Pamela Geller Shrieks on Joy Behar

Blogosphere • Views: 7,177

Pamela Geller’s appearance last night on the Joy Behar show with Ron Reagan and Stephanie Miller perfectly demonstrates why Geller has become known on the Internet as the “shrieking harpy.”

Geller actually seems to think she came off well on this show, in which she tells Ron Reagan what his own father would have thought about Sarah Palin, and rants continuously like a howler monkey on crack throughout the whole segment. Notice that it ends as Joy Behar tells Geller, “You have not shut up.”

Youtube Video

This obnoxious performance was a big hit on the wingnut blogs, of course.

Pamela Geller is a full-on, raving Birther. She tried to claim Barack Obama is the love child of Malcolm X, and she wasn’t kidding. She regularly uses terms like “libtard,” calls President Obama “Hussein,” and often compares him to Adolf Hitler. She promotes the neo-Nazi British National Party, and praises other fascist groups like the English Defense League and the Vlaams Belang. She doesn’t just criticize radical Islam; she’s a flat out, bigoted Muslim-hater who believes that every single Muslim is a terrorist by nature. And she has the personality of a treacherous rattlesnake.

If Joy Behar was trying to make the right wing blogosphere (and fans of Sarah Palin) look terrible, she couldn’t have picked a better person.

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547 comments
1 Baier  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:13:49am

Pamela Geller is wearing an entire cow.

2 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:14:05am

I hate Geller and Behar.

3 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:14:40am
If Joy Behar was trying to make the right wing blogosphere look terrible, she couldn’t have picked a better person.

And yet, they will use this interview to showcase their point of view, and it will be endlessly parroted across the right wing echosphere. And all because some idiot thinks she's a hottie. (For the record, I strongly disagree.)

4 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:15:51am
She regularly uses terms like “libtard,”

Teabaggers are like that.

5 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:16:09am

I remain shocked that no one has called her to task for making the ridiculous claim on Big Journalism that the Holocaust was actually the brainchild of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. She tries to make the case that the involvement of theNazis in the ME was the result of the Mufti's actions and not the historically correct nice versa.

Why would Geller try to take some of the heat off the fascists? What spread some of the blame off of them..perhaps tp sanitize european fascism?

I guess I'll do that tonight.

6 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:16:22am

good lord she is obnoxious

7 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:16:50am

re: #1 Baier

Pamela Geller is wearing an entire cow.

The sacrificial calf gave it's life for the needed revolution in the lower 48 states.

8 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:17:47am

re: #6 SpaceJesus

good lord she is obnoxious

She is the type you go to a bar with and end up getting your ass kicked by some guy.

9 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:18:53am

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

She is the type you go to a bar with and end up getting your ass kicked by some guy.


if you're seen in public anywhere with this lady, you deserve an ass kicking

10 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:20:20am

re: #5 Quilly Mammoth

I remain shocked that no one has called her to task for making the ridiculous claim on Big Journalism that the Holocaust was actually the brainchild of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. She tries to make the case that the involvement of theNazis in the ME was the result of the Mufti's actions and not the historically correct nice versa.

Why would Geller try to take some of the heat off the fascists? What spread some of the blame off of them..perhaps tp sanitize european fascism?

I guess I'll do that tonight.

The Haj was influential on Hitler.

11 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:20:43am

I cannot watch. I'm sorry...I just can't.

I'll go and get a dental filling instead.

Deal?

12 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:20:51am

Pam seems to think that she might get a regular gig on "The View." She is certainly obnoxious enough.

13 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:21:47am

re: #11 EmmmieG

I cannot watch. I'm sorry...I just can't.

I'll go and get a dental filling instead.

Deal?

OK. But no Novocaine.

14 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:21:49am

re: #8 Cannadian Club Akbar

She is the type you go to a bar with and end up getting your ass kicked by some guy.

She's the type that you go to a bar with, get your drinks, sit down, and thirty seconds after she opens her mouth you look at your watch and "remember" that you have something you really have to take care of that just can't wait.

15 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:21:53am

In that interview were the stupidest human beings on the planet.

16 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:22:02am

re: #6 SpaceJesus

Heh, I thought of you when I read JHKuntsler's latest essay. (Yes, I'll read Kuntsler as a guilty pleasure... his use of English is a delight even if as a doomer he does attract the moonbats and wingnuts to his site.) From his latest essay, on the Tea Party Convention:

Behind the incoherent cargo of conflicting complaints that makes up Tea Party doctrine -- like "keeping the government's hands off our medicare!" -- stands the more basic dissolution of the Sunbelt's miracle economy, along with the pain and bewilderment of the southern peckerwood political nexus that rose out of the dust after World War Two to build the suburban nirvana of universal air-conditioning, happy motoring, Jesus tub-thumping, over-eating, and Friday night football that defined Sunbelt culture.

They sense now that history is about to thrust them back into the okra patch, with the hookworms and the chiggers, as the economy whirls down the drain, and the car dealerships close up, and the idle production homebuilders succumb to methedrine addiction, and the price of Reba McEntire tickets exceeds their dwindling resources, and they are none too happy about any of that.

Stereotyping... with style.

17 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:22:20am

re: #10 MandyManners

Very much so, but I'm not convinced to the level she is insinuating.

18 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:22:59am

re: #4 Ben Hur

Teabaggers are like that.

The term "teabaggers" was started by the tea partiers themselves.

19 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:23:13am

re: #14 Girth

She's the type that you go to a bar with, get your drinks, sit down, and thirty seconds after she opens her mouth you look at your watch and "remember" that you have something you really have to take care of that just can't wait.

Or having our friends give us what we would call a "strategic phone call."

20 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:23:40am
21 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:24:26am

re: #10 MandyManners

The Haj was influential on Hitler.

Compared to everything else that was an influence on Hitler, the Mufti of Jerusalem's influence was tiny. And claiming that Hitler got the idea for the Holocaust from him is total fantasy.

22 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:24:33am

re: #16 freetoken


haha, "southern peckerwood political nexus"

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:24:50am

re: #20 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks! Now I can use all those brain cells I saved by not watching.

24 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:25:36am

re: #18 Charles

The term "teabaggers" was started by the tea partiers themselves.

Ah.

I guess that changes things.

25 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:25:39am

Quitting is not quitting?

I stopped the video right after she said that Palin came to lead the next American revolution. Sorry, Gellar. The spin on that left me nauseous.

26 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:25:53am

re: #10 MandyManners

The title of the article is "The Mufti of Jerusalem: Architect of the Holocaust". There's no doubt that Hitler enjoyed having his ideas regurgitated back to him. But the Mufti wasn't even on the radar screen when the first camps were set up.

Unless I'm missing something.........

27 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:26:06am

re: #17 Ben Hur

Very much so, but I'm not convinced to the level she is insinuating.

Neither am I.

28 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:26:49am

re: #21 Charles

Compared to everything else that was an influence on Hitler, the Mufti of Jerusalem's influence was tiny. And claiming that Hitler got the idea for the Holocaust from him is total fantasy.

Yeah, Hitler would've killed Jews without ever meeting Haj Amin al-Husseini.

29 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:27:43am

re: #26 Quilly Mammoth

The title of the article is "The Mufti of Jerusalem: Architect of the Holocaust". There's no doubt that Hitler enjoyed having his ideas regurgitated back to him. But the Mufti wasn't even on the radar screen when the first camps were set up.

Unless I'm missing something...

I don't think you are.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:28:12am

I'm "Miracle Max" right now.

(*hands to ears) "I'm not listening!"

31 alexknyc  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:28:21am

I'm pretty sure making detainees watch Pam Geller shriek would violate the Geneva Convention.

32 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:28:27am

re: #24 Ben Hur

Ah.

I guess that changes things.

Certainly gives it context.

33 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:28:45am

re: #26 Quilly Mammoth

The title of the article is "The Mufti of Jerusalem: Architect of the Holocaust". There's no doubt that Hitler enjoyed having his ideas regurgitated back to him. But the Mufti wasn't even on the radar screen when the first camps were set up.

Unless I'm missing something...

Hitler thought it might be easier to send most of the Jews to Palestine instead of killing them all.

34 Silvergirl  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:28:52am

"Do you think you're making your father proud?"

The lowest.

35 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:29:34am

re: #33 Alouette

Hitler thought it might be easier to send most of the Jews to Palestine instead of killing them all.

It might have been easier, but not what he really wanted.

36 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:29:39am

re: #26 Quilly Mammoth

The title of the article is "The Mufti of Jerusalem: Architect of the Holocaust". There's no doubt that Hitler enjoyed having his ideas regurgitated back to him. But the Mufti wasn't even on the radar screen when the first camps were set up.

Unless I'm missing something...

It's a ludicrous fantasy, of course. It's obviously motivated by Geller's bigotry against Muslims.

37 Spider Mensch  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:30:00am

Pam likes money. unfortunately for the right, she knows being wingnutty in todays political atmosphere = more hits and readers, tv and radio spots = $$$$. never kid yourself about pam gellers true love, Money!

38 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:31:44am

re: #33 Alouette

Hitler thought it might be easier to send most of the Jews to Palestine instead of killing them all.

Yes, the Mufti pleaded for 400,000 Jews to be killed rather then sent from Hungary and surrounding nations to Palestine. He was obliged. And that makes him a criminal...but not the Architect.

39 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:32:42am

re: #4 Ben Hur

Teabaggers are like that.

I'm looking for my "I see what you did there" pic.

40 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:33:17am

re: #32 Charles

Certainly gives it context.

The only thing I'm seeing at Wiki is this:

The label "teabagging" has been applied to Tea Party protests in general,[15] and to the specific protest gesture of mailing a tea bag to the White House.[16][17] The label has prompted puns based on pre-existing use of the word to denote oral–scrotal contact as a sex act or prank. This labeling has been deplored by Tea Party activists as insulting, dismissive, and elitist.[15] In a 14 March report on Fox News, Griff Jenkins said, "ReTeaParty.com has a headline, 'Teabag the fools in DC on Tax Day.' They want you ... to take a tea bag, put it an envelope, and mail it to the White House."[17]

The double meaning of the phrase drew criticism and mockery from MSNBC's David Shuster who on April 13, accused the protesters of "going nuts for it" and "whip[ping] out the festivities"; wanting to "give President Obama a strong tongue-lashing and lick government spending." He argued that "the people who came up with it are a familiar circle of Republicans including former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, both of whom have firm support from right wing financiers and lobbyists." and that "the Fox News Channel, including Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity, both are looking forward to an up close and personal taste of teabagging themselves." He concluded, saying that "If you are planning simultaneous teabagging all around the country, you're going to need a Dick Armey."[18] On April 13,[19] 14,[20] and 15,[21] MSNBC's Rachel Maddow made similar remarks. On April 14[22] and 15,[23] MSNBC's Keith Olbermann made remarks in the same vein, and on April 15, CNN's Anderson Cooper said "It's hard to talk when you're teabagging."[24][25]

On the April 16 edition of The Daily Show, Jon Stewart observed, "So, in our new world order, Fox are the hippies [for promoting anti-government protests] and CNN is The Man. What does that make MSNBC?" He then played a montage of clips of MSNBC anchors using the "teabagging" terminology and concluded, "Hours of scrotum-based humor. Oh my God! MSNBC is us! They're The Daily Show! Well what the fuck am I supposed to do?"[26]

Is that what you meant?

All this time they meant actual tea-bags?

41 okonkolo  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:33:18am

Truthfully, if i see the names Geller and Behar and the video chronometer at the ten minute mark, I gotta take a pass.

42 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:33:43am
If Joy Behar was trying to make the right wing blogosphere look terrible, she couldn’t have picked a better person.

I think that's the exact reason they had her on. Pam is too stupid to know they are laughing at her. They put her on as a joke to make Palin fans look dumb and crazy. Sadly, Pam think she's did a great job.

43 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:34:49am

"She didn't quit, she heard the call of the lower 48..."

Heehehehe

44 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:35:16am

re: #36 Charles

It's a ludicrous fantasy, of course. It's obviously motivated by Geller's bigotry against Muslims.

And pretty much puts paid to Breitbart's claim of bringing back "real journalism"...or however he phrased it.

45 ssn697  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:35:47am

I don't know what is scarier: that woman or the list of right wing blogs who think that was an outstanding performance.

46 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:37:58am

re: #34 Silvergirl

"Do you think you're making your father proud?"

The lowest.

It's the you-don't-share-your-father's-political-views-so-you're-a-bad-son argument.

It's vile.

47 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:38:17am

re: #5 Quilly Mammoth

the Holocaust was actually the brainchild of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

That is not SOOO crazy. The Mufti did pour gasoline on the fire pretty early. Maybe not brainchild, but he certainly had an effect that history ignored.

The mufti and the holocaust.(Der Mufti von Jerusalem und die Nationalsozialisten)- Rosenthal, John

It is ok to disagree on this, but no one knows for sure how much of an influence he had.

48 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:38:30am

re: #45 ssn697

I don't know what is scarier: that woman or the list of right wing blogs who think that was an outstanding performance.

This is scary

49 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:39:43am

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I think that's the exact reason they had her on. Pam is too stupid to know they are laughing at her. They put her on as a joke to make Palin fans look dumb and crazy. Sadly, Pam think she's did a great job.

Every time Breitbart's mug is on TV he thinks he did well too. Everyone else who isn't a kook just thinks he's an a-hole who wont answer questions or shut up. There is no one sane on the right with the influence to pull these clowns off stage with a big hook.

I can't even bring myself to watch the Shrieking Harpy's circus.

50 Slap  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:40:14am

re: #48 cliffster

Wow -- how'd they get that photo of Geller's brain?

51 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:42:19am

re: #43 wrenchwench

"She didn't quit, she heard the call of the lower 48..."


Jebus.
If they found out that Palin was eating puppies for breakfast and kicking babies in the afternoon these folks would STILL think she was the most awesome woman every born and the Queen Esther who will lead us out of the liberal wilderness that has taken over our country in the last year.
And they would have an excuse why it was not eating puppies and kicking puppies the same way Palin has the nerve to say it is OK to use the word retard when Rush says it "satire".
I hope she enjoyed the way Colbert used the word last night...

52 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:42:54am

re: #46 Girth

It's the you-don't-share-your-father's-political-views-so-y ou're-a-bad-son argument.

It's vile.

I'm not a big fan of Ron Reagan. But I'd never say that shit to him

53 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:43:23am

re: #49 ArchangelMichael

Every time Breitbart's mug is on TV he thinks he did well too. Everyone else who isn't a kook just thinks he's an a-hole who wont answer questions or shut up. There is no one sane on the right with the influence to pull these clowns off stage with a big hook.

I can't even bring myself to watch the Shrieking Harpy's circus.

They're in full-on echo chamber mode. Anyone who tried to use the big hook would be gang tackled.

54 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:43:33am

I watched it. I can't believe I sat through that. She was claiming things were the result of things that made no sense. Sarah Palin didn't quit, she heard the call of the lower 48.

I finally realized what logical fallacy she fell into there:

Post crock, ergo propter crock.

55 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:44:41am

re: #47 Buck

The idea that German antisemitism was imported from the Islamic world simply ignores the long, long history of antisemitism in Europe and the Germanic region in particular. Europe didn't need to "import" antisemitism from anywhere, it was part of the social fabric for MANY centuries.

Please don't start this here. It's beyond silly.

56 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:44:43am

re: #51 webevintage

I hope she enjoyed the way Colbert used the word last night...

Got a link?

57 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:45:00am

As to the clip of the show, the only one that came off looking half-way sane and reasonable was Joy Behar. Which says how atrocious the whole thing was.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:45:14am

re: #5 Quilly Mammoth

I remain shocked that no one has called her to task for making the ridiculous claim on Big Journalism that the Holocaust was actually the brainchild of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. She tries to make the case that the involvement of theNazis in the ME was the result of the Mufti's actions and not the historically correct nice versa.

Why would Geller try to take some of the heat off the fascists? What spread some of the blame off of them..perhaps tp sanitize european fascism?

I guess I'll do that tonight.

For real? My God, that's stupid.

59 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:45:22am

re: #52 cliffster

I'm not a big fan of Ron Reagan. But I'd never say that shit to him

Same here. That kind of crap is really a low blow.

60 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:46:06am

re: #51 webevintage

Jebus.
If they found out that Palin was eating puppies for breakfast and kicking babies in the afternoon these folks would STILL think she was the most awesome woman every born and the Queen Esther who will lead us out of the liberal wilderness that has taken over our country in the last year.
And they would have an excuse why it was not eating puppies and kicking puppies the same way Palin has the nerve to say it is OK to use the word retard when Rush says it "satire".
I hope she enjoyed the way Colbert used the word last night...

Puppies are more of a brunch food. Kittens, OTOH, make a great bacon and are perfect for breakfast food. MMmmmm, kitty bacon.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:46:10am

re: #10 MandyManners

The Haj was influential on Hitler.

Not to a causative degree. If you're going to argue that, you need some damn big guns with you.

62 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:46:34am

This is a step into the future for our country:
"Gay military rights advocate Lt. Dan Choi has been reportedly called back into active duty. "

[Link: www.advocate.com...]

I hope this is true and not just a rumor.
I bet McCain is gonna be pissed no one asked his permission first.

63 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:47:08am

re: #56 wrenchwench

Got a link?

64 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:47:29am

re: #60 RogueOne

Puppies are more of a brunch food. Kittens, OTOH, make a great bacon and are perfect for breakfast food. MMmmm, kitty bacon.

No, no, no you have it all wrong. Kittehs _wrapped_ in bacon!

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:47:59am

re: #31 alexknyc

I'm pretty sure making detainees watch Pam Geller shriek would violate the Geneva Convention.

Depends. Do they speak English? If they don't, it might just be taken for a comedy program.

66 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:48:00am

I never knew who Joy Behar was until this moment. I want my thirty seconds back.

67 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:49:12am

re: #64 Quilly Mammoth

No, no, no you have it all wrong. Kittehs _wrapped_ in bacon!

That could never happen

68 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:49:24am

re: #59 ArchangelMichael

Same here. That kind of crap is really a low blow.

And he gets it all the time. Those that "know" his father, and his father's wishes.

Let the dead rest.

69 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:50:12am

re: #67 darthstar

That could never happen

Shave the cat first.

70 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:50:20am
71 blueherron  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:50:26am

re: #66 darthstar

I never knew who Joy Behar was until this moment. I want my thirty seconds back.

I'd never seen Geller before. She looked and sounded like the mother of someone from Jersey Shore.

72 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:50:57am

re: #63 webevintage

[Link: www.colbertnation.com...]

I'm guessing she's so enamored with herself that she watches Colbert and Stewart regularly to see if they mention her.

73 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:51:33am

re: #55 Charles

The idea that German antisemitism was imported from the Islamic world simply ignores the long, long history of antisemitism in Europe and the Germanic region in particular. Europe didn't need to "import" antisemitism from anywhere, it was part of the social fabric for MANY centuries.

Please don't start this here. It's beyond silly.

I didn't say that they imported antisemitism from the muslim world.
Please don't judge me that harshly. It is not so simple a concept.

There are historians who say that the Mufti had an influence on "the final solution". An influence that should not have allowed him to die a natural death in freedom. I linked to a review of a perfectly fine book that makes the case.

However, if this is a completely forbidden discussion, I will respect that.

74 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:52:30am

re: #71 blueherron

Jersey Shore is a TV show, right? Haven't seen it, but I just figured out a few days ago that it wasn't just a slur on people from New Jersey, but a show that was being referenced.

75 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:53:58am

I hope we see more and more crazy like Geller and Breitbart on mainstream TV (not sure where you can see Joy's show) with people who will push back and call them on their crazy & hate.
Every time they do that they hurt the Tea Party movement which is fine with me if Palin is their idea of a standard bearer.

76 Ericus58  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:54:16am

Huh, the lurking dinger does speak....

77 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:54:18am

re: #57 Quilly Mammoth

As to the clip of the show, the only one that came off looking half-way sane and reasonable was Joy Behar. Which says how atrocious the whole thing was.

I thought Stephanie Miller's minimalist role was the perfect offset to Geller's wackiness, especially just before 6 minutes in when she says, "Because she's [Palin] a big fat hypocrite, that's why." and then she leans over to Geller for her reaction. Classic.

78 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:54:24am

re: #11 EmmmieG

I cannot watch. I'm sorry...I just can't.

I'll go and get a dental filling instead.

Deal?

If you forego the novocaine, it'll balance out.

79 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:54:36am

re: #63 webevintage

Thanks!

80 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:57:07am

Speaking of disgraceful asshattery: in the UK....
[Link: www.comcast.net...]

81 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:57:38am

re: #73 Buck

I didn't say that they imported antisemitism from the muslim world.
Please don't judge me that harshly. It is not so simple a concept.

There are historians who say that the Mufti had an influence on "the final solution". An influence that should not have allowed him to die a natural death in freedom. I linked to a review of a perfectly fine book that makes the case.

However, if this is a completely forbidden discussion, I will respect that.

The discussion is not forbidden at all, but many here won't accept the Mufti as much more than a side show.

82 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:57:52am

re: #71 blueherron

I'd never seen Geller before. She looked and sounded like the mother of someone from Jersey Shore.

like amped up My Cousin Vinny, only not.. at.. all.. funny

83 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:01:04am

re: #18 Charles

The term "teabaggers" was started by the tea partiers themselves.

I don't think I realized that before. Or maybe I did, but I forgot. It all starts to run together eventually.

One thing you can say about the teabaggers. They sure have some balls! lol

84 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:02:08am

re: #73 Buck

I didn't say that they imported antisemitism from the muslim world.
Please don't judge me that harshly. It is not so simple a concept.

There are historians who say that the Mufti had an influence on "the final solution". An influence that should not have allowed him to die a natural death in freedom. I linked to a review of a perfectly fine book that makes the case.

Hitler and the Mufti may have been of like minds about their perceived "Jewish problem" and its "final solution", but Hitler was doing bad all by himself long before he and the Mufti got together. To say otherwise is to minimize Hitler's role in its planning and execution.

However, if this is a completely forbidden discussion, I will respect that.

Now you're just being an ass...I can just hear you now:

"Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

85 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:02:15am

re: #76 Ericus58

Huh, the lurking dinger does speak...

Who dat?

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:02:36am

re: #36 Charles

It's a ludicrous fantasy, of course. It's obviously motivated by Geller's bigotry against Muslims.

There's a lot of revisionist history going around, as people paint Muslim history in darker and more lurid colors, and clean up the West's record in regard to Jews and Muslims and theocracy.

I get irritable. I was a history major, once upon a time.

87 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:03:56am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a lot of revisionist history going around, as people paint Muslim history in darker and more lurid colors, and clean up the West's record in regard to Jews and Muslims and theocracy.

I get irritable. I was a history major, once upon a time.

With the current rampant anti-semitism in the Middle East it is easy to fall into that trap.

88 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:04:18am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a lot of revisionist history going around, as people paint Muslim history in darker and more lurid colors, and clean up the West's record in regard to Jews and Muslims and theocracy.

I get irritable. I was a history major, once upon a time.

Ha. Much of what you study as History, I remember as Current Events.

89 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:05:19am

re: #52 cliffster

I'm not a big fan of Ron Reagan. But I'd never say that shit to him

Geller has a history of crossing the borders of decency. That's not even the worst case. Pushing her crazy self into the Rifqa Bary custody case is worse, and so was her plan to put a headstone on a Muslim girl's grave against the family's wishes.

90 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:05:23am

re: #87 rwdflynavy

Nice new avatar.

91 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:06:12am

re: #21 Charles

Compared to everything else that was an influence on Hitler, the Mufti of Jerusalem's influence was tiny. And claiming that Hitler got the idea for the Holocaust from him is total fantasy.

Certainly the Mufti of Jerusalem was just a flunky of Hitler (I believe Hitler had to get a medical opinion that the Mufti was "Aryan" enough in features to let him associate with him), but the Muslims invented anti semitism long before the Nazis were invented.

92 Ericus58  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:06:36am

re: #85 MandyManners

Who dat?

