Discovery Institute Creationists Thrilled About ‘Climategate’

Environment • Views: 8,188

Another right wing group working overtime to capitalize on the stolen CRU email “scandal:” the dishonest creationist wackos at the Discovery Institute. And as usual, they take the idiocy to a whole new level, claiming that the CRU emails discredit all of modern science. Yes, really.

The Sensuous Curmudgeon has a good rundown of their latest incredibly strange theocratic rant: Discovery Institute: The Mask Falls Away.

YESTERDAY we posted Discovery Institute: Thrilled About ClimateGate, in which we showed that the neo-theocrats at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture (a/k/a the Discoveroids) were gearing up to use the still-unfolding global warming email imbroglio as “proof” that brave dissenters from science orthodoxy have been suppressed by ideological conspirators.

Although not specifically expressed in the Discoveroid article we wrote about, the implication was that because the legitimate views of global warming skeptics had been suppressed, this means that all science dissent is similarly worthy, and therefore the irrational science-denial of creationists is somehow now respectable. We’re calling this interpretation of ClimateGate the “vindication of all kooks” doctrine.

Following that initial salvo, the Discoveroids have now posted a far stronger article at their blog. We’ve always told you what the Discoveroids were up to. Back when we started our humble blog we posted Discovery Institute: Enemies of the Enlightenment. But it’s no longer necessary to read between the lines. The Discoveroids are now out of the closet.

This is a perfect example of a point I’ve made several times: the convergence of tactics and talking points between climate denial groups and creationists. They both use cherry-picked data, they both employ pseudo-scientific language to make outrageous claims that sound convincing to gullible people, they both compile lists of skeptical “scientists” that turn out to be packed with ringers, frauds, and people who never signed in the first place, and they both use quote mining.

And they are very often the same people.

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329 comments
1 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:52:50pm

Tricksy scientists with their tricks... always trying to hurt us...

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:53:03pm

Go, scientific materialism, go!

3 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:56:43pm

F**king moronic choads...just when people thought DI couldn't go any lower, they do.

4 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:00pm

I'm not surprised the disco dewds would support the denialists, because their target has never been simply Darwin or evolution. Rather, they seek to undermine the whole of science by insisting on supernatural explanations and "theistic realism". In fact, it was the support to the denialists from the discovery institute that caused me to first re-examine my position on AGW. Like the true charlatans they are, they will latch onto any anti-science agenda to further their goal. Intelligent design was their first wedge, and now they seek to make "climate-gate" a second wedge.

5 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:08pm

Does this mean the Disco Dudes are going to forsake technology and live in caves?
/wishful thinking.

6 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:47pm

No wonder the AGW threads/arguments are beginning to sound the same as the Discovery Institute threads. It's people that are suspicious of scientists, imagining that scientists would seize power just like they, in their innermost hearts, would like to if they only could.

7 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:57:57pm

re: #5 Varek Raith

Does this mean the Disco Dudes are going to forsake technology and live in caves?
/wishful thinking.

If only we were so lucky...

8 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:58:07pm

In memory of yakabozo:

Creatinists.

9 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:59:16pm

re: #8 wrenchwench

In memory of yakabozo:

Creatinists.

I chuckled every time he wrote that.

10 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:59:20pm

I thought all the evidence that discredited creationism was planted by God to test our faith? But the real evidence of creationism has been hidden away by the scientists... Oh, I get it. Those scientists are working for God. They're helping test our faith too, and only those who manage to keep believing in defiance of both God and the Scientific establishment will go to heaven.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:01:12pm

re: #5 Varek Raith

Does this mean the Disco Dudes are going to forsake technology and live in caves?
/wishful thinking.

Thing is, the Amish remove themselves from such things, but they do it in a reasoned way. They accept the lifestyle that living simply and low-tech imposes on them, because it has spiritual meaning. They use technology when they need it--medicine in particular--and don't go around being nasty to other people who live differently than they do.

The Disco people, frankly, need all the tech they can get, because they, oddly for people who are against the Enlightenment, plan to be the next enlightened despots--except they ain't all that enlightened.

They're irrational, where the Amish are rational.

12 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:01:56pm

If the email "nontroversy" is so beneath all notice, why does it keep getting noticed?

At the very least it says something about the scientists within the "consensus" fortifications.

13 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:03:29pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing is, the Amish remove themselves from such things, but they do it in a reasoned way. They accept the lifestyle that living simply and low-tech imposes on them, because it has spiritual meaning. They use technology when they need it--medicine in particular--and don't go around being nasty to other people who live differently than they do.

The Disco people, frankly, need all the tech they can get, because they, oddly for people who are against the Enlightenment, plan to be the next enlightened despots--except they ain't all that enlightened.

They're irrational, where the Amish are rational.

Oops, I didn't consider the Amish when I wrote that, thanks for pointing that out.

Rephrase - The Disco Dudes need to go away.
:)

14 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:03:33pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

I'm not surprised the disco dewds would support the denialists, because their target has never been simply Darwin or evolution. Rather, they seek to undermine the whole of science by insisting on supernatural explanations and "theistic realism". In fact, it was the support to the denialists from the discovery institute that caused me to first re-examine my position on AGW. Like the true charlatans they are, they will latch onto any anti-science agenda to further their goal. Intelligent design was their first wedge, and now they seek to make "climate-gate" a second wedge.

Is it wrong to see the Disco Dewd types as Dr. Evil?

///

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:04:10pm

re: #13 Varek Raith

Oops, I didn't consider the Amish when I wrote that, thanks for pointing that out.

Rephrase - The Disco Dudes need to go away.
:)

I'm sure the Amish would also be pleased to point out that they do not live in caves, they live in very clean farmhouses. ;)

16 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:04:46pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist The Disco people, frankly, need all the tech they can get, because they, oddly for people who are against the Enlightenment, plan to be the next enlightened despots--except they ain't all that enlightened.

Good rule of thumb: Anyone who thinks they're qualified to rule humanity isn't suited for the job.

17 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:06:25pm

Creationism is not science, but pure religion and I hate it of course. On the other hand showing that they use anti-global warming data in that way doesn't discredit people who doubt the claim that global warming is strongly effected by human industrial emissions. If it was the other way around you could claim that it shows that they employ the same methods, but this is a uni directional relation.

18 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:06:48pm

re: #16 Kruk

Good rule of thumb: Anyone who thinks they're qualified to rule humanity isn't suited for the job.

The same would apply to eco-technocrats and anyone who aspires to be president.

19 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:06:48pm

re: #8 wrenchwench

In memory of yakabozo:

Creatinists.

or . . . cretinists?

20 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:07:02pm

re: #4 Sharmuta

I'm not surprised the disco dewds would support the denialists, because their target has never been simply Darwin or evolution. Rather, they seek to undermine the whole of science by insisting on supernatural explanations and "theistic realism". In fact, it was the support to the denialists from the discovery institute that caused me to first re-examine my position on AGW. Like the true charlatans they are, they will latch onto any anti-science agenda to further their goal. Intelligent design was their first wedge, and now they seek to make "climate-gate" a second wedge.

Precisely.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:07:17pm

re: #13 Varek Raith

Oops, I didn't consider the Amish when I wrote that, thanks for pointing that out.

Rephrase - The Disco Dudes need to go away.
:)

And I didn't think you were trashing on people who live without much tech. It just strikes me as interesting that the Disco-type people really do think they can have their technology and eat scientists too.

I like to bring up the Amish, because they seem like a group of people who have thought out their role in modern society and come to a radically different conclusion than most people's, one that isn't hypocritical or blame-laying. Ya wanna live in a simpler time? OK, go forth and do so. All you have to do is be willing to get up at four in the morning for the rest of your life.

22 DocRambo  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:07:32pm

Does anyone know where these e-mails are posted? I have not seen them, but strongly suspect that they are innocuous and misrepresented by the opponents camp. Let's read them and make up our own minds. Like I tell my grad students, be objective.

23 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:09:28pm

If you have ever used the phrase "well we know it's the truth because the bible tells us so" please step away from the science text books, ok?

24 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:09:29pm

re: #22 DocRambo

Does anyone know where these e-mails are posted? I have not seen them, but strongly suspect that they are innocuous and misrepresented by the opponents camp. Let's read them and make up our own minds. Like I tell my grad students, be objective.

They were stolen, so they won't be posted here.

25 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:10:53pm

re: #22 DocRambo

Does anyone know where these e-mails are posted? I have not seen them, but strongly suspect that they are innocuous and misrepresented by the opponents camp. Let's read them and make up our own minds. Like I tell my grad students, be objective.

Google it - will take you 2 seconds to find. Or visit any blog of the lunatic fringe, they'll be happy to give you helpful excerpts./

26 Hector1980  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:10:55pm

Yup, their tactics are very similar, though most of the kookish fringe use them. There is an 'article' about "66 questions and answers on the Holocaust" and you could see how similar their ignorance is.

Though I think it takes a more stupid person to deny Evolution, or, you know, the fact that the Earth isn't 6,000 years old than climate change.

27 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:11:37pm

Two more cents-on another board I read the most vocal anti-global warming people were also anti semitic. That made me a bit uncomfortable, seeing that idiots hold an opinion which is a bit similar to mine (though I hold it for different reasons of course). But on the other hand, does it mean I should change my opinion because of the opinion of morons I dislike?

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:12:08pm

re: #23 Cineaste

If you have ever used the phrase "well we know it's the truth because the bible tells us so" please step away from the science text books, ok?

Semi OT: I sooo want to teach Old Testament at my school. The guy they have doing it now really prefers Health and being a sports coach, and as he says "thinks it's cool they know I'm a fan of God, but teaching this stuff is a lot". We need to swap gigs.

29 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:12:36pm

re: #22 DocRambo

*sniffs around*

Something smells a little fishy here...

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:14:05pm

re: #27 greatwizard

Two more cents-on another board I read the most vocal anti-global warming people were also anti semitic. That made me a bit uncomfortable, seeing that idiots hold an opinion which is a bit similar to mine (though I hold it for different reasons of course). But on the other hand, does it mean I should change my opinion because of the opinion of morons I dislike?

No, but it's not crazy to see who holds what opinions, and why, as you continue to learn more. And it's very good that you don't make excuses for bigots just because they happen to agree with you on other matters. I don't mean that to sound condescending. A lot of people do. Some of them even do it here. ;)

31 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:14:29pm

re: #8 wrenchwench

In memory of yakabozo:

Creatinists.

Cretins.

32 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:14:47pm

re: #29 talon_262

*sniffs around*

Something smells a little fishy here...

Youtube Video
33 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:15:03pm

re: #22 DocRambo

Do (or would) you "teach the controversy", as it were?

/I'm all ears...

34 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:15:14pm

re: #22 DocRambo

How about we skip all the stolen emails and spend the time looking at data on AGW, instead of the noise.

35 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:15:45pm

Creationist on Evolution:

Evolution is an atheistic plot to spread communistic eugenicist ideas and to advance the cause of secular progressives towards a Maoist-Stalinist world government!

Creationist on Global Warming:

Global warming is an atheistic plot to spread communistic eugenicist ideas and to advance the cause of secular progressives towards a Maoist-Stalinist world government!

36 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:15:51pm

re: #26 Hector1980

Yup, their tactics are very similar, though most of the kookish fringe use them. There is an 'article' about "66 questions and answers on the Holocaust" and you could see how similar their ignorance is.

I hate to say it, but when the last of the Holocaust survivors passes away it's going to get ugly. They'll no longer be first-hand witnesses to stand up and say 'I was there and it was true'. These people are too cowardly to tell survivors to their face they are lying, but once they're gone, the kooks are going to get louder. It will be sad and ugly.

37 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:16:24pm

re: #27 greatwizard

Two more cents-on another board I read the most vocal anti-global warming people were also anti semitic. That made me a bit uncomfortable, seeing that idiots hold an opinion which is a bit similar to mine (though I hold it for different reasons of course). But on the other hand, does it mean I should change my opinion because of the opinion of morons I dislike?

Well- you might want to look further into why you find yourself in agreement with morons. My guess is they're reading propaganda, and you likely are too. Perhaps you should try looking at legitimate sources for information?

