Do you suppose it ever occurs to them that their entire strategy hinges on the assumption that their enemy is more civilized than they? They rather take that in stride for a community so prone to humiliation.

Everybody in those pics is fair game in my mind.

Debka reports that Arafat has ordered a massive wave of attacks against Israel, specifically Gush Katif in the Gaza Strip.

These children are in no danger as long as they are hanging around next to militants.. ..However if these Hamas guys were terrorists that would be a different story!

Cowards using cowardly tactics.

Kill them all and damn world opinion.

Great. Just fucking great. These bastards are cowards - COWARDS - a true warrior isn't going to hide behind children to protect himself. A murderer, maybe, but not a warrior.
I thought these guys all believed in "sacrificing" (that is, sacrificing THEMSELVES for Allah (well, ok, I guess the lure of 72 virgins is part of it, especially if a man is afraid to enjoy the company of women who have someone(s) to compare him to (as a lover, I mean). When the hell did Allah say "and sacrifice your (neighbor's) children as well.
I'm in a really really bad mood over this, and, keeping my mood in mind, it's more than tempting to say: Kill them ALL and let Allah sort 'em out.
Fucking cowards.

I think that's a captioning error. The real one for the top photo reads "A Palestinian activist plays with children using a toy mortar as a prop, despite the fact that Israeli forces are nearby and may shoot at them."

Now that would be the AP we all know and love.

BH - Oh course they do.

That is par for the soviet style training that Arafat and other PA leaders got in the 70's - use the weaknesses of the West against them.

TRANSFER is the only solution. Endless tit for tat is demoralizing, not effective, and does not address the root cause-- of the problem. The root cause is the presence in Eretz Israel of a demented Arab subculture that celebrates the murder of Jews so that Israel might collapse and be replaced with a nightmare Jihad- Mafia state called Palestine

And what's with the kid in blue? If he doesn't move, he'll, um, have no need for 72 virgins in the hereafter, if ya know what I mean.

Whadaya mean? That's a regular Palestinian Galileo and that's his green telescope. Just looking to the skies for his barking Mooon God.

heh

Anyone know why its 72 virgins and not 3 or 20 or 200? Why 72?

Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset

A culture that uses its own children as human shields has no hope.

its too bad they killed off the sun goddess.. i bet she wouldnt have put up with any of that crap.

Using kids as human shields, hiding in the midst of the civilian population, smuggling in proscribed weapons, etc. aside, can anybody cite one example of PA fulfilling any (substantial) of their Oslo obligations?

#14 BPP

72 is how many white raisins can fit in a medium size cup.

You've got it all wrong. It was just "Take Your Son to Jihad Day" in the Palestinian territories.

The old lefty win/win senario. If the IDF don't fire back then the Pals get what they want and if they do it's the IDF's fault if anyone gets harmed.

IT is so outrageous that the PA is not being slammed by the international powers that be!!! AAAHH, it is so frustrating. The world needs to do something about the treacherous, murderous, Islamic fundamentalist PA. These pictures are so telling of the difficult task Israel is faced with, yet they persevere and all freedom loving peoples of the world should show their support for Israel and chastise and do something about the treacherous, evil, hellish PA.

#3, I noticed that a few minutes ago as well. Where is western media coverage of this, talking about John Kerry Vs Dean I suppose. It seems like something is in the air and that some big things are about to go down in Israel. I hope they do not hold back form showing the PA that they are not standing still anymore and letting them conduct themselves as they are. No occupation, devastation is what is needed, real, harsh PA kid shield killing stuff. They need a lesson, and to learn their place is in their homes, raising their families, not fighting a holy war against themselves. They don't care though, that is why The US needs to say enough is enough and let Israel do what it must to show the PA that it's time to farm the land again. And if they don't get it, then maybe a bit of strong, heavy handed warfare, and devastation in PA homes and land is just what the doctor ordered.

The Palestinians, not the Israelis, are putting these kids in harm's way (assuming they are not volunteering to be martyrs). In any case, the responsibility for Israel is only to protect her own. She should treat ALL such human shields as unlawful combatants and shoot them.

Adel Hana, terrific photo! I wish I knew people who thought the Palestinian's were freedom fighters, I'd sent this to them.

Fortunately, everyone I know thinks they're thugs.

I think the tide is turning and the news outlets are starting to realize they can't control public perception anymore. They will have to fall back on their old business model, which was to accurately report the news.

Will you LOOK at that little boy placed in the middle of all this? For G-d sakes..what the hell kinda people are these?

And yes, that Westerners value life and their children and dont use them as shields in War ...is a definite TACTIC that the Pals use. They know full well how horrible it is for Jewish boys and girls in Israel to be having to possibly kill a child. Its disgusting..They sure well know that too much of that DEMORALIZES Israeli soldiers...And the PR of it..They use their children for PR..hoping those kids will be killed. GEEZE

Another Tactic..They know that IF they run into a Church..especially a well known one..Jewish boys and girls DONT WANT to shoot up the Church...so thats also what they do. Same with Hospitals and Ambulances.. Doesn't matter to THEM...but it does matter to us.

Thats how Barbarians sometimes win. They do stuff or set up situations that the other side was brought up to NOT do.

Animals. Israel should bring pictures like this out whenever the press whines about civilian deaths (so long as they're not Jews). Israel should also be making a big deal of this at the UN and in the American and European media.

Or even better, chose to end the disputes and win the war.

The bottom picture in particular is a perfect photo-essay of Palestinian society.

And this is what the highest per-capita level of direct foreign aid in the world is buying.

Charles said:

Two photos just posted of today’s battle in the Gaza Strip again reveal the cynical use of children and young unarmed human shields by murderous Hamas cowards

'Use' is right. These kids have been brought up wanting to die.

I can understand wanting to destroy an enemy culture/race/etc. I do not necessarily sympathise with it, but the logic makes sense: I hate group X -> I want to kill off group X.

But to turn your children in to shields and bombs, to shoot them for publicity stunts...

I don't know enough history to say whether or not this is unprecedented. But Palestinian 'culture' is surely the pinnacle of barbarism.

All the kids in these pictures: This is what your tax dollars are buying in Gaza and the West Bank. Keep this picture in mind when you go to vote this year.

I just read a book by Barbara Victor called Army of Roses about the female Palestinian suicide bombers. In it she talks about a conversation between one of the main terrorist leaders in Palestine and his wife in which he said that one of his seven children might need to be sacrificed for the Jihad.

His wife said, "Over my dead body!"

Obviously none of THEIR children are gathered around the big guns.

Yeah I know, it's OT, but after yesterdays discussion of John Kerry's past - I thought some of you would want to see Jane Fonda defend John Kerry on CNN.

I wonder if Kerry really wants Hanoi Jane coming to his defence?

Belize042,

You're right, that "homemade mortar tube" is b*llsh*t--nothing but a prop for the photographers. It looks like my 5th grade diarama during Book Fair Week.

First of all, that tube would take a 155mm round--about 100 lbs.

Secondly, what's with that tripod he's flashing, probably got it from the AP journalist who's taking the picture.

Lastly, Where ARE the rounds?! Did the guy in blue forget them?

I know what this is, this is where Hamas puts the video camera when they're gang raping a new recruit. Nothing says Arab gay porn like a boy wrapped in a green flag.

Hello UN? Can we say war crime? Hello? *crickets*

Seriously though, surrounding yourself around civilians while engaging in combat (and using homes as bases) must be a violation of international law. Does anyone know more about the specifics of what kinds of crimes we are seeing here?

As that masked man in the second picture wearing Pumas?

More photos here.

For one of the "youths", it works like this: If he gets hit when Israel returns fire, he gets his 72 babe-a-licious hotties and his family become local heroes and a shot at global media superstardom. While if Israel just hits the guy holding the gun, he's in an excellent position to grab the choicest body-parts. So it's really win-win all around.

#30 TAS

I wonder if Kerry really wants Hanoi Jane coming to his defence?

I'd have wondered whether Wesley Clark would want Michael Moore's endorsement, but it appeared he did.

That is emphatically NOT a mortar, which is an indirect fire weapon.

What is shown is an optically-directed wire-guided direct fire missile, similar in functionality to our TOW. It is far nastier and much faster to setup, aim, fire and then dee-dee.

The target is most lilkely a tank or armored vehicle.

#31 terp-law

First of all, that tube would take a 155mm round--about 100 lbs.

Read my post here. This is real, not a "prop"

... and get a shot at global media ...

Preview preview preview.

This appeared in AP's main story today about the Gaza fighting (picked up by most major newspapers):

During the fighting, dozens of youths stood in the streets watching the battle as gunfire whizzed by. At one point, a gunman picked up a young schoolboy by his backpack and whisked him out of the battle zone.

What a socially-conscious gunman! Don't these AP writers even look at their own photos?

Colt @27

Even though there were issues I felt Barbara Victor was overly pro-Palestinian on, she constantly referred to the "culture of death" in Pali society. In one instance, she talked about how she was shown the 40 day old son of a suicide bomber and the grandmother was talking about how the son would follow the father's footsteps in glory. Victor said she wanted to grab the child and run so that it could have a normal childhood where the penultimate accomplishment isn't dying while killing people.

In one case, the girl was pressured to blow herself up by her family, who wanted her to "redeem" a pregnancy out of wedlock.

Great book, overall, as if you can't tell I (enjoyed is the wrong word) am glad I read it.

Unfortunately, these kinds of photos (even if widely published) will not sway public opinion. Jews are forever the agressors, and Jews are forcing the hapless Palestinians into these situations. The moral equivalancies will never end.

Remember, all acts of Muslim aggression , no matter in which part of the world they occur, are ultimately blamed on Israel.

I saw some footage of the battle on CNN, and there was an interesting clip of a masked militant picking up a kid "in the line of fire" and moving him to a safer location. Anyone else see this?

Palestinians rush a corpse to hospital.

Strange people.

#14 BPP:

Well, 72 is 4x18. 18 is "chai" in Hebrew, the numerical equivalent of "life." Therefore, the death-worshipping splodeydopes obviously place a great deal of significance in a number that is the diametric opposite of what it would stand for to civilized people. 72 in Arab numerical symbolism simply means "deathdeathdeathdeath." So dead splodeydopes get to die and spend their time with dead death-whores. (By the way, did you know that "Allah hu akhbar" means "Allah is a mouse" in Hebrew?)

37 recon

What would an anti-tank round of that size do to a Merkava?

Why not kill them?

/plenty of room in hell

#41 militarybrat

It sounds like quite a book. I might have a look for it. I'm still waiting for 'Onward Muslim Soldiers', so it may have to wait.

