The boy would cry to his mother: “Oh mother, I’m going with a stone in my hand to become a martyr.”

I'd hate to spoil his fun. I recall Patton's words:
"I don't want you to die for your country; I want you to make some poor SOB die for his." Or words to that effect.

Bemoaning the lack of “real men” in the Arab world, he said the “true boy” was one who told his mother not to cry for him if he died. The boy who cried: “Oh mother, jihad has been imposed on me and I want to become a martyr [was a son of Islam].” The boy would cry to his mother: “Oh mother, I’m going with a stone in my hand to become a martyr.”

Now if he could just get 2 friends to become martyrs who use "stone" as a weapon, and they get 2 friends, and so on....and put them up against 4th ID. End of problem.

This is one of the guys who is trying to light the world on fire. The ultimate pyro maniac. And everybody just sits around and lets him play with matches. Amazing.

So ... will Australia let this fucker back in?

Who explain da' secrets o' da airplane?
Who led da' steps o' da' pilot?
Who humiliate da' infidel?
Who make da' president cry?
WHO?!!!!!
ALLAHU!
Dat who!

#5 Bob G.

Angling for a poet laureate's job? Good stuff. It's real. It's raw. And, ya know, IT MAKES YOU THINK.

Always amusing when these "moderates" get caught ranting and raving while outside the lands of the infidels. Is there some part of their programming that forces them to go into full-blown jihadi mode the moment they believe they've left the public eye?

...my thoughts too Thom...I'm sure he'll get back in, perhaps its time for Australia to go Dutch and start ejecting blatant jihadists.

"...who made you cry mufti? Who scarred you with humiliation mufti"

AUSTRALIA!

...no, it was YOU who humiliated yourself...

L:D

This doesn't surprise me--does it surprise you? Nothing the people of this 'book' say or do surprises me anymore. There are NO MODERATE MUSLIMS! At least not enough to matter--they're too cowed by their more fanatical brethren and sisters.

Elizabeth: it's not surprising, no. But it has to continue being pointed out, over and over, relentlessly, because the majority of Westerners have slipped back into dreamland and just don't want to hear about these unpleasant facts.

The jihadis, on the other hand, are wide awake.

Charles, thank you for the hat-tip. From article:

A week ago, the Australian Federal Police decided against investigating the Mufti's overseas activities.

#9 & #10

The last sentence in the article...

A week ago, the Australian Federal Police decided against investigating the Mufti's overseas activities.

So no. We have officially gone back to sleep. Nothing to see here, move along...

#8 Orbit Rain

And, to be fair to the Aussies, America would let him back in ... even if he "Declar[ed] there was a 'war on infidels' around the world" - now that there's no such thing as treason or sedition anymore ...

Sheik Al Hilaly spoke of an “Islamic revolution”, and told his audience not to be surprised if one day a muezzin called out “Allah is Great!” from the “top of the White House”.

Or the Australian equivalent thereof ... seeing as how Australia was discovered and colonized long ago by mohammedans from that great seafaring nation - Afghanistan. At least according to Sheik Taj el-Din Al Hilaly.

It takes a great deal of effort for me not to sink into "KTA-LGSTO". As time passes, the effort looks less and less worthwhile.

Sorry to go OT so early, but this is interesting...

Mayor of Lawless Palestinian City Resigns

Nablus: Where the worst elements of Mecca, Nuremburg and Dodge City co-exist.

The crazy evil son of a bitch said: "Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained, if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error: ‘Who led your steps?’"

...What the ding dang diddly fuck does that MEAN?

Crazy. Evil. Oh, if only Charles Manson had been more organized, we'd all have been listening to his jihadi speeches. They'd have made at least as much sense as any of these whack-job mullahs.

The Western world will find that it does not have impunity from the consequences of that which it allows to take place while it sleeps or engages in willful self delusion. What will be the final price to be paid before people learn the meaning of vigilance?

Oops. The link in the link I linked to in #13 is broken. Here's the link to the original article on mohammedans discovering Australia: [Link: memri.org...]

----------
The link in the link I linked to...?? Sheesh what are you on today?

#14 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier

Lawless Palestinian City

Dispatch from the dept. of redundancy dept.?

OT, but speaking of a known liar. Has Mikie Rivero and Claire split?

Michael Rivero, (510) 264-1941, , Hayward, CA 94541
[Link: www.google.com...]

Claire Rivero, (858) 536-2304, 10328 Caminito Surabaya, San Diego, CA 92131
[Link: www.google.com...]

I am wondering if Claire got sick of him and beat the shit out of him, like his other wife did.

Ushie

Crazy. Evil. Oh, if only Charles Manson had been more organized, we'd all have been listening to his jihadi speeches. They'd have made at least as much sense as any of these whack-job mullahs.

Charles Manson is organized, and we are listening to his jihadi speeches. Well, the nearest equivalent. An entire world religion sold out as a psychotic Cult of Death, the Religion of Terrorism.

Genocide Apartheid: before you grace us with your presence on this thread, I'm throwing down the gauntlet preemptively, don't you dare mention some splinter cult loosely derived from Christianity holed up in a compound in the back woods somewhere as the equivalent of this. This would be more like the Archbishop of Canterbury calling for the slaughter of all Muslims.

(like that's gonna happen, that dhimmi has his nose too far up Arafat's ass).

But a translation of a sermon...is littered with references to Arab martyrs and Americans being punished by God

Littered the way a cat litters your yard when you're not looking.

Their hubris grows in step with their impotence and defeats. Why does the sheik remind me of the Black Knight, yelling "Oh, running away, are ya?? Come back and I'll bite your knees off!"

Mufti faces police investigation

It began as a routine traffic check but ended with the spiritual leader of Australia's 300,000 Muslims in hospital and facing charges of resisting arrest and police assault.

'Several times, when direct responses to questions about passages in the Koran begged a simple yes or no, both men preferred to avoid the issues by talking about the difficulties of translating passages from Arabic to English.’

this 'shreik' is some POS...

#18 David Simon

LOL! True to an extent. But it will be interesting to watch the reaction in such places as the security fence goes up, and the Palis are (largely) denied their outlet to kill Israelis.

“Or if we ask the giant that fell: ‘Who humiliated you?’ Or if we ask the president: ‘Who made you cry?’ God is the answer.”

Who killed these people and 2900 others? Allah did.

I don't live in Australia, but if I did, I'd have some strong "words" for this [bigoted word].

#7 Targetpractice, Much Abu About Nothing

I think it's funny how these Shieks resort to form the minute they're among their own.

They know the kaffir are watching. They know the cat is out of the bag on the whole religionofpeace thing. They know that MEMRI is listening. Yet the moment they are surrounded by wide-eyed jihadists, off they go into full blown jihadi rant. For the life of them, they just can't help themselves.

So was Bali God's work too?
Say so and THEN go back to Oz.

The price that western culture will end up paying will be horrendous. The price will see much of what we are so complacent, assumptive and apathetic about .....gone.
There will be much destruction, and there will be much death. We will be on pest patrol for many years afterwards, rooting out, digging up and scrapping from within the remnants of the RoP.
They know it's coming too. But they are so worked up suicidually that they can no longer stop themselves. They have become robotic like self destructive lemmings and will no matter what throw themselves from sheer cliffs to death. Their intent is to take as many of us with them as they can. Because it will result in a one shot chance to either defeat and rule the earth, or destroy it in the main.

rebmiami: Yes, I think you're right. Somehow, this cultic faith inspires madness and murder. Both sociopathy and psychopathy. But now I'm thinking--we can't fix Manson or his kind. Can we fix these crazy evil mullahs?

19

Who are those people, and why should I know their personal information?

The rationality-imparied [bigoted word]s are incapable of refraining from boasting and effrontery, it is thier nature.

A [bigoted word] who acts "all PC and moderate" does so strictly as an act of deception in order to lull the kuffar infidels (among whom they live, suck up social benefits and then subvert) into believing that they intend to "coexist" alongside the host organism.

The "New Jihad" as opposed to the tradtional jihad waged with rusty scimitars on horesback, is a war of subversion, buttressed by terrorism.

The first stage is infiltration, which has been successful to this point.

The second stage is subversion, which has been extremely successful everywhere that the writ of the PC and the LLL reigns.

The third stage (so far interrupted) is agitation. The [bigoted word]s hope to begin by demanding special rights. i.e. the Hijab, special "Sharia" courts (thank you Canada), evolving eventually to the right to kill apostates and Jews, practive genital mutilation, polygamy, honor killing, oppression of women, etc. etc.

The fourth stage is outright cultural domination.

They have said so in plain language time and time again. This imbecile "Mufti" in the article is only following in a long line of muslim devils.

Islam relies on prison gang tactics and has no place in civil society. Islam is a fascist idoelogy that can tolerate no way of life on earth other than its own.

Islam propagates itself through subversion, treachery and force, and advocates any and all subterfuge, fraud and larceny against all non-believers in order to achieve its evil intent.

Mohammed is the Anti-Christ and the [bigoted word]s are his hell-bent minions.

It was so in the days of the Moors and the Saracens, it was so in the days of the Moghuls and the Seljuks, it was so in the days of the Ottomans, it is so NOW.

The truth hurts. Get used to it.

“Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained, if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error: ‘Who led your steps?’

Has this guy been time warped from the Middle Ages?!?! Is he really THAT astounded by an AIRPLANE?! The secrets of which cannot be explained?

#5 Bob G.

I still prefer that to the conspiracy "theory" that 9/11 was a CIA-Zionists job that's gaining popularity even in Europe.

Aussie Muslim Leader: 9/11 "God's Work"

Crikey!

#31 Yeah, don't even get him started on flush toilets and deodorant.

#14, Jaffar abu

Now you take that back about Dodge City, you hear. Or you'll be hearing from our lawyer. (Nice Jewish feller, by the way.)

31

That is actually why Michale Moore is convinced the Pentagon did 9-11. No way simple Arab engineering graduates with flight school training could be expected to fly a plane in conditions of unlimited visibility and unrestricted ceilings along a major geographic landmark (the Hudson River) and find the two tallest buildings at the end of the river.

It had to be a CIA/Pentagon/Mossad plot, don't you see?

#17

Yeah, very famous - the big mosque in Alice Springs -
what a load of cobblers.

"The strange thing was that when our muezzin [who accompanied Sheikh Al-Hilali on his visit to Alice Springs] stood up to call for prayer, the old people of the town came out,

You bet they came out, to see what dakless wanker wuz makin all the din.

Whassa keffufle man - sounds like he's tryin to lay a cackleberry. Guys got no daks on either. Yabbin' on like he's stranglin' a Galah bird .

#37 Digga

My brother-in-law is Australian, so I understood almost half your post, mate. ;)

ot - this is absolutely delightful reading, Arab News advocates Sharia and defends women’s rights under Islumic^™ law. you won't want to miss this argument.... Bush, Bremer, and a Misplaced Concern for Iraqi Women

What the hell are we waiting for? There’s not even a remote possibility that Islum^™ will ever take one step of the stoneage, we may as well get this over with.

"But when you become acquainted with their [Aborigine] traditions among their tribes, you find that they have customs such as circumcision, marriage ceremonies, respect for tribal elders, and burial of the dead – all customs that show that they were connected to ancient Islamic culture before the Europeans set foot in Australia.

So let me get this straight:

Before mohammed pulled islam out of his ass, there was no:

- circumcision
- marriage ceremonies
- respect for tribal elders
- burial of the dead

anywhere?

If you want to elicit a muslim's true beliefs, all you have to do is pretend you are an anti-semite. Then you will hear the same spiel that they get in their mosques, every Friday. Multiculturalism has blinded the majority to even the thought that minority religious beliefs and practices might be unconscionable. In the seventies, Florida authorities were able to jail Rastas who claimed that use of weed ("ganja") was sacramental. I guess muslim incitement to genocide is: sacramental.

OT:
As the Karzai government of Afghanistan makes open approaches to exiled Taliban leaders, American aid continues to filter into Pakistan's jihad provinces. Last September, Ambassador Nancy Powell, even made a trip to North West Frontier Province, to assure the jihad government of continued US assistance. Powell even thanked the leader of the local Muttahida-Majlis-e-Amal, for participating in the democratic process, notwithstanding the MMA's suppression of opposition parties. The reward?: Taliban revival:
[Link: www.globeandmail.ca...]

Anyone who defends US aid to Pakistan, should attempt to explain the difference between Taliban and al-Qaeda. I can't see it.

OT:
A consensus against Mel Gibson's attempt to revive Passion-Play anti-semitism, is building in the Roman Catholic forums. The creed of his father, Hutton Gibson, is on record as:

"We both strive for the general return of our Catholic Church. I believe the only way is to discover a genuine Catholic bishop who signed none of the documents of the Second Vatican Council who will publicly condemn the apostates in Rome and around the world, and assume command of the Church. This is a much more practical solution to our problem..."
[Link: www.geocities.com...]

If Mel Gibson does not share his father's view, then why is he shelling out millions of dollars to support a pre-Vatican II church movement ("Holy Family")? And why did he PERSONALLY attach the following to the script of his movie, "Conspiracy Theory":
"Somebody has to lift the scab... the festering scab
that is the Vatican"?

