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Daniel Pipes at UC Berkeley

Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 5:48:53 pm PST

Berkeley’s Daily Californian has a shamefully biased and whitewashed account of Daniel Pipes’ speech earlier this week at UC Berkeley: Staunch Israel Backer Attacks ‘Militant’ Islam. (Hat tip: Brenda Walker.)

But to see how bad it really was in that zoo, let’s turn to this report from ChronWatch’s Cinnamon Stillwell: Fascism at UC Berkeley: Muslim Student Association Disrupts Daniel Pipes Lecture. (Hat tip: Ethel Carol.)

It began as soon as Pipes stepped up to the podium.  In fact, before he’d spoken one word, someone had to be escorted outside because he wouldn’t calm down.  Then jeering, giggling, hissing, booing, and finally, the orchestrated chanting of ”racist” and ”Zionist,” (among other things) starting drowning out the lecture.  However, the rest of the audience gave as good as it got and the event turned out to be more of a shouting and clapping match between Muslims and Jews than anything else.

The tension in the air was thick, tempers were rising, and yet amidst it all, Pipes kept his cool.  He managed to deliver his lecture, which covered the War on Terrorism, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and Iraq, but he was forced to stop many times.  Pipes spoke directly to the protesters on several occasions, pointing out the irony of their undemocratic behavior, as well as mentioning casually that it is only when he speaks at college campuses that he requires such heavy security.  He even brought up the fact that members of the MSA are currently under investigation for possible ties to terrorism.

Their reaction to his speech was telling.

When Pipes brought up the need to support moderate Muslims over those who subscribe to militant Islam, they booed.

When he brought up the need to improve the status of women in Islamic countries, they booed.

When he warned that peace in the Middle East would never be achieved as long as the Palestinians continued to subscribe to a ”cult of death,” they booed.

When he mentioned Middle East Studies professors who have been arrested under terrorism charges, they booed.

When he discussed the need to combat Islamic terrorism, they booed.

When he referred to the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks as subscribers to militant Islam, they booed and shouted ”Zionism”—no doubt a reference to the myth that Jews were behind the attacks.

When Pipes brought up CampusWatch.org, the website he founded to provide a voice for students feeling oppressed by their leftist professors, they shouted out ”McCarthyism” and of course ”racist” yet again.

And when he mentioned Iraqis’ ”liberation” from Saddam Hussein’s tyranny, they booed even louder.

”I’m sure the Iraqis were much better off under Saddam Hussein,” Pipes responded sarcastically.

When it came time for the question and answer period, the group of MSA students all got up together and left, chanting ”racist” and ”Zionist” over and over again.  However, a few stragglers were left in the audience and they eventually had to be escorted outside by the police because of their unruly behavior.  One of them was the man who had been babbling outside about Gandhi.  But this time he got down to basics, calling Pipes ”a racist Jew.”  Sadly, it took several more of these epithets before he was forcibly removed.

After the lecture, many Jews in the audience were visibly shaken.  For those who hadn’t yet encountered Muslim hostility up close and personal, it was an eye-opening experience.  Perhaps not all of UC Berkeley’s Muslim students subscribe to the anti-Semitic views of the MSA, but if that’s the case, they certainly didn’t make their voices heard that evening.

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216 comments

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1 Deathberg  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 3:53:45pm

Charles - as soon as I saw your headline, I thought, "Oh God, why did he even bother going?" This is Berkley we're talking about here, not some bastion of free speech. Pipes of all people should have known that.

2 Tim K  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 3:54:08pm

I can only hope that the Homeland Security people were taking pictures of the troublemakers. Hopefully they can be exported back to there Middle-East shit-holes from whence they came.

3 AlexC  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 3:56:39pm

This is surprising because?
Of the the Islamofascists want to shut him up.
He tells the truth.
It's the same with the Leftists (they are good bed-mates).. can't argue on the facts, so you get louder.
Eventually you can't hear anything but them.
That's if they don't physically attack you first!

4 AlexC  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 3:57:10pm

*darn!*
...of course the Islamofascists....

5 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:00:10pm

heh...best to go into the rats nest and smoke them out and show the world for what they are

6 Judith  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:00:16pm

Ouch!

Irshad Manji is coming to Winnipeg to speak. I wonder if we'll be subjected to the same thing.

7 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:00:29pm
After the lecture, many Jews in the audience were visibly shaken. For those who hadn’t yet encountered Muslim hostility up close and personal, it was an eye-opening experience.

Imagine what it must be like living in France.

8 theDevil!  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:01:55pm

He mentioned clean water, and they booed.

He mentioned life on earth, and they booed.


Then, they blocked the doors and burned the place to the ground. And no one booed.


/muslims are coming to hell

9 AG in Houston  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:04:00pm

I would be willing to provide security for Dan Pipes and stand in between the savages and civilized people.

10 Norcal Prof  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:04:21pm

Pipes speaking about militant islam at Berkeley is like speaking about militant islam in the Gaza Strip.

No real difference.

11 okimutt  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:04:34pm

I think Arnold should look long and hard at what the
taxpayers of CA are funding here. Time to balance the
budget on the backs of "the oppressed." That or send
the silly asses to a bastion of Islamic purity.

12 Deathberg  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:04:35pm

And Gandhi was a fascist asshole - like most leftists today, only moreso. Ask any Hindu nationalist. He was responsible for this whole India/Pakistan mess. Equating him with Martin Luther King Jr. is disrespectful.

13 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:05:30pm

AG in Houston (#9)

Mamba Jamba! We should send Mr Pol too.

14 Bivalve  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:06:41pm

Someone remind me what the purpose of a university is, please? (Let alone a *public* university...)

15 AG in Houston  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:06:45pm

It would be a blast.

16 Montaigne's Cat  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:06:58pm

Daniel Pipes' father Richard Pipes is a specialist in Russia and the Soviet Union. He was labelled academically untrustworthy and a rabid anti-Communist because he did not automatically believe the official pronouncements of the Soviets and their American communist apologists. Insted of believing he did historical and archival research. Turns out he was right - gulags, forced starvations, purges, etc etc. His son Daniel Pipes is equally skeptical about the Islamists and he is also branded as a rabid bigot. He also consults orignal sources that the believers wish to whitewash. Guess what - he's right, too.

17 J.D.  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:08:32pm

#16 Montagne's Cat

I did not know that. Thanks.

18 Mardukhai  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:08:37pm

This is nothing compared to MSA's behavior at UC's Irvine campus.

I've been saying it for 35 years, these guys should be expelled and deported.

We don't need them.

But getting it through to administrators requires a civil rights lawsuit. Any California lawyers want to have a go. Actually, it shouldn't be all that hard. Just hearing the word "lawsuit" forced the Irvine administrators into action. Why not Berkeley and other campuses?

19 Iron Fist  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:11:06pm

#9 AG in Houston,

As would I, sir.

As would I.

20 militant_hindu  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:11:23pm

"And Gandhi was a fascist asshole - like most leftists today, only moreso. Ask any Hindu nationalist. He was responsible for this whole India/Pakistan mess. Equating him with Martin Luther King Jr. is disrespectful. "

you're a blatant dumbass. Dont talk about what you dont know about.

i'm a Hindu nationalist, and he's the father of our nation. The people responsible for the India/Pakistan mess were the British. Gandhi was virulently against the partition, and now you can stfu.

21 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:11:36pm
The tension in the air was thick, tempers were rising, and yet amidst it all, Pipes kept his cool.

He is the last word in cool.

22 AG in Houston  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:12:36pm

I gotta side with the militant hindu on this one...

23 WJA  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:13:04pm

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said this about Israel and Zionism:

[Link: www.jewish-history.com...]

On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

24 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:13:58pm

Here I am the "Smack Face FANTASY Person"...So dont tell ME this isnt a Smack Face Situation if you ever saw one. Pick a candidate..

Beatte Klausfeld..where are you?

25 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:14:04pm

What is MSA? I'm guessing Muslim Students' Association or some such thing.

26 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:14:35pm
27 Observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:14:57pm

I was at the event. Many people could not get in because the auditorium was full with those whose main purpose was to disrupt the lecture and eventually leave.
Pipes handled himself beautifully, never lost his composure in the face of this uncivilized behavior and just mocked their hypocricy. When a speaker gets booed for criticizing militant Islam, you know there's something wrong. I expected this reaction going into the event, having spent a lot of time on campus, but the circus put on by these clowns exceeded my expectations. One 'liberal' began interupting before Pipes said one word, and this continued till the vast majority of them left the lecture hall.

28 TempestMan  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:16:03pm

Well, I was there, too, and here is an excerpt of some of a long essay I wrote to send to my friends and family about the affair who wanted to know what I had seen:

Without discussing Mr. Pipes' talk too much, I do feel a need to comment on the audience. As one might expect, the protestors could not control themselves and there were numerous outbursts and other such disruptions. Whenever the word "Islam" was spoken by Mr. Pipes for any reason, the protestors were set off to chant various cliched slogans or calling Mr. Pipes a racist. Slogans included such gems as, "Zionism is racism," "Death to Zionism," "Israel out of Palestine," and even one exclamation that Orthodox Judaism was the equivalent of Nazism. The last time I checked and as silly as I personally think Orthodox Judaism is, the sect is not violent nor does it seek to force its will on others by violent means. Supporters consistently tried to calm the disruptors down through mild admonishments such as, "Let him speak," or "Please be quiet." or "Please sit down." Usually and expectedly, this did not work and one of more protestors had to be escorted out.

As the talk progressed to the Arab-Israeli conflict, various audience members would rise up to denounce Mr. Pipes. Again, they chanted "Racist," "Zionist," etc. Mr. Pipes claimed (and I agree with him) that diplomacy in this situation has failed and should no longer even be attempted as it will only be counterproductive. He correctly placed the onus of the failure of The Oslo accords of 1993 completely on Arafat and the "Palestinans" (the protestors did not like hearing that). The documented facts show that Israel made concession after concession in accordance with the agreement while the "Palestinians" ignored their obligations (namely to recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop attacking it) and used the agreement to rearm themselves and begin an indoctrination of hate and suicide into their culture directed at destroying Israel. Again, many of the protestors could not handle these truths and once again took to disruptive chants, and many were escorted out.

Also, I observed that about 90% of the protestors were young adults probably between 21-25 years of age. What does this say about our young adult population I wonder? I particularly focused on one young man seated 2 rows in front of me. I am unsure of his origins...he appeared to be a mixed type, perhaps from an interracial marriage. He was wearing the typical "Palestinian" scarf and was quite vocal throughout the talk, although it was mainly a reactionary, automated response to anything that he perceived as inflammatory. He mainly screamed "Death to Zionism" and "Zionism is racism" many times as Mr. Pipes was speaking, and called Mr. Pipes a racist over and over again. What occurred to me as I watched him was that this is the sort of person who ensures that this conflict will continue. He is so consumed with hate, racism, and a sheer ignorance that he cannot be changed. The saddest part is that the very racism that he accuses Mr. Pipes (and others no doubt) of harboring describes his very own mindset, but he will never understand that simple truth. How he came to be this way, I cannot say having not known him or how he was raised, but it was quite evident that nothing and no one would ever be able to help him. He will continue to develop into a person who irrationally hates Jews, Israel, and all other ways of life that do not conform to his own narrow views until he mercifully expires. While there is no guarantee, it is certainly within reason to believe that he may one day take up arms against innocent people whose only "crime" is being Jewish or otherwise non-Muslim.

29 skeeter  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:20:03pm

#1 deathberg:

I'm not sure where you'd find it now, but John Leo had a great column yesterday that addressed the whole lefty-campus speech police issue, and it actually appears that many college administrators are folding up like cheap card tables when sued by groups like FIRE.

I say all that merely to point out that it just may be that groups like the MSA, who once had de facto protection from those oh-so-sensitive college presidents, are finally getting a taste of what free speech actually means.

This turn of events makes me happy, because I can't be the only one thinking that some happy federal campers are making lists and checking them twice, and that the days of conflating naked islamism with civil rights just may be numbered.

30 Baldy  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:20:18pm

He is one gutsy man. It really is awful what has become of our universities.