Alternate view of the second photo

And another alternate view

I can only imagine the shit-storm Reuters would throw if this guy got shot.

#31 terp-law

I think it's a rocket launcher designed for remote-firing. There are wires coming out of the back of the tube. The guy in fatigues is just lining up the shot, and the boy in blue is protecting him while he aims. Mr. Fatigues can't fire in that position--he'd get killed by the blow-back.

I would suspect the drill is: everyone run out in the street like a car-swarm. Line up the shot while the IDF are trying to figure out who to target. Scatter. Fire.

There's no extra rounds because it's a one-shot deal. On the plus side, it must be easy for the IDF to avoid as long as they aren't pinned down.

43

The 3rd paragraph of this AP story plays up the "bravery" of a gunman who rescues a boy from the evil Jooos

Wow. These photos say it all.

#37 recon
See this pic. This is an improvised rocket, note the wires going off to the left. Those go to the firing point. In the picture above you can see asshole #2 setting up the wires. The "sight" on top of the tube appears to be taped on, most likely an optical sight to aim at a specific point, when an Israeli vehicle or personnel reach that point the terrorist at the end of the wire closes the switch.

From the AP story:

Medics said 12 Palestinians, including at least six gunmen and one policeman, were killed. Another three were shot dead in another raid on the southern Gaza refugee camp of Rafah, where the army said it hit four gunmen. Scores were wounded. Among the dead were Hani Abu Skhaila, a senior activist of the Hamas faction, at the forefront of suicide bombings during three years of conflict

Glad to see they caught at least a medium sized fish.

Let's play a guessing game: in which of our major dailies (NYT, WaPost, BoGlobe, ChiTrib, LAT, PhInq...)will these photos appear, and what captions will accompany them? (Have they ever shown how the Palis use children as shields? Will they now? Could they bring themselves to say so clearly and unambiguously in their captions/accompanying stories?)
"Dreaming the impossible dream."

#54 observer

The Washington Post will run this caption with the 2nd pic:

"In the Gaza Strip today, elements of the far-right IDF attacked a Palestinian school picnic..."

#46 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier
I know you weren't addressing me, but I do know a little about this. If, which it is not, a real anti-tank missile such as a TOW or it's ilk, even a Merkava dies. Unless it's hit on the front armor that is.

Not so brave after all.
What's Arabic for "Holy s--t! Those are real bullets!"

#56 reaganite

Many thanks. Is the device in your pic some kind of a jerry-rigged job? It looks like the scope on the top is held on with electrical tape.

#58 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier
As I posted on another thread, it appears to be an improvised rocket. I agree, the "sight" appears to be taped on.

In military jargon, it's called an "off route mine".

So fashionable, so well-fed and groomed and healthy looking for the Most Oppressed People Ever (MOPE). Poverty, my butt. I've seen worse poverty than that in the US, and none of us are exploding around innocent people.

When will the world see through the scam?

Looks like "Little Boy Blue" there has got some delusions of granduer. And what would Freud have to say about him standing like that on the "recieving" end of the rocket?

#56 reaganite

Unfortunately, the Falestinians don't need anything that sophisticated.

See here and here.

Bad news.

It will be interesting to see where the civilians position themselves once the Palestinian gun battles inevitably turn internecine. Of course, AFP, Reuters, et al. will be long gone once it's Hamas vs. Al Aqsa and the story can't be spun as Zionist colonial oppression of long-suffering indigenous Palestinians.

geesh to have taken those pic's and not have a few grenades? stupid bastard.

So this is the new war---not so new, but the tactics are a bit basic, eh?

Let's try and not sound like the British in 1775: "Those bloody colonists are shooting at us from behind trees and rocks! They don't rank-and-file! How bloody uncivilized! Outrageous!

Yeah, well---we won. Let's make sure these guys lose. Chivalry is dead, as far as I'm concerned. R.I.P.

Colt (#48),

Have you noticed in AP stories that when Israel attacks, palestinians are "killed" but when it's the a palestinian who attack, they report how many Israelis "died"?

What a thoroughly delightful people! I know, let's give them their own country and all would be just fine. Nurse, where's my thorazine? STAT!

What's this world coming to when a brave Palestinian warrior can't even take cover behind his doofus kid without getting criticized by a bunch of right-wing Zionist Entity sympathizers? I merely ask.

#62 Colt
While RPGs are able to disable MBTs including the M1. They rarely kill the crew. Bad as they are, they're not as bad as a real anti-tank missile.

To make matters more ludicrous, a report I recall reading on the Gaza battle (either today or yesterday) described one of the masked Palestinians pulling a boy out of the fighting, to safety.
Yet Hamas members inviting civilian deaths by hiding in crowds, as in the pictures above, apparently wasn't worth mentioning.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find that story again, though...

#59, reaganite

Do we have an effective, shoulder-fired, single-round anti-tank weapon--built after the slow death of the Viper in the early 1980s? I followed that story in great detail--but don't know what came after. (By effective I mean as one would have been against a Soviet tank of that era.)

So far no one has commented on the (usual) media slant.

That caption reads "Palestinian youths try to cover him from the sight of the forces."

Cover him from the sight? WTF? Should read "Shield him from opposition fire until he can line up a target. The children then fled so he could get the shot off."

#55, Jaffar

And those masked men are Gaza school crossing guards, protecting the children from those rogue IDF attackers. Heinous Hebrews!

"Why 72?"

72 young girls + 28 young boys = 100. Because in the ultimate muslim bordello, your sexual capacity is increased by 100 times.

#66 Geepers

Yes, I had. So has Honest Reporting.

Acts of Violence Against Palestinians:

Israel Tries to Kill Hamas Militant Leader June 10
Israeli Airstrike Kills Seven in Gaza June 12
Israeli Missile Kills Hamas Man; US Urges Restraint June 13
Israeli Helicopters Hit Second Gaza Target June 13
Israelis Kill Palestinian in Gaza Clash June 15
Israeli Troops Kill Top Hamas Official June 21
Israeli Tank Kills 3 Militants in Gaza - Witnesses June 22
Israeli Army Swoops in Nablus After Security Talks June 23
Israeli Troops Kill Two Hamas Militants in Gunbattle June 25
Israel Kills three Militants; Gaza Deal seen Close June 27
Israel Kills Militant, Frees 34 Prisoners July 3
Israeli Troops Shoot Dead Palestinian in W.Bank July 3
Israel Kills One in West Bank; Abbas Warns May Quit July 9
Israel Kills Palestinian; Egypt Tries to Save Truce July 9

Acts of Violence Against Israelis:

Bus Blows Up in Central Jerusalem June 11
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem Kills at least 16 June 11
Israeli Girl Killed, Fueling Cycle of Violence June 18
Suicide Bomber Kills One in North Israel June 19
One Dead After Palestinian Gunmen Ambush Car June 20

New West Bank Shooting Mars Truce July 1
Palestinian Gunman Mars Truce, Sharon, Abbas to Meet July 1
Blast Was Suicide Bombing, Violating Truce -Israel July 8
Islamic Jihad Cell Claims Bombing Despite Truce July 8

#69 reaganite

I see. Thanks.

#54 observer

Perhaps something like:

Palestinian schoolchildren, frozen in terror at the sight of an approaching "Israeli" tank (not seen in photo), seek refuge behind a valiant Hamas Freedom Fighter. "Israeli" sappers were seen demolishing a public library, the first built in Gaza since the outbreak of violence after "Israeli Prime Minister" Sharon's visit to the Dome of the Rock and Al Aksa Mosque, the third holiest sites in Islam.

Perhaps I can get a job writing editorials/captions for the AP as well.

#76, sewlow

Lovely job, but try BBC or Reuters---isn't "sappers" terribly British?

fallen humans.

#71 observer
I have company, so google "javelin anti tank missile". Awesome piece of kit!

#79, reaganite

Will check it out--thanks.

OT: "Aisha" is posting something in Arabic (English transliteration?)... on Hijab Ban thread...

#80 observer

Check out this and this and this.

#65 Linkawe - yes, we did hide behind trees, rocks and stone walls (as an infantry combat vet of Vietnam, it's inconcievable to me that we would do otherwise). But there is a HUGE difference, not just qualitative, between hiding behind trees, rocks and stone walls, and hiding behind children.
They are all cowardly scum and I wish them a quick (but slow, if you get my drift) agonizing death.

#82 Colt
I have the video of that series on my puter at work. Great show!

#84 reaganite

It's awesome, isn't it? Especially the last set of slides. That mofo is just gone!

What's more dispicable than the death-cult society of "Palestine"? How about Reuters:

Among the dead were Hani Abu Skhaila, a senior activist of the Hamas faction,

Activist? What, does he spend his days organizing petition drives and stapling flyers to telephone poles? If the senior splodeydope of Hamas ins't a terrorist in Reuterville, for crying out loud, who is. Besides George Bush, I mean.

While, the Pals are living in cesspools fomenting terrorism at every pass out comes this little ditty:

Seems like Queen Suha Arafat has been laundering over $1.27 MILLION per Month into her personal bank account.

Any questions? Like the Nazis, these Pals are nothing more than Mobsters with an ideology.

There's what, 5 million in Israel? Just let them emigrate en-masse to the US, and let them bulldoze the whole of Israel on the way out and leave the Palestinians to themselves in a mound of dust and rubble.

Probably an unpopular opinion but it removes any precarious positions held by the west with regards to Israel and the current West / Arab conflict. No more dead israelis, and no more aid to Israel or Egypt.

#88 Mad_Martian

Unpopular? You think moving 5 million people from their homeland to save money and improve relations with Araby would be unpopular? Are you a brain surgeon?

#82, Colt

Will read up. Finally, a worthy successor to the Panzerfaust. (Both Gavin and Abrams lamented that we had nothing that good, the Soviets copied it...)

Colt (#75),

Great link, thanks.

Colt (#82), reaganite (#84),

I'm hard to impress, but ... HOLY SHIT!

#88 mad martian

There's what, 5 million in Israel? Just let them emigrate en-masse to the US, and let them bulldoze the whole of Israel

Its much easier to repatriate the Jordoegytians to their respective countries.

I'm sorry folks. But I just scrolled through the 85 (at this point) comments on this thread and saw 14 of them having to do with "is that big enough for a 155mm round" or what's the best anti-tank round available now" and I can't take it.
The only issue here is the barbarous use of HUMAN CHILDREN to shield these cowardly murdering sons a bitches from the enemy. I normally don't get this cranked over a thread, but frankly, WHO GIVES A RAT'S ASS about what the best anit-tank weapon is? Anything less than absolute condemnation of these scumbags is not just irrelevant; it's irreverant, at best.
Wake up people - these cowards deserve NOTHING less than universal condemnation, not a lesson in weapons training.