As for his neo-Medieval' PassionPlay, Roman Catholics are questioning some of his symbolism. The scene where Jesus stomps on a snake, released by Satan, is obvious: rejection of the temptation, that Adam succumbed to. However, the reviewers have made nothing of the 2 scenes in which a demon appears. During the arrest of Jesus, a demon makes a brief appearance, then scurries off, signifying the Apostolic immunity to possession.

In contrast, Satan - who is always seen wandering among Jews - is once shown carry the same demon. In the following scenes, Jews run amok, and attack Apostles, with no apparent personal motive for doing so. Jewish children even morph into crazed Christ-killer creatures. The next time Satan is seen, he/she is no longer carrying the demon, suggesting that it has possessed the Jews, who are shown to be under Satan's control.

Mel Gibson has made two denials of anti-semitism. That doesn't mean that he doesn't believe that Jews are under demonic possession and Satanic control. Someone should ask him that, and if he evades answering, then a closer look should be taken at the Gibson-Klan agenda. The very basis for "Holy Family" existence is to repudiate Vatican II "reconciliation" with Jews, and admission of historical "errors":
[Link: www.vatican.va...]

The Gibson-Klan refer to themselves as "sedevacantists" which means: the Holy Sede has been vacated by a lawful Pope. If they don't recognize the legitimacy of the Pope, then the Gibsons are: schismists, by definition.

Mel Gibson is well aware that "Braveheart" - full of historical distortions and a diabolization of Robert the Bruce - incited a major revival of Scottish nationalism. I believe that he wants to use his Hollywood career to revive a perverted version of the "ecclesia militans" and do so, by inciting hatred against Jews and accused "apostates." Jews and Roman Catholics need to unite against this disgusting Hollywood weasel.

I rest my case on the following quote:
“This is God’s movie,” he said after a screening at Focus on the Family in August. “The Holy Ghost was running the show. I was just directing traffic.”
[Link: www.family.org...]

MEL AND HUTTON GIBSON ARE A COUPLE OF SICK FUCKS!

40 Thom

you noticed.........LOL

#23 Jaffar abu Grand Vizier - I've abandoned hope. I was there several years ago. Jericho had so much promise; now it's a Gaza-like sewer. It's a damn shame.

Sheik Al Hilaly spoke of an "Islamic revolution", and told his audience not to be surprised if one day a muezzin called out "Allah is Great!" from the "top of the White House".

Um, not going to happen.

41 Camel Prophet

I have indeed been reading some disturbing things about TPOTC and Mel's silence concerning his dad is disturbing, to say the least. I am no longer sure I'm seeing the movie.

However

THIS STILL ISN"T THE MEL GIBSON THREAD

I'm avoiding that thread like a disease because I don't want to see regular posters, including some I respect, getting so ugly with each other

#42 ploome

Ugh. Have you ever read something and the sheer stupidity of it causes a temporary brain shutdown?

Well, after I rebooted I had to post that snippet.

Seems to me they're always blaming the Big Being upstairs for patently human actions. Haj pilgrims try to shoehorn themselves into a space meant for hundreds, not thousands, and whose fault is it? Allah's, of course, because he has pre-ordained these deaths. Some crazed and depilitated fanatics fly an airplane into the World Trade Centre and, bingo, it's that Allah again. Evading human responsiblity and pinning it on God it not only the Islamoloonies' modus vivendi, it is one of the primary reasons for their moral bankruptcy and cultural stagnation.

OT,
My Bosses ( Plural ) are Aussie,
Imagine a office space where motherfucker, I will rip your head off and shit into your neck - I love them - they ( the Aussies are so UN PC ) - the foul language - our EEEENNNGGGLish is filthy to the point of corrupting all the language - Abusive & Kind - That's the Aussies Paradox- they are supremely unidiotarian.

If they get pissed - they will piss on their enemies -

Do not fuck with them

Remember Woolmura,

My boss tells me that this is Aussie Hospitality

CamelProphet.......(with apologies to Ed Moran abu SmartGuy)

have you seen Instapundits contributions?

I'VE TRIED TO CARE ABOUT ALL THE DEBATE SWIRLING AROUND THE PASSION, but I just can't seem to manage. (And I've even been crucified myself, something not many bloggers can say in the literal, as opposed to the figurative, sense.) But BlogCritics has a big roundup, for those who want more. And don't miss this long and informed review by Donald Sensing.

posted at 04:38 PM by Glenn Reynolds

It also needs to be recognized that Jesus himself is not visually presented as a Jewish man - he wears no fringes that I saw (as the Gospels explicitly say he did), no headcovering, has no phylacteries, worn by every male Jew more than 13 years old.

again.....this is criticism of the MOVIE.......its a film

#49 ploome

I'm with Glenn on this. I just can't work myself in to caring much about the movie.

fwiw, I found this very well written agenda while googleing

you may fint this interesting

[Link: www.haroonsaadiq.com...]

#43 David Simon

Very true. What can one expect? Everything the Arabs have touched in the last few centuries has turned to sh*t.

50 Colt

I won't see it

unless anaesthetised and someone rolls me into the thetre on a gurney

Sounds like the Sheik agrees with the FBI's Arabic translators - except for the one they fired, of course.

thetre .....what does this mean?

#53 ploome

Nope, me neither.

(Leaving it there to prevent another MG-style thread.)

Charles toungue in cheek comment....

"But remember, it’s just a tiny minority of fanatics, practicing a perverted version of the RoP."

What I like about you Charles and other like Robert Spencer and countless other bloggers is that humour aside, you understand the bigger picture........you know damned well it isn't just a few people distorting Islam......but that in the case of these fanatics, that they are properly following this deathly movement that has brutalized the world for over 1400 years!!

In otherwords, you understand that Islam ......... not some abstract and redundant term like Islamic terrorism, is inherently violent and brutal.......

When this Austrailian butcherer proclaims what he does, he does so because Islam has taught him to do so........he is perfectly understanding of Islam.........and this is why vile multiculturism is such a lie........not all creeds and cultures are equal........and Islam is at the nadir of the religious experience.........

It saddens me to say such things.........I know it hurts the sensibilities of Muslims but Truth does sometimes have the effect of hurting us......whether we like it or not.............

I have not an iota of bitterness or hatred towards the peoples that hold too such degenerate beliefs like Islam.......though for those that expouse hatred like this
'Austrailian' I believe we need to kick them out and for those Muslims that wish us dead, we need to kill them first......but my anger is directed at the ideology......not the holders..........I do not think Turks, Malays, Berbers, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Hausa, Uzbeks and so forth are any worse then we are.........but there beliefs are and there beliefs make them behave brutally.........Once you can divorce these people from Islam, they are on the road to civilized behavior as you can read many many great stories of Muslims that have left Islam for Christianity or Secularism and they are decent chaps!!

Islam, like Marxism and Nazism, is a facist brutal system.........unlike those other 2 brutal movements, Islam is much more patient and subtle but the end result is the same...........

Oceania...........as in 1984.........Orwell without the fancy technology....

History has shown and Posterity will show, that it was Islam......not some abtraction of it, that was our enemy!!

Kudos not only to Charles, but too so many of you here that understand what it is all about......

What I find fascinating is I wonder how many of you pre 9-11 had even a care about Islam yet now you are becoming very literate in its dangers?? And I do not say that in any condescending way........I felt like a lone voice in the wilderness along with my 2 best buddies, my ex muslim friends whom have been sounding the warnings about Islam for dozens of years!!

Good stuff...

Devon in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

Weren't as many aussies killed proportionately in Bali as Americans on September 11th? I think australians need to interact with people who attend this guy's mosque--both personally and intellectually and forcefully.

For days, all the newsies kept repeating that story of the bigotted asshat in Colorado with the "Jews killed Jesus" billboard. The point they are trying very hard to make is that all Christians even the vast majority whole spoke vehemently against it are all somehow suspect and are a group of racist bigots no matter what they say.

Now we get this and, I'll wager, not one friggin' major news source will mention it. Why is it unimportant when the national leader of a religion declares essentially a war on all who are not one of thier own? What if the Pope said Budhists were evil and declared a crusade against them? Page B8 no doubt.....

To camel prophet #41...

That part about just pretending to be an anti semite is 100 percent true......I do that myself.......I go to a Donair shop and the guy there is a North African and I really like him but sometimes I goad him and his wife on too see what they are thinking and it isn't pleasant too say the least........and these are fairly decent people....

For instance, this chap supports Hamas as I found out.......His wife doesn't think that Saddam Hussein wasn't caught but that its a fake.......and that America of course is to blame for every ill etc etc...

Another family of Muslims I am close with who really are decent enough folk and I would term very very moderate, at least in Islamic circles, are now reading and believing a book by a Muslim that says that the Jews with Mossad committed 9-11??? What the Hell is that??? That is pure lunacy..........and please let me emphazise that I have known and loved these people for over 30 years but even moderates like this hold to such childish thinking.......I simply cannot beleive it.....

These are not fire breathing hamas type Muslims but regular Sunni's moderates.........and yet even those fall to such insanity.......

I think it is easier for them to blame the Jews then to ever find fault with there religion that produces the murderers of 9-11........at least that is my theory with this particular family....

However, if moderates like these can be so easily lead into silliness.........what does it say about oversea's Muslims that do not have the moderating influence of our Western Societies on them???

Yikes....

Thanks

Devonator

@57 Proud Albertan

I really didn't give much of a heave ho before 9.11.
The RoP wasn't of much interest to me, although I was aware of the attacks that were culminating over the years that all lead right back that discipline. I just avoided reading or listening to the news about violence against American interests outside our domain. But when they struck our homeland I woke with a violent start. I have no intentions of forgetting, or going back to sleep. So many of my family are dozing off again, too busy with their superficial lives. Worried about tonights entertainment or when will be their next shopping adventure.
I've already posted we are in imminent danger of losing these luxuries, because we've no longer kept up our awareness of an enemy approaching. Now that beast has not only its nose under our tent, but most of its body as well.
Getting rid of the disease that now has infiltrated to all levels of life in America will be a painful extraction.

And my father warned of just this kind of intrusion when I was a kid back in the 50's and 60's. He too was scorned and laughed at.

THIS STILL ISN"T THE MEL GIBSON THREAD

I'm avoiding that thread like a disease because I don't want to see regular posters, including some I respect, getting so ugly with each other

That thread's worth visiting for the jokes, however...

Good for you Quark2.............this battle is just beginning and your right about people already being lulled back into apathy.........

Islam is taking no breaks from its agenda against us.....

I am afriad, as Ann Coulter says, it will take another major 9-11 to awaken us!!

Thanks

First, as a general observation I shall write that those people who think that posting an obscenity on this website makes them seem more profound are deluded. Second, those who emphasize that the Islamic scriptures teach people to murder, steal, and kill in the name of Allah are dead on. The reason you don't hear much form moderate Muslims is that they know their scriptures are against them.

If this nut in Australia thinks 9/11 was the punishment of America by Allah, I'll have to say that I partly agree with him in the sense that 9/11 was a consequence of not heeding warnings and succumbing to liberalism. In my theology, God removes his protective shield from societies that repudiate Him, and that largely describes pre-9/11 America.

But if natural and man-made disasters are the sign of God's disfavor, how do these fools explain the backwardness of their own societies and the disasters that strike them all the time?

The truth is that Islam is in a crisis. It cannot cope with the modern world, period. Unfortunately, the death throes of Islam are going to cause the world a lot more pain.

OK, breaking my own rule about MG

Joel Rosenberg from National Review on really antisemitic movies

Just from what I've been reading about TPOTC, Mel could have made a movie that better reflected on the man Mel and I both regard as The Christ, and been a lot less threatening to Jews, if the sermons had been more than just brief breaks from hour long flesh flying torture/flogging scenes. (I have also heard the Resurrection scene was very short)

Gospel of Mark 12

28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked
Him, What commandment is the foremost of all?
29 Jesus answered, The foremost is, "HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL
YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
31 The second is this, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other
commandment greater than these.
32 The scribe said to Him, Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO
ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;
33 AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND
WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more
than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of
God.

Matthew 5

1 WHEN Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 18

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven

John 8

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Throbert

Thank you for the gift of color.

BTW, how many blogs DO you have?

To #65...

Edward, that is a very nice post .......... and thanks for the link to Rosenberg's article at NRO...........man does he hit it on the head on the real anti semitic film eh!?? Wow......that is shocking stuff.........

Totally scary stuff........and you know sadly the Islamic world will eat this stuff up as if it is fact.........

Thanks

Devonator

Cowtown, Alberta, Canada

#10 Charles . . .

Thanks again for keeping your focus relentlessly on the insane world of the Islamofascists.

Yes, most people that I know do live in a dream world, and I don't know what it will take to wake them up. Maybe I do know--but I don't want that bad thing to happen.

Moderate Muslims exist, even liberal ones. I know this for a fact.

Can't tell you how representative they are, but they exist. I know a few, personally, well enough to know if they mean it or not.

The friend I have who converted, however, is not a moderate... the whole thing was like watching a train wreck really. I knew who they were, the ones converting him, you see.

The day of 9/11 my friend was saying that no Muslim could have done it, within weeks he was talking of a conspiracy by Jews....

#69 Gabriel Hanna

Have you tried Camel Prophet's experiment on them?