38 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:16:40pm

re: #32 freetoken

Now I'm getting hungry.

39 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:17:15pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

No, but it's not crazy to see who holds what opinions, and why, as you continue to learn more. And it's very good that you don't make excuses for bigots just because they happen to agree with you on other matters. I don't mean that to sound condescending. A lot of people do. Some of them even do it here. ;)

Well being an Israeli Jew, I find it hard to suspect global warming is a Jewish conspiracy! The Zion elders would have informed me otherwise :P

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:18:22pm

re: #36 Cineaste

I hate to say it, but when the last of the Holocaust survivors passes away it's going to get ugly. They'll no longer be first-hand witnesses to stand up and say 'I was there and it was true'. These people are too cowardly to tell survivors to their face they are lying, but once they're gone, the kooks are going to get louder. It will be sad and ugly.

True. We have their voices and their faces recorded, we have their stories, but it is going to be harder, and harder.

It's strange for me to think that my children, when I get around to having some, will probably never experience that moment when an older person pushes up their sleeves, and you see the numbers. It's going to be a new generation. There's good and bad to that.

41 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:18:48pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

And I didn't think you were trashing on people who live without much tech. It just strikes me as interesting that the Disco-type people really do think they can have their technology and eat scientists too.

And they're going to be with us for hundreds of years...

[Link: www.angelfire.com...]

(See the entry under "Retros")

42 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:19:32pm

re: #38 Rightwingconspirator

Sushi!

43 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:19:38pm

re: #17 greatwizard

re: #22 DocRambo

That was fast. Two "skeptics" is the first 25 comments.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:19:39pm

re: #39 greatwizard

Well being an Israeli Jew, I find it hard to suspect global warming is a Jewish conspiracy! The Zion elders would have informed me otherwise :P

Oh, you mean that blue newsletter that comes with the checks? Yeah, but sometimes they leave stuff out, like it if it comes in late on a Tuesday morning.

///

45 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:20:21pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

True. We have their voices and their faces recorded, we have their stories, but it is going to be harder, and harder.

It's strange for me to think that my children, when I get around to having some, will probably never experience that moment when an older person pushes up their sleeves, and you see the numbers. It's going to be a new generation. There's good and bad to that.

Definitely. This was my Grandfather's testimony. Worth watching if you have three minutes.

46 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:21:15pm

re: #39 greatwizard

Well being an Israeli Jew, I find it hard to suspect global warming is a Jewish conspiracy! The Zion elders would have informed me otherwise :P

When you hear from them next, please remind them that the rest of us will need an extra 10% bribe money this Christmas.


/longstanding LGF joke

47 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:21:21pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

You've been called out in the previous thread (#396)

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:21:25pm

re: #41 Kruk

And they're going to be with us for hundreds of years...

[Link: www.angelfire.com...]

(See the entry under "Retros")

"Prometheus Unplugged". OY!

49 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:21:26pm

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, you mean that blue newsletter that comes with the checks? Yeah, but sometimes they leave stuff out, like it if it comes in late on a Tuesday morning.

///

I got my call on the YidLine. Like a Bat-Phone but with 80% more matzah.

50 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:22:42pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

Well- you might want to look further into why you find yourself in agreement with morons. My guess is they're reading propaganda, and you likely are too. Perhaps you should try looking at legitimate sources for information?

Well they believe it's a Jewish conspiracy, while I believe it's a totally blown out of proportions theory taken up by the mass media and popular celebrity led culture. I read some papers about it, and I'm not totally convinced it's as major as the wild apocalyptic predictions claim it to be.

51 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:23:36pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

I remember the first time, actually EVERY time I have seen someone with the numbers.
I will ALWAYS remember them.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:25:26pm

re: #45 Cineaste

Definitely. This was my Grandfather's testimony. Worth watching if you have three minutes.

I'm honored. What a man.

53 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:26:20pm

We have some sneaky climate 'skeptics' amongst us. Come on, "DocRambo" and "greatwizard" -- just come out and say what you feel.

54 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:27:29pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm honored. What a man.

We have his collection of color photos from inside Buchenwald on the day it was freed. An amazing testament.

55 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:27:37pm

re: #22 DocRambo

44 comments in 3 years (just a tad over one a month)

After that one, we won't "see" you till about the 3rd week of December, huh?
Pacing yourself!?!?

56 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:27:50pm

re: #45 Cineaste

Definitely. This was my Grandfather's testimony. Worth watching if you have three minutes.

Wow..Just Wow...

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:28:11pm

re: #51 Floral Giraffe

I remember the first time, actually EVERY time I have seen someone with the numbers.
I will ALWAYS remember them.

Soon it will be our memories, and our documentation, against the deniers. (Big hug).

58 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:28:16pm

re: #36 Cineaste

I hate to say it, but when the last of the Holocaust survivors passes away it's going to get ugly. They'll no longer be first-hand witnesses to stand up and say 'I was there and it was true'. These people are too cowardly to tell survivors to their face they are lying, but once they're gone, the kooks are going to get louder. It will be sad and ugly.

One ray of hope: At our World War 2 rememberance services here, we see more and more Gen X and Y people, in a lot of cases with their children as well. They are taking an interest in the war and why it was fought, *precisely* because they know the last eye witnesses will soon be gone, and they don't want those memories to be lost. I don't think the kooks who are biding their time will find it easy at all.

59 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:28:27pm

re: #53 Charles

We have some sneaky climate 'skeptics' amongst us. Come on, "DocRambo" and "greatwizard" -- just come out and say what you feel.

As they say at the laundry mat

Follow The Socks !

60 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:28:29pm

Sooo...AGW skepticism = Anti-science creationism?

61 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:30:20pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

Just having the deniers waiting for the last of the survivors to die off naturally is insidious and predatory in and of itself...

62 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:30:40pm

re: #59 sattv4u2

As they say at the laundry mat

Follow The Socks !

Just don't use my socks as puppets, they cost $15 a pair.

63 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:31:55pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Just don't use my socks as puppets, they cost $15 a pair.

A pair of puppets for $15? Black Friday Sale!?!?

64 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:32:06pm

re: #53 Charles

We have some sneaky climate 'skeptics' amongst us. Come on, "DocRambo" and "greatwizard" -- just come out and say what you feel.

I said what I feel. I feel the issue was overblown by popular culture and like all stuff that gets published in mainstream news scientists are of course happy to come up with more and more apocalyptic stuff. It's a cycle of sorts. I don't think humans have no effect on it, I just think it's not as disastrous as it is presented. But I admit I never delved deep into it, not more then reading some papers once or twice - because I have very minor effect on it anyway, as an Israeli voter. I support environmental issues that deal with more direct pollution problems - like the one in my native Haifa port which causes 70% percent of occurrence of Asthma in the locals etc.

65 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:32:53pm

re: #45 Cineaste

Definitely. This was my Grandfather's testimony. Worth watching if you have three minutes.

Wow.
Thanks for sharing that.

66 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:33:31pm

re: #64 greatwizard

I said what I feel. I feel the issue was overblown by popular culture and like all stuff that gets published in mainstream news scientists are of course happy to come up with more and more apocalyptic stuff. It's a cycle of sorts. I don't think humans have no effect on it, I just think it's not as disastrous as it is presented. But I admit I never delved deep into it, not more then reading some papers once or twice - because I have very minor effect on it anyway, as an Israeli voter. I support environmental issues that deal with more direct pollution problems - like the one in my native Haifa port which causes 70% percent of occurrence of Asthma in the locals etc.

70% more then in the rest of the population that is. Sorry for not proof-reading

67 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:34:06pm

re: #45 Cineaste

Definitely. This was my Grandfather's testimony. Worth watching if you have three minutes.

Thank you for posting that.
You do him honor.

68 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:34:21pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

I was invited to Passover dinner by a friend. After dinner I sat down with the patriarch of the house, and he showed me his numbers. We spoke for quite some time. Bless his soul, like so many gone now. This had a major impact on my understanding. Made the history real.

Oddly enough I also met a Tienanmen survivor.
Very different things but important parallels there. Nobody in Germany stood up to Hitler.

69 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:34:50pm

re: #64 greatwizard

I said what I feel. I feel the issue was overblown by popular culture and like all stuff that gets published in mainstream news scientists are of course happy to come up with more and more apocalyptic stuff. It's a cycle of sorts.

So you believe that scientists are just going along with a fad? All the data, all the measurements, all the studies, they're all just trying to fit in?

Is that really how you think science works?

70 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:35:40pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Just don't use my socks as puppets, they cost $15 a pair.

And, they match!
LOL!

71 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:36:56pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

If the email "nontroversy" is so beneath all notice, why does it keep getting noticed?

At the very least it says something about the scientists within the "consensus" fortifications.

The day they pronounced the AGW debate over was the day they surrendered a big piece of the high ground to the deniers.

72 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:37:06pm

re: #70 Floral Giraffe

And, they match!
LOL!

Wife looked down at my socks as we were sitting in church one day. She said "you know you have one black sock and one navy blue one on?"

I said "it's okay, I have another pair just like them at home!"

73 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:37:56pm

re: #71 Spare O'Lake

The day they pronounced the AGW debate over was the day they surrendered a big piece of the high ground to the deniers.

Got my attention.

74 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:38:05pm

re: #69 Charles

So you believe that scientists are just going along with a fad? All the data, all the measurements, all the studies, they're all just trying to fit in?

Is that really how you think science works?

I didn't say that. I believe the measurements, I don't agree with some of the predictions, and some of the conclusions. But as I said, I didn't voice any strong opinions, I just don't think a comparison to the creationists is fair.

75 bosforus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:38:49pm

Let the fools have their Climategate.

76 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:39:03pm

re: #61 Fenway_Nation


Addendum...

It's like...think of the smarmiest, sleaziest ambulance chasing attourney
imaginary...then multiply it by a million.

Denier: 'The so-called Holocaust never happened...it was an elaborate hoax'

Relative of survivor: 'How dare you! My Nana was the only one in her family to survive the death camps!'

Denier: 'And where is she now?'

Relative of survivor: 'She passed away five years ago. She was in her 90s'

Denier: 'I see...well, isn't that convenient?'

77 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:40:00pm

re: #70 Floral Giraffe

And, they match!
LOL!

Yep, they do. I wear Thorlo socks, which have cushioning on the toes and heels. They're expensive, but they're the best.

78 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:40:08pm

re: #74 greatwizard

I didn't say that. I believe the measurements, I don't agree with some of the predictions, and some of the conclusions. But as I said, I didn't voice any strong opinions, I just don't think a comparison to the creationists is fair.

What part of my comparison is unfair? I've seen all of those tactics right here at LGF -- I wasn't just making things up.

79 ryannon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:41:45pm

re: #36 Cineaste

I hate to say it, but when the last of the Holocaust survivors passes away it's going to get ugly. They'll no longer be first-hand witnesses to stand up and say 'I was there and it was true'. These people are too cowardly to tell survivors to their face they are lying, but once they're gone, the kooks are going to get louder. It will be sad and ugly.

It's already sad and ugly.

But documents such as Claude Lanzmann's Shoah or Alain Renais' Night and Fog will remain to testify to the horror.

80 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:42:05pm

re: #76 Fenway_Nation

Addendum...

It's like...think of the smarmiest, sleaziest ambulance chasing attourney
imaginary...then multiply it by a million.

Denier: 'The so-called Holocaust never happened...it was an elaborate hoax'

Relative of survivor: 'How dare you! My Nana was the only one in her family to survive the death camps!'

Denier: 'And where is she now?'

Relative of survivor: 'She passed away five years ago. She was in her 90s'

Denier: 'I see...well, isn't that convenient?'

[DF puts the asshole denier's head through a window, followed by the rest of him.] Not intended as an a threat, but people who would say that anger me immensely.

81 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:43:23pm

re: #74 greatwizard

I didn't say that. I believe the measurements, I don't agree with some of the predictions, and some of the conclusions. But as I said, I didn't voice any strong opinions, I just don't think a comparison to the creationists is fair.