31 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:20:26pm

MSA of the US & Canada

I found this article on their website: From Nazis to Schuller to Arabs: Former neo-Nazi leader Bill Baker now speaks on the Muslim circuit

Bill Baker has resurfaced as a frequent guest speaker at Muslim functions across North America despite articles in OC Weekly in 2002 that outed the Laguna Hills resident as the former head of the neo-Nazi Populist Party and led to his ouster as a close associate to the Reverend Robert Schuller of Garden Grove’s Crystal Cathedral.

I'm sure he doesn't get heckled at his speaking engagements.

32 Deathberg  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:20:44pm
33 Observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:21:12pm

#25
Your guess is correct.

34 Yehudit  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:21:46pm
35 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:22:45pm

TempestMan (#28)

Thanks for that.

He mainly screamed "Death to Zionism" and "Zionism is racism" many times as Mr. Pipes was speaking, and called Mr. Pipes a racist over and over again.

How do you manage to control your temper? I am afraid of how I would react.

36 Islamophobe  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:24:02pm

This is my first post to this site. I simply want to express my appreciation fot the posting of this article and many other timely pieces that expose the nature of Islam today. I, for one, believe that Islam cannot withstand critical scrutiny and that because that is the case, violence is unavoidable in deaaling with it. When liberals try the be nice to them treatment, it only encourages militancy and the belief that they are winning. Pipes tries to encourage the moderates to speak out, but their voices sure seem to be muted. The basic problem is the Islamic scriptures themselves. Yeah, I know, they preach tolerance, as long as you submit to second-class status and accept the gradual destruction of your own religion. To hell with them.

37 Allah's Helper  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:26:53pm

The happenings at this event just reaffirm what we all already know:

1. The academic left is the most intolerant group in American society.

2. Young Muslims on liberal campuses are allowed, in fact encouraged, to spew the most hateful venom at anyone who dares criticize anything about their religion/culture.

3. Murderous hatred of Jews and/or Israel is perfectly acceptable on a campus like Berkeley.

I'm honestly surprised no one tried to physically attack Pipes while he was speaking.

38 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:27:18pm
39 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:28:07pm

Tempest Man: I'm chilled to read this account of what you experienced at the Daniel Pipes "event" at Berkley. DID you take PICTURES? At least stills..Better yet..Next time, try to at least borrow a Video Camera and catch the HATE and see where you can show it. I want Americans to actually see that "person" near you..Let them HEAR what he was shouting. My GAWD..I actually lived to see it AGAIN and starting up in America.

I kinda wonder how Aurrrnooollld would react if he saw and heard what YOU saw and heard. A passing thought....

40 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:28:22pm

Observer (#33)

Are you new? We have someone who posts as observer but he's all lowercase ...

41 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:29:13pm

... and he refers to me by name, not the number of my post :-)

42 ploome  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:29:34pm
43 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:30:01pm
44 daniel  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:30:04pm

The first-hand observer accounts are very enlightening. It sounds like the shouters were not all of what you might call Arab descent. It would be great to see a video of this, and make it required viewing in Berkeley and all other colleges - like maybe in Real Life 101.

45 Observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:31:15pm

#35
It is a fair question. How DO you control your temper? However, having gone to Berkeley for 4 years, I would either be in jail or in a mental institution if every time these clowns called Zionism racism, I lost my temper. A couple of time I did lose my temper -- when these clowns compared Zionism and Jews to Nazism. Berkeley is not very friendly for pro-Israel folk, but it builds character.

46 Iron Fist  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:31:42pm

#34 Yehudit,

Still OT, but did you catch the topic of their current poll?

Do you agree with a movie distributor's decision to cancel an exhibit of Hitler's art in Tokyo?


Gah.

Hitler was less an artist than I am (although mine is a performance art :-)

A display of tripe celebrating Hitler, is what they are really talking about.

And a substantive majority (58.3% as I write this) disagree.

Disgusting.

47 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:32:28pm
48 Observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:33:24pm

Zulubaby,

I have been reading the forum for quite sometime, but rarely post anything. If the name is taken, I will not post under it.

49 gawdamman  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:34:09pm

I know that this is extremely non-P.C. but I say it's time to start kickin' their fucking asses out of OUR country.....if they don't leave- shoot the miserable [bigoted word]ed bastards and the wannabe communist punks that support them!

50 skeeter  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:34:32pm

#38 Rayra:

I agree entirely with the escort 'em the heck on outta here thing, but I'm just happy to see them get all huffy when shouting "racist" doesn't automatically end a debate or any other sort of speech they dislike. The more hysterical they become, the easier it is to spot 'em.

51 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:35:17pm

Observer (#45)

Berkeley is not very friendly for pro-Israel folk, but it builds character.

Feh, there are some experiences I can live without. I've only ever hit someone once and that was when I was a kid and a boy in my class told me that Hitler didn't kill enough Jews. I don't lose my temper often but when I do ... head for the hills. Problem is that this is exactly the kind of thing that sparks my temper.

52 USFBul  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:35:50pm

OT: got one in the Army. He should have the "Black Jack Pershing" treatment for treason. Actual treason.
an Al-Queda of one.

53 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:36:01pm

Observer: You too..Take Pictures..If you have a Video Camera..stick it in a bag with a hole cut out for the lense, prop it up in the bag....and let it gather the "evidence". For G-d sakes most people DONT realize exactly how discisting this is. LET THEM SEE IT. LET THEM HEAR IT.

54 Baldy  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:36:32pm

I must make a confession. Years ago, I was involved with a local ACT-UP type group, and I joined with others in chanting "Shame! Shame! Shame!", during speeches by so-called enemies. I was wrong then, and wish I had never behaved that way.

(One of the only redeeming qualities of my formerly radical days was that I was on the right side on the issues of Communism and Israel; and for that crime, I was called a skin-head, a facist, a racist and various other lovely names...)

55 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:38:51pm

Observer (#48)

Post away! But yeah, it's confusing 'cos we already have an observer :-)

56 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:42:06pm

Rayra (#47)

I'd probably get myself killed.

57 SoCalJustice  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:42:16pm

(#44) daniel

It sounds like the shouters were not all of what you might call Arab descent.

They're most likely mostly not of Arab descent.

Just another day in the life of the Hacky Sack Intifada.

58 Jersey Devil  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:42:22pm

I have two co-workers who atended UC-Berkeley. They both report that the atmosphere of LLL intolerance permanently effected them to the point that they will not believe or tolerate any of the views espoused by their ilk.

As noted, many people were visibly shaken by the behavior of the LLL and MSA during Pipe's talk. Now the scales have fallen from their eyes, and they see with a true light the grinning death's head behind "antizionism."

There are more friends of Israel in Berkeley tonight than there were this morning: thank you MSA.

59 AG in Houston  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:42:37pm

No Zulubaby

I would be there.

60 Observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:43:14pm

Zulubaby (#51)

I learned to ignore these clowns. It is impossible to prove anything to them, and is not effective to waste time and nerves talking to the brainwashed. Once in a while, I still get caught up, like after Pipes' lecture. I have met many people on campus who could careless about the conflict, but despise these clowns for blocking the campus, disrupting class, and taking over buildings.

61 Baldy  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:43:43pm

#49 gaw---

I know that this is extremely non-P.C. but I say it's time to start kickin' their fucking asses out of OUR country.....if they don't leave- shoot the miserable [bigoted word]ed bastards and the wannabe communist punks that support them!

I agree with deporting enemies, but not vigilantism.

62 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:44:42pm

Mamba Jamba :-)

63 Yael  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:45:31pm

We must transform our reactions to this into even greater determination not to submit to fear, fascism or dhimmitude. It would be a great thing if Daniel Pipes got a surge in subscribers to his free weekly email list right about now.

[Link: www.dhimmitude.org...] --Top Left

64 Yael  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:48:18pm

#63

Whoops, that was supposed to be [Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

65 rumcrook  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:48:49pm

wow deathberg, so gandhi was a butt monkey for islam... interesting reading.

especially the odd way he selectively preached non-violence even to the point of horrible cruelty and mass murder for jews, hindu's and the english (against hitler) but never spoke out against muslim violence, and in fact made opologies for muslim violence.....

66 Observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:49:10pm

Many protesters were of Arabic descent. However, there were a significant number of whites among them, our fellow Jews from an organization called Tzedek, who wrote an open letter to the Daily Cal expressing their concern about the speech. Although Tzedek was censured by Hillel for writing the letter, they are affiliated with Hillel and receive money from Hillel for their anti-Israel events.

67 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:50:04pm

Islamofascists, Jew haters, left-wing ideologues – the tolerance is breath-taking.

the hecklers are like spoiled bratty demon spawned children.

68 EE  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:52:31pm

The Islamofascists are moving toward ... toward what?

In the summer of 1920, soon after the party had added "National Socialist" to the name of the "German Workers' Party" and became the National Socialist German Workers' Party, or N.S.D.A.P., as it was now to be familiarly known, Hitler organized a bunch of rough-neck war veterans into "stron-arm" squads, Ordnertruppe, under the command of Emil Maurice, an ex-convict and watchmaker. On October 5, 1921, after camouflaging themselves for a short time as the "Gymnastic and Sprots Division" of the party to escape suppression by the Berlin government, they were officially named the Sturmabtailung, from which the name S.A. came. The storm troopers, outfitted in brown uniforms, were recruited largely from the freebooters of the free corps and placed under the command of Johann Ulrich Klintzich, an aide of the notorious Captain Ehrhardt, who had recently been released from imprisonment in connection with the murder of Erzberger.
These uniformed rowdies, not content to keep order at Nazi meetings, soon took to breaking up those of other parties.


--- The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, by William L. Shirer.

The specialty of Hitler's brownshirts, the storm troopers, the Sturmabteilung, became breaking up the meetings of other parties.

And here we see the MSA, the Muslim SturmAbteilung?, attempting to follow the lead of their model, Hitler's SturmAbteilung, and seeking to disrupt meetings of groups that do not follow the Islamofascist party line.

Such is university life today at Berkeley.

69 KevinV  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:52:46pm

Cal is an experience I will never forget.

It took me, a very left-wing 20-something, and turned me into a very right-wing 30-something when I was done with it.

Experiences like this abound at Cal. One really gets a chance to see the shit close up, in such a way that your nose gets rubbed in it.

Pipes is a brave man, and, I guarantee it, at least one Cal leftie, like me long ago, is seething about what an idiot Pipes is and thinking...

"Damn that racist, reactionary pig. He was crazy! He was insufferable. Oh, how I hate him! And, goddamn it, he....he....he had a point."

Second Thoughts always begin thusly.

70 Mardukhai  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:53:08pm

The Daily Californian says that it subscribes to the code of ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists.

"Code of Ethics" and "Professional Journalists"? Talk about a double oxymoron.

71 Iron Fist  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:57:24pm

#51 zulubabe,


I've only ever hit someone once and that was when I was a kid and a boy in my class told me that Hitler didn't kill enough Jews.


You’ve only ever hit someone once?!? You are so deprived.

Wow. I couldn't even begin to enumerate the people I've hit, or, for that matter, been hit by. As a fun example, I had a few fights with one of our new kyu ranks a couple of weeks ago. Chick's a White Belt in Isshinryu, but a Black Belt in Wado Ryu (different styles of karate). I damn near had to dislocate her shoulder to submit her in one of the fights.

That was fun :-)

Sometimes ya just need to hit someone.

Sometimes, someone just needs to be hit. Sounds like dude needed to be hit.

So did some of these hecklers.

72 R.A.M.  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:58:36pm

I'm completely fed up with these people. I've tried to remain open minded through this whole thing. Through the attack on my country, to watching the Israelis have to sort out their dead on a weekly basis, and having to listen to the left rant about "zionism" and racism every chance they get. I can no longer, or will no longer, hide my utter hatred for these animals.

73 Model4  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 4:58:56pm

#53 Leah: Yep. Was Pipes filming his speech and the audience? Idiotic to not do so. Think of how powerful it would be for the sleepy public to see the hatred, disrespect and silencing going on. With his government position, surely the resources to host the footage shouldn't be a problem.

