where he is coming from.

(#155) Flaming Sword/(#156) Reaganite

Well then, I admire both of you for your consistency. I wouldn't call for Miller to be charged or sued in the hypo, and I'm not calling for Franken to be charged or sued in reality.

I don't look at it as someone "taking the law into their own hands." And professional security, if they are merely hired bodyguards, for example, would also be in technical violation of the law if they dealt with rowdy and insistent individuals in the same manner as Franken did.

And Franken is not a threat to the right to peaceably assemble - that only refers to the government (i.e. perhaps the professional security you want to handle the situation, should they be cops) preventing people from assembling peaceably - it has nothing to do with private citizens exerting their will, lawfully or otherwise.

To me, it's not at all even a "free speech" issue. This rally was not intended to be an open forum where raving, lunatic anti-Semites are free to voice their opinion and have a "right to be heard." Similarly, a Bush campaign stop is not an open forum where organized, insistent Stalinists have a right to participate in a free and open exchange of ideas. They came in with the purpose of being unruly, behaved in an unruly manner, and were met in an uruly way. Seems fair to me.

But again, I admire you guys for your consistency.

#158 SoCalJustice
In the past 2 decades I have attended, oh, a bazillion political rallys. Never did I see someone assault someone to stop them from speaking and not get charged.

My oath to America didn't include the phrase "as long as I agree with them".

Is anyone else having problems accessing LGF today?

(#159) reaganite

Charles linked to the NYPost story. Here's the CNN version:

Franken, a comedian and self-described liberal well-known for his attacks on the Bush administration and conservative-leaning media, helped carry out one of the disrupters. In the process, Franken's glasses were knocked off his face and broke in two.

Now, that's probably just CNN whitewashing.

But here's what took place at Lieberman rally yesterday:

Late Monday, two men and one woman identified as supporters of perennial Democratic presidential candidate Lyndon Larouche were forcibly removed by local security and campaign staff after they disrupted Lieberman's final stop of the night, at Milly's Tavern in Manchester, with screaming.

They also disrupted an Edwards rally last week.

They've been asking for it.

If the authorities want to charge Franken, or the LaRouche scumbag wants to sue, nobody's stopping them.

SoCalJustice (#161)

What are these people, professional hecklers?

#161 SoCalJustice

“I got down low and took his legs out,” said Franken afterwards.

Not that I agree with the LaRouche scumbags point of view. But I always will agree with their right to screech it.

If I clotheslined you because you were saying something I didn't like what would it be called?

(#162) zulubaby

What are these people, professional hecklers?

No, they're conspiracy theorists and viruent anti-Semites, and probably unpaid "volunteers" who are trying to disrupt and usurp other candidate's rallies, because otherwise no one would be paying attention to them. They are trying to get publicity, and are looking for confrontations. Unfortunately, Franken snapped and gave them exactly what they wanted.

(#163) reaganite

Not that I agree with the LaRouche scumbags point of view. But I always will agree with their right to screech it.

I don't agree with their right to screech it anytime, anyplace and in any manner - and neither does the Supreme Court. Free speech is not absolute.

If I clotheslined you because you were saying something I didn't like what would it be called?

That's too simplistic a scenario. This was not a matter of the LaRouchites merely "saying something that Franken or Dean didn't like."

It's a matter of the LaRouchites screaming down the proceedings and purposefully trying to disrupt the event, in an entirely hostile manner.

I'm all for their forcible removal. If a citizen beats the "authorities" or "professional security" to the punch, so to speak, I don't have that much of a problem with it. It's not like he beat the guy to a bloody pulp. He knocked the guy down to facilitate in his forcible removal.

Again, let the cops arrest him if they have a problem with it, and let the LaRouche-y sue him.

Suppose a David Duke supporter was shouting Bush down and a well-known conservative pundit - say, Bill O'Reilly - manhandled the guy and forced him to shut up. Would lgf'ers be crying foul?

It sounds like the Laroucher's actions could be described as causing a disturbance, which in Canada is a Criminal Code charge.

Don't know if there is anything similar in the US.