Why is it an unfair analogy? Denialists and creationists behave very much like each other, producing no counter-data themselves, but tons of propaganda, they can produce. They both lie and distort both the evidence and the entire issue. They both cherry pick and quote mine. It's a completely fair (and accurate) analogy.

82 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:44:03pm

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

Just think ladies and germs...soon enough, this 'debating' tactic will be employedby Middle Eastern heads-of-state.

/It already is technically, but since there are still survivors of the death camp still alive, it kind of invalidates their argument.

83 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:46:50pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

You nailed it. People like that consider themselves superior. They are galled by the fact that their life-long held literal beliefs are pretty much refuted by science and therefore narcisistically make a reckless leap of logic that science must then be flawed and evil and their beliefs correct, after all. Because otherwise they would need to become more studious, sophisticated and philosophically informed in their theological position which entails more than just goin' to the church meetin' which they ain't doin'. LOL!

84 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:47:43pm

re: #81 Sharmuta

Why is it an unfair analogy? Denialists and creationists behave very much like each other, producing no counter-data themselves, but tons of propaganda, they can produce. They both lie and distort both the evidence and the entire issue. They both cherry pick and quote mine. It's a completely fair (and accurate) analogy.

But isn't the scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old just a tad older, stronger and well-established than the evidence that GW is mostly A?
Perhaps that is a weakness in the analogy.

85 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:50:25pm

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

Haven't you heard- the debate is teH over and anybody who says otherwise is a drity filthy liar in the pockets of Big Oil and the Discovery Institute...
/

86 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:52:30pm

re: #81 Sharmuta

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

But isn't the scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old just a tad older, stronger and well-established than the evidence that GW is mostly A?
Perhaps that is a weakness in the analogy.

I veiwed it a tad different. I don't think the poster (greatwizard) objected to the analogy, just that it was directed at him/her. That stated, form his/her #17 Creationism is not science, but pure religion and I hate it of course I'm unsure as to what (s)he hates. Creationism in particular of religion in general?

87 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:52:30pm

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

But isn't the scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old just a tad older, stronger and well-established than the evidence that GW is mostly A?

No, it isn't. There's a mountain of evidence supporting evolution, and there's a mountain of evidence supporting AGW.

88 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:52:51pm

re: #12 Cato the Elder

If the email "nontroversy" is so beneath all notice, why does it keep getting noticed?

At the very least it says something about the scientists within the "consensus" fortifications.

It's not beneath notice. It must be answered. Like with any blackmail, the best answer is "publish and be damned". The hacking victims should put all their data and emails on the web and allow their defenders to rebut the errors made by the denialists. When the denialists find petty jealousies and moments of peevish spite, just own up. Yes, scientists can get in a foul mood and write bad words about their detractors.

On the other hand, scientifically, this hackergate puts no holes in AGW theory. Glaciers remain in retreat. CO2 levels still rise. Migrations still flee south later and return north earlier than they used to. All this fits like the OJ glove. Claims of a non-fit to the contrary.

90 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:55:04pm

Christmas lights are up. I'm pooped.

91 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:55:57pm

re: #88 lostlakehiker

All this fits like the OJ glove.

ummm,,, best to revise that part

THAT didn't work to well for the prosecutors who thought they had a slam dunk!!

just sayin!

92 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:56:19pm

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

But isn't the scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old just a tad older, stronger and well-established than the evidence that GW is mostly A?
Perhaps that is a weakness in the analogy.

Neither the denialists nor the creationists think the evidence is valid anyways, so the age of said evidence would be irrelevant.

Additionally, the idea of AGW goes back over 100 years. I believe the physics involved is more established than 100 years, though I might be mistaken...

93 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:56:31pm

re: #86 sattv4u2

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

I veiwed it a tad different. I don't think the poster (greatwizard) objected to the analogy, just that it was directed at him/her. That stated, form his/her #17 Creationism is not science, but pure religion and I hate it of course I'm unsure as to what (s)he hates. Creationism in particular of religion in general?

Creationism is abhorrent from a purely theological perspective. The font of truth and reason, the basis of it all, has, we are to believe, constructed a lie more elaborate than the glorious complexity we think we see in the universe? This trickster cannot be the God who told Job to talk back when he could explain the way of an eagle in the air, etc. One point of that is that God is telling us that there is in fact an explanation. That things make sense, because He made them that way.

94 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:57:07pm

re: #90 Racer X

Christmas lights are up. I'm pooped.

Did you go with the Chili pepper lights or the little bottles of Corona lights this year?

95 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:58:14pm

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

But isn't the scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old just a tad older, stronger and well-established than the evidence that GW is mostly A?
Perhaps that is a weakness in the analogy.

Well Darwin published 'On the Origin of Species" 150 years ago. Our specific temperature records date back about 180 years.

96 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:58:47pm

re: #78 Charles

What part of my comparison is unfair? I've seen all of those tactics right here at LGF -- I wasn't just making things up.

Yea I know I seen many of those arguments. I am just rarely awake at those hours, so I just read some of the comments long after they have been posted. But the main difference is, as I said, that creationism is a religious belief and not science, while theoretically AGW can be a valid scientific opinion. I must say that I intend to re-check this soon when I have more time. The fact that so many morons think like this does concern me a bit.

97 Cathypop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:59:03pm

re: #90 Racer X

Christmas lights are up. I'm pooped.


Please come do my christmas lights. Pretty please?

98 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:59:57pm

re: #97 Cathypop

Please come do my christmas lights. Pretty please?

SHOCKING!

99 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:00:05pm

re: #96 greatwizard

The fact that so many morons think like this does concern me a bit.

As well it should.

100 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:00:18pm

re: #88 lostlakehiker

It is fair to say that the AGW Theory will continue in the wake of CRU-gate.

But AGW Alarmism has suffered a fatal blow.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:00:30pm

re: #89 Alouette

The NY Times notices that the Berkeley Daily Planet is anti-Semitic.

Oh, I could have told 'em that. The DP is effing vicious.

102 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:00:30pm

re: #94 Fenway_Nation

Did you go with the Chili pepper lights or the little bottles of Corona lights this year?

Heh. I wish. The front yard is adorned with a myriad of animated displays and lights. At least I bought more LED lights this year. To reduce the global warmening.

103 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:00:33pm

And on that note, I'm gonzo

Time for the long drive home

104 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:01:20pm

re: #88 lostlakehiker

It's not beneath notice. It must be answered. Like with any blackmail, the best answer is "publish and be damned". The hacking victims should put all their data and emails on the web and allow their defenders to rebut the errors made by the denialists. When the denialists find petty jealousies and moments of peevish spite, just own up. Yes, scientists can get in a foul mood and write bad words about their detractors.

On the other hand, scientifically, this hackergate puts no holes in AGW theory. Glaciers remain in retreat. CO2 levels still rise. Migrations still flee south later and return north earlier than they used to. All this fits like the OJ glove. Claims of a non-fit to the contrary.

Yes, but what work was done under contract, must be published within the confines of the contract.

105 Cathypop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:02:23pm

re: #103 sattv4u2

And on that note, I'm gonzo

Time for the long drive home


Drive safe

106 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:02:27pm

re: #97 Cathypop

Please come do my christmas lights. Pretty please?

Have your people call my people.

;-)

107 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:03:02pm

re: #87 Charles

No, it isn't. There's a mountain of evidence supporting evolution, and there's a mountain of evidence supporting AGW.

Not a tad older? Yes it is.
Not a tad stronger? Yes it is.
Not a tad better-established? Yes it is.
Please.

108 Cathypop  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:03:25pm

re: #106 Racer X

Have your people call my people.

;-)

My peeps will be in touch soon.
Dreaming.

109 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:03:47pm

I wonder if climatologists get tickled pink over scandals in the creationist sphere.

110 greatwizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:04:19pm

re: #86 sattv4u2

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

I veiwed it a tad different. I don't think the poster (greatwizard) objected to the analogy, just that it was directed at him/her. That stated, form his/her #17 Creationism is not science, but pure religion and I hate it of course I'm unsure as to what (s)he hates. Creationism in particular of religion in general?

Indeed. I dislike pseudo-science s.a. creationism, alternative medicine, power crystals etc... I dislike religion too but less strongly, as long as it doesn't try to push itself down our throats.

111 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:04:38pm

re: #104 Floral Giraffe

Yes, but what work was done under contract, must be published within the confines of the contract.

And if that contract demands secrecy it will henceforth be unacceptable as a source of public policy.

112 captdiggs  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:05:15pm

re: #84 Spare O'Lake

But isn't the scientific evidence that the earth is more than 6,000 years old just a tad older, stronger and well-established than the evidence that GW is mostly A?
Perhaps that is a weakness in the analogy.

It's hard to convince someone in Denver who shoveled out of one of the coldest and snowiest Octobers on record of AGW through mathematical models and computer codes.
But showing them the jawbone of a T-Rex is another thing altogether.

113 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:05:16pm

re: #103 sattv4u2

And on that note, I'm gonzo

Time for the long drive home

Fare thee well, viewing recepticle of the recieving broadcast signal from a geosynchronous orbital persuasion!

114 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:06:28pm

re: #35 Gus 802

Creationist on Evolution:

Evolution is an atheistic plot to spread communistic eugenicist ideas and to advance the cause of secular progressives towards a Maoist-Stalinist world government!

I disagee with this Gus. Creationists hang their hat on God. They can't stand that there's no scientific evidence for God. Many of them are very common sense type thinkers and they know deep down this implies there simply may be no God. And without delving into more exotic philosophical perspectves such as maybe God exists outside of spacetime and we can't detect Him/it they're left feeling like dupes. Since they don't even know what spacetime is in a lot of cases or they realize that it's still highly improvisational and speculative at best they'd rather narcisistically trash the entire fossil record, biology and frankly reality itself if it would otherwise mean forsaking all those feel good moments with family and church community.

I can actually feel some empathy for them to a certain extent as our societal experiences and feelings of approval are strong. But IMO evolution is too spot on correct and way, way too much evidence there of nature's and time's powerful winnowing processes to go back to believing in the simple- God created it all with his super omnipotence and omniscience. That answer is only good for questions we can't plausbly answer and evolution is plausible. Maybe God created the sub-atomic micro-molecular fabric of the Universe which is something we can't really fathom yet.

115 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:08:32pm

re: #87 Charles

No, it isn't. There's a mountain of evidence supporting evolution, and there's a mountain of evidence supporting AGW.

With all due respect Charles, how can you say that? Evolution has been front and center in scientific debate circles, courtrooms, and classrooms for well over a century now. In comparison, AGW hasn't even started to lose its little toe yet. Mountains of evidence aside, I don't believe you can equate the history of study between AGW and evolution.

116 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:08:51pm

From an email:

How many zeros are in a billion?
This is too true to be funny.

The next time you hear a politician use the word 'billion' in a casual manner, think about whether you want the 'politicians' spending YOUR tax money.

A billion is a difficult number to comprehend, but one advertising agency did a good job of putting that figure into some perspective in
one of it?s releases.

A. A billion seconds ago it was 1959.

B. A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.

C. A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age.

D. A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth..

E. A billion dollars ago was only 8 hours and 20 minutes, at the rate our government is spending it.


While this thought is still fresh in our brain...
let's take a look at New Orleans ...
It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division.

Louisiana Senator,
Mary Landrieu (D)
is presently asking Congress for
250 BILLION DOLLARS
to rebuild New Orleans Interesting number...
what does it mean?
A.
Well... if you are one of the 484,674 residents of New Orleans
(every man, woman, and child)
you each get $516,528.

B.
Or... if you have one of the 188,251 homes in
New Orleans , your home gets $1,329,787..

C.
Or... if you are a family of four...
your family gets $2,066,012.

Washington , D. C
HELLO!
Are all your calculators broken??

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges ( tax on top of tax )
IRS Penalties ( tax on top of tax )
Liquor Tax
Luxury Tax
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax Real Estate Tax
Service charge taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Ta x
State Income Tax
State Unemploy ment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal
Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Tax
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
Cable TV Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago...
and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.

We had absolutely no national debt...
We had the largest middle class in the world...
and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What happened?
Can you spell'politicians!'
And I still have to
press '1'
for English.