The one with two rr's....
many are the downdings with no reasoned response....

93 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:06:40am

re: #74 darthstar

All you need to know can be summed up in one word: Snooki.
There simply are no (other) words.
That producers found someone to make the show, and that they actually found an audience for it, is not something that should make us proud.
[Link: www.mtv.com...]

94 ShaunP  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:06:59am

Bouncing around and found this picture, so I had to share...

Image: pamela_gellar1.jpg

**shudders**

95 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:07:27am

re: #84 talon_262

Now you're just being an ass...I can just hear you now:

"Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

Did you even read the link of the book review? It places the Mufti in much earlier and much more influential.

It does not excuse Hitler anymore than discussing Himmler's role.

96 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:07:51am

Let's not underestimate Husseini's role.

[Link: emperors-clothes.com...]

[Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

[Link: www.bankingonbaghdad.com...]

[Link: www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com...]

97 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:08:11am

"You never met him either..."

Wow....

Damn it Ronald this is your chance, I like that you're democrat and all, but come its right on your plate say it...

"I knew Ronald Regan (and so on and so forth)..... Sarah Palin is no Ronald Regan...."

98 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:09:42am

Wait, wait, wait, wait, WAIT!

"Unlike the left we don't walk in lock step!"

How can anyone, ANYONE with a straight face claim that the left walks in lock step after watching us try to pass healthcare?

99 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:10:08am

re: #97 jamesfirecat

That would have required wit, or even brains. The sharpest knife in the drawer of that interview was, well, in a different drawer.

100 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:10:20am

re: #91 Naso Tang

Certainly the Mufti of Jerusalem was just a flunky of Hitler (I believe Hitler had to get a medical opinion that the Mufti was "Aryan" enough in features to let him associate with him), but the Muslims invented anti semitism long before the Nazis were invented.

The only countries that have not been guilty of antisemitism in part or in whole are those that have had no association with Jews. (China, for example, which historically had an anti-everyone else bias, but didn't specifically target Jews.)

Personal opinion--jealousy. You have some wandering, landless people, not in power, kept held back by numerous laws, and they still manage to succeed. That just isn't "fair."*

*fair here, being the teenager's fair, which means everything goes my way regardless of my behavior

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:10:42am

re: #47 Buck

That is not SOOO crazy. The Mufti did pour gasoline on the fire pretty early. Maybe not brainchild, but he certainly had an effect that history ignored.

The mufti and the holocaust.(Der Mufti von Jerusalem und die Nationalsozialisten)- Rosenthal, John

It is ok to disagree on this, but no one knows for sure how much of an influence he had.

No, it's crazy. Or, at least far enough afield that you need a very strong, well-documented argument to support it.

102 Lidane  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:10:53am

re: #63 webevintage

[Link: www.colbertnation.com...]

Heh. That just made my day. I love Colbert. :D

103 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:11:06am

re: #98 jamesfirecat

Wait, wait, wait, wait, WAIT!

"Unlike the left we don't walk in lock step!"

How can anyone, ANYONE with a straight face claim that the left walks in lock step after watching us try to pass healthcare?

Sometimes we are in the same parade...

104 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:11:22am

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's crazy. Or, at least far enough afield that you need a very strong, well-documented argument to support it.

Did you read the link? Or the Book?

105 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:11:50am

What's the name of the high-ranking Nazi who converted to Islam and escaped to Egypt?

106 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:11:51am

re: #94 ShaunP

It must be the T-shirt, because I've actually never seen her look that good in a photo...
Usually they're pretty scary.

107 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:13:38am

re: #105 MandyManners

What's the name of the high-ranking Nazi who converted to Islam and escaped to Egypt?

This?

[Link: www.google.com...]

108 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:13:53am

"You're making fun of your mother and your father."


Pam, my mom does IT tech support for a public high school, and my dad is a research chemist for the FDA. So I think in this case it might be more accurate to say "You're making fun of them WITH your mother and your father."

109 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:13:54am

re: #91 Naso Tang

Certainly the Mufti of Jerusalem was just a flunky of Hitler (I believe Hitler had to get a medical opinion that the Mufti was "Aryan" enough in features to let him associate with him), but the Muslims invented anti semitism long before the Nazis were invented.

Muslims did not "invent" Jew hate. It existed long before Mohammed was born.

The very first anti-Semite in history was Pharoah.

110 Lidane  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:14:11am

re: #98 jamesfirecat

How can anyone, ANYONE with a straight face claim that the left walks in lock step after watching us try to pass healthcare?

"I am not a member of any organized party — I am a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:14:15am

re: #73 Buck

I didn't say that they imported antisemitism from the muslim world.
Please don't judge me that harshly. It is not so simple a concept.

There are historians who say that the Mufti had an influence on "the final solution". An influence that should not have allowed him to die a natural death in freedom. I linked to a review of a perfectly fine book that makes the case.

However, if this is a completely forbidden discussion, I will respect that.

It's not a forbidden topic, but it seems that Geller is making claims that are both silly and politically motivated.

112 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:14:23am

re: #107 Decatur Deb

This?

[Link: www.google.com...]

I believe so. Thanks.

113 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:14:24am

re: #100 EmmmieG

Fair enough, but China is actually many people with many languages and cultures and always has been, including Muslim. Lumping them all together in this context is probably not very meaningful.

114 JRCMYP  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:14:52am

re: #55 Charles

The idea that German antisemitism was imported from the Islamic world simply ignores the long, long history of antisemitism in Europe and the Germanic region in particular. Europe didn't need to "import" antisemitism from anywhere, it was part of the social fabric for MANY centuries.

Please don't start this here. It's beyond silly.

You are absolutely correct Charles. For example, the yellow star that Jews were forced to wear during Nazi Germany had its origin in early 13th century Europe. The Council of Lateran decreed that Jews (and Muslims and other socially marginalized groups) were required to wear identifying "badges." Jews had to wear a yellow star. This is just a small example of a long and complicated history of Jews in Europe. Anti-semitism was hardly a 20th century notion imported from the Middle East. Its origins are rooted in the Catholic Church.

115 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:15:43am

re: #93 tradewind

All you need to know can be summed up in one word: Snooki.
There simply are no (other) words.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I know who this person is.
Though only because of The Soup and Jezebel.

I get why Project Runway or Top Chef are interesting and why someone would want to do them, but I just do not get the appeal of pretty much any other reality shows (maybe the Ghost Hunter types, but that is more for the unintentional comedy they provide) and why someone would want to expose themselves and their families to so much invasion and derision. I find most of those shows just uncomfortable to even watch.

I mean how horrible is Wife Swap? I watched once and just felt so bad for the kids of both families and never watched again.

116 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:15:43am

"The first moral government in the history of man."

Wow... really?

So the Greeks who came up with the idea of democracy to start with don't count?

Maybe it was because they weren't Christian, weren't even Judeo-Christian, weren't even Monotheistic....

117 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:16:52am

Wow your average "Post Modern Woman" can afford to look after five kids including one with special needs?

118 firstinla  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:17:19am

I won't, in a million years, believe that such shows are meant to be educational, or even informative. Joy Behar and her three guests are entertainers. This is what passes for entertainment in our current culture. Limbaugh is an entertainer; Beck is an entertainer. Sarah Palin wasn't called to lead the new American revolution. Rather, she accepted the call to lead the continuing American devolution. Just mho.

119 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:18:02am

re: #117 jamesfirecat

You obviously have a very strong stomach.

120 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:18:09am

re: #91 Naso Tang

Certainly the Mufti of Jerusalem was just a flunky of Hitler (I believe Hitler had to get a medical opinion that the Mufti was "Aryan" enough in features to let him associate with him), but the Muslims invented anti semitism long before the Nazis were invented.

Well... kinda sorta. The Muslims in their countries during the dark ages were a lot better to their Jews than the Christians were. You could pay a tax and live in a Muslim nation, pretty much as a Jew. Not so with the Christians.

The Mufti and Hitler may have been BFFs, but Hitler had a lot of those. The connection has meaning, but Geller blows it out proportion to say the Holocaust was the Mufti's idea.

121 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:18:19am

re: #117 jamesfirecat

Wow your average "Post Modern Woman" can afford to look after five kids including one with special needs?

They can when the older daughters do most of the actual care.

122 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:19:12am

re: #119 cliffster

You obviously have a very strong stomach.

If you MST3K it pausing to make posts hear every time you hear something out and out crazy it isn't so bad.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:19:33am

re: #74 darthstar

Jersey Shore is a TV show, right? Haven't seen it, but I just figured out a few days ago that it wasn't just a slur on people from New Jersey, but a show that was being referenced.

It appears, from my People magazine reading, that it's a reality show featuring a bunch of young people from New Jersey and New York renting a house together on the shore.

124 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:19:45am

re: #115 webevintage

I've never watched Jersey Shore or Wife Swap, but I feel violated just reading about 'em.
Okay, Top Chef.... I've seen it and even enjoyed some of it, and if you were interested in fashion design, I can understand the Project Runway thing. But most of those ' reality shows' are just cop-outs created during the writers' strike that never left, when the networks realized how much cheaper they were.

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:20:58am

re: #87 rwdflynavy

With the current rampant anti-semitism in the Middle East it is easy to fall into that trap.

It is, but it's a bad idea in ever so many ways!

126 Baier  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:21:00am

re: #116 jamesfirecat

"The first moral government in the history of man."

Wow... really?

So the Greeks who came up with the idea of democracy to start with don't count?

Maybe it was because they weren't Christian, weren't even Judeo-Christian, weren't even Monotheistic...

in ancient Greece most of the people were slaves and few in population actually voted.
I didn't realize one could consider that "moral".

127 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:21:13am

re: #124 tradewind

It started with Survivor and IIRC, the writers strike came afterwards. The studios said Fuck "Em.

128 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:21:30am

re: #114 JRCMYP

You are absolutely correct Charles. For example, the yellow star that Jews were forced to wear during Nazi Germany had its origin in early 13th century Europe. The Council of Lateran decreed that Jews (and Muslims and other socially marginalized groups) were required to wear identifying "badges." Jews had to wear a yellow star. This is just a small example of a long and complicated history of Jews in Europe. Anti-semitism was hardly a 20th century notion imported from the Middle East. Its origins are rooted in the Catholic Church.

Nope. Persians (Haman), Greeks (Antiochus) and Romans (Biggus Dickus) were all ferocious Jew haters.

129 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:21:45am

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

It appears, from my People magazine reading, that it's a reality show featuring a bunch of young people from New Jersey and New York renting a house together on the shore.

From what I understand the fans are now voting where they will do the next season.
Detroit and The Congo seem to be the top places to send them.

(Yes, I DO know too much about a TV show I never watch.)

130 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:22:29am

re: #115 webevintage

I mean how horrible is Wife Swap?

...
Pretty damn awful, particularly if you ask Balloon Boy.//

131 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:22:29am

re: #120 marjoriemoon

I don't disagree with whose "idea" it was, but I object to the suggestion that being a second class citizen without the rights of a citizen was "better" than something else.

132 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:22:57am

re: #113 Naso Tang

Fair enough, but China is actually many people with many languages and cultures and always has been, including Muslim. Lumping them all together in this context is probably not very meaningful.

You are correct. I was just generally tossing off a reference to the Han.

Prejudice against outsiders is pretty universal.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:23:12am

re: #88 Decatur Deb

Ha. Much of what you study as History, I remember as Current Events.

I focused on early modern Europe, so unless you're five hundred years old...

134 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:23:48am

re: #120 marjoriemoon

Well... kinda sorta. The Muslims in their countries during the dark ages were a lot better to their Jews than the Christians were. You could pay a tax and live in a Muslim nation, pretty much as a Jew. Not so with the Christians.

The Mufti and Hitler may have been BFFs, but Hitler had a lot of those. The connection has meaning, but Geller blows it out proportion to say the Holocaust was the Mufti's idea.

I am sure the "Final Solution" was Hitler's own idea, but he might have had doubts that he would actually be able to pull it off. The Mufti and other lickspittle ass-kissers convinced him to go for it.

135 keloyd  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:23:55am

re: #100 EmmmieG

... antisemitism ...China...anti-everyone else bias, but didn't specifically target Jews...

In Southeast Asia, the Chinese are the "Jews," by loose analogy. In places like Malaysia or Indonesia, the Chinese are a small ethnic minority who live in the big cities and are comparatively educated, wealthy, over-represented in the white collar professions, and resented by the public. Politicians get more popular by passing laws limiting their kids' places in schools, forcing them to take local surnames, etc. It's just human nature, when you have a minority who is ethnically differnet and

136 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:24:18am

re: #122 jamesfirecat

If you MST3K it pausing to make posts hear every time you hear something out and out crazy it isn't so bad.

That's pretty good. Instead of MST3K, it's more fun to autotune it. Someone autotune Pam Geller, pls

137 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:24:19am

re: #124 tradewind

I've never watched Jersey Shore or Wife Swap, but I feel violated just reading about 'em.
Okay, Top Chef... I've seen it and even enjoyed some of it, and if you were interested in fashion design, I can understand the Project Runway thing. But most of those ' reality shows' are just cop-outs created during the writers' strike that never left, when the networks realized how much cheaper they were.

I despise most reality shows, but some of the cable ones are good, like Ice Road Truckers, Deadliest Catch, Ax Men and so on.

I'll never forget the look on my gay friend's face when I told him that I watched a couple of seasons of Project Runway religiously. I'm not interested at all in fashion design, it was just a well done, interesting show.

138 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:24:28am

re: #129 webevintage

No need to watch the stuff, you can learn all you need to know by a quick glance at People or E online.
It's not unlike a Rosetta Stone course, for when you're traveling in a different culture..... it helps to speak the language.

139 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:24:30am

re: #135 keloyd

In Southeast Asia, the Chinese are the "Jews," by loose analogy. In places like Malaysia or Indonesia, the Chinese are a small ethnic minority who live in the big cities and are comparatively educated, wealthy, over-represented in the white collar professions, and resented by the public. Politicians get more popular by passing laws limiting their kids' places in schools, forcing them to take local surnames, etc. It's just human nature, when you have a minority who is ethnically differnet and

Except, the Chinese have always had China.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:24:31am

re: #91 Naso Tang

Certainly the Mufti of Jerusalem was just a flunky of Hitler (I believe Hitler had to get a medical opinion that the Mufti was "Aryan" enough in features to let him associate with him), but the Muslims invented anti semitism long before the Nazis were invented.

The Germans were anti-Semites long before the Nazis as well.

141 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:24:40am

re: #128 Alouette

Nope. Persians (Haman), Greeks (Antiochus) and Romans (Biggus Dickus) were all ferocious Jew haters.

I'd back off the Romans a bit--they didn't treat the Jews much differently than any other rebellion-prone province.

142 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:25:03am

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not a forbidden topic, but it seems that Geller is making claims that are both silly and politically motivated.

Even if all of her OTHER claims are about space aliens creating the birth certificate... it should not mean that every thing she might say is wrong.

This is really not as crazy a theory as all of you seem to make it out to be. If I say that Himmler had a really big influence on the final solution, am I making excuses for Hitler? Am I revising history?

The book (and it is not the only one) makes a good case. I admit the reaction of this crowd to is surprises me. Maybe it is just because they heard it from Geller first. However it is NOT her theory.

143 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:26:01am

re: #141 Decatur Deb

I'd back off the Romans a bit--they didn't treat the Jews much differently than any other rebellion-prone province.

Just to point out that the Catholic Church did not invent anti-Semitism. But who invented the Catholic Church? Oh yeah, the Romans.

144 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:26:24am

In his speeches, most especially the one at Columbia University, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad repeats two myths about the Holocaust. The first every reasonable person knows is a total lie: namely that the Holocaust did not occur. The second myth, however, is one that escapes critical attention for the most part, because many people are not aware of its falsity. The myth is that the Palestinian people and their leadership had absolutely nothing to do with the Holocaust. The conclusion that is supposed to follow from this "fact" is that the establishment of Israel in the wake of the Nazi genocide of the Jewish people was unfair to the Palestinians. This is the way Ahmadinejad put it in his Columbia talk:

"...[G]iven this historical event [the Holocaust], if it is a reality, we need to question whether the Palestinian people should be paying for it... The Palestinian people didn't commit any crime. They had no role to play in World War II."

These statements about the role of the Palestinians are demonstrably false. The truth is that the Palestinian leadership, supported by the Palestinian masses, played a significant role in Hitler's Holocaust. The Palestinian leader at the time was Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, the Grand Mufit of Jerusalem. As Professor Edward Said has acknowledged:

"Hajj Amin al-Husseini represented the Palestinian Arab national consensus, had the backing of the Palestinian political parties that functioned in Palestine, and was recognized in some form by Arab governments as the voice of the Palestinian people."

Husseini was "Palestine's national leader" and it was in that capacity that he made his notorious alliance with Hitler and played an active role in promoting the Holocaust. Here is the true story that Ahmadinejad tried to mythologize.

Shortly after Hitler came to power, the Grand Mufti decided to emulate him. He informed the German consul in Jerusalem that "the Muslims inside and outside Palestine welcome the new regime of Germany and hope for the extension of the fascist anti-democratic, governmental system to other countries." In an effort to bring it to his own country, Husseini organized the "Nazi Scouts," based on the "Hitler Youth." The swastika became a welcome symbol among many Palestinians.

SNIP

145 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:26:50am

re: #115 webevintage

I'm embarrassed to admit that I know who this person is.
Though only because of The Soup and Jezebel.

I get why Project Runway or Top Chef are interesting and why someone would want to do them, but I just do not get the appeal of pretty much any other reality shows (maybe the Ghost Hunter types, but that is more for the unintentional comedy they provide) and why someone would want to expose themselves and their families to so much invasion and derision. I find most of those shows just uncomfortable to even watch.

I mean how horrible is Wife Swap? I watched once and just felt so bad for the kids of both families and never watched again.

Yea but it's a real win for the producers. Who needs to bother with those scripts and plots and scenes and all that mess!! Not to mention those finacky actors and what they have to get paid!

I blame Jerry Springer personally. It's all his fault.

146 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:27:03am

re: #126 Baier

in ancient Greece most of the people were slaves and few in population actually voted.
I didn't realize one could consider that "moral".


In the US not only did we not let our slaves vote to start with but we counted them as 3/5ths of a person to help those who did own slaves get greater representation in the lower house.

What made America "the worlds first moral" nation exactly?

147 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:28:09am

The Palestinians and their Arab allies were anything but neutral about the fate of European Jewry. The official leader of the Palestinians, Haj Amin al-Husseini, spent the war years in Berlin with Hitler, serving as a consultant on the Jewish question. Husseini famously posed with Hitler for a photograph that was proudly displayed in the homes of many Palestinians. He was taken on a tour of Auschwitz by Himmler and expressed support for the mass murder of European Jews. He also sought to "solve the problems of the Jewish element in Palestine and other Arab countries" by employing "the same method" being used "in the Axis countries." He would not be satisfied with the Jewish residents of Palestine - - many of whom were descendants of Sephardic Jews who had lived there for hundreds, even thousands, of years - - remaining as a minority in a Muslim state. Like Hitler, he wanted to be rid of "every last Jew." As Husseini wrote in his memoirs:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'"

The Mufti was apparently planning to return to Palestine in the event of a German victory and to construct a death camp, modeled after Auschwitz, near Nablus. Husseini incited his pro-Nazi followers with the words "Arise, o sons of Arabia. Fight for your sacred rights. Slaughter Jews wherever you find them. Their spilled blood pleases Allah, our history and religion. That will save our honor." In 1944, a German-Arab commando unit, under Husseini's command, parachuted into Palestine and poisoned Tel Aviv's wells.

Husseini also helped to inspire a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq and helped to organize thousands of Muslims in the Balkans into military units known as Handselar divisions which carried out atrocities against Yugoslav Jews, Serbs and Gypsies. After a meeting with Hitler, he recorded the following in his diary:

The Mufti: "The Arabs were Germany's natural friends... They were therefore prepared to cooperate with Germany with all their hearts and stood ready to participate in a war, not only negatively by the commission of acts of sabotage and the instigation of revolutions, but also positively by the formation of an Arab Legion. In this struggle, the Arabs were striving for the independence and the unity of Palestine, Syria and Iraq....

SNIP

148 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:28:15am

re: #146 jamesfirecat

William Wilberforce. England could make a pretty good claim to the moral nation trophy.

149 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:28:32am

re: #115 webevintage

Oh.... here's how I know who she is. Almost as embarrassing, but not really......
The Red Carpet Fashion Police post-SAG and Grammy show. Have to see the cocktail dresses..... some of them will be knocked off immediately and in the stores
(Snooki was a ' Worst Dressed ', btw).
:)

150 Baier  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:28:57am

re: #146 jamesfirecat

In the US not only did we not let our slaves vote to start with but we counted them as 3/5ths of a person to help those who did own slaves get greater representation in the lower house.

What made America "the worlds first moral" nation exactly?

I'm not saying the US is moral. You said the Greeks were, which is ridiculous.

151 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:29:52am

re: #143 Alouette

Just to point out that the Catholic Church did not invent anti-Semitism. But who invented the Catholic Church? Oh yeah, the Romans.

Early on, "Catholic" was just one of several characteristics of the Christian church. It's easy to describe Christianity as a Jewish heresy.

152 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:30:01am

re: #145 marjoriemoon

I had no idea that they were so much cheaper to conceptualize, cast, and produce until I saw the figures. Night and Day.

153 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:30:08am

re: #150 Baier

I'm not saying the US is moral. You said the Greeks were, which is ridiculous.

If you get a group of people bigger than, say, 10, there's going be an immoral jackass amongst them.

154 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:30:10am

re: #131 Naso Tang

I don't disagree with whose "idea" it was, but I object to the suggestion that being a second class citizen without the rights of a citizen was "better" than something else.

Well then you don't know Jewish history. Jews would rather have lived in Muslim nations than Christian ones at that time. The Rambam was offered a job as the personal physician to the King of which Christian nation, I forgot (have to look it up), but decided to stay in Morocco for this very reason.

155 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:30:33am

re: #150 Baier

I'm not saying the US is moral. You said the Greeks were, which is ridiculous.

I was just picking an example off the top of my head even if it turned out to be wrong. I have no strong feelings about if the Greeks were a "moral nation" or not, but I'm fairly certain that you're cheerleading for your country beyond logic and common sense when you say that America was the worlds "First moral nation" and that's the real bone I have to pic with what she said.

156 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:31:14am

re: #146 jamesfirecat

No one said perfect. The Bill of Rights was a pretty good start.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:31:29am

re: #104 Buck

Did you read the link? Or the Book?

I read the link. I'm deeply dubious about the premise, and would need to read up further on the author's political as well as academic background.

158 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:31:36am

re: #147 MandyManners

That's true, but it would probably be more accurate to say that Hitler influenced the Mufti and not the other way around.

159 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:33:24am

If one is going to second guess the legacy of the deceased in polite company one always defers to family members or close friends. In the case of Ron Reagan in this video it clearly show the lack of class and social graces with the likes of Pamela Geller.

Listening to Sarah Palin in that short clip reminded me of either a children's show or Barney. I can't figure out which but she consistently has been coming of like the pedestrian character that she is.

160 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:33:29am

re: #155 jamesfirecat

Cheerleading for one's country?!?
ZOMG.
Send them to Jingo Jail.

161 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:34:34am

Over at the official UK Iraq-invasion-navel-gazing ceremony it looks like they want to start getting testimony from US officials:

Bush officials to face Iraq inquiry?

John Chilcot, the head of the London inquiry, said he would consider calling on U.S. servicemen and members of the Bush administration in for formal meetings.

This should be interesting.

162 Baier  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:34:55am

re: #155 jamesfirecat

...but I'm fairly certain that you're cheerleading for your country beyond logic and common sense when you say that America was the worlds "First moral nation" and that's the real bone I have to pic with what she said.

I feel pretty certain you have no idea what you're talking about half the time.

163 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:35:30am

re: #160 tradewind

Cheerleading for one's country?!?
ZOMG.
Send them to Jingo Jail.