Aha! What is that I spy in the center of each picture? An anonymous cipher in a hood; an MBO (Moving Black Object?). Quick! It's must be an alien. Shoot it! There, that's better.

MBOs are legitimate targets, especially when pointing guns or rocket launchers!

OT: Check out this "anti-kuffar" messageboard:

Why We Hate The Kuffar

Notice that they don't require verification to register to post, not that I would recommend anyone take advantage of such a thing ;-)

(Hat tip to Tom)

#89 Colt

You think moving 5 million people from their homeland to save money and improve relations with Araby would be unpopular? Are you a brain surgeon?

It seems rather unpopular for them to stay.

I see a lot of people lamenting the palestinian tactics, and the anger at the pro-Pal, anti-Israel stances of many in the world. Depending on who you ask, this is somewhat justified, and seems like history has gone on long enough to obscure the real truth behind the issue. I.e. there is no grand unified theory that is universally accepted as being the truth regarding the existance of Israel. Therefore, the notion of supporting Israel is shaky since its legitimacy is questionable.

Right now, there is a fight against radical Islam, and they are fueled by our support of Israel. Half of our support in the war is lost because of our support for Israel by those that believe there are 'good reasons' for 9/11 (i.e. support of Israel).

I'm not talking about backing out and letting them die, I'm talking about saving them all and bringing them back to the west. The pals can rejoice over their gain of a bunch of sand and they will then be stuck in the same situation as every other muslim state. Sitting in a pile of sand with no money and no job.

#94 realwest

I don't speak for anyone else, but I've seen/known about this stuff for nearly two years. It horrifies me(see #27), but at the same time I'm afraid I'm becoming numb to it. The photos above (and linked elsewhere on the thread), not to mention the buses and cafes, are the Arab M.O. Most of us are used to it now, and the topics drift.

FWIW, I don't mean to talk down, or be antagonistic.

Poll: Americans support security fence

An overwhelming majority of Americans back Israel's right to build a security fence to halt terrorism inside Israel, according to a new opinion poll released by the Washington-based Alliance for Research on National Security Issues.

The poll, which was conducted Jan. 23-25 by Ipsos-Public Affairs, found that 68% of respondents agreed, and 22% disagreed, that Israel has the right to build the fence "even if many other countries disagree."

In addition, 57% said Israel has the right to proceed with construction of the fence "even if the international court opposes it," and 51% say the fence is justified even if it encroaches on Palestinian land, compared to 32% who say it is not justified.

From Haaretz, what a Hamas improvised mortar looks like:

[Link: www.checkpoint-online.ch...]

My guess is the thing in the photo is an anti-personel device that fires nails, glass etc. Or maybe a bazoka type device. But for sure fired remotely by wires, so the guy is setting it up, and IDF is not so close, which half explains why the kids don't have the good sense to be elsewhere. IMHO

#97 Mad_Martian

That post demonstrates that you know dick about radical Islam, Israel or what surrender would achieve. Frankly, I don't have the patience to demonstrate where you're wrong.

OT -- Clearly, this is more important and what we should all be concerned about.

Red Cross Confident It Will See Saddam

GENEVA - The Red Cross has visited imprisoned officials of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s toppled regime and expressed confidence Wednesday that U.S. authorities will allow it to see the former Iraqi dictator "sooner rather than later."

"He's a POW and supposed to be like any POW," said Nada Doumani, a spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, which requested permission to visit Saddam soon after he was captured Dec. 13 and the United States declared him a prisoner of war.

OT.

American Pilot asks passengers to identify themselves if they are Chrisitans. Read more.

[Link: www.theage.com.au...]

Ralph

Its much easier to repatriate the Jordoegytians to their respective countries.

I assume you are referring to the Palestinians?

Not really,

My thoughts are that we drop support to Israel and offer everyone an 'out' whereby they can move to the west, and live a decent life. Those that wish to be rather subborn about the issue can stay.

This somehow wouldn't work with the Palestinians because it wouldn't be forced removal, Palestians don't use as much aid from the US, and you wouldn't want them emigrating to the US.

Mad_Martian, are you suggesting that the Jews leave Israel?

#105 zulubaby

Yes, because those 'stubborn' Jews are costing America money and making diplomacy hard for the Saud State Department. And that means we can't win the WoT. So those pesky Jews will just have to move.

#94, realwest

Your indignation is righteous and most of us share it, but I do not expect anything that even gets close to "universal condemnation." Hell, I don't even expect a sliver of condemnation. What we can look forward to are the usual weasel-worded calls for "restraint" on both sides and urgent pleas for a return to the "peace process."
From whom do you hope to get that "condemnation" outside this site, CAMERA, honestreporting and a few other organizations whose members or regulars have not swallowed Palestinian PR or deliberately taken Palestinian victimhood as their daily story line? (Rumsfeld may be one...but even he can't step outside the conventional hypocrisy too often.)

#98 Colt - you weren't talking down or being antagonistic. I've read too many of your posts in other threads to feel that way.
I guess it's just a combination of things, culminating in what you describe as becoming numb to it.
I meant (and mean) no offense, but I'm not numb to it, and wish others weren't as well.

I'm off, Reaganite is right. Rocket launcher. Kids as
shields until it is aimed. Mein got!

Colt (#106)

Thanks, I thought I was missing something.

Mad_Martian, please don't be an idiot.

That post demonstrates that you know dick about radical Islam, Israel or what surrender would achieve. Frankly, I don't have the patience to demonstrate where you're wrong.

Right now, any offensive made against Islam is being blamed as being the work of the Jews. Any anti-US stance is being justified by US support for acts against those poor palestinians.

Remove Israel from the equation and you remove all their excuses. Next 9/11 happens and they don't have a leg to stand on since their Pet palestinians are no longer being murdered by Jews.

I'm not talking about appeasement, like removing Israel will make it all go away. I'm talking about removing all their excuses for what they do. I don't doubt they will continue to do what they do but at least they can't brush it off as a response for US support of Israel.

As it is you can expect that more attacks will happen against the west (because of support for jews) while the media, the left, and the Arab world will just shrug their shoulders and tell us 'we shouldn't have supported genocidal Jews'. Remove Israel from the equation and they have no more excuses.

reaganite #56 - "such as a TOW or it's ilk, even a Merkava dies. Unless it's hit on the front armor that is."
Thanks for the insight into the 'off-route mine'.
I'd like to add that the TOW2B missile uses top-attack (to avoid heavy frontal armor) and dual warheads to defeat tanks. Also, the Joint Common Missile system (under development) is planned to replace TOW, Hellfire, and Maverick missiles.
TOW missiles, mmm, one of my favorite topics...
[Link: www.raytheon.com...]

Observer #71 - Javelin superceded Viper. We also use the Swedish AT4.
[Link: www.redstone.army.mil...]

[Link: www.raytheon.com...]

#104 Mad_Martian

And the advantage to us of selling out our one real ally in the area would be what, exactly? Why would the terrorists treat such an outcome as anything BUT a massive victory? Do you think the terrorists would not be coming for us next in such a case? (Especially if we took in the Israelis?) You another of RWC's faux-trolls?

10 Bill Green

TRANSFER is the only solution. Endless tit for tat is demoralizing, not effective, and does not address the root cause-- of the problem.

Couldnt agree more. The same remedy applies in the West as well, for sooner or later the Intifada will begin in Europe and America.

#108 realwest

I'm not numb to it, and wish others weren't as well.

Good, you shouldn't be. I wish I weren't.

I think I've got to the point where I know what these people are like, and just want to fight them. There's a point where you don't need or want to know anything about your enemy, just the best way to make them hurt.

And despite all that they still got their a$$ kicked.

What was it? 15 terrorists killed, 50 injured to 0 IDF ?

Mad_Martian (#111)

As it is you can expect that more attacks will happen against the west (because of support for jews) ...

Excuse me!? Now you're blaming the Jews for terrorism?

Remove Israel from the equation and they have no more excuses.

So you don't understand antisemitism, either.

#116 Outsider

Yup. A good day's work, from the sounds of things.

#111 Mad_Martian

I remind you that the "Great Satan" is the U.S.A.

I suggest you remove the U.S. first.

Mad_Martian, are you suggesting that the Jews leave Israel?

Yes, I'm suggesting that the Israel Palestian war cannot be won, and will go on ad nauseum.

As a result of that, the west will continue to be attacked and the blame for those attacks will be placed on support for Israel which is a shaky position to hold in the first place.

In the meantime, support for war against the real enemy is minimized because people focus on the israel issue and not the fact that these people are crazy.

#120 Mr Pol

LOL!

“Islam have got Crack” February 10, thanks to Charles, the 'lizardoid minions' and the swarm of

“angry and over-educated wasps who, rather than merely swarming over and stinging the object of their wrath, instead form up in the shape of a five-pound jackhammer and then it's all WHAM! WHAM!! WHAM!!! and you really do not want to be on the receiving end of that process.”

haha, i love it. congrats everyone.

#121 Mad_Martian

I'm suggesting that the Israel Palestian war cannot be won

Wrong.

the west will continue to be attacked and the blame for those attacks will be placed on support for Israel

Wrong.

Israel which is a shaky position to hold in the first place.

Wrong.

In the meantime, support for war against the real enemy is minimized because people focus on the israel issue and not the fact that these people are crazy.

Wrong.

Mad_Martian (#121)

So you believe that 9/11 happened because the US is friendly with Israel?

Colt #118

So you don't understand antisemitism, either.

Yes, I understand that, but what I am saying (and you are failing to understand) is that attacks on Jews on US soil is anti-semitism. Attacks on Jews in Israel is part of the disgreement about who's right it is to be there. The fact that this falls in line with their anti-semitism beliefs is just an added bonus. Although you'd have to wonder whether its the anti-semitism which drives the 'Oy thats my land' argument, or whether the fight for the land is made easier for them by the fact that they are killing jews.

In summary, attacks on jews in Israel can be justified by the media and the left if they can make the case that they stole arabic land. Attacks on Jews in New York or Europe are indefensible, and would do more to highlight the terrible muslim causes.