I hope this goes around the U S A at least 100 times

What happened???

ARE YOU MAD YET? YOU SHOULD BE!!!

117 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:12:44pm

OT - another right winger anti-government domestic terrorist is caught. This one had pipebombs and lots of guns. He accidentally blew up one of his pipebombs.

118 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:14:14pm

re: #115 borgcube

With all due respect Charles, how can you say that?

By typing the letters on my keyboard.

The evidence for global warming is overwhelming. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Arguing about which one is more overwhelming is pointless.

But it is absolutely true that the tactics of the creationists and the climate denialists are amazingly similar, which is what I wrote above.

119 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:14:53pm

re: #117 Cineaste

Are you sure it's not another union thug getting ready for another lockout/walkout?

120 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:14:56pm

re: #102 Racer X

Heh. I wish. The front yard is adorned with a myriad of animated displays and lights. At least I bought more LED lights this year. To reduce the global warmening.

Bob Chinn's Crab House in Wheeling, IL (not too far from where I live) has blue LED light adorning the trees on its property. They're quite nice and I plan to buy some LED lights if I can this year.

121 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:15:14pm

re: #116 Racer X

Our nation was not the most prosperous in the world 100 years ago. That would have been England.

And we are the most prosperous nation in the world today, despite all those onerous taxes. ("Dog license" taxes? Are you kidding me? Even my dog doesn't whine as much as you.)

Shove your Glenn Beckian shite up your ass.

122 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:16:40pm

re: #116 Racer X

Oh, and the part about pressing "1" for English?

Fold that seven ways, light it on fire, and shove it hard up your xenophobic urethra.

123 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:17:31pm

re: #78 Charles

What part of my comparison is unfair? I've seen all of those tactics right here at LGF -- I wasn't just making things up.

It's tricky, Charles. You're correct that the arguments of the AGW deniers and those of the ID-creationists sound the same, but in part that's because the Discovery Institute's creationists have studied how to feign scientific argumentation. The surface similarity between the Discovery Institute and any legitimate skeptic of another science is deliberate. They work at it.

Although most AGW deniers are probably kooks (loads of them certainly seem to be), for all I know it's possible that some aren't. I'm not capable of judging the climate science, so I'll leave it to the experts. But I'm quite capable of judging the politics of the AGW supporters. I see them doing just what Rahm Emmanuel advises -- never let a good crisis go to waste.

So I'm a hybrid AGW skeptic. I'm not an AGW denier. The science is what it is. My skepticism is only about the politics.

124 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:18:04pm

re: #117 Cineaste

OT - another right winger anti-government domestic terrorist is caught. This one had pipebombs and lots of guns. He accidentally blew up one of his pipebombs.

re: #117 Cineaste

OT - another right winger anti-government domestic terrorist is caught. This one had pipebombs and lots of guns. He accidentally blew up one of his pipebombs.

If a creationist loony blows himself up, can we still say "Darwin Akbar!"?

//

125 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:18:10pm

re: #122 Cato the Elder

Cato, let's remain civil, shall we?

126 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:18:51pm

re: #123 The Curmudgeon

It's tricky, Charles. You're correct that the arguments of the AGW deniers and those of the ID-creationists sound the same, but in part that's because the Discovery Institute's creationists have studied how to feign scientific argumentation. The surface similarity between the Discovery Institute and any legitimate skeptic of another science is deliberate. They work at it.

Although most AGW deniers are probably kooks (loads of them certainly seem to be), for all I know it's possible that some aren't. I'm not capable of judging the climate science, so I'll leave it to the experts. But I'm quite capable of judging the politics of the AGW supporters. I see them doing just what Rahm Emmanuel advises -- never let a good crisis go to waste.

So I'm a hybrid AGW skeptic. I'm not an AGW denier. The science is what it is. My skepticism is only about the politics.

Quite Concur.

127 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:19:00pm

re: #121 Cato the Elder

Our nation was not the most prosperous in the world 100 years ago. That would have been England.

And we are the most prosperous nation in the world today, despite all those onerous taxes. ("Dog license" taxes? Are you kidding me? Even my dog doesn't whine as much as you.)

Shove your Glenn Beckian shite up your ass.

Um, it was en email that I posted. I did not write any of it. I found certain aspects of it humorous / ironic.

Please, ignore me completely from now on.

Thank you.

128 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:23:42pm

re: #123 The Curmudgeon

Legitimate scientific debate is not the problem. And in fact, if you read the CRU emails, you can see plenty of that debate going on within the climatology community.

But there's a VERY sizeable contingent of the anti-AGW crowd that uses the same tactics as creationists, because they very often ARE creationists. See: James Inhofe, Michele Bachmann, etc.

There's a significant amount of crossover between anti-science creationists and anti-science climate deniers, and I've pointed out numerous examples of this.

129 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:24:26pm

I'm now getting email from haters upset about my post about the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal. Apparently I'm a "bigot" for linking to that news.

130 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:25:12pm

Annapurna Star Trails

131 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:25:40pm

re: #125 Bagua

Cato, let's remain civil, shall we?

Reposted teabagger emails posing as the latest sum of American wisdom get no civility from me.

132 ghazidor  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:26:17pm

re: #1 freetoken

Tricksy scientists with their tricks... always trying to hurt us...

I know, it just never stops, first they tell us that the earth isn't flat and even worse that it is not the center of the Universe.
Then they came up with "germ theory" ha what a crock, have you ever seen a germ?
Then they come up with "antibiotics" and "vaccinations" to fight against these supposed "germs."
Next thing you know they came up with all their scientificy "marvels" like electricity, running water, indoor plumbing, airplanes, computers, etc, etc.
People think they did all this to improve things for everyone, but no, the truth is they only did them to drive people away from God!
You can still them selling their fake "marvels" today, like "spaceflight" and "space stations" which any thinking person knows have to be faked.

Nope you just can't trust anything said by these so called "scientists."

///

133 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:26:50pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Reposted teabagger emails posing as the latest sum of American wisdom get no civility from me.

You could have made your point better without the profanity.

134 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:28:16pm

re: #114 dwells38

Here was my attempted response to Gus 802 in his post #35 which I screwed up due to inability to deal with quotes in html...

GUS SAID...
Creationist on Evolution:

Evolution is an atheistic plot to spread communistic eugenicist ideas and to advance the cause of secular progressives towards a Maoist-Stalinist world government!

THEN I SAID...
I disagee with this Gus. Creationists hang their hat on God. They can't stand that there's no scientific evidence for God. Many of them are very common sense type thinkers and they know deep down this implies there simply may be no God. And without delving into more exotic philosophical perspectves such as maybe God exists outside of spacetime and we can't detect Him/it they're left feeling like dupes. Since they don't even know what spacetime is in a lot of cases or they realize that it's still highly improvisational and speculative at best they'd rather narcisistically trash the entire fossil record, biology and frankly reality itself if it would otherwise mean forsaking all those feel good moments with family and church community.

I can actually feel some empathy for them to a certain extent as our societal experiences and feelings of approval are strong. But IMO evolution is too spot on correct and way, way too much evidence there of nature's and time's powerful winnowing processes to go back to believing in the simple- God created it all with his super omnipotence and omniscience. That answer is only good for questions we can't plausbly answer and evolution is plausible. Maybe God created the sub-atomic micro-molecular fabric of the Universe which is something we can't really fathom yet.

Like anyone cared anyway. LOL!!

135 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:28:49pm
136 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:30:26pm

re: #129 Charles

I'm now getting email from haters upset about my post about the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal. Apparently I'm a "bigot" for linking to that news.

I would not call you a bigot for that.

Acting as if the worldwide, universal, eternal pandemic of child sexual abuse and its cover-up were a particularly Catholic phenomenon would qualify as bigotry, but I've never seen you claim that.

The founder of Islam was a pedophile, which at least cannot be said of Christianity. And the pedophilia practiced and winked at among people whose nations we're trying vainly to build - Afghanistan springs to mind - is a matter of record.

137 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:31:16pm

If this thread turns into an ill-mannered pissing match, I'm going to start blocking accounts.

138 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:31:32pm

re: #129 Charles

I'm now getting email from haters upset about my post about the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal. Apparently I'm a "bigot" for linking to that news.

Where these people were when the Evangelical scandals were exposed?

This isn't about religion or faith per se. Rather, it is about removing that which denigrates religion and the church.

Sweeping the dirt under the rug doesn't remove the dirt. Over time and in the end, you have a whole lot of dirt that must be dealt with and that's' when you have to 'clean house'.

139 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:32:11pm

re: #137 Charles

If this thread turns into an ill-mannered pissing match, I'm going to start blocking accounts.

Sorry. Please accept my apologies.

BBL

140 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:32:17pm

re: #129 Charles

I'm now getting email from haters upset about my post about the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal. Apparently I'm a "bigot" for linking to that news.

It is a mark of honour.

I too am bigoted against sociopaths who are serial child sex predators.

141 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:33:05pm

re: #135 Racer X

LOL! I just avoid him. Let him be the one with the blood pressre issues.

142 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:33:59pm

#121 Cato the Elder

By what measure are we the most prosperous? Not by per capita GDP.

143 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:34:16pm

re: #128 Charles

Legitimate scientific debate is not the problem. And in fact, if you read the CRU emails, you can see plenty of that debate going on within the climatology community.

But there's a VERY sizeable contingent of the anti-AGW crowd that uses the same tactics as creationists, because they very often ARE creationists. See: James Inhofe, Michele Bachmann, etc.

Is that because the YEC's feel the need to discredit ALL science in order to preserve the integrity of their religious beliefs?
And for some reason it's not enough for them to concentrate on trying to discredit evolution, or even biology in general?
If so, then what other branches of science will be next to be lined up in their cross-hairs...medicine, chemistry, physics?
Unfuckingbelievable.

144 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:34:29pm

re: #129 Charles

I'm now getting email from haters upset about my post about the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal. Apparently I'm a "bigot" for linking to that news.

What do people want you to do - ignore it like the Church hierarchy has done?

145 Athens Runaway  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:34:30pm

OT:

Does anyone else remember the story from 2007 when Glenn Beck claimed that he and his family were getting death threats from Ron Paul supporters?

After that was the first time ever that Ron Paul appeared on his show (on CNN). I wonder if there's a correlation.

146 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:35:46pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

If a creationist loony blows himself up, can we still say "Darwin Akbar!"?

//

There is no God but Darwin, and Dawkins is his messenger. :)

(I was trying to come up with something funny involving God ==> Dog ==> Beagle ==> Darwin, but I couldn't make it work.)

147 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:36:42pm

re: #128 Charles

But there's a VERY sizeable contingent of the anti-AGW crowd that uses the same tactics as creationists, because they very often ARE creationists. See: James Inhofe, Michele Bachmann, etc.

There's a significant amount of crossover between anti-science creationists and anti-science climate deniers, and I've pointed out numerous examples of this.

Quite so. It's foolish for laymen to deny the science of global warming. And when they're also creationists, they have zero credibility on every topic. The experts will sort out the science. Politicians should focus on the politics.

148 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:36:45pm

re: #133 Bagua

You could have made your point better without the profanity.

Is that word a profanity or a vulgarity?

149 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:37:30pm

re: #146 Kruk

There is no God but Darwin, and Dawkins is his messenger.

There is no God, just Big Bang. And Hawking is its messenger.

150 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:39:12pm

re: #144 reine.de.tout

What do people want you to do - ignore it like the Church hierarchy has done?

Yep. They're very protective about the image of the Catholic Church. That image matter much to me too, but I want to improve it by being able to show that the monsters who abused and raped children have been removed and that new ones will not be able to take their place.

151 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:39:15pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Is that word a profanity or a vulgarity?

I used a vulgarity, an Irish word for a bodily function, and an anatomical term.

152 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:39:30pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Is that word a profanity or a vulgarity?

Both:

Main Entry: pro·fane
2 : to debase by a wrong, unworthy, or vulgar use

153 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:39:44pm

re: #121 Cato the Elder

Really, tell us the measure by which we're the most prosperous.

I'm sure there are measures by which we meet that criterion. I'm just wondering which ones you have in mind.