Can I cheerlead for someone else's country?

When they broke up the Templars, the only country that didn't get wack-o confessions from the Templars was England (at least at first), because it was illegal to torture.

164 markie  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:36:19am

re: #18 Charles

The term "teabaggers" was started by the tea partiers themselves.

I wonder if they would have done so had they seen the other use for that term on the internet....


You meant "got to shut up" not "not to shut up", right?

165 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:38:27am

The family that denies together....

GOP senator’s family builds igloo to mock global warming

The apple doesn't seem to fall far from the tree in Sen. Jim Inhofe's (R-OK) family. The rabid climate change denier's loved ones have joined together for the common purpose of poking fun at global warming and Al Gore.

Members of Inhofe's family braved the historic snow storms crippling the nation's capital and other northeastern cities to build a sizable igloo near the Washington National Mall in honor of the outspoken climate activist and former vice president.

Atop lies a sign at reads "AL GORE'S NEW HOME!" on one side and "HONK IF YOU [HEART] GLOBAL WARMING" on the other.

[...]

166 keloyd  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:38:49am

re: #139 Alouette

True, but I did say "loose analogy". I was lucky to get to know some people from random places in school well enough that they could speak a bit more openly. I heard a bit of snobbery from the proper Mainland Han(?) Chinese grad student friends about the provincial ethnic Chinese from other places, nttawwt. I won't begrudge some ethnic group I'm no part of being snobs about their provincials as long as no one is stopping me making fun of the deep South or the Irish. It just shows history always repeats. None of us are that good or that hopelessly bad.

bonus - being the only white guy in the room when the Chinese are making fun of the difficulty to pronounce the Indonesian names, when both individuals needed a bit of a running start to get my name right.

167 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:39:08am

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

I read the link. I'm deeply dubious about the premise, and would need to read up further on the author's political as well as academic background.

There's actually quite a bit on LGF about the Mufti/Nazi connections and all those pictures of the Mufti inspecting the troops. In fact, that's where I first learned it, here. But it was Hitler's baby (well you know this but others may not). I'm sure Hitler was happy to find a friend in the Mufti.

168 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:39:18am

re: #146 jamesfirecat

In the US not only did we not let our slaves vote to start with but we counted them as 3/5ths of a person to help those who did own slaves get greater representation in the lower house.

What made America "the worlds first moral" nation exactly?

The slave-owning states wanted their slaves to count for a whole person and the non-slave-owning states did not want them to be counted at all.

Geez, if you are going to complain about the 3/5ths compromise at least take the time to learn what it was all about.

169 JeffM70  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:39:37am

This was my first exposure to Pamela Geller, and it is clear to me the end of the world is upon us. I have lost all faith in humankind.

170 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:39:42am

Anybody heard anything balanced on this Planned Parenthood International 10 year old sex ed thing? Monica Crowley is OUTRAGED on Fox right now, and I can't find anything that isn't from Newsmax and the like. I can't tell if this is a nontroversy or not.

171 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:39:47am

re: #165 freetoken

The family that denies together...

GOP senator’s family builds igloo to mock global warming

Heartwarming....
/

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:39:56am

re: #114 JRCMYP

You are absolutely correct Charles. For example, the yellow star that Jews were forced to wear during Nazi Germany had its origin in early 13th century Europe. The Council of Lateran decreed that Jews (and Muslims and other socially marginalized groups) were required to wear identifying "badges." Jews had to wear a yellow star. This is just a small example of a long and complicated history of Jews in Europe. Anti-semitism was hardly a 20th century notion imported from the Middle East. Its origins are rooted in the Catholic Church.

Last line is untrue, but as for the rest, rock on. There's an outrageous whitewashing of the Jewish experience in Europe that goes along with the exaggeration of Islam as the root of all anti-Jewish sentiment.

173 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:40:05am

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

I read the link. I'm deeply dubious about the premise, and would need to read up further on the author's political as well as academic background.

OK. and he is not the only one who think so. AND he documents it pretty well. Including setting the start of the timeline, not when he moved to Berlin (as most people seem to assume, but as far back as 1936.

So it surprises me, if a historian would dismiss the theory out of hand.

174 Baier  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:40:15am

re: #168 Alouette

The slave-owning states wanted their slaves to count for a whole person and the non-slave-owning states did not want them to be counted at all.

Geez, if you are going to complain about the 3/5ths compromise at least take the time to learn what it was all about.

He likes to riff man...no time for Wikipedia.

175 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:40:16am

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

The Germans were anti-Semites long before the Nazis as well.

Nobody denies that, but as has been stated, most minorities were in the same boat at one time or another in human history. It is those who were most successful that took the hardest hits. Today one can point to many in Europe in particular, including Muslims, and perhaps the oldest of them are the Romas/Gypsies/Travellers. The common denominators are that they don't integrate with the majority, and in many cases request special treatments as a result.

The question is; to what degree can a society have diversity and still call itself one society?

I don't know the answer.

176 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:40:28am

re: #160 tradewind

Cheerleading for one's country?!?
ZOMG.
Send them to Jingo Jail.

Not saying there is anything illegal about it, but you're aware of the kind of bad things can happen when you love your country... if I might borrow a line from Shakespeare "Not wisely but too well"

177 Ericus58  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:40:35am

re: #161 freetoken

Over at the official UK Iraq-invasion-navel-gazing ceremony it looks like they want to start getting testimony from US officials:

Bush officials to face Iraq inquiry?

This should be interesting.

If they want to engage in looking for bogeymen, they should stick to citizens of their own country. Allowing US citizens to come under their 'investigations' is a crock.

178 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:42:04am

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Have you read Chaim Potok's Wanderings?

The same pattern, over and over. Jews find a home; Jews prosper and are safe for a little while, then persecution.

Makes one appreciate the need for a homeland.

179 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:42:16am

Just lovely. Mo-rons imitating mo-rons. This is the current state of political discourse in the US these days.

180 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:42:25am

re: #168 Alouette

The slave-owning states wanted their slaves to count for a whole person and the non-slave-owning states did not want them to be counted at all.

Geez, if you are going to complain about the 3/5ths compromise at least take the time to learn what it was all about.

I know what the 3/5ths compramise was, and I'm just saying that the way our founding fathers caved into the salves owners (even if we wouldn't have had a country if they didn't) is an example of why America like any other nation in the world is imperfect.

I just don't see how a nation can be "moral" really....

181 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:43:12am

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Last line is untrue, but as for the rest, rock on. There's an outrageous whitewashing of the Jewish experience in Europe that goes along with the exaggeration of Islam as the root of all anti-Jewish sentiment.

I'm sorry, why would you say the last line of that is untrue, "Anti-semitism was hardly a 20th century notion imported from the Middle East. Its origins are rooted in the Catholic Church." I'm not following you.

182 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:43:31am

re: #154 marjoriemoon

Well then you don't know Jewish history. Jews would rather have lived in Muslim nations than Christian ones at that time. The Rambam was offered a job as the personal physician to the King of which Christian nation, I forgot (have to look it up), but decided to stay in Morocco for this very reason.

Of course there can be choices which are better than the worst and less than the best. I don't deny what you describe; but excusing it is like excusing slavery because most slave owners were better than the worst.

Perhaps you are not actually excusing anything, but it could be read that way.

183 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:45:32am

Didn't see the actual show, and Geller seems to have been her usual awful self, but honestly..... it's a stretch for Joy Behar to make anyone look bad in comparison.
She always looks as if she smells something rotting.

184 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:45:55am

re: #180 jamesfirecat

Given the complexity of a nation, and the length of time involved, no nation will be blameless.

There are nations, however, that have done things that were morally right, even if they were not in the nation's best interest.

185 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:46:36am

re: #181 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry, why would you say the last line of that is untrue, "Anti-semitism was hardly a 20th century notion imported from the Middle East. Its origins are rooted in the Catholic Church." I'm not following you.

Because antisemitism predated the Catholic Church and Christianity in general. Medieval European Catholics simply expanded on it, and it was turned up to 11 in the 20th century.

186 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:47:11am

Not surprised:

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

"It's not illegal to talk out of both sides of your mouth, but it does seem to be a level of dishonesty troubling to the American public," said Melanie Sloan, executive director of the watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. "

I guess this goes along with conservatives having issues with "pork" except for that which is for their districts. See Shelby (R-AL)....

187 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:47:27am

re: #176 jamesfirecat

Yeah, and you can break a rib if you hug too tightly.
You can make a mess out of almost every noble thing in life, but why go out of your way?

188 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:47:46am

re: #179 lawhawk

Just lovely. Mo-rons imitating mo-rons. This is the current state of political discourse in the US these days.

Following President Obama's surprise appearance at the White House press briefing,

I wonder if that NYT article about his not having a presser for ages got to him. Did he take questions?

189 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:47:58am

Iran's thugs are attacking embassies in Tehran: "protesters" threw eggs and tomatoes at the French, Italian and Dutch embassies.

Fars news agency reported the students waved Iranian flags and held pictures of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and his predecessor, Ruhollah Musavi Khomeini.

They shouted "Death to America" and "Death to Britain," and called for the death of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. IRNA reported that protesters also threw tomatoes and eggs at the Italian embassy.

In a statement published by students, they called on the government of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to cut back diplomatic ties with Italy, France and the Netherlands. They also stated that they had planned to protest in front of the Dutch embassy but were not granted permission to do so by the authorities.

We're coming up on the 30 year anniversary of the revolution. No doubt that this is part of the festivities arranged by the regime.

190 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:48:03am

re: #175 Naso Tang

Nobody denies that, but as has been stated, most minorities were in the same boat at one time or another in human history. It is those who were most successful that took the hardest hits. Today one can point to many in Europe in particular, including Muslims, and perhaps the oldest of them are the Romas/Gypsies/Travellers. The common denominators are that they don't integrate with the majority, and in many cases request special treatments as a result.

The question is; to what degree can a society have diversity and still call itself one society?

I don't know the answer.

The Jews never asked for special treatments. They wanted to dress they way they wanted, pray the way they wanted and speak their own language. Why is that "asking for special treatment?" To be left alone to be themselves? For sure, they were different, but they could have been part of society and still different. We do it in the U.S. all the time (Little Italy, Chinatown, etc.).

191 simoom  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:48:12am

Here's (aspiring GOP Presidential nominee) Mike Huckabee with Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel drawing attention to how Texas textbook decisions have national importance, attempting to scare their Fox audience with the idea of a liberal assault on those textbooks (by some members of the Texas Board of Education) and then encouraging that audience to speak up and pressure the Board.

Staver: ... and really removing our religious heritage and history, and the patriotic history. No longer will you have American citizen, you will in fact have global citizen. And, in fact free enterprise and those kinds of things, those are no good any more. And America's looked at not as some country that gave liberty and freedom to others around the world, but as a global villain. And so that's kind of how this textbook proposal is being proposed from a committee, and so this group of 15 people will be voting on it and Cynthia Dunbar actually is one of those 15 and she's the real champion. She's actually a professor at Liberty University School of Law and so she's a strong voice for just strong, common sense ...

One of Charles' previous posts that touched on Cynthia Dunbar: Texas Creationism Follies, the Sequel

Huckabee: We are a nation, where people have historically understood, that the American exceptionalism is large measure due to the providence of God.

(h/t rightwingwatch)

192 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:48:15am

re: #184 EmmmieG

Given the complexity of a nation, and the length of time involved, no nation will be blameless.

There are nations, however, that have done things that were morally right, even if they were not in the nation's best interest.

That is a statement I can behind. I just doubt that America was the first such nation to do things that were morally right if against our own interest, not to say we haven't done them, but our nation is effectively more or less one "tick" on the 24 hour clock of human existence.

193 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:48:21am

re: #165 freetoken

Don't you have any sense of humor left?

194 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:49:34am

re: #154 marjoriemoon

Well then you don't know Jewish history. Jews would rather have lived in Muslim nations than Christian ones at that time. The Rambam was offered a job as the personal physician to the King of which Christian nation, I forgot (have to look it up), but decided to stay in Morocco for this very reason.

Leave out the effects of the rules "Dhimmitude" on a society... but ok.

195 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:49:38am

re: #188 MandyManners

One thing about Obama.... nearly everything ' gets ' to him. POTUS appears to have very thin skin when it comes to criticism.

196 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:50:26am

re: #189 lawhawk

We had better get ready to man up and support the protesters if and when the opportunity presents.

197 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:50:59am

re: #185 ArchangelMichael

Because antisemitism predated the Catholic Church and Christianity in general. Medieval European Catholics simply expanded on it, and it was turned up to 11 in the 20th century.

Agree in general, although ancient anti-semitism might blend into simple imperial struggles. (Especially for the valuable chunk of land along the west end of the Med.)

198 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:51:53am

re: #189 lawhawk

Iran's thugs are attacking embassies in Tehran: "protesters" threw eggs and tomatoes at the French, Italian and Dutch embassies.

We're coming up on the 30 year anniversary of the revolution. No doubt that this is part of the festivities arranged by the regime.

Nostalgia, again.

199 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:52:01am

re: #179 lawhawk

Gibbs could use some crib notes, given his track record.

200 keloyd  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:53:07am

re: #154 marjoriemoon and Nano Tsang

Also, Islam was the first Western religion to explicitly spell out the rights of outsiders of another faith. The Roman Catholic Church went pretty far afield from Jesus' teachings on how to treat your neighbor. Mohamed and the Koran made the Jews and Christians 2nd class, forbade them certain political rights, and charged extra taxes, but also set in stone that they had property rights, the right to engage in most businesses, to come and go as they pleased. The letter of their law was very progressive at the time.

Same goes for (free) women's rights. When Mo said women inherit half what their male siblings get when the father dies, we see sexism. People of that time saw a progressive religion granting property rights to women who could otherwise be treated as something below a male child and above a goat.

201 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:53:19am

re: #195 tradewind

One thing about Obama... nearly everything ' gets ' to him. POTUS appears to have very thin skin when it comes to criticism.

What system do you use to measure if something has "gotten" to the president?

202 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:53:26am

re: #180 jamesfirecat

I just don't see how a nation can be "moral" really...

I think the notion you're referring to is that the US was created from scratch by thoughtful and educated philosophers, rather than just evolving however it evolved, by centuries of kings being beheaded and giving way to new kings, etc. People came together, discussed what would be the best way to rule a country, and then did it. Thus, a moral country.

203 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:53:33am

re: #195 tradewind

One thing about Obama... nearly everything ' gets ' to him. POTUS appears to have very thin skin when it comes to criticism.

Really?
How so?

204 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:54:04am

re: #191 simoom

"Our mutual friend David Barton..."


Hehe...

205 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:54:38am

re: #195 tradewind

One thing about Obama... nearly everything ' gets ' to him. POTUS appears to have very thin skin when it comes to criticism.

Narcissists do.

206 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:54:48am

re: #182 Naso Tang

Of course there can be choices which are better than the worst and less than the best. I don't deny what you describe; but excusing it is like excusing slavery because most slave owners were better than the worst.

Perhaps you are not actually excusing anything, but it could be read that way.

You don't seem to know the history and you're making assumptions.

Jews being allowed to live as JEWS, they can speak their language, dress, and pray without being persecuted is what they wanted. The Muslims were ok with that, they just had to pay a tax to do it. Today that would be insane, but during the dark ages it was preferable than being beaten, killed or starved off your land.

There was a woman who posted on LGF a longggg time ago who was a Muslim hater with all the depth of her soul. Wished them all dead. I made the comment once that the war between Muslims and Jews was so odd to me since we share so much of the same culture. She pointed me to an article, an interpretation of the Rambam where he preferred Christianity over Islam because we shared a bible. That was patently untrue, I found out later after actually reading the Rambam's history.

I'm not pointing a finger at Catholics or Christians. It's all been over for 100s of years, but history IS history and I won't rewrite it.

207 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:58:23am

re: #182 Naso Tang

Of course there can be choices which are better than the worst and less than the best. I don't deny what you describe; but excusing it is like excusing slavery because most slave owners were better than the worst.

Perhaps you are not actually excusing anything, but it could be read that way.

I don't know why. I never excused anything! I'm stating historical fact, that's all.

208 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:58:32am

re: #190 marjoriemoon

The Jews never asked for special treatments. They wanted to dress they way they wanted, pray the way they wanted and speak their own language. Why is that "asking for special treatment?" To be left alone to be themselves? For sure, they were different, but they could have been part of society and still different. We do it in the U.S. all the time (Little Italy, Chinatown, etc.).

I wasn't there, but I doubt that special treatment was never requested, even if it was only shutting the only store in a neighborhood when all non Jews would have wanted to shop.

I don't know how you can say "to be left alone to be themselves" and then say they can be a part of the surrounding society. I trust you don't think I justify discriminating in any concrete sense, but to pretend that people who choose not to adopt the prevailing culture can never face at least dislike, is naive.

We could discuss this for a long time I am sure, and none of my statements need be applied to Jews uniquely; which makes me think of something called the survivor effect.

We speak mostly of those who survive danger and calamity. Seldom of those who are gone entirely, and they did exist.

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:59:28am

re: #131 Naso Tang

I don't disagree with whose "idea" it was, but I object to the suggestion that being a second class citizen without the rights of a citizen was "better" than something else.

It's better than being a second-class citizen with even fewer rights.

210 RadicalModerate  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 11:59:32am

Michelle Bachmann is bringing the industrial-grade crazy yet again:

Bachmann: 'If We Reject Israel, Then There Is A Curse That Comes Into Play'

Choice quote:

"I am convinced in my heart and in my mind that if the United States fails to stand with Israel, that is the end of the United States . . . [W]e have to show that we are inextricably entwined, that as a nation we have been blessed because of our relationship with Israel, and if we reject Israel, then there is a curse that comes into play."

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:00:52pm

re: #142 Buck

Even if all of her OTHER claims are about space aliens creating the birth certificate... it should not mean that every thing she might say is wrong.

This is really not as crazy a theory as all of you seem to make it out to be. If I say that Himmler had a really big influence on the final solution, am I making excuses for Hitler? Am I revising history?

The book (and it is not the only one) makes a good case. I admit the reaction of this crowd to is surprises me. Maybe it is just because they heard it from Geller first. However it is NOT her theory.

Yes, but it's a dubious theory she grativated to for obvious reasons, and not one with a ton of academic support.

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:01:29pm

re: #146 jamesfirecat

In the US not only did we not let our slaves vote to start with but we counted them as 3/5ths of a person to help those who did own slaves get greater representation in the lower house.

What made America "the worlds first moral" nation exactly?

We got bettah.

No sarc tag.

213 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:01:57pm

re: #210 RadicalModerate

Michelle Bachmann is bringing the industrial-grade crazy yet again:

Bachmann: 'If We Reject Israel, Then There Is A Curse That Comes Into Play'

Choice quote:

I think the curse part is stupid, but if you are in a mine, and the canary dies... you don't just get a fresh supply of canaries to solve the problem (deadly gas).

214 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:02:05pm

re: #134 Alouette

I am sure the "Final Solution" was Hitler's own idea, but he might have had doubts that he would actually be able to pull it off. The Mufti and other lickspittle ass-kissers convinced him to go for it.

I don't know... (sorry I missed your comment). Even from Mandy's cut and paste upthread and that pretty much is what I've read too, it seemed to be clear that Hitler had found a friend in the Mufti not the other way around, but I think you agree with that. heh

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:02:13pm

re: #150 Baier

I'm not saying the US is moral. You said the Greeks were, which is ridiculous.

But IF you posit that the US is moral, THEN could you posit that the Greeks ALSO were????

///

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:03:25pm

re: #154 marjoriemoon

Well then you don't know Jewish history. Jews would rather have lived in Muslim nations than Christian ones at that time. The Rambam was offered a job as the personal physician to the King of which Christian nation, I forgot (have to look it up), but decided to stay in Morocco for this very reason.

Jews expelled from Spain flooded into the Ottoman countries. The sultan at the time of the Expulsion is said to have commented scornfully that Ferdinand and Isabella were impoverishing their own country to the benefit of his.

217 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:03:47pm

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

It's better than being a second-class citizen with even fewer rights.

I believe this started with the allegation that Muslims "then" were better than Muslims now (with regard to Jews); whereas in the final analysis, IMHO, "then" was just a different point in the political cycle of pragmatism.

218 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:04:00pm

re: #202 cliffster

I think the notion you're referring to is that the US was created from scratch by thoughtful and educated philosophers, rather than just evolving however it evolved, by centuries of kings being beheaded and giving way to new kings, etc. People came together, discussed what would be the best way to rule a country, and then did it. Thus, a moral country.

I think its over reaching to say we were created "from scratch" given that the US did borrow a lot of ideas from nations that had come before, for example we have a bicameral legislature, and idea that we'd doubtlessly seen in action in England.

Also while I agree with much of what you say, it also seems inherent in argument that government, or philosophers can "legislate morality" from the top down, where if they only right up the right laws then we'll be a moral country, and I'm not sure I agree with that.

I agree with you that the US was doubtlessly a unique country in the way that we took ideas that had previously only existed in bits and pieces scattered around several other nations and then combined them all in one place...

219 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:04:01pm

re: #210 RadicalModerate

Michelle Bachmann is bringing the industrial-grade crazy yet again:

Bachmann: 'If We Reject Israel, Then There Is A Curse That Comes Into Play'

Choice quote:

"This, above all, is the greatest treason,
To do the right thing, for the wrong reason."

220 firstinla  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:04:33pm

re: #206 marjoriemoon

It depends on whose version of history one reads. There was in fact no such institution as the "Catholic Church" in the early centuries of Christianity. There was simply the Christian Church. The greatest influence in Christianity was the Greek version, not the Roman version. Putting aside the dubious claim that Peter was the first pope, the first popes were Greeks, not westerners. To use the term "the Catholic Church" is simply imcorrect.

221 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:04:53pm

re: #199 tradewind

I think he does, they are on Rahm's palm.

222 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:05:10pm

re: #210 RadicalModerate

Michelle Bachmann is bringing the industrial-grade crazy yet again:

Bachmann: 'If We Reject Israel, Then There Is A Curse That Comes Into Play'

Choice quote:

Then I guess if we forsake Israel and a terrible earthquake turns California into an island, Satan will be responsible for it...

223 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:07:14pm

re: #222 jamesfirecat

Then I guess if we forsake Israel and a terrible earthquake turns California into an island, Satan will be responsible for it...

Then I suppose Satan's responsible for the coming destruction of the Earth when our star turns into a red giant...
;)

224 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:07:32pm

re: #203 webevintage

Not my original idea. [Link: www.slate.com...]
[Link: www.bvblackspin.com...]
[Link: www.politicsdaily.com...]
Just a few, with right-leaning sites avoided for purity//.

225 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:08:12pm

re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but it's a dubious theory she grativated to for obvious reasons, and not one with a ton of academic support.

OK, I guess I will take "dubious" over "silly".

But there a lot of academic support... if you look for it.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:08:18pm

re: #167 marjoriemoon

There's actually quite a bit on LGF about the Mufti/Nazi connections and all those pictures of the Mufti inspecting the troops. In fact, that's where I first learned it, here. But it was Hitler's baby (well you know this but others may not). I'm sure Hitler was happy to find a friend in the Mufti.


Oh, I'm aware of the connection, and some of the ramifications. Just critical of some of the ideas people seem to be building on it.

227 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:04pm

re: #221 Rightwingconspirator

You mean there's writing underneath all that hair?

228 Achilles Tang  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:05pm

bbl

229 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:30pm

re: #180 jamesfirecat

I know what the 3/5ths compramise was, and I'm just saying that the way our founding fathers caved into the salves owners (even if we wouldn't have had a country if they didn't) is an example of why America like any other nation in the world is imperfect.

I just don't see how a nation can be "moral" really...

No nation can be moral, but some nations are less immoral than others.

230 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:10:32pm

re: #222 jamesfirecat

Then I guess if we forsake Israel and a terrible earthquake turns California into an island, Satan will be responsible for it...

No, Teh Ghey will be rezbonzibbl

///////

231 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:11:07pm

re: #229 Alouette

No nation can be moral, but some nations are less immoral than others.

