That's sickening.

Oh look! An evil worthless piece of human excrement.

And Yasser Arafat too.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Can no one rid me of this troublesome priest?

Hey Ho....let us not question religion, or religious leaders.

They are all puppy dogs and flowers perfect!!!

Yeah sure.

Where's Gimli, Son of Gloin, and his axe when you need it? He could put it to good use with this Arab terrorist and this terror enabler.

#32603, nice!
I just did a Google for "bethlehem 2000" to see what I could learn about this "award". Google said to me,

Show map of Bethlehem PA on Yahoo! Maps - MapQuest

Oh, I was furious! It's Bethlehem, Israel, not Palestinian Authority, you assholes!
Then I clicked the links to see if both Yahoo! Maps and MapQuest would call it Palestinian Authority instead of Israel.
Both had a map of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Be right there, soon as I finish with these orcs.

Whack!

Seventy-three...

b, shut up! Do you have nothing to say except, "fuck religion"? You're the bigel or Yair of religion now. Christ!

#7 evariste:Abu What's My Lizardoid Minion Number?

Heh.

Oh, and it should be on the back of your official minion badge.

OT

The U.S. military is "sure" it will catch Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) this year, perhaps within months, a spokesman declared Thursday, but Pakistan said it would not allow American troops to cross the border in search of the al-Qaida leader.

More bullshit from the bureaucracy

Come on boys! Let's get it done!

Was the Church of England in need of a whiff of un-holyness recently?

Interesting past winners of the award

[Link: www.p-p-o.com...]

#9

fuck religion!

yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying.

But to generalize, I don't want to leave out supernaturalism, or mysticism, or irrationalism.

You gotta a problem with that buddy?

Ironically, Williams says that he's in favor of ordaining openly homosexual priests.

Naturally, if Williams walked outside of Arafat's hole and told his views to some Peaceful Muslims, they would murder him and drag his corpse through the street.

I got a problem with your distorting the opinions of other lgfers while hijacking every thread to proselytize atheism and promote religious intolerance. Fine, we get it. You don't like religion. Great. You've made that amply clear, a couple of people who agree with you made it amply clear, the rest of us made it amply clear that we disagree. Why are you still taking up space with this?

Hey Ho....let us not question religion, or religious leaders.
They are all puppy dogs and flowers perfect!!!
Yeah sure.

That's not what even the most ridiculous people that quibble with your views were saying.

fuck religion!
yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying.
But to generalize, I don't want to leave out supernaturalism, or mysticism, or irrationalism.
You gotta a problem with that buddy?

Don't be a disingenuous ass, I'm not your buddy and I never will be. I've got a problem with your intolerance, your shallowness, your ignorance and your making thoughtful atheists like me look bad with your incessant screeching, as well as your ridiculous harping on the same theme.

This kinda caught me off guard. I don't know what to think about it. It's not the typical rhetoric you hear from the family of a suicide bomber. I don't know, it just struck me as kind of odd. I absolutely hesitate to say that the palestinians are victims, but, certainly a segment of their population suffers at the hands of these fucking thugs/the preminent ideology. Anyway here it is.

---In the refugee camp of Aida, on the outskirts of Bethlehem, the bomber's distraught parents said he was a quiet and devout Muslim who showed little interest in politics. Jaara left a note saying he was avenging those killed in Gaza a day before.

Jaara's father, Munir, said his son was the only breadwinner in a family of 11, and had been hoping to start a family. "I was expecting to marry him, not to bury him," the father said.

Jaara's mother sat on a mattress on the floor, crying. She carried a picture of her son in a police uniform with his police-issue assault rifle.

The Palestinian attacks are "really bad for us. They only hurt us," said his 26-year-old sister, Ola.---

story.news.yahoo.com...]>

I will never understand the mentality of shoveling more dirt on your own grave.

One of Arafat's own cops no less.
Speechless....

That man is a complete and utter fool; I've just renounced my C of E affiliation and I intend to write that fool and tell him why. A$$HAT!!!

#16

Look chief!

I'm not trying to trick anyone!

The fucking religious muslims are getting kids to blow themselves up!

Do you get this you dumb shit?

Look buddy! Religion has transformed itself into death personified!

Can you fucking wake up and smell the dead bodies!

Bravo, Elizabeth!
Do you have a new denomination in mind? Just curious, feel free to tell me to mind my own.

I'm not talking to you any more, b. I won't be sorry to see you go, either. I hope you get banned soon, because you certainly aren't contributing any more.

Rev. Mom aka The Church lady met the Arch Bishop a while back. She said she was not impressed but wouldn't expand on that. She was also Desmond Tutu's driver for a day and said he was a collassal jack-ass. However, when I pressed her for more dirt, she wouldn't give it to me.

aaaarrrgggghhh! This infuriates me.

b, I'm an atheist, but I have a lot of friends that are devout Christians. Look, I could give a fuck less about what anyone's religion is so long as they don't intrude upon my personal freedom, or cause harm to me or anyone else for that matter (under the religious banner). To say 'fuck religion' is the same as saying fuck almost everyone we know. I don't seem to have a problem with religious people, so long as they are cool with me, and don't try to change my mind, through violence or any other means. This proposition is a central tenant of what makes America as grand as it is. Let's try to focus on the real problem, instead of blanketing it under all religions.

#21

I'm not talking to you any more, b. I won't be sorry to see you go, either. I hope you get banned soon, because you certainly aren't contributing any more.

OK, fine you don't want to talk to me.

But somebody, somewhere has to bore in on this and keep it up. Until this is washed out, until these idiot parasites and power mongers give it up.

What's happening in the name of religion is very wrong.

Religion to most people means 'morality', and it has been hijacked by a bunch of murderous thugs.
And I say 'fuck' them.

And fuck you too for fighting me! You stupid bastard.

#evariste Abu: What's my Lizardoid Number? (there is such a thing?)

No I have no alternative in mind. Did you have a suggestion? I'm not too bothered if I don't go; I mainly went for the pageantry and the music (used to sing alto in the choir). But ever since this clown came on board this year I've been cringing every time he opens his mouth and this just tore it! He's completely vainglorius and a pedant, two things I can't abide.

didn't dean leave the episcopalians over a bikepath dispute?

Well the episco-anglican folk have had their fair share of nuts over the years but the episco church I attend when I visit my dad says a prayer for Israel and how it is for the Jews which is straight out the King James Bible. This particular archbishop is a lefty dirtbag idiot. Thankfuly he doesn't have much power.

Regards,

Jonathan

A total disgrace. The Church of England seems to be self-destructing.

Come on folks.

Stand up! With nothing, except your body, your mind and your existence.

Stand naked before the universe.
Proud and alone as individuals.
With nothing more than your choices and your puny flesh.

Do it, and be proud!

Because that's all you really have anyway!

(OK, I'll shut up. I know you hate me. I've always known it.)

b, for all that you have to say, you are not proving to be enlightening or amusing in more than a most superficial way. Why do you think that is?

Poor Michael Moore... looks like he's gonna lose the 2004 Fiskie, too!

You gotta hand it to the Archbishop, he's getting an early start!

*retch*

(By the way, Israel has apparently begun some sort of operation in Bethlehem.)

#4,

Touche.

(Pardon my French.)

Elizabeth, as an atheist I'm not extra-familiar with all the denominations of Christianity. That's my disclaimer, now I'll feel free to suggest people who've impressed me etc.
Donald Sensing is amazing, he belongs to the United Methodist Church. He's a pastor in Tennessee. His blogging is largely war/politics related; he was an artilleryman in the Army and that experience informs a lot of his writings. About a third of it is religion-related, but it can sometimes be a few days between religious postings. If you're more interested in learning his religious views and how he feels his church expresses Christianity, you can read some of his sermons on his church's website; they're quite good!
Real Live Preacher is amazing. That link is his Salon blog. I get the feeling he's rather liberal compared to the average lgfer but his understanding of his faith and his role in it are really touching and amazing. He's part of a small church/home church/radically Christian/unchurched movement, it bears similarities to the homeschooling/self-schooling movement and other decentralizing rural American social phenomena, and the people who are into that kind of church tend to feel a repulsion for the institutional, wholesale big box sort of church. They believe basically that they are just as qualified as anyone to share in the sacrament of the body of Christ, and they do so with enthusiasm and aplomb, as well as with a genuineness that is lacking in a lot of more sterile institutionalized Christianity. His church is in Texas but he shies away from revealing too much about it. Start off by reading his Stories from the bottom up, you'll laugh and cry a lot. This atheist certainly did. Stay for the blog because you'll really care about him by the time you've read him a little.
And finally, I would suggest "shopping around" and enjoying your freedom to do so since you aren't necessarily a regular churchgoer anyway; who knows, by the time you're about ready to settle back into a church, a new Anglican communion may have splintered off from the CoE in protest of gay ordination and the like, and you may feel comfortable with the more robust, living faith of a majority-African Anglican church than with the withering Church of England-dominated form.
I hope I am not presumptuous.