Would lgf'ers be crying foul?

Personally I'd applaud anyone who beat the crap out of David Duke.

#164 SoCalJustice
You're mincing words. The SC said to the effect that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected. Yelling "Dean is an asshole" is.

#165 sea bass
Read the thread and ask your question again.

SoCalJustice:

Hey, I hope you don't think I'm trying to "Bigel" this point to death (*laughs*--no offense Bigel), but I just wanted you to understand that I DESPISE heckling of that nature--even at a Democratic party gathering. Nevertheless, I just think it sets a dangerous precedent if the *next* crowd that attends such a meeting "learns" the wrong "lesson" from this--that ANYONE can take matters into their own hands if somebody in the audience makes a rude remark.

Once that becomes a "societal norm", we'll have no choice but to leave the women and children at home when meeting to discuss politics--and that's not how advanced societies do things.

Sure, it doesn't hurt that I hate Franken, but despite any kneejerk snickering I might do were Dennis Miller to physically take out a LLL, in my heart of hearts I would know that he was wrong to do so if the LLL made no show of physical force.

(#165) seabass

Would lgf'ers be crying foul?

Some would, some wouldn't.

I wouldn't, just like I'm not now. The opinion of this thread, like many others, is split.

Heckling denies me my right to hear what the speaker is saying. It's also rude. It's the tactic of those who can't refute what the speaker is saying because they don't know how to form a coherent thought.

Besides, I'd like to know what somebody like Dean is saying so I'll have a good reason not to vote for him. (Like I need more reasons)

The moonbat provoked Franken, the moonbat got what he deserved.

Were it me in the same situation? I'd lecture the ass. I'm professionally trained (mom taught college.:)). Give me half an hour and the twerp would be begging for a beating.[eg]

(#168) reaganite

You're mincing words. The SC said to the effect that yelling "fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected. Yelling "Dean is an asshole" is.

Actually, I'm not. You're describing one case (Schenk v. U.S.) that's not very applicable to this situation, and it's not the only First Amendment case on the books. But you're second example is applicable, and very likely might be unprotected speech - famously so in New Hampshire. And even so, again you're minimizing the circumstances because it's very doubtful that all that happened was some LaRouche-y just yelling "Dean is an asshole."

The Supreme Court also said that states, and the federal government, can limit speech further than just yelling "fire in a crowded theater," in Chaplinksy v. New Hampshire (and other cases too):

That part of c. 378, § 2, of the Public Laws of New Hampshire which forbids under penalty that any person shall address "any offensive, derisive or annoying word to any other person who is lawfully in any street or other public place," or "call him by any offensive or derisive name," was construed by the Supreme Court of the State, in this case and before this case arose, as limited to the use in a public place of words directly tending to cause a breach of the peace by provoking the person addressed to acts of violence.

The LaRouche-y was in violation of part c. 378, § 2, of the Public Laws of New Hampshire, upheld as constitutional in 1919 by the Chaplinsky decision - and he can be arrested for breaking the law too, by merely engaging in unprotected speech under New Hampshire law.

(#169) Flaming Sword

All fair points. You and reaganite are both being amazingly consistent.

My questions were more directed to those, and there are likely a lot of us, to whom these issues wouldn't even come to mind if the shoe was on the other foot, and Dennis Miller, for example, was clocking an unruly and obnoxious Stalinist from International A.N.S.W.E.R. who came to a Bush event just to ruin it.

No doubt that Miller's (hypothetical) action would be met with a lot of applause. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I'm not so sure.

But I see where you're coming from, and you and reaganite both make a lot of sense.

Nevertheless, I just think it sets a dangerous precedent if the *next* crowd that attends such a meeting "learns" the wrong "lesson" from this--that ANYONE can take matters into their own hands if somebody in the audience makes a rude remark.

Fair also, but I don't think the LaRouchies go to opponents' events merely to make rude remarks, and that's not all they do. They try and disrupt the event in a sick and twisted, pathetic attempt to gain attention. It's not like they're after a free and open exchange of ideas and merely to have the chance to debate the issues with a particular candidate, and these are campaign rallies they are disrupting, and not debates. They go to ruin the events, or to try to ruin them anyway.