That I can agree with you 100% on.

232 JeffM70  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:11:47pm

re: #210 RadicalModerate

I simply don't understand this obsession the far right has with Israel. It's almost as if the United States has to subordinate its interests to those of Israel's, at least in instances where there is a disagreement.

233 Digital Display  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:12:06pm

re: #43 wrenchwench

"She didn't quit, she heard the call of the lower 48..."

Heehehehe

The call for revolution! What rubbish Pam..

234 keloyd  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:12:22pm

re: #213 Buck

I think the curse part is stupid, but if you are in a mine, and the canary dies... you don't just get a fresh supply of canaries to solve the problem (deadly gas).

1. I'm going to steal that 'bring more canaries' line, if you don't mind.
2. This evangelical pro-Israel talk is a little dangerous. Pro-semitism, if that's a word, is as prejudicial as antisemitism. If we can't waggle our finger at an ally for white phosphorus bombs or a certain apathy on controlling illegal settlers, then that's irrational prejudice as much as hatin' on the Jews, imho. It's not unreasonable to support Israel while judging everyone's behavior by the same standard. The center-left voices of the Knesset are not less pro-Israel than Bachmann.

235 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:12:49pm

re: #232 JeffM70

I simply don't understand this obsession the far right has with Israel. It's almost as if the United States has to subordinate its interests to those of Israel's, at least in instances where there is a disagreement.

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany....

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:13:38pm

re: #173 Buck

OK. and he is not the only one who think so. AND he documents it pretty well. Including setting the start of the timeline, not when he moved to Berlin (as most people seem to assume, but as far back as 1936.

So it surprises me, if a historian would dismiss the theory out of hand.

Can you provide me with a historically trained scholar who 'thinks so', and is on faculty at a respected university?

Rosenthal writes: The central thesis of Küntzel’s book is that anti-Semitism — or, more precisely, modern anti-Semitism as crystallized in the “Jewish world conspiracy” theory — was largely imported into the Muslim world from Nazi Germany.

Please note who is influencing who there. Kuntzel does not back up a thesis of Muslim influence on Germany. Who does?

237 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:14:02pm

She came off like a cornered racoon. I got the feeling that she wished she had not made the "Your father would have loved her" comment, but once they called her on it, she figured in for a penny in for a pound. She really sounded pathetic. You know when a kid knows they have lost the argument, but cant say ok you are right, and so they just say the same thing over and over again, louder and louder. I thought, though, as much as I despise Palin, that all of them sounded a little juvenile for my taste. Reagan had a few substantive comments, but most of the discussion was a forum for Behar to make jokes about her. I can't imagine any serious right wing pundits wanting to go on that show.

238 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:14:14pm

re: #232 JeffM70

There's a theological reason for the religious right's support for Israel. Biblical prophesy relies on rebuilding on the temple mount to bring the return of JC. They view Israel as their personal doomsday machine.

239 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:14:44pm

re: #229 Alouette

No nation can be moral, but some nations are less immoral than others.


re: #231 jamesfirecat

I'm not sure that "moral" and "immoral" are useful words to apply to nations. It's like saying velvet is saltier than corduroy.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:15:02pm

re: #181 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry, why would you say the last line of that is untrue, "Anti-semitism was hardly a 20th century notion imported from the Middle East. Its origins are rooted in the Catholic Church." I'm not following you.

The origins of anti-Semitism are not rooted in the Catholic Church, although the Church certainly got a creeper wrapped firmly around it early on. Does that make sense?

241 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:15:29pm

re: #234 keloyd

1. I'm going to steal that 'bring more canaries' line, if you don't mind.
2. This evangelical pro-Israel talk is a little dangerous. Pro-semitism, if that's a word, is as prejudicial as antisemitism. If we can't waggle our finger at an ally for white phosphorus bombs or a certain apathy on controlling illegal settlers, then that's irrational prejudice as much as hatin' on the Jews, imho. It's not unreasonable to support Israel while judging everyone's behavior by the same standard. The center-left voices of the Knesset are not less pro-Israel than Bachmann.

I can't speak for everyone, but nitpicking the little democratic country while others fire rockets indiscriminately seems silly.

Step 1: less rockets and suicide civilian bombings.
Step 2: we waggle our fingers.

how does that sound?

242 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:15:51pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

The origins of anti-Semitism are not rooted in the Catholic Church, although the Church certainly got a creeper wrapped firmly around it early on. Does that make sense?

Well said, and pithy to boot!

243 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:16:09pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

The origins of anti-Semitism are not rooted in the Catholic Church, although the Church certainly got a creeper wrapped firmly around it early on. Does that make sense?


Also, see:
re: #220 firstinla

It depends on whose version of history one reads. There was in fact no such institution as the "Catholic Church" in the early centuries of Christianity. There was simply the Christian Church. The greatest influence in Christianity was the Greek version, not the Roman version. Putting aside the dubious claim that Peter was the first pope, the first popes were Greeks, not westerners. To use the term "the Catholic Church" is simply imcorrect.

244 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:16:13pm

re: #237 Petero1818

She came off like a cornered racoon. I got the feeling that she wished she had not made the "Your father would have loved her" comment, but once they called her on it, she figured in for a penny in for a pound. She really sounded pathetic. You know when a kid knows they have lost the argument, but cant say ok you are right, and so they just say the same thing over and over again, louder and louder. I thought, though, as much as I despise Palin, that all of them sounded a little juvenile for my taste. Reagan had a few substantive comments, but most of the discussion was a forum for Behar to make jokes about her. I can't imagine any serious right wing pundits wanting to go on that show.

Who are these "serious right wing pundits" of which you speak?

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:17:31pm

re: #194 Buck

Leave out the effects of the rules "Dhimmitude" on a society... but ok.

No, it doesn't, but it acknowledges that the equivalent restraints in Europe were just as bad, and at times worse. 'Dhimmitude' existed in Christendom as well, they just didn't call it that.

246 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:18:11pm

re: #241 Aceofwhat?

I can't speak for everyone, but nitpicking the little democratic country while others fire rockets indiscriminately seems silly.

Step 1: less rockets and suicide civilian bombings.
Step 2: we waggle our fingers.

how does that sound?

The goal should not be just to win, it should be to win while not giving up those grander things we were fighting for beyond survival.

That's why I think we should lean on Israel if they do something "wrong" even if it might comparatively "less wrong" than what their opponents are doing.

247 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:18:16pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

There's a theological reason for the religious right's support for Israel. Biblical prophesy relies on rebuilding on the temple mount to bring the return of JC. They view Israel as their personal doomsday machine.

I'll thank you not to project the ravings of a lunatic fringe on the rest of us who believe in God and find ourselves somewhere right of dead-center.

And Biblical prophesy relies on no such thing. A few may claim it does. The difference between those two sentences could span parsecs.

(insert comment here about parsecs not being a unit of distance...)

248 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:18:54pm

re: #232 JeffM70

Many of the active Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians in this country believe in a variant of Dispensationalism. In many variants of Dispensational eschatology a physically reborn "Israel" plays the central role in God's plan for the Earth. Thus many American Christians tend towards a very religious form of Zionism.

Pre 19th century such Zionist doctrines would not be common in Christian teaching.

249 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:19:18pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

So why didn't you?

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:19:45pm

re: #208 Naso Tang

I wasn't there, but I doubt that special treatment was never requested, even if it was only shutting the only store in a neighborhood when all non Jews would have wanted to shop.

Read up on the Jewish communities of Europe and get back to me. Tell me a time when that's even a plausible scenario.

251 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:20:24pm

BBL

252 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:20:34pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

There's a theological reason for the religious right's support for Israel. Biblical prophesy relies on rebuilding on the temple mount to bring the return of JC. They view Israel as their personal doomsday machine.

Absolutely correct, and I was typing out that same response (in my own words of course) when I saw your post appear.

But in further response to JeffM70 - there are plenty of folks who are NOT on the far religious right who display an "obsessive" support of Israel for all sorts of reasons that do not have to do with any doomsday scenario, but simply because they believe, deeply, that supporting Israel is the right thing to do.

253 RadicalModerate  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:20:37pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

There's a theological reason for the religious right's support for Israel. Biblical prophesy relies on rebuilding on the temple mount to bring the return of JC. They view Israel as their personal doomsday machine.

Here's a good article to understand the Dominionists' belief that a strong Israeli state will cause the Rapture to occur more quickly:

Jews, Israel, and the Rapture

254 bratwurst  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:20:46pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a lot of revisionist history going around, as people paint Muslim history in darker and more lurid colors, and clean up the West's record in regard to Jews and Muslims and theocracy.

I get irritable. I was a history major, once upon a time.

I regret I only have one upding for this. Count me as another Jew who is not willing to demonize Islam.

255 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:21:08pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

There's a theological reason for the religious right's support for Israel. Biblical prophesy relies on rebuilding on the temple mount to bring the return of JC. They view Israel as their personal doomsday machine.

You don't know what evangelicals "think" any more than you know what Jews "think." You are not a mind reader.

256 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:21:53pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat

The goal should not be just to win, it should be to win while not giving up those grander things we were fighting for beyond survival.

That's why I think we should lean on Israel if they do something "wrong" even if it might comparatively "less wrong" than what their opponents are doing.

I think it's a lot easier to armchair quarterback when it wasn't my aunt or uncle who was shredded in the latest blast.

I'm not saying carte blanche. But few organizations are as blatantly and inhumanly disingenuous as Israel's enemies. I stoutly believe that we're kidding ourselves if we think that a good example can be set that those of Hamas' ilk will follow. Rather, this is about what a nation's conscience can endure as it strives to protect its citizens.

257 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:21:59pm

re: #249 Alouette

So why didn't you?

Umm... I've got no idea, that's why I asked the question.

Are you trying to insinuate that I made that policy decision? My parents hadn't even been born yet when it happened...

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:22:13pm

re: #217 Naso Tang

I believe this started with the allegation that Muslims "then" were better than Muslims now (with regard to Jews); whereas in the final analysis, IMHO, "then" was just a different point in the political cycle of pragmatism.

I don't know what 'the political cycle of pragmatism' is, but there are certainly times historically when parts of the Muslim world were better to Jews than they are now.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:22:45pm

re: #225 Buck

OK, I guess I will take "dubious" over "silly".

But there a lot of academic support... if you look for it.

Please cite sources.

260 JeffM70  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:22:49pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

They wanted their ancestral home land returned to them, and Germany was not it, so why would they want it?

261 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:23:38pm

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Umm... I've got no idea, that's why I asked the question.

Are you trying to insinuate that I made that policy decision? My parents hadn't even been born yet when it happened...

I don't think it ever crossed anyone's minds to give the Jews a piece of Germany as part of Holocaust reparations. The only people who seem to think it should have been a good idea are the Palestinians, because everyone knows "they had nothing whatever to do with the Holocaust"

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:23:45pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

Because 'we' were not trying to 'make up' for anything. Jews living in the Middle East declared a Jewish state, with support from other nations.

263 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:24:36pm

re: #256 Aceofwhat?

I think it's a lot easier to armchair quarterback when it wasn't my aunt or uncle who was shredded in the latest blast.

I'm not saying carte blanche. But few organizations are as blatantly and inhumanly disingenuous as Israel's enemies. I stoutly believe that we're kidding ourselves if we think that a good example can be set that those of Hamas' ilk will follow. Rather, this is about what a nation's conscience can endure as it strives to protect its citizens.

Okay then, well my stance is, lets set up some agreed upon rules, and make sure that Israel follows them, which I think you agree with me on.

What those rules are, I'm not exactly sure and I'm in little position to judge at the moment...

264 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:24:45pm

re: #247 Aceofwhat?

(insert comment here about parsecs not being a unit of distance...)

From ye olde Wikipedia, The Book of Parsecs 1:1-4

The parsec (parallax of one arcsecond; symbol: pc) is a unit of length, equal to just under 31 trillion kilometres (about 19 trillion miles), or about 3.26 light-years. The parsec measurement unit is used in astronomy. It is defined as the length of the adjacent side of an imaginary right triangle in space. The two dimensions that specify this triangle are the parallax angle (defined as 1 arcsecond) and the opposite side (which is defined as 1 astronomical unit (AU), the distance from the Earth to the Sun). Given these two measurements, along with the rules of trigonometry, the length of the adjacent side (the parsec) can be found.

So yes it is a unit of distance.

265 freetoken  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:24:59pm

re: #253 RadicalModerate

Here's a good article to understand the Dominionists' belief that a strong Israeli state will cause the Rapture to occur more quickly:

Careful there... many of the central players in "Dominionist" movement in America (Rushdoony, North, etc.) are explicitly not dispensationalists and deride the Evangelical fervor for Israel.

266 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:25:51pm

re: #253 RadicalModerate

Here's a good article to understand the Dominionists' belief that a strong Israeli state will cause the Rapture to occur more quickly:

Jews, Israel, and the Rapture

Dr Singham! I took his physics class at Case! That guy is an absolutely beautiful human being.

267 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:26:12pm

re: #263 jamesfirecat

Okay then, well my stance is, lets set up some agreed upon rules, and make sure that Israel follows them, which I think you agree with me on.

What those rules are, I'm not exactly sure and I'm in little position to judge at the moment...

Would you say that a good rule would be that a nation is allowed to defend itself when attacked?

268 keloyd  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:26:26pm

re: #255 Alouette

You don't know what evangelicals "think" any more than you know what Jews "think." You are not a mind reader.

I can't answer for what evangelicals think, but I can answer for what they say. Half my family fit in that loose category. I've heard countless sermons and clips from Jerry Fallwell types. There is broad concensus that support of Israel => beginning of the End Times => some Jews convert to Christianity, the rest go to hell => end of time. Individual Southern Baptists may just nod in church, then not really give it much thought, so they may not really believe it, but it's the official party line. Bachmann seems to believe every word of it.

269 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:26:38pm

re: #255 Alouette

You don't know what evangelicals "think" any more than you know what Jews "think." You are not a mind reader.

I've had the discussion here about it plenty of times before. Plenty of (mostly former) Lizards held that belief and were fairly open about it.

270 JeffM70  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:27:07pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I figured that much. I'm not religious, so I don't relate to it.

271 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:27:13pm

re: #264 ArchangelMichael

So yes it is a unit of distance.

Yeah of course, everyone should know that just from listening to the Star Wars wankery on the subject.

272 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:27:20pm

Weather Cam from Alta Dena, near our burn areas in SoCal. Dark and brooding.

273 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:27:48pm

Every time I hear someone say how wonderful life was for the Jews and Christians under Islamic rule in Spain I want to beat my head against my desk. The "golden age" lasted the first 200 years or so out of the 700 years Islam ruled Spain. Christians and Jews were restricted in what they were allowed to wear, where and how they would pray, Jews had to wear a badge (sound familiar?), they weren't allowed to carry weapons, there were restrictions on building churches and synagogues, who they could marry, etc, etc...

They were given "rights" because the Muslim rulers didn't have any other choice, they were trying to retain control of an empire. Christians and Jews were thought of as "vile". It's well past time to stop calling the Islamic rule of Spain "The Golden Age".

Here's a nice poem by Abu Ishaq, circa 1066, regarding the jews:


Do not consider it a breach of faith to kill them, the breach of faith would be to let them carry on.
They have violated our covenant with them, so how can you be held guilty against the violators?
How can they have any pact when we are obscure and they are prominent?
Now we are humble, beside them, as if we were wrong and they were right!

Abu Ishaq, 1066

274 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #264 ArchangelMichael

So yes it is a unit of distance.

Sorry, i wrote that poorly. Many believe that a 'parsec' is a unit of time, after having watched Star Wars. I was expecting someone to make that comment.

275 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:28:38pm

re: #271 jamesfirecat

Yeah of course, everyone should know that just from listening to the Star Wars wankery on the subject.

Yeah but Han Solo used it as a measurement of time. Prompting the WTF looks from Obi Wan and Luke at that point.

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:28:55pm

re: #260 JeffM70

They wanted their ancestral home land returned to them, and Germany was not it, so why would they want it?

Also, and this is important, there was a large and long-established Jewish community with roots going back to godknowswhen and expanded by immigration through the ninteenth and early twentieth centuries in Mandate Palestine. People have this idea that 'the Jews' from Europe were 'given' what is obviously 'Arab land', when in fact the Jews were a sizeable minority group that lived, farmed, traded, etc. in the region. Ancestral homelands aside, creating an independent Israel certainly made as much sense as creating, say, an independent Pakistan, or Kurdistan, or Bangladesh.

We're gonna hit all my pet history peeves before the end of the day, aren't we? Come on, someone, say something about Richard III, I dare ya!

277 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:29:59pm

re: #267 reine.de.tout

Would you say that a good rule would be that a nation is allowed to defend itself when attacked?

Yes of course.

Do you think that when a nation is attacked it should be allowed to castrate all the men in the country who attacked it after they've properly defended themselves by conquering the nation that attacked them?

Isn't asking pointless black and white questions fun?

278 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:30:05pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

I've had the discussion here about it plenty of times before. Plenty of (mostly former) Lizards held that belief and were fairly open about it.

I seem to recall you also making many statements about "what Jews think" even though any random two of us can hold three different conflicting opinions.

279 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:30:30pm

re: #275 ArchangelMichael

Yeah but Han Solo used it as a measurement of time. Prompting the WTF looks from Obi Wan and Luke at that point.

Actually, no he didn't. You see, the Kessel Run is through a dense region of black holes. By skirting dangerously close to the edges of these black holes you shave distance off of your journey. So, Solo used it correctly.
:)

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:30:52pm

re: #273 RogueOne

Every time I hear someone say how wonderful life was for the Jews and Christians under Islamic rule in Spain I want to beat my head against my desk. The "golden age" lasted the first 200 years or so out of the 700 years Islam ruled Spain. Christians and Jews were restricted in what they were allowed to wear, where and how they would pray, Jews had to wear a badge (sound familiar?), they weren't allowed to carry weapons, there were restrictions on building churches and synagogues, who they could marry, etc, etc...

They were given "rights" because the Muslim rulers didn't have any other choice, they were trying to retain control of an empire. Christians and Jews were thought of as "vile". It's well past time to stop calling the Islamic rule of Spain "The Golden Age".

Here's a nice poem by Abu Ishaq, circa 1066, regarding the jews:

You know why we remember it as the Golden Age? 'Cause almost everything that came after sucked worse.

281 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:31:02pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist


We're gonna hit all my pet history peeves before the end of the day, aren't we? Come on, someone, say something about Richard III, I dare ya!

Richard the Lion Heart was gay.

/historical fact.

282 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:31:09pm

re: #275 ArchangelMichael

Yeah but Han Solo used it as a measurement of time. Prompting the WTF looks from Obi Wan and Luke at that point.

No he used it as a measurement of distance like its suppose to be used.

[Link: starwars.wikia.com...]

Its just that absent the great context it sounds like a measurement of time.

Which may mean that George Lucas wrote it in the script as a measurement of time, but don't go blaming Han for that!

283 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:31:39pm

re: #268 keloyd

I can't answer for what evangelicals think, but I can answer for what they say. Half my family fit in that loose category. I've heard countless sermons and clips from Jerry Fallwell types. There is broad concensus that support of Israel => beginning of the End Times => some Jews convert to Christianity, the rest go to hell => end of time. Individual Southern Baptists may just nod in church, then not really give it much thought, so they may not really believe it, but it's the official party line. Bachmann seems to believe every word of it.

Ok. I still think you're shaving with Occam's razor.

Israel => birthplace of Judaism => birth of Christianity =>interest.

That's what i encounter, although i don't know many Jerry Falwell types.

284 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:31:44pm

Oh wait that was Richard I.

OK, Richard III was not a hunchback. One side of his body was more developed than the other because of his broadsword expertise.

285 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:32:36pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

The origins of anti-Semitism are not rooted in the Catholic Church, although the Church certainly got a creeper wrapped firmly around it early on. Does that make sense?

Yes it does!

We probably shouldn't be playing the game, "Name the Worst Anti-Semitic Culture!" but what I think is important to point out is that Muslims were not always the enemy of the Jews in the way the are today.

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:32:40pm

re: #281 Alouette

Richard the Lion Heart was gay.

/historical fact.

Good on him. So was Saladin, according to some reports. You do have to wonder...is there a Lost Chapter of Romance somewhere?

287 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:32:47pm

re: #279 Varek Raith

Actually, no he didn't. You see, the Kessel Run is through a dense region of black holes. By skirting dangerously close to the edges of these black holes you shave distance off of your journey. So, Solo used it correctly.
:)

i yield

288 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:33:11pm

re: #279 Varek Raith

Actually, no he didn't. You see, the Kessel Run is through a dense region of black holes. By skirting dangerously close to the edges of these black holes you shave distance off of your journey. So, Solo used it correctly.
:)

Yes according to backpedaling retconning EU authors who didn't get that Solo was talking out of his ass at the time.

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:33:21pm

re: #284 Alouette

Oh wait that was Richard I.

OK, Richard III was not a hunchback. One side of his body was more developed than the other because of his broadsword expertise.

Also true! Very good. (Probably battle axe, actually, he appears to have favored an axe.)

290 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:33:32pm

re: #277 jamesfirecat

Yes of course.

Do you think that when a nation is attacked it should be allowed to castrate all the men in the country who attacked it after they've properly defended themselves by conquering the nation that attacked them?

Isn't asking pointless black and white questions fun?

What?

291 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:33:39pm

re: #278 Alouette

I seem to recall you also making many statements about "what Jews think" even though any random two of us can hold three different conflicting opinions.

So Trout's sin is seamlessly moved from "remembering and citing what many evangelicals say and then acting on it" to "those Jews all think alike."

Outrage generator: ur doin it rite.

292 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:33:45pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

People have had it in for you guys for a loooong time. Keep up the good fight!

293 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:34:22pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know what 'the political cycle of pragmatism' is, but there are certainly times historically when parts of the Muslim world were better to Jews than they are now.

We've said it about 5 times now and he doesn't believe it. What can you do.

294 subsailor68  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:36:05pm

This is an example of what we're going to see more of in the coming months. (I've pasted the entire text, as it is very short.)

Senate jobs bill extends Medicare payment rates

WASHINGTON, Feb 9 (Reuters) - A jobs-creation bill that could pass the Senate this week would delay a scheduled 20 percent reduction in doctor payments under the Medicare health-insurance program, according to a copy of the text obtained by Reuters.

The bill also extends soon-to-expire jobless payments, healthcare subsidies for the unemployed and highway-funding programs, according to the text of the bill, which has not yet been introduced.

The only "jobs" portion of this bill is the highway funding - perhaps. The delay of the 20 percent reduction in Medicare payments, the jobless payments, the "healthcare subsidies" - these are end-runs on the health care legislation that is locked up.

I would hope that those senators behind this have their asses handed to them by CBO (although I'd wager that CBO won't be asked to score this) and the costs included here are added to the health care reform overall estimates.

This is dishonest.

295 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:36:56pm

re: #285 marjoriemoon

Yes it does!

We probably shouldn't be playing the game, "Name the Worst Anti-Semitic Culture!" but what I think is important to point out is that Muslims were not always the enemy of the Jews in the way the are today.

I'm going to save a link to this thread. Lots to learn. Thanks you two for your informational dialog

296 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:37:48pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

Because nothing says ' welcome to your homeland ' like the ghosts of Nazi officers and other memorabilia all around while you are trying to heal.
Then there's that other, historical/ Biblical thing. May be anathema to you, but important to them.

297 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:38:05pm

re: #194 Buck

Leave out the effects of the rules "Dhimmitude" on a society... but ok.

Dhimmitude is preferable to death and torture. This is apparently the case when When you've lived for 100s of years in both.

298 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:38:21pm

re: #277 jamesfirecat

Yes of course.

Do you think that when a nation is attacked it should be allowed to castrate all the men in the country who attacked it after they've properly defended themselves by conquering the nation that attacked them?

Isn't asking pointless black and white questions fun?

WTF?

299 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:38:34pm

Why did the Rambam leave Spain?