#111 Mad Maritian - this isn't some dumb fucking college debate society - I guarantee you that if we "eliminate support for jews" that WON'T stop the attacks.
They attack us because we are a democracy. We believe in, among other things, letting the governed do the governing AND in the right of people to worship (or not to worship) whatever religion they choose. This is anathma to Muslims. (click on my nic and it'll take you to my webblog that spells this out in much more detail).
We support Israel for a number of reasons, not the least of which is it is a democratic nation AND the ONLY democratic nation in that part of the world.
BTW (you can look it up, if you want to) there has NEVER been a war pitting democratic nations against democratic nations. The fear of the mullah's is the fear of their OWN people deciding what's best for them. Those in power want to remain in power; those who are not yet in power (e.g., Osama Bin Fucking Laden) want to be. That's all there really is to it. Wake the fuck up.

reaganite: geez, from your posts here, I'd almost swear you were some sort of, I dunno, explosive ordnance expert, or something...

I had no idea that an RPG could even disable a main battle tank like the Abrams. Cripes, that's not good news.

I did, however, have the opportunity to do a simulated test-fire of a Javelin! This, when I wandered into a US Army Association fair a couple of years ago, and somehow ended up in an area in which normally you were supposed to have a pass. (People make a lot of assumptions about you based on your haircut, I guess--nobody challenged me.) IIRC, another feature of the Javelin was that the firing control unit could be placed a fair distance away from the missile and launcher, and fired somewhat remotely, correct? This would improve survivability of the shooter.

(And yes, I hit my target in the simulated test-fire. Whoo-hoo!)

realwest
I'm sorry I offended you. I tend to talk about things I know. In this case, the abuse of these children was already being hammered home. I don't at work like to beat a dead horse. I thought it was important to identify what was really there with the ordnance.

#125

So you believe that 9/11 happened because the US is friendly with Israel?

Nooo, thats my point!

9/11 was not about Israel, but the public excuse was that it was about Israel :

US : Look what you did to the WTC you B'stards!
Muslims : Hey you go around supporting Israel!
Left Wing : The muslims have a point you know.
Right Wing : F*ck that, its just more terrorism from the cult of death in their quest to turn the world into one big Islamo-Fascist state!

Take Israel out of the issue, and what excuse do they have. How can the left, the media, europe, the rest of the world excuse such actions?

#126 Mad_Martian

What you don't understand about antisemitism is that it doesn't need a bloody excuse to manifest itself. What was it in the 30s? Jews run the banks, control the media, control the Soviets... This time it's "Jews stole our land, massacred our people..."

It's the same thing, and moving Jews has never made it go away.

That's what you don't understand.

Mad_Martian, in all my time on LGF I've never heard anything more ridiculous than what you're suggesting.

Attacks on Jews in New York or Europe are indefensible, and would do more to highlight the terrible muslim causes.

We'll abandon a country to illustrate that terrible Muslim cause. Fucking brilliant!

Mad_Martian--

About your moniker misnomer...I think what you meant was Craven Spineless Milksop_Martian. You want to uproot Isreal because you're afraid of scoldings from Europeans and because you think "Palestinians" are formidable adversaries? Learn the truth, buck up and fight 'em fair.

#130 Mad_Martian

Left Wing : The muslims have a point you know.
Anyone with sense: No they don't. Piss off.

Simple.

#126 Mad_Martian

In summary, attacks on jews in Israel can be justified by the media and the left if they can make the case that they stole arabic land. Attacks on Jews in New York or Europe are indefensible, and would do more to highlight the terrible muslim causes.

So an attack on a Jew in New York, London, Paris, Berlin, Los Angeles etc, is awful.

But everything listed here, and many more besides, is OK?

I'll be waiting for your resoponse, troll-child.

Transfer five million Jews to the USA?

1. What would James Baker say?
2. Is it a plot to send them all to Florida, so they can swing the next election? ("Jews for Buchanan?")
3. This is a story idea that didn't make it into "The Onion."

Colt graded this "notion" in #124.

And by the way--support for Israel is not a "shaky position." It is the "only position."

Mad_Martian (#130)

Take Israel out of the issue, and what excuse do they have. How can the left, the media, europe, the rest of the world excuse such actions?

Don't be ridiculous! You don't understand what anti-Semitism is, not at all. Colt's right about that.

#132 zulubaby

It's really something, isn't it? Strategic thinking dictates... surrender to Islamofascists, to demonstrate that they are Islamofascists to idiots who hate Jews.

#97 Mad_Martian

Therefore, the notion of supporting Israel is shaky since its legitimacy is questionable.

WTF??? The only people who question the legitimacy of Israel are those who call for its destruction.

Right now, there is a fight against radical Islam, and they are fueled by our support of Israel. Half of our support in the war is lost because of our support for Israel by those that believe there are 'good reasons' for 9/11 (i.e. support of Israel).

The canard that the fight against radical Islam is fueled by the US policy vis a vis Israel is one of the biggest canards ever concocted. Have you ever decided to investigate the history of the Middle East or Islam? or are your positions based upon L cubed academia members or talking points from DU, NYT, al-Guardian, ISM, Edward Said, and the PA?

The only "people" who believe that there are good reasons for 9/11 are those who for their political agenda (neo-communists, anarchists, fascists, etc) or those with an extreme dislike / jealousy of America's power (Old Europe, 3rd world despots looking to deflect attention and blame from their crimes) are the ones who in the name of a religion (Islam) wish to destroy all that are not believers and have been since 1979 at war with America.

If you are so naive to believe that a US abandonment of Israel will 1) bring peace to America and end the WoT, 2) bring peace to the Middle East - then you are beyond contempt will callousness and ignorance.

I'm not talking about backing out and letting them die, I'm talking about saving them all and bringing them back to the west. The pals can rejoice over their gain of a bunch of sand and they will then be stuck in the same situation as every other muslim state. Sitting in a pile of sand with no money and no job.

Mighty kind of you to not abandon 6 million to die at the hands of 100 million Arabs and Islamofascists. These people want to settle there. It is their land. They have built all that is there (and that is one of the reasons why the PA wants it) and they deserve to keep their homes and their freedom.

Frankly, if the Palestinians want to sit in the sand with no money and no job, they have the Gaza for that, they can take either the Sinai or the land east of the Jordan for that - and blame their leaders for their lot in life.

Appeasement and surrender never ever won a war. Abandoning ones friends and allies never ever won a nation respect.

#128 Occasional Reader
Some of my team mates worked on the system when is was being accepted by the military. They could answer your questions about the remote firing. Honestly, I don't know.

#130 Mad_Martian

...and after Israel they'll invoke the corrupting influence of Brittney Spear's navel, and you'll have her wearing a burkah...

It's no wonder they have no problem killing Jewish woman and children.They don't even care about their own people it's really sad people can be so cruel and heartless.

Colt, the mind boggles ...

#126 Colt

But what I am saying is that right now, they are hiding anti-semitic acts under the excuse that their land was stolen.

The world is focused on that one issue of Israel while the acts that go on domestically around the world are out of the public eye when in fact they are the acts that we should be focusing on. What good is it if we 'fix' the middle east only to find that while we were keeping an eye on the kids outside, the kids inside have already burnt the house down.

The minds of many are already skewed too far to see what is going on. Look at this thread. You have a bunch of kids hanging out with terrorists who are likely to get shot. If they are shot, it will be the fault of Israelis. The only option for Israel right now is lose/lose. The Palestinians are not villified enough around the world, and the media are the only ones offering the world a perspective on them and they love them so how is the truth supposed to get out. This is why I say the Israel issue will never be solved, because despite everything Israel has done for peace, and the little the PLO have done for peace, Israel is still the bad guy standing in the way of peace. And while everyone is busy watching the side show, OBL and his buddies are busy sneaking around behind you ready to take your wallets.

Not OT at all, really: I want to recommend to Everyone Out There the new novel by Robert Zubrin, The Holy Land. I have never read a sharper, nastier, or more blessedly anti-idiotarian satire on the subject of Israel, the modern Middle East, and the origins of terrorism.

Remember the mysterious ancient human remains, Kennewick Man? Well, imagine that the original inhabitants of the area in/around Kennewick, WA have since left Earth for deep space back in forgotten ancient times... only to return after barely surviving an attempt by one of the three mighty Galactic Empires to wipe them out. They have resettled in their original home, bringing with them awesome technologies, but the government is determined to drive the "aliens" out no matter how many Earth casualties it takes and how many innocent people have to suffer in squalid camps in the meantime: "They are Kennewickians and can only live in Kennewick" is the justification. Lots of incidents like the scenes above, as you might think...

I can't do it justice. Go. Read. Really.

#143 zulubaby

And s/he probably thinks that this is the best solution for everyone!

#131 Colt - well said and shorter than my own post at #127.
#129 Reaganite - you didn't offend me. Those cowardly sonsabitches offend me.
Sorry - I guess I'm having a REALLY off day. A good friend of mine committed suicide two days ago over something that happened to him in Vietnam; we had standing orders to shoot to kill any CHILDREN who approached US forces (asking for candy, coca-cola, whatever) if they didn't stop when told to (in Vietnamese, Camodian, etc.) because the fucking VC would strap command detonated mines to these kids. He was on sentry duty when one 6 year old (or so) kid approached, and wouldn't stop. His "buddy" couldn't bring himself to shoot the kid so he did. The damage an M-16 can do to a little kid is horrible; in this case the kid DID blow up; did have a command det explosive strapped to his back. Notwithstanding the fact that my friend "followed orders" and in fact did the right thing, he's been in a rubber room at a VA hospital since then. Until he found a way to exorcise his demons.
I'm sorry; motherfuckers who use kids like that and like the palianazi's all deserve to die - HORRIBLE DEATHS.

OT:

Driver for bin Laden in a Guantánamo cell

Mad_Martian (#144)

But what I am saying is that right now, they are hiding anti-semitic acts under the excuse that their land was stolen.

Who cares? Seriously, who the hell cares? Anti-Semites hate Jews, no matter where they live. There will always be an excuse for their Jew-hatred.

#144 Mad_Martian

How do you plan to handle the next excuse?

Okay, I just have to pile on here.

#97 Mad Martian:

Therefore, the notion of supporting Israel is shaky since its legitimacy is questionable.

Fine. Then what is it, in your opinion, that confers legitimacy upon a nation-state? How many others do you know of that were created by an explicit act of a body purporting to represent the "united nations" of the world? If you reply, "but they displaced others in the process"--well, by that test, how many nations in the Americas (or much of anywhere else, for that matter) are "legitimate"?

Israel had more internationally legalistic legimitation at its inception than any other nation-state. More importantly, the Israelis built that country; and what you create is yours.

"But what I am saying is that right now, they are hiding anti-semitic acts under the excuse that [insert excuse here]."

