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-RetweetIslamic Right of Ownership

Fri, Feb 27, 2004 at 8:31:48 pm PST

Mufti Ebrahim Desai answers a young Muslim’s pressing question: when is it OK to rape a jihad slave woman? A question on the status of women taken as prisoners during Jihad. (Hat tip: Seppo.)

In the “Jihads” (Islamic wars) that took place, women were also, at times, taken as prisoners of war by the Muslim warriors. These women captives used to be distributed as part of the booty among the soldiers, after their return to Islamic territory. Each soldier was then entitled to have relations ONLY with the slave girl over whom he was given the RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP and NOT with those slave girls that were not in his possession. This RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP was given to him by the “Ameerul-Mu’mineen” (Head of the Islamic state.) Due to this right of ownership, it became lawful for the owner of a slave girl to have intercourse with her.

It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a woman who is not a man’s legal wife, but once Shariah makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not. It is necessary for a Muslim to be acquainted with the laws of Shariah, but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension. Allah Ta’ala has said in the Holy Quraan: “Wa maa ooteetum min al-ilm illaa qaleelan” which means, more or less, that, “You have been given a very small portion of knowledge”. Hence, if a person fails to comprehend the underlying wisdom of any law of Shariah, he cannot regard it as a fault of Shariah (Allah forbid), on the contrary, it is the fault of his own perception and lack of understanding, because no law of Shariah is contradictory to wisdom.

Nevertheless, the wisdom underlying the permission granted by Shariah to copulate with a slave woman is as follows: The LEGAL possession that a Muslim receives over a slave woman from the “Ameerul-Mu’mineen” (the Islamic Head of State) gives him legal credence to have coition with the slave woman in his possession, just as the marriage ceremony gives him legal credence to have coition with his wife. In other words, this LEGAL POSSESSION is, in effect, a SUBSTITUTE of the MARRIAGE CEREMONY. A free woman cannot be ‘possessed’, bought or sold like other possessions; therefore Shariah instituted a ‘marriage ceremony’ in which affirmation and consent takes place, which gives a man the right to copulate with her. On the other hand, a slave girl can be possessed and even bought and sold, thus, this right of possession, substituting as a marriage ceremony, entitles the owner to copulate with her. A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals; that after a formal slaughtering process, in which the words, “Bismillahi Allahu Akbar” are recited, goats, cows, etc.; become “Halaal” and lawful for consumption, whereas fish becomes “Halaal” merely through ‘possession’ which substitutes for the slaughtering.

Don’t you feel a lot better about that whole jihad thing now, knowing it’s all legal?

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109 comments

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1 Spiny Norman  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:35:55pm

Chances of information like this making it on Nightline: 0

2 RIP Ford  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:36:17pm

Oh G-d, somebody stop this ride, I want off.
I'm having a Bigel Moment. I need a drink.

3 Jheka  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:36:28pm
It is necessary for a Muslim to be acquainted with the laws of Shariah, but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension.

I think I spy an itty, bitty difference between Islamist philosophy and the Jewish approach to learning and wisdom. Just an itty bitty one, mind you.

4 Doug in VA  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:38:35pm

Paging Gloria Alred...oh, sorry she's busy with the Peterson trial. Hmm, how about Naomi Wolfe? Nope, she's too busy taking down the sexism apparatus at Yale.
Well, I guess we'll just have to let this legal possession thing slide for a while. It's their culture, anyway, and who are we in the west to judge?

/sarcasm

5 Pork Eating Whisky Drinker  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:41:34pm

What a bunch of depraved NONSENSE.

Does anyone with an IQ bigger than their shoe size understand a word of this babbling?

Dear G-d, no wonder they are all living in poverty.

My bad for criticizing their culture.

..."A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals; that after a formal slaughtering process, in which the words, “Bismillahi Allahu Akbar” are recited, goats, cows, etc.; become “Halaal”..."

Does that mean you can copulate with a camel after it's dead?

A woman for sons..
A boy for pleasure
A goat for sheer extacy...

6 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:42:42pm

And Allah Tallulah knows best...

7 Jheka  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:42:57pm

It gets better:

In other words, just as legal possession of a fish that has been fished out of the water, makes it Halaal for human consumption without the initiation of a formal slaughtering process; similarly legal possession of a slave woman made her Halaal for the purpose of coition with her owner without the initiation of a formal marriage ceremony.

In short, permission to have intercourse with a slave woman was not something barbaric or uncivilised; on the contrary, it was almost as good as a marriage ceremony. In fact, possession of a slave woman resembles a marriage ceremony in many ways and both have a lot in common with each other. One similarity is this that just as a free woman cannot have two husbands simultaneously; a slave woman cannot be used for intercourse by two owners.

Did you get all that? Women taken as slaves are like fish and slavery is much like marriage for a Muslim woman.

Yup. All cultures are equal. All religions are just the same. All "civilizations" deserve our respect. Obviously, any argument with these assertions is Haraam.

8 Baldy  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:42:59pm
...substituting as a marriage ceremony, entitles the owner to copulate with her. A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals...

Well, now that he explained it, it all makes perfect sense.

9 FH  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:43:44pm

Allah knows best...

10 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:43:47pm

...or how ever you spell it.

11 gymnast  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:43:51pm

OK Bigel, if you're quick about it, you can do Albania and Kosovo. Try to be a bit careful about the wind direction while you are at it, if you can.

12 Outsider  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:44:03pm

#3 - Jheka

Submit! do not think, Infidel!

13 rumcrook  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:44:20pm

Jheka could it be the authoritarian cog in the machine questions are bad, no matter how stupid the law is it must be followed without any thought whatsoever, borg mentality, you will be absorbed struggle is futile attitude...?

14 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:44:25pm

Jinx!

15 Tim K  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:44:35pm

It is obvious that an Islamic Scholar spent alot of time and energy to write the above instructions.
Ha--Ha, Like there is such a thing as an Islamic Scholar. To follow that crap one has to have had a lobotomy.