300 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:40:26pm

re: #291 torrentprime

or a third-party confirmation of frequently broad brushwork. apparently i like Israel because of some warped version of a Biblical prophecy. who knew?

301 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:41:19pm

re: #299 Ben Hur

Why did the Rambam leave Spain?

So he could get to the other side!

302 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:41:31pm

re: #300 Aceofwhat?

or a third-party confirmation of frequently broad brushwork. apparently i like Israel because of some warped version of a Biblical prophecy. who knew?

Ace,

Really enjoyed and agreed with your comments on this thread. Well done.

303 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:41:36pm

re: #277 jamesfirecat

. ..

Isn't asking pointless black and white questions fun?

This from the guy who asked me yesterday if I would prefer to see people die rather than receive federal health care.

To which idiotic pointless black & white question I simply responded politely.

Sheesh.

304 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:41:38pm

re: #290 reine.de.tout

What?

You asked me what I consider a ridiculous question about if it was okay for one country to defend itself when its attack. Obviously its okay for it to defend itself.

I felt rather irritated by this because I felt like you were trying to box me in or portray me as some kind of pathetic pacifist who feels it better to die than to kill someone defending yourself.

Therefore to show you how foolish I felt your question was I brought up one from the opposite end of the spectrum of "how much slack should we allow Israel" at one end we have "no they can't fight back at all" and at the other end we would be giving leave Israel leave to salt the earth and castrate the males of the nation who attacked them to make sure it happened again.

Obviously the correct attitude lies somewhere in the middle.

305 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:41:56pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

Please cite sources.

I already did one...

And Charles has requested I don't anymore. How hard is it to do a google search for yourself? Only you will be able to know what will satisfy you.

I know this has been talked about for many years. Klaus Gensicke is not some kook.

306 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:42:35pm

re: #304 jamesfirecat

You asked me what I consider a ridiculous question about if it was okay for one country to defend itself when its attack. Obviously its okay for it to defend itself.

I felt rather irritated by this because I felt like you were trying to box me in or portray me as some kind of pathetic pacifist who feels it better to die than to kill someone defending yourself.

Therefore to show you how foolish I felt your question was I brought up one from the opposite end of the spectrum of "how much slack should we allow Israel" at one end we have "no they can't fight back at all" and at the other end we would be giving leave Israel leave to salt the earth and castrate the males of the nation who attacked them to make sure it happened again.

Obviously the correct attitude lies somewhere in the middle.

Well, James.
I felt rather irritated yesterday when you tried to imply I would rather see people die than receive health care.

But I didn't piss all over you, I simply responded.

It was the adult and mature thing to do.
IMO

307 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:42:59pm

re: #288 ArchangelMichael

Yes according to backpedaling retconning EU authors who didn't get that Solo was talking out of his ass at the time.

I know. It is what it is.
:)

It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs! Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation.

So it implies that the puzzling speech of Han Solo is a "misinformation" and not truth, and it has nothing to do with the nature of the Kessel Run in any respect. Han means nothing other than impressing Obi-Wan and Luke with a pure boasting. Indeed, even in the final version of the script, the parenthesis attached to Han's line states that he is "obviously lying."

In the commentary for Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope DVD, George Lucas mentions that the parsecs are due to the Millennium Falcon's advanced navigational computer rather than its engines, so the navicomputer would calculate much faster routes than other ships could.

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:44:12pm

re: #34 Silvergirl

"Do you think you're making your father proud?"

The lowest.

He's gotten that more than once on these talking head shows.

309 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:44:29pm

re: #307 Varek Raith

I bow to the geek factor apparent in your interest in this movie trivia.

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:44:59pm

re: #293 marjoriemoon

We've said it about 5 times now and he doesn't believe it. What can you do.

Keep arguing. Medieval/Renaissance Jewish history is one of my very favorite things.

311 prairiefire  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:45:22pm

I remember seeing video posted of Pammy where she is drunk, sitting in somebody's bathroom at a party, and going through their medicine cabinet.
Anybody else remember that?

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:45:45pm

re: #296 tradewind

Because nothing says ' welcome to your homeland ' like the ghosts of Nazi officers and other memorabilia all around while you are trying to heal.
Then there's that other, historical/ Biblical thing. May be anathema to you, but important to them.

Not to mention the aforesaid established community, and the fact that most of the world's surviving Jews were in the Middle East.

313 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:46:09pm

re: #303 reine.de.tout

This from the guy who asked me yesterday if I would prefer to see people die rather than receive federal health care.

To which idiotic pointless black & white question I simply responded politely.

Sheesh.

Idiotic? Was there a part of the GOP health plan I missed that somehow addressed this real-live situation? Given that we know there are deaths in this country from lack of insurance (the best response from the right was to dispute the number, fewer deaths being ok I guess) and that the GOP has offered no a three-page plan to fix this, what part of the policy choice is unfair? We are facing that situation and no one from the right has offered anything to fix it. Was there a better option on the table?

314 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:46:17pm

re: #297 marjoriemoon

Dhimmitude is preferable to death and torture. This is apparently the case when When you've lived for 100s of years in both.

Well, maybe.... Certainly most of the Arab and muslim countries think so. The people there would much rather live as second class citizens ruled by tyranny in despair and radicalism than seek freedom.

It isn't really working for them though.

Personally I would prefer death.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:46:20pm

re: #299 Ben Hur

Why did the Rambam leave Spain?

Persecution by...heck, is that the Alomohades?

Where did he go?

316 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:46:43pm

re: #311 prairiefire

I remember seeing video posted of Pammy where she is drunk, sitting in somebody's bathroom at a party, and going through their medicine cabinet.
Anybody else remember that?

I saw that video.
Also saw the one of Pammie lolling about at the beach in a teensy bikini while her kids swam a bit offshore, and she talked to the camera about something or other.

Also saw that really really weird one where she made her 2 daughters do some sort of song thing with her They looked miserable.

317 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:47:19pm

re: #309 rwdflynavy

I bow to the geek factor apparent in your interest in this movie trivia.

Heh, I argued the hell out of that one in high school. Lucas is good at throwing nonsense out there. In episode 4 parsecs = time. That isn't true but, that didn't stop Lucas! Later on this was retconned to reflect reality. I go for the newer explanation.
Great fun!
:)

318 SteveC  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:48:04pm
...rants continuously like a howler monkey on crack

Either that woman caused me to have a serious brain cramp or I'm about to stroke out.

I've know I've got some Percoset left over from when I fell down the steps last year, where are they? Ahh... come to poppa, my little slices of chemical heaven!

319 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:48:19pm

re: #224 tradewind

Not my original idea. [Link: www.slate.com...]
[Link: www.bvblackspin.com...]
[Link: www.politicsdaily.com...]
Just a few, with right-leaning sites avoided for purity//.


Not that I agree, but thanks for responding to me.

320 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:48:32pm

re: #55 Charles

The idea that German antisemitism was imported from the Islamic world simply ignores the long, long history of antisemitism in Europe and the Germanic region in particular. Europe didn't need to "import" antisemitism from anywhere, it was part of the social fabric for MANY centuries.

Please don't start this here. It's beyond silly.

German antisemitism is one instance of a pattern that emerges in history: middleman ethnic/religious populations come in for a lot of grief at the hands of a less-well-educated majority population. This is Thomas Sowell's observation, and he gives as further examples the treatment of the ethnically Chinese, non-Muslim populations in Indonesia and Malaysia, of ethnically Indian [subcontinent] minorities in Uganda, and so on. Discriminatory legislation is just the tip of this iceberg, and we even see forms of that in the U.S. with university and medical school rules and practices made for the express and declared purpose of limiting the fraction of Asians admitted to state universities/medical schools in California.

But in these other cases, things are taken to far worse extremes, with what can only be termed pogroms and in some instances state-encouraged mass murder campaigns. None of all that reaching the words-fail-to-describe transcendent evil of Hitler and his schemes.

The historical background of that was, up until the establishment of concentration camps, a reasonably close fit to the worldwide and centuries long pattern of discrimination which is seen wherever people who look different and act different get ahead (out of all proportion to their numbers) in the world of finance and business and related fields of endeavor via some mix of native wit and diligent application.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:49:09pm

re: #305 Buck

I already did one...

And Charles has requested I don't anymore. How hard is it to do a google search for yourself? Only you will be able to know what will satisfy you.

I know this has been talked about for many years. Klaus Gensicke is not some kook.

Klaus Gensicke says that the Muslims were influenced by, rather than influencing, the Nazis. Do you disagree with him?

322 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:49:11pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Persecution by...heck, is that the Alomohades?

Where did he go?

To Fez.

Why do you think he left Fez for Eretz Israel?

323 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:49:41pm

re: #306 reine.de.tout

Well, James.
I felt rather irritated yesterday when you tried to imply I would rather see people die than receive health care.

But I didn't piss all over you, I simply responded.

It was the adult and mature thing to do.
IMO

I had simply misunderstood what you said with the statement.

""I honestly don't care how it happens, as long as the care is available, and the feds are NOT involved. It can be done."

Which to left the door open to "what if it becomes an either or issue, which side would you come down on?"

What have I said in this that made you feel justified in jumping to the conclusion that I don't believe Israel should be allowed to defend itself.

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:49:46pm

re: #311 prairiefire

I remember seeing video posted of Pammy where she is drunk, sitting in somebody's bathroom at a party, and going through their medicine cabinet.
Anybody else remember that?

When you need a Q-Tip, you NEED a Q-Tip.

325 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:50:04pm

Pamela Geller's specialty;

Wail of the Banshee
Necromancy [Death, Sonic]
Level: Death 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: One living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You emit a terrible scream that kills creatures that hear it (except for yourself). Creatures closest to the point of origin are affected first.

Forgive my geekiness today! :)

326 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:50:35pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Persecution by...heck, is that the Alomohades?

Where did he go?

Egypt.

327 Ben Hur  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:50:36pm

re: #325 Varek Raith

Pamela Geller's specialty;

Forgive my geekiness today! :)

LOL!

That sh*t is funny!

Gotta go!

328 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:50:46pm

re: #313 torrentprime

Idiotic? Was there a part of the GOP health plan I missed that somehow addressed this real-live situation? Given that we know there are deaths in this country from lack of insurance (the best response from the right was to dispute the number, fewer deaths being ok I guess) and that the GOP has offered no a three-page plan to fix this, what part of the policy choice is unfair? We are facing that situation and no one from the right has offered anything to fix it. Was there a better option on the table?

In the context of the conversation we were having the question was idiotic.
I did indeed present an alternative suggestion, based on state-run (rather than federal run) programs to care for the indigent and uninsured. I happen to hold the view that states can develop their own programs to handle this situation without massive federal legislation being required.

James seemed to believe that this somehow meant I wanted people to die rather than get care. How he got there from what I said, I don't know. But he asked the stupid idiotic question intended to box me in as some sort of heartless GOPer, and I responded civilly. Not with an idiotic question of my own.

Got it?

329 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:50:50pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

...snip...

We're gonna hit all my pet history peeves before the end of the day, aren't we? Come on, someone, say something about Richard III, I dare ya!

Not much of a horseman.

330 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #314 Buck

Well, maybe... Certainly most of the Arab and muslim countries think so. The people there would much rather live as second class citizens ruled by tyranny in despair and radicalism than seek freedom.

It isn't really working for them though.

Personally I would prefer death.

We've been talking about premodern Jewish communities. How would you suggest that they should have sought freedom, except by going where circumstances were best, and preserving their own cultures?

331 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:51:02pm

re: #313 torrentprime

and that the GOP has offered no a three-page plan to fix this, what part of the policy choice is unfair? We are facing that situation and no one from the right has offered anything to fix it. Was there a better option on the table?

And their "plan" would save less money.

332 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:52:00pm

re: #323 jamesfirecat

I had simply misunderstood what you said with the statement.

""I honestly don't care how it happens, as long as the care is available, and the feds are NOT involved. It can be done."

Which to left the door open to "what if it becomes an either or issue, which side would you come down on?"

What have I said in this that made you feel justified in jumping to the conclusion that I don't believe Israel should be allowed to defend itself.

James.
I'm not getting into that discussion with you again.
Bottom line - I made the assumption yesterday that i simply needed to explain myself to you and I did.

You did not give me the same courtesy today, but made the assumption today that you needed to be an ass. So you were.

End of conversation.

333 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:53:36pm

re: #270 JeffM70

Since you mention it, neither do a lot of people of faith.
Many (probably most) Christians have no such view of Israel.... rather appreciating and respecting them as a nation because we have a higher example that shows them in that light.

334 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:53:59pm

re: #328 reine.de.tout

In the context of the conversation we were having the question was idiotic.
I did indeed present an alternative suggestion, based on state-run (rather than federal run) programs to care for the indigent and uninsured. I happen to hold the view that states can develop their own programs to handle this situation without massive federal legislation being required.

James seemed to believe that this somehow meant I wanted people to die rather than get care. How he got there from what I said, I don't know. But he asked the stupid idiotic question intended to box me in as some sort of heartless GOPer, and I responded civilly. Not with an idiotic question of my own.

Got it?

Yup. I disagree, of course, since the pursuit of the 50-state-plans unicorn doesn't seem all that likely to be successful (read: never gonna happen), and since it's still the govmint doing the insuring, I don't understand how this makes small government advocates happy, but there's nothing immediately inconsistent with the view that I can see.

335 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:54:12pm

re: #322 Ben Hur

To Fez.

Why do you think he left Fez for Eretz Israel?

Why do you think he left Eretz Yisrael for Egypt?

More precisely, what do you think you're proving here? That there was persecution of Jewish communities in the medieval Muslim world? Of course there was. But there's a difference between acknowledging that and swallowing revisionist history where the good of the Muslim world and the bad of the Christian is ignored.

336 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:54:42pm

Afternoon lizards...

337 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:55:53pm

re: #244 jamesfirecat

Who are these "serious right wing pundits" of which you speak?

Well I am not here to defend right wing pundits. However if I must name one who I believe is rational and of sound mind (though often wrong IMHO) I would name Bill Kristol. Again. Not here to defend him except in so far as saying I believe him to be "serious".

338 Decatur Deb  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:56:43pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Persecution by...heck, is that the Alomohades?

Where did he go?

Did he settle in Sfad?

339 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:56:48pm

re: #337 Petero1818

Well I am not here to defend right wing pundits. However if I must name one who I believe is rational and of sound mind (though often wrong IMHO) I would name Bill Kristol. Again. Not here to defend him except in so far as saying I believe him to be "serious".

I don't recall anything totally insane he's done off the top of my head...she said cautiously, fearful that one of the other Lizards would instantly remind her.

340 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:57:49pm

BBL folks, if not, enjoy your evening.

341 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:58:15pm

President Obama whacks John Boehner's pee-pee (forgive the Cheech & Chong reference)
snippet:

According to aides familiar with the discussion, Boehner made the case that long-term concern over Dem policies — health care, cap and trade — was leading to uncertainty in the private sector, damaging job creation efforts. Boehner said the only way to get the economy moving again is to put these issues behind us.

That apparently irked the President, aides say, who accused Boehner of just wanting to kill all his initiatives. Boehner shot back that this was false, that Republicans are serious about bipartisan cooperation.

That prompted the President to push back again, aides say, arguing that the White House isn’t getting enough credit for the part of the stimulus that boosts federal funding for state Medicaid programs, arguing it has had a positive effect on the economy.



And yes, Republicans apparently agree that the stimulus has been working...at least privately.

342 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:58:37pm

re: #334 torrentprime

Yup. I disagree, of course, since the pursuit of the 50-state-plans unicorn doesn't seem all that likely to be successful (read: never gonna happen), and since it's still the govmint doing the insuring, I don't understand how this makes small government advocates happy, but there's nothing immediately inconsistent with the view that I can see.

re: #334 torrentprime

Yup. I disagree, of course, since the pursuit of the 50-state-plans unicorn doesn't seem all that likely to be successful (read: never gonna happen), and since it's still the govmint doing the insuring, I don't understand how this makes small government advocates happy, but there's nothing immediately inconsistent with the view that I can see.

Well, of course several folks disagreed with me and that's fine.

Here is the website of Louisiana's charity hospital system that provides care, including clinic care and preventive services, to the uninsured and indigent of our state. Somehow this works without breaking the bank. This is the system I was suggesting could be looked at.

343 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:58:37pm

re: #339 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't recall anything totally insane he's done off the top of my head...she said cautiously, fearful that one of the other Lizards would instantly remind her.

he's a douchebag, but he's never said anything insane that i can remember. :D

344 Sacred Plants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:59:27pm

re: #73 Buck

However, if this is a completely forbidden discussion, I will respect that.

Just don´t mention the Armenian genocide...

/throws book at Geller

345 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:02:43pm

re: #341 darthstar

Privately admit it's working - or that they're simply hoping to glom on to the gravy train and bring home pork so that they can crow to their constituents that they got their cut? That's the whole point of pork - which the stimulus package is - an attempt to throw massive amounts of money around on projects large and small - many of which are undeserving when put to a cost-benefit analysis, but which get funded because the local politicians deem it necessary:

Mr. Bond was not alone. More than a dozen Republican lawmakers, while denouncing the stimulus to the media and their constituents, privately sent letters to just one of the federal government's many agencies seeking stimulus money for home-state pork projects.

The letters to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, expose the gulf between lawmakers' public criticism of the overall stimulus package and their private lobbying for projects close to home.

"It's not illegal to talk out of both sides of your mouth, but it does seem to be a level of dishonesty troubling to the American public," said Melanie Sloan, executive director of the watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.

In a letter to Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, Mr. Bond noted that one project applying to the USDA for stimulus money would "create jobs and ultimately spur economic opportunities."

Of course that's how he'd frame a request for money. He's not going to write for his cut of the pork by saying that there's no chance it will do anything?

It's typical politics.

The dishonesty is typical politics.

346 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:02:59pm

re: #341 darthstar
Seriously??

with Obama charging that the GOP is just out to kill all his initiatives.


More whining. ' They won't play with me'.
Yeah, some whack on the ole' pee-pee.

348 lostlakehiker  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:03:29pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

And what is wrong with Jews having de-jure control of the land that was historically Israel and that, at the time of independence, was majority Jewish and still is?

Who could imagine that a Jewish nation consisting of, oh, say, the territory that had been the German enclave of East Prussia during the time between WWI and WWII, would endure? Sooner or later, and probably sooner, the Germans, or the Russians, or both, would have done to that "Israel" what they did, repeatedly, to Poland.

Putting Israel in what had been called the Rhineland would hardly have been more likely to work. That land is historically German. It figures in myth and poem. And if it's not German, it's French; Charlemagne's Empire was centered on Aachen, in the Rhineland.

At least, with Israel in Israel, it doesn't sit astride historic routes of invasion used by modern superpowers. The Arabs have nothing to gain, and much to lose, by the destruction of Israel. Their only reason for hating it is that it's a living example to them of how much they could do with their own land if not for their own deficiencies.

When they think ahead to how things will be once they win, assuming as they sometimes do that this is possible, all they can expect is that "Palestine" will be like Gaza only bigger, poorer, and sandier.

349 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:04:58pm

"She did not quit. The lower 48 needed her and she heeded the call, she did not take the easy way out... she came to lead the next revolution".

Laughing my ass off here. I couldn't write comedy like that if I tried.

350 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:05:54pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

Klaus Gensicke says that the Muslims were influenced by, rather than influencing, the Nazis. Do you disagree with him?

I don't know what you are reading.

Gensicke volume also provides considerable support for the thesis that, so to say, “native” Islamic sources of anti-Semitism are primordial in Muslim or Arab anti-Semitism. At the very least, Gensicke’s account shows the relation between the mufti and the Nazis to have been very much a two-way street: even — or indeed especially — as concerns the notorious “Jewish Question.”

perhaps the most shocking finding of Gensicke’s research concerns the repeated efforts of the mufti after 1943 to ensure that no European Jews should elude the camps:

Look, I am actually scared of being banned for even discussing this. I am not excusing Hitler, or Himmler. I am saying that there is a lot of documentation that shows the Mufti held a huge influence, and MIGHT have "hardened the pharohs heart" on more than one occasion.

I actually feel sick about this. I DON'T want to discuss this anymore.

351 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:07:36pm

re: #341 darthstar


Here's the over-sensitivity at work.

Boehner said the only way
to get the economy moving again is to put these issues behind us.
That apparently irked the President, aides say, who accused Boehner of just wanting to kill all his initiatives.
352 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:07:43pm

re: #349 Slumbering Behemoth

"She did not quit. The lower 48 needed her and she heeded the call, she did not take the easy way out... she came to lead the next revolution".

Laughing my ass off here. I couldn't write comedy like that if I tried.

She says she wants a revolution

353 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:08:10pm

re: #341 darthstar

President Obama whacks John Boehner's pee-pee (forgive the Cheech & Chong reference)
snippet:



And yes, Republicans apparently agree that the stimulus has been working...at least privately.

If they don't think its working why would they be having those photo-ops where they're handing out checks?

Mr. Jindal would you care to comment?

354 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:10:35pm

re: #353 jamesfirecat

If they don't think its working why would they be having those photo-ops where they're handing out checks?

Mr. Jindal would you care to comment?

Because the citizens are often as dishonest as the politicians. We don't want anyone else to get pork, but we're happy when the local guy brings in some stimulus money.

Are you saying that if one disagrees with the efficacy of the stimulus, one is obligated to refuse any and all related funds? I would hope not.

355 tradewind  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:10:42pm

Later, ya'll. Play nice... I hate it when I miss a meltdown
(and I always miss 'em).

356 RadicalModerate  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:11:14pm

re: #265 freetoken

Careful there... many of the central players in "Dominionist" movement in America (Rushdoony, North, etc.) are explicitly not dispensationalists and deride the Evangelical fervor for Israel.

Rushdoony and North?

I'd have to say that in the case of Rushdoony, those beliefs spring more from his unrepentant racist beliefs (not to mention that he was a Holocaust denier). North, his son-in-law, is a fervent follower in RJ's footsteps.

357 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:12:17pm

re: #232 JeffM70

I simply don't understand this obsession the far right has with Israel. It's almost as if the United States has to subordinate its interests to those of Israel's, at least in instances where there is a disagreement.

Wow... Um, how is that accomplished? "The Israel Lobby"?

358 ShaunP  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:13:57pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Are you saying that if one disagrees with the efficacy of the stimulus, one is obligated to refuse any and all related funds? I would hope not.

IMO, it is hypocritical to rail against the stimulus as a waste of money and ineffective and then take some of said "waste of money" to improve the situation in your own district...

359 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:13:58pm

Damn. The Palinmania is just as misguided, uniformed and delusional as all that "Obama The Lightworker" crap prior to the election. Pathetic.

360 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:14:20pm

re: #351 tradewind

Here's the over-sensitivity at work.

It is more about calling Boehner and McConnell out on their bull shit.

361 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:16:43pm

I am just a worthless liar
I am just an imbecile
I will only complicate you
Trust in me and fall as well
I will find a center in you
I will chew it up and leave

362 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:16:53pm

re: #344 Sacred Plants

Just don´t mention the Armenian genocide...

/throws book at Geller

Geller has something to say about the Armenian genocide?

363 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:17:02pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Because the citizens are often as dishonest as the politicians. We don't want anyone else to get pork, but we're happy when the local guy brings in some stimulus money.

Are you saying that if one disagrees with the efficacy of the stimulus, one is obligated to refuse any and all related funds? I would hope not.

No, but I do believe that its incredibly dishonest to vote AGAINST the stimulus bill and then show up all balloons and photo-ops like you actually did something to bring these people that money instead of trying to keep them from getting it.

364 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #299 Ben Hur

Why did the Rambam leave Spain?

I don't believe it was his choice. Was that your point? lol

365 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:17:26pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

Are you kidding with that?

You know that is an almost direct quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

Something like “If you, Germany and Austria, oppressed the Jews so, give a part of Europe to the Zionist regime."

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:17:57pm

re: #347 PT Barnum

I think holding up Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin as example sof what the electorate should aspire to qualifies as insane.

