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Kerry's Voting Record

Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 8:18:47 am PST

John Kerry isn’t just weak on national security; from the evidence of 30 years of voting, he’s opposed to it: Kerry’s Inner Dove. (Hat tip: Colt.)

When he won election to the Senate in 1984, Kerry said that the “issue of war and peace” remained his “passion.” As a first major foreign policy cause, he championed the “nuclear freeze.” Later Kerry battled Sen. Sam Nunn, a hawkish Democrat who chaired the Armed Services Committee, over the funding of research into missile defense, which Kerry wanted to slash.

The litany of weapons systems that Kerry opposed included conventional as well as nuclear equipment: the B-1 bomber, the B-2, the F-15, the F-14A, the F-14D, the AH-64 Apache helicopter, the AV-8B Harrier jet, the Patriot missile, the Aegis air-defense cruiser and the Trident missile. And he sought to reduce procurement of the M1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, the Tomahawk cruise missile and the F-16 jet. Time and again, Kerry fought against what he called “the military-industrial corporate welfare complex that has relentlessly chewed up taxpayers’ dollars.”

Kerry was one of the Senate’s strongest critics of President Ronald Reagan’s policies of military resistance to Communist inroads in this hemisphere. When U.S. troops intervened in Grenada, Kerry denounced the action as “a bully’s show of force.” Kerry lent his name to Medical Aid for El Salvador, a political group that brought humanitarian aid to regions of that country held by Communist guerrillas. And he made himself one of the Senate’s most vigorous opponents of aiding the anti-Communist contras as a means of pressuring Nicaragua’s Sandinista regime. “I see an enormous haughtiness in the United States trying to tell them what to do,” said Kerry. He and Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) traveled to Managua to try to work their own peace deal with strongman Daniel Ortega and thus undercut U.S. policy. Kerry justified this by saying Reagan had failed “to create a climate of trust” with the Sandinistas.

Notice that Kerry voted against every single one of the most powerful weapons in our military arsenal, weapons that are indispensable in our present war.

But then, Kerry doesn’t seem to believe we’re in a war.

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1 Fellay Timi  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:20:58am

Kerry obviously hasnt been shopping at the right place

2 Jolly Roger  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:22:10am

I'm presuming the reason he didn't vote against the rest of our weapons systems was only because he didn't show up those days.

3 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:24:37am

Citizen Smash has a breakdown of Kerry's votes on military spending, amongst other goodies.

4 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:24:51am
Notice that Kerry voted against every single one of the most powerful weapons in our military arsenal, weapons that are indispensable in our present war.

Exactly. I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it here: without the weapons systems listed, Afghanistan and Iraq would have been quagmires.

Thanks for the hat-tip.

5 dc  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:26:11am

#1 Fellay Timi

Absolutely brilliant web site !

It's a "must visit" for all card carrying members of the LLL.

6 mateo_g  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:27:24am

How dare you question Kerry's patriotism???

/LLL

7 billhedrick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:28:07am

I am also reluctant to believe he's a war hero, picking up 3 purple hearts in 4 months of active duty seems a touch suspicious to me. There should be an investigation.

8 Solomon X  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:31:26am

For fun check out Mark Steyn's "The John Kerry Cancelled Weapons System of the Day" every day for "thrilling tales of America’s fighting men and women in action using stuff Senator Kerry didn't want them to have!"

Apparently a new system every day. He may be able to keep it up to November, apparently.

“We are continuing a defense buildup that is consuming our resources with weapons systems that we don’t need and can’t use.” - John Kerry, campaigning for the US Senate in 1984
9 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:31:43am

The question is: how many months would you go without sex if it somehow (lord knows how) guaranteed Bush a victory in November?

I'd suggest a number, but I'm afraid Mrs. Justice is reading this.

10 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:32:02am

#7 billhedrick

Maybe, maybe not. But an investigation would be a disaster for the Republicans, whatever the findings. A decent opposition to Kerry's stance on security can be found looking at his voting record and his testimony. The contradiction between his war hero status and his apparent committment to hollowing out our military would play better than what would be branded as 'smearing'.

11 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:32:38am

The other part of this is Crybaby Kerry's response to criticism of his voting record. Apparently... Republicans aren't supposed to question his voting record because he's a Vietnam war hero... and telling the truth about his record is dirty politics.

Some war hero. Whack him with the truth and he cries like Nancy Kerrigan... Hmmm... John F. Kerrigan. I like it.

12 Richard Lubbock  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:33:21am

LLL? I speculate this stands for Lunatic Liberal Left. But then possibly it doesn't. Set me straight on this, please.

13 Ice Kareem  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:33:38am

Now is the time to push for the proof of 3 Purple Hearts in 4 months. What were his wounds? He released plenty of info from his file but not a scrap from his medical records.

If you want to do your two cents worth, ask that question far and wide until it picks up some steam. My bet is that they were very minor since he applied for the Purple Hearts himself so he could get out early.

Ask far and wide!

14 Jamie  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:34:17am

#7 Bill:

I am also reluctant to believe he's a war hero, picking up 3 purple hearts in 4 months of active duty seems a touch suspicious to me. There should be an investigation.

Perhaps the Urban Legends Resource Page would be of assistance, as the "John Kerry's medals are suspicious" hoax has been pushed by the idiotarian wing of the GOP for quite some time to no avail:

[Link: www.snopes.com...]

15 Dirk Diggler  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:35:23am

After weeks of withering criticism, President Bush has finally begun his counter-attack:

"They now agree that it's better that Saddam Hussein is out of power. They just didn't support removing Saddam from power," Bush said, a smile growing across his face. "Maybe they were hoping he would lose the next Iraqi election."

I think that President Bush's use of humor is a nice touch. It will offer a sharp contrast to the chocked full of rage Dems. Here's more:

"The other party's nomination battle is still playing out," he said. "The candidates are an interesting group, with diverse opinions: for tax cuts and against them; for NAFTA [the North American Free Trade Agreement] and against NAFTA; for the Patriot Act and against the Patriot Act; in favor of liberating Iraq and opposed to it. And that's just one senator from Massachusetts."

A campaign approach which mixes humor with illustrations of how fundamentally unserious the Democratic candidates are on issues of national security would serve this President well I think.

16 Westward Ho  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:35:47am

CHARLES,
Thank you for your BLOG,
THANK's ..........

17 Kevin P.  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:36:37am

FYI;

[Link: ice.he.net...]

Very eye-opening details about John "Effin" Kerry at this web site.

18 Darn Tootin  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:36:56am

This is going to be a blowout! Kerry doesn't stand a chance. Just ask yourself, who would you rather have fighting to the death against pedophile muhammudite, Ayman al-Zawahri, George "Bring em on" Bush, or John 'waffle pander' Kerry"? Not even close!

19 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:37:55am

#14 Jamie

Re: The second pic on the right on your web site.

I hate that picture of that fat "palestinian" "woman" and that red gastropod thing trying to escape her filthy hummus-hole. But what's that triangular thing that guy seems to be getting ready to stuff down her throat?

20 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:38:24am

#4 Colt

Mad props on the hat tip there, T-Alpha!

21 BeckoningChasm  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:39:28am

I'm starting to think that the media folks (NYT, WaPo, etc) have decided that Kerry is their new Clinton. IE, whenever anything bad about him surfaces, they are NOT going to cover it at all, or just dismiss it outright, or claim it as "right-wing paranoia." They want him elected and they are going to make sure that nothing stops him.

I, personally, don't think he'll win. (Or should.) But I'm starting to get worried. All these scandals, etc, and nothing in the "mainstream media." All the while, Bush's military record remains on the table despite all the evidence that he did his duty.

22 hellcat  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:40:49am

That would be entertaining: a debate on weaponry between Kerry and Rumsfield.

23 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:41:11am

Let's not go after John Effin Kerry's war record or his medals. His post-war record is what's important.

24 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:41:30am

#2 Jolly Roger

LOL

25 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:42:55am

#12 Richard L.
You're correct about LLL.

The more I read about John Kerry the more words escape me with respect to describing what an awful man he is.

26 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:43:06am

#2 Jolly Roger

Ya can't catch wealthy widows if ya ain't out chasin' 'em.

27 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:43:08am

#20 papijoe

Alpha? As in, the superior one? :-)

I'm holding out for another one, regarding this suspected honour killing.

28 Ed Moran abu 17 w/ fog, no tornadoes in HOU  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:43:12am

What was Kerry's views/voting record on Nimitz class carriers like the USS Chuck Boat (CVN-70), where I consumed 3000 meals or more, and probably had over 1K BM's.?

29 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:43:27am

Colt,

Good show!

Kerry's voting record is a disgrace when it comes to defense and intel issues. He's voted to cancel or scale back practically every program that is vital to the current DoD efforts. I can't even imagine what our military would look like if Kerry got into office and started his slash and burn of DoD programs, without a care about terrorist threats, since those are simply a law enforcement matter (and he'd much rather deal with funding first responders instead of funding the capabilities necessary for first-strikes against terrorist strongholds).

30 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:45:10am

#28 Ed Moran

What's a BM? I don't know as I've ever had one of those ;-)

31 Ayatollah Ghilmeini- Believe in the Victory  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:45:31am

Let's give Kerry his due- his record is perfect.

32 Lickmuffin  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:45:52am

#15 Dirk --

Do you have a link to those Bush quotes? I'd like to e-mail the story to a friend.

Thanks!

33 zhombre  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:46:19am

#2 Jolly Roger

Do you dare suggest that Senator Kerry was AWOL from his duties in the Senate?

34 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:46:25am

#29 lawhawk

Thanks :-)

I can't even imagine what our military would look like if Kerry got into office and started his slash and burn of DoD programs, without a care about terrorist threats, since those are simply a law enforcement matter

{Shudder}

I guess we'd be using M-60 tanks, F-4 Phantoms, UH-1 Hueys... Basically, using (appropriately for John Kerry) Vietnam-era equipment.

Using for what, I don't know. Probably enforcing the US-led peacekeeping mission in Israel, or whatever Kerry would do to enforce 'peace'.

35 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:47:19am

#21 BeckoningChasm

I'm starting to think that the media folks (NYT, WaPo, etc) have decided that Kerry is their new Clinton. IE, whenever anything bad about him surfaces, they are NOT going to cover it at all, or just dismiss it outright, or claim it as "right-wing paranoia." They want him elected and they are going to make sure that nothing stops him.

IMO, the media folks are more against Bush than they are "for" Kerry; that is, they'll support anybody who is running against Bush, no matter how unsavory & questionable his/her past, or record as a politician.

36 hellcat  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:47:50am

KERRY'S GOT MY VOTE! - as prime minister for the PA.

37 grayp  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:47:52am
He and Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) traveled to Managua to try to work their own peace deal with strongman Daniel Ortega and thus undercut U.S. policy. Kerry justified this by saying Reagan had failed “to create a climate of trust” with the Sandinistas.


Isn't that a violation of the Logan Act or something?

38 LordOfTheFlies  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:48:05am

He supported medical aid to peasants in regions of El Salvador that weren't held by the notorious US backed military? And he didn't support the terrorist actions brought against Nicaragua which were condemed by the World Court? I mean those bastards overthrew a dictator we supported for years at great expence to the American people! Kerry should be arrested immediately, and the World Court bombed.

39 Brandi in AZ  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:48:20am

Richard Lubbock (#12)

You are correct! LLL stands for any combination of "liberal," "loon(ey)" and "left." I suppose you could throw a "ludicrous" in there, too.

As for Kerry and the weapons systems that he didn't like, I wonder if anyone has found any that he did like. He could possibly make the case that he just didn't think the Bradley or the Apache were good enough systems and that some other systems were better, but I'm betting that there were no alternative systems. He simply wanted our military to be at a permanent disadvantage. Two weeks before the U.S.S. Cole was blown up by terrorists, a local dumbass at my university wrote an editorial in the student newspaper in which he stated that the U.S. no longer had any serious enemies and we should simply sink our warships and let all our tanks and planes rust. He was serious. Now, of course, the commander of the university's ROTC ripped him a new hole the following day, and many student veterans filled the "letters to the editor" page, but so far as I know, he never really recanted. After the Cole happened, he essentially stated that it was all America's fault. I guess we shouldn't have had the ship to begin with, and so it wouldn't have gotten blown up and we wouldn't have lost 17 sailors. I bring this up because I think at heart, this is what Kerry feels. it's been said that he is an internationalist, a transnational progressivist (tranzies), if you will, and for tranzies, a militarily, economically, and culturally predominant U.S. is seriously f*cking up the global order. Since it may very well be impossible for any other single nation or even group of nations to build up to our level, the only answer is somehow cause us to back down and shrink into ourselves, and that's where people like Kerry come in. Draw your own conclusions.

40 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:49:52am

#38 LordOfTheFlies

Buzz off.

41 David Simon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:54:20am

#7 billhedrick - I client of mine forwarded me an e-mail from one of his old shipmates who asks the same question. He also questions whether Kerry could have collected that many medals without having any visible signs of his injuries, such as a limp. Typically, combat on Swift boats was at close range. The probability that Kerry could have sustained that many minor injuries in such a short period of time is very low. He also notes that Kerry used the three purple hearts to get home eight months before his tour of duty ended. Suspicious indeed.

42 Dirk Diggler  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:54:39am
43 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:56:51am

#41 David Simon

I don't think it's all that surprising that someone wanted to get the hell out of harm's way. Kerry's voting record in the Senate is what matters at this point.

44 Jamie  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:56:59am

#19 Thom,

I dunno. I've often wondered that myself. Glad to know, I'm not the only one!

That pair should be on the receiving end of a "work accident".

45 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:57:14am

#38
Kerry support the dictator Daniel Ortega & his Sandinista hordes, who were thrown out on their socialist keisters (sp?) the minute the people of Nicaragua could vote in free elections. He was opposed to the removal of Saddam Hussein (depending on which day it was), and I suspect he will be the best friend the NorKorComs ever had (much like his predecessors Bill Clinton and James Carter). With a track record of support for despots like this why would anybody want him to be a senator, much less a president?

46 Kevin P.  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:58:43am

More on John "effin" Kerry;

Vietnam Veterans against John Kerry.

[Link: www.usvetdsp.com...]

47 SwordofSharon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:58:49am

Hey, I have an idea: Let's put our nation's national security in his hands!

48 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:59:14am

I don't think that this is going to be an important issue in regards to the true American populace. All of these weapons systems didn't need to be upgraded at the time. For example, the Cobra is still in use today. Why did we need to spend billions for the Apache. We are years ahead in technology regarding our military. If anything, this will be a plus for Kerry. All of the billions that could have been saved had others had the courage to veto these bills could have been put to better use with universal health care and more money for welfare programs and aid to other countries so we wouldn't need to fight them.

49 Camel Prophet  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:59:24am

OT:
Michael Moore woos Germany:

[Link: medienkritik.typepad.com...]

"Lachnummer" means: laughing stock.

50 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:59:38am

Logins for washpost:

Account #1
lala2@mailinator.com
lalala
Account #2
lala@mailinator.com
lalala
Account #3
urgh@mailinator.com
badpost
Account #4
fred
fred
Account #5
fred
eatme

51 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:59:57am

#44 Jamie

It looks like a tortilla chip with melted cheese.

52 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:00:00am
I'm starting to think that the media folks (NYT, WaPo, etc) have decided that Kerry is their new Clinton. IE, whenever anything bad about him surfaces, they are NOT going to cover it at all, or just dismiss it outright, or claim it as "right-wing paranoia." They want him elected and they are going to make sure that nothing stops him.

Well, duh...

NYT/WaPo/CNN/ABCNews Questions for Bush:

1. Mr. President, how are you going to get us out of the Iraq quagmire that you recklessly took the country into by lying about WMD's?

2. Mr. President, when you lie in bed at night under your mounds of oil money, do you think of the 80 million jobs that have been lost since you stole the election?

3. Mr. President, you've been accused of manipulating the terrorist threat for political gain, haven't you?

4. Mr. President, when you throw puppies into cement mixers, do you use an overhand throw or is it underhanded... like your policies to enrich the wealthiest 1% of Americans.

5. Mr. President, if you are re-elected, can we expect you to continue to try to pack the courts with extremist right-wing judges, engage in reckless wars, suppress political rights in the name of your so-called "War on Terror," and economic policies that favor the rich... or will your next term be more moderate?

NYT/WaPo/CNN/ABCNews Questions for John Kerry:

1. Mr. President... I mean, Senator Kerry, how are you going to restore American standing in the world, which hates us because of the Iraq quagmire that Bush lied about WMD to drag us into?

2. Senator Kerry... tell us again how you're going to eliminate the deficit, provide free health care and education for all, and create millions of new, high-paying jobs for everyone who wants one.

3. Senator Kerry, you have a reputation of being a maverick politician, an independent thinker whose foremost concern is doing what is best for all Americans... how did you get that reputation?

4. Senator Kerry, is it vicious and unpatriotic to discuss your voting record, or is that just what one should expect from the fanatical right-wing Republicans?

5. Can we hug you?

53 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:00:50am
All of the billions that could have been saved had others had the courage to veto these bills could have been put to better use with universal health care and more money for welfare programs and aid to other countries so we wouldn't need to fight them.

You have got to be frickin' kidding me.

54 Ed Moran abu 17 w/ fog, no tornadoes in HOU  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:01:02am

FreeRepublic piece that Mark Steyn links to shows that Kerry called for completely cancelling all versions of the F-14. Would he have had the Navy use 20 year + old F-4 Phantom's for fleet air defense, or maybe hope that A-7E Corsair IIs would be able to hold off Russian MiGs with a 20 mm cannon and 2 AIM-9 rails?


Cancelling the Aegis cruisers would have meant those A-7Es and F-4s would have had a lot of work to do.


Did Charles fix the "backslash" problem with quotes?

55 Macula  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:02:36am

From the comments section at Citizen Smash

I quote

"I've sent in a suggestion that the RNC should use.

[Footage of troops assaulting Iraqi positions.]

"John Kerry voted against the F-14, F-15, and B-1."

[Air support disappears]

"John Kerry voted against the M2 Bradly APC"

[Troops are now walking]

"John Kerry voted against the M1 Abrahms tank"

[Tanks disappear]

...
[and so on]

...

[Troops are in skivvies carrying clubs]

"George Bush will make sure your sons and daughters will have the weapons needed to survive and win."

Posted by: Gary and the Samoyeds at February 24, 2004 06:56 AM


Could not have said it better myself

56 DB  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:02:46am

#53, LOL!!

57 Jolly Roger  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:02:59am

#41 David Simon

Read the link from #14 to Snopes. I got that email too. Was going to send it on to my Dem friends/family, but after reading the debunking I'm not nearly as inclined to put forth the proposition that Kerry's medals were not deserved.

It's not like he got an arm blown off, but the wounds still sound legit.

58 DB  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:03:41am

I meant #52...

59 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:04:13am

#48 Sgt. Slaughter

We are years ahead in technology regarding our military.

Why is that? Because money is spent keeping our technology ahead, and on R&D. Contrary to Kerry's wishes.

60 Let's Roll  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:06:23am

OT -- Diplomat: IAEA Says Hard to Tell if Iran Disclosed All

Well, maybe we should put together an agency to determine that.

Oh... wait a minute... that's what the IAEA is for.

61 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:06:28am

#52 VtheK
LOL! I have one criticism re: question #5 directed at Pres. Bush:

5. Mr. President, if you are re-elected, can we expect you to continue to

The proper question from the LLL media would be "Mr President, if you are re-selected. Remember, the LLL are still not convinced Bush won the first time. But their grip on reality has always been tenuous at best.

62 Geepers  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:06:28am

Want to put a quantitative measure on Kerry's Senate voting record?

The Center for Security Policy has analyzed more than 75 votes over the past decade cast by Mr. Kerry and other senators. The Washington-based conservative think tank gave Mr. Kerry one of the lowest ratings of any senator.

In 1995, for instance, the group gave Mr. Kerry a rank of five out of a possible 100. In 1997, Mr. Kerry earned a zero from the Center for Security Policy, which identifies its goal as "promoting international peace through American strength."

A zero? And he claims to be strong on defense? Sorry but when you vote against every military appropriation bill, your not even attempting to gauge the importance of those bills in regards to the national defense. You're voting against them on ideology.

And how about this:

Republicans have also produced a proposed bill that Mr. Kerry authored in 1996 to cut the deficit. The proposal, which would have cut spending on defense and intelligence by $6.5 billion, never attracted a co-sponsor or came to a vote.
"This bill was so reckless that it had no co-sponsors," said Mr. Racicot.

This is how he shows his support for our troops? By sponsoring legislation to cut defense spending? I'd like to see him explain that.

63 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:06:39am

#52 V the K

LMAO!

64 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:07:42am

#62 Geepers

Didn't he come out as further to the left than Ted Kennedy? Or was that a different bit of research.

65 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:08:03am

#48 Sgt. Slaughter

For example, the Cobra is still in use today.

You don't think that the Cobra is flying around on it's original weapon systems, do you? The airframe may be original, but most of the copter has been upgraded over the years with new technology derived from other programs.

66 EW1(SG)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:08:07am

#33 zhombre: Who's AWOL now?

#28 Ed Moran: Three guesses, and the last two don't count.

#30 andrew: I don't think I've ever heard of such a serious case of constipation before.

67 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:09:14am

DB and Mickthemick... thank you... but at the risk of patting myself on the back, question #3 to Bush is my favorite.

68 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:09:29am

#59 Colt

Oh c'mon. Do you really think that it takes billions upon billions for R&D. I would say that at least 50 percent of the money (our tax money) goes to line the pockets of the military industrial complex and it's lobbyists. I know that this is an unpopular subject here what with all the blind support of Bushie but our country needs internal economic security more than military strenghth. We should have put that money into the economy.

69 Unmutual  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:10:13am

Who the heck is John Kerry?

/state of Texas

70 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:10:29am

#39 Brandi in AZ

I agree with your words:

"...I think at heart, this is what Kerry feels. it's been said that he is an internationalist, a transnational progressivist (tranzies), if you will, and for tranzies, a militarily, economically, and culturally predominant U.S. is seriously f*cking up the global order. Since it may very well be impossible for any other single nation or even group of nations to build up to our level, the only answer is somehow cause us to back down and shrink into ourselves, and that's where people like Kerry come in. "

I am sure that is the strategy of the subversives.
The money paid by his wife to all the possible enemies of the States is clear evidence.

I would add that even a very strong (bio/and-or/atomic) multiple attack on the USA, able to trigger some weeks of real problems (no water, no power, no gas etc. etc. ) could allow subversive forces and islamopigs to try to attack strategic areas of the world (oil production areas, strategic raw materials production areas etc) and change the whole world balance of power. In this scenario Israel would probably suffer a deadly strike and could only answer with extreme weapons.

All this would be much easier with a President who disarms the Army and the Navy and pushes for class warfare (high taxes for middle uppers and rich people etc.)

71 Jim in Virginia  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:10:49am

EJ Dionne: attacking Kerry's voting record is unfair

WaPo today. He starts out complaining how Bush surrogates attack Kerrys' actions in his youth. Example: Saxby Chambliss, who unfairly attacked Max Cleland's voting record, is doing the same thing to Kerry.
I rarely agree with Dionne but I used to like him. If he can't do better than this he ought to give up.

72 jimmytheclaw  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:10:52am

#9 Wild Justice 2/24/2004 08:31AM PST

its dems that cant keep it in their pants

73 Rimshot  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:10:59am

#30 andrew

"What's a BM? I don't know as I've ever had one of those "

It's a common type of brown trout that swims in stainless fishbowls in the US Navy. While serving on an old WWII submarine in the late 60's many new pig-boat sailors had the questionable privalge of being splattered by 'fish guts' when trying to empty these fish bowls with LP air. Exciting!!!:)

74 gymnast  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:11:25am

#57, Jolly Roger. Kerrys "hearts" were comparable to high school band medals for split lips and blisters. He put himself in for his awards. If he wants to use them as "bono fides" I would like to see the paperwork.

75 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:12:42am

#69 Unmutual

LOL

76 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:13:19am

By the way, is there any expertise on this forum on programming languages (C++, 3GL and Ada) used in current military mission planning and battle management programs? Email me off-line. Thanks.

77 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:13:52am

OT - Canadian sues Saudis over imprisonment

London — Lawyers working for seven men who were kept in a Saudi jail for 2½ years, including Canadian Bill Sampson, have begun legal proceedings in an attempt to sue Saudi officials they say were responsible for their torture.

Good for them. I hope they nail Saudi balls to their office doors ...

78 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:14:01am

#48 Sgt. Slaughter

For example, the Cobra is still in use today.

Unrealistic example. The Super Cobra of today is a far cry from the Cobras of Vietnam. Outside of the Apache, the Super Cobra is arguably the most advanced attack helicopter in the world.

I wonder how Kerry voted on the upgrades? Oh my bad, of course he was against them!

79 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:14:51am

#65 RIP Ford

You don't think that the Cobra is flying around on it's original weapon systems, do you? The airframe may be original, but most of the copter has been upgraded over the years with new technology derived from other programs.