Although this photo makes me want to puke, it does look like Arafart is ever closer to giving Zulubaby her wish already! Ok, it's our wish.

#28 b:

Okay, I'm proud and naked; now can I put on some clothes, please? :D

Here is some more on the esteemed Archbishop

The archbishop has also criticised Western policy since 11 September, describing the military action in Afghanistan as "morally tainted", and the bombing campaign as morally equivalent to the terrorism it sought to defeat.

Dr Williams has some heavyweight support, notably the endorsement of the former archbishop of Cape Town, Desmond Tutu.

Interesting, he doesn't sound off on, hmm, let's see, BUS BOMBINGS!!!

ve

#24 b

Everyone here (except the occasional troll) understands the threat of militant Islam.

However, we do not face any such threat from Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Shinto or Hinduism.

Nor are these belief systems without value. They might be based on an axiom which is factually false, but the cultural value of Judaism and Christianity in particular should never be forgotten.

So put a sock in it. You won't convince anyone with your ranting; you just make yourself appear foolish and intolerant.

Let me second the recommendation for Real Live Preacher. As a Jew I don't feel at ease in most churches, but I feel like I could go worship with RLP's congregation and be very comfy.

Elizabeth, as if you had to ask. Come on over to the chosen.

Sorry to go OT but has anyone seen this on Drudge. Talk about your smoking gun.

Jan. 29 — ABCNEWS has obtained an extraordinary list that contains the names of prominent people around the world who supported Saddam Hussein's regime and were given oil contracts as a result.

The son of the Syrian defense minister received 6 million barrels, according to the document, worth about $3 million.

George Galloway, a British member of Parliament, was also on the list to receive 19 million barrels of oil, a $90.5 million profit. A vocal critic of the Iraq war, Galloway denied any involvement to ABCNEWS earlier this year.

"I've never seen a bottle of oil, owned one or bought one," Galloway said in a previous interview with ABCNEWS.
According to the document, France was the second-largest beneficiary, with tens of millions of barrels awarded to Patrick Maugein, a close political associate and financial backer of French President Jacques Chirac.

Maugein, individually and through companies connected to him, received contracts for some 36 million barrels. Chirac's office said it was unaware of Maugein's deals, which Maugein told ABCNEWS are perfectly legal.

The single biggest set of contracts were given to the Russian government and Russian political figures, more than 1.3 billion barrels in all — including 92 million barrels to individual officials in the office of President Vladimir Putin.

Another 1 million barrels were contracted to the Russian ambassador to Baghdad, 137 million barrels of oil were given to the Russian Communist Party, and 5 million barrels were contracted to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Here is a link to the article, with a full list.
Iraqi Oil Bribes

Perhaps the Queen will be pleased that the Archbishop has recieved this award, or might this clown have to wait for the Prince of Wales to acend the throne (unlikely) before he is recognized for this coupe. Does the Archbishop still front as the main man for the Defender of The Faith?

Yehudit-LOL!
Real Live Preacher-atheists and Jews agree, he's great!

#32 evariste: Abu ...blah, blah....:

Many thanks; lots to peruse and think about. I used to go to C of E because I started out in private school and that was the church we had to go to on Sundays; later I just liked the music (Bach, Mozart, etc.) and I sang alto so learned some really complicated pieces like the Messiah and Laude Zion. Beautiful music and restful on Sundays.

Though I wouldn't have left for the triviality of a bike path this wart has really gotten to me and I've had it with his pretensions so I'm outta there!

#33 Queen Esther:

Arafish isn't looking to good, is he? He looks like he has kidney disease (sort of yellow). That's usually a sign that the kidneys are starting to shut down and he's only got a few weeks, if that. Mommydoc could probably tell us more about endings from looking at him but I'd say he looks to be days from expiring. (Hope springs eternal...!)

Elizabeth

I find that some of the African Episcopalian Churches can be rather uplifting. You can still have the the Eucharist, the Litergy and Anglican hymns while enjoying some wonderful gospil in the mix. Some of them tend to be more conservative politically and very Pro-Israel.

Either way, it's good to shop around.

subtitled--unabated evil pinning arrogant moral stupidity--brings to mind voltaire's aphorism"mankind will not be free until the last tyrant was strangled with the entrails of the last priest"--anybody have any candidates?

Here the Archbishop confers with the Devil incarnate. If Jesus saw this he wouldn't stop throwing up.

How can a true Christian receive an award from an arch murderer?

This is a blaspheme. A disgrace to all those who believe in a righteous God. Righteous men do not confer with evil.

This Archbishop is decadent and corrupt. he should be excommunicated and thrown in the gutter. his soul is lost.

"Those who do not punish evil commend it to be done." Leonardo DaVinci.

#43 Ms. Andi:

Many thanks for your concern about my spiritual quest (no sarcasm intended). As you say, I'll enjoy my freedom and drop in here and there for a bit. As I'm a bit irregular as far as attendance goes, I won't be missed and I have the freedom to browse. I have sung for several years so I'm no letting down the side.

Actually, I've always gotten a spiritual lift just by having someone reach out on LGF. It's almost like having someone talk to you and a meeting of the minds on these threads is better than a phone call in my opinion. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll find an African-Anglican church (we have lots of churches in Canada--that's one thing we have plenty of--every denomination you can think of).

Arafat to fruity terrorist enabler...

"Oh, here. Ive spit on your coat as I was cursing the jews and asking Allah for their death. Let me wipe it off. Say, thats nice material. What is that, silk? Say do you think something like this would go with my dish-rag hat? What about explosives, do you think something like that would hide an explosive belt?"

#44, HULUGU. Do you think that it could be arranged for the Archbishop to remain concious while using his intestine as a ligature on Arafats windpipe? Could Arafat be encouraged to run during this procedure?

Ms. Andi:

Sorry! Fingers on wrong syll-ables. Meant to say I HAVEN'T sung for several years so won't be letting anyone down. Choirmasters don't like it when their alto's don't show. Bad form! ;(

OT:

List of those bribed by Saddam:

Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (2 separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million

France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million

Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million

Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million

Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million

Spain
Ali Ballout, Lebanese journalist: 8.8 million

Yugoslavia
The Socialist Party: 22 million
Kostunica's Party: 6 million

Canada
Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of Oilexco: 9.5 million

Italy
Father Benjamin, a French Catholic priest who arranged a meeting between the pope and Tariq Aziz: 4.5 million
Roberto Frimigoni: 24.5 million

United States
Samir Vincent: 7 million
Shakir Alkhalaji: 10.5 million

United Kingdom
George Galloway, member of Parliament: 19 million
Mujaheddin Khalq: 36.5 million

South Africa
Tokyo Saxwale: 4 million

Jordan
Shaker bin Zaid: 6.5 million
The Jordanian Ministry of Energy: 5 million
Fawaz Zureikat: 6 million
Toujan Al Faisal, former member of Parliament: 3 million

Lebanon
The son of President Lahoud: 5.5 million

Egypt
Khaled Abdel Nasser: 16.5 million
Emad Al Galda, businessman and Parliament member: 14 million

Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million

Qatar
Hamad bin Ali Al Thany: 14 million

Libya
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million

Chad
Foreign minister of Chad: 3 million

Brazil
The October 8th Movement: 4.5 million

Myanmar (Burma)
The minister of the Forests of Myanmar: 5 million

Ukraine
The Social Democratic Party: 8.5 million
The Communist Party: 6 million
The Socialist Party: 2 million
The FTD oil company: 2 million

These people should all rot in hell.

Source: [Link: abcnews.go.com...]

This is nothing but ENABLING TERRORISM. This is a POWERFUL and EFFECTIVE stamp of APPROVAL.. and Thats it. I'm not interested in hearing any mealy mouth excuses for this.

Its my opinion that people such as this PERSON are complicit. They have blood, thats my families blood, directly on their hands.

Once of these days ONE of these people representing such Powerful Entities...are gonna be dragged into Court for Murder. It'll be some Jewish/Israeli schlub that just HAD IT. And Ill support him or her.

Thanks for the link, velvetelvis. I posted a summary above.

Further along on this thread's topic - this is a disgusting picture. I'm a practicing Catholic, and things like this make me sick. All of Christianity is diminished when some asshat does something stupid like this. In the list I posted above, the Russian Orthodox Church, and a Catholic priest, were among those who accepted bribes from Saddam. As I'm well aware, just because one is an ordained member of a church doesn't make them above sin and the lusts of humanity.

And like I said, they should rot in hell.

@32 evariste my blog son

Have you poked around in any of that preachers listed friends?
How about this one...it's really a kewl site. :)

[Link: blogs.salon.com...]
I really like its name
Fried Green Al-Qaedas *lol

Elizabeth.
You come on down to Texas, and I'll introduce you to my little country church. The majority are farm and ranch people. Which means lots and lots of horses. :)
A bare to the bones building meant to have room for folks to congregate to hear the message that just pours from the messengers' mouth. It.Is.Awesome!