Ed Moran abu breaking the rules

Amen.........good post

#65 Ed Moran

Thank you, that's a great article.

#65 Ed Moran abu Philosemite

Great article, thanks. I agree with all of it, except that I would also add the point that the controversy around the "Passion" was skillfully manufactured by Gibson himself.

Those Jewish leaders attacking The Passion are thus making a serious strategic error. They're crying wolf, and hurting their own cause by pointing to anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist and thus distracting attention from real and rising evils where they do.

And perhaps that was the point.

OT

A word from Catholic theologians specialing in Jewish-Catholic relations. Gibsonophiles won't like it.

----

THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST

Comment by The Rev. John T. Pawlikowski,

Director of the Catholic-Jewish Studies Program,
Catholic Theological Union, Chicago, and
President, The International Council of Christians & Jews

26 February 2004

Our team of Catholic scholars has agreed unanimously that the script of Mel Gibson's film, The Passion of the Christ , presented one of the most potentially anti-Jewish interpretations of Jesus' death that we had encountered in our many years of constructive engagement in the Christian -Jewish dialogue.

The scholars, members of the Bishops' Advisory Committee on Catholic-Jewish Relations in the USA, decided to review the shooting script when it became available to us in the spring because of the claim by a spokesperson for Mr. Gibson that it conformed with the Catholic Bishops' Guidelines on Passion Plays.

Upon examination of the script, we unanimously agreed this was far from true, even though we insisted that Mr. Gibson has every right to make whatever film he wants. We are not trying to censor him. But the questions raised by the basic theme of the film remain very serious.

The main story line focused on an evil cabal of Jews, increasing to a large crowd by the time Jesus is dragged into the Great Hall of the Temple. They relentlessly pursued Jesus until they were able to blackmail a weak-kneed Pontius Pilate into ordering his execution.

Such an account contrasts sharply with modern biblical and historical scholarship as well as with the documents issued by the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations in the past several decades. Historically, such an account has proven toxic. It led over the centuries to the persecution and killing of millions of Jews at the hands of Christians, something for which Pope John Paul II expressed profound regret during his historic visit to Jerusalem.

Pilate was not a weak leader of the Roman Imperial government that controlled Palestine at the time. Quite the contrary. He was a cruel tyrant whom Rome removed from office a few years after the crucifixion for being overly tyrannical, even by Rome's cruel standards. There is simply no way a group of Jewish leaders could have blackmailed Pilate into doing their will.

The majority of Jews at the time were united with Jesus in their common suffering under Roman authority. The Romans were principally responsible for Jesus' death. That is the clear teaching of contemporary scholarship as well as church documents.

But Mr. Gibson has continued to blame the Jewish leadership in defiance of this scholarly and ecclesiastical consensus. That's the heart of the difficulty with the film. That was the central message of the shooting script we examined, and nothing basically has changed in that regard in the versions Mr. Gibson has shown in recent months.

Particularly disturbing is the way Mr. Gibson has manipulated the use of Matthew 27:25, the infamous blood libel charge through which the Jewish leader supposedly called a curse upon all future generations of Jews.

This text has been used over the centuries by Christians to keep Jews miserable and marginal in society and at times even to justify their death. Mr. Gibson included this questionable text in his original script, deleted it because he claimed Jews would have his throat, put it back and now suggests it may be removed in the final version. Such insensitivity to how much suffering this text has caused Jews over the centuries is deeply disturbing.

The film also raises a question about Mr. Gibson's ultimate agenda in making it. It is now clear that for the past several years he has been campaigning against the reforms introduced by the Second Vatican Council and against modern biblical scholarship. So the film also presents a challenge to the basic teachings of Vatican II, including its historic Declaration on the Church and the Jewish people.

Likewise, it poses questions for the Catholic Church's endorsement of modern biblical scholarship as integral for an authentic literal understanding of sacred scripture since Pope Pius XII's encyclical on the subject in 1943. Mr. Gibson appears to flaunt church teaching. Therefore, it is surprising that certain Catholic groups and church leaders who pride themselves on defending orthodoxy see no problem in his rejection of recent church teaching.

Finally, the film raises questions in its excessive use of violence. Jesus suffered greatly. But the depiction by Mr. Gibson goes far beyond what is in the Gospels. Jesus' final suffering and death should never be separated from his ministry, which is largely the case in The Passion of The Christ.

Despite the serious problems with the film, Mr. Gibson has provided the churches with a teaching moment. Cardinal William Keeler of the Baltimore Archdiocese has led the effort to use this controversy to enhance the understanding of Christians about who was principally responsible for Jesus' death.

Now is not the time to simply criticize the film, though criticize we must. It is also a time for Jews and Christians to forge new bonds through study and honest discussion. If that happens, as is beginning to be the case, Mr. Gibson inadvertently may have provided an opportunity for a new intensification of Christian Jewish understanding.

--

Anyone still want to defend this crap?

I whole heartedly believe that 9/11 was "gods" work, to reveal what a backwards twisted blood cult of death Islam is. On 9/11, "God" revealed to the world that the bigoted murderers knows as "muslims" are a threat to all man kind. Now we must heed "God's" warning, and destroy our enemies before they destroy us.

OT- Ed (talking about myself in the third person is so Bob Dole, but hey) may not get his HOU area birthday weekend severe outbreak, as 12Z GFS shows most energy well north, and 700 mb winds/RH suggest capping inversion

AVN suggests far NE Texas, eastern OK and Arkansas do better

Latest ETA suggests HOU may not even get garden variety storms tomorrow

I can actually get model generated skew-T soundings at this web site, which is an even better tool for seeing severe potential, but it has that goofy frames thing that keeps me from linking to a particular city's Skew-T

Looking at the soundings, looks like DFW misses out on really good severe, as the dryline passes just after daybreak, when solar heating is minimal. Plus, moisture return isn't great. SHV around dinner time is the pick city for any tornadoes, as ETA skew-T shows 400 m^2/s^2 helicity, although CAPE of 300 is not favorable, although ETA may be slightly underestimating moisture return.

Now, By Tuesday night, GFS shows a powerhouse of a closed low moving into the Baja.
By Wednesday evening, the deep cutoff is still over Sonora, spitting out short waves, and moisture return should be greater.

By Thursday, position of upper low, surface low and 700 mb winds suggest capping shouldn't be a problem, and much of Texas could see flooding rains and severe weather.

ETA model only goes out to 84 hours, but seems to support the AVN fairly well with a powerful closed low near Ensenada and the 72 hour (12Z run of UKMET only goes out 72 hours) also seems to agree

BTW, The experts at the National Centers for Environmental Prediction's Storm prediction Center in Norman, OK agree my southeast Texas severe odds tomorrow don't look good.

Mardukhai #74:

The Gibson-Klan looked for a fight, and they got one. I predict a weepy Mel Gibson trip to Canossa, within a couple of weeks.

I am a secular, so once the RCs get into this major, I'm out.

By the way, Hutton Gibson referred to Pope John-Paul II, as: "the koran kisser." I'm anti-islam too, but I'm not throwing in with these fucks.

Not sure if it has been posted here yet, but good news:

aFriend posted that the nasty sign in Colorado has been taken down.

Other Christians showed up in droves and shamed that guy into taking it down, peacefully.

Any moderate Muslims want to take a cue from that?????

Camel Prophet #41 - thanks for the links. Funny how two people can read the same material and have different interpretations.

For instance, you use the "Taliban revival" link to warn against US aid to Pakistan. What I see is:
- "700 Taliban fighters — all ethnic Pashtuns — have crossed the border from the Pakistani cities of Peshawar and Quetta"
- "We arrested two [Taliban members] a month ago and they told us Pakistani colonels told them to destabilize Afghanistan"
- "the Taliban's strategy is to make Zabul too difficult for the central government and international aid agencies to work"

Since Pakistan basically created the Taliban it is not surprising that there are continuing ties. I'm sure those 'Pakistani Colonels' are worried about their careers (or dead). The article also mentions a planned Spring Taliban offensive - bring em on - that will mean 700+ dead or captured enemy.

The campaign in Afghanistan is not over, but your link also included some good news (despite not having used nukular weapons on 20+ million people):
- "I killed two Taliban commanders" ("Mohammed Azghar, a former member of the Taliban who is now a soldier working for the local government")
- "The current one (Zabul Governor) ... is a former Taliban member who is trying to persuade district commissioners allied to the militants to support the central government instead."
- "The Americans, on the other hand, are attempting to win the hearts of Afghans with the promise of reconstruction. Next month, the military plans to set up a provincial reconstruction team in Qalat, the local capital. The unit will consist of up to 100 people and provide security and aid to rebuild roads, schools and clinics."

Here's a humorous situation, CP and Hutton Gibson are allied in opposition to parts of Vatican II :-)
"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God... they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God."
[Link: www.vatican.va...]

A phrase keeps running through my mind over and over.

"By their fruits you shall know them."

Now if I could only remember who said it....

OT
Car Swarm Time!

#80 Paladin

"By their fruits you shall know them."

How true. Arafat and Qadaffi are a microcosm.

#65 Ed Moran

what have you done? We DON"T need a second thread on MG. Let it go, or go to that thread. Please.

#65 Ed Moran abu Philosemite

Unfortunately this issue is not widely covered by the media and the Jewish organizations also fail to address it.
I won't say anything about MG's movie itself, but all the outrage around it revolves around the question if it's anti-Semitic or not, while there's a flood of productions in Arab countries that are unquestionably, overtly and brutally anti-Semitic, plus old Nazi trash like the "Prortocoles" make it to the top of best-sellers lists. And this is the real danger!

Gabriel Hanna,

Moderate Muslims exist, even liberal ones. I know this for a fact.

So do I. However, all of them are non-practising... apostate if you will, including the Iranian couple in San Diego that told me that Islam was the worst thing to ever happen to Persia. "Worse than Alexander the Great?" I asked. The response was an indignant snort.

This deceitful Islamikazi mullah should be barred from re-entering Australia. Jihadist Islam is a cancer upon this planet. Keep them bottled up in their shithole Muslim nations, same as the Paleostinians are kept from easy access to Israel.

From Barking Pumpkin's link:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — An Israeli helicopter fired missiles at a car in the Gaza Strip (search) on Saturday, killing three people — including an Islamic Jihad militant — and wounding 15 others, doctors said.

One of the dead was identified by his family as Islamic Jihad militant Ayman Dahdouh. The other two victims were not immediately identified.

Even FoxNews can't escape the PC affliction.

No more MG comments from me on this thread.

Just put los ni&ntildeos down for a nap, and may soon head to my won bedroom for eyelid integrity testing.

Bourgeois Reactionary:
All the Vatican says on islam, is that they are monotheist, and claim Abraham as founder. The Holy Sede was just being nice to those fanatic, savage, carpet humping jihad-monkeys.

Proud Albertan #60:
Muslims practice islam quietly, where they are in the minority. When they have the numbers, jihad ceases to be a "personal struggle." You have enough material to submit your story to one of your local papers. They could publish it.

Ed Moran the-Meteorological-Wrath-of-Texas:
Is that museum on the Killer-Hurricane (8,000 dead) worth a look?

#45 Ed

Thanks. I also have much to say about the film before having seen it myself, but for the same reason you state, will not participate in posts about it.

+Photios

Way OT
I'm very glad to see that there is now a Mozilla browser that loads LGF properly. Get Mozilla 1.6 here. Firefox 0.8 (available at the same link) does too, although I am having trouble getting it to properly load the Java plug-in.

#91 Photios

Thanks for the Mozilla heads-up. I hope it will also run my school e-mail, but I doubt it. . . .

The movie aside, here's MG in the interview with Peggy Noonan:
"War is horrible. The Second World War killede tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps...In the Ukraine, several million starved to death..."

Now if that "Some of them were Jews in concentration camps" is not a deliberate trivialization and shrugging off of the unique aims of the final solution, what is it?

Is he an anti-Semite? Well, if he talks like an anti-Semite...

I have to agree with Hitchens (whom you may dislike, but he's not stupid and often--as with Clinton--is on target): "So let us not be euphemistic about what is staring us in the face."

And speaking of that little matter, when will our leadership wake up to what is staring us in the face from Islam? Is it "the next 9-11" or "never?" Or does anyone predict a better answer?

typo: "killed"

Even FoxNews can't escape the PC affliction.

It isn't "PC" that makes them behave in this racist fashion. It is a disgusting mixture of bribery and extortion, where muslims threaten to cut media access for anyone that doesn't tow their jew hating propaganda line, and big media goes out of their way to be kind to the murdering muslim fascists, so that they are chosen to conduct the next exclusive sit down with Yasshole Terrorfat. That has NOTHING to do with political correctness. Quite the contrary.

If you are already in Galveston and visiting the Strand, yes. Mainly a movie and a gift-shop. Also near an old Bethlehem jack-up rig (The Ocean Star) that has been converted to an offshore oil museum. (I use to drill offshore oil wells before I got married). Good food/shopping on/near the Strand, also. OT, must have been a fair number of Jews in GLS (one of my hurricane books, "Isaac's Storm" mentions the efforts of a local rabbi to aid storm refugees) as there is a Hebrew cemetary there.

If you are in the general vicinity, may I also recommend an afternoon at the Kemah boardwalk.