Oh, everyone was doing that back then. Seriously.

And poor Kathleen Parker got clobbered when she broke from the pack.

367 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:18:22pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, everyone was doing that back then. Seriously.

And poor Kathleen Parker got clobbered when she broke from the pack.

Doesn't mean it wasn't batshit insane...:)

368 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:18:38pm

re: #351 tradewind

Here's the over-sensitivity at work.

Oversensitivity? Right. The GOP is simply calling for the Ds to surrender on nearly every major crisis facing this country (health care, environmental threats, etc.) and return to the (lack of) attention the GOP was showing these issues. That's perfectly reasonable, right?

369 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:18:42pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Because the citizens are often as dishonest as the politicians. We don't want anyone else to get pork, but we're happy when the local guy brings in some stimulus money.


Everyone knows that the other guys stuff is shit, but your shit is stuff.

370 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:18:50pm

re: #350 Buck

Hardened the heart of the Pharaoh? You're seriously comparing Hitler to the Pharaoh? I don't think you know what that comparison implies, and I don't think you should use Jewish religious imagery so casually.

In addition, what you're saying does indeed remove some of the blame from the European antisemitism and place it in the middle east. It's as foolish as blaming Hitler's mysticism for his antisemitism, instead of saying that he looked to mysticism for support for his antisemitism.

If you're genuinely interested, I suggest [Link: www.axishistory.com...] for a great source of research of the motivations and mechanisms of Nazi antisemitism.

371 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:19:31pm

Here's some good news that will make McCain's head explode:

The army got one of its Arabic translators - Dan Choi - back

372 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:19:45pm

re: #358 ShaunP

IMO, it is hypocritical to rail against the stimulus as a waste of money and ineffective and then take some of said "waste of money" to improve the situation in your own district...

so, for all practical purposes, you're either for the stimulus and you get some or you're against it and you get none. how is that not outright bribery again?

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:20:02pm

re: #348 lostlakehiker

they think ahead to how things will be once they win, assuming as they sometimes do that this is possible, all they can expect is that "Palestine" will be like Gaza only bigger, poorer, and sandier.

When the intifada was in swing, I kept thinking of that. How excited, how idealistic the chalutzniks were. Young Palestinians are being given a situation in which the best thing they can achieve is a cut-rate Syria.

A cut-rate Syria ain't much.

374 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:20:07pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, everyone was doing that back then. Seriously.

And poor Kathleen Parker got clobbered when she broke from the pack.

Remember how much trouble Peggy Noonan got into when she was heard over an open mike saying that Palin was just a joke?

Insanity can be shared, you know.

375 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:20:39pm

re: #361 cliffster

tool, baby.

376 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:20:41pm

To the Lizard known as Buck:

Judensau (German for "Jews' sow") is a derogatory and dehumanizing image of Jews in obscene contact with a large sow (female pig), which in Judaism is an unclean animal, that appeared during the 13th century in Germany and some other European countries. Its popularity lasted for over 600 years and was revived by the Nazis.

Just sayin'.

377 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:20:43pm

re: #316 reine.de.tout

I saw that video.
Also saw the one of Pammie lolling about at the beach in a teensy bikini while her kids swam a bit offshore, and she talked to the camera about something or other.

Also saw that really really weird one where she made her 2 daughters do some sort of song thing with her They looked miserable.

Somewhere right here at LGF are comments by her telling of some previous husband who drank himself to death. Can't remember if they were still married when he did that.

378 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:20:47pm

re: #371 darthstar

Here's some good news that will make McCain's head explode:

The army got one of its Arabic translators - Dan Choi - back

How dare they not ask his permission first....
/

379 ryannon  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:21:39pm

re: #116 jamesfirecat

"The first moral government in the history of man."

Wow... really?

So the Greeks who came up with the idea of democracy to start with don't count?

Maybe it was because they weren't Christian, weren't even Judeo-Christian, weren't even Monotheistic...

And they was all the time buggering each other.

380 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:21:41pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

Interesting, do you realise that you are paraphrasing Ahmadinejad?

381 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:22:00pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

Because the citizens are often as dishonest as the politicians. We don't want anyone else to get pork, but we're happy when the local guy brings in some stimulus money.

Are you saying that if one disagrees with the efficacy of the stimulus, one is obligated to refuse any and all related funds? I would hope not.

"disagree with the efficacy"? Are you trying to portray the GOP's objections to "porkulus" and "the rape of our grandchildren's future" as a disagreement over "efficacy"? When one opposes a bill as devastating and harmful to the country, Yes, one is a hypocrite for then taking photo ops showing the distribution of the proceeds.

382 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:22:36pm

re: #232 JeffM70

I simply don't understand this obsession the far right has with Israel. It's almost as if the United States has to subordinate its interests to those of Israel's, at least in instances where there is a disagreement.

I wonder if you could elaborate on that. Could you provide examples of when the US subordinated its own interests to those of Israel on a point of disagreement.

383 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:22:57pm

re: #371 darthstar

Here's some good news that will make McCain's head explode:

The army got one of its Arabic translators - Dan Choi - back

That's cool!

Choi said his commander called him personally, asking him to return.

They asked, and he's tellin' 'em--Yes!

384 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:23:05pm

re: #365 Buck

Are you kidding with that?

You know that is an almost direct quote from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

Something like “If you, Germany and Austria, oppressed the Jews so, give a part of Europe to the Zionist regime."

Well even a stopped cuckoo clock is right twice every day.

I'm not saying that anything should be done about it now, (whoops it looks like there was a zoning violation involved, we're gonna need you folks to move your country a few hundred miles) I'm just trying to understand the greater historical context of why the decision was made.

From what I've heard so far the main thrust of the argument seems to be that this particular location in the middle east is where the Jews wanted to set up shop which is why we let them do it. Which makes sense, though have you heard the one about how you know God has a sense of humor? He lead the Jews through the desert for 40 years to the one place in the Middle East without any oil.

Damn you Middle East, why must all your religious landmarks, be so close, together! (Imagine said in the same voice as Homer Simpson "Why must I fail, at every, attempt at, masonry!)

385 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:23:22pm

re: #363 jamesfirecat

No, but I do believe that its incredibly dishonest to vote AGAINST the stimulus bill and then show up all balloons and photo-ops like you actually did something to bring these people that money instead of trying to keep them from getting it.

you're mixing. one can logically say "i disagree with this stimulus bill" and "my state can make better use of this $ than any other state" without contradicting oneself.

in the first instance, it's a vote for or against the stimulus. once that question is moot, why would a politician not do their best for their state?

386 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:24:07pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

And you know what? Israel is NOT because someone is trying to make up for the holocaust. That is the Arab/muslim history lesson.

It is also the history Obama recited in Egypt, so I don't really blame you for not knowing about Zionism. Please look it up and read about Theodor Herzl.

387 prairiefire  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:24:47pm

re: #383 wrenchwench

Great news! We need his service.

388 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:25:07pm

re: #383 wrenchwench

They asked, and he's tellin' 'em--Yes!

Hopefully, this will be the first step in repealing DADT. Next, just to piss off Duncan Hunter, they should recruit some hermaphrodites.

389 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:25:23pm

re: #380 Bagua

Interesting, do you realise that you are paraphrasing Ahmadinejad?

Er moet maar een joodse staat komen op Duits en Oostenrijks grondgebied, als deze landen zich verantwoordelijk voeren voor de massamoord op de joden tijdens de Tweede Wereldoorlog. 'Als jullie vinden dat de joden zijn onderdrukt, waarom moeten de Palestijnse moslims daar een prijs voor betalen?'

There should be only a Jewish state on German and Austrian territory, as these countries implement responsible for the massacre of Jews during the Second World War. "If you find that the Jews were oppressed, why should the Palestinian Muslims as a price to pay?"

Ahmadinejad Dec 8 2005

390 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:25:23pm

re: #381 torrentprime

"disagree with the efficacy"? Are you trying to portray the GOP's objections to "porkulus" and "the rape of our grandchildren's future" as a disagreement over "efficacy"? When one opposes a bill as devastating and harmful to the country, Yes, one is a hypocrite for then taking photo ops showing the distribution of the proceeds.

the alternative is bribery, by saying that only those who agreed with the stimulus can partake. that may not be what you mean to say, but it's what you're saying. just saying.

391 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:26:04pm

re: #361 cliffster

Ah, but do you wait like a stalking butler?
/not a 'stalker' reference, btw

392 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:26:13pm

re: #365 Buck

GMTA

393 webevintage  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:26:14pm

re: #368 torrentprime

Oversensitivity? Right. The GOP is simply calling for the Ds to surrender on nearly every major crisis facing this country (health care, environmental threats, etc.) and return to the (lack of) attention the GOP was showing these issues. That's perfectly reasonable, right?

Fed up is more like it, I'm not sure why he's even making an effort to talk to them.
Boehner and McConnell will pretend to get along and then once the Dems say "sure. we'll do that" they will just move the fucking goalposts again.

394 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:26:26pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?

the alternative is bribery, by saying that only those who agreed with the stimulus can partake. that may not be what you mean to say, but it's what you're saying. just saying.

I think those that disagreed and took the money should have the good grace to quit telling people it didn't work, at least.

395 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:26:40pm

Drudge is linking to antisemite truther Alex Jones in his headlines again. the headline "SHOCK CLAIM: Naked Body Scanner Images Of Film Star Printed, Circulated By Airport Staff... " in red letters goes to the conspiracy site infowars. Alex Jones is being mainstreamed.

396 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:04pm

re: #393 webevintage

Fed up is more like it, I'm not sure why he's even making an effort to talk to them.
Boehner and McConnell will pretend to get along and then once the Dems say "sure. we'll do that" they will just move the fucking goalposts again.

They must be using my ex wife as a consultant...

397 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #375 Aceofwhat?

tool, baby.

fuckin A

398 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:16pm

re: #384 jamesfirecat

why we let them do it

Ever heard of the Balfour Doctrine?

399 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:18pm

re: #384 jamesfirecat

Well even a stopped cuckoo clock is right twice every day.

You are saying that Ahmadinejad is correct?

400 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:30pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Drudge is linking to antisemite truther Alex Jones in his headlines again. the headline "SHOCK CLAIM: Naked Body Scanner Images Of Film Star Printed, Circulated By Airport Staff... " in red letters goes to the conspiracy site infowars. Alex Jones is being mainstreamed.

*Galaxy shocking Facepalm*

401 darthstar  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:47pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?

the alternative is bribery, by saying that only those who agreed with the stimulus can partake. that may not be what you mean to say, but it's what you're saying. just saying.

The alternative is to have them say, "I voted against this project which will bring X jobs to our community, but apparently I was wrong in doing so." and not let them take credit for it.

402 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:28:20pm

re: #398 MandyManners

Ever heard of the Balfour Doctrine AGREEMENT?

403 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:28:23pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Drudge is linking to antisemite truther Alex Jones in his headlines again. the headline "SHOCK CLAIM: Naked Body Scanner Images Of Film Star Printed, Circulated By Airport Staff... " in red letters goes to the conspiracy site infowars. Alex Jones is being mainstreamed.

Either that, or Drudge is being sidestreamed, right down the drain.

/dreaming....

404 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:28:42pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

What I never got about Israel is if we were trying to make up for the horrors of the holocaust, why we didn't just give them a part of Germany...

Perhaps if you were to study European and middle eastern history of the 19th and 20th centuries you would better understand it. Don't come here and ask others to be accepting of your lack of informed perspective on these issues.

405 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:29:14pm

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

Ah, but do you wait like a stalking butler?
/not a 'stalker' reference, btw

Little did you know, but cliffster is the shadow just behind SB

406 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:29:23pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Drudge is linking to antisemite truther Alex Jones in his headlines again. the headline "SHOCK CLAIM: Naked Body Scanner Images Of Film Star Printed, Circulated By Airport Staff... "

Unfortunately, they were of Mo'Nique

407 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:29:33pm

re: #385 Aceofwhat?

you're mixing. one can logically say "i disagree with this stimulus bill" and "my state can make better use of this $ than any other state" without contradicting oneself.

in the first instance, it's a vote for or against the stimulus. once that question is moot, why would a politician not do their best for their state?

Doesn't that mean admitting the stimulus would help their state?

So that stimulus Porkulus bill which would "bankrupt the country", "not create one new job", "violate the Constitution" and "bring socialism to America" should, after it passes, be embraced and funds taken - with credit going to the Rep - because s/he believes his/her own state can do the above things better than the other states. Logical.

408 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:29:44pm

re: #405 cliffster

Little did you know, but cliffster is the shadow just behind SB

...even when SB's nekkid?????
/:P

409 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:30:22pm

re: #406 PT Barnum

Unfortunately, they were of Mo'Nique

And before anybody gives me crap about making a fat joke...I tip 374

410 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:30:29pm

re: #400 Varek Raith

I suspect that this is Breitbart's influence on Drudge. Drudge report added Alex Jones to his blogroll a few months ago. Not a single right wing blog complained. Now Drudge is getting news stories from Alex Jones. Even Rush Limbaugh linked Alex Jones on a global warming story about 2 months ago.

411 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:31:05pm

re: #380 Bagua

Interesting, do you realise that you are paraphrasing Ahmadinejad?

So by your logic it'd be fair to say

"Do you realize that when you're talking about how we need to limit abortion you're paraphrasing Hitler?"

412 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:31:17pm

re: #408 Varek Raith

Especially then. You didn't think I was really hung like that, did you? That's just extra shadow.

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:31:38pm

re: #350 Buck

Look, I am actually scared of being banned for even discussing this. I am not excusing Hitler, or Himmler. I am saying that there is a lot of documentation that shows the Mufti held a huge influence, and MIGHT have "hardened the pharohs heart" on more than one occasion.

I actually feel sick about this. I DON'T want to discuss this anymore.

I don't want you to feel sick, or to feel that this is out of bounds. Let me explain:

What I'm reading is this: The central thesis of Küntzel’s book is that anti-Semitism — or, more precisely, modern anti-Semitism as crystallized in the “Jewish world conspiracy” theory — was largely imported into the Muslim world from Nazi Germany.

That's a rational, and very interesting thesis. It also sounds as though Kuntzel explores the back-and-forth exchange of ideas between the Mufti and the Reich, which we know to have taken place. It sounds as though he also explores the traditional roots of Muslim anti-Semitism.

Here's what he does not say, and Pam Geller does: the the Mufti 'may, in fact' have created the concept of the Final Solution. He also does not say that Nazi anti-Semitism was a Middle Eastern import.

Those two things are silly, they're beyond the bounds of what scholars know and can reasonably argue.

Beyond that, it's a fascinating subject. I am only very careful about this sort of thing because it does not stand alone, promoting ideas like Pam's is part of a particular school of historical revisionism that I cannot abide, and find quite dangerous.

I do not think you are arguing in bad faith, or saying things that are impermissable, but I think you've missed the difference between work like Kuntzel's, and 'work' like Pam's.

414 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:31:55pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?

the alternative is bribery, by saying that only those who agreed with the stimulus can partake.

Sorry, this is a lie.

No one said "only those who agreed can partake." I'm (don't use "we", torrent, don't use "we") saying, "anyone who opposed and demonized the bill is hypocritical for then taking the money and the PR credit for its effects." Your thoughts on that?

415 Varek Raith  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:32:02pm

re: #410 Killgore Trout

Wow, I never dreamed that Jones could be mainstreamed to this degree...

416 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:33:05pm

re: #384 jamesfirecat

Well even a stopped cuckoo clock is right twice every day.

{snip}
From what I've heard so far the main thrust of the argument seems to be that this particular location in the middle east is where the Jews wanted to set up shop which is why we let them do it.

I don't know what to say.... I am surprised this is what you understood. "the jews wanted that, so we let them".

There have been jews in Israel for at least 3000 years. King David? You might have heard about his run in with Goliath? A Jew.

King Solomon... the one they call wise because he knew how to settle an argument over a baby with just showing a sword... A Jew.

Jesus Christ? A jew.

In 1880's, there were more jews in Jerusalem than any other single demographic group.

Do you need more?

Jews all over the world, for 4000 years, every passover say "next year in Jerusalem". Not next year in Berlin.

417 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:33:25pm

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Very well stated...

418 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:33:38pm

re: #412 Slumbering Behemoth

Especially then. You didn't think I was really hung like that, did you? That's just extra shadow.

good lord, how quickly things can sink into the marsh

419 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:33:43pm

re: #411 jamesfirecat

So by your logic it'd be fair to say

"Do you realize that when you're talking about how we need to limit abortion you're paraphrasing Hitler?"

I don't debate the merits of what Hitler said anymore than I debate the merits of what Ahmadinejad says. They both represent evil. What you said is exactly what Ahmadinejad said regarding Israel.

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:33:53pm

re: #367 PT Barnum

Doesn't mean it wasn't batshit insane...:)

Just kind of dumb.

421 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:34:43pm

re: #419 Bagua

I don't debate the merits of what Hitler said anymore than I debate the merits of what Ahmadinejad says. They both represent evil. What you said is exactly what Ahmadinejad said regarding Israel.

I'm pretty sure that Ahmadinejad has said much more inflamatory things regarding Israel than asking why it isn't in Germany.

422 Mr. Crankypants  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:34:54pm

re: #420 SanFranciscoZionist

Just kind of dumb.

Stupid becomes insane in my book when it means putting the fate of several million people in the possible hands of one bubble headed numbskull like Palin.

423 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:35:20pm

re: #419 Bagua

I don't debate the merits of what Hitler said anymore than I debate the merits of what Ahmadinejad says. They both represent evil. What you said is exactly what Ahmadinejad said regarding Israel.

Notice how he tried to kick up dust in that post?

424 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:35:36pm

re: #401 darthstar

The alternative is to have them say, "I voted against this project which will bring X jobs to our community, but apparently I was wrong in doing so." and not let them take credit for it.

No, the alternative is to say that X jobs are not worth Y cost, but since i lost that vote, i'm sure as hell going to try my best to bring X jobs here rather than let them go to another state.

Of course the stimulus is creating jobs. Anyone want to do the math on how much we're paying per job created?

Hating the answer to that question does not obligate one to cede jobs, no matter how expensive they were, to one's neighbors.

425 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:36:07pm

re: #371 darthstar

Here's some good news that will make McCain's head explode:

The army got one of its Arabic translators - Dan Choi - back

Shortly after 9/11, a high school friend of my cousins' got his first post-college job--as an Arabic translator for the FBI.

He'd been a business major. His Arabic was family Arabic--talking to Grandma Arabic. They were desperate. He figured his country needed him, but kept warning them that his Arabic wasn't really all that great.

We NEED translators.

426 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:36:18pm

re: #421 jamesfirecat

I'm pretty sure that Ahmadinejad has said much more inflamatory things regarding Israel than asking why it isn't in Germany.

Pretty sure? What you quoted is one of Ahmadinejad's main arguments to legitimise Israels very existence, there are few things he said that are more offensive or outrageous.

427 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:36:37pm

re: #399 Bagua

You are saying that Ahmadinejad is correct?

I'm saying its a fair question to ask and that the people on this board have provided me with several excellent and persuasive reasons why Israel is where it is.

428 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:36:52pm

re: #407 torrentprime

Doesn't that mean admitting the stimulus would help their state?

So that stimulus Porkulus bill which would "bankrupt the country", "not create one new job", "violate the Constitution" and "bring socialism to America" should, after it passes, be embraced and funds taken - with credit going to the Rep - because s/he believes his/her own state can do the above things better than the other states. Logical.

Alternative: majority party takes money from taxpayers in minority party's states and redistributes it amongst majority party's states.

logical.

429 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:37:14pm

re: #378 webevintage

How dare they not ask his permission first...
/

Because he doesn't speak Arabic either.

/Neither do I, although I once took a short class.

430 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:37:20pm

re: #427 jamesfirecat

I'm saying its a fair question to ask and that the people on this board have provided me with several excellent and persuasive reasons why Israel is where it is.

Have you Googled the Balfour Agreement?

431 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:37:33pm

re: #379 ryannon

And they was all the time buggering each other.

Practical reasons for that.

432 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:37:36pm

re: #411 jamesfirecat

So by your logic it'd be fair to say

"Do you realize that when you're talking about how we need to limit abortion you're paraphrasing Hitler?"

Not even the same thing. If you paraphrased Hitler saying something that is completely not true (and anti semetic) then it would be the same thing.

433 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:38:40pm

re: #427 jamesfirecat

I'm saying its a fair question to ask and that the people on this board have provided me with several excellent and persuasive reasons why Israel is where it is.

Someone above mentioned Herzl. Google him, too.

434 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:38:50pm

re: #426 Bagua

Pretty sure? What you quoted is one of Ahmadinejad's main arguments to legitimise Israels very existence, there are few things he said that are more offensive or outrageous.

delegitimize .... but ya! Don't stop.

435 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:40:21pm

re: #426 Bagua

Pretty sure? What you quoted is one of Ahmadinejad's main arguments to legitimise Israels very existence, there are few things he said that are more offensive or outrageous.


Can I introduce you to something called "inflection" and "context"?

I think there's a difference between me asking a question about why Israel is where it is as a request for information, and Ahmadinejad asking it as a way to try and undermine Israel's right to be where it is.

Sort of the same way there's a difference between someone holding a sign that says "abortion is murder" or feels that way and thus wants to change the law means by using that phrase, and what Scott Roder means when he says "abortion is murder" see how two how two people can say the same thing and yet what they mean by them is vastly different?

436 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:40:32pm

re: #418 cliffster

good lord, how quickly things can sink into the marsh

In bed?

437 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:41:06pm

re: #427 jamesfirecat

I'm saying its a fair question to ask and that the people on this board have provided me with several excellent and persuasive reasons why Israel is where it is.

I don't think that Ahmadinejad's questioning of Israel's existence is a "fair question" at all, they are the words of evil, period.

438 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:41:11pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

Alternative: majority party takes money from taxpayers in minority party's states and redistributes it amongst majority party's states.

logical.

Has the conspiracy theory bug gotten so strong that right-wingers now believe that stimulus money only came from red state taxpayers? Please tell me they're not this far gone.

439 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:42:07pm

re: #435 jamesfirecat

Have you Googled Balfour Agreement and Herzl yet?

440 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:42:15pm

re: #384 jamesfirecat

what I've heard so far the main thrust of the argument seems to be that this particular location in the middle east is where the Jews wanted to set up shop which is why we let them do it.

Did you register what I said about the extant Jewish community?

Also, please define 'we'?

441 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:42:19pm

re: #434 Buck

delegitimize ... but ya! Don't stop.

Legitimise. The UK variant of many words use an s in place of zed. ;)

442 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:42:35pm

re: #437 Bagua

I don't think that Ahmadinejad's questioning of Israel's existence is a "fair question" at all, they are the words of evil, period.

And it seems to me that anybody with any knowledge or understanding of these things at all would understand why it's not a fair question.

I think James has had people respond to him very civilly, all things considered.

Sure would be nice if in the future he gave others the same courtesy.

443 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:43:19pm

re: #437 Bagua

I don't think that Ahmadinejad's questioning of Israel's existence is a "fair question" at all, they are the words of evil, period.

Let me raise another idea.

I meant it as an actual question and I wanted an answer and am accepting this answer.

Something tells me that Ahmadinejad mean it as a rhetorical question with the implications of "there is no good reason for them to be here, they don't belong here, we have a right to kick them out...." And so on and so forth.

444 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:43:31pm

re: #406 PT Barnum

Unfortunately, they were of Mo'Nique

A fine figure of a woman.

Besides, she's doing a weight-loss project.

445 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:43:33pm

re: #442 reine.de.tout

And it seems to me that anybody with any knowledge or understanding of these things at all would understand why it's not a fair question.

I think James has had people respond to him very civilly, all things considered.

Sure would be nice if in the future he gave others the same courtesy.

Agreed.

446 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:43:39pm

Wow. Finally got to a place where I could watch the whole video.

I think getting Palin and Gellar together would be like the Keymaster and the Gatekeeper preparing for the coming of Zuul.

447 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:44:10pm

re: #424 Aceofwhat?