16 Jheka  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:45:30pm

LOL!

17 Black_Flag  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:46:26pm

"It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a Camel who is not a man’s legal wife, but once Shariah makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not"

Interesting concept...

18 Ed Moran abu Philosemite  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:50:40pm
It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a woman who is not a man’s legal wife, but once Shariah makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not

Oh give me a break. They go to a foreign land to kill all the men and capture all the women, and then they might have a guilt trip about "copulating" with a woman the way they copulate with barnyard animals.


The rape and booty part is the whole reason Mo was able to sign up other camel caravan raiders to his whole sick "religion".

Somebody mentioned the 6,666 verses of the un-Holy Quran in a thread earlier today, and I, among others (I recall seing the fiery Celtic person, among others) have questioned whether Allah is Satan (and, for us Christians, Big Mo was the "False Prophet"). It almost seems to make sense.

19 Jheka  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:52:24pm

What happened to the comments???

As I was saying:

Can't you just see it? Millions upon millions of horny, repressed Shahids desparate to see battle so that there will be a chance that they will finally get laid, in this life or the next. Yeah, that's a lovely basis upon which to build a culture.

20 mark  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:53:16pm

Wait, you guys!

...no law of shariah is contradictory to wisdom


Don't you guys know anything about islam?

21 Ms. Andi  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:53:29pm

Over my freakin' dead body!

I posted this a few weeks ago. So sorry for repeating it. Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan (who,btw, is the main author of Saudi religious curriculum) advocates legalizing slavery.

Islam=Death to Civilization

22 Camel Prophet  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:56:09pm

After Mohammed personally organized the murder, by beheading, of 900 innocent male (and one female) members of the Jewish, Banu Quraizay tribe of Yethrib (Medina), he distributed their wives and children among muslim bandits, as sex-booty.

Slave women have never had any right to resist rape by a muslim male. Phillipine, Sri Lankan and Indian women who work as domestics in the Saudi entity, repeatedly claim sexual abuse. And the Saud authority don't recognize the complaint of a dis-believer. Rape is legal in the Saud entity, and will be throughout islamania, unless the West imposes secular constitutions on these savage states, and liquidates the imam class.

23 Ms. Andi  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:56:19pm

re: my post in #21

It's in a PDF format. Scroll down to the English text.

24 Yankee Zionist  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:57:02pm

Let's face it.

If this is what God wants done, then God is evil.

God isn't evil. Therefore the Koran is wrong.

25 HULUGU  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:57:04pm

i don't know about you but i'm jumping on my donkey and heading straight to mauritania to ask permission of the amir ul momimeen to hand over one of his shebas--no more hookers for me when i can get EXCLUSIVE rights to a punch dummy bestowed on me by my fuhrer and she will be greatful because my buddies can't pull a train on her--failing that i can go to iran for a one night "temporary marriage" stand--all this without divorcing one of my four wives--its better than going to vegas

26 sb from Jericho, LI  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:57:21pm

Of course, this sort of slavery is tolerable to the Left, I guess, because it's just the spoils of war in a foreign land. Now, just imagine if it were Donald Rumsfeld as the Ameerul-Mu’mineen, determining 'ownership' of those same women in Iraq... would that get some of those folks excited?

I'm always hearing that we should listen to why people like this hate us. What a joke. I think the book these rules came from predates Bush, Reagan and even modern Israel.

27 David  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:58:09pm

I posted a link to this wonderful, enlightening fatwa last week. My heart goes out to the Mufti when I see his sorrow over it not being feasible to implement true islamic slavery today...

28 Belize042  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:59:22pm
Hence, if a person fails to comprehend the underlying wisdom of any law of Shariah, he cannot regard it as a fault of Shariah (Allah forbid), on the contrary, it is the fault of his own perception and lack of understanding, because no law of Shariah is contradictory to wisdom.

Breathtaking. Shariah is, by definition, logical and wise. So, what Mohammed says is--pardon the expression--gospel, people. If we object to slavery and mutilation, we simply suffer from a lack of understanding.

I...but...then...if...aaarrrggh! Reading that has truly dropped me through the looking-glass into Allah's Wonderland.

29 Deathberg  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 6:59:23pm

All your ladies are belong to us.

(sorry)

30 mark  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:06:18pm

In fact, under islam, no one but muslim males have any rights whatsoever, especially if these rights conflict with those of muslim males. And El Cubos seethe and whine about the 'privilege' of white christian males in this country (USA), while deflecting any criticism of the RoP. It would be poetic justice if some of these self-haters all of a sudden found themselves in a real 'racist, sexist, homophobic, repressive patriarchal, hierarchical, xenophobic' culture.

31 HULUGU  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:07:43pm

everybody join hands now and sing--especially you slave girls on the right--all together now--guantanamera-juahila guantanamera-- hokay now--we shall overcome...someday- and...this land is your land--we are the world...

32 David  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:08:18pm

Re my #27

It wasn't a link, just a quote. But my point stands; the poor ol' Mufti's upset because slavery isn't really feasible in the modern world...

33 Kragar (proud to be Kafir)  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:09:27pm

Humayun Azad stabbed, fighting for life

Unknown assailants critically stabbed prominent writer Humayun Azad with butcher's knives in front of Bangla Academy last night in an attack his family blamed on fundamentalists.


...

Talking on the motive for the attack, some publishing house staff said he was receiving threats from fundamentalists after his latest book 'Pak Saar Jamin Saad Baad' was published in a national Bangla daily's Eid issue on November 20.


...

Addressing a demonstration at Baitul Mukarram National Mosque on December 12, leaders of an anti-Ahmadiyya outfit demanded arrest and trial of Prof Azad for the novel.

Anyone want to bet the "unknown assailants" were just some good muslims?

34 aFriend  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:14:16pm

Oh. My. Gosh.

Is there nothing civilized about Islam?

I am speechless, but I don't know why I'm surprised.