AG the Angry Houstonian lives not far from there, and perhaps AG, Mrs. AG, and AG Jr. or AG-ette (not sure which) would offer to serve as a tour guide.

Time for the eyelid integrity test.

And speaking of that little matter, when will our leadership wake up to what is staring us in the face from Islam? Is it "the next 9-11" or "never?" Or does anyone predict a better answer?

Very good question. Would anyone here be surprised to hear that muslims in America have lists of jews they'd like to kill? They openly claim that Jews were one of the main targets at WTC. How many other jew targets do the muslims here in America have targeted?

From Barking Pumpkin's (#81) link

The car was pulverized, and Palestinian security officials strained to keep order around the scene as surging crowds jumped on the wreckage and called for revenge.

...

Some gunmen at the morgue were crying.

And, where have I heard the name Ayman Dahdouh before?

+Photi

#30 Martel-Sobieski

Excellent post.

And I presume that the "Martel" is the one of Poitiers, since I know who Sobieski was.

As for #85, Spiny Norman--no, I was speaking of practicing, modereate/liberal Muslims; I make no claims for them being representative, only that they exist. They are not Arabs--maybe that's a datum you can use.

As for Thom's question about the Camel Prophet Litmus Test, I am not ever going to pretend I am an anti-Semite. The people I speak of know me well enough already to know what I think; I did not insult them by subjecting them to a litmus test before getting to know them.

I evaluate their views the way I evaluate anyone else's. When you've known people for years, you get to know something about what they think.

It's been my experience that anti-Semitic Muslims don't dissemble their true feelings very well.

Some info on Halily, the Aussie Muslim leader
[Link: www.ci-ce-ct.com...]

As for Mel Gibson's movie, I'll be seeing it today, most likely, and if I care to comment I will do so on the thread currently designated as the Passion thread. Verb. sap.

I would post again the links to muslim gang-rapes and crime in Australia (Sydney in particular), but I'm being lazy.

Search for yourselves on Google (hint: they tend to call it "pack-rape" Down Under.

However, all of them are non-practising... apostate if you will, including the Iranian couple in San Diego that told me that Islam was the worst thing to ever happen to Persia.

Seems as good a time as any to repost this photo, for the enjoyment of newbies.

And also to link to Faith Freedom, an ex-Muslim site with a large Persian contingent. Going by some of the things I've read on that site, there appears to be some grassroots effort in Iran to revive a sort of "Reform Zoroastrianism. And... hey, wait a sec...

     HEY, CHARLES, OR SOMEONE!

It looks like Faith Freedom could use some pro bono tech support, STAT:

FFI forum, News Page and the Indonesian site are down. I am sorry to say I do not know why. FFI does not make money and donations are virtually inexistent. I do not have much technical know how and I can’t afford hiring a Webmaster. Everything in this site is done by volunteers

One of our Webmasters deleted the forum and the News Page accidentally. We lost part of the old forum. He created a new one. There was another volunteer who knew how to make the News Page work. Now I can’t reach either one of them.

A couple of days ago our Indonesian site was overloading the server and because of that we were suspended. Now I don’t know who is doing what and why the forum is suspended this time.

For their own security these friends use email addresses in their anti Islam activities that they do not use ordinarily. If they don’t check their emails I can’t reach them.

If you have technical expertise and want to volunteer please contact me. I think this site is doing a great job in awakening the Muslims and non-Muslims about the reality of Islam. On average we have about 70.000 visitors per month. We really should reach at least a hundred times more people to make political impact. I am giving everything I can to this site. But I can't do miracles. If you also believe this site is important, please do whatever you can to support it.

To Gabriel Hanna...

Of course you are right.....there are moderate Muslims....but what I am saying is that Islam in itself is not moderate in the least........there are many fine Muslims that simply take the nice parts of the Quran and traditions and focus on those.........but too take Islam fully and literally, then we have a problem!

To Camel Prophet....

Sadly you are right......the moment the Islamic numbers gain ascendancy or even a decent minority status like in France, then we start seeing the True Face of Islam as it has been practiced for 1400 years....

Me and my ex muslim buddies talk about this stuff all the time........I have learned much from them indeed.....

I just hope and pray that we can awaken the masses that remain so ignorant or apathetic about this Ideology?!!

Thanks

P.S.

Good to see you Photios...........I'll be going to the movie tomorrow night too see what it's all about.....my wife has seen it twice and has nothing but good things to say..........but a Dear Jewish friend of ours here in Calgary saw it and she told us that she couldn't sleep the whole night afterwards.........she was deeply troubled by it and her and my wife have been exchanging emails discussing this film!!

Interesting the different reactions..

Devonator

#104 Throbert McGee
Thanks for linking to an informative site, that faithfreedom site.
They provided an interesting article on jihadi terrorism
[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]

#105 Proud Albertan

I'm afraid of two things - the first is Islamists strengthening their hold in Western countries and the second is that non-Muslims will start butchering Muslims.

#105 Proud Albertan

To be sure, taking all of Islam to heart is not good for one's sanity or non-murdering-potential.

Then again, there's a lot in the New and Old Testaments (moreso the old, really) that modern Christians and Jews have also backed away from. We don't kill witches (so they want to dance around a maypole... who cares?) and many (unfortunately, not all) have backed away from saying we should kill homosexuals.

So let's remember that the problem isn't the religion so much as its members inability to let go of the parts of it that no longer fit the modern world. And the fact that those members form a majority of Muslims, unlike their equivalents in Christianity and Judaism.

official Islam, a tribal political system refashioned into a lethal ideology, is unalterably opposed to the modern world of democracy, science and individual freedom.

-- Salim Mansur, professor of political science at the University of Western Ontario, and a person who is of the Muslim faith as a personal faith, not as a political totalitarian lethal ideology.
[Link: www.paktoday.com...]

He distinguishes between official Islam and the beliefs of those individual Muslims like himself who dissent from official Islam.

I couldn't tell you numbers. I'll leave that to the experts. But there is one guy -- Salim Mansur -- who dissents from official Islam, but considers himself a Muslim. And he doesn't say that this horrendous branch of Islam is a fringe -- he admits that he is talking about
official Islam.

If I understand correctly the implications of this, the moderates are to be found in the fringes of Islam, not anywhere involving official Islam. The Aussie Muslim leader is of course part of official Islam.

He's right.
It was God's work.That's what it took for the US to actually start killing those death cult bastards. And if it wasn't for 9/11, we wouldn't be continuing to eliminate them now.
I think it was also a blessing in that it stopped the country from the path it was on and is now getting back on track. These a**holes running around bashing the president and claiming they want to "take America back" as president have it all wrong (not a surprise to anyone here).
We are finally starting to take America back from
their elite clutches.
Yes, thank God for the sacrifices of those poor innocent people who gave their lives to start this process (and with the Lord's continued blessing - not in vain) and thank God for GW to have gotten God's message and , of course, thank God for the sacrifices of all of our military soldiers who have made it all possible.

Some good points here people...

To New Kid................

Yes your concerns are legitamate........I agree when there is another 9-11 and lets say it is a WMD, I think you could start seeing some killings of Muslims and burning of mousques in North America..........granted I have no problem with killing Islamic terrorists whether here or across the sea but what we might see is a nightmare and yes the Islamists are gaining control here in the West...In
America, it might be a little harder........but in europe, Islam or literal orthodox Islam holds sway across the Islamic world..........and chillingly so.........and just wait until Muslims start pissing off Germans and other euros......I believe even in Europe, the masses will have a breaking point....

To Sub Version...

I hear what you are saying Sub but to be fair and to I think practice good exegesis on the Tanach, some of the harsh laws were only for a certain place and time.........In otherwords, they are descriptive........now lets contrast that with some of the nastiness in the Quran and Hadiths, these teachings are open ended for all time and are prescriptive........hence in these days you do not see Jews and Christians who take the Hebrew Bible literally stoning rebellious youths and burning witches .............but on the other hand, for 1400 years, across the Islamic world and all sects, you have had the nasty aspects of Muhammed's teachings put into place.....be they the killing of those that leave Islam, beating of wives, raping of captured women, slavery, forced conversion of Pagans ie Hindus and Buddhists, the racist dhimmi of Jews and Christians and on it goes.....

So I think I would have to respectfully disagree that the problem is quite indeed the religion of Islam......or a literal practice of such......

Thanks

Devonator

[Link: www.wnd.com...] Hil Clinton take credit for her husbands "contributions" to the military

The article then details the 8 regular and 2 reserver divisions eliminated and, of course, she mentions not Billy's having to solicit oral sex from interns and cashier officers for the slightest offense against PC but not having time to take a national security briefing.

Any capability added during their years were despite their efforts not because of them.

I disagree with most LGF-ites, I don't think Islam as Islam is the threat; I think Islam as practicec by a great number of Muslims is the threat.

But the TRUE threat facing Europe is the Stalinist crab-monster army that is invading Norway as we speak.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

If the Stalinist crab-mosters convert to Islam, will things get worse? I think they will eat Muslims just as happily as they eat anything else.

In her Brookings speech, Clinton also said she thought women in Iraq were better off under the Saddam Hussein regime because of their participation in the public arena.

This woman has no honor. But isn't that typical of a Clinton? If you haven't done it yet, read Dereliction of Duty. It's a quick read and a must read.

#113 Gabriel Hanna. you say

I disagree with most LGF-ites, I don't think Islam as Islam is the threat;

it may be, because you do not understand Islam.

Well, ploome, it may be that you are the one who does not understand Islam, and that is why you think Islam, as Islam, is the threat.

Your post in #115 is not substantive debate--I understand how you feel, but I disagree and your statement is not evidence that would change that stance.

And you fail utterly to address the threat of the Stalinist crab monsters.

Come on, man, the COMMUNIST CRAB-MONSTERS ARE COMING!

Fight the REAL enemy, I say. Muslims are at least VERTEBRATES.

i need garlic butter

ed moran ... & others ...

Brilliance, I just learned (again, depressingly for the dozenth time in the last few years) comes from the mouth of babes. Or, in this case, my children. I was just explaining the translation, "2900 died / came from the god", and one child said, "well, then why doesn't our God get rid of the bad one?"

And that is just it, isn't it. I know of no other significant religion today that defines all unbelievers as infidels, and espouses enslavement, punishment, taxation and death "as the devout Muslim wishes", all justified by the "holy" words of an utterly vile crackpot.

I still don't have a politically neutral answer to give the kid. Working on one though.

GoatGuy

J.D. (#114)

This woman has no honor.

Absolutely none. If she ever becomes president of the US I'm considering pulling an Alex Baldwin in protest. Did he leave yet?

But isn't that typical of a Clinton?

Yes, they're scum as far as I'm concerned, and to think that I used to like Bill Clinton. I'm ashamed of myself, I was so blind.

#119 zulubaby

If a Liberal Democrat, or Gordon Brown, is elected in the UK, I'm pulling an Alec Baldwin for my own safety.

zulubaby (#119)

If she ever becomes president of the US I'm considering pulling an Alex Baldwin in protest. Did he leave yet?

No. The lyin' S of a B is still here.

to think that I used to like Bill Clinton.

Well, you weren't alone there! I never did, but I wasn't in the majority back then.

#116 Gabriel Hanna
Here is an article by Salim Mansur that draws the line between personal-faith Islam and political Islam. Political Islam is a totalitarian ideology that focuses on power.
[Link: www.paktoday.com...]

Political Islam has captured the establishment and institutions of Islam, and has become the official Islam. While we in the West are averse to opposing a religion, it needs to be regarded not as a religion, but as an ideology, comparable to Nazism or Fascism or Communism, and uses some of the same totalitarian ideas.

9 Elazabeth

Moderate muslims (MM), are simply those who prefer to let Jihadis do the dirty work. The moderates though provide the cover, both physical and intellectual, for said Jihadis to function in the West. The MM also provide financial sustainance.

Meanwhil in Israel, one is beginning to see that Iran, PALis and others are actively recruiting martyrs among Israeli Arabs. Such a scenario is also occurring in the West. Sooner or later we will have to clear this whole nest out. Soldier and worker wasps alike.

27 quark2

The price that western culture will end up paying will be horrendous. The price will see much of what we are so complacent, assumptive and apathetic about .....gone.

If Islamic immigration to the West is not reversed, then I'm afraid Western culture and civilisation will die. Slowly at first but gaining pace. It already is dying, as we squander our resources in fighting the enemy within. Resources that could have been more productively used are now used for Homleland Security etc. Thus the mere Islamic presence in the West, is weakening our civilisation. In addition, with muslims responsible for greater crime then any other community, it is further draing/weakening our society.

The Danes though, have started the process of re-asserting Western culture. I pointed this out a year ago. Now Holland is bringing out new legislation that will require immigrants to sit an examination which will assess their Dutch linguistic skills and suitability for staying in Holland. The test will cost $6000(??) upfront; failure will attract a fine and will have to be re-taken every year. This test will apply to all immigrants, even if they have lived in Holland for decades and have Dutch citizenship. It will also apply to the Dutch born children of nationalised immigrants. Exceptions will be for European nationals and other Western countries such as the US, Australia and Canada. This exception is ostensibly, not to deter multi-nationals.