Of course not. But it's mostly upgraded through electrical and computer systems. Do you think they spent billions to upgrade from a video disk to DVD. Same concept. All of the money that is being thrown away at these projects. Money that can be used to pay off our debts to the UN so they have the funds to do what it was designed to do. Why do we have troops going to Haiti-because the UN is underfunded and therefore cannot do it's duty.

80 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:16:06am

Hey RWC

Do you have a yahoo mail account?

81 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:16:47am

#68 Sgt. Slaughter

Do you really think that it takes billions upon billions for R&D.

Yes.

I would say that at least 50 percent of the money (our tax money) goes to line the pockets of the military industrial complex and it's lobbyists.

Evidence?

I know that this is an unpopular subject here what with all the blind support of Bushie but our country needs internal economic security more than military strenghth. We should have put that money into the economy.

If you think there is 'blind support' here, well, you're wrong (to be polite about it).

All of the billions that could have been saved had others had the courage to veto these bills could have been put to better use with universal health care and more money for welfare programs and aid to other countries so we wouldn't need to fight them.

Right, because socialism is always good for the economy - no wastage there!

As for aid, Saddam and the Taliban didn't sponsor terrorist or treat their people like shit because they needed more international aid.

82 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:16:54am

OT,

While the Jordgyptians are murdering civilians and setting fire to their crude arts and crafts projects, Israeli scientists continue to make valuable contributions to human knowledge and advancement.

83 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:17:26am

#78 reaganite


I wonder how Kerry voted on the upgrades? Oh my bad, of course he was against them

Some links that state this as fact would be nice. And please don't to link to Free Republic. Contrary to the popular belief here, that is a biased site.

84 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:18:10am
I know that this is an unpopular subject here what with all the blind support of Bushie

Nevermind, I'm wasting my time.

85 Morgan  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:18:15am

OT

Surprising sanity on an editorial page.

[Link: www.canada.com...]

86 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:18:34am
Do you think they spent billions to upgrade from a video disk to DVD. Same concept.

Are you really a sergeant?

And by the way, 50 Marines are going to Haiti to secure the embassy. The UN won't go because the member states (there are others besides the US, just so you know) don't want to send troops.

87 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:19:02am

Sgt, Slaughter Military spending is like insurance. Right now, the USA is spending less the 4% of GDP on defense... an incredibly low figure. (For all the talk of a massive Bush defense build-up, he's actually procuring fewer tanks, ships, and aircraft than Jimmy Carter). Look at your auto and homeowner insurance... I bet it's a lot more than 4%.

Besides which, money spent on defense doesn't "line the pockets of the military industrial complex" it pays soldiers, engineers, and ... yes, even unionized production workers. Personally, I would much rather they get taxpayer money than some welfare queen, drug addict, public education bureaucrat, or performance artist.

88 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:19:25am

#79 Sgt. Slaughter

Why do we have troops going to Haiti-because the UN is underfunded and therefore cannot do it's duty.
In Port-au-Prince on Monday, about 50 Marines in full battle gear rushed off a U.S. Air Force transport plane and secured a perimeter around the international airport.

The second quote is from a Yahoo! article about the "troops" going to Haiti (a whole platoon....some deployment!). These Marines are going there to secure the U.S. Embassy, which answers your first question. Funds have nothing to do with it. Lack of will, however, does. I'm not faulting the U.S., either. Let the EU and/or the Organization of American States take care of Haiti. Or let the U.N. do it.

89 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:19:44am

#80 andrew

LOL. No. I am looking for links to post for Sgt. Troller.

90 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:22:18am

Votes against every new piece of military technology in the last (almost) 40 years...opposed anti-Communist actions...gets a zero ranking for national defense and security...Kerry seems like one who would retreat into his own little hole in the ground and to hell with anyone else in the world. For all their talk about supporting social programs and humanitarian aid, it seems to me (keyword: SEEMS) that these LLL people are more concerned about themselves than anyone else in the world.

91 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:22:26am
Of course not. But it's mostly upgraded through electrical and computer systems. Do you think they spent billions to upgrade from a video disk to DVD. Same concept.

No. For one thing, portable consumer media storage units don't get shot at. For another, upgrading aircraft systems is never cheap. Even airlines have to spend millions on avionics upgrades... and they aren't flying 40 year old equipment into combat zones.

Man, you really are an idiot.

92 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:23:33am

#79 Sgt. Slaughter

Why do we have troops going to Haiti-because the UN is underfunded

The last I heard, 50 troops were heading to Haiti to protect our embassy. That is not something you can rely on the UN to do, even if they had the manpower. My main point was, the systems developed from the new series of attack choppers finds it's way into the older versions when they are upgraded. No new helicopters, no new real substantial development in hardware. In the end, a minor point in your original argument. The bulk of your post was putting money back into the system, rather than defence. A strong economy can only be maintained in stable times, and a strong defensive force is the only way to protect that. You can't have a working economy when you are under constant attack.

93 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:23:52am
Do you think they spent billions to upgrade from a video disk to DVD. Same concept.

Anyone have any idea how much inventing the DVD cost?

94 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:24:35am

Colt (#86)

Speaking of the UN, I wonder if they'll hold an emergency meeting about this: Mutilation horror in DR Congo

At least 100 people, mostly unarmed civilians, have been killed in a wave of horrific attacks in southern Democratic Republic of Congo.

One survivor told the BBC's Arnaud Zajtman in Lubumbashi that militiamen drained the blood of those they killed and put it into bottles.

"After they had cut off the sexual organs, they walked away with them. They took the victims' blood in flasks," said Claude Panza wa Losol, 22, nursing a bullet wound in his arm in the town's Don Bosco hospital.

The military commander of Katanga province, General Alengbia Nzambe, showed our correspondent pictures of the bodies of seven soldiers who had their faces and genitals cut off.

Our correspondent says that many fighters believe that using the body parts of their victims to make charms will make them more powerful.

Where is ISM when you need them? Where are the human shields? Too busy obsessing about the Jews, perhaps?

95 Jheka  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:24:46am

O/T:

Have you guys seen this from Merde in France??? (Found via my good buddy Allah)

I was about to type "unbelievable" but then I remembered the last 2+ years and came to my senses.

96 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:24:56am

The troll has not been answered about the fact that giving money in help to other Countries we would not be attacked:

we have been attacked by an army of irregulars built and paid by the richest Country/family in the world, the Saudis. Rich in the trillions...

And, by the way, we pay 25 per cent of all the UN expenses, and I think we could cut on that, instead of cutting on the military as you idiot subversive would like.

97 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:26:37am

#87 V the K

First off, real funny link there. Are we in kindergarten.

Personally, I would much rather they get taxpayer money than some welfare queen, drug addict, public education bureaucrat, or performance artist.

Yeah. That would be a great world we would live in. No art would make for a rather dreary cityscape don't you think. OK fine then, don't doll out the money to - as you so compassionately put it - welfare queen, drug addict. How about more funding for the programs that help them get out of the mess that they are in. We need to break the cycle. Individual on poverty is distressed so he/she turns to drugs which further depletes their income and so on and so forth. We should take the money that would have been saved and give them a grant or loan to start them on the right path.

98 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:26:51am
Anyone have any idea how much inventing the DVD cost?

You think someone as clueless as Sgt. Laughter even cares? He apparently believes technology is produced by elves and appears magically... the only cost being what the greedy culture of corporate oppression squeezes out of us.

99 J. Lichty  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:27:41am

Here is another great example of Kerry lying: (via Boker Tov Boulder)

Recently John Kerry indicated that he would solve the Arab-Israeli conflict by appointing either Jimmy Carter, James Baker or BJ Clinton to a position as special envoy. Needless to say that many in the pro-Israel community were aghast at the first two suggestions. So Kerry blamed the insertion of those names into the list on a "staffer."

Read the rest to show that this projection does not hold up in daylight. Kerry LIED!!!!!! The details will horrify you if you are not sufficiently horrified already.

100 Kevin P.  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:28:17am

Benedict Arnold & John Kerry

He was a patriot. He led forces in the critical capture of an enemy position early in the war effort.

Five months later, this American commander led an expedition of 1,150 riflemen against an enemy's capital city. The American commander drove his men hard through the wilderness, overcoming leaky boats, spoiled provisions, treacherous rivers and near starvation to arrive at the capital in November, his force reduced to 650 men.

He fought on. Joining with another unit he pressed the attack to another key enemy city where his troops took heavy losses and he himself was wounded. As he charged at the enemy, his leg was taken out from under him – an enemy round running right through his thigh.

And yet, he fought on! For five more years he fought valiantly and was wounded in action a second time (again shot in the leg). No general was more imaginative than he, no field officer more daring, no soldier more courageous.

Yet Benedict Arnold has gone down in history not as a hero but as a villain, a military traitor who, as commander of the American fort at West Point, N.Y., in 1780, schemed to hand it over to the British.

He deserved to be called a traitor. And he deserves to be synonymous with treason.

When America had a clear moral vision, we were able to see that people like Benedict Arnold were traitors. Yet today, a man who was far less valiant and far more treasonous is about to be nominated by the Democrats for the presidency.

John Kerry couldn't hold a candle to Benedict Arnold in terms of service. Arnold served longer, with greater distinction, and in more dangerous environs.

Kerry has outdone Arnold in only one respect – Kerry's treason was more insidious, more immoral and more harmful to America than Arnold could muster.

Sadly, America has lost her ability to understand issues of treason. So, the name Arnold remains interchangeable with treason and Kerry continues to be called a "hero." On many of America's elementary-school playgrounds, boys will still playfully call each other "Benedict Arnold" in order to convey a feeling of betrayal. These children will see no moral dichotomy in understanding clearly that Arnold was a traitor, while a man of lesser character vies for the presidency. This is not the fault of our children, but the fault of American adults who have grown weary of right and wrong.

So, Kerry who sold out to the communists is a hero. Kerry who accused American soldiers of horrific war crimes without a shred of evidence is a hero. Kerry who threw his medals at the White House in the 1970s is a hero. Kerry who cavorted with Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and the radical left at a time we still had brave soldiers on the field of battle is a hero. Kerry who voted against every major weapons system now defending us in the war on terror is a hero. Kerry who wanted to abolish the CIA is now a hero.

After all, the argument goes: "That was 30 years ago!" And yet, Benedict Arnold (rightfully) is still considered a traitor 224 years later.

We have indeed lost much of our moral compass in two short centuries.

101 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:28:30am
How about more funding for the programs that help them get out of the mess that they are in.

"Programs" don't get people out of poverty... getting off their ass and getting a job gets people out of poverty.

102 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:29:11am

#94 zulubaby

Where is ISM when you need them? Where are the human shields? Too busy obsessing about the Jews, perhaps?

I wouldn't go out there without a gun and a cyanide capsule. But then I'm not the heroic-ISM sort...

103 Geepers  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:29:51am

Colt (#64),

Didn't he come out as further to the left than Ted Kennedy? Or was that a different bit of research.

Yeah, but I can't find a source.

104 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:31:30am

OT: A random thought that occurred to me last night.

Does anyone doubt that, if the Israelis hadn't taken out Osirak in 1981, Saddam would have nuked Tehran by the end of the decade in the course of the Iraq-Iran war?

So in a very real sense, the Mullahs probably owe their lives to the IAF.

Three cheers for life's little ironies.

105 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:31:53am

#101 V the K

How do you expect them to do that when they don't even have a suit to go interview in? Kinda hard to get off your ass when the whole of society is working to hold you back through their prejudices.

106 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:32:17am

This troll is one of the worst ever seen:

for him, you go from poverty to drugs (!!!with which money the poor can buy drugs is not said) not from drugs to being an idiot and to poverty.

Fun, if it were not a sample of what our schools produce today...

Oh, he's soooooo sensitive...

Arts and money to the addicts, and no Army.

Sensitive like osamathepig...

107 BLUE STAR  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:33:19am

J(ane) F(onda) Kerry

check it out:

www.nojohnkerry.org

enjoy!

108 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:33:21am

#105 Sgt Slaughter

How do you expect them to do that when they don't even have a suit to go interview in?

Stop buying heroin and use the money to buy a suit...

109 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:33:26am

#105 Sgt. Slaughter

How do you expect them to do that when they don't even have a suit to go interview in?

You do like I did, and borrow one. I still don't own a suit, even after getting the job.

110 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:34:02am

#94 Zulubaby

Speaking of the UN, I wonder if they'll hold an emergency meeting about this: Mutilation horror in DR Congo

You know as well as anybody that the UN is too busy bitching about the 'Apartheid Wall', and the way that it 'humiliates the Palesitinian people', 'steals Palestinian land', 'forces the Palestinian people to live in unconnected "Bantustans"', etc., etc, ad nauseum. I find it ironic that, even though there is an African serving as the Sec. General of the UN, problems in Africa like slaughter and torture in the Congo, are somehow off its radar. I guess the UN is still taking queues from Bill Clinton, a man who made it into the African American Hall of Fame by doing f***-all for Africans anywhere, as Bob Geldof pointed out. (anybody remember Rwanda? That happened on Slick Willy's watch).

111 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:34:21am

Oh, sorry. I implied that an individual as responsibility for his or herself. My mistake, that was insensitive.

112 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:35:31am

#111 Colt

LOL
How dare you hold someone to such a high standard? :p

113 fireman  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:36:07am

OT - You all realize that this tragedy is a racist Zionist plot, don't you?

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

/sarcasm off

114 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:37:35am

#108 Colt

have you ever known anyone with a heroin addiction. My girlfriend had one for over 3 years. It is not that easy to quit. It takes a lot of money, which most do not have. Luckily I got a big raise and was able to help get her treatment.

115 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:39:09am

It's funny... 'cos when I did my taxes this year, I realized what I paid the government the last couple of years is more than I used to earn... like right out of college... I earned below poverty wages at first, and I didn't even own a suit... but that didn't make me become a drug addict. I kept myself clean, took temp jobs (And frankly, some of those jobs sucked.) to gain experience, and worked my way up. Frankly, I'm not that much smarter or ambitious than anyone else, so I don't see what they can't do it either.

116 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:40:12am

Sgt. Slaughter,

Why did you add an "s" to your name?

It should be Sgt. Laughter.

117 drdrake  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:40:24am
“I see an enormous haughtiness in the United States


And his name is John "F@@k***" Kerry.

118 gymnast  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:41:45am

#114, Sgt Slaughter is either a straw man or a FI.

119 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:42:06am

#106 Poitiers-Lepanto

Fun, if it were not a sample of what our schools produce today...

Of course. Without proper funding do you think that they can do much better. My girlfriend is an middle school teacher and she has to purchase her own supplies- she doesn't even get paid to go to the store, she must do it on her own time. It's gotten to the point where she is using test over by making copies onto the back of previous ones.

120 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:42:06am

#114 Sgt. Slaughter

I've know people with Cocaine addictions, and the funny thing was, they had money before they got hooked. They snorted it all away. I feel nothing for their plight. Decisions have consequences.

121 Nancy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:42:46am

It's good that his congressional record is being scrutinized. He has served --I believe 4 terms and has nothing noteworthy to his credit. At best he has opposed legislation rather than done anything proactive.

After all that time, he has no leadership position which means even his peers had no confidence in his leadership ability.

Simplified, he doesn't have much to show for being a leader and there is more evidence to show he is a follower who acts in the negative --to oppose measures which do not support his own ideology but offers little in the way of proposing any alternative.

I have serious problems with his political background and see no evidence that he would lead and much evidence that he would be influenced by others convictions and special interests.

122 elBarto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:42:47am

Sgt.
Regardless of funding the UN has no military forces. Not a dang thing. IT is entirely dependent on member nations to pony up the troops for any operation. If he other nations had the will they would send the troops. So why dont you go hold your breath until that happens.

123 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:42:54am
have you ever known anyone with a heroin addiction

No, but I know this one guy who has a fake troll addiction - does that count?

124 Buckeye Abroad  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:43:11am

#68 PFC Slaughter

I would say that at least 50 percent of the money (our tax money) goes to line the pockets of the military industrial complex and it's lobbyists.
Your proof is.....? 50%???

We should have put that money into the economy.

Keynesian economics is a proven loser.

i>...internal economic security more than military strenghth

How does one provide "internal economic security?"

125 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:44:02am

Wild Justice (#116)

LOL! No wonder you're good at what you do.

126 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:46:23am

OT: Hey, evariste, if you're reading this -- I've officially launched Rugby's blog. I still need to design a header graphic, but I'm happy with the albino color scheme.

I'll upload some photos from my camera tonight.

127 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:46:40am

When you see phrases like "..UN underfunded..", "...miltary-industrial complex...", "..universal health care..", "...Bushie..."


....It's time for an American Symphony!

128 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:47:09am

#114 Sgt Slaughter

It is not that easy to quit. It takes a lot of money, which most do not have.

We're talking about heroin. We all know what it does, how hard it is to stop and what it will do to your prospects. You saw it happen to your own girlfriend.

If poverty leads to drug addiction, why aren't all poor people crack-addicts?

To answer your own question, no I haven't.

129 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:47:12am

Why is there such an irrational hatred toward those who are I guess considered 'underclass' here? I am just voicing my beliefs and I am getting attacked for them. I guess this is to be expected after 4 years of Bushies compassionate conservatism.

130 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:47:42am

Anyone have a subscription to the Chicago Tribune? Just found this on Google News, but I can't read it since I don't have a subscription.

'Liberal' tag resurrected to pin on John Kerry

131 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:48:00am

#118 gymnast

What is FI?

#119 Sgt. Slaughter

Boo freakin hoo. My private highschool got airconditioning my sophmore year. I'm talking South Texas heat too, not this New England pleasant stuff. This was in the early 90's, the school has been around since 1852. By every standard, we had piss poor facilities, equipment and underpayed teachers. Yet, we all managed to survive and thrive. Most of us went on to bigger and much better things, because we wanted to. Yeeeaarrgghhh, I can see that I am wasting my time.

132 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:48:13am

Why thank you, zulubaby!

133 amir  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:49:04am
He and Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) traveled to Managua to try to work their own peace deal with strongman Daniel Ortega and thus undercut U.S. policy.

Sounds like he's in the same league as Yossi Beilin.

134 drdrake  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:49:51am
Why is there such an irrational hatred toward those who are I guess considered 'underclass' here?


Because the topic under discussion is John 'F@@kin' Kerry fool.

135 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:50:36am
I am just voicing my beliefs and I am getting attacked for them. I guess this is to be expected after 4 years of Bushies compassionate conservatism.

You want some cheese with that whine?

136 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:51:07am
Why is there such an irrational hatred toward those who are I guess considered 'underclass' here?

Hatred? No, dissappointment. Irrational? No, justified.

I am just voicing my beliefs and I am getting attacked for them.

You made an ass out of yourself, and are continuing to do so. We've all done it, but most of us realise we're doing it.

137 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:52:16am

Here's the link to the Washington Post article via Google News:

Kerry's 19 Years in Senate Invite Scrutiny

138 sharona  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:52:19am

OT: It appears as if there has been another "honor killing" in Britain, as the body of a young woman was found three weeks ago in Kent was identified yesterday:

Shafilea's parents deny role in her murder

Shortly before her disappearance last September, Shafilea drunk bleach in protest at being taken to Pakistan by her parents to be introduced to a suitor. The chemical left her with bad internal injuries and needing frequent medication.

Poor girl. Alas, Sen. Kerry would likely call this murder a case of Shafilea "failing to establish in a climate of obedience" with her put-upon parents.

139 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:52:53am

Prithee forgive my ignorance of all things HTML, but how would I go about making the strikethrough effect?

140 Ed Moran abu 17 w/ fog, no tornadoes in HOU  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:52:59am

Re "Military Industrial Complex vs. Socialism.

MIC money, a spointed out, pays soldiers, engineers, factory workers, who then spend more money, primarily in the "above ground" economy, where taxes are collected at every step.


Not every state is Lousiana nor is every city Chicago, but a lot of money disappears from public coffers, and a lot of money doled out to welfare queens probably goes into the underground economy.

BTW, we've had "Great Society" welfare programs since the early-mid 1960s. Are the inner cities any better off? Are the precentages of minority children growing up in stable two parent families higher or lower?


Just something to ponder, Sgt. Socialism.

141 Moses Cleavelane  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:53:22am

The French. They will stop at nothing to bring us down.

They're still mad at EuroDisney

142 Sgt. Slaughter  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:53:31am

Just as I expected. My girlfriend tried to be civil here and she attacked as well. Where is your humility, your compassion for others. I will let my girlfriend, Evolutions Eve, know that she was right. That you all are a bunch of meanies.

143 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:53:45am

I teach middle school, too. Never shot up. Not yet, anyway.

144 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:53:57am

I guess Fake Trolls are like military drills... they keep us well-trained and sharp for facing the real thing.

145 axiom aka Malik al-Mulook  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:54:00am

It's early to be hitting Kerry's Senate record. He's not even won the nomination and Kerry's record is on the grill. Methinks the media doesn't want a stiff vs stiff redux and will try and get Edwards to the Democratic nomination.

146 Buckeye Abroad  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:54:25am

#79 PVT Slaughter

Money that can be used to pay off our debts to the UN so they have the funds to do what it was designed to do. Why do we have troops going to Haiti-because the UN is underfunded and therefore cannot do it's duty.

We are withholding payments to the UN for a reason, not for lack of funding.

We sent 50 marines to help secure the US embassy. Has the UN stated it would send blue helmets to Haiti back lacks the funding??

Get off the PC before your parents come home.

147 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:54:31am

#138 sharona

Have a look here. There's more information via the link. She wrote poetry about how suffocating her traditional Islamic family was... A real tragedy.

(Did you get my email?)

148 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:55:07am

#142

Uh oh...

149 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:55:42am

Take off the mask...

150 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:55:58am
My girlfriend tried to be civil here and she attacked as well.

I know it's a typo, but... :-)

151 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:56:39am

#141 Moses Cleavelane

you have no idea

Alain Soral, French writer and OBL worshipper (like MANY French) who calls for American civilian deaths in his writings, remembers ...
"I was in my home office writing a pen-named freelance psy-sex piece for a womens' magazine in order to put some food on the table, the phone rang and it was an old friend who I had a falling out with a few years ago, an old friend who was doing the same debilitating work under a pen-name for a different magazine. He screamed into the telephone: "switch on your TV, this is great!".

I turned the TV on and it was so beautful that we put our differences aside. I then called an other friend who I had had a falling out with over some political nonsense. He had gone to Spain. On the backdrop of the same images we experienced the same communion and we buried the hatchet as well...

Guys the world over who share the same feelings with those who are humilated, felt the same sense of euphoria while watching these biblical images of justice and punishment! For me, 9-11 represents the reconciliation, concerning most subjects, with all those that this mediocre life has forced me to hate because of insignificant differences...

Truthfully, it was a beautiful moment of love. That should tell you how much I remember it!"

this is pornography

152 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:57:07am

#129 Sgt. Slaughter

hatred toward those who are I guess considered 'underclass' here? I am just voicing my beliefs and I am getting attacked for them.

Class warfare is a disgusting means of proving a point. As a member of the "underclass", me and my friends would like to say, screw you. Your condescending and pandering attitude towards the less fortunate is not helpful, and annoying to those those who work their asses off to make a better life.

153 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:57:16am

Oops! Wrong article.

Try this indirect link

154 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:57:20am

Sgt. Laughter

Why is there such an irrational hatred toward those who are I guess considered 'underclass' here?

I've written ad campaigns for needle exchange centers. I've met IDUs in some pretty rough neighborhoods and interviewed them. I've heard life stories such as would make your hair stand on end.

I don't hate those people, and I highly doubt there's a single LGFer here who does.

I will tell you something though. Practically all the addicts I met were and are highly intelligent and incredibly articulate.

I didn't hear any grumbling from them about the system, and people keeping them down.

Most of them realize they made some piss poor choices in life. And many -- though certainly not all -- are trying hard to get themselves together.

155 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:57:27am

Why such hatred ???

Which hatred ???

The hatred of Clinton against America when he did not do a thing against Osama ?

From time to time, when you want to talk about hatred, watch again the videos of September Eleven.

That is hatred in action, here you only get serious citizens (ALL Americans and I would like to say all Israelis even if not formally such) who try to think what is better to do to avoid another attack and win the war.

156 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:58:10am

Sorry everyone. Didn't mean for it to go on that long.

Train like you fight, fight like you train.

And andrew, darn your persistent ;-)

157 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:58:44am

#130 LizardAddict (from that article)

Kerry says he refuses to be branded, and he insists that his record is too complex to be susceptible to simplistic tags like `Massachusetts liberal.'
"I laugh at that," Kerry said in Oklahoma City recently. "The American people deserve something more than labels. What they want is leadership, and they're going to look me in the eye, all Americans are, and they'll make a judgment about my character and they will look at my record."

BWAHAHAHAHA! Americans will look Kerry in the eye, look at his record, consider his character, then vote for Dubyah. Four more years, baby!