My sympathy for them runs extremely low.

This is not being carried in any of the liberal media except for "People" magazine. Isn't he a fairly major figure, with his books, and now to be launched FrankenMegaHertz media empire?

#102 Thom, your memory is just fine. I thought you would be interested in the link.

I doubt that any of the regular posters here have any affection or sympathy for Lyndon Larouche or his manaical loud mouthed minions. The point here is that Franken responded to Larouchie vulgarities with violence. He could have handled the situation completely differently and had the disruptive idiot peaceably ejected from the room.

Stupid bounce technique. That's a pretty good way to die. When you work bounce (I know some dudes who have done it in much rougher places than a Dean rally :-), you never work alone.

I could go on, but what's the point? Franken committed a misdemeanor violent crime.

He's a Democrat.

It's not like he drowned a chick, or strangled her, or lied under oath, or sold pardons, or raped some woman, or ran gay prostitutes, or is serving time for taking bribes, or sexually abused minors, or smoked crack, or claimed the "bitch set me up...", or...

Hell, as Democrats go, Franken ain't so bad.

He's still a lousy bouncer, though.

[Dark, Malevolent laughter]

(#175) scooter

He could have, but the fact is, none of us know what the situation in the room looked like, or how exactly how rough Franken was. His own account is more "violent" then other published reports - he could be talking it up to appear tough. He has been challenging people to fights lately, after all. But until we see what happened, it's hard to judge.

I would love to see video of it. All these rallies should have at least one video camera. I wonder if it will ever turn up. I searched C-Span's website, and couldn't find it.

If the Larouche-y sues, or the district attorney presses charges, it might come out of the woodwork.

(#176) Iron Fist

Classic post. lol.

Sometimes, you gotta knock heads!

In 1976, I attended the national convention of YoOung Democrats in a delegation dominated by the Young People's Socialist League -- ironically, the most effective anti-communist organization I ever saw and breeding ground of the Neo-Conserviative movement.

At one point in the festivities, just after Jimmuh Cartah spoke, a well known liberal raised his fist at me (he was joking, ironically) -- and the entire California delegation rushed the guy and pinned him flat against a wall.

I wasn't a YPSL, but they told me afterward -- "Anyone messes with one of us or our friends -- we all go in."

It was a hard lesson learned from decades fighting communists and other nasties, and I say -- Al Franken gets a pass from me for this one.

But perhaps he just should have called security first.

This may be a dead thread, but there is another side to the story
[Link: alfrankenweb.com...]

Franken Subdued the Attacker Only After He was Attacked. Al Franken was with the security guards trying to help get the heckler out of the room. However, it was only after the heckler physically attacked Franken and broke his glasses that Franken resorted to a wrestling move intended to subdue the attacker:

#140:

not that it should matter, but franken's married with kids, i believe.

#180 classic liberal:

Not that it should matter, but you're wrong.

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

And if the situation was reversed and Franken was the one who got jumped, it would be a "Hate Crime". That was why I inserted Franken's sexual preference into the conversation.

(#181) andthenblammo!

From the link you posted:

Wauchula, Florida: I think a Gore-Frank ticket would have been interesting. Any comments?

Al Franken: A gay Jew might have been one bridge too far.

The questioner was talking about Barney Frank, a Congressman from Massachusetts, who is gay, not about Al Franken, who is not.

way to go "andthenblammo!"

although i could've guessed from you're name that you were only semi-literate with zero-eye for subtlety

Whattamensch:
"While a second grader, Franken watched in horror as a group of girl classmates performed a silly, second grade skit. Seizing the moment, Franken teamed with his boy classmates and wrote a skit mocking the girls. It left his female classmates in tears."
[Link: www.alfrankenweb.com...]

mar #106 - "In one of her last columns in The National Post she had some weird theory that Dean was destroyed by the US media at the behest of the Democratic party establishment."
Many others have posited similar theories, including Dick Morris in his current article:
"What happened to Howard Dean? He was assassinated by Bill and Hillary with the assistance of Chris Lehane, the political hit man who first worked for Kerry and now backs Clark.
Desperate to keep control of the Democratic Party, the Clintons used their negative researchers and detectives to the ultimate and generated a story-a-day savaging Dean... The left (who had made Dean their darling) embraced Kerry (the original leftist) as their nominee."
[Link: nypost.com...]