Some brave student from Berkely should ask the administration to codify exactly how disruptive students are allowed to be in deliberately trying to prevent speakers from being heard or treated with dignity. Can you throw paint, fruit or knives? Can you bring in bullhorns? Whistles? Stacks of amplifiers and speakers?

Oh, you people know who you are: Sounds like a strong showing by the peaceful, loving moderate Muslims who hunger and thirst for the words of any wise man who stands for ending the violence and bigotry that have overtaking Islam. And this audience was full of free Americans and our guests, presumably not living in 1/10th the poverty in the Ummah.

I understand the desire to believe in a statistically significant moderate Muslim movement. I'm talking about people who care enough to raise their voices and attend a meeting or march or two. Of course when I was younger I had the desire to believe that pinning a pillowcase on my shoulders would allow me to fly like Superman. But now that I'm all grown up, I don't act like I believe that and expect any respect from a sane, mature audience.

74 Austin  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:00:29pm

Back when I was a Lefty, I would also heckle the speakers shamelessly. When Phyliss Schlafly came to speak we hissed and booed and guffawed until she became justifiably angry. It was funny then, but I honestly hang my head in shame now.

But even so, the hissing and hooting doesn't compare to openly insulting the speaker the way they did Pipes. Those were simpler times.

75 Camel Prophet  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:08:59pm

On July 14, 2001, I downloaded this page from the MSA-USC website. It is still posted, even though Taliban is in Pakistan, making contacts with the Oil-Patch State Department:
[Link: www.usc.edu...]

In service of Pakistan-Saudi Arabia, the State Dept. permitted Taliban's "ambassador" (only Pigistan and Jihad-Arabia recognized those animals) to come to USC to delight a warm MSA audience. Said MSA pigs - some of whom are probably infiltrating federal institutions, under the "faith based initiatives" suicide mantra - repeated cheered this "ambassador" who was harboring [bigoted word]s who were being trained in the production and use of WMD, and cheered loudest when he defended the destruction of the Buddhist statues.
[Link: www.usc.edu...]

If the Muslim indulgers have been paid to conduct themselves with as little dignity as possible, then they have earned every cent.

THIS FOLLY WILL PASS

76 okimutt  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:13:05pm

OT- but USS Clueless is slicing and dicing the Caliphate.
Seems they don't like the new American Sat. channel-
even though it isn't broadcasting yet. Television=
GPS bombs. Zionism= racism. It's the same sheet of
music all over the world- too bad we need the oil
because the conductor is getting a free pass.

77 Ol' Southern Boy  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:15:13pm

Slighty OT: What the heck does the federal Department of Education do to justify its funding? If postmodernism, with all its attendant PC crap (which fosters such behaviors as seen at the Pipes event), is such a cancer on western civilization in general, and the US in particular, why isn't the Department of Education advocating something different, and using (or perhaps witholding) federal funding as a weapon?

It ought to become US education policy to replace postmodernism in our schools and colleges with something more amenable that fosters clear thinking and supports, not subverts, democracy.

If the Republicans can't kill the Department of Education (IIRC, they've tried), why not put it to better use?

I think this would be a longer term investment in the War on Terror. Not unlike the National Security Education Act which came out as a result of Sputnik.

(For you younger folks: when the Soviets launched Sputnik, the US feared we were getting behind education-wise [heck, the Soviets were supposedly stupid and backward, and they launched a freakin' satellite!], so the Feds made a lot of money available for student loans to keep the US ahead in the brain race).

78 closed  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:21:38pm

#72 R.A.M.:

I agree with what you're saying, to a degree. While careful who I categorize as an animal, I think that any of these people would safely qualify for the designation.

It's as though there's some great God of Tolerance that says I have to extend courtesy to people who applaud murdering innocent civilians in Israel. Fuck the lot of 'em.

With the overwhelming amount of anti-Israel propaganda the Arab media (as well as American) puts out, you almost have to stop in this debate, clear your head, and try to look at what's happening with new eyes. Our society, or a large section of it, has decided to take sides with people who strap on explosives, walk into a bus with children and civilians on it and proceed to mangle and kill as many as possible. It's as simple as that.

If anyone 'tolerates' these suicide bombers or gives me a "yes, it's bad, but..." then I have nothing else to say to them because to me they are, as you said, nothing but animals.

79 Sir Lurksalot  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:25:12pm

There's an easy solution.

Next time Pipes wants to speak somehwere just firebomb a car outside the venue with some fake body parts strewn throughout.

Then he can speak uninterrupted during the inevitable swarm.

80 Stop Hillary  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:26:57pm

Berkeley is the home of neo-Fascism.

Where was brave Al Franken to wrestle all these enemies of free speech to the ground?

81 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:28:58pm

Model4--Good for him. I want people to see and hear this in its raw form..and then..THEN...if they dont care, if they make mealy mouth excuses for it, if they dont recognize the danger to Jews first and then to the rest of America, then we will have to consider what we will have to do..Thats it. Its only going to get WORSE.. Thats the way it always goes when these things get started. They have their own natural momentum IF it isn't stopped in its tracks.

Lets just see.

Remember what we thought when people asked.."Can it happen again?"...we kinda sorta dismissed it. As it goes now..all over the world...when the big groups kiss and make up....What will happen THEN? Populations of the world have been TRAINED that Jews are "racists" and "murderers" and well......No one said NO...and thats just where WE stand now.

A little preview of another aspect of this from ANOTHER group....the Danny Kaye TV Movie...?????? ahhhhhhh shooot. Ill probably think of the name the second I post this. I know some of you know the title...Well watch it to see what can happen to your fellow citizens..And F. the ACLU..It WAS fire in the theater. (actually the issue wasnt fire in the theater..they used another issue)

SKOKIE....or however you spell it. Was that the name of the movie? Might be.

82 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:29:47pm

Iron Fist, I don't hit people but I'd make an exception if one these Jew-haters got in my face.

83 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:30:43pm

Stop Hillary (#80)

Where was brave Al Franken to wrestle all these enemies of free speech to the ground?

LOL!!

84 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:30:48pm

#77 Ol' Southern Boy

Even the National Security Education Program has been subverted my the LLL. Try getting a grant from this program to major in ME studies or a middle easter language, and let it be known you're a supporter of Israel. Your professors will sink your grade so fast it will make your head spin (which puts your grant at risk) I'm majoring in Arabic, and when the dhimminis or MSAssholes do the 'zionism is racism' or 'end the occupation' dance, I just have to bite my tongue and let my blood boil.

85 Mr Conservative  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:34:19pm

Those damm idiotarian LLL bastards at Berkly can just FOAD!!!

86 quesnay  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:35:36pm

My friend Jeff & I were actually at the lecture. We were not at all visibly shaken, as this sort of behaviour was to be expected. What the press did not report was the chanting of "Seig Heil" by the radicals. In fact, I don't think that any of the protesters had actually read Pipes. In fact most of the radicals do not even attend Berkeley. Pipes was great as he did not lose his cool and was very dignified in his responses. In fact, most of the students that we observed on campus seemed more worried about their course load and grades than small cadre of "Brownshirts" that gets more attention than they deserve.

87 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:36:51pm

Zulu: If it is good enough for Beate Klarsfeld, its good enough for ME. THE SMACK heard round the world. Kiss this woman for doing what she did..and WE should do it tooooo, while filming, or in front of a news outlet Camera.

88 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:39:24pm

#86..The Nazi Salute? That does for ME. See...Beate was RIGHT to do what she did and we should think about occasions where this same solution to the immediate problem is appropriate as well.

89 Model4  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:40:22pm

#86 quesnay:

In fact, most of the students that we observed on campus seemed more worried about their course load and grades than small cadre of "Brownshirts" that gets more attention than they deserve.

Lots of folks believe we'd be better off had Brownshirts been paid more attention to sooner.

90 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:41:07pm

Leah, absolutely.

91 marek  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:43:54pm

ploome #42

Thanks - truly amazing.

92 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:44:07pm

Zulu: I love that woman. Shes my Hero.

93 Model4  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:46:29pm

Way OT: Now that was an interesting piece of spam. "Please submit credit card information to update your AOL account." Sent to my address (Model4)@(not AOL).(not com). They're not even trying anymore. When you're disappointed by even a spammer's lack of work ethic, surely the End Times are near.

94 Brenda  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:47:57pm

I went but couldn't get in because I had a backpack -- that's how security was. My normal level of walking-around armaments includes a knife and some spray stuff, so I figured there was no way they would let me in, even though I had nothing even vaguely bomb-like.

Even so, the shreiking was pretty thick when I was just prowling around the entrance -- Muz students with distinctly unpleasant attitudes, awful signs, idiotic giant puppet things lurking about. Just the nastiest vibes you can imagine.

I cannot imagine speaking to a group like that. What a warrior Pipes is. He is fearless.

95 anti-fascism (of all forms)  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:49:00pm

#20 militant_hindu

Gonna partake of the shaving and vandalism this year?

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

96 Chris  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:49:01pm

Here is a link to the Muslim Student Association at UC Berkeley [Link: msa.berkeley.edu...]
At the bottom of their home page you can find the email addresses of the officers of the MSA. Let them know what you think about there showing.

97 gymnast  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:49:02pm

#89, Model 4. Elegantly said.

98 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:50:00pm

OT...again. I got a thing today that said I definatley won $2500. It wanted info name, etc...and it continued with wanting my password..So I didnt fill it out. Anyone get that?

99 Camel Prophet  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:50:30pm

OT:
Euro-parliament' Socialists caught padding expense accounts. Solution: turn on accuser:

[Link: www.euobserver.com...]

100 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:52:33pm

#96 Chris

The bigwig of the Berkeley, one Mr. Abdul Rahman Jandali, has granted himself the title of President/Emir.

Not.Making.This.Up.

101 militant_hindu  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:53:45pm

#32, #42

all 3 sites contain charges too numerous to refute in a single sentence, but I shall begin with the African one.

To begin with, let me get this out of the way- Gandhi was never perfect. He was never a saint. He was, however, a brilliant politician, often eccentric personally, and essentially a very, very good man.

The charge of racism is ridiculous to the point of superfluousness. To begin with, this is 1903. Even the most educated, liberalized Americans/Europeans regard Africans as inferior, even if they adamantly oppose slavery and such. Gandhi is a product of a culture that is 1200 years older than Caesar, and such racial bias was not uncommon in India, and is still present somewhat to this day.

Regardless, Gandhi was no neo-nazi. I can demonize Lincoln in the same approach they are taking to Gandhi, but I wont, because even though Lincoln always regarded blacks and other races as inferior, there is no doubt in my mind that he was a great man.

Furthermore, the charge that Gandhi was an elitist, upper caste Hindu who belittled the lower castes is blatantly, totally false. Gandhi is the single biggest reason for the abolition of the caste system in India today. Later in his life, he was thrown out of his caste by the caste elders for leaving India and also consorting with outcastes. He practically lived among what were called the "untouchables". He was their single biggest champion, and as a result untouchables are guaranteed representation in Parliament, and the caste system has been crumbling fast in India.

If you really require proof that Gandhi was a champion of the lower castes- and this is a fact universally noted about him- tell me, as i will provide the links. I have read several autobiographies of Gandhi.

Finally, there is a segment within India that has tried to discredit Gandhi. Gandhi's not perfect, but this militarist segment- which has risen in the form of the BJP party- espouses a form of nationalistic Hinduism that is hardly as tolerant as Gandhi's (and much of the traditional) Hinduism was. The militaristic Hindu tradition in India does go back a long, long way- to the first Indian resistance against the last great (and the first truly oppressive) Mughal emperor, Aurangzeb- but thats another matter entirely.

102 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:54:01pm

#100 Me.

Ahem. As I should have said:

The bigwig of the Berkeley MSA, one Mr. Abdul Rahman Jandali, has granted himself the title of President/Emir.

103 militant_hindu  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:57:17pm

#95
"#20 militant_hindu

Gonna partake of the shaving and vandalism this year?