#46, #49 Elizabeth

You're welcome. Yeah, there is a wonderful community here.

Good luck in your Church shopping.

#32 evariste: Lizardoid Minion number??

I'm intrigued that, as a self-described atheist, you are so moved by the Real Live Preacher and Donald Sensing that you're recommending them to others! Maybe you can sense the unconditional love of God which emanates through these people.

Just focusing on one of the links, as a believer in Jesus who has recently left our church after 15 years, I find that the Real Live Preacher makes a lot of sense. Some of what he says is a little startling, but in essence I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he's discovered. The RLP's faith is becoming stronger as he ceases to rely on institutions and his own interpretations of events and allows God to be God.

The all-important thing is to take our eyes off ourselves and our circumstances, and keep them firmly on Jesus. That way our faith will be so firmly rooted that no change of circumstances can shake it. If we're reliant on a minister or a church we're on very shaky ground indeed.

evariste my blog son

You see what you've started? :)
Bless you!

gymnast, Your Al Sharpton promoting is starting to pay off, Moby's on board!

and that is that al sharpton is the democratic candidate who would, in many ways, be the best nominee....
have you heard him speak?
he's bright and personable and aware and informed and all of the things that we want all of the other candidates to be.
when al sharpton speaks you feel as if you're listening to a human being and not a political robot.

evariste

Thanks for the RLP links. He's wonderful.

Elizabeth

This is addressed to you only (others please forgive me and pass over my comments!). Just go to the Lord in prayer and ask Him where He would have you go. He may want to take you aside for a while, just learning from Him and resting in Him. In His perfect timing He will direct your path. Trust Him and believe that He has taken you out of that apostate church and has a better plan for you!

#38 Fay:

Many thanks, Fay. I've bookmarked the link. Always wanted to know more but thought you had to have a special visa to go. Still, stranger things have happened. :-)

#53 quark 2:

That sounds colorful! I can see it now; ride the dusty trail to church on your horse, hitch up outside a clapboard church and good sermon and singing when you get there. Bet you have some great church suppers too!

Thanks everyone. What a great thread! I felt so repulsed when I saw that picture and now I'm laughing. And if I get down I can go into one of my bookmarked sermons and get a quickie spiritual refresher!

#18

That man is a complete and utter fool; I've just renounced my C of E affiliation and I intend to write that fool and tell him why. A$$HAT!!!

I'm right there with you on this.

What an utter disgrace and waste of oxygen. Both of them.

Is this OT?

[Link: www.haaretzdaily.com...]

Last Update: 30/01/2004 08:57
Security Council fails to agree on condemning attack
By The Associated Press

UNITED NATIONS - Security Council diplomats failed to agree on a press statement condemning Thursday's suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem, which Israel called "outrageous."

@60 Elizabeth

Every Sunday after church most of us head on over to the preachers home. His wife always has a good home cooked meal ready for us. All of her vegetables come from her garden. If we have chicken, it's one of hers, usually the ham is one they have butchred. And the beef is usually off of one of their steers. Couldn't ask for a better way to spend Sunday. :)

Bush resets political sights

MERRIMACK, N.H. -- Facing a new Democratic front-runner in John Kerry, President Bush's re-election campaign is quietly shifting gears, preparing for the possibility it will confront the Massachusetts senator and war hero.

War hero?! WTF. John Jerry was a war hero? Talk about spin.

In honor of presidential hopeless frontrunner Sen. J. Kerry, here are his type of war heros

[Link: www.memri.org...]

January 30, 2004 No.651

Conflicting Arab Press Reactions to the Gaza Suicide Bombing

The Arab and Muslim debate over supporting suicide bombings has continued in 2004. This week, Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, the Deputy Chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research, stressed the need to differentiate between martyrdom, which is encouraged, and suicide, which is forbidden, saying, " I call on every Palestinian not to hesitate in carrying out such operations ." [1] The January 14, 2004 suicide bombing at the Erez crossing on the Israel-Gaza border that was carried out by female bomber and mother of two young children Reem Saleh Al-Riyashi drew conflicting reactions from Arab media and scholars. The following are excerpts of reactions from throughout the Arab world:

Egyptian Government Papers Praise Attack, Criticize U.S.

Did you expect anything else? They're both child molesters & into beastiality. Probably exchanged farm animals as gifts.

Speaking of houses of worship, this is a good article about the Thomas Friedman Village Voice flap.

#7 evariste:Abu What's My Lizardoid Minion Number? 1/29/2004 09:13PM PST

hey dont diss the town i grew up in funny little factoid there are a bunch of little towns named after cities in the me in that area lessee nazareth, lebanon, egypt, just a few off the top of my head but if anyone likes those folk festivals or tours of historic places every year they have a putz at christmas basicly its the retelling of the christmas stories using minitures and in september they have a weeklong festival called musikfest both events are great family events funny thing though the area was settled by quackers and puritans but one of the high school bands is a scottish piper band [my lil bro played the pipes] and nothing more annoying than being woke up hungover to someone practicing the bagpipes

OrangeJuice (#3)

LOL!! That is the perfect response. So funny.

oh hey thanks b for trolling this thread its real nice to see people from different backgrounds come together and agree on so much

#53 quark2, sorry I've been so long in responding, first I was writing my doctoral thesis on health care in the other thread, then I watched tv for a while, and finally I'm back. Anyway, Fried Green AlQaedas looks like an excellent blog, thanks for pointing me to RLP's blogroll, for some reason I never look at anyone's! I'll explore it tomorrow, he's got to have some interesting people on there.
Your church sounds like a great deal of fun, and down-to-earth too. I trust it helps you stay close to God, and to a good community of believers. It sounds that way. That's a good thing, and it's all churches are meant for anyway :-)
The food sounds tasty, too. Hmm, maybe I'll join a church with tasty food! ;)
#55 deja vu-

I'm intrigued that, as a self-described atheist, you are so moved by the Real Live Preacher and Donald Sensing that you're recommending them to others! Maybe you can sense the unconditional love of God which emanates through these people.

Hey, just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I have a heart of stone! I'm not a "hate-God" atheist or a "there-is-positively-no-way-God-exists, period" atheist. I just still haven't found a way to believe in God, but that doesn't mean that I refuse to be open to it. I have empathy just like everyone else, and I can appreciate the purity of heart with which some people approach their relationship with God. Just like I can appreciate the beauty of Gnat's relationship to Lileks, even though I am neither a daughter nor a father :-) When a really wise (wo)man has a deep, abiding love for God, expresses it powerfully and grapples and wrestles with it honestly, unashamed to be uncertain or to fear being wrong or being taught, well-I'm a sucker for that stuff, and I don't care if I don't believe in God. I do believe that this expression of the spiritual dimension of human experience is one of the most profound things one can witness, and I am privileged to be allowed into someone like RLP's or DS's inner sanctum from afar. That's the way I feel about that. It's more moving to experience vicariously than great art is, because it is art, in a real way.

The RLP's faith is becoming stronger as he ceases to rely on institutions and his own interpretations of events and allows God to be God.
The all-important thing is to take our eyes off ourselves and our circumstances, and keep them firmly on Jesus. That way our faith will be so firmly rooted that no change of circumstances can shake it. If we're reliant on a minister or a church we're on very shaky ground indeed.

Absolutely, that speaks so strongly to my own feelings about what a relationship with God should be like. Even though I don't believe, if I did, I would want to believe like Real Live Preacher does, not like a televangelist viewer or Sunday churchgoer (for example) does. What God would allow a church to mediate my relationship with him, rather than just enhancing and strengthening it?
That's part of why Judaism is so attractive to me as well, it seems to encourage a direct relationship with the divine and what I've read of the culture of "arguing" with and about God encourages me to look fondly at the security and comfort that Jews have with God, to be able to look him in the eye and say, "hey!" and chastise or bargain with HaShem as the prophets do multiple times in the Pentateuch, to feel that the sacred isn't "untouchable china" but rather is something you're eating with every day (to coin a possibly offensive metaphor). Back to what you were saying; faith should be firmly rooted in oneself before it is churched. The spirit of the early Christians and their small churches is bound to be a lot closer to what Jesus intended than the Catholic church and the mainline Protestant denominations.

QueenEsther (#3)

I have a bottle of champagne in my fridge. It's waiting for the day ...

When I referred to a Sunday churchgoer above, I meant, one that only thinks of God during church on Sunday, not people who take and live their faith seriously but only go to church on Sundays. Just to be clear.

Now's the time to expel Arafat , or kill him, but he's got to go.

Elizabeth

about Arafat...he looks like he lost weight.a bit more fraigle in this photo....

but maybe he got a new uniform, one that hasn;t shrunk yet?

He sure is taking too long to die.