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:39:56pm
We had absolutely no national debt...
We had the largest middle class in the world...
and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

Ah, yes. Somehow the fantasy always leads back to Mom. I wonder if this person knows jack-shit about work conditions in 1909, or childbirth mortality, or how many children were lost to preventable diseases, or how hard women worked to keep their children alive, or what the slums of any major American city looked like. We're not even getting into race issues yet.

But no, no, it was GRAND.

//

155 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:40:02pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

Yep. They're very protective about the image of the Catholic Church. That image matter much to me too, but I want to improve it by being able to show that the monsters who abused and raped children have been removed and that new ones will not be able to take their place.

Which is precisely what is taking place now with all these revelations.

The true scandal would be silence in the press.

156 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:40:11pm

re: #149 Cato the Elder

There is no God, just Big Bang. And Hawking is its messenger.

Irreverence always works.

157 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:41:21pm

re: #153 Yanqui in Europe

Really, tell us the measure by which we're the most prosperous.

I'm sure there are measures by which we meet that criterion. I'm just wondering which ones you have in mind.

Who is this "we" of whom you speak, o expat?

158 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:41:22pm

re: #134 dwells38

I read the first one. Looked like the quote formatting was reversed.

Mine was just a play on words showing the portability of creationist logic which can be transferred to just about any topic. More like the cut and paste commentary we tend to see. Typically everything is always "blamed" on secular progressives.

I don't want to second guess why creationists believe as they do. The more populist versions are sometimes accidentally humorous. Back in "the old days" it was usually thought of as "God created the Earth" and that's were they left it. Of course this was before the televangelists turned their religion into a trend and competitive sport.

159 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:41:59pm

re: #149 Cato the Elder

There is no God, just Big Bang. And Hawking is its messenger.

To an atheist it was a Big Bang, but to a deist it may have just been a divine little fart.

160 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:42:23pm

re: #147 The Curmudgeon

Quite so. It's foolish for laymen to deny the science of global warming. And when they're also creationists, they have zero credibility on every topic. The experts will sort out the science. Politicians should focus on the politics.

I've deliberately stayed out of the political policy debate on this issue so far, because there's so much disinformation and dishonesty coming from the right wing that I think the first priority should be getting people to see that this is a real issue, with mountains of real scientific evidence behind it. It's kind of pointless to talk about policy, when a large percentage of the American public has been tricked into believing nonsense; there's no way to reach agreement on policies with this much well-poisoning going on.

And that, of course, is exactly the goal of the denialists -- to create so much noise that a policy consensus becomes impossible.

161 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:43:50pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

The people of the United States of America.

Doesn't Norway (for example) have a higher GDP per capita?

And if they do, by what standard are we the "most prosperous"?

162 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:44:01pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, yes. Somehow the fantasy always leads back to Mom. I wonder if this person knows jack-shit about work conditions in 1909, or childbirth mortality, or how many children were lost to preventable diseases, or how hard women worked to keep their children alive, or what the slums of any major American city looked like. We're not even getting into race issues yet.

But no, no, it was GRAND.//


Makes me think of this guy:
Shorpy Higginbotham

163 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:44:03pm

re: #154 SanFranciscoZionist

I saw a post on another site a few weeks ago which claimed that our society had gone backwards since the 1950s, except for "minor improvements such as civil rights and women's liberation." Gee, thanks for noticing such small things, bud.

164 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:45:51pm

re: #161 Yanqui in Europe

You will not take a hint, so I'll be blunt.

I'm ignoring you.

Talk to me in three weeks when you've established an interesting persona around here.

Oh, wait. You've been here since 2005.

Talk to me when you grow up.

165 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:48:11pm

re: #159 Spare O'Lake

To an atheist it was a Big Bang, but to a deist it may have just been a divine little fart.

I'm sure there's a joke about dark matter in there somewhere...

166 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:48:18pm

re: #164 Cato the Elder

Apparently you don't know the answer to my question. If you knew it, you would have told right away. If not GDP per capita then what? Still waiting...

167 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:48:30pm

re: #160 Charles

I understand your thinking on the timing. I'll welcome the moment when you do get into the political policy side very much however.

168 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:48:49pm

Told me, rather.

169 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:49:04pm

re: #166 Yanqui in Europe

Apparently you don't know the answer to my question. If you knew it, you would have told right away.

I think that's why you're getting ignored now.

170 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:49:07pm

re: #161 Yanqui in Europe

Have a downding. All you've been doing these last two threads is dogging Cato. Its like watching a Chihuahua nip at the ankles of a St. Bernard: It gets old after awhile, and the little dog is toast if the big dog gets pissed.

171 GreatWizard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:49:09pm

re: #123 The Curmudgeon

It's tricky, Charles. You're correct that the arguments of the AGW deniers and those of the ID-creationists sound the same, but in part that's because the Discovery Institute's creationists have studied how to feign scientific argumentation. The surface similarity between the Discovery Institute and any legitimate skeptic of another science is deliberate. They work at it.

Although most AGW deniers are probably kooks (loads of them certainly seem to be), for all I know it's possible that some aren't. I'm not capable of judging the climate science, so I'll leave it to the experts. But I'm quite capable of judging the politics of the AGW supporters. I see them doing just what Rahm Emmanuel advises -- never let a good crisis go to waste.

So I'm a hybrid AGW skeptic. I'm not an AGW denier. The science is what it is. My skepticism is only about the politics.

Bravo! Thats what I was trying to say

172 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:50:01pm
173 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:50:14pm

re: #166 Yanqui in Europe

Apparently you don't know the answer to my question. If you knew it, you would have told right away. If not GDP per capita then what? Still waiting...

Why on earth would you believe prosperity is a measurement of materialism only?

174 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:50:23pm

re: #123 The Curmudgeon

Note that resident denialists at LGF are very pleased with your comment.

175 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:50:37pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

The Chihuahua made the St. Bernard run away, I guess.

176 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:50:51pm

re: #160 Charles

What poisoned the well for this right-winger long before it was even a thought on this blog was the scaremongering coupled with the anti-capitalist, anti free-market and anti-middle class 'solutions' proposed by the AGW true-believers in the form of punitive taxes and energy prices.

These 'carbon offset' schemes and shouting down any form of disagreement have done nothing to dissuade me that money and control in the name of saving the planet is what it's all about.

177 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:51:33pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

Haha, I know. But he specifically asked me to post comments. Now that I have, he refuses to respond!

178 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:52:01pm

re: #176 Fenway_Nation

I know. It's always more attractive to believe the side that tells you there's no problem, everything's fine, no need to worry or make any sacrifices, just roll over and go back to sleep.

179 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:52:46pm

re: #177 Yanqui in Europe

That's his M.O. when he can't respond. Ad hominem attacks or dismissing his opponent completely out of hand.

180 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:53:51pm

re: #173 researchok

Then how do we measure prosperity? You tell me.

181 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:55:13pm

re: #180 Yanqui in Europe

Then how do we measure prosperity? You tell me.

Excellent question. Does freedom of speech, for example, fall under "prosperity" or quality of life, and which of these two is more important.

(OKay, slanted question, I know.)

182 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:55:31pm

re: #160 Charles

I've deliberately stayed out of the political policy debate on this issue so far ...

Here we don't agree. If there were a consensus that the solutions (nuclear power, etc.) should be left to free markets and private enterprise, rather than to Al Gore and the UN (yeah, I'm over-simplifying) then any one-worlder types promoting AGW would have the wind taken right out of them. And the right-wing science deniers wouldn't have anything to argue about.

But there won't be such a consensus, so some of the free-enterprise types adopt kooky anti-science arguments. A sad situation.

183 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:56:12pm
184 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:56:34pm

re: #129 Charles

I'm now getting email from haters upset about my post about the Catholic Church's child abuse scandal. Apparently I'm a "bigot" for linking to that news.

Just another "oops" by the Catholic Church, like the Spanish Inquisition and forcing Galileo's recantation.

185 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:57:31pm

Europe is in possession of great cultures, wines, cheese and art, accumulated over centuries.

The Americans idea of prosperity is very different than the European version. Americans believe their cultural identity- and real national prosperity- is derived from great ideas and not great cheese or great paintings.

186 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:57:58pm

re: #174 Charles

Note that resident denialists at LGF are very pleased with your comment.

I'm often misunderstood. I suspect you know the feeling.

187 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:58:03pm

re: #180 Yanqui in Europe

Then how do we measure prosperity? You tell me.

See above.

188 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:58:15pm

re: #178 Charles

I know. It's always more attractive to believe the side that tells you there's no problem, everything's fine, no need to worry or make any sacrifices, just roll over and go back to sleep.

Why? What sort of sacrifices are the AGW true-believers willing to make in order to lead by example? Billionaires remodeling their houses so one of their advocacy groups can call it 'green' or throwing money at a carbon offset fund isn't exactly my idea of sacrifice.

What's wrong with a free-market solution to alternative energy? Instead of brow-beating tEh stoopid right-wingers on how stupid and evil they are, how about the AGW true-belivers drive home some points about how alternative or renewable enrgy sources could do things like lessen our dependence on oil from thugs like the Saudi oil ticks ortHugo Chavez?

189 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:58:26pm

re: #123 The Curmudgeon

It's tricky, Charles. [...]

I'm reversing my ding as I've just clocked on the the "It's tricky, Charles" bit.

I thought you meant it was tricky what the Discovery Institute did.

190 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:59:13pm

re: #181 EmmmieG

So, when people like Cato the Elder say that we are the most prosperous nation on earth, they just mean that we have the most freedom of speech? Even if we were, materially speaking, the poorest nation on earth? I doubt that that's what he (she) means. I assumed prosperity had something to do with wealth.

191 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:59:16pm

re: #185 researchok

Europe is in possession of great cultures, wines, cheese and art, accumulated over centuries.

The Americans idea of prosperity is very different than the European version. Americans believe their cultural identity- and real national prosperity- is derived from great ideas and not great cheese or great paintings.

Not quite true.

We buy all the surplus cheese and paintings with our excess wealth. If you want to sell your ancestral portraits, where you gonna go? Norway?

192 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:59:19pm

re: #176 Fenway_Nation

Fenway, did you hear about that Islamist bombing of a train in Russia? If so, what are your thoughts as our resident railroad expert?

193 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:00:23pm

re: #182 The Curmudgeon

Here we don't agree. If there were a consensus that the solutions (nuclear power, etc.) should be left to free markets and private enterprise, rather than to Al Gore and the UN (yeah, I'm over-simplifying) then any one-worlder types promoting AGW would have the wind taken right out of them. And the right-wing science deniers wouldn't have anything to argue about.

But there won't be such a consensus, so some of the free-enterprise types adopt kooky anti-science arguments. A sad situation.

The problem with leaving it up to the free market is that some of the biggest players in that market -- i.e. the energy industries -- are pumping many millions of dollars into an effort to convince the US public that they shouldn't believe the AGW science. And they're doing this to protect their bottom lines.

It's very similar to what happened when the link between tobacco smoking and cancer became indisputable. The tobacco industry spent hundreds of millions of dollars on campaigns to trick people into disbelieving the scientific evidence, because it threatened their profits.

And in fact, many of the groups who are now the most deceptive anti-AGW agents got their start as tobacco industry shills. This connection isn't a coincidence.

194 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:01:18pm

re: #190 Yanqui in Europe

So, when people like Cato the Elder say that we are the most prosperous nation on earth, they just mean that we have the most freedom of speech? Even if we were, materially speaking, the poorest nation on earth? I doubt that that's what he (she) means. I assumed prosperity had something to do with wealth.

I was merely throwing out that there are things that make a place worth living that aren't measured in currency.

I wouldn't trade my freedom of religion for anything.

I suppose we could make an equation that factored in wealth, freedoms, liveability of a place (I could not stand a Norwegian winter, for example.), and so on. I believe there are actually websites--seen them referenced here--that measure freedom, stability, etc. of a country.

195 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:01:46pm

re: #191 Cato the Elder

Not quite true.

We buy all the surplus cheese and paintings with our excess wealth. If you want to sell your ancestral portraits, where you gonna go? Norway?