In a culture often given to ready caricature, however, resisting that label might be more difficult than Kerry thinks, especially because the Bush campaign will have more than $150 million in its coffer before the national political conventions this summer.

Kerry is toast.

158 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:58:57am

RIP Ford-

"my girlfriend, Evolution's Eve..."

FAUX TROLL!

159 drdrake  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 7:59:52am

OT Andrew Sullivan has gone off the deep end over GWB's FMA proposal:

The president launched a war today against the civil rights of gay citizens and their families. And just as importantly, he launched a war to defile the most sacred document in the land.

These folks shouldn't confuse rights and priviledges.

160 Lively  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:00:05am

#150 Colt. lol.

161 Ed Moran abu 17 w/ fog, no tornadoes in HOU  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:00:17am

The Sgt. Slaughter nic fooled me into thinking he was the real thing.

I think fake trolls should get a timeout, a one day suspension from popsting anything.

162 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:00:33am

Sgt. Slaughter / RWC

I'm all worked up now, thanks. I need a cigarette. Yeaargghh!

#139 AddictedLizardoid

< strike >Place text here< / strike >

Remove the spaces that I inserted to make it work. Check in preview to see the effect.

163 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:00:34am

RWC got us again!

164 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:01:01am

SGT Slaughter, yeah right..........Where's scooby doo when you need him!

RIP Ford!!!

Do Tell! How was Mardi Graz in le Quarter? I saw no nekkid picures of you drunk in the gutter anywhere?

165 David Simon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:01:05am

#43 Andrew - It's not surprising at all. I'm sure I would have done the same thing if I were in his shoes. Kerry could have put the whole matter to rest by answering Bush's critics instead of saying "no comment." When you play in mud, you get dirty.

#57 Jolly Roger - If that's the way it went down, then I would say that Kerry definitely deserves his medals.

166 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:01:47am

ploome (#151)

Words fail me. That's obscene.

167 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:02:00am

#157 mickthemick

Thanks--all I could read from google was the first line, but that was good enough to share.

And I agree on the whole "leadership" thing. The only things that Kerry has shown leadership in is how to chase rich women and how to strangle your country's safety.

168 Dave the Decisive  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:02:03am

It's been said that the reason kerry has held different positions on so many subjects is that he does what ever is easy to do at the time. One example. Vote to authorize war in Iraq when most of the Senate agreed on this. Then later say it's all wrong and we shouldn't have done it. Another, volunteer to serve in the armed forces (which I'm not going to belittle him on at all), but then come back to eastern Massachusetts and protest against our armed forces.

A leader has to make decisions no matter how hard and unpopular it is at the time. See Ronald Reagan/Margaret Thatcher and missles in Europe. A leader cannot stick his/her finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing today.

169 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:02:30am

What have we become that some people get up in arms when someone tries to defend the traditional meaning of marriage, but have no problem letting immigrants be President?

170 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:02:57am

Geepers and reaganite:

According to a quick review on Thomas, Kerry appears to have voted for many of the appropriations bills for the DoD. However, it would take far more time and effort to see specific votes for specific defense systems (which would require looking at committee votes and reports).

That said, Kerry will use the appropriation votes to say he's strong on defense, but looking at his votes on specific systems (as found by Steyn and others), will show that he's far more interested in gutting the DoD than he is in ensuring and insuring that the US will be secure into the future.

171 Victoria (VA girl)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:03:07am
#97 "We should take the money that would have been saved and give them a grant or loan to start them on the right path. "

As a recovering alcoholic/addict (sober 3 years), I assure you that giving an active junkie more money is NOT the answer.

172 Poitiers-Lepanto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:04:08am

Touche'.

173 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:04:11am

Ed Moran,

Did you see my very important weather question in the last thread? directed at you, our mighty lizard weather machine controller.....

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9934 #c0302

174 fireman  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:04:11am

159 drdrake

I read Sullivan's website frequently, and I guess a lot of other's here do too.

Sullivan will just have to choose -- either he can have Bush as President, forego gay marriage for awhile, and have an even bigger enemy (Islamofascism) defeated, or he can endorse Kerry, who, if he becomes President, will allow an Islamofascist victory that will send gays like Sullivan to a horrible death.

Obviously, being straight, I can't feel this the way Sullivan does, but he'd better realize, that gay marriage or not, Bush & Co. are probably all that stands between us and either Sharia Law or nuclear terrorism.

175 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:04:24am

#161 Ed Moran

I think fake trolls should get a timeout, a one day suspension from popsting anything.

Will do. I will take my punishment Feb. 29th.

#164 John Gibbon

Do Tell! How was Mardi Graz in le Quarter? I saw no nekkid picures of you drunk in the gutter anywhere?

That's cause they are on a paysite. You need a password to get in.

176 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:05:33am

Victoria, congrats on sobriety. But RWC was playing a prank and thus you don't need to argue w/ SSlaughter.

177 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:06:08am

From the first WaPo article I linked:

Kerry told the Boston Globe earlier this year some of the proposed cancellations were "ill-advised" and "stupid," blaming his inexperience as a candidate and a campaign that drove him to the left politically.

So, he didn't really have dovish convictions, it's just that his liberal constitutents in Massachusetts forced him to vote in ways that were "ill-advised' and "stupid"?

A Profile in Courage, indeed, JFKerry!

178 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:06:39am

#167 AddictedLizardoid
Lemme' know if you want to read the whole thing. I will copy & paste it into an email, and send it to ya'. ;)

179 ErnieG  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:06:39am
#22 hellcat

That would be entertaining: a debate on weaponry between Kerry and Rumsfield.

It would be even more fun if Mr. Rumsfeld would be allowed to use his karate moves.

180 yeti  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:06:44am

#168

That checks. Kerry is the "path of least resistance" candidate. I look forward to his positions morphing more to the mainstream after he wraps up the Dem nomination. The man will say anything to appeal to as many people as possible.

181 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:07:00am

Damn, and I was all ready to go toe-to-toe with this clown!

*stares wistfully at horizon fondly recalling the days we took VFI apart*

182 gymnast  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:08:46am

#131, RIP Ford. FI=F'ing Idiot.

183 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:09:37am

#178 mickthemick

Thanks for the offer...and I think I'll take you up on it.

184 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:09:40am

No Wild Justice HWSNBN was the real "Whack-a-Troll".

Why is it OK to bash Bush's service in the ANG but we can't look at Kerry's Purple Hearts?

185 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:10:05am

#151 ploome

That should piss people off more than any fake trolling. What a piece of sh*t bastard that guy is. And we are the 'ugly Americans.' Last I recall I didn't rejoice at civlian death. Fuque la French.

186 AddictedLizardoid  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:10:49am

Oops...maybe email will work better if I put it in the right spot.

187 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:14:12am

Fireman and Dr. Drake,

I mentioned Sullivan's "Scanners" moment on the previous thread. In my own stupid opinion, what's going on with gay marriage is like a cross between street theater and a drag show. It's much more about shocking the normals than civil rights, because I defy anyone to name for me a civil right a gay couple is denied on account of not being married.

188 Geepers  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:14:13am

Dar ul Harb (#137),

Thanks for the link. Now I can answer Colt's question.

Americans for Democratic Action, a liberal group, rated Kerry more liberal than Kennedy during the time they served together in the Senate, although by only 1 percentage point.

Oh yeah, that's our strong on defense war "hero."

189 sharona  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:14:49am

Colt:

I did get your e-mail. I'll respond soon - sorry!

& thanks for the link with more info - this story is so heartbreaking, and to see the grandstanding of her parents and their solicitor during the police's news conference is to witness PR spin at its' most intimate and horrifying.

It does seem, however, that Britain realizes this is going on and are doing their best to keep th epublic informed so that they will act to help young women like Shalifea if they are in a position to do so.

190 Victoria (VA girl)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:15:31am
Victoria, congrats on sobriety. But RWC was playing a prank and thus you don't need to argue w/ SSlaughter.

(hides sheepishly...realizing she's not always the sharpest tool in the shed)...ahh...thanks!

191 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:16:21am

#164 John Gibbon

I left my liver in New Orleans.
Great trip, a rather long drive home though (10 hours). We splurged and bought a balcony on Bourbon street Saturday night. That is the way to see the circus for Mardi Gras. I'm broke and my body is pretty pissed off at me right now, but worth it. What people will do for plastice beads is still mind boggling, and what people will put up with for a party is staggering. All in all, a 9 out of 10. Thanks for asking.

I just posted 4 "G" rated photos here.

192 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:17:04am

#184   Sean

Actually I found the HWSNBN days more than mildly disturbing, being as they were a glimpse into a disturbed mind.

Nothing I'd want to repeat any time soon.

193 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:19:55am

#182 gymnast

Thanks, I should have gotten that. I hear it from people all the time. :p

194 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:20:19am

Victoria (VA girl) (#190)

Everyone got sucked in, not just you, so nothing to be sheepish about. RWC, you're a bad, bad boy!

195 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:20:20am

Good point, Wild Justice.

196 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:21:52am

Wild Justice (#192)

I'm with you on that one. Thank G-d we don't have to witness that anymore.

197 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:23:09am

#190 Victoria (VA girl)

(hides sheepishly...realizing she's not always the sharpest tool in the shed)...ahh...thanks!

I made an ass out of myself, so don't feel too bad.

198 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:23:18am

#27 Colt

Just my way of telling you Testosterone Twins apart

That way I don't confuse you with the one who voted for Nader :-0

199 axiom aka Malik al-Mulook  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:24:38am

#159 drdrake

Sullivan suffers from the same affliction of misunderstanding of marriage. He demands it be treated as a civil right yet marriage has never been declared a civil right. If it were so important to the point where the founders deemed it necessary to declare as explicit then Sullivan and other gay marriage advocates would have a point. However, marriage is not a civil right, nor is it proclaimed to be by people trying to protect marriage between a man and a woman.

Sullivan is going to stay home on election day. I'm not ready to remake the traditional family, but I'm also not willing to demand compliance when a minority wants to make different choices.

This present debate is not about Civil Rights. It's about the "M" word. Homosexuals want it; no ifs, ands or buts. If it was a rights issue that civil unions. already a path that even heterosexual couples choose, guarantees equal protection under the law.

Sullivan often refers to the "South Park Republicans". He should watch the South Park episode with Big Gay Al and the Boy Scouts. The closing to that episode would summarize my point of view on Gay Marriage. If people don't want you to be a part of their "group", why try and break in when you can get everything you want by other means?

200 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:24:49am

#191 RIP Ford,

If you think Mardi Gras was a party this weekend, scroll back to Friday at LGF and check out the 'Rumsfeld Fighting Technique' thread.

Evariste, RWC and a few others whooped it up royally!

As I stated before, back in the 70s when I was a teen, Mardi Gras actually had a family feel about it. None of this show me for beads stuff started until later in the 80s and 90s.

I actually have a fine collection of doubloons of all the Krewes,....somewhere?

201 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:25:23am

#186 Addicted Lizardoid
Check your email(s). I just sent you that Trib article.

202 Austin from Boston  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:27:04am

NOW NOW....I have read much of Sgt slaughters posts....and he of course is right...

It is completely unfair!!! that our military is more advanced then that of our enemies...

Dont you realize when we fight and attempt to minimize civilian and our own casulaties we are fighting in a horrible inefficient manner...

We should be using old low tech hardware so that the enemy has a better chance of killing more of our soldiers.....

This low tech hardware will also decrease accuracy and efficiency...but we can make up for that with good ole carpet bombing from those state of the art B-52's!!

Hey its not our fault that in order to win conflicts we had to kill 500,000 to a few million extra people.....

Joe and susie got their cradle to grave health care and have no incentive to get jobs.....

But I am sure the Grench will come to our defense if we need it....

203 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:27:52am

#190 Victoria (in VA)

Nothing to be ashamed of Victoria. I have lots and lots of practice. ;-)

ps- congrats on your sobriety

#195 Sean

Hope you don't mind, bu check your email.

#196 zulubaby

I see you played it safe. :-) (I know, I know. Why waste the effort to respond. At least someone here remembers the LGF prayer folks - looking around the room


** sigh ** will they ever learn.

204 iagofest a.k.a. abu fly killa  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:28:42am

Sgt. Slaughter,

You're making the perfect case for the major difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives believe in personal responsibility and freedom , but not freedom without consequences. Liberals want freedom without consequences and a nanny government that will negate the consequences of those that make poor choices. Your girlfriend made a poor choice in choosing to do heroin and suffered the consequences. Why should the taxpayers have to pay for her screw-up? Luckily, she made the right choice in deciding to quit and I comend her for that.

I'm in favor of government programs that help those that are temporarily down on their luck or severely disabled through no fault of their own. But it should not be a free ride.

Regarding government-funded art, for most of history rich patrons sponsored artists that they believed were talented. No government money was needed. There are still plenty of rich art-loving folks that donate money to all sorts of foundations. Talented artists will get the funding they need. Untalented artists, unfortunately, eat up our tax dollars from the NEA. Here's a news flash: not all "art" is worthy of patronage, otherwise anyone could be an artist regardless of their talent. NEA is a waste in my opinion.

205 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:29:01am

I have no regrets. It was fun.

206 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:29:30am

#194 Zulubaby,
RWC,

How come I'm keenly aware of when RWC goes into lurk mode. I guess I can proudly say that I've never been taken.

I have been guilty though of falsely accusing him, so in that respect I guess I'm as fallible as the others.

207 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:29:54am

Back to the topic at hand, which is Kerry's fitness for the Presidency:

Rod Paige has been getting slammed for comments he made about a teachers' union - calling them terrorists.

Well, guess who said something about terrorists, and he was referring to his Senate counterparts from across the aisle.

John F. Kerry

As Democrats express outrage over comments made by Education Secretary Rod Paige [he called the the nation's largest teachers union 'a terrorist organization'] a DRUDGE REPORT flashback can reveal Democrat presidential frontrunner John Kerry Has Called Republicans 'legislative terrorists'... MORE... In Jan. 1996, commenting on the federal government shutdown, Kerry called the House Republicans 'legislative terrorists,' who used federal workers as pawns and disrespected them. Asked about his terrorist comment, Kerry explained, 'Terrorists hold hostages, and the Republicans are holding the government hostage'...

Via Drudge.

208 Dean Douthatd  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:30:44am

#65 Sgt. Slaughter:

Oh c'mon. Do you really think that it takes billions upon billions for R&D. I would say that at least 50 percent of the money (our tax money) goes to line the pockets of the military industrial complex and it's lobbyists.

I assume you have some self-directed 401K, IRA, etc. If so, how many defense contractor shares do you own?

209 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:31:07am

RWC, I did check and you usually leave a little clue but not this time. Still, I had my suspicions ;-)

210 abu-Hoo-Hoo  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:31:31am

sgt wassisface

How about more funding for the programs that help them get out of the mess that they are in. We need to break the cycle.

gee where have i heard that?

bwahahahahahahaha

211 iagofest a.k.a. abu fly killa  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:31:42am

Curse you, RWC!!!!! I just expended some vital neuronal energy for that last post and all for nothing!!!!

I guess from now on, I should just GAZE.

212 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:32:21am

#203 RWC

The nic / troll comments made me suspicious. ;-)

213 Austin from Boston  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:32:50am

lol RWC

I was trying to work with you and have some more fun......


but then I realized I didnt chg my nick...so I modded my post to mock...

Stupid infernal work getting in the way of posting and reading....!!!

214 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:33:10am

{sigh} This is why I think faux trolling should be forbidden.

215 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:34:13am

#200 John Gibbon

I read that thread yesterday, it was a good laugh. I'm sorry I missed it.

216 Dirk Diggler  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:34:26am
Sullivan often refers to the "South Park Republicans". He should watch the South Park episode with Big Gay Al and the Boy Scouts. The closing to that episode would summarize my point of view on Gay Marriage. If people don't want you to be a part of their "group", why try and break in when you can get everything you want by other means?

Andrew Sullivan's sermons about the need for gay marriage have become so boring and monotonously repetitive that I seldom go to his site anymore. Personally I believe that gay marriage is a trivial issue that is best dealt with at the state level. I personally don't support it, but I think that a constitutional amendment to define what constitutes a marriage is overkill. Let different states define marriage according to their values. Like that concept? It's a little something called federalism.

217 David Simon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:36:29am

#181 Wild Justice - Okay, I'll admit it; I liked it too.

The problem with VFI was that in her never-ending quest to prove how much smarter she was than everybody else, she would too often try to derail threads with a bunch of esoteric drivel that nobody gave a fuck about.

Her swan song (the pink tank thread) is a classic though. She tried to lecture everyone about the origins of Halloween and ended up getting her ass handed to her by Ann Northcutt Gray.

218 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:38:12am

from our friends, in the U.K.

when you have a prime minister who seems to get his orders from America, we need to get the right person elected into the White House.
219 Solomon X  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:39:40am

Doesn't that rant from Merde in France (via ploome's #151) remind you of Dylan Klebold's adolecent fantasies about killing off all those "popular" kids who made him feel so "humiliated", er, reminded him of what a loser he was? 9/11 was the Colombine of the humiliated losers of the world. Yeesh.

221 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:40:40am

President Calls for Constitutional Amendment Protecting Marriage
Remarks by the President

In recent months, however, some activist judges and local officials have made an aggressive attempt to redefine marriage. In Massachusetts, four judges on the highest court have indicated they will order the issuance of marriage licenses to applicants of the same gender in May of this year. In San Francisco, city officials have issued thousands of marriage licenses to people of the same gender, contrary to the California family code. That code, which clearly defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman, was approved overwhelmingly by the voters of California. A county in New Mexico has also issued marriage licenses to applicants of the same gender. And unless action is taken, we can expect more arbitrary court decisions, more litigation, more defiance of the law by local officials, all of which adds to uncertainty.

Hear, hear.

222 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:40:42am

I enjoyed the faux-trolling... and I think it keeps us sharp for the real thing. However, there are differences between RWC and a Real Troll.

RWC - Maintains dialog
Real Troll - Tends to rant and run

RWC - Uses punctuation and complete sentences
Real Troll - tends to use no caps and no punctuation even for first person singular pronouns

RWC - Answers arguments
Real Troll - Responds to arguments with 1.) ad hominem attacks and epithets 2.) denying he said what he said or 3.)whines about persecution

RWC - Arguments are cohesive if ill-supported
Real Troll - Thoughts arrive like butterflies/He don't know/So he chases them away

223 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:41:55am

John Gibbon (#206)

I have been guilty though of falsely accusing him, so in that respect I guess I'm as fallible as the others.

LOL, I vaguely remember that. What happened again?

224 iagofest a.k.a. abu fly killa  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:42:12am

Dirk,

I agree with you. I'd prefer to have the citizens of each state decide on gay marriage, rather than have it forced on the populace by activist judges. Unfortunately, I believe the gay rights folks will try to force gay marriage on every state in the nation through the "full faith and credit" clause. I have also stopped going to Sullivan's blog because it's become, as Lileks said earlier, a one trick pony.

I wonder if Kerry will support a marriage amendment. I bet he licks his finger and sees what way the wind is blowing as usual.

225 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:43:02am

I think Model4 definitively stated why faux trolling should be a no-no.

226 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:43:57am

That's right V the K, help to hone his skills! LOL.

227 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:45:32am

#220 Ed Moran abu 17 w/ fog, no tornadoes in HOU 2/24/2004 10:40AM PST

Thanks ED for the quick forcast, would almost love to see the Hollywood types drenched...

...one problem though, when I clicked on the link for the Oscar forcast it gave me an error statement:

"error: bad State: 999 "

What does it mean?...I know CA is a 'Bad State' and shouldn't the 999 be instead 666?!

HeHe, ed's more funny than he knows :)

228 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:45:34am

#216 Dirk Diggler

I've also slowed my viewing of Sullivan's site since he cranked up the rhetoric.

The issue that I have with the State issue is that we will see more and more San Francisco's and or activist judges legislating from the bench.

The proper process is really to take the issue to the people, and since it will ultimately become a Federal issue (the first time a married gay couple files their tax return as married, filing jointly) it is something that needs to be addressed at the Federal level.

The process as defined by the Constitution is for the people to speak on this - and to define it across all of the States equally (which is also required) - an amendment is the best way to go. It's not an easy pass. 2/3rds of the States have to ratify it, as well as 2/3rds of the House and Senate. For an amendment to pass, it really has to have the support of the super-majority at least in Congress, and among the States as a whole.

Having each State define their own definition - will result in greater confusion and issues than when abortion was left to States to determine. There will be cases made that a marriage in say, Mass., which permits gay marriage, has to be recognized in say, Calif. which today has a state law against gay marriage if a married gay couple moves from Mass to CA and finds that they don't have the same legal recognition in their new home.

A Federal solution is required. It is one that needs to be decided by the People in votes - not by activist judges.

229 David Simon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:45:43am

#222 V the K - Anatomy of a Troll. LOL!

230 JeffF  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:47:40am

223 zulubaby

I think that was the Baby bin Laden (or whatever) troll. I remember people guessing it was RWC, but he appeared & denied it. Did that one ever get solved?

231 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:48:02am

Well, as least Kerry has done one good thing:

[Link: www.amin.org...]

232 fireman  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:48:11am

Again OT, but important:

A piece about left-wing anti-semitism by Michael Totten, who I understand, is considered one of the most coherent and effective liberal bloggers:

[Link: www.michaeltotten.com...]

233 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:51:32am

#224 iagofest

Kerry, I believe is already on record for supporting gay marriage. (Of course, he is also probably on record for opposing it as well.)

I say this for several reasons - one, he was one of 14 Senators who voted against the Defense of Marriage Act. He has also come out several times in support of the Mass. Supreme Court creative rulings. Finally, Teddy is very very supportive of it, and we know that not only will JFKerry follow Teddy, he has a higher liberal voting ranking than the Senile Senator from Mass.

234 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:51:54am

#230 JeffF

Yes. Another reason that I fail to see the difference between "faux" and "real" trolling.

235 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:51:58am

#223 Zulubaby,

I've done it a couple of times, where a real troll or perhaps even a faux Troll (not RWC) comes on board and I try to out him/her by immediately calling the troll RWC.

I think the last time was two weeks ago, while I was on a business trip. It really wasn't him

...I don't mind him doing it really, It has provided some real comical moments. The Pres. State of the Union thread was hilarious where RWC was 'not a sheep'

#222 V the K, you are all over it...I'm very alert to all that...

236 epg  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:53:11am

His voting record is scary enough, but do you want this Teresa Kerry - Bag Lady... for first lady???

I shudder to think about the pillow talk of these two. What they have done in the past PALES with the unimaginable damage they can do to our country. If nothing else, print this out for distribution to your friends (and enemies) who care about our country.

237 Andrew Coulson  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:53:40am

This is off-topic as well, but I thought y'all might be interested.

I'm scheduled be on the radio this afternoon/evening talking about U.S. policy toward Islamist education in foreign countries. I'll argue that current policies aren't likely to work, and aren't compatible with American ideals. Relevant links and details available at TheGantelope.

Thanks,
Andrew

238 Jolly Roger  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:55:00am

# 74 gymnast

#57, Jolly Roger. Kerry's "hearts" were comparable to high school band medals for split lips and blisters. He put himself in for his awards. If he wants to use them as "bono fides" I would like to see the paperwork.

I repeat, follow the links up in #14. Or better yet, just
click here.

The grey boxed text reproduces an email making the rounds. I believed it at first. The explanation below that contains the ACTUAL AWARD CITATIONS. Read for yourself.

Now, I will grant that 1) Kerry almost certainly put in the "3 PH" transfer request to get out of there ASAP, BUT 2) The actual wounds involved probably merited the Purple Heart. The last one involved his boat hitting a mine, and he was in the hospital for several days. The first two were shrapnel to the arm and shrapnel/gunshot to the leg. Do you really want to describe hitting a mine in a fiberglass boat as "a marching band split lip"?

I'd actually say it's commendable that he didn't spend time in the med tent and instead went back out to fight.

One more point...if he was the Skipper of that boat, it's entirely likely that ALL awards for his crew would start with him, and therefore the fact that he put in for them himself would only be bureaucracy in action.

So, I'm not going to knock him for what he did in Vietnam. I'm going to knock him for absolutely everything he's done SINCE THEN.

239 Andy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:55:16am

It burns my ass when we don't present a united front (i.e. Kerry and Harkin going to Nicaragua against policy). Imagine what we would be capable of if we didn't have dissenters going to our enemies? WWII comes to mind. We would not be targeted by any Islamozoid groups because we would not be seen as weak-willed. Just my $0.02.

240 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:55:49am

Okay, so we have the troll thing all figured out.

Am I the only one who's very worried that Bush isn't going to win? My feeling is that so many people hate him that they will vote for whoever runs against him, even if they know nothing about the other candidate, even if he is the worst candidate in the history of the US.

241 levi from queens  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:56:14am

I was just wtching Fox cable news in the only legal place to have a lunch-time cigar in Manhattan--the DLC guy said Kerry's against gay marriage. Kerry believes we're in a war with terrorism; Kerry was in favor of the war with Iraq. Let's turn to the items that divide Bush and Kerry.