Well, that's pretty much it for me and the Episcopal church. First there was the Gene Robinson issue (and there are a LOT of reasons he should not have been made a bishop other than where he puts his wang), then the Bishop of Washington (DC)'s little sermon on Christmas day (in which he said that God "sent the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammed with the words of the Holy Qur'an", or something to that effect) and now this crap. It's really depressing because I really love the EC in a lot of ways and most of the individual churches are great. But until they get their act together at the higher levels, I think I'm a Lutheran from now on. :(

Pax,
Doctor Villain

So now we have two people leaving the communion. Good.
I hope you find greener pastures, and pastors, Doctor Villain :-)
There's much interesting discussion above, scroll up if you haven't read it!
Good night, all. I need to read and sleep.

Last post. Many thanks all for the good wishes and tips and links. Am off to bed now before the sun comes up and catches me still here pecking away.

More tomorrow. TTFN. E.

velvetelvis (#35)

Dr Williams has some heavyweight support, notably the endorsement of the former archbishop of Cape Town, Desmond Tutu.

If that slime counts as "heavyweight support" ... Feh. Have I mentioned lately that I loathe Tutu?

Balthazaar to Judah Ben-Hur:

"There are many paths to God my son. I hope yours will not be too difficult."

#71 evariste:I can't believe I'm not butter!

Hey, just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I have a heart of stone!

Oh goodness, I didn't mean to suggest that you had - quite the opposite in fact! Forgive me for saying so, but you sound like an earnest searcher after God rather than a true atheist who, according to my dictionary, believes that there is no God (rather than someone who acknowledges the existence of God but can't believe in Him).

Even though I don't believe, if I did, I would want to believe like Real Live Preacher does, not like a televangelist viewer or Sunday churchgoer (for example) does. What God would allow a church to mediate my relationship with him, rather than just enhancing and strengthening it?

Absolutely agree. And because spiritual things are spiritually discerned, there's no way anyone can be coerced or browbeaten into a relationship with God. It is only through God's Holy Spirit that a person's heart can be changed and energised! It's an entirely personal, one-to-one relationship and, as every person is unique, they will have a unique path to follow and a unique journey to the Godhead.

The spirit of the early Christians and their small churches is bound to be a lot closer to what Jesus intended

I've come to realise the truth of this more and more! You already discern so much that is true - you will find God if you search for Him with all your heart. That is His promise.

However, it is hard to have a meaningful relationship with someone you don't know very well. A W Tozer wrote an excellent little book entitled 'The Knowledge of the Holy' on the attributes of God. It had a huge impact on me as I dimly began to have an understanding of just how great He is! See if you can get a copy - I think it is still in print.

Christianity teaches that all men are tainted by original sin. A priest is not necessarily a better human being.

I wonder if Dr. Williams is evil or stupid. One flaw of Christianity is that stupidity is not considered a sin.

One shouldn't be surprised to see this. Amongst Christians, the good Archbishop's Anglican Church is more concerned with appearing politically correct than actually pursuing peace or the Christian message.

Elizabeth
Doctor Villain

I came across a good blog for disaffected Anglicans on Charles' list of anti-idiotarian blogs in the right-hand column. Check out Christopher Johnson at Midwest Conservative Journal: [Link: mcj.bloghorn.com...]

Try it, you may find some guidance for your search, and good company too.

Rowan Williams, on Tuesday, wrote a letter to the Times of London in which he condemned the upsurge in anti-Semitism worldwide. By Thursday, on the day of a major suicide attack in Israel, he's kibbitzing with the Arab's answer to Hitler.

"No, no, no we respect the Jews - they are so hardworking, and indeed some of our best friends our Jews - it's just Israel we despise and wish was wiped off the face of the map."

Wow, lots of information on my (possibly former) home denomination of Epicopalianism tonight...now, I've expected some crap from Dr. Williams, but I never expected to see defilement like him with Arafish [puke]...

And the DC priest's comments of "Gabriel talked to Mohammed" makes it clear he hasn't shown the slightest interest in verifying any of this with Scripture [ i.e., if Islam didn't come from Satan, we've got something really serious to worry about.]

So, like Elizabeth, I'm left wondering...where do I find a righteous...or at least non-Idiotarian church now? At this point, I'm pretty sure skipping church and heading to synagogue might be my best bet. Maybe I'll just pop in for communion from time to time.

Evariste,

Sorry pal, you're not an atheist. Deal with it. You're actually an "agnostic who's looking". I'm completely convinced that you DO believe in God (YHVH, HaShem, God, Vishnu, etc.), you're just not sure how to go about doing so in a way meaningful to you. Wish you a quick journey in that regard ;).

# 84 Connecticut yankee

Thanks for the link. I wondered in #82 if the Grand-mufti of Canterbury was evil or stupid. Now that I've read an extract of the sermon he gave in the St. George Anglican Cathedral in Jeruzalem, I think he's evil. Mr. Christopher S. Johnson is right to say that it probably belongs to the "top ten of most morally obscene sentences ever uttered by Christians".

Watch out Evariste the soul snarers are behind your arse

I guess his next stop is North Korea

I can't stand that man. He embodies everything wrong with the loony left establishment. From being ordained a druid to meddling in politics, he is a menace to a common sense society. Hopefully the coming Anglican schism will give a chance for all to re-examine where they stand.

Arafat's looking frail.

There is something about that office that makes them priceless Idiotarians, his predeccesor during the funeral services for scores of slaughtered children (Dunblane) asked the mourners to try and understand the Gunman!!
Bleeding heart psychopaths.

Has he not yet offered his condolences to the family of the suicide Bomber, Iam disappointed, will he kiss the kids of the last suicide bomber?
Bleeding heart Psycopath.

I guess coddling scum like Arafat is part of the modern liturgy in the Anglican Church.

And if you think he's bad, check out Melanie Phillips on the Archbishop of Wales:

Melanie Phillips's Diary

December 04, 2003

Goebbels grotto

Horrific ignorance and/or prejudice from no less a luminary than the Archbishop of Wales. In his UNA lecture last month on the relationship between religion and violence, Dr Barry Morgan said this:

'Messianic Zionism came to the fore after the Six Day War in 1967 when “biblical territories were reconquered” and so began a policy of cleansing the Promised Land of all Arabs and non-Jews rather than co-existing with them'.

What? WHAT? Ethnic cleansing by the Israelis? How can he possibly make such a claim? It is totally untrue. There has been no such 'cleansing' at all in the disputed terrritories. The Jewish settlers in these territories -- controversial as they are -- did not take the place of the indigenous Arabs. They are still there. As for 'the biblical territories were reconquered', this gives the totally false impression that Israel aggressively invaded the West Bank and Gaza. Not true; it took these territories as a measure of self defence in the course of the Six-Day War and offered to give them up in return for peace, an offer which was rejected then and at all times since then.

Morgan assumes the retention of the territories and the creation of the settlements were all down to the 'religious right'. Not so. Certainly, religious or political extremism is part of the story, but only a part. Most of the settlers are secular, relatively poor people who moved to these areas because housing was cheap. Israel remains in the territories for strategic reasons -- because the war declared upon it has never ended.

At Camp David and Taba, it offered to give 95 per cent of them up in return for peace; the result has been three years of Arab mass murder. Yet look at how the Archbishop twists this history: '...and so began the policy of illegally squatting on Palestinian properties and encouraging Jews in the diaspora to come back to Israel – actions which led to violence. The intifada was the Arab response to these activities'. This is simply a monumental falsification of what happened. And 'illegally squatting'? It was not illegal, since international law is quite clear that land taken in self-defence in the course of a war is legally held while that war continues, and the country that holds that land can legally build on it (whether or not one thinks that was wise or right, which I do not).

The Archbishop goes on: 'For religious Zionists, Joshua was seen as the prototype of the powerful Jew bringing redemption with the sword, and taking back what was rightfully theirs. Present day Arabs were seen as the modern descendants of the enemies of Israel described in the Bible. So the Biblical account of ancient Israel’s conquering of Canaan provided the script for the present. They saw themselves enjoined by God to occupy the sacred land and to create as far as possible a pure Jewish culture based on the Torah'.

This is all a simply outrageous and quite disgusting distortion. The picture the Archbishop of Wales has painted is of a primitive, racist Jewish aggressor trying to rid the land of Arabs to make it 'pure' for Jews. The reality is that the Jews of Israel have always wanted to live side by side with Arabs, but have been subjected to half a century of murderous attack by them. And the country is overwhelmingly secular; the 'religious right', who he appears to think represent Israel's government and population, are merely a troublesome minority.

The Archbishop's extraordinary remarks are exactly the kind of demented paranoid fantasy being pumped out by Arab propaganda demonising Israel and the Jews. They are an absolute disgrace to the Church -- but sadly, not atypical of the attitude to the Middle East displayed by many Christian clerics, which amounts to nothing less than ahistorical, ignorant and prejudiced incitement of hatred towards the Jewish state.