That's how antisemitism works. Got it?

Look, debunking their 'legitimate' claims has been done, though somehow you missed it. It does not matter what Jews give to antisemites, they will still be hated. Can you grasp that?

This is what artillery was made for.

the little the PLO have done for peace

Understatement of the day.

#144 Mad_Martian

Let me clue you in on a little secret, hotshot, since you seem so very concerned about the 'reasons' the death cult acts the way it does.

It's not about land.
Its' not about oppression.
It's not about indignity.
It's not about settlements.
It's not about humiliation.

Islam has not, and probaly will not ever, reconcile itself to modernity. Institutionally, it cannot deal with modern life. Give them this piece of land, or appease them in this way or that, and they will always come back for more.

There is no substitute for victory.

#147 realwest
I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I really can't say much more. He is another American hero.

#147 realwest

I'm really sorry to hear that. That's awful.

I said earlier:

I don't know enough history to say whether or not this is unprecedented. But Palestinian 'culture' is surely the pinnacle of barbarism.

I forgot the VC.

#111 mad_martian

Right now, any offensive made against Islam is being blamed as being the work of the Jews. Any anti-US stance is being justified by US support for acts against those poor palestinians.

And no one with a right mind believes any of it. Hell, in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and France - they believe that the Jews (Mossad) did the attack.

But the real key point is the "acts against those poor palestinians". If you really believe the "poor palestinians" are innocents in this - then your agenda is now in plain view.

#121 mad_martian

In the meantime, support for war against the real enemy is minimized because people focus on the israel issue and not the fact that these people are crazy.

The only one, other than the apologists and anti-semites focusing on the "Israel issue" is you. Regardless of what Israel (and the US) does or doesn't do - people will continue to hate both nations because that is what they were taught, what they believe, and those nations have / represent something that they can't have or don't want.

#126 mad_martian

In summary, attacks on jews in Israel can be justified by the media and the left if they can make the case that they stole arabic land.

No one has ever made the case that they stole arabic land. If you believe this, then you not only know nothing about the region and its history, but you are allied to those who make the attacks against Israel.

#130 Mad_martian

9/11 was not about Israel, but the public excuse was that it was about Israel :

No, the public excuse was not that it was about Israel except in Palestinian circles. The public rationale was the declaration of war against the US by radical islam that started 25 years ago yesterday. The reason was to hit the US and damage / humiliate the US.

Sheesh.

(#97) M_M

Therefore, the notion of supporting Israel is shaky since its legitimacy is questionable.

Shaky? Questionable legitimacy? Only in the eyes of Nazis, Muslims, and lazy, hypocritical Europeans and North Americans. Do you live in the U.S.? Just how do you think this country was founded? And what do you think of our policy toward African Americans from pre-inception until 1964? Does that put into question our legitimacy?

The notion of supporting Israel is just about as shaky as supporting America, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Honduras, Spain, Egypt, Lebanon, Tunisia, Russia, China, Germany, [insert country name here], etc...

You're either being intellectually lazy or intellecually dishonest.

OR (#151):

More importantly, the Israelis built that country; and what you create is yours.

And so is what you conquer in a just war.

#147 realwest

Condolences on the loss of your friend - another casualty of the Vietnam War - and another brave American who paid the ultimate price for their service to us all.

Mad_Martian

What are you saying?

That we give them X of what they want,
and when they still want war, we'll crush them?

Sorry but that doesn't work in real life,
once you go on the appeasement road, you're there for good. I know that perfectly as an Israeli.

I challange you to show one historic parrallel when this worked.

"The only option for Israel right now is lose/lose."

That is the symptom of a mentality many, perhaps most, Jews overcame after the Holocaust. Even considering the loss or abandonment of Israel opens the door to Hitler's final triumph. It is repugnant and unthinkable.

#158 Athos

No one has ever made the case that they stole arabic land.

I'm afraid 'they' have. Idiots.

#132

We'll abandon a country to illustrate that terrible Muslim cause. Fucking brilliant!

Think of it more as survival of the fittest. If they want to come to the west and be safe, more power to them.

You want to uproot Isreal because you're afraid of scoldings from Europeans and because you think "Palestinians" are formidable adversaries? Learn the truth, buck up and fight 'em fair.

I am from Europe, and spend a lot of time there. I see how they sympathize with Palestinians. Israel cannot win this war of popularity.

I'll be waiting for your resoponse, troll-child.

Way to miss the point. Come back when you can prove that each and every attack on an Israeli in Israel was anti-semitic and not part of a dispute over land. I don't care what you know, and what even I know, come back with what you can prove.

And by the way--support for Israel is not a "shaky position." It is the "only position."

Go ask an arab that and you will get a completely different opinion one what the 'only position is'. I'm not saying one way or another, all I am saying is I can probably produce several versions of history written from different points of view. Again, if anyone has a grand unified version of history that everyone agrees one, I'd love to see it (seriously, I'd like to read more on it).

However, as it stands, Israel has a right to exist, and the Palestinians want their palestine back. No matter who is right or wrong, there are many in this world that side with Palestinians.

It's really something, isn't it? Strategic thinking dictates... surrender to Islamofascists, to demonstrate that they are Islamofascists to idiots who hate Jews.

No, its like this,

Why pick a fight with someone because they have red hair when you can pick a fight with someone because they killed your son.

WTF??? The only people who question the legitimacy of Israel are those who call for its destruction.

On the contrary I don't (and neither am I a troll), but as mentioned several times in this thread (and not yet refuted) there are many versions of history depending on who you ask. There is no grand unified theory of history, even though I would welcome a link to one.

The canard that the fight against radical Islam is fueled by the US policy vis a vis Israel is one of the biggest canards ever concocted.

I agree, but that is the excuse that is being used, and will continue to be used. That is the reason people do not wholly support the WoT because to them, the Israel issue justifies the terrorism. Just look at how many lefty tards are out supporting Palestine!

Remove the Israel issue and they will see the issue in full light.

If you are so naive to believe that a US abandonment of Israel will 1) bring peace to America and end the WoT, 2) bring peace to the Middle East - then you are beyond contempt will callousness and ignorance.

Find anywhere that I claim this?

I said that abandoning Israel (or saving Israel depending on how you look at it) would take away their excuse for terrorism in the US. I DID NOT say it would halt terrorism, but it would remove their excuse. They are now committing terrorist acts without an excuse other than their diseased minds of course. How are CNN going to spin that? How are the lefty loons going to spin that?

...and after Israel they'll invoke the corrupting influence of Brittney Spear's navel, and you'll have her wearing a burkah...

And do you think that the act of crashing a plane into a building because of BS's navel will be defended around the world as much as 9/11 was? No, which is exactly my point. Remove the excuse, you make them out to be the murderous tards they are.

Mad_Martian (#165)

Israel cannot win this war of popularity.

So we should abandon the country and see if our ratings go up? You're full of shit.

Is this guy for real?

#165 Mad_Martian

Remove the excuse, you make them out to be the murderous tards they are.

That's an old European tradition, appeasement. It has been tried over and over again, and it never worked. Remember how many times European politicians said the same thing about Herr Hitler? He kept pushing and pushing, inventing new excuses and "reasonable" demands, until in the end, a line was drawn, and when that line was crossed, it was war.

What's the definition of insanity? :-)

But the real key point is the "acts against those poor palestinians". If you really believe the "poor palestinians" are innocents in this - then your agenda is now in plain view.

Sorry, 'poor palestinians' should have been in sarcasm "quotes". My point was that the rest of the world does indeed see them as 'poor palestinians'.

Have to dash, I will be back later...

Dear M_M -

Wha?

Please elaborate. We don't understand you.

Remove the excuse, you make them out to be the murderous tards they are.

When they say that Jews run America (which they do), shall we send the Jews to another country?

Mad Martian (Dam RatMania)

So you want to move 5m Israelis because of bogus excuses (by your own admission) used by their enemies.

Mr. Pol put it succinctly:

How do you plan to handle the next excuse?

People like that are not deterred by being proved wrong.

Please put some thought into this and also read up on how Israel was actually established, before distracting everyone here.

If they want to come to the west and be safe, more power to them.

That's actually not an unreasonable point.

Go ask an arab

And you lost it again.

#165 M-M

Israel cannot win this war of popularity.

Funny, but Israelis, Americans, and most people don't see this as a war of popularity.

Look, if in your heart, you don't believe the jews are entitled to a homeland, land that they had, and purchased large amounts back, and were granted the rest by the international community, and you believe that all Arafat, the PA, Hamas, Al-Aqsa, Al-Fatah, Hezbollah, etc want is a simple homeland in peace on Gaza and the West Bank - then you are probably as naive to believe that eliminating the state of Israel will stop terrorist attacks and islamic dreams of returning civilization to the 7th century.

But, you are also being intellectually dishonest with the facts and history.

You are advocating the same appeasement and lack of willpower than the French demonstrated in 1936-1940. You are ignoring the latest march into the Rhineland by the latest nazi-like cult. You are dealing with a culture that exists in the 7th - 12th century from a position of weakness not strength.

Frankly, there are a lot of people, that will not repeat the past mistakes, will not surrender or back away from a fight that is right and for the long betterment of people just because in your circle, in your limited exposure to press / media / education it's unpopular.

That perhaps is the most insulting of all of your callous comments to abandon Israel and tuck tail and run from the mad mullahs - because it's not popular to the people who also just happen to hate freedom and certain religions.

(#165) M_M

I am from Europe, and spend a lot of time there. I see how they sympathize with Palestinians. Israel cannot win this war of popularity.

Fortuantely, "Europe" doesn't have all that much say on the matter.

In a perfect world, it would be nice if Israel was "popular." At this stage, I'd settle for equal treatement.

However, it's not going anywhere to mollify you, or Europe.

Europe has enough to answer for, and absolutely zero moral high ground - which has never stopped a European from pontificating on morality.

spacetuna - I 2nd your reccomenadtion for "The Holy Land." I'm in the middle of it now, and sometimes laugh out loud while reading. Only it's not that funny when you realize how true it is.

#164 Colt

Only in "their" little minds they have.

#165 mad maroon

I am from Europe, and spend a lot of time there. I see how they sympathize with Palestinians. Israel cannot win this war of popularity.

To you, this is a high school popularity contest.FOAD

Oh my, from Europe. I hadn't seen that. Well, that makes it all better. Being from Europe lends a certain authenticity to the Jew-hatred.

#171 Colt

When they say that Jews run America (which they do), shall we send the Jews to another country?