242 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:58:15am

I agree with Thom and Model4.

It's been fun, but let's call it a day.

243 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:58:20am

Sorry to link to the enemy, but I just had to share this alleged piece of poetry by the alleged poet I linked to in #231. Move over Ezra Pound:

[Link: www.aljazeerah.info...]

244 elBarto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 8:59:33am

zulubaby That concerns me as well. We the lizardoid minions should do our parts in our comunities to make sure that people know the truth about JFkerry.

245 andthenblammo!  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:03:07am

And for the lazy..........Instatroll!

Charles, I promise that if I ever use this thing again, I'll just link to it, so as not to be a bandwidth hog.

Insta-Troll!

Tired of coming across websites with forums full of people having the audacity to hold beliefs different than the correct ones, i.e., yours?

Want to give them a piece of your mind, but know you should conserve that ever-shrinking vital resource?

Upset that “bushitler lied! And peepul died!!!” isn’t greeted with the same cheers received at [Link: www.youngcommieaholes.com?...]

Don’t want to have to learn to speak and write English just to escape mockery talking to some people in a chat room?

Well, here’s help! Just pick and choose from the alternatives below, and be on your way to online hegemony! You know you want to!

(pick easy-to-remember screen name)

I just happened to come across this site:
-by typing the URL into the search bar.
-through dark forces most people are blissfully unaware of.
-by searching for something other than “lesbian dwarf donkey sex”, I swear!
-how would I know, I can’t successfully make toast, much less
have a clue about this Internet thingy.

You people are:
-disgusting lame repuglican excuses for human beings.
-obviously something other than a socially deprived college freshman with bad personal hygiene hiding in his room from that
sixth-grader who vowed to kick his ass, like me.
-not following the herd of independent thinkers.
-listening to me! Oh, god, finally, someone’s listening to me!

Your views on the:
-2000 “elections”
-resident bushitler.
-middle east situation and Zionist yadda yadda ya.
-thingy you’re talking about, I can’t figure out those “link” things
you’re always talking about!

convince me that:
-I’m right! I’M RIGHT! You’re wrong! Neener neener neener!
-people like you should be locked up and fed through tubes.
-Nazis like you are what’s wrong with this country, whatever country we’re in, I don’t pay much attention.
-Teena’s going to call me any day now, when she realizes what’s
she’s missing out on.

People who think the kind of inhumane thoughts that you do, and what’s worse, actually speak them out loud, should be:
-shot.
-tortured, then shot.
-shot, then tortured.
-sent to Detroit.
-all of the above.

Your sheer inhumanity to (insert your favorite oppressed people here.
Remember, no matter how many get killed, Jews do not count as oppressed people. That’s just the way it is.) makes me:
-saddened, sickened, sorrowful.
-enraged, envenomed, Enron-ed.
-bewitched, bothered, bewildered.
-twitch even more than usual.

How would you like to have to choose between:
-taking up arms against the forces of capitalist repression.
-strapping on explosives in a futile gesture of resistance.
-wearing one of those cool skimask things and posing for dweeb
wire-service photographers holding a bitchin’ rifle.
-getting a job.

And:
-not having Italian sausage on your pizza because of some religious deal? Dude, that’s lame.
-Polysci 456 and Art 265? That art instructor has it in for me.
-boxers or briefs?
-getting a job?.

Then you’d
-kill a lot of people and then claim to be misunderstood.
-threaten the world with death and moan about being oppressed
when the world comes and kicks your ass.
-better not come around here and try to mess with me, I’ve
watched just about every kung-fu movie ever made!
-give the Man what he deserves for being the Man, instead of me.

You think I’ll go away just because you aren’t listening to me, but:
-I actually do not have anything, that’s anything, better to do but
sit here and swap insults online. Really, I can’t even just go to bed
since the mattress spontaneously combusted. Everybody laughs at
me. I’m so lonely.
-You WILL acknowledge my superior intellect! I am a superior being! I know the words to both of my favorite movies, and can recite them all the way through!
-It’s so brave of me to insult people who don’t even know my real
name, much less who are in the same room with me, and could kick my ass without cracking a light sweat.
-You might enjoy yourselves without me spraying blather all over your conversation, and I hate the idea of you enjoying yourself. You’ll pay. You’ll all pay.

You are obviously swallowing all that propaganda from right wing rags like:
-the Utne Reader.
-Worker’s World Daily.
-Color along with Uncle Stalin!
-The Village Voice.

Check out the real facts I found here at:
-www.therealtruthyoubetnolieitstrue.com
-A really cool website with Che Guevera’s picture in red in the background. It’s so cool. I want to swipe it for my website, but I don’t have a website. And I lost the URL. I’m such a loser.
-www.bushitleramerikkkaihateashkkkrofthellokitty.c om
-some poster I stole, ninja-like, from the student union post board
when nobody was looking; I wanted to go see this Rael dude on the poster but my roommate burned all my clothes because of the smell. I mean, dude! Way to make the capitalist pig soap companies happy, dude!

And you will finally agree:
-I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about. About anything. Not even the time of day.
-It’s time to go over to dieselsweeties.com and catch up on
previous comics; maybe when you get back here this tool will be gone.
-It’s cocktail time! Maybe when you get back here this tool will be gone.
-Hell with this, a good movie like Mr. Holland’s Opus might be on!

Wasn’t that easy? Just add a few snippets about stolen elections and intergalactic pumice from those dark voids inside your mind, and you will beat all comers! You will be DA MAN! Guaranteed!

Warning: do not try these conversation techniques when among real people; this may result in, you guessed it, you getting your ass seriously kicked. Even by your mother. My guess, especially by your mother. You have been warned.

246 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:03:34am
Am I the only one who's very worried that Bush isn't going to win?

I think Bush will win. I'm not particularly worried if he doesn't. I think the Republicans in Congress will hold back the worst of Kerry's liberal impulses (hey, if Gore had been elected, we probably wouldn't have CFR or the prescription drug giveaway.) And if NYC, SFO, and DC are nuked by Al Qaeda, there'll be a lot fewer liberals/socialists voting in 08.

My feeling is that so many people hate him that they will vote for whoever runs against him, even if they know nothing about the other candidate, even if he is the worst candidate in the history of the US.

But Howard Dean already dropped out.

247 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:04:00am

OT - A very good commentary by Ralph Peters in today's NY Post - The Best We've Got

Iraq remains a brutally dangerous place, a country that will struggle for years with its disastrous past. Progress will be imperfect. Success will be inconsistent. Disappointments will intoxicate the media. But, when all is said and done, Iraq is now the only major country in the Middle East with hope for a better future.

Our soldiers created that hope.

Far from the crude babykiller of campus legend, the American soldier has proved that he is as humane as he is competent, as creative as he is valorous, and as optimistic as the best traditions of his - or her - country. Our troops have tracked down war criminals, turned the tables on ambushers, faced countless roadside bombs - and built schools, created jobs, picked up garbage and set an example that even those Iraqis anxious for us to leave will not forget.

The American soldier has an immeasurably greater impact than American bombs.

For the soldiers themselves - including our superb Marines - conducting this massive "relief in place" in Iraq, the on-the-ground reality will often be frustrating. Especially to the soldier heading home, the complexities of such a huge transfer of forces will have a hurry-up-and-wait side that will draw out the enlisted man's blackest reserves of humor.

But the new troops will go in, the veterans will come home, intelligence and operational techniques will be handed off, the "newbies" will master the local environment and this great campaign for freedom will continue to march.

Iraq is working. Attacks on our troops and American casualties are down. No Iraqis argue about whether the old regime should return - only about the rules for future statehood. A broken country is recovering from a generation of shock and misery. Their hopes may take a number of different directions, but the peoples of Iraq have hope.

I only wish that those Americans so anxious to use our soldiers as political pawns in election campaigns actually knew our troops. Not as an abstract concept, but as people.

The American soldier is a historical anomaly - not a grasping conqueror, but a man or woman of courage and good heart who wishes only to do what must be done, and then go home. Our troops are inspiring in ways that no campaign speech or campus rally will ever rival. They live the virtues - courage, patriotism, love of freedom, self-sacrifice, honor - of which their critics are embarrassed to speak.

These are the same American troops that Kerry called war criminals, baby killers, etc. in 1971. These are the same troops that he has worked and voted to not support, arm, and equip.

These are the oppressed people of a nation that didn't know freedom that Kerry voted against $87B of aid and assistance. These are the same people freed by American military action that Kerry said he authorized in error since he was "lied" to by the President. These are the same people who would still be filling mass graves and living without hope if Saddam was still in power.

Clinton never had the respect of the American military because of his actions avoiding service in Vietnam. Kerry will not have the respect of the American military because of his actions when he returned from Vietnam, and his history of actions against the military once he gained his seat in the Senate. By this, he is disqualified to ever be Commander in Chief.

248 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:04:15am

OT: Those nasty Israelis are at it again--and Reuters is there to report it first:

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

249 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:07:14am

#248 OHMYGOD! What happened to the olive trees?

(smirking)

250 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:07:54am

Daniel Pipes sez: Defund Middle East Studies

Sounds good to me.

Here's a prime example, one which involves me personally, of how the radical Left and the Islamists, those new best friends, readily deceive.

It has to do with a proposed piece of U.S. legislation passed by the House, the "International Studies in Higher Education Act of 2003" (known familiarly as H.R. 3077), and waiting action by the Senate. H.R. 3077 calls for the creation of an advisory board to review the way in which roughly US$100 million in taxpayer money is spent annually on area studies (including Middle East studies) at the university level.

This board is needed for two reasons: Middle East studies are a failed field and the academics who consume these funds also happen to allocate them – a classic case of unaccountability. The purpose of this subsidy, which Congress increased by 26 percent after 9/11, is to help the U.S. government with exotic language and cultural skills. Yet many universities reject this role, dismissing it as training "spies."

Ooh - Judgment at Nuremberg is on TCM. Helluva movie.

251 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:07:55am

#240 & #244 zulubaby & ElBarto
Don't give up hope. Bush seems more unpopular than he really is because the media all hate him, and because Bush-Bashers have bigger mouths than most Bush supporters. Remember, Bush won in 2000 without 9/11 or the WoT, and the Dems had the momentum of a strong economy.

252 David Simon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:08:23am

#240 Zulubaby - I'm a little worried, but let's keep in mind that all the attention has been focused on the Democrats the last couple of months. If the poll numbers don't change once the Bush reelection campaign heats up, then I'm really going to worry.

253 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:09:25am

#240 Zulubaby
#244 el barto

I for one hope that every voter takes his vote seriously. That they rationally list their issues and see where the candidates stand. They may not meet all their criteria for selection, but you've got to rank national security high right now. And you MUST look at their recent actions or senatorial voting records.

Kerry scares the he** out of me! I cannot imagine where he would take us! He would be all about appeasement and isolationism!

I'm afraid that many who are weak of mind, will fall for scare tactics that the DNC and workers' unions use

254 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:10:32am

#151 ploome: There's nothing quite like a French "intellectual", is there? At least this one is weirdly honest:

For me, 9-11 represents the reconciliation, concerning most subjects, with all those that this mediocre life has forced me to hate

Translation; 9-11 helped me to avoid any introspection about my mediocre life, by fanning my hatred of America. Yep.

#216 Dirk Diggler:

Personally I believe that gay marriage is a trivial issue that is best dealt with at the state level. I personally don't support it, but I think that a constitutional amendment to define what constitutes a marriage is overkill. Let different states define marriage according to their values. Like that concept? It's a little something called federalism.

I agree with you on the federalism issue, which is why I'm actually pretty disappointed with Bush on this. We really need to tinker with the Constitution over this sort of thing? I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to the idea that gays should be able to enjoy the legal benefits of marriage (and, V the K, while I wouldn't call them "civil rights", necessarily, they certainly are tangible legal rights, mostly having to do with property). But I can't make an argument with a straight face that the Equal Protection Clause dictates this outcome. I agree: leave it to the states. I wish Bush would focus on his strong points for this election--WoT, etc.--rather than muddying things by pandering to the social conservative base who are going to vote for him anyway.

255 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:10:55am

#246 V the K:

And if NYC, SFO, and DC are nuked by Al Qaeda, there'll be a lot fewer liberals/socialists voting in 08.

Speaking as a New Yorker who spends his time on the subway doing the profiling our Fearless Leader characterizes as racist, but which at least implies the slightest recognition of reality - other words, I'm on the front lines here too - :

Fuck you very much. That was astoundingly inappropriate.

256 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:11:21am

scaramouche (#248)

Funny, they don't mention the Israeli policemen that were hurt by the Palestinians throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at them. I don't know who infuriates me more, the whining Palestinians or the whining media.

257 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:11:44am

#240 Zulubaby,

I think the doubt might come from the constant pressure of the "mainstream media" - and in particular the press that we are subject to here in SoCal.

In the LA Times today, crowing about Kerry's huge 30 point lead over Edwards for Super Tuesday, it was interesting in the bowels of the poll to see that only @30% of his supporters are voting for him because of his policies. 65% are voting for him because he is the best of the "rest" to be the ABB candidate.

I don't subscribe to the 50-50 model that is being tossed about, and I think that while vocal, the ABB crowd is too small to really elect Kerry. I am confident that the majority of the people understand that we are at war, and want to elect the best person to help us win the war. That is not Kerry. or Edwards. or Nader.

Stay strong.

258 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:13:16am

#240 zulubaby

Am I the only one who's very worried that Bush isn't going to win?

Nope. I'm VERY worried. I read today (in Natl Review, I think) that Cheney is next in the Dems' crosshairs. To hear the Dems tell it, Cheney's Viet Nam era deferments make W look like Schwarzkopf.

(not) Looking forward to a very ugly campaign.

259 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:13:25am

Pro-fence ads being shown on US TV

In an effort to garner public support for the security fence, a series of 30-second TV ads featuring mothers whose children were killed by suicide bombers began airing in the Washington area last week.

The ads, sponsored by The Israel Project and featured on CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC, are one of the many steps US Jewish groups are taking in response to the International Court of Justice's hearing on the fence, and the decision by Israel, the US, and European nations to boycott the legal proceedings.

260 Dean Douthat  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:14:37am

Curse you, RWC, I wasted a good argument on your fake troll.

OTOH, fake trolling is useful in the same sense that a boxer working out with a sparing partner is useful. And, since RWC can easily out-debate any real troll that's likely to show up, it keeps our edge.

Oh well, that argument will survive for another day. It is an excellent generic come-back to any LLL who rants about some particular industry making "obscene profits". If they really believed that, wouldn't they load up their portfolios with stocks of companies in that sector? It's called: "Did you put your money where you mouth is?

I used this on my infuriatingly LLL sister-in-law who was ranting about drug companies ripping us off and making obscene profits. She had to admit that she had no drug company stocks now and never had owned even a single one. Further, her husband, a stock broker had never recommended a buy on one. Discussion ended at that point.

261 gymnast  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:14:55am

#238, Jolly Roger. Kerry had a CO unless he and his boat were sent to Viet Nam as a seperate command. Did his CO initiate his awards or just pass them on? Small point, "Fiberglass" of aluminum. By 1968,virtually every officer who served a tour in Nam got a bronze star (no V) as part of his rotation awards package.

262 epg  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:15:34am

Zulubaby - You defintely aren't alone. However, I fear, that as the media and our other institutions are (or seem to be) absent, out of fear, indifference, or design, it might be left for grassroots movements to carry forward the struggle. Sometimes an army of a few, or even of one, is effective.

I hope you have a good printer!

263 levi from queens  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:15:36am

To dead Pirate Gryphon-- living in New York is the "front lines.?" Pretty cushy front lines. Best restaurants, prettiest girls, most exciting streets... Baghdad is the front lines.

nonetheless--nicely stated to V the K

264 andthenblammo!  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:16:50am

The press tries to make a close race out of anything, just for entertainment value, oh, I'm sorry, news value. It's just what they do for a living.
If the Democratic candidates don't make nice with the current powers in the party (the Clintons, McAuliffe, Soros, the Hollywood bunch), the nomination is going to be very hard to get; look what happened to Dean. And I think that bunch I just mentioned will be a millstone around the neck of any Democratic presidential candidate. Plus, at the rate they're going, the LLL will all be on IV Prozac drips by September.

265 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:17:32am

OT a bit.

Don't worry "George Costanza" thinks there will be peace.

I believe this goes in the "shut up and sing", or "dance, monkey, dance" category.

266 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:18:00am

#263 levi:

Hyperbole? Yes. It's a legitimate rhetorical device when used correctly. That's why we have a word for it.

Sorry for the acerbic tone - I'm still pissed at the normally reasonable V the K.

267 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:18:28am

#259 zulubaby

Saw that story this morning. It would be nice if someone posted the ads on the net so we could see them.

268 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:19:51am

#263 levi:

And, BTW, that's Dread Pirate, if you please. Geez, a Scourge of the Seven Seas just don't get no respect any more.

269 grayp  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:20:07am

zulubaby, I, too, am worried. I think the GOP will do a good job of exposing Kerry's voting record, but I don't think most people care. I think that too many people don't really believe there is a war on. So who cares of Kerry makes Jimmy Carter ambassador to the UN, Carter got the Nobel, right?

Most people don't do their homework, are lazy, and don't WANT there to be a war.

Yeah, I've got this cold rock in my tummy.

270 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:20:28am
271 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:20:29am

#247 Athos 2/24/2004 11:04AM PST

Great post,...I've been reading LTC (RET) Ralph Peters since he retired from the Army back in '98 I believe.

another great retired Army Analyst is COL (RET) Robert Killabrew, who does stuff for NPR every now and then.

Robert Killabrew

272 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:21:20am

Dread Pirate Gryphon: I would be as devastated as the rest of America were terrorists to take out any of our cities (... except maybe Berkeley...) but realistically... if NYC or SFO is hit, there are going to be a lot more casualties from the Bush lied/No blood for oil/Bow before the UN camp than there would be were terrorists to strike, say Omaha, Grand Rapids, or Salt Lake City.

Butch Up.

273 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:22:59am

Athos (#257) & others:

I'm not reading the LA Times anymore, haven't for a long time now. It's just the feeling I get from speaking to people. I'm glad that there are people here who aren't worried, it makes me feel better about things but I don't think it's going to be a walk in the park for Bush.

V the K (#246)

I think the Republicans in Congress will hold back the worst of Kerry's liberal impulses

Someone else said that to me and I need to keep it in mind. I'm not someone who loves and adores Bush but I think he's the best we have right now. If we don't have someone fighting terrorism all the other issues won't really matter, will they?

epg (#262)

I hope you have a good printer!

That's funny since my printer starting giving me problems in the last week or so :-)

274 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:23:05am

#265 WriterMom
While I won't nominate Jason Alexander for Idiotarian of the Year (more and more I'm thinking John Kerry will my nod for that nefarious "honor"), he is now definitely on my List of Idiotarians. Another actor-cum-statesman/idiot joins the Sean Penns of the world. Unbelievable. Maybe he's supporting the Palestinians because of the hard time PETA gave him about his KFC (that's Kitchen Fresh Chicken to you!) endorsements.

275 elBarto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:23:18am
"The Israelis and the Palestinians are two incredible nations with a shared history and a bright possibility for the future," Costanza said. "The two peoples can be lights from the world."


Kinda hard to take the news seriously when they screw up like that.

276 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:24:51am
Butch Up.

LOL!!

277 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:25:01am

Re my #271

Out of respect for COL Killebrew his name is spelled with a 'e' Sorry bout that, sir!

sheesh I'm not making lots of friends today with my spelling>>>

278 johnCV  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:25:58am

I hope Bush will win.

But he has the fight of his life on his hands. He is up against the most ruthless, conniving, evil, win-at-all-costs regime in the history of the world. They will sacrifice anything to bring about his destruction - that includes up to half of all the men women and children in this country.
Not only that, but they have the ultimate weapon for mass destruction.....

John Effing Kerry - the perfect candidate. He can be on every side of every issue simultaneously, switching rhetoric faster than a diving 747. He has the supernatural quality that allows him to deny an accusation that has not been made, and then smear the opposition with the same issue.

Unfortunately for him, when you actually look at the man, you see.... nothing, an empty suit. He is merely a vessel in which to pour out hatred for Bush. I don't believe that is enough to win, but the world is getting stranger every day.

279 The Real Travis  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:26:00am

When the first poll came out showing a Democrat beating Bush my wife couldn’t sleep that night. I kept telling her:

1. Reagan’s polling numbers were worse at this point in his first term.

2. With the primaries happening all of the focus is on Dem sound bites/attacks on Bush (with Dr. Howie being the loudest at the time).

3. Bush has not yet begun to fight.

4. Reference the California recall polling the day before the election. The media deemed it too close to call.

5. Conservatives mad about things like amnesty and out-of-control spending influence the polls negatively (even though they would never vote for a Dem.)

The next day I had her log on to Democratic Underground to see the irrational Bush hatred and she felt much better after she realized these people do not represent the undecided middle.

I’m not going to rest on my laurels thinking the election is in the bag for Bush but I’m also not going to lose sleep over poll numbers.

280 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:26:34am

grayp (#269)

I think that too many people don't really believe there is a war on.

Or that the war is "illegal" and that we shouldn't be there anyway. Too many people don't believe in this war.

281 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:26:43am

#272 V the K: sorry, I'm with DP Gryphon on this one. And not just because I live in DC. Your comment sounds like the flip side of Michael Moore's "they didn't even vote for Bush" post-9/11 remarks. Think it over.

282 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:28:00am

For the record, I work within radioactive-fallout range of DC.

283 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:28:55am

V.theK. made a flippant remark, that was never meant to be taken literally

and I can;t believe the fallout

oy

284 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:29:44am

#272 V the K:

Butch up? BUTCH UP?!?!?!? What kind of mealy-mouthed non-response is that?

"Realistically", my dear, if Omaha or NYC or Bumfuck, Iowa were taken out, most of the casulaties would be dead, disintegrated or slowly-dying-from-radiation-burns Americans. Americans, you lout. Let's not forget what we're all committed to protecting here - and that includes not just L-cubed human dregs, but well-meaning, clueless Unitarians and the like.

Don't dig any deeper on this one - you can't make a honey cake out of a bloody turd like the one you laid above.

285 epg  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:29:56am

#151 - Ah, the French. They have such a beautiful-sounding language. Why does it all sound like shit? I couldn't believe the apparent ectasy that this so-called person would be in at the destruction of all those human beings.

Never forgive? Never forget? This uncultured, uncivilized American will keep her dollars at home.

Hey Soral - you poodle poop, you are the uncivilized one.

You're right - that was pornography.

286 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:30:56am

#144 V the K

Fake Trolls are like military drills... they keep us well-trained and sharp for facing the real thing

I think faux trolls are like hemorrhoids. They keep us on the edge of our seats, but they're a pain in the...


#156 RWC

You got me so worked up with the heroin comments I almost launched into my roommates-shooting-up-at-the-kitchen-table story. I don't like reliving those experiences.

287 The Real Travis  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:31:08am

That evil neocon Richard Perle is live on Dennis Prager's show right now.

288 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:32:12am

johnCV

you may be right

Kerry is a very dirty fighter

289 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:33:04am

287 The Real Travis

no url?

290 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:33:17am

#286 papijoe:

roommates-shooting-up-at-the-kitchen-tab le

Jack Frost, nipping at your nose...

[geez, this is the worst Christmas song I've ever heard]

291 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:33:27am

scaramouche, zulubaby et al:

I found the Israel Project, and they have a script of the ads on line. It's here.

I tried to play the ad, but it didn't work. Maybe someone else will be able to view it.

292 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:33:35am

#283 ploome:

"...fallout." Ha. Ha ha.

Seriously, though, ploome, flippancy is one thing - thoughtless bloodymindedness is quite another.

293 Rusty Shackleford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:34:36am
294 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:34:50am

I don't want there to be another terrorist attack, I just find it ironic that people who live in the cities most likely to be the target of terrorist attacks are most likely to vote ... in overwhelming numbers ... for the kinds of politicians whose policies encourage terrorism: Jerrold Nadler, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Barbara Lee, Charles Rangel, ... and the thoroughly vile Jose Serrano.

Maybe being reminded of that fact is unpleasant, but... butch up.

295 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:34:55am

Jordan: 'Wall' will push refugees into our land

Panic!!

The "wall" will push more refugees into our country, argued Jordanian Prince Zeid Ra'ad Zeid Al-Hussein before the International Court of Justice at The Hague, early Tuesday afternoon.

"With the exception of the Palestinians themselves, we believe it is us who are the ones most affected by Israel's decision to place the wall where it has, and where it intends to do so in the future," said Al-Hussein, who is Jordan's permanent representative to the United Nations.

"My country already hosts a number of refugees and displaced persons and my country is now faced with the new threat of refugees" as a result of the barrier that Israel is constructing, said Al-Hussein.

But I thought they were your brothers, surely you'd be willing to take them in?

Sorry to keep going off topic but it's the only active thread.