35 AddictedLizardoid  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:15:06pm

Way OT

Kerry slams Bush on terror; Democrat says he'd send 40,000 additional troops overseas

Wasn't Kerry one of the "pull out of Iraq NOW" crowd? Or is this NOT one of his now-unsurprising political backflips?

36 billhedrick  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:15:20pm

Ok, I'm confused, Jihad is an inner struggle to become holy. How do you take prisoners during that?

37 Ed Moran abu Philosemite  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:15:28pm
-- Trolling for votes in the delegate-rich Golden State, Democratic front-runner John Kerry slammed President Bush Friday for alienating allies and doing "too little" in the war on terror.


Well, they got one part right

CNN Story

38 Ms. Andi  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:18:19pm

#25 HULUGU

LOL! I have friends who live in Iran. The "temporary marriage" is a booming business (hotels, flowers, etc...)

btw for everyone, MO (piss be upon him) had his own sex slave.

39 ytf  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:20:19pm

Somebody really ought to send those Christian-enslaving Muslims in the Sudan another copy of the memo--the Mufti says they're doing it all wrong.

40 mark  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:21:27pm

IMHO, eventually, say, within the next 100 years, the middle east will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 19th century and toward a concept of humane behavior...either that or, God forbid, they succeeed in destroying Western civilization, which seems less likely. The only real question is, how many innocent lives will be destroyed in the processs? The 20th century saw the loss of over 100 million in the pursuit of failed utopian statist doctrines. Are we facing another 20th century, or worse? I fear for my children, for my neices and nephews. What will their lives be like?

41 quark2  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:23:53pm

If you really want to see an effective way of bringing down crap weasel MoHamAss's cult, just work on spreading sedition among the women. Start young, make them hate their male family members, teach them secretive ways of not getting pregnant. Make them angry in being treated like trash heaps.
Fantasy:

Female covert army. Slips in and gelds all muslim men. Going from villiage to villiage spreading fear
and panic. Trophies who collects the most muslim mountain oysters. :)

42 danS  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:24:52pm

Jihad is one thing we are not informed enough about, but look at this:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GuestColumns/pr intTaheri20030819.shtml

via http://www.thedissidentfrogman.com/

43 zulubaby  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:25:19pm

HULUGU (#31)

LOL!

44 AB  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:28:17pm

When a muslim tries to justify the oppression of women following with, "A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals..." I hope people can see how they see women.

45 E  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:30:26pm

Marriage = Slavery = Fish Possesion = Fish Consuption = Formally Slaughtered Animals appropriately "chanted" = "Halaal" coition with said meat?

How lucky I am to have such "wise" leaders who not only save me from my puny comprehension, but the incovenience of any thought of my own.

46 Gordon  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:38:33pm

Question for the LGF faithful, or anyone else viewing for that matter:

I notice that the Mufti is based in "Camperstown, South Africa." Not exactly a center of Islamic power and influence (or am I wrong about that?). Is the Mufti a "mainstream" voice of Islam in any sense of the word, or is he the equivalent of the racist "Christian Identity" movement in the U.S., ostracized and isolated?

I know I will be accused of cultural relativism once again, but a Christian or Jewish nutcase could also justify slavery and a lot of other nefarious practices based upon passages in the Old Testament, and perhaps the New Testament too.

I would think that people on this site of any would know that possession of a web site doesn't make for possession of much of anything, including sanity.

But I profess I don't know anything about this guy other than that his views are repellent and ridiculous.

47 SoCalJustice  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:43:31pm

(#46) Gordon

If you had to pick a spot on the planet that represented "mainstream" Islam, what would it be?

Mecca, perchance?

Plenty of repellant stuff coming out of there too.

48 Seppo  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:54:51pm

You missed some choice quotes, Charles:


When Islam came and prospered, its power was challenged by the enemies of Islam and the need to go to war arose. By that time, slavery had virtually become an international custom. It was also rife among the Arabs from the days of darkness and ignorance. Thus, abolishing it instantaneously would have caused chaos and pandemonium among the Arab people. Hence, a process of gradual extirpation had to be implemented.

Um, yeah. Kinda like instant abolition of paganism and polytheism at swordpoint would have caused panic among the Arab people, right?


Moreover, if the Muslims would set all their enemy-prisoners free and tolerate their fellow Muslims being captured and enslaved by the enemies, it would have lead to a sharp decrease in the Muslim military force and given a great advantage to the enemy forces which was something that the Muslims could not afford. Furthermore, it is a well known fact that warfare tactics used by one side are often countered by the opposing side in order to maintain a balance of power. Hence, wartime diplomacy necessitated the enslaving of prisoners.

So, like, the Muslim Ummah should have no problem with prisoners held in Gitmo, right? This is just the natural order of things, right?


Similarly, if a slave woman was married previously in enemy territory to a non-Muslim, and is then captured alone, i.e. without her husband, it is not permissible for any Muslim to have relations with her until her previous marriage is nullified, and that is done by bringing her to an Islamic country and making her the legal possession of a Muslim. Bringing her into Islamic territory necessitates the rendering of her previous marriage as null and void by Islamic law because with her husband in enemy territory and she in Islamic territory, it becomes virtually impossible for them to meet and live as man and wife. That is why it is not permissible to have intercourse with a woman whose husband is also taken into captivity and put into slavery with her.

Or, you could just kill the guy.


Islam ensured that the slave girl's duties were not restricted merely to domestic chores but also gave her master permission to copulate with her. This concession created an atmosphere of love and harmony between the slave girl and her master. Islam thereby raised the status of the war captive-maidens close to that of wives. It was a psychological cure to her grief-stricken heart, being deprived of her family and thrown into the hands of a strange society.

So she wanted to be kidnapped? She was asking to be raped? 'No,' in this case, means 'Yes'?

And, finally, on whether or not Slavery is permitted in the Islamic World today:


One question that still remains is whether slavery still legally prevails anywhere in the Islamic world and whether it can be successfully implemented in this age. Well, there is no prevalence of lawful slavery in the Islamic world todayand it would be difficult to implement it because of the stringent conditions attached to it... There is hardly any Islamic country todaythat can abide to all these conditions, with the result that it is quite difficult to implement slavery in this time and age.