True- but our national identity isn't defined by cheese or paintings.

We take great pride in our 'wretched refuse' identity.

196 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:02:11pm

re: #161 Yanqui in Europe

The people of the United States of America.

Doesn't Norway (for example) have a higher GDP per capita?

And if they do, by what standard are we the "most prosperous"?

Norway does indeed. LOTS of oil and gas drilling going on there! Shhh, big secret. Oil and gas account for 1/3 of all state revenues. Shhh. Big secret. Norway is pretty green, but it enjoys a high standard of living nowadays almost exclusively due to the huge amount of oil and gas it exports. Shhh...big secret. I don't even think Hopenhagen knows yet. Wait until those folks find out that the per capita GDP is almost 75K in Norway.

Henge på din lommebok! As they say in Norway. (Hang on to your wallets)

197 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:02:52pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

Not the first time that's been tried- I think there was an unsuccessful attack in 2007...

If it were the Chechens or the like, I thought they'd go after a train more in the south of the country. But then again, this could serve notice that their reach goes beyond Chechneya or Dagestan...

198 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:03:05pm

re: #194 EmmmieG

Do you really think you would not enjoy the freedom of religion you do in the U.S. if you moved to Norway or Belgium or wherever in the European Union?

199 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:03:06pm

re: #193 Charles


And in fact, many of the groups who are now the most deceptive anti-AGW agents got their start as tobacco industry shills. This connection isn't a coincidence.


One of the most common sponsors of the Tea Parties is also one pro-tobacco groups. I didn't think they were around anymore.

200 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:03:17pm

Norway's population is of course still under 5 million.

201 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:04:26pm

Lotsa' venting going on.

It reminds me of the LP "Let it Bleed".

Gimme' shelter.

Youtube Video
202 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:05:01pm

re: #193 Charles

The problem with leaving it up to the free market is that some of the biggest players in that market -- i.e. the energy industries -- are pumping many millions of dollars into an effort to convince the US public that they shouldn't believe the AGW science. And they're doing this to protect their bottom lines.

It's very similar to what happened when the link between tobacco smoking and cancer became indisputable. The tobacco industry spent hundreds of millions of dollars on campaigns to trick people into disbelieving the scientific evidence, because it threatened their profits.

And in fact, many of the groups who are now the most deceptive anti-AGW agents got their start as tobacco industry shills. This connection isn't a coincidence.

I hear you, Charles, but I'm not comfortable with governments simply dictating things. I'd rather find a way to get the corporations on board, perhaps by finding other nitches for them.

203 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:05:18pm

re: #193 Charles

And in fact, many of the groups who are now the most deceptive anti-AGW agents got their start as tobacco industry shills. This connection isn't a coincidence.

There's a lot I don't know. Maybe I should stick with bashing the creationists.

204 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:05:23pm

re: #198 Yanqui in Europe

Do you really think you would not enjoy the freedom of religion you do in the U.S. if you moved to Norway or Belgium or wherever in the European Union?

Minority and not so minority religious populations live in fear in some parts of Europe.

There is a vast difference between 'religious freedom' here and there.

205 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:05:40pm

re: #196 borgcube

Norway does indeed. LOTS of oil and gas drilling going on there! Shhh, big secret. Oil and gas account for 1/3 of all state revenues. Shhh. Big secret. Norway is pretty green, but it enjoys a high standard of living nowadays almost exclusively due to the huge amount of oil and gas it exports. Shhh...big secret. I don't even think Hopenhagen knows yet. Wait until those folks find out that the per capita GDP is almost 75K in Norway.

Henge på din lommebok! As they say in Norway. (Hang on to your wallets)

Yes. Green Norway finances its standard of living selling CO2-producing pollutants to all comers.

I'm so humbled in the face of their superior ecological consciousness tall, blonde, high-breasted porn stars.

206 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:06:39pm

re: #193 Charles

The problem with leaving it up to the free market is that some of the biggest players in that market -- i.e. the energy industries -- are pumping many millions of dollars into an effort to convince the US public that they shouldn't believe the AGW science. And they're doing this to protect their bottom lines.

It's very similar to what happened when the link between tobacco smoking and cancer became indisputable. The tobacco industry spent hundreds of millions of dollars on campaigns to trick people into disbelieving the scientific evidence, because it threatened their profits.

And in fact, many of the groups who are now the most deceptive anti-AGW agents got their start as tobacco industry shills. This connection isn't a coincidence.

One of the allied front groups for CEI that is suing NASA under the FOIA was also involved with stopping air bag requirements. We've probably run into people like this before -- the types that think seat belts will actually kill you. Speaking of which the auto industry was dead set against seat belt regulations and emissions standards.

207 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:07:13pm

My tap water tastes like shit for a reason...
PORTLAND WATER BUREAU CUSTOMERS WEST OF THE WILLAMETTE RIVER AND CUSTOMERS OF BURLINGTON, PALATINE HILL AND VALLEY VIEW WATER DISTRICTS SHOULD BOIL WATER BEFORE USING

Routine water quality samples for total coliforms, including E. coli, were confirmed for fecal contamination in a Washington Park open reservoir on November 28, 2009. Fecal coliforms and E. coli are bacteria whose presence indicates that the water may be contaminated with human or animal wastes.

208 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:07:18pm

re: #191 Cato the Elder

We're not even allowed to import unpasteurized cheeses in the U.S.

209 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:07:40pm

re: #198 Yanqui in Europe

Do you really think you would not enjoy the freedom of religion you do in the U.S. if you moved to Norway or Belgium or wherever in the European Union?

Oh, dear me.

210 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:07:42pm

Culture of Denial: Evolution, Global Warming, and Big Tobacco.

Youtube Video
211 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:07:49pm

re: #208 Yanqui in Europe

We're not even allowed to import unpasteurized cheeses in the U.S.

Bullshit. I buy them all the time at Whole Foods.

212 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:08:06pm

re: #206 Gus 802

We've probably run into people like this before -- the types that think seat belts will actually kill you. Speaking of which the auto industry was dead set against seat belt regulations and emissions standards.

Good point.

213 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:08:28pm

re: #207 Killgore Trout

(((KilgoreTrout)))

Shit happens.

214 Bagua  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:08:43pm

AGW sceptics also have to raise their game. A good start is to expose the liars and the shills.

215 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:08:51pm

re: #203 The Curmudgeon

There's a lot I don't know. Maybe I should stick with bashing the creationists.

I was pointed in the direction of this link by Freetoken:

The Discovery of Global Warming

Start at the introduction, and then check out the home page for other essays. I've been working my way through this site, and it's taught me a lot. Not too dumbed down, not too over my head. Just understandable science for the regular folks looking to learn more. Hope this helps.

216 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:08:54pm

I'm curious...

All those tanks and Apaches that the Israelis have at their disposal- they all require oil.

Who sells Israel the oil? Does it come from Europe? Is it available domestically there? I remember hearing either the house of Saud or the Iranian mullahs chiding one of the smaller Gulf states for selling oil to 'the zionist entity', but that was a while back, and I'm not sure what percentage of imports that accounts for or even if they're still doing business w/Israel.

217 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:08:55pm

re: #207 Killgore Trout

*smoochie*

218 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:09:04pm

re: #207 Killgore Trout

My tap water tastes like shit for a reason...
PORTLAND WATER BUREAU CUSTOMERS WEST OF THE WILLAMETTE RIVER AND CUSTOMERS OF BURLINGTON, PALATINE HILL AND VALLEY VIEW WATER DISTRICTS SHOULD BOIL WATER BEFORE USING

Ron Paul sez there shouldn't even be a water bureau! It should be left to the free market. And if you get sick, sue 'em!

//

219 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:09:35pm

re: #208 Yanqui in Europe

We're not even allowed to import unpasteurized cheeses in the U.S.

Why do you care? You're not here?

220 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:10:12pm

re: #217 MandyManners

*smoochie*

I'd kiss you but I have ass breath after drinking the water here.

221 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:10:20pm

re: #207 Killgore Trout

My tap water tastes like shit for a reason...
PORTLAND WATER BUREAU CUSTOMERS WEST OF THE WILLAMETTE RIVER AND CUSTOMERS OF BURLINGTON, PALATINE HILL AND VALLEY VIEW WATER DISTRICTS SHOULD BOIL WATER BEFORE USING

Reverse Osmosis, if you can.

222 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:10:25pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Socialism!

223 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:10:45pm

re: #205 Cato the Elder

Yes. Green Norway finances its standard of living selling CO2-producing pollutants to all comers.

I'm so humbled in the face of their superior ecological consciousness tall, blonde, high-breasted porn stars.

Norway is also a nanny type state and has for a long time imposed high entry barriers to anyone who wants to go into business for themselves and high taxes for thise who succeed. That has led to a real brain drain,

Guess where smart and industrious Scandinavians move to?

224 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:11:15pm

re: #221 Floral Giraffe

My rain barrels are full. I haven't used it for drinking water before but this seems a nice time to give it a try.

225 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:11:35pm

re: #211 Cato the Elder

Cato, OK, too bad there was no Whole Foods where I used to live. I look forward to returning to the US.

226 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:11:55pm

re: #216 Fenway_Nation

I'm curious...

All those tanks and Apaches that the Israelis have at their disposal- they all require oil.

Who sells Israel the oil? Does it come from Europe? Is it available domestically there? I remember hearing either the house of Saud or the Iranian mullahs chiding one of the smaller Gulf states for selling oil to 'the zionist entity', but that was a while back, and I'm not sure what percentage of imports that accounts for or even if they're still doing business w/Israel.

Russia.

227 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:12:05pm

re: #224 Killgore Trout

For you, your plants & your animals.
Yes, now, is a good time!

228 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:13:10pm

None of us will get what we want in life.

Youtube Video

Now, pardon me while I throw myself to the floor, kick my heels and hold my freakin' breath.

Wah.

229 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:13:41pm

re: #209 MandyManners

Yes, I'm serious. In what way do you think your freedom of religion would be abridged in, say, Germany?

230 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:13:45pm

re: #225 Yanqui in Europe

Cato, OK, too bad there was no Whole Foods where I used to live. I look forward to returning to the US.

I doubt the sentiment is mutual, on the part of the US.

231 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:13:47pm

re: #198 Yanqui in Europe

Do you really think you would not enjoy the freedom of religion you do in the U.S. if you moved to Norway or Belgium or wherever in the European Union?


No. If I lived in France, I would have to be civilly married before I could be religiously married. In Germany, certain religions have their tithes collected for them by the state. A girl was removed from her family because they wished to homeschool her per their religion. In England, the official head of state (the Queen) is still the head of the church. Great Britain finally did away with the law outlawing blasphemy in...2008.

I'm not saying they're oppressive. I'm saying the US has the longest and best tradition of staying out of religious matters. (Unless they turn criminal, obviously. You can't have a Church of Pickpocketing.)

232 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:14:06pm

re: #226 Alouette


Interesting. I did not know that.

233 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:14:19pm

re: #207 Killgore Trout

My tap water tastes like shit for a reason...
PORTLAND WATER BUREAU CUSTOMERS WEST OF THE WILLAMETTE RIVER AND CUSTOMERS OF BURLINGTON, PALATINE HILL AND VALLEY VIEW WATER DISTRICTS SHOULD BOIL WATER BEFORE USING

Somehow, the idea of boiling it doesn't even make it more palatable.

234 dwells38  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:14:21pm

re: #158 Gus 802

Thanks Gus. Glad you figured out my muddle.

235 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:14:54pm

re: #231 EmmmieG

(Unless they turn criminal, obviously. You can't have a Church of Pickpocketing.)


Scientology is working on that.

236 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:15:33pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

I'd kiss you but I have ass breath after drinking the water here.

Oh, dearie me oh my! I about fell out of my chair!

Go ahead, Kilgore.

Gimme' a kiss. Right here. On the cheek.

237 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:16:10pm

re: #231 EmmmieG

OK, you have a point. As far as state/church religion separation goes, most European countries are far behind the U.S.

238 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:02pm

re: #237 Yanqui in Europe

OK, you have a point. As far as state/church religion separation goes, most European countries are far behind the U.S.