113 Gabriel Hanna

I disagree with most LGF-ites, I don't think Islam as Islam is the threat; I think Islam as practicec by a great number of Muslims is the threat.

I agree. I dont think Marxism or Fascism is a threat either. It is just communism or Fascism as practised by a great number of the believers, is the threat.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic. If you are, then apologies.

9-11 is "Gods work" only in the sense that it opened our collective eyes to the dire necesseity of eradicating Islam from our entire society, and bringing the swift kick of justice to the ass of Islamic society abroad.

And I'll be in the front rank of the torch wielding mob should it ever happen again.

122 EE

While we in the West are averse to opposing a religion, it needs to be regarded not as a religion, but as an ideology, comparable to Nazism or Fascism or Communism, and uses some of the same totalitarian ideas.

Denmark, Holland and France already see Islam as a very dangerous expansionist political ideology.

Islam is not just about expanding imn geographic terms but its main intent is to encroach into every home. Making Islam pre-eminent is the goal, and not converting everybody to Islam. In fact that would be self defeating, as Muslims require infidels to pay the Jizya.

zulubaby #119 - re: Bill Clinton; some people in DC used to turn their backs to his motorcades in protest.

DP, ploome and others, I am indeed being tongue-in-cheek about the Stalinst crab monster threat, being greater than the threat from Islam.

But I think a separation of ideological, terror-sponsoring, Sharia-imposing IslamISM from the religion of Islam is meaningful and possible; Nazism and Communism were not religions and had no other dimension to them than ideology. Granted, for some they have been a substitute religion.

There was a time in the West when heresy and treason were conflated; that time, in large parts of the Islamic world is here now. There was a time when Christians killed Jews; and a time when Christians killed large numbers of other Christians over abstruse theological points. Christianity reformed. So may Islam, if the ideological component is shown to be bankrupt by its utter and humiliating defeat at the hands of the West.

But to my mind lumping all Muslims--Sunni with Shiite with Sufi with Wahabi, Indonesian with Algerian with Albanian with Turkish; is not meaningful.

They all have things in common, you couldn't call them all Muslim if you didn't, but they don't all buy into the ideology.

BTW, I read LGF daily, I see all the stuff that is posted--you can spare me your links to Muslims spewing hate, as I have read them already. I concede that a lot of Muslims do that or approve of it; probably a majority do.

Doesn't mean Islam is going to be that way forever, anymore than Christianity was going to be.

It is an embarrasment and shame for all decent Australians to refer to this despicable man as an Aussie. Firstly, he is the very antithesis of what Australia believes in and fights for. Secondly, he isn't Australian, quite simply because he isn't Australian- he was born in Egypt and only came here in 1982. Not long after, Bob Hawke, then Australian PM, tried having him deported, but his efforts were thwarted by other Labor Ministers who were after the Muslim vote in Sydney.

See Tim Blair for more.

Proud Albertan #105

Good to see you too, Devon. I'm happy that you are still involved.

+Photi

#124 / #125 DP.

This is a false distinction. Trying to separate "Islam" from "Islam as practiced by a great number of the believers" is nonsense.

"Islam" does not exist as some nebulous set of memes in the metaphysical ether. Islam is a specific set of beliefs and practices. All who practice it or claim allegiance to it are tainted by it to whatever degree they do so.

There is no difference in essential quality between a "Moderate Muslim" and a militant Islamikaze, there is only a difference in the degree of militancy.

#123

I can understand how you might feel that Western Culture is "weakened" to the degree that they are infiltrated by the muslim devils, but I must respectfully disagree.

Oftentimes a culture must be defined as much by what it is not as by what it is. Western liberlaism has striven to blur all distinctions between "Western" and "Indigenous" cultures by asserting "Moral or Cultural Relativity" by way of the current fad of "Multiculturalism." THIS is what has truly weakened the West. THIS is what is responsible for our youth identifying more with outsiders and radical notions of liberalism than with the glories of what the West has built, and which they enjoy (and destroy) without ever realizing how truly magnificent an edifice it is.

I feel that muslim subversion will have a converse effect. It will force us as a society and a culture to once again define ourselves in terms of what we WILL NOT accept, instead of as accepting of everything and anything as long as it pisses off Mommy and Daddy.

Even the densest Lcube will at some point realize that the muslim devils are against every liberty they hold dear, and want to kill them in the bargain.

Gabriel HAnna

But I think a separation of ideological, terror-sponsoring, Sharia-imposing IslamISM from the religion of Islam is meaningful and possible;

of course it is, in your mind only

its called projection.

Islam , means submission... to Allah, to sharia..

what you call terror, Islam considers fighting in the way of Allah, against the aggression and humiliating treatment of muslims by the non believer,

The non believer, who will not allow Islam to be supreme, and will not be humbled and pay the jizya, is to be killed or enslaved.

There is no compulsion in Islam, the non believer makes the choice......submit to ISlam, become a dhimmi, or die.

The non believer makes the choice. There is no compulsion in Islam.

but they don't all buy into the ideology.

by the way....

anyone know of any popular muvement in an Islamic country to give equal rights to non Muslims?

I dont know what happened to 134....:-(

the question omitted was....

How do you know "they don't all buy into the ideology."?

131 Photios

welcome back. :-)

Gabriel Hanna,

#69,
"Moderate Muslims exist, even liberal ones. I know this for a fact."

Do the moderates you know attend a mosque regularly? Are they fluent in arabic? Can they read the koran in arabic?
Would you happen to know anything about the imams of the particular individuals which you describe as moderate? What do these clerics preach in their sermons/khutbas?

#129,
"you can spare me your links to Muslims spewing hate, as I have read them already"

Would you know of any links to Muslims spewing love? In particular, to clerics with religious stature preaching equal rights for kufr (not dhimmitude)?

#128,
"But I think a separation of ideological, terror-sponsoring, Sharia-imposing IslamISM from the religion of Islam is meaningful and possible"

Sharia is central to islam. The spread of sharia is a central goal of islam. There is no such thing as separation of sharia from islam. Nor is it realistic to try to intellectually separate the muslim goal of spreading sharia (through whatever means are practical), from the religion of islam. The distinction which EE makes through his link to salim mansour, between political and ideological islam, is really a distinction between an apostate version of islam and the 'one true faith'.

#128 Gabriel Hanna

If you read that recently intercepted letter to Al Qa'eda you'd note that Al Qa'eda lumps Sunnis in with Wahabis and considers them true Muslims... The Shia were refered to as traitorous infidels or some such.

But at Memri.org and other places I've read equally horrifying sermons from major Mosques from each of the main three sects. So, in Iran, imams are calling for the destruction of Jews, Americans, Christians and Infidels just as Wahabis do everywhere all the time and Sunnis have in Iraq (I remember this from long before Gulf War II).

".... and told his audience not to be surprised if one day a muezzin called out “Allah is Great!” from the “top of the White House”."

I'm growing more and more pessimistic as time goes by -- I think there's a very good chance of this happening. I don't think we'll get our shit together in time. Even if we have another 9/11. The multi-culti PC crowd will continue to tie our hands by keeping the West from reaching the consensus we need to act decisively.

The key is that, even though neither side is monolithic, the Muslims can and will close ranks more solidly than we will.

I agree it's Allah's work. Those three thousands were martyred, so that Allah could use American hands to punish those despicable bigots such as Osama, the Talibans, Saddam, and sundry militants. Allah martyred these three thousand people to wake up America to watch out for vipers and posionous snakes who called themselves Muslims before they claimed more lives. If Allah wasn't watching out for America, how could you explain only three thousand instead of thirty thousand died. There were more than thirty thousand people in those two buildings. If the buildings had collapsed sooner, many more people would have perished. Allah knew if only a few hundred people died, Americans would not have the resolve to purse the murderers. They haven't done much in the 80's and 90's after all those attacks. Allah is tired that his name is invoked in vain by blood thirsty mullahs and despots so he arranged for the Americans to go into Afganistan and Iraq to liberate his people. I wonder what he has arranged for the Iranians, the Syrians, and the Arabs.

If you define Islam to be congruent with Islamist ideology, of course you will say that those who don't buy into the ideology aren't "true Muslims". But you're just arguing in a circle.

As for those who ask me, are these really and truly Muslims, what do their clerics say, etc:

For one, I don't know who speaks Arabic and who doesn't, one of my friends at least was trying to learn it (he's since gone on to Caltech and I don't kknow how much time he has for Arabic). As I said, my friends are not Arabs. But Arabs are not congruent with Muslims--although I gather they act as though they seem to think so.

As for clerics, there are no clerics at the mosque in my town, to my knowledge. There are Muslims of all stripes there, but last I heard some of the Saudis split off and formed their own mosque somewhere else because they thought the bulk of Muslims here weren't conservative enough. The friend I had who converted to Islam went with them, to our dismay. He and I didn't get along too well after 9/11.

Full disclosure: I was a guest at the mosque on occasion.

But it doesn't matter how much any of you argue with me about people you've never met whom I have known for years. I mean, nothing is going to come of that. How could it?
I don't dispute that Muslims by and large are not doing their bit against the terrorists. What I dispute is that it must somehow be inherent to Islam. I also dispute that Muslims I know personally, whom you don't, must conform to your stereotype and I'm just too stupid to know it.

As for Islam REQUIRING sharia, well, there is a set of laws prescribed in the Torah, is there not, with pains and penalties not acceptable today? Judaism accomodated, did it not? The scriptures say a lot of things. (It was my understanding that the "eye for eye" bits were intended, not to be harsh or cruel, but to limit the type and degree of vengeance it was acceptable to take out on someone who had wronged you.) The New Testament prescribes behaviors that very few Christians perform. I see no reason why Islam must be inherently different.

Know what one of my friends said about the Bali bombing? That it made him mad to see Muslims saying that whatever Muslims do must be right.

Doesn't matter. None of know him. I do. You can tell me he's a diabolically clever servant of Al Qaeda, and I'm just his tool and dupe.

Such things have been said of the members of another religion, after all. I myself reject it categorically; and I accuse no one of being a fifth columnist merely because they are of a minority faith in this country.

Anyway, well, at least some of my friends were observant Muslims. At least one was not. My closest friend among them--the one who said what he did about the Bali bombing--was the most observant, and actually lived in the mosque. The Saudis wouldn't allow him to speak in the mosque until he grew a beard. Which he was not genetically endowed to do. He thought the requirement was stupid and not justified by the Koran and said so. Nonetheless they insisted, and he tried, and when they saw he really couldn't grow much of a beard they relented, I think. Or maybe they'd split off by then. But, he wasn't Arab and they were, so they thought they had seniority or something.

It wasn't too long after 9/11 that I quit having anything to do with the Muslims I wasn't friends with. I didn't want to give trouble or get it. So I turned down further invitations to the mosque. In the meantime my Muslim friends have all left for one reason or another. I have Muslim acquaintances whom I don't care for, but with whom I have civil relationships.

128.

It an futile exercise to try to compare Islam with Chrisitanity or any other religion and make predictions that Islam will eventually reform just as Chrisitianity reformed.

Early Chrisitianity did not have the doctrine of burning witches, nor heretics. It was a PHASE in the history of that religion. Inquisitions were not part of Christian Doctrine, but a period in the dark ages of Europe.

Rennaisance, Humanism and Enlightenment periods overthew these older ages and ushered in the age of democracy, human rights and justice.

BUT, Islam has been the very same Barbarian religion ever since its inception.

India has continously seen Islamic barbarity for over 1000 years. Europe had succeeded in escaping from Islam when the Spaniards finished their reconquisita.

US has just experienced a pin prick on Sept 11 in comparison to what we had been receiving from Islam eversince the middle ages.
Excuse me, i am in no way trying to make that horrible terror-act look simple, but the truth is that it is just a line in a huge book of atrocities called Islam.

During the Crusades, the level of civilization between the West and Islam was equal.

While in the west, after every war or revolution, new ideas were adopted and the western civilization continously underwent radical changes.. like after the french revolution gave the 'Equality, Liberty and Fraternity', the American Revolution, both World Wars and such...

But Islam stayed as it was.. till now and will stay that way forever.. unless it suffers an utter defeat like Fascism.

That is the only way, Islamic terror will end. Otherwise, it will continue forever as long as Islam exists.

#146 Laxmi

I'm not predicting that Islam WILL reform. I am saying that it CAN reform. If Islam is, as what some here in this thread has said, inseparable from the sum of the behaviors of its member, then it MUST reform as soon as the bulk of Muslims agree that it must; either you believe that or you contradict yourself.

And I predicate that reform, as do you, on the utter defeat of ideological Islamism.

Doesn't matter, you know. I know what LGF'ers by and large think about Islam and while I disagree I think I understand their arguments, and sympathize.

But I felt I had to stick up for my friends. That's all.

In the meantime, while we jaw about Muslims the Communist crab-monsters ravage Norway unchecked.

Concerning the structure of the ummah, here are two possible theories mentioned by the father of the slain Daniel Pearl, which seem relevant to some of the discussion here
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

According to one theory, the struggle in Islam rages between the vast majority of peaceful, good Muslims who simply wish to live their lives alongside those who think and pray differently, and a tiny minority of Muslims, such as the Taliban and other extremists, whose fanaticism is in fact a rejection of true Islam.