[Link: www.melaniephillips.com...]

Dear Elizabeth and Members of the C of E:

People are always the problem. Yes the current Archbishop just consented to being honored by a murdering lying sodomite, but members of the England's houses royal have also erred over the years and honored their archbishops.

So I say, stay true to what you believe in and work hard to fix what is wrong. Today my office is held by a politcally correct drooling leftist, perhaps his successor will be a person of better stuff.

Regards,

Sam

Speaking of prizes, the EU just gave Kofi its Sakarov prize for "human rights":

[Link: www.rferl.org...]

Elizabeth, don't jump ship too soon. My husband who's very involved in C of E politics at the moment is hoping for a schism. The good guys world wide with the Bishop of Nigeria as their leader far outnumber the idiotarians based at Lambeth Palace and they are looking for a showdown on I believe 11/02.
As for the druid as he's known in our household, areligious me, long ago noted his resemblance to that charming Brit doctor who recently offed himself in prison where he was serving a life sentence for having murdered countless numbers of his elderly patients.
I always loved the Spy magazine separated at birth feature and Rowan and this doctor fellow were prime candidates for it.
Anyway, wait until the dust settles before leaving the C of E. The Canadian communion needs people like you with convictions and the courage to stand up for them.

LGFers can shop around to a different church, but not the Queen of England (who is also the technical head of state of many other countries, including Australia).

To a very limited extent, the Church of England is the "official" religion of England - the Monarch must be an Anglican. So it's kind of like a member of the British government approving of Arafat.

Arafat looks like someone who will be in need of the last rites pretty soon. I say March 14th. Anyone else?

#98,

And that's the frickin' problem with having an established church, innit?

Bless you, Framers of the U.S. Constitution!

Absolutely disgusting. When I see that kind of stuff, I think there is another holocaust waiting to happen. My father was in Auschwitz and he says that he senses it again.

How can this be that an archbishop gives credit to a leader of a death cult whose ultimate goals are to reach paradise by murdering innocents.

#64 Geepers

War hero?! WTF. John [K]erry was a war hero? Talk about spin.

While serving as a swift boat captain, patrolling the Mekong Delta in Vietnam, Kerry was honored for his bravery and valor, earning a Silver Star, three Purple Hearts, and the Bronze Star with Combat V awards.

I'm not going to vote for him because his record since then has been execrable, but I think we should give credit where it's due.

Eightball: Now you might not believe it but under fire Animal Mother is one of the finest human beings in the world. All he needs is somebody to throw hand grenades at him the rest of his life.

-------------------------------

b -

You're still a thoughtless goon.

Caps

1. "Here, let me wipe off some blood on your tunic."

2. "Oh, you're showing me how to dress? While you're wearing your designer jeans, Mister Eighties?!?!?"

3. "Why yes, I also think that Aaron Carter is hot."

4. "The dish towel? It's just to cover the 666 on my forehead."

5. Don't be pissed at me, You picked the Eagles over the Patriots, I'm holding you to it...slave for a week! And after you finish dressing me, spit shine my cross.

6. "I bet we both lose a purity point for this!"

7. Okay...now the fox chases the rabbit through the hole...that's right...

I showed this picture to my Grandma (who is a member of a URC congregation) and she started crying, because my Grandad was CofE and she was thinking how angry he would have been at this [defilement?] of the Church of England.

I apologised profusely and left the room.

Further to Elizabeth's comment that she's going to write to Rowan Williams, I am too. Luckily, my mother writes saccharinely nasty letters for a living (debt collector!), so I expect some help with that. If any other Brits could write to him (or newspapers, or whatever), you never know, we might just make a difference. Although the difference might be as small as Rowan Williams never doing something this colossally, offensively wrong in public again, it could be something as large as getting him removed from his post if we kick up enough of a fuss.

OT: The spiritual leader of Hamas, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, warned Friday that the Islamic movement plans to kidnap Israeli soldiers to swap for Palestinian prisoners held by the Jewish state
Why the hell is he still around??

While Jesus spent time with tax collectors and prostitutes and lepers, I doubt he would have spent any time with unrepentant murderers.

I don't know what is chicken and what is egg here, but declining attendance at the CoE and the decline in the quality of their leadership is probably related.

One does not have to photoshop Arafat at all to make him look ugly. He reminds me just a tad of the evil Emperor from The Return of the Jedi .

Why haven't teh Israelis totally isolated this cretin and prevented him from receiving visitors?

I am so tired of these 'morally superior' church leaders condemning the battle with radical islamofascists. From the vaticans tepid 'reminder' that islam has been a threat in the past, to this idiots embrace of arafish.
My own pastor, after 9-11, got all involved in the local mosque to try to 'understand' and 'heal' the raw emotions.
Fuck these people. They don't have a clue.
The islamoids want to kill anyone who is not one of them. Sure, not every muslim is a radicalized animal, but exactly how many of them are actually doing anything about the rest ?
Hey bishop - you want to save souls (that is supposed to be your job you know), start with those who would kill innocent women and children. Hob nobbing with shitbags like arafart only loses you credibility. BTW, God reserves the hottest place in hell for those who lead his people astray in His name. Just something to think about next time your praising a man who sends mothers to blow themselves up in order to kill children.
What a jerkoff.

The photo says it all: any friend of Arafat's is an enemy of Israel and the Jewish people.

Oh my God.

This man doesn't speak for me.

In fact, as a sinner myself, my most heartfelt desire would be to throw those two up on two crosses for about a week or so.

God help me.

How very precious you all are at LGF; even those with whom I've disagreed. I wouldn't trade your concern for me and others here for all the Archbishops in history. You are far more spiritual than many prelates, even the atheists and agnostics are, nevertheless spiritual in your quest for fairness and justice for your fellowman and I'd sooner talk to you guys and KNOW someone actually heard my confusion about the war we're fighting and the world we live in than any of the pedantic, precious prelates out there.
God bless every little lizardoid soul among you. Long may you continue to plague our enemies with your insight, compassion and devastating humour! Go, Lizardoid Minions, Go! And Himself, the inimitable Charles, Lizardoid King too!

G*d Bless the wacky lot of you!

#104 Ginger Liz - you really think we have a chance of getting Rowan Williams out? I wish it was so, but this visit to Yasser *spit* Arafat will be spun as an intervention on behalf of the few palestinian Christians who are around.

Apparently Arafat complained to Williams that with the Jews in Jerusalem the Chritians were under threat.

(#109) scaramouche

The photo says it all: any friend of Arafat's is an enemy of Israel and the Jewish people.

So true.

Sadly, friends of Arafat are also enemies, in a way, of the Palestinian Arab people - especially the children.

They are also enemies of truth and decency.

Read his own words - he sounds to me like he's implying Israel is not a civil society

Archbishop response to Middle East violence

“If two neighbour communities can begin to become truly civil societies in which law and human dignity are taken absolutely seriously, there is the chance of growth towards a human fellowship in which the presence of God can become visible.”

Trim your damn eyebrowns man

#50

thanks for that!

Here is the email for anyone intersted in a position vacancy in the diocese of cantebury: gmarsh@diocant.org

Arafat - the terrorist with good PR.

OT -
Some Good Krauthammer:
[Link: www.townhall.com...]

OT: Norway: Krekar to be Released 2/2/04, Police Want to Keep Him Longer
OT: UN Adds More Saudi Charity Branches Added to Terror List

This also, is happening in the Anglican Church

[Link: www.christchurch-virginiawater.co.uk...]

The central theological question is this:

Does possession of the land by Jewish people today, and the existence of the State of Israel, have any theological significance in terms of the fulfilment of biblical prophecy or within the purposes of God?

Or, should we believe that this understanding of the Land is inconsistent with the Gospel proclaimed by, and summed up in, Jesus Christ?

The question is whether we have good biblical and theological reasons for giving whole-hearted support to the Zionist vision? Or, do we find in Scripture grounds for criticising and rejecting this ideology as sub-Christian or even heretical?

now, he is trying to formulate some theory on how to deny the Zionist vision, as heretical to Christianity!

these idiots are viciously mentally ill

by the way, that is Stephen Sizer's life work!

Is it just me or does it look like the Evil One is wiping some spittle off the Clueless Dhimmi with a baby wipe?

way to go Archbishop - Arse bandits at home & bandits abroad! Admirable consistency

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, left, awards Archbishop of Canterbury Dr. Rowan Williams the Bethlehem 2000 medal

Next up: Archbishop Williams accepts the Haute Cuisine Medal from Jeffrey Dahmer*.

Revolting.