You think Jews run America? ;-)

Just let them emigrate en-masse to the US, and let them bulldoze the whole of Israel on the way out and leave the Palestinians to themselves in a mound of dust and rubble.

Since we're talking crazy talk, I must confess that I have fantasized about winning the Galactic Lottery and -- after buying a unicorn ranch, a solid-gold bathtub full of cocaine, and a robot maid -- paying for the relocation of Israel's Jews to a new homeland in Arizona or something. (My parents just purchased a retirement home near Tucson, and they say the climate is lovely.)

The chief difference between my plan and mad_martian's is that I would leave Israel's non-military infrastructure intact -- irrigation systems, power plants, transportation, telecommunications, etc. Then I would pull out my stopwatch and see how long it would take the Palestinians to reduce themselves to a state of impoverished shitstained infighting squalor yet again , even given this massive materiel jump start courtesy of the departed JOOOS.

And how much longer after that it would take the international community to blame the collapse of the Democratic Republic of Palestine on the painful lingering scars of Zionism...

P.S. I guess I would invite the Druze to Arizona, too, if they wanted to come.

#165 M-M

I said that abandoning Israel (or saving Israel depending on how you look at it) would take away their excuse for terrorism in the US. I DID NOT say it would halt terrorism, but it would remove their excuse.

So the issue is not terrorism and the crime that it represents - it is the fact that they have an excuse for it?

So if Israel is taken out of the equation, what about the next excuse - something like - you're too wealthy as a nation, you're non believers, etc. Will you surrender another principle to take away another excuse? Or will you decide that the root problem is terrorism and the hatred that motivates that - and eliminate the terrorists, their leaders, and their faciliators.

What stopped Hitler - giving him what he wanted in Munich 1938 or having the world powers completely crush his country's ability to fight and his cult?

The issue isn't excuses or rationale - the issue are the acts themselves.

As for the multiple versions of history - one can either believe what they see or only see what they want to believe. Try this one [Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

Colt

Dealing with M-M is getting more ennervating and less amusing.
But--if the Jews are running America, where's my piece of the action? How come nobody told me? And what piece of America would they have offered an old curmudgeon? (No, part of New Jersey is not acceptable.)

I guess M-M was like a chunk of raw meat to many on the thread.
Victory through vegetables!

OT but I bought and watched Relentless.

All I can say is, "Holy crap those people are mad!" and I don't mean angry.

Also ot but I went to a Jewish Restaurant in Vancouver's Jewish area and had Shawrma(sp?). It was delicious. Had a nice chat with the owner of Sabra's who told me who was from Libya but moved to Israel in 1967 and has been in Canada for 11 years. Also enjoyed talking to our Israeli waitress who spoke incredible english and blushed greatly when I told her so. (She has only been here for four months and loves Vancouver)

We had a delcious Israeli white wine with lunch. I've never had such a full glass!

Can any of the minions on LGF point me to a good Israeli wine site? I'd like to start buying more Israeli products but have been told from a close friend that many of the white wines are real swill and I was lucky to have found a good one. ( Just wish I could remember what it was)

Mad_Martian sounds more like an Average_Belgian.

OT:'Bush and I were lieutenants'

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

Well, I was going to pile on Mad_Martian, but by the time I got to the bottom of the thread, I see that there is no need.

What a loon!

I have a naive question. I know it has been asked here before, but I've never read a satisfactory answer.

Why are the Israelis so weak in the PR department? I know they're up against the anti-Semitism of the Arabs, the Euros, and our media, but still...

I ask this in all humility as a perplexed, strong supporter of Israel.

By the way, I'd like to thank whomever it was who a week or two ago on one of the threads recommended (to someone else) the Joan Peters book "From Time Immemorial". What a classic!

Every "Mad (Clueless?) Resident of Mars" should read it carefully.

Jamie Irons

#187 Mar

Also ot but I went to a Jewish Restaurant in Vancouver's Jewish area and had Shawrma(sp?). It was delicious. Had a nice chat with the owner of Sabra's who told me who was from Libya but moved to Israel in 1967 and has been in Canada for 11 years.

Where is this restaurant. Maybe Fay and I should go this weekend.

Has anyone seen this?It is a supposed call by the charity group world visions to end violence against children in Israel and the Palestinian terroritories.
[Link: www.justice-and-peace.org...]

Mad_Martian

Israel is not about to lose.

The surrounding countries are interested in its existence as an arch-enemy.
They fear the palestinians. The Arab countries have created a beast that is completely out of control,
the only thing left to do is keep it occupied with attacking Israel.
Being a European you probably don't understand that.
Take a good look at the ME map, add the palestinian demographics outside of Israel.
What do you get? a Palestine that streches far beyond current day Israel - add part of the Sinai, entire Jordan, part of Lebanon... Do you now understand why they're not really interested in us going away?

So there goes your incentive of convincing me to leave.

And again, your strategy of capitulating, and then crushing them when they attack without reason - has no succesful historic precident.
Ariel Sharon, in his only good speech ever said:
"Israel will not be a second Chechoslovakia".

#191 Jamie Irons

I have a naive question. I know it has been asked here before, but I've never read a satisfactory answer.

That reminds me of the people who say that President Bush should do a better job of bringing his message to the American people. Nice idea, but it still has to go through ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, the NYT, etc. No matter what you do, the news outlets are going to spin it to fit their agenda.

Palestine was inhabited by a myriad of nomadic herdsmen when Abraham came from Mesopotamia. These people had no real cohesive sense of nationality. The only real nation state that existed in Palestine until the Roman conquest by Vespasian was Israel.

The area was practically vacated of Jews, especially those who had money or any authority. While there has always been a jewish presence in Palestine, the Romans and the invading moslems thinned the herd pretty much. I have even read that the Al Aqsa mosque was built by Jews for jewish worship and later the Islamic rulers changed and it was taken over by the moslems.

There is no historic evidence that Jerusalem, which was originally called Jebus and taken from the Jebusites was ever considered a "Holy" place by Islam in ancient times.

King David himself bought and paid for the Temple Mount.

I think if anyone should leave it is the Palestinians and that damnable Dome of the Rock.

Occasional Reader - nice shooting; the Javelin trainer is pretty cool; I appreciate the fact that the system is so easy to use that someone who is basically a good shot can take out a tank with two minutes training. Javelin doesn't have a remote fire capability.
[Link: www.raytheon.com...]

Mad_Martian, doesn't Al-Qaida want Spain back too? And the US under Islam? You are positing an argument that we in the US call moving the goalposts. This style of argument is used by leftists ad nauseam (i.e., Bush's National Guard service).

Any 'grand unified theory of history' would probably have to note that Jews have been in Israel for millenia. I personally have read several well-respected books that make that claim.

MM #165 - "I am from Europe"
I would never have guessed.
/ doh

#191 - Jamie Irons

RE: Israeli PR

I don't claim to understand it myself,
but think this is worth mentioning:

1) Arabs actually believe that their PR sucks and ours is excellent.
I know that for a fact, but can't explain it.
2) Arabs have conviction in their words. They actually believe all the lies they tell you. It's frightning sometimes.
3) Good Israeli speakers and orators have been pushed aside in favor of politicians - see the Abba Eban vs. Shimon Peres example.

Without looking at the posts first, am I very far off base by pointing out the typical framework that 'Roiders operates within:

"...in raids Israel said (my emphasis) were to root out militants behind attacks on Jewish settlements. REUTERS/Str

Jamie Irons (#191):

You're welcome.

RMM 192

Sabra is on 38 44 Oak. It is closed on Saturdays though and is kosher.

Could you find out what their House White was for me and email me or let me know on LGF? Would grealy appreciate it and don't worry I am not a cyber stalker:)

why I hate kaffers

Why isn't this an actual link anybody? I copied it into the link bar.

Anyway--back to #96--Is this just a pro-bestiality website?

It was narrated from Sulaymaan ibn Buraydah from his father that a man asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “O Messenger of Allaah, are there horses in Paradise?” He said, “If Allaah admits you to Paradise, any time you wish to be carried on a horse of red rubies that will fly with you wherever you want in Paradise, you will do that.” Another man asked him, “O Messenger of Allaah, will there be camels in Paradise?” and he did not say to him something like he said to his companion. He said, “If Allaah admits you to Paradise, you will have there whatever your heart desires.”

sorry--i didnt realize links gave you lots of gibberish on the comments screen--but worked when posted.

(#199) Outsider

1) Arabs actually believe that their PR sucks and ours is excellent.
I know that for a fact, but can't explain it.

Merely by virtue of the fact that there's no country called Palestine (let alone from the river to the sea) is proof of the superiority of the Zionist PR machine - at least in the Arabs' eyes.

Ever seen an Anti Defamation League of Israeli-sponsored commercial on U.S. television? They're barely worthy of cable access. And that against a steady stream of pics of suffering, "desparate" Palestinian children hurling rocks at tanks in Nablus (and other similar video)...

Hey, as long as the Arabs think they're losing...

One last post before I go:

The rocket shown in the first photo is called "Al-Bana",
this is the info I found about it:
"a 95 mm rocket with a TNT warhead, fired from a plastic pipe one metre in length."

Good night everyone.

#193 bobbie:
I started to look at that and got too hot under the collar--starting with their listing for Mohammed Al-Dura.

I've hated World Vision for a long time. This just reinforces it.

Outsider (#199):

Thanks!

And Q (#201):

Thanks to you, too! I love that book!

;-)

Jamie Irons

#11

he's aiming it, with help from the kid in blue's crotch and the space between his legs. that's... actually quite clever. I just hope it ends up blowing his balls off.

All in all I would say that it was a good day for the forces of civilization today.

War to the knife, knife to the hilt! Get them tomorrow IDF.

I just hope it ends up blowing his balls off.

What balls?

MAd_Martian

Fuck Europe (with the exceptio of some of the former Eastern Bloc countires). The only thing that Europe contributed to the world in the past century was Nazism, Marxism, and the Holocaust. Fuck Europe!

#214 Joel

Fuck Europe (with the exceptio of some of the former Eastern Bloc countires). The only thing that Europe contributed to the world in the past century was Nazism, Marxism, and the Holocaust. Fuck Europe!

We really don't have since they are doing to themselves just fine.