A more pessimistic theory claims that the vast majority of Muslims sympathize deeply with bin Laden's ideology, both religiously and politically (though not engaging in actual violence), while moderate forces are but a thin intellectual veneer, lacking power, credibility, and leadership, and trying to lull the West into believing in the optimistic theory above.

Which of these do you think is closer to the actual situation?
Or do you have an even more extreme theory than either of these?

Daniel Pearl's father thinks that the actual situation is between the above two theories. What do you think?

#147

'm not predicting that Islam WILL reform. I am saying that it CAN reform.

Agreed!

Gabriel Hanna

at this point it seems like Muslims who are willing to take a public stand against the crimes of Islamic societies are rarer than four leaf clovers. Finding people who will agree with you when there's no one around to hear them is probably pretty easy if you don't press them too hard on basic issues like "do Iraelis have a right to protect themselves". Press on that one and you'll probably be met with stoney silence.

One last thought, to leave you with, while I retire for the day.

How many Iraqis, before the war, talked of how much they hated America and how confident they were that America would fail?

What percentage of the vote did Saddam get in his "election"?

In most Muslim countries, Muslims aren't too free to disagree publicly with government-backed clerics.

In this country, of course, Muslims are a Designated Victim Group, and their behavior is perfectly in keeping with that of all other Designated Victim Groups. I suppose I don't find CAIR to be any more disgusting than MEChA.

Once a Pakistani complained to me about he and his friends getting stopped by cops and questioned. He thought it unfair. I told him that if those cops did anything unreasonable they would be punished if he took them to court, and asked him what he thought would happen to him in Pakistan should he run afoul of Musharraf--and he agreed with that point. In America he had a much better chance of being treated justly by the government, and he knew it. Doesn't mean he ever stopped complaining though.

Anyway it doesn't matter what people will say in private when there's no reprocussions.

What matters is whether they will actually fight for such beliefs. I've been looking hard for such people and so far I can count all the ones I've found on the fingers of one hand.

#151, Joshua Scholar, once again you are trying to persuade me that your stereotype is more valid than my personal experience. You waste your time. There is no possible way that argument is going to fly, any more than it would fly with you if it were applied to Jews.

You don't know what kinds of conversations I've had with my friends, or the circumstances they took place in. But that didn't stop you from making up your mind about them sight unseen.

But feel free to repeat it to me if it makes you feel better. Does me no harm.

The trouble with the posters here at LGF is that too many of you go too far and indulge in anti-Muslim bigotry. You hurt the credibility of LGF by association when you post dumb s***. Believe it or not, there are moderate anti-al queda Muslims. Is Islam an absurd, even violence-promoting religion? Sure. Welcome to Religion 101. F*** with the islamists all you want but don't be a bigot. If you don't have one, pretend you have a regular friend who grew up muslim and they're reading your post - just act civilized.

Note to Charles: there is nothing wrong with censoring some of these (a minority) stupid posts. This site could be more influential and do more good if you did. You could be the anti-terror Drudge if you wanted, but you'll never get quoted and cited in the mainstream (even by me) until you do adequate housekeeping.

Joshua Scholar, you must understand I am talking about particular Muslims, known to me. I am not generalizing about Muslims and I have conceded that the available evidence indicates that the majority of Muslims have the opinions you describe them to have.

But that generalization DOES fail to describe particular Muslims, known to me and not to you. So, spare me the characterization of people I've known for years whom you've never met. It's a little insulting to me, I think, and quite so to them.

#152 Gabriel Hanna

I have news for you. If you read newspapers or listen to political speaches or (for God's sake) read the right Hadiths, you find out that Muslims come with built in "victim group" status.

God told them that Christians and Jews and Infidels will always plot against them and take advantage of them. It's a matter of faith, and you better keep saying it if you want people to beleive that you're pious...

If there's no plot against them, they'll make one up. No they'll make 90 of them up.

The perfect angry victim crowd. No wonder the revolutionary communist types like Chomsky can't stop slavering over all that resentment... Muslims have a store of resentment that they work hard to keep well stocked. So every revolutionary in the world wonders how to take advantage of it.

#157 Joshua Scholar, what you tell me is "news to me" is not news to me at all, as I pointed out before. If you're seeking to persuade me to agree with you, more argumentation and less condesencion would be a good place to start.

Fundamentally, you and I are on the same side here. I'm not sure you realize that yet. I am as staunch a foe of Islam militant as anyone on these boards--well, not Camel Prophet, I guess. I'd rather not see Mecca nuked--first.

I'm just saying, I know Muslims who aren't like people here sometimes say all Muslims are like. That's it. I'm not saying they're the norm, or even a significant percentage.

Just saying they exist. And I'm not surprised I get jumped on for it, I lurk about LGF quite a bit. It doesn't bother me, because I knew what I was letting myself in for before I posted it.

#156 Gabriel Hanna

You've had better luck talking to Muslims than I have.

I wish there was a liberal free speech/civil rights/women's rights/peace movement that had the balls to take on the societies that are the biggest problems...

But no, the only people left who claim to fight for these things are senile old men who's only thought left is that "Republicans are the enemy, right?" and rebelious wanker children who beleive every bit of foriegn sourced propaganda that comes their way and copy the form of the last movement (attack the american goverment) without understanding a single one of the principles and without bothering to understand the world...

We're suffering from a complete lack of serious people in any society.

Joshua Scholar-
Not to interrupt- but have you ever heard of Irshad Manji?

#158 Gabriel Hanna

You misunderstand. This is the internet. You can't assume that everyone in a chat has the same point of view...

I'm not arguing with you, I'm complaining.... I'm also poking you with a stick to see what happens.

I'm just a bored, whiny left wing hawk with no place to go on a Satuday night...

Also I'm worried as hell about what's going to happen after we elect Kerry and give up the war on terror.

I have this feeling that 50 to 100 years from now the US will be a burned out (as in heavily nuked or hit with bio) wreck as a result of our giving up on reforming the Middle East in 2004.

Even Bush has given up on democracy in Iraq because of pressure from the Fucking Democrats and Green types...

Shit, I used to believe the lefties actually stood for something. Now I want to spit whenever I hear my party's favorite speak...

That wasn't enough swearing to describe this situation &^%@^%#&^%@#&^%@&~!!@!!@@!!@!!**&a mp;@(*@!!!!

There that's better.

#159 Joshua Scholar; see, we 're on the same side.

But it is not the lack of serious people, that is the problem I think. It is the surfeit of people so serious that they lack perspective.

One of the characteristics of the el cubos is utter humorlessness.

The valuable serious people are in the military, or getting up and going to work every day. They're quiet.

But they vote.

#160 SBR

Yep, she's one of the fingers on one hand.

I really believe the muslim world is going to be reformed by an out lesbian liberal canadian. I'm sure it can't wait to listen to her... Sigh.

They're writing articles about her in all of the Arabic language newspapers.... No they're not.

Well, Joshua Scholar, I was once a left wing hawk. And I 'm now a right-libertarian hawk...

Sorry about the Kerry thing. But that's all Dean's fault.

Well, you can't say the voters won't have a choice. They will ,a choice between a Spet 10 candidate and a Sept 11 candidate.

And I would say it's probably a bit early to conclude that Bush is giving up on democracy in Iraq quite yet.

I am sure that by the end of this year there will be some sort of somewhat representative government in charge in Iraq.

#163 Joshua Scholar

Good point.
It's strange, I have one Muslim friend who is completely normal and two (former friends) who have become radicalized in an anti-American/Israel direction in the last few years.

btw I don't think Kerry will win, he's a fraud and people are already figuring that out. Plus they haven't even mainstreamed Viet Vets Against Kerry yet.

#162 Gabriel Hanna

By "serious" I didn't mean that we lack humorless people I meant that we lack careful, painfully honest, intelligent people. We have a generation of finger waggers.

The valuable serious people are in the military, or getting up and going to work every day. They're quiet.

But they vote.

I agree that the military seems to have more serious people and less wankers than before... That's a good thing. It would be nice if someone was speaking for that point of view and could make it intellectually acceptable.

Anyway I wish I believed that they vote. Bush is flailing. His failure is that he can't convince anyone of anything and isn't going to try... If we could swap him for Tony Blair, I'd be happy.

#165 SBR

Believe me those vets won't help around here in SF where we all think the Viet war (and the cold war) was a crime...

Half the country thinks the Cold War was a crime, and thinks Dr. Strange Love is history... Bush loses with that crowd BIG by playing up Viet nam, just as he loses with them BIG TIME beating on gay marriage.

You don't get it. Some of us hippies were going to vote Republican because of 9/11. Dividing us out is a bad move.

Anyway my cell phone (internet connection) is out of batteries. I wonder if this other battery is charged?

does "el cubos" mean Cubans?

Well, JS, your wish for Blair rather than Bush is more reflective, I think, of left-wingery than of hawkishness! But you and I would have to agree to disagree on that.

Bush, to my mind, has spent his political capital on the war. That's why he was so wobbly on amnesty and whatnot, I think. I hope it doesn't cost him too much--but people who care about the war, i think, will not vote for Kerry. He doesn't not stand for anything.

I'll tell you what, I hate to say it, but the Democrat I would prefer to see in the White House, if there had to be one, would have to be Bill Clinton. I think he would see this through. He would be all squishy and inclusive about it, but I think he would see it through.

I followed everything that happened in 1998, if he had done Iraq then I would have forgiven him everything else; I don't think he'd have started the war with Iraq--but if he were handed what we have now, in 2004, I think he would see it through.

The Moronic Mufti is an Australian citizen, he cannot be deported - unless, of course, he is stripped of his citizenship.

That won't happen, because there are too many idiot bleeding hearts in Sydney.

We can thank some prominent members of the ALP (equivalent of the Democrats in the US) for this - when the govt. of the day tried to deport him, it was vetoed. He was bringing in too many votes for their party - much more important than the security of the country.

He defended the Muslim gang rapists also. Their sickening activities were all the fault of 'Australian society', according to him.

Most people in Sydney loathe this hate-mongering bigotted clown - and its good that he's been caught at last. This time the 'taken-out-of-context' nonsense won't work. We know exactly what was said, and in which 'context'.

This makes it harder for the usual local leftie terrorist-aplogists to defend him.

I hope he keeps talking. The more he shoots his mouth off, the more he reveals himself for what he is. I think the Bible says this admirably :

"Thine own mouth condemneth thee"

I wouldnt take much notice of the announcement that federal police are taking no further action. I'm sure they will be watching him closely.

JS, "el cubo" is lizardoid speak for Liberal Loony Left, L cubed.

Probably not you.

As for the Cold War; well, everyone's a Cold Warrior now... and Bush isn't running on Vietnam, John Kerry is.

Running on one's war record worked for President Dole, did it not?

Few people question that Kerry was a brave officer.

it's what he's done since then.

Blair can deliver a speech that convinces his opponants to support him... Bush on the other hand can almost pronounce a long word correctly if he does it slowly enough.

We need someone who's not only willing to fight our enemies, but who can explain to the country why this is important, convince the unconvinced, and inspire us to accept sacrifices over the long haul.

Now, JS, since we've talked of Muslims and Democrats, what say you of the TRUE threat--Joesph Stalin's army of monster crabs?

(the reference is #113, if you missed it)

Anyway I notice that you didn't disagree with me on the hawk thing.

That's depressing. The hawk thing is based on guessing that, in the long run, the Muslims are going to use WMD on large numbers of innocents. That the hatred that makes killing Israeli children and old women on a bus a reason to dance in the streets and hand out candy applies to us as well.

We should start a pool, "Who will get hit with WMD first?"

The US, England, Italy, France etc...

Oh and "will the country that supplied the WMD ever be identified?" is another good question.

I wonder if we ever get nuked are we willing to nuke Pakistan for supplying the technology if not being the actual source of bombs? Of course not...,

Heh, JS, Blair's opponents don't STAY convinced. I read some of the British press.... It's one parliamentary crisis after another, with him, and each time he narrolwy squeaks through. Sooner or later, he won't.

#173 Gabriel Hanna

Monster Crabs, sounds like an impressive form of STD.

Actually I saw article.

Well, JS, deterrence only works when you have a return address for the nukes, which is exactly why we have to stomp on nasty little dictatorships before they get some.

Suppose a nuke goes off in NYC tomorrow--and after a year of investigation the evidence points to... say Tehran.

Then we---what?

Nuke how many hundreds of thousands in cold blood, as it were?

When they've had a year to prepare?

Considering how the world reacted to an invasion that had 16 UNSC resolutions justifiying it?

#174 Joshua Scholar

1. J.S. You are one strange cat.

#173 Gabriel Hanna

2. I too am worried about the crab army.

3. Is it gob-ree-el or gabe-riel?

I have to go, it is late and I am tired, and I saw the Passion so I'm depressed (my review is in the Passion slasher pic thread).

Nice to talkwith you, JS, hope you come around more often, but you may well decide you don't like LGF too much.

And if you post much, you'll need a thck hide. I've had some rough threads--and some good guys who helped me out in them too.

SBR, it is gabe-riel. As in how Americans pronounce it.

Any of the learned Jews around here who wish to help me with the Hebrew version, I should love to hear from.

Communist monster crabs, forsooth. Stalin strikes from beyond the grave. I KNEW that rat-bastard had an ace in the hole.