_________________________
* or from his ghost, whatever

Thom (#102),

On February 28, 1969:
When Kerry's Patrol Craft Fast 94 received a B-40 rocket shot from shore, he hot dogged his craft beaching it in the center of the enemy position. To his surprise, an enemy soldier sprang up from a hole not ten feet from Patrol Craft 94 and fled.
The boat's machine gunner hit and wounded the fleeing Viet Cong as he darted behind a hootch. The twin .50s gunner fired at the Viet Cong. He said he "laid 50 rounds" into the hootch before Kerry leaped from the boat and dashed in to administer a "coup de grace" to the wounded Viet Cong. Kerry returned with the B-40 rocket and launcher.
Kerry was given a Silver Star for his actions.

Not exactly Silver Star worthy in my opinion.

And his three Purple Hearts weren't given for anything much, and as soon as he got them he put in for transfer "Reassignment is requested ... as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Wash., D.C. area."

Calling Kerry a "war hero" is disingenuous at best.

The Church of England is one of the biggest left wing organizations around. Getting a Bethlehem medal from
the man whose forces forced their way into the Church of the Nativity at gunpoint is as low as you can get.

#121 ploome

I recall you tipped me to this moron when I was researching replacement theology. I couldn't bear to read much of his tripe, but he ignores reams of Scripture that completely refute his bankrupt theology.

IIRC, the Archibishop of Canterbury is named by the Prime Minister and rubber stamped by The Crown.

Send a message to Tony Blair that reminds him how the actions of Dr. Rowan Williams are particularly glaring b/c 1) the Archishop is a de facto representative of Blair's administration, and 2) paying a call to Arafat on the day one of his PA associates murders 10 and injures 50 in a terrorist attack is, at minimum, unethical and ptentially damaging to his poslitical career. Atkinson should be made to step down, and making Blair realize this could help to force Williams to pay a price for this travesty!

Send your opinions to PM Blair at:

Contact the Prime Minister About International affairs

re: #71, evariste: "The spirit of the early Christians and their small churches is bound to be a lot closer to what Jesus intended than the Catholic church and the mainline Protestant denominations."

Many think this, but it's really not so true. To be sure, when you see a picture like this, in which a hierarchial and extablished Church has its head talking to a terrorist, you might question whether the structure of such a church is correct. But that would be to put the sin of an individual on an instutition, which would be wrong.

I suggest browsing some books on early Church history, and you'll see how similar the Mass is then as compared to today. Anything by Ignatius Press is a heavily researched and thoroughly fact-based book. Take a look before saying something is "bound" to be true.

Dis my chosen religious affiliation all you want, but you'll never see the head of the LDS church sucking up to a scumbag terrorist like that.

OT: Check This Out The 4ID is imitating LGF now.

#125 Geepers

Do you know how he got the Bronze Star w/V? I can't find anything on that.

OT: As I was walking up 14th Street this morning from the metro station to my office, I passed a long row of newspaper boxes: DC papers like the Post and Times, plus the NY Times, the WSJ, a Baltimore paper or two, USA Today, and others. All had headlines about yesterday's bus bombing in Jerusalem, and paper after paper said "10 killed" or "10 die" or "Bomber kills 10." Except the WaPo, which had "11 killed" -- that is, 10 human beings, one 'Splomo sapiens.

Sorry for all the typos, folks - this story really pisses me off!

To most of the world murdering Jews,
civilian or military, is not Terrorism;
but simply "A Good Idea".

This "arch-bishop" obviously agrees.

He is the archtypal example of a
devil-worshipper pretending to be
a relgious leader.

He has my pity for he is sure to spend
eternity in Hell.

Rachel's parents. This clown. If anyone photoshopped my own mother into the picture I'd have to cancel Mother's Day dinner reservations.

There will be dancing in the steets the day the fish goes round and round and down the toilet. Hope I don't have work the next day and get to sleep it off.

Rowan Williams is a self-satirising idiot who is constantly vilified in every UK press organ that isnt al-Ghardiyan or the Bolshevik Broadcasting Collective.

Is anybody the least bit surprised by pictures like this?
There's no questioning the evil of the PLO and Yes'sir I'mafascist, but people are extremely opposed to saying anything bad about the catholic church. The Jews have all the money? Ok. whatever. That's a dumb myth to create to help spread hatred about anybody. But look at the catholic church. Look at what a corporation it is. The Vatican sits on mountains of cash...a lot of it blood money. The church is undeniably corrupt, and it willfully harbors child-rapists. Why shouldn't the catholic church embrace Hammas? They've already signed a deal with the devil. Why not with the PLO as well?

re: #137,

"But look at the catholic church. Look at what a corporation it is. The Vatican sits on mountains of cash...a lot of it blood money. The church is undeniably corrupt, and it willfully harbors child-rapists. Why shouldn't the catholic church embrace Hammas? They've already signed a deal with the devil. Why not with the PLO as well?'

Can you get any more bigoted? Sheesh. Your comments don't even deserve a response.

Thom (#131),

Can't find anything specific about Kerry's Bronze Star w/ V, but:

The awarding of medals is the military's way of saying, "good boy or girl for that matter." But, it is not a pure process, meaning that it often depends on the command, even military politics itself. And, something that is almost never discussed about awards-all are not equal. In Vietnam, the Bronze Star could be awarded for service.

In other words, showing up for work. - At war, this is no small thing. Or, the Bronze Star could be awarded for valor. If for valor, it had on it, a "V," it meant that the person who received it did something extraordinary under fire.

Wouldn't you think if John "did I mention I'm a Viet Nam vet" Kerry received a medal for extraordinary service under fire that it would be splashed all over his web site?

#132 Throbbing McGee

Did you happen to catch the LGF Stalker's heartfelt elegy to Tom Hurndall? Let me sum up: He went to Iraq to help Saddam kill his own people. He went to the West Bank to help Palestinians kill Jews. But what we'll really miss is the laughter.

#137 shaefer

You do realize that the Catholic Church and the Church of England are two entirely different entities, don't you?

I didn't think Yassir could look any more repulsive than he already does, but he has acquired a certain Michael-Mooreish cretinism in this picture.

Shaefer -

The Archbishop of Canterbury is Anglican. The Catholic one is the Archbishop of London.

My thoughts on religion today...

I have noticed that Arafat was looking wan in this photo, as have many of you. But I do not want him to die. It would be a travesty if he were to die from kidney failure.

I want him to be publically executed. And I want it to be something horrible... like being lowered slowly, feet first, into a vat of boiling oil.

Israel has released hundreds of Hizbollah terrorists. Despite such criminal stupidity, hope springs eternal that one day they will have the moral courage to actually win this war that was not of their own choosing.

I guess that means that the Archbishop and I wont be hobnobbing together. :)

V the K (#140)

LOL!!

Since I brought up Michael Moore...

V t K -

Does this mean I should tell the bartender to cancel the Irish Coffee I was sending your way?

I miss "LGF Watch Watch". It was fun while it lasted.

#139 Geepers

Wouldn't you think if John "did I mention I'm a Viet Nam vet" Kerry received a medal for extraordinary service under fire that it would be splashed all over his web site?

I don't know, but he did get the V. No idea for what though.

Bottom line: I don't think it's a good idea to take on Kerry's military service given the hay the left would make of Bush's service in a tit-for-tat slugfest.

I'm also uncomfortable second-guessing why he got the medals he did. That could lead to marginalizing every other medal-winner's actions. "Well, his wounds weren't that bad so why'd he get a Purple Heart ..." kinda thing.

Look, the guy is no Sgt. York or Audie Murphy to be sure, and since that time he's been a grade A asshole ... still I think it's best to leave his military record alone. I don't think it's a winning strategy, and, frankly, comes across as sour grapes (IMHO, YMMV).

That's part of why Judaism is so attractive to me as well, it seems to encourage a direct relationship with the divine and what I've read of the culture of "arguing" with and about God encourages me to look fondly at the security and comfort that Jews have with God, to be able to look him in the eye and say, "hey!" and chastise or bargain with HaShem as the prophets do multiple times in the Pentateuch, to feel that the sacred isn't "untouchable china" but rather is something you're eating with every day (to coin a possibly offensive metaphor).

Evariste, will you marry me? Meet me in Vermont; I'll bring the rental tuxes!

Seriously, we think along very similar lines. Even when I still believed in God, as a young Catholic kid, I instinctively wanted to have this kind of relationship with God, where I could challenge and disagree and not be rejected for that. I like your "untouchable china" metaphor, too. As an atheist, I am amused by believers who are afraid to "get God dirty." My feeling is, "Eh, he's omnipotent -- he can take it."

Here is a story you may enjoy -- a re-imagining of "The Fall of Man." I read it as an adolescent in a sci-fi anthology from the library, never forgot it, and some months ago I managed to track down that same anthology and transcribe the story for the Web.

Email I sent to the church comissioners of the church of England:

Dear Sirs,

With regards the picture above, does the Archbishop enjoy getting shiny medals from a terrorist murder? Do you understand how this looks? Arafat is a terrorist with the blood of thousands on his hands if not hundreds of thousands. His hands are thick with the blood of his own people as well as that of the Israelis, Americans and other nationalities. I hope the arch bishop was proud to get the terrorist’s medal!