To state the obvious, though, they are far above, say, Saudi Arabia.

239 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:05pm

re: #229 Yanqui in Europe

Yes, I'm serious. In what way do you think your freedom of religion would be abridged in, say, Germany?

Pardon my utter bitchiness but, HOW OLD ARE YOU?

240 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:06pm

re: #230 Cato the Elder

I doubt the sentiment is mutual, on the part of the US.

You asked for it, Yanqui. You made Cato angry, and now he'll make you cry. And he's very good at it.

241 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:21pm

re: #224 Killgore Trout

You should call/email & ask about using the contaminated water on food crops. You may want to use all that's in your rainbarrels.
I don't remember if ecolli or salmonella is a problem with food crops from the water...

242 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:25pm

re: #230 Cato the Elder

You don't think the US of A looks forward to welcoming me back? :)

243 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:26pm

re: #237 Yanqui in Europe

OK, you have a point. As far as state/church religion separation goes, most European countries are far behind the U.S.

There is also the practical applications.

Jews are under assault in many European communities as local governments turn a blind eye.

244 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:17:57pm

re: #229 Yanqui in Europe

Yes, I'm serious. In what way do you think your freedom of religion would be abridged in, say, Germany?

For one thing, you would have a hard time being a $cientologist.

I hate $cientology, but still.

More to the point, there are maybe five state-recognized churches/religions in Germany for which the fiscal authority collects revenue straight out of your paycheck. If you are born a Catholic and registered as such, you have to officially leave the Church to avoid such state-church collusion. You cannot be a Catholic and decide for yourself what portion of your income goes to the Church.

Again, I suggest you learn a thing or two before presenting yourself as some kind of authority around here.

245 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:18:08pm

re: #236 MandyManners

*smoooch!*

246 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:18:14pm
Youtube Video
247 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:19:07pm

re: #242 Yanqui in Europe

You don't think the US of A looks forward to welcoming me back? :)

Your friends and family, maybe. I cannot speak for the Department of Homeland Security. ;^)

248 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:19:10pm

re: #174 Charles

Note that resident denialists at LGF are very pleased with your comment.

I don't think that's fair Charles. It's one thing to deny the entire premise of AGW, another to be rightfully suspicious of the political motivations and money grab going on surrounding it.

My interest is on the political side of the equation, and yes, I'm a huge skeptic of pretty much anything governments want to do when they claim an absolute moral authority to take action, let alone one as grandiose as saving the world.

To me, that's as scary as anything the idiot creationists can spit out of their self published books. In fact, it's far worse in my opinion. I don't have to pony up the money to buy creationist fairy tales, but I'm forced to hand over my wallet over and over again for government malfeasance.

Guilty as charged I suppose.

249 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:19:25pm

re: #241 Floral Giraffe

You should call/email & ask about using the contaminated water on food crops. You may want to use all that's in your rainbarrels.
I don't remember if ecolli or salmonella is a problem with food crops from the water...

We have enough rain this time of year that there's no need to water. I use the rainwater for my hydroponics so I should be safe.

250 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:19:41pm

re: #242 Yanqui in Europe

You've been very polite and have presented your arguments well, imo. I'm not sure why you're getting jumped so badly tonight, but I'd buy you a welcome home beer.

251 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:20:24pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

*smoooch!*

Backatcha'.

Take care, Kilgore.

252 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:20:57pm

re: #244 Cato the Elder

I'm not presenting myself as an authority, but yes indeed, Scientology has a harder time running its extortion racket in Germany than it does in the U.S. Is that a bad thing?

253 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:21:09pm

re: #242 Yanqui in Europe

You don't think the US of A looks forward to welcoming me back? :)

And (see above) I think you'll have a date with Smurfette.

254 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:21:42pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

We have enough rain this time of year that there's no need to water. I use the rainwater for my hydroponics so I should be safe.

I would still take the time to ask the questions. Then you'll know in the future!

255 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:21:48pm

OT, Public Television here is running the Roy Orbison Black and White concert.

It really is a terrific show.

256 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:21:57pm

re: re: #252 Yanqui in Europe

I'm not presenting myself as an authority, but yes indeed, Scientology has a harder time running its extortion racket in Germany than it does in the U.S. Is that a bad thing?

c/185/7905242">#185 researchok

See my main point, clown.

257 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:22:18pm

re: #252 Yanqui in Europe

I'm not presenting myself as an authority, but yes indeed, Scientology has a harder time running its extortion racket in Germany than it does in the U.S. Is that a bad thing?

See my main point, clown.

258 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:22:28pm

Surprised Kitty

Liveleak Video
259 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:22:40pm

re: #255 researchok

Such a beautiful voice!

260 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:22:41pm

re: #253 Cato the Elder

And (see above) I think you'll have a date with Smurfette.

I thought you were going to bed?

261 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:22:51pm

re: #248 borgcube

Like other issues, AGW gets subjected to the extremes argument. Neither an unregulated "free" market nor our opponents at the UN are going to show us the best way through this.

262 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:23:20pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

OMG! That was priceless.

263 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:24:02pm
Youtube Video

Don't mind the Enclave Advance Power Armor.

264 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:24:08pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

Oh, teh cuteness! That made my heart ache!

265 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:24:29pm

If you'd like to know more about the big tobacco connection to global warming denial groups, I highly recommend this excellent book:

Doubt is Their Product: How Industry's Assault on Science Threatens Your Health.

266 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:24:31pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

Surprised Kitty

That is too cute!

267 Yanqui in Europe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:24:37pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

I guess I haven't seen the point.

Anyway, good night, all!

268 borgcube  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:25:18pm

re: #261 Rightwingconspirator

Like other issues, AGW gets subjected to the extremes argument. Neither an unregulated "free" market nor our opponents at the UN are going to show us the best way through this.

Agreed. Forced at gunpoint however, I'll take the first choice. OK, even forced at pop-gun I'll take that route.

269 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:25:48pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

So cute my head exploded into candy.

270 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:26:19pm

re: #260 Sharmuta

I thought you were going to bed?

You thought I meant that something to set your stopped clock by?

271 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:27:35pm

re: #226 Alouette

Addendum...I thought there was some sort of openly secret arrangement where the house of Saud publicly declares over and over that they shall never do business with 'the Zionist entity'...but instead- and very discreetly- do business with a third party...like the Cypriots...buy much more oil than they need from the Saudis, then sell the excess to Israel at a slight markup.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if such an arrangement was in place at one time.

272 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:27:45pm

Pulling out the stops.

273 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:28:45pm

re: #269 Idle Drifter

So cute my head exploded into candy.

Lol

274 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:29:01pm

re: #265 Charles

Got anything about 'Big Insurance' or 'Big Pharma' opposition to the various healthcare proposals?

275 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:29:22pm

re: #271 Fenway_Nation

Addendum...I thought there was some sort of openly secret arrangement where the house of Saud publicly declares over and over that they shall never do business with 'the Zionist entity'...but instead- and very discreetly- do business with a third party...like the Cypriots...buy much more oil than they need from the Saudis, then sell the excess to Israel at a slight markup.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if such an arrangement was in place at one time.

No need for all that drama. Oil tankers loads can change hands many times on the high seas or in Amsterdam.

276 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:29:44pm

re: #269 Idle Drifter

So cute my head exploded into candy.


Root beer barrels, I hope.

277 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:30:02pm

I meant to say Rotterdam.

278 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:30:36pm

re: #275 researchok

Why Amsterdam? Is there some sort of loophole that's specific to Amsterdam?

279 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:30:40pm

Lizard Fight Video

280 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:31:00pm

re: #223 researchok

Norway is also a nanny type state and has for a long time imposed high entry barriers to anyone who wants to go into business for themselves and high taxes for thise who succeed. That has led to a real brain drain,

Guess where smart and industrious Scandinavians move to?

Umm, I was going to say Gaza, but that can't be right...

281 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:31:19pm

re: #78 Charles

What part of my comparison is unfair? I've seen all of those tactics right here at LGF -- I wasn't just making things up.

The part that was unfair was "...And they are very often the same people." Saying that time flies like an arrow and fruit flies like a banana does not imply that a banana flies like an arrow.

I'll put a target on my back: I'm an AGW skeptic. Not a denier. A denier sits there with his/her hands over her ears going "la la la". There's a website [Link: chiefio.wordpress.com...] where the owner has been parsing the GIStemp data calculations and its origins at the GHCN data since April 09. Basically, his hypothesis is that the GHCN data is being improperly adjusted in order to account for the movement/addition/deletion of stations. I haven't played with FORTRAN in over 20 years, but I thoroughly understand data acquisition, manipulation and trend analysis. His analysis makes sense, and no one is refuting it.

Don't argue with me about his analysis. Go over there and argue with the source, especially if you're a coder.

282 freetoken  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:31:20pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

One of the reasons I recommend that site is the amount of historical background Spencer included. Many people believe, I fear, that somehow AGW just dropped out of the sky with the appearance of Al Gore (or some suitable substitute well known figure.)

That is not the way science works. Decade after decade, new avenues of research takes scientists down certain roads, sometimes to places not intended. When Tyndall first investigated thermodynamics and gases he had no clue that we would be discussing a subject a century and a half later that is based on his first insights.

The obfuscation of the long history of climatology by the deniers is part of the reason they are called "deniers".

Regardless of how we deal with the human impact upon our world, or don't deal with as the case looks likely, there is no good reason to deny the reality of the history of the science or its current state.

283 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:31:35pm

re: #277 researchok

I meant to say Rotterdam.


Or Rotterdam, even?

284 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:31:55pm

re: #278 Fenway_Nation

Why Amsterdam? Is there some sort of loophole that's specific to Amsterdam?

That's where all the big oil tank storage facilities are.

285 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:33:30pm

re: #270 Cato the Elder

ΠΙΜΦ: "...meant that as something..."

286 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:33:49pm

re: #284 researchok

Ah...OK- I thought you were talking offshore (but still within Dutch waters) still.

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:34:49pm

re: #163 Kruk

I saw a post on another site a few weeks ago which claimed that our society had gone backwards since the 1950s, except for "minor improvements such as civil rights and women's liberation." Gee, thanks for noticing such small things, bud.

Minor improvements. Jaysus.

288 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:35:15pm

I'm about done.

Youtube Video
289 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:36:16pm

Mama Moonbat is still at it...
Tempers Flare At Anti-War Rally At Travis AFB

A tense Saturday rally led by anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan at Travis Air Force Base nearly sparked a brawl when a military veteran physically confronted the protesters.

Anti-war group Code Pink demonstrated at the military base Saturday morning in the first of six planned protests against unmanned military drones currently in use in overseas war zones.


Video here

290 Athens Runaway  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:36:17pm

re: #277 researchok

I meant to say Rotterdam.

Every time I hear of Rotterdam, I think of "Ender's Shadow."

I didn't get a positive impression of what the city's like from that book.

291 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:36:20pm

When will the Vegans jump in?

Gee.

292 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:37:02pm

Conveniet.

293 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:37:08pm

re: #184 nmdesertrat

Just another "oops" by the Catholic Church, like the Spanish Inquisition and forcing Galileo's recantation.

Let's try to focus on things the Church actually has a chance to fix, OK?

294 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:37:22pm

re: #55 sattv4u2

44 comments in 3 years (just a tad over one a month)

After that one, we won't "see" you till about the 3rd week of December, huh?
Pacing yourself!?!?

Which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead? Let's try a scientific experiment: you hit me with a feather pillow and I'll hit you
with a lead pipe.

295 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:37:47pm

re: #291 MandyManners

When will the Vegans jump in?

Gee.

Vegans never jump unless it be in place.

They might squish a bug.

296 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:40:04pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

Wow! Watch the second video of the veteran speaking explaining himself. Well done , sir!

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:41:03pm

re: #185 researchok

Europe is in possession of great cultures, wines, cheese and art, accumulated over centuries.

The Americans idea of prosperity is very different than the European version. Americans believe their cultural identity- and real national prosperity- is derived from great ideas and not great cheese or great paintings.