296 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:35:19am

#287 The Real Travis

You forgot the most important word: Jew, that evil neo-con Jew Richard Perle...

297 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:36:12am

Grayp #269 and Zulubaby #280

Of that, I am also very concerned. I don't know what this says about our society, but to think that so many forget 9/11 or ignore the message that it sent is discouraging.

I think I read in a recent Fox News / Opinion Dynamic poll that only 6% of the people polled think terrorism is a major issue for deciding who to vote for.

I for one keep on TiVo 2 9/11 specials - the HBO one narrated by Guiliani, and another one is the one that was based on the French filmmakers doing a documentry on NYFD.

We can never forget 9/11 or the fact that all of us are targets if we decide not to fight - just as we did from 1993-2001.

I hope that Bush or the RNC will use 9/11 to remind everyone of the price that has been paid already, and the risk that still remains.

298 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:38:55am
But I thought they were your brothers, surely you'd be willing to take them in?

Can't live with them, can kill 'em (like King Hussein did to 30,000).

299 Solomon X  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:39:08am

The Congress won't be able to hold Kerry back on the most important issues: foreign policy and the WOT. I would expect tragic results.

I do believe that enough people, at least in the red states, will sober up to what is in the nation's interest on election day. Many people might be grousing about a ABB vote right now, but I feel most of those who are legitimate swing voters will not vote against their own interests out of spite.

300 johnCV  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:40:45am

Ploome

Kerry's got that asswipe Scrum as a senior advisor working for him. Don't know if you ever had the misfortune of watching this guy. He's the sleaziest, dirtiest liar in the business - and that's saying alot. Makes Carville a warm and fuzzy guy in comparison.

Look for not only dirt, but things that are truly his inventions, not even the shadow of fact as a base.

I think there are a lot of things coming to head in this election. If kerry wins or loses but a hair, I think we are in some deep trouble down the road.
If Bush wins in a very strong showing, it signals that Americans are paying attention to what's going on around them - a good sign.

301 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:41:34am

Thanks, Rusty

302 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:41:38am

#294 V the K:

I don't want there to be another terrorist attack

Never suggested you did.

I just find it ironic that people who live in the cities most likely to be the target of terrorist attacks are most likely to vote

Oh. You were being ironic. Sorry. Must have missed the day in civilized discourse class where we learned that irony was a valid excuse for bloodthirsty polemics.

303 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:41:49am

#240 zulubaby

I go through mood swings with Bush and his chances on reelction. However, it is firming up into a definite belief that he will not only win, but win big. Look at the congressional races in 2002 with all the papers and news shows saying that it is going to be close or democrats might even pick up some seats.

But on the other hand, if Kerry does get elected we will have our first African American First Lady.

"African-hyphen-American belongs to blacks," Heinz Kerry's spokesman told reporters, insisting that it was proper for his boss to call herself African American as long as no hyphen was used or intended.

Alrighty then.

304 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:43:01am

#240 zulubaby

Stop worrying or I'll make with the Henny Youngman again! :-D
My wife does this Chicken Little/ Bush is gonna lose thing about every two weeks. First I told her to stop watching any news but Fox. Then told her to ignore polls and the *sshats at her work.

#246 V the K
#284 The Dread Pirate Gryphon

Whoa, that definitely was a tongue in cheek comment by V the K. Cease fire, please!

305 Dean Douthat  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:43:29am

I do think you were too flip, V the K, but there is a valid consideration. So long as terrorists targets have been in Blue States, there has been a damping factor on the reaction by the LLL sector therein. If the Islamists are stupid enough to hit a target in a Red State, the Jacksonian uproar that will ensue will be something to behold.

306 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:43:55am

#291 WriterMom

Here you go.

last pic of course.

307 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:44:37am

I really can't help causing offense. As a hardcore INTJ, I frequently underestimate people's emotional responses to what are, to me, simply objective observations.

308 Dar ul Harb  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:44:56am

#281, Occaisional Reader

Your comment sounds like the flip side of Michael Moore's "they didn't even vote for Bush" post-9/11 remarks.

Hear, hear!

And the reason Secretary Paige's criticism of the NEA is more relevant than Kerry's calling the Gingrich congress "terrorists" is that after 9/11 we should know better than to diminish the word through frivolous or casual use.

If one uses rhetoric like that, there's no basis to criicize the DU'ers for their 'Bushitler" nonsense.

309 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:45:22am

OT - Steyn Sighting.

Teachers are uncomfortable with the notion of an "opposing side" one must strive to "beat" - just as, in the war on terror, many grown-ups are uncomfortable with the notion of "the enemy": to the progressive mind, there are no enemies, just friends whose grievances we haven't yet fully acknowledged.

290 Occassional Reader

[geez, this is the worst Christmas song I've ever heard]

Yep. I feel like I have to drill a hole in my head to drain the sap after I hear it. OTOH, sap = $$. I remember reading that that one song guarantees Mel Torme & Bob Wells (and now their estates) about 2 mil a year in royalties, every year, like clockwork.

310 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:45:35am

papijoe (#304)

My wife does this Chicken Little/ Bush is gonna lose thing about every two weeks.

Good, so I'm not the only one!

First I told her to stop watching any news but Fox.

I don't even watch Fox very much anymore.

311 Jack Frost  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:48:15am

#294

just find it ironic that people who live in the cities most likely to be the target of terrorist attacks are most likely to vote ... in overwhelming numbers ... for the kinds of politicians whose policies encourage terrorism: Jerrold Nadler, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer, Barbara Lee, Charles Rangel, ... and the thoroughly vile Jose Serrano.


I dont think so. I think people in cities are torn between two equally horrible prospects: people like Bush that will protect them from Islamic extremism but not represent them at home and Kerry (or people like him) that will fight for liberty at home but not protect them from Islamic extremism.

312 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:49:29am
313 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:49:41am

#306 Right Wing Conspirator.

Swooooooon.

...and Rummy looks good, too.

314 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:49:48am

#304 papijoe:

Look, I know she wasn't literally calling for the nuclear incineration of New York to effect an ideological purge.

My point is that those of us who live within 3 miles of a potential actual ground zero may not appreciate the finer points of such a highly developed comic sensibility.

Perhaps I am oversensitive today - I just finished re-reading Fallaci's The Rage and the Pride and I'm all worked up. (BTE, Orianna makes the same point - there are some things that call for unadulterated gravitas.) I still think V the K's archness is over the top.

315 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:50:28am

307 V the K

Is that Briggs-Meyers, or the other similar one? Being in sales, I have to do these kind of trainings all the time. I always thought it would be cool to have LGFers test themselves.

316 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:51:02am

In retrospect, I should not have made that comment in that context. But it's probably too late for that, so I'm just gonna take my own advice, "Butch Up" and ignore the slams.

317 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:52:07am

#314 The Dread Pirate Gryphon

Look, I know she he wasn't literally calling for the nuclear incineration of New York to effect an ideological purge.

:P

318 davic  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:54:02am

I think for swing voters, this is kerry's real achiles heal. Contrast Kerry with Hillary: Hillary is voting for every Bush pro-defense proposal, wars and weapon systems. When hillary runs for president, unlike kerry, her voting record will be bulletproof on national security. Hillary, unlike Kerry, aint no fool.

319 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:54:06am

#314 DP Gryphon:

Look, I know she wasn't literally calling for

As many have pointed out before: V the K's a man, baby!

V the K: forget the remarks about nuclear incineration of major cities; clearly you need to start writing more about shotguns and power tools and the like, in order to avoid this ongoing gender confusion.

(By the way, I'm very skeptical about Briggs-Meyers)

320 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:55:01am

#298 scaramouche
Arab governments (including the PA!) have done more harm to the Palestinians than anybody else. It's one of the ongoing hypocrisy's re:Israel and the Palestinians. You mentioned the casualty figure of 30,000, and that was just a single (albeit very, very bloody) event in 1970 (Black September, as it's called) when the Palestinians tried to overthrow King Hussein of Jordan.

321 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:56:44am

#319 OC

(By the way, I'm very skeptical about Briggs-Meyers)

I agree - that stuff reads like a horoscope.
BTW, Briggs-Meyers...BM. Hmm, is that what Ed Moran was talking about? ;-)

322 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:57:59am

#307 V the K:

I frequently underestimate people's emotional responses to what are, to me, simply objective observations.

Ah, I see - so your flippant, non-serious, half-joking observation that it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing if NYC were nuked (and please don't try to deny the impetus behind your remark - in fact, I share it, in that I believe too many of us (US citizens) are obstructing our war against terrorist states and the terrorist cells here - and I include George W. Bush in that number for having recklessly squandered his opportunity to put this country on a war footing) - as I say, you were being completely objective, were you? C'est pour rire, my dear.

323 Lively  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:58:50am

#312 zulubaby. From your Reuters links:

.....after Israeli construction workers started to flatten farmland....

I'm not a farmer or anything, but I thought "farm land" was flat to begin with.

324 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:00:22am

#306 RWC

Wow! Rumsfeld really didn't serve in the military either since he was in the United States Navy Reserve!!!

/sarcasm off

He was a dapper fellow...

325 Sean  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:00:24am

Briggs-Meyers...FEH!

Briggs & Stratton!

326 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:00:38am

#314 The Dread Pirate Gryphon
Totally understandable. It a tough call to know when to let friends duke it out and settle it themselves or to try to play peacemaker. I've seen V the K show real integrity and I don't believe he would intentionally offend anyone, even if he got a little defensive after.

Living near Ground Zero, you have a right to be emotional. The first time I saw it was a shock I'll never forget.

327 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:01:02am

Fine, man, woman, silicoid life-form from the Qristulap system -

In retrospect, I should not have made that comment in that context. But it's probably too late for that

Way to butch up, Vikkie.

328 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:01:11am

#321 andrew:

Interesting piece from The Skeptic's Dictionary on the subject of the Myers-Briggs test (turns out it's Myers-Briggs, not Briggs-Myers, who knew?).

329 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:01:28am
I agree - that stuff reads like a horoscope.

Yeah, but Myers-Briggs describes me pretty well... at least I think it does. Then again, the Taurus description does pretty well too ... that part about attractive to the opposite sex, although probably true, isn't very useful, tho'.

330 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:01:45am

#316 V the K

In retrospect, I should not have made that comment in that context. But it's probably too late for that, so I'm just gonna take my own advice, "Butch Up" and ignore the slams.

Some of us knew you were not serious. Hell, I live in San Francisco. Just do me a favor and warn me in advance when you're getting ready to nuke us. ;) :-P

331 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:01:52am

As far as the election goes, I haven't gone around polling everyone I know, of course, but where there is movement I see far more people among my acquaintances moving LEFT to RIGHT.

I see none going RIGHT to LEFT.

In other words, how many folks here know of anybody who voted for Bush in 2000, but intends to vote for Kerry in November?

332 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:02:22am

OT

Um, is this a good idea?

Emirates airline plans an ambitious roll-out of its non-stop flights to the US, it was revealed yesterday, with new American destinations added to the list.

In the next two years, the Middle East's top airline plans to add San Francisco or Los Angeles and Chicago to its direct flights to New York, which begin in June.

I hope Ridge & Minetta et al are paying attention.

333 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:03:39am

#324 John Gibbon

That he was. I am still on a quest to find the elusive Rummy in a singlet picture for WriterMom and Atomic Redneck.

334 johnCV  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:04:34am

318 davic

You're right. Kerry will likely lose when people start paying attention. Hillary has been smart by voting for national security measures. She won't loose her base, because they know she is only doing this to win the election and does not believe in any of it.

What a shame we need to be so cynical, but with the clintons (and many dems) the only motivation is to win.

335 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:05:17am

#328 OC

Yup. I know a horoscope when I see one.

336 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:06:26am

#329 V the K:

Then again, the Taurus description does pretty well too

You mean you offer "clean, sculpted lines, and a stylish new look"?

337 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:06:59am

Interesting piece questioning Kerry's post-war actions, from an el cubist bastion, no less:

[Link: www.villagevoice.com...]

338 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:07:00am

Brian Stein --- Emirates is run by Brits... so not too much to worry about there. Emirates are also launch customers, and so far the largest customers --- for the A380, 555-passenger, Euro-subsidy-double-decker-mega-airliner --- which would only make you more nervous so I'm sorry I brought it up.

339 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:07:15am

V the K (#329)

I'm a Taurus too.

Wild Justice (#331)

In other words, how many folks here know of anybody who voted for Bush in 2000, but intends to vote for Kerry in November?

I do.

340 The Real Travis  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:08:26am

#318 Davic

I think you are right. Bush will win in 2004 and I have pretty much steeled myself for President Hillary Clinton in 2008. Setting aside my personal distaste for HRC, I can rest easier knowing she understands the WOT much better than the current crop of Dems who ran in this primary (Lieberman excluded). I just hope we have a Rupublican majority in Senate and House to check and balance the ensuing social re-engineering.

341 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:08:33am

#329 V the K: or is is that you deliver extreme excellence?

342 Renna  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:08:38am

#331 WJ

In other words, how many folks here know of anybody who voted for Bush in 2000, but intends to vote for Kerry in November?

According to our favorite UT law prof, the New York Times found one, but apparently only one so they have to keep reusing his quote.

(And for all you Longhorns who use UT and just expect everyone to know, the "T" in UT is for Tennessee here. ;-)

343 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:09:36am

The Gulf News wants to know: Could Kerry be the honest broker?

Neither Israel nor America has any commitment to upholding Palestinian dignity, not to mention life. With Democratic Senator John Kerry looking more and more like a possible White House contender, the question on the lips of Arabs is: Will Kerry break the mould? Might there finally be an honest broker, an impartial intermediary in the Oval office?

Disappointingly, it doesn't look like it. Kerry is a chameleon, adept at disguising his beliefs. Like Bush he enjoyed a patrician upbringing, attending boarding schools in Switzerland and New England before Yale, where he also joined the secretive Skull and Bones élitist society.

Aparrently not.

344 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:09:56am
You mean you offer "clean, sculpted lines, and a stylish new look"?

Why, yes, I have been working out... thanks for noticing.

345 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:10:13am

#336 Occasional Reader

LMAO!

346 Wild Justice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:11:37am

zulubaby

If that person is not a relative or close friend of yours, please slap him/her in the head for me. Thank you.

347 elBarto  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:11:57am

339 Zulubaby
And what brand of crack are they smoking?
I saw bumber sticker in the parking lot at the UofU last night with "luv ya dubya". Of course the cars on either side still had the Dean for Pres stickers still on them.

348 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:12:01am

#333 RWC,

I used to wrestle in HS. That singlet was the MOST uncomfortable thing to wear, physically and emotionally.

Imagine walking around a cold dank gym somewhere in the central midwest during winter. It isn't 'xactly like anything is bulging out with all that chill air hitting your 'you know what' *


* for a description of a 'you know what' please refer to the Rumsfeld thread of Friday, 20 FEB where 'you know whats' are discussed in detail...

349 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:12:44am

#319 Occasional Reader

I'm very skeptical about Briggs-Meyers

I've found that and similiar systems to be fairly useful in dealing with prospects and customers. Nothing magical, just a kind of crude measuring stick for personalities.

350 sambam  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:13:13am

fake trolls

351 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:14:19am

327 The Dread Pirate Gryphon

I can get you some prozac

352 sambam  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:14:55am

Cool. It worked.
Always wonderd how dey do dat.

353 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:16:43am

Wild Justice and elBarto, these are people that I know, and not smoking crack, believe it or not. The people that hate Bush really hate him, they'll vote against him no matter what.

354 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:16:44am
#329 V the K: or is is that you deliver extreme excellence?

Judging from this thread... apparently not.

355 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:17:24am

ploome - just out of curiosity, where do you live?

356 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:18:07am

354 V the K

intuitive introverts are often misunderstood

must expect that

357 Renna  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:19:17am

And they liked him before? What's the dif? Spending? The war? Too much or not enough?

358 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:19:58am

Gryphon

I live in a 'target city', and I am of the
'target' persuasion

we are all in this together

New York, or flying over Salt Lake City

we will save you..:-)

359 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:20:04am

>

I'm a Taurus too

Picture of Zulubaby!

Let's just say I rode in Zulubaby for awhile on my last business trip. It was pretty cheap on a per day basis!!!!!

ducking quickly and moving.....

360 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:20:18am

#351 ploome:

Fuck Prozac. How 'bout some Thorazine so I can pretend V the K can BUTCH UP to some genuine criticism??

361 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:21:16am

How Dare Dead Pirate Gryphon Attack My Patriotism!!!!

Sorry, thought I was John F. Kerrigan for a minute.

362 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:21:43am

Way, way OT. But you know what? It's almost home time and we are on a thread starvation diet today....

Here's something that was definitely needed at the Friday night party here last week.

363 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:21:48am

I will say this - "Butch Up" seems like a perfect candidate for the home page header banner collection.

364 Rusty Shackleford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:22:29am

#312 Zulubaby

Don't you just love the imagery? The "David" Palestinian takes on the "Goliath" IDF with nothing more than a sling and his faith in the cause!

/sarcasm

This makes me sick.

365 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:24:03am

Okay enough fighting already!

The Dread Pirate Gryphon, you have to admit "butch up" was funny :-)

John Gibbon, you're a dead man ...

366 The Dread Pirate Gryphon (Butchin' Up!)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:26:17am

V the K

Like I said, I'm not on a completely even keel today, so perhaps I missed some more of your exquisite irony, but DID I question your patriotism?

And I promose not to call you Vikkie any more if you'll stop imitating Gordon with the scintillating "Dead Pirate" wordsmithing.

367 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:27:08am

#359 John Gibbon:

Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis? this is a picture of Zulubaby! And lemme tellya, when I hold her in my arms... and I feel my finger on her trigger... I know nobody can do me no harm...

368 epg  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:27:28am

#337 Thanks for the link

" What did Kerry do in furtherance of the cover-up? An overview would include the following: He allied himself with those carrying it out by treating the Pentagon and other prisoner debunkers as partners in the investigation instead of the targets they were supposed to be. In short, he did their bidding."

When John Kerry's Courage Went MIA

Kerry' behavior behavior continues - debunk, align yourself, and repeat the lies often enough they will be believed.

But he is dhimmi material - "In short, he did their bidding."

Yes, I'm worried - the sky isn't falling yet, but I'm looking for Atlas - hopefully George W will be back in.

369 The Dread Pirate Gryphon (Butchin' Up!)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:28:09am

#365 zulubaby:

See my nick? How's THAT for a sensayuma?

370 JeffF  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:28:13am

WriterMom

I'm in an office today with a web filter, so I can't get your link, but as a drunken Friday night poster the url has me worried...

371 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:28:45am

V t K abu pinãta of the moment:

For the record, I work in NYC and most of my family is in NYC (or from NYC for that matter). I'm rather fond of the place, LLL and all!

I see others have taken you to task for your comments, so I'll leave well enough alone.

372 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:29:27am

It seems Kerry never met a weapons program he liked. I wish this were a bigger issue in the media. It really is a defining characteristic of him.

#221 Thom - From your link to the President's remarks:

The amendment should fully protect marriage, while leaving the state legislatures free to make their own choices in defining legal arrangements other than marriage.

OK. I actually wish the issue never came up. That said, I think this is reasonable considering what the majority of Americans want. I can understand the concerns of gay marriage weakening the institution (e.g. what about polygamy?).

I just don't like the level of discourse in the country whenever gays are mentioned. (Not referring to anyone here). That said, things are a lot better than they were. Being a teenager when AIDS surfaced, and being infected shortly after, really was an awful thing, and for a long time I refused to vote Republican. Now, I can see the big picture is the WoT.

373 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:30:08am

Rusty Shackleford (#324)

Funny thing is that it's a Reuters photograph but they negelected to mention it in the article scaramouche linked to in #248.

374 Solomon X  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:31:12am

zulubaby

Read GWB's speech from last night. It might make you feel better. I believe the prez did answer the wake up call.

375 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:32:33am

#367 Occasional Reader
#359 John Gibbon

Crazy fools! I al'eady tol' you this is zulubaby!

376 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:33:19am

#367 Occasional Reader,

Now you've made me spew my hot thai food all over me monitor, mate!

whew, and I thought I was going to be in trouble, alone, but I guess we both in the dog house now!!!

(don't worry, dog house has a fine selection of single malt scotch, draught beer and HDTV with over 107 channels)


#365 Zulubaby,

Just imagine me in a wrestling singlet and your humor level should come back!!!

377 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:33:39am

#353 zulubaby

Your friends that really hate Bush. What was it that changed them from voting for him in 2000 to hating him now?

378 Emma  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:35:47am
379 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:37:00am

The Dread Pirate Gryphon (Butchin' Up!)

LOL!

papijoe, definitely preferable to being perceived as a car or a gun!

Solomon X, thanks for the link.

380 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:38:58am

#379 zulubaby:

definitely preferable to being perceived as a car or a gun!

It could have been worse. Just imagine the photos we'd have linked if you had said you were a Cancer. Ick.

381 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:39:25am

#100 Kevin P - This is perhaps unfair because I when I read your post #100, I stopped scrolling down the thread to respond to you (that is to say, you may have managed to, ahem, qualify your post); moreover, it may be late. Some of the many LGF'ers who are serious in their desire to communicate, educate and learn (such as Zulubaby, Ploome, Thom, Colt, Abu Moran, RIP Ford, Doug in Va, Amy, Yehuda, V the K and many others) may have already said this, but I couldn't wait :

You, sir, are an asshole.

To disagree with the "thoughts" of John Kerry; to PASSIONATELY disagree with his world view, is more than acceptable. To accuse him of being a traitor; on a level with, or, as you seem to feel, even below Benedict Arnold is so intellectually indefensible, so prototypically
adle brained, that I fear you may be a LLL troll.
Whether you are an LLL troll or not, fuck you.

382 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:39:31am

OT: The first two Gitmo detainees are to face a military tribunal. I wonder how this process might change if Kerry were Prez.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

383 Necklace of shoes  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:43:06am

Uncle Ted just bought this for
Kerry. Helps keep your candidacy afloat.

[Link: www.amphicar.com...]

384 johnCV  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:44:30am

340 TheRealTravis

I think you are right. Bush will win in 2004 and I have pretty much steeled myself for President Hillary Clinton in 2008. Setting aside my personal distaste for HRC, I can rest easier knowing she understands the WOT much better than the current crop of Dems who ran in this primary (Lieberman excluded). I just hope we have a Rupublican majority in Senate and House to check and balance the ensuing social re-engineering

Do you really believe that she has a true grasp of the WoT? I don't mean the political ramifications (e.g. how to win certain blocks of votes) which I'm sure she is a master. She is an internationalist who believes the UN should be the final arbiter of US interests around the world.
How about 'profiling', the Patriot Act, reduction/restriction of intelligence budgets, downsizing of the military (do think it was just bill who loathes the military?). She may have voted now for many of these things, but can you honestly say that she believes in these actions?
She is first and foremost a socialist utopian whose main drive is to transform the US into her image. We should always question politicians, but in her case assume the worst and wait for confirmation.

385 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:45:41am

#372 Baldy

I'm one of those far right wingnuts who opposes even civil unions or any other form of legal recognition for such domestic living arrangements, but I would compromise on that if only the gay rights groups would leave marriage alone.

But, whatever. The amendment will never pass and the activist judges will win. Once the Texas sodomy law was overturned, the doors were opened to everything - up to and including polygamy. Santorum was right about that, although he took a lot of heat for saying it from those who, innocently or not, misinterpreted him.

I'm very sorry to hear that you have AIDS. I don't what to say except - I hope you will be as well as you can be for many years to come. (I hope that came out right.)

386 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:46:05am

RWC-you still there? Speaking of Rummy.

387 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:46:32am

RWC (#377)

I don't know that it's any one thing although it's mostly the war. They hate the war, were strongly opposed to it to begin with and it's only become worse. I've convinced one of them to vote for Bush and I'll keep working on the others. Bear in mind that it's not an easy task for me since I'm not absolutely crazy about Bush myself, I just don't trust any of the others to fight this threat effectively. For all his faults, I still think Bush is okay. These friends (acquaintances really, or social "friends") are not that plugged in anyway and eat up whatever the media feeds them. But remember, we're the sheeple (or however you spell that bit of stupidity.)

388 HULUGU  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:48:23am

just what we need when we are in a war--an anti-war president--kerry is the mcclellan of the modern age--he wouldn't have fought the south and when fired would've sought peace and accomodation with slavery--he is a modern version of a copperhead and deserves the fate of the peace democrats--war is too important to leave to self important peaceniks even those who saw combat-killed a wounded man--and left his tour of duty eight months before it expired due to three "wounds" which required no hospitalization and three days off active duty--hell-i was against the vietnam war also--but unlike the idiotarians who are cases of sixties arrested development--you can't fight the war you are in now through the prism of the last war--totally different historical circumstances--yet perceived with historical rigidity through a time tunnel of blinders to present cause and effect--the guy's not unpatriotic or a maroon--he's just WRONG--and he looks suspiciously french

389 abu-Hoo-Hoo  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:48:23am

382 scaramouche

he'd give them visa's & green cards with a pat on the back for a 'job well done.'