[Link: story.news.ya......] "

the amount of cultural self-superiority on display here is astounding. Of course there are idiots in India. see my post on Gandhi. I'm a militant hindu, but not an intolerant moron.

should i ask, are you going to participate in the lynching today? I heard the gay pride parade went through your town.

and only 40 years ago, it was the blacks.

such chest-beating happens everywhere. If America's cut down on it, dont turn it into a different type of self-superior smugness.

104 Baldy  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 5:58:23pm

#75 Camel Prophet - Great post. (Especially the sections in which the audience laughed...)

105 Tupsox  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:01:59pm

I wish I'd know there were lizardoids willing to do security for pipes so i didnt have to shell out $1500 to the champaign police :)

our event wasnt nearly this bad....and we had about 800 people. a few hecklers, a few people who walked yelling "racist" and whatnot, but nothing of berkeley magnitudes.

And just cause i like to tout it, here's me and pipes:)

[Link: www.students.uiuc.edu...]

106 Right Brain  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:04:12pm

There is one line in Charles’ post about Berserkley that rang true for me:

"After the lecture, many Jews in the audience were visibly shaken. For those who hadn’t yet encountered Muslim hostility up close and personal, it was an eye-opening experience."


It is this viciousness, this glazed eyed otherworldly hate and righteous that New Yorkers saw two years ago. It is precisely this that we cannot communicate to those who maintain their indignant posture about our foreign policy of taking the war to the enemy. God bless free speech, because it is during sit downs such as this one that this freakish danger is seen first hand.

107 jsstag  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:08:19pm

I am the "Jeff" referenced in #86 and I agree with my friend that most of the attendees were not terribly shaken by the protestors either in or out of the auditorium (even though this included hostile shouts of "racist" to those of us who were peaceably departing the event). A couple of additional points:

1. The first protestor to be tossed was none other than Snehal Shingavi, the lecturer/Palestinan activist who notoriously discouraged students with a "conservative" perspective from attending his poetry seminar. He actually tried to speak out before Pipes even began his lecture. After refusing to hold his pearls of wisdom until the Q&A, he was escorted from the hall. But that pretty much set the tone for the evening.

2. The organizers, three Jewish student groups, really need to be commended here. They set the protocol for civility, even when it was obviously going to be transgressed, they showed patience with the hostile portions of the crowd (which were in the minority) and finally they were willing to take a stand and have people removed when that became the last resort. They were also fair to the other side; most of the questions at the Q&A were clearly meant to challenge Pipes, and were delivered dispassionately by a moderator. In the end, Pipes was able to give his speech and there was a good, albiet shortened (due to the interruptions) Q&A. Bravo to the organizers for what really was a terriifc event.

3. My friend accurately points out the "Seig Heil" incident, which really wins my vote for the low point of the evening. I found it interesting that until that point the pro-Pipes attendees were quite vocal in answering the interruptions. During the Nazi salute, however, delivered by the protestors, most of whom were dressed in middle eastern garb, with the knowledge that a large Jewish contingent filled the hall, there was relative stunned silence. It was as if the attendees understood that this vulgar gesture was best left to speak for itself in evincing the moral emptiness of its speakers.

108 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:11:24pm

#93 Model4

Way OT: Now that was an interesting piece of spam. "Please submit credit card information to update your AOL account." Sent to my address (Model4)@(not AOL).(not com). They're not even trying anymore. When you're disappointed by even a spammer's lack of work ethic, surely the End Times are near.

I am glad you didn't fall for that one. Remember, AOL will never ask for your credit card.

However, Charles mentioned something about verifying all the posters names here and asked if I could help out. Just go ahead and click my name for my email and send either a valid credit card number or your Social Security number with your name and address. That goes for anyone else as well.

Trust me.

109 Right Wing Conspirator  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:14:17pm

#107 jsstag

I am sure this would be commented on in the school paper. Can you be on the lookout for it and post it if it is?

110 devka  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:16:07pm

oy, we're probably bringing Dr. Pipes to my campus in a few weeks, looks like security planning will be a hoot.

anyone who attended the lecture-anything in particular i should look out/plan for?

111 Leah  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:18:09pm

Dont you all think that Americans NEED to see what happened in that meeting?? The SALUTE from the Pal Supporters? YES..Americans need to see what kind of Country they will help establish. Its NOT too late to RETHINK this horrible (for America as well down the line) MISTAKE. Fn. WORD!

Stunned Silence. ALL of us need to see the Danny Kaye Movie. RENT IT. From that movie you will learn-- NO MORE Silence. Get over it..know it is coming and be ready...cause THEY are obviously ready.

Yes...it IS coming here.

112 militant_hindu  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:21:45pm

#86
"My friend Jeff & I were actually at the lecture. We were not at all visibly shaken, as this sort of behaviour was to be expected. What the press did not report was the chanting of "Seig Heil" by the radicals. In fact, I don't think that any of the protesters had actually read Pipes. In fact most of the radicals do not even attend Berkeley. Pipes was great as he did not lose his cool and was very dignified in his responses. In fact, most of the students that we observed on campus seemed more worried about their course load and grades than small cadre of "Brownshirts" that gets more attention than they deserve. "

sounds like a neo-nazi/muslim joint effort.

good to know about the students, however.

113 observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:22:37pm

To:
Observer

You can lose your temper with the Berkeley louts for both of us, but ui would be easier if you added something or changed --maybe to "California Observer"--whatever you like.

Stay cool but keep your dukes up!

114 Illinois NeoCon  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:24:09pm

When Pipes came to speak at Illinois back in early December, our local Islamists, peace activists, and other brown shirts put up an apartid wall. What I found telling about its construction was that it was the women who were doing all the work, and the men didn't show up until the end.

115 Model4  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:24:17pm

#105 Tupsox: Forget Pipes, what was Frodo doing there?

#110 devka: I'd ask that the event be videotaped "so that others who can't attend might get to see it." Offer to run the camera(s). Leave one on fixed on Pipes, the other will be for you to use to splice in audience members' questions and other shooting. If the crowd gets malicious, you'll have evidence. If not, you'll get to hear a good lecture. Just don't make it obvious what you're doing. Depending on how it goes down, Pipes, Horowitz or FIRE might be interested, along with some of the state legislatures that are considering passing "academic freedom bill of rights." Hopefully it will spark something in Pipes mind to where he won't miss more of these opportunities.

116 zombie  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:32:18pm

I was there and took plenty of pictures. Will try to post some by the end of tonight. No guarantees, though.

117 devka  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:37:47pm

#105 Tupsox:

what were your security arrangements? was most of the audience the student body or community members?


#115 Model4:
You never fail to amuse, heh.
Thanks for the idea, I was mulling it over, and now I'll def see what I can do to find a few people willing to lend their equipment

118 Steve Young (not the QB)  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:47:28pm

1. Thanks for exposing these left-wing nazis and for the photographs showing what's really going on with the "civilian" casualties in Gaza and the West Bank. (I've been forwarding those photos to the L.A. Times -- haven't printed them yet) People in this country really need to have their eyes opened to the threats that these Arabs and Islamic extremists and their supporters pose to the U.S. and our freedoms.

2. SUGGESTION BOX: I come to your blog (and have been reading it off and on for the last couple of years) to get information on what's really going on in Israel and with the ROP, along with translations from the MERI (?) and other information that you don't find in the mainstream media. I do have one suggestion. If the purpose of this blog is to educate and change opinions, I think the increasingly partisan tone may turn off a lot of potential converts. There are a lot of people (such as myself) who are pro-israel, anti-plo, anti-wahabbis, anti ROP assholes and are convinced that these jerks would nuke us if they had half a chance, and agree with your assessment of the problem, but aren't convinced that Bush is the best guy for the job. Between not giving 10 seconds thought to terrorism his first 7 months on the job, giving the Bin Ladens a free pass out of the country, kissing Saudi butt, and going in light into Afghanistan, he's got his faults. Similarly there were plenty of Democrats and Republicans alike who were unduly complacent about terrorism pre 9/11 -- as was I. Anyway, just a suggestion. I realize preaching to the choir is a lot more fun, but you may wind up converting more people to the cause if you keep it a little more non-partisan. Thanks again.

119 another observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:53:23pm

Why Does Israel Emulate Gandhi, Not Moses?

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

Throughout history, many chose not to emulate Moses' example. During the Second World War, for example, when it appeared that Nazi Germany would attempt to capture England, Mahatma Gandhi offered the British the following advice:

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have which are useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

To the Jews of Germany, Gandhi offered a similar message:

"I am as certain as I am dictating these words that the stoniest German heart will melt [if only the Jews] adopt active non-violence. Human nature... unfailingly responds to the advances of love. I do not despair of his [Hitler's] responding to human suffering even though caused by him."

Had Gandhi convinced the English to lay down their arms and practice non-violence, the Jewish race would have been annihilated, democracy and human rights would have disappeared, and the world would have been plunged into a new Dark Age of unimaginable cruelty. War, while always unfortunate and painful, is not always evil; sometimes, fighting a war is the most moral thing to do.

120 Baldy  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:54:39pm

#118 Steve Young - Many here are not pleased with the President on many issues, especially the Saudis...
Welcome.

121 observer  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 6:57:21pm

On opening up LGF late tonight :

There's no hatred like Jew-hatred. Longer lasting than any other. Works everywhere, from California to gay Paree, and for everyone, from the far left to the fascist right.
Berkeley, once the host to refugee intellectuals and scholars, now sounding like a Munich beer hall in 1931.
Microsoft, equating the Hakenkreuz with the Star of David.
France, mixing its own amti-Semitism with the rabid Muslim version.

Enough=too much.

Good night.

122 EE  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:14:18pm

militant_hindu
Good to hear your views.

I can see the benefit of an alliance of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, non-religious people, freedom-loving Muslims, and others, in resisting the ideology of jihadist Islam which is hazardous to the health of much of the globe.

Unfortunately, within such a possible alliance may be a few with an air of superiority that tends to discourage such an alliance. I suppose that extremists can be found in many places, even in a movement that aims to oppose an extremist militantly supremacist movement. The radical Islamists must love that.

Here's hoping that the alliance that I spoke of can develop.

123 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:14:19pm

Leah (#111)

Dont you all think that Americans NEED to see what happened in that meeting??

Yes, I do think everyone need to see the antics of these vile Jew-haters but I fear that some will excuse this behaviour, reach for the always handy "lunatic fringe".

124 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:21:16pm

observer (#121)

Did you see this post?

From Ha'aretz:

01:33 U.S. ambassador to the European Union says anti-Semitism in Europe nearly as bad as it was in the 1930s
125 agit-prop  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:26:10pm

#18 - i'm taking the CA bar exam in july; i'd love to hear what you have in mind.

#29 & 115 - who are FIRE?

i was at this lecture too and was impressed with dr. pipes' ability to retain his cool -- and indeed respond to his critics with wit and aplomb. heck, i was so impressed i donated to campus watch today!

after the lecture, all i could think was "they may be louder, but we have the better ideas." so long as the marketplace of ideas remains free, there is no doubt in my mind that we will triumph over this most recent form of fascism, so-called "militant" islam. i just hope that we have the spine to continue down the right path.

126 andreaSF  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:30:07pm

The "seig heil" did happen, a dad of one of my son's kindergarten classmates went to the lecture and was stunned at the venom and vitriol of the vermin left in attendance.. hope to get more info from him and post it tomorrow..

127 Martel-Sobieski  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:34:54pm

Berzerkely Mau-Mau's at it again.

Firstly I'm shocked that someone like Daniel Pipes was even invited to such a place. It's a testament to his courage that he showed up.

Secondly, isn't it amazing that those who are most vociferous about thier own right to free speech are also the most vociferous about shutting up those they disagree with.

Thirdly, this shameful behavior has become all too mainstream in our University culture. It just shows what weak pusilanimous girly-men and pussies your average University Deans are.

Fourthly, It's good to get these imbeciles out in the open. Let's hope we got a really good look at these assholes and follow thier "activist" careers.

I saw a black guy wearing a dread-beanie walking down the street the other day with a big cardboard sign saying that "Usama is Innocent - USA Evil Imperalists."
You know, these wack-jobs are just hate-filled anti-hippies. The more you get to know them, the more contemptible they are.