I think it was National Review Online that had a headline, "GLOBAL WARMING RAISES NAZI DEATH SHIPS!" NRO is skeptical of the human role in global warming, if the globe is warming... the article they linked to was about how the Danube River was unusually low that summer and a lost Nazi ship was discovered in the river. I thought that was the funniest headline ever until I saw this one about Stalin's monster crabs.

#177 Gabriel Hanna

We gotta make it clear that we protect our own people first.

In WWII Japan was ready to surrender before the nukes. Because we were beating their soldiers? Not a bit of it. Because we firebombed 65 cities that had only women, children and old men living in them, that's why. Killed 100,000 civilians in Tokyo in one night's raid.

If the Muslim world is too damn crazy to be deterred by some veriation of good old MAD, then you gotta convince them. A few H-bombs will bring reality crashing home on the survivors.

Sorry, but we have no obligations toward our enemies, especially enemies who don't abide by the Geniva convention. Note, if one side doesn't abide, then the other side has no obligation to abide, you know.

As for the rest of the cowering world, fuck em!

Good night Gabriel. Actually I spend too much time here already...

By the way I have no idea what you meant by "we're all cold warriors now". I don't think people have been changing their minds on the cold war.

#178 SBR

So how am I strange?

30 Martel
I have, for over 30 years, been warning anyone would cared to listen, that importing Muslims is a fatal mistake.
Devon Hill and Camel Prophet have also done the same. BTW, dont here from Devon Hill these days.

Gabriel Hanna

Doesn't mean Islam is going to be that way forever, anymore than Christianity was going to be.

That has been my hope as well. I have always felt sympathy for Muslims, as they are the very first victims of Islam and I sincerely hope that they can be brought out from this curse on mankind.

As you say Christianity reformed. Judaism reformed. And so it may well be that Islam will reform as well. I hope so too. The trouble is that in both Judaism and Christainity, the Bible is not taken as the literal word of God but as a text that was inspired by God. Thus interpretation became possible. Besides the fundamental teaching of Christianity is compassion. The teachings of Jesus are without doubt the most compassionate of all. The Quran OTH is believed to be the literal word of God and so when the Quran says "Kill Jews and Chrisians", that is what is meant. No possibility of misundersatnding here and no possibility of change.

Will Islam change? It cannot. The Quran leaves Muslims with no choice. Islam has to expand or die. That is why imams are rallying the troops so vigorously. They know the choice. It is either total victory or total defeat.

If you accept this, then you might take heart, that we most certainly will win. After all we are the most powerful rational, scientific, technological and philosophic civilisation to have ever existed. How can we be defeated by a tribal cult. Unfortunately there is no room for complacency. Islam's modus operandi is similar to the actions of a virus. An HIV virus, if you may. It lives off the host while destroying it. A parasite of the first order. It uses the host's defence mechanisms (the LLL, ACLU etc), to prevent its own destruction. Islam stops free debate and freedom of speech, and thus threatens the quintiscential value system of the West. It will destroy the West. Try criticising Mohammed openly, even in the West and see what happens.

If we wish to win and save Muslims as well from the scourge of Islam, then first and foremost we have to save ourselves. This is analogous to the situation of an Eboli plague. The first steps society, as a body takes, is to safeguard its medical personnel. Once that has been done, the medics can then try to save others.

This means that we have to stop Muslim immigration, and take steps to reverse it if possible. Denmark and Holland are on the way. Stopping and reversing Islamic immigration has the effect of choking the expansion of Islam. And with Islam's dictum of expand or die, such a policy threatens its existence. Note that I mean, Islam's existence, not its followers. Faced with nowhere to go, Islam will start to die, slowly at first but eventually there will be mass conversions. The conversions, most probabaly will be to Christianity, for it will be seen, misguidedly in my view, as the victorious religion.

I feel that we owe it to Muslims to free them from the scourge of Islam. In my most cynical moments, I sometimes think that OBL's/al-Qaeda's attack on the WTC on 9/11, was really a cry for help. A Munchhaussen symptom from a society that realises that it cannot free itself, and wants help desperately. But maybe that is a dream too far.

Thank you Gabriel. It is always nice to correspond with a person who raises issues in a well mannered way.

I too am avoiding the thread on the Passion for the reasons stated.

132 Martel

Even the densest Lcube will at some point realize that the muslim devils are against every liberty they hold dear, and want to kill them in the bargain.

As long as that does not happen, Western culture will continue to be subverted. The danger is that by the time the light dawns, it may well be too late. I'm just saying there is no room for compalcency.

And BTW, I have no illusions of Islam. It is a unified doctrine. That is why Muslims/CAIR will defend its most outrageous dictums, for the reason that if they accept one mistake in the Quran, then it is the end for Islam. All or nothing, yet again. And again with the PALis, they will have the whole of Israel or nothing.

#185 DP

But the worst stuff isn't in the Koran, it's the hadiths.

If they could give up the hadiths but not the Koran we'd be rid of most of the problem.

#143, Gabriel Hanna,

Thanks for the response to my #138,

you wrote: "If you define Islam to be congruent with Islamist ideology, of course you will say that those who don't buy into the ideology aren't "true Muslims". But you're just arguing in a circle."

The clerics spewing hatred in their friday khutbas are the ones who define islam. This is especially true as there is a complete lack of muslim clerics opposing the hatred and triumphalism produced by the iranian regime's clerics, the sheikh of al-azhar, the sheikhs and muftis in Mecca, Riyadh, Yemen and also in the USA...
There does exist a scattering of individuals who describe themselves as muslim, and who are not in agreement with the normative islamic line. My point is that they are actually or effectively apostates. If you think that the normative islamic line is really peace and tolerance, please provide some evidence: links or book references to muslim clerics sincerely preaching to their constituencies, real permanent tolerance for non-muslims. (I realize that you, GH, have pointed out that you do not see the typical line to be peace and tolerance. But that in itself, is a statement that your personal acquaintances are exceptions rather than typical cases. My request is meant for other readers)

you wrote: "As for those who ask me, are these really and truly Muslims, what do their clerics say, etc:
For one, I don't know who speaks Arabic and who doesn't, one of my friends at least was trying to learn it (he's since gone on to Caltech and I don't kknow how much time he has for Arabic). As I said, my friends are not Arabs. But Arabs are not congruent with Muslims--although I gather they act as though they seem to think so.
As for clerics, there are no clerics at the mosque in my town, to my knowledge. "

islam started in arabia. The koran is written in arabic, and cannot be authoritatively translated into any other language. Of course islam is not only the koran, it is also based on the hadiths (which are supposed to be completely based upon the koran) and further religious rulings, which vary in their aceptance. Nevertheless, any muslim who is not fluent in arabic is practicing a second-hand version of their faith. Such a second-hand version might be cobbled together by the individual from various sources, including infidel influences. I was sorta hoping you had acquaintance with some who learned tolerance from a cleric. I guess not.

you wrote: "Full disclosure: I was a guest at the mosque on occasion."

did you hear any sermons or guest sermons?

you wrote: "But it doesn't matter how much any of you argue with me about people you've never met whom I have known for years. I mean, nothing is going to come of that. How could it?"

I'm not arguing with you about your personal experiences with particular individuals. But you're right: such an arguement is mostly pointless.

you wrote: "I don't dispute that Muslims by and large are not doing their bit against the terrorists. What I dispute is that it must somehow be inherent to Islam. I also dispute that Muslims I know personally, whom you don't, must conform to your stereotype and I'm just too stupid to know it."

I don't recall insulting your intelligence in my post #138. I did not stereotype in my #138.

you wrote: "As for Islam REQUIRING sharia, well, there is a set of laws prescribed in the Torah, is there not, with pains and penalties not acceptable today? Judaism accomodated, did it not? The scriptures say a lot of things. (It was my understanding that the "eye for eye" bits were intended, not to be harsh or cruel, but to limit the type and degree of vengeance it was acceptable to take out on someone who had wronged you.) The New Testament prescribes behaviors that very few Christians perform. I see no reason why Islam must be inherently different. "

Realistically, rabbinic Judaism is a different religion than the religion practiced 2500+ years ago by the prophets, or by King Solomon etc. It is based upon that Judaism, but it is not the same. Similiar for most large current versions of Christianity, compared to Christianity versions practiced 500 or 1000 or 1500 years ago.

Islam, however is more resistant to change than either Judaism or Christianity. I don't know exactly why that is true. There are various offshoots (e.g. Druze, Ahmaddiyas, Bahai), and various flavors (e.g. sunni (with the various schools of religious law such as Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi... ), shia), and each flavor has sects. But offshoots are effectively expelled from the faith, rather than remaining within and influencing some sort of moderation, and the flavors and sects seem to compete to prove their own authentic orthodoxy. Perhaps the lack of a muslim central religious authority makes it more difficult for change to happen in an abrupt way (e.g. a decree from above which changes doctrine and practice). But the same lack of authority might be expected to allow smaller, local variations to flourish, some of which might be moderating or liberal. However, that hasn't happened, and doesn't appear to be happening. The founders of islam seem to have set up their faith-ideology to keep it "pure". I think that is a major purpose of the hajj requirement-- those who might stray are brought back into the fold once a year or at least once in a lifetime. There is also alot of emphasis on punishments for unbelievers and apostates. But anyway, i suggest that you ask your moderate muslim friends if islam REQUIRES sharia. I would be curious to hear the response.

btw, I see that I mistyped near the end of my #138, concerning "political" and "ideological" islam. I meant personal faith and ideological versions of islam.

And has been pointed out by many, unfortunately, the timescale involved in the evolution of religious ideology greatly exceeds the time in which large scale planetary destruction can be accomplished with current technology.

#149 posted:

A more pessimistic theory claims that the vast majority of Muslims sympathize deeply with bin Laden's ideology, both religiously and politically (though not engaging in actual violence), while moderate forces are but a thin intellectual veneer, lacking power, credibility, and leadership, and trying to lull the West into believing in the optimistic theory above.

Well, what does the historical record say? When and where has there ever been a "Muslim Reformation?"

Where exactly do the so-called "moderate forces" of Islam predominate? Where do they publish? Where do they propagate?

Only three examples come to mind (there may be others of a minor nature) each of which is exceptional, rather than representative.

#1 Turkey
Kemal Ataturk was the first turk with the vision and the balls to call a spade a spade and blame Islam for keeping the Turks backward, and specifically forbade Islamists from holding political power, outlawed the Fez and enshrined secularism and Women's rights into the constitution.

This was a POLITICAL repudiation of islamism, and quite clearly NOT an internal reform, but an externally imposed limit to the power of the Islamos.

#2 Indonesia
The overtheow of Dutch Colonial rule gave much greater freedom of political action to the Indonesians, and what did they do? They installed a secular government, backed by a powerful military and acknowledging the widely divergent religious proclivities of the far-flung archipelago.

This is simply an administrative political calculation that if they were to allow the muslim majority to impose itself, the nation would fracture along a thousand fault lines and crumble.

Again, the [bigoted word]s are constrained, not "enlightened."

#3 India
Again, although they are a large minority, they are a minority, and they know full well that the Hindu Majority is aware of the thousand years of atrocities committed against them by the Islamos.

Each act of naked aggression by Islamofasists in India is met with an equally violent reaction by the Hindu majority and essentially keeps the Islamikazes in check.

Again, "moderation" is a result of restraint, rather than the product of self-examination and internal motivation.

Therefore I would have to conclude that [bigoted word]s, left to thier own devices inevitably turn to blaming others for thier problems, evading responsibility for thier own societies, falling back on familiar and backward looking certainties rather than take the risks of change and evolution, and the logical conclusion of which is, and has always been, jihad.

I posit that the more pessimistic theory is in fact the correct one.

"By thier fruits shall ye know them"
Matt 7: 16-20

#188 Martel-Sobieski
The situation today is not good at all.

A question on my mind about the "struggle for the soul of Islam" is: what can realistically be expected? And at what cost to us if we intervene in that struggle -- cost in blood, cost in treasure, cost in risks to our national security, and cost in risks to allies' national security, and possibly other costs that might be involved.

The Wahhabis try to prevent any reform. Their approach is: only Wahhabism is true Islam; so anybody who does not follow Wahhabism is a kafir or apostate. Apostates deserve death, according to the Wahhabis. Therefore, they are quick to throw the apostate label on their foes within the ummah. This either gets the potential reformer killed, or intimidates him or her, or ensures that nobody will have the courage to associate with him or her for fear of getting a similar fatwa slapped on them. The Wahhabis do this so that the potential reformer does not get any influence among other Muslims.

One thing that we as kafirs can do is to at least not agree with the Wahhabis that reformers are apostates. We do not have any pragmatic interest in preventing reform, so we should not join the Wahhabis in doing the same work as them. That's why I object to calling Muslim reformers apostates. We are doing the Wahhabi work for them, and that is counterproductive.

On the other hand, Tom Friedman of the New York Times suggests that Israel's security should be sacrificed on the altar of Iraq, in order to try to get approval from some Muslims. In this he is not paying attention to the price of what he suggests, and there is nothing that would be gained by appeasing terrorism.

To DP #184

Dp.........I , Proud Albertan, am Devon Hill........just with the new moniker......