49 Pro-Bush Canuck  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:56:38pm

The gulf between Islam and the West is vast and unbridgeable. The new century is hardly started and already we make out the hazy dark outlines of wars to come far more sweeping than the puny conflicts of the twentieth century.

Reformation, or else ~0.5x10^9 dead before 2100.

50 mark  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 7:56:46pm

#46 Gordon

There are plenty of Christian fundamentalist nutjobs out there who condemn anyone who doesn't adhere to their narrow ideology. Two points - They are not considered 'mainstream' voices...and more importantly, none of them, at least in the last 100 years, have justified slavery, you asshat. That they could, based on the bible, is not in doubt. They don't, because they are not stuck in the eighth century, unlike a certain religion of peace.

51 gymnast  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:07:52pm

#46, Gordon. Google, Deedat+Islam. You will be surprized at what you find in South Africa.

52 quark2  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:08:49pm

Ownership?

How about All your testicles are belong to us'n wimmin. :)

53 quark2  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:23:40pm

Have any of you noticed the sudden proliferation of articles where muslims are announcing how they are the original discoverers of places like California, Australia, other parts of the U.S. Laying claim now to how Native Americans were originally muslims? Now they are claiming they've already been to the moon hundreds of years before the West was there.
I don't remember seeing any flags with crescent moons up there when the first step was made for man.
Maybe this is a signal on the coming fights where they claim sovereign and imminent domain...or as some would say "firstest".
In their fantasy of having a global ummah, they think by saying "firstest" that justifies their attacking the rest of us.

OT:
Did anyone see the interview on Charlie Rose with the new president of Georgia? Rose ask him about how many muslims were there, and he said a very small percentage.

54 I Scalp Muslams[deleted]  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:24:38pm
55 evariste  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:35:22pm

You might be funny if you knew how to spell muslim.

56 liav  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:37:27pm

Well, They only get two things right! The point of thier "puny knowlege" and the tie in of women and the smell of fish!
Maybe we should try to fill the GRAND CANYON with RoP carcasses

57 Tasty Beverage  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:53:48pm

#56 liav

and the tie in of women and the smell of fish!

I hate to break this to you, but the smell of fish on a woman is indicative of trichomoniasis.

You should adjust your taste in women.

58 evariste  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 8:58:09pm

Hah!!!
Women should smell sweet, like pineapples and lavender. Or something.

59 norar  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 9:06:45pm

#46 Gordon

Question for the LGF faithful, or anyone else viewing for that matter:

Are you asking yourself? According to the list Charles published yesterday if there are "LGF faithful" you are the one.

Is the Mufti a "mainstream" voice of Islam in any sense of the word, or is he the equivalent of the racist "Christian Identity" movement in the U.S., ostracized and isolated?

Well, I did not hear about Muslim World Congress, Arab League, and etc. "ostracising and isolating" Sudan, Mauritania, and the rest of the countries where Muslims practise slavery on unfaithful. I did not hear about UN "ostracising and isolating" these countries either, and I did not hear "the world" outcry about this. Wait a minute, this is not what you are asking about. Heh ...

60 John Davies  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 9:35:39pm

#36 billhedrick

You beat me to the exact posting that I was going to make!

61 Senior Ferrari  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 9:46:57pm

I'm with #36 here: I must be missing something. How is it that, in the course of the inner struggle to give up smoking, you wind up with all these extra women?

62 okimutt  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 9:55:00pm

#46 Gordon- Obscure snake handling sects in the States

are more theologicly sound than the rop. My own guess

is that ol mohammed tried to reverse engineer all the

existing religions in that part of the world and really

got the schematics screwed up because the put-

upon women were poisoning his sorry a**. Or maybe

he was just plain bat crazy from lack of cold beer.

I wouldn't worry about the S.African Imam or his

"credentials"- if he wasn't on the straight and narrow-

he'd be deceased.

63 Laxmi  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 10:10:14pm

Gordon doesn't have a clue.. that Desai is perhaps a Gujarati Muslim... The surname 'Desai' indicates that his ancestors were killed, raped and converted to Islam.
Desai is originally a Brahmanical name.

Like the Pakistani Muslims, these forcefully converted Muslims from the Indian Sub COntinent try constantly to be more arab then the arabs themselves.

They try perpetually to gain acceptance by the arabs... so they are much more fundamentalistic and orthodox. They are in denial about their tragic past, they instead make it up that it was for good that they atlast saw the true religion.

Those people are not the side-burns of the muslim world, but they are right at the center of mainstream Islam.

Like I have always said, Gordon doesn't know anything.

64 ploome  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 10:37:44pm

...obviously, “Wa maa ooteetum min al-ilm illaa qaleelan”

65 insomniac  Fri, Feb 27, 2004 11:14:46pm

#46 Gordon

Is this mainstream enough for you? It comes from none other than a prominent Saudi government cleric Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik calling for the enslavment of Jewish women

Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women? Why don't you wage jihad? Why don't you pillage them?

Saudi Telethon Host Calls for Enslaving Jewish Women, National Review Online, April 26, 2002

66 Mozartus  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 1:11:31am

Muslims would bring back slavery tomorrow if they could - it's part of Sharia so it's valid for all time.

Anyway it still exists in Saudi Arabia - where do you think all the Sudanese Christian slaves are sent? - and Mauretania, among other places.

It's the same jihad mentality that is behind the frequent rapes/gang rapes of non-muslim women in Australia, France etc. - these women are seen as lawful booty, they are not 'protected' dhimmis, they are part of darul harb and it is therefore lawful to rape them, likewise minority women in muslim countries who no longer have the 'protection' of dhimmitude.

I think the same goes for prostitutes - they are paid for their services, so technically they are the in the payer's 'possession' ie. slaves, for the duration. Hence, the flying-in of non-muslim good-time girls to places like Saudi is not against Islam.