Of course the stimulus is creating jobs.

And do you believe this is a commonly-held belief on the right?

And what you are saying is that it's perfectly logical to queue up for the distribution of funds from an "un-America, socialist, economy destroying" bill, because, after all, everyone ought to get theirs. Any cognitive dissonance observed here is entirely the fault of the Left.

/

448 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:45:13pm

re: #438 torrentprime

Has the conspiracy theory bug gotten so strong that right-wingers now believe that stimulus money only came from red state taxpayers? Please tell me they're not this far gone.

You are not following the argument correctly. Let me try again.

You said...

"bill which would "bankrupt the country", "not create one new job", "violate the Constitution" and "bring socialism to America" should, after it passes, be embraced and funds taken - with credit going to the Rep - because s/he believes his/her own state can do the above things better than the other states."

To which i am attempting to reply that the alternative is even dimmer.

The majority passes a stimulus bill. Taxpayers from all 50 states are on the hook. There are now two options:

1. The senators who voted against attempt to partake of the funds.
2. The senators who voted against abstain from the funds.

In option #2, the effective result is that 50 states are subsidizing only those districts with a "yes stimulus" vote. That is the least logical outcome that I can imagine.

Clearer?

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:45:23pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

Stupid becomes insane in my book when it means putting the fate of several million people in the possible hands of one bubble headed numbskull like Palin.

I'm sort of tempted to agree, but heck, the voters prevailed. Even if they couldn't say 'vote' in English.

///

450 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:47:18pm

re: #447 torrentprime

And do you believe this is a commonly-held belief on the right?

And what you are saying is that it's perfectly logical to queue up for the distribution of funds from an "un-America, socialist, economy destroying" bill, because, after all, everyone ought to get theirs. Any cognitive dissonance observed here is entirely the fault of the Left.

/

voting against a spending bill that will draw from taxpayers of every state does not allow a logical result. you either illogically turn around and apply for said funds, or even less logically, allow taxes to be drained from your constituents without any attempt to regain them.

stop looking for logical outcomes where none exist.

451 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:47:37pm

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

To which i am attempting to reply that the alternative is even dimmer.

The majority passes a stimulus bill. Taxpayers from all 50 states are on the hook. There are now two options:

1. The senators who voted against attempt to partake of the funds.
2. The senators who voted against abstain from the funds.

In option #2, the effective result is that 50 states are subsidizing only those districts with a "yes stimulus" vote. That is the least logical outcome that I can imagine.

Clearer?

So a Rep should ensure that his/her district helps partake in the financial rape of our grandchildren's future, because... otherwise it wouldn't be fair. Gotcha.

452 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:48:28pm

re: #441 Bagua

Legitimise. The UK variant of many words use an s in place of zed. ;)

I was adding the de part,,,, he was using that argument to de legitimise. To make less than bone fide.

453 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:48:37pm

re: #427 jamesfirecat

I'm saying its a fair question to ask and that the people on this board have provided me with several excellent and persuasive reasons why Israel is where it is.

The British handed out pieces of their former empire and the conquered Turkish empire like cupcakes at a tea party, but nobody ever asks why the caravan-robbing gang of Saud should have their very own kingdom on the Arabian peninsula, or why the Hashemite tribe should have a consolation-prize kingdom on 80% of the Mandate for Palestine.

454 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:48:53pm

re: #443 jamesfirecat

Let me raise another idea.

I meant it as an actual question and I wanted an answer and am accepting this answer.

Something tells me that Ahmadinejad mean it as a rhetorical question with the implications of "there is no good reason for them to be here, they don't belong here, we have a right to kick them out..." And so on and so forth.

Yes, those are Ahmadinejad's obvious inferences, you may not share his views (one hopes) but you should understand the idea and implication behind the idea you proposed.

Are you unaware that there is an international movement that is trying to undermine the legitimacy of Israel's very existence with exactly that 'question'? That several wars with the intention of the destruction of Israel have be waged by leaders who shared exactly that 'question'?

455 ryannon  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:49:52pm

re: #431 SanFranciscoZionist

Practical reasons for that.

Those elementary school sex-ed classes I read about in Atlas Mugged?

456 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:50:04pm

re: #451 torrentprime

So a Rep should ensure that his/her district helps partake in the financial rape of our grandchildren's future, because... otherwise it wouldn't be fair. Gotcha.

The district has already been raped. You have two options left. One = do nothing. Two = attempt to regain some of what you wish had never been taken. I am excited to hear why option one is more defensible than option two. Enlighten me.

457 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:50:32pm

re: #452 Buck

I was adding the de part,,, he was using that argument to de legitimise. To make less than bone fide.

Ooops, you are the better pedant, I did indeed mean 'delegitimise' in that context.

*hangs head in shame.*

458 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:51:26pm

re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist

Did you register what I said about the extant Jewish community?

Also, please define 'we'?


I was using "we' in the sense of America, re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist

Did you register what I said about the extant Jewish community?

Also, please define 'we'?


I get the extant Jewish community thing now.

Because its the Jewish holy land Jews like to go there, and it also seems like there was a flood of them to what became Israel whenever things got "extremely unfriendly" for Jews in Europe.

This in turn meant that there were already a lot of Jews there by the end of WW2.

I was using "we" to refer to America which I realize is wrong and I should have been using "we" to refer to the UN since they were the ones who agreed to split up what used to be Palestine, into two sections one Jewish one Arab.

Then the Arab section attacked the Jewish section which beat them up, and that's how Israel came to be.

Class dismissed?

459 prairiefire  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:52:08pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

Everybody, please go ahead and give Mo'nique the Oscar. And I say this based on 1-2 minutes clip of the film "Precious". I don't think I will ever see the whole thing ~~such a brutally honest film.

460 Petero1818  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:52:08pm

re: #453 Alouette

SSSHHHHH. don't go blabbing that around.
Signed
King Hussein

461 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:53:10pm

re: #458 jamesfirecat

I get the extant Jewish community thing now.

Because its the Jewish holy land Jews like to go there, and it also seems like there was a flood of them to what became Israel whenever things got "extremely unfriendly" for Jews in Europe.

This in turn meant that there were already a lot of Jews there by the end of WW2.

I was using "we" to refer to America which I realize is wrong and I should have been using "we" to refer to the UN since they were the ones who agreed to split up what used to be Palestine, into two sections one Jewish one Arab.

Then the Arab section attacked the Jewish section which beat them up, and that's how Israel came to be.

Class dismissed?

No. The UN had NOTHING to do with the Balfour Agreement nor with Herzl.

462 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:53:47pm

re: #454 Bagua

Yes, those are Ahmadinejad's obvious inferences, you may not share his views (one hopes) but you should understand the idea and implication behind the idea you proposed.

Are you unaware that there is an international movement that is trying to undermine the legitimacy of Israel's very existence with exactly that 'question'? That several wars with the intention of the destruction of Israel have be waged by leaders who shared exactly that 'question'?

I was at the time unaware that I was "proposing" any idea, I was only trying to ask for a history lesson which the good people at LGF have been kind enough to provide me with.

463 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:56:36pm

re: #458 jamesfirecat


Then the Arab section attacked the Jewish section which beat them up, and that's how Israel came to be.

Move "Israel came to be" up before the war of 48, and then change 'attacked' to 'declared war' and 'beat them up' to 'successfully defended herself'.

However you still need to read the given assignments.

464 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:57:51pm

re: #458 jamesfirecat

I get the extant Jewish community thing now.

Because its the Jewish holy land Jews like to go there, and it also seems like there was a flood of them to what became Israel whenever things got "extremely unfriendly" for Jews in Europe.

This in turn meant that there were already a lot of Jews there by the end of WW2.

I was using "we" to refer to America which I realize is wrong and I should have been using "we" to refer to the UN since they were the ones who agreed to split up what used to be Palestine, into two sections one Jewish one Arab.

Then the Arab section attacked the Jewish section which beat them up, and that's how Israel came to be.

Class dismissed?

Not dismissed. There was continuous Jewish habitation of the land of Israel that goes back into antiquity. The population was often reduced through warfare, expulsions and massacres, but the land of Israel has had continuous Jewish habitation up until the present time.

The Jews didn't go there because they "like to go there", they went home.

465 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:59:05pm

re: #462 jamesfirecat

I was at the time unaware that I was "proposing" any idea, I was only trying to ask for a history lesson which the good people at LGF have been kind enough to provide me with.

I believe you, now you know.

466 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:59:29pm

re: #464 Bagua

Not dismissed. There was continuous Jewish habitation of the land of Israel that goes back into antiquity. The population was often reduced through warfare, expulsions and massacres, but the land of Israel has had continuous Jewish habitation up until the present time.

The Jews didn't go there because they "like to go there", they went home.

You are on fire! I tried to tell him... #416

467 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:59:33pm

re: #461 MandyManners

No. The UN had NOTHING to do with the Balfour Agreement nor with Herzl.

Okay to go even further back (and doing more web research)

Back before the UN was involved, in 1917 Britain declared that it wanted to make Palestine into the home for the Jewish nation, and they set about helping Jews immigrate there, which the Jews where glad to do because it was their religious homeland....

468 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:00:17pm

re: #455 ryannon

Those elementary school sex-ed classes I read about in Atlas Mugged?

The best theory I've heard has to do with the need to keep birth rates low in subsistence-farming ancient Greece.

469 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:00:24pm

re: #467 jamesfirecat

Okay to go even further back (and doing more web research)

Back before the UN was involved, in 1917 Britain declared that it wanted to make Palestine into the home for the Jewish nation, and they set about helping Jews immigrate there, which the Jews where glad to do because it was their religious homeland...

Go back to Herzl. Jews didn't need Balfour's help.

470 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:00:37pm

re: #465 Bagua

I believe you, now you know.

And knowing is half the battle.....

471 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:01:25pm

re: #467 jamesfirecat

Okay to go even further back (and doing more web research)

Back before the UN was involved, in 1917 Britain declared that it wanted to make Palestine into the home for the Jewish nation, and they set about helping Jews immigrate there, which the Jews where glad to do because it was their religious homeland...

To repeat what others have said, there already were Jews in the land.

472 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:01:26pm

re: #466 Buck

You are on fire! I tried to tell him... #416

Don't tell the landlord, I've been warned about having a sly smoke here before.

473 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:02:06pm

re: #470 jamesfirecat

And knowing is half the battle...

and knowledge is power!

474 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:02:40pm

re: #470 jamesfirecat

And knowing is half the battle...

Agreed, that is why we are always learning, always exchanging ideas here.

475 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:04:14pm

re: #456 Aceofwhat?

The district has already been raped. You have two options left. One = do nothing. Two = attempt to regain some of what you wish had never been taken. I am excited to hear why option one is more defensible than option two. Enlighten me.

I don't want to sink this any lower, but... consistency? values? You're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) it's perfectly logical and admirable to assist in the destruction of one's country and the rape of our children because everyone is hungry when the trough comes by. You are ignoring completely what they claimed the bill would do. If President Liberal Hatesamerica signed a deal selling army bases and technology to the Chinese, you're saying it would make sense for those opposed to the bill by vote to get in line to sell out their local military, because even though they believe it will harm their country, there's money to be made for the locals.

And if one believes the stimulus is a bad idea, why would you help spread the bad? It's not like all the money was going to be spent at once, so you are definitely creating a false choice: "Take all the money you can get now or do nothing."

Your focus on the (false) choice has prevented you from sharing your opinions on whether or not it's logically consistent.

476 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:06:32pm

One of my favorite summaries

Israel and the Middle East

Jamesfirecat, you could do worse than to memorize it.

I didn't write it, but I saved it for future use...

“Yet it is precisely this historic dismissal of the Other and the legitimacy of its national cause that stands at the root of Palestinian statelessness and dispersal.” -- Efraim Karsh

477 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:09:05pm

re: #469 MandyManners

Go back to Herzl. Jews didn't need Balfour's help.

Okay Jewish guy born in Austrian Empire,

After the Dreyfus Affair (a name I can't read without wrongly chuckling because it makes me think of the Pink Panther) during which Jews were falsely accused of spying for Germany, Herzl decided that after seeing that evidently antisemitism was more or less at the time ingrained in European politics, an eternal pile of powder just waiting for a match to set it off, decided that the only safe thing to do was for the Jews to go somewhere else.

Well it was either the Dreyfus Affair or the rise to power of Karl Lueger in Vienna in 1895, but I'm only just getting into the topic via wikipedia so lets move on...

Either way after that he devoted his life to trying to get the heads of Europe and the Middle East to agree to set aside what was then called Palestine though with varying degrees of success...

I have that about right?

478 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:10:54pm

re: #464 Bagua

Not dismissed. There was continuous Jewish habitation of the land of Israel that goes back into antiquity. The population was often reduced through warfare, expulsions and massacres, but the land of Israel has had continuous Jewish habitation up until the present time.

The Jews didn't go there because they "like to go there", they went home.

Thank you!! I tried in vain to explain this last night. I forgot who with but it wouldn't take. Someone was arguing with me that just because you've lived in the land for 3800 years, doesn't mean it's yours and then tried to tell me that the Arabs were really the Philistines and the Canaanites!!

The legacy of Arafat is all lies and distortions and it makes me want to hit something.

479 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:13:26pm

re: #478 marjoriemoon

Thank you!! I tried in vain to explain this last night. I forgot who with but it wouldn't take. Someone was arguing with me that just because you've lived in the land for 3800 years, doesn't mean it's yours and then tried to tell me that the Arabs were really the Philistines and the Canaanites!!

The legacy of Arafat is all lies and distortions and it makes me want to hit something.

That didn't happen here did it?

480 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:14:09pm

re: #477 jamesfirecat

Okay Jewish guy born in Austrian Empire,

After the Dreyfus Affair (a name I can't read without wrongly chuckling because it makes me think of the Pink Panther) during which Jews were falsely accused of spying for Germany, Herzl decided that after seeing that evidently antisemitism was more or less at the time ingrained in European politics, an eternal pile of powder just waiting for a match to set it off, decided that the only safe thing to do was for the Jews to go somewhere else.

Well it was either the Dreyfus Affair or the rise to power of Karl Lueger in Vienna in 1895, but I'm only just getting into the topic via wikipedia so lets move on...

Either way after that he devoted his life to trying to get the heads of Europe and the Middle East to agree to set aside what was then called Palestine though with varying degrees of success...

I have that about right?

Yes. But, remember that there were Jews in Jerusalem long before Herzl was born.

481 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:14:37pm

re: #477 jamesfirecat

Okay Jewish guy born in Austrian Empire,

After the Dreyfus Affair (a name I can't read without wrongly chuckling because it makes me think of the Pink Panther) during which Jews were falsely accused of spying for Germany, Herzl decided that after seeing that evidently antisemitism was more or less at the time ingrained in European politics, an eternal pile of powder just waiting for a match to set it off, decided that the only safe thing to do was for the Jews to go somewhere else.

Well it was either the Dreyfus Affair or the rise to power of Karl Lueger in Vienna in 1895, but I'm only just getting into the topic via wikipedia so lets move on...

Either way after that he devoted his life to trying to get the heads of Europe and the Middle East to agree to set aside what was then called Palestine though with varying degrees of success...

I have that about right?

James. You want a good site for Jewish History, read here. The Wiki isn't bad, but it doesn't give the whole flavor which as you know, can fill volumes.

[Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

482 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:15:07pm

re: #475 torrentprime


And if one believes the stimulus is a bad idea, why would you help spread the bad? It's not like all the money was going to be spent at once, so you are definitely creating a false choice: "Take all the money you can get now or do nothing."

Your focus on the (false) choice has prevented you from sharing your opinions on whether or not it's logically consistent.

Perhaps this is where we're missing something. One cannot "spread the bad". The bill has been passed, right? The money will be spent whether or not you try to get back your share, right? The bad = setting the money aside. Once that's in the past, the bad has been spread. Not sure how further spreading occurs post-bill.

I make no accusations that democrats who were rabidly anti-war are being inconsistent when they lobby to keep military bases in their state. What do you think about that position?

483 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:15:10pm

re: #479 Buck

That didn't happen here did it?

I saw some huge back and forth that seemed Israel related on the thread where we were arguing about why we should make pot legal/make nicotine illegal.

484 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:15:15pm

re: #478 marjoriemoon

Thank you!! I tried in vain to explain this last night. I forgot who with but it wouldn't take. Someone was arguing with me that just because you've lived in the land for 3800 years, doesn't mean it's yours and then tried to tell me that the Arabs were really the Philistines and the Canaanites!!

The legacy of Arafat is all lies and distortions and it makes me want to hit something.

Exactly, there is nothing worse than rewriting history to serve a bigoted agenda. While the so called 'palastinians' may be many things, what they are not is the descendents of Canaanites and Philistines. These fabrications are an evil that is being perpetrated on the Jewish people. One notes that the 'palistinians' themselves are victimised by these fabrications as it causes them to live in a fantasy world.

485 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:15:20pm

re: #479 Buck

That didn't happen here did it?

Lots of people running around the U.S. who believe this bullshit yes.

Or are you talking about the native americans.

486 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:16:33pm

re: #485 marjoriemoon

Lots of people running around the U.S. who believe this bullshit yes.

Or are you talking about the native americans.

No No, I meant on LGF.... the discussion... it didn't happen on LGF...

487 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:18:47pm

re: #484 Bagua

Exactly, there is nothing worse than rewriting history to serve a bigoted agenda. While the so called 'palastinians' may be many things, what they are not is the descendents of Canaanites and Philistines. These fabrications are an evil that is being perpetrated on the Jewish people. One notes that the 'palistinians' themselves are victimised by these fabrications as it causes them to live in a fantasy world.

What's even more bizarre is that they never even started claiming that bullshit until maybe the 70's or 80s. It's been scientifically discredited. They don't have the DNA.

I have to find this article in a sec, but all Ashkenazi Jews can be traced back to the DNA of three women. They don't know who they were of course I'm supposing Sarah is one. I have to find the timeline.

488 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:19:40pm

And don't forget, Chalres - Pam is Robert Spencer's definition of a "good person".

489 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:19:41pm

re: #486 Buck

No No, I meant on LGF... the discussion... it didn't happen on LGF...

Oh yes, last night... between the marjiuana smoking and killer aspirin discussion :p

490 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:19:47pm

re: #481 marjoriemoon

James. You want a good site for Jewish History, read here. The Wiki isn't bad, but it doesn't give the whole flavor which as you know, can fill volumes.

[Link: www.palestinefacts.org...]

I grasp that Jews have lived in Jerusalem for a long time. Now I'm going to prepare to tank my karma yet again, and ask a question for my own edification that I doubt many people will like but I can't help but wonder about.


In some ways reading about Herzl on wikipedia (which I know is far from the best source) I couldn't help but wonder could his views be comparable to an African American's in the 50's or so who might feel like they could never get a fair shake in America and so they needed to go back to their homeland.

I'm not trying to infer anything by this I'm just a computer programmer so my mind automatically tends to try and establish patterns, even when those patterns don't exist or are flawed/incorrect...

491 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:20:42pm

re: #487 marjoriemoon

What's even more bizarre is that they never even started claiming that bullshit until maybe the 70's or 80s. It's been scientifically discredited. They don't have the DNA.

I have to find this article in a sec, but all Ashkenazi Jews can be traced back to the DNA of three women. They don't know who they were of course I'm supposing Sarah is one. I have to find the timeline.

I am fascinated with the Y-chromosomal Aaron. Cause I have it.

492 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:21:12pm

re: #100 EmmmieG

The only countries that have not been guilty of antisemitism in part or in whole are those that have had no association with Jews. (China, for example, which historically had an anti-everyone else bias, but didn't specifically target Jews.)

Personal opinion--jealousy. You have some wandering, landless people, not in power, kept held back by numerous laws, and they still manage to succeed. That just isn't "fair."*

*fair here, being the teenager's fair, which means everything goes my way regardless of my behavior

I would say both jealousy and power tripping. It was easy to target Jews because they were shut out of both the Government and the military, and hence had no way of fighting back. When you can scapegoat someone else for your troubles, you do so because it's easier than facing the real causes. When you can scapegoat someone else, and attack them with no consequence to yourself, the ugly side of human nature comes out big time.

493 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:22:05pm

re: #489 marjoriemoon

Oh yes, last night... between the marjiuana smoking and killer aspirin discussion :p

Damn... I was distracted. I would have tried to help.

494 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:24:01pm

re: #487 marjoriemoon

What's even more bizarre is that they never even started claiming that bullshit until maybe the 70's or 80s. It's been scientifically discredited. They don't have the DNA.

I have to find this article in a sec, but all Ashkenazi Jews can be traced back to the DNA of three women. They don't know who they were of course I'm supposing Sarah is one. I have to find the timeline.

Ok, not back so far, and it was 4 women. I was close :) About 2000 years ago.

Mike Hammer, who does similar research at the University of Arizona, said he found the work tracing back to just four ancestors “quite plausible ... I think they’ve done a really good job of tackling this question.”

But he said it’s not clear the women lived in Europe.

“They may have existed in the Near East,” Hammer said. “We don’t know exactly where the four women were, but their descendants left a legacy in the population today, whereas ... other women’s descendants did not.”

495 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:24:16pm

re: #490 jamesfirecat

I grasp that Jews have lived in Jerusalem for a long time. Now I'm going to prepare to tank my karma yet again, and ask a question for my own edification that I doubt many people will like but I can't help but wonder about.

In some ways reading about Herzl on wikipedia (which I know is far from the best source) I couldn't help but wonder could his views be comparable to an African American's in the 50's or so who might feel like they could never get a fair shake in America and so they needed to go back to their homeland.

I'm not trying to infer anything by this I'm just a computer programmer so my mind automatically tends to try and establish patterns, even when those patterns don't exist or are flawed/incorrect...

The difference is that Jews maintained their culture, language, and religion.

In Israel, and in the Diaspora.

496 reine.de.tout  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:24:53pm

re: #490 jamesfirecat

I grasp that Jews have lived in Jerusalem for a long time. Now I'm going to prepare to tank my karma yet again, and ask a question for my own edification that I doubt many people will like but I can't help but wonder about.

In some ways reading about Herzl on wikipedia (which I know is far from the best source) I couldn't help but wonder could his views be comparable to an African American's in the 50's or so who might feel like they could never get a fair shake in America and so they needed to go back to their homeland.

I'm not trying to infer anything by this I'm just a computer programmer so my mind automatically tends to try and establish patterns, even when those patterns don't exist or are flawed/incorrect...

James - I don't want to try to answer your question, because I can't.

But it's been my experience here that a question asked in good faith will not be dinged down.

However - you might get dinged down if you fail to extend to people the same courtesies that have been extended to you.

Just sayin'.
I hope someone more knowledgeable than I can come answer your question. I understand about trying to find those patterns . . .

497 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:26:21pm

re: #496 reine.de.tout

James - I don't want to try to answer your question, because I can't.

But it's been my experience here that a question asked in good faith will not be dinged down.

However - you might get dinged down if you fail to extend to people the same courtesies that have been extended to you.

Just sayin'.
I hope someone more knowledgeable than I can come answer your question. I understand about trying to find those patterns . . .

I think I managed to come out karmically ahead on this thread thanks to my "Zing" about how crazy Pamela Geller was to say that the left "all marched in Lock step".

498 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:29:03pm

re: #490 jamesfirecat

I grasp that Jews have lived in Jerusalem for a long time. Now I'm going to prepare to tank my karma yet again, and ask a question for my own edification that I doubt many people will like but I can't help but wonder about.

In some ways reading about Herzl on wikipedia (which I know is far from the best source) I couldn't help but wonder could his views be comparable to an African American's in the 50's or so who might feel like they could never get a fair shake in America and so they needed to go back to their homeland.

I'm not trying to infer anything by this I'm just a computer programmer so my mind automatically tends to try and establish patterns, even when those patterns don't exist or are flawed/incorrect...