America has great cheese. Cowgirl Creameries, down by Point Reyes, makes great cheese. And the wines from Napa rival French vintages, have done for decades.

I mean, I'd still want to be an American even if our cheese and wine sucked, but really, we can do anything. And do.

298 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:41:49pm

re: #293 SanFranciscoZionist

Let's try to focus on things the Church actually has a chance to fix, OK?

Ok, how much longer are we going to give them? They've been dealing with (wishing it would all blow over) this problem for what, 20, 30 years?

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:42:55pm

re: #198 Yanqui in Europe

Do you really think you would not enjoy the freedom of religion you do in the U.S. if you moved to Norway or Belgium or wherever in the European Union?

Well, having lived in a country (the U.S.) where we need rather fewer armed guards outside synagogues than they do in Europe, I'm gonna vote, yes, I think that.

300 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:42:55pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

I can see why they'd protest unmanned drones...less boots on the ground for a strike/raid means less likelyhood of a soldier or Marine coming back in a body-bag for them to do their ghoulish 'neener-neener' dance under the guise of feigning concern for the high cost of war.

I'm not even sure what Travis' role with the drones is- it's probably the nearest Air Force base to Momma Moonbat. IIRC, the drones aren't even controlled out of Travis, the remote operators are based out of...somewhere that isn't Travis.

My housing @ Travis had a mouse scurrying across the floor. Plus I thin I left my dogtags there...

301 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:43:25pm

re: #281 nmdesertrat

The part that was unfair was "...And they are very often the same people." Saying that time flies like an arrow and fruit flies like a banana does not imply that a banana flies like an arrow.

It's true. They are very often the same people. I realize you don't like hearing it, but the post at the top of this thread is FAR from the only example.

302 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:44:34pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

America has great cheese. Cowgirl Creameries, down by Point Reyes, makes great cheese. And the wines from Napa rival French vintages, have done for decades.

I mean, I'd still want to be an American even if our cheese and wine sucked, but really, we can do anything. And do.

No. There is no American cheese that can stand up to Epoisses de Bourgogne. It simply doesn't exist.

We cannot do everything the French can, anymore than Orleans jazz is equal to what you'll hear in New Orleans. Not to admit that is blindness.

303 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:46:13pm

re: #188 Fenway_Nation

Why? What sort of sacrifices are the AGW true-believers willing to make in order to lead by example? Billionaires remodeling their houses so one of their advocacy groups can call it 'green' or throwing money at a carbon offset fund isn't exactly my idea of sacrifice.

What's wrong with a free-market solution to alternative energy? Instead of brow-beating tEh stoopid right-wingers on how stupid and evil they are, how about the AGW true-belivers drive home some points about how alternative or renewable enrgy sources could do things like lessen our dependence on oil from thugs like the Saudi oil ticks ortHugo Chavez?

"Sacrifice" won't cut it. My house is better insulated than most. We have lower utility bills in consequence. I live close to work and my commute is regularly a matter of bicycling in. These aren't sacrifices, though. They're arrangements that make sense AGW or not.

The answer for our civilization as a whole must be consistent with peoples' self interest. Asking for sacrifice attracts a few hair-shirters and a few "look at me" types, but the masses aren't going to buy it.

We can perhaps speed the current pace of development of wind and solar by subsidizing it modestly until it can stand against coal fired electricity on its own. We can rewrite some laws so that transmission lines to carry such power to the cities are exempt from environmental restrictions that might otherwise apply. We can get over our inordinate fear of nuclear power and build, baby, build. And then we can have our technical civilization and not have to eat the consequences of goosing atmospheric CO2 levels to dangerous extremes.

Oh, and I am a right-winger. I want capitalism and freedom. I oppose "cap and trade". I oppose silliness such as "cash for clunkers". I think "carbon offsets" are no different from the middle ages practice of selling indulgences. No actual carbon reductions of any consequence result from the activities that sooth the breast of the conscientious buyer of the offset.

304 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:47:08pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

Mama Moonbat is still at it...
Tempers Flare At Anti-War Rally At Travis AFB


Video here

Looked like Sheehan stuck that bullhorn into his face then he responded. I would say she threw the first blow. Then they surrounded him.

I'm curious. Why does is seem like all of these Code Pinkers have an affected voice. It's like this high pitched nervous voice.

305 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:48:38pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, having lived in a country (the U.S.) where we need rather fewer armed guards outside synagogues than they do in Europe, I'm gonna vote, yes, I think that.

I hope someday we don't need any guards outside of synagogues. I really, really, really want to see the day we don't need guards outside of day schools.

306 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:50:44pm

re: #305 EmmmieG

I hope someday we don't need any guards outside of synagogues. I really, really, really want to see the day we don't need guards outside of day schools.

I really, really hope we don't withdraw the guards because someone declares them politically incorrect and unsightly.

Let there be peace on earth. Until then, let free people keep their powder dry.

307 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:54:24pm

re: #304 Gus 802

Looked like Sheehan stuck that bullhorn into his face then he responded. I would say she threw the first blow. Then they surrounded him.

I'm curious. Why does is seem like all of these Code Pinkers have an affected voice. It's like this high pitched nervous voice.

Its the overwrought nature of the moonbats in general. They think they're out to save the world and they can't understand why anyone would oppose them with being either evil or a dupe. Case in point from the article:

Code Pink protester Xan Joy, who physically confronted the man during the incident, called the man a "bully" and said his behavior was meant to intimidate the protesters.

"He should be so happy and grateful that there are people in this country that are trying to protect him and his children and everybody's children from war," Joy said.

308 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:56:36pm

re: #304 Gus 802

I thought it was rich that they wanted to press charges against the veteran after placing the bullhorn in his face while trespassing on a military instillation after being told to leave by the gate guards.

309 Gus  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 8:59:56pm

re: #308 Idle Drifter

I thought it was rich that they wanted to press charges against the veteran after placing the bullhorn in his face while trespassing on a military instillation after being told to leave by the gate guards.

Big time. Seemed rather hypocritical on their part. Here they are pretending to talk about peace and there they were putting their war-face-paint on in a jiffy flapping their arms about. I thought the pacifist response was to kneel. Instead they took a defensive posture. Nothing new with the anti-war types.

310 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:01:31pm

re: #133 BaguaYou get an up-ding for promoting civility, dignity and respect (aka shalom bayit)

311 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:04:48pm

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

"He should be so happy and grateful that there are people in this country that are trying to protect him and his children and everybody's children from war," Joy said

Jesus ZZ Top Christ on a harley...we're all hopelessly naiive children that need to be protected from the military-industrial complex as far as they're concerned. We can't make any decisions on our own, and they know what's best for us- whether it's an incandescent light bulb or enlisting in the US Military.

Gosh golly gee...I wonder who these people voted for last year?/

312 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:05:07pm

re: #308 Idle Drifter

I thought it was rich that they wanted to press charges against the veteran after placing the bullhorn in his face while trespassing on a military instillation after being told to leave by the gate guards.

Again, It's their basic mentality: They think that their good intentions make them immune to the normal rules that apply to everyone else. They may talk altruistically, but most Code Pinkos are narcissists, and Sheehan is the worst of them.

313 nmdesertrat  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:07:30pm

re: #282 freetoken

One of the reasons I recommend that site is the amount of historical background Spencer included. Many people believe, I fear, that somehow AGW just dropped out of the sky with the appearance of Al Gore (or some suitable substitute well known figure.)
.
.
.
Regardless of how we deal with the human impact upon our world, or don't deal with as the case looks likely, there is no good reason to deny the reality of the history of the science or its current state.

Thanks, I've bookmarked that site.

Frankly, Charles et al, I can't confirm or deny a general commonality between AGW deniers and creationists, because as soon as I hit a creationist comment/site, the "idiot meter" pegs and I ignore the writings. (In Nuc School 30 years ago, I had a classmate who kept a baseball-card-sized depiction of Jesus at the wheel of an old sailing ship propped up on his desk. He also firmly believed that the earth was 4,000 years old, while at the same time learning about radioisotope decay.)

314 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:10:09pm

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

So they're telling a military veteran he should be happy and gratefull to live in a country where they are protecting him and his children? Ye gods.

315 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:11:42pm

re: #314 Kruk

So they're telling a military veteran he should be happy and gratefull to live in a country where they are protecting him and his children? Ye gods.

No need to thank them...
/

316 Idle Drifter  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:20:26pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

Again, It's their basic mentality: They think that their good intentions make them immune to the normal rules that apply to everyone else. They may talk altruistically, but most Code Pinkos are narcissists, and Sheehan is the worst of them.

Sheehan's bullhorn best demonstrates her contempt for opposing viewpoints and her need to dominate any exchange. They are quick to offend and even quicker to declare being victims.

317 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:25:57pm

re: #316 Idle Drifter

Sheehan's bullhorn best demonstrates her contempt for opposing viewpoints and her need to dominate any exchange. They are quick to offend and even quicker to declare being victims.

Agreed. She can't even contemplate the idea she might be wrong. To her, people like the veteran who confronted her are either victims (of the US government, of course, never the enemy) or villains ('baby-killers'). She was also emblodened because she knew he wouldn't hurt her, He could do so, easily, but he is an honorable man who would not do such a thing. Such men have kept Cindy Sheehan safe her whole life, but she has only contempt or condescension for them.

/spits

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:27:00pm

re: #208 Yanqui in Europe

We're not even allowed to import unpasteurized cheeses in the U.S.

I am almost tempted to upding you for that marvelously nonsequiterial statement.

319 Athens Runaway  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:27:44pm

re: #208 Yanqui in Europe

We're not even allowed to import unpasteurized cheeses in the U.S.

Nominating this for rotating quote.

320 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:29:07pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

You've been very polite and have presented your arguments well, imo. I'm not sure why you're getting jumped so badly tonight, but I'd buy you a welcome home beer.

I think he was downdinging Cato, and sort of entered the conversation on a tetchy note as a result.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:30:30pm

re: #290 Athens Runaway

Every time I hear of Rotterdam, I think of "Ender's Shadow."

I didn't get a positive impression of what the city's like from that book.

Every time I hear of Rotterdam I start singing "There's the highland Dutch, and the lowland Dutch..."

322 Sharmuta  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 9:33:57pm

re: #320 SanFranciscoZionist

To which Yanqui was quite polite.

323 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:19:08pm

re: #304 Gus 802

I'm curious. Why does is seem like all of these Code Pinkers have an affected voice. It's like this high pitched nervous voice.

American women in general often affect an annoying voice. There used to be elocution classes. Now everywoman sounds like a Valley Girl. High-pitched, nasal, and only one-and-a-half vowel sounds.

324 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:26:41pm

re: #323 Cato the Elder

Which goes well with Sheehan's one-and-a-half brain cells. Shoving a bullhorn in somebody's face and then being surprised when he gets irate.

She is a professional idiot.

325 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:36:36pm

Come to think of it, Cindy Sheehan herself would seem to qualify as an unmanned drone. She should ban herself for the good of innocent ears everywhere.

326 littleugly  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:05am

re: #323 Cato the Elder

American women in general often affect an annoying voice. There used to be elocution classes. Now everywoman sounds like a Valley Girl. High-pitched, nasal, and only one-and-a-half vowel sounds.

It does not take any effort for a man to understand any woman, American or foreign .
Your online voice is much more annoying than any woman that I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
You, Cato, are the one that needs a class in manners and humility.

327 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:51:48am

re: #233 Gus 802

Somehow, the idea of boiling it doesn't even make it more palatable.

True. I don't think anyone will become rich selling tasty Irradiated Turd Treats, no matter how sterile they are.

328 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:59:29am

re: #326 littleugly

It does not take any effort for a man to understand any woman, American or foreign .
Your online voice is much more annoying than any woman that I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
You, Cato, are the one that needs a class in manners and humility.

It's not a matter of understanding her. It's a matter of having to listen to her in the first place.

There are plenty of women without the buzzsaw voice I describe. I seek them out.

329 littleugly  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:40:22am

re: #328 Cato the Elder

Whatever Cato, I completely disagree.
Hope you own your company, work for some Union or are independently wealthy for I shudder to see what your reaction would be when a man confronts you.


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