Mo Atta et all purportedly visited prostitutes before 9/11 and the world said 'but how could good Muslims do this' - but they were being extremely good Muslims.

What the non-muslim world has failed to come to grips with is the inverted sense of right and wrong the muslims have. For muslims, there is no right and wrong per se. If the koran/hadiths says an action is okay, then it's okay, no matter how morally/ethically repugnant it actually is. Muslims, born like the rest of us with an innate sense of right and wrong, are twisted from birth by these teaching to invert right and wrong, good and evil. Untill we understand this mentality we will never overcome it.

Education is sadly lacking. The only mention I heard in school about Islam was the crusades, and they wasn't set in context, although the Muslims were and are the greatest enemy civilisation has ever known. And the ignorance/nonchalance of our politicians is appalling. We in Europe have been sold out.

Every school child should be taught honestly about Islam... but I guess I'm asking too much...

67 MszPhit  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 3:34:21am

Sickening, simply sickening!

68 Biased Observer (not the lower case guy)  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 3:40:20am

#62 Okimutt

Great post. Both funny and true!

69 Baldy  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 3:50:45am

OT: September 11 is God's work: Mufti (Sydney Morning Herald 2/28)

The powerful leader of Australia's 300,000 Muslims, Sheik Taj el-Din Al Hilaly, has praised the September 11 terrorist attacks as "God's work".
A week ago, the Australian Federal Police decided against investigating the Mufti's overseas activities.
70 Herr Dork  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 4:06:31am

As pointed out above, the mufti said that slavery would be impractical in the modern world because it would be too difficult to implement. Not that it would be morally wrong, just "difficult to implement." Nice religion they got there.

71 Baldy  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 4:13:11am

OT: Bangladeshi Novelist Stabbed (New Kerala News/IANA)

Noted Bangladeshi novelist Humayun Azad is in a critical condition after being stabbed in an attack that his family has blamed on Muslim fundamentalists furious over his book against Pakistan...Witnesses said a gang of men armed with butcher knives swooped on Azad, 56...

OT: Bay Area-based online network connects like-minded Muslims (AP/Almeda Times-Star)

Naseeb also offers a religious compatibility quiz that allows users to display their responses to questions such as how frequently they pray, whether it is inappropriate to have dancing or music at weddings and how they'd react if alcohol was served at a company party.

naseeb.com

72 mike from ny  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 4:22:55am

doesn't a jihadi to win a jihad first before worrying about slaves, rape, imposed ignorance, genital mutilation and friday riots? each day they lose land, are captured and killed. and they'll continue to do so until we stop wanting them to lose land, get captured and killed. this mufti's (or whomever he is) presumption is comic, like thier whole program. similar to obl's "-planes from east and west..."

i like to remind them and thier apologists of these facts this whenever i get a chance. they seem to be very sensitive about this. quein sabe?

73 okimutt  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 4:23:06am

#69- Baldy- Thanks dude- no chance of this on cnn
et al. We could really save lots of money gunning for
these clowns- and maybe lower Bigels' blood pressure
at the same time. The interpreter/apologist for the
mufti boy sounds like he used to work for the Clintons.

74 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 4:51:46am

I'm so sick and tired of the comparison of Islam (radical or mainstream) to Christianity.
Besides revered Phelps - where are all these supposed radical Christians?

Moral relativism and selective historical amnesia (or just plain ignorance) is the disease of the left.


Do bible thumpers want to kill and rape?

75 Baldy  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 4:58:01am

$74 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs -- I agree. I would say that the Christian fringe (e.g. Rev Phelps - Who even protested outside of a memorial service for...Mr. Rogers)) is comparable to the Islamic mainstream.

76 Westward Ho  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:28:38am
but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension. Allah Ta’ala has said in the Holy Quraan:

Wow the birth of empirical philosophy
/ sarcasm off

Allah's response to Intellectual inquiry

STFU,STFD & if you cannot carry out the prescription then FOAD,

77 another beer drinker  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:29:51am

Ask-Iman.com provides some useful insight into the thoughts and concerns of our muslim brothers. Based on the number of questions raised on the topic, it appears that the issue of sex with slaves is a pressing issue for muslims.

BTW the iman says reading a magazine while crapping is forbidden.

78 Ms. Andi  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:45:28am

When we go to the moon, it's imperative we bring an Israeli astronaut. I'm sure an Israeli flag on the moon will bring nuke developments to a screeching halt as Islam scrambles to send their sorry asses up there. I'm sure they'll fail in such an endeavor.

79 steve miller  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:47:41am

The point is, I think, that we don't know who thinks the looniness of this guy from South Africa is authoritative -- and the difficulty is that there is no "there" there in Mohammedan theology. Nothing is authoritative except the Koran - the hadiths are collections but there is no canonical list of hadiths nor is there agreement about which hadiths are authoritative. And there's no agreement about which fatwas are authoritative. There's no agreement as to the "real" Mohammedan - there are Sunnis and Shias in the main, but there are other sects as well.

Given that there is no authoritative center (not even Mecca or Medina), we are perfectly able and permitted to choose the looniness of the S.African guy as authoritative or representative - and we can wait to see if the so-called mainstream Mohammedan groups say anything that would reverse or overturn this.

I'm more amazed at the number of so-called "Muslims" who practice and believe things that have nothing to do with the Koranic text. They tell me these practices are "Islamic," but when I point out that they are not universal, then they start hedging. And when they point out that some particular loon isn't representative of Mohammedanism and I ask them why, they pull back to the so-called purity of Mohammedanism and the Koran -- but fail EVERY TIME to admit that their OWN beliefs and practices are not purely "Koranic." (I don't "understand," you see.)

Seems to me that since anything can be considered valid in Mohammedanism, then I have the perfect right to pick some loony leader (this guy is a leader) and point out his outrageous and asinine comments - and I can also wait for the cows to come home before any Mohammedan will actually criticize these loons.

I will wait in vain for the pronouncements from CAIR or other so-called "Islamic" groups to denounce these statements. Instead, these so-called "Islamic" groups will huff and puff about imagined slights about non-Koranic inventions, SUCH AS the crocodile tears about the hijab, which is a modern innovation and NOT Koranic at all.