I will say this much I do think World Vision has done do alot of good for poor children over the years,but I have lost alot of the respect for them after this.I would not give any money to them either. I would rather give to compassion or feed the children.This is just what happens when charity groups become involved in politics.Frankly though,I am not surprised this happened.A lot of the relief and charity agencies work in the West Bank and Gaza with Palestinians.I also didn't like how they so enthusaitically endorsed the parents forum which is a group of beraved parents from both the Palestinians and Israelis.The ones from the Israeli side almost seem like they are more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause then to their deceased kids they go on and on about how their children died[were murdered] because of the occupation.So I just think that report was just too onesided and besides alot of the kids on the Palestinian side sadly died just like those kids in that picture and some even died throwing firebombs at Israeli soldiers.That is not the same thing as a terrorist shooting a five year old hiding under her parents bed.

I bet a couple of those kids in the background were hit by return gunfire and might have died,but they might have been killed by their own people,but no even cares about that just as long as they can villify the Israelis.

OT:
Snopes has the photo of Kerry at the Valley Forge rally.

We're not absolutely sure of the origins and dating of this photograph, which purports to show Massachusetts Senator (and the potential 2004 Democratic nominee for President) John Kerry at a September 1970 anti-war rally in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, but much evidence points to its authenticity [my emphasis]

#214, Joel

"Fuck Europe" is, by and large, OK with me, but: are you aware of what Germany, Austria, France contributed to literature. art, music, architecture, and scholarship between say 1890 and 1930?
Yes, fuck them for their dark and destructive ideologies and Jew hatred, but there were extraordinary contributions--many by Jews. Gone up in smoke.
I agree with you, but it's still possible to regret the loss of "what might have been." They did it to themselves, and are doing it again.

I couldn't leave this one alone:

Remove the excuse, you make them out to be the murderous tards they are.

There. Is. No. Excuse.

"You slaughtered thousands of men and women."
"Yes, well, here's our excuse..."
"Excuse me while I load this." Bang. Thud.

Oh, and you owe Cooper an apology for comparing splodeydopes to tards.

Oh, and you owe Cooper an apology for comparing splodeydopes to tards.

So funny :-)

Observer I agree with you. The sad thing is that Europe destoyed itself.

This shows you what Israel is facing. This shows you where most of the innocent casualties come from - terrorist hiding amongst them.

I wish the media will show this.

Ya'll need to stop arguing with and feeding this troll...

"On the contrary I don't (and neither am I a troll), but as mentioned several times in this thread (and not yet refuted) there are many versions of history depending on who you ask. There is no grand unified theory of history, even though I would welcome a link to one.:

The quote abpve says it all...it all depends on whose version of history you're talking about. Not the history that is factually documented with physical facts, but the one that comes off of the top of someone head. So even if you presented the legitmate documented facts of history s/he would argue with you until blue in the face.

No one has the right or the authority to demand that a nation give up her right to exist and to sustain herself. This poster is an appeaser and an arab apologist. He would be one of the first tools to be executed if the arabs won.

212 Re The Mass Psychology of Suicide Bombers

do you know what a 'paragraph' is?

#202 Mar

RadioMattM and I will check it out on Sunday. Will let you know via email if we find out the name of the wine. Did you go to Max's deli while you were in the area? It's not kosher but sells a lot of Jewish baked goods and other Jewish food. It's owned by a great guy I used to work with, he's a Native Indian (or whatever the proper pc term is for native indiginous peoples of North Amerca).

...from people who should just STFU

IDF chief Ya`alon during visit to Germany, rejects accusations that IDF soldiers are committing genocide

Haaretz

ploome (#227)

Unfuckingbelievable.

If I won the intergalactic lottery I would work out a way to put Israel on floaters and have it go to the caribean. Think of it as a free cruise.and its got all the warm weather, without the arab neighbors. Can you say win win?

Somewhat OT:
It's been so long since I looked at the Globe&Mail that I forgot why I stopped subscribing after 9/11. But in my search for how they would try to excuse Mr. Martin from the scandal, this poll question jumped right out at me:

Should all financial and political aid to Israel be cut off until a just peace with the Palestinians is in place?

I can't believe they would even raise this!!! If any question is asked, it should be "Should all financial and political aid to Palestinians be cut off until they stop sending splodeydopes to blow up civilians in restaurants and on buses?"

So now I remember. The other poll questions are real winners too.

#230 bltipper:

If any question is asked, it should be "Should all financial and political aid to Palestinians be cut off until they stop sending splodeydopes to blow up civilians in restaurants and on buses?"

After "busses" I would insert "...and Arafat stops diverting most of the funding to his wife in Paris"

(#227) ploome/(#228) zulubaby

Especially "Unfuckingbelievable" because Germans know whereof they speak in that department.

Their desire to shift guilt from they're past actions can be an overwhelming force.

Disgusting.

3000 Palestinians getting killed in the midst of a war they started, and some German idiots have the nerve to bring up the word genocide?

Typical.

#227 ploome

More important, from the same place:

01:21 House in Gush Katif settlement in Gaza Strip suffers heavy damage after being hit by Palestinian mortar shell

Increased attacks against Jewish towns in Gaza will trigger a "Defensive Shield"-sized operation.

Greetings Fay,

I have been to Max's many times as it is very close to RCMP HQ but prefer Sabra's or Kaplan's. The owner's of both Max's and Kaplan's are both very pro-police and always made our visits most welcome.

But hey, maybe Mad_Martian

has an idea we can use, an Israel Beta backup site.

I mean there is nothing but desert between Baker and Las Vegas, imagine if a few hundred Israelis made the whole thing bloom with watermelons the size of steamer trunks. And maybe a few hundred on the southern border patroling and growing agrave "tequilia" cactus.

But no more running.

"Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!" -Marvin the Martian

"Millions for Jew killing but not one cent for food"

- British slogan in support of Palestinian terror

SoCalJustice (#232)

Especially "Unfuckingbelievable" because Germans know whereof they speak in that department.

That's why I'm so pissed off about it. The chutzpah!

Disgusting.

Beyond disgusting.

Mr Pol (#233)

Bless our boys and let's go already!

And let's hope this time it includes that POS Rantisi. I know Arafat is too much to hope for but I'm itching to open that bottle of champagne in my fridge ...

PS

Any lizaroids in Vancouver who'd like to meet for coffee please email me.

I have grabbed these photos and have started a chain mail to hopefully propagate these pics across the internet...lets let as many people as possible see them.

Did anybody link to this yet?

Muslim Fifth Column at FBI? Muslim Arabic and Farsi translators celebrate 9-11, sabotage WoT

In a fair and perfect world, every story about Palestinian child bystanders killed or wounded by the IDF would have that second photograph as a qualifier.

A soldier would have to be a perfect shot to defend himself from that gunman without hitting a civilian.

Martian Dude-
That culture respects only brute strength. If you moved every Jew in the ME to "New Israel" in the desert in Arizona it would only encourage them to new levels of brutality.

Do the Islamomaniacs kill Christians in Nigeria or the Sudan because of Israel or Jews? Do they bomb Catholic churches in the Philippines because of the Pali's? Are Buddhist monks murdered in Thailand because of the Zionists?

#227, ploome

Who in Germany said what, when?

Was it that security conference, at which Rumsfeld answered a question about Israel?

Anything on this subject usually gets big coverage in the Vaterland.

I'm itching to open that bottle of champagne in my fridge ...

I'm itching to see what you get up to after downing that bottle . . .

Mar:
As this conversation is totally OT, I will email you.

246 Fay

4

Mar 247, not sure what "4" means but I have emailed you.

Not sure yet if anyone has linked to this yet in this or another thread:

Israel To Shorten West Bank Barrier Wall

It has more than just the story itself, but lots of useful links and commentary. Randall Parker is decidedly pro-barrier --for the USA/Mexico as well as Israel.

Dana Itah will be remembered for her energy, her gentle nature, and, most of all, for her love of life.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Eighteen months ago, she married Eilon, her boyfriend of four years, at the Olamei Nof wedding hall.

"It was an amazing celebration," recalls her brother Itzik Lavan, 23. "Over 700 guests danced the night away. Everyone was so delighted! People talk about the wedding to this day. Now all that's left is memories."

If you look at the whole series of photos, you will see one with a man carrying a wounded child into a hospital.

My first thought when seeing it after the other pics with the kids watching the firefight as if they were at the soccer game was, " The wounded child pic will make the papers and news wire services. The others will be slushpiled."

It's as if the liberal contigency in this country with their control of the media has a gun to the head of the nation saying, " I get my way or the hostage gets it."

What puzzles me is that most of the Jews I know are very liberal and are emphatically democratic.

Fay

Sorry but 4 is international 10 code for ok.

Didn't get an email from you but it is marlenemorton@hotmail.com

Mar 253, yep that's where I sent it...

OT:
You hear of "sleeper" agents. Here is a profile of a jailed one:

[Link: www.paktribune.com...]

Jews trying hard to top invention of the alarm clock prayer rug:

In a letter to Nature published on the journal's Website today and in its print edition slated for publication Thursday, Intel researchers based at the chipmaker's Santa Clara, Calif. headquarters and in Israel said they have achieved an all-silicon device that achieves high-speed optical phase modulation.

All in all a good day's work for the IDF. Yassin's bodyguard and a buddy of Arafat will not be down for breakfast.

Maine's Michael, LOL. I'll let you know ...

greetings everyone.

Man this thread is long!

Must decide... Finish work... read thread... finish work... read thread...

On why Useful Idiots (M_M) and other assorted Leftist terror apologists will NEVER change:

"A useful idiot remains an idiot long after he's no longer useful."

Read that somewhere yesterday on Arutz-7.

#260 Dr. Bean

As a relative newcomer here, here's my advice: print out a thread you like, and take it to the john. When you emerge, refresh the thread for more! ;-)

(Yes, it's addictive, so I have to avoid it altogether for a couple of days at a time and just be choosy about threads.)

Just for once, take some responsibility, dismantle Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and stop whining and begging already:

Palestinians Urge Japan to Get Involved

OT...anyone see this?

FM Shalom Uninjured in New Delhi Terror Attack
(IsraelNN.com) Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and members of his entourage escaped injuries following what is being described as a major terror attack in New Delhi, Israel Radio reported. Some reports indicated Mr. Shalom was in the general area targeted in the attack. No additional information is available at this time.

[Link: www.datelineisrael.com...]

#259 zulubaby

Mi bonita amiga. Aqui ?

RWC, LOL!

#266 evariste

Muchos gracias mi companyero. ( I really don't know if that makes sense at all. english translation-Thank you very much my friend/compadre)

I am gonna sart working on some rules for Friday. And also, if your on tommorow I want to run some arabic by you to see if the translation is even close >-)

And also, do you have those TPS reports?

Ever seen a grown man naked?

Like films about gladiators?

Ever been to a Turkish prison?