This column from Coulter doesn't sound like anti-semitism to me:
"The Democrats' urge to assert a Jewish heritage is designed to disguise the fact that the Democrats would allow the state of Israel to perish as Palestinian suicide bombers slaughter Jewish women and children."
[Link: www.townhall.com...]

FYI

Larouche makes the hitler comparison

182 SoCalJustice:

Oops, my error; I was relying on the ol' memory for reading about Franken stating his preference, and I was wrong; tossed up the first Google reference that seemed germane, and generally screwed up. Sorry, Al.

183 classicliberal:

That would be "your", not "you're", and "a zero eye for subtlety". Semi-literate, indeed.

(#185) zenbone

Ahh, I thought LaRouche had finally come out of the closet to admit that he is, in fact, just like Hitler. The only difference is that he has no power and is a complete joke.

Too bad.

(#186) andthenblammo!

No worries - an easy mistake from the way that webchat article was set up. They didn't mention Frank's first name, or allude to the fact that he was a Congressman from Massachusetts. It does look like it could be just a spelling error where they lopped off the "en" from Franken.

Totally off-topic ... Howard Dean is on the cover of the lastest issue of Rolling Stone. I wish they'd stick to featuring musicians. Actually, I just remembered that there's a long article about Howard Dean in the January issue of Vogue too. I can't get away from him!

#188 zulubaby:

-If Dean gets any more out of control, he might start trashing motel rooms and destroying the PA systems on stage; then he can become an honorary member of The Who, and DESERVE to be on the cover of Rolling Stone.

andthenblammo! (#189)

He doesn't have the right hair to be a rock star. Besides, he's a metrosexual and likes Wyclef Jean.

#190 zulubaby:

You're right, a metrosexual rock star doesn't trash motel rooms, he moves the furniture for better feng shui, picks out new upholstery fabrics, and does SOMETHING about those tacky wall colors!

andthenblammo! (#191)

LOL! I can just see Dean rearranging the furniture and smudging to clear the energy. Actually, I think he's way overdue for a smudging anyway.

#192 zulubaby:

Hey, back in the '70s, my friends and I used to do a LOT of smudging. We were considerate and frugal, however, and confined the "herb" smoke to little glass pipes half full of water.............

andthenblammo! (#193)

But did you inhale?

#194 zulubaby:

With vigah, Ah reegret to reeport.

andthenblammo! (#195)

I hope you're biting your lip while saying that or it just won't be believable.

#186:

well, at least you're improving. next up, an eye for irony.

andthenblammo!, I think you have your very own personal troll. You've arrived, baby!

#198 zulubaby:

Thank you! Thank you! I'd like to thank the Academy, my parents, and all of you for this honor! My own little troll! And I'll always treasure this cute little statue, made of fool's gold and unobtanium!

andthenblammo! (#199)

Remember to take deep breaths and you should be fine. And yes, I had to look up unobtanium :-)

so now i am a troll for correcting a point of fact?

give me a break.

Thanks for your post Cuchullain. I noticed no one has commented yet. Maybe no one here is interested in a ballanced look at the news.

I got a couple of moves that a former U.S. Marine showed me. 'Al, you fat f**k, I would break you down like a M-16.

The heckler shouldn't have heckled, a group of people should have escorted him out, Franken shouldn't have confronted him alone, or with violence. Larouch-ites are nuts, but I don't believe in physically attacking nuts, unless they are violent. It doesn't matter the circumstances. I have been on the left & the right in my life, so I can see where people are coming from. Hecklers are a fact of life in politics, as in comedy. There has to be a plan in place to deal with these things, they are going to happen.

Larouch followers heckle whenever they can, and have been doing so for years.