If slavery and the consequent rape of women is WRONG, then I'd SURE like to see a representative of a so-called "Islamic" group come out and say "The Koran is wrong about slavery - slavery is wrong."

80 Elizabeth  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:48:43am

Weeell, isn't that just special? I'm just praying that a few of these captive jihad 'brides' have HIV or AIDS. The herd is due for a little cull and anytime now would be good, G*d!

81 Cracker2  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:08:56am

#53 Quark2

(See Danile Pipes weblog on this. And I think there is a LGF thread too)

You are so right about the motivation behind the muslims claiming first rights to the new world. The impetus for this comes from Amir Muhammad who wrote Muslims in America: Seven Centuries of History. This is a best seller on many of the islamic websites. he also created an exhibit that toured schools and universities as well as being displayed at the Martin Luther King Library in DC in 1999.

He explains, "Muslims have throughout American history helped build and preserve America..."
A link to his exhibit is on the US State Dept. website "Muslims in America." They also have up an article about the exhibit from the Indiana Daily Student that says "... Muslims have a huge history in this country." "...so many Muslims have paved th way for this America we know. It is our obligation to make
people aware that Muslims helped to build this country."

The muslims have taken a few facts such as the dna of the Melungeons of Appalachia shows kinship with Libyans and Portuguese; some slaves were muslims; a few muslim traders did reach the Americas and from this historical data add their own special twist to the mix such as, cherokee, hopi, tallahassee, cree, apache, anasazi, hohokam mohawk, etc. as well as 565 place names are derived from arabic; that in the southwest there are remains of muslim schools and remains of mosques; that muslims "helped put the breath of life into the newly framed constitution."

This is cultural jihad. It is their objective to insinuate themselves into the cultural context of our history, then they will take claim for all the enlightened culture we have produced and will have another reason to wage jihad on us.

WHERE ISLAM GOES, BLOOD FLOWS

82 quark2  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:13:08am

@80 Elizabeth

I don't remember where I read it, but AIDS and HIV are on the increase among arabs/muslims. I'll see if I can find the source.

OT:
Oh yeah, if any of you have missed the latest article over at the The Volokh Conspiracy, go and read it now. This is some serious sh!'te!

"
[Eugene Volokh, 2/27/2004 04:49:36 PM] (See posts that link to this one)
Software warfare: The Washington Post reports:

In January 1982, President Ronald Reagan approved a CIA plan to sabotage the economy of the Soviet Union through covert transfers of technology that contained hidden malfunctions, including software that later triggered a huge explosion in a Siberian natural gas pipeline, according to a new memoir by a Reagan White House official."

[Link: volokh.com...]


Charles it may be an item that needs a thread of it's own.

83 quark2  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:22:57am

@81 Cracker2

The [bigoted word]s are once again active in the theft of culture and history. The fact is Jewish people have been active in the building and foundation of this country from the start.
The [bigoted word]s intend on erasing the physical history of any Jews being here at anytime before WWII.
And the El Cubo Left are allowing this theft to continue.

We need some historians to pubically call these thieves on the carpet. They need to be branded liars and thieves in front of huge masses of this country.
One thing I know, the original natives of this country are not going to appreciate being associated with the death cult that calls itself RoP. Their cultures were violent at times, but they did not go around stealing the history of other tribes. And they were not abusive of their environment as the muslims are. Plus they all had a supernatural affinity to DOGS.

84 another beer drinker  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:26:00am

according to ask-iman.com, owning female goats and cats as pets is forbidden, but slaves are permitted.

85 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:30:59am

#75 Baldy

Rev. Phelps protested Mr. Rogers? Oi vey.
Rev Phelps is an idiot.

But because he operates under the guise of "Christianity" - Islam means peace by comparison.

86 lucretius  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:40:55am

islam.tc is a qutbist site not representative of most muslims.

87 steve miller  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:57:01am

Re "islam.tc is qutbist..." & ct. -- what exactly IS representative of "most muslims"?

88 ushie  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 7:01:06am

"but once Shariah makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not"

This is the most demented phrase ever uttered. I mean, you look at the Ten Commandments: Ok, pretty much they make sense. You look at various verses in the Bible--the verses suggest abstinence (and anyone with a hangover can appreciate that one), ambition, beneficence, brotherly love, chastity, kindness, compassion, happiness, forgiveness, loyalty, integrity, service to neighbors, as well as not eating shellfish and not mixing denim and leather (beating nit-picking people to the verse).

You look at the dementia in the Shariah and you just KNOW that craziness is built in. God, either in the Jewish or Christian view, never admonishes his/her followers to be deliberate idiots.

I mean, no wonder the Islamofascists can violate the strongest "law" of humanity--deliberate murder--and see it as a virtue. No wonder they can rape and feel no guilt. No wonder they mutilate their women and destroy the souls of their children. Sure, it's not to their taste, but Shariah says they should, anyway, so let's strap the bomb vest on the kid and send him out.

What a wonderful belief system. Dang, but I just don't feel like murdering or raping any infidels today...

89 ushie  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 7:02:32am

And anyway, it's well-known that the ancient Romans discovered America in the first century CE, so we got them Muslims beat. We belong to Ancient Rome. Caesar, come back!

90 Mike7411  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 7:16:31am

#86 lucretius

islam.tc is a qutbist site not representative of most muslims.

You know, I keep hearing that from like 1 guy standing off to the side of the ROP, but it all ways sounds kinda back handed, like shut up and believe what we tell you thing...

Notice when we have a nut job run lose you get something like this...

"#75 Baldy

Rev. Phelps protested Mr. Rogers? Oi vey.
Rev Phelps is an idiot."

And you get it over and over from almost everyone...

I don't wanna be the one to say this... but if the ROP don't get off it's ass and start doing something about your wack extreme, people like me are going to start believing you all are like that...

And that's only a few steps away from war in the streets..