Right Wing Conspirator, OMG you're hilarious!

WAAAY OT: The Margaret Thatcher look is in this year

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

RWC, LOL! Word, work on 'em, I've been thinking about some rules too. We'll compare notes tomorrow :-)
As for your questions:
-no, I don't work in Office Space
-yes, I've been to the gym
-depends, if the movie doesn't suck
-no, WTF?
I must say that is the bizarrest set of questions I have yet been asked.

(Before you all start considering me an OBL incarnate troll, the next post defines my stance)

So we should abandon the country and see if our ratings go up? You're full of shit.

No, what I was carelessly trying to say (as I hurried out the door earlier) was that Israel, through actions of self defence and bad media representation, is rather unpopular. As long as people strike the US and claim it is in the name of an anti-israel stance, those who dislike Israel will agree with the causes of the terrorist act. When I say they lost the war of popularity, I mean that its nearly impossible to bring the world to a point where they will side with Israel. Just look at all the St Pancake followers, do you think they will reach the point where they will think 'Hey its not right to blow up Jews'? I am definitely not saying they are right, I'm just saying how it is.

When they say that Jews run America (which they do), shall we send the Jews to another country?

Will the Arabs claim the US to be a part of Arab lands stolen from them like they claim over Israel? Will they be able to claim that attacks on the US are because the US land was stolen from them? No, which is exactly the point.

Put it another way...I know how fond some of the US is of IRA terrorists. IRA attacked mainland Britain because of the British presence in Ireland. If Britain pulls out of Ireland completely, the terrorist attacks would stop right? If the IRA continued to attack Britain, then you would have to agree that those attacks were not about the British presence in Ireland, but something else? Furthermore, US support for the IRA would probably drop since the original purpose of the attacks (which many Irish-Americans agreed with) had been resolved.

When Osama did the Twin Towers, his original bitch was about our troops in Saudi Arabia, not the Palestinian issue. We've relocated those troops, so al Qaeda's all warm and fuzzy, now, aren't they?

Yes, which incidentally, I happen to believe was the main purpose for invading Iraq (so we could remove troops from Saudi Arabia). You are correct, good point, OBL did indeed add a shitload of reasons for 9/11 after the fact when he thought he might be in deep shit. However, many non-arabs still cling to the excuse of the Palestine/Israel conflict and therefore justify it for that reason.

After you've given them Israel, best be prepared to give up half of Spain, next.

Can you see the non-arab freaks with pro-arab stances in this country supporting terrorism over the refusal to hand over spain? Can you see Europe promoting spain being handed over to Arab states? Can you see the UN supporting a case for the handing over of Spain?

'cause Muslims have the right to live under Sharia Law, anywhere they live.

First of all, rest assured, I have no muslim buddies. I'd much rather see the ME turned to glass with a couple of holes to drill the oil out of.
But your other point is correct, they jihad for the reasons mentioned, but they use the excuse of Israel.

Welcome to Dhimmitude, dude.

Its a bit early to be casting ad-homs when you haven't even understood the point yet.

As for :

How do you plan to handle the next excuse?

What is the next excuse?

Please put some thought into this and also read up on how Israel was actually established, before distracting everyone here.

Which version would you like me to read? The Pro-Palestinian version or the Pro-Jewish version? I have appealed a number of times for a non-biased version of events and no-one has responded. I'm assuming that since you have all read it ( and not just the biased versions) one of you might have a link to one.

as naive to believe that eliminating the state of Israel will stop terrorist attacks and islamic dreams of returning civilization to the 7th century.

Not what I said...Remove the excuse of Israel and they will find it hard to justify Jihad and whatever trivial excuses they use will not generate as much support abroad.

That perhaps is the most insulting of all of your callous comments to abandon Israel and tuck tail and run from the mad mullahs -

I'm not talking about running from mad mullahs. I'm talking about retreating back so when we head back at them they have been revealed not as 'freedom fighters' for the pitiful palestinians, but the evil psychos they are intent on converting the world.
Do you think the US has a better chance in this fight with only half of the rest of the worlds support or with the support of the rest of the world fighting a commonly agreed on bunch of loons? Support from the rest of the world will be thin while they believe it is all about Israel.

At this stage, I'd settle for equal treatement.

I wholly agree, recently I have been taken aback by the level of anti-semitism both in the UK and in the US by both individuals and media houses. The BBC recently fired Kilroy-Silk (TV presenter) for a newspaper column criticizing Arabs. By the same measure, some other person affiliated with the BBC had made a comment about Jews and was not fired. Ditto with the politician in the US claiming that Jews caused 9/11 which illustrated my very point.

Oh my, from Europe. I hadn't seen that. Well, that makes it all better. Being from Europe lends a certain authenticity to the Jew-hatred.

And where did I say I hated Jews? You on the other hand seem to have a certain degree of Euro-Hatred.

Which is why I have called for the 24-hour continuous bombardment of the West Bank and Gaza every time a 'splodeydope goes boom. Evolution in action.

And I would agree with that resolution fully.

Either the Palestinians will learn to live with the Israelis, or there won't be any more Palestinians.

Again, I agree, except the rest of the world doesn't see it that way.

We really don't have since they are doing to themselves just fine.

Unfortunately yes, everyone over there is being jolly nice about all the mad mullahs screaming for death to their host nations . But hey, no worse than the US citizens hoping their boys get killed in Iraq.

Ya'll need to stop arguing with and feeding this troll...

Ah yes, I disagree with you, therefore I am a troll...

Not the history that is factually documented with physical facts, but the one that comes off of the top of someone head.

History only explains what happened. It doesn't always say who is right and who is wrong.

This poster is an appeaser and an arab apologist. He would be one of the first tools to be executed if the arabs won.

Believe you me mate, I'd already be dead from fighting them off. Arab apologist? Where did I apologize for them or make excuses for them? Where did I suggest in any way that they were in the right? You obviously haven't been reading.

Do the Islamomaniacs kill Christians in Nigeria or the Sudan because of Israel or Jews? Do they bomb Catholic churches in the Philippines because of the Pali's? Are Buddhist monks murdered in Thailand because of the Zionists?

No, but why don't we talk about that? Because we are too fixated on Israel.

While you all seem deliciously gung-ho, the fact that unpopular wars will never be waged for long seems to be the missing part of the equation. As time goes on, the WoT will become more unpopular. If the WoT becomes unpopular enough to unseat Bush, Kerry will be in charge and chances are he will scale back the war effort big time. Iraq collapses into civil war, the Wahhabists are spurred on, the US is villified for its failures (no doubt at great delight to those around the world)

Its one thing to start a war, its another to maintain support for it. The US has mastered the first part, but is severely lacking in the second part right now. People have forgotten 9/11. Not many people here have, I know I haven't, but many have. The media chooses not to show us the threat to the West of Wahhabism, and of crazed the loons that wish to destroy the West either literally or culturally. Just look at Europe where only now in France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands are they starting to realize that the enemy is now already within. However, as long as this war is being portrayed as being about Israel, the true meanings of it will escape the masses around the world and the world leaders will still cast Islam as a 'Religion of Peace' while they let them into their countries and plot their downfall.

I don't support abandoning Israel, I was merely throwing it out there in terms of strategy for winning this war by showing the true face of the Islamo-fascists. Israel sees the true face every day, but many think Israel is wrong and therefore deserve it. So how do you combat that? Better PR for Israel? That probably won't go far in a Politically Correct civilization which often gives blind sympathy to anyone who claims to be victimized. In addition, the latent anti-semitism in Europe provides Israel with an uphill struggle as it is.

So since many of you were all so DU-like in your responses, how do you maintain support for a war that is becoming unpopular? The media is obviously not interested in portraying the true face of Islam, indeed the media are probably more interested right now in making the WoT unpopular. You can only fire so many bullets before the masses will elect someone that will make them stop.

Mad Martian, I got an even better idea. Lets take all the Hindus and move them to Arabia, and take all the Arabs and move them to Australia. That'll solve that pesky India-Pakistan dispute AND the Arab-Israeli conflict! And then just for good measure we can take all the Americans and move them to China, and the Chinese can all go to America (fine, the stubborn ones can stay). I think that'll solve all our problems.

Mad_Martian, I don't think you're a troll but I think your ideas are ridiculous and I still think you're full of shit.

I think your ideas are ridiculous and I still think you're full of shit.

So you think Bush can stay in power, and run the WoT even it become hideously unpopular?

I'm not the one who thinks that waking up on a November morn with Kerry being elected will be good for the WoT and the security of the west.

More seriously MM, did you ever consider that the Israelis might not be too crazy about the idea of being deported en masse from their homeland?

Lets take all the Hindus and move...

When was the last time the India-Pakistan issue was cited as a reason for terrorism?

#270 evariste

Hold on. Do not tell me you don't know where those quotes came from. OK. Not even gonna wait until you respond, The movie 'Airplane.' Tell me that you have seen it. For all that is sacred and holy TELL ME THAT YOU HAVE SEEN IT !!!

#268 zulubaby

Wow. Just had to go back by evaristes (any grammarian. Please help :-0 ) post to make sure I answered him. And then I noticed yours. (what the hell is wrong with me - 268 comes before 270 - beautiful blonde south african/ jewish (don't take offense if that is offensive at all. please) princess or a... I guess a dude. (I would apologize here, buyt evariste knows I am f'ing with him.)

All --- G'night sweethearts...well it's time to go... Dooo do do do do dooo

Have a g'night mates. Catch you when the digaradoo hits the barney???

Mad_Martian: Fuck what's right, do what's popular.

So you think Bush can stay in power, and run the WoT even it become hideously unpopular?

I don't know what the solution is but evacuating an entire country (Israel) is just plain stupid. WTF are you on about? Why are you so hung up on popularity contests anyway?

More seriously MM, did you ever consider that the Israelis might not be too crazy about the idea of being deported en masse from their homeland?

Yes, I had thought of that. I liken it to a friend who decides to move to a bad neighborhood simply because he was born their originally. Because its so rough, I invite him to come live with me, but he decides to stay there. OK, I think, he can live where he chooses to.
However, next day I get a phone call that its getting rough around there, people harassing him for being on their turf. He's bought a gun for self defence, but he wondered if I could buy him a security alarm and pay the installments on it, and hire a few bodyguards to stay with him (at my expense).

Now, I'm all for letting him stay where he likes, but if he's going to pass up staying at my place, there's no way I'm going to pay for his choice to stay there when he can move somewhere else. Would you?

#96

Thanks for the link, funny as hell. See my reply to that thread (yes, I signed up)