390 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:48:29am

#381 realwest

Good point, the post slipped by me. I was too wrapped up in responding to RWC's fake troll to notice.

{glares menacingly at RWC} :p

391 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:49:42am

Baldy (#372)

I'm so sorry to hear that.

392 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:50:00am

#381 realwest

Make sure you read the Village Voice article linked to here.

It is difficult for me to register my contempt for John Effin Kerry.

393 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:51:55am

HULUGU (#388)

and he looks suspiciously french

No wonder the Europeans like him.

394 Rayra[deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:52:15am
395 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:53:37am

zulubaby

Re: your Bush hating friends. Have any of those friendships gone under as a result of the disagreement? A couple of mine have. Most recently, when I forwarded the Hero Miles info to everyone in my address book. A (former) friend replied with an incredibly seething email, accusing me of laying a guilt trip on him in an attempt wash the blood off my hands. It was... disappointing.

396 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:53:51am

#386 WriterMom
LOL.

Excuse me while I enjoy my beautiful time with Rummy...


Is that your quote. Could be.

#387 zulubaby

Thanks. It just seems a stretch for someone to vote for him and then despise him later on. But to each his own. I know it can be hard to defend him when he has stumbled so many times, often refusing to get back up (ie - Saudis, prescription drugs, huge spending, etc...) Even though my nic is RWC I don't want people to confuse that with undying support for Bush. He has pissed me off many times but when it comes down to him or any of the choices that the Dems are fielding. For me, there is no choice.

397 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:54:02am

#372 Baldy: Stay well. Call me a nutty optimist, but I'm convinced we'll be relegating HIV to the trash heap of immunology (next to smallpox) before too long.

398 WriterMom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 10:55:57am

Baldy-I am also sorry to read about your illness.

399 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:01:09am

#381 realwest
In general I agree with you that it is wrong to label somebody a "traitor" or "unpatriotic" because one disagrees with their political views. For what it's worth, I get the feeling Kevin P. copied and pasted something he read into #100 because he thought it was interesting and on topic. Or maybe he wrote it himself. Either way, he has not participated in this thread in over three hours. I personally find Kerry to be a revolting human being. While I would not label him "unpatriotic", I am disturbed by the fact that he served our country with distinction, then came home and lied (or otherwise exaggerated) about the behavior of U.S. forces in Vietnam for his own political game. That is traitorous, if not to our country, then surely to his fellow servicemen. Plenty of combat vets came home from Vietnam and criticized the war effort without lying to the U.S. public. I thought post #100 was interesting food for thought even if I would not myself call Kerry a traitor to our country.

400 The Dread Pirate Gryphon (Butchin' Up!)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:04:13am

#394 Rayra:

Being relentless in your badgering doesn't make your point any more palatable than comments about nuking NYC, regardless of how Right you think you are.

And a kneejerk defense of the indefensible, especially after I did my best to lighten up (maybe you should take the time to read ALL the posts before you offer your 2 cents), doesn't make your case very well, either. Globular clusters yourself.

401 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:05:03am

Baldy (#372)

I'll be keeping you in prayer for a full recovery. It can happen. You're a good egg in my dozen.

And I'm still trying to figure out your African-American Presidential name...

402 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:06:06am

Sort of back on topic; speaking of canceling weapons systems, yesterday's articles about the Comanche cancellation mentioned that the F-22 is another major system that is being eyed for the chopping block by some in DoD. I'd be interested to hear what military LGFers have to say about this. Personally, I'd be very concerned if the F-22 were cut. It's been at least 20 years since the US fielded an entirely new air-superiority fighter; maintaining air dominance is crucial, and I for one am more than happy to pay for it.

Discuss.

403 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:06:58am

Rayra (#394)

You need to get outside of West L.A.

What!? You want me to go to the Valley!? LOL, I know, the people here are so freaky it's unbelievable.

brianstien (#395)

Re: your Bush hating friends. Have any of those friendships gone under as a result of the disagreement?

Yes, they have. The people that I refer to as acquaintances used to be more than that but there are other factors that undermined the friendships, not just political differences. Most of the people in my life have been my friends since I was a kid but sometimes people outgrow each other I guess. The relationships can become very strained over politics though.

RWC (#396)

It just seems a stretch for someone to vote for him and then despise him later on.

I don't really agree with that, people change their minds. My friend voted for Clinton and absolutely despises him now. Of course I fight with him about Bush too 'cos I don't love Bush enough for his tastes. LOL.

404 iagofest a.k.a. abu fly killa  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:07:17am

Please, anything but the globular clusters!!!!!

405 The Real Travis  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:09:02am

#384 johnCV

I was only drawing a comparison to John Effin' Kerry. I dislike Clinton and her politics intensely but I don't imagine she could do a worse job than Kerry would when it comes to the WOT. I imagine a preisdency by HRC would be similar to BJ Clinton with less c**k sucking, more social engineering, and even more fingers-to-the-wind. If the American public cares about the WOT, so will HRC.

As much as I dislike and don't respect Hillary, I'm not going to sit around in 2007 like a bunch of DUers of today and think that my hate for her will defeat her in the general election and then feel like I was gut-punched when she wins. I can't wait to visit DU Wednesday morning November 3rd.

406 The Dread Pirate Gryphon (Butchin' Up!)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:09:33am

#404 iagofest:

Hey, I was just butchin' up, minding my own business, when Rayra clustered all up on my globs.

407 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:09:40am

#402 OR

I can't objectively say much about the F-22 because I have loved military jets since I was a wee lad. Higher, faster, more weapons systems, greater agility - it's all good to me.

408 Rusty Shackleford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:11:19am

OT-Did anyone check out Al Quaida's recent accusation that France was a Zionist country?

Al-Qaida leader condemns hijab ban

This is a new sign of the Crusader hatred which Westerners harbour against Muslims while they boast of freedom, democracy and human rights
This is a campaign planned by the Crusader Zionists (Israel supporters) with their agents in Egypt, Turkey and Tunisia and other Islamic countries," al-Zawahri said

France being accused of being a "Crusader Zionist" ?!?! What will they go accusing the French of next, being clean and hygenic?

409 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:11:26am

#402 Occasional Reader

It's been at least 20 years since the US fielded an entirely new air-superiority fighter; maintaining air dominance is crucial, and I for one am more than happy to pay for it.

Here, here. My thoughts exactly. Cutting this program would be bad when one considers that amount of time R&D takes. Will we have to wait another 20 years before we get a new, front-line fighter? We still don't know how well our F-18s, F-15s, F-14s, and F-16s match up against the latest MiG and Sukhoi series in real air combat.

410 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:13:35am

"Crusader Zionist" would be a wicked nic.

411 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:14:03am

#408 Rusty S.

OT-Did anyone check out Al Quaida's recent accusation that France was a Zionist country?

I read that article earlier today. I did not realize that Zawahiri is doing stand-up comedy now.

412 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:14:12am

#409 mickthemick: I suppose the argument on the other side is, we should sit tight and wait for the Joint Strike Fighter. But I don't like the time lag involved, and I don't like putting all our eggs in one basket in terms of air superiority. I recall reading that no US ground soldier has been killed by enemy aircraft since... Korea, IIRC. I'd like to keep it that way.

413 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:14:22am

#246 V the K - I, again, am posting a response without going through the entire thread, but you, someone who's post's I usually respect, are an unmitigated scumbag for your post at #246. " A lot fewer liberal"....
I"M in NYC. I'm not a liberal/socialist. And even liberal socialists don't deserve to be nuked.
NYC has taken the real brunt of the War on Terrorism so far and your post is about as mean spirited and negative as anything I've ever seen. Ok, I know that some of us in NYC think the rest of the country is, well, undereducated and unspohisticated, but we DON'T want your support in proving that theory.
I'm really pissed off at your post. I mean REALLY pissed off.
I guess you need to be reminded that New York City is part of the United States of America. Some of us think we're a significant part of this country.
So FUCK YOU.

414 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:18:16am

The amendment will never pass and the activist judges will win

That's the funniest misspelling of "plaintiffs" that I ever did see.

415 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:18:23am

402 Occasional Reader
#407 andrew

I know it's also about capabilities and not just who the competition is, but are there any other fighters better than the upgraded F-14s,16s, 18s?

416 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:18:27am

#409 Occasional

I suppose the argument on the other side is, we should sit tight and wait for the Joint Strike Fighter.

I thought the F-22 was the JSF. I could be wrong.

417 J.D.  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:18:37am
.....By holding down the left flank of the national debate on any subject, Mr. Nader could make Senators Kerry or Edwards look more centrist than they are. In any event, we don't recall this level of media angst about "spoilers" when Ross Perot was damaging GOP candidates in 1992 and 1996.

It's also amusing to see liberals suddenly appalled by the Nader phenomenon they have done so much to create. On NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday, Mr. Nader railed as ever against "corporate" interests, a line he began 39 years ago when he launched his first media campaign against the Chevrolet Corvair.

Mr. Nader is best understood as the inventor of today's nexus of liberal politics and trial-lawyer opportunism. His network of organizations have long been suspected of taking trial-lawyer cash, but it is impossible to tell because Mr. Nader refuses to disclose their financial backers. Yet just like Senators Kerry and Edwards he denounces the influence of sinister "special interests." It's a little ungrateful for Mr. Edwards to now upbraid the man who did so much to make the Senator's own fortune and political career possible.

The irony!

Ralph Rides Again: Liberals created Nader. Now they fear he'll destroy them.

418 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:21:26am

#414 Throbert McGee

I fail to see the humor in judges legislating from the bench ...

419 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:23:20am

I share zulubaby's and others' concerns about Bush's reelection chances. I think too many people are only going to vote economic and/or social issues, and as far as the economy is concerned, only perceptions matter. The economy is picking up, but at the risk of sounding elitest, most people just don't realize this, particularly with the twin messages of doom and gloom coming from Kerry and from the mass media. The posters here are a self selected group that is obviously concerned with the WOT, but the general public just isn't that concerned. Bush and his team have perhaps been too successful in fending off additional terrorism - the sense of urgency post 9/11 has slacked off, and more mundane matters have come to the fore. Kerry feels comfortable with this, thus his (awful to me) response to the NPR interviewer recently when he pointedly declined to identify himself as a war president if elected: he said he'd be a jobs, education, health, and environment president. Gee, that's just fine, if the terrorists will let him!
The electoral votes breakout does give me hope, though, even if Bush can't pull out the popular vote.
Just my two cents worth.

420 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:25:49am

#409 Occasional
I was wrong. I checked out the Lockheed Martin site, and the JSF is the F/A-35. The Raptor (F/A-22) is a different aircraft.

421 abu-Hoo-Hoo  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:28:39am

completely OT

Mugabe gets religion and won’t talk with “the devil.”

"We can't discuss with allies of the Western countries that would want to destroy our economy," he said. (what economy?)

"The devil is the devil... we have no idea of supping with the devil."(we’ll starve, refuse medical assistance for our young and pee in our pants with rage that we‘re starving and killing our young; just like ever other self-respecting turd-world nation is doing.)

422 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:31:33am

#419 Doug in VA
I agree with you re: the economy. We hear in the SF/Silicon Valley area have been hard hit by the economic downturn, and I have unemployed friends who have been looking for work for months. I'm thankful I have not been laid-off. I don't think the economy is as bad as some make it out to be. The high employment rate the U.S. enjoyed during the second half of the last decade was great, but I think it was also an anomaly. Bush's track record on the economy is not that bad when you consider everything, including the hit the economy took from 9/11. Economies are largely abstract things that rely on consumer confidence, among other things. The Bush Admin. has tried to rally consumer confidence. I can't say that about the Dems., or about the media. And that's another reason why I'll be voting for Dubya.

423 Geepers  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:34:16am

Thom (#418),

I fail to see the humor in judges legislating from the bench ...

This picture gives a whole new meaning to packing the court through the back door.

424 Inside the Whale  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:34:21am

Late to the thread.

Never saw this interview on CNN (and sorry if it's been posted before), but this is Kerry's spin on his Vets Against the War tour of duty. Lying sack of shit doesn't begin to cover it.

WOODRUFF: Two other very quick things, Senator. One is, it's been reported that, well you're aware of this, Vietnam veterans upset with the fact that when you came back from the war, you went to Capitol Hill, and you testified in so many words against the kinds of things that U.S. soldiers were doing over there...

KERRY: Yes, I did.

WOODRUFF: To the Vietnamese.

KERRY: Yes, I did.

WOODRUFF: They are saying, in effect, you were accusing American troops of war crimes.

KERRY: No, I was accusing American leaders of abandoning the troops. And if you read what I said, it is very clearly an indictment of leadership. I said to the Senate, where is the leadership of our country? And it's the leaders who are responsible, not the soldiers. I never said that. I've always fought for the soldiers. In fact, not only did we oppose the war, but we proudly stood up and fought for the additions to the GI Bill so that vets would be able to use it. We fought for the V.A. Hospitals. I wrote the Agent Orange legislation with Tom Daschle. I helped with the post-Vietnam stress syndrome outreach centers.

I'm proud of the record of fighting for soldiers and for veterans. And the fact is if we want to redebate the war on Vietnam in 2004, I'm ready for that. It was a mistake, and I'm proud of having stood up and shared with America my perceptions of what was happening.

425 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:34:24am

#421 Abu Hoo-Hoo
Why is Robert Mugabe still alive? And is that not a 'Hitler Mustache' on his lip?

I'm off for a little while. ;)

426 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:37:36am

#423 Geepers

With much trepidation - and making sure the kids were nowhere in sight - I clicked on your link, and Omigawd! ROFL!

427 SoCalJustice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:38:38am

(#402) OR

On the thread where we were discussing why Israel purchased the F-16Is, instead of the F-22s, I did some googling and found an article that claimed that Clinton offered the Israelis some F-22s if they wanted them, but the Israelis would likely turn them down because they were too expensive and unnecessary for regional military superiority.

I would love it if someone could figure out a way to make the F-22's reasonable enough for our Air Force, and for the Israelis too - maybe take out the beverage holder and the dvd player. ;-)

F-22 Promised By Clinton May Be Too Costly For Israel - And For U.S.

428 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:40:10am

#423 Geepers

LOL. Why are you stealing my StrangeCosmos pics.


Oh, that's right. It was I who stole that site from you.

Carry on. ;-)

429 Zack  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:41:53am

Commies and jihadis are apples and oranges. The Red Threat never lived up to its billing. History bears that out. At this point, the remaining Reds are only as dangerous as the French - in their jihadi sympathies and resistance to the WOT. Defense budgets aimed at the Red Threat were, therefore, mostly wasted tax dollars.

Jihadis, on the other hand - entirely different ball game, and the danger from them is still drastically underestimated. Unlike the Reds, they share virtually none of the West's values. Also unlike the Reds, their view of nuclear weapons (and their delivery systems: jihadi foot soldiers) is entirely different. MAD will not work with them, nor will anti-ballistic missle systems.

If Kerry's previous opposition to defense spending is unchanged in our present situation, that's not good. But neither is the Bush approach if he is not aiming defense dollars at the jihadi threat: terror-enabling mullahs, the madrassas, jihadi text book writers, printers, and publishers.

Bottom line: Bush's Religion of Peace mantra is potentially as dangerous as Kerry's UN permission slip approach. We need immediate action to take out the mushroom spores spread by Mr Khan - possibly including Khan and his own nuke program. That's a start. I don't see that level of awareness from either of these guys.

430 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:43:56am

#429 Zack

Defense budgets aimed at the Red Threat were, therefore, mostly wasted tax dollars.

HaHa! Man, that's a crack-up!

431 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:46:36am

Thom #385 - Actually, I was thinking of Pat Buchanan & a few others. Most everyone I know thinks I'm a wing-nut for betraying the cause. Thank you for your kind words about my health.

zulubaby #391
Occasional Reader #397
WriterMom #398
papijoe #410
Thank you all for your kind words. For a long time, I had only one T-cell. All of my Drs. said "anything can happen at anytime." Anyway, my life expectancy in the late '80's was 18 mos... Now, my main concern is dealing with this damned election. The amount of hate directed at Pres Bush is infuriating. My friends can't understand my support of the Pres. & the WoT. I guess if Condi and Colin are considered Uncle Toms by the Dems, then I'm an Aunt Mary?

432 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:47:01am

#425 mickthemick: Besides the economy, the fact that Kerry would rather identify himself as an educational president, while ignoring the fact that he would have Afghanistan, Iraq, and the whole Islamic fundy fight going on during his watch, is just mind boggling for me. Education president taking priority over the WOT! The federal government is a minor player on the public education scene. Is Kerry also going to be our nutrition president, and our highway safety president? Sure, those are important, but they are not for the president to spend his time on/define himself by - our national security should be his priority, but obviously it's not, and from polls it's not for far too many Americans.

/rant

PS Nice to be back online - a squirrel or maybe a possum ate through my TV/internet cable.

433 andthenblammo!  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:47:25am

#430 andrew:

I'm with you; what the hell kept the Red Threat from becoming the Red Death, except for defense dollars?

434 Renna  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:50:14am

Zack #429

Defense budgets aimed at the Red Threat were, therefore, mostly wasted tax dollars.

Because they are not a threat now, as argued, dollars spent when they were a threat were wasted? They are not less of a threat because of those dollars.

435 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:51:48am

#392 Thom - didn't have to go to the link; my contempt for Kerry can't be less than yours; but he's still not a traitor and I believe it behooves us all to be somewhat more careful in our choice of words (well, ok, where Kerry'ss concerned, expletives!) than was shown by Kevin P. Disagreeing, STRONGLY with someone doesn't mean that they are Satan incarnate.
#399 mickthemick - as I've posted before, I too am a Vietnam combat vet. I came back in 1970 totally opposed to the war, because I thought we (that is to say, the US government) weren't trying to win the war and that the South Vietnamese weren't, frankly, all that interested in winning it either and wanted to bring my comrades in arms home before any more of them became casualties of that fucking war. The posts here questioning whether or not Kerry "deserved" his medals (after all, if a there's a smoking, smoldering hole in your arm where a chunk of your arm was blown away, so what; I mean you can still walk and talk and all, so why a purple heart? PH's are only for those with VISIBLE WOUNDS) sicken me and are clearly made by those who never served in combat.
Kerry is not a traitor; to label him as such demeans and diminishes that word.
What Kerry has done SINCE the war is what disturbs me (and his categorization of his former brothers in arms as "routine" or casual perpetrators of atrocities makes me want to both puke and then beat the living shit out of him). Moreover, it's more than just unseemly to jump on his sorry ass for what he did or didn't do during Vietnam; it's self defeating (as is all the horseshit about GWB and the Air National Guard) because it detracts from ALL he's done since then that makes him unqualified to be the leader of the free world.
I challenge ANYONE to tell me one thing Kerry's done since he's been in the Senate that could arguably stand in his favor as a leader or even an intelligent member of Congress. Just one.

436 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:52:13am

How soon people forget the Cold War.

437 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:57:21am

#435 realwest

I challenge ANYONE to tell me one thing Kerry's done since he's been in the Senate that could arguably stand in his favor as a leader or even an intelligent member of Congress. Just one.

That's a great question, with no real answer that I've come upon while following his campaign. On the other hand, a decided majority of those polled think he will do better on the economy than Bush, although I doubt many could tell you why they feel that way. Maybe it's because he says he wants to raise taxes on "the rich".

438 The Dread Pirate Gryphon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:58:01am

#433 andthenblammo & #434 Renna:

I think Zacks point was that the culture of the Soviet Union was at least life-oriented enough to be concerned about MAD - whether or not military expenditures were effective, they weren't the only thing keeping the Bear from our door.

The splodeydopes are another story - it makes absolutely no difference to them that we might destroy them and everything they care about. They want our death or our submission, and they are willing to expend millions of lives - theirs or ours, it makes no difference to them - to that end.

439 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:01:16pm

Hey, Cavuto just said on his comments what I posited in my #419 - that Bush has perhaps done too well in the WOT to date, so that people are getting too blase about terrorism, and it may hurt him politically.

440 parking_god  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:02:53pm

#415 papajoe:

The Su-37, in the wrong hands, could put up a fight:

a couple of links via a shameless plug of my own blog

Or you can go direct to what my blog entry links to:

basic info
Unbelievable flight video

441 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:06:17pm

realwest #435 - I agree. Funny, before 9-11, I probably would have agreed with Kerry. That day, I finally understood that terrorists wouldn't hesitate to use any kind of weapon against us. I can't understand how the presumed Dem. pres. candidate could not have also awakened. Where are the Sam Nunns of the party?

442 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:07:42pm

#436 RIP Ford - the cold war? What are you talking about (obviously just kidding). Short term memory loss is in fact a MAJOR problem with the electorate.
Incidentally, you and I have "traded" comments before (I recall thanking you for your link to the shootout at Adobe Walls) but I don't know if I've told you how much I admire your nic. The real, or original RIP Ford was some kinda guy!!

443 Renna  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:10:32pm

Dread Pirate, I agree that the Russians were sane enough that MAD worked and that is not the case with those we deal with now, but re-reading Zack's post and I still don't think that's what he meant.
I've seen too much of those that think that because they fell, they must not have been that big of a deal to begin with. And that 1989 just happened and had nothing to do with RWR.

444 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:10:40pm

Since Baldy brings it up, Andrew Sullivan continues his rant:

Rove has now succeeded in ensuring that almost no gay people will vote for or support the Republican party for a generation.

Yeah, Andy, we're all a one-issue monolith who support judicial activism as long as it benefits us.

Has it occurred to AS, or anyone else for that matter, why is a constitutional amendment a big deal when judges and activists don't intend to follow the law anyway?

445 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:14:14pm

#442 realwest

Very cool man, I appreciate it. The Texas Rangers were some bad mo-fos. I'll probably have to change the nic to Captain Jack Hays if Gerold Ford dies. I have nothing against the man, too much at least, but the confusion would be a mess. I forgot, where do you live?

446 Throbert McGee  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:16:40pm
#418 Thom:
I fail to see the humor in judges legislating from the bench...

And I fail to see judges "legislating from the bench."

The decisions in Massachusetts, Vermont, and Hawaii would not had happened if private citizens had not pursued the cases up to the level of the state supreme courts, as was their right. Hence my remark about a failure of this proposed Constitutional amendment being a victory for the plaintiffs in these cases, not a victory for the "judicial activist" bogeymen that right-wingers like to conjure out of the air when a court decision isn't to their liking.

To be blunt, I believe that "Judicial Activism!" is more or less the dextro-idiotarian equivalent of "Waaaaah, sexistracisthomophobe!" But I welcome counterexamples.

447 Dirk Diggler  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:18:27pm

I have a question for our same sex oriented LGF crowd. What would be your guess as to how many in the gay community actually want gay "marriage"? As opposed to civil unions or just plain old monogamy?

448 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:23:34pm

Way late to the thread, again.

OR, about the F-22. It really isn't about the aircraft with our current fleet. It's about the methods. Take the F-35 for example. It is no more manuverable than the F-16 and it is only slightly faster.

The issue is our integrated method of fighting. We use all of our resources at the same time.

I for one (not a pilot) wouldn't feel too bad if the F-22 is scrapped. Upgrade the current fleet again for a lesser price. It's been proven over and over that you can't beat the US when we decide to fight. We only get defeated by the L³.

Can you say B-52?

449 papijoe  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:23:36pm

#440 parking_god

The video was pretty intense. Never seen that stall-flip move. I wonder if it would really work in a dogfight?

450 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:23:37pm

#446 Throbert McGee - Not a lawyer, so I can't argue the law, but I think many (including enough on the SCOTUS) believed the Florida Supreme Court engaged in a true case of judicial activism following the 2000 election, with their seeming to rewrite Florida's voting laws. Maybe that's an example you'll accept?

451 gymnast  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:24:04pm

#429, Zach. Feeling a bit naive today? Kinda like if we had only realized that the reds were just like us and all it took to defeat them was a little leadership failure on their part. Oh the money we could have saved if we had just said "come on in and share your vision of the world with us. Kinda makes you want to have gone on a Gulag camping trip while you still had the opportunity.

452 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:25:08pm

#448 reaganite

Can you say B-52?

Excellent point.

453 Thom  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:25:17pm

#446 Throbert McGee

And I fail to see judges "legislating from the bench."

LOL. Okaaaaaayyy ....

To be blunt, I believe that "Judicial Activism!" is more or less the dextro-idiotarian equivalent of "Waaaaah, sexistracisthomophobe!"

To be blunter, F.U.

454 mickthemick  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:27:16pm

#435 realwest

What Kerry has done SINCE the war is what disturbs me (and his categorization of his former brothers in arms as "routine" or casual perpetrators of atrocities makes me want to both puke and then beat the living shit out of him).