I say more exposure is better. Let's get them really good and agitated so we can see them, so we can get thier addresses.

Lord, send us a champion to slay the muslim devils.
Amen.

128 Bourgeois Reactionary  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:48:31pm

Brenda #94 - "My normal level of walking-around armaments includes a knife and some spray stuff"
I think I'm in love :-)

observer #121 - "fascist right"
Fascists are socialists, ergo left. Fascists are only 'right' if you are Communist.

129 Elizabeth  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 7:54:31pm

Aside from being an intellectual giant, Daniel Pipes is also an immensely courageous person to stand there alone and take on this ravening horde. G*d Bless him and keep him safe! We don't have enough with his gifts.

130 zombie  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:07:37pm

Check it out! Here are 12 photos I took at the Pipes lecture: Daniel Pipes Berkeley lecture and protest photos.
Sorry they're all so high-resolution and big. I'm not a Web-meister so I just slapped 'em online as is. Download them if you need to see them more reasonably-sized on your screen.
Experience the love!

131 teacake  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:14:00pm

Children of the corn. LOL

132 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:14:15pm

zombie (#130)

What hateful scum.

133 teacake  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:17:24pm

Oozing with self-importance.

134 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:26:34pm

The one picture has all the kaffiya-clad morons with red eyes which gives them a suitably demonic look.

135 MakeMyDay  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:26:54pm

Thanks to everybody who posted about Daniel Pipes lecture. I actually wanted to ask how it went, because I was one of those who could not get in due to lack of space. Could somebody estimate which side constituted the majority of his audience -- supporters or detractors? I would say that people who did not manage to get in were genuinely interested in his lecture.

I saw some usual loonies outside. There was a middle-aged guy in the Uncle Sam outfit with a sign "Onward Christian soldiers, Uncle Sam wants you to die for Israel" ( he looked like a dirty old man more than anything else) distributing lists of hate literature, then there were four "masks" of black widows holding something like rag dolls -- my guess is they meant to represent babies personally eaten by Daniel Pipes. There was a sign "Shame to Hillel". However, the crowd of people lined up for attending the lecture was so much larger than that of the circus freaks, that I left in hope that the lecture would pass normally, without incidents. Looks like I was wrong.

136 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:29:40pm

MakeMyDay (#135)

You realize that people like you who wanted to hear Pipes speak couldn't get in because of all the Jew-haters?

137 MakeMyDay  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:38:17pm

zulubaby,

I know. That was my point -- the organization of this event should have been thought out better, perhaps. But I am still curious who managed to get inside. The disruptors were very loud and obnoxious, but were they the majority or minority? At least, the reaction on their provocations was firm and decisive, it seems, so this is a good sign.

138 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:44:50pm

MakeMyDay (#137)

The disruptors were very loud and obnoxious, but were they the majority or minority?

Perhaps one of the posters that attended the talk could tell us.

At least, the reaction on their provocations was firm and decisive, it seems, so this is a good sign.

I'm not too sure about that. From the article:

Sadly, it took several more of these epithets before he was forcibly removed.

Also, see Observer's post:

Many people could not get in because the auditorium was full with those whose main purpose was to disrupt the lecture and eventually leave.
139 into_the_dark  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:56:21pm

#127
"Thirdly, this shameful behavior has become all too mainstream in our University culture. It just shows what weak pusilanimous girly-men and pussies your average University Deans are. "

its not mainstream, its just very loud.

I remember a pro-Israel rally at RU. lots of lights, big deal and all that, but the striking thing was, nothing much happened in the anti-crowd.

you see, the nuts get all the publicity... because theyre nuts, for chrissakes. it doesnt mean most uni students arent good, sensible people.

[Link: www.dailyprincetonian.com...]

2 Dems showed up, too.

140 into_the_dark  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:59:09pm

its sad to see people deriding uni students as whack jobs because of fringe radical fascist morons. while ive seen a few out-there people here, most of the students tend to not give a shit or support Israel.

of course, NJ is heavily jewish, so i guess it makes sense.

141 Tasty Beverage  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 8:59:12pm

#134 zulubaby

The one picture has all the kaffiya-clad morons with red eyes which gives them a suitably demonic look.

That whole pictorial is a demonstration of the phenomenon of projection.

Those "mourning women" puppet-costumes holding the dead "martyrs" were the most offensive to me, because if the jihadi-symps wanted to portray Reality, the puppet women would have had triumphant grins on their papier mache faces whilst holding big cardboard lottery-style checks for Ten Grand, ululating all the way to the bank. Sorry son but I need the cash.

142 Sean M  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:02:02pm

Slightly OT: Victor Davis Hanson speech.

This is my first post after lots of lurking, sorry to not be totally on topic, but I'm pumped up having just had the chance to shake VDH's hand and talk with him about a heckler at the talk he just gave tonight!

At the end of the Q&A of his talk, that had a theme of deterrence to keep aggression at bay, a voice from the back taunted: "For an educated man, you sure are ignorant". Another man jumped up and said "You're about to get some deterrence so be quiet!" "I'm a Viet Nam vet I can speak out!" was the retort. VDH just calmly said "That's alright" and moved on.

At the book signing afterword, as he autographed my books, I said I hoped he might write about the "neo-spartan" thinking of the heckler and "chickenhawk' name calling, ie. only those who are in the military or who have served in combat can have opinions on matters of war.

He agreed that it was a line of thought without merit, and that the Kerry/Bush - who served how in the military issue was one that the country did not need.

Wow, a speech, an autograph, and a short conversation with a touch of politics and history with VDH and no cover charge!

143 Julia the Horrible  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:02:31pm

On Pipes' newsletter there was mention that he thought there was going to be a disruptive crowd, but the fact that he turned up anyway and faced them showed a lot of chutzpah.

These MSA people only showed their asses, and perhaps gave the lefty coast liberals a taste of what their laissez faire has earned them: shit and shoved in it.

I just wish more of the mainstream press would report this.

144 any abu is a dimwit  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:11:29pm

I aint flaming, but sorry, my first reaction is: the leftist jewish sheep who occupy space @ UCB deserved the slap in the face the MSA gave them.

will it wake them up? doubt it

145 zombie  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:17:45pm

A few comments on my photos and on the event itself:
The guy holding up the Gandhi-quote sign in the first photo (he appears in other photos as well) was spewing the most incredible anti-Semitism I have ever actually witnessed in person. Before the rally, while holding his Gandhi sign, he was screaming, "If you broke into someone's house and stole something, the owner would have the right to kill you. You'd deserve to die! The Jews broke into Palestine and stole the Palestinians' land. So they deserve to die! The Jews deserve to die!" When a couple of crazy-brave Israelis confronted him, he yelled back at one of them, "What's your address? What's your address? I'll come over one night and we'll see if you try to kill me. It's the reasonable response if someone tries to steal from you. What's your address? Are you afraid?" It was really, really creepy. The same guy was also one of the last ones kicked out of the lecture, and as he left he was screaming first at Pipes, "Racist Jew! Racist Jew!" and then at the remaining audience, "Racist Jews! Racist Jews!"
As Pipes correctly pointed out -- what's race got to do with it? Pipes never mentioned race. And Muslims come in all colors (as Malcolm X was so proud to point out).
The "I want you to Die for IXrael" guy is a regular at all the "peace" rallies around the Bay Area.
The third picture shows a screaming fight going on in the background -- unfortunately blocked out by a couple of smiling, more jocular combatants.
The fourth picture shows Pipes getting interrupted by yet another screaming protester; this happened about 40 times throughout the lecture.
Then we've got a selection of signs, duelling flags, Big-Head Palestinian moms with their rag-doll dead babies, and so forth.
The final picture shows what I like to call "Palestinian chic" -- Dude, we are so cool.
What no one has really pointed out here yet is that after the lecture, the Students for Justice in Palestine crowd had created a "hate tunnel" at the exit, so that everyone who came out afterwards had to run the gauntlet and face a line of screaming Israel-haters. Generally, they howled "Racist! Racist!" incessantly at every doddering old lady, every nerdy student, every grumpy old hippie who left the lecture. Whoever they were, they were definitely all racists.
As to the content of Pipes' lecture: to be frank, everything he said was eminently reasonable and totally self-evident to lgf readers. I didn't hear a single extremist or racist or hate-filled word come out of his mouth. He is, in fact, quite soft-spoken. I was expecting a pro-Israel firebrand, but instead we got a sensible Middle East analyst not afraid to tell it like it is. His calmness and his factual accuracy are what really drove the protestors into convulsions.
I'd say the crowd inside the lecture hall was actually about 50-50 evenly split pro- and anti-Pipes. It's just that only a certain segment of the anti-Pipes crowd were vocal enough to get kicked out. Many of the calm, silent listeners were anti-Pipes as well: I did my best to eavesdrop on everyone, and watch their body language. Generally, the screamers were SJP (Students for Justice in Palestine) and MSA (Muslim Students Association) members, as well as professional Muslim rabble-rousers, guilty self-loathing middle-class Jews, pathetic Berkeley Marxists, and schizophenic old lefties. The typical Berkeley crowd.
I've been to literally hundreds of protests in my day, but this one really left me feeling a sort of gut-level revulsion I'm not used to. Definitely a memorably unnerving experience. There was a lot of energy in the air, and it was the energy of pure irrational hate.

146 MakeMyDay  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:18:54pm

#144, don't be an idiot! While there are many hardcore nutcases among the Berkeley faculty and students, some, unfortunately, Jewish, I was very pleasantly surprised that Berkeley Hillel invited Pipes. Given the locale, it was very courageous of them. Stanford Hillel disinvited him last year, I believe, even though the atmosphere there is far more civilized.

147 Rayra[deleted]  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:29:54pm
148 MakeMyDay  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 9:37:45pm

zombie, thank you for your account! "Hate tunnel" -- disgusting. Reminiscent of WWII.

I watched Pipes' lecture once on CSPAN, and he was exactly as you described -- soft-spoken, calm and sensible. While the content of his speech was not exactly "new", he had some interesting angles in addition to being a good lecturer.

149 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:03:02pm

zombie (#145)

What no one has really pointed out here yet is that after the lecture, the Students for Justice in Palestine crowd had created a "hate tunnel" at the exit, so that everyone who came out afterwards had to run the gauntlet and face a line of screaming Israel-haters.

I'm speechless.

150 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:04:44pm

Tasty Beverage (#141)

What you say is chilling but so true. These people are lunatics, all of them.

151 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:07:30pm

any abu is a dimwit (#144)

I aint flaming, but sorry, my first reaction is: the leftist jewish sheep who occupy space @ UCB deserved the slap in the face the MSA gave them.

Like hell you aren't.

152 zulubaby  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:09:35pm

By the way, zombie (and others), thanks for the reporting.

153 House  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:16:00pm

LOVE to see Ber-zerk-ely take it up the poo-poo. Great Job by Pipes.

as far as the conflict; I pray Sharon just gives the IDF the go ahead for full scale invasion of 'Palestine'.

get it over with. the world will condemn Israel. again. what's new?

154 Tupsox  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:32:24pm

To those curious (devka), we had 4 police officers as well as the basic venue security. We had metal detectors and quick purse/bag checks at the door. The total cost for venue+security came out somewhere between 1600-2000 if i remember correctly.

We had about 800-900 people, mostly students and community members.

Model4- Frodo? eh? are you referring to me?
to be fair, i could grow a beard in about 6 days, as opposed to the 6 decades it would take elijah wood.
Frodo's a new one, though.

IllinoisNeoCon - Who are you? Do I know you? I'm president of IllinIPAC...

155 Ginger Liz  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 10:40:16pm

Tupsox, quite the little cutie, aren't you?!

I think it's dreadful that you had to spend that much on security. Out of interest, have there been other speakers who have required similar precautions at Berkeley?

156 firebrand  Thu, Feb 12, 2004 11:24:47pm

Last autumn I attended the Pipes lecture at Brandeis U.
Although there was heavy security, the procedings remained civil. The MSA stacked the Q&A with a barrage of questions parroting the CAIR tactic of using out of context Pipes quotes as indictments of his so called racism which were easily refuted with his characteristic aplomb. But it did cut into the tme allotted for fruitful discourse. After the lecture, protest tables outside of the building were staffed by the MSA and the LLL(tm) which displayed the moronic poster message of a Pipes portrait paired with one of Sen. Joe McCarthy.