Part of what helped the Jews was having a written history that goes back a very long way. I think it's one of the reasons for our survival. You see the connection. It's written right there (that's me pointing to paper). Unchanged for 1000s of years and easy to go back to, ponder, discuss etc. The Blacks didn't really have this, nor the Native Americans. Actually the Cherokee had a written language, but I don't know when it was first written down. Sequoya was the first to create an alphabet. (1700s? I think).

499 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:29:33pm

re: #493 Buck

Damn... I was distracted. I would have tried to help.

Bob Levin, I believe his name is, WAS AWESOME!!!

500 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:30:56pm

re: #491 Buck

I am fascinated with the Y-chromosomal Aaron. Cause I have it.

No way!!! You a Kohaine?

501 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:31:11pm

Pam Spencer thinks it is un-American to ask for help.

502 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:31:14pm

re: #487 marjoriemoon

What's even more bizarre is that they never even started claiming that bullshit until maybe the 70's or 80s. It's been scientifically discredited. They don't have the DNA.

I have to find this article in a sec, but all Ashkenazi Jews can be traced back to the DNA of three women. They don't know who they were of course I'm supposing Sarah is one. I have to find the timeline.

At present, the state of using DNA to establish ancient heritage is quite speculative. It is a key fascination of the Blut und Boden types. However, It has little relevance to the Jewish people, in my opinion, because while gemology is important in determinations of membership, it is also true that converts have at least an equal status as those born to a Jewish mother.

Over the many thousands of years there have been many converts, as witness the various racial components of the current Jewish population which extends from Black to white and every shade in between.

503 BunnyThief  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:33:31pm

re: #18 Charles

The term "teabaggers" was started by the tea partiers themselves.

With all due respect, Obama supporters first used the terms "clean and articulate," "Magic Negro," "light-skinned" and "no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one."

Does that make those comments fair game for Obama critics?

The vast majority of tea partiers don't care for the crude sexual innuendo of "teabaggers." Common decency, as well as "taking the high road," would indicate eschewing them.

(Sorry for coming to this conversation so late; just got out of work.)

504 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:38:28pm

re: #190 marjoriemoon

The Jews never asked for special treatments. They wanted to dress they way they wanted, pray the way they wanted and speak their own language. Why is that "asking for special treatment?" To be left alone to be themselves? For sure, they were different, but they could have been part of society and still different. We do it in the U.S. all the time (Little Italy, Chinatown, etc.).

Agreed. All too often, the call for "integration" can be used as code for demanding assimilation. While I think there are certain values that need to be non-negotiable in a liberal democracy such as the rule of law, respect for the democratic process and respect for human rights of others (including women's rights), there are many other areas where reasonable people can disagree. Things like who you pray to, how you dress and what language you speak are indivdual decisions, and not the business of others.

505 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:40:07pm

The faux outrage and fake propriety regarding the word "teabagger" as applied to people in the Tea Party is silly and insincere. And tiresome.

506 Manfred the Wonder Dog  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:43:13pm

Well... that video was a real four-way hen party. Not exactly point/counterpoint, but a couple of them were getting close to calling someone an "ignorant slut" a la Jane Curtin and Bill Murray.

507 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:44:56pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Jews expelled from Spain flooded into the Ottoman countries. The sultan at the time of the Expulsion is said to have commented scornfully that Ferdinand and Isabella were impoverishing their own country to the benefit of his.

Heh. Reminds me of an barb one of our former prime ministers made about Kiwis flooding to Australia.

"Excellent! That'll raise the average IQ in both countries."

508 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:49:53pm

re: #503 BunnyThief

With all due respect, Obama supporters first used the terms "clean and articulate," "Magic Negro," "light-skinned" and "no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one."

Does that make those comments fair game for Obama critics?

The vast majority of tea partiers don't care for the crude sexual innuendo of "teabaggers." Common decency, as well as "taking the high road," would indicate eschewing them.

(Sorry for coming to this conversation so late; just got out of work.)

re: #496 reine.de.tout

James - I don't want to try to answer your question, because I can't.

Can I have some proof that Obama suporters started using the phrase "Magic Negro"?

509 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:52:27pm

re: #247 Aceofwhat?

And Biblical prophesy relies on no such thing. A few may claim it does. The difference between those two sentences could span parsecs.

(insert comment here about parsecs not being a unit of distance...)

"She's the only ship that's made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs..."

510 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:52:58pm

re: #503 BunnyThief

With all due respect, Obama supporters first used the terms "clean and articulate," "Magic Negro," "light-skinned" and "no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one."

Does that make those comments fair game for Obama critics?

The vast majority of tea partiers don't care for the crude sexual innuendo of "teabaggers." Common decency, as well as "taking the high road," would indicate eschewing them.

(Sorry for coming to this conversation so late; just got out of work.)

Whoops that last one was messed up.

Can I have some proof that Obama supporters started using the phrase "Magic Negro" because I chiefly remember it first coming up as part of that delightful Republican Christmas party CD.

As for " "light-skinned" and "no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one." Those were used in private, while Teabaggers called themselves such things in public.

I've got no defense for that stupid, stupid stupid "complement" that Joe Biden gave him though...

511 Bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:00:00pm

re: #502 Bagua

Pimf: gemology genealogy

512 Manfred the Wonder Dog  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:05:05pm

Bagua- for an interesting discussion of DNA studies applied to Jewish ancestry see chapter 11 of Nicholas Wade's book "Before the Dawn- Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors".

513 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:13:18pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist

We're gonna hit all my pet history peeves before the end of the day, aren't we? Come on, someone, say something about Richard III, I dare ya!

He was mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

(Is that the right Richard? The only one I can pick out with any certainty was the Lionheart.)

514 BunnyThief  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:16:27pm

re: #510 jamesfirecat

Whoops that last one was messed up.

Can I have some proof that Obama supporters started using the phrase "Magic Negro" because I chiefly remember it first coming up as part of that delightful Republican Christmas party CD.

As for " "light-skinned" and "no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one." Those were used in private, while Teabaggers called themselves such things in public.

I've got no defense for that stupid, stupid stupid "complement" that Joe Biden gave him though...

David Ehrenstein, LA Times, March 19, 2007.

Now I've got a challenge for you. You have no problem using the term "teabagging" and "teabagger," sniggering all the while.

Kindly define it. Spell out precisely what the term means to you.

Use precise language. Vagueness and innuendo and implication is for weasels.

If you're OK in using the word, you should be OK in saying precisely what the word means to you.

515 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:21:09pm

re: #325 Varek Raith

Pamela Geller's specialty;

Forgive my geekiness today! :)

Yes, but then she would need either a high intelligence or charisma modifier to beat the DC. I would much rather think of her as a Barbarian Ravager.

516 sagehen  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:23:16pm

re: #490 jamesfirecat


In some ways reading about Herzl on wikipedia (which I know is far from the best source) I couldn't help but wonder could his views be comparable to an African American's in the 50's or so who might feel like they could never get a fair shake in America and so they needed to go back to their homeland.

um... not the 50's, but a generation or two earlier. Look up Marcus Garvey, Liberia, and Pan-African Movement.

517 Vambo  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:26:46pm

I just listened to 4 assholes screaming at each other on a cable talk show. Anyone got an aspirin??

518 Vambo  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:28:56pm

re: #514 BunnyThief


Now I've got a challenge for you. You have no problem using the term "teabagging" and "teabagger," sniggering all the while.

Kindly define it. Spell out precisely what the term means to you.

Use precise language. Vagueness and innuendo and implication is for weasels.

If you're OK in using the word, you should be OK in saying precisely what the word means to you.

I think a teabagger should define it first.

519 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:29:42pm

re: #514 BunnyThief

David Ehrenstein, LA Times, March 19, 2007.

Now I've got a challenge for you. You have no problem using the term "teabagging" and "teabagger," sniggering all the while.

Kindly define it. Spell out precisely what the term means to you.

Use precise language. Vagueness and innuendo and implication is for weasels.

If you're OK in using the word, you should be OK in saying precisely what the word means to you.


I notice that the story you linked me to doesn't quote anyone as calling Barack a Magic Negro. Evidently I was unaware that the Los Angeles Times had become the official spokesperson for the Democrat Party.


As for what teabagging means to me, in the sexual context

"Teabagging is a slang term for the act of a man placing his scrotum in the mouth or on or around the face (including the top of the head) of another person, often in a repeated in-and-out motion" It got that name because in the in and out cycle can be likened to someone dipping a bag of tea in hot water then pulling it out, then dipping it back in again.


Does that make you happy?

520 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:32:41pm

re: #518 Vambo

I think a teabagger should define it first.

Oh I think could do that for just fine, or at least here is my humble shot at it.

"A teabagger is an average American, who is standing up for the ideals upon which America was founded, that when we the people have been taxed too our wits end we have a right to say "NO MORE" to our government, and if they don't listen to our words, that is why the founding fathers had the foresight to include the second amendment so that their sons would not be left helpless in the face of the tyrants who might try to destroy the nation they loved so very much!"

No if you'll excuse me I have a sudden urge to wash my hands, and my modem....

521 Vambo  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:33:28pm

re: #514 BunnyThief

David Ehrenstein, LA Times, March 19, 2007.

"a figure of postmodern folk culture", hahaha. he's describing an archetype. probably not with the same intent as the Republican insider meme, but then IDRGAF.

522 BunnyThief  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:43:48pm

re: #519 jamesfirecat

Bravo, james. I didn't think you'd do it.

But I remember the one time I heard a Tea Partier use the term "teabag Congress," they were referring to sending tea bags (actual little bags of tea leaves) to Congress in a conscious attempt to evoke the spirit of the Boston Tea Party tax protests of the leadup to the Revolutionary War. There was a hint of sniggering at the use of the "naughty" term, but the literalness of the term was unmistakable: actual bags, holding actual tea leaves. Not scrota and odd (and, to me, largely pointless) sex acts.

A few people involved with the movement used it. The vast majority didn't. And very, very few now sincerely adopt the term.

And you didn't see Ehrenstein quoting anyone about the "Magic Negro" because he was acting as an opinion columnist, not a reporter, and believed that he was the first to draw the link between Obama and the term:

s→Opinion
`Magic Negro' returns
March 19, 2007%P%David Ehrenstein, L.A.-based DAVID EHRENSTEIN writes about Hollywood and politics.

AS EVERY CARBON-BASED life form on this planet surely knows, Barack Obama, the junior Democratic senator from Illinois, is running for president. Since making his announcement, there has been no end of commentary about him in all quarters -- musing over his charisma and the prospect he offers of being the first African American to be elected to the White House.
Advertisement
Bork

But it's clear that Obama also is running for an equally important unelected office, in the province of the popular imagination -- the "Magic Negro."

Here's an Obama supporter saying that Obama was trying to be the "Magic Negro." So, if this gentleman is going to use the term, and spell out in detail how it applies, who are we to gainsay his wisdom and reject his term?

No.

I don't use the term. I don't like its application. I don't cheerfully revel in repeating Biden's words or Reid's words, hiding under the juvenile "he said it first!" excuse.

And I won't use "teabagger" for precisely the same reason.

I have very few areas where I can claim to be standing up for class, for decency, for basic respect, for civil discourse, for what's right. This is one of very few.

523 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 3:58:48pm

re: #522 BunnyThief

Bravo, james. I didn't think you'd do it.

But I remember the one time I heard a Tea Partier use the term "teabag Congress," they were referring to sending tea bags (actual little bags of tea leaves) to Congress in a conscious attempt to evoke the spirit of the Boston Tea Party tax protests of the leadup to the Revolutionary War. There was a hint of sniggering at the use of the "naughty" term, but the literalness of the term was unmistakable: actual bags, holding actual tea leaves. Not scrota and odd (and, to me, largely pointless) sex acts.

A few people involved with the movement used it. The vast majority didn't. And very, very few now sincerely adopt the term.

And you didn't see Ehrenstein quoting anyone about the "Magic Negro" because he was acting as an opinion columnist, not a reporter, and believed that he was the first to draw the link between Obama and the term:

s→Opinion
`Magic Negro' returns
March 19, 2007%P%David Ehrenstein, L.A.-based DAVID EHRENSTEIN writes about Hollywood and politics.

AS EVERY CARBON-BASED life form on this planet surely knows, Barack Obama, the junior Democratic senator from Illinois, is running for president. Since making his announcement, there has been no end of commentary about him in all quarters -- musing over his charisma and the prospect he offers of being the first African American to be elected to the White House.
Advertisement
Bork

But it's clear that Obama also is running for an equally important unelected office, in the province of the popular imagination -- the "Magic Negro."

Here's an Obama supporter saying that Obama was trying to be the "Magic Negro." So, if this gentleman is going to use the term, and spell out in detail how it applies, who are we to gainsay his wisdom and reject his term?

No.

I don't use the term. I don't like its application. I don't cheerfully revel in repeating Biden's words or Reid's words, hiding under the juvenile "he said it first!" excuse.

And I won't use "teabagger" for precisely the same reason.

I have very few areas where I can claim to be standing up for class, for decency, for basic respect, for civil discourse, for what's right. This is one of very few.

There's just one small problem with your comparison. "Magic Negro" is a loaded term which also lends itself to suggesting a situation in which a black guy comes along and magically solves everything for our white protagonist. Therefore the term is largely shunned and looked down upon because its racist.

"Tea bagging" on the other hand carries with it no racist connotation, it also carries with it no homosexual or homophobic connotation because its just as easy for a man to tea bag his wife as it is for one gay man to tea bag another.

So I see now way that you can imply that "teabagging" is the equivalent of "magic negro" since only one of those two terms can tap into a painful divide that still lingers in our great nation.

524 BunnyThief  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:09:04pm

re: #523 jamesfirecat

So, in essence, "teabagger" is OK because you like using it, you like that dirty little thrill you get when you get to say a naughty word in public, but "magic negro" is bad because it uses the same term as the United Negro College Fund" and the "Negro League" and has been slurred into a racial epithet?

Barring exceptional circumstances, I prefer to refer to groups by the terms they choose to call themselves. In abortion discussions, I use "pro-life" and "pro-choice."

With the Tea Partiers, the vast, vast majority of them reject the term "teabaggers." You've got a couple of knuckleheads at the very beginning who sniggered about it (much like you do) who you're hiding behind to keep getting your cheap thrills.

I'm calling you on it. I'm pointing out your immaturity and insincerity. And, naturally, you don't like it.

Tough.

525 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:14:08pm

re: #524 BunnyThief

So, in essence, "teabagger" is OK because you like using it, you like that dirty little thrill you get when you get to say a naughty word in public, but "magic negro" is bad because it uses the same term as the United Negro College Fund" and the "Negro League" and has been slurred into a racial epithet?

Barring exceptional circumstances, I prefer to refer to groups by the terms they choose to call themselves. In abortion discussions, I use "pro-life" and "pro-choice."

With the Tea Partiers, the vast, vast majority of them reject the term "teabaggers." You've got a couple of knuckleheads at the very beginning who sniggered about it (much like you do) who you're hiding behind to keep getting your cheap thrills.

I'm calling you on it. I'm pointing out your immaturity and insincerity. And, naturally, you don't like it.

Tough.

The term "Negro" itself is not offensive, or at least not as offensive as the term "Magic Negro"

However allow me to bring up my second argument....

"I will call stop referring to members of the Tea Party as teabaggers should the desire strike me, after I've seen the conservative members of the house and senate go for a month without calling us the "Democrat" instead of the "Democratic party".

By the way you really should try bringing up this argument again in a thread that people are still invested in, you might find a more receptive audience.

526 BunnyThief  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:20:40pm
"I will call stop referring to members of the Tea Party as teabaggers should the desire strike me, after I've seen the conservative members of the house and senate go for a month without calling us the "Democrat" instead of the "Democratic party".

Oh, I C what you're doing here. "I'll stop using this bad term when public officials start misusing grammar."

How exactly is that not a variant of the "tu quoque" fallacy?

And I like how you tie your use of a sexual vulgarism into a deliberate grammatical error -- thanks for admitting that it isn't about any kind of principle for you other than "they say things I don't like, so I'll call them a bad term right back."

I don't let others decide what I consider acceptable for me to do. I make up my own mind about what's right or wrong.

It's called "independence" and "thinking for yourself" and "principle." Give it a try sometime.

If you can, of course.

527 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:23:14pm

re: #502 Bagua

At present, the state of using DNA to establish ancient heritage is quite speculative. It is a key fascination of the Blut und Boden types. However, It has little relevance to the Jewish people, in my opinion, because while gemology is important in determinations of membership, it is also true that converts have at least an equal status as those born to a Jewish mother.

Over the many thousands of years there have been many converts, as witness the various racial components of the current Jewish population which extends from Black to white and every shade in between.

My apologies for being so late. I thought I responded to this! I hope I didn't put it on another thread lol

I didn't mean to imply converts weren't Jews without a DNA connection. You're 100% correct in that. But I find the science fascinating, just like I love all the archeology that proves biblical history.

528 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:40:37pm

re: #526 BunnyThief

Like I said, if it bothers you that much, bring this up in an overnight thread so you can get other people's opinions as I know I'm far from the only one who uses the phrase, in fact Charles uses it pretty liberally.

For now I'm going to consider it a funny way of mocking a group that deserves to be mocked.

Just as we call them "nirthers" some groups haven't earned the right to be taken seriously and the Tea Partiers are right at the top of that list at the moment.

529 BunnyThief  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:43:43pm

re: #528 jamesfirecat

Your insistence on using it says far more about you, james, than it does about them.

Which I find a great time-saver.

530 jamesfirecat  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:46:12pm

re: #529 BunnyThief

Your insistence on using it says far more about you, james, than it does about them.

Which I find a great time-saver.

Well then I guess I'm in good company since Charles uses it also.

Blatant appeal to authority/bandwagon I know...

Still like I said if it bothers you that much, there are plenty of threads that people are still interested in, go take your outrage to the readers instead of hiding your light under a bush!

531 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 4:59:41pm

re: #444 SanFranciscoZionist

A fine figure of a woman.

Besides, she's doing a weight-loss project.

She was hilarious in Beerfest...

532 Dad O' Blondes  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 5:23:46pm

4 lightweights.

Why is this drivel posted at a place like LGF?

.

533 Buck  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 5:53:45pm

re: #500 marjoriemoon

No way!!! You a Kohaine?

Yep, and I have the gene. A friend of mine worked (many years ago) on the gene map project... and tested mine..

534 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 6:00:02pm

re: #523 jamesfirecat

There's just one small problem with your comparison. "Magic Negro" is a loaded term which also lends itself to suggesting a situation in which a black guy comes along and magically solves everything for our white protagonist. Therefore the term is largely shunned and looked down upon because its racist.

Well, there you have it. Spike Lee is a racist.

The implied racism for Barak Obama as a magic negro is that people voted for him because he would free them from their white guilt. Which is a very complex issue not as easily discarded as you make it appear to be.

If we look at Spike Lee's use of it then the very people who voted for Obama because he, himself, would usher in a "post racial" America are, by definition, racist. Though the reality runs the gammut.

And as Ehrenstein makes clear in his blog no one really gets out alive in this debate:

As everyone knows Whites feel no guilt about America’s racist history whatsoever. All they care about is the appearance of politesse — the slimy veneer of “good manners.”

Clearly the Republican party (racist to its very core) is “split” over what to do in the wake of having lost so much political capital. Chip and his ilk want to continue making childish attacks. Others in the party seek to turn chicken shit into chicken salad by claiming Obama is the second coming of Ronald Reagan.

And they may well be right. He’s certainly not a liberal. And as he’s made clear thorugh Warrengate, he’s certainly not MY President.

Because really, in the end, Ehrenstein who started this whole thing opposes President Obama because Ehrenstein doesn't think Obama will serve the Gay Community well (and he hasn't) because Ehrenstien sees himself foremost as a Gay American and only (distantly) secondly as a multiracial man.

Context is everything and far too few people really look into the roots of the words they choose label others with.

Most interestingly some constant commenters on other blogs have begun to relish the label of Teabagger because they see themselves dangling their balls in the prostrate mouths of the liberals that mocked them so much.

Yet another example of be careful what you wish for. Extreme left wing radio hosts made a bunch of snickers using the term...they just might end up regretting it.

535 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 6:05:12pm

re: #517 Vambo

I just listened to 4 assholes screaming at each other on a cable talk show. Anyone got an aspirin??

I observed the same thing...I prescribe a vodka.

536 JRCMYP  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 6:45:06pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Last line is untrue, but as for the rest, rock on. There's an outrageous whitewashing of the Jewish experience in Europe that goes along with the exaggeration of Islam as the root of all anti-Jewish sentiment.

I'm a Medieval and Early Modern European historian. The restrictions and blood libels that persisted into the 19th century were rooted in the early and medieval Catholic Church. But that doesn't mean that there aren't more and older anti-Semitic roots--particularly with the Romans. But my point is that we shouldn't pretend that 19th and 20th century anti-Semitic idiocy popped up all by itself because of some sociopathic individuals or because of "Islam". Heavens. Just not true.

537 The Left  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 6:59:09pm

re: #311 prairiefire

I remember seeing video posted of Pammy where she is drunk, sitting in somebody's bathroom at a party, and going through their medicine cabinet.
Anybody else remember that?

Yep. I saw that. It was one of her vlogs.
Woman definitely has issues. She basically locked herself in her hosts' bathroom at a dinner party with a giant glass of wine and decided it was time to make a video for her blog. Because those were clearly deathless and urgent sentiments she needed to convey.

Not that it wasn't already pathetically clear, but those were the actions of a supreme attention whore.
My personal guess, based on years of Pammy-watching, is that she felt like she wasn't getting enough attention at the party, so this is what she did.
The most incredible part to me is that she publicises these embarrassing moments herself. Much like the video here, she really doesn't seem to be able to see herself as she actually appears to the world. Ish. Yoos.

538 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 7:58:05pm

Still can't make it through the video. I've never liked shout shows.

539 jimbouie  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:10:34am

Since it was 3 shrieking harpies against one, I can see where Geller thought she did all right. She wasn't nearly as nasty as Ronnie Reagan was.

540 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 9:34:55am

re: #539 jimbouie

Since it was 3 shrieking harpies against one, I can see where Geller thought she did all right. She wasn't nearly as nasty as Ronnie Reagan was.

You've got to be kidding. Telling the son of Ronald Reagan he didn't even know his own father isn't nasty?

I'm not surprised that you'd be a fan of Geller, being a hard core climate change denier. These things tend to go together.

541 jimbouie  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 12:12:29pm

I'm hard core? And a fan of Geller? Who knew?

Ronnie Reagan's constant demeaning, snarky comments while Geller was trying to speak deserved what they brought. And no matter whose side you favor, the pile-on was pretty bad.

542 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 12:14:35pm

re: #541 jimbouie

I'm hard core?

Pretty easy to check out your past comments on the subject and verify that.

And a fan of Geller? Who knew?

Ronnie Reagan's constant demeaning, snarky comments while Geller was trying to speak deserved what they brought. And no matter whose side you favor, the pile-on was pretty bad.

Ooohkay.

543 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 12:35:55pm

re: #541 jimbouie

I'm hard core? And a fan of Geller? Who knew?

Ronnie Reagan's constant demeaning, snarky comments while Geller was trying to speak deserved what they brought. And no matter whose side you favor, the pile-on was pretty bad.

Ooooh, someone has fallen under the spell of the artificially enhanced psychoblogger!

544 Sacred Plants  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 12:50:45pm

re: #362 SanFranciscoZionist

Geller has something to say about the Armenian genocide?

Anyone elaborating on the origins of the Holocaust should.

545 jimbouie  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 1:13:20pm

re: #543 wrenchwench

Ooooh, someone has fallen under the spell of the artificially enhanced psychoblogger!

Naw...it's just that I can see both sides, and I'm not into currying favor.

546 jimbouie  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 1:16:48pm

re: #542 Charles

Ooohkay.

I think my past comments have been pretty reasonable...not hard core at all. The last comment I made was one agreeing that I'd been mistaken about a certain video, if I remember right.

547 Republican  Wed, Feb 10, 2010 3:16:54pm

Meghan McCain appears on The View and is blasted for being a tool of the left, while Geller is praised for having less composure on a lower quality show. Crazy.


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