I know that makes me sound like a racist, But where's your Martin Luther King, who's leading your peace movement (sorry had to ask)?

Do you realize that if you had someone like MLK and a few hundred thousand of the plali's just calmly walked into Israel and sat down they'd have a fricking state, because those horrible jooows wouldn't know what to do... because believe it or not they are good people...

My advice... time, she is a running out... you all had best get on it... or it's the waste bin of history for ya... and maybe a foot note in some text...

Mike7411

91 Joy  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 7:30:24am

Every single day I am more convinced that Islam is the enemy, and a sick and evil system.

[I can hear the "multi-cultis" in San Francisco, my former home, screaming.]

92 RF  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 7:37:10am

It all sounds like some bad movie.

"The barbarians are at the gates! They are going to kill us and rape our women unless we fight!"

The problem is, it's real.

It's difficult to convince the jaded, cynical class that what sounds like a bad B movie script is in fact very real.

Yet convincing them is what we must do.

93 Mike7411  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 7:51:54am

It's a small step from everyone seeing Islam as a religion and being seen as a cult. And I can already see the slope for them. White boy in the guard in washington getting busted for giving them info... they've already started portraying him as brainwashed... the next step is vans pulling up along side kids on the street to take them away to be deprogramed... just 1 of those in the news Islam... and you go from ROP to death cult... Time... she is a wastin...


Mike7411

94 Throbert McGee  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 8:50:21am
If you really want to see an effective way of bringing down crap weasel MoHamAss's cult, just work on spreading sedition among the women. Start young, make them hate their male family members, teach them secretive ways of not getting pregnant. Make them angry in being treated like trash heaps.

I think you might enjoy this comic, if you haven't seen it before. [Note: scrolls horizontally.]

95 Ben B  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 9:05:38am

It's sick.

Imagine what it would sound like if you removed the arabesques -

My people go to war because our book tells us to. The author of our book made everything. And everything, no matter how apparently horrible in this book is true. Truer than true. Its truth can't be questioned. The author has his reasons for saying what he says. He says we must claim the earth for its author, fill it full of people who believe in him and read our book. Oh, yes, when we go to war we kill people. Our book says we must. We take away the dead men's belongings because they are ours. This includes their women. We kill the old and ugly ones. The youngest ones are shared out by the commander-in-chief to be slaves. We rape them whenever we want to. Our book says its alright. Our books says we have to people the world with believers. . . .

and the imam goes on to say: these girls, which you own, whose fathers and brothers you killed, really enjoy being raped by you, because it makes them feel at home in the strange country to which they have been taken.

Sometimes, when I read the Koran, I get the impression that Allah is a kind of mentally sick adolescent male. There's psychosis all over it.

96 Ronin  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 9:49:58am

#95, now post THAT translation on headline News for a week and i would shudder at the thought of what the publics reaction would bring.

In 2001 we were so hung up on human rights for foriengers that americans would go into caniption fits at the thought of american hands torturing or abducting forign nationals.

In 2003 Bin Laddens second in command was captured on national television after a REALLY late night raid into his bedroom, he looked like shit, obviously beaten up, obviously soon to be tortured for information through some 'acceptable' method. And at worst except for a very silent minority of americans, all that you could see was a ever so slight upward curving of lips into a almost invisible smile on the nations face, weve changed that much.

Now, today, make this nations women feel as if they are on the brink of being sexual pieces of meat for unwashed jihaddist in the next centry. I dont want to see a future where America is pushed that far, the lesser of two evils is enough to keep me from sleeping at night.

Thankfully this is just more blather from old insane mullahs to horny deluded mysogonistic masses of future tools of cowards who dont know how to win a stand up fight. Anbyody catch that special last night on the strategies used in the Iraqi war? Hell that one iraqi general of the Republican guard sounded like he coulda given us some trouble for a few weeks, good for us he was taking orders for idiots like Uday and his daddy.

97 Henry S.  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 1:49:58pm

The knowledge, wisdom, and absolute hilarity of LGF'ers never ceases to amaze me and if this is typical of a Saturday evening blogalog I'm going to have to send my honey up to Manchester more often so I can hang out in the University computer centre.

#79 steve miller

Your post is spot-on and suggests the RoP would be particularly vulnerable to neutering and ultimate defeat via a strategy of infiltration and subversion. If there is no absolute governing authority akin to the Vatican and the Hadiths are subject to interpretation and relative validation, why aren't we investing a small percentage of the NSA, CIA, and FBI budgets towards "staffing" mosques and madrassas with imams who produce an alternative message to Wahhabism?* Last time I looked, our GDP was fifty times that of Saudi Arabia and they're currently spending hundreds of millions of dollars to infiltrate and subvert our institutions.

*Mandatory disclaimer: but of course, that would be wrong.

98 Laxmi  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:11:48pm

Can anybody tell me what is the definition of 'RAPE' in Islamic Shariah?

Rape is non-consensual sex forced upon anyone right?
oh wait.. damn.. Allah has decreed thro his mighty Prophet's sayings that this is wrong...

One more question - how will a Muslim greet his victim before he rapes her? 'SalamAliakum'?

99 del  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 5:23:52pm

#86, lucretius,

would you happen to have any links or references to something "representative of most muslims"?

Please don't send me dawah. I would like to see teachings by clerics to their own muslim constituencies.
Thanks.

100 db  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 6:52:58pm

Lucky 100

This whole SHARIA requires it, so don't ask questions, thing...

Nuremberg decided that "just following orders" doesn't work. What did that decision cst? 100 mil?

We got a billion bodies willing to overturn Nuremburg.

101 Trumanite  Sat, Feb 28, 2004 11:04:10pm

#64 Plume

My friend the Imam, he told me what to say, he told me:

"Wa maa ooteetum min al-ilm illaa qaleelan

ting tang walla walla bing bang"

102 Ben B  Sun, Feb 29, 2004 2:22:26am

#97 Henry S.

Interesting thought, and with historical precedent.