As I was already fairly pissed off, I encountered some upperclassman who was displaying his leadership skills by coordinating the subtrolls. In dire need of serenity, I excused myself for interrupting and told him to go fuck himself for which he thanked me, incredulously. Already abondoned by his entourage, he quickly scurried away. This from a much younger guy at least a foot taller than I.

While I am running off at the mouth I may as well relate the time I encountered a made for TV news coverage of a protest by a large group of Muslims. They lined up neatly with a dozen or so posters of the Star of David equals the swastika while the leader ranted some spew to the rest of the gathering through the PA. The scene was being monitored by three mounted police officers. Did I mention that I had my 125 lb. female, Rotti/Black&Tan 'Coon Hound cross breed on leash? She looks just like a Rottweiler, but taller like a hound. My original intention was to visit the designated off leash area which happenned to be adjacent to the protest area. Anyway, I then drew the Star of David on my forehead and lurked until the media were gone. Then I, along with the dog and Star of David, merrily romped amid the large crowd of tightly packed Muslims. The ensuing chaotic dispersal and screaming was a delight to behold. The police then escorted the remaining Muslim stragglers away from the dog park.

157 Avi W  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 12:01:58am

Theodore Herzl founded the Zionist movement after witnessing the trial of Alfred Dreyfuss, a secular Jewish officer in the French army who was publicly disgraced for a crime he didn't commit. Herzl was deeply shaken by the virulent anti-Semitism directed at Alfred Dreyfuss by the French public, and in the aftermath of the pogroms in Russia Herzl concluded that the Jews must leave Europe and found a nation of their own.

It sounds like Dr. Pipes is the Dreyfuss of today. Perhaps somewhere in the audience was the Theodore Herzl of our time.

158 J.D.  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 1:22:12am

#75 Camel Prophet

The Saudis, Pakistan, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban, for the record.

159 Thom  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 3:37:02am
After the lecture, many Jews in the audience were visibly shaken. For those who hadn’t yet encountered Muslim hostility up close and personal, it was an eye-opening experience. Perhaps not all of UC Berkeley’s Muslim students subscribe to the anti-Semitic views of the MSA, but if that’s the case, they certainly didn’t make their voices heard that evening.

Exactly. "Moderate Muslims" my ass. "Moderate Muslims" sit quietly on the sidelines while other mohammedans do the dirty work.

Is there any video on the net yet?

160 tom  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 3:38:33am

Great pictures! Thanks for sharing. Those shots of the huge masks, with people peaking through the mouth holes are very creepy.

The person with the sign displaying the fabricated Pipes's quote about "The Palestinians are a miserable people", attributed to the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs, pretty much sums up how these dishonest idiots operate. Tell a lie enough times, and some jackass will eventually show up at a Berkeley lecture with it plastered on his sign....

161 observer  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 3:47:20am

#124, zulubaby

Saw the post this morning--thanks.

Auden described the 1930s as a "low dishonest decade" (his poem, "September 1, 1939"), in which he called Hitler the "psychopathic god."

If we don't stop the new version soon, we'll get the 1940s again--more blood.

There's just no way to get the story LGF tells daily into the mainstream. At least, until another disaster hits. Americans are work and comfort oriented--which is nice, because it protects them from falling for insane ideologies. But it also keeps them from spotting the threat coming from them.

162 Ariel  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 3:57:31am

Thanks for all of the first-hand reports. It was definitely interesting to hear about the "Sieg Hiel" bit - sounds like there's no point too low for the MSA to go.

Observer #66,

Although Tzedek was censured by Hillel for writing the letter, they are affiliated with Hillel and receive money from Hillel for their anti-Israel events.

Meanwhile, Berkeley Hillel won't allow ZOA in; which one would really be the better group for Hillel to allow?

163 Rick Z  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 4:04:42am

# 156 firebrand:

Any way you can show these types of *ssholes up in public is a good way!!

Also, kudos to those who attended the attempted lecture. To gave been there is to stand up and be counted as a supporter of sane discourse on pertinent topics.

What Pipes does through these lectures is what didn't happen with Ernst Roehm and the Brownshirts (and, no, they weren't a very snappy dance band), as mentioned above by # 66 EE. Standing up to tyranny is always a brave act. If one man must be in the forefront in this battle of exposure, Pipes certainly has the will to be that man.

Unless the attitudes held by this ilk are not squashed, permanently, in the the US immediately, then their hate will only fester, creating more damage long term to the body politic. Also, deportation for those not citizens who abuse this country's generosity, in the manner described on this thread, is a corrective step in a positive direction.

164 BPP  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 4:58:11am

As a Berkeley graduate I can say I am not in the least bit surprised at this reaction to someone like Daniel Pipes, who is blunt and unafraid to skewer myths about the Middle East. It's also not surprising why he went: this kind of confrontation, besides being great publicity for him, also starkly illustrates many of the points he has long made about the nature of Muslim student associations.

A word about Berkeley: Most people immediately associate Berkeley with radical politics. This is certainly justified as radicals are a large and vocal presence on campus and of course in the town as a whole. But they are still a minority. There was an active Republican Club when I was there and most students I knew were moderate or conservative in outlook. The Law and Economics faculties were markedly conservative when I was there in the 80s (I don't know it that's still true). It is an extremely diverse place. Don't assume everyone there or everyone who graduated from there is an LLL.

165 SoCalJustice  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 5:01:36am

(#156) firebrand

Last autumn I attended the Pipes lecture at Brandeis U. Although there was heavy security, the procedings remained civil. The MSA stacked the Q&A with a barrage of questions parroting the CAIR tactic of using out of context Pipes quotes as indictments of his so called racism which were easily refuted with his characteristic aplomb.

Brandeis has an MSA?

lol

More evidence of Jewish Apartheid.

Of course, I'm sure the JSA meetings at al-Najaf or Bir Zeit are quite rambunctious. ;-)

166 J.D.  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 5:39:41am

OT -

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!
Freed, many rejoin Taliban

167 J.D.  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 5:43:17am
168 AFbrat  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 5:50:51am

I was very fortunate to hear Dr. Pipes speak in Seattle recently.

The audience interrupted him often. With applause.

Thanks to all for the above posts and pictures. The audience I was a part of was respectful and appreciative of Dr. Pipes' time. The Berkeley audience acted exactly as I expected it would.

169 Laxmi  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:01:52am

Fking Islamofascist Morons have no Leader they can hold up for an example of peace in Islam, that they have hijacked Gandhi!

TO others bend on defacing one of the world's greatest Leaders, do not selective quote Gandhi.

He represented the greatest Courage Mankind can have. The Courage to fight injustice at all cost, but without violence.

Islam is Gandhi's right opposite.

Gandhi wanted to fight Ideologies not people.
If Gandhi would have been alive today, he would have launched a war of truth against Islamofacism.. the ideology, but would have spared the victims of this ideology, the muslims themselves.

Falsehood has to be fought with Truth. Not weapons.
Islam is the enemy - the disease - the cancer, Muslims are only the symptoms.

Pipes is doing the very right thing. Fighting to expose Islam for what it is. The way to go Pipes!
See how painful the exposture is to those islamobots!

/closing ranks with Militant_Hindu!/

170 meir  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:17:17am

If it walks like a duck and quaks like a duck then it must be daniel Pipes.

he's a known Islamophobe and his main goal is to denounce all arabs and muslims as hate mongering people. It's a shame when they let people of his ilk in universities.

171 observer  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:17:37am

#167, J.D.

This guy's stuff shouldn't make it into a Jr. High paper:

"Fear, it just is. It nibbles away at our souls like a tapeworm."

A tapeworm "nibbling" at our souls?

Get me re-write. Better even, get me a new writer.

172 Thom  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:25:42am

#170 meir

Thank you, Nihad Awad.

meir - you obviously have not listened to or read anything Pipes has said or written.

173 California Observer  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:29:37am

Zombie
#145

The dude with Ghandi posters that yelled "Racist Jew! You should be ashamed of yourself!" and was escorted out at the end should not be talked to, as he's just crazy. Irrationally anti-Semitic and crazy. Speaking from experience.

The audience was nowhere close to 50/50 in terms of supporters vs. distractors. My bet as there were no more than a 100 clowns for a 600 lecture hall, but the noise they created was enough to make it seem like they dominated. Unfortunately, it is awlays like that in Berkeley.

174 Ariel  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:31:52am

meir #170,

he's a known Islamophobe and his main goal is to denounce all arabs and muslims as hate mongering people.

In real life, Pipes claims that there are moderate Muslims who oppose the jihad. Don't let that fact sway you from your contrafactual opinions, however.

It's a shame when they let people of his ilk in universities.

Free speech for me but not for thee? Cute.

And even cuter that you chose a Jewish nick, Abd'allah.

175 Model4  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:46:39am

#170 meir: If that were even remotely true, wouldn't his detractors have wanted him to be heard, to reveal him as what you claim? And of course you wouldn't be desperately trying to keep others from hearing him as well.

That's an easy indicator of the different sides of many current issues. I want everyone to hear what Arafat says, what Yassin say, what bin Ladens says, Hamza, Rantisi, and on and on. You don't even want your own guys to be heard.

Guees what? We both know you have something to hide.

Tupsox: Great pic of you man, and the mentioned resemblance was only a compliment/"hey this could be good for a chuckle" quip.

Whomever asked about FIRE above: No time to check, but I think they're at thefire.org. Something about fairness in education, but they are a great resource when the pc police go after students for daring to express conservative views on campus, or get threatened for doing things everyone else does routinely. They have lawyers advise the students and stand up for them if disciplenary boards are involved, and also bring cases of unfairness to the media's attention.

176 Bleeding heart conservative (Brian)  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:48:42am

I have this image in my mind of all the normal people, the ones that don't want our nation to become what the MSA wants it to become, as the disruptions start, standing up in unison, turning to face them and staring hard at the protestor/ shouters with glares and amrs crossed.
I imagine a team taking photos, and taking notes... and then I imagine these punks getting a little nervous and progressively more sheepish.

If anything good might have come out of that event, it is that liberals and other idealists may have been shaken out of complacency. A lot of their ideas won't survive this kind of reality.

177 TS  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 6:48:48am

Here't the kind of freedom of speech these Berkely fascists would like for the U.S. :

Kuwait: "A one-year prison sentence was handed down to writer, journalist and researcher Yasser al-Habib
on 20 January 2004, when he was reportedly convicted of 'questioning the conduct and integrity
of some of the companions of the prophet Muhammad' in a lecture he had delivered."
[Link: www.indexonline.org...]

178 Rick Z  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 7:27:07am

# 170 Our Islamist with the Jewish nic:

he's a known Islamophobe and his main goal is to denounce all arabs and muslims as hate mongering people.

Pipes is most certainly not that way. I, however, am. So FOAD! And damn quick.

179 California Observer  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 7:31:03am

Read the Daily Cal's opinion page today.

[Link: www.dailycal.org...]

180 Illinois NeoCon  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 7:45:09am

Tupsox:

Sorry, I just got back here. I highly, highly doubt that you know me. Despite proudly proclaiming myself to be a NeoCon, I'm not Jewish and hence have no identification with Hillel. Also, I don't recognize anyone in the photo that you posted.

However, though you don't know me and I you, you probably know my work, as does anyone who reads the DI. Remember when Dr. Pipes called out the DI at Foellinger, that was me. I sent it, and a number of other stories from the paper a few days before the speech occurred, just to let him know what he'd be facing. I also wrote several letters to the editor trying to defend Dr. Pipes, though none were ever published. Also I was published on Front Page shortly after the speech were I defended Dr. Pipes. It's available in my blog under the December section. Joel Schwitzer emailed me about it, but for some reason my email account won't let me reply to him; if you see him tell him I say thanks for the support.

I've got few questions for the group that organized Dr. Pipes' speech. Did he tell you that he was going to call out the DI or did he blindside you? Zmick, the DI columnist, seems to believe that Dr. Pipes ended the Q & A section because the heat was starting to be turned up on him, but I believe it's because the time was simply up on the auditoriom. Am I right?