That was my point. I don't question Kerry's war record, and I don't doubt that he deserved the medals he received. That's was my point in post #399-I think Kerry was a traitor to his fellow servicemen, but I'm reluctant to call him a traitor to the country. As I previously indicated, I think his anti-war screeds (then, and now) were all for his personal political gain, and little else. John Kerry stands for nothing but himself, IMO, and is a crap weasel for it.

455 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:28:08pm

#424 Inside the Whale

Woodruff is a joke. She should have conducted that interview in a double bed. If Johnny-boy wants to be a man about it, he might try tackling Kerry's unanswered questions

Kerry testified under oath before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 that Americans in Vietnam had "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war."

Set aside the horrific and defamatory nature of these accusations and ask this: Did he witness these atrocities? Did he try to stop them? If not, was he held accountable for dereliction of duty? If he knows the perpetrators, did he ever see that they were brought to justice? If not, why?

I'd like to see Russert grill him on some of these.

456 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:29:03pm

#441 Baldy,

I'm late,...I'm late, but I wanted you to know you'll be in prayers...take care and stay healthy. Pig out if ya think you need too!!!
(on healthly food that is)


F22 v F35,

This is kind of my take. With the advent of stealth cruise missiles, an air superiority fighter may be a thing of the past. In fact we don’t have to design a fighter if air-to-air missiles can do the same from a greater distance. Consider:

1st case: You have enough cruise missiles and other munitions that can take out both airfields (an aircraft launching capability) and the enemy air defense systems, then you’ve gained air superiority before the battle is met.

2nd case: You have precision air-to-air missiles that can be carried by airframes (older ones even) that can be equipped with a stealth capability. The air battle is won from a distance without the pilot ever seeing his prey. This is almost as it is today.

Same argument as the Comanche, why put a piloted vehicle forward at risk, when we can develop the technology to do the above.

What’s left is an airframe that can carry various and many munitions forward to assist the ground fight and I think that’s the logic behind the JSF

My $0.02

457 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:29:16pm

#437 Doug in Va - yeah, I know. I'm so far away from rich, I couldn't even spell it if you spotted me the r i c !!
It's a major problem.
The majority of the world's population has to worry and be concerned about basic survival and dignity. Because we have so much (albeit truly earned) we can forget from time to time, that hundreds of thousands of Americans have had to make the ultimate sacrifice and millions of other Americans have had to sacrifice almost as much to obtain, preserve and protect what we have so that we are therefore "free" to focus on bullshit. Not to say that taxes are bullshit, you understand(!).
Our freedoms of speech, press, assembly, worship (or not to worship) which I value so dearly, are rarely if ever dots on the radar screen of most human beings.
I just wish most Americans sufficiently appreciated what we have and would remember the costs of having it that they would pay a LITTLE less attention to the "money" issues and a lot more to the issue of freedom.
I can't imagine how horrific the world would be without America - either because we get wiped out in a nucluear conflagration or we so restrict and amend our liberties in an effort to "maintain" them that we are no longer what we truly are:
A society whose basic tenents are: that the governed should do the governing; that those who do the fighting, killing and dying should determine whether or not we go to war; to speak our minds and associate with others with whom we choose to associate and that where we are free to worship the god of our choice (including none at all) and so is everyone else.

458 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:30:23pm

#452 RIP Ford
My whole point is our current fighters can outfly the pilots in them. IMHO, the F-22 only adds super cruise to the mix.

Take the electronics/engines from the F-22, pop them into an F-15, you have a fighter that can fly for 40+ years.

BTW, the F-22 is awesome, I just don't see the need.

As the US and the IDF have proven over and over, it's not the crate, it's the pilot flying it.

459 Joshua Scholar  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:31:12pm

#240 zulubaby (and all the other Bush worry posts)

I'm very worried... I think Bush is too inarticulate to defend his ideas. If America understands what's going on and doesn't need to be convinced then it would have been fine but the man is no Tony Blair. He can't explain our position in the world in a way that will convince a single non-believer...

Of course it doesn't help my optimism that I live in San Francisco. Kerry just blew through town with Bill Clinton. I got a message on my answering machine inviting me to see that... I imagine it must have been like that scene from the "Life of Brian":

REG: 'Morning, Saviour.
WOMAN: Lay Your hands on me. Quick!
FRANCIS: Now, don't jostle the Chosen One, please. REG: Don't push that baby in the Saviour's face. You've got till later.
GREGORY: I say. I say, could He just see my wife? She has a headache.
REG: She'll have to wait, I'm afraid.
GREGORY: It's very bad, and we've got a luncheon appointment.
REG: Look, the lepers are queuing.
...
REG: And keep the noise down, please! Those possessed by devils, try and keep them under control a bit, can't you? All right. Now, those with gifts come forward, please. Incurables, you'll just have to wait for a few minutes.

460 johnCV  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:35:52pm

405 TheRealTravis

OK, Just checking........

461 gymnast  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:39:44pm

AWACS- The key to air superority. Drones guided from a next generation "AWACS" the future of airpower, at least a good part of it.

462 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:43:32pm

#458 reaganite

BTW, the F-22 is awesome, I just don't see the need.

I agree. I've sort of flip-flopped on my position, a Kerry if you will.

IMHO, the F-22 only adds super cruise to the mix.

A very cool technology, that will find it's way onto older airframes, I'm sure.

463 johnCV  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:44:12pm

OT

Just listening to the news. Kennedy just called GWB "a bigot who is trying to divide this country for cynical political reasons".

This will be the next assault on Bush from the left (although they have the same position).

Somebody should remove the "no smoking or open flames" signs from around kennedy. That way the bilious bag of shit fumes would go up in flames.

464 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:45:10pm

#445 RIP Ford - thanks. I live and work in New York City. My dad spent most of his teen years living in Fort Huachuca, Arizona and graduated from Tombstone High School. My dad actually talked to some old timers who were there at the gunfight of the OK Corral (of course, he was only about 10 at the time!).
Probably part of the reason I love and (immodestly) am something of an Old West or Wild West amature historian.
If you hit my name it'll take you to my blog (not much of a blog, you understand, I'm creating it and learning as I go - real men don't need instructions!) where I posted an article on the superbowl which is really about my Dad.
You live in Texas, I presume?

465 Inside the Whale  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:47:11pm

#451 gymnast

Kinda makes you want to have gone on a Gulag camping trip while you still had the opportunity.

From the NYT:

“NORILSK, Russia — The bones appear each June, when the hard Arctic winter breaks at last and the melting snows wash them from the site of what some people here — but certainly not many — call this city's Golgotha.

“The bones are the remains of thousands of prisoners sent to the camps in this frozen island of the Gulag Archipelago. To this day, no one knows exactly how many labored here in penal servitude. To this day, no one knows exactly how many died.”

466 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:49:17pm

#462 RIP Ford

A very cool technology, that will find it's way onto older airframes, I'm sure.

They're talking about re-engining the B-52 to keep it flying another 20 years. I have no doubt we'll have F-14s and F-15s with super cruise. As #461 gymnast pointed out, AWACS are the answer along with whoever posted about ACAVs and other unmanned vehicles.

You'd be amazed at what is still classified...

467 logger phd  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:51:51pm

Personally, I think ersatz trolling is a waste of time for all involved, including readers who are not interested in commenting. That energy would be better spent sabotaging LLL message boards --why not direct that firepower outward and make a beachhead????

468 Q  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:52:08pm

Re: "Bush worry"

There is an unsettling posibility that Bush's win in '04 will have an unintended consequence of paving the way for Hillary in '08. Namely, Boy George may fuck up the internal matters (and perhaps some of the external ones as well -- if he keeps fellating the Saudi oil spigots) so thoroughly in those 4 years that 1600 Pennsylvania will be the Crypto-Sapphic One's for the taking.

Unless she runs against McCain or someone of his stature. Perhaps.

469 scaramouche  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:58:18pm

Given the combined Kerry/Heinz fortune, there's something very amusing about this. (The sum total of Kerry's advice on how to get ahead in life: "Marry well, then marry well again.")

470 hcq  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:59:04pm

#447 Dirk Diggler

Can't speak for the rest of the same-sex crowd, but as committed as my (also female) partner and I are to each other, we have no desire to have the state insert itself into our domestic arrangement; IMO it's got no business there. If we need to make a covenant with anybody other than each other regarding our relationship, it'll be with Somebody Who Counts, and I don't mean City Hall.

471 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 12:59:54pm

#466 reaganite - Unless there's been a change I'm unaware of, the F-14 is on the way out, with the USN using the F-18 only in the strike/fight role until new planes come along.

472 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:05:03pm

#471 Doug in VA

Unless there's been a change I'm unaware of, the F-14 is on the way out, with the USN using the F-18 only in the strike/fight role until new planes come along.

Maybe I overstepped, but the F-15 was on its way out with talk of the F-22. I honestly can't see the Navy dropping the F-14, it's their showcase fighter! The movie Top Gun forever etched the F-14 into America's mind.

Way off topic, when my son was a little boy, I built a 1:48 scale model of the F-14 in IIAF colors. The Iranians suck, but their F-14s were sure pretty.

473 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:07:26pm

#464 realwest

The blog is pretty sharp, nicely done.
Texas history is main interest, although, most aspects of life beyond the Mississippi still fascinate me. I thought about getting my masters in the subject, but can't justify the price versus payoff for grad school. I was raised by my Chicagoan parents in San Antonio, and have led a pretty urban life, all 27 years of it. So, I don't know where I got this kick from...

A good read:
"Lone Star'' by T.R. Fehrenbach

474 brianstien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:09:18pm

469 scaramouche

The sum total of Kerry's advice on how to get ahead in life: "Marry well, then marry well again."

Or, as Ann Coulter has it

As long as we're going to get self-righteous, why is John Kerry allowed to have an opinion about taxes? He has spent his entire life marrying a succession of heiresses and living off the fortunes amassed by other men. It must be the luck of the pseudo-Irish. How can Kerry claim to understand the anguish of people who pay high taxes? What does this pompous, whining, morally superior, mincing habitue of Boston drawing rooms know about confiscatory taxes on hard-earned money? (Not that his nuptial path to wealth is not also hard-earned.)

Ouch.

475 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:11:17pm

Hm, two very, very different things to respond to--judicial activism, and air superiority. But they're related, in a holistic sort of way. I guess.

The decisions in Massachusetts, Vermont, and Hawaii would not had happened if private citizens had not pursued the cases up to the level of the state supreme courts, as was their right. Hence my remark about a failure of this proposed Constitutional amendment being a victory for the plaintiffs in these cases, not a victory for the "judicial activist" bogeymen

I'm not quite sure I understand you. Sure, it's true that the Mass, etc. decisions were judges ruling on the lawsuits of private plaintiffs. But I think you're reading the term "judicial activism" too literally. It doesn't refer to a judge purporting to issue decrees, when not facing any actual civil or criminal case. It refers to a judge or judges reading things into existing law that, to put it mildly, the original drafters of the law might find surprising. An example would be Roe v. Wade. Now, personally, I'm mildly on the pro-choice side (and pleeeeasse, let's not turn this into an abortion thread), but as a lawyer, when I read that decision, I say; this is nuts. The esteemed justices suddenly found these new rights in the "penumbras and emanations" of the existing Bill of Rights; somehow, there was this "right to privacy" that everyone had failed to notice for almost 200 years. That's "judicial activism".

reaganite and others re: F-22: Here's what concerns me. While it's true that the more important element, as reaganite says, is how the US armed forces fight as an integrated whole, at some point you've got pilots up there going mano a mano with other fighter jocks. Or, at least, such a credible threat that "we're unbeatable" that the other fighters just don't take to the air. The US has enjoyed a pretty long holiday from having to worry seriously about having anything other than pure air dominance. But with weapons like the Su-37 starting to hit the inventories of the bad guys, I don't want to take this for granted. I don't agree, reaganite, that the only thing the F-22 adds is speed--it also adds STEALTH, which, as I understand, is almost entirely missing from the F-14, 15, 16, 17.

It's true that having AWACS up in the air, plus airborne refueling, etc., provides an enormous edge. But you have to be able to keep these big, slow AWACS and KC-130 planes from being shot down.

That's my opinion, and given that I'm a lawyer AND I used to build model airplanes as a kid, I think you'll all have to agree I'm the leading LGF expert on the subject...

476 Jack Frost  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:12:45pm

#447

how many in the gay community actually want gay "marriage"? As opposed to civil unions or just plain old monogamy?


Thats interesting because I don't know many gay people who would actually want to be married. As someone of that "same-sex oriented" community, I believe marriage, being a religious union, has little to do with gays. This crisis ( if thats what it is) is more about gays seeking the approval of the 'rest' of the American public. That being said, I think it is a mistake of monumental proportions to amend the constitution in this way. Bush is using those that are afraid of the concept of homosexuality to bolster his support - fear motivates. It will be a sad day in American history.

477 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:13:23pm

#472 reaganite - The F-14 is an iconic airplane, that's for sure. You may know all this, but it's big and not a great manueverer - designed as a standoff fleet protection asset using an advanced air to air radar and missile system called the Phoenix. It originally had no air-ground capability, which was only added at the end of the cold war when we weren't as worried about the Ruskies. The F-18, OTOH, was designed with air-ground capability and is more valuable in that vein.

BTW, I was a flight instructor in the late '70s and we were training a few of the Shah's guys when the Iranian revolution happened. We actually kept flying them for a while (which had us wondering why) until higher ups put a stop to it. They were not very good, and yet they were the cream of their crop.

478 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:15:56pm

Whoops, the first part of my post #475 was directed to Throbert in #446.

The second part was directed to reaganite and the other jet geeks (and I mean that in a good way), no one post in particular.

479 Colt  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:16:25pm

#402 Occasional Reader

Sounds like a (wise) step to ensure we all know you're a guy :-)

480 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:17:07pm

Correction no. 2; I meant F... -18, not -17.

481 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:18:06pm
I have a question for our same sex oriented LGF crowd. What would be your guess as to how many in the gay community actually want gay "marriage"? As opposed to civil unions or just plain old monogamy?

I swear I didn't get out of bed this morning vowing to piss off as many people as possible, but anyway... I look at the people doing it in SFO and I think most of them just want to stick a middle finger in the face of the "normals." From a civil rights perspective, there's nothing you get as a married person that you can't get as a gay person in a same-sex relationship.

I think a lot of gay people will embrace it as long as it's seen as chic, but not as many will stick with it through the long haul. There's a lot of insecurity in the gay world, and I think a lot of people see marriage as a badge of normalcy that will force society to accept them.

482 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:18:11pm

Re: Kerry's chance of winning. I haven't a clue. I thought Mondale was going to win. I wish the Dems were better on defense issues. It really is not good to have only one party support a muscular America. Someday, the Dems will be in the WH again, and they need to shape up.

#456 Thank you. I weigh 160 lbs, 6'1''. I eat constantly, lost about 20 lbs. in 2002, had a turn for the worse, mentally & physically, better now, but the weight stayed off.

483 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:18:28pm

#475 Occasional Reader

But they're related, in a holistic sort of way.

LOL, I never quite thought of it that way...

But you have to be able to keep these big, slow AWACS and KC-130 planes from being shot down.

OR, we fight under an integrated umbrella. The AWACS and the refuelers (let's not forget the KC-135s) are either far from the battle front, or in a massive SAM/Fighter belt. The SU-35/37 varients while on paper and video, are really impressive, they are no match for our system. When our enemies match our overall capabilities, then I'll worry. But then again, our enemies are the people who won't allow their militaries the freedom to think on the fly.

I'm not worried.

484 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:20:04pm

#479 Colt:

Sounds like a (wise) step to ensure we all know you're a guy :-)

Not to mention straight, dammit! I just think the F-22 is fabulous! I mean, um, kick-ass!

485 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:21:24pm

#477 Doug in VA

The F-14 is an iconic airplane, that's for sure. You may know all this, but it's big and not a great manueverer - designed as a standoff fleet protection asset using an advanced air to air radar and missile system called the Phoenix.

Yeah, I knew that, but, it's still the second best air superiority fighter in the world. The idea is to not give your enemy a chance to shoot, kill them before they know you are there!

486 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:21:42pm

V the K - If it helps today's pinata feel any better, I chuckled a long time over your dagnabbit post the other day about missing the troll shoot.

487 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:21:44pm

#456 John Gibbon - Sorry, forgot to address you properly.

488 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:23:52pm

#485 reaganite - As the current commercial says, you got that right!

489 reaganite  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:25:34pm

Hey, I'm starving, I have to go cook dinner (and finish packing), I'll be back later.

490 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:29:50pm

#475 Occasional Reader...

That's my opinion, and given that I'm a lawyer AND I used to build model airplanes as a kid, I think you'll all have to agree I'm the leading LGF expert on the subject...

Whooa, stand back all!! :)

I can just see your desk at night model glue smeared all over your briefs and summaries...

"Case what case, I've got an F14 to finish here"

Seriously, what's your opinion of that TV show 'JAG' From a military standpoint I find it almost unbearable to watch...My BS meter peaks!

491 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:30:44pm

#481 V the K:

From a civil rights perspective, there's nothing you get as a married person that you can't get as a gay person in a same-sex relationship.

From a "civil rights" perspective, no; but from a "legal rights" perspective, there are of course a number of things--right to intestate inheritence, right to communal property, right to make medical decisions on partner's behalf, etc. As a sorta kinda libertarian, I have trouble with the idea that we shouldn't allow gays the option to buy into this particular bundle of legal rights that we call "marriage". Whether churches want to allow it, that's another question. One problem with this whole debate is the nomenclature--the state doesn't "sanctify" marriage, it confers legal rights. The sanctity, or lack thereof, is conferred by entirely different institutions, and of course the married persons themselves.

[whiplash-inducing change of subject]

reaganite #485:

The SU-35/37 varients while on paper and video, are really impressive, they are no match for our system.

I find them rather frighteningly impressive, and it makes me deeply uneasy to think of our guys still using 30 year-old airframes. I also wonder--who the heck is paying for all the R&D that goes into the Sukhois and MiGs? The Russkies are supposed to be broke!

When our enemies match our overall capabilities, then I'll worry.

I don't want to get anywhere near to that point.

492 RIP Ford  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:31:07pm

#484 Occasional Reader

I just think the F-22 is fabulous! I mean, um, kick-ass!

LOL

#481 V the K

I swear I didn't get out of bed this morning vowing to piss off as many people as possible, but anyway

No worries, I'm sure that most people gave you the benefit of the doubt. It happens to everyone here. Sooner or later, you are going to piss someone off. What the hay, it's only the internet.

493 Occasional Reader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:33:56pm

#490 John Gibbon:

I can just see your desk at night model glue smeared all over your briefs

Uh, dude, I think I just made it clear that I'm straight, okay?

(kidding)

Seriously, what's your opinion of that TV show 'JAG'

Oh, I'm sure it's incredibly realistic... I have no doubt whatsoever that Navy lawyers are constantly getting into firefights with terrorists and so forth!

494 ploome  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:37:41pm

I haven't been pissed off yet, today

495 Zack  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:37:58pm

You got my meaning exactly, Dread Pirate (#438). Moreover, we need wiser and more thrifty use of tax dollars today.

So far, the Cold Warriors appear to be as in denial of the jihadi threat as they were eager to overstate the Red Menace. The Commissars were a bunch of corrupt greedy bureaucrats who were as afraid of war as we were. Today's monsters are for real. Bush spouts PC pablum about the RoP™, then rushes to the bathroom to clean out his Depends™ because he knows it's only a matter of time before the mullahs follow through on their mushroom cloud fantasies.

We'd be better off admitting our past mistakes (continued denial only harms our credibility) while we send Special Forces and CIA teams to wipe out the mushroom spores spread by Mr Khan. Missle defense systems will not work against Hizbollah foot soldiers with suitcase nukes.

496 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:43:54pm

#94 zulubaby re: mutilation in DR Congo. Oh that's horrific.

497 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:44:32pm

492 RIP Ford 2/24/2004 03:31PM PST

No worries, I'm sure that most people gave you the benefit of the doubt. It happens to everyone here. Sooner or later, you are going to piss someone off. What the hay, it's only the internet.

...Speaking of, Anybody seen Zulubaby lately?, Occasional Reader and I have some groveling to do.

#493 Occasional Reader

LOL, No no, not those briefs....

I've worked closely with an Army SJA. His workload was like:

Education (law of land warfare, etc): 40%
Wills: 40%
Commander's legal actions: 15%
Skiing: 5%

498 Jack Frost  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:45:58pm

#481

There's a lot of insecurity in the gay world, and I think a lot of people see marriage as a badge of normalcy that will force society to accept them.

There's a lot of insecurity on both sides of the fence. Again, I don't necessarily support the gay marriage position, but there is no real intellectually sound reason for the amendment. Allowing gays to be married will not change anything, as much as Bush believes to the contrary.

499 Athos  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 1:57:48pm

#458 Reganite

The Raptor (F22) has near-stealth in addition to supercruise and upgraded avionics. I don't think that even with the engines moved to the F15 platform, the Eagle could achieve supercruise.

I agree with your comments on the BUFF, but I also think that this is a rare platform. I would love to see the Navy keep the Tomcat, but I would have to guess that airframe fatigue would be a major issue given the forces involved on carrier landings. Adding the ability to pound mud was a big way to extend the usefulness of the 14. I think the plan is to maintain the 14D until the JSF naval variant is ready.

My concern is more on the JSF. They are just trying to do too much with the airframe - USAF / USN variants, STOL capabilities, etc to make it a likely success. I think that a single USAF / USN air supremacy platform would be enough for now - the Eagle and Tomcat - and the real need is for ground pounders. I would like to see the Raptor survive, and ask the questions on the JSF. Can it do the close support missions or are we leaving those to the gunships, choppers, and drones?

500 MACHAL  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:07:46pm

#475 Probably a typo, but as our resident Air Warfare Specialist, you should realise that the F-17 didn't make it past the YF-17, and it's the F-18 that you meant.....

And also, training is the key. I don't care how many bad guys get SU-37's if they can't fly them properly and their tactics suck.

But I agree with you mostly.

501 MACHAL  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:13:53pm

WOW! Things are moving fast today! Legacy airframes such as the F-14 are way too maintenance intensive to be of too much more use. I love that plane though, and not as bad at ACT as some would think, given its large size.

But we ARE lucky that most of the guys we face can't tell their arse from their elbow, in relative terms.

502 David All  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:19:22pm

Echoing Occasional Reader #493 - Whenever any Navy Jag Officers come by my work place - The Pentagon Library, we ask them how many times have they saved the world this year!
Also make comments to Army & Air Force Jag folks like don't they wish they get to save the world like the Navy Jag does!

OT: An excellent column in today's (Tuesday's) New York Times op-ed page by Michael Oren (author of Six Days of War) entittled: "Life Among the Bombs" and is about how Israel lives with the sucide terrorists. It is very insightful. Find it(I think) at [Link: www.newyorktimes.com...]

503 SoCalJustice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:20:05pm

(#498) Jack Frost

but there is no real intellectually sound reason for the amendment.

Just the reason that Bush hopes it will make certain people forget his illegal immigration/asylum program, his fiscally irresponsible budget and his signing of the BCRA.

So electorally speaking, at least Karl Rove thinks it's intellectually sound.

(#493) OR

#490 John Gibbon:
Seriously, what's your opinion of that TV show 'JAG'

Oh, I'm sure it's incredibly realistic... I have no doubt whatsoever that Navy lawyers are constantly getting into firefights with terrorists and so forth!

And no doubt, in reality, most Lt. Colonels look like Maxim models.

504 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:21:11pm

Poitiers-Lepanto (#70)

Your post focused a number of theretofore disjointed thoughts I was having, not just about Kerry, but as to whole paradigm that would seem to provide that pretty much any Democrat candidate for president since Johnson, to be taken seriously during the primaries and (somewhat less) the general election campaign, must maintain a completely orthodox (now defined as idiotarian) antiwar position. Clinton appears to be the major single exception, although for the life of me I can't remember a single thing Al Gore claimed to stand for in 2000 except for a "lockbox," whatever he meant by that.

In other words, Michael Dukakis was not viewed as ridiculous because he looked like Alfred E. Neuman, Idiot, under that helmet and in that tank hatch, he was viewed as ridiculous because he was Michael Dukakis, Democrat, under that helmet and in that tank hatch. The juxtaposition was simply ridiculous, and everyone (even Democrats) knew it.

I was in high school and started college in the late 60s. I remember the "Mobe" and (I recollect, anyway) its watchword slogan "bring the war home." I guess this tactic proved out in the longer term, as we didn't 'lose" the war in Viet Nam near so much as we decided, as a country, that we really just didn't, after all, have stomach enough to see things through. We did what George Aiken recommended (albeit without saying we won) and went home. The idiots who now contend that our military was "beaten" in Viet Nam have no clue what our forces, unleashed (and even without nuclear weapons), would have done to the Viet Cong had we allowed such a thing. We "stopped the bombing" and left alone the "sanctuaries" for political reasons, not because those tactics weren't working.