It's what the British did after the Indian Mutiny (which was largely fomented by Muslim clergy.) They got rid of the hell-raisers (by execution) and replaced them with moderates who professed jihad to be an internal struggle. Ahmadayyans were particularly favoured (and they consequently suffered in Pakistan after Partition.) The British slipped up in tolerating Deobandism, tho'.

Pakistan means 'the land of the pure'. Wouldn't you have guessed it?

103 PDM  Sun, Feb 29, 2004 2:34:15am

It should be permitted for a human being to own a Muslim, but not for a Muslim to own a human being.

104 dsesq67  Sun, Feb 29, 2004 5:09:05am

I can't figure out whether I am more stunned that the question was even asked, or on the Mufti's admonition to not question the underlying premises of the Shariah--these people are captives of their own slavish ignorance.

105 Baldy  Sun, Feb 29, 2004 5:10:08am

#85 Free Speech Is Only For Uber-Libs
#90 Mike7411
The difference between Rev Phelps & various Muftis, (both spouting nonsense and evil) is that Christians, both liberal & conservative, condemn the likes of Rev Phelps. There also was the case of Pat Robertson & Jerry Falwell saying 9-11 was because G-d did not protect America, because America supported pagans, gays etc. They were immediately condemned by all.

Mad Muftis are not roundly condemned by other Muslims. If a Jewish or Christian leader said something like this, their fellow Jews & Christians would condemn them.

106 Lucretius  Sun, Feb 29, 2004 8:26:10pm

#99

I doubt the 50- 70 million muslims in China are following sharia law. Laws are different in Nigeria than they are in India, different in Saudi Arabia from Iraq, and so on. Its not uniform. Sharia isn't monolithic either, though I suspect you really don't care to learn about it or muslims. Islam is not a monolith, and there are plenty of moderate muslim mullahs and imams. Go to your local mosque if you want to talk to some. What some of you call "wahabism" is not a madhab, or school of thought, within (sunni) Islam. Quoting the ayatollah kholmeini as representative of Islam (as I've seen done by some) is also absurd. Islam has its problems, but it not a "death cult" nor is it the enemy. Anyway, I kind of miss the point of this post by Charles. So Dr Desia gives his opinion. so what? how is relevant to the war on terror?

see this:

[Link: www.muhajabah.com...]

107 del  Mon, Mar 1, 2004 6:46:33pm

lucretius.

If there are plenty of moderate imams, it should be easy for you to give me references to their books or writings produced to teach fellow muslims. why the evasive answer to my simple request?

Sure islam is not monolithic. However, quoting khomeini is very reasonable, as long as one understands that he implemented and controlled a large sharia based system of governance in a major islamic country, but that he doesn't represent all muslims everywhere, since he was shia grand ayatollah. he was a major representative, but certainly not the only possible representative of islam.

i am not interested in speaking to an imam. That would defeat my purpose, which is to see or hear a truly moderate islamic cleric preaching to his own constituency a message of peace and tolerance for kufr. since i'm not muslim, and have no desire to become one, anything spoken directly to me would be irrelevant. i have heard both in person (as an anonymous audience member in MSA events) and through extensive quoted translation, messages of hatred for infidels from hte mouths of islamic clerics spoken to muslim audiences. i'm looking for those amazingly difficult to find messages of tolerance (and not the b.s. spoken to interfaith gatherings). you should be eager to help here. what gives?

Relevance of desai? come on. he is a teacher of the ideology which bin laden used to justify the wtc attacks, an assortment of embassy bombings and other attempted terrorist attacks. i assume you are a muslim, but even if not: Out of curiosity, do you consider al-qaeda, wahhabis, salafis, and the muslim brotherhood, to be muslims, or to be apostates of some sort, based upon their self-claimed actions?

108 del  Thu, Mar 4, 2004 3:29:31pm

lucretius,


i see that you have not responded to my request. perhaps i was not clear.

I am looking for statements specifically from clerics, not from lay-people. But, I am not looking for propaganda from clerics aimed at western eyes and ears, such as the links you provided through your pagelink in your #106. For example, I did look at several of the links to material produced by Qaradawi and Tantawi (both very influential, with Tantawi probably the single most prestigious sunni cleric on the planet). The statements lack credibility.

The Tantawi link is to a story about a December 2001 press conference in Cairo, aimed at western reporters. Tantawi supposedly condemns suicide bombers. But then what about his statements reported in November 2003: " 'Anybody blowing himself up in the face of an the occupiers of his land is a martyr', said Shaykh Tantawi in response to a question about the Islamic shari'ah stance over the Palestinians who blow up their bodies against the Israelis.
He stressed, however, that Islam did not allow the killing of innocent civilians and children but only invaders and aggressors." [Link: www.imra.org.il...]

The key problem lies in the meaning of words such as "terrorism", "aggressor", "civilian". It is easy to find muslim clerical condemnations of "terrorism". However they often define "terrorism" as actions by unbelievers which injure the ummah (see for example: "We have to define who are the terrorists. I have to show that in the perception of many Muslims in many countries, the government of the United States are terrorists." from [Link: www.globalsecurity.org...] ).

Similiarly, since (in the view of most of the ummah) all israeli Jews are "invaders and aggressors", tantawi is able to say diametrically opposite things with the same sentence, to two different audiences.

Qaradawi is also no moderate. Although he doesn't support bin-laden, his opposition is out of rivalry for fundamentalist status, rather than out of tolerance for kufr. The link to his statement basically shows an attempt to deflect and exonerate islam from consequnces of 9/11. for a little insight, see: [Link: www.washingtoninstitute.org...]

And, your page provides a link to a supposed condemnation of terrorism by Ayatollah Khamenei of Iran. Only a fool would describe Khamenei as a moderate and as truly tolerant of kufr. Or perhaps the problem lies in the meaning of "tolerant"?

etc.

What I am looking for are regular friday khutbas and regular religious texts written by muslim clerics and aimed at their own constituencies. Please share.

109 del  Wed, Mar 10, 2004 4:57:40pm

crickets chirping...


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