If you want to contact me, just send me an email. I'll be around to get it eventually.

181 Thom  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 7:45:44am

#179 California Observer

The page isn't loading. What is it about?

182 Geepers  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 7:55:56am

From J.D. (Link Goddess)'s link in #167:

Fear means never having to dig very deep, never having to ask serious questions of the self. There, there now. Don't bother thinking for yourself. Let the priests and the government CEOs and the war hawks make it all better. Boom boom crush snicker.

And Observer has the temerity to deride is writing achievements?

Oh, the irony (something I'm told the 'english' understand far better than us mere 'mericans).

Fear means never having to dig very deep,

To find 300,000 bodies in 50+ mass graves.

never having to ask serious questions of the self.

About why it was OK to let hundreds of thousands die while UN sanctions and containment watched those graves fill, and the marshes drained?

There, there now.

Thanks for talking down to me.

Don't bother thinking for yourself. Let the priests and the government CEOs and the war hawks make it all better.

Or you?

Boom boom crush snicker.

OK then.

You convinced me with that "Boom boom crush snicker", but probably not of what you were hoping for.

183 Thom  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 8:02:06am

Nevermind, it finally loaded. Thanks anyway.

From one of the letters:

Tuesday’s speaking event with Daniel Pipes was an affront to many people on this campus. Pipes’ bigotry is easy to demonstrate, but I will do so with a single statement he made before the American Jewish Congress in Oct., 2001: “I worry very much from the Jewish point of view that the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims ... will present true dangers to American Jews.”

Fortunately we have Frawnce as a living laboratory to vindicate Dr. Pipes.

184 s  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 8:29:37am

Ok, I confess. I was a Berkeley grad student for several years, (quit the PhD in mid-dissertation because I had to get a real job). Anyway, I live near the campus now, and still go there often for lectures, etc. The campus today is really quite different. One of the posters above mentioned that not everyone is a LLL at Cal, and it is true. The undergrad students are nearly 40% Asian, and not prone to radical crap (since most of them seem to be science, engineering, and computer types). The new hardcore undergrads and grad students are pretty much limited to the soft fields like English, ethnic studies, sociology, etc. The ones that make the most noise are really not students at all. Cal is an open campus, meaning anyone can roam the campus. The majority of the professional protesters are not students, but merely tired hangers-on, either from the burned out 70s, or the wish-I-had-been there-wannabe-protester types. They are annoying to most everyone, and most people pay no attention to them at all. The really looney Berkeley-ites are the ones sitting on the city council, the neighborhood "activists", and the professional LLLs that attend all the city council meetings. Those meetings are legend- they can go on for six hours of "public comment" on trimming a hedge.

185 BPP  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 8:54:00am

184 s

Go Bears dude!

The one area where I would say students and radical politics intersect regularly is in the various student ethnic associations, which were a very strong presence even when I was there in the early-mid 80s. The Muslim Students, like the Chicanos, the Blacks, the Asians, the Koreans etc. etc may be merely a social home for some students (as well as some whiteys like me who went to the parties just to meet Asian women) but they also perpetuate the idea of racial victimization, which of course is a staple of left-wing politics.

I was against the pervasive pressure to hang out mainly with one's own ethnic group but it's obvious that many succumb to that pressure and then get fed a whole line of propaganda about how they are victims. This more than anything sustains leftist politics among students.

186 Leah  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 9:07:17am

We need to:

1.SHINE THE LIGHT on these bastards.
You do that by documenting with Video and Audio what you see and hear. Learn how to conceal a video machine in a backpack. You then remove the Backpack and put the backpack on your lap. Or use a Tote..or a big pocketbook. Spy Store and places like that have teensy weensy machines that do the job. Look around and get one. If you cant afford that.. get a long playing audio tape machine. On campus when you know that you are going to be in their proximity....stick a tape recorder in your pocket or your pants or in your bra (yep..good place to keep it)...and turn it on with the VOX thing activated. Another way..get a book about two times the size of your recorder..hollow it out...stick the device into the book..make sure there is a place for the lens to capture what you want to capture or the audio reciever to capture audio... Always carry a camera..regular or throw away..maybe those Cell Phone Cameras...

2. Know that this Nazi Pro Pal connection is there, has been there, FOR Decades. DO NOT GO INTO SHOCK!!!!!!!!!!!! We cannot afford to go into shock. Detach yourself, be objective, do what you can to get this type of thing ON CAMERA and at the same time not put your safety if jepardy.

For me..I take all this very seriously. Jews didnt take the Nazis as seriously in the beginning as they should have. I dont want us to make that mistake again. I dont want other Americans to make the mistake that WE made. Shining the light is all important. OUR citizens would recoil from what you all have described. So thats the reason for this cloak and dagger biz I put up here..We have to SHINE THE LIGHT.

187 Leah  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 9:11:41am

I want to add something to what I just put up. Check the Privacy Laws in your own State and your own Jurisdiction. Decide whether you want to risk breaking any law..or tailor your "documentation" to the laws. Ck Federal Law as well.

AND ...do have some legal person written down that you can call....just in case.

The other side is setting this up just like the Civil Rights Movement...so...all of ya that were in this movement know that you have a Lawyer ready to call..and you have money put away to bail your own self out.


This is a "just in case" ....

188 Firebrand  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 10:52:01am

SoCalJustice-
You have a namesake here!
This article from The Justice is about the Pipes lecture at Brandeis University on 11/18/03.

"...When MEFAB [Middle East Forum At Brandeis] first announced the event on Nov. 5, the ICC held an emergency meeting to discuss possible responses. Students immediately formed a group and mailing list called Hate Haters. The group has since changed its name to the Coalition for Tolerance. ..."


Rick Z said

"Any way you can show these types of *ssholes up in public is a good way!!"

As such, the item also contains some photos: the one at the bottom, of posters; the moonbat with the Moe Fein 'do in the middle had his photo shot from over my shoulder. He was the last of the questioners, and tried to frame Mr. Pipes with "facts" not yet admitted as evidence.

"Off with his head," said the Queen! -Lewis Carroll, AIW

P.S. I graduated HS with a Rick Z who I think went on to Harvard U. and whose fiancee went on to UMass-Boston in its first year of inception.

189 RufusLeeKing  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 11:31:41am

>>>Mr. Pipes claimed (and I agree with him) that diplomacy in this situation has failed and should no longer even be attempted as it will only be counterproductive.

190 RufusLeeKing  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 11:32:43am

>>>Mr. Pipes claimed (and I agree with him) that diplomacy in this situation has failed and should no longer even be attempted as it will only be counterproductive.

191 RufusLeeKing  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 11:34:36am

Nevermind. This crappy software just won't accept my complete post.

192 Baldy  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 5:13:04pm

#187 Leah - Re: Videotaping. If I am not mistaken, there is a distinction between video- & audio-taping. Sound recordings can be illegal in locales, whereas picture/movie recordings may not necessarily be...

193 Harcourt Fenton Mudd  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 5:27:57pm

#42, #32 -- Thanks for the interesting links.

Though Gandhi was not perfect, he's often held up as such, in a way that Churchill or Lincoln are not; and further, he's like a talisman of the left, the archetype of what passive resistance is supposed to accomplish. Note also how Americans loose their judgement when shown a fakir in a dhoti, a representative of the ever-spiritual, inscrutable orient. How else can we explain the adulation heaped on that awful, insipid movie Gandhi?

Of course non-violence could work against the British because their leaders and their system of government were not EVIL. To practice non-violence against the likes of the Nazis or Al Qaeda is itself evil because it leads to far more harm than war.

Furthermore, Gandhi was always interested in power; he used elements from the Indian spiritual traditions to cultivate a persona that gave him more power and authority. So I'd take his vaunted spirituality with a grain of salt (as it were). It's not so hard to be austere when you're adored by millions and wield great power. His abstemious life-style was more than made up for in his vast hoard of prestige and fame (not to mention the massages by fawning teens).

Lastly, was home-spun and chastity was India needed? More like: industry, capitalism, foreign investment.

194 EE  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 8:32:39pm

#170
"he's a known Islamophobe and his main goal is to denounce all arabs and muslims as hate mongering people"

Here is what Daniel Pipes wrote in Militant Islam Reaches America:

Does Islam threaten the West? No, it does not. But militant Islam does threaten it in many and profound ways. There is, indeed, no comparable danger in the world today.
One cannot emphasize too much this distinction between Islam -- plain Islam -- and its militant Islamic version. Islam is the religion of about 1 billion people and has been the host of one of the world's great civilizations. It is a fast-growing faith, particularly in frica, but also around the world. In contrast, militant Islam is a utopian ieology, initiated in the twentieth century, that attracts only a portion of Muslims (perhaps 10 to 15 percent), seeks to capture control of governments, and is nakedly aggressive toward all those who stand in its way, no matter what their faith.

I thought it is pretty clear that Pipes makes a distinction between Islam and militant Islam. But that does not stop liars from fabricating libels, like the lying piece of sh*t in #170.

195 EE  Fri, Feb 13, 2004 8:47:55pm

Now here is a Muslim who doesn't mince any words about what is happening to Islam, as he sees it. Akbar Ahmed writes: Islam on a collision course.
[Link: middleeastinfo.org...]

Islam is in confrontation with all of the major world religions: Judaism in the Middle East; Christianity in the Balkans, Chechnya, Nigeria, Sudan and sporadically in the Phillippines and Indonesia; Hinduism in South Asia; and, after the Taliban blew up the stuatues in Bamiyan, Buddhism. The Chinese, whose culture represents an amalgam of the philosphy of Confucius, Tao and Communist ideology, are also on a collision course with Islam in China's western province.

He explains it in terms of honor, and of the world entering a post-honor society.

Whatever. There is bloodshed going on around the world, and the fanatics of the ummah are involved in instigating it and in guiding it and in carrying it out. There is something wrong, terribly wrong, and it's on a global scale.

Akbar Ahmed sees it happening. CAIR may deny it, and CAIR's tools such as #170 may pretend there is nothing wrong going on, but at least one Muslim, Akbar Ahmed, notices the impending collision.

196 True Believer  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 7:39:49am

After I read all that "opinions" biased to one side, specifically ultra-right. I want to ask one simple question - why do you think that the ones who will be deported is Muslims, not Jewish for example?

As I understand, we live in democracy and I wonder who average Americal citizens will choose to deport first - ultra-Zionist or ultra Muslim nationalist,

Gowdamman - you are one of the first candidates to go ( only where will you go - North Pole maybe? )

197 EE  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 9:32:26am

#170 Ibrahim Hooper or Insane Rubbish, or whatever your name is:
"his main goal is to denounce all arabs and muslims as hate mongering people"

You are a damn liar and an evil scumbag. Here is what Pipes wrote in Militant Islam Reaches America.

Not a Clash of Civilizations...The terroristic jihad against the West is one reading of Islam, but it is not the eternal essence of Islam... if today's extremism were truly inextricable from Islam, then there would be no solution bu to try to quarantine or convert one sixth of humanity. To say the least, neither of those prospects is realistic.
Moderate Muslims. If the earth-shaking clash of our time is not between two civilizations, it is and must be a clash among the members of one civilization -- specifically, between Islamists and those who, for want of a better term, we may call moderate Muslims (understanding that "moderate" does not mean liberal or democratic but only anti-Islamist).
outsiders, and the United States in particular, can critically help in precipitating the battle and in influencing its outcome. They can do so both by weakening the militant side and be helping the moderate one.

And here we see why the militant Islamists, such as your Muslim SturmAbteilung brownshirts, are so opposed to Pipes. They see Pipes as eating their lunch, as starting an insurrection among people of Muslim descent, as encouraging them to throw off the yoke of Islamism and join the side of the free world. They see Pipes as a revolutionary, out to take away the influence of the radical Islamists from some of the people of Muslim descent. They see Pipes as encouraging dissidence in the ummah. They see Pipes as wanting to cause a rebellion in the ummah.