McCarthy (remember Clean Gene? sort like Howard Dean, although not openly insane), Bobby Kennedy, McGovern, Ted Kennedy, Mondale and Dukakis (a common thread between them was that Reagan was this cowboy, this gunslinger, this B-film war hero who was going to pull western civ down around our ears if we didn't see the light and elect a Man From The Party Of Peace) and now all the serious contendas (and some not so serious, eh Mr. Sharpton, Mr. Kucinich?) this primary season. I don't know how Joe Leiberman sleeps at night given his party bedfellows (although, to the extent he does, he should probably sleep with his back to the wall at all times and with a tube of K-Y in the pocket of his 'jammies Just In Case).

Coming up on 40 years later, I finally understand what "bringing the war home" means. The Democrat party mainstream, by and large, has to oppose any war abroad because it interferes with the class war that they must keep simmering away here at home. It's why they downplay the threat of terrorism. Any threat or cause that would serve to unite the people of this country against a common foe destroys coming up on 80 years worth of Democrat efforts to divide and fracture this nation into so many interest groups, each with a "pet" entitlement that only the continued election of Democrats can preserve.

There are good people who are Democrats. Somewhere. Maybe. The problem with them is that their party's raison d'être is wholly corrupt and bankrupt.

Worse, it could be the death of us all...


D. Edgren

505 Atomic Redneck, reaganite's cheerleader  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:24:10pm

#498 Jack Frost,

Maybe gay marriage won't change anything. Maybe it will be the last straw of the massive undercuts (Cool mixed metaphor, right) society has inflicted on the institution of marriage that will destroy marriage completely as a respected institution. The damage done to the black community in the last 20-30 years by the Great Society law's bias against marriage should provide adequate evidence why marriage is important to the success of children, families, and society.

The problem that I have is that we just don't know. And, there's no way to find out without trying it. If we try it, all the king's horses and all the king's men can't put it back again.

I need a whole lot of convincing why modern society, based on 30 years of opinion as to the right way to run things, should change rules that have worked for many thousands of years.

506 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:25:50pm
V the K - If it helps today's pinata feel any better, I chuckled a long time over your dagnabbit post the other day about missing the troll shoot.

Actually, yes, that does help. My day outside LGF has been as craptacular as my day inside LGF, so thanks. I'd give you a smiley if they weren't so freakin' gay.

from a "legal rights" perspective, there are of course a number of things--right to intestate inheritence, right to communal property, right to make medical decisions on partner's behalf, etc.

I think all of those things are available through other legal channels... wills, contracts, power of attorney, and such. At the end of the day, if two people are going to stay together, they don't need the government's permission. And if two people aren't going to stay together, a piece of paper with a bureaucrat's stamp on it won't make any difference either.

I'd much prefer a Judicial Restraint Amendment to the FMA, but then I also would have preferred the issue not be forced on the public by activists and the courts in the first place.

507 evariste  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:28:18pm

#506 V the K-hey! Smileys are fabulous :-)
Haven't read the thread, just wanted to say that.

508 MACHAL  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:28:41pm

#499 You raise a good point re: mud moving. It seems with the cancellation of the Commanche we're going down the UCAV path, which is one of Rummy's favorites.

509 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:36:14pm

#503 SCJ

Just the reason that Bush hopes it will make certain people forget his illegal immigration/asylum program, his fiscally irresponsible budget and his signing of the BCRA.

Such a cynic! Could it be that Bush actually just believes in the sanctity of marriage?

510 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:37:09pm

#506 V the K

I'd give you a smiley if they weren't so freakin' gay.

Damnit. Now I'm going to have to put a disclaimer on 95 percent of my frickin' posts. Thank V the K. ;-)

511 SoCalJustice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:37:10pm

(#502) David All

Thanks for that link - although I followed it to the letters page only to find that the Times printed another maniacal screed by professional Pali-letter writer ANNE SELDEN ANNAB of Mechanicsburg, Pa.

Her contention: Noam Chomsky's not anti-Israel enough.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

512 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:41:56pm

#505 Atomic Redneck, reaganite's cheerleader

Sorry but WriterMom got here first. If you ask nicely she might share with you. see #306

513 SoCalJustice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:49:05pm

(#509) andrew

Such a cynic! Could it be that Bush actually just believes in the sanctity of marriage?

I have no doubt that he does, actually.

But I also believe he knows that there's next to no chance that an amendment banning gay marriage (or defining marriage as only 1 man/1 woman - however you want to phrase it) will ever pass by 2/3 of both Houses of Congress and in the legislatures of 38 states, and ultimately end up in the Constitution.

So if one believes in the sanctity of marriage, this isn't necessarily the best way to go about protecting it (because it in all likelihood won't happen) - but saying he supports the amendment, which I believe he actually does, does have the benefit of securing his base, some of whom he's pushed away.

514 Pissed  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:49:32pm

Ive signed up for the National Do Not Call list and havnt had a call from a telemarketer of any sorts for ages now.

John Kerry's campaign just called my house and asked if I would be supporting Kerry in the elections.

Am I lucky enough for this to be a violation of the Do Not Call list? Id really like to have all his wife's money. *sigh*

Actually, it was only a machine. I was speachless at first and asked it "You must be kidding...??" after my stunned moment of silence. Then realized it was only a recording.

Shame, I felt like picking a fight. Pfft.

515 andrew  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:51:10pm

#513 SCJ

Oh, since you put it that way...okay then.
BTW, have you ever thought about going into politics? ;-)

516 Atomic Redneck, More Rummy Pr0n  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:54:18pm

#512 RWC:

Hah! That's what you think. I've been quietly lurking in the background making my very own photo album of all the Rummy pictures everybody's been posting. I have Rummy screensavers for every occasion. I still want the singlet picture though.

517 logger phd  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 2:55:36pm

# 514 P'd

If I recall correctly, at the time the DNC list was established it was explicit that political parties were exempt from the provisions of the registry.

518 SoCalJustice  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:01:43pm

(#515) andrew

BTW, have you ever thought about going into politics? ;-)


Are you trying to insult me? ;-)

519 Iron Fist  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:07:05pm

#481 V the K ,

For what it's worth, here's my two cents.

One, just so we're on a level playing field, I've lived with my current girlfriend for nearly 9 years, and was married once.

That lasted for less than a year.

That's the perspective I'm coming from. I have no problem with the concept (or the reality) of gay marriage, but, OTOH 60% of the populace of California passed a law by ballot-initiative saying that marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman.

60% is a large percentage. Certainly, it would be a percentage within spitting distance of able to pass a Constitutional amendment.

And now a mayor and two judges have told them that their opinion doesn't count?!? That they should STFU, STFD, and get with the fucking program?!?

Dumb. Really dumb.

Consider a different example. I am a strong believer in the Second Amendment. I believe that it trumps local law and that most (if not all) Federal weapons laws are unconstitutional.

What do you think is going to happen to me, if I tuck a .38 revolver in my belt, and go down to my corner market? Am I significantly more dangerous because I'm carrying a revolver? No. Without getting into arguments outside the matter at hand, if I were there with the intent of harming someone, the revolver would only matter if the intended victim were armed.

But it would be dumb of me. Really dumb. 15 years ago, concealed weapons were illegal in the State of Tennessee. Today they require an easily-obtainable permit. With luck, 20 years from now we will have a concealed-carry law like Vermont's (outlaws carrying with criminal intent).

At least the gays in SF aren't looking at doing time, but what they are looking at is backlash. The President's remarks today are part of that. It will be real interesting to see how the Donks play this. 60% of California voters are against this. Think that might put California in play?

Everyone wants to look to Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement for inspiration, but not every injustice is Jim Crow. Civil disobedience had it's place during the Civil Rights movement, but even there you saw that gentle persuasion, reason, and incremental change, mostly through changing the attitudes of the people, are the only way you accomplish true acceptance.

If you want to change the culture, you do it by persuasion, not judicial fiat. My challeng to the anti-Second Amendment types has been, if you want to get rid of the Second Amendment, amend the Constitution, don’t ignore it. I've worked in campaigns, donated money, even organized protests back in 1994. I have yet to shoot one of them, though.

If you want homosexual marriage, elect the representatives that will change the laws. Hell, pass your own Constitutional amendment. Try to cramthe change down the throat of the American public at bayonet point, and you will regret it.

You don’t win acceptance by judicial fiat. Keep going that direction, and you’ll not only end up with a Constitutional amendment, you’ll piss away the gains the gay community has made in the last couple of decades towards acceptance by the general population as well. BTW, William Raspberry, one of the few liberals I can stomach, had a good article on this in the post. Remember that this is a liberal in the liberal Washington Post. Strategically, the gay community is getting ready for the starring role of Custer as they try to re-fight the Little Big Horn.

As I said out the outset, I have no problems with gay marriage, but these methods are unacceptable. If the Left (I know, not you. I've glanced at the thread since I started this, but that is the real goal of the Left) want a dictatorship of the Judiciary, then they should be forthright, and say that 60% of the voters don't count. "Democrats" against democracy.

The Constitution is silent on marriage. The laws of the State of California are not. If the gay community pushes it, I think there's a strong possibility that the Constitution won't remain silent on the issue.

I can even tell you how the homosexual community can win this issue, long term, but it doesn't involve courts, or judges, or the Constitution. Have public “weddings” that don’t have the force of law. Stay together, create a family (family doesn’t necessarily mean kids, either. My family is the two of us and our birds).

In short, demonstrate that gay marriage is really just that. No vows tie me to my girlfriend, nor her to me. Certainly, no law binds me (Tennessee doesn’t recognize common-law marriage).

But we are a family.

Show the heterosexual community that face, and 20 years from now this will be a non-issue.

520 Right Wing Conspirator  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:07:30pm

#514 pissed

Actually, it was only a machine

Wow. I thought Gore endorsed Dean. Now he is working for Kerry. That bot gets around.

521 V the K  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:09:37pm
But I also believe he knows that there's next to no chance that an amendment banning gay marriage (or defining marriage as only 1 man/1 woman - however you want to phrase it) will ever pass by 2/3 of both Houses of Congress and in the legislatures of 38 states, and ultimately end up in the Constitution.

Bush also bet that the SCOTUS would bail him out on The Repeal of Free Speech and Incumbency Protection Act Campaign Finance Reform... and we all know how well that worked out.

522 zulubaby  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:17:15pm

RWC (#520)

LOL!! I love that :-)

Has everyone kissed and made up yet? I'm scared to look.

523 drdrake  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:21:44pm

#513 socaljustice

So if one believes in the sanctity of marriage,


There's no sanctity in marriage. There's marriage and then other arrangements. Gay marriage is gay(to be childish like the gays).

524 John Gibbon  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:29:11pm
Has everyone kissed and made up yet? I'm scared to look.

Yes, I think we have, we've been talking airplanes and jets mostly...

RWC,

That was funny...I wonder how the Gore-man is going to fit into this picture.

525 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 3:36:57pm

This is totally Off TOPIC but - I thought it was funny, sad and it set off warning bells. If someone like Kerry were to make it into the Presidential chair we can add more "Super-spongers" to the STATE.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

526 levi from queens  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:00:18pm

Kerry is moving way to the right--or at least positioning hmself there--the guy from DLC on Fox at lunch said-- what's the issue, Kerry is anti-gaymarriage--, pro-war in iraq, he believes we are in a war with terrorists. I think he will come just so far as will not send the deanies to Nader. A tricky point. I could live with it,(but not vote for it) if I were sure that he would stand for America at the necessary points.

527 Scott  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:21:48pm

527th!!

528 Iron Fist  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:25:46pm

#526 levi from queens,

"way to the right"?!?

I guess it depends on where you define the center but way seems a little exaggerated, to say the least.

On that scale Trotsky was way to the right of Stalin.

And, of course, that cost Trotsky his life. Those benevolent utopian Socialists aren't people to fuck with.

They'll flat out kill you. And damn near everyone in your country. Just ask the surviving Ukrainians.

Gratuitous slaps at socialists aside, John F'n Kerry promises not to surrender to France while redifining marriage, and that is a move way to the right?

Holmes, can I interest you in some property south of Wichita, Kansas?

It is near the beach...

Way near the beach.

529 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:30:33pm

#473 RIP Ford - thanks for the compliment - sorry I took so long to reply, but work called and ever since I developed this annoying habit of eating two and sometimes even three times a day - every day - I go when called!

530 logger phd  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:40:11pm

#519 Iron Fist

BTW, William Raspberry, one of the few liberals I can stomach, had a good article on this in the post. Remember that this is a liberal in the liberal Washington Post.

Not sure if you're up on this, but I mentioned a few days ago that Raspberry will be taking a buy-out early retirement from the Post. Like you, I found him to be relatively sane, and his was one of the first columns I read as a teenager in the paper (my local one carried it).

531 Jolly Roger  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:47:15pm

reaganite & Athos, et al.:

Sorry to spoil your party, but the F-14 is already on it's way out. The RAG (VF-101 I think) is shutting down sometime in the next couple of years. I'm not precisely sure whether the last student will go through in FY06, or if the whole F-14 program will be shut down in 07, but I know that the Tomcats will be sent to the desert by around 09.

The Navy standard a/c now is the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, which are already standing up. The EA-6B is being replaced by the EF-18G "Growler" which will come online sometime in the next couple of years.

532 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:52:09pm

#519 Iron Fist - As usual, you've written a really good post. I've been married twice (first one lasted 18 months, second lasted 16 years). More than 50% of married couples get divorced.
Gays should be able to marry - why shouldn't they have as much chance to be as miserable as the rest of us?!

533 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:57:23pm

#531 Jolly Roger - Nick from the squadron of the same name? I note you used RAG rather than FRS - you're dating yourself!

534 Mardukhai  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 4:59:46pm

McGovernists -- no end to them, no end to them, no end to them.

535 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:08:12pm

#533 Doug in Va - okay, I'll bite - what's the dif between
RAG and FRS?

536 levi from queens  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:10:05pm

#528 iron fist--point well taken-- but you must not only preach tothe choir, but to the congregation and also to the world. I think Kerryis a sleazeball--but part of that is because I cannot identify the center of his beliefs. I was in law school with him--but I didn't ever speak with him in our one common year.

537 Doug in VA  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:18:31pm

#535 realwest: Old and current USN terms for the squadrons that transition aviators to a new aircraft, or to refresh them if they've been away from it for a tour.

RAG = Replacement Air Group
FRS = Fleet Replacement Squadron.

They've been squadrons (FRS's) for years, but the old RAG designation lived on in everyday use.

Not exciting, but the old term usage caught my eye.

538 Baldy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:39:49pm

Re: Gay marriage.

I'm gay, and I wonder where the heck the gay marriage issue came from. I vaguely remember national gay rights leaders saying it was the next issue after gays in the military flopped. I remember many gay people questioning why this issue, and not another. There also was much disagreement over its importance. I've known gay couples who've been together longer than I've been alive. They got together when the climate was quite repressive here (police raids on gay bars, electroshock therapy, prison sentences for sodomy etc.), relatively speaking.

539 parking_god  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:49:21pm

#531 Jolly Roger:

I'd heard about F/A-18s being used as tankers, but an EF-18? Wow. Kind of reminds me of my first job out of college, when McDonnell Douglas had this wet dream of carriers with only MDC birds on them - F/A-18s for fleet defense and A-12 variants for everything else (although they didn't mention what they'd use to fly CODs).

540 Ol' Southern Boy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:57:20pm

My two cents' worth on the fighter debates:

#456 John Gibbon: "With the advent of stealth cruise missiles, an air superiority fighter may be a thing of the past. In fact we don’t have to design a fighter if air-to-air missiles can do the same from a greater distance."

That's presuming the enemy doesn't develop decoys or some means to spoof the missile's sensors. Given the never-ending race to countering our countermeasures, and then us countering their counter-countermeasures, ad nauseum, I'd hate to bet the farm on your assumption. I prefer to have the option of a man in the cockpit -- the human brain is the ultimate data processor.

#485 Reaganite: "The SU-35/37 varients while on paper and video, are really impressive, they are no match for our system.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the AF got their hands on one and flew it against the F-15. The SU-37 beat the Eagle every time. But it had an American pilot, so training may still be our edge. Also, their IR missiles are first-rate, so if they get in close.....


#499, Athos: "I think that a single USAF / USN air supremacy [variant of the JSF] platform would be enough for now."

Sorry, no such variant. The JSF is not designed as an air superiority fighter. It's a multi-role, air to ground fighter, like the F-16. It will have some air-to-air capability, but it won't be an "air superiority" platform like the F-15.

541 Geepers  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 5:58:13pm

Nice Raptor shot

TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. -- Raptor 01-018, flown by Lt. Col. Jeffrey Harrigian, 43rd Fighter Squadron commander, is the first of 48 new F/A-22 Raptors to be assigned to Tyndall AFB's 325th Fighter Wing. One aircraft each month is expected to arrive at Tyndall following Raptor 18's arrival. The F/A-22 combines stealth, supercruise, maneuverability and many other features enabling a first look, first shot, first kill capability that will provide continued air dominance for generations to come.
(U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Michael Ammons)


Raptor & F-15 Eagle side by side
You can see why the Raptor is so stealthy.

542 Jolly Roger  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 6:34:07pm

Doug in VA, parking_god, et al.:

Actually, the nick is completely unrelated, I have this prediliction for piracy. I was a P-3 guy, now I work in the training command.

As for the RAG/FRS semantics, nobody refers to it as the "FRS" except in official communication...and I went through after it had been changed. In other words, it may be spelled "FRS" but it's prounounced "RAG".

The F/A-18 was bought to be the "jack of all trades" but is the master of none. It can't do air-to-air like an F-14, or carry the bombload of an A-6, or tank like an S-3. But that's what we bought it for, and the way things are now it's gotta do them by default. The Super Hornets make up for a lot of what the A-D models lack. The 18's got no choice but to take over the carrier-based tanking mission, as the S-3s are already going away. A fully loaded F/A-18 has to gas up almost as soon as it gets off the carrier.

The EF-18G is taking over the EA-6B Prowler's Electronic Warfare mission, as the Prowler's are long overdue for replacement.

As for the F-15 vs. Su-37 matchup: The Russians built some truly incredible aircraft. Some were even more advanced than ours. Their biggest problem is that they built the plane, but didn't provide the support.
Back in the 80s, their pilots were only averaging about 50hrs a year in flight time. Which is about enough to be able to go on a flight and land safely...as long as nothing happens during the flight. Aviation is extremely costly in both fuel and maintenance, which the Russkies couldn't afford.

543 someguy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:24:51pm

#365 zulubaby:

Aw, c'mon. I've been called lots worse things than "quietly elegant, suprisingly affordable." ;)

The article that scaramouche linked to earlier is worth a look. Here's some stuff from Sydney Schanberg's article:

Senator John Kerry, a decorated battle veteran, was courageous as a navy lieutenant in the Vietnam War. But he was not so courageous more than two decades later, when he covered up voluminous evidence that a significant number of live American prisoners — perhaps hundreds — were never acknowledged or returned after the war-ending treaty was signed in January 1973.


Here are details of a few of the specific steps Kerry took to hide evidence about these P.O.W.'s.
He gave orders to his committee staff to shred crucial intelligence documents. The shredding stopped only when some intelligence staffers staged a protest. Some wrote internal memos calling for a criminal investigation. One such memo — from John F. McCreary, a lawyer and staff intelligence analyst — reported that the committee's chief counsel, J. William Codinha, a longtime Kerry friend, "ridiculed the staff members" and said, "Who's the injured party?" When staffers cited "the 2,494 families of the unaccounted-for U.S. servicemen, among others," the McCreary memo continued, Codinha said: "Who's going to tell them? It's classified."


RTWT.

544 realwest  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:33:38pm

#543 - shit. I'm putting up the link for the Schanberg article even if Scaramouche (no, you're not the boat) posted it before, because CHARLES you need to pick up on this):[Link: www.villagevoice.com...]

545 someguy  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 9:44:53pm

#544 realwest:

Yeah, really. I thought Kerry was just a dork before (remember the photo of him on the chopper wearing those high-water pants?).

But between this and his photo op with Hanoi Hannah, I realize I was wrong. He's a total scumbag.

A quote from Lane Core (at whose blog I found this) is priceless:

How about that? Nixon comes off better in this piece than Kerry does. In The Village Voice! Who'da-ever-thunkit? (That vast right-wing conspiracy must be even vaster than we thought.)


Heh!

546 norar  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:03:21pm

Forget Vietnam. According to Tehran Times, Kerry's office sent the Mehr News Agency an email which among other things says: Disappointment with current U.S. leadership is widespread, extending not just to the corridors of power and politics, but to the man and woman on the street as well.
We believe John Kerry is the Democrat who can go toe-to-toe against the current Administration on national security and defense issues.

I am sure the ayatollahs were glad to hear that the only problem in the US relationships with them is "current US leadership" and not Iranian "leadership" themselves. Grrrrrr.... un#@(%!^&believable!

547 Gary O'Brien  Tue, Feb 24, 2004 11:34:45pm

zulubaby and others:

I have heard on this site and on talk radio (I don't watch TV) much of the same..."IF Bush wins...

I have also done a lot of thinking on the subject and come to a few conclusions:

1) Bush wins in a landslide in '04.

2) Everyone STILL thinks W is an idiot. Remember in 2000 he said he wouldn't be destroyed if he lost? He said something similar on Meet the Press. Compare that to Al Gore. His recent actions, (in re: illeagal aliens, NEA, even this "marriage amendment") are issues designed to gin up opposition on purpose. He knows his record on the WoT gets him re-elected and he's heard all of the talk about Hillary also. He's building a farm team of Republicans, like Santorum and Tancredo (sp?) to gain national attention for countering HRC in '08, with the added benefit of being "not Bush".

3)It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease,remember? Ca and NM were both Gore states in 2000.
Getting the populations of these states up in arms allows the GOP to answer with sensible counter-proposals that get the people's attention, realize the betrayal they suffered at the Dem's hands and perhaps opens a few eyes, if not minds.

4) How much has the President's "Guest Worker" propisal cost? Answer-not one cent!!!
The National Endowment for the Arts? a few million out of billions (or trillions)
The marriage amendment? Must pass through the Congress and the states before it becomes effective.

In conclusion, either Bush is an idiot or he's managed,(with the help of the liberal mass media which Lincoln never had to worry about) to fool all the people all the time?

548 JLawson  Wed, Feb 25, 2004 2:23:00am

Man, I'd never want to play poker with GWB. I'd end up owing him a third of my paycheck.

Oh, wait - in taxes I already do. (Grin) And I don't grudge it, either.

Seriously, anyone else noticed that the 'Bush is stupid' meme isn't getting near the play it used to? I think there's ample evidence that he's not - and that he's doing a great job of fooling those who can't see beyond sound-bites.

J.

549 V the K  Wed, Feb 25, 2004 2:25:03am

Sidenote: When the Air Force decided the designation for the F/A-22 was going to be 'Raptor,' the usual feminist groups had a hissy-fit because 'raptor' and 'rape' had the same latin root. One shudders to think what name they would have chosen. Somehow, I don't think the name "F/A-22 Nurturing Lesbian Co-Partner" would have intimidated our enemies very much.

These were probably the same womyn who, in the eighties, claimed that the reason nuclear missiles were phallic in shape was so that men could symbolically rape Mother Earth with them.

550 Colt  Wed, Feb 25, 2004 3:35:15am

#543 someguy

He had evidence that our guys were still alive in Vietnamese prisons, and he buried it?

And he has the fucking nerve to use his service as a platform?

Well, I guess Kerry did achieve something in his 19 years of Senate service.

551 Dirk Diggler  Wed, Feb 25, 2004 4:32:30am

My thanks to all who responded to my informal poll on the subject of gay marriage. This seems to be a largely media driven issue. Although I oppose gay marriage I can't say that I am terribly sympathetic to the social conservative position. What I object to most is the trivialization of the concept of rights. The concept of rights entails federal obligations to preserve those rights and guarantee that they will not be infringed upon. What next? A "right" to a living wage? A "right" to housing? A "right" to affordable high-quality health care? If current trends continue we will find ourselves awash in "rights" but lacking real freedoms.

552 David All  Wed, Feb 25, 2004 8:27:45am

SoCalJustice #511: Sorry about the link leading to the letters to the editor page. I did happen to read that disgusting letter myself. Upset my stomach no end! One good thing about people like her is that they make clear that no matter what the Palestinian propaganda says, the Palestinians will never be satisfied untill Israel is destroyed.
Despite that letter, I hope that you were able to get to Oren's column after that.

553 LAH  Wed, Feb 25, 2004 9:21:18pm

I'm amazed that no one on this blog is even willing to admit that Kerry might have been right about at least one thing: the Patriot Missile is not only a proven dud, but a dangerous one, killing more friendly aircraft than enemy missiles since its inception!

554 Geepers  Thu, Feb 26, 2004 8:21:30am
555 PIGLET  Thu, Feb 26, 2004 12:59:28pm
the human brain is the ultimate data processor.

THe problem with the "brain in a jar" systems is two fold, it still has g-force limitations, and the person whose brain is removed may resent it.

Oh, you mean a whole human being flying the plane...
never mind.


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