Did the arch bishop have the guts to ask Arafat about the thousands of Christians who have been treated terribly by the Palestinian Muslims? Did he ask Arafat why the population of Bethlehem which was once 70% Christian is now 70% Muslim? Did he ask Arafat about the 2 million Christians chased from the Middle East by Islamic aggression? Did he ask Arafat why he turned down Barak’s offer of a complete Palestinian state in favour of the bombs, guns, death and terror of his ‘intifada’? Did he ask Arafat about the terrorist infrastructure that he supports that puts poisoned ball bearings, bolts and nuts through the bodies of Israeli men, woman and children on buses, in shopping centres and anywhere else that they can get to a damn Jew? Did he ask Arafat about the brainwashing of thousands of children into an Islamic death cult that puts the death of the martyr before the life of a child or even the love of a mother? Did he ask Arafat about the daily incitement to racial hatred against the Jews put out by the PA on its media airwaves and in its newspapers? Did he ask about the ‘summer camps’? Did he ask about Arafat’s real intention regarding the State of Israel? Did he ask Arafat to stop the bombings, shootings and kidnappings and to arrest the terrorists?

Did the arch-bishop have the courage to even ask one of these questions?

Did the arch bishop actually have the courage to do anything other than look like a complete plum while the arch terrorist, fascist leader of the Palestinian Islamic Death Cult pinned a stupid medal to his shirt? I wouldn’t say from the picture he actually looks all that comfortable in Arafat’s presence. And look at the inane grin on Arafat’s face while he pins that medal thinking about what a great pr coup he has just gained in his quest for ‘statehood’ (also known as ‘Palestine from the river to the sea’!).

Who in your organisation thought this meeting was a good idea? I am aware that it is in ‘vogue’ to be seen to be pandering to the leftist cause of the promotion of Palestinian statehood and the destruction of the state of Israel, but should the arch-bishop of this country be seen shaking the hand of a terrorist? And not just any terrorist, but the chief terrorist who was elected to president because no one else stood against him! Such a fine example of the democratic process for the arch bishop to be hanging about with! I hope the Arch-Bishop went on to see Ahmed Yassin after his meeting with Arafat, I hear he does a nice line of shiny red medals for his holy warriors.

You have been duped by a terrorist, I’m afraid! But that is not all! You are selling out the Jewish people, the Christian people and G-d himself by appeasing this man and his fanatical followers! If your organisation and religion carries on along this path, ultimately you will be found on the wrong side of G-d.

This man and his followers are against everything both our religions are based on. The Jewish people will stand firm against this terror for your and our sakes but remember if we are wiped out, you lot are next. We have the courage to stand up to terror, extremism and brainwashing, do you?

I hope you wake up before it is too late.

#27 deja vu 1/29/2004 09:52PM PST

A total disgrace. The Church of England seems to be self-destructing

Not sure where I read this lately, perhaps here......but I understand that there are more muslims attending religious services in England these days then there are people attending Church Of England.

< Although technically I am a member of the COE, yet never attended.............and now I am truly glad I never did >

Thom (#148),

I agree. But, It's been my experience that honored veterans don't make a big deal of their honors. And certainly not ones that thought so much of their awards that they threw them over the fence of the White House in protest. So if Kerry wants to tout his "heroism" he better be able to justify it.

Does this mean I should tell the bartender to cancel the Irish Coffee I was sending your way?

Probably... but I'll take a steaming mug of chai, if you have any.

Shelagh Delves (#149)

Not sure where I read this lately, perhaps here......

The Islamification of the UK

Throbert McGee,

Were you aware that your cat is being shamelessly exploited for her odalisque pose?

BTW, how's little Throbert Jr./Throbertina doing these days?

Frank IBC: LOL. When I read the headline "Decomposing Whale Explodes on Street," I thought Michael Moore had joined Hamas.

#147 Thobert -

Sorry, you can't have him. He's MINE, ALL MINE!!!

:o)

138   Sydney Carton  1/30/2004 08:54AM PST re: #137,

Sydney Carton wrote the following about another poster, Shaefer:

"Can you get any more bigoted? Sheesh. Your comments don't even deserve a response."

According to the OED a bigot, inter alia is: "A person obstinately and unreasonably wedded to a particular religious creed, opinion, or ritual."

I don't believe that Shaefer was being obstinate or unreasonable in any way whatsoever. Indeed, given that many very senior elements of the Roman Catholic church together with many millions of its adherents directly participated in the Holocaust, in Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, Slovakia and elsewhere, then Shaefer didn't go nearly far enough.

If a man who tells the truth about great wickedness is a bigot, then, so too must be the very creator of the world Himself.

Frank, Throb,

And here I was thinking you two were happily domestically partnered... (not to each other) ...

Zulubaby, earlier you posted a less than admiring comment about Desmond Tutu. In our house he's known as Bishop Ballet Skirt or Bishop BS for short which is probably more to the point.

Everyone..please disabuse yourself of the ridiculous idea that the Archbiship..the COE one DOESNT know what he is doing, what message he is sending and what will be accomplished by a "partnership" with Arafat...ie the putting of Israel in a shakey position FOREVER, the minute a Pal State is established. Think people in hi places in GB dont know the history of this area AND the players, who they are now, who they were before the good PR took over, who their relatives were...(in Arafats case) the MUFTI of Jerusalem. For G-d sakes..you know HE KNOWS.

All America ever had to do was say NO..No to the Palistinian State cause it has NO historical background in the real world, but was just a TACTIC for the Moslems to get what they wanted AFTER everyone realized they couldnt win Militarily. We should keep saying NO to this dangeous new state that IS going to be developed.

All YOU have to do is say NO.....and keep saying NO to our Govnt AND to your respective Religious ORGANIZATIONS..These are powerful entities, more political now than religious..so I believe it possible to say NO. When you say NO to the political "kibbitzing" by these Churches..you are NOT saying NO to your G-d. Church as an Political Organization is not the same as G-d.

While we are at it..this includes both huge and powerful and influential Churches mentioned. Seems that BOTH the Archbiships..Cant.and London agree on the victimhood of the pooooor Pals..and the Establishment of a FULL Palistinian State.

They are not G-d...G-d is G-d.

Zulu: I really cant stomach Tutu. I mean I really really REALLY cant stand him.

Millie Woods (#158)

I especially like Bishop Ballet Skirt. Suits him ;-)

Leah (#150)

I don't know how anyone can like him, he's a nasty racist, anti-Semite ... ugh. I can't stand him, never have been able to. Tutu is the world's biggest phony next to Arafat.

Islamofascists rant rave oppress and destroy, while Israelis create and contribute to civilization and human health and happiness:

Researchers at two different Israeli universities have recently developed novel materials that respectively stimulate speedy bone and cartilage repair, and enable faster and improved healing of injuries.

At Bar-Ilan University's Male Fertility Clinic in Israel, Prof. Benjamin Bartoov has developed a novel diagnostic system that has enabled 100 previously infertile men to father children at a 'take home' baby rate of 40% - double the rate of non-selective methods.

Sad to say, the information coming out that many of the anti-war crowd were being paid off in millions of barrels of oil will not be publicized by The Bush Administration, acting on the advise of arabists and accomodationists at State urging that our European and Arab "friends" not suffer embarrassment.

How do you spell self-defense? Krav Maga

mad as hell (#164)

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

#81 deja vu

Forgive me for saying so, but you sound like an earnest searcher after God rather than a true atheist who, according to my dictionary, believes that there is no God (rather than someone who acknowledges the existence of God but can't believe in Him).

You can say that, it isn't too forward of you. I'll admit that when I profess my admiration for other men's faith it can certainly sound that way, but I honestly do not believe in God. I'm open to it, but I'm not looking for it.
A W Tozer's book sounds good, I'll read it. Amazon has a reprint, so it's definitely available.
#86 Jolly Roger

-Sorry pal, you're not an atheist. Deal with it. You're actually an "agnostic who's looking". I'm completely convinced that you DO believe in God (YHVH, HaShem, God, Vishnu, etc.), you're just not sure how to go about doing so in a way meaningful to you. Wish you a quick journey in that regard ;).

See what I said to deja vu. Agnostics believe that God is unknowable, if he exists. That is not my position, in fact I think it's preposterous. If God exists in a meaningful way, he is knowable. Atheism is much less ambitious, it just means, "I don't believe in God". I just don't believe in God. I'm not looking, but I do appreciate an aspect of human experience that 90% of people engage in; it would be silly of me to ignore it. Just because I can appreciate, say, Real Live Preacher's struggles with God, doesn't mean I believe in God-only that RLP's experience of what he believes is the divine (and as far as I'm concerned, could just be in his head) is a profound thing to behold.
Just because I like a Matisse doesn't mean I want to paint too! :-)
#88 Westward Ho, (why do you sometimes capitalize and other times don't?)