Pipes is trying to encourage people of Muslim descent who are tired of the fanatics monopolizing the microphone and dictating agendas, to speak out. Progress is slow, but it has already begun. And that's what irritates your MSA brownshirts more than anything, you lying bastard #170.

198 Doug Anderson  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 10:07:29am

D. Pipes in Seatle area

Note: this is a reposting from the puppet photo article; I wanted to post it in the context of comments on the Pipes Berkeley speech - missed this article first time around. Dr. Pipes Seattle talk was sponsored by a Christian church group. Even though it was a public forum at the end of the evening the pastor of the church jumped up and said he wanted to pray for Dr. Pipes. He wasn't theatrical or over the top (like Christians portrayed in movies); it struck me as a very moving coda to the evening.
p.s. Thanks zulubaby!

*******
Before heading to Berkeley Dr. Pipes spoke up here in the Seattle area last weekend and I went to see him. He made a number of good points and I am still sorting out my notes; here are a few reflections off the top of my head.

I wonder if those protesters ever listen to Daniel Pipes. He is mild-spoken and struck me as very respectful of Islam. At the same time he was very firm about the difference between militant Islam and normal every-day Islam - which he referred to as "weak Islam." He said that there is something like a civil war going on in Islam right now between militant and weak factions and that the USA has been conscripted to fight on the side of weak Islam, that is, for an Islam that is devotional and capable of developing peacefully facing the exigencies of the modern world.

During the question and answer period someone tried to portray all of Islam as a violent Anti-Life Force. Dr. Pipes was very quick to shut down that line of thinking and distance himself from such extreme viewpoints. He pointed out that the 20th century's high body count was attributable to the West's own self-immolating deviations - communism and totalitarianism.

At the same time he was on point about militant Islam - that we must study it, try to understand it and deal with it. He didn't present hmself as someone who knows all the answers but he was very insistent that militant Islam is growing, that it is a threat, that we must identify it head-on and cut it down. What's to protest - unless you think militant Islam is viable?

Speaking for myself I'd like to say to Islamic militants:

You think you are making some big point by killing innocent men, women and children standing in lines or crowded in marketplaces or buses. Well, life is made for life. You are making no point other than your cause is useless to human discourse. You have chosen to take yourselves out of the human scale and vie for death. That is easy to do. You show that you cannot make your case to the living. You kill and kill and kill: you cannot build on death, you cannot win.

199 Shelagh Delves-Broughton AKA ShiksaGrrrl In T.O  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 12:47:04pm
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said this about Israel and Zionism:

During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”


I'm going to have to research this for I was under the impression that Martin Luther King was sympathetic to Israel earlier on in his life but nearer the end became an anti-semite himself?

Can anyone clarify this please?

200 an old woman  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 2:10:45pm

When a movement has only violence and death to offer, you know it is in its own death-throes. The trick is to isolate the members of the movement, to limit as much as possible the damage it does to passersby. Daniel Pipes and most of the students at the universities mentioned here sound like worthy warriors to whom I am grateful.

201 Shelagh Delves-Broughton AKA ShiksaGrrrl In T.O  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 2:42:05pm

#69

It took me, a very left-wing 20-something, and turned me into a very right-wing 30-something when I was done with it.


[b][quote]
Any man who is under 30 and is not a Liberal has no heart; and
any man who is over 30 and not a Conservative has no brains.
- Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
[/b][/quote]

202 Shelagh Delves-Broughton AKA ShiksaGrrrl In T.O  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 2:47:11pm

#73 I understand the desire to believe in a statistically significant moderate Muslim movement


As a friend who put it simply on another forum I attend suggested, there were also many "moderate Nazi's" in Germany............but they alone were powerless to stop the fanatics amongst them..............until it was far too late! ;-(

203 Shelagh Delves-Broughton AKA ShiksaGrrrl In T.O  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 2:53:51pm

#101 Militant Hindu all 3 sites contain charges too numerous to refute in a single sentence, but I shall begin with the African one.


Well Said!
I am in agreement with you completely.
Some need to research Ghandi a bit more before coming to the conclusions they have.

204 Shelagh Delves-Broughton AKA ShiksaGrrrl In T.O  Sat, Feb 14, 2004 3:20:36pm

Sorry for consecutive Posts, No time earlier to read most of these comments until now.

Above Post of mine:

Perhaps I am the one who needs to research Ghandi a bit closer LOL


Seeing the Photo someone posted at Berkley, the "Palestinian Terrorist" (?) with the Ghandi quote concerning Palestinians in Israel I wasnt aware of until now.

I too assumed his ideas were simply a product of his time, and because he was a man misled too often by peaceful solutions.

I apologize and realize it may be I that needs to investigate further! ;-)

205 tman  Mon, Feb 16, 2004 3:01:56pm

As a follower from afar of Daniel Pipes' website and his weblog, and as on of those 'silly' (see blog 28 above) orthodox Jews out there, I am at once saddened and heartened by Mr Pipes' experiences at UC Bekerley.

Saddened because those who really needed to hear what Pipes was saying couldnt get in to the hall.

Heartened because those that did see what Islam is all about got a brief but no doubt memorable taster, which will help to clarify the situation. In Europe, however, muslims dont seem to require a pretext in order to lay into Jews.

In the UK Jews are always spat at, honked at, shouted at and generally intimidated by one group of people, muslims.

I have never had a Chinese guy come along and start swearing at me. or drive past and yell "death to the Jews" out of the car window.

What the world needs to realise is that the self proclaimed agenda of Islam is to conquer the world. Not by being nice and friendly, but by using force to replace the weaknesses in their arguament.

This will happen in stages, with countries slowly buckling to muslim pressure. This can already be seen in the UK where a TV topical talk show host and ex MP called Kilroy was forced to quit his long running show at the BBC (otherwise known as the Bagdad Broadcasting Corp) after mentioning the simple truth that in many Islamic countries, women and free speech and so on are not really on the agenda.

The muslim council of Great Britiain brewed such a storm that Kilroy was whisked off the air.

Yet at the same time, this hook handed radical cleric called abu hamza who preaches blowing up most of London, killing Jews, English people, Christians etc and who lives well off the social security benefits, is allowed to remain and challenge his ejection order in the courts...with more taxpayers money!

Chronic underestimation of the threat pose by Islam is rife in the world. only when its too late will people wake up to the truth.

The Pipes lecture should be a wake up call, not just to Jews, but the Christians, free people everywhere.

206 TAKE ACTION  Mon, Feb 16, 2004 8:08:39pm

TAKE ACTION

John Cummins, the acting Chancellor, in his typical fashion, let the fuzzie-wuzzies of the MSA and SJP carry on all they wanted; the cops jsut took names and didn't arrest anyone. SJP was banned for a year for disrupting classes in WHeeler Hall. This time they disrupted evening classes in the adjacent building.

Write these people and demand MSA and SJP be suspended for a year at least for disrupting Pipes' speech:

jcummins@uclink.berkekey.edu

kenney@uclink.berkeley.edu (dean of student life)

Demand they be disciplined and those students involved be suspended.

207 Rick Z  Tue, Feb 17, 2004 3:32:28am

# 205 tman:

Couldn't agree with you more. And your personal experience puts to rest the lies of the "peaceful" Islam, only too many governments do not want to hear. It frightens them to be on the forefront of a war with Islam, a clash, not of civilizations, but of culture. What with the multi-culti crowd pushing their "every culture is valid" idiocy, our elected leaders become even more timid. Islam can lie, and have its lies protected, but the Truth is a lonely, if not determined, idea, too easily abandoned in the face of angry Islam (is there any other kind?), which can decimate it without reprobation. Your post is a sad commentary on our times.

208 Richard Miller  Tue, Feb 17, 2004 6:33:30am

Never Again.

209 Lawrence  Tue, Feb 17, 2004 11:21:35am

I made an audio recording of the lecture. If someone wants to give me suggestions for how to disseminate it, I'd be open to doing so.

210 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2004 12:40:30pm
211 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Feb 17, 2004 8:19:04pm
212 Susan  Wed, Feb 18, 2004 8:08:02am

The events that took place at Mr. Pipes lecture, is not a Jewish issue as the MSA and C.A.I.R would like all of Western Society to believe. This is an Issue for all FREE societies.

What we are witnessing is Islam’s true goal, to stifle freedom of speech and to attempt to distract us from the main problem and Islam’s main goal: Islamic terrorism, and Domination of the United States of America by Islam, It is being taught and preached right here in America, every Friday in a mosque near you.

Why have any doubts as to Islam’s goals when it is made very clear to us via C.A.I.R Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). President & CEO of Silicon Expert Technologies, .

" Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant, The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth,"
-Omar Ahmad

This is one of my favorite quotes from Nihad Awad Executive Director of CAIR Former public relations director for the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP)
A palestinian born in Jordan and now a U.S. Citizen.

"I am in support of the Hamas movement." -Nihad Awad


Now is it my imagination or is this man in support of a group of terrorists? Terrorists which kill innocent people.

We keep hearing from people who represent Islam that Islam does not condone the killing of “Innocents”, what we need to do is to ask these representitives of Islam their exact definition of the word “Innocent”,

I recently heard an Islamic teacher saying there were no “Innocents” on 911. I asked him to explain this too me as Muslims also died on 911 in the WTC. He said, any person, Muslim or Non-Muslim who pays taxes to the US Government or support the economy of the US is not considered “Innocent“, as they are indirectly supporting the US military and killing their Muslim Brothers.

America wake up please, we are at war, right here in our own backyards.

213 george of the jungle  Wed, Feb 18, 2004 6:42:12pm

The Muslim Student Association inspirational page :

Some hard facts about what they stand for.

[Link: www.ourenemies.org...]

214 steve frederick  Fri, Feb 20, 2004 12:34:51pm

My wife & I attended the lecture. Yes the PLO apologists were vocal & relentless, but I thougth Dr. Pipes courage & patience were the real beacons of inspiration.

I was fortunate to have had Dr. Pipes as a professor at the U. of Chicago 20 years ago. He has a real love & affection for his chosen course of study. He simply believes that institutional suicidal, radical, islamo-fascism harms the Islamic Civilization. Just as Nazism & Fascism harmed the German & Italian Peoples.

I was never more proud than to have witnessed real courage in watching someone stand up & speak against evil.

215 Dwight  Fri, Feb 20, 2004 1:03:11pm

I found it odd, that on the MSA home page calendar, their Friday prayers were at the Young Womens Christian Association.

216 Laxmi  Thu, Feb 26, 2004 7:33:25pm

I would just like to say for the record, that Ghandi was a rare phenomenon who has grossly been either misunderstood or not properly understood.

If Gandhi is to be quoted out of context, he might seem to be eccentric. But if a thorough study of his ideas is undertaken, the sense of his teachings come to light.

And lastly, Gandhi was perhaps the only Leader of the Modern World who led a whole Nation without any post or authority.

Even Mohammad made himself a 'Prophet of God' to get his followers to belive in Him. Great Leaders such as Lincoln, Washington, Churchhill, Ch De Gaul. etc had authorities or posts of power that made others salute them and follow orders...

Gandhi had none. He did not hold any post nor position. He made no demands for respect nor did he demand blind following.

He only made appeals of the hardest kind.

It is easy to incite a crowd into violence. Just tell them about the atrocities the opposite camp is doing on them.. and tell them to raise in arms and kill the bastards...
THis is easy.

But to tell a huge crowd that violence should be shunned. That the fight must be on totally moral grounds, without violence of any kind - in deed nor in thought and speech.
This is difficult.

Yet, Gandhi achieved this goal. Of a battle against the British Raj without a British Lady being widowed or a British Child being made an orphan.
We did not shed British Blood on our Sacred Ground to expell them, yet we won.

It is not easy to overestimate Gandhi. He is not a leftist, but a realist. He did not call for any proleterian revolution and bloody overthrow of any system, but only fought for freedom.

"Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this earth." - Albert Einstein

One must realise that the work done by D.Pipes is much more effective in combating Islamism than an army of many battalions. The Key is to fight the ideology

Gandhi: Even as wisdom often comes from the mouths of babes, so does it often come from the mouths of old people. The golden rule is to test everything in the light of reason and experience, no matter from where it comes.


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