To Gabriel and others.........the Great point you are still missing is that when Christianity acted in a brutal fashion, it was doing so against its message.............as one who has actually studied Islam on and off for 20 years, when Bin Ladin and the Wahhbies and other Terrorist commit evil in Islam's name, they are doing so in conjunction with Muhammed's example and brutal teachings...

This is NOT a subjective point but reality........as others have pointed out, Islam has been on a death march for 1400 years.........

Islam is not reformable in the least......unless one starts editing the Quran and Sahih Hadiths.......and that is not going to happen!!!

Muslims are not even the issue save for those ones that want to enslave and kill us..........I too have had the benefit of having Muslims as lifelong friends......Indeed, many many years ago I dated a Muslim Turk for a couple ofyears who was the first to teach me about Islam and my 2 best buddies who I grew up with were Sunni Muslims until they converted to Christianity...

I am on excellent terms with there whole family to this day....

So of course there are fine muslims.......again people, we need to learn of what a dichotomy is....There is no such thing as fine honest literal Islam........the more one honestly tries to literally apply Islam, the greater for nastiness and evil is multiplied!!

Thanks

186 Joshua

But the worst stuff isn't in the Koran, it's the hadiths.

Too damned true.
I was using the quran as shorthand to indicate the whole shebang.

190 Proud Albertan

Glad to know that you are around.

the Great point you are still missing is that when Christianity acted in a brutal fashion, it was doing so against its message.

Precisely. The message of Jesus is compassion and turning the other cheek. When Christians act in a brutal manner they are at complete variance with the teachings of Jesus. In fact Christianity is the ultimate pacifist faith, even more so then Buddhism.

OTH Islam and massacres of non-Muslims goes hand in hand.
I came accross an article on the bloody massacres of the Indian partition in 1947. Now it is a given in the West, that Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were equally guilty of depravities. This always seemed a bit incongruous to me, given the relatively mild manner of Hindus.(This is beginning to change now as Christians in India are being increasingly persecuted in India by the Hindu nationalist government and mobs in general).
Coming back to the point, I came across an article that sheds a different light on the matter of the massacres in 1947; in Amritsar, India, anyway.

[Link: allaboutsikhs.com...]

There was one sentence that caught my eye in the above article. It was that after huge agitation, Muslims managed to get into a Sikh area to peform their prayers. So far so good. However, after prayers, Muslims, suddenly well armed, streamed out of the mosque and set about rioting and setting fire to the Sikh area, murdering many Sikhs in the process.
Hmm, I've heard about this somewhere else. Just this sentence convinced me, that this was not just another article re-writing history. It had the ring of truth.

Joshua, Proud Albertan

Have you come across the Life of Mohammed in comic book form. " Mohammed's Believe it or ELSE"

[Link: davidsonpress.com...]

It is hilarious. Pass it on. It is also suitable for the young but with parental guidance.

There are still some people who don't get what I'm trying to say.

You ask me what the cleric says at the mosque in my hometown. But there is no cleric. You all assume there is, just like you assume all sorts of things about people I know whom you don't.

This is a college town. Muslims come from all over. They could not possibly agree on one cleric.

Somebody leads Friday prayers; usually one of the brothers, but they may invite someone from outside the community from time to time, I don't know that they never do.

I have never heard anyone mention the existence of a cleric associated with the local mosque. In news articles about the mosques they do not mention a cleric.

The people who run the mosque, the people who attend the mosque, the people who organize the events at the mosque, are the members of the Muslim Student Association of our college and the mosque was built for them by a Saudi prince.

So, our mosque may very well be atypical, but it is designed to cater to Muslims of all stripes, except those who can't stand any stripe but their own, and they founded their own mosque in another town, and maybe they have a cleric, they're all Wahhabis, I heard.

As for the suggestion I talk with my Muslim friends about Sharia, of COURSE I have. Some don't think Sharia is necessary--but they come from Muslim countries that do not impose Sharia.

Anyway, I've said all that would be useful to say, and I'm not going to take any more question about what the local mosque is like, or just how Muslim my friends are, or anything of that nature.

Gabriel Hanna,

Your #193, strikes me as odd. I'm not sure why my posts seem to result in an air of tired or bemused arrogance in your responses (my interpretation). I acknowledged your previous statement that the mosque you visited did not have a cleric, and asked if you had heard any sort of sermon from a visiting cleric. I think it is fair to say that most mosques have clerics, either permanent or visiting. Apparently not all do.

I have attended in person MSA events where invited speakers, including clerics, preached hatred. I am curious if you heard messages contrary to my experience, when you visited the mosque or whatever. I guess you are saying that you haven't heard clerical sermons or speeches either for or against hatred of unbelievers. Ok. Fair enough.

Any self professed muslim who does not think sharia is necessary, is simply an apostate. That may well be a good thing, and the person may be a mensch, so to speak, but they are still an apostate of islam.

188 Martel

Therefore I would have to conclude that [bigoted word]s, left to thier own devices inevitably turn to blaming others for thier problems, evading responsibility for thier own societies, falling back on familiar and backward looking certainties rather than take the risks of change and evolution, and the logical conclusion of which is, and has always been, jihad.

Muslims are following in the footsteps of their prophet. If they wage Jihad, how can they be wrong?. In their eyes, they are following the quran; the infidels are not. So how on earth can they not blame the infidels for all that is wrong with their society. If they admit that they were wrong, then they would have to admit that the quran/hadiths are wrong.

It is a terrible dilemma for the poor mushies.

There is no prospect for a reformation of Islam. There is no precedence or material in the quran, that lends itself for any interpretation, other then the Jihadi one.

Islam is an all or nothing creed. It will either be globally victorious or die in the trying.

#190 Proud Albertan
You wrote about taking things literally in Islam. Here is something relevant.

Every religion has its share of fundamentalists, Irshad Manji says. But only in Islam does the literal interpretation of scripture represent mainstream thought.

[Link: www.visiontv.ca...]

If Muslims do not take everything in their scripture literally, if Muslims return to the idea of itjihad, or independent thinking, then Islam can improve itself.

196 EE

Itjihad is merely a gambit when the ummah is a tiny minority in dar al harb. Once the ummah is strong enough, normal Jihad service resumes.

#197, DP,

I think EE in 196 meant to write not itjihad, but ijtihad, (see 2nd and 3rd letters in the word) which was the concept of formulating islamic law based on islamic sources, but for contemporary issues. It basically ended in the 10th century (Christian calendars). So that's where islam is still stuck. Post ijtihad religious rulings by muslim theologians do not have the same higher religious standing as those issued prior to the end of ijtihad. or something like that.

Well, del, I'm sorry if you thought me arrogant. It wasn't my intention to sound that way.

I'm not sure, however, that you can declare a Muslim an apostate because he disagrees with what you think is characteristic of Islam.

AS for MSA, in chapters of MSA at many American colleges, you can find their invited speakers preaching hate, but not at mine. This is not a liberal university, as universities go.

#198 del
Thanks for correcting me. Yes, I did mean ijtihad.

Here is a link to an article about what Irshad Manji said about ijtihad.
[Link: israpundit.com...]

Manji emphasized the need for Muslims to revive the concept of ijtihad, or self-jihad, an Islamic tradition of independent thinking, in which Muslims study the Koran and reach their own interpretations, which she called an "almost Talmudic process."

How does she visualize the process of reform?

Manji predicted that the Islamic Reformation that she advocates "may very well begin in the West, where we enjoy precious freedoms to think, challenge and be challenged without fear of state reprisals."

Some more about ijtihad in an interview with Irshad Manji:
[Link: www.canada.com...]

Smith: Now, my understanding is that many Muslims believe the Koran is the literal word of God, and that it ... because of that it cannot be challenged, but if you can't challenge the word of the Koran, how can you have reform?

Manji: Well, you've hit the nail on the head and that's precisely why what I'm basing my vision for a liberal reform on is this very short-lived but nonetheless existent tradition of independent thinking within Islam. It's [a] tradition known [as] ijtihad and it does mean independent reasoning. .. and I know that sounds a lot like jihad to non-Arabic ears. Interestingly it comes from the same root "to struggle" but ijtihad is the very antithesis of violent struggle, it's all about using your own brain, conversing with the Koran engagin in conversation with its very contradictory passages and reaching temporary conclusions, temporary because only God knows the full truth of anything, temporary conclusions about what your Islam demands that you do with your faith. In my case it means that I defend universal human rights.

Smith: Now I suspect not everyone agrees with you. We invited somebody from the Canadian Islamic Congress on and also from the Council on American Islamic Relations and they both refused, why do you suppose that was?

Manji: .. well, I cannot put words in their mouth. I don't know. I sometimes wonder if it might be because they fear the weakness of their own arguments and the way to protect their own arguments is to insulate them from challenge...

Another interview with Irshad Manji where she talks about ijtihad.
[Link: www.pbs.org...]

Manji: ... ijtihad is all about independent reasoning, independent thinking. Most Muslims, never mind non-Muslims, don't know about this tradition. We are not taught about it. It is a short-lived tradition. One, you know, at its peak for about 200-300 years. And then towards the end of the 11th century, the doors of independent thinking slammed shut, for very political reasons. Yet we Muslims in the 21st century have inherited this closed-mindedness.

Here is Irshad Manji's website
[Link: www.muslim-refusenik.com...]

An interesting aspect of the Koran is the part known as the Satanic Verses. This is from Irshad Manji's website:

"If you are a Muslim then you should not been photographed with a person like [Salman] Rushdie he said intolerable things about Islam. This fact is proved by calling his book The Satanic Verses" -- A different Salman

Irshad replies: Hate to break it to you, Salman, but The Satanic Verses refers to a set of passages that Prophet Muhammad, in all his fallible human judgment, accepted as authentic entries into the Koran and then rejected, blaming his mistake on a trick played by Satan. For centuries since then, Islamic philosphers have been telling the story of "the Satanic verses," attesting to the age-old doubts that thinking people have about the perfection of the Koran.

If Prophet Muhamad could make mistakes about certain verses, how do we know that [he] didn't make mistakes about other verses as well? Remember, he wasn't God. He was a human being, and his own confusions about the revelations he heard add fuel to the argument that the Koran is an inconsistent, constructed document with some human biases -- like all the other texts of the great religions.

Your refusal to tolerate questions about the Koran does a far greater disservice to Islam than Rushdie's pen ever will.

-- from Irshad Manji's website.

del, EE

This all sounds like splitting hairs. The reality is that except for the likes of Manji, there is not even an inkling that the quran and hadiths be interpreted in any except the literal way.

The Jihad continues and innocents all over the world, are dying in the hundreds. Till the Jihad stops and Muslims all over the world, acknowledge the evil of Jihad, I can see no reason why the likes of Manji should not be taken as practising a suble form of Taqqiya.

But again Ladies and Gentleman, as much as we can appreciate the bravery of Irshad and others, what they are proposing is something that is not True or Orthodox Islam!

It is rank heresy.........much like the Sufis or other groups of moderation of Islam...............again, to take Muhammed's life example and doctrines at honest face value result in murder and all sorts of oppression and mayham.........this cannot be changed.........unless the Quran is edited and the Hadiths also....

And this is why Islam deserves the dustbin of history like Marxism or Nazism.......it is a thuggish brutal Arab Imperialistic ideology........again, even a cursory reading of Islam's primary sources will indicate this........

No one should be saying all Muslims are some kind of monolith because they are not......there are tonnes of Muslims that do not take every teaching of Muhammed's literally........

But Islam itself must be are target..........and it is Islam that will hopefully fold and collapse like a house of cards as more avenues of freedom are open to the Islamic world.......

Islam simply cannot stand any scrutiny............Folks, this is why Islam teaches to murder those that leave the fold............if this isn't like Stalinism or Hitlerism, I do not know what is!!!

Thanks

To #192...

That cartoon is hilarious........actually I really like the artistry........it is so funny.........not too mention the examples of Islamic doctrine.......I saw this a while ago and now I am going to bookmark it........funny stuff....

Can you imagine what would happen to the author if he was ever caught in the Islamic world???

Oy Vey....

206 Proud Albertan

Maybe I was being a little rough on Irshad Manji practising Taqqiya. She probably believes that Islam is reformable. But I see no evidence to suggest that that is possible. In fact all the evidence points the other way.

Consider two latter day reformers, Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Both of them built up a following fairly quickly, as the message they brought found a ready response in people, not just Indians or blacks, but across boundaries.
In the case of Irshad Manjit though, with considerable media exposure, one would have expected that by now, millions of Muslim moderates, in the West if no where else, would have been attracted to her message. But nothing. OK, one would have expected atleast Muslim women in the West to throng to her side. Her speaking engagements would have been full to capacity with Muslim women supporters. Nothing of the kind.
What this indicates is that there is no support for idea of ijtihad or whatever. The true message of Islam is Jihad as far the believers are concerned.

What Ishad Manji does have, is a following among the media and Left Liberal elites in the West. She is their darling, as she re-inforces their idea that all cultures are alike; that moderates or extremists can be found in every community and faith etc. And it is in that sense that I believe that Irshad Manji is an unknowing tool of Taqqiya.

I think we would be far better relying on Ali Sena of Faithfreedom.org, when he states that Islam is unreformable as there is nothing wrth reforming or redeemable. He probably, has far more knowledge and understanding of Islam then Manji.