Watch out Evariste the soul snarers are behind your arse

So you believe in the soul? Interesting, I don't think that I do.

#123-way to go Archbishop - Arse bandits at home & bandits abroad! Admirable consistency

Hey, Arafat's an ass-bandit too, don't deny him his due! Remember the tiger and the hyena?
#90 Smit-wait. He. was. ordained. a. druid?
#129 Sidney Carton-I've read a lot about early Church history, and while the sacraments are very old, older than the Catholic church, that doesn't mean that the spirit in which they approach their relationship with the divine is the same as that of the early Christians. What I don't like is institutional religion that has ossified; you'll notice that I praise, for instance, the African Anglican churches, even though they're the same religion, nominally, as the CoE.
I will check out Ignatius Press, thanks for recommending it! Is one of the categories of books that I see there specifically about the early church(es)? Or are they sort of sprinkled through several of them?
#147 Throbert McGee-LOL! Only if it's a platonic marriage. Say, you aren't marrying me just for the green card, are you? Because if you are...*shakes fist* :-)
Thanks for transcribing that story, it sounds excellent. I'll read it tonight, I have to go get some things done before the business day ends and I'm stuck waiting for Monday.
#148 JWarrior-great letter!
#155 Frank IBC-Heh. Why can't I get females to fight over me? :)

Not Sure if anyone has posted this yet:

From Scrappleface

On a more serious note:

A great article in First Things about the state of Europe and how it got that way: Europe’s Problem—and Ours

Long, but worth a read. A couple of nuggets:

Writing during the Occupation of France by Nazi Germany, Henri de Lubac, S.J., proposed that the civilizational crisis in which Europe found itself during World War II was the product of what he called “atheistic humanism”—the deliberate rejection of the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus, in the name of authentic human liberation. What biblical man had perceived as a liberation from the whims of the gods or fate—the self-revelation in history of the one God who was neither a willful tyrant nor a remote abstraction—atheistic humanism perceived as bondage. Human greatness required rejecting the biblical God.

This, de Lubac suggested, was something new. It was not the atheism of skeptical individuals looking to discomfort the neighbors. This was atheistic humanism, atheism with a developed ideology and a program for remaking the world. Ideas have consequences, and bad ideas can have lethal consequences. At the heart of the darkness inside the great mid-twentieth-century tyrannies, de Lubac discerned the lethal effects of the marriage between atheistic humanism and modern technology. He summed up the results of this misbegotten union in these terms: “It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man.” That is what the tyrannies of the twentieth century had proven—that ultramundane humanism is inevitably inhuman humanism.

One piece of asshattery floated in another thread was that religion is inimical to the West or "Westernism." (Self-righteousness is not the exclusive province of practitioners of religious faiths.) Even an honest atheist can recognize that the Elightenment did not come out of nowhere and that the Rule of St. Benedict was/is as essential to what we call the West as the important advances of science and politics since the 1600s.

. . . but the article discusses more than the religion angle. Very timely.

If you go dig up my old posts you will see, as a reductio ad absurdam to illustrate the lack of outcry from "Muslim moderates" about the slaughter being preached from state-run mosques like those in Saudi Arabia, I used to propose the thought experiment of imagining what would happen if the Archbishop of Canterbury were to call for the extermination of Muslims.

That is, you would have loud, raucous, worldwide furor, schisms within the Church of England, inter-denominational condemnation from all Christian churches. All that happens when Saudi imams preach slaughter is crickets. The top story today (1/30/04) on here shows that, despite the fact that the Saudis have "fired thousands of extremist clerics" (aside -- there were thousands?), they are still at it.

Anyway, the point is I will have to retire my thought experiment, because the Archbishop of Canterbury is a dhimmi.

In 40 years or so, it won't be C of E, it'll be M of E.
You figure it out.

evariste,

The thing that got me serious about religion wasn't the theology or any sort of "relationship" with God. I just considered the history of the matter, which boils down to the question: Was the Ressurection True? By that, I mean, was it a historical fact? I think the answer to that is yes.

Of course, there's no way to know for SURE, so that's where faith comes in. But a lot of what got me there was the major historical truth to the Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles, and the other parts of the New Testament. Perhaps because I am using a Catholic bible, which is annotated with footnotes and cross-references, it provides me with much more information than a plain regular one would. For example, Chapter 12 of Acts of the Apostles details the persecution of the early church by King Herod. we know that King Herod Agrippa ruled Judea from AD 41-44, which gives credence to the fact that James was a martyr for the early Church, and that the account of Peter's intended execution was probably true.

The fact that these executions and murders took place so early in the Church's history tends to lend weight to the fact that these men, who actually knew Jesus and claimed to have seen him ressurected, weren't just a bunch of hucksters. The wit of their writing suggests that they weren't madmen, and their charity towards the churches they established shows they weren't power-hungry either. That they died early for all of this is important. Men like that don't endure that unless it's for a good reason. The only thing that I could think of why they would do it is because they saw the Ressurection as true.

Anyway, that's my story in a nutshell.

evariste, when you get to Seattle, we'll do lunch.

On the bright side, Arafat is not looking very good.

Sydney Carton, that's fascinating.
steve miller, you're on. Next time I'm in the PNW I'll try to make it to Seattle, and let you know.

Hey! arafat is wearing howard dean's Iowa neckscarf. Imagine that!

begin dipstick dean apologist>

But its a Tallis!

/dipstick dean apologist>

begin clueless deaniac who believes dipstick apologist>

Hey! arafat is wearing a Tallis on his head. Imagine that!

/clueless deaniac who believes dipstick apologists>

To all my agnostic, atheist, neo-atheist*, secular Jewish, Fallen-Away Catholic, secular humanist, pantheist, and pagan friends...

Another installment on the "Dhimmitude" Thread

*my neologism for so-called atheists who do not necessarily deny the existence of a god.

#166 Evariste And So On So On So On -

It's the Extra-Large Magic Panties®.

Oh. It's my hat?
Good, I don't have to worry about that purple-green tumor on my neck, it was just the panty-hat!
I'll switch to bra hats.

#148 JWarrior

I don't know if you're done with this thread or not, but that letter was very good.

You are selling out the Jewish people, the Christian people and G-d himself by appeasing this man and his fanatical followers

That about sums it up. I would add "all non-savages", but, I realize that's not diplomatic.

#178 evariste

What's with the cake or death? Are you channeling Eddie Izzard?

Yup! Isn't he hilarious?

every time I read it, I actually hear Eddie Izzard saying it and it makes me smile a little.
It (that bit, not his whole act) actually sort of reminds me of Monty Python, somehow.

#182 evariste

Eddie Izzard is an Idiotarian in many ways, but he's still funny, and there's no shame in enjoying him.

I think his funniest bit was the Star Wars observations, and why the voice of Darth Vader couldn't be that of a regular English chap.

----

Cake..or..death?

Cake!

Right. There you go.

Not sure I saw that one, which dvd is it on? (It's been a few months, maybe I just don't remember it)

I looked it up, it's the Circle (Live in New York) DVD. Haven't seen that one.

#176 Frank IBC

Round and round she goes, where she'll stop nobody knows.

Good, I don't have to worry about that purple-green tumor on my neck, it was just the panty-hat!

Actually, neither. It's a hickey from Barney the Dinosaur. ;)

Elizabeth --- The Torah teaches us that there an many roads to G-d. Just find one that makes you comfortable.

However - If you decide to joint the tribe --- I'll send you my wife's recipes. Some of them are generations old!

Howard

Can you get any more bigoted? Sheesh. Your comments don't even deserve a response.

oops. didn't realize the guy was Anglican. big deal. everything I said about the catholic church I still mean. I didn't hurl insults at catholics. I feel sad for them. I can't say I know anybody who converted to catholicism in his/her 40's. It's typically the sort of thing you inherit. The church is very corrupt. Who would deny that? If Islam is the Religion of Peace, then Catholicism is the Religion of Honesty and Child Protection.

also, the Cake or Death bit is one of the funniest things I've seen lately. I also like his "Well...do you have a flag?" explorer bit.

p.s. bigoted? oh no.

Frank IBC-LOL! I knew it was a bad idea to get that drunk at the Mascots' Ball!
Shaefer, that "stealing countries with the cunning use of flags" bit is definitely one of the most brilliant things I've seen yet.

Shaefer,

Don't feel sad for us poor Catholics - we're doin just fine. By insulting the faith of those who profess it, you defacto insult the person. It also is typical of people, such as yourself, who toss around the generic "bombs" attacking the Catholic Church, do not have an ounce of factual evidence supporting their screeds. "The Church is very corrupt"??? It what way? How so? Gee, is that the same thing as, "America is the Great Satan"?

No, I feel sorry for those who toss around pejoratives with little knowledge of which they speak because it makes them feel better about themselves.